fitz?

Now really — why the upset?

With Zarquawi dead the insurgency is in its last throes.

hurray – got a “0″!
unless that’s an editorial comment….

would that be the last “last throes” or just another last throes?

Tony Snow was asked today by Wolfie about the State Dept memo from Baghdad. The answer? That’s a month old now — things are getting better!

jayt at 4 — I’m going to go with just another last throes for $800, Alex.

Save the Last Throes For Me

ummmm… exactly how many throes are there in Iraq? Did they have throes under Saddam Hussein?

This is at least the 5th last throes.

What ever happened to “turning the corner”? And how can one “stay the course” and turn the corner at the same time?

Why, why, why, why isn’t the incompetence of this one issue alone (Iraq) not splattered all over the news everyday??? Clearly, everyday there is something else that further proves Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are not capable. Unless, of course, the goal is war profiteering for personal gain and special interest gain (their bankrollers).

Too bad Pat Roberts isn’t as good at oversight as he is on putting forth Miss Piggy Rovers talking points.

The temperature in Baghdad right now (7:49pm, local time) is 112ºF … with damn few hours of electricity for air-conditioners (if you can afford one)

We need to throe these guys out in November.

“More details on harsh interrogation techniques being employed”
You’re allowing Bush/media doublespeak to drift into your discourse, Redd. Happens to the best of us.
This should read, IMHO, “torture being employed.” The IHT uses “abuse,” which seems to be the official word of choice nowadays.

Hope markfromireland can chime in on this thread.

rcauthen at 14 — I thought the inanity of the phrase after reading the article would speak for itself. *g*

Pat (Obstructionist) Roberts referred to North Korea as a “theocracy” on the Wolf the Beard show just now. Just when did the secular Communist dictatorships get religion?

-GSD

Can we have some of the folk in DC ‘extraordinarily rendered’ to Iraq? I’m even willing to let them have body armor and a rifle. For as long as they last before someone mugs them for the armor.

Well, I have got to go read Lapdogs. I’ve had the book for several weeks and I’m only on page 12. Wish I had taken that Evelyn Wood speed reading course that Cheech and Chong mentioned on their album a very long time ago. Every time I start to read, I’m afraid I’ll miss something here. Yikes–l8tr

Christy,I’ve had a legal question in my head for awhile about all this…

What is stopping an international court from intervening here?It seems like there’s case enough for various war crimes to be brought against certain government parties, but I don’t understand the process involved.

Just because Bush has recused himself from the international court doesn’t mean no crimes have occured,right? How can he get away with that on an international level?

I know zip about this kind of stuff,so my question may be kinda naive,but I don’t understand the process that’s involved for trying war criminals.Seems to me there’s an awfully long list that includes alot of politicians,war profiteers,and Rummy himself.I just don’t get what has to happen before something is done on that level.

I also know I didn’t ask this question all that well,but I don’t know how else to word it.

OT & EPU’d

egregious

check at the end of comments under “Sunday Talking Head” thread – birdie info for yer mom. ;->

Murtha is turning out to be surprisingly resilient. I’m guessing he’s more or less Rove-proof, or they would’ve tried a whisper campaign by now. Maybe they just realize he’s going to fight back. Suggested riposte to the “cut and run” accusation: We need a picture (or better yet, video) of lemmings charging over a cliff. They’ve already taken 2,500 of our best and brightest. How many more will die before someone has the guts to change course?

Not just take off the glasses, but work on our framing . . .

apparently some time in the last few days the Dems released some kind of ‘plan’ that didn’t mention Iraq! WTF?

Karl has been holding the megaphone for far too long on this tragedy. This 1 page linked below offers a very sensible means for Dems to gain some traction

in my growing desperation (recently had to promise the spouse I wouldn’t do anything that would land me in jail) I urge you all to consider this poster’s suggestion

http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..195357/822

An Angry Old Broad – I’m no lawyer but let me see if I can help you answer your own question. Let’s say the world court decided to charge Bush with some war crimes. First they need to get him into custody right? Who is in charge of that? How do they carry out their objective? And most importantly. What happenes after they’ve gone through the enormous trouble of actually arresting a sitting President of the United States(or VP or Secretary of defense/state etc.)? Think through the questions carefully and you should be able to figure out why no charges will be brought.

Rove is not only a traitor, he is also a thief. Look for the theft of the “progressive” label by Rove in this Victory NH propadandists dream interview…It is kind of like the National Review co-opting “rock-n-roll” songs in the ongoing theft ideas.

http://article.nationalreview……RjYTk4YjE=

Notice also the repeated use of the Cheneyesque “If you will.”

(Snip)

“But again, and maybe I’m just too optimistic about it, I think it’s going to tend to strengthen the Conservative movement because our focus is so much on ideas; and where, by nature, our movement is optimistic and forward-looking and, if you will, progressive: How can we help expand freedom and democracy? How can we expand markets? What are the game-changing reforms that we can build into public policy that will strengthen the power of the individual over their own lives and destiny? I think that’s where our focus is. I think the Democrat focus, or at least the Internet blog world focus, if you will, is, “How can we punish our enemies and express our anger?”

Linka-doo:

http://www.victorynh.com/

-GSD

Curious, that memo from the Baghdad embassy. Not because of the content. But because it has appeared at all. And because the Washington Post clearly vouches for its authenticity. Is this newpaper exploiting a scoop to get money or has it finally turned the corner into the street that leads from the Green Zone out of Iraq? It will be amusing to see who calls its reliability into question and how they will do it.

FP,

Murtha’s reply to “cut and run” was “Stay and pay.”

I liked that.

-GSD

It’s amazing how ungrateful red state America has become considering how well their tax cuts are working.

Zinsmeister the spinmeister. There simply is NO reality left.
http://www.taemag.com/issues/a…..detail.asp

Oh yeah, the last throes have lasted for more than a year now.

That is a heckuva throe.

-GSD

OFG, late nite thread –

I saw something on the road today that shocked me. It was never supposed to happen and completely against nature. It was both a very bad omen and a sign of the times.

An eagle eating carrion.

Actually, eagles are notorious scavengers — but this may be an omen nonetheless. The Gripsholm Runestone honors an 11th century expedition that went bad:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripsholm_Runestone

Tola had this stone raised after her son Harald, Ingvar’s brother.

They ventured as men
far away for gold
and in the East
they fed the eagle.
They died in the South
in the Caliphate.

The text informs us that they died during a Viking expedition in the East, i.e. across Russia. The expression fed the eagle is a kenning for waging war and killing enemies who were left as food for the eagles. The large expedition continued across the Caucasus and into the Caliphate. According to Ingvar’s saga, only one ship returned to Sweden in 1042.

Christy,

Nice recap and thanks for pointing out these sources. I am disturbed that the stories about fathers in Iraq and the embassy cable were buried so deeply in the WaP. Not shocked mind you, but the cable didn’t even make it to the “A” section. The press has som sort of battered spouse syndrome. They live in fear of provoking their abuser. Hide the negitive stuff or there’ll be hell to pay.

goes without saying, but frank rich is essential this morning. peking duck dot org has the whole thing up but the main point is:

What’s most impressive about Mr. Rove, however, is not his ruthlessness, it’s his unshakable faith in the power of a story. The story he’s stuck with, Iraq, is a loser, but he knows it won’t lose at the polls if there’s no story to counter it. And so he tells it over and over, confident that the Democrats won’t tell their own. And they don’t %u2014 whether about Iraq or much else. The question for the Democrats is less whether they tilt left, right or center, than whether they can find a stirring narrative that defines their views, not just the Republicans’.

SpinsMiester says:

“Many thousands of terrorists were killed, with comparatively little collateral damage.”

Yeah, those pictures of Fallujah looking like Guernica were really indicative of “compratively little collateral damage”.

What an easy phrase to use. It is kind of like referring to US troops as “numbers” and lamenting any coverage of kidnapped soldiers.

Besides, have you people forgotten that “3,000 Americans were killed by terrorists on 9/11?”

-GSD

Lieberman’s website joe2006.com still down, now 12 hrs.

“Bandwidth exceeded.”

Guess why…

It’s 112 at 8pm in Iraq – what do they need throes for? It’s way to hot to wrap up.

Off to read Lapdoggies. ccmask, I’ve managed to get to page 45 after several weeks. *s* Are you interrupted every 10 secs. by the “Moooooooooom, where is my (star wars guy, drawing paper, markers)? Oh, never mind, here it is.”, too?

The tragic part about the Omar story is that the US/Iraqi joint ruling clique has just “banned guns” in Baghdad. So, now the folks about to get picked up by genocidal militas will have to suck it up and used a butter knife to defend themselves instead.

Wonder how those conservatives and libertarians are crowing about the new “Iraqi gun ban?”

-GSD

Angry – courts have to have a manner in which they obtain jurisdiction over a matter. With our courts, the Constitution and state charters provide that. On an international front, the US would have to be a party to some sort of charter or agreement for a court to have jurisdiction. We do belong, I believe to some international trade chartered courts (I should know, but I don’t).

OTOH, we have never agreed to sign on for the International Criminal Court.

Wikki link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I…..inal_Court

Not only have we not signed on, we have taken the position that we could attack the court to obtain custody of any American held by the court and that we would not give military aid to countries that were subject to the ICC’s jurisdiction and we required immunity agreements from countries to whom we did provide military aid who might be subject to the charter.

But we do ok cooperation with the court as long as they are going after “our enemies.” *s*

In 2002, the U.S. Congress passed the American Servicemembers’ Protection Act (ASPA), which contained a number of provisions, including prohibitions on the U.S. providing military aid to countries which had ratified the treaty establishing the court (exceptions granted), and permitting the President to authorize military force to free any U.S. military personnel held by the court, leading opponents to dub it “The Hague Invasion Act.” The act was later modified to permit U.S. cooperation with the ICC when dealing with U.S. enemies.

The U.S. has also made a number of Bilateral Immunity Agreements, or so-called “Article 98″ agreements, with a number of countries, prohibiting the surrender to the ICC of a broad scope of persons including current or former government officials, military personnel, and U.S. employees (including non-national contractors) and nationals. The United States has cut aid and development funding for many countries cooperating with the ICC. Countries who have lost aid include Brazil, Costa Rica, Peru, Venezuela, Ecuador, South Africa, and several other Latin American and African countries

D*mn those South American communists and their CONSENT TO JURISDICTION OF AN INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES COURT!!!!

How dare they?

ck,

I thought more of war profiteering and all those who feed and get fat from death. I had hoped America had grown past that. I read and am dissapointed, then I see the Eagle feasting on roadkill, it just brought the message home.

From Riverbend on Zarqawi:

>>>>>>>>>>>
So ‘Zarqawi’ is finally dead. It was an interesting piece of news that greeted us yesterday morning (or was it the day before? I’ve lost track of time…). I didn’t bother with the pictures and film they showed of him because I, personally, have been saturated with images of broken, bleeding bodies.

The reactions have been different. There’s a general consensus amongst family and friends that he won’t be missed, whoever he is. There is also doubt- who was he really? Did he even exist? Was he truly the huge terror the Americans made him out to be? When did he actually die? People swear he was dead back in 2003… The timing is extremely suspicious: just when people were getting really fed up with the useless Iraqi government, Zarqawi is killed and Maliki is hailed the victorious leader of the occupied world! (And no- Iraqis aren’t celebrating in the streets- worries over electricity, water, death squads, tests, corpses and extremists in high places prevail right now.)

I’ve been listening to reactions- mostly from pro-war politicians and the naivete they reveal is astounding. Maliki (the current Iraqi PM) was almost giddy as he made the news public (he had even gone the extra mile and shaved!). Do they really believe it will end the resistance against occupation? As long as foreign troops are in Iraq, resistance or ‘insurgency’ will continue- why is that SO difficult to understand? How is that concept a foreign one?

more here: worth the read ;(

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

Last Wednesday, a bunch of us Indianapolis peaceniks planted 2500 American flags in the park outside the American Legion National Headquarters. Here’s a photo: http://home.indy.net/~ctto/2500.jpg

OK, here’s one. I don’t remember where I saw it, might have been a link from here.

In regards to getting the Iraqi forces “trained up” so we can stand down, there used to be four levels of preparedness used to measure the readiness of the Iraqis to go it alone, on a scale of 1-4, with four being the least prepared. Somehow, within about 9 months, the number of level 1 Iraqi forces slid from three to ZERO.

That doesn’t make anyone look too good, so instead of changing the training, they change the metric – and classify it. Of course. Now, levels 1&2 will be combined and three is the highest level but we’ll never know with any precision just how good (or bad) it is because they won’t be telling us anymore. Thanks, my poor wittle head might explode if the truth should somehow leak out.

Zbig doing a fabulous job right now and Eagleburger is a putz.

but y’all already knew that… sigh.

ck & cbl from below thread.

cbl – I do think that the situation will be spun and spun and that the media is going to be used along with it, but I can understand and even appreciate a little the media fixation on this one. But I take your points to heart.

ck – everything you said was right, but I just think it works better to mock the idiocy of Rove’s points than to try to stage manage and parse better.

E.G. That’s why I like the “go along and take it where it REALLY goes” approach.

Sure, Rove is right, those divisive left wingers had a recipe swap where the actually swapped DIFFERENT recipes. It was a shocking concept to left wing bloggers who have tried the same approach, but who seemed to generate little interest when the same recipe for barbecued ribs from the Talking Points Memo was re-posted by every participant.

Unity be praised, scurvy be d*mned.

I was glad to see the preznit visit the Green Zone– a fortified American fortress.

Go Zbig! Snark the truth back at ‘em!!

Just caught part of the “Chief Gasholes” yammering to Timmeh on Press the Meat. A brief synopsis: Sucks to be us. I put up a short post on my blog about this yesterday evening. If CHS will allow me to blogwhore, just click on my nickname to see what I think about energy and the environment and what I think should be done.

Dang it – talking about one thing and typing about something else is not a good idea.

Let me edit:

Sure, Rove is right, those divisive left wingers had a recipe swap where they actually swapped DIFFERENT recipes. It was a shocking concept to left right wing bloggers who have tried the same approach, but who seemed to generate little interest when the same recipe for barbecued ribs from the Talking Points Memo was re-posted by every participant.

:b

Nice touch on Press the Meat: Murtha criticizing Rove for sitting in his air conditioned office “on his fat behind” while American soldiers do all the dirty work….

(of course Karl’s work is plenty dirty too, just not deadly dangerous-dirty….)

And, from last nite’s McLaughlin Group:

John McLaughlin: I’ll take the position that Karl Rove is not quite out of the woods….because if and when he testifies in the Libby trial he will have to make sure that everything he says matches exactly with the testimony he’s already given….

Vote Republican, because everyone that knows that peace isn’t profitable.

Typo…

Vote Republican, because everyone knows that peace isn’t profitable.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: In Sandra Bernhard’s new one-woman show, “Everything Bad and Beautiful,” she takes aim at celebrities, politicians and even her own family. No one is safe. Please welcome back Sandra Bernhard. (applause) Great skirt! Great skirt. Great double (indistinct) skirt. You look – killin’ me. Yes, killin’ me. Killin’ me. Killin’ me.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Fresh breath all around.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Fresh breath for this. Okay, you spitting in a cup anytime soon giving up your DNA?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Only if I know for sure that I’m related to Barbara and we come from the schtettle when we ran from the Cossacks.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Would you do it, honestly? Would you do it? Would you give all your information out? Ahh, you don’t care.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Frankly, I think it’s a gimmick. What do I care?

JOY BEHARD: Yeah, I know, who cares?

SANDRA BERNARD: I mean, we’re here now–

BARBARA WALTERS: You tell everything about yourself anyway.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Exactly. There’s – there’s nothing to hide. I think we are all related. We are all essentially one soul. We’re – we’re the human race. We’re supposed to treat each other with human dignity. And if we can’t get that on our own, if we need to know the DNA, you know, is supposed to lead us to that, I think we should be able to figure that out by ourselves.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: So a good reason – (applause) And whatever – it doesn’t hurt–

SANDRA BERNARD: I don’t know—

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: –it doesn’t hurt one way or another, or you don’t care.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Unless there’s criminal involvement, where we’re trying to solve a crime. I think Barbara’s pretty clean, as far as I know.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Yeah. (laughter)

BARBARA WALTERS: Thank you.

SANDRA BERNHARD: But there was that – that heist in Vegas in ’72–

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: She does steal from the White House—

JOY BEHAR: Those shoplifting days were bad.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: They were.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Other than that, I trust her.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Everybody’s been talking about the show. Okay?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Good. I’m glad.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: It talks about politics, family, pop stars.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Yes.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You take full credit – I thought this was funny – for being responsible for The Emancipation of Mimi.

SANDRA BERNHARD: That’s right.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Okay. That’s Mariah. Now, I know L.A. Reid and those guys would take credit. But you say no, Mariah made a comeback because of you.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Cause I was responsible for her initial nervous breakdown.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Did you do something mean?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Well, I just talked about her in a show eight years ago, kind of revealing that she was, you know, hanging out with the brothers in a very kind of, you know, sexy, hot way, and I just found it very kind of – slightly odd that suddenly she was out as – as a slightly black lady.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: She’s – she’s definitely a black lady.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Oh!

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Yes, she is.

JOY BEHAR: Mariah Carey? Did she deny that she was not from a mixed—

(crosstalk)

SANDRA BERNHARD: No, I don’t think she denied it, but she suddenly kind of exploited it in an interesting—

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You think so?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Yeah.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Girl, please!

JOY BEHAR: And then you – you exploited it—

(crosstalk)

BARBARA WALTERS: So I—

SANDRA BERNHARD: Ooo, Star’s gonna go off on me today. Ooo! (smattering of laughter) Ooo, baby!

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Not even – not even—

JOY BEHAR: Oh, catfight.

(crosstalk)

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: I look too cute today to go off on you, don’t even worry about it. (laughter and applause)

JOY BEHAR: (mimics cat attacking)

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: I’m in a good mood.

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: That you do.

BARBARA WALTERS: But I interviewed Mariah Carey at least – I think at least eight years ago, and she never in any sense – she talked about coming from a biracial family—

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Yes.

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: Yes.

BARBARA WALTER: –and what it was to—

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: It – it’s just a joke.

BARBARA WALTERS: Anyway, let’s move on.

SANDRA BERNHARD: It’s a – it’s a joke.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: It’s a joke, you guys.

BARBARA WALTERS: We are moving on.

SANDRA BERNHARD: You had to have been watching MTV at the time when she was rolling around on the beds with – with all the – you know, with P. Diddy.

BARBARA WALTERS: Let’s move on to Diana Ross.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: –a joke.

BARBARA WALTERS: All right, Diana Ross.

SANDRA BERNHARD: You didn’t set it up right, Star. Thank you.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: I tried.

BARBARA WALTERS: Okay, so now I’m going to set up Diana Ross right. Okay?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Yes!

BARBARA WALTERS: So Diana Ross now has a park named after her in New York City, Diana Ross Park.

SANDRA BERNHARD: No, no, there’s the Diana Ross Playground, where children learn to be vicious, backstabbing and throw their arms up in front of other children. (laugher)

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Oh, you are so mean today to the girls.

SANDRA BERNHARD: That’s not mean. Oh, honey, please.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: I know.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Nobody’s nicer to the girls or more respectful to the girls than me, honey.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: I know.

BARBARA WALTERS: (overlaps) Okay, what do you think should be named – Diana Ross has a playground and children look up to Diana Ross, and what do you think should be named after you?

SANDRA BERNHARD: A bridge.

JOY BEHAR: Why?

BARBARA WALTERS: Sandra Bernhard Bridge?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Because I bring – I bring people together, Joy.

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: (laughs) You do?

(crosstalk)

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: (indistinct) like that DNA test.

ELISABETH HASSESLBECK: Yeah, exactly. Kumbaya.

SANDRA BERNHARD: –off with a bang.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You did, baby.

BARBARA WALTERS: Sandra, you know those bridges—

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You know my heart’s in the right place.

BARBARA WALTERS: You know those bridges that are very rickety and when you walk across them—

SANDRA BERNHARD: Chain – a chain bridge.

BARBARA WALTERS: –and they sort of move and you don’t know whether you’re going to sink or swim—

SANDRA BERNHARD: That’s right.

BARBARA WALTERS: –that’s your bridge?

ELISABETH HASSELBECK: That would be—

(crosstalk)

JOY BEHAR: You know, Sandra and I were at the roast the other day for Jerry Lewis, last week.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You told us about this.

JOY BEHAR: Yes, I mentioned – I think I mentioned Sandra. And you know, she always comes on at the end, hates everyone. Right?

SANDRA BERNHARD: What — what–

JOY BEHAR: Just hates all the material – wait a minute, wait a minute.

SANDRA BERNHARD: No – no, I don’t hate—

JOY BEHAR: Everything’s been disgusting—

SANDRA BERNARD : –I don’t hate everything – well, listen, you know, if you like to like, you know, take, you know, prostate problems to their – to their greatest heights, yes, I do get a little tired of hearing about that.

JOY BEHAR: Yeah, I know. And she comes on and she’s always, ugh, you’re disgusting – it was funny, very funny. Then she sang a song to Jerry Lewis. Do you—

SANDRA BERNHARD: From the – from The King of Comedy, and we tied it all together. I actually read a letter that Jerry Lewis wrote to me apologizing for making fun of my lips.

JOY BEHAR: Yes, that was interesting.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: That was just—

JOY BEHAR: She and Jerry had a big argument years ago when she was on – in that movie.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Would it – well, I know, honey, we can related to each other’s lips.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Definitely, I love your lips.

(crosstalk)

SANDRA BERNHARD: I mean, when you grow up in Scottsdale, Arizona in the seventies, you know, the kids have a little problem with, you know, sexy—

JOY BEHAR: But Sandra, what did he say about you?

SANDRA BERNHARD: He called me fish lips.

JOY BEHAR: Fish lips. That’s not nice.

SANDRA BERNHARD: And then he wanted me to fall into a glass parson’s table filled with a hundred candles in my bra and panties as he hit me.

JOY BEHAR: And—

SANDRA BERNHARD: And I said, Jerry, I said I don’t want to end up on Percodan the rest of my life.

JOY BEHAR: Like him.

BARBARA WALTERS: However, we are now talking about not just a comedian but a mother.

SANDRA BERNHARD: That’s right.

BARBARA WALTERS: Cause you have a seven-year-old.

JOY BEHAR: Nice segue, Barbara.

SANDRA BERNHARD: I know. The segue was genius.

BARBARA WALTERS: You have a seven-year-old who has changed your life. And you also have a – a permanent girlfriend and—

SANDRA BERNHARD: (overlaps) (laughs) I love – I have a permanent girl – indelibly marked girlfriend.

BARBARA WALTERS: –whom you’ve talked about – as permanent – as permanent as – well, you know—

SANDRA BERNHARD: She’s hot, honey. Forget it. This crowd is – they don’t (indistinct) – they – they’ve gone off into another zone here. The conversation has just liked segued from one bizarre thing – come back with us, honey. Don’t be frightened. It’s okay.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: –the show, this is good.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Okay.

BARBARA WALTERS: So you say you and your girlfriend are very different.

SANDRA BERNHARD: Yes, well, she was raised in St. Louis, Missouri, where at five they tell the children, okay, it’s time to get over the emotions now.

BARBARA WALTERS: Ohhh.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Is that so? And wait, is she as politically charged as you, too? Cause we know you like to rant politically. Do you—

SANDRA BERNHARD: Oh, honey, believe me, yes.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: But you – is she really–

SANDRA BERNHARD: Most assuredly.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: And does she – sided with you cause, you know, recently—

SANDRA BERNHARD: She – well, I wouldn’t be living in – with anybody who wasn’t siding with me in this day and age, yes.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Well, wait a second, cause you – you actually didn’t go – you actually weren’t as verbal against Bush the last time around. You kind of went against all the women behind the politics, you – Condi Rice—

SANDRA BERNHARD: That’s who I’m talking about presently.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Right.

SANDRA BERNHARD: You – because I have a hard time believing that other women don’t protect other women’s rights and aren’t totally supportive and could actually stand back and watch these duplicitous men bring us into a war that’s completely immoral killing their children – (smattering of applause) – and I think that – I think that—

ELISABETH HASSELECK: I – I – well, you and I could not live together.

SANDRA BERNHARD: No.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: We can see that. (laughs) We could—

SANDRA BERNHARD: I think that–

ELISABETH HASSELECK: –couldn’t be roommates.

SANDRA BERNHARD: I think a woman’s reproductive rights should be protected at all costs. We’ve fought and–

BARBARA WALTERS: What do you think of Laura Bush?

SANDRA BERNHARD: I think she’s heavily medicated.

JOY BEHAR: (laughs)

ELISABETH HASSELECK: About Laura Bush? Excuse me?

SANDRA BERNHARD: Yeah, Laura.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Why? Because she – why, because she advocates for education for children and protects—

SANDRA BERNHARD: (overlaps) She doesn’t advocate anything – honey, she advocates and then she disappears—

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Don’t call me – first of all, honey – honey yourself. Laura Bush has stood out there and talked to millions of people–

JOY BEHAR: Got to go. (gets up and walks toward stage left) (laughter)

(crosstalk)

SANDRA BERNHARD: Laura Bush—

ELISABETH HASSELECK: She is an advocate for children’s education, has gone out there, talks to – especially in this day and age—

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: (closing out segment) And so the spiral begins.

ELISABETH HASSELECK: –she – she is out there every single day.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: (shouting over crosstalk) Our thanks to Sarah (sic) Bernhard. Sandra, you know what – I know, but I have to do this–

SANDRA BERNHARD: It’s ironic – no, let me finish – isn’t it ironic—

JOY BEHAR: (returning) I just want peace in the world! (laughter)

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Go get a DNA test. (applause)

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: You know what? Excuse me –

ELISABETH HASSELECK: Get your DNA.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Somebody get me a cup to spit in, okay? BARBARA WALTERS: This is not a paid political announcement.

SANDRA BERNHARD: (overlaps) She may be talking about education, but her husband is cutting–

BARBARA WALTERS: Sandra Bernard’s views are her own. They’re her own.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: Put the camera on me. Thanks to Sandra Bernard. You can catch her one-woman show—

(crosstalk)

SANDRA BERNARD: –am I right about that, ladies? Yeah, I know.

STAR JONES REYNOLDS: –“Everything Bad and Beautiful,” until July 9th at the Daryl RothTheater. We’ll be right back. See? It gets silent.

(applause)

Mary –

My key point is that we lefty bloogers are NOT divisive — it is Rove and Bush that are destructive and divisive.

Finding points of agreement is important — then turn the BIG LIE against those who spread them.

We want to unite Americans, and restore American values –

Bush and Rove want to destroy America, and destroy the American community –

And from the Chris Matthews show, which had a surprisingly truthful discussion about the Rove debacle (as verbatim as I could get it taking notes):

Tweety: Do we have the shortest memory in the world? The president knows who leaked, and now he’s congratulating him….

Joe Klein: The person who should be fired over this is Cheney. He’s the one who was obsessed with Joe Wilson. At a time when the administration should have been focused on successfully fighting this war, they were instead trying to focus on discrediting Joe Wilson. This is the greatest disgrace of this administration.

Andrew Sullivan (agreeing): It suggests that the war was an ideological endeavor, a political endeavor, rather than an effort to protect national security.

Joe Klein: In June 2003 [when the leaking to smear Wilson was happening], there were 1,200 weapons inspectors in Iraq looking for WMD. General Ricardo Sanchez had 27 people trying to figure out who the insurgency was. That’s the disgrace.

Tweety: They’d rather make their case than win the war….

Joe Klein: Absolutely.

(Kelly O’Donnell and Elisapuff Bumiller also had things to say but I can’t write that fast…)

because everyone knows that peace isn’t profitable.

unless it’s a peace of ass, eh jay?

(sorry, a favorite line from kids in the hall.)

Forgive me for not putting this on Talking Heads thread, but am squeezing in a few minutes before vacuuming and then going out for Father’s Day…

My thought on Tony Snow is that he is a wonderful example of how being articulate does not equal competence; he is, if anything, much worse at his job than McLellan.

Murtha was great on MTP – Timmy kept trying and trying to trap him, and he just refused to go there. Murtha should say – we should all say – “I guess if you’re someone who never stops and asks for directions, you understand why Bush is “staying the course.” What you’re saying is that if the course one is on is not taking one where one wants to go, asking for directions is not an option, and one is stuck hoping that the destination will be reached before the car runs out of gas or the engine fails. Some of us have decided that that kind of pride and stubborness is not furthering the original goal, and it’s time for Plan B.”

John Podesta and Simon Rosenberg also refused to get sucked in. Chris Wallace is another one who thinks that GOP unity on Iraq is a good thing, and that the debate within the Democratic party makes us look weak. Is it really weaker to have the discussion than it is to stay wedded to a failing/failed policy? Don’t think so.

Gotta run – hope to be back later!

g’Mornin’ fifrepups, and Happy Hallmark Day.
_____

Life in Iraq
From the Embassy, a Grim Report
From the U.S. Embassy in Iraq, a stark compendium of its local employees’ daily hardships and pressing fears

WaPo Sunday, June 18, 2006; Page B01

Hours before President Bush left on a surprise trip last Monday to the Green Zone in Baghdad for an upbeat assessment of the situation there, the U.S. Embassy in Iraq painted a starkly different portrait of increasing danger and hardship faced by its Iraqi employees. This cable, marked “sensitive” and obtained by The Washington Post, outlines in spare prose the daily-worsening conditions for those who live outside the heavily guarded international zone: harassment, threats and the employees’ constant fears that their neighbors will discover they work for the U.S. government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..061606.pdf

Read the cable. What a complete FUBAR mess.

Tony Snow was asked today by Wolfie about the State Dept memo from Baghdad. The answer? That’s a month old now — things are getting better!

That’s just sad. Guess he couldn’t claim the memo was a forgery or something….the fonts matched up with State Dept. fonts….

In keeping with the topic, I am going to repost a link I posted earlier. WaPo (which has had some articles worth reading lately) had a pretty decent report last November on the situation that was emerging on the Iraqi prisons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00649.html
By Ellen Knickmeyer and K.I. Ibrahim

Now there has been a follow up on how things are going – one that actually reviews incidents that have occured and uses more on the record sources than “one military officer said . . .”
It’s not a reassuring picture.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..80_pf.html

Iraq’s prison system is overrun with Shiite Muslim militiamen who have freed fellow militia members convicted of major crimes and executed Sunni Arab inmates, the country’s deputy justice minister said in an interview this week.

“We cannot control the prisons. It’s as simple as that,” said the deputy minister, Pusho Ibrahim Ali Daza Yei, an ethnic Kurd. “Our jails are infiltrated by the militias from top to bottom, from Basra to Baghdad.”

As a result, Yei has asked U.S. authorities to suspend plans to transfer prisons and detainees from American to Iraqi control. . .

. . . the problem of militia control could prove particularly intractable. Shiite militias such as the Badr Organization and the Mahdi Army, loyal to cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, are backed by dozens of members of parliament whose political parties run the armed groups.

“You can’t even talk to the militias, because they are the government,” Yei said. “They have ministers on their side.”

Notice that in both the WaPo pdf of the internal memo and in this piece — you don’t hear a lot of references to al-Qaeda being the boogey man. People are in fear of the militias, the police, etc. more so than al-Qaeda.

I also could have sworn that there was a story that when they sent forces in to the Zarqawi bombed home, the only “resistance” that they encountered was from locals who were worried the black clad men were more militia death squads and as a result, we killed 4 or 5 of them in a shootout where they thought they were defending against militia. I hope I’m not misremembering that.

The Cold War Honeymoon is also in its last throes. Has the Chimpinator looked into Pootie Poots eyes lately? I bet Vlad’s eyes have a nice steely, don’t fuck with me, ex-KGB glare about now.

Putin bashes US/Bushism:

“They don’t like the fact that countries like China and Russia have joined efforts in solving common problems, that India and Pakistan are taking part and that it has attracted Iran,” he said. “Their worry is that they can’t influence it.”

http://english.pravda.ru/news/…..63-putin-0

-GSD

Somebody please make sense of Ana’s babble from Scarborough– I watched it and now look at the transcript and am scratching my head:

>>>>>>>>>>>

SCARBOROUGH: And Ana, if that happens, these people will get a lot of support from the new Democratic grass roots organizations, the bloggers, some people that you were out with this past week in Las Vegas. Talk about the intensity of the Democratic Party and the way they’re going to pull the party to sort of a left-leaning anti-war position this fall.

COX: You know, I’m not sure if, actually, the netroots are that left wing. I mean, I think that actually, they really want to win. The thing that I came away from in Las Vegas is that this is a party, this is a netroots that really wants to build a machine, for better or for worse. They actually really want to win. They are, however, hopelessly left-wing, and if Hillary Clinton had shown up in Las Vegas, she would have been booed, much as she was booed here in-here in D.C. But you know, I think that no one has yet to know to capitalize on that particular passion.

SCARBOROUGH: And so what happens? Do you think that because of the war, somebody like Hillary Clinton may actually have trouble getting through the Democratic primary because her position is too close to the position…

COX: Unfortunately…

SCARBOROUGH: … George Bush enunciated today in the Rose Garden?

COX: Unfortunately, I think that’s true-I mean, unfortunately, if you want a primary that draws the sort of widest slate of candidates possible. I think that’s true. I think that she won’t be able to get beyond the netroots because this is a party-or this is a base that feels very strongly about what they’re doing.

>>>>>>>>>>>

PS diGenova is suggesting a Libby pardon… SUPRISE, wingnut talking points getting out…

http://www.rawstory.com/showar…..-headlines

Two points – Kos on Reliable Sources this morning with a none too subtle reminder to the listening audience that Progressives are not about a single figurehead, we’re about all doing our part in this conflict. And 2nd did anyone else find the ransom sum of $30,000 quite high for what may not be a 3rd world country, but a 2nd world at the very best?

Angry Old Broad sez:

What is stopping an international court from intervening here? It seems like there’s case enough for various war crimes to be brought against certain government parties, but I don’t understand the process involved.

Just because Bush has recused himself from the international court doesn’t mean no crimes have occured, right? How can he get away with that on an international level?

It is an interesting question. You would figure that countries that would be extremely likely to commit human rights crimes wouldn’t join the ICC (if that’s the right acronym). Your Somalias, your Sudans, your US of A’s. Yet if the Court couldn’t address human rights crimes in such egregious offenders, what would be the point? It would be like felons having to agree in advance to prosecution before they committed crimes. They would have to sign on to join the system of courts/justice/jurisprudence etc. I wonder if there could be a situation where an American citizen (including a leader) could be “indicted” for an international crime and if he ever set foot in the jurisdiction of the ICC he would be subject to arrest and trial? (Like PJF’s indictment of UBL) Which wouldn’t be a problem for Bush anyway because I’m sure once he leaves the WH he ain’t leaving Crawford…

Re-posted from yesterday:

Three exciting WaPoO chats scheduled for Monday June 19th. Shalaigh Murray, who covered Ned Lamont first for the Post, back in March, has a chat at 11 Eastern. Howie Kurtz, who needs no introduction here at the ‘lake, has a chat at noon eastern. Finally, there’s a chat at 1pm eastern about stay-at-home moms. Maybe Lyin’ Rizza will show up for that one, to chat about Christy’s choices!

Get your questions in early!

Murray:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00990.html

Howie:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00999.html

Moms:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00904.html

You guys need to cut it out. I think I’m going to throe up.

“Their worry is that they can’t influence it.”

GSD – so even Putin’s talking about bloggers? *g*

D Ehrenstein 52

The View Girls didn’t want to touch Women’s Rights – reproductive or otherwise – with a ten foot pole. What a sorry bunch of right wing shills, especially Barbara Wawa. And that other one – yammering on about Laura Bush and all the make-believe good things she does.

I always liked Sandra Bernhard. We need ten thousand like her. She did a fine job considering that she was bombarded by right wing attack poodles. Tis a sorry, sorry state the media is in.

David Ehrenstein @ 52 – Your point?

1. Sandra Bernhard is a goddess? (yes)
2. An art installation that mocks the sometimes chaotic nature of blog threads?
3. Cut and paste is fun?

holy shit — don’t be a punk in maine:

May 30, 2006
In Army, Bangor man who shot windows can avoid jail
Steven Cowley, 18, has to pay victims and serve full enlistment.
By Tyra Braden Of The Morning Call
A Bangor Area High School senior who admitted his role in a BB-gun shooting spree that blew out about 200 windows and caused nearly $74,000 in damage won’t have to go to prison %u2014 but only if he joins the Army and stays in. …

His attorney, Ralph J. Bellafatto of Bethlehem Township, told Beltrami that Cowley probably would be deployed to Iraq within a year. Cowley owes $18,451 in restitution, which represents one-fourth of the $73,806 total damage.

Bellafatto said that, as part of the plea agreement, Cowley paid $5,000 on Friday and had to turn over net proceeds of a $6,000 ‘’signing bonus” he’ll get for joining the service.

In addition, 75 percent of his military pay will be deducted until the restitution is complete. If Cowley dies before the restitution is made, Bellafatto said, any remaining amount would be taken from his military life insurance.

http://www.mcall.com/news/loca…..ertown-hed

I was close earlier on John Fund ; ) From the Reliable Sources transcript…

“JOHN FUND, OPINIONJOURNAL.COM: Well, when the president goes on Baghdad it’s news and it’s a good photo-op. So obviously they are going to get favorable coverage. But I just don’t think the media is excessively negative on Iraq. We have found computer files in Zarqawi’s computer which shows he was very pessimistic about the insurgency and said time was on the Americans’ side. That got very little coverage even though my intelligence sources say it’s been completely authenticated.”

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRA…..rs.01.html

pathetic

Ah, I’ve caught up to y’all again. Happy to all you Pappies!

Imm, I’m so sorry to hear of your loss. What a good man you’ve described — what a good man Imm Jr. will always remember. Please pass along our best to Mrs. Imm and her dad.

Isn’t it remarkable (those of you who know) how, no matter how old you are when your last parent dies, you immediately feel your orphan-ness? Yes, you’re truly “free” for the first time — but what a steep price for it.

As to too-steep prices, Khalilzad’s cable and Abu Omar’s story X many thousands (or millions) already and to-come — well, to repeat myself, I don’t know how any Iraqis stay sane at all, or how we’ll ever live down what we’ve brought to them. God help our missing soldiers and any Iraqis and non-Iraqis who have or will share their situation.

Murtha has been magnificent, and more power to him. BUT. I would not under any circumstances want him on the Dem ‘08 ticket. For one thing, he’s right where we most need him now, and for another, he’s faaaaar to the right of us on social issues. That said, the work he’s doing now is crucial and his voice irreplaceable, so I’m deeply grateful to him.

Finally, “deeply grateful” reminds me to ask one last time that anyone who’s shared a recipe since the “Pull Up a Chair” thread please cross-post it there. Last I checked, that thread is way past 300 comments and still going strong — WA-HOO! It’s a bookmarker keeper fer sher, and I can’t wait for the next edition. Don’t know which to celebrate more — all the recipes or all the old readers with new screen-names!

Since we’re kicking king george around:

ck – I get your point and agree. I was just trying to make the point that you can attack the Rovian notions of unity while you highlight the contra-unity notions.

A unified endeavor – like say a recipe swap, benefits by a diversity of ideas involved in that endeavor; whereas when the “unification” involves repetitions of the same phrase, it is not an approach that solve problems.

But I agree with your points. Unity doesn’t involve destruction of opposition – it involves building on common ground.

OfT from prior thread:
“immanentize says:
June 18th, 2006 at 8:30 am “
Condolences on your loss.

Dear Osama,

Take this job and shove it.

-Abu Musab Al Zarqawi

P.S. This new jihadist you hooked us up with is for the birds. He put in half a days work of terrorizing and then said he had to make a phone call and just dissappeared.

Hey *ilson @ 41, good for you peaceniks and thanks! A visual protest like that conveys much more than just numbers, eh?

Immanentize, I am sorry for your family.

I trust Dick Cheney as far as I can throe him …

For those of you that haven’t — you really must read the cable from Iraq. There is so little un-spun information coming from there — this was never meant for publication and therefore is refreshingly direct.

Quentin@26, apparently they have confirmed that it’s legit, but that it’s from a month ago — and things are better now. Right.

The description of the remarkable risks the Iraqi workers at the embassy face is heartbreaking. They’re trying to do their best for their country and their families, but to me it seems that they are very likely doomed. The person writing the cable seems to have some humanity, but it’s hard to see how he or she can continue to employ these people given the fact that if they are found out — they are dead.

The description of how people have to change wardrobe and dialect for the different regions of Baghdad is chilling. The description of a former “upscale” section of Baghdad as a ghost town is similarly eerie.

It’s really worth reading — short, unspun, to-the-point.

dharmarific at 67 — I think David, who is a fantastic blogger in his own right and a long-time regular here at FDL, was doing me a favor in pasting in the dialogue since I was laughing about wishing I had seen the show. (Hasselbeck is a particularly vapid shrew, and any time someone pins her down on her knowledge-free right wing shill credentials, it cracks me up.) Since things have been busy here the last coupla days, I think the fabu David E. was giving me the glimpse I hadn’t gotten of the show smackdown.

Colin Powell (yeah, him again) “made” Zarqawi. Zarqawi was a “nobody” until Colin made him famous in a speech (designed to conflate Iraq and Al Bundy) to the UN. Osama couldn’t NOT put him to work in Iraq after Powell’s UN speech had given him his duty call.

Of course, the US empowered (financed and trained) Osama, too, for that matter.

OfT:

See, the world did not end just because Oakland had to wait almost two weeks to find out that Ron Dellums won the mayoralty outright, thus avoiding a runoff. I wish there were more articles like this, instead of the barely disguised “poor incompetent Oakland” stories we get on the local news. Essentially, Oakland mothballed its touch-screens, and found they were short on optical readers compatible with their “old-timey” paper ballots.

So they took their time counting the votes. As everyone should. Great story, poorly spun by the voting integrity people.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06…..kland.html

#66

ugh — that program is just so bad; but i did love the way bernhard mixed it up and totally upset those bitches’ morning; i bet there was some meow mix in the dressing room afterwards.

but i disagree — the one who i was disappointed in was joy behar. she’s the supposed liberal on the program, and she attempted to steal sandra’s thunder by walking off, causing a distraction. that blond airhead is a winger, for sure. and poor, sad, in denial star.

Anyone read the Democrats “New Direction for America”?

http://www.democraticleader.ho…..aseID=1628

My letter to the DNC:

I just have to comment on the:

Democrats’ new domestic agenda, “New Direction for America”.

I read it and nearly fell asleep.

This agenda is not “new” and it’s woefully incomplete, lacking any sense of priority.

There is no mention of Bush’s Iraq invasion.

There is no mention of the Bush administration’s incompetent management of our dangerously hollowed out economy.

There is no mention of Bush spying on American citizens.

There is no mention of the relentless destruction of the Constitution.

There is no mention of rampant Republican corruption.

The Bush administration looks less and less like a government and more and more like a crime syndicate.

“New Directions for America” is a pathetic response to the worst administration America has ever seen.

This is not an agenda that will motivate the progressive base of the Democratic Party.

If this is the best you can come up with, we’re doomed to Fascism in America for the millennium.

That is, if the planet survives.

Sincerely,

egregious,
Yes where has markfromireland been?
It was wonderful to have his son Dubhaltach stop in the other day to give us a hug, I miss him and pray for him daily. He’s put up a new post today:

http://gorillasguides.blogspot…..oussa.html

ccmask, I really liked your idea of: “…to create a spreadsheet on blogmeisters who attended the Vegas event and the number of readers they attract on a daily basis. I think the total on the bottom of this spreadsheet will give us all a better number to work with on the actual number who attended, versus the actual number who physically attended the affair.” Excellent idea, I hope someone can put together some kind of list of the bloggers big and small who attended and follow through on this valuable research.

keep forgetting to ask this -

approx. how many folks attended the FDL breakfast ?

Gitmo gitmo gitmo…

A paper from Seton Hall Public Law Research on Gitmo and detainees:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/pa….._id=885659

This an older This American Life called Habeas Schmabeas but well worth a listen. It has more info on gitmo detainees than you would want to know, a great history of habeas corpus and times others have tried suspending it, and in the 3rd act an amazing story from a former gitmo “resident” whose resilience is just fucking astounding.

http://audio.wbez.org/tal/310.m3u

Y’all stand up straight again, okay? No more slumping (especially to the right).

mainsailset says:

June 18th, 2006 at 9:53 am

And 2nd did anyone else find the ransom sum of $30,000 quite high for what may not be a 3rd world country, but a 2nd world at the very best?

Yes. I am constantly shocked that these people are able to come up with $30k to gain the release of their relatives. How many Iraqis have that kind of money? You have to think not very many, and yet I see these stories all the time.

justintime, 81

Based on your response to the letter in question, I am afraid to go to the link to read it, as I might vomit.

I’m gonna trust you on it, that it sucks as badly and that it is as spineless and as pathetic as you suggest.

David Ehrenstein, sing it with me: :”That’s Infotainment!”

We’re all doomed.

cbl: 130

Well would you evah!

Somebody self-ID-ing as “on the other side of the fence ideologically from y’all” just said thank you and left a recipe on that thread.

Just couldn’t help it, apparently.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 67 – Sorry David. No offense intended. I love SB and although I’ve never seen “The View”, I can’t imagine there anything but right wing shills on TV these days.

Lotus 92 – Proof that ck is right *g*

BaBa is more than a mere right-wing shill. Leave us not forget she is a Mafia Princess. her father, Lou Walters ran “The Latin Quarter” — New York’s Premier Mafia Front night spot in the 1950’s. Until becoming the Baba we know and love today her greatest goal was to marry

(wait for it)

Roy Cohn

Yes, boys and girls, Baba longed to be Mrs. Roy. She even let him bring his fuck du jour with him on their dates. Baba would tell Roy how important it was to have someone in his life. Roy would nod sympathetically, then take Baba home to her place. He and the fuck du jour would then decamp to Roy’s.

There’s a who psychopathology of power going on in here deserving of further study. Judy Miller is also a Mafia Princess. Her dad ran a Jersey night spot where The Chairman of the Board and his rat Pack would perform at the pleasure of Sam Giancana.

Judy’s Mom was a chorus girl at

(wait for it)

The Latin Quarter.

I’ll warrant, Mary. And it looks like some pretty Right-eous chipotle salsa, too — signed off with “And thanks to all for the recipes. If we agree on nothing else, at least we can agree to eat well!”

Good stories, David E! Like aspens, connected at the roots….

Angie – thanks for pardon story link (from Newsday). Interesting….

By demanding sensitive, sometimes embarrassing materials, some say, Libby appears to be goading the White House into issuing a pardon. Libby’s spokeswoman did not respond to questions about a pardon.

One attorney familiar with the Plame case said Bush might find that it is in his interest to pardon Libby sooner rather than later.

A pardon before the trial could could cut off the disclosures and spare Vice President Dick Cheney from testifying as Fitzgerald’s witness about Libby, his former chief of staff.

But the timing of a pardon, the attorney suggested, likely would depend on the outcome of the midterm elections.

If Republicans retain control of Congress, Bush could act swiftly. But if Democrats win control of the House or Senate, Bush might wait, and use Libby’s trial as an excuse not to cooperate with any congressional investigations into the leak.

The counterargument to a pardon this year or next, however, is that it would be a political bombshell and distract from Bush’s agenda.

DiGenova predicted that Bush, like other presidents, would issue controversial pardons on his last day in office.

As president, Bush has constitutional power to issue a pardon at any time — even before a crime is charged. And presidents of both parties have pardoned political friends.

In 1974, for example, President Gerald Ford pardoned ex-President Richard Nixon for any crimes he might have committed. In 2001, President Bill Clinton pardoned convicted political friends as he left office.

A few weeks before leaving office in January 1993, President George H.W. Bush granted Christmas Eve pardons to six Reagan-Bush officials charged in the Iran-Contra scandal, including two whose trials were about to start.

To justify the controversial pardons, the elder Bush blamed “the criminalization of policy differences.” That “troubling development,” he said, was created by an independent counsel probe of how the executive branch evaded a congressional ban on funding Nicaraguan Contras by selling arms to Iran and sending proceeds to Contras.

DiGenova said that similarly, Fitzgerald’s prosecution of Libby “is the epitome of the criminalization of the political process.” Fitzgerald, he said, has found no evidence of the underlying offense — the knowing revelation of a covert agent’s protected identity.

In filings, Fitzgerald argues Libby’s lies obstructed him.

But a pardon for Libby at any time also carries political risk.

Ford lost the 1976 election, for example, and the elder Bush and Clinton were tainted in the controversies over their pardons.

Democrats have already indicated they will go on the attack. Last fall, their congressional leaders wrote Bush urging him to pledge not to pardon Libby. Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Bush did not respond.

“I think it would be very wrong to pardon Scooter Libby, and I doubt the president would do it,” Schumer said Friday. “It would cause him real damage.”

And what would PJF do, aside from sticking pins in his voodoo dolls? There would absolutely nothing he could do, presumably….

Re: The possibility of a Libby pardon, as discussed above at 61.

I think that pardoning Libby at any time in the next 12 months would be extremely dangerous for Bush. Remember, Libby is charged with lying and obstruction. Thus, there’s a question of what, exactly, Libby would be pardoned for. Just the current charges? Or would he get a blanket pardon for both the current charges AND for outing Plame.

Remember, this is an active investigation. If Libby is only pardoned for the current charges, Fitz will immediately subpoena him again to testify about outing Plame in the first place. Libby could then invoke his 5th Amendment right to remain silent, which is pretty much his only option. Frankly, I don’t think that could be kept under wraps, and it would amount to an admission of guilt. Fitz probably has enough for an IIPA indictment, and that could follow next. Libby can probably have that thrown out on national security grounds, but it’ll look REALLY bad.

The other option is that Libby gets a pardon for everything, including betraying a CIA agent in wartime. Again, that looks REALLY bad. And again, Fitz would immediately subpoena him. With a pardon, Libby CAN’T invoke his 5th Amendment rights. So he HAS to testify to the GJ. He could end up being charged for perjury AGAIN, or more likely, he could testify that the whole thing was his idea, he outed Plame, and Dick had nothing to do with it. That gets Cheney off the hook. But again, I don’t think that could be kept under wraps.

And there’s still a civil suit to worry about. Wilson and Plame will file that at the last minute, I’m sure. If the case goes past 2008, there may be a less sympathetic Administration to the whole national security argument. Remember, this is NOT like Watergate or Iran/Contra in that there is a clear victim here–Valerie Plame–who happens to be both a former CIA agent and a very telegenic blond woman.

Everyone’s talking like this whole mess is at the endgame, and a pardon will finish the show. That’s not the case at all. We’ve just started the middle game, and the good guys are up a rook. I know everyone wants a quick victory, but I’m willing to wait a little while. I think the true endgame is going to be spectacular.

For Harry at 9 on previous thread,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re…..234012.htm
This says that “in Vietnam, 24 percent of the wounded died”, in Iraq, the rate is (or was at the time of this article) 10 percent.
Injuries more massive now with those saved.

Thanks everyone who responded to my question(see Lobstergirl at #63).I have been thinking on this for awhile,but since the law isn’t even close to my forte’,I kinda got stuck on this one.Now I have more to work with,thanks.So many smart people in one place,it’s quite impressive,IMO at least.

Lobstergirl hit on my underlying thoughts,why even bother having some sort of international legal body(or bodies)if those in power don’t have to answer to it if they don’t want to? It seems rather pointless.

It just seems to me that if there is evidence of crimes committed,then why hasn’t the Justice system done more? Or is the system so gamed now that it’s too corrupt to take on this organized crime cabal? What’s in the way?

I realize that taking legal action has to be done carefully or it can set terrible precidents that can effect the future and backfire.Justice has to be tempered with common sense and thinking ahead.But then I go right back to the actual crimes(and heaven only knows what we DON’T know,that scares the bejesus out of me),and I want Justice to be faster.

Frank Probst – very interesting. Hope you’re right about the spectacular endgame.

Frank Probst #99

Thanks for your thoughts on Plamegate. It makes me feel a little less depressed about the non indictment of Rove news.

Kos did extremely well on Leslie’s show today .Here’s the transcript. Scroll down for Kos towards the end.

The most important point he made is that the “Mainstream” wants to make this all about him, whereas the Daily Kos AND the Yearly Kos was a collective effort.

Collectivity is like garlic to these vampires.

Last night, I attended a wonderful party thrown by the Denver Drinking Liberally and the SoapBlox Colorado bloggers. (SBC has just changed it’s name to SquareState.Net — hmmm . . . not sure about that)

Anyway — the event got me thinking about the three aspects of Political Narrative — micro, macro, and meta.

All three aspects are working at the same time, and when they line up and pull in the same direction, the effects of each become force multipliers of the others.

Example — on of the most powerful sound bites of the last thirty years was Ronald Reagan’s “Are you better off today than you were four years ago?”

Although Jimmy Carter never used the word “malaise,” it was the perfect summation of the psychological effects of the Carter Administration. When Hollywood tough guy Ronald Reagan asked his question, it captured the national mood — it captured the essence of the subliminal meta narrative.

As a subset of this meta narrative, the image of Carter and the Democrats as weak, vacillating losers was cemented in the public consciousness. It is this meta narrative that is active ingredient in Karl Rove’s Right Wing Kool Aid, and the Beltway Dems failure to understand it and construct a counter narrative antidote is the greatest impediment we face, in turning around the Democrats political fortune.

The reason why the “are you better off?” question was such a potent meta narrative was because the micro and macro narratives lined up with it. Inflation, the loss in Vietnam, and the Iranian Hostage Crisis all fed the storyline.

But failing to understand and counteract the after effects is the greatest failing of the DC Dems.

justintime #81

Everyone whines that no one knows what Democrats Stand for or if they say anything… it is blabla bla … toooooo long to get the points. So here they have 6 point position on issues that is concise and clear, the heart of American values and it gets trashed.

The idea was to counter the idiots who think Democrats do not stand for anything.

I am going to type this really slow because IF you do not like what Democrats are saying are you doing anything about it? Are you a voting Precincent Committee person in your district, township, county and/or state party? I am…

If you do not see what you think needs to be done then you are not doing something. IF you are a registered Democrat, YOU are the party. IF you do not like what they are doing, then get inside the party and make the changes.

Meanwhile, in Guantanamo:

http://www.boston.com/news/wor…..es?mode=PF

Seems after being forced to comply by the courts with requirements for hearings, Pentagon and State officials aren’t making good faith efforts to find witnesses with exculpatory testimony.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: When it comes to Plamegate the Fat Lady has not yet sung.

In fact she hasn’t even started to warm up. Very prescient of McLaughlin (of all people) to note that we should next look towards Irving’s trial as Cheney will be testifying under oath. Tons O’ Fun!

Of course we all want them to go down in flames, but whether Plame is the flameout of our dreams remains an open question.

Fitz is a means to a possible end. Not an end in and of himself.

First my thanks to egregious for alerting me that you had an “Iraq” thread up.

There’s a fundamental problem with coverage of Iraq on American media and it’s these assumptions

1) That there’s anything you can do to influence events in Iraq.

2) That even if there was anything you could do to influence events in Iraq that you will have any legitimacy there.

Both of these assumptions are false. Maliki’s approval amongst Iraqis plummetted as a result of the Bush visit. I’ve just got back from a detour into Iraq of a few days from my posting in Afghanistan. The brutality and rapaciousness of the occupation are such that you’re hated yes, but you’re despised even more. Here are a few inconvenient facts about what life is like in Iraq for most people:

1. Nearly half of Iraq’s population is under the age of 15.

2. 70 percent of child deaths are caused by diarrhea and respiratory infections.

3. One in eight children die before their fifth birthday, Iraq now has one of the highest mortality rates in the world.

4. Acute malnutrition among children has nearly doubled since the American led occupation of Iraq.

5. The unemployment rate is now 60% and rising.

markfromireland edla and myself continually blog about what’s going on in Iraq. And something we NEVER see mentioned is that when you break down the stats contrary to what American newspapers tell you is that the majority of attacks are made:

1. Upon occupation forces.

2. THe attacks are made predominantly by Iraqis. See 3) below.

3. If you you take centcom’s own figures correlate them with their own press releases then correlate them against press reports from Agencies such as AFP, AP, KR, and Reuters, and then cross co-relate them with reports from Arabic papers in particular Iraqi papers you will find that in fact the number of attacks made by foreign groups such the fabled “al-Qaeda in Iraq” is in the region of 3-6%

4. What you’ll also not see mentioned is that an increasing number of the attacks are in fact being made by Shia groups and I’m NOT just talking about the south of the country.

4.1) You will see mentioned only in passing that the attacks are increasing in:

a) Intensity
b) Duration
c) Sophistication
d) Co-ordination
e) Number of attackers.

5. Much of the so-called “sectarian attacks” are in fact part of a systematic campaign to destroy Iraqi society prior to carving the place up. blaming the Iranians for this is ludicrous the last they want is for Iraq to implode. Most Iraqis point the finger for the current violence squarely at the American “advisers” in the interior and defense ministries. On balance I’m inclined to agree with their assessment – contrary to what you read in western mendia those advisers have NOT relinquished their control of the militias. The militias in particular the FPS get paid from American funds directly not through some Iraqi agency.

6. The idea that a withdrawal “over the horizon” will work qua Murta is ludicrous. Apart from the logistical difficulties again see markfromireland suddenly deepening you footprint elsewhere in the region will destroy what little legitimacy those regimes have with their populace.

I’m reproducing in full what a formerly pro-American Iraqi woman a Shia married to a Sunni incidentally that’s very common in Iraq had to say on our blog about your soldiers and your country:

“Maryam said … (Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:05:36 PM) :

You AMERICANS opened our borders to these fanatic criminals you AMERICANS are perfectly happy to let them murder our children when you are not murdering them yourselfs. Then you point and say “oh look the dirty Arabs we CIVILISED AMERICAN PIGS must stop the arabs from killing one another” IT IS YOU AND YOUR TRAITORS DOING THE KILLING OF OUR CHILDREN!!! TAKE YOUR CHALABIS AND YOUR ALLAWIS AND YOUR BARZANIS GO HOME TO AMERICA AND LET THEM HELP YOU SODOMISE YOUR OWN DISGUSTING COUNTRY!!!!

I am sorry Mark my friend for this language but they need to learn and I speak only whatevery Iraqi knows. They even HIDE behind our children they lure them with sweets and toys hoping to use them as shields.

PIGS PERVERTED THIEVING MURDERING AMERICAN PIGS.

GO!”

She’s very typical and if you bother to go through what is daily documented on gorillasguides you’ll see why. The comments she made about hiding behind children?

See here: http://gorillasguides.blogspot…..ldren.html

Americans need to stop deluding themselves that there’s anything you can do except leave preferably yesterday. You are not now and have not been a power for good in the Middle East the more you try to influence events there now the worse you’ll make things.

Leave.

On a personal note I’m going to add something mark would never say:

He doesn’t comment here anymore – he doesn’t believe in wasting his time. The last time he commented here the same person who bounced three emails from him asking them to do a posting on the plight of Gay Iraqis had the gall to criticise him for his “tone of voice” and complaining about his thinly disguised contempt for people who talk a lot about how they “care” try doing a search on our blog for the word “potatoes”

I will add that I share his contempt and that unllike him I see no reason to conceal it. The root of your problems in the Middle East is your belief as a people that you have the right to shape other peoples lives and other peoples countries as you see fit.

Master race, master nation, there is no difference.

du

Yay, Katymine! What you say! We started a Democrat club in our small town this year. The California State Party voted at the convention to adopt the Progressive wing’s platform. For all the bad things going on in our world today, there is one bright shiny spot – people are getting involved again.

Frank Probst #99:

And there’s still a civil suit to worry about. Wilson and Plame will file that at the last minute, I’m sure.

I certainly admire their restraint and I bet Fitz appreciates it too. But, does anybody have any idea what the Statute of Limitations is in something like this? In other words, when is the last minute?

The Wilsons have to be mindful of where they bring the civil suit…Some places have a 3 yr statute of limitations other places have longer. I believe DC is 3 years so time is approaching if they want to bring it in DC

ck 103, thank you for those excellent insights.

They suggest to me that we’re on the right track with our own meta-narrative suggestion of “Let’s Get Real” (or something like that — sorry, can’t recall who here originated it, but it’s wonderful).

Of course, what we face now is orders-of-magnitude worse and wider than anything Reagan had to point at, so I just hope that one or more Dem candidates have sense enough to glom onto “reality” as their watchword and lodestar.

Thank you, Franco. So, I guess, even if they wanted to they can’t wait for all the criminal proceedings to completely play out.

Dubhaltach:

I don’t see anything in your comments about Iraq inconsistent with anything I’ve written on the subject for this site, up to and including the post I have ready to go live very shortly.

Thanks for posting!

“The root of your problems in the Middle East is your belief as a people that you have the right to shape other peoples lives and other peoples countries as you see fit.

Master race, master nation, there is no difference”

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you du, and my best to your dad who I miss around here. Please stay safe. I am grateful for your honesty. We have not only lost, we have ruined many, many lives both in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

I’m really not interested in what you do or do not “see” pach

*poof*

Tony Snow was asked today by Wolfie about the State Dept memo from Baghdad. The answer? That’s a month old now – things are getting better!

A month? No. The header date is June 6, timestamp is about 12:15 PM Zulu (GMT). Tony’s making this stuff up as he goes along: it’s as Colbert said, Scotty could say nothing better than anyone else. Tony’s service to the credibility of this administration: well, heck of a job, Tony.

Wow. I was being friendly. Weird.

I would add, how could any thinking person not be enraged by American policy? Dubhaltach is right. I haven’t figured out why we who are fighting to change that policy have become targets of that anger, but since Dub is not sticking around to talk with us as allies, then I guess I’ll never know. He’s welcome to jump in, as we always welcome civil discussion.

The last time he commented here the same person who bounced three emails from him asking them to do a posting on the plight of Gay Iraqis had the gall to criticise him for his “tone of voice” and complaining about his thinly disguised contempt for people who talk a lot about how they “care” try doing a search on our blog for the word “potatoes”

I will add that I share his contempt and that unllike him I see no reason to conceal it.

Emphasis added for the hard of comprehension.

*exit*

WRT the ransom request. Don’t forget that in Iraq as in many middle eastern countries, Omar wouldn’t be alone in coming up with the money. His entire family would help out.

And that family could include brothers, uncles, cousins, second cousins, third cousins, in laws, related by marriage relatives and emigrated relatives. Not saying it wouldn’t be a stretch, just that many people would chip in.

And in return, he would be expected to help his family out too, if needed.

As an example, I have a Lebanese friend. He told me he’s related to Chalabi. The relationship is something like Chalabi married my friend’s uncle’s wife’s sister. (And he couldn’t believe back in 2002-3, that the US was relying on such a crook.)

I’m sick to hear that markfromireland no longer wants to post here — and it sounds as if Dubhaltach may be nearing the same decision. What losses for us.

It’s perfectly easy to understand — once Du points it out — why an “over the horizon” redeployment would perhaps go bad as quickly as Iraq itself has. And if the same DoD is still in charge, it’s bound to, as a matter of fact.

“Maryam”’s post needs to get out and out and out, until it finally enters the rock-hard skulls in DC.

Jesus.

Um, Dub, I never asked anyone to post on gay Iraqis. Are you referring to me? I’ve also never had any email correspondence with Mark.

Anyway, the new thread is up.

It’s all so insane. If the dems were responsible for all these f***ups, the repubs would be screaming till their heads exploded.

I am taking what Markos and others said at Yearlykos. It is time to walk away from our computers and Air America and get out to talk to our neighbors.

Start by going to a progressive group meeting, DFA, PDA, Liberally Drinking, what ever. Meet with people, build that social network outside the net.

Get involved in your local party. If you are not, you really have no right to whine on what they are doing. In many cities in Arizona, the DFA members have taken over the local Democractic Party. That means Howard Deans progressive positions are put in place. The same is true with PDA groups.

Call your local election board to be a poll worker, then you can verifiy that voting is done without issues.

Be a part of the change. We need everyone to do one little thing everyday.

his thinly disguised contempt for people who talk a lot about how they “care”…

not so disguised really… and there are so few people around here who actually disagree with the out-yesterday crowd that these angry cries of persecution seem a little out of place and out touch frankly…

Du-

I sent your post to my Senators. FWIW.
I know your Dad has been deeply disappointed and infuriated over some of the postings here.

Still, WE ARE LISTENING. And we have come to care for you all, and miss you when you are absent, and send thoughts to the heavens for your safety and those you love, both in Iraq and elsewhere.

Please don’t let your frustration with a few shut off this converstion.

Frank Probst @ 99 –
The other option is that Libby gets a pardon for everything, including betraying a CIA agent in wartime. Again, that looks REALLY bad.
You have more faith in the media than I do … Christ, they’re already blatantly violating the 4th Amendment, “strict constructionist” Scalia Scalia throws stare decisis away to let cops into your house without knocking, the Admin is ramping up Iran in the same exact way they did Iraq and not getting called on it … They would, undoubtedly, find a way to spin a pardon.
And even if they don’t, would Bush care? He’s still got hold of the levers of power without any effectual opposition.

Pach — Accept Du’s anger. I assume it was directed at all of us, not you alone.

I suspect the primary reason that the Dems cannot articulate a story line counter to the Rove/Bush story line on Iraq is that the only true counter story is the one just articulated by Du. From that perspective, everything else is just illusion, and political opportunism.

The picture he paints is one that most Americans would find profoundly offensive, not just at a personal level but also from one’s sense of national indentity. It just defies human nature to accept such a self portrait, even in abstract terms; it’s hard to accept that everything you’ve been taught and assumed to be true about Americans, America’s role in the world, and what others must think of us is just fundamentally upside down. Indeed, how could any nation accept such a critique, internalize it, and begin to comprehend its ethical implications without suffering from a complete pyschological breakdown? It’s like being told that every thing you believe is, in essence, pathologically criminal.

I’m certain that much could be said to show that his view is only half the story, the worst half, and there is much good from which to build. That is my hope. But the problem that America faces, and that we pose to the world, is that there is no peaceable model for how a nation faces itself and finally sees itself as others see it. It took a total and crushing military defeat for the Germans, for example, to begin to realize that the image many had of themselves, that justified their wars and that accepted or ignored the holocaust, was fundamentally evil, and that they, like all of us, have a dark side that is capable of such horrors, especially if we allow ourselves to be led by unscrupulous demogogues. America is almost there now, and collectively we are as blind as they were then.

The “debate” in Congress this week is a clear sign that this country is not yet capable of self perception in any meaningful sense. And there are no leaders, in any party, and any forum, or any media (with the possible exception of a few blogs) who appear to be capable of holding up an accurate mirror.

I fear we are in for a long, dark period, and so far, I see little that will lead us toward a new enlightenment. In meantime, each us has to be a small candle, and we should watch for each other.

Thanks to Du for caring enough to hold up this mirror, and I hope he will one day come to forgive us, and that we earn it.

Katymine @ 106

Yes, I’m an active member of the Democratic Party just like you. I’ve attended local Democratic caucus meetings over the years and can confirm mommybrain’s observation – “people are getting involved again”.
Our household (five voting members) works very hard to get Democrats elected.
Our Representatives in Congress get letters and calls from us on a regular basis, criticizing AND praising their work.

You’re right, “New Direction for America” is a concise, clear statement of traditional Democratic values and it does address critics who say the Dems don’t stand for anything. But if this is all it’s for, it could have been even more concise and more clear.

Its title promises more than it delivers because it lacks a sense of urgency, completeness and priority needed for a “New Direction for America”.

You have got to be kidding me. You cherry pick the worst of the worst, egged on by a bunch of Bush haters, and believe your POV carries the day. You’re just another DailyKos wannabe, packed with Moveon.org & Michael Moor type zealots.

As far as you’re concerned now, everything bad that happens in Iraq is Bush’s fault, is the invasion’s fault. If a crime is committed anywhere in Iraq it makes it to MSM as another thing wrong with our “occupation”. Never mind that violent crime also occurs in our country. Plus, I’m sure the Al Queda memo that was published the other day suggesting they are losing gets no airtime on this site. And neither are the good things happening in the 90% of the country where things are relatively normal.

You’re not kidding anyone except the zombie like, Bush hating followers in places like DailyKos. I guess winning is not an option for some.

Best Regards,
SmoothzJazz

skips over the hundreds of god things happening

“Thanks to Du for caring enough to hold up this mirror, and I hope he will one day come to forgive us, and that we earn it.”

>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

thank you, scarecro*. thanks to du and mfi and maryam. we will need to seek forgiveness from an untold number of people. I wish we could start today.

David E -

I just posted the YouTube link for the Bernhard stuff on the next thread. It’s got to be seen to be believed.

new thread

My system’s blocking me from opening the PDF file… Help>> Can someone please post it. Also the Washington Post is linking to FDL as a blog talking about the Father’s Day in Iraq article.

jL –

Just post the link to WaPo PDF — with a PDF warning, of course.

Steve Gilliard has a partial transcription of the PDF — here’s the link:

http://stevegilliard.blogspot……ghdad.html

Du — glad you have either made it back safe from Afghanistan or that you’ve gotten some R&R near an internet cafe. (and, btw, I have NO idea what you are talking about with the blog stuff…when did it all happen? Wanna e-mail me with more detail? Jane’s out at the moment — her mother is in the hospital and I’m holding down the fort…)

Why are you tiptoeing around Dudley’s insulting comments? Let’s be real here:

Dudley (anglicized form of gaelic dubaltach) is nothing if not rude, however compelling his facts are, and however right his argument about the american media may be (and certainly is). Then again, I suppose if Dudley looked close enough, he’d see a few flaws in the British and Irish press too–after all, Murdoch reins supreme, and the Beeb isn’t all it’s cracked up to be–though I do love the Guardian. At any rate, this *poof* business is what is known as “emotional blackmail.” Especially considering he first went *poof*, and then came back so he could make his second, and presumably final, dramatic *exit* after insulting pach.

Sort of silly, isn’t it? Oh, do come back Dudley, we miss your abuse so…

On the other hand, I always loved reading Markfromireland’s comments and I am really sorry to hear he won’t be coming back. There was more than once I wanted to respond but held back–now I wish I had actually responded then to tell him how much I enjoyed his commentary. If you are reading Dudley (and you know you are, you silly thing) then, please pass along to Mark that we would love to hear more from him.

*smile*

ck thanks. A friend talked about an e-mail going around about how important it is to win in Iraq. I looked at her and said we already lost. We’ve stripped people of their dignity and their right to earn a living. What else is there. She has been forwarded the Washington Post Link. Where’s Laura Bush????????????????????????

Du,

I’m printing your email message from the formerly friendly Iraqi woman, along with the snips from the embassy workers, to carry along with me daily. My own personal ceaseless noise machine has already turned two R’s into D’s this year.

I can “hear” the anger and disgust in your “voice” about American behavior. I’m still flabbergasted by our inability to make a difference in our OWN country, let alone the ones we’re destroying. What can we do?

Master race, Master country indeed.

Tennesean – STFU.

#22 Frank Probst, will this help at all? Here it is in its original context.

Lots more lemming pics here if anyone has the patience to sort though them.

(From Item 15 in Khalilzad’s June 6 memo to Condi):

In March, a few staff members approached us to ask what provisions would we make for them if we evacuate.

Not to worry, there’s no way Bush will allow them to evacuate till after the November elections.

(Slightly edited by CHS — Shez, if you have questions as to why, e-mail me. Thanks. ReddHedd at AOL dot com)

There’s not one damned thing to *smile* about or condescendingly call silly or abusive, especially not to amazing souls like Dub who is actually serving and in mortal danger, a strong brave officer, nor should you be insulting him over defending his FATHER Mark, on Father’s Day no less, who is equally amazing and well loved around here. I recall the thread Dub is citing which happened within the last month although not all the details or who all was involved at the moment, what I do recall is being very offended and shocked by how Mark was treated by some commenters.

Is there something in the water lately? Has the tons of depleted uranium the USA has been using finally drifted over on the jet stream? It just seems like long time commenters are getting attacked all the time anymore which has affected me from commenting too when our focus should be on the facts and the fascists, not the messengers on the front lines telling us eye witness accounts of what our MSM and the Busheviks won’t. Dub isn’t being rude, he’s being real and speaking Truth, what a concept, and he doesn’t take any shit like everyone here is so proud of doing at will on a daily basis. And that’s so hard to grasp sitting safely surreal in our puter chairs isn’t it.

Thank You, Dub, for sharing your first hand perspectives of Iraq, and your objectivity of America that most are too subjectively close to to discern having never stepped foot in Iraq or off our shores in many cases. The minor squabbles here will work out in due time, it’s the major global implications of real warfare and never ending troubles that keep me from sleeping. You know you are in my prayers every moment.

Amen to Shez, and Amen to Mark and Du.

Just to clarify, when I said Dub doesn’t take any shit and then followed with “like everyone here is so proud of doing at will on a daily basis” I meant no one here takes any shit either, and they’ll certainly let everyone know it. I edited out too much of that sentence and don’t want it misconstrued.

To all for father’s day: Posted on the Sunday thread as well but not sure if EPU’d..

I just came back from a spiritual service where they offered a prayer of gratitude not only for all the fathers present, but for all the SINGLE MOMS DOING THE WORK OF FATHERS TOO! The place went wild and over 1000 people were on their feet.

Not falling in either category myself, it was nevertheless a moving experience.

So, to all the fathers on FDL – and any single parents doing the work of fathers – thanks for all you do.

And teach your children well about what is necessary to return this country to a true democracy.

Happy Father’s Day!

Tennessean, altho since you are clearly a drive-by assassin, I am talking to the mirror here, re Dubhaltach:

Could you BE more insulting to someone who is doing dangerous work?

Second. What name he calls himself is between him and his father. Not for you to translate or otherwise mock.

Third. For the record I want it known that Tennessean has never in my memory commented here before and does NOT represent how fdl people feel about du and mfi.

My street cred: I work in a developing country, sometimes in dangerous situations, in hospitals with pitiful supplies, where the lives of children hang in the balance. I have personally seen children die who could have been saved if they had the right medical supplies. I, unlike you, do understand how we have destroyed Iraq’s medical system, perhaps you could give that some thought the next time you need emergency care.

WE HAVE DESTROYED A COUNTRY. GOD HELP US.

Okay, everyone. Enough piling on. I have enough to do today without having to come back to this thread every five minutes to make sure there’s no name calling. Please, drop it. Du and Mark are big boys and can more than handle themselves if they choose to do so. Likewise just about everyone else on this blog at one point or another. But I will not tolerate a bunch of snipy nastiness — I have not had nearly enough sleep for it, and my exhaustion is like to make me snappish any moment now. So please, let it go. Are we clear?

Egregious at 148… THANK YOU for the work you do. It breaks my heart how many tens of thousands we have injured or killed… especially when we brag about killing one “bad guy”. What is the cost of catching one terrorist (whom we helped empower with our unjust war)?

I am horrified when people seem to not care about the human cost…and I am not even addressing the awful pain to our troops, their families and friends. For what end? Personally, I think this entire war has not been about Iraq or the Middle East at all (despite the neo-cons plan). On some level, being at war justifies the infringement (or blatant removal) of individual liberties, distracts the public from the real agenda, and redistributes wealth to the private enterprises billing us billions for their work.

Whether we “win” or “lose” in iraq, the Administration got what it wanted – rubber stamp Congress, obliteration of checks and balances, and redistribution of wealth and power.

Believe it or not, I was hardly a “liberal’ before this Administration… I was all for free markets and small government. But nothing about this Administration is for freedom and small government.

Oh, back to the point… thanks egregious for working in places that many can only imagine.

Oops, just was typing my post while Christy posted hers and they refreshed at the same time. Hope it didn’t add to the “pile” -just some food for thought on the war and its cost.

(Absolutely no problem, fightgirl — I’m just reaching critical mass in terms of how many active threads I can monitor at any given time. And so glad you switched over from being reader to commenter — welcome aboard. :) — CHS)