It’s over …. Done ….. Caput …. Finito ….. Au Revoir …..

Fitz!

Marcy!

Thanks for keeping my head from exploding Christy…..
Thanks

My first thought after hearing this was that Rove’s cooperating. If that’s the case, this isn’t over by a long shot.

It’s so hard waiting and guessing.

I’m good with Rove rolling over to prosecute Cheney.

I need smarter people to explain something to me:

Is there a shadow investigation going on that’s devoted to determining who actually outed VPW? IE, the main crime in all this?

Or has that investigation been abandoned?

Or is Fitzgerald trying to get to that answer via the Libby trial, and the Libby trial alone?

Anyone? Buhler?

Rootz.

Well said, Christy!

Now, c’mon guys, quitcherwhining…we’ve work to do.

Net Neutrality–have you called your Senators supporting the Dorgan-Snowe legislation? Do you even know where they stand? TPM’s got the list.

Dynasty Tax–Senate will be active on this one soon. Speak up, take part.

Now I’m gonna go vote for my next mayor and city commissioners. One person, one voice, one vote… There are no statewide primary races today in ND, just city races, yet here in Fargo they expect high voter turnout.

The voters are out there just waiting for reasons to vote with us. We can do something each and every day to change the dynamic, build the synergy, change the Congress and the White House.

Like Christy said, and this applies across the board of issues and candidates, it’s not over ’til it’s over. It starts this morning, for me, with one ballot. Now where does it start for you?

it’s cheney… and they’d like nothing better than tossing him before ‘08… we all know rove’s not clean here. no way he walks for free…

effing bummer morning though!

Oh, well…

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13018897/

“WASHINGTON (NBC) – Top White House aide Karl Rove has been told by prosecutors he won’t be charged with any crimes in the investigation into leak of a CIA officer’s identity, his lawyer said Tuesday…”

And, the news that The Heroic Deciderer has valiantly flown to Baghdad for a Manly Photo-op.

If I didn’t have to be at my weekly management conference call shortly, I’d just go back to bed. Shit.

Cry later, take action now:

If you live in Virginia, vote Webb for Senate TODAY. He can defeat George Allen.

If you know anyone who lives in Virginia, call or email them and urge them to vote Webb.

It’s a very close race, turnout is critical.

A Democratic Senate = INVESTIGATIONS

chisholm–

From what I gather, the outing of Plame can’t be prosecuted without a lot of cooperation, which Fitzgerald isn’t getting.

I think the administration is just trying to delay the prosecution of Libby so that he doesn’t have to stay too long in prison before he can be pardoned in December of ‘08.

from pollyusa on previous thread:

Christopher Wolf counsel for the Wilson’s writes

We have become aware of the communication between Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. Luskin concerning Karl. Rove’s status in the criminal investigation. We have no first-hand knowledge of the reason for the communication or what further developments in the criminal investigation it may signal. While it appears that Mr. Rove will not be called to answer in criminal court for his participation in the wrongful disclosure of Valerie Wilson’s classified employment status at the CIA in retaliation against Joe Wilson for questioning the rationale for war in Iraq, that obviously does not end the matter. The day still may come when Mr. Rove and others are called to account in a court of law for their attacks on the Wilsons.”

Here’s a thought —

1. GJ indicted Rove.
2. Fitz had meeting with Luskin and Rove to present the indictments and give them one last chance to cooperate
3. Rove blinked and flipped, and subpoenas are under seal until Rove has done absolutely everything Fitz asks of him

Now, if you worked with Rove, you would know he’s guilty. Luskin saying he’s not getting prosecuted with clever language now puts the fear of God into those around Rove — wondering who he flipped on.

Thus, no one will trust Rove anymore, no one will share strategy or confidences with him as they did before.

This makes Rove a straw man, which is worse than an indictment he could get all indignant about because he is sworn to secrecy about his own deal.

Which is worse for Rove? An indictment or a complete loss of power while it looks like he still has it?

I trust Fitz.

Reposted…I got epu’d.

Hi.

Christy, I was very thankful to see that you posted this. I was about to post mine on my scholarship blog and discovered your comments. (So it made me feel a little bit more confident in my instinct and opinion.)

http://www.progressiveu.org/10…..r-derailed

Zennurse,

Only 17 more days of this scholarship contest. I’m hoping for the best. I’m taking summer classes too. Finals are coming up soon again.

Thanks for cheering me on. (You can email me if you see this comment. It’s hard for me to stay caught up everywhere.)

kirby -

“1. GJ indicted Rove…”

Would/could a prosecutor decline to prosecute a case once there was a GJ indictment?

Christy?

Today is going to be a long news day. I smell it. And I suspect we’re going to hear Cheney’s name before sunset.

And did Goldbars Luskin get a letter or a phone call? The story appears to be bobbling around.

At the risk of repeating m’self: WAAS! And step on it, please!

chisholm 7 (though I’m not one of the smarter people here): Fitz hass made clear that he isn’t dealing with the leak proper (except as it led to Scooter’s alleged felonies), and given how short-handed and over-case-loaded his office is, I believe him.

calvin had some thoughts along those lines prior to reading this post. And, Wayne Madsen has an interesting story up that may or may not be relevant. At least calvin doesn’t read the Enquirer.

As usual, FDL ROCKS!

“Fitz HAS …” (todja I’m not smart)

Rove is a despicable toad, but he’s not the architect of this treason. He was most likely heavily involved in the way Valerie Plame was outed, but only after receiving the orders from on high (Cheney at least) to execute a plan to destroy Wilson.

Rove is certainly worthy of prison for the crimes he’s committed, but he’s not the one who initiated what happened. I’d rather see Rove flipped to nail Cheney and/or Bush for what was done, since it had to originate with one or both of them. The added bonus is, if Rove is cooperating, his fellow thieves will turn on him. If Rove slipping Fitzgerald’s knot leads to internecine warfare inside the illegitimate Bush government, I’ll be happy to see them act out a form of Lord of the Flies.

calvinthecat!

my dear cat calvin passed away last year after 18 years,

could it be … do you still walk among us !

It was a phone call yesterday afternoon

Fitzgerald called Luskin late Monday afternoon to tell him he would not be seeking charges against Rove. Rove had just gotten on a plane, so his lawyer and spokesman did not reach him until he had landed in Manchester, N.H., where he was to give a speech to state GOP officials.

Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Rove, said the White House official “is elated” and said that “we’re done”.
MSNBC 6/13/06

Maybe now you’ll all stop yelling “Fitz!” in that annoying way. He screwed us. He’s dead to me. And I will be deleting this site from my bookmarks, too, because there’s no reason to read it anymore.

Evil has triumphed. Bye.

from Media Matters:
As Media Matters repeatedly noted, the subject of Rove’s security clearance has gone largely unreported by the news media. When the White House has faced questions about the clearance, it has repeatedly refused to answer, citing the “ongoing investigation.”

Now that Rove is apparently no longer the subject of an “ongoing investigation” into the Plame matter, Media Matters hopes reporters will demand answers about his security clearance.

maybe this is relevant, maybe not:

like a lot of folks, I had a Joe Wilson moment at Yearly Kos. class act all the way. after thanking him and generally genuflucting in his direction, we exchanged some small talk:

Joe: “Naw, thank you, I’m having a great time here. Lots of fun.”

me: “You managing to get any gambling done?”

Joe: “Oh no. I’m not a gambler. I only bet on sure things…(pause for effect)…

like Dick Cheney’s future…”

Otis, sounds like you and Joe are on the same page…

kirby at 14

I like the way you think. Would be a good idea to get that story circulating.

If all Karl’s pals started distrusting him …

And why the hell is he on the public payroll and not the RNC’s?

I’ve always thought Cheney was the main target. Its easy to belive Rove would roll over, but it doesn’t seem to be Fitzgerald style to let someone off once they have already lied to him. However, it would explain the 5 (think it is 5??) trips to the grand jury = he was really working to cut a deal and he really had to make it worth Fitzgerald’s wild.

Of course it is defiantly not over until Fitzgerald says it’s over. Did he comment yet (I just woke up to this!) or has it just been Luskin thus far? If its just Luskin, his word doesn’t mean much to me, he’s Rove’s mouthpiece and thus a master linguists (in the bad sense of the word).

Sad to say, the progressive blogosphere — especially blogs that made Karl Rove’s indictment a signature issue — will have to step up the the plate and acknowledge they screwed up. There is a real need for basic reporting skills to support assertions made by some blogs, and checking before opinions are posted as fact. Maybe some sites will hire reporters as a result of this. I certainly hope so. Meanwhile, while I hope this will not lead to a progressive blog shakeout, I shudder to think what it could do to sites like truthout, and Jason Leopold in particular. A sorry day indeed for the forces of truth.
Carol the journalist

How sad, coming so soon after Yearly Kos.

Fitzmas has been canceled.

A prosecutor can “nolle prosequi” an indictment. Essentially, that means a prosecutor can exercise discretion to NOT prosecute at any time before a plea is entered or a verdict returned.

This is fairly rare, IMHO…but it could mean that there were indictments that Fitzgerald has decided in his infinite wisdom to DECLINE to move forward on…particularly if he has extracted promises of cooperation.

Christie -> or other lawyers, please feel free to correct me if I’m talking trash here.

When does Libby’s trial start? After the elections?….

They are buying time…

Carol @ 29, other than Leopold who has gotten anything wrong!

Hmmm…

If we are thinking Rove likely flipped on Libby/Cheney, what is the likelihood that either or both of them are going to start firing back soon.

The response from Libby/Cheney will likely take many forms. Much of the response will be the sort of internecine action that is totally invisible to the public.

But I also expect that Libby/Cheney will attempt to send messages to one another and to Rove and Bush via the media.

I expect that we will soon start seeing some public statments from Libby’s team and some interesting behavior from Cheney’s staff.

The statements and the behavior will only make sense within the context of the three-dimensional game of chess/chicken that is going on among the various parties that are currently in legal jeopardy.

Cheney and Libby will be trying very hard to simultaneously threaten Rove and to push him to somehow give away exactly what he has told Fitzgerald.

If Rove is smart, he will not respond to any of these feints.

And if Rove is smart, he would already have totally come clean with Fitzgerald about everything as part of the terms of his cooperation. If he has lied or shaded the truth, then there is a strong possibility that a later plea deal by Libby or Cheney could undermine the terms of his immunity.

If Rove did flip, it has to be a prosecutor’s wet dream. Just imagine, a cooperating witness with a well-established reputation for a photographic memory… drool!

Sure bodes better for a gritty trial than the endless stream of Iran-Contra “I cannot recalls” don’t it?

Just my opinion, but I think that Fitzgerald knows, and we know, who outed Plame. It has been made clear in the Libby filings that he did tell the reporters that Plame was CIA; it is not clear that Libby knew that Plame was covert. He -should- have known, but there seems to be no proof that he did.

Since the charge hinges on “knowingly” revealing the identity of a covert agent, without honest testimony there’s no way to prove the case in court. The people who are talking don’t know, and the people who know aren’t talking.

SteveW, Libby trial set for January 9.

As I wrote under the last thread…It is playing into Rove’s and the others’ hands to allow ourselves to become dispirited at this turn of events.

For several reasons:
First -> it ain’t over till it’s over. I’m not convinced this is the last turn in this case;

Second -> Rove would like nothing more than to have the opposition buy into the belief that they are an Invincible Juggernaut that crushes everything in their path toward a Fourth Reich…don’t give them that. Fight!!

Third -> There is WAY TOO much work to be done. At most, we would have great satisfaction at watching the frog-march but we have all been counting on Fitzgerald to be the Hero to slay the Dragon. We have to be that hero. Fitzgerald never promised us a rose garden. All of our “Fitzmas” talk has been strictly self-generated. Disappointing? Yes, very much so. Fatally dispirited…Bah! Absolutely not!! Fuck ‘em. Cry havoc and let slip loose the dogs of war…don’t let ‘em beat you into dispirited paralysis. Ultimately, it’s NOT about Karl Rove…it’s about winning the Congress back. Handing over power to them is precisely what they want and their major tool.

Carol: Please cite places where coverage of the CIA Leak case here at FDL has been wrong. In the small places where we’ve gotten anything wrong. There has always been a correction. This blog never reported that Rove would be indicted. We speculated, and identified our speculation as (guess what?) speculation. Other than that, there’s nothing I can see to correct to the reporting and analysis done here.

Carol Curtis the Journalist: what are you talking about?

Nobody I know believed Jason Leopold’s wacky story. Folks WANTED to believe it, but it was clearly formed from nothingness.

Anyone could see it and most here said so. It’s not a sad day for journalism. It’s a sad day for clowns who make up false stories.

aww, puppethead

now i will have some very bad dreams, re:
I’ll be happy to see them act out a form of Lord of the Flies.

Piggy Barbecue, eewwe!

Morning everyone. Hope the intrepid YKos gang has managed to get some well-deserved rest after the wonderful job they did over the weekend (not to mention what must have been huge prep. & wrap-up details). Thanks guys.

Christy. We’d be so lost without you. Thanks for teasing apart the Fitz/rover ball-of-string a little for us. Want him outta there so bad, but I want deadeyedick out more, so I do hope your instincts are spot-on as usual. Sure makes sense.

Bobby G at 10

Your link at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13018897/
has 2 sentences referring to WP reporter Bob “Woodwind”. That’s worth a little smile, no?
I keep wondering if it’s really a typo, or someone’s making an editorial comment, heh heh.

And why is that weasel Schumer on air, making demands that Fitz issue a final report now that Karl’s been cleared? What part of “Ongoing investigation” doesn’t he understand?

I surely do want to see Addington in ashes when this smoke clears — to the extent that, as lhp or somebody said the other day, he can’t possibly crop up again 20 years from now!

The PodIDIOT calls Fitz disgraceful…

http://corner.nationalreview.c…..hlM2RmNjc=

THIS is why Fitz should make an announcement!!

Bye Seth. Don’t let the door hit your ass. If you’ve been here for that, then you’ve never been one of us. But my bet is you’re a stealth troll working to suppress the progressive movement. Carol, too.

Amen Sharkbabe !

Thanks for the update Christy.

btw, John Cusack, and only John Cusack should play Fitz. I like Spacey as Libby, Phillip Seymour Hoffman as Rove, Clooney as Waas (think about it), Alec Baldwin as Addington, Joe Pantoliano as Luskin, Richard Dreyfus has to play Cheney, Alan Rickman as Joe Wilson, with Gary Oldman as the Chimp(although I suspect both Phoenix & Depp have inner idiots they could call on)

yeah, I’m in total escapist mode

Jeff Bridges as Wilson, pretty please???

Could be fun to sit back for a bit and watch the wingnut bloggers get too far out in front on this, speculating about Turdblossom and Cheney being “exonerated”.

It’s going to make it all the more amusing to watch them swallow their tongues when the other shoe drops.

And make no mistake, there is another shoe.

Yeah, keep dreaming. Scooter will make a deal after the election and it will be all over.

Bobby G-No. Once a GJ indicts, the indictment has to be dealt with. It can’t just disappear. even if sealed it eventually will need to be unsealed and prosecuted or dismissed. My theory–I don’t think Rove was ever indicted. They got his cooperation in exchange for agreeing not to indict.

This theory (Rove’s cooperation against Cheney) is also consistent with some political advantages as well. When you think about it, Cheney is really the source of all of Junior’s political troubles right now. The failed pre-emptive war policy, the architect of doemstic spying and the NSA stuff, even, as we believe, the outing of a CIA agent– many of the issues most unpopular with the public. Imagine Rove now becoming the architect of Cheney’s undoing and providing cover for Bush to “blame Cheney” for everything, cut him loose before the mid-terms to demonstrate the administration “turn-around”, and, they hope, save the House to forestall the investigations that would otherwise go on until 2008.
The pardons will follow.

Pachacutec,

I think people like Seth don’t understand that Fitzgerald wouldn’t just let Luskin handle the end like this.

I don’t think the end of this investigation or Rove’s part in it is here at all.

Call me clairvoyant

Just spinning thoughts in my head here, but considering how Luskin has operated in the past perhaps this could come into play. What about a sealed indictment being handed down? We wouldn’t know who it was and Luskin has been out saying “Rove is off the hook” which would give them a clearing past the elections. It could just be wishful thinking but at this point I just don’t know LOL.

It may just be wishful thinking on my part, but Kirby’s take seems just about right, and would explain why an indictment may have been issued, but sealed.

In addition, Fitz didn’t need Rove just to put Libby away for a long time. His case on obstruction charges was really solid. So the only possible explanation is that somehow Rove offered up bigger fish for Fritz to fry.

And given what a skumbag Rove is, it is not surprising that he didn’t want to take a bullet for the Bush administration.

Everybody needs to chill the fuck out with all this teeth-gnashing and breast beating. If Rove is cooperating, then maybe he will rat out his boss. This means we’re going for the big fishes.

Rove is a toad and justice will catch up to him, even if that means waiting for the Wilsons’ civil suit, but with him turning state’s evidence, it means we may get a chance to see where ALL the bodies are buried.

Is “06 cr 128″ (Sealed vs. Sealed)still in the court’s database?

Meanwhile in B’dad:

75,000 [Iraqi] Forces to Be Deployed in Baghdad (per Maliki)

http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..nted=print

(No word on how many of the 75K are loyal to Maliki’s gummint, alas . . .)

How is anyone around Karl Rove gonna trust him? Aren’t they all gonna be wondering if he IS wearing a wire? or whether he HAS cooperated? Sure he could press ahead constructing a new slime machine for 06 to impress his pals and re-establish his bona fides, but aren’t they still gonna wonder?

If he did make a deal and has sworn confidentiality to Fitz, could he not STILL signal warnings? Or not? Seems to me that any cooperation with Fitz would (eventually) spell the end of his career among Rethugs forever.

If it is true that Karl Rove cooperated in nailing Cheney (and that is “the other shoe” some of us have written is still waiting to drop) has Joe Lieberman already been briefed by Karl as to his new duties as replacement Veep (i.e. pardoning the out-going Prez when Cheney returns the fire)?

Thanks Redd

also emptywheel –

http://tinyurl.com/mb2hd

Rove lives to win elections and establish a “permanent Republican majority” – an indictment might have been nice, but the only real stake in the heart of this Administration will be to lose elections. All of us can still give Karl a gift that will keep on giving by handing him defeat this fall.

And remember – all these guys have an enormous Achilles heel, their cockiness. The more they think everything’s going their way, the bigger they screw up eventually. Let them have their moment while we all keep the focus where it needs to be, on getting Congress back.

I just hope we’re not so determined to make lemonade out of lemons that we end up sounding like the wingnuts who convinced themselves that Wilson was going to be indicted for being a victim.

We all want Rove and the rest of Bush’s sour band of thieves to pay for their crimes, but justice doesn’t always prevail. At least in the short term. But I’m still hopeful Fitzgerald’s working hard and not being obstructed by Gonzales or anyone.

My small like-minded band of friends and I (overwhelmed in central Oregon) have wondered why Karl Rove, whose duties have been curtailed basically to campaigning, should be still being paid by US tax dollars to get Republicans elected. ?????? Isn’t there some sort of legal conflict here?

Perhaps Rove is merely cooperating in nailing Libby. Or is he completely unnecessary to that prosecution?

seth – off with your head, wtf is wrong with you. dare say you an evil word against fair fitzgerald!

he’s doing his job.

i’m willing to let rove off the hook (for the moment) if he’s given up cheney. i think rove’s a has been anyway. his turning (if he has) will seal his fate.

Carol the Journalist:

I think, given the execrable job the majority of “journalists” have done in investigating and reporting on the Plame matter, your appending the that term to your post seems to be an excellent example of the pot calling the kettle black.

While there has certainly been an abundance of speculation about the case here in the blogoverse, the posts of Jane and Christy, as well as those of emptywheel, Taylor Marsh and Jeralyn, the journalistic efforts of Murray Waas and the pointed commentary of Dan Froomkin have all been presented and conducted in accordance with standards set at the highest level. The same could not be said of the mainstream’s reporting on this case, with the exception of David Schuster of MSNBC.

This is not a place where people are easily fooled or where people easily swallow what passes for journalism these days. A little homework would have made that pretty clear.

Methinks you have had a Barbara Boxer moment.

Just got back from the polls in VA. Punched my ticket for Webb, called the neighbors to vote for Webb also.

As badly as I wanted to see Rover get ratfucked, There is still a long way to go. Let us not forget what Fitzgerald is currently prosecuting. OBSTRUCTION.He has to get the rest of the story by hanging Libby out so he can finish the original investigation. If Rover flipped, I’d say that would be wonderful news for two reasons. One, Cheney would be the obvious target. Two The weasel m-fr would have to be sweating bullets and not sleeping at night knowing that Cheney is a deadly bastard. Good for us both ways.

puppethead: Our hope belongs in our political movement, as I know you know, but I’m repeating a lot because we have folks just tuning in.

i’m with OtisiIsHungry. they need rove and his filth for ‘06 and ‘08. cheney getting thrown under a bus will do nothing but help rove on this mission. pardons all around and the monster’s ball plays on.

we need to focus on the elections and let fitz do his job.

You know… This could just be a tactic to line up all of the pieces for a plea bargain from scooter. If he were to be pressured into a guilty plea now, after Rove cut a deal, this whole thing would stay largely out of the media. None of the much wanted facts surrounding plames outing would come out. Scooter would be a sacrifice to protect the administration.

Alright fellow firepups, they win this one. Time to redouble our efforts to rid our fair Republic of the Republican cancer.

FIGHT BACK. [channeling me3 :)]

I just returned from voting, Webb for Senate in Virginia. Turnout is ultra-light. Individual votes could really make a difference in this race.

As of 10:30 only 120 people had voted, and they said that was three times the level of surrounding precincts.

If you’re angry, sign up to help elect someone, or go to Act Blue and donate money. Write somebody who is doing good work and send them a letter of encouragement. Talk to the person next to you in the grocery checkout about what’s going on with the government.

Everybody can do something. Promote yourself to the next level of civic involvement, like a battlefield promotion. If no one is organizing in your area, YOU do it.

With regard to Rove’s cooperation, we’ll know on that eventually–if Rove has flipped, Fitzgerald will have to list Rove as a prospective prosecution witness at some point. So, one way or another, we’ll find out about that.

As for the security clearance business, if anything, a decision not to prosecute would minimize the demand for retraction of his security clearance.

What I find to be a more intriguing question is if Rove’s clearance status changed with his move to the political office of the White House. At that time, concentrating on domestic political affairs, he would have no need to have a clearance beyond confidential. Was his clearance adjusted at that time to fit his actual duties?

Enquiring minds and all.

cbl 47: Perfecto! I nominate you Official Firedoglake Casting Director.

Well, I think at this point we need to keep an eye on stories about Cheney’s health.

…oh can I add…c’monnnnnnnn MURRAY!

Seth @ #24 – Wow. You’re a real everything is black or white sort of guy, aren’t you?

Carolthejournalist – If you are a journalist, I feel sorry for your readers and your publisher, since you apparently cannot remember what you’ve read or you are sorely lacking in cognitive skills because this site never made Rove’s indictment a “signature issue”.
Sheesh.

So what’s going on here? I’d say the jury is still out on Fitz. He could have indicted someone before the 2004 elections. He didn’t. He could have indicted Rove, Libby, Cheney and others on conspiracy charges. He didn’t. So far we only have a Libby indictment- and now word the Rove will not be prosecuted.

Sure this or that might happen- He may be going after Cheney- etc. The facts are- only Libby has been indicted and not on the original charges. Clusterfuck is now grinnin away sayin “I knew all along that ol Karl was innocent.” Makes ya wanna puke!

melior (in Austin) @ 49

And make no mistake, there is another shoe.

Yep. Maybe it’s not the one we thought, or hoped for, or even imagined. But that shoe’s there, all right.

Fitz is playing this as he plays all his cases. He doesn’t play it in public, and he doesn’t play to lose. No, Fitz plays it tight. He plays it close to the vest. He plays it in chambers. He plays it in court.

Most of all, he plays for keeps.

I don’t like waiting, but for someone who knows what they’re doing – like Fitz – I’ll wait. He knows what the score is, while we (and Luskin, and Rove) don’t, and he’s looking to hold folks accountable.

Ask Gov. Ryan in Illinois about Fitz and accountability. Ryan was convicted of racketeering and bribery, dating to his days as Illinois Secretary of State. A columnist in Illinois noted that because of Fitz, Ryan’s going to be making license plates instead of selling them.

Two words: Chicago Rules.

oh Seth!

Is that your way of telling us you’re ready for your closeup?

Pretty pretty?

RJ Eskew at HuffPos has a good article up:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..22894.html

from the statesman.com–
snip
Gubernatorial candidate Carole Keeton Strayhorn (Scott McClellan’s Mom) asking to be called “Grandma” on the ballot to improve her name recognition is kinda like a topless dancer named Hortense. If she didn’t use the stage name Bubbles, nobody would know who she was.

Obviously, the woman is tough. She sure whipped the personality out of her son Scott McClellan, the president’s former corpse of a press secretary.

http://www.statesman.com/news/…..kelso.html

WDC – thank you!

We need to work our butts off to elect principled leaders and to help elect people like Jennifer Brunner as Secreatry of State in Ohio to ensure accurate elections.

Do whatever you can, whatever your local headquarters needs to be done. It ain’t always fun or what you might want to do but it’s important work.

A good photo shop would be Rove sporting the mark of the squealer.

If only one thing comes of this, it should be the end of those childish “Fitz!” posts. Idolizing public servants is never wise.

Where is the letter that Luskin supposedly received? Have these reporters seen the letter? When can we see it?

Otis at 51 -> But can’t a prosecutor exercise discretion and “nolle prosequi” a case prior to a plea being entered or a verdict being given.

For instance, couldn’t it have happened in the following manner? Let’s assume a sealed indictment. The indictee wrangles a deal whereby they cooperate. The indictment stays sealed until such time as the indictee makes good on the cooperation, at which point the prosecutor exercises prosecutorial discretion and declines to prosecute further (”nolle prosequi” but I don’t know my conjugations). In short, is this route foreclosed in federal prosecutions? I know that it is used in state courts. Thanks.

rwcole, don’t forget that Libby has been charged with “throwing sand in the Umpire’s face”. Fitzgerald knows damned well that Libby is protecting someone. And, as a professional, he’s trying to see if he can gather evidence that will actually hold up in court. He’s a professional prosecutor, not a politician.

re: speculation.

Indictment quashed? or
Rover rolled over on Cheney?

There is just as much evidence for one scenario as the other.

Fitz’s next move will tell the tale. If he announces the investigation as ongoing, a Rove flip is possible.

Investigation over, no explicit clearing of Rove = quashed indictments.(would Fitz pronounce a person who has been indicted innocent of charges, even if quashed?)

Investigation over, Fitz clears Rove, = Fitz truly doesn’t have the goods, no other indictmens have been handed down.

No announcement of any kind will only fuel more speculation for the forseeable future.

An announcement does not have to be a political move-it only means he is being mindful of his duty to be fair.

montag @ 74 -> isn’t Rove on Fitzgerald’s list of witnesses already? I remember reading that and thinking (and writing) that the writing was on the wall at that point.

sunny:

Fitz has made exactly one announcement. That was when the GJ brought an indictment.

The rest we get from court filings.

He won’t make an announcement. And that is as it shold be.

If the court filings continue to refer to a continuing investigation we will know there is a continuing investigation.

The liberation of Karl Rove–
http://commentisfree.guardian……_rove.html
some snippettes:

President Bush’s political brain escapes indictment, but mysteries and legal entanglements remain. The special prosecutor’s decision not to seek indictment of President Bush’s chief political adviser and deputy chief of staff Karl Rove suggests two possibilities.

First, Patrick Fitzgerald’s letter informing Rove that he will not be prosecuted concludes his responsibility as a witness. If Fitzgerald has repeatedly subpoenaed him for questioning only about his own tortuous story there may be no further reason for the prosecutor to continue his investigation. Then the letter to Rove’s attorney ought to be swiftly followed by the grand jury’s disbandment.

Second, Rove’s escape from potential indictment may be the result of his extraordinary cooperation……

which leads us to this article:

By David A. Farenthold
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 13, 2006; Page A07

MANCHESTER, N.H., June 12 — The Bush administration is said to have a new playbook, with a more inclusive attitude toward critics and an openness to skeptical debate.

Karl Rove, apparently, still has his copy of the old playbook.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01585.html

…we will not make any further public statements…

Ooh ooh, Mr. Luskin, sir, does that include “double secret background” statements leaked over drinks to reporters of the opposite gender? What about amateur Hardy Boys coded messages about trees quaking from their roots? Does it include refusing to (wink, wink) confirm or deny leaks by saying “I heard that too”?

Just askin’. (/snark)

It IS over! And I am disgusted. No way is this a good thing. We do not want Rove walking around free and happy and continuing to corrupt the election. This is a catastrophe.

More on Fitz and Ryan, from the coverage of the Bloomington Illinois Daily Pantagraph when Ryan was found guilty:

U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald told reporters after the verdict that he hoped it would discourage public officials from engaging in corrupt practices.

“If they keep stealing, we’ll keep chasing them,” he said. “I think people now know if you’re part of a corrupt conduct where one hand is taking care of the other and contracts are going to people, you don’t need to say the word `bribed’ out loud. I think people need to understand that we won’t be afraid to bring strong circumstantial cases into court.”

I wonder if Luskin and Rove just got that message.

And cynic @ 85, there’s a difference between blindly turning someone into an idol and viewing someone as an inspiration. If I were a lawyer, Fitz would be the kind I’d aspire to be. As a member of the public, Fitz is the kind of lawyer I’m glad we’ve got – however this case plays out.

Mayan 87. I believe that in Fed. Ct. the court would have to approve a nolle prosequi once the indictment was filed. However, Fitz could just as easily have filed a sealed “prosecutor’s complaint” and then dismissed it under seal too. But none of that really matters to the theory that Rove is cooperating in exchange for a “non-prosecution” agreement. The theory stands either way. IMHO it is Rove, to Libby to Cheney. That’s what the Bu$hCo thinks will save them in 2006 and 2008.

It occurred to me that if Rover hadn’t been worried, he wouldn’t have dropped all the weight he’s been carrying around for years.

And a man who is innocent doesn’t have much to worry about…nor does a man who hasn’t flipped on DeadEye Dick Cheney, the same guy who pointedly didn’t call Rover after DeadEye’s little hunting accident.

Anybody got photos of Rove before Libby’s indictment and this past week for comparison?

As I suspected, the turd escaped w/o a scracth. I am not an attorney but I compared Rove’s case to Barry Bonds’s case. The feds are after Bonds but they have not called on him to provide statements/evidences/testimonies or otherwise. Sure Bonds testified once but that’s it.

Rove may have cooperated to save his own skin but from the start, I suspected there is no way in hell Bush would allow Rove to be indicted. Scooter was/is not well known name/figure but Rove is another matter.

Zergle #76:

I’m with you. It’s great to talk about getting Deadeye instead of “merely” Rove, and how the GOP wants him out anyway, but death would render a prosecution moot, would it not? Adding a criminal defense to Dick’s workload would only hasten that day. BushCo might yet get out of the inning cheaply enough, giving up Libby (to be pardoned) to get the double play.

For the loose ends file, I still want Leopold to out his sources, because I think it’d be useful to know who spun him and why.

When did we start believing Luskin?

When did we start believing the New York Times?

I hear no fat lady singing.

It IS over and it is NOT GOOD. They will NOT get Chaney if they cannot get Rove and we DO NOT want Rove running around free to corrupt yet another election. I am disgusted.

Seems to me — not being any sort of legal brain, mind you — that if this really were ALL OVER (and evil had prevailed) that Fitz would call a press confefrence and say so.

Seems to me. So before anyone jumps off bridges or chugs Drano, chill and wait for more info, okay?

And oh yeah —

FITZ!!!!

kirby and hamburger,

although I am in the aforementioned escapist mode (watching Gilda ferchrissakes – put the blame on Plame, boys), I am heartened by your spectulation on Rove as an untouchable.

and yes Hamburger, thought about Bridges as Wilson.

forgot to add -

Benjamin Bratt as Pachacutec

don’t worry Pacha and egregious, these eyes are on the prize – already sent off my LTE on Net Neutrality and posted a digestible public notice on it (using the local hot button issue of toll roads as an analogy) in town – advising everyone to contact our Senators (via phone and fax)

Dean refuses to let the Wurlitzer control the spin:

Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean said the fact Rove won’t face indictment “does not excuse his real sin, which is leaking the name of an intelligence operative during a time of war. He doesn’t belong in the White House.”

Givem hell, Howard!

The Bush machine is breathing again. They have begun the full court revival in the press. Zarqawi…Chimpy Goes To Baghdad…Rover…The Marriage Amendment..The Mexicans…The Burning Flags….

They are about to get very dangerous again.

-GSD

Well, if nothing else official comes out of Plamegate than Libby’s sorry hide nailed to the barndoor, I am at least grateful Fitz’s investigation led to the emergence of FDL as a place for thoughtful, reasoned discourse.

puppethead @62

I just hope we’re not so determined to make lemonade out of lemons that we end up sounding like the wingnuts who convinced themselves that Wilson was going to be indicted for being a victim.

Well, I can’t say that I disagree with you on that one. Look what’s happening now… suddenly there’s all this serious discussion of Rove having flipped, even though there’s not a shred of evidence beyond the circumstantial to suggest that this is the case.

How does this help the political clout of the progressive blogosphere? It seems to play into the very stereotypes that we’re constantly barraged with.

And once again with all due respect to Pach, I recall this site growing its wings primarily on the basis of reporting on Fitzgerald’s investigation and providing some very good legal analysis to that end. I think it’s a wee bit disingenuous to now act like Fitzgerald’s investigation was never the main focus around here and that it was always all about grassroots politicking.

And even if the grassroots thing has become the new focus, I think it’s naive to think that Rove suddenly skating on this whole thing doesn’t carry with it a significant effect on the grassroots political efforts here and across the political blogosphere.

No, I’m not saying “Rove is an invincible juggernaut”. That’s hyperbole that I don’t hear many people outside of the Greater Dumbfuckistan Metropolitan Area spouting. However by that same token, it’s not like this whole thing is a non-issue to us now.

Rove just got his political balls back from out of Lady Justice’s purse. He is going to be hopped up on a revenge trip for the rest of the campaign season. That affects us.

Though FDL never explicitly said they were doing anything beyond speculating about Rove’s potential indictment, other progressive sites were not quite so prudent. Jason Leopold’s grand pronouncements about Rove’s imminent indictment are now making us ALL look like schmucks, simply by association. That definitely affects us and any grassroots influence we might have.

I understand the urge to hold onto hope that somehow Rove hasn’t gotten away with what he’s done, and I also understand the urge to pretend that the possibility of his indictment never meant anything. I just tend to think that both approaches sort of skirt the edges of reality a little bit, and if we’re going to really continue to grow as a political force, we ought to be a little better at facing what’s actually in front of us.

(Otherwise, aren’t we sort of playing the same avoidance and denial games that have frustrated us for so long about the White House and Congress?)

The only people posting here who are dejected and are saying that Cheney, Rove, and all will get off with nothing are posters I’ve never seen here before.
I think we should call them dejected trolls.

The wee thing in the back of my mind all along has been that Fitz is may be republican, was appointed by republicans and has been allowed to plow on by other republicans. He is a professional prosecutor but is not out to overthrow a government. He implied in his Libby press conference that he is just interested in a sense of justice being done, not in the actual crime charged. I think he is happy with nailing Libby and Karl is doing that for him. The wet dream of Cheney going down just is not going to happen.

The script says Cheney goes after the mid-term elections to allow the oligarchy to annoint a succesor to George-the-Lesser. Fitz and Karl danced long enough to put pressure on Cheney to ensure that outcome. Libby’s trial will be after the elections and if Cheney doesn’t retire as ordered then he can be indicted, but only then. To me it seems Fitz is being used or participating.

GSD 106:

What did you expect? They aren’t just going to roll over. The al-Zarqawi thing got Bush a -2 point “bounce” though, which tells me that the public’s pretty much had it with his administration. Slapping a prettier coat of paint on a set of re-tweaked tail fins on this lemon ain’t gonna move it off the lot.

Warning: You will flame me for this:

Ok, I’m trained as a shrink. I get the feelings of frustration and disappointment. I really do.

But get the fuck over it.

You want to know why the left loses lo these last decades?

Because we piss and moan and think like losers. We’re never short of an excuse to get depressed rather than get organized. It’s self-fulfilling. Stop blaming politicains, including Democrats, and look in the mirror. Take some responsibility. Organize and seize power.

I understand the venting process. Fine. But understand that when you vent your negativity and despair you are hurting the movement. Your negativity, once spread, may feel therapeutic to you, but it infects other people. Then they become passive. Then the very injustices we want to see overcome remain in place.

I give you all one day to get over this, to get your heads on right. Then, when I see more loser thinking, I will call you on it. We don’t have the time or the luxury for more.

Once again, stop looking for anyone else to provide justice. Instead, organize for justice.

Fitzgerald met with chief U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan before he notified Rove. Hogan has been overseeing the grand juries in the CIA leak case. Fitzgerald’s spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined comment. Asked if the CIA leak investigation is still continuing, Samborn said, “I’m not commenting on that as well at this time.“

via abcnews.com

It’s interesting that the story jumped from a “letter” to a “phone call” so fast – almost as if someone thought, “hmmmm-what if they ask us to release the letter?”

I don’t know that there is enough of anything to speculate about, but I think people should be ready for a situation where the most that happens is Rove testifies in Libby’s trial about their conversation and that’s it.

There could be lots more. There could be a deal, info on conspiracy, info on people palying fast and loose with emails, etc. But there could be no more as well. Even if there is “more” on the facts front, there could be “no more” on the public facts front and that wouldn’t have anything to do with what the prosecutor wants to do; it would have a lot to do with the rules of the game.

There is a lot of focus on the grant to the prosecutor as being some huge, overwhelming carte blanche, but it isn’t. His focus of investigation is narrow and other than the obstruction, conspiracy etc. matters, he does not have the unilateral authority expand his scope to other matters that he might come across. He has been given access to classified information, most of which he is constrained to not share. He has been given access to privileged information, most of which he is constrained to not share. He has professional and departmental rules and obligations and he was appointed in a manner that does not allow for any report to be filed or released.

All in all, there are some signficant hurdles that the WH can very legitmately put in his path or that he has to put there himself. The fact that he has been able to put out what he has, while staying in the lines, is more of an accomplishment than I think is recognized. Getting the info out that the President himself directed and authorized the NIE leak – to me it is still amazing he was able to put that out.

But if there have been sealed proceedings that have resulted in putting brakes on things, we just won’t know. At least, not from his offices. If there are deals that have been cut – great. If not, in the end you have to remember that playing fast and loose with the rules of the game is a bad bad bad idea, even if it accomplishes short term goals.

As much as everyone might be happy with the Miller/jail outcome, the truth of the matter is that from a public perception standpoint that absolutely opened the door wider to prosecution of people like Risen and Lichtblau. There were fine legal differences involved, but there were also legal overlaps. Every decision has long term consequences. Sometimes that means that the snake gets to slither off.

I hope that’s not the case here and there certainly could be a lot more positive surprises, but if there are not, that’s the way it goes. You can despise this President, but still understand that Executive privilege needs to be protected. Despise Cheney and Addington and Rove, and still realize that classified information should no more be used as a football by a prosecutor than by the president.

It’s a frustrating mess when we have unethical SOBs running the Exec branch and the Legislative branch is whipped and the Judicial branch is being sidestepped and disenfranchised – but having more people in the Executive branch to the wrong thing doesn’t make it better in the end.

I don’t care if Rove walks or not – I just want someone to stick with the rules. If they do that and put aways bad guys too, that’s just more to the good.

cbl @ 47 & 104

How could you overlook the casting of someone to play Valerie Plame?!?

Let’s see. . . blond, trim, sparking eyes, infectious smile . . . How about Jane Hamsher? Yes, I know her work has been behind the camera to this point, but I think she’s ready to step out in front for a closeup or two.

;)

Thanks Pach!

This sounds like the prosecutor is building a case about a conspiracy in the leak / outing of VPW and trashing of Joe Wilson. Someone got the ball rolling and then set his seconds to do the deed. It appears that this was probably Cheney who wanted to trash opposition to the war and the first real powerful one to rain on his parade was JW in his times OpEd. You would need to get the people who did the deed to rat on Cheny and to do that you might have to trap them in some other lies and offer them a deal if they give up the lead of this op.

Ultimately you need to get to the person who started this whole thing not just those who lied to cover their asses and there were a bunch of them as well as the echo chamber effect of “I heard it from him”… who said “I heard it from her” and so on.

Libby doesn’t want to be the only one to take a hit on this and he may be too loyal to give up Cheney… believing he can beat the rap of get a pardon if he plays out the clock.

Rove may know that Bush will pardon cheney if cheney resigns to fight a charge… and so he agreed to talk and save his ass from a purjery charge.

But isn’t there a conspiracy here? Aren’t there more than one involved in this leak matter?

Pach at 112:

Bravo!!

The only association I ever saw between FDL and J*s*n L**p*ld was when the spam filters had to be adjusted in order to prevent “enthusiasts” from constantly re-posting his non-story links over here. There’s no association, and there never has been.

Who are all these people telling FDL what it’s all about, anyway? This is one of the silliest threads I’ve ever seen — may I offer a not-so-warm welcome to those who say today’s the end of Plamegate?

Wow.

Pachacutec @ 111

was waiting for that – good on ya

Peterr,
thought of Maggie Gyllenhaal for Valerie

Pach (8:28am) — only flames of love, Pach. Thank you for that boot in the arse. We need to get our tough love on, more ways than one here in the progressive sphere.

Uh..Clem:

And once again with all due respect to Pach, I recall this site growing its wings primarily on the basis of reporting on Fitzgerald’s investigation and providing some very good legal analysis to that end. I think it’s a wee bit disingenuous to now act like Fitzgerald’s investigation was never the main focus around here and that it was always all about grassroots politicking.

Bullshit. This site did make it’s name and break out ot its audience on the Plame case. When the Plame story makes news, we write about it. “Main focus?” Why don’t you go through the posts day by day and count up how many have been about Plamegate and how many are about other things. Your anaylsis is bullshit. You’re the one being either imsinformed or disingenuous.

Though FDL never explicitly said they were doing anything beyond speculating about Rove’s potential indictment, other progressive sites were not quite so prudent. Jason Leopold’s grand pronouncements about Rove’s imminent indictment are now making us ALL look like schmucks, simply by association. That definitely affects us and any grassroots influence we might have.

Okay, is there anyone else’s writing you want us to take responsibility for? Did you ever see this site rely on Truthout? No? Then you’re full of shit. This site has been quite the contrast to Truthout, and if yo’re gong to piss and moan about what they write at The Corner, then I suggest you make that place your home and do your commenting there. If they are the ones whose thinking you worry about, then talk to them about what they write.

uh…clem, points all well taken. I agree with most of what you say.

But as a wise man once said, “There are known knowns and there are unknown knowns, and there are known unknowns, and there are –”

Fuck it, let’s wait for more info before we start doing post-mortems. We don’t know what’s “actually in front of us” at this point. No one does. Let’s not choose now to take everything Luskin and the mainstream media say as gospel.

may I offer a not-so-warm welcome to those who say today’s the end of Plamegate?

Instead of dejected trolls, let’s call them cry-in-your-beer trolls.

Hooray for Pach!

don’t think there is disarray in the whitehouse. they are simply moving some of the bigger pieces on the chess board. if rove is flipping on cheney, it’s certainly planned so don’t expect daggers to start flying within the inner circle. they are simply preparing plan b which is to give up cheney, delay to keep him out of jail, then pardon at the last possible moment.

if cheney were 10 years younger and a bit more popular, they’d be tossing karl under the bus instead. every move is calculated… on both sides of this case…

As much as I would love to believe it I just cannot see Rove flipping on Cheney – it doesn’t even seem within the realm of possibilities. If Bush wanted Cheney out he could get someone to tell him to get out without having to leave in the cloud of a scandal. Any prosecution of Rove would/could be dragged out until close to 2008, and is there any doubt the he would be pardoned as Bush was heading out the Whitehouse door? If his daddy would set the precedent of pardoning guys with the blood of tens of thousands of people on their hands why wouldn’t W pardon Libby and Rove if he had to?

Maybe Rove is cooperating with Fitz but it seems that guy so dedicated to the cause would not rat out the Big Guy (unless, of course, the powers that be decided it was in the best interest of the Repub permenant majority………..)

Is there any relationship to Bush being out of the country and this Rove nonindictment happening now?

This is BAD news for Bush, and here’s why:

1. Rove retains his security clearance, and the media must ask why.

2. Samborn, Fitz’s spokesman, has nothing to say.

3. There’s an onoging investigation, and Tony Snow will have to say those words as soon as he’s asked about Rove.

Remember when Ken Lay got convicted, and some talking head spun it as “good news for Bush?” C’mon people, we need to frame and spin, too. Today’s news is BAD news for Bush!

PS. Tom Edsall took my question (although he re-wrote it) over at today’s chat, his last at the WaPo.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01219.html

But understand that when you vent your negativity and despair you are hurting the movement.

Oh, for fuck’s sake, Pach…

Do you honestly think that not couching everything in terms of sugar and puppy dogs when something like this happens “hurts the movement” any more than jokers like Leopold spouting off a bunch of baseless bullshit on progressive websites “hurts the movement”?

Or that somehow a boatload of posts about how Rove must have flipped if he didn’t get indicted is somehow going to make us look better than simply facing up to what’s happened and admitting “Yeah, this is bad news and it may prove to be a setback for us on one or more levels,”?

How in the hell could taking an honest look at what’s happened here be damaging to the movement? Isn’t honesty what we’re supposed to be striving for in the first place?

No, I knew that the the machine wouldn’t roll over.

I also think that they make their biggest and most stupid moves when they think that the sun always shines on them and that their doody smells like fresh baked brownies.

They are going to open up the spigots of arrogance and hubris and they are going to fuck up even more than when they were hiding under the blankets.

-GSD

Thanks Pach…you are so right…my head is just so messed with today….

This just in from Joe Wilson’s attorney: (via Rawstory)

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0613.html

“While it appears that Mr. Rove will not be called to answer in criminal court for his participation in the wrongful disclosure of Valerie Wilson’s classified employment status at the CIA in retaliation against Joe Wilson for questioning the rationale for war in Iraq, that obviously does not end the matter. The day still may come when Mr. Rove and others are called to account in a court of law for their attacks on the Wilsons.”

Perhaps that civil suit is being dusted off…

“I will give you all one day”

Wow Pacha- that’s pretty generous.

Uh… Clem. says
June 13th, 2006 at 8:27 am

Worker, hello! Your comment states the situation.

Rove just got his political balls back from out of Lady Justice’s purse. yuh -huh.

A serious crime has been committed by one of the most visibly evil political operatives this country has ever seen, and we are supposed to put on a happy face when he walks away, free and clear? Whether he has been flipped or not, this is just wrong, wrong, wrong,
This is NOT a complaint against FDL coverage of this issue, which has been exemplary.
This is a howl of outrage at the injustice of it.

I guess W couldn’t figure out how to work the Camp-David-to-Baghdad videoconferencing equipment, so he had to get on AFOne….

Do you honestly think that not couching everything in terms of sugar and puppy dogs when something like this happens “hurts the movement” any more than jokers like Leopold spouting off a bunch of baseless bullshit on progressive websites “hurts the movement”?

I’m talking about reality, not “sugar.” If you can’t see the difference, I can’t help you.

Or that somehow a boatload of posts about how Rove must have flipped if he didn’t get indicted is somehow going to make us look better than simply facing up to what’s happened and admitting “Yeah, this is bad news and it may prove to be a setback for us on one or more levels,”?

Show me one post on this site ever that says Rove must have flipped. Show. Me. One. If you can’t, then go take a reading comprehension course or STFU.

How in the hell could taking an honest look at what’s happened here be damaging to the movement? Isn’t honesty what we’re supposed to be striving for in the first place?

I’m being honest. Show me one claim I’ve made that’s not true. You’re being dense. Actually, when you accuse us of being “disingenuous,” then you’re not being dense. You’re being an asshole. If you want to make a credibility attack, then back it up or get lost. And don’t get upset when you get hit back for being wrong.

Pach channelling Jane! Yay!

Why is the New York Times reporting that Luskin received notification via a letter but the Washington Post is saying there isnt a letter?

Here is an email that I received from Fred Barbash at the Post when I inquired about the letter:

I don’t believe there’s any mention of a letter per
se…but
rather “formal” notification.

Fred

Fred Barbash
The Washington Post
1150 15th St., NW
Washington, DC 20071
(202) 334-7546
Fax: 202 496-3780

Here is what the Times’ David Johnston reported:

The decision by the prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, announced in a letter to Mr. Rove’s lawyer, Robert D. Luskin, lifted a pall that had hung over Mr. Rove who testified on five occasions to a federal grand jury about his involvement in the disclosure of an intelligence officer’s identity.

So which is it? Is there written proof of Rove’s clearance? Has he been completely cleared or is Luskin spinning like a top?

No matter what is going on with the leak investigation…we MUST now be on a higher alert for Rovian tactics….Rover will be on full take-down mode and he is wounded and wounded gargoyles are dangerous…Just let’s keep working hard and keep our eyes and noses open!

Please, Rove is not flipping on the evil eye. Keep in mind ppl, that Bush has extended Fitz’s employment for 4 more years. WHY ? In the bush admin, loyalty is what count.

Pach @ 122

Okay, now you’re just being a dick.

I’m sorry if not all of us are reacting to this the way you believe we should, but for Chrissakes, get the hell over yourself. Yes, you’ve personally done some excellent things on this site and I admire that.

But I’m sorry, that doesn’t make you the arbiter of what is and is not an acceptable viewpoint in terms of how people see and react to this latest bit of news.

And please… unless you’re insisting that FDL is the progressive movement in and of itself (which I am well aware that you’re not, of course) then you can’t then just turn around and try to act like FDL somehow exists in a vacuum in terms of the effect that other progressive websites have on it.

When I say that stuff like Leopold’s articles make us all look like schmucks, I’m talking about the fucking progressive blogosphere in general, and not just FDL.

And yes, even you admit that this site started out being primarily about the Plame case, so regardless of how it’s branched out over the past year or so, how in precisely the fuck can you sit there and act like anyone who was still concerned with the case as of today is out of line because of that?

If Rove is co-operating to avoid indictment,that is good politically for us.

He will get a more severe punishment in civil court,if a civil suit is filled.

A divided White House is great poltically,because one half is working against the other.Which side does the RNC take?

Does anyone think Dick is going to let “Karl the Rat” take him down without a fight?

Dick knows where “Karl the Rat’s” skeletons are buried.

OF CABBAGE-HEADS AND BOY KINGS

of Plame Outters and Nuke Peddlers and Jackoff Abramoff and Dummy Hasterts

of the ever-loving GOP and, ‘course, Fitz

And for a New Orleans lagniappe (little extra) a final note on the political elitists — Dem and Gop — at Take Back America.

EXCERPT
June 13, 2006 — WMR has learned from informed sources of a link between those who “outed” CIA counter-proliferation covert agent Valerie Plame Wilson and her Brewster Jennings & Associates cover firm and convicted GOP lobbyist Jack Abramoff. The link centers around convicted Israeli-South African nuclear components smuggler Asher Karni, a former officer in the Israeli Defense Force and Orthodox Jew who illegally smuggled 66 U.S.-made triggered spark gap nuclear detonators, via Cape Town, South Africa, where his company was located, to the Pakistan-based network of Abdul Qadeer (”A Q”) Khan, a major target of Plame Wilson’s CIA team. The A Q Khan network sold nuclear materials to Libya, North Korea, and most importantly, Iran. Karni’s end-user client for the nuclear triggers in Pakistan was Humayun Khan’s import-export Pakland Corp. Humayun Khan is no relation to A Q Khan.

Convicted Israeli nuclear smuggler to Pakistan Asher Karni linked to convicted GOP lobbyist Jack Abramoff

In a inexplicable development, after his arrest in Denver on Jan. 1, 2004, Karni was granted, over federal prosecutors’ objections, $100,000 bail by US District Judge for the District of Columbia Thomas Hogan. The government did not appeal Hogan’s bail decision and Karni was released to the custody of the Hebrew Sheltering Home in Silver Spring, Maryland. After pleading guilty to smuggling charges, Karni was sentenced on August 4, 2005 to three years in prison by US Judge Ricardo Urbina. Karni’s Turkish Jewish intermediary for the procurement of the nuclear triggers, Zeki Bilmen, owner of Giza Technologies of Secaucus, New Jersey, apparently died under suspicious circumstances in 2004 after Karni’s arrest by Federal agents. However, Giza Technologies remains in operation to this day.

WMR has learned of a link between Karni and Abramoff. Rabbi Herzel Kranz, the head of the Hebrew Sheltering Home in Silver Spring where Karni was housed after his bail, is also a colleague of Abramoff’s. The January 12, 2006 issue of The Forward contained an article citing praise of Abramoff by Kranz. At the time, Abramoff had just pleaded guilty to federal fraud and racketeering charges. Kranz praised Abramoff for donating to Jewish projects and, referring to Abramoff’s conviction, said, “people make mistakes.”

The Turkish nexus of the Karni-Bilmen-Humayun/A Q Khan smuggling network was of primary interest to both the CIA and FBI. It is also noteworthy that Judge Hogan, who dealt with the Karni case, was also the judge who ordered the FBI raid of Louisiana Democratic Representative William Jefferson’s congressional office. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, who has reportedly been under investigation for receiving Turkish campaign donations and his ties to Abramoff, strongly condemned the FBI raid of Jefferson’s office. After Hastert’s protests, the Justice Department leaked word to the media that the Abramoff scandal extended to include Hastert.

Essentially, Abramoff money was being used by the Justice Department as a weapon against Bush administration critics. WMR has also learned that Abramoff’s money was also used to blackmail other members of Congress who were investigating the Israeli connection to nuclear smuggling and the A Q Khan network.

There is also evidence that some of the highly classified CIA information convicted Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin passed through American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) staffers Steve Rosen and Keith Weisman to Israeli agents attached to the Israeli embassy in Washington dealt with Iranian nuclear development and that CIA sensitive sources and methods not disclosed by the outing of Plame Wilson/Brewster Jennings were discovered in the leak of the CIA documents to AIPAC and the Israelis.

In any case, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is now dealing with a much larger case with the same limited budget and relatively small staff of prosecutors and FBI agents, in addition to a Justice Department that is dangerously using evidence gathered in the Abramoff money and influence-peddling probe as a political weapon against GOP opponents of Bush-Cheney policies. It is clear that the Justice Department is being politically manipulated and one effect of the high-level interference is likely today’s early morning announcement that Fitzgerald has decided that he does not plan to indict Karl Rove, one of the chief suspects in the Plame/CIA leak.

WMR is pursuing additional angles in this case.
—
June 13, 2006 — Pollster Stan Greenberg had some good news and bad news for attendees at the progressive Democratic “Take Back America” conference sponsored by the Campaign for America’s Future. The good news is that Democrats and Independents are even (high 60 percentages) in their opposition to Republican policies across the board — the war in Iraq, health care, loss of jobs through unfair trade deals, and stemming corporate corruption.

The bad news is that the Democrats are not offering any alternatives to capitalize on widespread disenchantment with the Democrats. The Democrats and Republicans are seen by a majority of Americans as elites who are not paying attention to the needs and concerns of the American people. “Bipartisan elitism” was mentioned by other speakers who warned that the Democrats had lost their way as representatives of the working class in America.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com

Read emptywheel:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/13/9339/59486

This Is Speculation:

Caveat: IANAL and this is obviously NOT based on any legal-type arguments. The following is my personal opinion only..

Here’s what I think: Rove is not flipping on anyone. Why not? Simple. He doesn’t have to. He’s a professional chess player and it looks to me like he’s just taken Fitz to a stalemate. He also knows that if worse comes to worse, a pardon is in his future (and for Libby as well). Long story short, he’s dealing from a position of power. He has no need to sweat. At best, Fitz has gained Rove’s cooperation in the Libby case.

Next, I’m going to step out on this limb a bit further and speculate that Cheney will also not be indicted — nor will he even be named as an unindicted co-conspirator.

Then let me completely saw the limb off while I’m standing out on it and speculate that Fitzgerald will announce sometime between today and Aug 15th that he is wrapping up the investigation and that no further indictments will be forthcoming. Christy is absolutely right to say that it’s not over until Fitzgerald says it’s over. But I’m guessing that it’s pretty much over.

Finally, Mr Libby will not serve even a single day in jail. If Iran-Contra taught us anything, it’s that criminals, if sufficiently high in the administration, are never held accountable. That’s not a Republican or Democrat thing… that’s just the way our system works. Rove is not going to be held accountable. Libby is not going to be held accountable. Cheney’s not going to be held accountable. Draw your own conclusions about Bush. Been there. Done that. Seen that. Nothing to see here. Please move along.

In short, I am speculating that it is time to call this one for Team Bush… point, game and match.

None of this should reflect badly on Mr. Fitzgerald, who clearly has conducted himself in a most professional manner. But unlike our president, Mr. Fitzgerald appear to respect the law. That limits the tools that are available to him.

More to the point, my position here all along has been that it is foolish to depend on Fitzgerald to do the work that Congress and especially the chickenshit Democrats refuse to do — i.e. step up to their constitutional obligation to provide meaningful oversight to the executive branch.

And lest you think I’m just being snarky, let me say that nothing would make me happier than to have the facts prove that this was the most foolish, outrageous, totally off-base, and utterly wrong post I’ve ever made on FDL. There is certainly no joy in Mudville.

I would relish the day that I’m forced to return to this post and eat a very large portion of crow. And the sooner, the better.

Clem,

Stop acting like this blog owes you a Rove indictment.

Grow up.

To the whiners: Get A Life.

The game goes on.

This continues to be the best site for analysis of Plamegate (and many other aspects of the RW machine).

For those wanting cheap political thrills, go over to Wayne Madsen.

Show me one post on this site ever that says Rove must have flipped. Sow. Me. One. If you can’t, then go take a reading comprehension course or STFU.
(Just a few)
OtisIsHungry says
June 13th, 2006 at 7:44 am

TheOtherWA says
June 13th, 2006 at 7:15

ESaund says
June 13th, 2006 at 7:47 am

travy says
June 13th, 2006 at 7:18 am

(plus Christie)

I have to say that immunity in exchange for cooperation is certainly something that has crossed my mind after the unusual multiple testimonial appearances before the grand jury that Rove made. And I have to wonder what that does mean, if so. And when we’ll find out.

Nothing wrong with speculating,imo, but saying it hasn’t occured is wrong.

Pach @ 139

LOL! Aw, blow it out your ass, pallie.

Are you actually suggesting that the comments on this site aren’t almost as integral a part of FDL as the articles themselves? That the posts about Rove having flipped don’t count as a significant part of the site?

If so, then why the hell are you getting so shitty about people venting their frustration and disappointment concerning this morning’s news about Rove not being indicted? I thought that this kind of venting “hurt the movement”.

But all the speculation about Rove having flipped has nothing to do with this site?

Come on, Pach… I may lurk a hell of a lot more than I post here, but I know for a fact (and have often hung my hat on that fact in the past, if you want to know the truth) that you’re a hell of a lot brighter than that.

Suggestion on turning off a long italics run on the NOLA thread? I already tried (/i) with the carats.

Mayan @ #90

I doubt that Fitzgerald could put him on a list of witnesses if he was still a subject in the investigation, or if indictments may still have been pending. Remember, as late as three weeks ago, the matter was still up in the air. Perhaps you’re thinking of Rove’s offer to testify voluntarily to the grand jury.

Or, Jason Leopold was theorizing about immunity for Rove a while back. Maybe that’s what you read.

But, no, I can’t find any previous evidence that Fitzgerald has already formally named Rove as a prosecution witness (unless that happened in court yesterday). That would have been big news, because it would have told everyone in Washington that he’d flipped. Karl wouldn’t even be able to hail a taxi without someone finding out what he said to the driver.

And Team Libby would be going nuts over the prospect. Just watch for the fireworks from their direction when it does actually happen. They probably know, from the announcement today, that that’s what’s going to happen, and they can’t be pleased about it.

Remember that there was a Libby pre-trial hearing scheduled yesterday, and Luskin’s announcement may be related to filings made then. Fitzgerald has been holding some documents related to Rove that Team Libby has been trying to get their hands on. Rove’s status (still being investigated or not) would figure prominently in whether they get them.

Cheers.

Negative, schmegative.

Tell your elected representative to END THE DAMN WAR! If they won’t work to END THE DAMN WAR, work to elect someone who WILL!

Fuck Rove, he’s not even a zit on the ass of America.

Get over it and work to END THE DAMN WAR and let’s get some universal health care while we’re at it….

And yes, even you admit that this site started out being primarily about the Plame case, so regardless of how it’s branched out over the past year or so, how in precisely the fuck can you sit there and act like anyone who was still concerned with the case as of today is out of line because of that?

This site began in 2004, but traffic went through the roof because the Plame writing here was the best, once Fitzmas started brewing. It’s not accurate to say this site was founded on the Plame case. Again, please take a class in reading comprehension. Reread what I actually wrote, or take your straw man someplace else.

But I’m sorry, that doesn’t make you the arbiter of what is and is not an acceptable viewpoint in terms of how people see and react to this latest bit of news.

I’ll argue my point of view. You have a problem with that? Again, you know how to find the door.

And please%u2026 unless you’re insisting that FDL is the progressive movement in and of itself (which I am well aware that you’re not, of course) then you can’t then just turn around and try to act like FDL somehow exists in a vacuum in terms of the effect that other progressive websites have on it.

Again, your attempt to make us somehow responsible for the actions of others is asinine.

When I say that stuff like Leopold’s articles make us all look like schmucks, I’m talking about the fucking progressive blogosphere in general, and not just FDL.

I agree Truthout needs to answer for Leopold. I repeat my recommendation that if you have a problem with the arguments of error-by-association coming from the Corner, then head over to the Corner.

Mary 113–

Once again, thank you for your good sense.

Though you certainly haven’t cornered the market in that commodity on FDL, you sit on our largest single deposit of it.

It’s probably best to assume that this Fitzy thing is over- we might be pleasantly surprised down the road- but act as if it’s over.

This is an important year. The House and the Senate are still in play. Goopers are making a strong move right now to get out of the mud- and Clusterfuck is doing some things that may have an effect.

If your opponent is beginning to score- you figure out a way to score more- or you figure out a way to shut him down. You don’t pretend that he’s missing.

This really doesn’t change much of anything as far as this year’s battle is concerned. It’s always been an uphill struggle but one that can be won.

I don’t believe in Jason Leopold, but I don’t believe in Gold Bars Luskin, either.

Remember, folks, Fitz’ investigation has been declared dead, oh, about eleventy-five billion times in the past. And it’s usually right before he does something spectacular, like jailing Cooper, jailing Miller, or indicting Libby.

Let’s look at the known facts, not what Gold Bars is spinning:

1) Has Fitzgerald disbanded the Grand Jury? No.

2) Has Rove been to the GJ at least five times (that we know of)? Yes.

3) Do innocent people get called five times before any GJ that’s not run by a hack like Ken Starr? No.

4) Following #3, if Rove is in fact guilty as sin, how does he free himself? By offering up somebody else’s scalp.

5) Who possess the only scalps Fitz would value over Rove’s own? Bush and Cheney.

6) What would happen to the GOP’s 2006 chances if Bush pardoned Libby, Rove and/or Cheney? Can you say “House Judiciary Committee Chair John Conyers”? I knew you could.

Taking all of this into account, it sounds as if Rove has managed to sell Cheney to Fitz — or at the VERY least, guarantee that Libby gets a prison cell.

egregious 154

Suggestion on turning off a long italics run on the NOLA thread? I already tried (/i) with the carats.

try a schtick instead

Stop acting like this blog owes you a Rove indictment.

Jesus fucking Christ, people… who the hell ever said THAT?

Are we not allowed to express divergent opinions on what the ramifications of a given piece of news may be?

Just because Pach is accusing me of attacking FDL doesn’t make it so. I am not. I may be taking issue with his dogmatic attempts to bark orders at us this morning as to how we should and should not post about this matter, but for Chrissakes… how does that translate to attacking FDL or “demanding that it owes us a Rove indictment” or any of that nonsense?

Crikey…

The commenters on this site are not the post of this site. You can’t tell the difference? You want Jane and Christy or me to endorese every comment as if it were our own? If we did that, this would not be a community. So cut the bullshit.

Christy in this post did not say Rove flipped. She said, based on her proecutorial experience and examination of the information available, that such a turn of events is possible. Again, learn to read.

rove is not clean… he clearly lied to the investigators and the faulty memory defense would never have worked as the timeline of his activities in the summer of ‘03 was too tight. today’s announcement from luskin does not change all that we KNOW from reading this site. speculation may rage here in the comments but, there has been excellent, solid analysis that clearly shows rove’s culpability in this is too great and a case against him would not have been thin.

i’m saving my champagne for fitz’s next press conference. whether i’m triumphantly drinking from the bottle or crying in my glass remains to be seen though…

Patches cops to a DUI.

http://www3.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO20939

-GSD

pach @112 Right on. But I get the feeling the larger percentage of us are not freaking out – sure, a few lurkers have suddenly posted only to jump ship..

..But the majority is still high with optimism after Yearly Kos. I guess those lurkers weren’t getting the same vibes from Yearly Kos that the rest of us progressives got..

Pach

Thanks for the link to Marcy’s piece. I remain unconvinced, but she has also labeled her opinion as speculation. That her speculation is much more informed than mine is without doubt. I also hope that her speculation is much more correct than mine.

Zarqawi’s death has meant exactly zero. Nothing has changed on the ground in Iraq, which makes sense since most of the chaos is Iraqi v. Iraqi and not the work of al Qaeda.

The Iraq Summit was a meeting of the same incompetents who brought us the war in the first place. The same people who have yet to get anything right. The same people who continue to believe that if they just clap loud and long enough, Tinkerbell will not die. NO ONE IS BUYING WHAT THEY ARE SELLING.

Rove thinks the way to go is for Republicans to run on Iraq. Great – fine! Please do. It’s been a colossal failure from the get-go, so please – remind the voters often that this is the GOP’s baby. Remind them so they’ll think about the billions of dollars spent over there, much of which has gone to greedy contractors all-too-chummy with Cheney. Remind them of the people who got rich off the war, while residents of the Gulf Coast continue to live in third-world conditions almost a year later. Remind them so we can talk about how our military infrastructure is falling down around our ears.

And while you’re at it, run on security – we’ll run on securing the borders and ports. Run on the Constitution, we’ll run on preserving it, not shredding it. Run on gay marriage – we’ll run on better policies that help keep families intact. Run on the economy – we’ll run on improving wages and getting spending under control. Run on Medicare prescription drug coverage – we’ll run on getting more people health insurance and allowing the government to negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies for the best prices on drugs. Run on energy, so we can run on a real energy policy that weans us off oil. We’ll also run on accountability and responsibility, on standards that the GOP doesn’t have.

All these little PR moves and photo ops? Too little too late.

As for today’s Plame-angst, I agree that winning in November goes a long way to setting things back on the right track. But elections will not right the wrongs perpetrated by those within the administration, who have thumbed their noses at the laws, the Constitution and the American people.

People are hungry for accountability. Other than Irving, who within the administration has been called to account for his or her actions? NO ONE.

If someone’s perception of me as a liberal and as a Democrat is hurt because accountability is something I expect from my elected representatives, as well as from the people who work with them, all I can say is that the problem is with them, not me.

I understand that we have to keep moving forward, that we have to work for a better future, but I think we are capable of multi-tasking; being angry or upset at the Plame developments is not being taken as a reason to stop moving forward, but as normal and expected emotions that are accompanyiny us on the journey, providing impetus and motivation.

/rant

Like it or not, this is being spun as a slap in the face to dems, comlete with demands for apologies, and a boost for the WH.

sunny,

Those are “comments”, not posts. BIG difference. Anyone can comment here, including the bizzaros that have commented that 9/11 was an inside job for example.

If so, then why the hell are you getting so shitty about people venting their frustration and disappointment concerning this morning’s news about Rove not being indicted? I thought that this kind of venting “hurt the movement”.

Another non-sequitor. The blog writes what it writes. The commenters write what they write. Blog hosts engage in comment and sometimes debate with comenters, as we are doing now. To suggest that because I am engaging in a debate in support of progressive movement building carries any implication that the site endorses all comments as its own is bullshit.

sunny:

And pushing back on that starts with this conversation here. Uh..Clem is trying to hold us responsible for claims we nevr made and the writing of others. That’s bullshit.

But in all fairness to those who’ve freaked out and lost hope, I’d probably be there too if it weren’t for all the brilliant posters here on FDL who can make sense of this so easily. Thanks for giving my brain something to chew on.

I’ll argue my point of view. You have a problem with that?

As will I and any other poster on this site who wishes to do so. You have a problem with that?

Again, you know how to find the door.

Ah, “Love It Or Leave It”. I’ve heard that one before.

Again, your attempt to make us somehow responsible for the actions of others is asinine.

And you accuse ME of setting up straw men? Jesus, Pach… you really are a piece of work this morning.

I NEVER attempted to make FDL responsible for the actions of others. What I did say, though, was that FDL feels the effects of the actions of others.

As for the role that the FDL comments do or do not play in the identity of the overall site… were you or were you not browbeating people earlier this morning for venting about the Rove thing in the comments section, accusing us of “hurting the movement” with our posts?

Are the comments here that significant or not, Pach? You currently seem to want to shift your position on that to suit the needs of the moment.

Dear Parachutec,
I am not talking about FDL’s postings. I am talking mainly about the incorrect posting by Jason Leopold, which although it was not picked up by much of the mainstram media was widely repeated by other media outlets, and reverberated widely in the blogosphere as a result. I know this because I googled Karl Rove-indictment on the day Leopold posted his story, and found that many international news outlets were picking it up. It also generated much fevered discussion, at least half of it supporting Leopold. I also wonder: will he now out his sources, who got it so wrong? Will you ask him?
Carol the journalist

sunny,

Those are “comments”, not posts. BIG difference. Anyone can comment here, including the whack jobs that have commented that 9/11 was an inside job for example.

Cozumel, I’ll give you that, but I did quote Chrities speculation, which started the ball rolling on those kinds of comments. I also said there was nothing wrong with that imo. It is just putting toohappy a face on something that is absolutely a miscarriage of justice, whether or not he has flipped- Rove is frigging walking away from it, regardless.

I am not a criminal defense lawyer or prosecutor so I am a little adrift here but “formally advised”, the words used in Luskin’s statement, seem to be terms of art. What does it mean for a prosecutor to “formally advise” someone that they will not be indicted? Is is a letter, a motion, a plea agreement filed with the court? What?

sunny- how else would they spin it? and they still won’t comment on the “ongoing investigation” so something is up. if it were all over, they’d throw a fucking parade…

Just because Pach is accusing me of attacking FDL doesn’t make it so. I am not. I may be taking issue with his dogmatic attempts to bark orders at us this morning as to how we should and should not post about this matter, but for Chrissakes%u2026 how does that translate to attacking FDL or “demanding that it owes us a Rove indictment” or any of that nonsense?

You said we’re being disingenuous, as in dishonest. That’s an attack. Confronted with your inability to provide one shred of evidence to support that claim, you keep changing the subject to one illogocal irrelevancy after another.

“Dogmatic?”

I’m making an argument to the community. If I wanted to control all debate I would be deletig comments. But I don’t do that unless they are abusive or racist. I’ve given you a little more latitude here to say things to me I would ordinarily not allow to be directed at other community members because I’m being generous. But that won’t last long.

On “The Movement”.

If the blogs are to become a “movement”- they will need to trade in the currency that politicians understand- money and votes.

It will need to get into the area of power that the NRA has. (I don’t know how much money and how many votes the NRA can muster- but someone needs to find out).

It will also need power brokers- people who can deal with politicians- people who can DELIVER the money and votes they are bargaining with- and they will need to get significant and visible concessions in return for the money and votes.

The Power Brokers- in order to deliver- will have to be able to discipline the rabble-quell dissent- and get em to pony up for a few very specific races or issues.

Can it be done?

Perhaps. But it will require a degree of regimentation that is likely to be anathama to those who use the blogs as a way of expressing their own opinions- not as a place to go to be told what to do or think.

It will be interesting to watch this movement take shape.

A local labor meeting is probably a good model to have in mind. (they are, in my experience, chaotic).

Pachacutec: I am taking the liberty of reproving one of the owners of this website – yourself. I think it is completely appropriate to be rude to freepers but it seems like poor debating skills on your part to get so steamed at those who are less than overjoyed that Rove can be called “innocent”.

Here it goes…..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..22901.html

Sorry for the double or more post!?

sunny 166 —

Screw that spin, sez I. The goopers WILL get their wagon fixed IF we keep focused on our own work and stop oooin’ and wowin’ over theirs. Look at where theirs is taking them these days: straight down. Look at where ours is taking us: straight up.

Let’s GO today — on Net Neutrality, the VA primary, and all the other ROOTSing we have to do.

Now wander on upstairs, hon — NOLA needs your support.

Uh..Clem is trying to hold us responsible for claims we nevr made and the writing of others.

No, I’m fucking not.

That’s your own little straw man, Pach. I’m not trying to hold FDL responsible for the writing of others, I’m merely arguing with you for accusing people of “hurting the movement” for being frustrated over the news about Rove, and for pretending that there’s something wrong with being concerned the Rove issue and the Plame case on a site where that whole story has ALWAYS figured prominently.

Get over yourself, pal.

Why not direct questions about truthout to truthout?

“Fevered discussion” in…. the blogosphere? the international media? the mainstram media? Not sure who needs to be asked, but the crickets you hear chirping represent a decided lack of interest here in L**p*ld and his “reporting.”

Hi Pach!

As Crig Crawford says…WE better get moving..waiting for Clusterfukk to fail isn’t going to work….Rover is back to 100% we have alot of work to do folks.

Carol:

I don’t recall whether or not we have ever called on Turthout to come clean and take responsibility for, shall we say, extremely suspect reporting from the front page. I expect Jane, Christy or certainly I have done so in the comments. We have certainly done so in non-public communications. We have generally not wanted to drive traffic over there so as not to associated ourselves with their, er, “work product.”

Our focus is on our work, on this community and the building of the Roots Project as part of the progressive movement.

travy-
They pretty much are throwing a parade. See my comments above re demanding apologies from dems; Noron said something like this was a “slap in the face” to dems.

You said we’re being disingenuous, as in dishonest.

No Pach, I merely said that YOU were being disingenuous.

Good fucking God…

So it’s not an attack on FDL, it’s a personal attack on Pach?

Not sure you’re helping yourself there, U….C

I’m doubtful Rove is cooperating. I just don’t see him ratting out The Big Dick. And if he was, I don’t see Fitz letting him off without making him cop a plea to something. I’ve gotten “don’t anticipate seeking an indictment” letters in cases where the prosecutor just gave up.

I hope I am wrong.

The goopers are trodding out all their MSM trolls…Noron et al are reading their Comstock and Rover faxes…..They knew yesterday afternoon Rover would be cleared and they put together their strategy for today…they had almost 24 hrs to do it, WONLY Dean has responded in kind and very effectively…where are responses from Reid and Pelosi etc???

Holy Cow, I haven’t seen this much pissing since nickle beer night….The fact of the matter remains that over 2k soldiers and countless civilians are dead because of a lie, freedom of dissent is now relegated to ‘free speech zones, elections are suspect, Congress is now an arm of the executive branch-the indictment of Rove would not have changed these and other facts-the MAJORITY of us need to join to stop the above abuses to out freedoms in anyway we can-

As I said, I knew I would be flamed for calling out despairing thinking. No problem on that for me. I never said people here have to agree with me.

Clem, if you go back through our exchange, I have quoted claims you made about our statements on the blog that are factually incorrect, and then when you try to back up those claims, you cite the statements of people other than me, Jane or Christy, or our guest front pagers. I would call that argument closed. You’ve tried to hold us accountable for others’ statements.

If Fitz is communicating, then he must have concluded a phase in the case. At least it’s movement. We might know something soon, good or bad.

Why does the Manchester article (ccmask 92) say “grand jury’s disbandment?” I thought it was a REG – U – LAR grand jury. /snark

Ok, if you’re calling me liar, I’m dead serious: back it up or get out. Make your case to the community and let the “jury” of the community decide.

infotainment:

I hear you. But when the attack makes claims about my credibility I reserve the right to express very clearly and bluntly why that’s bogus.

I’m getting bored with this exchange as I’ve refuted every bogus claim made about me or this site. I’m inclined to move on.

As elements of FDL break down into a flamewar……..

From Craig Crawford.

“In a week’s time, he saved a congressional seat, killed a top terrorist, spared his political guru and flew to Baghdad. Without a stronger presence at the top of the “ticket,” Democrats cannot nationalize the midterm campaigns in a way that gives them any hope for a majority.”

This is no time for bickering, the Bush-rightwing is launching a full on counteroffensive.

So let’s get moving in a better direction.

-GSD

Pach…just a suggestion…How about a response to the announcement from you in the form of a post…you are such a brilliant writer…We all love your work………Respond the way you want to, as Howard Deean did in his response…I think it will help all of the blogosphere who will read it, and who right now have lost focus due to this announcement…We know you want us to get out there and work…but what happened today needs a response, not just”it isn’t over till Fitz says it is”, tell us how you fell about Rove being cleared?

lotus-

I say screw it, too.

Screw the whole damn Bush gang.
Screw the whole corporate media.

But where is justice?
I want/ wanted justice.
And GODDAMMIT I AM MAD AS HELL THAT THERE WILL BE NONE FOR KARL RATFUCKING ROVE.

I dunno, my spidey sense is tingling. This ball starts rolling and the prez is offshore? Justice may or may not be served but I believe in Patrick Fitzgerald. How can I not? He and I wouldn’t agree about much in the way of policy but the fact that he appears to be so singleminded in his pursuit of the execution of the law buoys my heart. If tomorrow he were to indict Al Gore because he discovered that he had broken the law I would approve. Nothing is more gratifying than the sight of the powerful being called to account for their abuses. I believe in Patrick Fitzgerald and people like him who seek the truth and do not flinch when they find it.

Franco:

I’ll consider it. I’m inclined to let people digest the news a bit first. Maybe tonight or tomorrow. This debate in the comments is all part of that process.

Thanks.

You’ve tried to hold us accountable for others’ statements.

Again Pach, no I have not. You’ve simply chosen to try to interpret it that way.

All I fucking did from the outset was to post my feelings on the matter at hand, as have other folks here this morning, and you immediately started accusing us of “harming the movement” if we didn’t post the way you felt we ought to.

If I violated some nebulous set of rules by taking exception to that accusation, or by disagreeing with you Pach, then a thousand apologies to one and all. But I’m not sure I’m the only one here who felt you were being unreasonably heavy-handed, Pach. And I’m certainly not the only one here who was expressing their not-so-rosy opinions on the ramifications of the Rove news.

But if you must make this all about me somehow attacking FDL, then so be it. That was never my intention, and it wasn’t what I was doing, but so be it.

TPM Muckraker called Luskin and his comment is:

Responding to news that Karl Rove’s lawyers say they’ve been notified the Bush adviser won’t get charged in the Plame leak investigation, Reader AB asks, “is it reasonable for them to publish the letter from Fitzgerald to prove that their statement says is, in fact, true[?]”

We thought it was a good question — noting, however, that news reports conflict on whether Rove’s lawyer, Robert Luskin, received a letter from Fitzgerald. Luskin himself stated he was “formally advised,” but does not state how.

I called Luskin at his office and told him I was interested to know precisely how Fitzgerald had notified him of his decision. “I’m really not going to add anything to what’s in the statement,” Luskin told me.

Why not? I asked. “The reason is, that’s what we’ve decided to do.” (There’s a $500-an-hour answer for you.)

He also contacted “Truthout.” More at link.

I’ve been guilty of wishful thinking in the Rove matter. I had a bet with a neighbor that Rove would be indicted. He wanted to be paid when Libby went down- I said- “No wait”.

Well today I’m paying up- and I am expecting NOTHING out of Fitzy. If he delivers something- well that will be nice- but I’m sure as hell not expecting it.

TritoneSubstitution-

If Fitz indicts Al Gore tomorrow, my head will literally explode. ;~(

I understand the urge to hold onto hope that somehow Rove hasn’t gotten away with what he’s done, and I also understand the urge to pretend that the possibility of his indictment never meant anything. I just tend to think that both approaches sort of skirt the edges of reality a little bit, and if we’re going to really continue to grow as a political force, we ought to be a little better at facing what’s actually in front of us…

so you’re saying it’s over, rove has skated and we should all apologize? who’s not facing reality now? the reality is that rove’s lawyer released an artfully worded statement that creates more questions then it answers. if you want to call this site to task, why not wait until it is indeed all over? otherwise, go piss on jason leopold’s morning, because the owners of this site have done NOTHING WRONG…

The above link brings ups Exhibits A-C which contain testimony by Libby given in the JOHN DOE case. Is that how the testimony in the CIA leak case was recorded?

Try this link instead
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/…..ts_a_c.pdf

Carol: Please cite places where coverage of the CIA Leak case here at FDL has been wrong. In the small places where we’ve gotten anything wrong. There has always been a correction. This blog never reported that Rove would be indicted. We speculated, and identified our speculation as (guess what?) speculation. Other than that, there’s nothing I can see to correct to the reporting and analysis done here.

—

well, I’d say months and months of spinning each bit of news/rumors re Rove in the most optimistic light possible (”can’t wait til the perp walk” types of spin) qualifies as being ‘
wrong.’ Each disappointment re Rove’s indictment was met with vigorous spin designed to explain the disappointment away. Does that make it ‘dishonest’ or ‘disingenuous?’ – No, that would require that you knew the facts. It’s more like an investment advisor who sincerely, but foolishly, tells his client to keep plunging into a stock that sinks and sinks and sinks, then, after the bankruptcy filing responds to the ruined investors by saying “how dare you personally attack me.”

Sunny-
I think you’re safe :^). I’m just voicing my support for a government functionary that I truly believe is a good man.

For those wanting a little more light to go with their heat, Sterling Newberry takes a longer-term, more comprehensive view here:

http://www.bopnews.com/archives/006466.html

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled FDL role-defining power struggle.

Clem:

We seem to be de-escalating. That’s good. Families can fight. I would ask for a retraction of your accusation that I’ve been disingenuous. I have no problem with people disliking what I said to the community about the negative effects of expressions of despair, even as I stated clearly I understand where it comes from. I have deleted no comments. I don;t agree with your interpretation of my statements but I see no need to go over all that ground again.

Damn, forgot to close that bold tag. Is there a way to do it?

end bold

I believe it too, Tritone. That is why I think the indictments have been quashed. I really believe Fitz put forth a monumental effort against a criminal organization. The problem is, his superiors had the power to request a quashing;and considering Fitz met with Hogan yesterday, and Sealed v. Sealed appeared the very week Fitz met personally with the GJ and rumors started about an indictment, I’d say that is much more likely scenario. Fitz did his job and was slapped down by Abu.

I hate to say it, but it looks like Fitz has been pursuing a much narrower case than most of us want to believe: The prosecutorial target is Scooter and Scooter alone. To paraphrase a scoundrel, Fitz will go to court with the case he has, not the case we wish he had. Rove was probably only too happy to flip on the human equivalent of a “modified limited hangout.”

So, don’t hold your breath waiting for a Cheney indictment. Don’t expect Rove to be ostracized from the White House power center. Rove’s “flip” is part and parcel of that power center’s strategy. Rove/Cheney et al are offering up a sacrificial lamb — think Ollie North; and the lamb ain’t gonna dish the dirt on his betrayers because he knows that by being a good little soldier and taking one for the team, he’ll ultimately be rewarded with a big fat presidential pardon.

Sigh. Nothing bad ever happens to them.

Couldn’t read all the comments but I have to say I agree with kirby @ 14 and wxyz @ 34…

Roll Over Rove must be cooperating in a major way to bring Cheney down. And, maybe some of the other players in Cheney’s realm. From some of the info in discovery motion responses it seems that Fitz concentrates on Cheney as behind Libby.

I remember there have been reports of conflicts between the Bush team and the Cheney team in the past. This can only escalate and affect their agenda.

Looking at how Fitz built some of his other successful cases, I trust that he is making smart moves as he goes after his primary target. I think Fitz is always looking for the strongest case against the highest player.

Hey congratulations to the new Iraqi Government. They have joined a place on that tired old rightwing bumper sticker.

“All those in favor of banning weapons, raise you hand” The picture shows Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Now they can add Nouri Al Maliki:

“BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) – Iraq’s new prime minister promised Tuesday to show “no mercy” to terrorists and said before President Bush arrived for a surprise visit that a long-awaited security plan for Baghdad will include a curfew and a ban on personal weapons.”

Forward this to a winger, demoralize them just as they were getting their hopes up.

-GSD

puzzled:

Well, if we are to take backlash for expressing hope that justice would be served specifically to Rove, then we can take that hit. We do thirst for justice, so we cop to that. And yet, we always labelled speculation as speculation, and facts as facts.

I don’t see that as being “wrong,” because being “wrong” would mean we claimed that Fitz had 22 indictments to make public just before Fitzmas, or saying that Karl Rove would be indicted within five business days. Someone made those claims, and it wasn’t us. Other people littered our comments with those claims, and we downplayed expectations based on that reporting in the comments.

Hopefully now we can have a stop to people SCREAMING at us in the comments about why we don’t report on Truthout’s reporting, or link to it.

I think we can all agree that there is a distinction between the perception of FDL being the best source for plamegate info and the reality that FDL is a progressive activist site with plenty of other appeal. Pach wasn’t disingenous in asserting that people’s perceptions don’t dictate reality. At Sadly No! I loves me some Swank snark but if Swank died (heaven forfend!) I doubt Brad et. al. would pull up stakes and start photographing kitties professionally.

I prefer to wait for announcements out of the Special Prosecutor’s office. Rove’s lawyer doesn’t speak for Fitz, and has his own reasons for releasing things like this. (Like a better deal, maybe?)

Personally, I hope Rove and Cheney are still under the Hammer of Justice.

IF the indictment was quashed, THEN…I am sure someone will find a way to get it leaked..THEN…..we will see what the Bushies have brought upon themselves with that action…..

Um…why are we fighting among ourselves?

Why isn’t this a safe place to say “the sky is falling” and expressing our concern and dissapointment.

When did we become like them, needing to stay with the message and having our “talking points” ready.

Why are the moderaters here attacking their loyal fans just because they are afraid of hurting the movement–isn’t un-progressive the same as un-american?

I did not come to this site to learn how to be a democratic operative.

rwcole says
June 13th, 2006 at 9:32 am

Might it be too soon for you to pay off your bet? Please give it some more time.

Visual speculation:

First, catch the snitch…Then put them to work.

;>)

For you lawyers…Once Fitz ends the investigation, are members of the Grand Jury free to speak out about what went on in the proceedings?
Geezz am I law challenged

(Tries to close Bold tag)

Pach, I will apologize to you for any harsh feelings that might have arisen between us in the course of our argument here. I will even go so far as to amend “disingenuous” to perhaps be “inconsistent”… though having read your stuff for so long, an “inconsistency” like this seems out of character, but fine, let’s chalk that up to it having been early morning (and maybe a little lingering headiness from the YKos thing this past weekend?)

I just thought that it was rather screwy for a bunch of us to catch hell for “hurting the movement” by posting our honest opinions, while wildly speculative comments posts about Rove having flipped didn’t have a comparable degree of effect.

I’m sorry that my choice of words in addressing that disparity offended you. Believe me, I think a number of us were probably similarly offended by being accused of “harming the movement” as though we didn’t care about it.

“We always did feel the same, we just saw it from a different point of view…”

Clem:

The Bob Dylan reference seals the deal.

In part, also, I did not want to leave claims about the integrity and the reporting of this site unanswered, because there is a wider audience. I’m thinking not only of the movement, but of Jane and Christy, and above all, the truth.

al-Scooter: LOL!

Phoenix – the grand jury is not a special GJ and it would not be disbanded, even if all further Plame related matters have been dropped.

You know, things could go so many different ways I don’t understand the need to nail it here. Or maybe it is just that the whole thing has left so many people feeling so powerless that the ability to craft “the answer” is a way to try to take a little control; but I think that’s like taking control of your life by becoming anorexic. Not healthy.

We may hear something Wed or Fri – or we may not. They may tell the GJ that their services on this matter are done, or they may not. Fitzgerald may go back to DC, or he may not (Zeidenberg is wrapped and waiting on Safavian and there are others who could make the trip). There may be an announcement that the investigation is now over, or not. There may be an announcement that the investigation has not yet closedbut no indictments will be sought against Rove, or not. There may be some sealed struggles going on right now, or not.

You could be the last to desert a sinking ship, or you could be the GITMO detainee hanging himself before getting the word that he was going to be transferred after all.

Sometimes frustration finds you, sometimes you find it. Frustration and I are BFF. *s*

Franco-

Someone leaking about quashed indictments is my most fervent hope at this point; I just hope they don’t leak to Jason Leopold.

See my comment above @ 8:08 on how we may discern the true nature of things from what Fitz may have to say.

Pach and Uh… Clem: Well done, chaps.

KristineJoy -

I agree, this should be a safe place for fellowship with other progressive minds. If you feel despondent, share it. For me, it makes me sad to see that arrogance and lawbreaking rule the hour, but the world is turning and even the most perspicacious can’t see what the next moment will bring. Also, there’s alcohol.

Just to show you how smug the ReTHUGs are….Here is what Mark Corallo sent to Jeralyn….No matter what you think of truthout…..it shows you the dept of their evilness

——————————————–

Mark Corallo
Corallo Media Strategies, LLC

Mr. Corallo added the following:

Jeralyn – it’s over. You might want to tell Marc Ash and Jason Leopold that they are free to leave the “lockdown” on the 4th floor of Patton Boggs anytime they wish. Frankly, we suspected they were just there for the free donuts all along…

Posted Tuesday :: June 13, 2006| Valerie Plame Leak

lotus, I second that emotion.

lotus, consider it thirded.

Comments 228 and 229:

Good deal. This is the best place that most of us know to come to for both facts and speculation. Feelings are all over the map at this moment, as is to be expected. Glad to see the comments section will stay civil, and penetrating.

The Bob Dylan reference seals the deal.

Ain’t it funny how ol’ Bob can sometimes do just exactly that? ;^)

In part, also, I did not want to leave claims about the integrity and the reporting of this site unanswered, because there is a wider audience. I’m thinking not only of the movement, but of Jane and Christy, and above all, the truth.

I appreciate that, believe me. And I swear that was NOT my intention. When I talked about “we” and “us” I honestly meant the wider grassroots progressive ‘Net-orientated movement and not just FDL, while simultaneously being aware that FDL plays a significant role in that movement.

And I think we’re ALL concerned with the truth. We may not always agree on what the best way to present that truth may be, or even sometimes what the specifics of that truth may be, but I don’t think any one of us here (even us lowly Commentarians) is any less committed to the truth than anyone else here.

“Anyways…” /Sheriff Bullock>

;^)

I don’t see that as being “wrong,” because being “wrong” would mean we claimed that Fitz had 22 indictments to make public just before Fitzmas, or saying that Karl Rove would be indicted within five business days.

—-

There weren’t many ‘facts’ about the Rove indictment in the first place…so the ‘blogsphere’ was flooded with speculation and, esp. from this site, ‘analysis’ of what facts existed. The ‘analysis’ here ramped up the hopes that Rove was going to get what almost everyone here thinks he deserves. It was analysis by wishful thinking. And, yes, we all engaged in it to various degrees.

My view is that our present disappointment no more merits the analysis givers on this site being tagged as dishonest or evil folk than it does the analysis givers carrying their feelings on their sleeves and engaging in the kind of ultra narrow defenses of their postings that would be worthy of Scooter’s defense team.

Cause, if we’re going to defeat the real forces of darkness out there, it’s probably not going to be done by runaway wishful thinking or pretending that it didn’t happen.

I just love seeing REALLY BRIGHT ARTICULATE people, make up………..Good on yous’

Aw dammit… my cutsie-ass little pretend-HTML quotes on that Deadwood quote got all wopperjawed there. Sorry ’bout that.

(I sure miss that auto-preview pane that was up here recently!)

Wait! Wait!

I strongly object to Bob Dylan. Have you ever been to one of his ’shows’. I mean, holy cow. Sure, the guy can write but can he perform? I don’t think so. Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. He may be able to laugh my criticism all the way to the bank but c’mon, Dylan as a unifying force? An ambassador of good will? Ha!

No. That will never do. I’m afraid the disagreement will have to continue. Nice try though.

I hope that one bad mistake — meaning Jason Leopold’s blatantly wrong story –does not tar the entire progressive blogosphere, including FDL. Unfortunately, many non-bloggers know only what they hear on TV about the blogs. And Jeff Greenfield was on Imus this morning pointing out that the incorrect Leopold post of May 13 is STILL THERE on the Truthout web site. Every minute that is not addressed by Truthout makes things a little worse for the rest of the blogosphere, in my view. There should be a collective request to Truthout to address this without delay.

Carol,

Of course not, but it would be a positive step if Jason did what he stated he would do and out his sources. That might just be the start of something worthwhile — just imagine, journalists holding their sources accountable. Sorta defies the imagination doesn’t it?

Carol E. Curtis,

“I hope that one bad mistake %u2014 meaning Jason Leopold’s blatantly wrong story %u2013does not tar the entire progressive blogosphere, including FDL”

Truthout isn’t on the blog roll here, end of story.

truthout standing by original reporting… not saying they are right, but someone with at least some sort of credibility told them of rove’s indictment and they aren’t backing away from their story…

i don’t think rove is being moved into witness protection as we speak, but a complete turdblossom exhoneration just doesn’t pass the smell test here. don’t want to “hurt the movement” but imo, this aint’ ova yet…

the opinions expressed in articles, linked materials, and comments are not necessarily those of firedoglake.

It’s still too early to say that anyone was wrong about much of anything. Furthermore, Luskin’s performance is lightyears away from my “My client’s innocence is proven” or “Yea!!!! We’re exhonerated!”. More like “We hope that we can stop talking about this and you’ll go away.” Not at all triumphant. It’s a victory and Luskin won’t talk about it? Please. He’d sooner piss on a sparkplug than pass up an opportunity to crow about his client’s innocence if it were all over. Believe that.

I have said from the very start rove would rat whoever he needed to to stay out of jail

the exact expression I used was “rove will roll over like the rover he is”

it looks to me as though rove has been teh fitsters source after all

The propaganda machine is sickening-almost to post 9/11 levels. If we can’t effectively counter this, and soon, (and we must assume, without help from national dems) we are in serious trouble. We have to get cracking Now.

To those questioning Fitzgerald’s motives or abilities, try to look at the bigger picture. As a resident of Illinois, I think the public could not be served better by Fitzgerald and his team. They are really nailing people to the wall for corruption here. Over 70 convictions in the Gov. Ryan/licenses for bribes scandal. If there was any way to get Rove, I am sure Fitzgerald wouldn’t hesitate to do it. They get an A .

hey, we can all just get along….

Pach, I respect your vociferous defense of all things FDL.
Uh..Clem brings up some valid points, too.
Thanks for making nicey-nice without giving up your respective positions.

A fundamental and hopefully enduring “value” of the FDL community is civility amongst commentors (Jane’s occasional lightning bolts, excepted, of course…).

I for one am totally bummed by today’s development, except for one small consolation — the only development is that Gold Bars Luskin told the press Karl is off the hook.

Like Christy says — when Fitz says he’s off the hook, then I’ll believe it.

But the reason I’m bummed is that after fighting these fuckers since 2000, I became convinced that it will take a special prosecutor to bring them down.

In calling them fuckers, my wrath is especially focused on the Dinosaur Corporate Media, for become a propaganda organ for the ugliest organized crime syndicate in American history.

I’m also totally bummed that these fuckers are doing their best to destroy everything I hold dear, and the DC Dems can’t seem to muster anything resembling a coherent message. That, and their love hate relationship with us — they love our money, but hate it when we don’t sit down and shut up.

Other than that, everything is great.

What do we do next?

Seems to me that even if it were a matter of a quashed indictment, the Rover team would be thumping their chests and bellowing right about now. Luskin’s statement was far too nuanced for that. Something’s still hanging around out there waiting to happen. With Bush out-conus too, c’mon, there’s cause for a little cautious optimism here.

I feel a new thread coming… :-)

What I find interesting is the conflicting stories about yesterday’s notification – if they are indeed conflicting. And I can’t figure out for the life of me why Luskin isn’t out shouting from the roof tops.

IF indictments were quashed-

Can Fitz reveal that fact?

If so, it would explain Luskins reluctance to gloat.

FYI, there has been a new thread and an excellent new post up for some time.

Pachacutec #81
Was that you on CSPAN last night asking the question?

If so, you look just like I’d imagined. If not, well, dang!

travy–love your closing tag line

tryggth–how did you know?

New Thread

…and yes, this Rove news is a real gut check, but I’ll stay with the long view of justice ultimately prevailing on higher-ups. No other outcome is right.

#130

Thanks for speaking up and offering a glimpse into your clear thinking reality.

I usually just lurk, and I admit I am not much of a joiner, prefering not to become a part of community where one is expected to be a part of the group think. If that is acceptable here then that is fine, but for someone so intricately involved in this community to slap down others who do not see reality as he?she does]

Is that heading toward grounds to be “banned” here or “shunned” by the response to this popular poster I wonder.

I Have seen this happen so many times where cliques form and support comes out in multiple posts cheerleading by supporting the post of one who is admired and who posts a lot.

That is fine. There is something for everyone–and I, at my age, do not take kindly to being lectured to, even if it were Carl Jung or Sigmund Freud!

The reality is that no one yet knows why Rove was let off the hook. NO ONE. ANY speculation is a free for all and so we can say either it is over, or we can say it ain’t over until the fat lady sings or we can imagine some very clever move on the part of Fitzgerald. Some choose to hang on–Fitzgerald here has been practically mythologized and it is somewhat of a pity that such hopes, almost such last hopes, were pinned on this as somehow being the thing that will bring down Bush and co.

Some choose to admit the facts–Rove will not be indicted or prosecuted. Let it go until some hard facts are revealed, leave the dreams and speculation and hopes that Fitzgerald has yet another trick up his sleeve and move on, continue on as best you know how to wrest control from the dirty hands of the Republicans in the next election.

Is that negative and whiney? Not as whiney or angry as complaints about others who are not ready to cheerlead this world of dreams re Patrick Fitzgerald.

If a quashed indictment falls in a forest…

I can’t imagine that there is a trigger that would allow Fitzgerald to reveal a sealed quashed indictment. I would think he either can or can’t without regard to Luskin. I also can’t imagine that Fitzgerald would have the authority to reveal the quashing and wouldn’t. I guess I just don’t have a very good imagination. I can however imagine that Luskin could be under a gag order. Then again I can’t imagine he would obey it. In any event he would be claiming vindication in no uncertain terms if Rove were in fact vindicated. Something seems amiss, that’s for sure.

kateNC:

What question? What panel?

The new thread is about NOLA, and the continued betrayal of the public trust by the BushCo Gangsters.

http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-not-okay/

This thread has kept going, in part because there is no need to highjack that discussion with this one.

Pac,

Saw the new thread but was more interested in discussing the Rove news so thought it was more appropriate to keep that discussion here on this thread. Sometimes threads have lives cut down in the prime of their existence. Didn’t want to ‘hijack’ the new thread with stuff that belonged here.

In other news:

Shorter Hillary: “I was AGAINST the war at the same time I was FOR it”

http://apnews.myway.com/articl…..DFD00.html

The crowd goes…. er, not so wild.

In an totally unrelated bit of OT news, Fresh Air has an interview with Mary Cheney — and KCUV is playing Led Zepplin’s Your Time Is Gonna Come — guess which I’m listening to?

Ed N Sted: agreed.

Air America has been pulled off AM 1390.
I believe it was a result of change in ownership.

Anyone here connected to that?
Anynoe here interested in trying to get Air America back to Atlanta?

Man, the news has only been out what, six, seven hours, and we’ve had circular firing squads galore, people having kittens, people having cows, exploding heads and mass cases of the Vapors.

And still no one KNOWS anything.

I lurk more than I post — I started back when this place was almost EXCLUSIVELY Fitz news — and it hurts to see that things get so unpleasant so quickly, particularly now when the site has become much much more than just a blog, it’s a real community that’s having an impact.

I came here for the fascinating, perceptive interpretations of the Plame case. I continued for the fascinating, perceptive and passionate dialogue on everything else. This place is a beacon, and it means a lot to me.

To the defeatists, wait for more facts. Calm down. To the rest, don’t let the anxieties of others create anxiety in you.

Like the man said: These are the times that try men’s (and women’s) souls.

Ok, We got kicked in the stomach.

Hard.

It hurts.
Bad.

Now, I’m not gonna start bawling.

As a matter of fact, I think this might be a good thing for another reason. (Besides the fact that he is OBVIOUSLY cooperating)

I think I might have been getting a little comfy that my (very capable) opponent was crumbling. Our opponent is tough and capable. But that’s ok. We’re tough and capable too. And we’re right.

And Right makes Might.

So, as far as I’m concerned, get your frustration out fast folks, cause there’s no time for long term belly-aching. Lash out, scream whatever, and then get back in line. This is a long fight, and we need to press on.

Now, when you’re ready, get back to work.

There’s an important primary today.
Net Neutrality
Letters to the Editors.
Spector and the NSA subpeonas.

Fight! God Dammit!

OR GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY

Porta

Couple of times things looked like they were headed for a John Aravosis moment but I think that has been sucessfully avoided.

If you’ve read my posts, you know I don’t normally buy into group think. Couple of days ago I even did the unthinkable and criticised a comment made by Emptywheel. No big deal and it really wasn’t on anything substantive. But quite happy to report I was not banned — though I am getting some very strange looks now.

’tis true. Luskin doesn’t say Rove was cleared of all wrongdoing. Just that there won’t be any charges filed. Interesting wording.

Aside from that, I hope this serves a lesson to all of you who link to crap internet sources like Jason Leopold merely because they write what you want to hear.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..124559/961

Bingo!

Not only do I accept the criticism, I invited it. I took that risk becasue I wanted to inject another point into the collective consciousness about taking power to ourselves to acheive the change we want to see around us.

I was never ready to ban anyone, and I got called some names or told to do some things I would never tolerate when directed at other community members. But even that lack of tolerance would have manifested itself in edited or deleted comments, not banning.

re crap internet sources.

Yeah, that be Jason Leopold, but I’m still curious about what he has to say now.

Uh…Clem 108 — if there’s been any irresponsibility here I think it’s lumping us in with Jason Leopold. I think you owe us an apology for that, and if there’s some place you think we’ve been out of line I think you also owe us a link.

Pach –

The best way to prevent a defeat from turning into a rout is to organize a counter attack –

How about a Net Neutrality frontal assault on Capitol Hill?

Flood the Senate with calls, faxes, emails, and constituent visits.

If ever there was a time to mobilize the Roots, THIS IS IT.

I strongly object to Bob Dylan. Have you ever been to one of his ’shows’. I mean, holy cow. Sure, the guy can write but can he perform? I don’t think so. Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. He may be able to laugh my criticism all the way to the bank but c’mon, Dylan as a unifying force? An ambassador of good will? Ha!

{ahem…}

Okay. Yes. Harry Carey WOO-HOO! Yes. Okay. Grounds? Overruled. Possibly. Yes. Interjection duly noted.

;^)

No. That will never do. I’m afraid the disagreement will have to continue. Nice try though.

Okay Pach, apparently we’ve been given one of two choices by our esteemed colleague… we either get Dylan a voice coach who will make him sound like Burt Bacharach, or else we have to fire up the damned spitwads again. And my straw got all bent up before, I’ve got drymouth from this damned allergy medicine, and… well, I don’ WANNA do no more spitwads today. Then again, hearing Bob croon like a slick veteran lounge singer would just give me the willies, wouldn’t it you?

Yo Ed… can we just drink instead? Please maybe?

Oh and further, I don’t think you’ll be getting the job as FDL historian any time soon:

I recall this site growing its wings primarily on the basis of reporting on Fitzgerald’s investigation and providing some very good legal analysis to that end. I think it’s a wee bit disingenuous to now act like Fitzgerald’s investigation was never the main focus around here and that it was always all about grassroots politicking.

This site was around for months before I ever started covering Plame. During that time I wrote many, many posts urging people to grassroots action — I was always quite careful to tag “action” items at the end of posts because I thought it was important to steer people toward positive action. The site was up for nearly a year before Christy ever joined and started providing “some very good legal analysis.”

I think it’s a wee bit disingenous to now act like you’re talking out of some kind of informed knowledge when clearly you’re just making shit up. I know you’re a loyal reader and I value your participation but you’re out of line here.

Uh…Clem 277 – I’m getting a snarkasm reading on Ed’s Dylan comment

Speculation based on partial information. Frustration, anger, accusations, mis-stated evidence, and imprecise logic. Wishful thinking and beliefs more important than reason. Name-calling? This is the new Progressive world? Yes, wild speculation and nastiness on blogs AND comments do reflect on blogs credibility in general.

Let’s get back to the issue – what crime? Fitz has already written that Libby wont’ be charged for “outing” Plame since he didn’t know her covert status (if so). Seems the same for Rove, if the attorney statement is correct.

What does that leave left? A conspiracy charge to cover-up a non-crime by Cheney? It that a rational speculation? The revenge motive doesn’t work either. Cheney, Rove and Libby were directing attention to “who sent Wilson?” (Libby confirmed that she worked at the CIA but it was Cooper, not Libby, who brought her up), Plame’s CIA status was relevant to a nepotism charge, and that Plame working at the CIA was the factual link due to her “reccomendation”. REVENGE CAN ONLY BE IMPLED IF THEY KNEW OF HER COVERT STATUS. So what crime has Rove possibly “flipped” on? Trying to avoid political embarassment. Is that all there is? Pinning your HOPES on Fitz is a lot different than discerning the facts.

The strangest part is really Fitz’s spokesman refusing to confirm that the investigation is on-going, when that has been the standard line up to now. Speculate that!

Uh%u2026Clem 108 %u2014 if there’s been any irresponsibility here I think it’s lumping us in with Jason Leopold. I think you owe us an apology for that, and if there’s some place you think we’ve been out of line I think you also owe us a link.

Jane, I’m not going to fire up the boilers on that old barge again, and I think most folks posting here would thank me not to.

I will just say this… erroneous assumptions were made about what I was saying in my posts, I never intended (or even made) the accusations of irresponsible journalism against this site that Pach accused me of, and he and I have since smooched and made up (and even shared a grin or two, I think.)

Ed N Sted 271 — You seem to be asserting that people should be able to show up, say anything and that if we answer in a way that is not coddling and cooing that we are stifling your freedom of expression. You say what you want, and we are going to answer directly. If you can’t handle a direct response, I invite you to go someplace else. And I really, really mean that.

Do we understand each other? Because if we don’t I’ll be happy to make it more explicit.

Uh%u2026Clem 277 – I’m getting a snarkasm reading on Ed’s Dylan comment

Me too… and I hope you’re getting the appropriate goofasm reading on my response. ;^)

Looks like it’s over.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015080.html

Uh…Clem is on our side. I’m glad he and Pach worked it out themselves! I think we all need a breather, I know I do and this is my first comment of the day. It WAS depressing news, period. I came here right after reading the headline, cuz I knew I needed to read others’ opinions.

Then I got busy. I called my Senator about net neutrality. I wrote truthout that I’d think about contributing when Leopold outed his sources. I wrote the Idiot jpod about seeking the truth instead of being a partisan hack and who was really “disgraceful.”

I think the Gandhi quote from the beginning of CTG is relevant here: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”

Sashland says:
June 13th, 2006 at 11:07 am

What nepotism charge are you referring to? The one dreamed up by the defenders-of-Libby?

BTW, the Libby case is not about “who outed Plame?” It’s about “Libby lied to the grand jury.”

know I’m way epu’d but, maybe there are others still here.

IIRC, Fitz had said Rove would not be a witness, and the natural speculation was that was because he would be a defendant.

Any way of knowing whether an amended witness list (w/Rove on it) has been filed?
*that* would be a sure indicator of flipping.

Fitz has already written that Libby wont be charged for outing Plame since he didnt know her covert status (if so).

Missed that bit. Can you point me to a link?
Seriously, I didn’t know this.

Forgive me if this has been said – skimming madly while at lunch at work – what Christy said about believing it when Fitzgerald says it. I’m finding I’m really feeling burnt because all the newspaper and (NPR this a.m.!) headlines seem to go “Fitzgerald announces he will not prosecute Rove.” And then after your heart drops in despair (Oh, no, he announced it himself! it must be true!), you read/hear – Luskin told reporters today he received a letter from Fitz stating…
Now, tell me something, is that good factual reporting? How can they possibly report “Fitzgerald announced” when they’re hearing it second-hand. My courtroom skills may be long unused, but that smackd to me of, um, hearsay, n’est-ce pas? Surely similar standards ought to be used by reporters when reproting alleged FACTS????
oK, back to work, skimming all y’all’s comments this afternoon.

Well, we’ve gone through most of the major emotions on this thread, and maybe it’s been cleansing. I don’t know. But Jeralyn just posted this, and it ain’t pretty:

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015080.html

So, no deal, just as I suspected.

What does that leave in the way of possible scenarios?

The answers to that aren’t pretty, either.

Merciless: If you had scrolled a few posts above, you would have seen that I posted that link already. I’m just sayin’!

re 289:
The NYTimes reporter (David Johnston) reported that Fitz sent a letter to Luskin. Sure would be nice if we knew whether Johnston was able to see the text of that letter. (I doubt it. Otherwise, he would have qtd it in his piece)
Anyone have connections with Johnston & willing to follow up?

Dream on…it’s over. How many months, how many dollars, how many ways to say, Every Man Has His Price? Next time I’m pulled before a Grand Jury I think I might say “Can I lie here? Karl Rove did and he walked away scot free.” Current American law has again been exposed as a straw man, a mockery. Whether or not Cheney or anyone else is later indicted, the fact is that Bush’s brain has gotten away with perjury and obstruction of justice.

So, dammit, no indictment, no deal.

Corruption has beaten justice today. Perhaps tomorrow that ledger will cover some ground towards being balanced. Perhaps not. But for today, truth and justice have been skunked.

I too am feeling a little down on the news, but I had come to believe in the last few months, as the case dragged on and on, that Fitz would not indict Rove. The only way we can get to the bottom of the pre-war intelligence fiasco is congressional hearings. Fitz is a decent prosecutor and he seems fine taking on corrupt pols and businessmen outside his chain of command, but his BOSS is Alberto Gonzales. If he took on Rove et. al. he’d be trashing his career. We need a Dem congress, period.

I have to say I find it quite distasteful when Jeralyn applauds lawyers getting off criminals, that we all KNOW to be guilty…it is her site, but It is really awful, especially applauding a KNOWN ——— like LUskin

I have to say I find it quite distasteful when Jeralyn applauds lawyers getting off criminals, that we all KNOW to be guilty…it is her site, but It is really awful, especially applauding a KNOWN ——— like LUskin

Someone in the Bush Administration was plainly the first to leak the classified facts about Plame’s covert identity. So if it’s now looking like someone besides Rove was the traitor, that just makes the list of suspects shorter by one.

It’s not clear to me why people are jumping from “Rove not planned to be indicted at this time” to “no crime was committed”. If you are following along with that leap, let go of Luskin’s belt buckle right now, please.

I’ll believe it when I hear Fitz say something about it. Again, why is Luskin being coy about it? Do you think he is ashamed? Do you think there was an indictment and it was quashed so he feels the victory is not really his? I don’t know much about lawyerin’ but I think if Luskin were attacked by a bear he would say “And with my hand clenched between his teeth, I threw him down on top of me.” I must concede that the shocking truth may be that Rove weasled, made no deal and walked on the strength of his or the weakness of the government’s case. But if that’s the case why no fanfare or talk of suffering and vindication?

See my comment 209 and 210.
The link goes to PJD’s document file at DOJ and brings up transcripts of Libby’s testimony in the case of John Doe.

Why is it referenced that way? Should testimony about Plame be at least about Jane Doe?

Can someone answer this? Or if it has been answered and I’ve missed it, I apologize.

rat bastahd 285 — “our side?” I don’t think that excuses anything. Every time there is a big disappointment — and I mean EVERY time — people show up here and take their frustrations out on us. Somehow we’ve been responsible for building their hopes up, and now that things have not played out the way they want they try to refashion history (never with any links) and take a pound of flesh. Well you know, that’s just not fair. And then when we answer directly — that this response is quite patently “bullshit” — people suddenly take the opportunity to “delurk” (like Porta Bella 261) who want to offer us the clear-eyed wisdom of their “reality” and accuse us of banning and deleting people simply because they don’t agree with us (we don’t, and for the record). People are evidently supposed to be able to say whatever they want to us or about us, but if we call bullshit others accuse us of having an “Aravosis moment” (Ed’n’Sted 271).

People need to grow up. You don’t like the news? Tough shit. That’s the real world, I’m not your mommy and it’s not our fault. This is what I’m saying this time, it’s what I said the last time and it’s what I’ll say again. You can take it to the bank.

new thread

Are you saying I’m responsible for my own orgasm?

Seriously, fair comment. Life not only isn’t fair but only beats the alternative frequently enough to trick me into sticking around for more.

If Fitz got an indictment- and it was quashed by the AG- and he doesn’t resign in protest- then he’s a piece of shit. Right?

Cookie, I’m sorry about the double-post, but it wasn’t there when I posted it (I had been reading and had not refreshed).

Also, uh…clem has always been my favorite handle; it made me want to change mine to Barney.

Great article and response from American progress…

http://www.americanprogressact…..mp;b=91705

Cheney is already a pariah to 75% of the people. I’d rather that Fritz had nailed traitor karl than go after cheney. true, cheney is set to cause untold destruction for another 2 plus years, but eye-on-the-prize is the mid-term and 2008 elections to flush the republican filth from power, and traitor karl has more influence in the election arena than cheney will ever have.
.

Well, he’d I think he should quickly explain why not…

And if it were quashed and it gets out. That is going to be a serious “ouch” moment for credibility and the rule of law.

Merciless: I forgot how fast and furious the internets can be. Sorry for the snark! (It’s one of those days all over, isn’t it?)

Jane: It sucks that some posters take their anger/disappointment out on you guys, but firedoglake’s stock in trade for many months has been the Fitz investigation, so I can understand why people would vent here. Blaming and shaming gets us nowhere, but this storm–and the accompanyint outbursts–will pass.

DOW down fifty points again today- It’s at about the same level it was when Clusterfuck took office five and a half long and lie filled years ago. Nice Goin Clusterfuck. What was that about the great economy?

If it were quashed and Fitz wants it known, he’ll resign. There would only be one thing to infer from such an action.

salon.com War Room

…

New York Sen. Chuck Schumer hopes that Fitzgerald isn’t done either. In addition to prosecuting Libby, Schumer says he hopes Fitzgerald will issue a report on what he’s learned in the Plame investigation. “It is not good enough to simply have a case for perjury,” Schumer tells the AP. “We still need to know who did the leak. We still need to make sure that anyone who did that is given the appropriate punishment.”

Among the questions that might be addressed in the wake of such a report: Why is a political advisor to the president who leaked the identity of a CIA agent for political gain still trusted with a security clearance?

Update: This post initially referred to the “letter” Luskin reportedly received from Fitzgerald. However, Luskin’s statement doesn’t identify the form in which Fitzgerald’s communication came. The New York Times says it was a letter. AP refers to a phone call. Pending more information, we’ve deleted references to a “letter.”

If Fitz wants it known that his investigation got derailed for political reasons, he’ll resign. There would only be one thing to infer from such an action.

close block quote, sorry

WHY DOES JERALYN BELIVE ANYTHING LUSKIN SAYS?! WHY DO ANY OF YOU! Haven’t we learned how these guys play??, EVERTHING is damage control and spin, all of it. If Rove was 100% off the hook I think they would be screaming EXACTLY THAT “100% exonerated”. They are not doing that ,they are mincing words. Something is wrong…

However….Rove may of well gotten off and gotten away w/ perjury and obstruction of justice but that doesn’t mean this story is over. It does not mean he didn’t roll on someone and even if he didn’t roll and is completely exonerated…until Fitzgerald says the investigation is over I don’t believe anything outright! From anywhere else, or even here.

If Ablerto Gonzales worked some voodoo all bets are off though, in that event it may well be over and by “it” I mean this experiment called the United States Of America. Godamn I cannot stand these SOB’S!!!!!! Getting Rove would’ve been nice but I want the truth what ever it is, this land of 1984 is killing me, I can not take much more of this. These people have got to GO! They are lying to some large degree yet again, I can sense it. My cut instinct tells me this is in part to stop the Kos/Vegas momentum and quash the blogs all at once as being the wacko fringe…. that’s why my cut is telling me. The MSM hasn’t gotten this story right yet and until I hear from Fitzgerald I believe little but read much.

oops! got an error message about a duplicate post-as I’ve been saying “quashed” all the live long day, I took it out an retried it. Sorry.

oops! got an error message about a duplicate post-as I’ve been saying “quashed” all the live long day, I took it out an retried it. Sorry.

Jane, I’m not here to argue or make enemies. Quite the opposite. The Roots Project is so much more important then Plamegate imo, yet I still had my hopes up. I certainly was saddened seeing Pach and Uh…Clem go at it, yet as I said earlier, they worked it out and maybe there was some good to come of it.

I went back and read his original comment at 108. It seems he was wrong about FDL’s beginnings, yet the rest of his post is not unreasonable in the least. He did not blame anyone here, but seems worried about how the Rove news may hurt the progressive blogosphere. I too am worried about that as the Right has the media and the expertise in winning the smear battles.

I want to see the Admin and GOP in upheaval over internal strife, NOT US. I am certainly not advocating anyone taking out their frustrations on the owners of this site, but I believe Pach also understands that the comments section is a way for people to express their disappointment, and it can be healing/recuperative to do so. I saw comments a lot more inflammatory than Uh…Clems. If a comment helps US move forward look at it as a public service. :) I mean that in all sincerity.

Sunny,
FWIW, Leopold will be on Big Eddie Schultz’s show today at 3:30 Eastern-at least the tap dancing should be interesting

Sunny-

I agree and I don’t think the judge would issue a contempt citation for him talking about it either. It would be a clear abuse of authority if Gonzales did that. Not saying it wouldn’t be legal but I don’t think that would be much of a defense in the eyes of the people or the press. Too much to hope for I’m afraid. Could be it’s justice denied today. Lots of loose ends need tying up here though.

How’s this for irony…

For many months, I never read the comments on this site, because I figured what Atrios got was sort of typical, and I didn’t get much from that.

Then one day, “ReddHedd” wrote this:

Jane and I often say that we are really blessed with the best commenters on the web. It truly amazes me how often that gets proved to us — and this particular comment thread really proves that point.

From Pachacutec:
…

That’s the day I started reading the comments. I went from a fan to something much more. The regulars that post comments here are outstanding, thoughtful, and generally entertaining.

And now today, a stressful day for all of us, I learn that Pachacutec seems to think that what we, the commenters, bring to the site is not of great value.

Ironic.

I hope tempers cool soon — I like the “one day” idea that Pachacutec is advocating for getting through this particular singularity, and hope that it means we will not start any serious internecine flame wars. For the good of this site, and for all the things it makes possible.

Dadhusker-

Thanks, I’ll check it out. Went over to TO earlier and the commenters are going berserk. Makes the kerfuffle here look like afternoon tea.

I think Fitzy has already said that he will NOT write a report- that seems to be a dead end.

“DOW down fifty points again today- It’s at about the same level it was when Clusterfuck took office five and a half long and lie filled years ago. Nice Goin Clusterfuck. What was that about the great economy?”

The DOW just broke through strong support at 10,750. The next strong support level is 10,450ish. Nice, eh? Grrr

frayed nerves at the lake….

back to work

I hope Fitz feels a little responsibility toward the millions of people who were counting on him, and do something to end the speculation.

Clusterfuck is fighting back. He went to Iraq- have to give him credit- I thought he was too chickenshit to do it. By going (even for only a few hours, he communicates that things are safe enough there for business as usual. The stupid staff meeting in Iraq wasn’t a bad move either- showing that he’s taking the problem seriously. Don’t know if he influenced the Rover news- but that’s more good news from his point of view- and the killing of the Al Queda leader in Iraq is icing on the cake.

Dems can’t expect that this malicious fucker won’t fight back- he will- and this is perhaps the ONLY thing he does well- promote himself.

What’s at issue seems to be “How big a factor will Iraq be in the upcoming elections?” It’s something dems don’t really have a lot of control over- but Clusterfuck has the bully pulpit- and he’s using it.

I have to begrudgingly hand it to Clusterfuck and the Goopers- they’re playing their hand well during the last week.

If I were independently wealthy I think I’d expat myself to the UK for a while. If I’m gonna drink lots of beer might as well have the good stuff.

Jane or Christy – if either of you is around, wanted to let you know I have to log off – have a conference call I have to be present for.

Fitzy said at the time of the Libby indictment that he had a few loose ends to tie up- but that he didn’t want to raise expectations that something dramatic would happen. Perhaps we should have taken him at his word.

everyone wants some sort of resolution to this affair. it is endlessly frustrating to be in the dark for so long and we are still in the dark even today… don’t get things flipped, we are still waiting for solid info and getting too excited over things we have no control over or knowledge of is bad for our chi…

Christy, how many Sealed-vs-Sealed indictments are filed under this one case? It could be that Rove ratted out WHIG and Fitz is charging “conspiracy”.

Lobster 322 — I learn that Pachacutec seems to think that what we, the commenters, bring to the site is not of great value.

Pach gives more than anyone in the blogsphere when it comes to building netroots and he values and respects the commenters absolutely. That comment is slanderous, mean, petty, childish and completely fucked up. If that’s the level you want to carry the discourse out on, I’ll be the first to say, you’re not bringing ANYTHING of value here.

rwcole-

they’ve been saving up for just such a oportune time- let out all the big guns at once, the mighty wurlitzer in action. Not much can drown it out.

rwcole-

they’ve been saving up for just such a oportune time- let out all the big guns at once, the mighty wurlitzer in action. Not much can drown it out.

Redd- A question if you’re around. If Fitzy continues his investigation- does that serve to block a civil suit by the Wilsons? Would they be at a disadvantage if they sued while Fitz was still doing something? Seems like they are the most likely source of further info on what went down. Could Fitzy effectively block em for the duration of the Clusterfuck presidency by continuing a fruitless investigation?

rwcole 328 -

Expect the Goopers and their wingnut press allies to now be ALL OVER the progressive blogosphere and its supporters in a full-court press, spewing about how naive and now discredited we are, that we are ALL Leopold.

It’s a fight to the death. And far from over.

bravo Pach #112…’bout time that was said, nobody wins anything sobbing into their pillow…we must win this coming election in EVERY way!
With Cheney’s astrological chart for the coming year, he is not finished being center stage taking more hits for something he is doing or has done…And how else could Rove get out of his lies? He FLIPPED!!! Bush chart has a brief few weeks of luck then back to bad, bad, bad…who cares about Rove?! – it’s about winning Dem butts in Senate chairs this November…

OK, why do my comments keep duplicating? I swear I’m not doing it!

PJ Evans 286: “What nepotism charge are you referring to? The one dreamed up by the defenders-of-Libby?

BTW, the Libby case is not about “who outed Plame?” It’s about “Libby lied to the grand jury.””

If the case is not about “Who outed Plame?” then there is no bigger case. Is this all about Libby’s memory of who said what to whom and when. No big scandal there. No Guilty Rove there. No Cheney indictment there. He didn’t exactly remember becuase the CIA connection was his focus, not the wife’s status. Can Fitz possibly prove otherwise when he admits that Libby didn’t know the status?

The nepotism charge is directly relevant: why was Plame a subject of the conversation? Was it: “We’re gonna get that Wilson guy by outing his wife the covert agent”? or was it “We found proof that Wilson wa sent by the incompetent CIA non-proliferation section (see Khan, Korea and Iran failures) and hand-chosen by his wife, then sent without standard confidentiality agreement”?

Why lie if there was no crime/ What was the crime? I think Fitz is in a corner here on Libby and Rove. Seems like the only thing left is to look for another leaker who committed a crime only if they know Plame’s status? Help me out here: where is there anything that points to higher-ups?

TritoneSubstitution 288: The link to the information on Libby’s non-indictment on the “outing”charge might have come from an earlier article on this site that quoted the subpeona filings. Might have been a side link. Can’t check right now. But it was from a direct quote from a court doucment is my recollection. Although I have not touched a notarized copy of the filings, my confidence level is high. Other scan hammer me if I am wrong.

Thanks for not banning me simply becuase I question the underlying facts and analysis / speculation. I’m a “Let the chips fall…” type of guy, but I won’t accept being spun or mislead either. Just my Big Reg Flag alert when people drift into “I BELIEVE” rather that “the evidence i have seen indicates…”

Seek out the rational alternative viewpoints and information if you truly care to test your own projections… what you don’t know might make you look foolish otherwise.

Let us not be downhearted. A Rove indictment would have been grand and just but the winds of change are blowing. I live in Indianapolis but I will be bracing everyone I know about the upcoming election, get them thinking and talking, well, talking anyhow. Things are bad so maybe if we engage them, people who support the people in power will be discouraged and people who don’t will be motivated to act for change. Constant reminders of current events should help increase the inertia. Let’s be the ones in motion.

Sashland- My recollection was that Fitz said he couldn’t address the outing charge because of the “sand in the eyes”. I didn’t think that precluded later action. I’ll keep a look out and do some poking around. I think we all appreciate respectful dissent here. For my part, I welcome it and you.

Rove is now proven to be the DIRTY RAT FINK, we all knew he was. I will wait for an announcement from Fritz before I believe a proven habitual liar like Rove says.

I have not seen anyone blame FDL because things didn’t turn out the way we wanted.

I’m blaming the system as it is currently configured.

No regular readers who are also supporters of FDL would be so stupid as to think this is somehow the sites fault. What I see happening is, some commenters are trying to put a happy face on things, and others are cautioning against that.

Now cautious commenters are being called horrible names. I don’t get it.

Bobby G.

O hell- It’s a LONG way from over.

We are closing in on half time- the goopers are behind- but they just managed to pour in back to back threes. We’ll go into half time with the lead and re-group.

You have to give em credit though for a pretty good performance in the last week after doin less than nothing for half a year.

I didn’t see anyone blaming FDL for the Rove thing. If someone did- I missed it. I blame myself for indulging in too much wishful thinking–but what the hell- I’ve been wrong before.

Most of us thought an indictment was coming- and we were just plain WRONG. No harm in that.

If Rove were here- I’d shake his hand and say–”That was well done”. Then I’d figure out how to skunk his ass in the second half. No more points Karl- NONE!

rwcole -

I am always good with the hoops analogies. BTW- after YKos, I returned to the court on Sunday. Shoot-around was promising, I hit my first 5 from around the floor, 15-20 ft out, 9 of my first 12…

Felt good. Then, a game got started. I found new ways to suck. Zero for 8. Good assists, hard D (back down the floor pronto every time), even a couple of boards (unusual for Mr. No Hops), but COULD.NOT.BUY.A.SHOT.

Oh, well, Chance is Lumpy, as they say.

Today they pushed us back to Cemetery Ridge. Tomorrow is Pickett’s charge.

A lot of itchy trigger fingers on the “Submit Comment” button today.

Me, I’m gonna smell the flowers, close my eyes, and visualize Helen Thomas asking, “Now that it can’t jeopardize an ongoing investigation, when can we expect the President to fire Karl Rove?”

Stephen,

I don’t think it was wrong that Karl Rove got indicted. I believe it was quashed- yes, I said it again.

Go tell David Schuster and Chris Matthews to stop speculating. In fact, an indictment seemed inevitable to practically everyone.

Bobby G.

During my thirty years of playing- and God knows how many games- I always got worried if the ball was going in during warm ups. INEVITABLY it wouldn’t drop once the whistle blew. In warm ups- you don’t jump quite as high on the jumper- you don’t turn quite as quickly with the hook shot. Groovin a shot during warm ups just doesn’t seem to work.

(But it doesn’t keep you from pulling down twenty boards or assisting your opponent with a leather only diet.)

Jason Leopold is on Ed Schultz’s show now.

http://www.edschultzshow.com/

Leopold on with Ed Shultz now. He’s standing by his story until he hears from Fitzgerald.

Q. Are you going to out your sources?
A. In a word, no.

Jason is saying now that he will NOT out his sources even if Fitzgerald comes out and says officially that the investigation is over.

WTH are Salon and Schumer thinking?

New York Sen. Chuck Schumer hopes that Fitzgerald isn’t done either. In addition to prosecuting Libby, Schumer says he hopes Fitzgerald will issue a report on what he’s learned in the Plame investigation.

There have been repeated statements that he is not authorized to issue any report and that, coupled with secrecy of GJ proceedings, means that when he rolls up the carpet (not that he is or isn’t going to do that yet) that’s all you’re getting from his office.

Schumer knows that – he and the Dems did not push hard enough to get an Independent Prosecutor (and they might not have been able to no matter how hard they pushed) and so they don’t get the benefits of reports to Congress and broad mandates. They were sold the “let’s keep it all in-house in the Executive branch” method and that’s what we’ve got.

The prosecutor is not going to do anything he is not authorized to do, and he is not authorized to make that report. Now – there won’t be a way to get that info, bc you have everything wrapped in GJ or privilege. There may still be some positive developments on down the line, but Schumer and Salon both look like idiots for even talking about a report. IMO.

Hamsher #334:

I will agree that I have not brought much to the site. I have, however, called my senators and representative several times in response to the information and calls posted at this site. I have steered dozens of people to what you have created, and few (if any) have been disappointed. This (and TPM) are the best sites I know of for finding good information. I don’t know how you manage to do it.

I do not agree that my overall comment, which was written in response to the argument Pach and Clem were having (and which took me a while to prepare so that I could find the link) was “slanderous, mean, petty, childish and completely fucked up.” I was obviously wrong about Pach’s lack of respect for Clem, since they made up while I was reading back through the archives. But completely fucked up? I don’t think so.

In any case, this is your blog, and you’re doing a great job. I have contributed in very small ways, with occasional links and comments, and I intend to continue doing so.

Stephen obviously thinks that we are wrong to believe that there was any reason to speculate that Karl Rove might be indicted. Clearly the fact that he appeared before the Grand Jury 5 times was so that he could clarify the details of what he had for lunch on the day that he discussed Valerie Plame with Cooper. Why none of us could see what Stephen so clearly saw, that Karl Rove was never in any legal jeopardy I’ll never know. That is why as a gesture of humility and acceptance of my inferiority I issue this invitation to you Stephen. Please feel free to do a tongue stand on my perineum.

Anne:

“Rove thinks the way to go is for Republicans to run on Iraq. Great – fine! Please do. It’s been a colossal failure from the get-go, so please – remind the voters often that this is the GOP’s baby. Remind them so they’ll think about the billions of dollars spent over there, much of which has gone to greedy contractors all-too-chummy with Cheney. Remind them of the people who got rich off the war, while residents of the Gulf Coast continue to live in third-world conditions almost a year later. Remind them so we can talk about how our military infrastructure is falling down around our ears.”

rwcole:

“What’s at issue seems to be “How big a factor will Iraq be in the upcoming elections?” It’s something dems don’t really have a lot of control over- but Clusterfuck has the bully pulpit- and he’s using it.”

These are important points, important enough that I will go on a letter-writing or phone calling spree to each and every Dem about it. Last week, Zogby and other polls showed that Iraq shows up as the top issue no matter a person’s partisan leanings. The GOP is NOT running away from the issue and the Dems ARE. If that continues the GOP will hold onto BOTH houses, easily! We need to push every Dem to grab hold of this issue, explain the GOP failures, and what they would do differently. Notice the only Dems running strong campaigns are those NOT avoiding Iraq. Iraq IS the issue, and our side is losing the PR battle. Nothing new there, but we need to motivate them, somehow, someway.

I should probably post this in the newest thread…

rwcole says “If Fitz got an indictment- and it was quashed by the AG…”
June 13th, 2006 at 11:38 am

Christy -

Doesn’t the AG’s recusal from this investigation extend to all its aspects?

It seems to me that the thing to watch right now is the economy. The DOW is taking a swan dive. There are daily warnings in the press about the housing bubble. The tone has changed- it’s not IF it’s going to pop- but when- and where will it be the worst.

Time to figure out how we will weather the storm individually- but there are political reprecussions as well.

A month ago- Clusterfuck was trying to figure out how to better capitalize on the “great economy”. Don’t be surprised if the great economy sneaks up and bites him in the ass.

The signs are not that great.

Clusterfuck decided to put everything on the card- the war- the tax cuts- the mini-recession. Now it’s time to pay- the bill is due.

The fed is scrambling to apply some brakes- cause the administration’s fiscal policy is “pedal to the metal”.

This ain’t gonna work real well.

What happens if you have a two driver car- and the two drivers are doing exactly the opposite thing?

rwcole says
June 13th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
What happens if you have a two driver car- and the two drivers are doing exactly the opposite thing?

Two half cars, one sitting and one skidding down the road? One whole car, spinning as it skids out of control? Not pretty, either way. Do we have good seatbelts and are they fastened?

I guess I’m puzzled, Jane. You’ve just come from a very successful event. Raised the profile of FDL. You and Christy and Pac have worked to advance your causes and the participants here have been nothing less than ecstatic in congratulating all of you. Your CIA Leak Investigation panel was superb. You appear to have every reason to be upbeat and positive. Energized. Ready to move forward.

Yet over the past couple of days, you have seemed particularly sensitive to stuff that normally seems to cause you little grief. You have engaged in name calling that goes well beyond witty snark. You are being hostile towards people who have supported you and your calls to action. I don’t get it.

And Wonkette for heavens sake? Maybe I’m wrong but I just don’t see Wonkette as relevant to much of anything. Just what has Wonkette ever tried to accomplish? I guess I’m not seeing the whole picture on this one. How about Barbara Comstock instead?

Now clearly, it’s your blog and you’re entitled to write whatever you choose. Name call where you please. Attack whom you choose. But what are you really trying to accomplish with FDL? What does FDL mean to you?

Last, I apologize for my “Aravosis moment” comment — it clearly rubbed you the wrong way. I meant it more tongue-in-cheek; John and his audience are becoming famous for engaging in shooting matches from time to time, but I’ve learned not to take it personally. Obviously, my comment here did not come across to you that way. I’m sorry. Perhaps we can move forward?

I think getting something on Cheney is wishful thinking. Even if there is a “cooperation” I dont expect Karl Rove would offer anything on the VP during an election year.It may turn out to be a frivolous bargain for Fitz. Im not keeping my fingers crossed.

Wonderful comment from “rdandrea” on jeralyn’s “No deal for Rove” thread — did you see it?

Agreed. It’s over.

Now let’s go win ourselves an election.
It’s a better use of our time anyway.

lotus,

Yep, even if it’s not over, the best approach is to focus efforts where they can have a real impact. That’s what I meant when I said we should not be depending upon Fitzgerald to deliver us from these crooks.

It ain’t over yet. Something is amiss again. Luskin and Rove are hall of fame liars I don’t belive a word out of their mouths Show me some hard evidence! Can anyone show anything but Ruskin has said?? Somebody help me out, we are being played again. The are stating something and moving on. Where is the evidence?? Luskin’s word doesn’t count.

365 Ed n Sted — “supporting this site” does not give you license to attack the people who run it unanswered. If that’s what’s going to happen — and it did happen way out of proportion to anything reasonable — I’m going to answer that. Like I always do. I really can’t imagine where you’ve been if you think this is something new.

Ana Marie Cox? You’ve got to be fucking kidding me. She attacked Joe Wilson’s patriotism. She’s attacking the blogosphere, the people who made her. She’s extraordinarily vulnerable and she’s going to get hit, over and over again on this site. And all others who might think of doing the same are going to see her used as a human pinata and maybe think twice about doing so again. It’s how we re-write the narrative, this time about the slander launched at Joe Wilson. The time is right. It’s what we do. Over. And over. And over again. I would think that would be obvious by now, but I guess not. If it offends you, you are obviously at the wrong site, because THAT IS what we do. It’s what we’re all about. This weird expectation that we should suddenly go all touchy-feely — or even weirder, that we we’ve always been touch-feely and are growing cranky — is just bizarre and obtuse.

my bottom line? I trust Fitz to do the right thing with the “goods” that he’s got, whatever/whomever they may be. no more, no less.

I tried going the heavenly route with Karl but got the big goose egg, posted at:

Nettertainment: Unanswered Prayers

Turns out that Fitz is not Santa–and most of us feel the same way now as when we first learned that Santa was fiction.

FINALLY SOME BACKBONE FROM DEMS

Kerry spokesman rips into ‘porcine’ Rove

RAW STORY
Published: Tuesday June 13, 2006

Print This | Email This

A spokesman for Senator John Kerry (D-MA) has launched an unusually personal attack on presidential adviser Karl Rove, RAW STORY has learned.

The move comes one day after Rove called plans to exit Iraq proposed by Senator Kerry and Representative John Murtha (D-PA) “profoundly wrong” “cut and run” strategies. “They may be with you for the first few bullets,” Rove said, “but they won’t be there for the last tough battles.”

Both Kerry and Murtha are decorated service veterans.

“The closest Karl Rove ever came to combat,” said Kerry spokesman David Wade, “was these last months spent worrying his cellmates might rough him up in prison. This porcine political operative can’t cut and run from the truth any longer.”

Wade continued: “When it came to Iraq, this Administration chose to cut and run from sound intelligence and good diplomacy, cut and run from the best military advice, cut and run from their responsibility to give our troops body armor, and in November Americans will cut and run from this Republican Congress.”

not to mention the Schuster bunny

Right on Hayduke @369. Luskin’s word just isn’t enough.

This is from cnn.com

“Asked if the CIA leak investigation is still continuing, Fitzgerald’s spokesman, Randall Samborn, told The Associated Press there would be no comment.”

There is more, and all is quiet on the western front..

The “we’ve been told he doesn’t ANTICIPATE filing charges against Karl” certainly leaves a big something hanging out there. We don’t know the whole story, not even close. I’d just like to know that we will someday.

Pachacutec #263
The YearlyKos panel that had Matt Stoller, Brad Miller, Dau, et al. It was the one that originally cut off because of loss of satellite feed. I thought they said your name and I was watching to see what familiar posters looked like. If it’s you, you’re as intense as you write (which is good!).

The Kerry spokeman said it the way it SHOULD be framed…YOU KKKARL are a coward, who called Ann Richards a lesbian behind her back, who accused John McCain of being a little off (Well not wrong there)…who uses fundamental rights of fellow citizens as wedge issues so you can win a friggin campaign…YOU KARL ROVE ARE A PUTZ!!!

Just a thought that came to me while I was outside pulling weeds…

Nothing energizes the wingnuts more than… what? Courts, lawyers and (gasp) JUDICIAL ACTIVISM!

Yesterday a family court judge was shot by a sniper in the Reno courthouse. Because the poor man with the bullet in his chest was a judge, the righties over at Free Republic could hardly contain their glee. 300 posts within a few minutes, speculating over the weapon used and openly bemoaning the shooter’s failure to “get him” with one bullet.

Really, truly disgusting. Loathsome.

But my point… and I do have one… is that a Karl Rove indictment would mean nothing to the vast middle of America, which is concerned about the economy, the war, and the general sense that the country is sliding downhill. These are the issues that win elections.

Om the other hand, a Karl Rove indictment, putting their boy at the mercy of courts and judges, would hugely energize “crazy base world” and be worth millions of dollars in fundraising to the GOP.

Maybe at the end of the day, this will be one of those “be careful what you wish for” things.

Yeah, I’m not saying he won’t be indicted (that part is probally true) but is he 100% in the clear and hasn’t made some sort of deal? How did everyone just take that mental leap based on Luskin’s word? I think we are getting played once again. These people are all about framing and this is it in action once again. They are masters, I’ll give them that, that the meida and even many on the progessive blogs (not Jane or Christy) are taking Luskin at his word IS DISTURBING. He could very well be right but haven’t we learned anything in the last 5 years… the media we grew up with is 100% broken!! Show me some facts. We can’t let these guys throw out comments without backing them up. I’m sure Rove probally won’t be indicted but beyond that Luskin didn’t venture, that speak volumes.

Like Karl Rove and Luskin are going to FREELY ADMIT that he has rolled over! Give me a break, NO WAY.

Franco #379:

A little exchange reported at TPM…

http://tinyurl.com/emlhn

…for your dining and dancing pleasure. Josh Marshall’s take in the rest of the post is good, too. But I thought you’d appreciate the two-word riposte to Goldberg, even if it comes from the likes of Andrew Sullivan.

Thank you al-scooter…LMAO…That Jonah is sooooooo funny(NOT)…reputation my ass….

I wonder if Shuster will show his face on tweety today?

David Corn has an update.

http://www.davidcorn.com/

Like many of you, I am disappointed that the latest news on the Plame investigation is that (allegedly) Fitzgerald does not intend to bring charges against Rove. While there is great reluctance to accord much credibility to Luskin’s remarks, and it’s still reasonable to want to wait until something more official is released, it has nonetheless been a great big thudding return to earth after the heady optimism and energy that came out of YKos. I can’t be the only one who is feeling a little like a stubborn three-year old today; tomorrow I might be feeling more like the stubborn 53 year old I almost am. We’ll see.

I can tell you one thing, for sure: I do not want to be feeling like this the day after the 2006 mid-term elections or the 2008 presidential election. I feel guilty, though, that having signed on to my local Roots Project, I have been unable to devote the kind of time to it that the seriousness of the situation warrants. I have all the usual reasons: full-time job, husband and family, elderly mother, settling the estate of another family member, trying to stay committed to getting healthier (working out and losing weight). I make the calls, I write the letters, I send the e-mails, and donate when finances allow. I talk with people, and spread the message wherever I can. I’d like to be doing more, but can’t be all things to all people all the time – that’s just life.

I see Pach’s point that allowing ourselves to wallow for more than a day or two is an indulgence we cannot really afford. Take your sorrow and your anger and your disappointment and channel it toward attaining the goals we all want. Remember HOW you feel today, and do what you can to never have to feel this way after an election, ever again.

Waxman is requesting the Congressional committe ask Fitz to come and brief them on Rovers involvement…interesting let’s see the response.

I speculate…

Fitz may be getting close to cheney or bush and they told him that that would fire his ass and shut down the whole investigation… so he had to keep the indictment sealed on Rove and they will just go with Libby taking the hit for the whole affair… the outing and the lying about it.

Maybe Fitz was stuck between a rock and a hard place and with the unitary executive doing what the f*ck he wants he is blocked from following where the leads lead???

They may all be trying to find a way to sell this to the american people and prevent riots in the street… another saturday night massacre??

KateNC: That was me asking the question.

Re: Hayduke

Also, more proof on how fast the blog-o-sphere can react to news; even if it is just a teaspoon of it. There’s been nearly 500-700 comments and quite a few of them excellent analyses on what might be going on, even though the lights are off and we’re wearing blindfolds. Really, the only man who knows what’s going on is Fitzgerald.

Could you imagine what would happen if there was an anouncement of a draft or that calibre? The speed at which people would organize is still untested so far.

Damn, got run through the rose bush again today.

FYI – Today’s Leopold article in case you haven’t seen it. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/061206Z.shtml

Jeralyn says @12:45 p.m.:

I still think Rove incriminated Cheney and others in the VP’s office — he’s just not getting anything for it officially. That’s a big deal, because if he were, Libby’s lawyers would have to be told of the deal and could use it in cross-examination if Rove testified at trial. Now, Fitz has preserved Rove’s reputation which could make him a star witness.

Perhaps this was Fitz’s intention — to create an unimpeachable witness against Libby and others.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/015080.html

The fact is that someone released the name of Plame and exposed her as an under cover operative. That would be a crime.

Who commited the crime?

Who tried to cover up the commission of the crime?

Who is thwarting the investigation of this crime?

Qui Bono?

Shit. That was yesterday. Sorry.

Anne:

I see Pach’s point that allowing ourselves to wallow for more than a day or two is an indulgence we cannot really afford. Take your sorrow and your anger and your disappointment and channel it toward attaining the goals we all want. Remember HOW you feel today, and do what you can to never have to feel this way after an election, ever again.

Precisely.

What’s more, I have full confidence that this is what the community as a whole will do. It’s what we did in the ashes of the ‘04 persidential election, and YearlyKos, among other things, was the result.

This thread, however unsettling for many, went from a mood of depression to anger and through to the other side.

Anger is useful. Depression and despair are not. If some of that anger got focused on me, if I served a purpose in leeching it out (depression is anger turned inward), then that’s fine, as long as that energy is then available for productive action after today.

This is why I allowed (and even performed in one instance) a level of namecalling I would ordinarily not accept, especially as it was directed primarily at me.

I’m all about taking the energy and making it useful. Hold on to the anger, but direct it outward to organizing. Making it diamond hard makes it useful.

Moderator, feel free to edit above comment at 2:01.

Waxman is requesting the Congressional committe ask Fitz to come and brief them on Rovers involvement%u2026interesting let’s see the response.

Will never happen….Fitz going to Capitol Hill, that is. They can ask him all they want.

Pach – all we’re asking is that you don’t become FDL’s Armando

:~)

Lawyers . . .

Isn’t there a three year statue of limitation to file a civil suit? I just heard somewhere that brings the deadline to July of this year. The comments by Wilson’s atty sure implied like a civil proceeding is in the works. Might it be sooner rather than later?

Perhaps Mr. Fitzgerald’s reprieve of Mr. Rove late yesterday, Monday the 12th, was tied to something earlier in the day, ie, Mr. Libby’s status meeting. Perhaps something that came up then–the prosecutor’s understanding that the White House would not impair the prosecution of the case over classified information–was the final bit of evidence Mr. F. needed to confirm that Mr. Rove’s cooperation was indeed complete. In other words, perhaps Karl Rove has already completed his cooperation which may have well begun last Fall on his fourth Grand Jury appearance. Mr. Luskin could accurately claim, as he apparently did today, that there was no deal or hint of a deal, just cooperation ‘all along’, cooperation that would have had to include substantial information, probably related to the OVP operation, as well as the final delivery of the White House acquiesence to the prosecutor’s battle with the graymail threat from Libby’s team. In other words, Mr. Fitzgerald now has all he needs and so he issued the formal advisory of not anticipating seking charges. Just a thought..

Cancer @ 390.

That is what I’m getting at. I’m not saying some of our worst fears haven’t been realized today, that could very well turn out to be true. But, they can’t just continute frame the news and move on UNCHECKED. That is how we got in Iraq in the first place, everyone took mental leaps that weren’t never directly said (some were) but implied%u2026FRAMED. Part of the public conscious but w/out direct proof! It could well be at work again (maybe not but these people don’t sleep) Where is the proof that Rove isn’t still involved in the case?? Luskin himself never directly said than and yet even many progessive blogs are taking that mental leap w/out following the fuck up (again, not here). We assume the worst (w/ good reason!) but WE can’t roll over this quick, its why the right has no respect for us, we just go “F it” its over. F that, show me the proof Rove isn’t still involved and I’ll shut up.

If Rove were rolling over THIS IS WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE PEOPLE! We do not think like criminals well enough. Do we honestly think Luskin would be out there going “Karl Rove has agreed to cooperate w/ prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald” HELL NO! You have to be crazy to think that. It would go down just like today, damage control and framing and move on.

punaise: I’ll pummel you for that.

I’m thinkin’, I’m thinkin’!

…the only touchy-feeley I ever see on this site is in the comments section and frankly I wuz surprised when I heard people kissin’ goodnite…so enough with the schmaltzin’ and let’s go eradicate ‘em…we only have a few months left…

I think that the Prosecutor’s response to Waxman would be the same as his response to Conyers.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary…..102805.pdf

If they subpoena him, I’m sure he’ll show up. Maybe even without a subpoena – but what he will say will sound a lot like Gonzales when he “testified.”

While Jeralyn has some good points, if Rove walks completely – then it will have to leave the “feel” that he got by with lying to the American people through the President’s lips and through McClellan’s lips. He almost sent Cooper to jail and his prestidigiation feats with emails remain an unanswered illusion.

But there is still a lot going on and there were a lot of names other than Rove’s on the table at one point (whatever did happen to those 250 emails – Card? Gonzales? Ashcroft?)

It all looks bad now and may be bad. To me, the fact that Luskin isn’t doing the bunny hop is almost more reason to think the worst – I’d say Rove would like nothing better than for people to keep getting further and further out on the “he’ll still get his, him and his little doggie too” limb so that when he cuts if off they fall hard. Luskin’s almost inviting people to keep speculating. That makes it worse down the line if the Prosecutor does hold that presser and say: shop’s closed.

New fitz thread:http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/13/hey-bob-wheres-your-letter/

I will bring Dick Cheney to his knees.

Pach 396 — If some of that anger got focused on me, if I served a purpose in leeching it out (depression is anger turned inward), then that’s fine

That’s not okay by me, it’s not acceptable and anyone who wants to indulge in it is on notice to expect a swift kick in the ass, so don’t look shocked and wonder where all the touchy-feely went. Thou Shalt Not Beat Up On Pach. The End.

I will bring Dick Cheney to his knees.

Please, PJF. However you have to get it done, whether it’s a sealed indictment or a baseball bat.

“And then when we answer directly — that this response is quite patently “bullshit” — people suddenly take the opportunity to “delurk” (like Porta Bella 261) who want to offer us the clear-eyed wisdom of their “reality” and accuse us of banning and deleting people simply because they don’t agree with us (we don’t, and for the record). “

That’s right Jane. I, an others here was INVITED to delurk here by yourself and others in this community. Remember that?

Now you vindictively name my name, simply because I hold a position that is not rah rah, go go Fitz, when it is obvious that Rove will no9t be indicted, nor will he be prosecuted.

Since you have invited lurkers to post, isn’t it rather mean to attack them once they do post?

Sorry, but that type of attack is uncalled for. Once you start doing that, you are framing your board to comply with your meaness, and you are being mean in this case.

My opinion stands–It is fruitless to speculate, although many do so for their own reasons. I prefer NOT to join in the speculation and wait until there are some pat facts with which to form an iopinion

I am not impressed Jane with your acidic comment and my comment about being banned or shunned was a question based upon some anxiety because I perceive “lecturing” by some posters here and definate cheeleading squad.

You want ideas? Are you willing to think about it– Or do you want complete and total compliance and subservience to your ideas?

Well then, it is your site–where is it going when those who are not exactly in line voice an opinion and then are singled out as some sort of a usurper?

Just asking, and thanks for the personal attention you have given me.

I am on your side, however, you are behaving as if I were not.

Porta Bella 410 — you have obviously confused an “invitation to delurk” with an “invitation to be an asshole.” I’ll try to be more clear next time.

“Or do you want complete and total compliance and subservience to your ideas?”

You can stuff your straw man. You expressed your ideas and I answered them with mine. It’s called a conversation. If I wanted to ban you I certainly could. Am I supposed to grant you some knee-jerk deference? The only one who seems to be interested in denying anyone a voice is you, by equating the expression of my opinionn with an attempt to silence you. A totally unfounded accusation.

My opinion? You’re a thin-skinned defeatest who wants the right to criticize people but bristles when it comes back at them. But you’re entirely entitled to keep on being one.

Jeez…

I’m reminded of George Harrison’s statement to McCartney in the Let It Be movie.

I’ll post, you know, whatever you want me to post. Or I won’t post at all if you don’t want me to post, you know. Whatever it is that’ll please you, I’ll do it.

I’m sorry I ever fucking said a word about anything at all here at this point. God forbid that I’d actually TRIED to attack the site and all its grand poobahs, rather than just posting my opinion on the morning’s news and then responding rather unfavorably to accusations of “hurting the movement”.

Pach, I hope that you and I, at least, are still cool. We disagreed (and I think also misinterpreted some of what one another said) but I think you and I left it pretty well at the end there, and was glad that we did.

For what it’s worth, anyway.

Closed blockquote. Sorry.

i was watching Brazil play in the World Cup today and noticed two things..

there were the refs with their yellow and red cards..

and there was Ronaldinho going down the field with the ball

what there was NOT was Ronaldinho going down the field with the ball while threatening to hold a yellow card up if someone tried to interfere with the ball

lesson – you can wave the yellow card, Pach..in which case, you’re a ref..OR, you can kick the ball (around here that passes for engaging in a debate), in which case you can strive to be Ronalinho…but if you try to both…well then, you not only aren’t a very good ref, but you sure as heck aren’t Ronaldindo

Uh..Clem:

I grew up in New York. An argument like this was a prelude to playing stickball. I appreciate Jane’s defense, but I’m fine, and I know how to fight.

By the same token, some of the things said to me are definitely not cool to say on this site, and I was lenient because people are unusually upset today (as I said, I’m giving it 24 hours). Jane may or may not think that leniency is warranted, but that was the call I made.

I care more about defending the credibility of the site (and the momentum of the progressive movement) than worrying about any nastiness directed at me, though I guess Jane sees the two interwined and inseparable, since I’m a partner here in the site. Fine. She and I have not discussed it today, though I’ve discovered this past week we are as sympatico as our previous phone contacts suggested we might be.

Lest anyone be confused, attacks on our credibility on the site will be met with serious refutation. That will not be a long conversation. We’re not going to debate that over and over. I hope I’ve been clear.

Now, puzzled, let me clear up this other puzzle for you. I do not forfeit the right to argue an opinion simply because I have control over the site or write on the front page. If that’s a problem for you, then you have a problem with the whole blogosphere.

If I handle my responsibility badly, then people will leave the site or howl to Jane kick me out. Fine. This blog and my service to the netroots takes a lot of my time, for which I am not yet compensated (and even if I were, it would not match my professinal rates). I do it out of love for the cause and the people. You can express your opinion, and you have, and I’ve expressed mine, which also happens to be the way the blog works.

I would add, I don’t want to be a “blog personality.” Jane had to twist my arm to do a panel. Over the longer term, I expect to do less writing, not mre, because I think I’m most potentially helpful as a back-end organizer, and because I only have so much time in tandem with my business. If you see less of me, gradually, over the next few months, that will be why.

The reason I picked the fight about defeatism I picked is because it’s a fight that’s necessary for the success of our movement. I make no apology for that, ever.

Other out of bounds comments include nastiness or ad hominem attack to any member of the community and racism. Persistent thread hijacking or trollishness will be busted up too.

It’s all about protecting the community, and protecting the community as a gathering place for progressives who want to learn together and even work together to change the country. But the community is not here for people to simply vent defeatism. Neither is it a place for people to misrepresent facts. This is not the place for either of those things. We don’t rant. We act. I make all these notes for the community in general, and not directed at anyone in particular.

Now, anyone who can’t accept all those things can really, and I mean this politely, watch soccer instead. I mean, for anyone who thinks these are problems, they just won’t be very happy hanging around here.

I hope that clarifies things. We are glad you are all here. You are why we do this stuff. If we held you in contempt, we would ban you, delete your comments, ignore you or shut down comments entirely.

Engaging with you is respecting you. Meeting you at YKos was what was best about the conference for us. We did not chase media types or politicians. We spent our time with you guys, and some time with each other learning how better to work together and how best to build a movement on your behalf.

It’s great to be able to bicker: to sweat the small stuff. Y’know, to stop, smell the roses, piss-mark our territories and get literary and shit. I mean hell, that’s the freedom we are all fighting for, right?

In our spare time though, maybe we can END THE DAMN WAR? In my best Winston Wolfe, “pretty please with a cherry on top: end the fucking war.”

Pardon my blunt, boring repetition on this minor matter in recent comments; I’m just doing my small, ineffectual part to focus attention and reframe the debate.

Please ignore and carry on.

“Sealed vs. Sealed.”

Hunh?

Aha.

Fat lady hath not yet sung.

Wow. Over 400 comments on this one.

I kept up for quite awhile, but the rancorous debate finally got to me, and I just had to leave for awhile.

I know a good tough debate is healthy, and often extremely productive. But I just hope people don’t get so round-the-bend furious that they forget what common target this whole group is supposedly focussing on. Sometimes things are said that are hard to take back, or to forget.

I’m sure Pach, with his training and experience, would agree that it’s all to easy, when one gets really really angry and frustrated, to attack the “wrong” target. (Boss reams you out, so you go home & kick the dawg, yell at the kids, etc.) If people feel that kinda steam building up, I hope they’ll take a deep breath and think before they just attack blindly.

Pach mentioned earlier that people seemed especially upset today. I’m sure people are tired from the YKos, and aggravated by not seeing rove hauled up on a short leash, and maybe unnerved by having a rash of new people lurking and offering comments on the blog.

Speaking of the latter, I suppose you will have to contend with a few more trolls than usual, from time to time, especially after YKos brought so much attention to the blog. But you really seem to know how to handle those rather deftly, so they shouldn’t be a problem. It seems to me the overwhelming majority of new commentors are genuinely interested in taking part in discussions in a positive way.

With that in mind, I’d like to make a request.

I’ve noticed that several people obviously new to the blog, have tried to ask questions from time to time, about format, about what various bits of standard jargon mean, i.d. of people in some of the photos, etc. I’m pretty new myself – been lurking for several months, becoming more and more impressed with the quality of discussions here, and the reliability of the information you present, wonderful explanations of issues, etc. etc. But I am a long way from understanding just how everything works, so I’ve got questions from time to time myself.

In the past, generally some kind soul has paused in the discussion, and fairly promptly helped a questioning newcomer become used to the routine. Maybe I didn’t stay tuned closely enough to get a correct impression this week, but it seems that’s hardly happening at all the past 2 days. Discussion is whizzing along tw’ old buddies, and the considerable bunch of newcomers are largely ignored. I’m hoping that as people calm down from the supercharged weekend, they’ll return to their friendlier, more welcoming nature. Please?

yes, it’s “too”, not to.
Who cares, end of thread, end of comments.
good morning vietnam…….

Someone was saying that Fitz only had narrow/limited investigational focus/options.

This is from Fitz’s website..

Department of Justice QUI PRO DOMINA JUSTITIA SEQUITUR
Office of the Deputy Attorney General Washington, D.C. 20530
February 6, 2004
The Honorable Patrick J. Fitzgerald United States Attorney
Northern District of Illinois
219 S. Dearborn Street Chicago, Illinois 60604

Dear Patrick: At your request, I am writing to clarify that my December 30, 2003, delegation to you of “all the authority of the Attorney General with respect to the Department’s investigation into the alleged unauthorized disclosure of a CIA employee’s identity” is plenary and includes the authority to investigate and prosecute violations of any federal criminal laws related to the underlying alleged unauthorized disclosure, as well as federal crimes committed in the course of, and with intent to interfere with, your investigation, such as perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and intimidation of witnesses; to conduct appeals arising out of the matter being investigated and/or prosecuted; and to pursue administrative remedies and civil sanctions (such as civil contempt) that are within the Attorney General’s authority to impose or pursue. Further, my conferral on you of the title of “Special Counsel” in this matter should not be misunderstood to suggest that your position and authorities are defined and limited by 28 CFR Part 600. Sincerely, /s/ James B. Comey James B. Comey Acting Attorney General

So, until Fitz formally announces that it is over, Rove/Cheney and Others are still ‘persons of interest’ in an on-going criminal investigation…
:)

Google Search: Morgan Reynolds on the 911 Hoax

Say, what do you guys and gals think of that wacky site that claims to be the blog of Patrick J. Fitzgerald? One of the commentators even said it was the real thing (or, at least put on by his staff.) If not, and it probably isn’t real (there was a Rove one too) can such people really get away with things like that?

Is this for real?

So Fitzgerald has dismissed the grand jury and declared the investigation is over? If not, why not? There is a sense of relief and finality from the Rovelickers, but it seems to me that until Fitz submits a report or declares his job is done, this investigation is still underway.

Don’t forget: 1) Fitz requested and received from Italy the Niger documents. Sealed?
2) The CIA Presidnetial briefs to be reviewed in secret by Luskin and Fitz: Sealed?

No announcement by Fitzgerald on Rove, and no open public announcement by Rove. Curious?

I am going to see what John Dean is saying.