
Ok, let’s say I’m the ruler of Iran. The world’s only superpower has listed me as a member of an "axis of evil." Two other countries share that distinction. One, right on my border, had no nuclear deterrents, and was overrun with U. S. forces, its government deposed. The other, with a nuclear deterrent and a ruler who acts crazy enough to make people want to leave him alone, is left alone. What’s more, the U. S. has invaded another of my neighbors, formerly governed by a religious party, and has installed a new government there. They also lacked a nuclear deterrent. Hmmmm. . .
I come from a religious party, and while we have national support, a whole generation of young people in my country are not so crazy about us. They make up an overwhelming proportion of our country. But I’m in luck: despite their modestly pro-Western sympathies, the U. S. has lost an incredible amount of international goodwill, trust and support for invading my neighbor. The U. S. has essentially declared nationalist military power to be the current global order, as opposed to treaties and international law, and the result is most of the world sees the greatest threat to world stability as the United States itself.
This has been very good for me. While the U. S. is bogged down in my neighboring country, it’s in my interests to keep them bogged down there a while. If the U. S. withdraws quickly, conditions in Iraq could destabilize and draw me into a sectarian civil war. That would be very expensive, and probably unpopular at home. We fought a long war with Iraq back in the day, and it was costly and bloody. Better to let the U. S. grind its military down in Iraq. That way, its ground forces grow weaker and cannot take action against my country. My goal is to provide enough destabilization in Iraq to bleed the U. S. for as long as possible, without prompting a pullout.
The best way to promote my own security is to pursue a nuclear deterrent, but not so openly that I shift the balance of world opinion against me. I need to thread the needle. At the same time, if I can provoke the U. S. to drop some bombs on my country, this will further solidify international goodwill against the U. S., accruing to my benefit. What’s more, keeping the U. S. acting like an international belligerent drunk bolsters my support at home: the young people more sympathetic to the West rally to the nation when it’s threatened. And as the U. S. talks about supporting dissenters in my country, dissenters lose domestic support and power. That makes me more secure. What’s more, if the U. S. attacks us, we can bog down the Straight of Hormuz due to our geographic advantages, crippling the world’s and the U. S. oil supply. Even without a nuclear deterrent, in the short term, we have a lot of leverage over the U. S. Things are working out rather nicely.
The worst thing for me would be if the U. S. acted less like a belligerent drunk and became more magnanimous in its cooperation with its traditional allies. The U. S. has built up a huge store of ill will in the last five and a half years, and that won’t evaporate overnight, but as long as Bush and the Republicans are in power, I have little risk that the U. S. will pursue a more sober international policy. My domestic situation is likely to be secure as long as Bush and his party remain in charge. And since they justified their attack against Iraq based on lies, claims they make about me will be widelydiscounted.
Still, the U. S. is trying to make a play for international support through its new negotiating ploy, but that will fail. Indeed, it was designed to fail: the terms of the deal offered to me are not serious. They would require that my country essentially renounce the pursuit of nuclear development designed for peaceful energy use, a clear violation of the Nuclear No-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). The international community already recognizes this, so the U. S. has made a hollow offer designed to fail, as a prelude to bombing. A transparently cynical maneuver, if anything, this "offer" has strengthened my hand. Cheney and his people still run the show, and that’s good for me. They’re just trying to shore up their own domestic support for their militaristic plans, as their domestic political support has imploded. So, I should pretend to consider this proposal for a while, to keep up appearances, before rejecting it out of hand as irresponsible. That keeps up my image on the international front while strengthening the Bush/Cheney regime.
Sigh.
Okay. . . let me look at this from the American perspective again:
The Republicans have clearly weakened the United States, making us a rogue superpower on the international stage. Even our allies see the need to limit our power to prevent us from destabilizing the world order even further, as we have totally screwed up the world’s geopolitical powder keg in the Middle East. We cannot achieve our international goals through unilateral military power, and yet our so-called leadership does not recognize, at all, the limits of military power. Meanwhile, our ports are not secure, we mint new multi-generational enemies every day through our brutal tactics against civilians and civilian populations, we’re spending ourselves into an insane amount of debt to support our imperialistic pretensions and our military is near the point of collapse. Oh, and how ’bout those loose nukes?
The truth is inescapable: there is no strengh or security to be had through Republican leadership, period. The Republicans are not the party of strength and security. They are the party of weakness and failure.
Oh, and by the way: it’s a very good idea to become a regular reader of retired U. S. Navy Commander Jeff Huber at his blog, Pen and Sword. Bookmark him. You’ll thank me.
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Xerxes!
Darius!
Fitzy!
YOU BEAT ME! FITZ!
Excellent post Pacha ;)
OT – I did FMA petitions yesterday, but I came across another and it has a list of supporters for the FMA – And a nice twist:
http://www.progressnowaction.o…..lityPledge
Go Teddy!
Standing up for gay families–they do exist!
Excellent post, Pach – I’m a big fan of “playing the black pieces”-style arguments, and you did that very, very well.
You left out the fact that the leaders of both countries are both seemingly bat-shit crazy.
Well done, Pach. On NPR/International last night, there was a discussion that concluded that the Rice initiative to offer-to-talk, but-only-if was little more than a cover for the fact that the two pillars of the Bush policies have failed: (1) use military force to enhance strategic interests in the middle east and (2) replace unfriendly regimes through force in the guise of erecting open democracies friendly to the west. The administration never expected to get bogged down in Iraq, and now can’t get out, and in the meantime, sits in a weakened position wrt to the rest of the region, including Iran. The rest of the world understands these failures; only the US is still under the illusion that “staying the course” might work, if we “stay” long enough.
The Administration is probably not smart enough, let alone honest enough, to recognize and acknowledge it has failed, and this self deception will just get it further into the quagmire.
more great work, Pach. good role-playing. it’s as if you walked a mile in his shahs.
I only know of one leader who is bat-sh*t crazy and he be ours.
Dayton is giving a humdinger of a speech:
I have no respect for those that reach into their emotional cesspools and hurl their slime…
While the U. S. is bogged down in my neighboring country, it’s in my interests to keep them bogged down there a while. If the U. S. withdraws quickly, conditions in Iraq could destabilize and draw me into a sectarian civil war. That would be very expensive, and probably unpopular at home.
Hmmm….perhaps, but I’m not entirely convinced. Aren’t I (Iran) already involved in a sectarian civil war? Can’t you make the case that Iraq’s Shias are a proxy state for Iran? If the U.S. withdraws, Iran’s power in/over Iraq solidifies.
Just the other day my Dad told me that “we have a problem in Iran.” I said no, we didn’t, but there is a psy-ops problem stateside. Not sure he believed me, or was patiently letting his liberal son vent. Again.
Pach,
I really liked that. It’s a nice tight analysis.It holds together well, too.
The only thought I had was that Iran would probably be fairly well-disposed toward a U.S. withdrawal now that we’ve completely defanged the Iraqi military. It is not completely incomprehensible that Iran could annex or at least have fealty over southern Iraq where the vast majority of the population is Shiia. Most of the oil is there and nobody in the neighborhood besides the U.S. could raise more than an eyebrow of dissent.
GW Clusterfuck- the President from Hell- brings in a 36% JAR in the latest Gallup poll.
Goopers are overjoyed- “He’s bouncing back- he’s recovering- people are starting to love him again” until the next poll.
Lobstergirl: Right now Iran has some operatives in Iran, but the civil war is not one of militias in set peice, full on battles. That’s because the U. S. will currently use its power to prevent open battles from occuring, which is about the only thing U. S. military power can do at this point.
But if we withdraw, there will be such battles, and Iraqi Shia will want real military support frmo Iran. That pulls the Iranian army into the quagmire – something the Iranians would like to avoid.
There’s no reason to think that GW Clusterfuck won’t fuck up Iran like everything else. There’s another important point- IT’S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO ALLOW IRAN TO HAVE NUKES.
Another thing is that American saber rattling against Iran keeps oil prices high, helping them and hurting us.
The Iranian strategy could also be described as talk and balk. They keep negotiations open but ensure that they don’t lead anywhere. One of the reasons that they are talking now is that they are in transitional phase of their program. They use a small experimental centifuge array to do some limited uranium enrichment. Now they have to gear up to put together and test a functional cascade. They also have to improve their production capacity and quality control for the gaseous uranium hexafluoride to be used in the cascade. Since nothing much is going on for the moment, why not talk?
Spin this, Fustercluck: Baghdad sees deadliest month since war began
(cnn.com frontpage headline)
Iraqi Shia want support from Iran but don’t want to become part of Iran. They want their own sovereignty. Therein lies the rub. And the Sunni, while a minority, can keep a war going for quite a while, using asymetrical warfare tactics – the same ones they currently use against us.
Plus, the Sunni would likely be well supplied by fellow Sunni’s in Saudi Arabia, in the event of a full scale civil war. Such support comes today over the Syrian border a bit below the radar.
Or, the thinking could be:
We are going to need a lot of power to run our oil export industry which is going to increase exponentially in the coming years. The easiest/safest/most efficient way of having so much power is to do it with nuclear energy. Legally, we are allowed to do that, so what’s the problem?
The US is very afraid that the big Iranian oil market is going to be moving east and north and not west. As long as they can make up claims about how Iran wants weapons (they don’t! they want peaceful energy!), its a game they know how to play. If the talk is about verification (power good, weapons bad) instead of enrichment, we can make some headway. So, lets start talking like that.
The excretale Mark Levin weighs in on Fitzgerald too. Is something happening on Plame?
http://levin.nationalreview.co…..FmOTQzZWQ=
I love this quote:
“And as my friend and former boss, Ed Meese, has said, once Fitzgerald determined that Libby was not Bob Novak’s source%u2014as it was Novak’s column that apparently first disclosed Plame’s identity%u2014that should have been the end of the investigation. After all, Libby wasn’t Novak’s source, and Fitzgerald has concluded that Plame’s classified status (if she had one) is of no consequence. What’s left?”
Well, at least lying, pergury and obstruction of justice. But apparently the right no longer cares about the rule of law, since they seem content to let these crimes go unpunished and the Constitution be subverted by Bush.
Just a reminder that Ahmadinejad is not the decider in Iran. The Ayatolah (sp?) is their grand decider. Therefore, our wacky blowhard has more power (decidering capabilities) than their wacky blowhard. But, at least they’re all getting their orders from God. That makes me feel good, but I believe in fairies. By that, I mean that fairies exist.
It is important to note that the Persian majority in Iran has poor relations with most of its minorities. In particular, the Arab population of the oil rich Khuzistan is restive and disgruntled. While there is a case to be made for Shia solidarity at the moment while there is an attack threat to Shias in Iraq, the likelihood is that in the long term Arab-Persian frictions will reassert themselves. Remember China was a major ally of Vietnam during the Vietnam War but that they fought a brief bloody border war within a few years of its conclusion.
OT
TPMMuckraker’s got a bit more on Jefferson:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000829.php
“So when the FBI raided Abubakar’s home on August 3rd, they were expecting to find the leather briefcase with the $100,000. But instead the money turned up in Jefferson’s freezer at his Washington home. And $10,000 of it was gone.
So what happened? Did Jefferson double-cross Mody? Or was it all a big misunderstanding?
The answer is important: it’s the difference between a corrupt congressman and an incredibly corrupt congressman.
“
Good article. I especially like the big point: the whole national security package the Republicans have offered us is a wrongheaded disaster, with the failed Iraq and guaranteed-to-fail Iran policies as only the most visible examples.
Khamenei is the Supreme leader in Iran. While Ahmadinejad is a goof, Khamenei is no moderate.
OT to lhp: I had a quick story for you re your 189/last thread (left it back there, when you have a minute).
anon @22 (I’m quoting Levin here):
And Fitzgerald has since told the court that Plame’s classified status is not relevant to the case. Of course, Plame’s alleged classified status, and the revelation of that status, was the catalyst for the investigation in the first place.
Huh? Has Fitz really said her classified status is not relevant? I thought what he said was that he was not stating that she was covert, and he wasn’t saying she wasn’t either.
Fitzgerald has used that authority to take the Justice Department in a direction it has never pursued in the past, i.e., to compel testimony from a significant number of reporters about their sources and confidential discussions. This is a policy that should be set by the executive branch after much deliberation, not by a single special prosecutor.
I call bullshit! This is not a policy set by a special prosecutor. It went all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court agreed with the lower court, which said Fitz had more than met the standard required to compel testimony.
A belated OT thanks to all for the kind words long on my comments earlier that Christy picked up and front-paged this morning. As things would have it, today was a long promised and once delayed (due to illness) dad-and-kid trip to “the little farm” in a nearby park, so as soon as Christy pulled up my comments, I had to leave to go feed the critters!
It made for a very odd morning, feeding celery to the goats and explaining to my son that no, we shouldn’t step on the banana slug on the trail, just walk around it – all the while wondering what you all were saying around here at FDL. As it was, I seemed to be channeling you all anyway, at least in my head . . .
cows munching their cud . . . legal fiction from the WSJ . . .
banana slug crossing the trail . . . what’s Rover up to today? . . .
large piles of cow manure . . . Irving must be steaming . . .
seven three-week old piglets getting their mid-morning snack from momma . . . White House steno-corps lapping up their latest from the Snowman . . .
Like I said, it was an odd morning, a very odd morning.
Then I get back, and find that delicious picture/poster from a slightly different Chicken ranch, and the happy snark to match it.
Ah, home. Thanks, all!
Our circumstance is simple in its origin:
We were gonna quickly Shock & Awe the entire region into compliance by our Iraq blitzkrieg. SO persuaded of their own strategic and tactical brilliance were Cheney and the Play President et al that they NEVER entertained any fallback alternative planning.
We now stand exposed as inept militarily vulnerable, the opposite of what was intended. Yeah, our enemies are REALLY scared of us now.
Heck of job, GeeW.
“…the U.S. acting like an international belligerent drunk…”
Too true.
China has had horrible relations with Vietnam, but had a long enough history of bad relations to know when to back off (e.g. “the Vietnamese are fierce”). The MidEast is more fractious. That makes it much worse in terms of pure humanitarian concern.
IT’S NOT A GOOD IDEA TO ALLOW IRAN TO HAVE NUKES.
I agree but unfortunately I think we may have passed the point where we could do anything about that. Iran has us over a barrel and they know it. Military action would be a disaster, sanctions completely undermine the pro-Western support among the young people and either would have disastrous effects on oil prices.
I hate to say it, but I think the time where we could prevent a nuclear program in Iran has passed. We just have no good options left to stop them. I’m willing to bet that history will show Bush’s failure to meaningfully engage Iran as one of his greatest in a long list of failures.
OT but I thought this was very funny from the pope’s report:
“The unitive act of man and woman cannot be separated from its connatural dimension, which is that of procreation and which makes responsible paternity and maternity possible.”
Do you notice to what lengths they go not to mention “sex”? Maybe if it had been in Latin? Nasticum facientes (yes, I know it’s not classical),
Peterr 30
large piles of cow manure . . . Irving must be steaming . . .
brings new meaning to the phrase “legal manure-Irvings”.
with the US having over 5000 nukes and Israel having several hundred nukes … who is to say that Iran can’t have any whatsoever? (plus England, France, China, Pakistan and India are also nuclear powers)(ooops: maybe North Korea too – maybe)
and Russia has a nuclear weapon stockpile with ICBMs that can deliver them massively onto the USA…
looseheadprop from earlier today –
While everyone likes good table conversation, good reporters also like to get tips and ideas for new sources to file away “for later.” You might mention to your lunchtime companion that you’re connected with this interesting and highly intelligent* group of folks that loves hashing out politicians, political strategy, the latest news from the judicial branch’s intersections with the legislative and executive branches, and the media place in this circus as well. If she’s interested, she could drop by and check the place out – doesn’t even have to use her real name if she doesn’t want to. It’s called Firedoglake . . .
Maybe you could come up with a good pseudonymn over lunch, if she wants to drop by in disguise. ;)
And if all that fails, ask her if she played rugby as a younger gal. After watching her on some days, it seems as if something prepared her for the full-contact sport of political reporting.
*proof of the intelligence of this place is that even our humor has footnotes and references: “punaise at xxx,” “hugh at yyy,” etc.
Pachacutec @ 1:31 pm (#19) – The Sunni have another advantage – most of the old Iraqi army was led by Sunnis, and the Republican Guard, their elite force, was mostly Sunni. They have an advantage in knowing how to organize and train an army, and they probably know where most of that army’s weapons are buried.
If it came to civil war, I don’t think the Shia would be a sure bet to win.
Excellent analysis, Pach — but you overlooked a key point.
Ahmed Chalabi and his Iraqi exile group were intel assets under the influence of Iran. Chalabi blew the NSA Iranian codebreaking operation, while his number two escaped and came out of the heat in Tehran.
More importantly, because of the bogus intel supplied to the Cheney Administration by Chalabi, BushCo destroyed their only chance of success.
By disbanding the Iraqi Army as part of the Baathist purge, we doomed the country to civil war. Chalabi wanted to replace Saddam, but there was no way that would happen. The only way to hold the country together was the Baathist-lite approach. Keep the army and as much as possible of the government intact, and make the US footprint as small as possible.
Of course, BushCo saw Iraq as another crony looting opportunity, which is why we are truly fucked — and Iran is sitting in the catbird seat.
Great post Pach.I got busy and didn’t get to it till just now.It’s kinda like, you know, Military 101 George?Oh yeah, you too Rumsfield.
*ilson46201 -
Moreover, the risk posed by an Iran with one or two, or a half-dozen, is WAY overblown (not to diss it entirely). We’re supposed to believe that they’d risk national incineration by shooting of their small inventory? It seems simple rational that a nation – having just witnessed what we did to Iraq – would want to have an effective deterrent.
Peterr– it was a beautiful post! Your latest shows your talent, too. ;)
Ditto your 1:59 and 2:00 *ilson!!!!!!!!!
Check this out:
>>>>>>>>>>
BAGHDAD (AFP) – US troops faced fresh accusations of unlawful killings of civilians in
Iraq as Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki ordered the release of 2,500 detainees in a gesture to promote national reconciliation.
The Iraqi Islamic Party, the main Sunni Arab political party, accused American forces of murdering more than two dozen Iraqis in a series of incidents across the country in May.
“The US forces have violated human rights many times across Iraq,” said Omar al-Juburi, spokesman for the human rights section of the party led by Vice President Tareq al-Hashemi.
In the latest in a string of allegations against US forces, Juburi said 29 Iraqis were killed in May in separate incidents in the towns of Latifiyah and Yusifiyah, south of Baghdad, and in the capital itself.
http://www.rawstory.com/showar…..HNlYwN0bWE
If we don’t learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. Although we are most unfortunate to have suffered the utter f*ckup of all objectives resulting from the ‘94 Agreement with North Korea, we can at least consult this mess for parallels.
Of particular resourcefulness is PBS’ Frontline series on Kim Il Sung and U.S. foreign policy on North Korea under Bush. Pay close attention to the crap that Richard Perle says, because it is virtually the same hardline taken by the neo-cons who remain in this administration and without. That Rice is now going through the motions of the equivalent of a “Sunshine Policy” may be a joke, a bigger psyop on us than on the Iranians…but read the Perle interview and then the rest of it.
You’ve summed it up nicely, Pach. And it does look a lot like the very same f*ckup these bozos in office set up in North Korea.
*ilson46201
Russia still has large stocks of poorly secured nuclear materials which constitute the most important potential terrorist threat to us. Bush and company have been notoriously slow in funding the program that was set up to deal with them. Another case of: the problem is here so we’ll go there.
*ilson46201 @ 1:59 pm (#37) – The Iranians signed the NPT, so I think the Iranians said so. I think allowing Iran to have nukes would make the NPT worthless, so if it can be prevented, I think it should be for that reason alone.
Peterr 39
Maybe you could come up with a good pseudonymn over lunch, if she wants to drop by in disguise.
I once posited Helen Wheels for her…
Hello from Las Vegas!!
The Bush doctrine of “might makes right” is similar to third grade bullies. And these guys have ahold of the steering wheel. Groan!
Unless and until WE stop proliferating, the NPT is worthless.
Just my opinion.
Pach apologizing in advance for going OT (again) I am very bad today.
The WSJ thing by itself did not bother me. THIS is now starting to upset (maybe that is too strong a word) me.
This is starting to look like a full court press. The fact that it is in Andy McCarthy’s backyard is significant to me.
Who is the “former jurist” that levin has in mind to replace Fitz?
Remeber earlier we wondering what was the logic behind the WSJ editorial. MAybe it is not to push PJF’s buttons. Maybe it is to push the rest of the GOP’s buttons. I think maybe they are sending up a test balloon to see if there is any sentiment to get rid of Pat.
Notice how Levin’s piece ties Pat to forcing reporters to testify. Which of course leads right back to the very investigation that has Hassert (who hates Pat- and who was working on picking out Pat’s replacement in Chicago until former Sen Fitzgerald beat back the attempt to get rid of PJF from the Chicago job when his term expired) and Pelosi in a panic?
Tin foil hat time. I think maybe they are getting ready to TRY, operative word TRY to Saturday Night Massacre our boy.
Unless and until WE stop proliferating, the NPT is worthless.
I couldn’t agree more. So long as we are the world’s foremost nuclear power, we have no credibility when addressing other nations. Especially since we give our allies, like India, special exemptions.
Oh look what might be coming by years end. A terror attack!:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..3852.shtml
What else may be coming, oh, ummm, perhaps an election?
Man.
Ws live at the border interview (on CNN) raises a truly disturbing question. 51% of Americans actually voted for this fcuking idiot? My God I wouldn’t let this vapid man babysit my kids much less give him political capital.
I quite agree the NPT is damn important – but then Bush tries to reward the Indians for their atomic bombs. With the US holding over 5000 nuclear warheads, we set a piss-poor example…
scarecrow @ 1:18pm said “The Administration is probably not smart enough, let alone honest enough, to recognize and acknowledge it has failed,”
I don’t think it’s a problem with intelligence or honesty. I think it’s a case of delusion.
These are people who believe that learning from your mistakes, and altering your position as a result, is a sign of weakness. Pure delusion.
angie @ 2:09 pm (#58) – What do you mean WE? I can’t recall any case of the U.S. transferring nuclear weapons technology to anyone. There’s an accusation that we tried to transfer a bogus bomb trigger design in James Risen’s book, but I’m not aware of any other accusation.
With the US holding over 5000 nuclear warheads, we set a piss-poor example%u2026
And we hold the very dubious distinction of being the only nation to ever use them in an act of war. I doubt many nations have forgotten that…
Looseheadprop 51, and we all recall what the Saturday Night Massacre only ACCELERATED!
Samuri Sam and *ilson,
I wrote my law review note on the Nuclear non roliferation treaty of 1958. Most depressing thing I ever wrote. My orginal premiss was that if it had more consesus driven it might have worked better.
Boy, was i wrong. After I went blind reading every feakin piece of microfiche in NYC on the topic, I came to the conclusion that it was all a sham.
It has never been worth the aper it was printed on b/c the US has violated it, with impunity whenever we felt like it. We don’t even pretend to observe it.
And another good point raised by Pach that seems to go over the head of Bush, The Straights of Hormuz.Total choke point.
scary quote from Wikipedia:
“…there are estimated to be at least 29,000 nuclear weapons held by at least seven countries, though 96% of these are in the possession of just two (the United States and the Russian Federation).”
Mr. Iran: When you finish with the self analysis, would you please look wax contemplative about Ms. China for Mr. Rumsfeld. Every time he looks her way, he is addled by his ears filling with the strains of “Oh, sweet mystery of life at last I’ve found you…” For one thing, her concern with excluding him and his buddies from regional meetings has him feeling very dejected. It makes him remember when they barred him from the girls locker room. He’s having a tough time. Buck him up (and yes – buck is the word I was looking for thankyouverymuch).
Samurai Sam @34: I agree but unfortunately I think we may have passed the point where we could do anything about that.
I think this is entirely wrong, and it’s precisely the weary, head-shaking, what-choice-do-we-have mind-set that many people think is “realistic” but instead is fatalistic, if not defeatist, and will lead us straight into a quagmire that will make Iraq seem like a summer picnic.
We DO have resources, TREMENDOUS ones, to influence Iran’s behavior, short of attempting to coerce them militarily. We are the world’s leading economic power, and combined with Europe and Japan, we run the place. Iran might survive by selling oil to China, but neither China nor Russia is especially eager to have a nuclear-armed theocracy with a restive population directly on its borders.
We probably have at least a decade (one notes how the “about a decade” timeframe for Iran to have a weapon has persisted for at least twice that long) to bring to bear the very potent political and economic tools at our disposal to ensure that they do not develop or test a functional fission or fusion device. That’s plenty long. If we start behaving like adults, with a horizon longer than to the next Congressional election — if not news cycle — then we can take care of this incipient problem without even breaking a sweat.
For crying out loud, we managed to deal with the SOVIET FUCKING UNION for FORTY YEARS without having to send in the Marines. Why have we suddenly lost confidence in our geopolitical abilities? (Okay, the current bridge crew is a bunch of power-drunk half-wits, but they’re already on their way out.) This isn’t an unmanageable problem, people.
Oh, and to add one other twist to Pach’s scenario: given that having the belligerent monkeys of the Bush crew in charge of the US is to my (i.e., Iran’s) strategic benefit, and having seen what 9/11 did for Bush’s political standing, does it not occur to me that maybe I should give a call to my Hezbollah homies about some pyrotechnics in the US long about the next couple of Novembers? Just thinkin’…
Lotuslander,
yeah, but by the time of Iran Contra, they had gotten better at it.
If they get rid of him now, this all gets wallpapered over.
*ilson46201 @ 2:12 pm (#55) – Yes, but that number is considerably smaller than it was at its peak. IIRC, we had over 10,000 at one time. The NPT obliges us to get rid of our nukes as well, but I think it’s not too clear on how long that might take.
As for India, I agree it’s a poor policy, but a lone exception for a nation of one billion people whose enemy was already working an building nukes could probably be ignored. Once more nations start doing it, though, the treaty really does become worthless.
The Straights of Hormuz can get married, but not the Gays of ‘Murka.
moeman @ 2:11pm said “51% of Americans actually voted for this fcuking idiot?”
Patently false. Election shenannigans aside, 64% of those eligible to vote actually did so in ‘04. Even ignoring Americans who cannot vote for whatever reason, only a bit over 32.5% voted for Bush.
trying to fix slanty words
OK, enough with the italics, already!
as usual, brilliant riposte from punaise! I usually call them the Hormuz Str8z myself…
Not sure how one prevents a determined and patient country from acquiring nukes eventually—control of their research capability and industrial plant? The present canned dilemma is just an increment of that position, together with the dramatic geopolitical picture, from Iran’s point of view, that Pach’s map provides.
Our fall from grace is that the bomb cannot be uninvented. So, it’s better to try to achieve what we can with reasonable inspection-sanction regimes and other diplomacy, which is that a determined country under inspection will be greatly retarded toward developing nukes at least, while a country under less geopolitical pressure might come to regard a rogue weapons program as an expensive and unnecessary geegaw.
(Then we can try to think of a way to get the rest of us disarmed.)
Funny, I never seem to have the problem of someones HTML stuff messing w/my display.Just lucky i guess.
lhp:
I’ve always considered the attempted firing of Fitzgerald to be a personal pipe dream. I doubted it was likely but knew if it happened, it would be a water
shed-Gate event. I never suspected that they might really try it because a presidential pardon is much quicker, basically uncontestable and not nearly as messy.But it was at that point in Watergate — the Saturday Night Massacre — when even Nixon’s strongest supporters knew that filthy bastard was going down… one way or the other.
Well it they do try to mess with Fitz they are even more out of touch with reality then, say
Ann Coulter. What a freak show these repubs have become.
If you were the leader of Iran your name would be Seyyed Ali Hossayni Khamenei. You’d be the Supreme Leader in a system of government inspired by Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini’s doctrine of the “Absolute Sovereignty of the Jurist” (Velayat-e Moflaqeh Faqih). Under which the leading cleric has unquestionable power over both society and politics. You’d be at the top of the political hierarchy because you’d have been selected by the Assembly of Experts (mostly clerics) you’d head the three branches of the government. In particular you’d control:
* The regular armed forces.
* The police.
* The Islamic Guards Corps (the Pasdaran).
* The state-run radio and television network.
* The direction of foreign policy.
You’d appoint the Supreme Judges and have the power to dismiss the elected President.
You’d also have the power to select the jurists of the Council of Guardians – which acts as a sort of Senate and who are empowered to accept or reject the legislation passed by the 290-member Parliament.
You’d have confrontations with the Parliament, particularly when the latter had a populist majority such as now, and in those confrontations you’d use a third body, the Expediency Council, which makes final decisions under your direction. The Expediency Council consists of selected members of the three branches of the government, including the President of the Republic, selected cabinet members, selected (by you) deputies of the Parliament, all Council of Guardians members who are selected by you, and a few others appointed by you.
If you were the President of Iran you’d be subject to all this. You’d be subject to all this despite the fact that contrary to what Western media would like their audience to believe that you’d won a decisive majority in parliament and also despite what western media would like their readers to believe you’d have massive support amongst Iranian young people. But then western journalists rarely get outside of the snazzy bits of Tehran and they don’t speak Farsi either so they don’t get to meet and talk with typical young Iranians.
And if you were markfromireland you’d sit for a while quite literally with your head in your hands saying between this which is merely ill-informed and the egregious twaddle posted last night which was riddled with outright falsehoods such as this:
I wonder why I fucking bother sometimes the only thing you as a friend can do is stand by and watch people get their other fucking kneecap shot off.
Goodnight.
*poof*
Pach could you please read mod com #2
fwiw, in the 1950s plucky and neutral Switzerland investigated and costed-out an atom bomb project. They concluded they could accomplish it but the cost would be very high and that other defense systems would be more efficient…
they actually planned seven test detonations!
Jim Mallon at 2:11pm
When I saw all the fear wrapped up in that CBS News graphic, I decidered to have a bit of fun with it. Here’s a whole week’s worth of fear:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ednsted
Thanks, seepeesate, I was just poking around for a turn-out stat. (32 percent is still too many, but it does give a different picture, doesn’t it?)
This was posted at Billmon’s on 6/3/04, from an Iranian internet cafe:
http://web.archive.org/web/200…..01504.html
Hello American people,
We have a saying in Tehran. Fel fel nabim cherise. Beshkan bebin chetise. Something to do with peppers being small, but potent when bitten on.
Iran might not be as big and rich as America but she has many centuries experience at cunning game of deception.
Perhaps because we have been living in this danger region for so long we have learned to survive off our wits not our army alone. This is what the world is trying to teach you foolish children.
God willing we shall soon have our own nuclear bomb anyhow. Perhaps then we can stop running complicated rings around your spy agencies.
Watching you try and guess what is really going on is making all the guys in the webcafe here smiling and laugh.
Who is your friend? Who is your enemy? Who is lying and who is telling the truth. Which way is up?
You don’t know anymore, do you? So you guess. We know ahead what you are about to guess and you guess again and the game goes on.
You are the enemy America.
Do you understand now?
Kir te cosa nana.
Merci
Posted by: babak kamali at June 3, 2004 02:34 PM
looseheadprop #51 – you hit the nail on the head, that is exactly what it is – a Saturday Night Massacre trial balloon. PJF is a dangerous man to this administration … I bet they think they can get away with it, now that they have weakened the fourth estate to such an extent. After all, if Bush won’t get rid of Rummy, Gonzales job certainly has to be safe. They need to build the foundation first, however. These guys think long term. Lay the groundwork, then ramp up the push-back and hope Fitz makes a mistake. And if the republicans hang on to Congress, Fitz is gone soon after. Get Abu to take the hit, protest it was a DOJ decision, and hang on. I can see the media whores now, “Well, Bush actually did the opposite of the Saturday Night Massacre. He appointed an outside SP instead of firing one. Bush reads the polls and is eager to show he takes this seriously. He feels insulted that people think he lied us into war.” Then pick a jurist and wait for the whitewash.
Cujo359– we share technology with our friends. We keep building nukes. We haven’t taken them off the table; we say we could use them…
from wiki:
>>>>>
United States-NATO nuclear weapons sharing
At the time the treaty was being negotiated, NATO had in place secret nuclear weapons sharing agreements whereby the United States provided nuclear weapons to be deployed by, and stored in, other NATO states. This would appear to be an act of proliferation violating Articles I and II of the treaty. The NATO states argued internally that the U.S. controlled the weapons in storage, and that no transfer of the weapons or control over them was intended “unless and until a decision were made to go to war, at which the treaty would no longer be controlling”, so there is no breach of the NPT. These agreements were disclosed to some of the states, including the Soviet Union, negotiating the treaty, but most of the states that signed the NPT in 1968 would not have known about these agreements and interpretations at that time [2].
As of 2005, it is estimated that the United States still provides between 180 and 480 tactical B61 nuclear bombs for use by Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey under these NATO agreements [3]. EUCOM-officals speak of a stockpile which is “clearly in the ballpark”, without giving exact figures. Many states, and the Non-Aligned Movement, now argue this violates Articles I and II of the treaty, and are applying diplomatic pressure to terminate these agreements. They point out that the pilots and other staff of the “non-nuclear” NATO states practise handling and delivering the U.S. nuclear bombs, and non-U.S. warplanes have been adapted to deliver U.S. nuclear bombs which must have involved the transfer of some technical nuclear weapons information. NATO believes its “nuclear forces continue to play an essential role in war prevention, but their role is now more fundamentally political” [4].
This situation may be unstable. Under NATO convention, in the event of a declaration of war, these nuclear weapons cease to be subject to this treaty. Such a declaration may occur quickly, and in secret; in effect, the NATO nations will become instantaneous overseas bases for deployment and usage of U.S. nuclear weapons. Many would argue that this situation violates the spirit of the treaty, and perhaps even the written rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N…..ion_Treaty
prostratedragon @ 2:23 pm (#72) Not sure how one prevents a determined and patient country from acquiring nukes eventually
I don’t think you can, really. The trick is to keep the cost/benefit ratio in favor of not having them. That, and for lack of a better word, “peer pressure” are really the only things that will prevent it.
As I said,
I think this is a trial balloon, to see if the idea gets any support.
When Nixon did it, he did not have support. He just did it. When Bush I did it (with the pardons) Weinberger was stymied.
I think they are just floating the idea to “take a tempurature” if you will.
I also think that Levin would have told McCarthy in advance of publishing so, McCarthy would tell Pat. Fitz may not leak to McCarthy, but it does not mean that McCarthy can’t convey backchannel to Pat.
I think, that once again, they are trying to pressure our hero behind the scenes and are letting a little show in public to let him know they mean business.
There were lots of rumors arond my courthouse the summer before the Irving indictments of all manner of evil that was going to befall anyone believed to be aligned with Pat.
Some of it came true. Don’t know if it was a coincidence. There is what you believe vs. what you know. I have my own theories, but don’t actually know for sure.
It’s just, the Levin thing; made the hairs on the back of my head stand up. I think there is more here. Either more backstory or more coming down the pike.
Wull, all I can tell you is that this Iran-threatening is damn personal for me. My beloved sisses-in-law are the daughters of parents still in Tehran. Their dad was a general and the Shah’s ambassador to Turkey.
I haven’t met this couple, but I do know they raised five dynamite daughters whom they sent to the States for college and the rest of their lives. So it’s pretty likely that they’re wonderful, hardy, and probably pretty deft people.
None of which is going to mean jack squat if Chimpy tells Rummy to run the rest of the way amok.
Ed N Sted: Fantastic! I got a noser seeing them. (Noser, an internal spit-take)..well done!
lhp – the USA today story was interesting. I think wholly wrong in its premise as well, but its interesting that places like USA Today and Bloomberg Fin. topics are starting to act as placeholders for the vacancies left by WaPo and NYT.
I wrote my law review note on the Nuclear non roliferation treaty of 1958.
How kewl is that! The conclusion is sad, but you obviously are not a fad follower. *g*
If you are still taking q’s for Helen Thomas, I can think of two, but they are weighty and she might not want to go on much.
First, her take on how journalists should handle info that they receive that is obviously being planted with them, but which nonetheless has news value and the shiney sparkley of “exclusivity” as well.
The other goes to her assessment of the level of threat facing journalists who are dealing with non-administration sanctioned leaks/story development. Not to give credibility to the WSJ statement:
Fitzgerald has used that authority to take the Justice Department in a direction it has never pursued in the past, i.e., to compel testimony from a significant number of reporters about their sources and confidential discussions.
but it would be interesting to hear her take on the overall question and timely if she wanted to go as far as to express an opinion of the Miller/Cooper situation and how it was handled and how that fits the landscape.
While I absolutely from a legal standpoint think Fitzgerald was correct, and from the (separate from legal) policy standpoint as someone entrusted with such an important matter, it was probably the right call, but it made me worry at the time about how it might be propagandized later.
Thnx seepeesate. Now I know why Little Boots’ % of the vote matches his popularity (in the US).
Mary,
I added your questions to my cheatsheet.
Thanx
Afternoon. Hmmm…I think ole #76 disagrees with me??? I’m reminded of that Casablanca line about gin joints…chuckle. But anyways-
I was surprised by Rice’s announcement that Iran had WEEKS, not months to accept our overtures. Yet….correct me if I’m wrong….doesn’t Negropointe testify that Iran is still 4-5 YEARS away from bomb capability??? If so….why the rush?
Oh, and yep, I think Mr. Pach has summed up the flow of things pretty well. In my opinion, the WH will seek out sanctions….tensions will ratchet…and the WH looks for a modern day “Gulf of Tonkin” incident to justfy the bombing runs. All done in “retaliation” you see.
Ghostman
Here’s an article that is pertinent to the discussion wrt to nukes and Iran and the NPT.
>>>>>>>>>>
According to independent military journalist Gordon Thomas, that has already happened. He has reported the Harpoons were equipped with “over the horizon” software from a US manufacturer to make them suitable for attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities. Because the shallow waters of the Persian Gulf make the Israeli subs easily detectable, two of them are reported to be patrolling the deeper reaches of the Gulf of Oman, well within range of Iranian targets.
If Israel has US nuclear weaponry pointed at Iran, the position of the country’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, becomes more politically supportable by his people. Despite the fact that Israel has been developing nuclear material since 1958, the country has never formally acknowledged it has a nuclear arsenal. Analysts have estimated, however, that Israel is the fifth-largest nuclear power on the planet with much of its delivery systems technology funded by US taxpayers. To complicate current diplomatic efforts, Israel, like Pakistan and India, has refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty even as it insists in the international discourse that Iran be stopped from acquiring what Israel already has.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0430-22.htm
Pach and looseheadprop -
The initial post on Iran and the recent comments about the WSJ and Fitz aren’t at all on separate topics. The well-honed tactics of this administration is that when they are looking weak as all get out over here, then it’s time to find somewhere that we can look strong, like over there. They don’t deal with problems, they deal with things that look like problems.
Hmmm . . . Republican corruption and shaky morals in the news? Let’s retake the moral high ground and drag out the gays and beat on them about the death of marriage. Iraq looking bad? Let’s look strong by rattling Iran’s cage. Still looking weak? Hmmm . . . where can we show strength? Got it: let’s stand up to a rogue federal prosecutor!
Fitz’s silence, save for his legal briefs, has to be driving the politcal hacks at the White House nuts. “How can we take him on in the press if he won’t even hold a damn press conference to get back at us?”
Do you smell the fear? It isn’t a pretty thing. If this WSJ thing is a prelude to a Saturday Night Massacre redux, two words keep coming back to mind: Chicago Rules.
Like I said before, you’ve got to have hope. I was rereading Colbert’s commencement speech, and his conclusion seems fitting here. Fear is a “yes, but” that leads to inaction. Yes, this is the situation, but I’m afraid of doing anything about it. Hope, on the other hand, is “yes, and”. Yes, this is the situation, and here’s where we’re going.
Yessir, ya gotta have hope.
Matt Yglesias did something similar almost exactly two years ago: postulate Bush as an Iranian mole.
http://www.prospect.org/web/pa…..cleId=7799
Like a lot of stuff, it would be funny if it weren’t so sad and enraging.
I used to like this FDL place, but today I listened to Rush Limbaugh and I learned that the liberals and the Democrats and the media are gleeful about the “alleged” Haditha massacre and I heard from Ann Coulter that the 9/11 widows are gleeful about their dead husbands and are happy they died because now they are millionaires.
Boy, the rightwing is amping up the venom and hate….is wigging me out today….
-GSD
Are the italics gone? I’m sure I was the culprit – I’ve been going through threads and links at the same time and also a couple of emails and docs. Mea culpa – they aren’t showing on my screen though, so I hope they are fixed.
BTW – whoever posted the Pandora link before, thank you. Not my best day and it has channeled Mahalia and Marion Wilson and Muddy Waters. Emotional posts below – hugs and heroes all around.
conyers does a GREAT job on this very topic;
moeman @ 2:34 pm,
I might be just getting pedantic here, but… in most such polls, they ask “likely voters,” which typically means that they’re voters who actually voted in the prior election. The intent is to try and compare apples to apples by asking only the opinions of those whose opinions are reflected by elections.
Also, among the 36% of eligle voters who didn’t vote, there’s no guarantee that they wouldn’t have voted for Bush (although statistically, most wouldn’t have.)
So the good news is that a sizable majority of Americans never voted for Bush, and the good news is that drops in his JAR, for the most part, reflect the opinions of the minority who did.
lhp (51), anon (84) — what if they already know there’s an indictment for Rove, and they push for an independent SP to replace Fitz AFTER the Rover indictment? How would a new SP change the lay of the land AFTER the indictment?
Smells like something will happen inside the next 2 weeks; they are getting too close to primaries to wait any longer. There are many small psyop scuffles going on at the same time, too, making overall control utterly impossible (like this crap about Clintons’ and Bushes’ marriages — a preemptive, a counter, another parry due any time now).
Once, twice, three times, a poster . . .
angie @ 2:30 pm (#85) – I think that if the NATO agreement was in place before the NPT was signed, then the transfer of technology had already happened. As your quote says, there’s also a bit of a gray area there concerning whether the weapons are actually in the hands of the non-nuclear NATO countries or the U.S. military. Hypocrical perhaps, but one might say it’s a fait accompli, at least if one were inclined to write in foreign languages.
It might be time for all involved to reconsider that agreement, but that’s another story.
Ghostman,
just got here… gotta run though…did you catch my comment #226 on the Uncle Toms Closet thread??
Peterr -
All FDL posts must now be filed in triplicate, one for the readers, one for the ISP, and one for the NSA.
Respecfully,
Alberto Gonzales
ehhh…..so what. Let’s go beat up some fags.
(To be clear – pure snark comment)
106, Larry….no, I can’t recall it. I’ll try to take a look.
Ghostman
my (#105) @ 2:55pm – Hypocrical perhaps, but one might say it’s a fait accompli, at least if one were inclined to write in foreign languages.
If one were inclined to write in english, one might say hypocritical.
Fun war-gaming, Pach. All the Iranians have to do to win is stall successfully. Meanwhile they’ve just gotten in bed with the anti-NATO security organization run by China:
http://www.payvand.com/news/05/jul/1031.html
But Iran won’t be allowed to stall. The US is trying to provoke Russia and China into making a first move through Iran. The idea is to then respond with a limited nuclear war. Cheney and Rummy want to go nuclear because, by their lights, it’s the only way the US can remain the dominant superpower; anything but a nuclear conflict guarantees that we’ll be eclipsed by China and India.
Nuclear capability has always been central to PNAC’s plans, and nuclear war is a logical, even desirable, outcome in a winner-take-all framework. When PNAC members discuss US military capability as all-powerful, they’re not referring to conventional weapons. They’re talking satellite-guided megatronic fission bombs and the ability to destroy the earth.
Off Topic
There’s gw bush visiting the border again, dressed semi-casually, out in the heat wearing a long-sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled up to the elbows rather than having the sense to wear short sleeves like the border guards. He favors style because he thinks it make it look like he is doing “hard work.” You don’t think Rove choreographs these details?
MarcLord @ 3:05 pm (#112) megatronic fission bombs
Weren’t those the ones Astroboy carried?
Pach for preznit!
OT, I’ve been searching for information about what’s happening in CA-50, without much luck. MyDD.com is usually the go to place for election coverage, but he doesn’t have anything up yet. Any other good sources?
Bobby G wasnt’t kidding! lol
Despite what that shyster Gonzalez said, there is absolutely no reason to file multiple FDL comments. Believe me, we do have our ways of acquiring copies of everything you write or say. Not that I am confirming or denying anything whatsoever…
Peterr,
Chicago Rules. Thank you for reminding me.And anyone who lurks here, this has to played by Chicago Rules.
Rayne :
When Guliani was USA in NYC he brought a series of cases against Wallstreeters.Mostly insider trading cases. Haven’t seen the like until Dave Kelley ( a Guliani hire)brought back the tradition.
Many powerful people and powerful law firms objected and complained to the WH, but Rudy had too much public support and so the cases stuck. But appeals were filed.
When he left office, he tried to get a commitment about who would replace him as USA. Specifically, he wanted a commitment that no one would try to go back and dismiss the wall street cases after the fact.
He could not get it and was pressured for time b/c he wanted to run for mayor and could not fundraise while he was a Hatch Act employee.
When he left, the WH appointed a man who indirectly through a series of op ed pieces and public appearances by his law partners, campaigned for the job on a platform of abhoring the Wall Street prosecutions.
When th new USAe got the job, he had the appeals of these cases assigned to inexperienced brand new ASUA’s. Some of whom had never SEEN a Second Circuit brief before.
Many of them got killed by top notch appellate lawyers with years of experience. The newbies knew they were cannon fodder. It was horrible to watch.Normally, new ASUA’s are carefully trained and nurtured in the hope that good ones will make gov’t service their life’s work (or most of their super productive years).
You come to an office like SDNY all full of idealism, enthusiasm, and hope for bright shiney victories both for the good you can do for your country and for the good you can do for the ole’ resume.
These newbies became cycnical and burnt out overnight, seeing the once glorious “sovereign disrict of new york” sullied by politcs.
Many left before their 3 year commitment ended daring the incumbent USA to sue them. (which he couldn’t so, it’s a none binding commitment, a word of honor kind of thing, only they felt there was no reciprocal honor).
A lot of really good people left or were forced out of government service during Iran Contra. The stories were never really reported.
With Bushco 1 it was all about protecting their little club of rapaciuos insiders. With Bushco 2, it seems, it still is.
Never forget, Fitz lived thorugh all of this. Saw it first hand. he knows how ruthess these people can be.
So, yeah, there are a lot of ways this “former jurist” they want to appoint could tank the cases, the investigation, everything without leaving any fingerprints. Hell, he/she could go to trial and “lose” by taking a dive. like a fixed prize fight.
How it’s going to turn out, I have no idea. This is not the first time they have tried to get rid of him and he is still here. Maybe they will fail this time too.
This AM, I was scoffing at the WSJ article. Combined with the Levin thing, NOW it has my attention.
Maybe it’s an fey Irish thing, but I take it seriously when the hairs stand up on my neck. OK, OK so I am superstious.
Ah lawsy. I sent a clip of some of our previous thread (the stuff to do with my shrimp question and the Alligator Bag comments) to a friend who’s the food editor of the Palm Beach Post. Must share what just came back. Take it away, Jan:
further OT: if you didn’t learn your English in the pre-TV South, you simply CANNOT appreciate the shock of hitting grade school and finding out about those last two letters in “store.”)
Oh, mercy!
You hit yet another chord. Convinced “t’rectly” was a word (When we goin’ Daddy? t’rectly, doll.”) I cried my eyes out when my strict teacher said there WAS no such word and I needed to start pronouncing all my other words
CORRECTLY. Read that: without that heavy Southern Alabama drawl that marked me from Grades 1-3, and caused spellin fits like you ain’t never seen.
Lucky me: I was a heavy-duty reader from the get-go: so seeing words spelled out made me realize there were a whole buncha people who didn’t know how to talk like we’uns did. I was a quick study and am now a champeen speller, most often. My fingers, however, are woefully fallin’ behind the brain so as to be backin’ up.
I’m still always “fixin’ to” and “wuz about to” and reckon so’in’ things; but in that flat, accentless speech that’s neither h’y’ear nor there. plum pitiful!)
SHRIMP STOCK:
1. Make a velvety shrimp bisque, to die for. No shrimp needed.
2. Gumbo (I second that motion – waving my tall, thin jar of file’ powder around like a scepter).
3. Shrimp dumplings. (takes finesse, but these are Chinese pastries that benefit from stock mixed into the dough, filled with chopped shrimp, etc.; I’d look up a recipe but am on a Jerry Clower*** deadline.)
4. A beurre blanc sauce* for a lobster ravioli. (lobster=shrimp. interspecies marriage — don’t tell bushites). No cheese!! I am a rebel in that I don’t believe cheese and seafood gee-hoss. There’s a reason cows don’t dive and we ain’t herdin’ lobsters.
*butter, touch o’ white wine — or not –, cream, shrimp stock, ground white pepper, shallots or onion; capers won’t hurt, but are, as always, optional. Saffron if you’re of a mind. I think it’s overpowering for most foods and avoid. Or, maybe, I just don’t like it. I taste it for days.
Foodjan
***Jerry Clower deadline: “Just shoot up here amongst us (i.e., editors, reporters, page designers), cause ONE of us got to have some reLEEF!”
sanitas: The polls haven’t closed. They’ll be open at least until 7pm CA time. Be patient!
CNN Lou Dobbs is upset about potential voting machine fraud, but only because it involves a company owned by Venezuelans [foreigners]. Nothing about Diebold.
On Polling. Pollsters usually only use “likely voters” when we are close to an election. Each pollster defines “likely voters” a bit differently- but they are all identified through screening questions. Typically- likely voters voted in the last election and say that they are highly likely to vote in the next.
Not much news here in the 50th. Voting is progressing despite “Normal early glitches”. Turnout for the primary is supposed to be in the neighborhood of 33%. Here in the 50th we expect more- perhaps 40%. Latest poll showed Bilbray leading by 2%.
It all depends on turnout. Many are energized by the immigration question. On the one hand- rednecks are livid- on the other- hispanic voters are pissed too.
May come down to who is the most pissed off.
New thread. Ann’s got a hangover.
Lou Dobbs is getting upset about the marriage amendment because he thinks it is not a high priority compared to the economy, etc. He’s debating a fundie wingnut who’s concerned about the collapse of civilization.
Oh, the fundie wingnut is Richard Vigurie (sp?)
New poll out- Cook Political Report shows GW Clusterfuck with a 37% approval rating- pretty close to Gallup’s 36% released today. Cook shows Clusterfuck up only one point from previous poll. Gallup shows him up five. The recent polls are all from pollsters who tend to give higher marks. We haven’t heard yet from the others.
Probably Gallup’s previous 31% erred on the low side and thus showed a bigger bounce than is actually there. We’ll probably get some lower numbers coming in later this week. Clusterfuck’s probably sitting at 34% or so overall.
Yeah, Pach:
They couldn’t be harming the country more if they were doing it on purpose.
Did you see the excerpts from the Ayatollah’s speech on Sunday?
Boy, the rightwing is amping up the venom and hate%u2026.is wigging me out today%u2026.
Something about 6/6/06 must make it their day. The very visage of Coulter is a sign of the Apocalypse.
If ethics training has come to the W/house and the Marines then surely it’s only a matter of time before it reaches the moronic inferno media.
( WSJ, lunar right radio and etc)
Right?
I’m not expecting a saturday night massacre out of this …unless the Chimp gets really drunk one of these long dark cold hideously empty endless night’s of his.
OT but what about Wen HoLee?
Ms Plame, Flame, whassername must surely be pricking up her ear’s at that settlement figure.
Making the government and the media pay dearly and directly seems to be almost a better way than voting Vichy to make them accountable.
Thoughts?
Hmmm%u2026.perhaps, but I’m not entirely convinced. Aren’t I (Iran) already involved in a sectarian civil war?
By being involved in a small, supportive role, and on the sly, they would be fullfilling the need to “keep US forces bogged down”. The difference keeping the US bogged down, by perhaps supplying some logistical and economic support, vs getting drawn into a full-on sectarian war are substantial.