
I met only one politician at Yearly Kos, but since I had a question I really wanted to ask him it seemed worth making the effort.
Before Harry Reid’s speech he had a private meeting for a few bloggers. Matt Stoller got him to commit to supporting net neutrality, then Matt double-dog dared me to ask Reid my question.
So I asked him — if Joe Lieberman leaves the party, what will happen with regard to his Committee appointments? Reid was very careful with his words, and very specific. He said that his letter written to delegates on behalf of Lieberman had made it crystal clear that he was endorsing Joe specifically because Joe was committing to stay in the party. But, I pointed out — Lieberman has since that time given several interviews where he has refused to run out the possibility of an independent run.
I told him we weren’t unsympathetic to his situation — we weren’t the Club for Growth going after Lincoln Chafee. I might not like Ben Nelson’s politics but we mostly leave him alone for a reason, taking him down would assuredly deliver the seat to a Republican. But I said Ned is a genuinely good candidate, and Reid agreed. He said he’d met with Ned twice and liked him a lot. And as to the opposition we’ve been mounting against Joe? Reid said it to me twice, and he chose his words very carefully:
It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.
By which I took it to mean, from the context, that Lieberman’s actions have brought this on himself. I was actually a bit surprised that Reid spoke about the situation in such a forthright manner. Obviously he was a bit more clued in than Barbara Boxer about the temperature of the YK crowd with regard to Lieberman, but still — it was a lot more than I expected.
And I pass this on in the FWIW category. Ever since the convention last month, people have been furiously floating rumors that Lieberman would leave the party. Given the numbers it’s a rather obvious point of speculation and I’ve attributed most of these tales so far to just that — rumors — but I finally heard it from somebody quite knowlegable of Connecticut state politics whose judgment I trust, that Lieberman would in fact be leaving the party in the next few weeks. I have no idea if it will happen but if Reid is hearing the same thing it does provide some context for his remarks.
Meanwhile, Ned Lamont challenges Lieberman to support the winner of the August 8 primary. Party loyalty, anyone?
Related posts:
- Rachel Maddow Redux: Dangers of Keeping Lieberman in Caucus (from November 2008)
- Dodd: Reprimanding Lieberman is “Ridiculous”
- Joe Lieberman Hangs Veal Pen Out to Dry on the “Opt-Out” Sell-Out
- Lieberman Says He’ll Filibuster Health Bill; What’s Obama Going to Do?
- Lieberman-Graham Threaten to Shut Down Senate, Add Detainee Photo Suppresion Amendment to FDA Tobacco Regulation Bill





Spotlight







Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Jane! Fitz! Redd!
Fitz!
Kobe!
Katy!
Lucy!
ROOTS!
FITZ!
Does the challenge from Ned force the issue at all, or is Lieberman gonna play oblivious?
Damn, I thought I had it!
There’s another way to look at Harry Reid’s comment: he’s sending Lieberman a message that Lieberman made a personal commitment to Reid that he was remain in the party and, if Lieberman leaves, Reid will take that as a personal affront (and will undoubtedly deliver “consequences” to Lieberman — it’s delicious to speculate as to what those “consequences” might be!)
Harry!
Joey bag o’ donuts leaving the gravy train……here’s hoping Jane.
Ooooohhh that is the best news I’ve heard in months! I DO hope he leaves the party–what a huge, huge coup! And it would be right on the tails of YKos which the press could spin as more evidence of BLOG POWER . . . I love it!
P.S., also I notice that the YKos story has been covered by the MSM a lot today! (Haven’t seen any clips personally so I don’t know whether it’s good or bad, but still!)
OT, maybe people here know this already, but Markos is coming up on Countdown (MSNBC).
HARTFORD, Conn. — A new radio ad that started Monday challenges U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn., to support Democrat Ned Lamont if Lamont wins the Aug. 8 primary.
“Joe, let’s both go to the Democratic primary on Aug. 8 and let the people of Connecticut decide,” Lamont says in the ad. “I’ll pledge to back you 100 percent if you win. And for the good of the party, you’ll pledge to support me 100 percent if I’m victorious. What do you say senator? May the best Democrat win.”
“If Joe Lieberman is considering abandoning the Democratic party, the people have a right to know it,” said Tom Swan, Lamont’s campaign manager. “Ned is agreeing to abide by the process and respect the choice of the people. Will Joe?”
http://www.stamfordadvocate.co…..local-wire
The beauty of this is that Lieberman must leave the party significantly before the primary to have a chance of victory. Since he only has one day after the primary to gather the necessary signatures, he must do it in advance of the primary to get on the ballot as an independent. Otherwise, if he loses the primary to Lamont, he’s completely toast.
Tough to be in this position, eh Joe? Maybe you should have thought of that before you went on TV for years carrying Bush’s water.
Congressman Bernie Sanders ran as a Socialist but in Congress he votes with the Democrats.
Big deal: Joe runs as an Independent without Democratic Party support. Assume he wins: who will he vote for for Senate Leadership which assigns committees, etc.? Will his voting record track the GOP caucus or the Democratic caucus?
He can probably get those votes pretty fast traveling on a gurney…..Heard they are pretty good for emergencies.
Gosh, what will The New Republic say?
OT-Just saw Markos on Countdown. He was great.
Wolcott has a post on The Thing from Addison and Steele:
http://jameswolcott.com/archiv…..ds_and.php
Of course, we all know that Lieberman left the party some time ago. We’ve just been waiting for him to send his forwarding address.
Lieberman is one of those “Mistakes I Made on the Campaign Trail” that Al Gore will someday have to ‘fess up to. He helped hoist this particular turd onto the national stage, and hopefully at some time he might offer public regrets for it if, indeed, Joementum leaves the Democratic Party.
It was because of Joe that I almost didn’t vote for Gore in 2000. Joe seriously dissed atheists with his “you can’t be a moral person if you don’t believe in god” crap. That was an extremely offensive–ah, hell, let’s just say “shitty”–an extremely shitty thing to say. And I never heard Al Gore correct it.
Joe, you’re a putz. You may be a religious putz, but your support for this awful, terrible war makes you the morally bankrupt one. Not me. And any god who would take your side in this little Iraqi adventure isn’t someone I’d want to spend 5 minutes worshipping.
I hope Joe Lieberman does bolt the Dems and joins up with the GOP, just in time for that party’s self-destruction. It’s all he deserves.
I too hope he bails. At least we don’t have to see him on Situation room et all “representing Democrats” all the while carrying Bushco nonesense to the people.
Maybe the rumor is out and about because people know he is alredy getting signatures.
Lamont: way to smoke out the real Joe Liberman. This aught to get people thinking no matter what. If he won’t commit…well we must vote for Lamont!
GO Lamont! Go firedogs! Go Markos! Bringing it to the Right wing. Every Day!
Rob # 10 – Thanks so much – just came in the door and didn’t know. Where’s Keith tonight? Don’t know the new guy sitting in for him.
Kos is great on TV – and Keith’s sub clearly couldn’t resist his infectious grin.
I have been following the Nedrenaline coverage, but I am still not clear on this: if Lieberman runs as an independent, will that deep six Lamont’s chances? Honestly, Lierberman as pseudo-Dem or Independent is pretty much useless for any progressive political movement in the Senate, but wouldn’t it make it very hard for Ned to win?
Good to ask Reid, Jane. I am impressed that he was willing to be so open with bloggers and to take real political questions. I have always like Reid, though I differ with him strongly on reproductive politics.
Jane — well done — you da one!
Not sure how this fits into L’affaire Lieberman, but TPM has added Joe to the list of those in favor of net neutrality.
Jane – Did you know (of course, you knew)that you have a genuine, MSP headline-kind of scoop here? Sen Reid didn’t say this to wapo’s Dan Balz, LAT’s Ron Brownstein or NYT’s Ad Nag/Kate Phillips/Modo or Byron York – he shared this with you. They would kill for this kind of scoop.
I look forward to Dan Froomikin (and CT papers)to link to you tomorrow and source you for this monster of a scoop on Leiberman.
Good for you, Jane, he needed to be asked and he needed to give some kind of answer given the rumors. Lieberman has been a weathervane and self-centered rather than party-loyal for sure. I’d be pretty angry if I were Harry.
And although I understand the national media’s obsession with the relationship between this conference and the candidates/election, it’s really a shame they are all telling essentially the same story. If anyone has seen a different one, I’d love to read it.
Here’s a question. One of the things that differentiates congressional elections from national elections is the “bringing-home-the-bacon” aspect, where one of the levers incumbents use to keep their seats is all the clout they’ve accrued in Congress, allowing them to acquire all kinds of porky goodies for their constituents.
So what happens if Joe *officially* leaves the party, and Reid makes it clear not only that if Joe wins as an independent, he will have absolutely zero clout, but that if *Lamont* wins, he will get a nice committee seat or two where he can bring home more than Lieberman possibly could? This would pretty much obliterate any benefit of incumbency, which is pretty much all Joe has going for him at this point.
Wolcott can be quite amusing some days …
John in Sac, Mary, others: there’s a third NSA case in Portland Oregon brought by
Thomas Nelson who was inadvertently given documents that he contends show illegal domestic surveillance by NSA. The judge ordered at least one doc to be sealed in a special secure facility in Seattle.
To each their own:
Even if I don’t agree with his political stance, I have a lot more respect for Reid after reading your inside account. The question is substaintially difficult for a minority leader and his response seems frank, truthful and respectful. Of course Joe is gonna run for “Independence”…he knows he can’t win with his current trajectory.
And certainly you asking the double dog dare questions begs me to ask you ” Did you or Stoller have a triple-dog dare question?”…LOL
had a discussion about this in the context of Reid’s salon.com interview in late Nite last night, starting about here.
ecoast @ 24
ONLY Jane has the balls to ask him.
Most of those other news outlets have been very remiss by not giving credit to tpmmuckraker for multiple scoops so ahem…it would be a coup for Jane to get the quote and the credit. Here is hoping she does! Well deserved credit!
Hi JH,
Regarding Ana Marie Cox, Maureen Dowd, and Barbara Boxer:
I don’t think fighting any of these people is going to help the cause (people have varying ideas of what the cause is, you can find mine by clicking on my id).
You won’t make Rove’s loafers quake, win or lose. He and his will happily attribute the thing to fraticide amongst the unfriendlies.
The only way to get the Democratic party’s attention is to win. Something. Like beating Joe.
Then suddenly they might grow a spine? No, suddenly the idea of the Democratic party will have to encompass progressive ideals and opinions, once again. It is the same way the FAUX Christian right has gained the ability to punch above their weight on the Republican side.
And then (we all think), the country will be able to make better choices. So I’m glad we’re back to talking about Ned Lamont! (and Joe).
P.S.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh100204.shtml
Jane, Reid was talking to you, thus he was saying that what you [Jane] do has consequences — he was complimenting you for getting results
Thanks for doing that and sharing that Jane, MOST interesting.
I can’t seem to shake the Monty Burns voice in my head going “…ex-cellent…’
OT:
Here’s the Democracy Now! link for an interview with Thomas Nelson (re:#28)
I don’t know much about Keith’s temp replacement, Brian Unger. But he did appear as the main host on the Bushisms DVD I bought in 2004: http://www.bushism.net/
He’s one of us. :)
I think that Lieberman has done the math, looked at the trends, and he sees Lamont continuing to gain strength with the likely voters. Losing the primary is a definite possibility, and his chances look much better in a three-way race. But that means he has to start a petition effort soon, or he won’t meet the deadline to qualify as an independent.
He might hold out for a while longer, but I predict that the first poll showing Lamont tied with Lieberman among likely voters will cause Joe to jump ship. He likes his Senate seat so much that he wouldn’t give it up to run for VP.
wh’sup, zennurse?
We are getting into some good realizations of political power. Assuming Joe runs and wins as an Independent, does Reid have the clout to “punish” Joe in the Senate or does he need Joe’s independent vote badly enough? Reid as Majority Leader or Reid as Minority Leader has very different powers…independent Joe in the Senate could very well be the swing vote in a divided Senate and be courted by both sides…
It does get complex !
Once again I feel compelled to state the obvious: If Lieberman leaves the party (officially), he’d better hope that Republicans win control of the Senate. He will have thrown away whatever goodwill he had with Democrats, and would probably be the most ineffective Senator in Connecticut history if he needed to work with them for any
porkfavorable funding for his state.Eli 5:38 p.m. said,
“So what happens if Joe *officially* leaves the party, and Reid makes it clear not only that if Joe wins as an independent, he will have absolutely zero clout”
A nightmare scenario is that 49 Democrats plus Bernie Sanders get elected on our side, 49 Republicans win, and Lieberman wins. So it would be 51 votes and control of the Senate if Joe voted with the Democrats (as Bernie does), or 49 Republicans, Lieberman, and Cheney winning control of the Senate for the Republicans. In that situation, Joe might play hardball with Reid and say, I won’t vote with the Democrats unless you give me my pick of committee assignments. In that situation it would be somewhat reassuring that Harry Reid is a former boxer, but still…
Gladly’bear
Reid may have been complimenting Jane…if he had said it once. But twice seems is be underlining, italics, and bold referring to Lieberman
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the *Republicans* offered Joe some plum committee assignments, actually…
zennurse, Rayne, Steven Parrish, CPA – I left replies for you all in EPU territory.
If Lieberman runs as an Independent, a lot of his funding will dry up — but he still will be flush …
MsAnnaNOLA 31 and Jane –
If Sen Reid said this on the record. the way to push this to the MSM (and certainly CT papers and to Lamont Campaign) is to do a press release on official FDL letterhead with the quotes and links to this story. Also say that this is an exclusive and they must source you (must source, must source, as wonkette used to say).
Jane – Go mainstream with this. You have a genuine scoop of national scope. But be sure Sen Reid said this to you on record.
Some Guy @21–I was thinking almost the same thing, but here’s my version of the question:
Is it really a done deal that if Lieberman goes indie he will beat both the R and the D candidate?
I’m not sure I buy that. I think Joe would piss off beaucoup people if he left the party, and i think he’d look bad. REALLY bad. What would he do, go all Zell Miller on us and sigh about the sad turn his party has taken? That won’t fly in Connecticut.
Bobby-babe, good to be back, yes?
Haven’t sat down to figure out the camera or look at photos, the boy has been programming and I slept all day yesterday. I doubt any of my photos will be as good as yours.
I think it’s worth saying (slightly defensively) that this blog is capable of managing many things at once and has raised a pile of money for Ned since he announces his candidacy. So, um…
If Joe runs as an Independent…
I think he will have a very hard time convincing CT voters the “why” of switching parties. Because he feared losing the primary? I don’t think that will sell…at all.
He’ll need all the Joementum he can spin to make that pile of shit smell like roses.
zennurse -
Yeah. Great to face that mountain of work awaiting me at the office.
:(
Going to see my guys tonight.
http://santafeandthefatcityhorns.blogspot.com/
Be tired again at work tomorrow.
YKos was awesome. Getting to meet and hang with YOU was wonderful.
Connecticut Senator Lowell Weicker, one of the last “good” Republicans was trashed by his party and ran as an Independent for Governor and won. This example may explain why a Connecticut politician would consider a serious Independent run. By the way, the GOP dumped Weicker for Senator and supported Lieberman in 1988. Joe’s party allegiance has been shaky from the git!
In Indiana politics, an independent run is unthinkable.
OTOH, maybe Reid meant Kossites and Firepups and the Progressiverse when he said, “It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.” The consequences being that Joe runs & wins as an indie and is then free to vote with the republicans wheever he so pleases. He’s been a pretty good environmentalist, but I’m not sure of his commitment there, either.
Probably an artefact of the distillation of narrative. It’s just that I am getting ever more sensitized to ambiguities. Had to be there, I guess.
I think that if Joe leaves the party he will disappear. That old Joe-mentum was never quite as strong as it looked in principle. I bet he hangs on for the primary, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he won it. If he runs as an independent, Harry will pull all support from him, I am almost sure.
peace,
jim
It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.
Jane,
Any chance Harry meant your actions, that perhaps you/blogs might force a Lieberman/Ned event?
You of course were there, and can sense context, body language, etc. But I was wondering…it seems like there may be more than one interpretation of Ried’s statement.
Every day that Joe refuses to answer “the question” is like a gift. Every public appearance he makes is another opportunity for someone to ask him about it. The longer he waffles, the better. The public is becoming aware of the issue, and are starting to rag him about it.
Either he’s going to have to put all his chips on blue, or go Indie sometime soon. Otherwise he’ll look weak and ineffective, and Lamont will gain heavily in the polls.
BTW, Joe can’t run as a Republican, he missed the deadline; and to reemphasize this, in order to file as an Indie he needs 7,500 verifiable signatures by 4PM the day after the August 8th primary.
So if he waits until he loses the primary before making a run as an indie, he’ll have to get all those signatures within a day. And trust me, each one will be verified as valid; I think he can’t gather them while still running as a Dem.
At the very least, we can publicize it if he does and make him look unethical.
You just can’t turn down a double dog dare,such an action would have consequences.
Isn’t Connecticut all rich white Republicans anyway? Won’t they all vote for Lieberman as an Independent? If Joe loves his Senate seat, he knows how to keep it — bolt the party.
If a Senator has a choice to make which involves being on the side of the voters who put him in office, or being on the side of what is good for the country as a hole, how should a good Senator vote?
btw, Larry King is going to do a show against Ann Coulter right now…
(Cujo359, I left you a reply to your reply back in the last EPU since it was way OT here.)
Right here, this particular post by Jane, this is the VERY essence of the movement to take back the Democratic Party. We are no longer wearing the kid gloves and tippy-toeing around with fancy-schmancy la-di-da words when only the straight-up truth will do.
If we wanted prevarication, we could have been Republicans.
The people deserve better; they deserve honesty. They have the means to demand it. And they are going to simply go and get it, just as Jane did.
Brava, Jane. Thanks for showing us how it’s done, leadership by example.
connecticut has lots of poor folks, including many latinos — male latinos are anti-abortion & vote for joe — female latinos are pro choice
lina, you’ve never been to Bridgeport, have you? There’s all kinds of people in Connecticut (I don’t live there any longer, myself, so I won’t be able to vote for Ned).
Thanks *ilson,first time I’ve seen that clip.She really does look insane.
“Isn’t Connecticut all rich white Republicans anyway?”
No, just Fairfield County. LOL
Actually, Connecticut is a fairly progressive state. Not quite Massachusetts, but what is?
CTBob, you are always full of such good news!
Gotta go be a mommy and feed me some boys.
Play nice and I’ll seeya tomorrow.
love
zen
1,179 DYAS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
“So what happens if Joe ‘officially’ leaves the party…”
I would like to hear fromm someone close to the ground in Connectecutt…it is my impression that if Joe runs as either an independent or as a Republican he will lose and Lamont will win by at least a plurality with Lieberman pulling more Republican support than Democrat.
Are traditional Democrats , includin’ the elected party leadership, more afraid of the shadows than the reality here…I’m thinkin that the best thing that could happen to the Democratic Party is for old Joe to blot , run as an independant and split the Republican vote. I think Lamont has welded the Democratic Party back together in that state…Will some body close to the situation there help me out here?
You go Joe, don’t let us stop ya…you fuckin’ sanctemonious hippocrit!!
KEEP THE FAITH…THERE IS ENOUGH REAL EVIL OUT THERE, YA DON’T HAFTA WORRY ABOUT THE JOE LIEBERMANS!!
Thanks for the tip *ilson, I didn’t really want to watch Scarborough anyway.
ecoast @ 24, I was thinking the same thing. Reid very calmly and quietly shut down the senate when he wanted to force action on part 2 of the Intelligence Report (which the Repukes punted-of course) and this statement strikes me the same way. He says a lot with very few words.
If the traditional media is paying attention to this blog (and after last weekend in Vegas how can they NOT?) this will reverberate.
I guess I don’t care so much about speculating on what party Joe might offer to vote with on organizing the Senate in the new Congress. Getting him out of the Dem. party (where he regularly mouths the Repub. line of the day) seems like the right objective and may be doable.
I just don’t see Joe being first in a 3-way election, unless the Dems in CT luv him more than the party – some undoubtedly do, but how many?
I’m not SURE Reid’s message is what we are hearing. He MAY be saying that he’s worrying about getting a Dem. majority and he’s worried he’d lose Joe on organizing the Senate for a Dem. majority. That also would be a action with consequences if Joe wins a 3-way race.
I don’t think there’s any good exit strategy for Joe. I think he’s hosed. think about Ct’s options in that race. Lamont: outsider who unseated the incumbent, hates Bush etc (stop me when there’s any negative baggage for a Lamont win). Lieberman: Bush patsy, unseated by a challenger, fat cat incumbent puts self above party, etc. (stop me when there’s any upside to Lieberman bolting party). Republican nominee: Who? And more importantly, how? In such an anti-Bush state…
Who looks best out of those three?
There’s a striking resemblance between Harry Reid and Ana Marie Cox. Watch out Jane.
off topic question;
just what happened to that guarantee from truthout that rove was going to be indicted within the week?
Lieberman’s a pretty crafty guy, and I don’t think he’s anywhere near on the outs with party leadership as he is with the rank and file. An outside possibility exists that the Dems can take back the Senate in 06 or 08. Lieberman must be in line to chair some significant committees. Would he really walk away from that to side with the party that’s sinking in the polls?
Norske, the current Q-poll has Joe winning both as a Democrat and an Indie in a 3-way race, but Lamont cut his lead by a huge margin. CT Blogger on ConnecticutBLOG has a good video analysis here:
http://connecticutblog.blogspo…..-from.html
So, ya think bloggers do no original reporting?
I give you Jane’s quote from Harry Reid:
“It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.”
The impact of Ned Lamont and Jon Tester on Establishment Democrats is clear. Barbara Boxer, are you listening?
==========
Had enough?
==========
Chris: you’re assuming that Lieberman has a political ear. I don’t think he does–look at the situation he’s made for himself.
me to me: if that guarantee from Truthout was a money-back guarantee, get your cash! otherwise, that guarantee is worthless…
Norske, the current Q-poll has Joe winning both as a Democrat and an Indie in a 3-way race, but Lamont cut his lead by a huge margin.
I have a suspicion that if Lamont can get within 5% (and maybe not even that much), he’ll win based on turnout. How many energized, motivated voters is Joe going to have?
“So if he waits until he loses the primary before making a run as an indie, he’ll have to get all those signatures within a day. And trust me, each one will be verified as valid; I think he can’t gather them while still running as a Dem.”
Good evening. That above, in my opinion, is the key. This guy “Ct.Bob” thinks it is so. I appreciate his input…but are these facts? Is Lieberman PROHIBITED from gathering signatures so long as he appears as a Democrat?
I think it makes a hell of a difference in Lieberman’s appoach this Summer. What are the facts on the rules about signature collection for an independent run?
Ghostman
omg wolcott rocks my world
exhaustion, my ass.
Firepups, sorry to be OT and spam, but I note that Renee in Ohio’s DKos diary on this subject went into the ether and the topic is critically important.
Please do what you can to get this story on Charles Grapski some airtime; it’s an example of how bad things may get across this country if we don’t return to the rule of law and soon.
“What are the facts on the rules about signature collection for an independent run?”
I’m trying to find that out. This falls under state election law, not Democratic party rules, and trying to dig through the state’s laws online is an exercise in frustration.
But I’m working on it.
Joe is finally doing us all a favor and painting himself into a corner.
I think Reid’s expressing his awareness of what we have been saying the last few months about Joe’s betrayals. When Joe bails, he’s gonna get the shaft. Oh, the humanity.
To everyone who attended YKos, thank you so very much for keeping in touch with all of us who stayed behind to soak up the lake. You made us feel a part of the whole thing by imparting your excitement and little bon mots about everyone there. The panel was incredible. Let’s toast to a new beginning.
me to me, truthout has another article from “that reporter” out today, but it’s so without factual basis, I’m not even going to bother linking to it.
FYI, C-SPAN is showing on their online schedule that there will be some YearlyKos coverage starting tonight at 10:45 PM ET. They are always shuffling their schedule around, though.
Lieberman is legally free to gather signatures while running in the Democratic Primary BUT politically it looks cowardly — it looks like you know you might lose and then run against the winner of the Democratic Primary. Very ugly (but legal!) The media and Lamont would pounce all over Joe if it came out that petitions were covertly being circulated.
boehlerting Alone: so tell us, after your nasty little comment: what have you done for the progressive cause or the Democratic party?
Or are you just having a hard time calling in to Rush’s show today?
gladly at 61:
can you get those women to the polls?
“What are the facts on the rules about signature collection for an independent run?”
I have not read Connecticut’s election laws. But I think I have heard people commenting here who say that they have, and that it is not illegal for a candidate for party nomination simultaneously collecting signatures for an independent run (although I think it would be politically stupid and would set Joementum up for charges that he is duplicitous, a cheater, etc.) Does anybody know if the law says otherwise?
Just a little insider gossip on the New York NSA case. As we all know, the government’s response to these cases has been a blanket national security defense. A potent litigation tool,to be sure, but overused and overplayed, it will lead to some Judge finally calling bullshit. And once one judge does, many more will. Even Roberts understands his job is to support HIS institution, not the executive. Anyway, it seems that in the New York case (which has a number of plantiffs including the ACLU and the National Lawyer’s Guild) the Government invoked the National Secuirty “defence” and included a supporting memorandum with large portions that were blank. The governemnet then told the federal judge to make an appointment to come read the redacted portions at some secured location.
That is where our soviet states are at….
83, CtBob….ok, cool. Does the Lamont group know? They ought to know the answer.
86, wilson….well, are you sure? I just don’t know.
Ghostman
PS Zennurse — I loved seeing the pic of you. Somehow it changed my online “view” of you, like learning the proper way to pronounce “mui” improved my opinion of her as well. Thanks for allowing that to be shared.
OK, thanks, *ilson. Are you pretty sure about that?
Does anyone know who was taping the FDL Caucus? There was a video camera there. I’d really like audio of the Roots Project presentation and Q&A to share with the rest of the Roots Project membership.
Joe Lieberman still has a good dose of orgaanized labor behind him. It is a weird sort of Reagan/teamsters strategy going on, but its about all Joe has left in the primary.
Lisa #10
Me too, But he lost me during the VP debates back in 2000. It was a love fest with Cheney – CHENEY!
In a small way I’m glad Gore lost. At least this thread wouldn’t be about how to dump Lieberman from the oval office. Sheesh the mind boggles.
Heh. It’s an interesting jab Mike G. If I could get through to Rush I would try not to waste my call though I would be so tempted to scream at his pompous, prideful, arrogant, ruinous fat puss I would probably not be able to compose an intelligent question. What did I do for the progressive cause? I tried not to kid myself that I’m not impressed by power the way Jane is . Why didn’t she get the Minority Leader to tell you what his party’s position on Iraq is. People are having their insides spread out all over the highways of Iraq and Jane’s asking about Committee asignments? Have we gone completely out of our minds?
Nasty comment? You think that was a question impressive enough to get all of that self-praise Jane gives herself? I mean who in the MSM gives them that kind of self-stroke for taht flacid little question? Come on, surely we can expect better than this. Or were we just happy he came to our show?
TROLL WHO EMAILED ME A BITCHY LITTLE COMMENT AND THEN WOULDN’T ACCEPT RETURN EMAIL. HA! FUCKING PANTS PISSING LITTLE COWARD.
Rayne re: Charles Grapski…follow the link it is rather appalling. Seems some laws were broken which led to others and still others still. Totally rediculous.
Also Brad blog has info about CA-50 votes being insecure due to electronic voting machines being taken home by poll workers anywhere from 1 day to 1 week. Takes about five minutes to hack the vote. I hope Kathleen Busby sues and contests if for no other reason to put it on the record like Kerry et all did not. It is the principle.
Re: Grand Jury Indictment
Sealed vs Sealed from truthout… interesting.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/061206Z.shtml
ghostman, i’m not a lawyer but that’s what i’ve picked up here and there. Lamonts lawyers know for sure already.
In Indiana, we have a “sore-losers law” whereby if you lose a primary, you can not run for that office on some other party or as an independent.
Connecticut allows the collection of signatures while a primary run is being conducted. To do otherwise would be a pretty serious violation of the First Amendment and, even though parties could ban the practice, most would think it unthinkable and therefore, I bet, no party rule banning the practice was ever created. Meanwhile, it really is a political question and not a legal one and is best settled in the voting booth.
If you know what I mean.
Jane’s question was excellent and penetrating. Exactly the kinds of questions the traditional media never asks.
My gut tells me that there’s no law against collecting signatures while campaigning with another party, for the simple fact that the deadline is only the day after the primary. I’ll ask around and see.
But if Joe doesn’t leave the party and only files AFTER losing the primary, he’s gonna get destroyed in the local media and lose a lot of his support.
Christ, it’s exciting, but I don’t know if I can stand another four months of this!
It’s tough to say whether Lieberman would actually win or not. He’s leading in polls, but that’s as a democrat. I doubt voters have actually digested an independent Lieberman running against the Democratic choice.
That’s going to lose Lieberman a lot of support.
Plus, his support of George Bush will cost him big-time in Connecticut. He really never counted on having to defend his left flank as a sitting senator. He took the nomination for granted right up until the party convention.
But, Bush is horribly unpopular in Connecticut. Even in January 2005 Bush was polling 24%. That’s not a typo: 24%! Link: http://www.stamfordadvocate.co…..4172.story
Connecticut voters ARE independent-minded. Republican Governor Rell is currently polling a 75% approval rating and is a shoo-in for re-election.
But, Lieberman has managed to piss a lot of people off!
This will be very interesting. Lamont will certainly gain a lot of support once he gains the nomination too and Lieberman will drop.
We’ll have to see how this plays out. But, it will certainly put Connecticut’s seat seriously in play and may even result in a pick-up for the Republicans if Lieberman and Lamont divide the Democrats and independents while the Republican base comes out to vote in force. (It’s difficult to see that happening though, since Republicans really have a lot to be unhappy about right now).
I just don’t get the Joe logic of switching parties. You mean you’re pretty much going to completely lose your party’s confidence very soon and you’re such a loser that you can’t just face that fact and go get a job selling shoes but instead change your party so who exactly can vote for you? Umm, wowie, what a stratergy.
if Lieberman loses the primary, his current union support will not necessarily follow him into an independent run…
Dissent is fine. Nastiness isn’t. As ever, that is the community standard.
Are you sure that Reid wasn’t talking about the consequences of our actions in opposing Lieberman as well as Lieberman’s actions?
dont forget: there are 3 very hot Congressional races where we are running against 3 incumbent “liberal” Republicans in Connecticut.
ah, for the good old days when we could summon TRex to the white courtesy you-know-what-o-phone…
Joe Buckk — 106 — once again, no. Look upthread.
Concern troll at 97? I am amazed when people do not follow the thread of thinking — Asking Reid about Lieberman is in every real sense THE SAME THING AS ASKING ABOUT IRAQ!
Was that loud enough? And it also has the advantage of being THE SAME THING AS ASKING ABOUT WOMEN’S RIGHTS!
Get it? Lieberman is a dangerous threat to the wellbeing of troops and women, so it was easiest to ask Reid once succinct question, because Lieberman sucks on so many different levels (torture, religion, federal judiciary, etc).
blljxffxx Alone, for my part please please return to being concerned — and give money to Lamont
What Pach 105 said.
Good night, all. See you tomorrow, I hope.
Anti-war Connecticut U.S. Senate candidate Ned Lamont has gained ground on Sen. Joseph Lieberman, and now trails the incumbent 55 – 40 percent among likely Democratic primary voters, including undecided voters who are leaning towards a candidate, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.
Among all Democrats, Sen. Lieberman leads 57 – 32 percent, compared to 65 – 19 percent in a May 2 poll by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University.
All Connecticut voters approve 56 – 32 percent of the job Lieberman is doing. Democrats approve 49 – 38 percent, down from 60 – 31 percent May 2.
In possible general election matchups:
Lieberman defeats Republican challenger Alan Schlesinger 68 – 14 percent;
Lamont beats Schlesinger 37 – 20 percent, with 34 percent undecided;
Running as an independent, Lieberman gets 56 percent, to 18 percent for Lamont and 8 percent for Schlesinger.
Cugel, I think Vietnam in the sand is the key here. Joementum loves it, most everyone in Ct. (and the U.S.) has finally learned to hate it, and that should be the focus of Ned Lamont’s campaign. Over and over again.
No way will Ct. go Repub Senator..
punaise: Trex may not be around but there are fairies in the bottom of your garden! Evil-doers can be smitten…
sorry, feeling a little anxious tonight….
And *ilson, I wonder about labor post-primary. Are they republican-esque? Will Joe go anti-immigrant to keep them? It is all weirdly up in the air.
boehlerting Alone at 97:
I was delighted to hear from Harry at YKos. He’s “old school,” but he’s currently in charge of the Dems in the Senate.
I’m afraid we’re stuck with a two-party system in the U.S. for the forseeable future.
If you’ve got a workable plan for switching to proportional representation, let’s hear it. Otherwise, all you’ve got is anarchy.
Lisa 18
We’ve just been waiting for him to send his forwarding address.
tee hee
Joe leaves he is toast… Joe stays he get bet in primary…poor Holy Joe…
*ilson @ 5:56
I don’t think that Lieberman’s case is the same as Weicker’s. Weicker didn’t change, his party changed. And he continued to represent his constituents.
In Lieberman’s case, it is Lieberman that has diverged from the Democratic Party. I’m not sure that his constituents have moved with him.
There are probably many Dems in CT that support Lieberman out of habit. People who are only marginally informed and not really interested in digging deeper. You know, the average voter. If he leaves the Dem Party, people will be more likely to take a second look before just voting out of habit and because the name is familiar. Exactly the circumstances where commercials can make a big difference.
Ok….wilson, et al….I’ll go with the idea that Lieberman CAN collect signatures while still a Democrat. Therefore:
My hunch is, given that all he needs is 7500 signatures, Lieberman will QUIETLY collect such signatures over the Summer. If you think about it, 7500 signatures is a pretty low number compared to voting population of the entire state. And, I imagine Joe has at least 7500 trusted folks who will sign, and keep quiet about it.
Thus….my own conclusion is that Joe stays in for the duration, thru primary election.
Ghostman
I’m sorry, but I don’t get what the big f*cking deal is about Harry Reid’s magnificent acts of leadership in 1) shutting down the senate under Rule 21 and 2) putting together the Gang of 14. And I wasn’t the only one looking around wondering “so what?” when he brought them up in his speech. Neither one achieved its desired result. I don’t remember seeing any “phase 2 probe” in the Senate Intelligence Committe, correct me if I’m wrong. And all the Gang of 14 deal accomplished was to throw 2 winger judicial nominees under the bus, and let every other one through, including Roberts and Alito, excluding Harriette Meyers, whom the Repubs didn’t want. Great work, Harry. I want a “Go to Hell, Harry” sign.
No comment until 52/54 that wise old Harry may have meant “step carefully, articulate lefty with megaphone.” That’s not so good. We know where Harry stands, And we know he has an abacus with 100 beads. And he knows the difference between a right cross and ducking. And we’re going to win, but we _don’t_ know if it will be this cycle or the next one… For my money, if Harry’s comment was that ambiguous, it wasn’t an accident. He’s a crafty dog, he is. But we don’t have to puzzle about it. Jane, give him a call. And let us know what he says. And eat your vegetables. You’re more indispensable by the day. Mo
egregious (from the last thread) — do you still have bunnies? We have three of our own, plus one foster, and two from my brother-in-law who are staying with us while he’s moving to a new house.
Also, to add to the various descriptions from YKos, let me give a shout-out to neurophius, possibly the only firepup who’s quieter than me. :-) Or maybe it’s just Midwestern reserve.
Labor as a general rule will not go GOP unless Ned supports right-to-work-for-less or NAFTA etc
1,179 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
boehlerting Alone:
I feel for ya guy, I really do, it ain’t easy bein’ green especially if it’s with envy. Do you know who yer messin’ with there, big guy…I jest wanna remind ya, if ya fuck with the bull ya get the horns. Now jest take a pill, curl up in the pre-natal position, turn the electric blanket up ta nine…then give yerself a thrill, wiggle yer ears and tickle yer prostate!
KEEP THE FAITH AND STAY THE HELL OUTTA MY YARD!!!
My cousin lives in Milford, CT. He says that many alternative lifestyle couples/individuals have become his neighbors on the beachside in Milford. These new trendy neigbors have been buying up the little beach cape cod style cottages (2br/1ba, under 900 sq ft on stilts, $300K and up) and fixing them up. Probably a good many are democrats. Some could be log cabiners too, but let’s hope they’re not. There are fat cats like Letterman who commute to NY for work (not from Milford). Paul Newman (famous liberal)lives in CT.
*ilson 116 – garden in the midnight of evil-doers?
ayudo – no comprendo
Joe needs 7500 valid signatures so he should aim for a 50% excess at the minimum. Nedfolk will be watching like hawks for this surreptitious petitioning…
“Alberto prompts evacuation on Florida Coast”
“Alberto prompts suicides on Cuban coast”
My opinion of the Lamont camp is that they have gamed alot of scenarios.
The polls showing Joe winning a 3 way race are SO premature. Name recognition.
Lamont will fire a series of salvos showing how to improve CT’s citizens lives, along with doing what’s right for the country. All the while poking at Joe’s holes on those same topics. If I were Joe, I wouldn’t be counting Labor votes to save me, either.
Seems issue of supporting primary winner is not the only item of contention. Rumblings on the dreaded ‘debate’ word are afoot. Joe can’t go there…Lamont would not only break the egg, he’d scramble the thing and serve Joe up as one omelette. Full of cheese.
Arcturus – he and his clients are the guys with no “standing” issues. ;) What he found would have been, IIRC, all domestic as well, all without warrant, and between and atty and client.
Hackworth – I’m about 3/4 mile from the beach in the same town. I get to enjoy the beach without the huge mortgage and massive taxes! We’ve got the longest shoreline in CT, which is so nice. Plus I get to sail all summer long (when I’m not blogging!)
punaise: while Trex may not be around, there are nevertheless protective powers at work here. Oft-times you don’t see the fairies, just their good works…
*ilson, is Valley in the house?
Lamont’s people also need to hammer Lieberman with the following question:
Are you CURRENTLY gathering petitions for a run as an independent candidate for the Senate?
If you are not yet gathering petitions for an independent run, do you promise that you will be truthful with the public and make a public announcement when you begin to gather petitions for such a run?
If you cannot make this promise, why not?
The public has a right to know if you, Mr. Lieberman, are considering a run as an independent rather than throwing your support behind whoever wins the Democratic nomination?
“It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.”
As people have been speculating on what this means, let me add my take. I think Reid was actually restating Newton’s Third Law of Motion and Politics: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is sometimes referred to as what goes around comes around.
dunno about Hills or Dales or Valleys or Leas right now …
I would like to think that after Lamont wins the Democratic primary, the majority of voters in Connecticut will recognize that he is the best candidate to be their Senator, and that a Lieberman run as an independent will fall flat on its face. Let Lieberman be the Perot, holding the Republican vote down.
*ilson – got it. toiling behind the curtain.
Ann Coulter is getting soundly and roundly trashed on Larry King. Even that smug David Horowitz is disavowing her…
CtBob……this is not on topic….does the Steamboat Inn still exist up in Greenwich? Got drunk as hell there long ago…liquid pain killers. Also went out to that island on the ferry. End of non-related stuff.
Wilson….agree, and disagree! yeah, I hadn’t thought about some signatures being invalid. But I bet Lieberman’s people would only go to solid backers…..still! Yep, smart play is get MORE than the minimum. Yep.
Ghostman
I can’t believe that Barbara Boxer of all people would come out for Lieberman. I wrote her a venemous email and I encourage others to do the same.
These democrats are just too punch drunk to know which way is up any more. Rove has beaten them silly. It’s like … we’re trying to run a race and our horses have gone lame. They’re more spineless than Arlen Specter. At least he usually lets out a whiny little squeak before he cries uncle.
Any democrat who can’t see that Lieberman is as bad as Bush and even more slimy needs to be removed from Congress immediately and retired to an assisted living facility.
CT Bob -
Maybe we know each other. My family moved to Florida when I was eight, but many of my kin are still in Milford. I referred above to my favorite cousin on Morehouse. One of my childhood friends was Bobby Blake_ _ _ . That aren’t you is it?
Immanentize 131 – Pithy!
Re: 90, that is what has happened in the Mich case too.
Rayne – if the rawstory story isn’t leaving out lots of facts, that is a very disturbing story.
I know this is OT, but I have a top beef of the day and that is the Supreme Court’s ruling today allowing challenges to the “cruel and unusual” nature of lethal injection. I could go on and on about how odd this is — and how really strange the oral argument was in that case, with Scalia debating how painful something must be to really reach cruel….
But what really gets me is that this claim has been urged for years — like fifteen years in my case and the Court gave it no respect. Today, unanimously they decide that there might be something to the claim after all. Unanimously! And how many bodies are lined up behind that realization?
Nedfolk have already promised to go over Joe’s signatures with a fine-toothed comb. This is an ancient and expert political practice…
ilson, if david horowitz is abondoning ship, it must truly be sinking!
P.S. I went in search of ‘a rats leaving a sinking ship’ image, and found mites leaving a submerged bumblebee. Sounds about right!
http://www.uksafari.com/bumblebees3.htm
Mary, I know the game of the government is to maximize the secrecy and security atmospherics, but their responses just seem so damn insulting to the bench. Kind of like the military’s refusal to turn over Padilla. And what was Bush blathering about when he said he had to keep people locked up at Guantanemo until the Supreme Court decides whether they must be tried? Don’t you think at least seven justices will take ill to the suggestion that they are the reason people are being held for, well, forever. OK, Five?
OT -
The Leopold story about Sealed vrs. Sealed has a case number. Does it have an independently verifiable date?
* Where is Phase II?
* Where is the indictment/clearing of Rove?
* Why was Hayden moved in so quickly?
* Why the concession of Kappes?
* Why is Specter concerned about NSA-ATT when financial transaction collection is the gold mine?
* Has anyone figured out how all those things (tubes, Niger, drones, etc) made it to the top of the list of things to consider?
* Does anyone remember when all that crap became acknowledge crap?
* Suppose an OP was run against America where the prize was Egypt?
* Suppose that is truly incomprehensible as it sounds.
* And finally, suppose there is a cutout.
The earth is moving… as GWHB knows there is a major problem. That he would let that be known (via the Rummy replacement) should scare the shit out of people.
I’m sorry, I’m on the other side of the fence, I want Joe to run as an independent, and I don’t want lemant to endorse Joe no matter what happens
Joe is a republican, there is no question about it, and I would rather a republican in office who’s title reads republican then someone masquerading as a democrat who is clearly not…I’m just sayin
Pach!
the video at the caucus was shot by our YKOS videographer – we’ll be reviewing the tape in the next week or two … I’ll check out how we can get you a copy … and yes, we are thinking of producing our own documentary … still early stages of thinking about that but we’re considering the project.
good to be back at FDL – what a few weeks! and it continues with CNN looking for a quote today and Markos on MSNBC with a Newsweek story expected as well…
I got back late last night and had a lunch meeting today … turns out my lunch companion had watched the CIA Leak case panel on Cspan – and loved it!
Lieberman leave the Democratic Party? So what? Isn’t there something a bit more substantional to talk about? A splintering Democratic Party at this stage — four years after party members voted to invade Iraq (”use of force in Afghanistan” first) indicates the Dems, like Hillary, are only pandering to the right. This is old, OLD news.
Norske, I miss you. You’re the bomb!
siun:
Excellent. Audio would be great. We don’t need edited video. Just audio of the Roots Project discussion if we can get it before it’s too outdated!
If that’s not feasible, no worries. I was just checking, since the demand for information is high.
Thanks!
at 11:22pm tonight, CSpan2 will show a YKos event:
Forum YearlyKos Convention
Jay Rosen , New York University
Matt Bai , New York Times Magazine
*ilson,
I guess you saw a different Horowitz…the Horowitz I saw stood squarely behind Colter, calling her a “satirist” and said that she was passionately defending the nation against the left.
-GSD
siun, you are god.
If you’re ever stuck somewhere in the middle of the night in a blizzard, it would be my privilege to kill myself helping you.
hackworth – sorry, I’m Bob Adams, Milford High ‘77. Lived all around Milford over the years.
Ghostman, I don’t know about the Steamboat Inn; I’m sure Ned would know, being from Greenwich.
Regarding Lieberman, my list of questions to hammer him with the next time I see him gets longer all the time. “Are you collecting signatures yet; and if you aren’t, will you tell the public when you begin?”
Also, I ran into a small group of listless Lieberbots at the Greek Fest this weekend where I videotaped Ned. They seemed kind of out of it, like they were just going through the motions.
Their eyes, that was the creepy part. Dull, lifeless eyes, like a doll’s eyes.
Horowitz also was “shocked” that David Letterman mad the joke about Coulter taking Zarqawis’ place as the top batshit hatemonger on the planet…That was over the top for Horowitz, not Coulter calling widows a pack of money grubbing harpies…
Did I mention how much I disdain David Horowitz?
-GSD
Rachel: never forget — a slight majority of Democratic Congresscritters voted against the War on Iraq !
1,179 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
Rachel:
Wake up child, Lieberman leaving the Democratic Party is NOT weakenin’ the party but galvanizin’ it. It also sends a message loud and clear to the rest of those toothless cowards like Hillary and Kerry that the boat is sailin’ and they better learn ta swim if they don’t get up the gangplank now.
No girl, Lieberman leavin the Democratic Party IS a big deal…and portends a siesmic shift in politics if the Democrats take power in both houses.
KEEP THE FAITH AND MAKE EVERY SHOT COUNT…THERE ARE GUMNNA BE ALOTTA TARGETS!!
BOEHLERTING ALONE, YOU FOOL NO ONE.
WORKING UP THE NERVE TO ACCEPT EMAIL ANY TIME SOON?
Did I mention how much I disdain David Horowitz?
No, but it would be fun if you would! But please use language Margaret would resent.
GSD: I bet I disdain David Horowitz more than you do! He is truly odious…
immanentize 150
Scalia goes hunting with Cheney, a big proponent of the “anything short of complete organ failure isn’t torture” meme, so I hold out no hopes of a humane ruling here.
/note pristine blockquote!
“Regarding Lieberman, my list of questions to hammer him with the next time I see him gets longer all the time. “Are you collecting signatures yet; and if you aren’t, will you tell the public when you begin?”"
Oh am I chuckling. I love it when a man fights…good for you!
on worse news…don’t overlook ole rwcole….he always seems to have the polling stuff. Not TOO bright for Lamont…but there’s time.
Ghostman
and of course ur surewhen he said this he wasnt referring 2 u when spoke of consequences?
OT and a touch long, but what the hey:
It’s the liberals. It’s the ACLU. It’s Clinton. It’s Monica. It’s the “climate of permissiveness”. It’s France. It’s the liberal media. It’s Clinton’s penis. It’s Hillary. It’s Gov. Dean.
We never could have known they’d fly planes into buildings. “No actionable intelligence”. They didn’t tell us to do anything. O’Neill’s lying. Clarke’s lying. General Shinseki’s lying. The Union of Concerned Scientists is lying. Our own weapons inspector David Kay’s lying. Wilson’s lying. John Dean’s lying. Newsweek lied! CBS lied! Everyone’s lying but us. We had to lie. We never lied.
Plame outed herself. Her husband outed her. The liberals outed her. No one outed her, since everyone already knew her covert identity. Scooter, Rove, and Cheney had nothing to do with it. No comment. Lib’ral, lib’ral, lib’ral.
It’s the libs trying to pull Schiavo’s feeding tube. It doesn’t matter that DeLay pulled his own dad’s feeding tube.”Culture of life”.
It’s Janet Jackson’s boobs; it’s the Statue of Justice’s boobs.
Reading the news might cloud my judgement. It’s the “decade our government…blinded itself to our enemies”. It’s the homosexuals wanting to marry.
“Restore honor and dignity to the White House”. A decision to go to war wasn’t a decision to go to war. “No actionable intelligence”. It’s the pledge of allegiance. They’re taking God out of America. Osama didn’t tell us when, how, where, and by what means he’d attack, and he didn’t leave a forwarding address. The 9/11 panel is biased against us. Saddam = Al Qaida. Saddam = Al Qaida.
Chalabi’s an honorable man and I believe everything he says about WMDs. Chalabi’s a crook and he passed secrets to Iran. Chalabi’s the liberals’ fault because they didn’t shoot us when we started using his “intelligence”. Chalabi? I don’t know any ‘Chalabi’!
It’s just a few dead-enders. They’ll be gone when we capture Saddam. They’ll be gone when we capture Saddam’s sons. They’ll be gone when we hand over “sovereignty”. They’ll be gone when Iraq has elections. They’ll be gone when Iraq ratifies its constitution. They’ll be gone in 12 years. They’ll never be gone.
We fight them in London so we don’t have to fight them, er, uh, well, can’t get fooled again!
Bolton didn’t lie! He just knowingly gave incorrect answers under oath.
Aw, so what’s another ISLAMIC STATE in the mideast? It’s not like Bush has made it a home for terrorists or anything!
No one could have anticipated that a category 5 hurricane aimed directly at New Orleans would have destroyed it! No one could have anticipated that they might need federal assistance quickly! Of course no one’s in charge of accepting the generous aid offered by other nations — isn’t that the mayor’s responsibility? Being a judging supervisor for the Arabian Horse Association is ample experience to head FEMA! It’s the mayor’s fault! It’s the governor’s fault! It’s Howard Dean’s fault! It’s CBS’s fault! It’s Clinton’s fault! Ted Kennedy killed Mary Jo! Libtards killed Terry Schiavo! Wah! Wahhhhhhh!
Miers is the DemonRATs’ fault! It’s all these former staffers hawking their books. Money never corrupted anyone. “I’m a uniter, not a divider!” It’s the stem cells. It’s the feminazis, the intellectual elitists, and the ecoterrorists.
It’s Cthulhu. It’s the martians.
It’s anyone but Bush.
[Culled from a Yahoo message board, 6.12.06]
fwiw, Jane got a shout-out by Wolcott today concerning FDL. Tres amusant! http://jameswolcott.com/archiv…..ds_and.php
Imman 147 – I don’t follow death penalty cases so I didn’t know lethal injections specifically had been brought up, but it really surprised me.
Since you mentioned Padilla – have you seen anything on the classified info situation in his Fla case? Seems, like happens at GITMO, his lawyers have been given security clearance to see info that he cannot see. So they cannot talk to him about any of that info. You’re saying – OK, that sucks, but soooooooo, what’s your point. THe info he can’t discuss with his lawyers and they can’t discuss with him—– his own interrogation tapes.
I do like that the Mich & NY NSA Judges are supposed to put themselves on a plane to go look at the gov’s evidence.
Re: Bush -his statements to the Danish guy were bizarre. Do you think that Cheney explained it that way to Bush like you sometimes do shorthand to a child and then have them say something later that makes you regret not spending more time with them?
My final GITMO for the day – the suicides.
http://tinyurl.com/pmxxf
One of the Guantanamo detainees who committed suicide had been cleared for transfer to another country, a second allegedly was involved in an
Afghanistan prison uprising in which a CIA agent died, and a third had ties to al-Qaida. . . . None of the three who committed suicide had been formally charged. . . .
Al-Zahrani, 21, was accused of being a front-line fighter for the Taliban who facilitated weapons purchases for Taliban offensives against U.S. and coalition forces. . . .he was allegedly involved in a 2001 prison uprising in Mazar-e-Sharif, Afghanistan, that resulted in the death of CIA officer Johnny Michael Spann.
21 in 2006, so in 2001 what – 16? The 16 yo “weapons facilitator” for the Taliban.
Some days you accept none of it is really on a par with, say, children huddled in a room being shot and bombed or soldiers and civilians being blown up in the streets. But other days you think about it.
No news. No outside contacts. No books. Nothing. Years of nothingness, sitting in a cage. Waiting for the next “legal” humiliation. Bc how will America be able to recruit soldiers if they aren’t allowed to make prisoners masturbate in front of them?
Years of not only not knowing why you are being held. Not being interrogated for over a year. The same cage each day. Ten days, 50 days, 100 days, 300 hundred days, 500 days, 1000 days, 1200 days. And it goes on. From 16, to 17, to 18, to 19, to 20, to 21.
Obviously, if you were living that life in the cage, suicide could be nothing other than a calculated PR attempt.
This is great. Joe’s remaining supporters usually say something about the state needing a powerful senator, thinking that Joe’s seniority/committee positions are a boon for them. If Harry takes that draw away, I can’t see the repubs stepping up with any assurances for Joe. They *say* they like him, but wouldn’t the gop base freak at the idea of their party giving breaks to a dem reject?
Hey,Redshift. Good to hear from you. Redshift is a really nice and intelligent guy and is committed to fighting in the political trenches in his home state. Talking to him at YKos made me want to come home and get more involved in Democratic Party work, which I used to do a lot of but have let slide lately. Good luck in the primary Tuesday, Redshift. Go Rootz.
“Did I mention how much I disdain David Horowitz?
No, but it would be fun if you would! But please use language Margaret would resent.”
bwahahaha!!!!
A guest on Scarborough throughly trashed Coulter! Said she doesn’t know what it’s like to lose a loved one in a relationship and that she’s never had one herself longer than the life cycle of a fruit fly! LOL Also that one night stands don’t count as a “relationship”. hehe
*ilson 158 — Thanks, I’ll be watching it. I’ve got a post I wanted to do about that panel and would really like to see it again, Matt Bai is an asshole and he attacks Christy and Christy never got the chance to respond so I’m going to.
What’s with the % stuff? sigh.
We’ve all done it. :) Just use preview to find these. They come from copied and pasted punctuation marks like apostrophes, quotes and such.
I can’t imagine 7500 signatures (plus a 50% cushion) being gathered without anyone talking. Remember, you’re not just talking about Joe having 7500 trusted people who won’t talk, it’s having 7500 trusted people who absolutely won’t talk, even though they’re sitting the hottest political story of the month. If even one or two talk and it comes out, doing it in secret is worse than doing it openly. So I just don’t see it happening.
CT Bob,
They sound kind of like the description Capt. Quint gave in Jaws…
Captain Quint: “When he comes at ya, he doesn’t even seem to be living… ’til he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then… oh then you hear that terrible high-pitched screaming.”
*ilson, Old Whore-o-witz is one of those types, He used to be a radical fringe leftist with a tolerance for violence, now he has just flipped the script and dances to the same tune, only it is that right wing shuffle….He is still a Stalinist at heart.
-GSD
Mary @ #133
It’s as good as it gets. State secrets are still likely to trump all though . . .
Coz- I disagree with Scarborough’s guest. Said she doesn’t know what it’s like to lose a loved one in a relationship
If only they had been there the day Ann’s mirror cracked.
Yeah, Matt Bai said that cocktail weenies are fiction. But he also says he never watches TV so he’s missing 90% of the journalistic atrocities that happen every day.
Mary, someday — really — I want to discuss the wisdom of defense counsel agreeing to security clearances in th efirst place. I know Mike Tigar thought it was a huge mistake in the Mousawi case and I have come to agree with him in that instance. And now the half-lame defence counsel for Mousawi are travelling around braying about how clever they were … with only one juror between Zach and the needle.
Also, you are so right about the suicides. When eeryone here hears “front line fighter” what the government is saying is uninvolved foolish foot soldier grunt. Those spin meisters at DOD make me retch.
But I gotta sleep — g’night all.
Rachel, your blog link doesn’t work…and why don’t you suggest a topic if you don’t like what’s here…maybe at your blog.
Thanks Rob Zuber. I didn’t see it in preview, somehow…
immanentize #147
I looked up the drug cocktail used in lethal injections. Sorry to repeat what you certainly already know, this cocktail is usually made up of a short acting sedative thiopental, a paralyzing agent pancuronium, and potassium chloride. This last KCl causes death by causing a fatal arrhythmia. KCl injected into a conscious patient burns like wildfire in the veins. The cruel aspect enters if the thiopental (whose effect begins to wear off in about 5 minutes) does so before the KCl causes death. The person can be conscious and in pain but paralyzed by the pancuronium and so unable to indicate that he/she is in pain.
GSD – Yeah, I was channeling Quint when I wrote that; who doesn’t love “Jaws”? I would have elaborated, but the Lieberbots didn’t do any “terrible screamin’ and hollerin’…”
That’ll come on August 8th.
Coz,
That guy was funny. Pappantonio something or other….using the same venomous logic…”She is 44, unmarried, childless”…..”She is a sociopoath who doesn’t know what it is like to lose someone.”
He got that rancid Jack Burkman all atwitter too.
-GSD
I know I’m going to EPU’d but I wanted to HIGHLY recommend the book ‘Sweet Jesus – I Hate Bill O’Reilly’. It is roll on the floor, side-splittingly funny. I’m still teared up and giggling over here ….
Yes, Hugh, that is the problem and if you ever have the very unfortunate opportunity to be at an execution, you will know for a fact — like Paris is the capital of France — that the poor fellows burn inside and suffer — it’s in their eyes right next to the fear and anger.
Norske
“those toothless cowards like Hillary and Kerry”
I respect you and I love your battle cries. I am not prepared to comment on Hillary Clinton right now, but I take exception in John Kerry’s case. He was one of the three or four Democratic senators with the courage to endorse Russ Feingold’s censure motion.
GSD,
“That guy was funny. Pappantonio something or other%u2026.using the same venomous logic%u2026″She is 44, unmarried, childless”%u2026..”She is a sociopoath who doesn’t know what it is like to lose someone.”
I thought they said he was from Air America but I didn’t recognize the name (whatever it was). Maybe I heard it wrong!?
177, redshift…..oh, word might get out. Entirely possible. Consider this: someone ( a flunky for Lieberman, but posing as an “independent voice”) starts circulating petitions. Lieberman says his campaign has nothing to do with this ad hoc, grass roots effort. Lieberman has….plausible deniability.
Lieberman loses in August…makes a dramatic announcement that a “groundswell” of people urge him to continue the fight…and so he hands in the petitions and declares himself an independent.
Botton line….there’s various ways to game it.
Ghostman
According to this comment chez Drum, Lieberman would have to file with the Connecticut secretary of state to begin gathering signatures, although nothing prevents him from doing so while running in the Dem primary. That would presumably be a matter of public record, so if he goes for it we should know it in short order.
That is, assuming that the person posting this is correct. But he or she sounded like they’d done the research, and it certainly sounds like ballot access procedures I’m familiar with.
Hey, apparently David Core attended the Libby hearing today and it was a complete non event.
http://www.davidcorn.com/archi…..enberg.php
For Fitz; Reporters=Ebola *Snort*
CT Bob-
That’s cool. That would be freaky if you were Bobby B, but I’ll bet you might know some of my cousins. Two families of carr’s (chicks and dudes) went to Milford High and graduated cerca that year.
Horowitz was on teevee last month – CSPAN it was – “debating” Ward Churchill on the right wing effort to purge liberal college professors from Universities and replace them with Repuglican Cyborgs.
Churchill mopped the floor with him. Horowitz and his right wing horse dookey just didn’t hold up.
the CSPAN link isn’t working for me. I really would like to see the panel, and fora.tv has not sent me my registration confirmation yet, so I can’t watch it there. I’m getting pissed.
Zing! Before I catch up on comments. Thanks Jane for asking an important question that once again, all over paid reporters in the hotel apparently fail to consider. Did they even read a portion of the blogosphere they were assigned to cover? MSM may only be afraid of that messy little thing called scut work. How about next year….no cozy bunkers, aka media rooms. Perhaps another lesson learned on the media side. Reporters need printed on a designer cocktail napkin, a steno memo of questions from the left a couple of times a week. A List and a plea. Please ask these questions, oh and for a change… press for an actual answer. I may just do this if I can stuff a sock in my snark reflex long enough.
Clearly in EPU territory, but what the heck…was indulging in a guilty pleasure of watching the premiere of Season 2 of Hell’s Kitchen. Why anyone would want to cook for a living in that kind of atmosphere escapes me, but it makes my job look like a walk in the park on a really nice day.
Jane, this post really made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Something is a-brewin’ for sure, and it feels like something good. Which is great, because we could use a double helping of “good” right about now.
What I was most impressed with is that Reid gets the Lieberman problem in a way Barbara Boxer doesn’t – and probably never will. What’s funny is that I think Reid may be more philosophically aligned with Lieberman’s views – on a personal level – way more than uber-liberal Boxer is, and yet, Harry seems able to see the problem with Lieberman with great clarity.
Reid gets it. And I’m so tired of saying “I don’t get it,” that I feel a little Sally Field-ish: “He gets it – he really, really gets it.”
*ilson46201 #162
Sadly, a majority of Dems voted for the AUMF for Iraq. The overall vote was 77-23. 21 Dems voted against with Chafee and Jeffords. 27 Dems voted for it.
Sounds to me as if Reid managed to say nothing at all. He’s no rookie.
the CSPAN link isn’t working for me.
Do you have RealPlayer installed? What happens when you click on the link?
Coz,
He was listed as ‘Air America’…thought he was funny too.
And Horwowitz is just one of the biggest tools in the box. He is the one who single handedly created the “victimized college conservative” and raised that to an art.
I remember reading one blog of a college Republican lamenting how being conservative on a liberal campus made him “feel bad”…..Waaa…waaaa….waaaa….
-GSD
The thing that Joe Lieberman showed us in 2000 is that he only cares about Joe Lieberman. Kept his campaign for the senate while running for the VP. It showed that he didn’t have enough “faith” in his own ticket. That always botherd me.
Harry Reid has surprised me in a good way many times since he took over as minority leader.
GO NED!
neurophius 190
I just got a bad feeling about my previous comment. Was I correct that Kerry endorsed Feingold’s censure motion? Now I am not so sure. I should have fact-checked before making that statement.
1,179 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
bloehert Alone:
yer outta yer league here and ya take up space and breathe precious air…do me a favor and hold yer breasth until I write ya again!
KEEP THE FAITH… EVEN YOU KEN FIGURE OUT WHEN YER MAKIN’ A FOOL OF YERSELF!!
Hugh: the slight majority of Democratic Senators and Congresspeople voted against the War on Iraq. The numbers were better in the House than the Senate.
I think ol’ Joe is painted into a corner of his own making. HOW in the world can he possibly start a signature campaign as an independent candidate AND continue to run hard as a Democrat. Not saying it can’t be done…but it feels mighty strange to me – and what kind of message is he sening to what ever Dems may be supporting him? Nope. I think he has one day to obtain the signatures.
“Sounds to me as if Reid managed to say nothing at all. He’s no rookie.”
Well, sounds to me like this rwcole knows a little bit more about things than he lets on to!
I thought the Hamsher questions were fair. Reid’s answer, however, may have had more in mind as to Lieberman’s Iraq statements, rather than Lieberman’s various women’s issues things.
Ghostman
Novin – Lieberman running on both lines is what first turned me against him back in 2000. Especially considering that going into the election there was a 50-50 split in the Senate, and if Gore won, Republican governor Rowland would have been allowed to appoint a new Senator. Which, all things remaining equal, would have given the Republicans a 51-49 advantage (the reality is that they won more seats than that, but who knew for sure that would happen?)
So, I voter FOR Gore-Lieberman, and for the one time in my life, I voted for a Republican for Senate as a protest (and I don’t even remember his name).
These days, it’s popular to hate Lieberman and a lot of people who voted for him in 2000 will vote for Lamont now. Well, as far as Holy Joe goes, I’ll always be proud that I can say I voted against him before I voted against him!
I have real player. I’m playing music on it now, to check it’s working. I get an error alert “rtsp is not a registered protocol”
Ghostman 190 & phoebe 191:
I googled CT election law and party rules, but I couldn’t find anything definitive. Various requirements for certifications and such for the petitions and the signature gatherers, but it wasn’t clear if they’re done before gathering starts or turned in when it’s done. However, I didn’t read through every word, so it’s entirely possible the person at Drum could be right. (A complete version of election law appears to be online; I would hope the commenter would post a link.
I find it doubtful that any state would let an independent group gather signatures for a candidate without the candidate’s approval. This isn’t some plausible-deniability swiftboat group. Remember, the major parties write election law, and it’s unlikely to be to their advantage to have “surprise” candidates or ones who can run without admitting they’re running. There may be ways to game the situation, but they all just seem unlikely to me. Especially when you’re running against a sharp Lamont team, who would run with ideas like “He secretly planned to become an independent after the primary; how do you know he isn’t secretly planning to become a Republican after the election?”
OH PLEASE, PLEASE GO OVER TO TheLeftCoaster AND READ PESSIMIST’S POST ON MRS. P’S MOTHER AND CERVICAL CANCER. IF EVER THERE WAS A PIECE TO MOVE ALL OF US TO ACTION, THIS CERTAINLY WOULD GET MY VOTE.
Hmmm… I’ve seen that rtsp error before. I think I reinstalled RealPlayer to fix it, but I can’t be sure. The link is currently working for me. I have RealPlayer version 10.5
C-SPAN2 is airing YearlyKos coverage now.
neurophius,
According to Thomas, the cosponsors of the Feingold censure resolution S.RES.398 introduced 3/13/06 are:
Sen Boxer, Barbara [CA] – 3/16/2006
Sen Harkin, Tom [IA] – 3/15/2006
Sen Kerry, John F. [MA] – 5/11/2006
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/…..00398:@@@P
uh Jane, why are you so supportive of a very, very conservative Democrat who supports Lieberman… And completely bat-shit hostile to one of the count-on-one-hand progressive voices we have in the Senate, who told someone from the press she supports Lieberman?? You didn’t even talk with her! You make no sense. Is this part of the circular firing squad? Jeez.
“It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.”
It’s funny. That was my horoscope today. I took it to mean that I better stop pirating cable TV.
Even funnier, it was my wife’s horoscope, too, and we’re not even the same sign! And my daughter got a fortune cookie at lunch — guess what it said?
I think Harry Reid has kept all his options open to him with this clever statement. And he satisfied Jane, as well.
Pach – I’ll see what we’ve got … I suspect our intrepid videographer is as tired as I am so it may take a little time
and
Sharkbabe – if I’m stuck in a blizzard, just bring a good bottle of Jack Daniels and we’ll party!
watching a little cspan here – first I’ve seen of any of the panels … gotta catch up! but the press is still calling … and we’re already thinking about next year!
Thanks, Hugh. Glad I wasn’t wrong on that. It’s pitiful that the list is so short.
neo, the reason you’re confused is because he was against it before he was for it. And then he was so much for it he decided to co-sponsor it. Kinda twisty, as usual.
lea-p, you need to watch Markos on Meet the Press. He answers your question. We aren’t against Lieberman because he’s conservative. We are fighting him because he constantly undermines the Democratic Party. There’s a big difference between the two.
Pach – what version of RealPlayer, browser, and OS? It works for me, but I get a warning about launching an external application (RealPlayer) to handle it. I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen that before, so I’m guessing “rtsp:” links aren’t common. I’m guessing it may be a browser integration that was introduced in a newer install of RealPlayer (or it requires some browser version, though I think that’s less likely.)
I have RealPlayer 10 (free version) and a pretty recent version of Firefox, BTW.
Harry has a problem and it’s no wonder he’s a little miffed at Ol Joe. Lieberman was the veep standard bearer for the dems and now he’s indicating a possible turn. Harry’s job is to hold the dems together (like herding cats if you ask me) and its not an easy job.
Harry ’s in a pickle: If he supports Lieberman and Lieberman turns Harry looks bad; If he supports Ned and Lieberman wins he looks bad.
But double thumbs up for Jane. And double thiumbs up for Ned for forcing Liberman to declare support for the winner.
Ya just got to know Harry’s thinking long and hard about this now.
MIke Papantonio cohosts ring of fire, weekends, with RFK Jr. Very passionate trial lawyer, and pretty funny sometimes. I love people pointing out Miss Family Values 1982 is chain-smoking childless spinster. It has the proverbial added virtue of being true.
Thanks – I updated Real Player and am now getting CSPAN-2
neurophius & Hugh,
on “meet the press”, april 9, kerry said (for the first time as far as i know) he would vote for censure if it came to a vote. below is the relevant quote, and link… to my knowledge kerry has not said (yet) that he would cosponsor. feingold announced his intention to submit the censure resolution on “this week”, march 12.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12169680/page/3/
whoops spoke too soon.
I get live CSpan 2 feed but not the Plame Panel feed. Same error message.
*ilson,
You are, of course, correct about the House on the AUMF.
Republicans: yeas 215 nays 6
Democrats: yeas 81 nays 126
Independent: nay 1
Not voting 3
And yes, I know this adds up to 432.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml
Night all you beauties. You too, Margaret.
lea-p 215 — Where am I supportive of Reid? I’m interested in seeing Holy Joe kicked off his committees if he jumps the party. Period. I’m opposed to Boxer’s support of Lieberman. Period.
I’m getting a bit testy with people around here who can’t fucking read.
Late to comment, but I recently downloaded the most recent version of RealPlayer. I have an older version of FF. But, the CSpan-2 link is working fine for me. Pach- do you have the latest version of real player?
oops- Pach I just saw your earlier comment.
VG: I have th updated version, the CsPan 2 link is working but not the link to the Plame Panel buried elsewhere in the site here:
http://www.c-span.org/VideoArc…..038;Page=3
meta @ 219 – haha! it’s actually more complicated than that! he was for it (according to his office) for several days, but that was before he wasn’t sure for a few weeks, but that was before he said publically that he is for it.
but, you know, i don’t care how he got there…. at least he’s on the right side now, saying he will support. course, i’d prefer it if he’d cosponsor… ;-)
selise,
If you follow my link back at #214, it will take you to the Library of Congress Thomas site which tracks the status of Feingold’s resolution and shows Kerry is a cosponsor.
Speaking of Matt Bai:
I got stuck – and I really mean stuck – riding in a limo with Matt Bai and 4 other “journalists” to the airport on Sunday. I’m only sorry I didn’t know who he was until 2 minutes before we arrived.
When I agreed to share a limo I thought I was getting in with a bunch of thirtysomething kossacks – they told me they had been to ykos so I agreed to share the limo rather than wait for a taxi. My first question was “how did ya’ll love yearlykos?” And I knew something was wrong when they all groaned – but they didn’t tell me they were “journalists” “covering” yearlykos until much later.
These punks were so full of themselves, so self-satisfied, so arrogant, so jaded, so snobbish – I remember thinking it was a shame in people so young – and I knew they weren’t like anybody I had met at the convention. It caused me, before I knew who they were, to ask them if they were republicans – that got a huge reaction from all of them and that’s when they told me what they did for a living. I asked if they were “conservative” journalists and that’s when Bai told me his name and that he wrote for NYT magazine.
Bai was the talkative one – a complete know-it-all – very obnoxious – laughing about Mark Warner not liking something he had written about him…
The only real question I got to ask before I got out of the limo was if they, as the MSM, had felt attacked at ykos – of course, a collective “YES” – but then the young girl next to me added, with a flip of her head, “but we’re used to it by now.”
I got out of the limo and felt I had to stay around to make sure each of the children paid the driver because they all seemed to think someone else “had it covered.”
Just to be clear — Boxer got slammed for being clueless about an issue that was of great importance to a group she was going to be addressing and interacting with. She wasn’t declared an Enemy of the ‘Lake or anything. She mostly does well for progressives, and she gets praise when she does, so there’s no reason she shouldn’t get criticism when she doesn’t.
Lieberman, on the other hand, has worked long and hard to earn our enmity, and has engaged in numerous underhanded stunts (like the Alito situation) to be able to pretend that his record is more progressive than it is. So he’d have to work long and hard before any efforts to rehabilitate himself (in the unlikely case there were any) would be viewed without suspicion.
I get live CSpan 2 feed but not the Plame Panel feed. Same error message.
Hmmm, have you tried rebooting your computer after installing RealPlayer? I don’t have many other ideas.
Haven’t been posting much lately — too busy reading all the goodies from the convention and such.
but the problem with Lieberman reminds me of the book about Goldwater that FDL highlighted on book Sundays. Early in the book, it was noticed that an early practice of the ‘manipulators’ behind the neocon – conservative takeover was to get people of a conservative bent to run as democrats. Which, of course, moves all of the debate in their direction. So, no matter who wins, they have enough of an ‘in’ with the candidate to have them listen to their corporate swill.
I do not believe that Lieberman is the only one — well that is stating the obvious. Question: Can republicans ‘cross over’ in the primaries to vote for Lieberman and then switch back? Lieberman will be told by Bush that he should switch — and when the republicans hold Congress (accordingly to their wishful thinking), Joe can have a committee assignment. Alot of rewards for him if he switches AND the republicans hold.
That is a might big IF though.
yeap. . . tried the reboot thing.
Heads up to the legal beagles . . .
The Safavian trial has gone to the jury. Judging by the tittering during some of Safavian’s own testimony, I wouldn’t be surprised if the jury didn’t take too long . . .
hugh – awsome! thanks for the good news. i wonder, did i miss the announcement? (i very well could have, been feeling a bit overwelmed recently). or maybe there wasn’t an anouncement…. in any event, will have to thank my senator! (he gets called senator whenever he does something i like!)
That Matt Bai cab story belongs on the front page.
having seen the Boxer exchange with Tom Curry up close and personal – she deserves anything Jane cares to dish out … it was embarassing to see a Senator who is supposed to be “on our side” turn like that on a reporter who simply asked a very pertinent question and who was doing precisely what we wish all reporters would do…
Pach –
The problem is your browser doesn’t know which program to open the RTSP protocol with. This is common in Mozilla. Depending on your operating system, you can Google out and find the fix for it. One common one is here:
http://www.gryzor.com/rtsp.html
That applies to Linux but would also work on MAC I would say. If not it should give you a good start as to where to find the problem.
If that doesn’t work try googling “rtsp is not a registered protocol” and then the name of the browser you are using. Make sure you get the quotes in there. This is a real common problem so you should be able to find a solution pretty easy. If not email me and I will see if I can help you out.
We also need a Matt Bai nickname contest.
Question: did they load Bai’s ego in the trunk? If so, where did everyone else’s luggage fit?
Redshift,
The thing that is funny about Boxer and Lieberman is that Boxer feels she needs to overtly endorse Joe and pump up his record because he is a Democrat while Lieberman goes around stabbing the Democratic caucus in the back so often they must feel like pincushions by now.
Pach — it was a limo, lots of room for extra ego.
“That Matt Bai cab story belongs on the front page.”
Agreed, I saw the Air America steam with him. He’s an a**hole.
Redshift and Jane
Given the . . . testiness . . . with which Barbara Boxer was lashed around these parts recently, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone in Harry’s office DOES read, and read FDL at that.
From my read of Reid and his comments above, I’d say Harry came to YKos very up to date on blogs, and this one in particular. “Reid said it to me twice, and he chose his words very carefully. . .” Sounds to me as if he expected the question, or something like it. Sounds to me as if he realized he was not going to get a “wow, it’s the minority leader” softball reception.
In other words, Reid gets it. Blogs matter, and not just because of $$.
Congrats, Jane – people are listening in high places, to you and to us. Thanks for taking the double-dare!!!
Look, may I inject some political reality?
Sitting senators do not endorse primary challenges against each other, not openly.
If they do, they become vulnerabel to all kinds of retaliation in a body that requires people to work together. You may not like it. I don’t like the idea of any Dem endorsing Lieberman. But it’s a reality they face. If they break that rule, the whole caucus goes into chaos and never is able to stand together again very well. So please, get real.
Boxer does not have a problem throing Lieberman under the bus if and when he bolts. I was there for her presser and her whole tone changed when talking about Joe. She was saying what she had to say, ill informed about the women’s groups, but not talking with the same passion she did in other parts of her little press conference.
She was stupid not to know what the Lieberman race means to bloggers, and factually wrong about the CT women’s groups. Jane hit her for that. Fair game.
But can we just get a little real about how this stuff works?
stupid “matt bai” doesn’t even make any good anagrams….
Pach….how about
Bally Bai
Bai Gone
Bai Limo
Bai Bai Baby my favorite
Boxer should have simply said “I’ll be happy to support the democratic candidate the CT voters endorse.” It would have saved her a lot of grief.
and as someone who claims to be up on the blogs, I cannot begin the comprehend her attempt to dismiss Curry’s comment to her that the race mattered to the blogosphere.
Seems to me that Reid actually absorbed what was going on around him at YKos. Perhaps he even got a little bit jazzed by the excitement and the passion swirling around him. I wouldn’t doubt if he left a slightly changed politician.
I never thought Boxer would or should endorse Lamont. I just disagree with her giving anything more than a generic pro forma endorsement. As for throwing the Democratic caucus into chaos, it could use some chaos. It might wake up some of those anesthetized so and sos. As it is what chaos they do get comes mostly from the likes of Lieberman himself.
Jamie @ 9:05 pm (#244) – Thanks for the tip. Firefox and Mozilla are annoyingly opaque at times. BTW, if you have xine on your system (again, Macs or Linux, and some Unix), you can use that to handle rtsp streams, as well. You may have to add some codecs, but if you can watch a RealVideo or a newer WM9 stream with xine, it should work. I believe mplayer also handles RTSP under the same conditions.
A right wing talking point has been born. It looks like O’Reilly, Hannity and Malkin have all jumped on the Byron York-publicized remark from Markos in 2004 about how he didn’t care about the contractors in Iraq who got killed. There are a few dKos diaries about it.
I really appreciated Reid’s speech since he addressed the value of blogs and blog communities – he got it and acknowledged the potential of the technology and community activism. His was a savvy blogosphere speech and my impression was that the other pols simply saw the blogs as a way to speak *at* us. (that may be unfair but I did hear Dean’s speech for example and he did not reference the blog/info/activism dynamic.)
“it’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences”
sounds like michael corleone-speak. creepy.
are you sure he didn’t intend this to have a double meaning?
Eureka Springs, Ar,
I like Bai Bai Baby too.
Pach @ 250, I’m with you on getting real about stuff, especially throwing the caucus into chaos. But for Boxer to be so completely clueless about the NARAL/CT NARAL mess is practically unbelievable. For her to do it at a convention of bloggers who pride themselves on asking tough questions and holding folks accountable, well that’s just dumb.
Calling Joe out on his departures from the Democratic party can be done without endorsing his opponent in the primary. She could have done that, in a thousand different ways – and she ducked.
She doesn’t have to throw Joe under the bus. But she didn’t have to give him a pass either.
As the Senate Minority Leader trying to build party solidarity, I would never expect Reid to come out and say that he didn’t support Lieberman while Lieberman is still running as a Democrat. Given that, I think his comment to Jane spoke volumes. Add to that his comments to a similar question in the Salon interview yesterday:
I think he’s been about as clear as he can be on this issue.
Compare that with Boxer’s foot-in-mouth statement which I earlier compared to walking into an NAACP convention and responding to a question with her full support for a segregationist and not understanding why the issue would even come at that particular venue.
Lieberman is the embodiment of what the progressive blogosphere thinks is wrong in politics and the Democratic party today.
Well, when we want everyone to stand united against the next SCOTUS nominee, chaos is not exactly the best thing. Party unity does matter, and we need to acknowledge that.
Lieberman is the worst offender, and they’re rooting against Holy Joe. They’re not out campaigning with him. We have done our work to punish him, and hopefully we’ll finish the job. There are some things we have to do for them.
I say this all the time, and no one seems to absorb the lesson: WE ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE TO LEAD. Stop, I beg you, waiting for them to lead first. If we create the movement, we can push them forward. They won’t take risks moving forward when they don’t see clearly we have their backs. You may not like it, but that’s politics.
Americans want things handed to them. In new ex-Soviet states people get out and fucking vote. They aprticipate. Stop, I beg you, waiting for them to do our job for us.
There are multiple meanings in Reid’s response to Jane’s question. That’s why the interaction stands out so singularly — it’s a great question, and exceedingly well-answered. I can see Rape Gurney Joe reading Jane’s report (as if!) and chortling, “Harry has my back — he really told it to those bloggers!”
Whose actions?
Whose consequences?
That’s why we’re still discussing it, oh these 260 comments along….
But I do have a question about the new needing to read requirement: “I’m getting a bit testy with people around here who can’t fucking read.” Was this requirement introduced before or after the Ben Domenech controversy? *g*
“it’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences”
As one who does not trust easily I must say wholeheartedly. I trust Janes interpretation of this conversation.
Matt Bai – Boy Reporter
=>Aside from policy, the most interesting part of his second of three interviews with Kerry was the fact that the presidential contender wouldn’t drink Evian water and was wary of explaining why not, an interaction included in Bai’s article and in his NYU speech. During their idle chit chat, Bai felt that Kerry was especially guarded even in the most harmless asides. In his article he wrote, “I was left to imagine what was going through his head. If I admit that I drink bottled water, then he might say I’m out of touch with ordinary voters. But doesn’t demanding my own brand of water seem even more aristocratic? Then again, Evian is French – important to stay away from anything even remotely French.”
Jane got the statement from Reid twice. Others were there with her, like Atrios, Stoller, kos, a bunch of others. She had time to test her interpretation of the words in context, body language, tone, etc. with everyone else afterward. Everyone else had the same impression.
I think we can trust Jane’s interpretation of the communications dynamic. I just spent four days with her. She’s very intuitive and perceptive with people, razor sharp. He was not threatening Jane or bloggers, he was signalling a warning to Joe. Reid is also sharp as hell. He delivered the message he wanted to deliver.
Pach right on man. It kind of seems that the majority of democratic congresscritters respond best after a groundswell from constituents.
I had my moment with Harry also. As much as I’ve disagreed with many of his votes, he’s a damned good man and Senator.
Here’s my story:
Tonight Harry Reid took the stage. Gave a great speech and told us he was going to demand total back-up for every piece of evidence the administration uses to justify beating a war-path to Iraq. It brought the house down. But you can see that on the CSPAN broadcast.
What you won’t see is what happened as he came off the stage. I approached his exit path and ended up standing about 10 feet from him when I said, loudly enough to be sure he heard it, “Cut Holy Joe loose, Harry. He’s deadweight on our Party.”
Well, Harry is no coward. He continued on his exit path which took him right by me. Of course he was shaking hands on his way out. He shook my hand, leaned into me and said, “I heard what you said.”
I’m not wetting my pants with glee %u2013 I mean, his statement was as non-committal as you can get. But%u2026 he heard it from at least one person while he was here. And he acknowledged it. Classy. And nice.
Pach @ 263,
Waiting for them to do our job for us?
I’d say Reid’s treatment of Jane (and through her, of us) speaks volumes of what kind of job we’ve been doing. I think he prepared for YKos in ways that say “These people matter.”
He treated YKos as an event that mattered, and he would not have done that if it was just a bunch of computer geeks with no interest in politics and political action.
Pach, I wasn’t in Vegas, and neither were most of the folks from FDL. But our voices here, and the actions we take away from here, have been having an effect already.
That, IMHO, is part of why you all had such a great time. Our voices and actions ARE having an effect, and you could see some of the results of it firsthand and in the flesh.
Petrr: I’m off to bed, but one last comment:
The reference was meant to push back on the complaints we have with people like Boxer (or anyone else) who don’t take the stand we want in every instance. Or others who are far worse than Boxer, who was pretty good and who said some good things during that presser.
Jane was right to call her on her fuckup. That was leading. Our job is to build a movement. That’s how we lead.
Hope that clarifies what I may have inartfully conveyed – I’m tired!
I propose any posts on Matt Bai’s reporting be called Bai Watch.
Lieberman by the way voted yes on Roberts and pulled a Chafee on Alito voting for cloture and then against Alito in a throwaway vote. While I agree that Democratic solidarity is a good thing I have seen remarkably few indications of it, with Lieberman in particular.
Get some sleep, Pach – about a week’s worth.
But one other thing about Reid and FDL -
As Minority Leader in the Senate, Reid has been privy to more of the intelligence information than any other democratic Senator save the chair of the Intelligence committee. Given FDL’s intense focus on Plamegate and related intelligence and legal issues, as well as our sponsorship of the Plame panel, I’d say there’s a decent chance that if he had to name a half dozen blogs, we’d be on that list.
And if we weren’t on the list before YKos and the Plame panel, we damn sure are now.
(Hi, Senator!)
Pach- from the cspan site- this worked for me- I just did it- now can view archives
Solving Video Problems
If you are experiencing difficulty viewing our LIVE streaming video or archived video content (pulsing, flickering or intermittent video or audio), we suggest you do the following:
Be sure you have the most recent version of the Real Player
Note: Because C-SPAN is updating its video encoding software, you may not be able to view streaming video unless you upgrade your Real Player. To find which version you have installed, open the RealPlayer and click on Help About RealPlayer
RealPlayer 10
PC Users
1. Click on the Start menu button on the Windows’ Taskbar.
2. Go to Programs, then Real, followed by RealPlayer.
3. Once the player launches, click on Tools.
4. Select Preferences.
5. Select the Content category.
6. Under Media Types, click the Advanced button on the right.
7. Scroll down on the list of media types, to the listing: Real-Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP).
8. Click on the check box to enable the RTSP media type for your video player.
MAC Users
1. Open Internet Explorer’s web browser.
2. Go to the web browser’s Properties menu.
3. Select the Protocol Helper option.
4. Scroll down the list until finding the Real-Time Streaming Protocol (RTSP).
5. Change the application type to RealOne Player or RealPlayer, depending on which application you have downloaded.
6. Close and exit the browser and then reopen and try a video link.
Hugh-Bai watch is good :)
or
Bai Right(er)
Nice post
I appreciate the fact that Sen Reid signed on for YKOS before anyone else took us seriously – and I sure liked what I saw when he spoke.
And his decision to announce a major policy position at YKOS showed tremendous respect – and support – for the blogosphere.
lieberman may look at his current poll #’s and decide to bolt. given his recent stupidity it would not be surprising.
he may even think the party needs him more than he needs the party, and that he’ll be striking the same Independent Yankee pose his compatriots Lincoln Chaffee and Jim Jeffords have taken on.
Go ahead, Joe. You’re on the wrong end of a sea change in American politics, and you’ll meet the broadside of a Democratic Party Slam you’ve never dreamt of, nor seen in your lifetime.
You’ll be like one of those ex-celebrities in those pulp “Where Are They Now” paperbacks you pick up in the airport bookstore .. from hero to zero in sixty seconds.
Read the writing on the wall.. you’re replaceable.
siun- Can’t say it enough. Thanks for your incredible work. I bow to you.
One more thing to try with RealPlayer, Pach. Right-click on the link and do “Copy Link Location” and then start RealPlayer, and do “Open URL” in the File menu, and use Ctrl-V to paste the URL into the URL field. If your RealPlayer understands rtsp but your browser doesn’t, that should do it.
Rob Zuber,
“A right wing talking point has been born. It looks like O’Reilly, Hannity and Malkin have all jumped on the Byron York-publicized remark from Markos in 2004 about how he didn’t care about the contractors in Iraq who got killed.”
My interpretation of that is that it’s a side issue, “don’t care”, nothing to do with policy. Any contractor over there is/was there for the $$$$, you roll the dice…
And I have a business acquaintance that was kidnapped there over a year ago…
http://www.indystar.com/apps/p…..006/NEWS01
I care, big time, but he had rocks in his head for going there in the first place.
Yes, yes! All hail siun!
Pachacutec @ 9:29 pm (#267) – I think you and Jane are probably right. Messages get sent this way sometimes. I see no reason to believe that Reid would have been threatening you guys, partly because I don’t see what that would get him. He could have handled the question similarly to the way Sen. Boxer did. I’m quite sure he’s used to dealing with questions he’d rather not answer.
Goodnight.
Cozumel, I agree that it is not a legitimate issue. Markos explained the comment later. It was really just an impulsive posting and he didn’t mean it.
But, my point is that this is the beginning of the swiftboating of Markos. We need to be on our guard.
The Dems secret weapon against Lieberman is Al Gore.
Picture Al Gore repidiating Lieberman in public, and expressing his deep, heartfelt shame for ever elevating that wolf-in-sheeps-clothing to the National Stage.
Turn now, Joe, before its too late.
curtsy to you all – I’ve never worked so hard or had so much fun … and helping to get out the story of what all of you do … priceless!
and my kudos go to RGB who made us look good even when exhaustion was in full force – whatta wonder RGB is!
Cujo 253 — LOL — Harry Reid was most certainly NOT threatening me. Ask Atrios.
New thread.
threaten Jane …. bwaaahaaaahaaaa! she is one woman formidable!(insert french accent here)
Jane, did you email me?
maybe getting Joe out of the party will be enough for the rest of you, but it’s not enough for those of us living in Connecticut! We need him completely OUT of the Senate! (That was my “silver lining” when Gore picked him. I KNEW it was a disastrous choice, but if they managed to win, we’d get a new Senator.)
And if he runs as an independent, I really fear he’ll win. Much of his support comes from Republicans, and the Republican candidate is a joke. If he switches, it will be VITAL that the Lamont campaign get every Dem to the polls on election day.
Siun—it was a pleasure to do what little I did to help.
Jane Hamsher @ 9:59 pm (#287) – Flirting with you, was he?
This is all making me positively sick for some of the older folks who stuck by Lieberman here in CT partly because he’s been a Dem all these years. Lieberman is the type that causes low turnout and cynicism, depression and despair among older folks because they think nothing can change and nothing can get better. It doesn’t make me want to cheer so much as vomit that Lieberman is reportedly considering bucking parties.
The fact of the matter is that Lieberman makes all politicians look like crooks and cynical slicksters. He’s a voters’ catastrophe waiting to happen because of his record and the dishonest statements he puts forth. People who find out that he says one thing and votes another way become enraged. It doesn’t speak of “independence” the way Lieberman would like them to think. People feel taken advantage of and treated like naive rubes. I think Joe Lieberman has created a mess.
Next stop for Lieberman: Teaching courses 101 on how to demoralize your Democrat base, while posing as an “Independant.”
Who can forget (or forgive) Lieberman’s “courageous stand” during Clinton impeachment hearings.
He deserves a helluva lot of blame for depressing Gore’s showing in 2000.
When he said “…all actions have consequences.” Are you sure he wasn’t threatening you?
Sorry, I’m with rwcole et al on this.
Reid’s pseudomeaningful “consequences” line could be simultaneously read as a shot across everyone’s bow (Lieberman’s, Lamont’s, the blogosphere’s) and no one’s. It’s deliberately ambiguous vaporware, and hanging your hopes on Reid’s body language is a futile exercise. You can’t take body language to the bank.
(I took Jane’s advice to Joe Buck and “checked upthread” for proof otherwise and saw none.)
Or maybe Reid’s comment was directed to the opposition to Joe – the Ned supporters. Perhaps this was his wishy-washy way of saying we better support the incumbant or there will be consequences. I personally don’t believe he was wink, wink, nudge, nudging us with his open-faced comment. He’s part of the establishment, therefore part of the problem. His support for Lieberman shows the antiquated groupthink choking the democrats in Washington.
Just announced by Luskin that Fitz has told him there will be no Rove indictment.
Fitz?
Thanks. Got me thinking. Entertaining myself, one might say.
Lieberman as Montezuma: http://www.wreckingboy.com/mad…..r_t_1.html
It is unfortunate, the remark about the contractors that is being passed around. Their deaths probably escalated an already bad situation. I was shocked and outraged when it happened.
WARNING – POSSIBLE OFFENSE AHEAD
Not to speak ill of the dead, but these guys were no angels. They were there to kill Iraqi’s and they weren’t soldiers. They were just guys lookin’ for a fight. In fact, one guy was a one of those BigTime guys (major league asshole). He was arrogant and mouthy and may have said the wrong thing at the wrong time, as was his wont.
A few years ago a good friend of ours was invited to join an Eco-Challenge team. Remember those races? They took place in inhospitable climes, took days to complete and were broadcast on A&E (I think). One of those contractors, an ex-navy seal, was on the team, too. In just a few months, he had pissed everyone off so much that, in spite of the fact they had major sponsorship money, in spite of the fact they were all very jazzed about the experience, they disbanded the team. He then recruited a new team, which lasted a little longer before disbanding. We also saw him on TV, a couple of years later, on another extreme sport kinda team. All his teammates complained, on camera, about how abrasive he was and finally kicked him off the team.
WHile our friend’s team was still trying to make it work, Daddybrain took them all out on a local river to practice rafting, as that was one of the segments of the race. Contractor had never been in a raft before but knew it all anyway, tried to take charge and in five minutes managed to get them flipped (in 25 years of rafting, my husband’s first flip) and in the water.
We’ve wondered before if he might just not have been able to keep his mouth shut after they were captured.
Since nobody has said this yet:
Thank you for bringing up that Hair-Club for Men knock-off, the Club for Growth. If I hear one more media liberal express concern about left-wing 527s and/or bloggers hurting the Democratic party’s electoral position (as if it’s so good to begin with?) by dragging it out of the “mainstream” (TM) and to the left … if I hear one more pundit talking about the influence of such “liberal activist groups” with the implication that such influence is negative … if I hear anything like that with no more than a passing mention of Club for Growth, I think I’ll pull my hair out or something!
Won’t these self-proclaimed lovers of their own objectivity ever stop to consider how much could us lefties hurt the Dems considering that, if anything, the Club for Growth has helped the Republicans?
A view from CT:
Joe knows he has to win the primary. If he can’t beat Ned there, his chances of beating him in the general election get worse, not better. Assuming a humiliating primary defeat, what would he have going for him? A. Name recognition. B. Ability to attract conservative votes from both major parties.
And consider: His name recognition on the ballot would be more than offset by Lamont’s gains as the Dems’ official candidate. The big problem with Joe is that he took state Democrats’ support for granted and hopped on the Bush bandwagon far too often. His cavalier attitude toward his Democratic constituents has finally come back to bite him — and even those conservative Dems who might vote for him in a primary won’t be pleased to see him running against the party and splitting the vote in Nov.
The interesting thing would be watching how Joe positions himself to grab votes from the Republican candidate — something he’d have to do to have any shot at defeating Ned. Would Joe run further right? If so, how far? More likely he’ll play the middle and risk getting squeezed on both sides. He’ll probably have to. He can’t outflank either opponent without alienating the left or right.
Last but not least, think about what makes for an appealing independent candidate — and why Joe doesn’t fit the bill: He’s seen as an outsider (Nope, not Joe). His party has gone astray (Perhaps, but Joe is the furthest off the reservation). He’s his own man (Sure, but unfortunately that’s not the man CT voters want).
Bottom line: If Joe loses the primary, he’s done.
Bai-George
It is just possible that Reid meant the consequences of defeating Lieberman-going into the general election with a divided party and losing to the GOP.
Again with the annoying “Fitz” remarks. Give it a rest, will ya?
How about AIEE! Bai
It’s important for people to know that their actions have consequences.
That is a statement worthy of the Oracle at Delphi. It can be taken any way the listener wishes to, and it still seems to have the moral high ground. It is no wonder Harry Reid is the Senate Minority Leader.
Re: If Joe loses the primary, he’s done.
Believe me, I really hope that’s true and that Lamont will win in November.
But Lieberman has been serving in the Senate since 1989 and been in Conn. public life, almost continously since 1970. I guess what I’m wondering is, are there enough progressive voters in Conn. to toss a long time public servant and send Lamont to the Senate?
If not, and either a Republican or a loose cannon Lieberman is elected, we’ve lost one more seat in the Senate and possibly our ability to take it away from the Republicans.
I don’t care if the Dem Senator from Conn. is Gengis Khan. The goal in November should be wresting the Senate from the grimey little lunch hooks of Bill Frist. If we don’t do that, we’ll have about as much power (and ability to effect change) as a neutered cat.
Call me cautious but I guess I’m a “bird in the hand” sort of gal.