fitz!

CSPAN – Duncan Hunter – looking at iraqi army now, we see core of strength; leadership emerging.

It’s really sad how blatant all this is. It’s all the more reason to work hard for the November elections. Once that is accomplish the next feat will be to kick people like Schumer in the ass out the door.

CSPAN – Duncan Hunter – saying we should all be united, like we were in WW2 and send the united message to the troops. Fails to mention that WW2 meant a great deal and Iraq is a waste.

now Murtha speaking…

Roosevelt said if u disagree w/ policy and u dont say anything, that’s treasonous

Murtha done, now Henry Waxman…

CSPAN – Waxman – all reasons for war turned out to be false. waste fraud and abuse have flourished in iraq. it is not being rebuilt. we have lost credibility and are viewed as occupiers.

Well look at that. It took Christy all of 2 hours to forget the “Get Real” campaign. I guess you can colour me surprised too.

NO ACTUALLY WE CAN COLOR YOU GONE. BYE BYE…

Ken was so smitten with John Stewart that he lost control of himself for a second.

Hope the movie’s over and you’re on CSPAN now — Waxman on H’burton!

Speaking of the Cheneys:

SOMETHING FOR MARY…

Dear Mary Cheney,

I understand how difficult it must be for you to walk that fine line that exists in your mind to be both queer and “acceptable” to Mom and Dad. The problem is, no matter how hard you try Mom, Dad and their Republican friends will always LOATHE you. Oh yeah, they will say they “hate the sin and love the sinner,” but DEEP DOWN they know the “sin” is attached to your chromosomes.

read more…

http://www.pinkpanthersblog.com/

CSPAN – Waxman – spent billions on reconstruction and the situation is actually getting worse. the troops needed that reconstruction $$. Halliburton – largest contractor in iraq, 3 contracts for over $3billion. got secret no bid contract of 7 billion to operate iraq oil fields. Scooter was personally briefed on this months before the war. pentagon audits show un-auditable charges exceed $1.4 billion. overcharging for basic goods… hallib’s contracts are “cost plus” – the more hallib. spends, the richer they get. informal motto is “dont worry about price, it’s cost plus”

Calling Jack Cafferty…this sounds like one for Angry Dad.

OT here, but on topic for the Gitmo posting this morning –
If any of you teach or are otherwise involved in schools, you might think about participating in the Guantanamo Teach-in that Seton Hall Law School is sponsoring on October 6. Most participants are also law faculty — but there’s some that aren’t. The primary activity will be a “virtual teach-in” which will be broadcast from S.H., but there are other activities planned and members of the Guantanamo Bay Bar Association will be available to speak.

Basic info is at http://law.shu.edu/guantanamoteachin/

Waxman takes up Dorgan’s entire theme from his 2 speeches yesterday– these guys deserve a democratic majority in November along with the rest of us!

OT…

Election Research is robopolling in Eastern WA.

Questions (from memory)

Do you support George Walker Bush?
Do you support Hilary Rodham Clinton?
Do you support not increasing taxes or decreasing them?
Do you support the right of government to take your house or church to give it to someone who will pay more taxes?
Do you support a program to give illegal immigrants a path to work and live in the US, but not citizenship?
Have you ever donated money to a political campaign or a church?
Do you consider yourself a Republican?

Wow. What a load of crap. After all, Election Research is the polling arm of ccAdvertising, connected to Grover Norquist, which was gathering data, rather than aggregating it, to use to target further political advertising, calls, solicitations, etc.

Sounds to me like they’re gathering data for their election year blitz…

twolf1 10 -

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

Long been known.

EPU’d!

Comment germane to this thread:

Duncan Hunter is talking about troop levels. It makes me think of one discrete aspect of the disaster Republican rule has been for our country.

The Rumsfeldian streamlining of the American military seems to be part of the Republican Party’s plundering of the national treasure. Please correct me if this isn’t right, but I’ve always thought these thugs like to lower the numbers of personnel and drive down their pay and benefits to cover up the sheer amount of the $$ being siphoned off the unsupervised military budget.

I live near Sacramento, CA. When I was growing up, we had two thriving bases, McLellan and Mather, as well as several other bases nearby — Travis, Beale come to mind. They were fabulous sources of civilian employment and wealth to the greater metropolitan area. The wealth generated by those bases flowed outward and fed the wealth of the community.

These days, the neighborhoods around those bases are like neighborhoods in other towns that have lost their income-producing assets. Halliburton et al are doing fine, thank you.

When are people going to see these Republican operators for the scam artists they are?

Ethics violations don’t mean anything to this government. Has Cheney broken any laws here that he can be prosecuted for?

CSPAN – Waxman – halliburton employees stayed at 5 star hotels and got fruit baskets.

“profound systemic probs” with halliburton. hallib symbolizes what has gone astray in iraq, but they r not the only contractor committing fraud in iraq – over 70 corruption investigations in iraq

OT: The daily show yesterday was superb. It should have its own entry today.

Every moment was suberb. Watched the Colbert after (only seen it twice) and it was a great chaser with what one can only hope is one of the dumber do-nothing congress people.

Re slogan: Agreeing with both Matt’s and Skippy’s ideas, I suggest our nominees go with “I[We]’ll get real for America!”

BobbyG – yes, I’m live blogging CSPAN for those who can’t watch now

Rob Zuber 17 -

Again praphrasing Leona Helmsley,

Ethics are for the little people.

Rob Zuber,Does shooting a guy in the face count?

CSPAN – Waxman – congress must b more than a cheerleading section for the white house. iraq has been a windfall for many insiders.

twolf1 @ 10:35 am (#4) – I think ole’ Duncan needs a refresher on 20th century history. The Japanese actually did attack Pearl Harbor, and the Germans actually did declare war on us.

Over 18K wounded troops so far — Waxman

Jesus.

CSPAN – Waxman – we owe more to our troops than slapping bumper stickers on our cars. we more to the families with people in iraq. the white house and congress have failed our troops, the iraqi’s and families of troops. it is shameful.

Waxman done

twolf1 -

Thanks for the play-by-play reporting.

The Cheney documents, like the Downing Street memo, will surely be dismissed by the MSM as “old news”. After all, everyone already knows he’s a corrupt liar.

CSPAN – Peter Hoekstra -threats we face r real, serious and ongoing. must face aggressively, not shy away. now defining the war w/ radical islam (didn’t they want to NOT say it was a war on islam???).

Christy– Dorgan invoked Bunnatine’s name I don’t know how many times yesterday and condemned the Senate for not caring about her or anything else when it came to waste, fraud and abuse. He had included whistleblower protection in his amendment. He brought up the fact that the person hired to do her job was incompetent and was in school now to learn about it… just another crony.

(I warned you)

I finally witnessed Jon Stewart’s live vivisection of Ken Mealymouth Mehlman. It was brilliant, absoltely brilliant and all elected Dems and their advisors should be sitting up and taking notes.

The theme he pounded over and over was, CREDIBILITY. And Ken just writhed and grimaced and twisted in the wind. Because Jon wasn’t buying anything he was saying%u2013BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!

This approach could conceivably undermine every single issue they have. It’s very potent and also fits with the “get real” theme.

I also loved how he parroted Ken’s talking points back to him. That was priceless.

LindaR,

also grew up in Sac (Land Park)let’s not forget Aerojet General was also a great area employer and community member – until many of it’s programs were decommissioned – along with Mather and McClelland

– by Bush 41 w/ Richard Cheney as Sec Def.

Oh, and Mealymouth’s “greed and cynicism” comment did not play as a joke AT ALL on the show. I didn’t even realize it was supposed to be a joke til this morning.

Hoekstra blaming the Clinton admin in the 1990’s for not connecting the dots and now dumb Heather Wilson continuing on his path of destructive remembrance.

CSPAN – Hoekstra – many attacks in the 90s. but nobody connected the dots.

-he has some charts, very basic-

yields to heather wilson R-new mexico

-war on terror didnt start on 9/11

Let’s make ads with some of those quotes from Waxman’s speech – like the wrap-up in twolf1 at 26 – we owe them more than slapping a bumper sticker on our cars.
Loved the pic of the Kuwait hotel and pool where Halliburton employees stay; says they refused to move to tents – with a/c! Waxman came out and called them shameful. Mentioned the recalled armor that already made the manufacturer rich. (I found live streaming c-span!)
Now Hoekstra – reoub – spouting nothing but talking points – we’re in a global war “against western democracy” we must do “whatever it takes” to fight them.
Aaargh, is Murtha out of time? Must have missed it while typing. Oh well, must.close.computer.now. Real.life.calls…..

CSPAN – Wilson – spewing the same stuff, talking about past attacks and how we didnt connect them.

terrorists thrive in iraq b/c it is a failed state (is that what she said?)

if so, DUH

Professor Foland @ 10:49 am (#28) – Wonder how long Tim Russert will go without discussing these documents before he calls them the “famous” Cheney documents.

Linda R @ 16

When are people going to see these Republican operators for the scam artists they are?

The bigger question is will they see it before the Military Industrial Complex has completely excised the public citizen component and transformed into a private feudal army controlled by these very same scam artists.

It is all pre-meditated. Look at the Base Relocation (BRAC) reconfigurations for patterns.

Pentagon talking points on Iraq, war on terror

An incredibly lengthy “prep book” for discussion of the Iraq war and US efforts to end terrorism has been issued to supporters in Congress, and acquired by RAW STORY.

The 74 page document seems to be an election year guide for Republicans and Democratic supporters of the war, with many of the “points” seeming to be rebuttals to arguments made by opponents of the war.

Other portions seek to categorize opponents of the war as “cut and run” advocates.

Though certain images could not, as of the time of publication, be transferred, we are making available to readers the entire Pentagon playbook for debate, which follows: …

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0615.html

Bunnatine’s story is an important one among many. Thank God someone is giving her some mention after all this time.

gleex #18: “The daily show yesterday was superb. It should have its own entry today”

Someone else here said, “It’s sad when the only real news show is a “fake” news show . . .”

Ain’t THAT the truth. More true this week than ever.

GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL
GET REAL

CSPAN – Hoekstra – quoting zarqawi and showing more charty goodness. yields to mike rogers (r-michigan)

i feel so blue

Doncha think all these speeches by the rethugs are going to be used in their re-election campaigns?

Who is Zawahari Zarqawi??? Hoekstra just said that, I swear.

woo-hoo, *ilson!

Well, this IS, after, all, a blue state-of-mind blog.

Wilson!!!! Knock it off!!!

angie – he was saying a letter from Zawahari to Zarqawi… i think

Only the terrorists and some politicians in this town want us to leave Iraq…………

NICE.

I think we’re going through a purple patch

CSPAN – the repubs aren’t saying much. seem to be bringing back the scare tactic used in the last election. get ready for elevated terror levels

cbl 32

Land Park rocks!

Yes, Aerojet, how could I forget? And thanks for spelling McClelland correctly. I always have a mental block on that one.

*ilson -
Repub Purple Prose

CSPAN – thornberry R-TX -al qaeda used internet video games to get their message out.

I predict war profiteering will be a BIG issue.

Everybody gets the juxtaposition of stealing money that our soldiers needed for body armor.

I kind of like the purple text; it matches the veins standing out on my forehead after reading about Dr. Evil.

Naomi Klein is as correct today as when she wrote the following in 2004:
_____

” The great historical irony of the catastrophe unfolding in Iraq is that the shock-therapy reforms that were supposed to create an economic boom that would rebuild the country have instead fueled a resistance that ultimately made reconstruction impossible. Bremer’s reforms unleashed forces that the neocons neither predicted nor could hope to control, from armed insurrections inside factories to tens of thousands of unemployed young men arming themselves. These forces have transformed Year Zero in Iraq into the mirror opposite of what the neocons envisioned: not a corporate utopia but a ghoulish dystopia, where going to a simple business meeting can get you lynched, burned alive, or beheaded. These dangers are so great that in Iraq global capitalism has retreated, at least for now. For the neocons, this must be a shocking development: their ideological belief in greed turns out to be stronger than greed itself.

Iraq was to the neocons what Afghanistan was to the Taliban: the one place on Earth where they could force everyone to live by the most literal, unyielding interpretation of their sacred texts. One would think that the bloody results of this experiment would inspire a crisis of faith: in the country where they had absolute free reign, where there was no local government to blame, where economic reforms were introduced at their most shocking and most perfect, they created, instead of a model free market, a failed state no right-thinking investor would touch. And yet the Green Zone neocons and their masters in Washington are no more likely to reexamine their core beliefs than the Taliban mullahs were inclined to search their souls when their Islamic state slid into a debauched Hades of opium and sex slavery. When facts threaten true believers, they simply close their eyes and pray harder…”

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

Let’s see if that fixes it.

twolf #50–well that’s the Republican ace-in-the-hole, doesn’t take ESP to see it coming, and if the Dems aren’t ready for it they will lose. They’d better start addressing their national security credentials ASAP.

This is weird, when I clicked on the read rest of entry link for this post, I got kicked to the archive of Wed, Oct. 19.

when I hit the comments link I found Y’all here.

I’m using Safari 1.2.1

I wish I beleived in God, then I would feel certain that these pukes would eventually get theirs and rot in hell.

Cheney stinks, he is rotten to the core – if he has one.

sowwy! … (puts away the gay activist’s HTML toy toolkit)

Hi Sac people. I grew up in Davis :)

This House debate is yet another colossal waste of the taxpayers’ time and money.

There’s REAL work to be done, America!

BobbyG where is Naomi Klein these days?

My ears are blowing off anyway, twolf1– one terraist beginning with Z is much the same as another beginning with Z. You know, Iraq/Iran.

Mujir, Masri, Muhajer.

Yeh, we BET you sowwy, *ilson. You bad pup, you.

Did anyone hear a caller this morning on Air America talk about visiting a resort in Boca Raton? He walked down a hall and the doors had signs “Halliburton” and “Bank of America” and I believe he said “KBR” among others. He was dining near a group of about 30 people and overheard a man say that he was not able to get something done so he went a requested and received a signed executive order so he could get it done. (Executive orders only are signed by the VP or the Pres.) Everyone laughed and cheered. The caller was so emotionally upset, so angry, that I tend to believe the veracity of the call. His voice was trembling as he said that 5 Marines had died that same day while these guys drank and cheered.

This has stayed with me all day today. We know what the administration is up to but sometimes it slaps you across the face again and this story left my cheek stinging.

CSPAN – Jo Ann Davis – Looks like barney took a dump on her dress.

talking about home grown terrorists – ie. Spain

I have a friend who grew up in Loomis. Does that count? And another friend who was married at the Baptist church in Coloma.

twolf1 @ 11:02 am (#56) – Yeah, who do Al Qaeda think they are, anyway, the U.S. Army?

Susan 60 — actually, I think the way GWBush et al act proves they don’t really believe in God.

Oh — wait. Rapture Republicans don’t think you have to be good to go to heaven. They’re from the beliefs-not-acts crowd; i.e., if you’re on our team, you’re in, and if you’re not, you’re not. End of story.

What’s the opposite of “Cut and Run”(which I have a special place in my heart for after Mean Jean’s bogus use of it against Murtha)? “Stay and Be Slaughtered”? “Stay and Kill”? “Stay and Go Broke”? “Stay and Lose MORE Respect for America?”

Oh, and as for the war against Radical Islam, somebody should point out to Peter H. that “radical” means “basic, essential or true” and there are a lot more of them than there are us, whoever “us” is.

Hey wait??? California State Prison in Sacramento?

No such place, unless it’s one of their secret prisons.

come on now, it’s the poor chump’s version of the Mary Matalin outer space flowie. Poofy like the content of her home grown terrorism threat speech.

CSPAN – they are pushing the notion that terrorists use technology to get their message out. like those crazy dee vee dee things and all the internets. they even download videos!!!

Wow Dee–it really is as bad as we think.

Which show was that on? (Not all air at the same time everywhere.)

Yes, *ilson!

Color me rainbow (kind if like reality).

I like the Real theme. It needs a good foundation to support it, too:

-Sincerity about views/goals
-Open government up to more scrutiny than citizens’ personal lives
-Face our real threats where direct action is needed and is failing now (in ports, in opium fields, with under-funded police forces, etc)
-Real leadership for real peoples’ needs, not for corporations and cronies

uh-oh Joann says they are using the media like the internets to divide this country.

Al-scooter 69

I went to Del Oro High School in Loomis. A lot of my friends’ parents worked at Aerojet, in fact.

EPU’d
Christy, I tried their archives in every possible combination and couldn’t get to it. I couldn’t even get the June 14, 2006 page to come up. The re-cycle truck just picked up the papers so out of luck their. I think the quote came from your first post on monday and remember the the quote in the paper ended with some like ‘until you here from PJF its not over’ or words to that effect. Sorry, I couldn’t do better, but the upside is that someone at the RMN is reading your blog so they haven’t all drunk the koolaid – yet!

I too despise the “Cut and Run” slogan — what about “Cut and Walk Away Fast” ?

susan 64 -

She writes for The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Colu…..991,0.html

Thanks, Rubber Soul — appreciate you trying to find it. Just wanted to know the topic. Every once in a while something makes its way around to the right side of the thought processes, and I’m always curious to know why and what catches on. Really appreciate the follow-up from you. :)

froggermarch–I like, “Stay and be Slaughtered”

Dems should bring up the “V”-word more often in this context. Iraq really is becoming a Vietnam. Do we want to be there 20 years??

twolf1 @ 11:07 am (#77) – And I’ll bet they download from, oh what’s it called, Napster!! Clearly, they’ll stop at nothing to destroy our way of life.

Someone needs to ask about the capacity of army special forces. They are depleted.

New headline (no link yet) on RS:

Exclusive: Pentagon confirms Iranian ‘directorate’ office; Neocon says he met prominent Iranian exile; Intel officials worry plans underway: 2 PM ET…

If what we were doing in Iraq – or anywhere else – were actually having an effect on terrorism, I might be able to see their point, but it’s not.

I do, however, feel terrorized every time I have to write a check for my health insurance, buy gas for my car, pay the electric company. Food costs more, tuitions are going up. Medication costs more. My mom’s on a waiting list for a retirement community, and by the time she gets to the top of the list, the housing boom will be bust, and she won’t be able to afford to move.

And while we are all reaching deeper into our pockets, dipping into savings, trying to make those miniscule raises – if we even got raises – stretch to cover the rising cost of just being, I keep having to read about this public official or that just flat-out stealing from us all, and getting away with it.

This is gonna be one long, hot summer, and there are no signs that anyone is finding this crap any easier to tolerate.

REALLY CRANKY TODAY. GRRRRR.

BobbyG – thanks, she hasn’t written anything for awhile and she was contributing to the Nation too but I haven’t seen anything by her in recently. Figured maybe she’s writing a book

froggermarch – Think I’ll go with “Stay and get other people’s kids killed”.

Cujo359 – tomorrow’s headline – RIAA drops 500 lb. bombs on baghdad because they mistakenly thought al qaeda downloaded copies of “Bombs over Baghdad”

Last night at 6pm a bunch of us local peace activists planted 2500 small American flags (with a black ribbon) on a large grassy area in the park outside the National American Legion Headquarters … we left them : they are still all out there at noon today …

And may I ask how fine a line it is to have Republicans on the floor of the House bitching about GHWB’s Iraq policy and calling it, repeatedly, an historic blunder? Is it me, or is this not the most prudent of moves on their part — given the fact that so many of George the First’s buddies have been holding their tongues only for Junior’s sake. Hello, Stormin’ Norman, James Baker, Brent Scowcroft and everyone else who has been appalled by Junior’s idiocy and piss poor planning and accountability — time to take off the gloves. Someone has more than earned it.

Okay – I give up – third time im moderation today.

Thank you ilson46201

Oscarsmom @ #75 – I was driving to work a little late so it had to be Jerry Springer except he had a sub in today…I think last name started with an H… (around 915AM Eastern time)

This is war:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c…..rop15.html
“Sobering advice to Democrats with a blogging problem”

” . . . We don’t want that to happen to Ned Lamont, who is challenging Sen. Joe Lieberman in the Connecticut Democratic primary. The blogs have turned the Greenwich entrepreneur into a serious contender, and bless them for that. But now things get dangerous. Lamont is running a television ad in which he is joined by jubilant young supporters, including the DailyKos’s Markos Moulitsas, who mugs at length for the camera. That’s cute, but stop right there.

Lamont is the best kind of liberal candidate. He’s for universal health coverage and all the other good things, but comes at the issues from a sophisticated business perspective. It’s not healthy for his campaign to become overly identified with the hothead dramatics and childish expletives of the lefty blogs.”

Plus lots of other fighting words . . .

CSPAN – murtha- we have to make sure the rhetoric doesnt get ahead of the facts

http://www.bgladd.com/Bush_Mal…..ign_ad.jpg

http://www.bgladd.com/Bush_Mal….._em_on.jpg

http://www.bgladd.com/Bush_Mal….._TWICE.jpg

Murtha just pointed out GHWB’s blunders in terms of the cuts to intelligence, Christy.

Let’s not let our rhetoric get ahead of the facts.

Jerry Springer on Air America??????

CSPAN – Rahm Emanuel D-Ill – Rep congress suffers from the soft bigotry of low expectations

they see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil – the congress walked away from its oversight responsibility. the was has turned out to be the opposite of what it was billed as.

he is talking too fast for my typing :(

Pentagon confirms Iranian directorate as officials raise new concerns about war

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0615.html

“hothead dramatics and childish expletives of the lefty blogs”

Hahahahahahahohohohohohoheeheeheeheeheehawhawhaw…

To words: mAnn Coulter

angie at 101 — I’m not saying there weren’t errors on GHWB’s part. But the GOP folks are the ones bringing up the historic blunders in not “finishing the job” in Iraq. That’s a HUGE sore spot for the GHWB crowd — and what I’m saying is, I’m not sure it is wise to poke that sort spot with a sharp stick like they are doing today. There are reasons they didn’t want to invade and occupy Iraq — and we are living the results of those reasons every single day.

Tony Snow on 2500 American troops lost in Iraq ….

“It’s a number”

Yes, you pathetic excuse for a human, it’s a number of fathers, husbands, sons, brothers, mothers, wives, and sisters.

CSPAN – mike rogers – scare tactics – “the terrorists will behead you” – and thats a quote

CSPAN – mike rogers – “our soldiers are fighting the WoT in military uniforms in iraq so our children don’t have to fight it here in their school uniforms”

Mike Rogers (R) Michigan asks (derisively) “Where were we four years ago?”

I don’t think Republicans want to be asking that question.

Four years ago:

How many of our soldiers were dead in Iraq?

What were interest rates?

What was the national debt?

How much was gasoline per gallon? Oil barrel?

Where, to put it bluntly, was Nick Berg’s head?

I think Get Real is very good, but I’m even more for CHANGE THE COURSE.

People shy away from Dems bc they have been too passive and no one thinks they will effect changes.

People wait to hear them get some backbone and stand for something. Well – taking the “stay the course” idiot theme head on gives them that ability.

CHange the course – before we go off the end of the cliff.

Change the course – before America’s debtor status is out of control.

Change the course – and actually find Bin Laden.

Change the course – and deal with criminals like Zarqawi before you start a war instead of taking Bush’s option of skipping the 6 or so chances to deal with Zarqawi until after he was able to start a war that made billions for his corporate backers.

Change the course – before we create more terrorists.

Change the course – before America becomes known as a state sponsor of torture.

Change the course – before social security is destroyed.

Change the course – that has given us six years with no discernible stock market growth.

Change the course – before we have rampant inflation.

Change the course – to address the needs of the American middle class and the poor.

Change the coures – to get government out of people’s private lives.

Change the course – before the draft.

Change the course – while we still can.

I agree with you. Wonder what poppy is thinking today as he listened to good ole Henry Hyde. The second line of my 100 was a direct quote from Murtha– not my words to you! Time for the old timers to unlock their lips of loyalty!

twolf1 at 110 — that was the point where I said fuck you to my television set. How dare he. And how dare he say anything to Murtha about his service…

CSPAN – mike rogers – Lets not come home in humiliation because we have a november deadline.

Murtha speaking now – “This is rhetoric”

christy, yes, they are hard to take. their pointless crap.

geez, my 111 was in response to you Christy!

“Lets not come home in humiliation”

I got news for this asshole: the humiliation of the U.S. moral ideal is already extant, thanks to BushCo.

About the connecting the dots in the 1990s and Clinton, it is generally forgotten how Republicans hamstrung Clinton in his responses to terrorists. Anyone remember the charges of “Wag the Dog” when Clinton made any attempt to do so.

I have always thought that Republicans in their obsession to attack Clinton bear great moral responsibility for 9-11. During the Clinton years, to them political games seemed so much more important than distracting terrorists who were, after all, so far away. When Bush was elected, he immediately downgraded what emphasis Clinton had placed on terrorism. Then the terrorists struck and Bush became overnight a “wartime” President and the master of national security.

It will not be the terrorists who do us in. It will be stupidity and bad memory.

hugh 118 — right on.

Let’s not let our rhetoric get ahead of the facts.
was a Murtha quote, no?

Reasons to stay in Iraq: we don’t want to be humiliated (yes, pride is a great reason to keep bringing kids home in body bags) and ending the madness will mean those 2,500 deaths were in vain (given that victory is never going to be realized, all these deaths have been suffered in the vain pursuit of an egomaniac’s misguided dream).

CSPAN – “preaching cut and run is killing americans” – some republican

Anne, are you sure you’re in moderation, or only “pinked”?

CSPAN – Murtha getting pissed now. very pissed. now he’s yelling.

Exxcuse me, did these chuckleheads now bashing GHWB forget Dick Cheney was his Sec/Def and may have had a hand in the decision to “not finish the job” ? jeebus

Iran Directorate – it would have been within the context of the story for them to remind everyone -

Liz Cheney also heads the Iran-Syria Operations Group (ISOG), a unit within the State Department’s Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs. ISOG has an $80 million budget to promote democracy in Iran and to develop administration policy for Iran and Syria.[2](Wiki)

oh did I mentioned she’s married to DHS General Counsel ?

Yes, Dru! Hey there!

CSPAN – good thing murtha yielded his time, i think his blood pressure was getting a little too high.

anotherpawn – Christy fixed it quickly, but yes, I was in moderation. All is well!

(thanks, Christy – sorry to be a repeat offender today!)

Sorry, Oscarsmom, believe it or not! LOL
http://www.springerontheradio.com/

“Lets not come home in humiliation”

Neville Chamberlain -”Peace In Our TIme”

Nixon/Kissinger – “Peace WIth Honor”

I really hate when our deja keeps vuing

Anne — no problem. And I’ve checked each of the comments that have gotten stuck, and can’t find a reason why they keep getting snagged. Sometimes, our spam software just mysteriously traps stuff for reasons beyond my tech abilities to understand.

Clyburn did a great job– until the people of Iraq are sufficiently involved in the rebuilding of their country, we will never succeed.

Regarding “Get Real” from the last thread, I think the basic idea is great – if we use it wisely. If we don’t, I also think that skippy is right about it backfiring on us. It could come across in precisely that arrogant, in-your-face way that skippy fears.

So, a small suggestion – “Let’s Get Real.” Let’s get real solutions to real problems; let’s get real government; etc., etc., as others have already said so well. But we need to use this wonderful idea in an inclusive way, to posit ourselves as sharing in the problems as well as being part of the solution.

For Democratic politicians, it will be especially important – and powerful – for them frame the issue this way, to walk the talk of getting real. They must be willing to hold themselves accountable, to say, “It’s time for Washington to get real – and we mean to do it.”

To be continued in next comment . . .

Speaking of dejas vuing, here’s a cut from the story I linked to at 105:

A recent trip by Michael Ledeen to Rome has raised red flags among those concerned about a potential war with Iran. Some believe that Ledeen — a long-time advocate of Iranian regime change — was involved in the Niger forgeries scandal.

In late 2001, Ledeen, mid-east expert Harold Rhode and Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin (who later pleaded guilty to passing classified information to a Washington pro-Israel lobby) traveled to Rome to meet with Iranian arms dealer Manucher Ghorbanifar and various Italian, Iranian, and Egyptian intelligence agents.

Not long after, documents falsely purporting that Iraq had attempted to buy yellowcake uranium surfaced in the international intelligence community, ending up at an Italian magazine, Panorama, for which Ledeen wrote periodic articles. Ghorbanifar and Ledeen were directly involved in the Iran-Contra scandal of the 1980s, which implicated then-President Ronald Reagan, Vice President George H. W. Bush and the highest ranking members of the Reagan administration in the illegal sales of weapons to Iran.

Ledeen’s recent visit to Rome and meeting with Ghorbanifar have created new concern that something is developing with regard to US plans for Iran. Ledeen, however, denies that his visit to Italy was anything other than a personal trip with his wife Barbara. …

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0615.html

These people aren’t even trainables!

Getting Real, Part 2:

This will allow Democrats, if they’re smart, to do precisely what Christy and Jane keep saying they should (and must) – offer a politics of contrast, and give people something to vote for. “The GOP won’t get real about Iraq, but we will – and here’s how.” Repeat for all other issues in the Democratic platform.

But for us in the blogosphere, it will also, I think, be necessary and important to frame it as an “us” statement – “Let’s get real” rather than the imperative, “You get real.” Not that the former isn’t the idea behind the phrase in the first place, but explicitly phrasing it this way will, I think, circumvent the response skippy is concerned about.

What say you all?

Oscarsmom @64, Hi from Sac. How long since you’ve been in Davis?

LindaR @16 – When I was a kid, we went to Beale every month to do grocery shopping. We would buy stuff in bulk and put it in big freezers in our cellar. And once a year we’d buy school clothes there as well. That base allowed my mom to feed a family of six on a limited budget. I don’t know just what we would have done if no base had been in the area.

CSPAN – todd tiahrt – if we leave iraq, it would be a victory for al qaeda. We didnt choose to go in to iraq, thats where the war on terra went. blah blah fucking blah.

al qaeda sent many resources into iraq b/c that is where they want to fight.

Murtha – problem is, the opposite is happening. The military can’t win this war, even general pace says we cant win it. It’s the way we r doing it that I have a problem with it.

OT – lhp: When I floated a secret pardon possiblity it was not so much that I think it is what has happened, it is just that it was one of the many things that I could imagine having happened that would be out of the control of the prosecutor or that might prevent a public statement – it was floated in response to the rumblings that the Prosecutor was operating as a partisan. I think that if it was done before the indictment – maybe while negotiations ongoing – and delivered with a direction it is to be classified (all just spec, not what I think happened) then the Prosecutor could not talk about it. Maybe he could file with a court to request a ruling as to whether it is valid to keep it secret, but he couldn’t talk until a ruling and maybe not after.

It’s just one of the many things I could think of – some even positive – that might generate the Mexican standoff on statements. I do think that something will happen in the LIbby case soon with regard to what is going on, bc of the still pending discovery request from Libby re: Rove’s GJ testimony that Walton indicated he would address later – he was going to continue with GJ secrecy for now bc he thought it Rove would be wrapping soon.

I agree with you that we have had a progression – from Watergate to Iran Contra (which I also think was worse just on its face and that’s without any inside scoop).

Things may or may not be over on Libby/Rove et al. I do think that, if the Prosecutor was ready to send Matt Cooper to jail (as well as Miller) he should have had a pretty d*mn good case to back that up (journalists in jail, even Judy Miller and even for what she did, opens doors that you only want to use for absolute emergencies IMO). So if he’s not going forward IMO he has structured something that means Rove isn’t going to be charged by him and he has to bite his tongue until it is all done cooking, or he’s been blocked and he’s trying to figure out something else, or even a combination of the two.

CSPAN – john larson – calling the republicans B/S today a “sham” — with all their charts. said it used to be that speakers would stand up and speak from their hearts, not from notes and with charts.

Praising Murtha (yay!) for speaking the truth to the people, leveling with the people.

Re Naomi Klein – where is she?

Susan @64 & Bobby G @84:

She has archives of articles at The Guardian and at The Nation, but nothing published either place in 2006. Her Nologo web site hasn’t been updated this year either. Although her Wikipedia entry has been updated within the last week, I can’t figure out what that update might have been.

The last time I saw her on Democracy Now, where she’s been a regular, was back around February. So, she’s up to something – maybe a new book or movie.

Klein is one of the most clear-headed thinkers alive.

John Larson really getting to the point and calling the GOP on their political tactics.

CSPAN – john larson – blasting republicans for bringing karl roves talking points sandwiched between a photo op this AM and a picnic tonight.

-awesome-

-right out of a playbook – attack murtha. it worked against kerry. it’ll work against murtha…..

Larson– you bring a political document to the floor sandwiched between Rove in NH and the preznit photo op and a picnic this evening.

Attack Jack Murtha– it worked against Cleland and Kerry, sure that will work!

KBR: Kellogg, Brown and Root. George Rufus Brown, former head of Brown and Root was a strong opponent of FDR. Brown eventually sold his company, Brown and Root to the Halliburton Company which got most of the contracts to build military bases in Vietnam during that war. In the 60’s and 70’s George Brown served as director of Halliburton,Armco Steel, Lousianna Land and Exploration Company, IT&T, TWA, First City Bancorporation and the Highland Oil Company. According to The Education Forum, “George Brown made a fortune out of the corrupt activities of Lyndon B. Johnson. He provided a lot of the funds for LBJ’s successful election campaigns”. Brown and Root also gave funds to Johnson to “steal” the 1948 Senate contest from C.R. Stevenson. In return for their money, LBJ, after winning the senate race provided assistance for steering a very lucrative dam project their way. KBR/Halliburton, the friends and “owners” of Bush and Cheney are still cheating us Murcans and laughing all the way to their banks.

eeewwwww… a karl rove sandwich. must taste like rancid bacon

(paging the GOP – your Kool-Aid refill is ready!)

Ye gods, WHO is that airhead from Florida?

CSPAN – Bill Young R Fla – using 9/11 again

Bill Young, dingleberry.

CSPAN – Bill Young R Fla – still yapping but having no point.

-there are heros in iraq and afghanistan

Oh, Bill Young, from over around Alligator Bag country. Content-free pufferfish.

Careful with the “cut and run” opposites — many of them sound way too much like “stay and lose,” which even if our incompetent leadership might make it true, isn’t a useful thing to be associated with.

The thing to try to convey is that Bush’s “stay the course” isn’t leadership, it’s stubbornness. There is no “cut and run,” there’s only a president who is too cowardly and stubborn to consider that any course, other than one he decided on three years ago when conditions were far different, could possibly be right.

Ask him again, “What was your biggest mistake?” I’m betting the answer is still that he can’t think of any. That’s what the American people need to hear.

Sac / Loomis folks -

have y’all seen Loomis lately ? million $$ homes and one of the best school districts in the State. Granite Bay was once where ya gave the guys a couple bucks to take your trash, and a dear friend lives on land in Antelope where my family used to pheasant hunt -

and for all those still there – FDL regular; John in Sacramento has a site called Sacramento for Democracy

http://www.sacramentofordemocracy.org/

CSPAN – Bill Dung – still has no point. “America understands the threat.” –and he’s done.

now Jane Harman will speak for 30 mins!

Mary,
Re: that last paragraph, That’s what has been on my mind all morning.
And it is really interfering with the brief I am supposed to be working on. Sigh!

CSPAN – Jane Harman – we created a failed state in iraq. troops inadequately equipped and no exit strategery.

I did not know we had soldiers in Pakistan! Harman said so.

Hey Mary,

I NEVER want to come up on the other side from you in a courtroom. *g*

Harman: Politicization of intelligence by this administration.

cherrypicked, hyped the threat!

CSPAN – Jane Harman – not only was intel bad but it was politicized. the bushco cherry picked intel and nobody has been held accountable for the failures.

CSPAN – Jane Harman – taliban fighters are reconstituting themselves in afghanistan (were they freeze dried?)

I think someone should call the Republican on their understanding of wth is going on.

Ask them to have one of their luminaries to IDENTIFY the 9/11 hijackers – if not by name, by country at least. Then tell us which of those countries we invaded.

Ask them what country already has nuclear weapons and has a huge contingent loyal to bil Laden.

Ask them why GWB did not go after Zarqawi any of the times he had the chance and why Franks bungled the Tora Bora assault.

Ask them WHY Tenet got the medal of Freedom. Ask them where the President was when he go a memo that Bin Laden was wanting to strike and what he did (and if it helped his tan) when he was briefed on that information.

Ask them why they refuse to subpoena or investigate the missing billions in Iraq.

Put it in their court and ever so often, have someone re-identify the questions they aren’t answering. WHen they do try to work in their “al-Qaeda was in Iraq” answers, push it right back down their throats.

Ask them if Rumsfeld told the truth when he said WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE, about the WMD.

Ask them WHEN the President is going to release the mobile biolabs report that shows that the administration misinformed or lied to the American people for months claiming there were mobile weapons labs when they were sitting on a report that said the opposite.

Ask them how many lies and cover ups it will take before the Republicans get involved enough in the death of our soldiers and threat to our nation to actually ask a president the tough questions and respond when he lies or withholds information.

Ask them, if they aren’t up to the job, why not hand it over to someone who can do it.

I know that some folks here don’t like Harman for her social issue politics, but she’s quite good on defense issues. (I have a soft spot for fellow Smithies, I think, but damn this is a good speech at the moment…)

CSPAN – todd tiahrt … We didnt choose to go in to iraq, thats where the war on terra went.

When all else fails, lie, eh?

if we leave iraq, it would be a victory for al qaeda.

Another good reason we shouldn’t have gone there.

looseheadprop,

Good to see you back in comments; I hope you’re feeling better.

CSPAN – Jane Harman – tactical victories arent enough, we need new strategy. need to replace rummy – its long overdue

Yes, the Taliban were freeze dried, maintained and recruited very nicely in Pakistan, our bestest friend…

Whatever her faults, Jane Harmon is on fire!

Harman has been in the tank about a lot of the recent spying abuses, but I have no problem giving her props when she does good.

http://politicalwire.com/archi…..logan.html

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D) “raised eyebrows Tuesday when she used a campaign phrase suggested for the Democrats early this year by former Speaker Newt Gingrich,” reports The Hill.

“Democratic candidates for Congress across the country have been employing the phrase ‘Had Enough?’ in speeches and on their campaign websites.”

However, Democratic strategist James Carville “can also claim credit for the phrase. He wrote a book published in 2003 titled Had Enough? A Handbook for Fighting Back.”

It does totally blow me away that so little has been said about Afghanistan in this entire debate.

O/T

a little good news –

Ohio’s Blackwell feeling the polling heat ?

http://www.rawstory.com/showar…..tstory.jsp

Leslie in CA,

I for one like your idea of inclusion and “Let’s get real.” The point is to unite and not accuse.

CSPAN – now the gooper rick renzi appears to have a ww2 propaganda poster next to him.

http://www.archives.gov/public…..-do-it.jpg

OT – just received from one of my Senators in response to my e-mail re: net neutrality:

Thank you for contacting me in support of network neutrality and free and open access to the Internet. I appreciate hearing from you about this issue.

I understand your concern that the Internet should not favor certain content or services over others. I believe that the Internet is not only an important tool, but a vital resource. It has allowed millions of Americans to communicate instantly with people around the world. It has put access to libraries of information at everyone’s fingertips. The use of the Internet continues to grow, and the ways we use it continue to expand. I want everyone to have the opportunity to tap into this important resource, and do not want to stifle its development or use.

Your views on network neutrality will be very helpful to me as Congress considers this issue. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you again in the future.

Sincerely,
Barbara A. Mikulski
United States Senator

OK, Brother Renzi, WHY has al Qaeda metastasized?

BECAUSE YOUR BUDDIES WOULDN’T FINISH IT OFF AT TORA BORA, DOOF!

Rosie the Riviter? How exactly have those of us who do not have a family member fighting in uniform at the moment been asked to sacrifice ANYTHING? Who is this clown with no understanding of history?

CSPAN – Ricky the Riviter – the taliban was defeated in afghanistan. hmmmm- why are they coming back then?

I get the feeling Rick Renzl is seeing his speech for the very first time.

Harman brought up some good points (and I don’t care for her much – I think the Winograd challenge was the best thing that could have happened to her though and she knows Marcy has a base now, and that everyone is watching – it’s made her a better Rep IMO).

LHP – good luck with the brief. It will all be what it will be. I’ve never even had a tiny desire to litigate or even do anything other than briefing on appellate work. ;-)

YOu think you & all of us have it bad – imagine the jurors on that GJ!

Oh, boy – Renzi drawing parallels to WWII?

Come on, this is ridiculous.

If we played that game where you had to take a drink every time certain phrases were used, we’d all be trying to use the keyboard from the floor.

CSPAN – harman yielding time (3 mins) to leonard boswell. talking to murtha about Nam

Do any of these ninconpoop Repubs actually talk to troops on the ground in Iraq?

My business partner’s daughter is in the 101st Airborne in Iraq, which is her THIRD tour. She was here in Utah on a pass the last two weeks and I asked her point blank if things were worse on the ground there now compared to her first tour. She said ABSOLUTLEY YES…WAAAAAAAAAAAY worse.

And I quote her here: “We used to be able travel off base and get out and about around everyday Iraqis, they trusted us in the first year or so. Now we NEVER go off base and the majority of Iraqis want us out.”

I also asked her if the war was winnable, she laughed and said “What War?” By that she explained that there IS no war because there is NO mission, NO clearly defined enemy, etc.

She said that everyone in her unit for the most part is just biding their time until they can go home, get out of the Army, if they can anyway.

This coming from an idealistic young woman who turned down full-ride scholarships to college to sign up with the 101st. Her father was in the 82nd Airborne and Grand Father in the 101st Airborne in WWII, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, etc.

Sure sounds like Vietnam to me and I was born in 1969 and have only read about it. GRRRRRRRR

Be nice if Boswell could tell that this isn’t about him . . .

interesting:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..tegy-book/

Going INTO Iraq handed al-Qaeda a victory it could never have won on its own and Republicans need to quit handing over victories to criminals and terrorists.

Iraq was a huge moral and legal and ethical and intelligence mistake. Only a coward tries to hide his mistakes. If REpublicans can’t get over their cowardice and quit handing out medals and ribbons to people who made mistakes, while they are firing and punishing people who told the truth, then they are just too cowardly to handle the war.

Show any instance of Republican Moral courage in connection with the war. Any.

link didn’t work, twolf1 — got another?

I’m with Leslie with “Let’s Get Real” in #136. Much better than “Get Real”

Mary @ 11:26 am (#112) – I wrote this the other day at Taylor’s site:

[T]hat’s why I think of her [Hillary] as Bill Clinton without the engaging personality. That was the knock on Bill as well, that he had convictions but wouldn’t let you know what they were by standing by them. It worked for him, I think, because he was so good at engaging people. For Hillary, it doesn’t work, at least not as a candidate. Supposedly, she’s effective as a Senator, although it’s hard to tell when the Democrats have been in the minority so much.

For me, the bottom line is that we don’t need “art of the possible”-type politics right now. We need to change direction, which means there needs to be someone at the top of the Democratic Party who is willing to make that change happen. That’s why I tend to favor the Feingolds and Kerrys over the Clintons and Edwards.

So any slogan that says “change is coming” is good with me. I have the same problem many people do with “get real”. It works on young people, it doesn’t work on those of us who’ve already decided they know what “real” is. If you say “get real” and I don’t think your view is realistic, you become a putz in my estimation. Somehow, I think that’s how most people are once they reach a certain age.

It’s days like these when I’m glad I don’t have a TV. I can barely tolerate the brief audio clips I hear on the radio once the Congressional “Super-Patriot God-Squad” gets going with their “wornterra” BS. Thanks for watching (and live-blogging) y’all, so I don’t have to.

OT – This doesn’t look good for what’s left of the 4th amendment:
High court gives police more power.

Can’t recall who said it: Democracy fails when the people discover they can loot the treasury.

In the case of the USA, the people who made that discovery are Smirky, Big Dick, and all their friends.

currently lead story on http://www.thinkprogress.org

Pentagon tried to ‘recall’ Iraq strategy book
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0615.html

oops…

here:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..tegy-book/

Got it — thanks, twolf.

Why do you mean people hate America?

I’m with you Cujo. I say take every one of their gamesmanship marketing phrases and shove it right back at them with a twist that means they dont’ find it nearly so comfy anymore.

There’s always:

Hey IDIOTS – You have to HAVE a course first!

“Congressman Murtha, we salute you for your extraordinary leadership.” (Anna Eshoo, D-California)

Hey, Steny! Can you say “Majority Leader”?

#153…

I grew up on Folsom Lake and Granite Bay. And worked for Placer County in Auburn and Tahoe City. The last ime I was in Loomis was about two years ago. And to tell the truth, it makes me sick what has been done to the whole Loomis, Rocklin, Folsom Lake, Lincoln, Tahoe, and the the rest of Placer County. This is progress? Of course I realize Placer County is mainly in the hands of Republicans. And their definition of progress has always been radically different than mine. Oh well…

Cheney: “Ethics? I don’t need no stinkin’ ethics.”

CSPAN -Anna Eshoo – congress has “cut and run” on oversight

OK – 198

You don’t know the half of it! Our rep is John Doolittle, gawdsake. It is red-state, bornagain Rapture Republican territory, and it’s horrific. As soon as I can get out of here I’m going to.

Where is a great place to live with average house prices under 200K? (luckily, I can take my job with me)

love, love, love Anna Eshoo – worked on her first campaign

CSPAN – Rush Holt D-NJ- stating all the changing reasons for the Iraq war

Ooo, that Rush Holt is GOOD.

CSPAN – Rush Holt – history will remember this war as a colossal blunder. the war is not making us safer, it is not making iraq safer. even 7th graders in NJ understand that.

Where is a great place to live with average house prices under 200K? (luckily, I can take my job with me)

believe Oregon has at long last closed it’s borders to the Cali hordes, Nevada has almost caught up in housing costs

check out Austin ! – a blue sea of progressive tranquility in the underbelly of the red state beast and plenty of tech jobs

CSPAN – Darrell Issa (n asshole) ;) – …making a point, I think…. unlike murtha, didnt serve in combat but was in army. blah blah blah. would rather be punished for doing something than punished for doing nothing.

LindaR #201

You can get a great house here in Salt Lake City, Utah for under 200K!

LOL!

shoogarp 208 — you crack me up!

I hear there is some cheap property in New Orleans

Been over to Glenn’s today?

Specter falsely denied proposing amnesty for the Administration’s illegal eavesdropping

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..ng_15.html

Try Lake Placid Florida. Great place–quiet, no traffic, hardly any stores. Three restaurants, no malls.

LindaR – I actually live in Park City, Utah which is quite progressive. Our own little blue island in a sea of Red. Unfortunately, all of the millionaries trying to get as far as they can from Dead Eye are fleeing Jackson Hole and driving up housing prices here. Average home price in Summit County around 650K. Ouch! Needless to say, I rent.

shooogarp,

Hey, I LIKE Utah. Then again, I don’t live there ; )

We have two traffic lights.

“Where is a great place to live with average house prices under 200K?”

Rochester NY, & honk if you like winter!

LindaR #201
Try Hannibal Missouri

OT: It was a busy day in Wingnuttia yesterday. Ann Coulter made a typically nasty exhibition of herself on Leno. Peter Daou has an opinion about that, which one might say is a call to arms:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..html#a8722

Oh, and here’s a tidbit from Media Matter’s Coulter bio:

Coulter first came to national prominence as a legal correspondent and pundit for MSNBC, which fired her for insulting a Vietnam veteran.

She’s some babe, huh?

Michelle Malkin said that the Democrats and Take Back America booed the troops. Taylor Marsh explains, with a slight assist from YT, why she doesn’t have a clue what she’s writing about (as usual):

http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc…..p?id=24150

Just goes to show that it’s a lot easier to make shit up than it is to clean it up.

This is fabulous. I really am looking for a place to relocate, and I will check out every town you guys have mentioned. Sorry for the personal, OT infogrub, but wow this is so helpful!!

lotus #20

I gave the slogan to a candidate at YK and he used it. The crowd seemed to like it. I saw heads moving in agreement. I didn’t get a chance to see him afterward to see what he thought.

From the National Review:
snip:
Senator Lieberman knows that Ned Lamont is for real. A few days ago, Lieberman told reporters that he is refusing to rule out leaving the Democratic Party to continue his run for re-election as an Independent. In fact, he told reporters that he is not “going to close out any options.” 3 While that’s his prerogative, it’s still outrageous. Joe Lieberman seems to believe that he is entitled to keep his Senate seat, and he’s open to leaving the party to do so.

http://sixers.nationalreview.c…..E5ZThmNzM=

Lobstergirl @ 12:16 pm (#195) – Why do you mean people hate America?

Cause that’s what us mean people do.

LindaR…201

I feel for you. I really do. I keep up w/ Placer County and Ca. politics in general. I went to A.R., Sac City, Chico State, and Sacto State. So I’ve still got a lot of connections there. But I could never live there again. It’s just too much. It’s sad. Where I live now I teach in a public school. It’s like being in a time warp. My English class consists of 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grades all at the same time in the same room. My Algebra class is composed of juniors and seniors, at the same time too. And you can buy a nice brick home for less than $80,000. But there are trade-offs to be sure. And get this—last week I was gone for two days and nights and forgot to lock my front door. And everything was just as it was, when I returned.

Mary #112.

Have I mentioned how enamored I am of you lately.

God you’re brilliant.

Maybe you should be a congress-critter? I’d walk 1,000 miles barefoot to put you in a position to help make a difference. You’d eat those clowns for lunch.

There are distinct advantages to living in UT (I lived in SLCUT in the mid-90s).

It is every bit as beautiful as Boulder, CO (provided you’re not looking directly toward the copper pit). And on Sunday mornings, you have the entire mountain to yourself.

Linda R-
I wish I could recommend Oregon but housing prices haven’t slowed a bit yet. Plus, all the locals would kill me for suggesting another Californian should move here. lol

Service needed on aisle #218. I was immoderate again.

Good on Joe Crowley.

Shatter that myth that 9/11 had ANYTHING to do with Iraq.

CSPAN – Joe Crowley kicking ass for 1 minute. asked what about OBL?

Mary: Sealed vs. Sealed involving Gonzales as WH Counsel….tantalizing! I likes. It’s so hard with this crowd to pick the most offensive and dangerous, but my money is often on Gonzales.

Back at the intersection of Greed & Cynicism:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/…..usat_x.htm

Now that we have millions of veterans with stolen credit data, Congress is going to take away the rights of citizens in many states to put a freeze on their credit?

That, plus net neutrality, is ANYONE in Congress doing anything for normal people?

Under a typical Republican propagandized heading, the “Financial Data Protection Protection Act of 2006” is set to take away consumer rights to protect their credit unless the FIRST PROVE they have been victims of identity theft.

“It’s like telling someone you can’t put a deadbolt on your front door until after you’ve been burglarized,” says Washington state Attorney General Rob McKenna.

It’s also like — Federal Gov TROMPLING protections being put in place by states, all to economically benefit the credit industry (who I guess didn’t make out well enough with the slimey Bankruptcy reform bill they got with a box of chocolates earlier).

Actually proving the theft of your information isn’t even enough. Read that part one more time. Proving the theft of your info will NOT ALLOW YOU TO FREEZE IT.

Instead, “Under the bill, backed by the financial services industry, simply having your data lost or stolen isn’t enough. You must file a police report describing a specific instance of it being used to commit a crime. Gosh, who would have ever thought that bill was “backed by the financial services industry?”

So, it has to have ALREADY been used to commit a crime before you can object to, and take actions over, your information being stolen.
Argh.

Urban – we need pirates more than Congresscritters I think.*g* It’s a “fight fire with fire thing.”

Lotus, looking back at your post at 41, Pentagon issuing talking points text-book to pro-war mouthpieces on both sides of the fence.

Isn’t it a bit out of place for the pentagon to be dictating political dialogue to both sides ? Does that mean that america is now in the pentagon’s sights as a theater of war ?

Maybe this is old news that the pentagon is acting this way, but it still creeps me out.

emptywheel, how’s your name-the-Repug-mouthpiece contest coming?

EPU’d from last thread:

Because I want to get the “GET REAL” campaign slogan out to someone who’ll actually DO something about it, I used the Democrats.com email link to Howard Dean. Copied the link to this essay and also Matt O.’s slogan, with Christy’s followup paragraph.

If you’d like to add your voice to mine, try this link: http://www.democrats.org/page/…..man/fqbszv

Thanks!

Mary @ 12:16 pm (#196) – Hey IDIOTS – You have to HAVE a course first!

Or, as someone suggested yesterday, frame it as a question: “Oh, we have a course?”

emptywheel 224 -

UT is indeed beautiful. My company HQ is in SLC, so I go there a lot (I work in the Vegas office). It’s starting to get real busy though, a lot of out-of-state real estate investors. Prices are escalating. And there’s a large influx of CA and NV refugees.

UT skiing is awesome (I mostly ski in the south at Brian Head, but I learned to ski at Snowbird).

It’s still way cheap compared to Vegas or CA.

Who is this woman?

IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.

Sometimes I wish I was in office now just so I could rail some of these people. All in just one minute.

LindaR at 201 — well, call me biased, but West Virginia is gorgeous and housing prices aree easily under $200,000 here for lovely, lovely homes. It’s a great place to raise a family, wonderful hiking and natural areas to explore, and friendly folks. And we’re in need of more active progressives. :)

Mary at 138

if you are still around — why couldn’t Rove be an unidicted co-conspirator? This would fit the leopold time line and explain the phone/call/letter/fax that Luskin refuses to release.

I still do not buy the secret classified pardon theory. All it would take would be for one patriot to say, I will go to jail for this because it is so corrupt — even maybe the judge — and it would fail. No one would ever go to jail for revealing it. It is truly an emperor has no clothes play.

Cozumel #214. I have said it here before, I love Utah. Born and raised here and I watched what happend with the coupling of religion and politics nationally take place here in the 80’s and 90’s.

I guess what my point is, that you don’t move from a place that it is your home just because it has been hijacked by people who don’t know how to govern. You dig in and fight. Even if it is a losing fight, which I don’t think it is in the long run, it just might take a while. You fight because it is right. (To Kill a Mockingbird and all that…)

Just last night, I was having a discussion with a VERY conservative friend. We were talking about the sorry state of Interstate 80 going through Parley’s Canyon, which links Salt Lake and Park City. The stretch of Interstate gets loads of 18-wheeler traffic and is in terrible shape, and quite dangerous for normal traffic due to the semi-truck traffic.

One of the main problems is that it is only three lanes and most days you get semi-trucks taking up all three lanes trying to pass one another with the fastest one going 35 mph. We both agreed that the solution is to aquire federal funding for an extra dedicated semi-lane in each direction.

When I asked him if he would rather have our Congressional delegation spending time on everyday issue like this one, or gay-marrige amendments and the like, he was speechless.

You should have seen the look on his face. It was as if he caught a small glimpse of how the Repubs were playing him. Priceless.

He thanked me for the great conversation when I left his home.

OT…but I see SnowJob and that dirty disgusting Don Imus were all over Carter yesterday…..Ah that Tony Snow you can’t take that Fox News attitute out of em’ once thaey got it….friggin idiot.

http://thinkprogress.org/?tag=Media

Has anyone jumped of the reports that Zarqawi reportedly wanted a US/Iran war?

I mean, are the Neo-Cons are using plays out of Zarqawis’s book.

Hmmm..Great minds think alike.

-GSD

Forget about how many troops we need?

Look beyond the tactical challenges?

Obviously this woman has never served, or knows anything about the military.

The decision for how many troops on the ground is not a tactical decision.

==============================================

Smack ‘em down Maxine Waters.

Mary 230 -

I used to work in credit risk management. The credit bureaus work hard to block ANY meaningful consumer protections that would impede their trafficking in credit data.

Getting in on this late today. Love the GET REAL thing! Of course, you need to make it into an acronym:

Responsible
Ethical
Accountable
Leadership

Get REAL!

#242.

Please disregard that incoherent jibberish. Apparently the effects of a hard days work have gotten to me.

-GSD

http://www.ohio.com/mld/beacon…..817145.htm
“COLUMBUS, Ohio – A sweeping investigation into bribery for investment contracts at the state insurance fund for injured workers has returned authorities to familiar territory: Ohio’s pension funds and the state treasury.”

Are we in the Gilded Age again? I think we are. This is just too much.

emptywheel, how’s your name-the-Repug-mouthpiece contest coming?

ew, was thinking Squealer

Napoleon’s mouthpiece in Animal Farm

You know, Sophist, somewhere between your 231 and Mary’s 230, my head finally did explode.

Sorry.

Can’t talk now.

I’m hors de combat.

GO MAXINE…she called it a Karl Rove resolution…GO GIRL!

Alta, Utah.

http://www.dancingcrane.com/im……asp?i=104

I can drive to this spot in 30 minutes. The wildflowers should be coming up soon. Link is from my gallery. Sorry to blogwhore.

Christy, I’m making a list, and West Virginia is on it. Oklahoma kiddo, sounds like you have a great situation, but I missed where you are??

To think I lived in the same town as Emptywheel.

Humbling.

shooogarp,

“Cozumel #214. I have said it here before, I love Utah. Born and raised here and I watched what happened with the coupling of religion and politics nationally take place here in the 80’s and 90’s.”

I hear ya. I do a lot of business there and usually go about twice a year. I usually stay in the Orem and Provo area which is where most of my customers are, and as far south as Salem. GORGEOUS!

OT, Broken link? I have been trying to get to the comments from the June 10th post,Clueless ,for 20 minutes trying every angle I can think of.Can any one help out with this? I am trying to track down a comment from punaise around this time period. I tried the search function but got no results. Thanks in advance.

Leslie in CA #136

I get what you’re saying about inclusiveness and I agree.

When I say “America needs to…” I mean that to include everybody including those of us who are Democrats, need to get real. The use of America means every American.

I didn’t mean for it to sound arrogant or that only WE are real and everybody else isn’t. Rather, the current Congress is merely a facade, a mirage, of a government, and we need a real government with real legislation.

You know that “of the people, by the people and for the people” notion that the Republican-controlled Congress has no inkling as to what that means.

The GOP idea of government right now is “of the people, by the lobbyists and for the special interests.” It is a sham government and I want a REAL government.

JeannieZ @ 244

ding ding ding ding… we have ah winnah!

Cozumel #254

Next time you’re in Park City stop by Wild Spirits Nature Photography on Main Street!

Mary @ 12:42 pm (#231) – I think the cure for this is a campaign to tell these financial institutions that if this passes, we turn in our credit cards. Make that clear to online vendors, retail stores, etc. These financial institutions take absolutely no responsibility for what they do. They send out credit applications all the time that, if someone were to fill it out for you with their own address on it rather than yours, could ruin your credit rating. The credit card companies have made sure that they are in no way liable.

I personally could do without a credit card, and while it would be a burden, I could do without the debit card, too. Maybe I’d spend less money.

Anyway, there are too many whores in Congress to stop this thing. Just about all those guys get campaign contributions from financial institutions, I’m sure. They’re everywhere, after all, for our convenience. The only way to stop this is if the banks and credit card people know they’re going to pay.

shooogarp,

Will do!

OT…GREAT Peter Daou on mAnn Coulter…..
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..otent.html

JeannieZ- Thats GREAT.

Gimme an ad budget and I could run big time w/ that.

(honestly, anyone halfway competent could sell dems [the other, other white meat] over pugs in Nov. Hear me Rahm & Chuckle?)

LindaR-

Seriously, if I WAS to move I love Boise, Idaho. I know, I know, redder than Utah, but it has low home prices, great neighborhoods close to downtown, and close to lots of natural areas.

Wow. Sounds like the House Dems are giving some shi*t kicking speaches on behalf of Murtha today.

LlindaR—I agree with Christy. West virginia is beautiful, the best kept national secret and more progressive thenone would imagine. and the nicest folks in the world (see the 6/9 NYT travel articel about Greenbrier County)

OK, travel article

Gilchrest is a moron.

We can and will defeat terrorism?

Err okay. Let me know when you’ve destroy guerilla warfare as well, too.

West Virginia has more than just hillbillies and moonshiners?

:~)

Linda R: Ukiah CA in Mendocino County is becoming quite a progressive town. Weather isn’t bad and it’s only an hour from Santa Rosa and an hour and 50 to SF.

Shoogarp,

“I guess what my point is, that you don’t move from a place that it is your home just because it has been hijacked by people who don’t know how to govern. You dig in and fight.”

a big phat good on ya !

made me think of one of my favorite quotes -

Medgar Evers was frequently asked why he didn’t leave Jackson for sunnier, greener climes -

“I may see heaven, and we may see hell, but I’m going there from Jackson”

Matt O. #256, I’m right there with you in wanting a real government – and as I said upthread, I didn’t think at all that you meant it in an arrogant way. I’m just suggesting that we make that inclusiveness more explicit, to head off potential misunderstandings.

Dr. Bong—what else does one need????? We have great weed too—or so my clients tell me

Jeannie #244

I like the acronym. When I came up with my slogan, I wanted to tackle specific issues. But multiple versions is a-okay by me.

You can send checks payable to the

FDL Marketing and Advertising Co. LLC LTD

Hey, Bong, ‘ere’s someuvus hillbillies is rill niiice, donchy know?

Christy Hardin Smith,,,

,,,W. Virg. is absolutely wonderful. Some would say it’s paradise found. Me thinks “we’re in need of more active progressives” everywhere.

Cozumel – #260 -

I was hoping that the Girls would put our a FDL sticker similar to the bomb shelter signs with the radioactive sign on them that used to be everywhere during the cold war.

I could put the sticker in the window to let all of the FDL pups that pass by know my gallery is a “safe place.”

Leslie in CA #270

Ahh gotcha.

Bustednuckles at 12:54 pm – I have no trouble getting to the “Clueless” post. Plenty of Punaise snark in that one.

MattO & JeannieZ have just come up with a better campaign foundation than the dumbfuck “consultants” did in 6 years.

Honestly.

“We can do better.” – I sure fucking hope so.

And Mary, Unfortunately I understand. Have to be an idiot to go into politics today. Catch 22.

cbl @248

So far the leading candidate is Gooper scooper. But Squealer, I gotta consider that one seriously.

JWR, Well, as Katie Bierns Teeth say’s. Hurrm.

Linda I’m with Christy. Lived in WV would love to move back. Learned to ski there. Christy loved to pic. earlier the view from Hawk’s Nest of the New River very special to me, brought a tear to my eye. I traveled the state from top to bottom even the Mingo County gang can be friendly once they get to know you. I’ve been lurking sooo long I’m almost a stalker. I can’t resist to say good things about WV ..Ramps for everyone, on me.

LindaR…252…

…I’m in “Oklahoma!”

Cujo:
Or, as someone suggested yesterday, frame it as a question: “Oh, we have a course?”

This is why I get invited to barefoot barbeques and whoever wrote that gets invited to heels and ties cocktail parties. *g* I’m gonna get me some of that class stuff someday. I like it.

Imman:
why couldn’t Rove be an unidicted co-conspirator? This would fit the leopold time line and explain the phone/call/letter/fax that Luskin refuses to release.

Oh definitely.

THere was a broader & longer context to my post above. As a response to some posts about the Proseuctor taking a dive or deciding to play politics, I’ve posted a bunch of different things, different places, about what could be going on that might mean no one’s talking and wouldn’t have anything to do with the Prosecutor deciding to play politics. Below threads someone brought up secret pardon and LHP was kind of bummed about what is going on, so I just re-posted to say its only one thing to toss up; there are so many others it’s not worthwhile to worry just yet IMO.

I think unindicted co-conspirator fits just fine too. I do think that there is either a) a larger plan or b)outside efforts blocking thing going on, rather than just “gosh, the Rove case might be a risk, so I’m backing off”.

I think that bc the Prosecutor was willing to send COoper to jail. I think you need to be pretty positive about what you are doing, if you are a conscientous atty, before you open that door. So I think he had him nailed then. If not, it’s pretty troubling that he would have been willing to send Cooper to jail.

I still do not buy the secret classified pardon theory. All it would take would be for one patriot to say, I will go to jail for this because it is so corrupt — even maybe the judge — and it would fail. No one would ever go to jail for revealing it. It is truly an emperor has no clothes play.

Yep – I see those points. OTOH, as a hail mary, what if no one DOES reveal anything? Personally, I don’t really think it is what is going on – I just tossed it out. I have no idea, but I’d like to dream about there being a larger plan. I think it is suspicious that about the only known testimony that has been given to the GJ since the supposed turnover of the 250 emails in Feb is Rove’s rather longer-than-expected appearance. The only testimony. And you know those GJ members read the paper – they aren’t sequestered. Aren’t they going to have asked the Prosecutor once they had him there – if they didn’t already know – HEY, what about those emails? When do we get to see them?

If Rove testified as to something involving those emails that puts conspiracy or obstruction for a wider group on the table — then the Prosecutor could have a fair amount of juggling to determine how he wants to proceed. And you are absolutely right that, for even lesser things than an explanation on the 250 emails he could just be an unindicted co-conspirator with his testimony being used later. Libby’s crew has sure been interested, from the beginning, on just what Rove HAS been saying to the GJ.

If there is anything about WHC or Cheney or even Ashcroft being involved in directing any activities with regards to those emails – hmmmmm. That would give a prosector a lot to think through.

But, I’m prepared for it all to be “we’re done.” I’ll wonder about the Cooper thing if that is it though. It won’t leave me thinking good thoughts if it really was an iffy case on Rove and they were willing to jail Cooper over it. I don’t believe that right now, but I sure hope I don’t have to come around to it later.

OK — tee hee.

Dow is up over 300 points today? What changed???

AP: Senate rejects U.S. troop pullout in Iraq

The Senate rejected a call for the withdrawal of U.S. combat forces from
Iraq by year’s end on Thursday as Congress erupted in impassioned, election-year debate over a conflict that now has claimed the lives of 2,500 American troops.

The vote was 93-6 to shelve the proposal, which would have allowed “only forces that are critical to completing the mission of standing up Iraqi security forces” to remain in 2007.

Besides Kerry, the only Senators voting for the resolution were Boxer, Byrd, Feingold, Harkin, and Kennedy. We didn’t even make it out of the ‘K’s.

emptywheel, I left you an OT question on your new “Byron” post. Thinking about York would give me brain damage. http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..t-18623597

Mary @162 – brilliance in motion.

“Dow is up over 300 points today? What changed???”

LOL I wish ; ) Not bad though.

http://finance.yahoo.com/

Sorry – my brain is fried – Dow was up almost 200 points…sorry (but, still – am not liking this volatility).

hawkseye…269

Ukiah. Ahhh,,, Mendocino County. Up from Bodega Bay. Gateway to the Redwoods. Doesn’t get any better.

Only one answer is now needed to those who describe a timetable as “cut and run”:

“The democratically elected leaders of the sovereign state of Iraq have asked our government for a timetable for foreign troops to leave. Do you not believe the Iraqi government should be allowed to make its own decisions? How will they ’stand up’ if they’re not the ones deciding how to run their country?”

The AP reports that the President and Vice President of Iraq have asked for a timeline.

Anne #284
What changed?
Answer:
I sold all my stock yesterday.
I know. If I’d a given you a head’s up or warning you coulda made some money today.
Did the same thing last October just before the 25% runnup over the 6 months following. Only recently put more money into stocks.
I should put out a newsletter. I’m pretty consistently wrong like this.

Excellent point Redshift.

Anne,

“Sorry – my brain is fried – Dow was up almost 200 points%u2026sorry (but, still – am not liking this volatility).”

I think the last two days have been a sucker rally. I don’t like it either.

OT – I work on health-related issues and just got this notice (sorry, no link):

House Republican leaders are putting off a vote on the $141.9 billion FY07 Labor-HHS bill that was expected next week, fueling speculation that they will try to keep a lid on the measure until after the November elections. Democrats’ successful bid to attach an increase in the hourly minimum wage this week was only the latest headache for GOP leaders on an already divisive bill under attack from party moderates and conservatives over spending levels. [. . .]

There was a lot more detail about the ins and outs of this that I had to cut because it made the comment too long. Suffice it to say that this bill, among other things, supports statewide and local health-related programs in all 50 states, and this delay in funding will be causing a lot of problems.

new thread alert

Bustednuckles at 1:05 pm – The easiest way I’ve found to find older posts is to use Google’s Advanced Search feature. (Not blog search, btw.) In the “with all of the words” box I entered “Clueless”, and down the page in the Domain box I put “www.firedoglake.com” (no need for all that http jazz.)

RSS says: new thread

HmblDog – it’s probably a good thing that what I have in the market is all secure in my 401(k), otherwise I’d probably be doing what you did.

And I try to console myself with the notion that dollar-cost averaging protects me somewhat from these wild swings (except for the IRA I inherited from a relative).

Sigh…

immanentize @ 239

In order for Rove to be an undicted co=conspirator, there would have to be a conspiracy charge. So far, there isn’t one.

If we are looking for an explaination of the know facts, right now there is no second indictment and no rumors conserning anyone else.

Remember, it wasn’t just Jason Leapold, it was (sort of) David Schuster, too.

I’m not saying i have bought into the secret pardon theory, but it does have the advantage of accouting for all known facts as well as widely disseminated rumors.

It also accounts for a couple bits of strange behavior, viz, why won’t Luskin release the whole letter? and why does Fitz’s spokesman use a lot of words to neither confirm or deny (a) when there is no reason to if the letter itself is not sealed (which it can’t be if Luskin is quoting it–or at least the part quoted. If Luskin is allowed to talk about it, so is Fitz) and (b) a simple “no coment” would have been more appropriate unless he was actually TRYING TO SAY SOMETHING without breaking any rules.

freakdaddy at 281 — don’t lurk, comment more often. And don’t mind me passing on the ramps, but I will take a large helping of brown beans and cornbread and fried potatoes, if you don’t mind…

lhp and Mary — don’t you think that if “secret pardon” were the answer, both Fitz and Judge Walton would have resigned and be screaming bloody murder by now?

Redshift @ 1:15 pm (#293) – I’d say the Iraqis just stood up.

Ooo, Christy, no fried okra and sliced tomatoes?

Sorry lhp and others, but why, why, why would a pardon be secret? What purpose does it serve? The whole point of a pardon is that it is a PUBLIC statement of the repudiation of a verdict (or the snuffing out of a prosecution before it gets to that point).

If it’s not public, then the pardon can’t serve its purpose. Sorry, I’m not buying this one.

Unless . . .

Unless the pardon is a kind of &uumlber-immunity, so iron-clad that no prosecutor or judge can take it away. Even then, though, it would still have to be public in order to function.

Nope, still not buying it.

cbl @ 33 – me, south land park. Seriously, not a south park joke. Sutterville.

Personally, I was physically ill watching Mehlman snigger through the republican talking points. He makes a mockery of a sham of the mockery that’s shame.

oh yeah, lotus. I’d ante up for some biscuits and thinly sliced ham, too. Smithfield Va is not that far off, you know. ;) Maybe some chess pie for dessert, too.

lotus…305

I’ve got the okra,(always) tomatoes, cornmeal, black pepper and salt. And the fry pan. Gonna have that tonight. After all, I do live in Okrahoma.

Devil’s advocate Peterr, a pardon can be used to keep someone from being indicted as well as to dismiss and indictment. That is what it was used for with Nixon/Ford.

So lodging a pardon with the prosecutor or the Judge to whom an indictment would be tendered would prevent a count from “attaching.” So the purpose can be accomplished secretly – if the purpose is preventing an indictment from attaching. The reason I don’t think that is what is going on though.

It just seems as if, after evidence was presented, with word now out that Rove is walking, someone would have to be very sure of that GJ to sit back and just let it end there. I can’t imagine the Prosecutor letting Luskin and the press have the word before the GJ. So IMO, there is some larger plan and the GJ is clued in.

If not, I just can’t imagine, no matter how much they have been admonished, the prosecutors wouldn’t be meeting with the GJ just to make sure they understand the admonishments of secrecy, etc. My take is something is in the works, bc human nature is such that just dropping that bombshell without anyone doing some handholding with the GJ is inviting comment to leak out.

FWIW.

Y’all fry your okra sliced or whole-pod?

Lotus at 303,

To what end? Bush has the power to pardon.

I fan article 3 judge signed a facially lawful order to seal it, the proper thing to do would be to challenge the lawfulness of sealing it by bringing a motion for certiorari (to review) or mandamus (to compell unsealing) Banker life v. Holland 346 US 379.

If the pardon was issued under seal by the President w/o getting a court order, one could bring a action for a writ of prohibition. Since prohibition is the flip of mandamus and Marbury v. Madison established that the president is subject to a writ of mandamus, without benefit of one minute of legal research (CAVEAT), I believe that the president would likewise be subject to a writ of prohibition.

Bottom line, screaming bloody murder about it would not alter the legal validity of such a pardon one iota.

Further, engaging in such behavior would certainly get one removed from a position where one would be able to bring such litigations which might alter things.

Do any of us really thing Pat is so undisciplined, or so lacking in faith in the rule of law, that he would do something like that unless he had exhausted every single possible legal remedy?

Now really.

Oh, and save me some chess pie, angie, please ma’am!

Peterr 306,
If it’s purpose is to BLOCK a prosecution of Karl Rove, yeah, it works EVEN BETTER if is secret, because no blowback at the polls on election day, like what happened to Poppy for pardoning all the Iran Contra criminals

Angie and lotus — remind me to share my chess pie recipe with y’all at some point. Mmmm-mmmmm.

Sliced or whole pod? Sometimes one; sometimes the other. It’s a mood thingy.

Mary, forgive my ignorance…but what case is sealed v. sealed is part of? Libby? Broader PJF special prosecution mandate?
If it was a sealed pardon, why would it have a criminal case designation?

Christy – please share with everyone.

My favorite – you only get really good, “for real” chess pie in a few states too.

Well, lhp, you know what you’re talking about several thousand percent better than I do, but honestly, I was visualizing Judge Walton more than Fitz in the Richardson/Ruckelshaus role.

That whole SP scenario just seems so foul, it gives me all kinds of creepy visions.

(Glad you’re feeling better, btw.)

YEZZZ — chess pie recipe ASAP!

MAry at 310

Human nature being what it is, unless they have every single grand juror believing that every room in their houses is bugged and that Rummy has implanted a wiretapping chip in thier brains, if these morons have done something so stupid

It will leak out. Just like every other immoral illegal thing they have done.

No matter how much you try to intimidate the Grand Jurors, there will be at least one patriot and at least one who wants 15 minutes of fame and a million dollar book advance.

Not for nuthin’ (and sorry valerie) but how fast would a book by a Grand Juror sell out??

Perhaps authored by “anonamous”? it would sell much faster than the victim’s book.

I know, I know the Wh would try to block publication “pentagon papers” style, but just like Bushco learned from Poppy’s experience, wanna bet Flloyd Abrams has learned a few new tricks too???

Chess pie (not lemon), whole pod okra (smush it so the sticky juice comes out,), cornmeal cornbread (no flour) in an iron skillet (add pepper jack), and white beans cooked w/ country ham, collard greens w/ country ham, too.

Guess I’ll be cooking dinner tonight….

lhp –

I understand the POLITICAL reasons for why someone might want a pardon to be kept secret, but not any kind of legal rationale why that would be possible in the first place.

Mary, I know about Nixon – that’s why I said “or the snuffing out of a prosecution before it gets to that point”. But that’s a perfect example of my point. The pardon has to be public to be effective.

If no one knows you’ve been pardoned, is it really a pardon?

OK, I can think of one situation where it makes sense. Suppose you’ve got an undercover CIA agent, who is on the verge of being indicted for something. You want to end that process, so that the agent can go on doing their national security, defending the nation thing, but you don’t want to out the agent. So, in this hypothetical, you issue a secret pardon, wave it under the prosecutor’s nose, and everyone goes on with their business.

Now, unless someone’s going to propose that ROVE is a clandestine CIA agent, I don’t see him getting a secret pardon. Especially for a case involving the outing of another CIA agent.

Sealed v. Sealed is just some case that was filed about the same time that there was heavy spec Rove would be indicted, with the judge that handles the GJ that was being used by Fitzgerald. THat GJ, though, is being used for other things, including some Abramoff matters it appears.

So Sealed v. Sealed could have something to do Rove/Libby, or not. But when the news about Prosecutor dropping the Rove aspect, per Luskin, was publicized, there was some spec trying to see if there was a way to tie pieces together, i.e., was there some way to make Sealed v. Sealed a part of a narrative involving the case re: Rove being dropped. Especially since the Prosecutor’s office has not made any announcement on its own that it will not be seeking charges. That added to head scratching.

Also interesting that Luskin doesn’t seem to be pushing the Prosecutor’s office to make that announcement. No angry presser saying: “Look, you’ve told us we are in the clear, now tell the American people” or jubilant presser saying “a tisket a tasket a green and yellow basket, I got a letter from the Prosecutor and . . . “

That’s all. I don’t think anyone should take spec too seriously – it’s all just “what ifs”. Not “what is”s. Just tossing things around.

Can’t have cornbread without black iron (and in my house, you can’t have with sugar). Little bit in spoonbread, but not much there either.

T-, can I please come eat supper with you?

Lotus,
thanks for the get well wishes.

But same answer as to Judge Walton,

To what end does he do this while there are still legal avenues to be persued and if he knows they are being persued by one competent to do so?

All he does by that is take himself off the bench, and off the Libby case where maybe he gets replaced by a crony.

The best and easiest way to kill a case w/o leaving any trail, is by making tough (but not over the line) evidentiary rulings.

Everyone of Team Irvings motions have invited Walton to do just that. I would not be surprised to learn (but want to make clear I have heard ZERO rumors to this effect) that behind the scenes, subtle or not so subtle pressure has been put on Walton to rule more favorably for Team Irving thereby allowing the GREYMAIL to work it’s magic and force the dismissal of the case.

lhp 321 – that’s what I think too, and I hope that even going this long with no leak means the GJ knows what is going on. I just can’t imagine the announcement being dropped onthem from out of the blue without prior meetings to prepare them unless they were already prepared.

FWIW and maybe that will cheer you up too.

Or maybe Christy should send you a chess pie. *g*

Thanks, Mary.
So there’s a very good chance it’s unrelated to Plamegate.

Off to the grocery….

Shouldn’t Monday’s transcript be just about ready by now, lhp, and is there anything in particular you’re looking for in it? (I asked that earlier today in an EPU, so perhaps you’ve answered it already.)

Cannot wait for the chess pie recipe, Christy! My Mom used to make it and the crust was crispy like nobody’s business and the filling– omg! Gonna have to get her to make some when I get home next.

Peterr,
Yeah if it is sealed illegaly, it is still sealed until you get someone to agree with you that it is sealed illegally and unseal it. As an officer of the court, you can’t just ignore hte seal.

So even if it were sealed ilegally, Fitz, or someone, would still have to bring procedings to get it unsealed.

This still does not mean I am buying this. Only exploring whether it fits (like doing a crossword puzzle in pencil–you put in your guess word and then see if all the crosswords actually work with it, and then move in expanding circles outward)

The thing is. Leapold is right about one thing. the caption in a sealed criminal case is usually US v. Sealed , not Sealed v. Sealed.

The anomoly feeds the speculation.

Oh now, T, I’ll come along to the virtual grocery store with you and we can all sit here on this tasty thread and enjoy dinner. yum.

Lotus 329
Nope did not see the EPU post.

What I am looking for is a discussion of the effect of winding down the investigation (if that is what happened) on the discovery process.

Pat needs to face Walton at trial. he would not be so stupid as to walk in one day and make Walton jump through all sorts of crim procedure law hoops if he knew he might have a decision in hand a couple days later that would completely change the legal landscape for the hearing.

Not unless he want Walton to personally castrate him, without anethesia, later in the trial process.

So, if Pat had any inkling that his investigation was over or soon to be over, there should be SOMETHING in the transcript to that effect.

Plus, I would be looking for another one of those dandy, didn’t see it coming, gifts from the sky that happen in every filing or transcript that he is involved with.

he is not stupid enough to screw over his judge. Especailly, when his judge has been fair with him.

If no one knows you’ve been pardoned, is it really a pardon?

?? I don’t follow. As long as someone is prevented from being indicted, then the pardon worked??

Are you saying that the Prosecutor could just pretend it wasn’t given to him and indict anyway? If the President issues an Exec Order of Classification along with the a pardon, then the Prosecutor would have to abide by it, but for seeking Judicial intervention as to the validity of the order. That is what lhp and I were referring to in the “it would explain sealed v. sealed.” If there were a bid between the prosecutor and AG/WH/Rove’s counsel, whoever, re: whether the classification was valid.

If so, and the judge went with protecting the classification status and notified the Prosecutor, then the Prosecutor probably has little to do other than go along and try to decide on lodging an appeal. It might also leave a prosecutor not knowing if his investigation is shut down or not – pending decision to appeal or appeal on the classification issue?

Considering that we have pretty blatantly alleged secrecy to dismiss lawsuits left and right, including those regarding kidnap and torture like Arar and el-Masri, I don’t know that the Admin would necessarily quail before trying it on a Rove Walks issue.

But it’s just a “what if”. I have a hard time beleiving that, things being dropped in the manne in which they were dropped means that the GJ knows what is going on and to me that means the possibilty of something else happening. OTOH, once Safavian wrapped (and I wonder if we’ll hear a verdict on that tomorrow?) maybe Zeidenberg or someone other than Fitzgerald did meet with the GJ. But that would indicate a lack of respect to the GJ by the Prosecutor IMO, to have met with them to put on evidence and be acknowledged to be running the show – but have someone else show up to tell them he’s dropping the Rove part.

Who knows?

Pat needs to face Walton at trial. he would not be so stupid as to walk in one day and make Walton jump through all sorts of crim procedure law hoops if he knew he might have a decision in hand a couple days later that would completely change the legal landscape for the hearing.

Could you expand on that a little bit, please? (I practiced so briefly, and have forgotten so much, that I’m not following that graf too well).

Mary, whaddya make of the Safavian jury being out so long?

BTW – I think the timing of the announcement was interesting. Right AFTER the hearing before Walton on discovery matters, esp with Walton having put a hold on Libby access to Rove info, but indicating he would be willing to revisit it when the Rove issue resolved. Interesting to see if Libby pushes that after all or not and if not — why not.

If they do push, then the prosecutor may be forced to say more about whether any aspects of the GJ are still proceeding.

They had to dismiss and reseat in Safavian, so I think today is really just day one with the new juror.

I hearing Orphan Annie singing Tomorrow. But I’m not good with a crystal ball and I’m kind of tone deaf.

Okay (and thanks re Safavian), here’s your next request from the gallery:

… with Walton having put a hold on Libby access to Rove info, but indicating he would be willing to revisit it when the Rove issue resolved. Interesting to see if Libby pushes that after all or not and if not %u2014 why not.

What might

(a) push
(b) nopush
(c) why

reveal (or at least suggest)?

Mary and lhp

Could Clinton have issued a classified pardon of Marc Rich? Could Bush 41 have issued a classified pardon to Weinburger & Co? “Here you go, just show this to the judge quietly and on the sly, then go on your merry way. If anyone asks about it, just smile and wave.”

My knowledge of classified materials comes from the State Department, not Justice. The Bush adminstration practices aside, there has to be a reason WHY a particular action of the executive is to be classified. Other than the wild hypothetical of Rove being an undercover agent I cited above (and wouldn’t that be a wild cover!), I can’t come up with a reason that Bush could use to classify a pardon.

Not that he wouldn’t try, mind you. I just don’t see how it works legally. I know it’s a hard question to answer, but are you aware of any cases where that’s been done? (Would have to have been long ago, of course – else they wouldn’t be secret.)

Well, Peterr, we’ve either got ‘em busy or we’ve lost ‘em upstairs . . .

Mary says: “If there is anything about WHC or Cheney or even Ashcroft being involved in directing any activities with regards to those emails – hmmmmm.”
June 15th, 2006 at 1:08 pm

Mary – who is WHC, please? Is it an abbreviation for White House counsel?

What was that Ken Mehlman said about “greed and cynicism” being the motivating factors for the GOP?

Mark the day, Mehlman told the truth for once!

It is important how you think about these serious issues isn’t it kids.

Dick Cheney is obviously shooting Republican lawyers in Texas so that we don’t have to shoot them in Washington DC.

It’s all so simple don’t you see?

GSD I hear you – Great Sharia and Gilead law minds obviously think alike – why they even think in synch!
Keep the faith – I’ll take some ammunition.