
Since I’m filling in this afternoon as the FDL crew recuperates or heads off to yet another blogfest, I thought I’d take the opportunity to dish about Jane and Pach and Christy behind their backs a little. And you too.
I think we can all agree that FDL made quite a splash at YKOS, can’t we? I was watching from afar, as most of you probably were, and people came over to my blog drooling over Jane and Christy. (I’m sure they would have drooled over Pach too, if they’d seen him.) The blogosphere was proud as a peacock to have such smart hot women representing them. Not that physical attractiveness is the most important thing, by far, but it certainly doesn’t hurt.
The Plame panel was a huge hit, fascinating and insightful — and regardless of the snooty pooh-poohing of the mainstream bozos, when Joseph Wilson and Murray Waas were given standing ovations, it choked me up, and I’ll bet it choked up a lot of people in that room too. I’ve been following Waas since the 90’s when he was one of the few who kept his head and exposed the fetid underbelly of the anti-Clinton movement in Salon Magazine. And any man who was willing to take on both Saddam Hussein in 1991 and the Bush Administration in the spring of 2003 cannot be considered anything but a hero. How proud I was to be a member of this tribe at that moment.
I believe this event represents the beginning of the next phase of the blogosphere. It’s still a nascent medium, to be sure, but it’s changing so fast it’s hard to see down the road even a few months. As I watched and read about the convention I was struck by the fact that FDL may represent the next phase of blogospheric political action. With the Roots project, political theatre like the Rubber Stamp campaign, and Jane and Christy and Pach’s public involvement. I think this community is developing into a new blog paradigm — focused, direct action, not just on campaigns, although that’s important, but on long term local development and immediate concentrated effort toward specific issues and causes that feed into the long term progressive strategy. Others are doing similar things, of course, and there will be more. But I think that Jane’s vision of internet community action is a little different thing than we’ve seen before — starting with her direct campaigns to mau-mau the media and now building a local internet infrastructure by listening closely to her readership and fostering a sense of mission among them.
This is a point that I think the media missed entirely in their coverage of the event. They focused, as the media always does, on the "leadership" talking about blogospheric hierarchy and inner circles and ministries. Very few bothered to focus on the attendees who were there as members of blogging communities rather than as bloggers. And that’s where the action is. Instead we get "observations" from such ex-blogging luminaries as Ana Marie Cox in which average blog readers are quoted on their preference for dropping bombs from 30,000 feet above rather than sticking a "bayonet in the enemy’s eye." She later brought up "militancy" and "lynching" (apparently because someone asked her to shut her piehole during a presentation.) I think you can see what she was getting at.
As far as I can tell, other than a few observations from reporters about how geeky or how old the participants were, nobody so far has seemed much interested in why people from all over the country, people who are not bloggers and who don’t have a profile, spent their hard earned money to come and meet others who participate in this thing of ours. And I think that’s the interesting story. Indeed, it’s the most important story. People are getting involved. They are personally putting their energy and their time and their money into politics on both the grassroots and the national level because of big communities like Kos, Atrios and FDL and smaller political spaces where the ideas and the dialog get refined. The political conversation is changing. Why, even Tim Russert finally understands that the left blogosphere is becoming a media voice for the Democratic party. (Of course he compared it to talk radio which was a big money, top-down wingnut project — the opposite of the bottom up left blogosphere. Baby steps.)
I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed hearing questioners at the panels asking bright informed questions and adding erudite, well reasoned comments, many of which have developed in our ongoing blogospheric gabfest. These same people (you) are taking those questions and comments to water coolers and dinner tables all over the country and passing them along to the real world. And you are going out and making change based upon what we’ve learned and how we see politics. This is how movements are made.
The blogosphere has many wonderful leaders and writers, some of them on this very blog. But it’s really the blog readers like the Firedoglake brigade who are on the cutting edge of the new American politics. Take a bow.
Thanks to Neutron at Daily Kos for the great pic.
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Roots
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How long before someone will have info on today’s hearing in the Libby case?
beautiful piece, digby (as typical for you, and I love your blog!)
what matters about the netroots is the ROOTS (and the ‘net)
because of big communities like Kos, Atrios and FDL
Don’t be bashful or overmodest, now. Your site should be on that list, too, at least for the quality of writing, but for other reasons too. It’s at the top of my list, anyhow.
Nicely said. the enthusiasm was contagious.
it feels great to participate rather than observe. thanks digby. your blog is great too!!!
While FDL is my fav. your blog is on my daily reading list. Thanks for the props. Roots!
“The Plame panel was a huge hit, fascinating and insightful — and regardless of the snooty pooh-poohing of the mainstream bozos, when Joseph Wilson and Murray Waas were given standing ovations, it choked me up, and I’ll bet it choked up a lot of people in that room too. I’ve been following Waas since the 90’s when he was one of the few who kept his head and exposed the fetid underbelly of the anti-Clinton movement in Salon Magazine. And any man who was willing to take on both Saddam Hussein in 1991 and the Bush Administration in the spring of 2003 cannot be considered anything but a hero. How proud I was to be a member of this tribe at that moment…”
Exactly. My sentiments exactly. Plame panel was a home run.
I sat down at the Take Back America conference this morning and started talking to the fellow next to me. Turns out he is an avid FDL reader (Unclaimed Territory too) who, like me, appreciates the dialogue that the hosts engage in here, unlike many blogs. Then, at lunch, I was lucky enough to sit down at the table with Taylor Marsh, who I had hoped to meet here! Taylor is super-cool. The conference so far was excellent. I didn’t get to Christy’s panel :(, but a number of luminaries, including Katrina Van Den Huevel gave good presentations on the bankruptcy of the conservative movement and the attractiveness of progressive policies.
More tomorrow, and Sen. Feingold on Wed.!!
peace,
jim
It’s been fascinating watching the So-Called Liberal Media try to squash YearlyKos into it’s “bloggers are all crazy, nerdy, far-left extremist kids sitting at home in their PJ’s” narrative. Too bad folks like Dowd and “Eraserhead” York completely missed the boat, as usual.
Of course, they didn’t recognize the power of the conservative movement when it started either. Until they joined it, anyway…
digby. hurm
klevenstein – I epu’d a response to your ACLU question below.
yeah … why isn’t Byron York actively fighting the Islamofascists over there? http://goarmy.com
I’ve said elsewhere that the MSM really din’t get what was going on.
It wasn’t about nerds who are so geeky they prefer to communicate through machines even though they are mere feet apart.
What they don’t get is that the conference was attended by thousands more virtually. And we virtual attendees were engaged with the physical attendees in real time even as they spoke with each other online.
This mix of in the flesh and online communication shows just how many more can be brought into an event and also how rapidly the message can be spread out and developed.
Not only were we all (real and virtual) attending Ykos, but many were also attending other important political events. So you had people attending multiple events at once. Talk about multi-tasking!
All this cross pollinization and development is what is really exciting and that is precisely what the media seems to have missed, as they focussed on the presidential frontrunners wooing voters with parties.
If they came prepared to sneer, then they got a surprise when they found out that angry doesn’t equate with rabid.
But angry we are.
Thanks, Digby, you were sorely missed at the conference. I’m not surprised that the only observations made by people like Wankette and other journalists seem to focus entirely on the people who were there who mattered the least — the politicians and journalists. Nobody seems to have noticed that the most interesting people there were, as you said, the people who paid their own money to show up and be a part of something. Who are interested in working for change. Putting faces to screen names and meeting people (and their families) was without question the most interesting part of the entire affair.
Do people like Wankette, AdNags and Modo so oblivious and self-involved they just didn’t notice the other 99.9% of the people there? I suppose so. More’s the pity, but they are wholly clueless about both the substance and the significance of the whole affair.
the bankruptcy of the conservative movement
It really feels like it’s dying, doesn’t it? For the first time since 2000, I feel like the country may finally get turned in a better direction. I can’t remember the last time any conservative policy got off the ground in Washington. Nothing but spin and rhetoric.
Is Redd at the TBA conference? Would love to say hey and introduce myself….
Right on Digby.
I had a hair on the arms standing up moment watching it on C-span2. It was awesome.And if some folks don’t get it? Kinda hard to miss a steam roller comin’ at ya.
We need a big blogging conference in the Fly-over states, now. Eschacon in Philly and Ykos in Las Vegas is great, but both are a looong walk from Wisconsin.
Just sayin’
Found it on the schedule!!
OK, finally someone with a great positive suggestion:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2…..oulter_to_ 0612.html
Next, it’s after 5pm ET Do we know where our Libby news is?
I remember watching Jon Stewart on Crossfire. I had goosebumps as I realized I was watching a historical act.
Watching the Plame Panel felt the same.
I expect the ripples from it will spread, in much the same way.
Uh sorry:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0612.html
Since I’m a happily married man, I of course did not notice that not only are Jane and Christy drool-worthy, but a high ratio of the kossacks who attended were just as drool-worthy.
The AP story is out about the Libby trial status conference today (the only link I’ve seen is to foxnews – so I skipped it) – I’m sure others will be linking to it shortly.
It’s all good, sounds like to me, so far. The second PDB document turnover is tomorrow, and NO major obstacles of privilege are being asserted as yet by the White House. A follow-up closed hearing on August 16th to sort out the CIPA details is now scheduled.
I went completely AWOL from my life last friday and I wasn’t even in Las Vegas!
The panel was truly splenderifous, and I too got all choked up more than once.
Major kudos and bravas to Jane and Christy as well as all the other panelists (I am officially in total awe of Joe Wilson having just now learned of his noose-moment with Saddam – so take THAT Laura Ingram!). You are both bright bright shining stars, I am sure the neons of Vegas were dimming in respect, as I was!
I’m not a C-SPAN junkie – I just go there when I know that something of interest to me is going to be on. I was struck, though, by the number of times C-SPAN replayed the Plame panel. Is this par for their course, or a sign of how much of a “public service” this panel was?
And Mary – nice EPU’d summary for klevenstein!
Damnit. I’ve GOT to find footage of that discussion! ACK!
This was a nice post Digby. The gang here do deserve a pat on the back. Big time.
YearlyKos was like a monolith of sorts. The whole blogsphere just made a significant evolutionary jump.
From the bump in the road to the road.
Fight, fight, fight, in a thousand different ways, individually and together. Wonkette turns into a malicious pig, stick it to her (!), make her pay, like Kos said at one of the panels. Loved him on Meet the Press, by the way, the polished persona must have surprised some people taken in by the stereotypes.
No question we are starting the next phase and the underground aspect of this thing (a side effect of being written off contemptuously by mainstream observers) means the maturing process has proceeded in relative peace so far.
I agree focused campaigns are important and it takes a special kind of leader to sense the right time and the right target. Such campaigns not only set the other guys back on their heels (because they know exactly where it’s coming from), but build solidarity withing the group and an education for victory. Think Lieberman.
.
http://www.bgladd.com/FDL/Plam…..msher1.jpg
http://www.bgladd.com/FDL/Plam…..msher2.jpg
http://www.bgladd.com/FDL/Plam…..msher3.jpg
I’m glad the punditocracy and the bloggettes missed the entire point — we wouldn’t want them tipping off their buddies to the real threat over cocktail wienies, would we?
Seeing MoDo adopt her “ignorant feminine little me” persona — actually watching it happen! — was enough for me. These conflicted, deluded kewl kidz are terrified they’re missing the next big thing, so they flatter their masters by denigrating us.
Contrast MoDo with Jane’s response to Aravosis after he tried — unsuccesfully! — to define Jane’s presence on the Big Topic panel: “I’m the girl.” Priceless and genuine.
#17
Yes, that’s an excellent point. Was this perhaps the first online convention? I felt like I was there and even caught a good whiff of the excitement. It seemed so to me. (I attended nude, of course, since I can’t bear to wear pajamas, and I don’t miss the sore feet I usually get from conventions.)
I imagine that next year will be even more virtual. It would be interesting to find out how many people followed the events online. my readers certainly did.
d
Digby great post! Thank you for your words of encouragement.
Count me in as one who followed events online. It was an exciting weekend!
One of the most pressing issues facing the NetRoots is how to either neutralize or win over the press. Given the oligarchic owners, I despair of the latter but I think we need to figure out strategies for confronting/working with/addressing the media.
Clearly, they have a hard time comprehending a decentralized movement. Maybe it doesn’t compute…we have been systematically taught to knee-jerk look to authority and celebrity. Or, perhaps, it fits their message and “demeans” and “deflates” the movement by making it seem that it is centered around the cult of personality. Given the statements regarding the “Trek Convention” I tend to think it’s the latter. At any rate, this is one small example.
I would be VERY interested in learning what was discussed on this subject at YKos…given that I couldn’t be there except in spirit and computer linkage. Thanks!
hmmmm, let’s just hope that the ‘movement’ isn’t stopped in its tracks through a byproduct of net neutrality being crushed…gee, you don’t think the rethuglicans have realized this just like big business has….just think, rotten political institutions from the top to the bottom, diebold voting machines and now hamper the plebe’s ability to use the internet as a political tool – a rethuglical dynasty in the works?!
Baby steps: because of the excitement of ykos I started making long posts on my own previously dormant blog.
I was also emboldened to take Glenn’s book with me when having dinner with a Congressman. We talked about ykos, which they had “sort of” heard about. Then talked about netroots in general and future impact on politics.
Talk radio…was a big money, top-down wingnut project %u2014 the opposite of the bottom up left blogosphere.
Since we progressives are all about accuracy–this is not quite right. In the beginning, Limbaugh at least was a true populist phenom, much as it galls me to say it. Once the bandwagon started moving, then corporate and other moolah began to grease its wheels.
Christy is (was this morning) at the TBA conference. I have no idea how long she is sticking around. I’ll keep an eye out for her.
As far as helping out in targeted spots, there are a number of places to go. First, of course, is Feingold’s Progressive Patriots Fund . In Pennsylvania, Joe Sestak is trying to unseat Curt “How nutty do you want me to be?” Weldon. Check him out at SestakForCongress . Of course, there are lots of others, like Casey, Lamont, etc. Now I need to put my money (not much left) where my mouth is and find out who’s running against Dana Rohrabacher. My blood is still boiling after spending an hour in the same room with that creep last week!
peace,
jim
More baby steps: from watching especially the Lamont people I decided to crawl out from under my blanket and make calls/send emails to ASK friends to vote for Webb for Senate in Virginia tomorrow. I’m shy, this wasn’t easy.
Calling everyone–if you KNOW anyone in Virginia please call/email and ask them to vote for James Webb for Senate tomorrow. It’s supposed to be a very close race, turnout will be critical.
[returning to blanket and cookies]
I sure felt like I was there too. Without actually having to schlep myself around! I wonder if those of us holding down the fort were even more excited than the attendees!
peterr @ 2:22pm
CSPAN seems to like Joe Wilson. In 2004, they gave a lot of play to a “Books on President Bush” panel that included Wilson. It was such a great panel that I bought the DVD and played it at several dinner parties. It was the first time I saw (rather than just read about) Joe Wilson and immediately fell in love with him. (In the same way I fell in love with Richard ben Veniste when I went to see the Watergate hearings in person.)
And isn’t it CSPAN who was responsible for getting Colbert for the Washington Correspondents’ Dinner?
Digby:
Are you gonna come to the next LA blogger’s party? Did you get Kevin Drum’s invite?
Come on, you’ll have fun!
Ya know,if I believed in the Rapture and stuff,Wankette working for Time has to be one of those unleashing of a horseman moments.I mean,People or US,or maybe the National Enquirer?Sure,she’d blend right in there.Which is proof positive Time has become litter box liner.Gee,can’t even imagine why blogs are popular with smart people,nope,it’s a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
I guess the media types mostly showed up for the food and drink and to huddle together.Why did they bother?They coulda just watched from home on CSpan and the internets.
The Plame Panel was just wonderful,freaking EPIC.I sat here just proud and a bit misty eyed,I probably would have made a spectacle of myself had I been there,lol.
One of the most pressing issues facing the NetRoots is how to either neutralize or win over the press.
Neutralize is probably the most likely option. Most bloggers still at least need the SCLM for sources, if nothing else. They still have the money and resources to do investigative journalism, something that most blogs do not have (though that’s changing).
Speaking as an accountant, I suspect the media views bloggers in much the same way CPA’s view the little old lady and Mom and Pop, Inc. that’s been doing the books since 1954. They see an implied threat from quality work being done sans the academic and peer-review kudos most mainstream columnists respect. They also see that bloggers, for the most part, have no problem with credibility. After all, what conflict of interest do we have? None of us are getting rich writing our political views daily. Many of the mainstream columnists, and Dowd falls into this category, seem to have a very dismissive attitude of bloggers because bloggers write for the sheer enjoyment of it and for the chance to influence the country’s dialogue, without the need for a profit motive.
AP story on Libby hearing today has hit the wires ….
http://www.twincities.com/mld/…..802026.htm
Nothing much there, really.
OT — Jesus’ General has scored another coup — the “most helpful” review on Amazon.com for Coulter’s book.
“How can you not love someone who calls for the bombing of newspapers, demands the conversion of non-Christians by the sword, and mocks the grieving of Cindy Sheehan for her son and the 911 widows for their husbands. Coulter’s popularity is the ultimate proof that America has rejected the old, compassionate, French-minded Jesus of the Beatitudes and adopted the Jesus of Our Leader, a savior who isn’t afraid to […] and slay nations, a redeemer who despises the weak and belittles the grieving.”
Gotta love it.
Webb for Senate
Webb can defeat George Allen in November. The other guy can’t. Take back the Senate!
The Plame Panel was excellent, and the presentations were what I would expect from the level of the participants involved. Thank goodness, for c-span.org.
And, how gracious, witty, and “polite” Jane was. Imagine if she had “let go” as she did in the earlier post, calling me by a word one should use only in clinical fashion at the dog pound. Thank goodness, also for Christy, who maintains her dignity, off and on the Post.
Pacifica –
Thanks for the C-SPAN stuff. As for Colbert, that was the choice of the head of the Washington Correspondent’s association (or whatever the name of the sponsoring group is). C-SPAN had nothing to do with choosing him; they just got to put him up on TV!
Hi firepups. Getting settled back home after an amazing experience at YKos. Thought I’d fire off a few impressions, then I’ve gotta go mow the lawn before the neighbors start up a petition.
Our Goddesses: what everyone has said before, ditto. Both are really warm and personable; hard to fathom how they can bite heads off in print. But thank god they can!
Now for some of the folks you know from comments and the front page, in alphabetical order.
Barbara B. Is one smart lady. A law professor, sharp as a tack. She looks like a Palm Beach socialite (to me anyway), but it doesn’t take long to discover the sharp cookie inside that wrapper.
BobbyG: He was talking to me when he spotted MoDo, and he really did start to hyperventilate, then ran over to genuflect. Other that that one little lapse, he’s a real gentleman and just a total, total sweetheart.
The Brain Family: (Mommybrain, Daddybrain, and Lukebrain). If you can tell the quality of parents by the way a kid turns out, they are great ones. Luke is a talented artist and a budding snarkster. Thanks for giving me dibs on the pony, kid. And Mommybrain, fling ‘em, baby!
emptywheel: We all knew how brilliant she is, but did you know she figures things out faster than the speed of light? The bullshit has not even left a speaker’s mouth, and she has a four page post in mind. I told her I rarely comment at TLH because once she finishes with a subject, what the hell is left to say? She referenced a Kos diarist who likened that phenomenon to “a fart in a cathedral.” She modestly encouraged comments; one really would think her head should be bigger to house all that intellectual firepower, but it’s not, she’s quite down-to-earth.
Kathryn from Ma: a living doll. She is the sparkplug who brings people together and makes sure things happen. Thanks for the loan of the laptop (and redshift and rbg.) (Sorry I didn’t comment from ykos more, guys, but I was lap-topless.)
Katymine: She makes it happen from within the Democratic party in AZ. I warn you, do not try to put any shit over on Katymine, she ain’t buying. As she and TeacherKen helped me out with a minor medical thing, she shrugged off my thanks, saying “we’re Democrats, the party that looks out for one another. The Republicans are the party that looks out for themselves.” That’s it in a nutshell. (BTW, Katymine, brown recluse ruled out, doesn’t respond to Keflex.)
Matt O.: He is just the goddamned nicest
young manperson I ever met. Warm, kind, caring, polite, modest, smart, intense, involved, tall, dark, and handsome (and 2 earrings, you can’t tell from BobbG’s photo). VG was not exaggerating in the superlatives she heaped on him. Matt O for president 2024!Pach: Top secret, sorry. (I will say he is very polished, professional, smart and motivating – a thoroughly impressive guy.)
rbg: Nice legs, nice voice, and a snarky, snarky wit. (”Bible thumper” my ass, buddy, more like bible stomper.)
Redshift: One of the more low-keyed FDLers; very much worth getting to know, quietly funny (he liberates that more in his
comments). Active in VA Dem politics, crappy craps player. Sorry about the sixty bucks.
RevDeb: Activist extrordinaire – I am in awe of the amount of energy she puts in on behalf of abortion rights and other issues. I
will not repeat some of the things that came out of her mouth; her congregation might be listening. ;)
Siun: even us peons could not take a crap at that convention without getting a camera stuck in our … well, never mind. What an amazing job she and the media team did in getting ykos blanketed by the media. Big thanks and big hugs!
TeddySanFran: Wow. Teddy in person is EXACTLY like Teddy on a thread, only a little louder. He is wickedly funny, completely charming, and I just adore the big lug even more upon meeting him in the flesh.
Zennurse: Needs no introduction; not one iota of variance from her fdl thread persona. A real class act, warm and welcoming.
Unfortunately, with such a huge venue, and too little time for the firepups as a group, I did not get to spend as much time with everyone as I would have liked. Hopefully, we’ll figure out a way to rectify that next year. May I say that every single one of you, both at YKos and back home minding the store, makes me so proud to be a member of this outstanding community.
I was so touched by Waas, for some reason I started to well up with tears when I watched him. He’s got real pathos as a persona and he’s had such a hard road.
btw, Digby, in all sincerity, you are a profoundly magnificent writer. I’ve said that many times about you but now I can tell you *face to face*.
looseheadprop (and others who earlier said kind things to me in the last thread) — thank you, my very dears.
Kate O’Beirne’s Teeth — where the hell you teefies BEEN, huh? We so bereft without your hurm, just look how bent-out-of-shape some of us are today!
Margaret and Jane — I was really sorry to see what happened between you two just now, and I look forward to better days between you when Jane’s exhaustion abates.
mayan #36:
I wasn’t at YKos, so I don’t know what was discussed. FWIW, my take is that eventually the M$M will have to find us if they want to continue to grow their businesses.
Using myself only as an example, I watch maybe 10% as much TV as I did five years ago (and I didn’t watch all that much even then), and I’ve gradually cancelled subscriptions to dead-tree publications as I’ve found myself letting back issues pile up unread. Network TV ratings continue to decline, “terrestrial” (commercial) radio is losing audience to commercial-free sattelite competitors, partly because Clear Channel homoginized local broadcasting to save a little money, etc.
Sooner or later, some bright advertisers and media types will decide that their greed’s more powerful than their fear (of us, of RW retaliation, etc.) and we’ll be “discovered” as an audience worth some tailored programming. When that happens, engagement on a serious rather than a superficial level will ensue.
Until then, there’s Wankette.
Greatest hits: Jon Stewart on Crossfire, Phil Donahue & Billy O’Reilly, Colbert at WH Press Corps dinner & now the Plame panel. Memories to cherish when it all gets to be too much.
Media not getting it: deliberately obtuse or just plain brain dead?
A. Liptak on today’s doings in the Detroit NSA case (haven’t read it yet, just bringing the paper in from TS Abu fer ya)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06…..nted=print
Great post.
Heartening event.
Important site.
OK, someone must know of video of the panel somewhere out there? Anyone?! I feel so left out. *POUT*
Contrast MoDo with Jane’s response to Aravosis after he tried %u2014 unsuccesfully! %u2014 to define Jane’s presence on the Big Topic panel: “I’m the girl.” Priceless and genuine.
Hey Teddy!
I loved your comment at #34.
Here’s a question:
Somehow I managed to miss the Aravosis moment. It sounds like a remarkably stupid and sniping comment he made — what was Jane’s response, or where can I find it?
Real life has been grabbing too much attention at this house — sorry to distract the conversation if it’s someplace obvious and I should’ve seen it.
SteveAudio at 45 -
I’m on the westside of L.A. and would love to come to any events you put together! er, unless you’re talking about Louisiana….
Lotus 54 – I’m not kidding. If this bullshit starts to hijack yet another thread I’m deleting and banning. There will be no “better” and anyone who wants to discuss that particular topic is welcome to dig back into previous threads and do so. That has nothing to do with “exhaustion,” how very condescending of you to say so.
Mary, I finally got back here and read your aclu vs nsa sumMary on the last thread.
I love your Nixon/Mitchell reminisce, and though only a young frosh at the time, I remember it similarly.
THANKS !!!
mayan,
I think you hit the nail on the head for me.I like being a part of this movement because of the lack of worship of authority or celebrity.I distrust both.I look to those on this site and a few others who have won me over with ideas and clear reasoning.I’ve gotten involved because of the leaders on this site!I trust them,because they trust us and treat us as equals.
Empty talking points can’t match that!
I am so envious that I was not able to attend. Even if personal issues weren’t there, I am not sure I would have worked up the energy required to engage and attend. But now that it is over and I have been reading about YKos, I am kicking myself that I wasn’t there….
Congrats to Jane and Christy and emptywheel. I haven’t seen the video of the Plamegate panel yet, but I plan on it. Man, that sounds like it rocked.
If you think things are bad for our troops, read this about the Iraqi soldiers fleeing their Army because of no pay, no food, etc.
And chimpy Preznit tells us as they “step up, we will stand down”?
http://www.estripes.com/articl…..ection=104
HADITHA, Iraq — Iraqi soldiers in Al Anbar province are leaving their army in droves, draining much-needed manpower from fledgling Iraqi security forces and preventing U.S. troops from reducing troop strength in the volatile region, U.S. and Iraqi military officials say.
Lousy living conditions, bad food and failure to receive regular pay are the main reasons behind the exodus, which is running at least several hundred soldiers a month, the officials say.
“Many of my soldiers have not gotten paid in six months. Sometimes, they don’t eat for two or three days at a time. I tell my commander, but what else am I supposed to do?” said Lt. Moktat Uosef, a 29-year-old Iraqi army company commander based in Husaybah.
Uosef’s brigade is one of the most troubled. The 4th Brigade of the 7th Iraqi Army Division has lost nearly half its soldiers during the past six months, dropping from 2,200 troops in December to fewer than 1,400 in May, according to Marines who work with the Iraqi unit.
In Haditha, the Iraqi army brigade has been losing about 100 soldiers a month, dropping from more than 2,000 at the beginning of the year to fewer than 1,600 in May, Marines said.
Somehow I didn’t even know this was happening until I saw it while channel surfing on C-SPAN. Two things: 1) Great work to all involved. 2) Can the next one be in Austin? Holding it on a blue island in a red state will drive the wingers more nutters then they already are.
I am a happily married man so of course I did NOT notice that these two brilliant women happened to be drop-dead gaw-juss.
Sorry, off topic
But this is important election reform news
Florida House Candidate to face litany of criminal charges after alleging vote fraud
Hope everyone had a great time at the convention
egregious #42–AWESOME JOB.
And I know how you feel. It was the blogs that finally inspired me to actual political action, too–and then I never stopped.
THAT’S why, my friends, the blogs are going to take over the universe!! FEEEeeel the power!
jim preston @41 and elsewhere,
If you get to talk to Feingold, maybe you could ask him why he refuses to take a stand for Net Neutrality.
I like Russ – I respect a lot of the positions he’s taken on important issues – but this makes no sense to me. Supporting NN ought to be a no-brainer for him. Any Roots folk in Wisconsin (jim? others?) who want to chat with their Senator about this very important issue?
There’s an awful lot on FDL, both in articles and in comments, about how hot certain women we like are, and how, um, not certain women we don’t like are. Now, I appreciate looking at an attractive woman as much as the next straight man, but it seems to me that there’s a certain unfriendly aspect to it.
There are plenty of passionate, brilliant, progressive women out there who look more like Kate O’Bierne than Jane Hamsher (on a good day after a tough diet), and the typical FDL comment thread can’t feel good to them. Now, Jane’s spent plenty of time in Hollywood, so if she were too bothered by the evident requirement that a woman, to be taken seriously, has to do everything a man has to do plus be a babe, she no doubt just deals.
But given the rather nasty flame war that developed on Kos after someone referred to a well-known Kos personality as a MILF, maybe it’s time to back off some on the “femaleBloggerX is so HOT!!!” thing.
Thanks for stopping by, Digby. Your peculiar felicity of expression is always appreciated.
By the way, Jack the Cat is a celeb here in Jersey. The Newark Star-Ledger did a more detailed story, including the fact that Jack is clawless. It was ALL attitude.
Digby,
Just the right post. At just the right moment.
It’s still a nascent medium, to be sure, but it’s changing so fast it’s hard to see down the road even a few months.
Where it is going is toward the science fiction concept of the ‘hive mind’.
john at 68, I just got an email from Grapski. Vicious stuff happening in Florida.
Dear ____, Thanks so very much for your support and contribution. I am just now getting a chance to go through what took place yesterday as I was without internet access till late last night.
Please know how much appreciated your support is – not only to myself but to all of those here fighting in the City of Alachua.
Thanks again,
Charlie
klevenstein – the NYT article linked above says about what I thought it might say after the hearing.
I still think the strong emphasis that both ACLU and Cong. place on the FISA aspects sidesteps their stronger argument – the outright application of the 4th Amendment, aside and apart from FISA. IMO, what Mitchell did in the Keith case was, in essence, to invoke the state secrets defense. He met all three prongs of the Reynolds test in what he did and asked for, he just said “for reasons of national security” instead of saying the words “state secrets”.
I think that, while the focus was on the actual wiretaps, Keith may have also established precedent for how the state secrets defense holds against a claim of government criminal or unconstituional conduct.
We’ll have to see how it plays out, but I’ve been one frustrated, mad, depressed and unhappy camper lately. If you had told me ten years ago that there would ever come a time I’d make a donation to ACLU, I would have been rolling on the floor with laughter, despite having had two friends who each did short stints with them before I knew them.
Listen,
I really love it here and I don’t want to get banned, so I’m gonna sign off for the night a lot earlier than usual.
Hope to see you tomorrow Lotus.
Jane 61 — no condescension intended, but you are coming across as Jane-Hamsher-when-her-nerves-are-raw today.
Small wonder, given the last 120 hours of your life.
I wish you excellent sleep tonight, and that’s the last I have to say about this.
op99 –
Thanks so much for your detailed and interesting report! You confirmed for me my “hunch” about what all these folks are like in person — interesting, fun, smart people, each one a gem.
One thing worried me though, regarding your toss-away remark on the medical problem:
(BTW, Katymine, brown recluse ruled out, doesn’t respond to Keflex.)
Forgive me for jumping in on this, but the way you talked about this reminded me of the god-awful (and dangerous) skin infection I had earlier this year.
Initially I had what I thought was probably a spider bite. That’s how this skin infection frequently initially presents itself, symptoms very similar to spider bite.
Instead, it was CA-MRSA — community-acquired (as opposed to “hospital-acquired”) methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus.
This is a nasty “super-bug” which has become something of a serious epidemic all around the country, but especially strongly ensconced in the Southwest.
Keflex would not even touch it — this skin infection is very difficult to treat, requiring combinations of some very serious antibiotics to kill it. Medical professionals are very worried about its spread, and about how it can mutate.
If you have symptoms like — a section of red and/or swollen and/or hot skin — GET THEE TO AN E.R. IMMEDIATELY.
Sorry for shouting. I’m just concerned for you. If it really is just a bug bite, or if all your symptoms are gone now, then I apologize for jumping in here like that.
It’s just that lots and lots of folks (me included) have no idea what’s happening when it hits. And many, many people believe they’ve gotten a spider bite.
Not treating such an infection a.s.a.p., agressively, can have very serious consequences — some people have had amputations, and worse. Don’t mean to scare you, you know? Just would hate to see somebody (and somebody as wonderful as you!) have a problem.
peterr @ 2:38
The current VP and the incoming President of the White House Correspondents Association is Steve Scully of CSPAN. He is responsible for choosing Colbert and afterwards he was quoted as checking with CSPAN to see if they were still ok with him.
SteveAudio -
Hope I didn’t come off as ‘too cheeky’. I only meant if you’re having an ‘open’ type gathering, not expecting to be invited to an ‘in party’ of established friends, of course.
Oh never mind, if I keep putting my foot in my mouf I’ll be here all day trying to wriggle it out! I’m sure you get my drift.
Jack is clawless. It was ALL attitude.
Damn, Jack should’ve been at YearlyKos. He would have cleaned up at the poker tables.
Zergle @ 2:45 pm (#59 – If you go the C-Span video collection page, it’s there. It’s called “YearlyKos Convention” or something like that.
http://www.c-span.org/VideoArc…..=Issue,MP;
Steve Scully is WONDERFUL imo. I love how he handles the calls and they can be so all over the board, and how he is so respectful and yet non-partisan with everyone he has on and his callers too.
If 25% of journalists were like him, the world would be a 90% better place (still jmo).
Jenny 62/81:
No problem. Drop a comment over at my place, or my email is available over there as well.
http://steveaudio.blogspot.com
The once-upon-a-time-long-ago-and-far-away President Albert Gore will be on Larry King on CNN at 9pm tomorrow discussing inconvenient truths and other topics…
Pacifica @ 81
I
standsit corrected.I heard an interview with him where he was talking about the choice of Colbert, and making it clear that it was his choice as head of the press association (in contrast to his “private” capacity as part of one particular journalistic outfit).
Hey Digby, great to see you here, thanks! Your point is well taken that often the Netroots, this community and often the Dem Party which run from the bottom up … by the time the MSM or Rep’s print their observations they have had to translate their observations into RepSpeak… which means they keep looking for that Godlychosen person at the top who spouts directions to the masses. They ALWAYS miss the point that our strength comes from the base upwards. We rummage around for ideas, debate them back and forth, spring into action, gather in more ideas, spring into action, invite more people in, spring into action, each time moving forward, getting better and better because we love to be proactive; ie, the Towers are struck, don’t tell me to go shopping or duct tape my home, ASK ME TO THINK!
Hi Op99. What Mrs. K8 said! Get thee to help ASAP. I want you to come out here and play craps with me some more! Lukebrain is a budding anar*hist, IMHO. We have to remind him sometimes that not everone feels like we do about the pres.
*ooabby was here on Sunday night. We all said hello.
Keep us posted on the med stuff, ok?
I appreciate everyone’s support Sunday. I was awakened at 8:11 am (weird I slept so late, I’m a crack-o’-dawn kinda gal) by my vet calling to say my cat had passed away in the night. She had some kind of kidney thing that took her in three days. I’m afraid I made Jane cry when I told her. I haven’t told Luke yet and he wants to go get her now, so we’re having THE TALK in a few minutes. Poor kid, he’s lost 2 grandpa’s, 3 cats, 1 dog, and 1 pet rat in his short life. I always say, ya gotta have a strong heart to love a pet.
Life is short, but the days and nights are long.
OT: Mary, Klevenstein – Andrew Cohen wrote about this at his WaPo blog. Nothing new that I can see relative to what you two have discussed already, but it’s nice to see that someone else appreciates the irony:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com….._ends.html
More info on Charlie – here – here and here
This is one of the good guys. Someone – extremely intelligent, and a guy who truly cares about where this country is going
I sent a request to CPAN to see if they would be making a DVD available for the 2006 YearlyKos Convention. Noticed while I was on their site that you can contact them to submit a public event that you think that they should cover. Hmmm… Just a thought.
Hey FDL, are you ready to make an impact in the fight for Net Neutrality?
Josh at TPM has a tally of who’s on board in the Senate.
We need to start fighting soon, but we cannot focus exclusively on the Senators themselves. This campaign must include all media outlets, national and local. We need to get people outside the blog-o-sphere riled up about this as well.
I also think we need to come up with a few crystal-clear examples of why this is critical. Examples of how this will effect free speech and also commerce.
For example. Why not describe it like this:
Substitute In ‘N’ Out and McDonalds for your local favorite places and the issue is clear for anybody.
I’m not saying this is the best analogy, but collectively, we should be able to come up with some excellent ones. Then we need to flood the local media with them.
Kate O’Beirne’s Teeth have been hrrrrm-et(h)ically sealed away
mommybrain, sorry to hear about your cat, and what a difficult thing to explain to a child… I think our love of life, be it human or animal, is one of our strengths.
SteveAudio 86 -
Will do.
Congratulations, all of you.
You went to Las Vegas.
Wow.
great post digby, thanks. love your writing.
mommybrain – very sorry about the loss of your cat. been there, done that – twice recently.
mommybrain -
I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your cat. That will be a hard talk. Jeesh.
:(
I have 2 dogs and a cat. They are like my children. I swear, Lucie has gotta be my daughter reincarnate; big hair, too much energy, and always in trouble. http://www.bgladd.com/Lucie.jpg
Max, our cat, is getting way old. We’ve had him 12 years.
Lou Dobbs is getting just about as upset over electronic voting machines as he is about brown-skinned folk…his new interest is more socially responsible, I’d say…
Mrs. K8, thanks for your concern. The story is, since I seem to get more than my fair share of infections, I take antibiotics with me when I travel just in case. Talked to my Dr. by phone, started Keflex, dramatic shrinkage of inflammation followed. Saw the doc upon my return, am monitoring closely. So all is well and the damn thing looks much better by the hour.
peterr @ 3:18pm
Good point. I am SURE that CSPAN is an objective news organization that would never officially promote such a partisan point of view like Colbert’s.
I believe they were also the first MSM outlet to showcase Christy.
What I see is a MSM outlet that seems to be willing to present a balanced point of view. This may be an opportunity that we could find ways to exploit.
It is really gratifying to see how FDL, Digby, DKOS and the liberal blogs are now themselves moving into the “mainstream”. Now that the community is attracting serious attention, I suspect it has moved beyond the stage of being ridiculed. The community will be seen as a real threat – next up, it seems, is to expect a fight.
It will be interesting and I’m sure, most invigorating!
– tim
Joe Buck 72
You made a good and correct observation. I was thinking the same thing.
Digby, I really like 99 percent of your stuff.
You are awesome, dude!
alright, let me ask the unspoken question to digby: are you a dude or a dudette?
OT
Cujo – take that irony one more step out and add the rest of Gov’s argument.
BTW, if we do target someone using illegal and unconstitutional means, we reserve the right to designate them, at the President’s sole and unreviewable discretion, enemy combatants and whisk them off without disclosure to friends or family, without habeas, to secret detention, secret interrogation including torture at the President’s election, and based on that secret torture and statements made in connection therewith, to hold a secret tribunal not bound by the UCMJ and have a secret
murderdeath sentence imposed and applied.Isn’t it nice that the bar is keeping abreast of the rising job market in China?
Sorry if this link is redundant, it’s the AP story on today’s Fitz meeting:
http://tinyurl.com/zny7d
Digby rocks.
whew…just went over to wunderground to check on the Alberto progress and they’re snapping at each other over THERE. As a note, the astrologers across the board have been warning about the energies prevalent during the next two weeks. Best advice they give is to stay calm, stay aware, and don’t get hooked…being clear headed and a bit detached can be most important when one is forced (!) to jump into action. Punaise…glad to see you showed up, you will likely provide a smile or two to lighten the discourse. Meanwhile, if anyone is tempted to take a swipe at me, don’t waste your time. I’m going offline to try and get work done that I neglected all day. Peace to all. Kate
I used to peruse Wonkette’s, but I didn’t like the way she came down on – or made light of – important progressive issues/people. No wonder she got hired by the right. Though she may draw some clients to the rag mag, she is no progressive/liberal. She is an opportunistic jokester who is sometimes funny.
I know I speak for no one but myself, and I know it’s political suicide to even consider the prospect, but while I was watching YK on the weekend, I couldn’t help thinking that this was a group of people (a member of which I hope I can consider myself) who were desperate for a political party to sweep them off their feet (so to speak). I honestly think that the minds and the sensibilities that abound in the net roots are too good for the Democratic Party (and we don’t even have to mention their relationship to the Repugnicans, who don’t deserve to be on the same planet, let alone the same political system). Let’s hope that Markos’s hope for a Democratic slate from top to bottom inhabited by folks who “don’t undermine the party” will come true. We live in hope.
Keep fighting the good fight.
Cujo359 @84
Huge thanks! Off to watch now!
mommybrain, so sorry to hear about your cat. Good luck with “the talk.”
Dover Bitch 94, see my #71. I agree completely about finding good analogies – the one I often read, that it makes the Internet “more like cable,” doesn’t really work for me – it’s too vague. But your McDonald’s/In-N-Out example is great.
Mary-
Isn’t something new breaking in this case with respect to the open admissions by the Gov’t to the effect that they had clearly defied FISA?
Are open, public statements admissible as evidence in a case like this?
Thanks again for your insight (I’m only a dumb engineer; I can do software that plans your flight, flies your airplane and displays all the data, but can’t figure out a legal proceding; not until 2012 when I start my 3rd career, this time in Law)…
lotus 79 — this conversation has dominated the blog for days. It’s time someone came in and cleaned it up, and that someone is unfortunately and quite unwillingly at the moment me. And your comments are extremely condescending and presumptuous — it’s the willingness to get in and redirect things when they start to devolve into endless, repetitious axe-grinding that keep the space free for people to discuss things in a positive environment. I’m not surprised that people neither understand that nor appreciate it, but that is in fact how we do it.
Larry J at No Quarter has short piece “Guantanimo and Animal Farm”..it is worth a read.
http://noquarter.typepad.com/
-GSD
Dover Bitch 94:
Permission to send that analogy to DiFi? (She might actually understand it.) Or maybe I’ll sub in department-store names.
op99 –
Oh, I’m so happy to hear that! Glad my worries were not warranted.
Mommybrain, more hugs on kitty. Din’t know if you wanted it broadcast so I kep my mouf shut.
*ilson 106, Ian Welsh (Agonist) seems to know Digby’s gender, but we couldn’t winkle it out of him at dinner last night.
But people are ignoring Michael Savage’s larger point:
Conservative talk host Michael Savage says liberals could turn Zarqawi “into a hero even though he killed thousands of people and was arrested for sexual molestation in Jordan. %u2026 He was an altogether piece of human offal, you know. He was like a [Rep. John] Murtha %u2014 he was like a human Murtha.”
-GSD
mommybrain –
Just now caught your post above about your cat! Oh no! Am sending a prayer right now, especially for Luke.
Since I’m caring for a beloved pup with cancer, I know how it rips your heart out. Hugs to you!
I also know how great the support at FDL is — the night we got the diagnosis/prognosis, this place helped enormously to get through those immediate hours. Please feel free to ask for more hugs, or whatever’s needed.
OT sorry it’s tech question. For the last 2 weeks I keep getting a “Warning,Unresponsive Script”pop up. I have to click on the continue button to refresh the thread. I only get it here at FDL. Any one?
Canuck 112
Many prolly do feel the way you describe. Many feel that they are stuck with the dems for lack of a viable liberal party. But what happened in Canada is what happens here with third party candidates. Vote splitting in Canada installed Conservative Harper (whom the majority of Canadian voters didn’t want).
Mary @ 3:37 pm (#107) – China? I was having flashbacks to all that stuff I used to read from Amnesty International about Chile, Argentina, etc.
But, yes, I suppose it’s nice that lawyers will have the same legal system here that they do elsewhere in the world. That will make their skills more transferable, albeit less necessary.
Lookit that, GSD — somebody just out-obscened Ann Coulter.
Stunning achievement!
Bustednuckles-
Did you try writing something more exciting? ;)
Egregious,
more info on Charlie at 92
Mommybrain,
Really sorry about brainycat
Gotta run, L8r
GSD –
OMFG, is that quote for real, “a human Murtha”? Unbelievable.
These people must have all attended the “Rwandan Genocide School for Radio Broadcasting.”
Jane (and Leslie and PJ),
I have a suggestion for a thread. I have always thought that Democrats have a long way to go when it comes to using language effectively.
I am also a firm believer in the analogy as a critical tool for communication. I think that the way we’re going to make this issue a no-brainer for the general public is by coming up with a handful of plain-as-day analogies.
How about a thread like the Joke Lyin’ threads, where FDL readers can suggest and vote for the best analogies to explain the Net Neutrality issue? Then, we go to work at all levels and forms of media to make the public put pressure on the Senate to do the right thing?
Any seconds on that idea?
Bustednuckles @ 3:50 pm (#123) – To be fair, the previous PM was not the choice of the majority, either. That’s why Canada had two elections in, what was it, two years? Between Quebec and the preponderance of other parties, it’s amazing they can have governments last as long as the Liberals did.
???
Man, anyone criticizes the tone liberal progressives take, I got four words for ya:
Ann Coulter Michael Savage.
Gimme a break.
re: my last (3:55pm #131) Should have said hackworth @ 3:50pm (#124).
Cut, paste, think. Maybe I got the steps mixed up.
OfT (but about YK):
Mike Stark’s got a great story about his “interview” with BYork.
http://www.callingallwingnuts.com/2006/06/09/ykos/
It was a phenomenal panel! The Jane/Reddhedd show has become a real piece of Americana.
Speaking of the CIA Investigation Panel, Jason Leopold is back! What if he’s right? Any thoughts?
DB 130-
This sounds like a great roots project.
Maybe do a local contest and then pool our findings…
Dover Bitch 130 -
I like the “Cable TV” analogy. “Toll Road” is good too (Lessig used them both in his WaPo OpEd the other day). “Chinese style internet” seems illustrative as well.
All we hear is Radio Hutu.
Savage is the worst….bar none.
-GSD
I think it was Matt from MyDD who said at YKos, “If you like dropped calls, you’ll love their new Internet!”
Got home last night from the TRULY AWESOME and HISTORICAL Yearlykos event! Still so tired I can’t even think, but wanted to say THANK YOU to all the wonderful folks at FDL for a great breakfast and a great Plame Panel – it was just riveting! Rockin’ rockin’ job, guys!
Saturday morning we were lost (trying to find our way, bleary-eyed, from one hotel tower to another), hurrying to the FDL breakfast. And, as circumstances would have it, so were Christy and Taylor (I don’t mean bleary-eyed, just hurrying) – so we were lucky enough to get to meet and ride up in the elevator with two of my FDL heroines – OMG – and just like a groupie I could only spit out, “I’m such a fan!” Anyway, both were so nice and gracious and so bright-eyed at 7:30 in the morning after the previous two late night doin’s! Then, the wonderful Pach was greeting everyone as they came in the door so we got to meet him too! Just sorry the breakfast had to be short as we all had to race downstairs to see Howard Dean (great!) at 8:00 a.m.
Anyway, just wanted to say thank you to all the FDLers for a great great time!
Just announced on CBS …. Bush’s approval at 33%. USA/Gallup has him up 2 whopping points to 38% (Gallup always trends high for the Shrub).
Quite the bounce, eh?
Bustednuckles says
June 12th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Please tell me about the following:
What operating system are you using? What browser are you using? What version of Java (www.sun.com) are you using?
Cujo – it is always necessary for people to be able to say that what they are doing is “legal” so the job pool won’t be shrinking. And after SOX and the Bankruptcy Code, how tough can it be to learn Mandarin?
GSD – great link from Larry. I did my “invisible men” slate article quotes below for Rayne to pass on to Levin, but there are so many stories that it boggles your mind how many people still say that “all” the detainees at GITMO are the “worst of the worst” and “taken on the battlefield”.
As to:
Conservative talk host Michael Savage says liberals could turn Zarqawi “into a hero even though he killed thousands of people and was arrested for sexual molestation in Jordan”
Sounds to me like Savage is making him into the hero — after all, he’s attributing the qualities of not one, but two of our two term Presidents to the man.
mommybrain — oop, I just scrolled up and found the responses to your bad news.
I’m so sorry.
Hard to imagine how we’d face this world without all our four-footeds, but for some of us, especially our massas — um, cats. Something tells me that you Brains made every minute of her life with you kitty-delicious. Well done.
MaryAnn @ 4:02 pm(#141) – Looks like he picked up that two percent of the public who think Al Zarqawi really mattered. They’ll be back to watching professional wrestling soon.
I’m also liking the idea of pointing out that the Internet is the only place where a small business has a chance to compete with Wal-Mart.
I think collectively we can come up with some good, brief explanations/analogies. Having a solid message is the first step towards winning this PR battle. Then we’ve got to take it to ‘em.
Busted –
Do you by any chance have a program running which controls scripts? There’s one called “NoScripts,” for instance, which gives page by page control.
Or do you have firewall software with script control settings?
Beyond that thought I’m lost. Last time I was really “up on” computers it was the mid-nineties.
I’d like people to stop dissing myspace,I’m listening to the Roots page podcast as I type this.I’ts just another tool,another way to network,another way to catch some yearly Kos.Really good work Joh!(note;nobody has dissed on this thread,I’m just venting previous angst)Now I’m hearing news on the Lamont campaign.Good stuff!
Roots rocks!
Dover B – your detour to McDonald’s analogy is very good!
OT
Gitmo
http://tinyurl.com/kq24a
Violent terrorists taken on the battlefield – or maybe not.
British Ex-Detanees.
“There is no hope in Guantanamo. The only thing that goes through your mind day after day is how to get justice or how to kill yourself,” Rasul, 29, who waged a hunger strike at the camp to protest alleged beatings, said Saturday. “It is the despair %u2014 not the thought of martyrdom %u2014 that consumes you there.”
. . .
At the camp, the men say they were beaten and saw troops throw Qurans in the toilet. They also say they were forced to watch videotapes of prisoners who had allegedly been ordered to sodomize each other and were chained to a hook in the floor while strobe lights flashed and heavy metal music blared. The allegations, some of which are dramatized in the film, are part of a lawsuit against the United States seeking $10 million each in damages.
Jane @ 115 — Reading those posts, I keep hearing Suicidal Tendencies’ “Institutionalized” in my head. And the misguided, uninvited speculation of top-down media types about “Why are you bloggers so angry?”, etc., etc.
It seems to me that the point of Digby’s post is, the best way to defuse those questions is to simply (and unapologetically) continue doing what we do and being what we are. YKos put the evidence on display, in the flesh and now on video, for those who have the eyes to see it.
We know our hearts are in the right place, and we know we’re getting results, so keep moving forward and let the confused catch up at their own pace.
Dover Bitch, I love the idea of a Net Neutrality brainstorming/analogies thread. Boxer used some good examples in her op-ed recently also, but I’m sure the DFLers can come up with great stuff.
Mary @ 4:03 pm (#143) – SOX?
I think there will be less work out there for lawyers, because the workload per case will go down considerably. Without all those silly details like probable cause, habeus corpus, etc., there won’t be nearly as many motions to file, and every trial will be a short affair.
Now, I may be underestimating how much the intellectual property field may expand over the next few years, but I think that on the whole, workload will decrease.
Leslie in CA 152 -
The Clear Channel vertical integration model is another apt analogy, though maybe many people aren’t fully hip to that evil company.
op99:
Redshift: One of the more low-keyed FDLers; very much worth getting to know, quietly funny (he liberates that more in his comments). Active in VA Dem politics, crappy craps player. Sorry about the sixty bucks.
LOL No problem, it was well worth it.
Dover Bitch — I like it. You want to do it? I’ll email you.
[OT — Sorry if this has been discussed to death elsewhere. No time to read up on earlier threads…]
So Dan Abrams is taking over as General Manager at MSNBC. Any thoughts on what that may suggest for the future of the network?
I don’t watch Dan Abrams’ program, so I don’t have an opinion of him formed.
Sorry folks, I’m stillat work and had to handle something. Using Firefox have Norton on a celeron windows 98.
Jane, Please do. I’d be thrilled.
DMM 149 – I thus retract my earlier gratuitous but gentle chiding about myspace.com wrt my 13 y.o. daughter’s use thereof, which I may have conflated with instant messaging anyway. :~)
Wow,I’m still listening to the podcast-musical pick by-Howie Kline,this is great!
Dan Abrams is all about missing white women and what laws we need to prevent it !
OT w apologies, ditto if already mentioned.
[should not be at keyboard right now, & t’wasn’t free earlier]
Tweetie has not only Murtha (1st part), but Robert Redford (later) on tonight. Both did really well, I thot.
Hope you can catch them, if you have energy left after YKos.
If you can’t, feel restassured they did a whole lotta good, & no harm.
Sidelight: Tweetie didn’t interrupt them! Huh!
Well, I’m back home, and my baby made me dinner.
This almost makes up for the fact that he really enjoyed having the place to himself.
I want the Plame Panel on DVD. I will pay anyone who can burn one for me!
158punaise ,
There’s a lot of unsavory stuff on myspace-but this page is getting really good
http://www.myspace.com/rootsproject
BobbyG @ 4:11 pm (#152) – I was starting to write that blogs and open source software are much alike, and gave up. The important point is that in the case of OSS and blogs, customers and providers who like the proprietary/stovepipe way of doing things don’t appreciate, and in many cases can’t understand, the other way. Blogs and OSS are collaborative methods, and the old news/proprietary software methods use the old seller/customer paradigm. Which is right probably depends on your personality as much as the situation.
*ilson –
Oh well.
Does he want to outlaw the “missing” part, or the “white women” part? Am curious if he wants to make miscegenation mandatory. ;-)
al-Scooter and DMM…thanks for responding. Yep…I’m trying to figure out whether the sharp right turn by MSM (maybe it’s always been this way…same as it ever was) is the result of economics or ideology or both.
If it’s economics, then boycotts and actions with sponsors seem to work for the Right…and we taught ‘em how to do it so…I think we should ramp up. OTOH, I noticed that things started getting really foul during Clinton and abysmally absurd during the 2000 election (Ralph Reed as a talking head? Give me a friggin’ break!!) and has continued down hill since then. Hence, I can barely glance at anything having to do with the big media organs.
If it is the latter, I’m not sure that boycotts, etc. will be sufficient. Of course, it may be both. Whatever. I recognize that this is where people who care about the “news” go to hear it and the fix is definately in. We need some very smart strategies and concerted efforts to start moving things to a more even keel.
Bustednuckles @ 4:13 pm (#157) – Go to Tools/Extensions and then wait for the extenstions page of the Firefox site to appear. NoScript is generally one of the most popular tools.
I feel EPU peeking over my shoulder, but I’m going to dive in anyway to say hello to everyone and thank Digby for this fine post. My son and I are in San Mateo visiting my firstborn who is house/dogsitting here and I literally slept the entire day away yesterday (and I was not gambling or partying in Vegas!). I’ve scanned the threads here a bit and am so happy that so much of the conference has made it online so folks can get a taste of what was up there. But there was much more going on than the politicos and the big names from Corp media in terms of some of the panels and sessions available. I was sitting with scarecrow and BobbyG on Saturday morning listening to Ralph Nees talk about the Supreme Court and scarecrow whispered to me that this was all stuff we already knew, which I repeated to Bobby. He was talking about Alito and the filibuster and Roberts and etc, etc, and it was all the same conversation we have had and taken action on here at firedoglake. And some of the questions from the group in that session were basic, basic, basic, demonstrating to me that what Digby says here is spot in in many ways. We have much to be proud of at FDL.
Read MoDo and Nagourney’s pieces on the plane, too bad they were so limited that they had to write essentially the same thing, since there were at least 1000 stories available to them. Oh, but it was the Editor’s fault, I’m sure.
I appreciate whever it was who heard my interview on DaytoDay on NPR and commented on it; I was able to pass that along to the very nice interviewer who wanted to do a longer piece but didn’t have time.
Glad to be back in the threads and look forward to getting caught up with all of you.
Namaste
zen
I missed seeing the panel on CSPAN on the weekend.(My esteemed partner went to NYC to get kid #1 home for the summer. I was single parenting kid #2, and it’s not easy for an absent minded fool.)
On Saturday, CSPAN promised it and then made it disappear. All the links above go nowhere once you’re into CSPAN.
I feel like I have lost my charter membership in FDL.
Can anyone find it?
Cujo359 says “Mary @ 4:03 pm (#143) – SOX?”
June 12th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
SOX = Sarbanes-Oxley
Pach 165 — welcome home. Ditto, I’d love to have one too.
New Froomkin if you haven’t given him a hit yet. (Love)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00879.html
Alright Cujo – you have put a bit of a job security scare in me after all. ;-)
klevenstein: They aren’t saying they violated FISA, just that they didn’t follow it. Greens with your parse snips? They say they didn’t have to follow it, bc IF they could explain what they are doing (other than the public revelations that have said they are electronically eavesdropping on US citizens on US soil without a warrant and without probable cause and without any involvement of an independent magistrate) that it would become immediately clear that they are not breaking the law.
OTOH, they have also pretty much said that, without looking at what they are doing, the reason they are not breaking the law is that the AUMF gives the president the right, like the light through yon window, to break. Or no, but wait, not the AUMF (pronoumced ooomph)but the “inherent” (or was that implied, or maybe even penumbric?) rights of the Executive, that gives them the right.
See, if we talk about that highly classified stuff, stuff like parts of the CONSTITUION (sshhhh!) then we’ll lose the element of surprise with our enemies.
I have to give them part of their argument – from the way this govt is being conducted, the existence of the Consitution would certainly surprise those who didn’t know about it.
Cujo359 166-
yeah, it depends sometimes, but OSS ultimately has less defects, ’cause there’s a limitless horde of quality-checkers and bug-fixers out there…
netroots is the high-quality form of politics!
Thanks Cujo. Not there. I’ll have my tech guru dig later. It’s a minor inconvenience.
I want the Plame Panel on DVD. I will pay anyone who can burn one for me!
Me, too.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 4:21 pm (#171) – Ah, thanks. IT shops across the country seem to be cursing this act. I can only assume that it will provide more work for lawyers and accountants, although I certainly would like to see corporations more accountable for what they tell their stockholders and employees.
Link to email CSPAN to request they release 2006 YearlyKos Convention on DVD:
viewer@c-span.org
or phone (202) 737-3220
Going through CSPAN accomplishes two things: Makes them aware how popular the event was and allows them to profit from it. Both should encourage them to cover more of our events.
zennurse –
So good to see you! And I’m so glad you were able to go.
Where is this interview whereof you speak? Is it perhaps archived somewhere? [I don’t know that NPR program, guess we don’t get it here.] For those of us who couldn’t go, it would be terrific to hear your voice and your comments on the event.
Jane,
glad to see you safe and back in the poodle pile.
Digby,
always a treat to see your name at the top of the post here – thanks for another well reasoned take on what the hell’s going on
punaise,
as the mother of another 15 year old, I loved your earlier snapshot of myspace patois. and yes, I saw it’s power in the pro immigration rallies, so i’m sure we’ll all get around to utilizing it – do these jeans look ok ?
Abrahms covers the MWW’s because they tend to be the big legal cases. He is fair with his guests.
I don’t know his politics, but his father Floyd is one of the top first amendment lawyers in the country. He also argued the Pentagon Papers case…maybe like father like son.
-GSD
klevenstein @ 4:22 pm (#175) – I’ve worked in both environments, and definitely prefer OSS. It gives the user the ability to control his own destiny, which is always a concern with proprietary software. For me, the breaking point came when I had to figure out how to install a piece of custom software my company had paid thousands of dollars for on a new computer that the operating system the custom software required didn’t support. Took us days to get that working in any sensible form. If either the software or the operating system had been OSS, it probably would have taken a few hours, assuming there wasn’t a patch already available.
I tried to record the Plame Panel yesterday but my DVD recorder fucked up. I was planning to dupe the disc and make it available for all who wanted it (I made 700 copies of F911 in 2004 at no cost) BUT the damn thing didnt take.
CSpan sells DVDs of their programs. Either $20 or $30 for 2 hours. Check the webpages there or call them…
Thank you Stephen. I guess the combo of SOX and Mandarin could get oogly without clarification.
OT more Gitmo.
Here’s the link below to the slate piece
http://tinyurl.com/pr4oe
Here’s an interview with the Chinese Uighurs
http://abcnews.go.com/Internat…..amp;page=1
Funny how, after years, we found a country to take them right when they were getting ready to have their appeal heard. Mooted that appeal.
See Cujo, the Chinese WILL need lawyers after all. To get them out of AMERICAN hellholes. That globalism thing is so nifty.
GSD –
Thanks for that bit of info. It clarifies that he’s probably no airhead. When I first heard “MWW” I thought, oh no, this probably means more shark attacks, too.
Wait a minute — “Floyd Abrams” — that’s the guy who represented the NYT in the Judith Miller matter, right? Whattaya know. Interesting.
AAAhhhhhhh.
long tome, no Marysnark.
Also think I should mention that I am sittin in front on one of those huge TV screens watching Hardball!!! This is zennurse watching Tweety, someone should take a picture. My sons have the TV on constantly, I’m thinking of it as an anthropological experience for myself. So far: commercials are just as stupid as ever. What does dancing in the rain have to do with Pepsi? Pleeease!
ps Redford looks old.
Still OT more Gitmo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02390.html
I brought flowers to the isolation cell when I visited Saddiq this month. He likes to draw roses and often asks for gardening magazines.
Saddiq is one of the many mistakes at Guantanamo Bay. In 2005 our military admitted that he was not an enemy combatant, but the government hasn’t been able to repatriate him. (By a curious irony, Saddiq’s opposition to Osama bin Laden makes him too hot to handle in his native Saudi Arabia.) So he lives behind razor wire in Camp Iguana, with eight other men whom the military cleared long ago but who are nevertheless forbidden newspapers, visits from loved ones, English-language dictionaries — and flowers.
I can burn the Plame panel to DVD for anyone who’d like one.
**HOWEVER** it was recorded on my dvr that used dvd(plus) disks. Not everyone can use those. They play fine in most dvd players, but not all. (how the hell do make a “plus” sign show up? it keeps disappearing, so I typed it out.)
Although, buying them from Cspan would certainly get their attention. Let me know if you’d like one.
theotherwash at yahoo.com
Cujo359 — now there’s an apt analogy, and the most likely possible answer to many of our most vexing current questions.
How can democracies work in a mass society? What is the equivalent of a barn-raising in a country where the dominant institutions are corporate quasi-monopolies? How is it Dick Cheney and his apologists get to define reality and we don’t? Why are our teenagers encyclopedias of cool, but hard pressed to find France on a map? And so on and so forth.
We thought that maybe this Internet thing would help us come up with some practical answers, and lo, some ten or fifteen years after Tim Berners Lee’s timely gift, we seem to have made a good start on it. What wonders will the future bring, eh?
Mrs. K8,
I have some hopes that Abrams will offer some substance..he always seemed to handle those MWW’s with a little more gravitas than Raspy Rita…
-GSD
Mary,
(Snip)
“I brought flowers to the isolation cell when I visited Saddiq this month. He likes to draw roses and often asks for gardening magazines.”
(End)
Sure fits the “worst of the worst” profile.
The entire nation is going to need an enema after these bloody fingered vulgarians are driven from the square.
-GSD
Mrs. K8, I’m so glad to see more than one or two comments from you. I’ve been holding you and Mr. and pupsterK8 in my heart. All I know at this point is that the interview was by Adam Barnes and I think it was a program out of Denver. I can’t stream until I get home, this house is dialup, but I’ll post a link if I can find it. I haven’t heard it yet myself. If anyone can link it, I’d be grateful.
Mommybrain, the universe took your task away from you, it seems, so sorry about your kitty. I think Mr. Luke will do fine.
Here’s the story….
MSNBC names Abrams as new general manager
NEW YORK – NBC News legal correspondent Dan Abrams was put in charge of MSNBC Monday %u2014 and his first move was to take himself off the air there.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..c_abrams_6
In case anyone missed it, Markos’ interview on MTP yesterday is on Crooks and Liars.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..html#a8674
Still GITMO:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01465.html
Courted as spies, held as combatants.
A review of hundreds of pages of documents recently released by the U.S. Department of Defense, a British court and the men’s attorneys illustrates how the U.S., British and Gambian governments worked together in an operation that circumvented their judicial systems and, through a process known as extraordinary rendition, had two men incarcerated who had not been charged with breaking any law.
And
The case has caused a political uproar in Britain. Critics say the documents show the British government has helped place people in Guantanamo, despite its claims that the prison is strictly a U.S. operation.
A parliamentary committee is investigating. “The key issue that certainly concerns me is whether our government, the British government, was involved in something that I would consider to be unlawful,” said Andrew Tyrie, the committee chairman. “I don’t want to live in a country that could be complicit in such abuses.”
Mary and Cujo359 -
You’re welcome.
Cujo359 – how well will Windows 98 and Firefox get along? Didn’t Microsoft at one time provide a Java virtual machine (or something like that) for Windows 98?
With respect to SOX, are you thinking of its impact on publicly traded IT shops?
My dear zen –
No need to trouble yourself looking for it now — I just thought it must be a show with which you’re already familiar.
Surely someone else here knows it and can suggest where to look. After p.t. (where I have to go shortly) I’ll try to google it up, anyhow.
Just enjoy your precious family visit in a leisurely way. I understand about your needing to sleep; travel is tough on folks with pain problems.
While it was a shame it couldn’t be now, I’m still counting on the notion that we shall meet someday. Yes? Two years ago I went to Mass. with Mr. K8 on business — here’s hoping the boss will send him that way again! But even if not, I’m sure something will work out, if only YKos Part Deux.
This is slightly OT, but I don’t think Ms. Cox got the memo on formal shorts from the ladies of Go Fug Yourself.
http://gofugyourself.typepad.c…..rfugk.html
Also, hello, Digby!
Found it, rats, can’t listen till the 20th. Maybe I can download to my kid’s MP3 or something. Anyway FWIW:
npr ykos piece with me! zennurse
mommybrain, so sorry about your loss! We and our pets have each other for such a short time, it just doesn’t seem fair. Your kitty wouldn’t want you to be sad, so it’s OK to remember the good times guilt-free (as if I could take my own advice).
Stephen Parrish, CPA , I just accidently found out my IE has been hacked. I don’t use it. I am going to upgrade it tomorrow to eliminate the hack. Then I will look into other problem . I gotta run, see y’all tomorrow.
GSD – it is sad and abhorrent and disgusting bc it is immoral and evil. It is infuriating bc it diverts so much time, energy, effort and credibility from actually putting together a way to deal with the guys who are the bad guys (some are probably in GITMO, more probably ended up in rendition) and how to get out of untenable positions in the middle east that make more terrorists.
Never should the ultimate plan of reaction have been militarization.
Mary, I’m really tired so need to go back up-thread to fully absorb your and others’ excellence here, so I’ll just slip in that
Greens with your parse snips?
blew my doors off.
Oooooooo, that was good.
Absolutely, MyK8, meanwhile are you up to an e-mail in a day or so?
I’d enjoy my family if they were awake, but they’re both passed out boys right now!!
What John in sacramento said at 2:56pm — this is a horrible situation, really needs far greater attention than it is getting. These folks are completely doing away with the rule of law, and people like Charles Grapski are catching the very worst part of it.
Grapski can use what ever help you can offer — and media attention would be just as helpful as monetary and spiritual support.
Would love to have Christy look at this situation and give her opinion from the perspective of a former prosecutor.
zennurse and Mrs. K8 – I have a 4 minute, 1mb mp3 of the Day-to-Day segment with zennurse. (The one with Adam Burke, right?)
I’ve had trouble e-mailing large (for dial-up) attachments in the past, but if you’d like me to try, I’d be happy to send it to you. Maybe Jane could hook us up?
William Timberman @ 4:34 pm (#190) – The great thing about this medium is that it can be used to bring folks together from all over the world who have an interest or passion for a particular topic. There are groups of people, for instance, who are implementing a free version of MS-DOS 6.2 called FreeDOS. If you follow that link you realize that the software development, website maintenance, and documentation are all performed by volunteers (the latter using a Wiki, one of the best tools for documentation since troff). It’s a free version of an OS (if one can even call it an OS) that hasn’t been sold in at least a decade. Yet, they’ve managed to find enough people to make this project work. I use it occasionally when I need to run hardware setup software.
So, yes, there are all sorts barn-raisings out there, and not just for software. These tools are easy enough to use now that folks who know nothing about software can use them. I don’t have any idea what the future of news organizations will look like, but I think if the traditional news organizations don’t learn to use the Internet, they will be left behind.
JWR, that’s the one, but I think I can just stream it from the site linked above. I just can’t listen until I get back on DSL, or find an Internet cafe or something.
But thanks so much.
OT – via Atrios, Edward Wasserman at the Miami Herald has some good words on the Wen Ho Lee case and confidentiality:
Amen, and amen.
digby (35) — no, unfortunately YearlyKos was not the first online conference; last year’s Online Social Networks conference may have been. Unlike YKos, a considerable portion of the conference was virtual and NOT in a physical venue. I’d really like to see next year’s YKos morph into something between the two, and for us as bloggers to consider podcasting and streaming-to-file much more of the event.
Cujo359 (167) — I think you’re really searching for Eric Raymond’s The Cathedral and the Bazaar analogy; we are not a top-down, centralized community, like a cathedral, mirrored in corporate media. We are more like the bazaar, where people gather to bring their own ideas and content to a central place for the purposes of sharing and enriching, but not necessarily excluding the existence of the cathedral at the end of the public square. So it is with open source software, too.
Cujo and all, was talking to my son this am about net neutrality and he said that even if the telecos push through thier powermadness, there’s no way the geeks and hackers will let it stand and they will just hack right around it and bring everyone with them who wants to come. I have no clue, but I agree they’ll be challenged to try.
DMM – thanks for the kudos on the Roots Project Update podcast! I had a great time interviewing Liz from Ned Lamont’s campaign and Howie Klein always has the best music. He’s gonna join the podcast in the next few weeks once he upgrades his technology to do so.
I’m working on some other fun stuff for the next one too. If anyone wants to check it out the Gcast page where it is hosted is at http://www.gcast.com/u/finifinito/rootsproject. Or you can find it via the flash player on our MySpace page at http://www.myspace.com/rootsproject.
zen–v cool to hear your voice!
YKos will be discussed on Countdown.
YKos coverage coming up on Countdown. (Brian instead of Keith tonight.)
Digby- I love the story about the cat and the black bear on your site. I am a reader but not a blogger on your site and I visit it often. Thanks for all that you do.
YKos on “Countdown”
Alert!
Keith isn’t there, but his substitute on Countdown is going to do a story on Yearlykos! Any minute now!
The highlight of the earlier Jane-Margaret exchange now may be found at Wolcott:
http://jameswolcott.com/archiv…..ds_and.php
…along with the usually pithy observations.
I do love Jame Wolcott. Especially when he writes about YKOS and the Plame panel. ;)
http://jameswolcott.com/archiv…..ds_and.php
mommybrain
I am very sorry to hear about the loss of your cat. We have five in our household, and to date have not had to experience any deaths, but I know eventually we will. Cats can be such good friends.
When I got back from Las Vegas yesterday, the one of our cats who is specifically “mine” pointedly ignored me for about 12 hours, making sure I understood she was not pleased about me being AWOL for four days. But this afternoon she has gone back to being her affectionate self.
I hope your family finds another cat whom you all can love.
Cujo359 @ June 12th, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Yes, that’s the larger promise that I see in the open-source phenomenon — a mutually-determined reality which begins in virtual space, but also links our activities in the real world. A participatory end to the all-consuming irony and alienation which are the twin plagues of post-industrial culture. Or to put it in simpler terms, a way out of the maze.
New thread
Wolcott – Was “coyetes” meant to be “coyotes” or “coyettes” possibly, or have I just generally missed the target, shaft and all?
I’ll keep checking if cspan will provide dvd (emailed them about it)..just thought a dvd offering would be a good way to raise funds to put on 2007 convention.
Tough when pets go. Our only kitty now is 17, slowed down but healthy, just not interested in mouse catching this summer. She is a beautiful gray & white longhair lap lover, esp when someone is sitting at the computer.
What is up with this big old WH slush fund? When is enough, enough for this mob? Dumb question.
Digby, what a pleasure to read you here. Thank you! I guess when one’s journalistic judgment is calibrated on the cocktail circuit, the tendency is to assume that everyone else must share the aspiration to best-quality weenies and nothing but.
That thing that Al Gore said about Bush–that he seems completely devoid of curiosity–applies to the corporate media and punditry in spades. It’s amazing.
I stopped short at the phrase “smart hot women.” Hot as in sexually exciting? Is that the level of discourse? Is this kind of objectification considered acceptable?
Someone at feminista.com asked whether the term “hot” was okay to use and got two good responses:
“Any terms that sexually objectify a woman are questionable, as they reduce her to an object of the male gaze.”
“The use of the word “hot” ties directly into this mindset … that it is men’s god-given right to comment upon and objectify any woman, any time, any where, and there’s not a damn thing she can do about it. I’ve seen this proved to be true many, many times, with myself and other women.”
http://www.feminista.com/board…..ffc15df0f5
zen & JWR –
Oh goody! Thanks to you both!
Will have to listen after p.t., though, and then the Mr. & Mrs. K8 & Tandy household dinner. Gotta run shortly. Something to look forward to late tonight!
And zen –
Yes to the email. Finally I’m able to say that! — We had a fried hard drive. Had to go out and get a new one, and then start the painstaking process of loading all the software, the settings, then hoping against hope to be able to recover some stuff, at least.
Finally found a great recovery program, and we were able to rescue most things. For a while I had no record of any past email, and no addresses stored anywhere! I was a bit panicked for quite a while, but we got the address book back from the dead drive, intact (looks that way so far, anyway).
Shall I write you first? Are you using the same address as last time?
OK, off to the p.t. session. Will check back later.
neuro 224, in the old days when I would go on a business trip one of my bunnies would actually turn her back on me when I came home. She would wait until the next day to forgive me :)
new thread
We’re really on the cusp of a cultural shift, one that we’re not articulating well because we haven’t really thought it out completely.
I think I’ve said this another thread, might have been lost to the EPU zone (as this comment may well be) — but we are flirting with the notion that information is a fundamental human right, and as such, cannot be restricted by corporate interests (the few) at the expense of citizens’ ease of access (the many).
In terms all our techiest, geekiest will find soothing: the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. This is the real value underpinning the entire Net Neutrality issue. Our needs — not wants — are fundamentally greater and more important than the needs — possibly wants — of corporate interests desiring greater profitability. Therefore our needs for freedom of information movement are imperative and should be protected from the tyranny of the few.
Perhaps one of the challenges we’ve not dealt with is bandwidth and pipeline; the American public licenses its radio and television bandwidth because these commons belong to the American public, not to the broadcasters. Broadcasters are permitted to use these commons only as specified by the American people, at a fee, and only in what should be our best interests, not against us. Why is any other form of telecommunications bandwidth/pipeline/access viewed differently? Why are we not pushing back at the telcos and explaining to them if they cannot serve the greater good in a fair and equitable manner that we’ll find some other entity that can?
South American countries have already institutionalized the concept of information as a human right in their policies, legislation and platforms. It is this concept that moved Venezuela to require by law that the government only use open source technology, so that all of its citizens would have access to information without barriers dictated by corporations. While I don’t subscribe to this concept, I do subscribe to the notion that the movement of information is as critical to our well-being. Our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness being dependent on information. It is essential to the effectiveness of a free market system that all entrants have access to knowledge as close to perfect as possible, in order to make completely informed decisions. Bottling up any portion of information and controlling its flow is in direct contravention to a free market. Free, as in liberty, able to move freely without restriction.
Perhaps we need to reframe the entire discussion and make it one about the free market and human rights.
just ran off to wolcott and now comments go from 160 to 230, that’s wierd?
Breaking news–YKOS coverage featuring Markos is coming up on Countdown after the next commercial.
I think Jane wath really pithed off.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 4:44 pm (#197) – I haven’t tried running Firefox on Windows, so I cannot personally attest one way or the other. Here are the minimum requirements for running Firefox on Windows from the Firefox system requirements page:
My guess is that it would work better with Win 98 than with Win ME, but that’s really just a guess based on limited experience with the two OSs, none of which involved Firefox.
In practice, 64 MBytes will work, but very slowly, and you’ll probably find that videos don’t work very well with so little RAM. You probably will need more CPU if you want to see videos, my guess would be a 600 MHz Celeron, minimum.
Most folks who are using Win 98 these days are running it on slow systems, and ususally they’re slow systems that don’t have much RAM. Firefox tends to require more RAM because it doesn’t use as much of the Windows software that’s already resident in memory compared with Internet Explorer.
On the subject of plugins, I can’t say. I hardly ever go to sites that require Java, so am not usually concerned with that. Javascript will work whether you have a Java VM or not. That is implemented in the browser. If your CPU is too slow, most of the other plugins probably won’t be useful, anyway.
On the SOX front ;-), I’m pretty sure the IT shops in question were for publicly traded stocks, but I honestly don’t remember. My interest level in IT is fairly low. I’ve mostly done network, systems, and scientific programming. But what I’ve read indicates that there was a considerable effort involved in making some companies SOX compliant. I just entered the string “Sarbanes-Oxley IT software compliance” and came up with numerous sites about products and processes. This might be the best one, since it’s for test software to ensure that your SOX software works properly:
http://www.metricstream.com/products/sarboxly.htm
Anyway, I think the overriding concern has been being able to provide sufficient auditing of all significant transactions, whatever that means to accounting types. In the long run, this may be one of those processes that can benefit companies if they actually embrace the philosophy behind them, but I don’t suppose those companies were the ones that were likely to be a problem to begin with.
Well, any more links and my comment will be put in jail.
zennurse @ 4:59 pm (#212) – You son is probably right, at least in the long run and provided no other things are done to screw up the Net. In fact, the Internet Protocol, which all packets going over the Internet, tends to route around things that are slow. It views such things as damage to the network, which it was designed to work around.
Unfortunately, there’s a tremendous cost associated with reliable long distance links, and if the telcos decide to be jerks it will be years before we can undo that.
al-Scooter — bwa-hahahah!!! Damn that Wolcott, makes my face hurt from laughing!! crimson reward…[snort!]
zennurse @ June 12th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
If you’re using Safari on a Mac, it seems to be a rendering bug; hitting the refresh button once or twice usually clears it up.
If you’re into installing software, Camino, available online for free, looks as nice as Safari, but doesn’t seem to suffer from this particular bug. It will also import bookmarks from other browsers, so you could switch to it fairly easily.
Rayne @ 5:15 pm (#232) – To my way of thinking, information as a basic human right was guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution. It guaranteed freedom of speech and freedom of the press, which were the information transfer technologies of the time. It doesn’t say that I deserve a broadband connection, but it certainly seems to imply that the information on this network ought to be available equally, at least within the limits of the technology and our budgets.
How far we want to carry that thought is another matter, as is how far we can, but I think that Ben Franklin’s printing presses got us started on the road to net nuetrality, whether he intended to or not.
my 5:22 pm (#237) – In the long run, this may be one of those processes that can benefit companies if they actually embrace the philosophy behind them, but I don’t suppose those companies were the ones that were likely to be a problem to begin with.
I suppose I should add that there was similar kvetching when ISO 9001 came along. Yet, in the end many companies’ processes actually have been improved, including one I used to work for.
Thanks, TheOtherWa, for the Wolcott link.
The reason I lurk here is Jane’s way with words. Little did I know she was a fabulous babe, to boot.
And it’s a shame about Wonkette- it’s been awhile, but I used to check her blog regularly for snark content.
She was never in a league with Jane Hamscher, though.
My own take on it is- she’s traded her spot on a red hot minor league team for a shot in the bigs with a team on the decline.
And she’s already striking out.
You have now entered the EPU zone…..
Cujo359 (242) — You’re right, it’s the First Amendment that is the cornerstone of the “information as a human right” concept; but just as we cannot have a state religion, we cannot have a state press, either. We must agree on a methodology by which we take a poorly defined commons and agree to a method of equitable sharing.
If a telco lays down line and installs infrastructure, they will argue that the line is theirs and that usage is determined by private contract, ditto for the cable provider. How do we appropriate privately-funded resources and demand neutral access? In some respects, the answer is not purely a First Amendment issue but also antitrust; the telcos are demanding a form of lock-in, restricting the free flow of information.
As zennurse’s son said, geeks and hackers will try a work-around, but at least one geek’s technology has already been suffocated by the telsatcos (with the help of that backstabbing bitch-on-wheels, Babs Comstock). We should already have pervasive wireless technology that would need no cabling, but for the telsatcos’ deliberate effort to obliterate competition. Antitrust rears its head, thwarting the people’s exercise of their First Amendment rights. At what point will we actually demand EVERY member of Congress stop supporting antitrust and start supporting a free market, while enabling the people’s exercise of free speech and press?
Cujo359 says
June 12th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
Thank you very much for your reply. I’m running Windows XP (service pack 2). I asked about Windows 98 because that’s what Bustednuckles is using, according to one of his posts upthread.
Stephen Parrish, CPA at 4:44 pm
EPU’d or not.. I’m running Windows98SE on a P4 with 512K ram and an early release of Firefox, for which there does seem to be a Sun Java VM available. (I’ve just been too lazy to bother downloading it.) For the most part the system works well, with limitations arising from not being able to install any software not supporting such an old OS.
I see I missed part of the conversation, so I guess my last comment was for you, Bustedknuckles.
Mommybrain, so sorry about the kitty.
Thank you Digby (best writer ever).
I want you to know that I cried for two days solid – watching YKos and reading posts online. Sadly, I paid money I don’t have to have the AAR link. That sucked.
One positive analysis of my response might be that big change can feel like failure as past constructs fall away and new ones begin to take focus. It’s happening!
My heart is still feeling such overwhelming emotion.
As zennurse’s son said, geeks and hackers will try a work-around,
You’ve already made one of my arguments for me, which is that if the government is determined to make content providers pay to be on the Internet, they can. All they have to do is change the regulations a little, and we’re there.
My other point is that it’s fairly easy to create a wireless network in an urban area. It’s another to maintain long links using wireless. Wireless is vulnerable to many forms of outage that cable, particularly fiber cable, is not. It’s a good short term solution, but it’s a high maintenance endeavor.
IMHO, we just can’t allow this concept to get this far. It will take years to rebuild the Internet if they do this, and it may take decades to sort out all the interconnections to get back to the point we’re at now. The telecoms aren’t owed a living. They can make good money if they don’t overbuild, which has been one of their problems. They also must avoid mismanagement, which I suspect is another of their problems. I pay for my bandwidth, and Jane pays for hers. Neither of us is getting a “free ride”. If they’re not getting enough from their fees, they should raise them.
Jenny from the blog at 54ish,
I got the same feeling you did about Waas.
Endearing guy. A trooper, coming to the panel with a bad cold, being sharp and funny and still being nice to ol’ Byron.
As a lurker,I found Vegas beyond any anticipation. Much to my surprise about 1/4 of the attendees were either lurkers or wallflowers.
The FDL group was professional and very open to the public. They gave freely of their time and ideas.
The subject of Blog hierarchy led to an informal survey between a few attendees Sat night. The questions were:
How many newspapers do you read on line daily?
Low 3 High 14
How many political blogs do you read daily?
Low 4 High 8
How many other blogs do you read daily?
Low 3 High 10
What would you do if Kos pulled the plug tomorrow? Composite answer:
Spend more time on FDL, Digby, TPM etc.
The only way there can be a true hierarchy is if there is limited access, (Broadcast Networks, Major Market Newspapers) but going back to the fundamentals of the net, since there is no there, then there is no hierarchy.
New voices are always springing up and people will gravitate to sites they like. There is no gate keeper on ideas. Popularity is fleeting, tomorrow’s Kos may only have 5 readers today but there is no limit to success. It’s all about ideas.
op99
Thanks for the rave review. I was worried I would destroy peoples’ high expectations of me. (I think I sound better in writing than in person. Kind of like how some bands are crappy when you go see them live.)
I have to say, talking to emptywheel is intimidating in that, for me anyhow, I knew I was intellectually outmatched. She is super sharp and nothing short of brilliant.
Mostly on-topic: some great photos from YearlyKos at Flickr; my favorites are by B.G. Roberts, who has a great eye for on-the-fly portraiture. The gang’s all there (as is AdNags, shown on the floor). Go here for Roberts’ set, and leave an appreciative comment if you have time.
I’m signed on! Past time for something I can believe in again. Age 72, and mad and kicking, and ready to lock ‘n’ load if it comes to that, and without this movement, I think it just might. Keep on keepin’ on!!
Just thought I’d bring this up…..
It’s kind of like finding that author that Holden Caulfield was looking for .
You know, the one he wanted to call up after he finished reading one of their books.
Well, that’s sort of what FDL is like after you finish reading one of the fabulous posts.
And then you call up the author with your comment, and, well…..the conversation starts.
.
Coulter coincidentally failed to mention the NUMEROUS occassions on which the President himself has USED other 9/11 widows as props in his own political ploys.
Speaking of the Devil:
Ann Coulter is a war profiteer. Her celebrity is derived solely from the grief of others.
November 10, 2001
Just two months after 9/11…
Royal Caribbean’s then-new vessel, “Adventure of the Seas,” arrived at 10:00 a.m. today at New York harbor, making her the first major passenger ship to return to the harbor since the tragic September 11 terrorist attacks.
The 142,000-ton ship will be officially named by representatives from the Fire Department of New York and New York Police Department in a ceremony on the ship at Pier 88 at 5 p.m. today. Representing the firemen and police officers who saved so many lives and lost their own in the collapse of World Trade Center towers are Maggie McDonnell, widow of Police Officer Brian McDonnell; Tara Stackpole, widow of firefighter Captain Timothy Stackpole; fireman Kevin Hannafin, who lost his brother, firefighter Tom Hannafin; and Sgt. Richard Lucas of the NYPD Harbor Unit, which assisted rescuers. Approximately 2,000 police and firemen’s family members will join the four godparents and Mayor Giuliani for the naming ceremony. The families will then sail on a special two-night tribute cruise. Royal Caribbean will also make a $50,000 contribution to the Twin Towers Relief Fund.
ANN COULTER WAS NOT ONBOARD…
2000 damaged souls met, many for the first time (mostly widows and their children), to grieve together on a two day “cruise to nowhere” courtesy of Royal Caribbean.
On that cruise, many stories were shared and many tears were shed over late-night drinks at the bar. The images of children at play, many laughing for the first time in two months, were muted by the fact that most were wearing their father’s fire hat or police hat – in memoriam.
The “Formal Dinner” included wives of the fallen in formal gowns, accessorized by their husband’s oversized dress blue service jacket. Their “dates” were their children, each wearing a piece of the Father’s former uniform %u2013 some so big they hung to the floor.
Ms. Coulter wasn’t on that ship for those two days.
She wasn’t there the morning they returned to port, only to learn that an American Airlines jet had just fallen out of the sky and landed in their own neighborhood. She doesn’t know that they were forced to scurry off that ship so that it could be put back out to sea – as it was determined to be a terror target that morning. She wasn’t there when they arrived back to their neighborhoods in time to see the smoldering wreckage of yet another American Airlines plane.
Ms. Coulter wasn’t there to see the terror come back into their lives after that two day respite.
Ms. Coulter is simply a media whore and a war profiteer.
She is the perfect spokesperson for this administration.
Keep speaking out Ms. Coulter.
You define yourself and your affiliations every time you do.
You know, I’ll tell you the truth. I was a bit skeezed out by the whole idea of the Kos blog becoming a convention. But after seeing some pics and thinking and reading on the subject, I may consider attending the next one. Mostly because Jane is a hottie. But I’m sure there are other bonuses to being there. I mean I imagine there would have to be.
Add me to the people disturbed by Digby applauding the “drooling” over Jane and Christy, who were not only smart, but “hot.”
I’ve always enjoyed Digby’s passionate articulation of liberal viewpoints – but suddenly he’s got a blind spot, completely unaware on women’s issues. Smart and influential females relegated into the demeaning “babe” category – pigeon-holed as less-deserving of respect.I think this is something the blogosphere needs to talk about. Maybe both sides could learn what it takes to get people to consider a different viewpoint. And to keep this relevant – that is something we’ll need when try to build a larger political movement. If we can’t even work out our own differences, how are we going to attract swing voters?It’s not enough to say smugly that Atrios, Kos, and Digby “just don’t get it.” Let’s talk.
calvin, in response to Ms. Hamsher’s observation that the real stars of YK were the people who paid to be there, says: Please read DarkSyde’s “Sold Out” diary on today’s dkos. He highlights one of the real stars. calvin isn’t given to hyperbole, but this post was awesome. Not because of who wrote it (even tho he is good), but rather because of the message.
calvin likes the company he is keeping. It’s almost enough to give up his Garfield-like behavior. Almost. Because being a cat means never having to say you’re sorry. Hey, it’s a cat thing.