
According to the NYTimes (and previously USAToday and CNet’s reporting), the Attorney General has been meeting with representatives of the major internet provider companies to persuade them to keep records of all usage by their members so that law enforcement will be able to comb through those records at a later time.
Now I know, you are sitting there saying to yourself, "Well, maybe they could catch some sex pervert who was trying abscond with some kid." or "Maybe they could have caught up with the hijackers from 9/11 that way." But that isn’t what this is about.
This is the after-the-fact proof — after the crime has been committed — that you use to put someone away. And how do they identify the need for that? Does the NSA’s domestic spying program (without a warrant as required by the Fourth Amendment) ring any bells?
The Justice Department is asking Internet companies to keep records on the Web-surfing activities of their customers to aid law enforcement, and may propose legislation to force them to do so.
The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, and Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales held a meeting in Washington last Friday where they offered a general proposal on record-keeping to a group of senior executives from Internet companies, said Brian Roehrkasse, a spokesman for the department. The meeting included representatives from America Online, Microsoft, Google, Verizon and Comcast….
The Justice Department is not asking the Internet companies to give it data about users, but rather to retain information that could be subpoenaed through existing laws and procedures, Mr. Roehrkasse said….
The department proposed that the records be retained for as long as two years. Most Internet companies discard such records after a few weeks or months.In its current proposal, the department appears to be trying to determine whether Internet companies will voluntarily agree to keep certain information or if it will need to seek legislation to require them to do so.
The request comes as the government has been trying to extend its power to review electronic communications in several ways. The New York Times reported in December that the National Security Agency had gained access to phone and e-mail traffic with the cooperation of telecommunications companies, and USA Today reported last month that the agency had collected telephone calling records. The Justice Department has subpoenaed information on Internet search patterns — but not the searches of individuals — as it tries to defend a law meant to protect children from pornography. (emphasis mine)
Child pornography cases are difficult to track, in large part because a lot of the chats that occur between predators and kids occur in IM windows rather than in an open chat room, and it can take quite a while to reconstruct everything on a computer that someone has attempted to wipe prior to arrest. It can also be very difficult to trace a photograph taken of a single child back to its origin, but law enforcement tries to do so for the sake of each and every child involved in the often hundreds and hundreds of photographs that you can glean for a single, seized hard drive from a sexual pradator.
Having seen the results of child sexual abuse first hand — from tiny children on through to adults who had been victimized as kids — I can tell you that no crime makes my blood boil more than this.
But from what the NYTimes is reporting, the DoJ and the FBI are using kiddie porn as a sort of "bait and switch" with the internet providers — an incentive, if you will, to get them to go along with this program, because no one who has spent time looking at images involved in child pornography can ever walk away from them unmoved or unangered.
An executive of one Internet provider that was represented at the first meeting said Mr. Gonzales began the discussion by showing slides of child pornography from the Internet. But later, one participant asked Mr. Mueller why he was interested in the Internet records. The executive said Mr. Mueller’s reply was, "We want this for terrorism."
At the meeting with privacy experts yesterday, Justice Department officials focused on wanting to retain the records for use in child pornography and terrorism investigations. But they also talked of their value in investigating other crimes like intellectual property theft and fraud, said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, who attended the session.
"It was clear that they would go beyond kiddie porn and terrorism and use it for general law enforcement," Mr. Rotenberg said.
Kate Dean, the executive director of the United States Internet Service Provider Association, a trade group, said: "When they said they were talking about child pornography, we spent a lot of time developing proposals for what could be done. Now they are talking about a whole different ball of wax."
At the meeting with privacy groups, officials sought to assuage concerns that the retention of the records could compromise the privacy of Americans. But Mr. Rotenberg said he left with lingering concerns.
"This is a sharp departure from current practice," he said. "Data retention is an open-ended obligation to retain all information on all customers for all purposes, and from a traditional Fourth Amendment perspective, that really turns things upside down."
My husband could tell you that, when it comes to law enforcement matters, my attitude is generally a fairly hard-lined one: you do the crime, you do the time, period. And under normal circumstances, my reaction on something like this would be to consider the advantages that it would provide to law enforcement if used properly — including being able to back-track through someone’s e-mail and chat information for clues after a disappearance or some foul play. (Which you can do to some extent already, just going through the hard drive on the computer itself, btw, but apparently this is about much more than single-user searching.)
But with the Bush Administration and its disconnect from the Constitution in so many ways, I fear the mis-use of this information. Say you are driving from your own home cross country to visit friends. You stop in an internet cafe, log in to check your e-mail, a news story catches you eye about something going on in Iraq, you do a search for more information because you have a buddy stationed over there — something you’ve done a number of times before because your friend is stationed in a hot area in Iraq — and a few days later your friends are wondering why you haven’t gotten to their house. No one knows where you are. You are allowed no contact with anyone, including an attorney — nothing. Because you’ve been pulled into protective custody as a potential material witness or person of interest — because of an internet search that happened to match up with something for which the government was looking at the time.
Think it can’t happen here? Two words for you: Jose Padilla. Guilty or not of any crime, the man was held for close to three years with no charges ever being filed — and he is an American citizen and was picked up on American soil by American law enforcement agents.
The Constitution is not some mere convenience, that you sometimes apply and sometimes choose to ignore when it suits you. The same for the laws in this nation. They are to apply to everyone at all times. But the Bush Administration continues to skirt the requirements for lawful arrest, privacy issues, Fourth Amendment search and seizure protections and many, many others because it finds itself unable to reconcile its need for complete and total control and power over all information and the individual rights and liberties of the citizens who live here.
When we change how we function as a free society, and turn to a more totalitarian approach to law enforcement that has ever-shrinking respect for individual liberty, we become the very thing that we say we are fighting against. By becoming a totalitarian state ourselves, we are allowing Osama Bin Laden to win. Without him having to expend any more energy other than to sit back in some cave in Pakistan and read the news of what the Bush Administration is doing all on its own to dismantle the checks and balances, the firm commitment to liberty, that has ensured our nation’s balance toward freedom and democracy for more than 200 years.
The thing that may scuttle this entire proposal is the cost for the internet companies involved in the negotiations. Maintaining records for every single internet transaction for every single user for a two-year period would be a staggering cost — and that may be what pulls this back in the end if campaign contributors begin to balk because their bottom line is being squeezed.
I’m sure not holding out for any oversight or accountability being demanded by the Rubber Stamp Republican Congress of the Bush Administration on this one. So let’s hear it for capitalism — and let’s hope that the need to make a buck is more persuasive than a wholesale shift in how our individual freedoms are devalued in favor of a wholesale grab in order to bolster whatever case the government chooses to make in the moment.
This all comes down to a matter of trust and, the bottom line for me and I suspect for a lot of you as well: I don’t trust the Bush Administration to do the right thing with this much power over this kind of information. Law enforcement measures must be tempered, always, with the concern for justice, fairness and individual rights. The Bush Administration has shown over and over again that it does not deserve that trust.
Related posts:
- Was AUSA Brown’s Resignation Tied to FOIAs Revealing Link to Christie?
- Obama’s New State Secrets Policy is Reaffirmation Of Bush’s Policy
- More for Health Care, Less for Insurance Execs? Rockefeller Demands 90% Loss Ratio
- Bush Officials Compromised Renzi Investigation for Political Gain
- DOJ to Beef Up Corporate Fraud Enforcement (As Soon as They Find a Super Star)





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Fitzarooni !
FITZ!!
Fitz!
The grand jury is meeting today.
I hearded it on The Note.
frith!
…oh fotz!
yet I remain unsullied
nines @ 4! lol!!! Thanks for the important update!!
….fred, that is….
thanks, christie, for another rousing morning-there, late-night-here clock-stopper post…
ilson is that a new type of mac?
LeisureGuy!
…or a whole new food group?
1. As a general rule, conservatives always have a “thing” about pornography — stamping it out, shutting it down, etc.
2. This Administration is perfectly capable of trying to put lipstick on the pig of warrantless domestic spying by justifying it as an anti-pornography move.
3. With inexpensive-per-byte data archival methods, it’s fairly cheap for corporations to store traffic data forever. Capitalist greed isn’t likely to be our savior here.
Christy, this is all very worrisome of course – but what really puzzles me about all of these assaults on the constitution and the grasping of power for the executive is that there is no way the neocons would want any democrat to have this same kind of power – it’s clearly a republican far-right wing agenda that they are fulfilling. I can only conclude that they intend for these powers NEVER to belong to the democrats. They are planning to be in charge permanently. With Bush’s current approval ratings and all of the republican scandals – how do you suppose they imagine that will happen, short of manipulating elections?
Unfortunately, I don’t believe that the Justice Dept will need to get a law passed to force their desires.
Either “intimidation” with loss of govt contracts or “glad-handing” to get those same govt contracts will suffice, and the Internet providers may just “volunteer” their records in the same manner as the Telcos (Bell South, AT&T & Verizon) did wrt Call Record information.
As to the “cost” you described for storing this info, disk drives are cheap, other media like CDs or DVDs are even cheaper, and what the hey, they’ll just pass on the increase to their customers anyways.
I think of Germany 1930-1940 in their “solution” mode where they used IBM punch cards to “know” who to pickup.
History is repeating itself and it is here. My emails, faxes, blog posts & comments. My whole life can be laid bare to someone with a database and data mining application.
Search and pool specific people…. poof that group is “bad” and need to be detained. That old line of “They came for the Catholics and since I was not Catholic I did not complain” fits this very scenario.
Jose Padilla…Well, listen to his name..isn’t he one of them illegals? I mean, he can’t be white..uh, I mean, a real American. Anybody who isn’t a real American is a potential terrorist, and I’m not worried if he’s picked up. Now if they’d picked up Rick Santorum….
dondi @7:05
good point
*ilson46201 12 – 1. As a general rule, conservatives always have a “thing” about pornography %u2014 stamping it out, shutting it down, etc.
…and from time to time are caught participating in, or in possession of, illegal porn or molestation.
Checks and balances? We don’t need no stinkin’ checks and balances!
I think you really put your finger on it when you said the magic word, Christy: cost.
Just who is going to pay for the space to store all these records? Are ISP’s going to have to physically expand their bricks-and-mortar facilities to accomodate all the new stuff they’ll need to keep track of this? The way the net is growing, the size of the database would have to be enormous. Why, to even use it we’d need a supercomputer with massive storage capacities . . .
Oh wait, I think the NSA may have one or two of those laying around.
Never mind.
Nice post Christy.
But this isn’t about any crime at all. It’s about tracking people who are reading sites they don’t like. People getting ideas about the government they don’t like.
Reading sites like this one or
http://www.truthout.com
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.rawstory.com
http://www.bradblog.com
Or sites like this one.
You got it: It all boils down to trust.
This administration has been barreling ahead, breaking every constraint (including the law and the Constitution), saying “Trust us.” Sometimes it says it nice, sometimes not so nice.
It stole two presidential elections and cites them as proof of our trust.
It refuses to reveal or discuss what it has been doing, what it is doing now, and what it is planning to do, but it insists on our trust.
Its operatives and supporters are amassing obscene fortunes while the rest of us are expected to trust them, work for them, and fight for them.
Coincidentally, while they wallow in the trust that they have extorted from us, they trust us less and less. They want to know everything that we have done, everything that we are doing, and especially everything that we might be planning to do. Is there an imbalance here?
There is a name or two for this. They might still remember one or the other in Cuba, Russia, Spain, Japan, Germany, and Italy. Come on, folks: Notice anything familiar here? Where is all this trust leading us?
What are they going to do with all of this stuff? They seem unable to successfully prosecute high-level terrorists even with all the cards stacked in their favor.
Time and time again it’s revealed that our government’s problem isn’t the lack of information, it’s the follow-up. Data-mining programs don’t have that feature just yet.
The overall sense I get is that they’re doing all this because they just don’t like people very much.
torn–chicago @7:13,
Exactly what I was thinking.
This is the beginning of them shutting down the last remaining means of free communication. Anybody who doubts this is their goal, and that they will achieve it as easily as they have all their others, I have some waterfront property in Arizona to sell you.
What, you’re in favor of terrorists and child pornographers?
This sounds like the “ultimate stalker”…”we will watch every move you make”!
And no worry about prosecutions anymore since they will have all the evidence anyone could want.
Kinda backasswards IMHO; aren’t they supposed to have “probable cause” of a crime before they start gathering evidence?
Now they want to gather the evidence on everyone and then figure who is committing crimes. Neato!
How terribly efficient! How cost-effective! Look Ma, our government is saving us money by reducing the need for search warrants. That will surely bring the deficit down! :-)
This is hugely alarming, and I’m worried about just hoping the companies themselves will balk at the costs involved. What happened to the outrage over Total Information Awareness a couple of years ago? Why is this Big Brother scenario now simply accepted as inevitable? Have we become numbed?
Christy, how about all of us organizing another campaign to raise awareness of this outrage? What really bothers me is that 2 1/2 years is plenty of time to gut the 4th amendment; they’re been very busy bees and they’ve obviously launched a campaign to eradicate personal privacy.
I’m so frustrated! Clinton and Schumer, my senators, are good for nothing on this score (Schumer’s office told me he was writing a letter, as if that was enough. I asked them to shut down the Senate instead.)
Are we just going to accept this?
So they’re not retaining content. That makes it all ok, right? Well, guess again. It takes me about 30 seconds to figure out why I for instance should be creeped out by this.
Knowing as we do from prior evidence that whatever justification and application the Administration claims for this new incursion on our privacy is probably bunk, let’s assume for a moment that this info will be be dumped into a “social network analysis” scheme.
I personally have (and remember, it’s not content we’re concerned with here, but patterns of behavior):
– A woman friend who is a British citizen, who moved to Saudi Arabia from here in the U.S., and is a long-time staunch advocate of the Palestinian’s right to a state. She’s in routine contact with various persons in the wretched bit of dust and rocks trying to be Palestine. She emails me frequently with various bits and pieces of of political news;
– A fascination with aircraft that often finds me perusing various technical documents available on web, such as last night’s fun reading about potable water systems on 747 aircraft (don’t brush your teeth with water from an aircraft tap, unless you enjoy drinking insect eggs and fecal coliform bacteria…).
So, I’m in regular contact with a person who is a prime candidate for surveillance, emailing me from a country that’s on the A-list for countries under suspicion of breeding terrorists, and my IP number can often be found lurking about various web sites dealing with the internals and operational nuances of civilian aircraft. If Abu Gonzales’ fishing system works at all, I can expect that the content of my communications will be a matter of interest and will be perused by “the authorities”. I’ve not displayed any criminal behaviour, mind you, I’m just not behaving quite “normally” and consequently would need to be given a good squint.
Are we ok with this? Not me, because I’ve also seen what a bunch of incompetent boobs the intel community is filled with, and how entirely incapable they are of admitting mistakes.
with so many Americans doing online banking, keeping track of all your bill payments would be so much easier for the snoops…
Brings to mind these sting lyrics
Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I’ll be watching you
Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I’ll be watching you
Oh can’t you see
You belong to me
Well I’m not scared because my internet account is with AOL/Time Warner and I know they’ll defend my privacy even if it affects their share price.
Plus my office is next door to the Empire State Building, so I know I’m safe with all the DHS funding going to NYC and its landmarks.
The kiddie porn angle is a beaut for reaching the conservatives who would otherwise be going ape over such a Big Brotherish program. “Ah, but it’s for the kids, and to get rid of all that filth. OK.”
Hate to burst your bubble, Dubua, but I don’t think most of the rightwingers are going to buy that one. We think “Jose Padilla” and they think “Ruby Ridge.” We shudder to think of Dubya, Cheney, and Rove with this kind of power, and they will shudder to think of Hillary, Kennedy, or Dean with it.
Kiddie porn just ain’t enough to quell that fear. It’s nasty “lock ‘em up and throw away the key” stuff, no mistake about it, but it ain’t enough to trash the constitution.
But Stalin must be smiling. Oh, the American gloating after the wall came down. Oh, the gloating after “winning” the cold war. Oh, the gloating over Mother Russia’s downfall. Now, it’s my turn to gloat . . .”
as a child of the Cold War, I have long been fascinated by nuclear weapons — I’ve found the Net to be wonderful on keeping me up on atomic history. How many of you ever heard of the Swiss atom bomb project? My internet traffic patterns might seem “odd” to a data-mining algorithm — will I be put on a do-not-fly list?
As I have said before…..
If this adminstration was not able to decifer the 52 separate and verifible warnings of an imminent terrorist attack in the summer of 2001….
How the hell are they going to be able to sort through and decifer BILLIONS of phone records and Internet records for terrorist activity now…….
The Right Wing idiots and apologists better wake up because if they think their GUN RECORDS are safe, they are highly mistaken…….
I fear that the next crisis will be the economy
tanking… It’s living on borrowed time…
What became of Bush’s pledge to cut the deficit in half by 2009?
Impeach Bush and restore confidence!
He won’t make it to 2009…
The Bay State Librul
You are absolutely right. This must be broken down into sound bytes and pounded into the heads of my fellow Neanderthals. It’s taking hold a bit, but golly, did you see John Stewart’s bit when he showed the clips of ALL those Talking Heads? They were all saying that they don’t mind if the gov spies on ‘em cuz:
It’ll keep ‘em safe.
They ain’t done nothin’ wrong, ergo they got nuthin’ to hide.
It’s an uphill battle when you got all those teevee heads working for the bad guys.
And, its complicated b/c one has to preface one’s commentary with qualifiers as you have done above.
The worst part, is that the Talking Heads are working so, agressively, for the devil.
Some key points can be presented in a discussion in a sound byte style are Patrick Henry’s “Give me liberty or give me death”.
Or New Hampshire’s “Live Free Or Die”.
These slogans are about what this country was founded on. Freedom from oppressive government.
Then one can say, “I think our goverment is acting more like the Soviet Union than the USA”.
This kind of thing was what they did under the Soviet Socialist Republic. It’s not what America is about.
Bush will be lucky to last until January 19th, 2009 !
Doug @ 7:24 –
Here’s another one. My wife works in a medical research lab in the Bay Area, with a lot of Chinese. Some are from Taiwan, others from different parts of the mainland. All great folks.
But suppose one of them gets a phone call from someone on an oh-so-infallible watch list or checks out a questionable website. Then the NSA starts looking at everyone else in the lab. Then everyone else that those folks deal with. Now we’re talking about me.
Movie buffs play the “six degrees of separation” game to link any actor to Kevin Bacon. The NSA wants to play that with you and me, and it won’t need six steps to get to most anyone.
They’ve been so good at catching suspicious 3 year olds and US Senators trying to sneak explosives onto planes, that we’ve got nothing to worry about here.
When I was little I was so proud to live in a free country.
Aren’t those electrical power lines in the photo?
My daughter, a gifted 15 year old college junior with double majors… Psychology & Arabic Language Studies… has already been visited on campus (2x) by the G man for her internet searches….
Oh, it’s hard to be moderate with a subject like this, but I’ll wait for moderation . . .
(Don’t get me wrong – I’m glad the filters are there, Christy and Jane! Gotta keep the trolls at bay, and the spam too. Otherwise, it’d be nothing but Python around here: spam spam spam spam; spam spam spam spam; spammity-spam! . . . )
combine this data-mining with a few rulings tanking whistle-blowers and . . .
don’t even try to think rover & his ilk wouldn’t use whatever they can for political mayhem – groan.
C’mon FITZ!?!
Le Jackal at 39 — picky, picky. You try and find an appropriate photo on one cuppa coffee… *g*
Egregious is so right.
I’m 58 and ashamed of my country’s arrogance
and lies…
I’m getting so fucking antsy, every day brings
new revelations…
I know Fitzy needs time, but I’ve had enough!
Indict…. today!
The Bay State Librul
I wouldn’t have a problem with this, if I thought the government would actually go through the courts before accessing the data (and if I had more faith in the independence of the judiciary).
I will point out that it would be very hard for the government to track anonymous access from a place like Starbucks. Maybe coffeeshops will again become a hotbed of political ferment.
fwiw, there are numerous commercial methods of tcp/ip over electric power lines…that vacuum cleaner cord could be your window to the information superhighway !
Perhaps there is small comfort that if and when Democrats take over the White House, Republicans will become small-c conservatives and go catatonic at even the suggestion that mined data could be used to prosecute anyone they like.
I did something this morning that I can’t remember doing for a very long time. My usual morning commute routine – I have about a 35 minute drive to work – is to get a feel for what’s going on by cruising through the XM radio stations: I hit the driver’s seat by 7:00 am, so I usually start with AirAmerica. When they go to break, I hop over to Washington Journal. I will usually see if CNN or MSNBC are talking about something other than a missing white woman or immigration, and then I hop back to Rachel Maddow.
This morning, I heard Rachel bring up this very issue. I listened, shaking my head and muttering, and then I popped a Dane Cook CD in and laughed all the way to work. I guess I just needed it this morning – an escape from another day that begins with the latest way the Bush administration has devised to further erode our constitutional rights.
But, it was, at best, a temporary escape. For one thing, while I need those escapist moments to maintain some sanity, I am not now, nor have I ever been, someone who can stick her head in the sand and pretend that all is well. For another, I am solidly hooked on FDL, to the point that when it got to be almost 10:00 with no morning FDL post, I worried that Fiona might be sick, or Christy might have been on an early run to the pharmacy. I hope all is well.
This is a long way of getting to where my thoughts are this morning, and I apologize for taking you all on the scenic route.
I just don’t get it. I don’t get why people are not more upset about this. I don’t get why presumably smart people, who once understood and respected the Constitution, have apparently decided that they whatever ends they are trying to reach are so noble and high-minded, and we are supposed to be so impressed with their lofty goals that we should just assume that whatever they are doing is okay, even if it is totally unconstitutional. I don’t get why the Democrats seem to be taking the position that because they have no majority power, there is no value in being loud about their principles, and no point in standing up for what is right, and no point pushing back against what is wrong. I don’t get why they can just stand by as law after law is passed, as judge after judge is confirmed, as right after right is abridged, and think that they won’t be held responsible for the sea change this country is undergoing. And I don’t get how they think that those in power will not do whatever it takes to retain that power, and that our elections may soon resemble those “everybody voted for Saddam” elections that we used to say were representative of a totalitarian regime.
Is this still America? And if it is, how long will it be America if people do not act?
I don’t get it.
As someone who formerly ran an ISP I know how incredibly chilling this will be for many customers. Consider an adult married man or woman looking at adult porn. I know that many of these people will be extremely bothered by a system like this. Or consider a small business person doing their online banking. Especially someone who isn’t technically literate. The thought that records of their transactions are being kept (even if they are encrypted) will just drive them around the bend.
if I were in charge of anti-terrorism activities, I sure as hell would want to know who has substantial gun holdings … wait til the good ole boys realize the Guvmint has been building a database of shotgun owners !
Can we organize this here “internets” thingie,You know, all of us shrill ones and such….and start some kind of class action suit against these creeps? Do we have any recourse against our own government anymore?
yesterday I read an article by a cyber securrity expert:
http://www.startribune.com/562/story/463348.html
He had totally disagrees with the malarky ABU and Hayden are peddling about the domestice spying and the data mining. he thinks it’s a waste of time.
Imagine what damage Democrats could do by spying on key Republican constituencies- right-wing preachers and their extracurricular activities, family values politicians’ late-night phone calls, right-to-lifers’ family planning decisions. Let’s not give up a good thing.
Let’s hope the providers not only fear the operational costs but also–lawsuits.
Justin Rood over at TPM Muckraker is bird-dogging the Iranian badge story reported at FDL a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..dge-story/
Long story short, he can’t get no satisfaction out of the Wiesenthal Center on their sourcing and motivation.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/ar…..9.php#more
Anne at 48 — things are fine, I’m just a little under the weather (I caught Fi’s cold) and moving more slowly than usual this morning. Sat down to do my first article, then stumbled across this NYTimes piece, and scrapped what I was going to do in favor of this. Having one of those scattered brain days today, I’m afraid — but this needed discussion.
op99 at 55 — Last I heard from Taylor, she hadn’t gotten any answer out of them, either. Very odd, indeed.
Anne 46
Amen!
And thanks for ‘taking the scenic route,’ even tho it’s painful to read. Too close to my own feelings and, I’ll bet, a lot of others.
Moveon.org had a poll up just this week asking what issues mattered most to their readers. ALL seemed critically important, but I just had to choose “verifiable accurate elections.” Without that, I fear we’re to lose all the rest.
Living in OH doesn’t help my confidence in the system these days(!)
So glad to see that article by Bobby Kennedy Jr!
Want the proof of the analysis posted by looseheadprop? Look at the airline watch lists. False alarms, poor profiles, etc. They may not be absolutely useless, but you can see “useless” from there.
And the number of flyers pales in comparison to the numbers we’re talking about here. It makes no sense, to anyone who understands math and modelling. Unless, of course, chasing terrorists and kiddie porn pushers is not your primary concern.
God, this tin foil itches . . . unless it’s not really tin foil anymore! What if they’ve figured out how to tap our Reynolds Wrap?
Wasn’t ’searches for child pornography’ the excuse they gave a few months back, when they were leaning on the search engines? And then they added ‘terrorism’ just to make it easier to con people into going along with them?
Yeah, right, as if ‘Islamic terrorists’ are the biggest threat to us. I worry more about the ones in the big white buildings in DC.
Anne at 48
can’t seem to aim my fingers at the right ## today
message re yours: Adie at 58 sigh.
Let us not forget that they’ve already made it clear that they intend to target Journalists and Whistleblowers with the threat of prosecution. That and the fact that a little blackmail never hurt in turning a witness.
clb72 at 53, I hope you were kidding.
One, I don’t want to know what ANYONE is doing in the privacy of their homes and bedrooms. Two, I don’t even care if the preacher who is against abortion allows his own daughter to have one: that’s THEIR business. And I want other people’s business to be their business so that I can have some privacy in my life. Four, if it’s wrong for them, it’s wrong for us. It’s wrong – period.
Taking these indefensible acts of invasion of privacy and using them ourselves for our own political benefit will be just one more nail in America’s coffin. When (not if) we return to a majority in Congress, and we sit, once again, in the Oval Office, it is my hope that these kinds of activities are either stopped, or vetted with significant oversight and checks against abuse.
peterr at 19
“Just who is going to pay for the space to store all these records? Are ISP’s going to have to physically expand their bricks-and-mortar facilities to accomodate all the new stuff they’ll need to keep track of this? The way the net is growing, the size of the database would have to be enormous. Why, to even use it we’d need a supercomputer with massive storage capacities . . .”
Ah, not a problem. Back in the 90’s, Oakridge National Laboratories made a super computer from old junked PC’s and it was at the time the 4th fastest machine in the world. The project was called the “stone soupercomputer.” Look here for the history:
http://stonesoup.esd.ornl.gov/
The project has been junked since that time, and replaced by the “beowulf project,” which is a design for massively parallel computer systems using ordinary PC’s that dwarf traditional supercomputers like the Cray in performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_(computing)
Back before I retired, these are some of the books I used as reference when I did data mining research and statistical analysis:
Knowledge discovery in databases, by gregory Piatetsky-Shapiro, et al.
Windows NT Clustering blueprints, by SAMS publishing.
Storage is not a problem and neither is speed. Google uses massively parallel Linux clusters and artificial intelligence heuristics for all their stuff.
And hell, I retired ten years ago! This kind of storage, data mining, pattern recognition and speech recognition is trivial to this generation of geeks.
If you want more on developments in artificial intelligence, look at MIT media lab and the Santa Fe Institute.
http://www.media.mit.edu/
http://www.santafe.edu/
-sofistic
Plano (35) on right-wing talking heads: “They were all saying that they don’t mind if the gov spies on ‘em cuz:
It’ll keep ‘em safe.
They ain’t done nothin’ wrong, ergo they got nuthin’ to hide.”
Wingnut thinking turns the whole notion of innocent until proven guilty on its head. My response is “I’ve done nuthin’ wrong, so the government doesn’t need to spy, or listen to, or watch (or whatever!) me.”
I remember a few years ago there was much discussion of the new information age-that the US marketplace was evolving from a goods and services to an information economy. Back then did anyone talk about the government’s role in this new reality? This is an economic as well as political issue.
As I commented on Late Nite, we need to not only knock back these Bushco policies, but also elect leaders (Feingold, Lamont, Kennedy, Gore, etc.) who will proactively work to pass laws protecting citizens’ privacy rights.
Oh, and by the way, we’ve ALL done something wrong at one point or another. So, right wing talking head hypocrites, STFU.
Doug Bostrom @ 27
Yes, who are these “others” who are given the authority to pour over “our” lives?
Who watches these “others” when we have lost the checks and balances in our Constitution?
Christy,
Your confidence in the cost of the logs keeping us safe is misplaced, unfortunately. The cost of storage has been in absolute freefall for the last couple of decades, and shows no sign of bottoming out. Even if it’s a stretch to save the data now, it will be dead-nuts simple in a couple of years.
People are just not prepared for how quickly things change. As a small example — back when I was growing up, people talked about how impossibly huge the human genome was. How many thousands of phone books of data it was, for example. It truly was an incomprehensible size, one did not expect that it would ever be possible to ever record, much less transmit, that much information.
Now, of course, it fits on a IPod Nano, with room to spare. It’s just a qualitative difference.
Terabyte disk drives are just a few months away, terabyte tapes are not much further. A Terabyte is a few billion records of visits to web sites. And the cost halves every year.
Thad Beier
If you want to remain secure in your digital papers and effects, try a proxy like Tor. It’s sponsored by the EFF, it’s free, and it’s open source (so you can be sure there aren’t any backdoors in it).
Anyone heard if Denny Hastert is worried about Congressional computers being swept up in this? Separation of powers, and all that, don’tcha know.
…and can I just say for everyone today, enough with the freaking Mary Kay Laterneau stories, already. Blergh.
Thad Beier @ 8:24 -
Storage costs and such may be going down and halving every year, but the use of the web is going up, at least by that much.
So it’s a race, between storage designers and users. The past may not be a perfect predictor (as they say on the stock market ads) of the future, but the users haven’t lost this race in the past. Not even once. And it’s never been close.
For all the latest NSA domestic spying news, legal documents, statutes and more, see:
“The NSA Domestic Spying Scandal Resources.”
Shargash:
I will point out that it would be very hard for the government to track anonymous access from a place like Starbucks. Maybe coffeeshops will again become a hotbed of political ferment.
Not once the law has been “perfected”. After the DoJ has its way with forcing ISPs to retain logs, we’ll see a clampdown on anonymous internet access. Meetings will be held w/provisioners, pointing out that prosecuting child pornography and terrorism cases is hampered by the ability of offenders to gain anonymous access to the net. A little wave of protest will erupt, but ultimately who would disagree with such a reasonable request? After all, these are sick filth we’re talking about.
The solution to eliminating the bulk of “anonymous” access will be quite easy, because so much of this is not really anonymous at all. In order to get, for instance, a T-Mobile account (Starbucks), you use a credit card. No anonymity problem there; the Feds just need to set up access to T-Mobile’s accounting data.
The next largest loophole that needs closing in order to get full surveillance of the Internet in place is cash access, and that’s easily done by requiring customers to present a driver’s license or other government-issue ID when purchasing time. After all, if you have a problem with that, you must have something to hide. A little bit of legislation after more manipulation of public opinion is all that’s needed.
That would leave private open hotspots as the next largest means of anonymous access. That can be taken care of later, with further legislative extensions. After all, what crazy person would want a child pornographer to be using one’s Wifi AP?
One step at a time, that’s how this works.
It’s also worth pointing out that FCC policy already says that users of the Internet in the U.S. are permitted to do anything that does not transgress the needs of law enforcement. In other words, it is explicitly stated that law enforcement assumes all rights to Internet usage and then grants a subset of those rights to us, subject to their needs. That has not been fully tested in the courts, but the simple fact that the FCC has been able to make such policy without a hue and cry is very revealing of how complacent we are about such matters.
with all due respect, i think this is NOT about trust. if we want a system of government that depends on trust of the executive, then we could go back to a monarchy.
the whole idea (i thought) of the separation of powers and the bill of rights was an acknowledgement that people are human and with great power comes great temptation…. it was the height of rationality to build in protections so as to prevent the executive branch from aquiring the power of a king.
even if i trusted president bush – i would still be just as much opposed to this policy….. because this is NOT about what we think about president bush. this IS about our system of government and whether we are willing to throw away our constitutional protections.
Why should this administration add the Constitution’s destruction to the long list of atrocities committed against these children?
Using these photos to scare telecommunication companies into violating the privacy of American citizens is an act of terror, in the truest sense of the phrase.
It’s not just about trust – it’s about re-working our entire system of government, not as provided for by Constitutional amendment, but by Executive branch decisions negotiated with corporations.
How do you fundamentally change the Bill of Rights? The Constitution spells it out – but instead we have an Executive only approach, or more chillingly an Executive colluding with corporations so that they whole of the impact of government really relies upon the relationship of corporations and the Executive.
I’m pretty sure that is neither a democracy, a republic, nor a valid approach under any aspect of our Constitution. As a matter of fact, given the length of existence of corporations as legal entities, I can pretty much pick up the bouqet as a Constitutional scholar without 10 seconds of research on that one.
Tack on violation of law as state secrets to disenfranchise and legislative branch actions, and robbing jurisdiction from the courts and you have effectively made the Constitution worthless. I cannot understand how anyone with any still small lingering respect for the lives lost and sacrifices made for our Constitution continues to work for Gonzales & Co. They can collect a thousand Congressional inquiry scalps and they are still failures if they can’t stand behind the oaths they took.
Humm..
My earlier post about the kind of technology that can do what the kremlin, er, DOJ is asking didn’t show up.
thank you mary, you said it much better than i could.
Where does Gonzales get the right to show kiddie porn in a briefing to ISP and telco executives? Is there no indignity from which these children are immune?
Anne at 63- I was kidding! I’m a former ACLU intern and proud dues-paying mug-carrying member.
sofistic, it’s there (@64) – it’s just that the moderation filters are having a tough time today with such an immoderate administration . . .
I must have left the <snark> tags off the last two lines of my comment @19.
Thanks for the post Christy.
I am feeling so frustrated. What can we do ????
This administration is exacting an inside coup on our country, it’s people, and constitution. Imagine a foreign country invading our nation and imposing fascism. What would we do ?
The image of the lone man in Tienaman Square standing before the tank keeps coming to me. I wish there was a physical thing I could do. A tank to stand before, to stare down with the whole world watching. But this is so insidious.
Peterr says:
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:25 am
Anyone heard if Denny Hastert is worried about Congressional computers being swept up in this? Separation of powers, and all that, don’tcha know.
——————————————————————————–
I was thinking the same thing. I think the Congressman has to be plainly guilty, and the Feds have to have a valid search warrant, before Denny gets upset. No crime, no Separation of Powers issue, I guess.
For a while, I thought the Internet stood to be the most engaging force for spreading democracy since the invention of the press. But it seems that authoritarian governments are catching on and fighting back. First Google with it’s devilish deal with China. Now Gonzales with this.
I wonder if they’re sharing notes, the Chinese and the NSA, on how best to spy on their citizens.
40 Larry says:
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:35 am
My daughter, a gifted 15 year old college junior with double majors… Psychology & Arabic Language Studies… has already been visited on campus (2x) by the G man for her internet searches….
WOW, THIS IS SCARY.
Also, something the tech geeks I think mite be missing. I think they have a way of tracking us by our computers. Remember Intel was putting an ID number on its CPUs? A unique ## for each machine? Why would they want that? What possible legitimate purpose does that serve? Supposedly, they eliminated this.
And Msoft has been aggressive in “fighting software piracy” by making you tracking you and your computer when you install windows.
Who knows if they aren’t matching those to the internet searches or our banking or email accounts or credit cards when we buy stuff?
And this needle in the haystack stuff — why data mining, etc., doesn’t work for terrorism — makes my point exactly. They’re spying on their opposition not terrorism. They don’t give a crap about terrorism. They’re worried that all their lies will unravel.
They know who did 911 and it wasn’t Osama bin Forgotten.
Jeanine Garafola, AAR: “9/11 was an inside job.”
Osama + Sadam == Easter Bunny.
http://www.911truth.org
Conferences in all major cities. Chicago this weekend.
OfT: “Salam Pax sees the future of Baghdad”
By Swopa
Jun 2 2006 – 8:19am
“Beginning with an unintentional channeling of Nir Rosen, here are some excerpts from the latest post by Salam Pax in Baghdad:
In the 80s Kanan Makia wrote a book about Iraq under Saddam called The Republic of Fear. Today Saddam is in prison and we Iraqis are constantly being told that we have been liberated but when I look around I still see a Republic of Fear.
. . . I have newly found out that I should avoid getting out of Baghdad through a certain road to the south because the Iraqi Army battalion situated there really hates my family name. People driving through that route towards the city of Hilla have been arrested just because they have that name.
. . . I spent a whole morning going from one barber to the next asking them to tell me why they are so afraid and they just won’t on camera. . . . Physicians are also difficult, and so are bakers. . . . [One] told me “you do realize we have families who depend on us staying alive”. I know, and I know why everybody is so reluctant to talk. Because we don’t know what is the next thing that will get us killed.
. . . Kadhimiya is set up these days like a fortress. Entrances are tightly controlled, no unknown cars get in and they basically had their own secret police there; when I lingered too long with my camera in front of the shrine I was quickly called inside and a security guard demanded IDs and wanted to look through the film. . . .
So people I give you the future of Baghdad. Districts will become tightly controlled fortresses that are ethnically/religiously homogeneous. Outsiders are only let in after being inspected and checked. I really want to go back to Kadhimiya but only after I get my fake Shia ID.”
“You know things are bad in Iraq when ethnic cleansing becomes a cause for hope.”
OT – Bush to back gay marriage ban amendment:
President Bush will promote a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage on Monday, the eve of a scheduled Senate vote on the cause that is dear to his conservative backers.
The amendment would prohibit states from recognizing same-sex marriages. To become law, the proposal would need two-thirds support in the Senate and House, and then be ratified by at least 38 state legislatures.
It stands little chance of passing the 100-member Senate, where proponents are struggling to get even 50 votes. Several Republicans oppose the measure, and so far only one Democrat %u2014 Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska %u2014 says he will vote for it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w…..iage_x.htm
Anne at #48-I JUST DON’T GET IT. Me either-I sent the Gore speech on the NSA to a friend who I thought would get it. His reponse was “I don’t care I have nothing to hide” You know, they aren’t coming for me attitude. Well, someday they just might. They might be standing outside his front door right now. If we don’t stop them we’ll be like Larry at #40-We’ll have G-men talking to our kids. Talk about your crowd control. Well, I just read 1776-It only took George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, four generals and about 2,000 other revolutionaries to change the course of the revolution at Trenton. That by the way was before the internet.
Katymine @ 15
An excellent point about the criminal contribution and facilitation to the Nazi and Axis fascist expansion provided by international corporations during this period. This was probably one of the first and sadly, one of the worst examples of radical and ruthless ‘Corporate Globalism’. Or given the final product and effective sanitation of this history, a more proper term would be Corporate Goebellism.
IBM, like AG Farben, Ford and others have effectively escaped the proper historical scrutiny of their participation in these atrocities…They and others could use a reminder…
Perhaps the shaming exercises need to move from the media (sick, shameless shills) and up the feudal food chain to the castles of the present corporate barons. Maybe they need a clear and unequivocal reminder of their contribution to fascist history, lest they forget and repeat their transgressions.
IMHO, ( who am I kidding?, I’ve never had a fucking humble opinion ever![WAIK?INHAFHOE!]) Netroots should consider developing blog-powered, grassroots, economic boycotts and shaming campaigns that target those companies currently aiding and abetting the Bush junta with historical reminders of those sad precedents.
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
George Orwell
Thank you Christy. This has got to be one of your best ever … the dots do connect, this group of people are determined to shred the constitution and destroy what is remaining of this great democracy.
twolf1 says:
June 2nd, 2006 at 8:58 am
OT – Bush to back gay marriage ban amendment:
President Bush will promote a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage on Monday, the eve of a scheduled Senate vote on the cause that is dear to his conservative backers.
The amendment would prohibit states from recognizing same-sex marriages. To become law, the proposal would need two-thirds support in the Senate and House, and then be ratified by at least 38 state legislatures.
It stands little chance of passing the 100-member Senate, where proponents are struggling to get even 50 votes. Several Republicans oppose the measure, and so far only one Democrat %u2014 Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska %u2014 says he will vote for it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w…..marriage_x .htm
———————————————————-
Less than 50 votes would be a pretty dramatic loss. It’s almost a shame it’s a 2/3 vote and not a 50-50 one–I’d love the drama of having Dick Cheney break the tie.
OT – “Dear MoveOn member,
The results are in. We’re proud to announce the MoveOn member choice for our new, positive agenda:
Health care for all
Energy independence through clean, renewable sources
Democracy restored
These three goals were nominated, debated, and overwhelmingly selected by more than 100,000 people in local house parties and then online. Most groups would say this is a far too risky way to make such a big decision. But it’s this grassroots consensus that makes this agenda different%u2014and powerful.”
Works for me!
It is all so overwhelming scary – and it’s reason #5284 (connected to all other reasons) why we MUST take at least one house of congress in November. Maybe we can survive the next 6 months, but if the criminals remain omnipotent, controlling all branches of government, for the next 2-1/2 years, I’m so afraid the nation will be lost forever (or for a very long time).
Stopping them from stealing the election is the best thing we can do, I think. Somehow we must figure this out – have a plan. And maybe the first step is helping RFK Jr’s Rolling Stone piece as much attention as possible?
The American people must wake up to the fact that horrible criminals are running this country. Until the masses get that…
OT – but re: Fitz.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/…..9048863851
I’m frustrated with the pace of the Plame investigation – but ya gotta love how snarky the U.S. Attorney’s office in Chicago is (read the last couple of paragraphs).
Tom – Chicago
IP addresses
In the end, it is all about trust and integrity. As one who had access to the most intimate records of students in universities, the only thing assuring a student’s privacy was their trust in the system, and my integrity in keeping it private. If my boss (a dean in the universities I worked in) had asked or demanded that I look up individual records and index them to other databases, I would not hesitate to tell them “No!”
But I would have to have put my job on the line. Fortunately, I was a tenured faculty member as well as a researcher, so I could take a complaint to the faculty senate and they would have been all over the administration with legal action. I was never asked to do that, and never in my dreams would I have desired to do it on my own.
But that is not how the current administration thinks.
-sofistic
prescient (1978):
Talking Heads – “Warning Sign”
Warning sign, warning sign,
I see it but I pay it no mind.
Hear my voice, hear my voice,
It’s saying something and I hope you’re concentrating
I’ve got money now, I’ve got money now,
C’mon baby, c’mon baby.
Warning sign of things to come (take it over, take it over)
Someone’s talking on my telephone (when we’re older,
when we’re older)
Hear my voice, move my hair.
I move it around a lot, but I don’t care. (what I remember)
…
Warning sign, of things to come (turn me over, turn me over)
…
Do you remember
What it is that you remember
Baby remember
Baby remember.
Mary #76
Bravura comment!
Scrounging for a silver lining I can only come up with the idea that, to the extent that we retain the ability to organize, consumer action is a means to affect corporate actions. But I’m sure that will also be curtailed.
So, when the internet goes down, do we have a backup?
A few days ago I read a piece by Tom Englehart on the millions of crossed wires in the intelligence community. If you go to http://www.tomdispatch.com/ and scroll down to “The Tangled Web of American Intelligence” you will find some good reading on the subject.
Marjie C.
Expensive to store all that data? Well who says that a cash offer is not on the table by the DOJ?
Taxpayers $$: it is just a drop in the bucket, besides the more they spend the sooner they get to raid Social Security.
Guess who is in Baghdad today? Speaker of the House, Denny Hastert ! Maybe advising the new Iraqi Parliament which has taken 5 months to form an incomplete government? Maybe Denny doesnt realize that Lobbyists “K” Street in Iraq stands for “Killing” ?
Miss Dean Broder’s getting a little testy about all the questions about marriages, methinks:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01267.html
punaise,
That’s funny. I’ve always thought about Bush claiming to be a “Compassionate Conservative” and how that squares with Talking Heads ‘77 “No Compassion.” This one is perfect for Bush:
In a world
Where people have problems
In this world
Where decisions are a way of life
Other peoples problems they overwhelm my mind
They say compassion is a virtue, but I dont have the time
So many people…have their problems
Im not interested…in their problems
I guess ive…experienced some problems
But now ive…made some decisions
Takes a lot of time to push away the nonsense
Take my compassion…push it as far as it goes
My interest levels dropping, my interest level is dropping
Ive heard all I want to, I dont want to hear any more
Just for grins guys — check out this Youtube about a DEA agent teaching gun safety — who then shoots himself in the foot.
It’s just a simple metaphore…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHtlxfcuilM
Bush pretty well broke every law just to get the big chair. Why would anyone be so delusional to think he would be beholden to any laws now?
Robert F. Kennedy was on with Tucker Carlson last night. Have your Valium handy. http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002900.htm
Sighhhh.
What will it take to get Americans to take to the streets, screaming for justice? The return of the draft? $10/gallon gas prices?
Christ, if this news doesn’t, is there any hope at all?
I was starting to feel pretty good as of late: Fitz still has Rove by the balls and the White House sweating bullets; Bush approval ratings in the low 30s; the splintering of Congressional Republicans; the almost total erosion of support frokm Bush’s psycho fundamentalist base…
Then, the RFK report in Rolling Stone hits, and now this. Talk about the balloon being popped!
What the hell will it take for Americans to give BushCo the same fate as the Romanian people did for Ceausescu in 1989?
What will it take?
Thanks MarkC, I missed Mary’s 76.
The SC vote on whistleblower’s really knocked me for a loop. IMO the pressure to win decisively in both houses in November looms larger than ever. Even in the rosiest of scenaris, lawmakers will have to craft legislation that is Scalito and Roberts-proof; and can override a Presidential veto.
Let’s hope Justice Stevens remains in good health.
Born: April 20, 1920
Party: Republican
Time served: 30 years, 5 months, 13 days
Position: associate Justice
Nominated by: Ford
Commissioned: December 17, 1975
Sworn in: December 19, 1975
OT, let’s hope a lot of other Republicans see the light as Stevens has.
TeddySanFran
What worries me about the Broder chat is where he says:
The only conclusion I can draw from the recent statements and actions on Iran is that the Bush administration and its allies have decided to bring the Iran nuclear program to a head–sooner rather than later. No one expects Iran to accept the terms we laid out for the start of direct negotations, so the path will then be open for UN sanctios. We have seen this sequence before, with Iraq, and we know where that led. I am not certain that President Bush wants a second (or third, counting Afghanistan) war, but it could be a prelude to some sort of preemptive strike against Iran.
I know we all know that, but I just am so angry that it is said with such casual disregard for the fact that it means:
DEAD BODIES OF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD NOT YET DIE.
From Broder’s on-line chat:
“New Hampshire: Thanks Mr. Broder for taking my question!
Yesterday an article was published in Rolling Stone written by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. It documents a chilling and very well sourced account of the deliberate machinations of the Republican party in actually stealing the presidential election of 2004. Why is there no coverage of this important and devastating article in the Post this morning? Have you read it?
From the Rolling Stone article:
“Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush’s victory as nut cases in ”tinfoil hats,” while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election. The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as ”conspiracy theories,”(1) and The New York Times declared that ”there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale.”(2)”
When will the MSM take up this issue as a real one, instead of dismissing it out of hand?
David S. Broder: I have not read the article, but I will do so.”
THANK YOU, New Hampshire!
whoo-hooo! He took my question! you’re welcome mc!
What next, a friggin webcam in every household?
angie-Way to Go!
Dover 102: touchee.
on a more whistful note, their innocent
“Don’t Worry About the Government”
I see the states, across this big nation
I see the laws made in Washington, D.C.
I think of the ones I consider my favorites
I think of the people that are working for me
Some civil servants are just like my loved ones
They work so hard and they try to be strong
I’m a lucky guy to live in my building
They own the buildings to help them along
…
I wouldn’t worry ’bout me
…
Don’t you worry ’bout ME…
then again, maybe it’ll come to
“Life During Wartime“
This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco,
this ain’t no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey,
I ain’t got time for that now
Transmit the message, to the receiver,
hope for an answer some day
I got three passports, a couple of visas,
you don’t even know my real name
High on a hillside, the trucks are loading,
everything’s ready to roll
I sleep in the daytime, I work in the nightime,
I might not ever get home
…
Trouble in transit, got through the roadblock,
we blended with the crowd
We got computer, we’re tapping pohne lines,
I know that ain’t allowed
…
Try to be careful, don’t take no chances,
you better watch what you say
“Terrorist plots [have] no well-defined profile and attacks are very rare. This means that data-mining systems won’t uncover any terrorist plots until they are very accurate, and that even very accurate systems will be so flooded with false alarms that they will be useless.”
Exactly right. As someone said here a few days ago, “when you look for a needle in a haystack, why do you want to double the size of the haystack?”
We know that terrorism is not the administration’s motivation — it is their excuse to bring us a police state. Why can’t our [expletive deleted] Dem congresscritters understand this???? Are they part of the plot too?
Broder just linked to the Rolling Stone article!!!
More is not smarter. As several have noted above, you can have all the dots but if you are a dope at connecting them all you get is garbage in garbage out. Also when you are looking for a needle in a haystack, Rule One is don’t add more hay. This idea that more is better is a hallmark of this Administration’s overreaching but a fumbler is a fumbler is a fumbler and if they had a cop in every household they still would get it wrong.
punaise,
Ha. I was just listening to “Don’t Worry About the Government” when you posted that.
What a band that was. Incidentally, David Byrne’s website is great. His journal is always entertaining and relevant.
angie, they can’t say you never tried
This passage from They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer seems more and more relevant every day. I first found it in 2001, and have watched in horror as this country slowly aligns itself with the events and attitudes described in that book.
You can find a longer excerpt at http://www.press.uchicago.edu/…..11928.html , but I really would like to recommend that you buy the book and read the whole thing.
Larry says: (@ #40)
June 2nd, 2006 at 7:35 am
“My daughter, a gifted 15 year old college junior with double majors Psychology & Arabic Language Studi has already been visited on campus (2x) by the G man for her internet searches”
Larry, Do you know what they wanted to know?
Dover B
I suppose we shouldn’t hijack a mid-day thread w/ Late Nite musical musings, so just this last indulgence. Love me some Talking Heads. Remain in Light is one of my five desert island albums. My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (Byrne/Eno) is seared into my musical consciousness. The Catherine Wheel music/dance project, also great.
Sorta lost track of David Byrne in recent years. Thanks for the link.
Now back to our regularly secluded government listening program.
15 year old college junior? dayaaam!
OT
Excellent read.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n11/print/bace01_.html
Why read Clausewitz when Shock and Awe can make a clean sweep of things?
Andrew Bacevich
“Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq by Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor
(snippets)
“The events of 11 September 2001 killed thousands, left many thousands more bereft, and horrified countless millions who merely bore witness. But for a few, 9/11 suggested an opportunity. In the inner circles of the United States government men of ambition seized on that opportunity with alacrity. Far from fearing a ‘global war on terror’, they welcomed it, certain of their ability to bend war to their purposes. Although the ensuing conflict has not by any means run its course, we are now in a position to begin evaluating the results of their handiwork.”
“For the war’s architects, Iraq was not a danger to avoid but a strategic opportunity,less a destination than a point of departure. In their eyes, 2003 was not 1945, but 1939: not a climax but the opening gambit of a vast enterprise largely hidden from public view. Allusions to Saddam as a new Hitler notwithstanding, they did not see Baghdad as Berlin but as Warsaw, a preliminary objective. For the war’s most determined proponents- Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz-toppling Saddam was the first phase of what was expected to be a long campaign. In Iraq they intended to set precedents, thereby facilitating other actions to follow…”
Larry– how proud you must be of her. What an interesting double major, too. wow.
What an awful experience for her and you, though. Harrassment and intimidation of a minor? hmm
Dear Cozumel @ 92
OT – “Dear MoveOn member,
The results are in. We’re proud to announce the MoveOn member choice for our new, positive agenda:
Health care for all
Energy independence through clean, renewable sources
Democracy restored
These three goals were nominated, debated, and overwhelmingly selected by more than 100,000 people in local house parties and then online. Most groups would say this is a far too risky way to make such a big decision. But it’s this grassroots consensus that makes this agenda different%u2014and powerful.”
Works for me!
I voted too and was hoping that election and campaign reform would have topped that list. The issues that were chosen are vitally important, but with all due respect, unless we can accurately cast and count our votes than all the other issues become meaningless. It has to be a national issue and regulated federally (although these days that’s a scary thought). Maybe Bobby Kennedey’s article will have some impact.
Chris Bower’s has an interesting diary over at kos today on the subject. we also need committed progressives to scrutinize the polls on election day. We do it here in a small town of a few thousand. It’s mind numbing work, writing down each person’s name when it’s announced and checking them against lists. Hard to know how that would work in an urban area. But we have to do something about it because it won’t happen otherwise.
punaise,
OK. My last post on the subject, too. Ghosts was just re-mastered and released (I got it last week). On the Bush of Ghosts website, you can actually download individual tracks from a couple songs and remix them yourself. Some people have redone the songs with Bush’s NSA speeches in them.
I’m not worried about them tracking my internet connections or phone calls, or reading my mail, or warrantless searches. Why should I be? That’s all so twentieth century, pre 9/11 and all that.
Soon we will all have implanted chips that using GPS will track our every movement 24 hours a day. Hey, my dog is already microchipped. With just small incremental improvements in technology these chips will also be able to record and transmit everything we see and hear. Why bother going through someone’s hard drive, or searching for documents, or listening in on phone calls when you can get the raw data on what was actually on the computer screen, what papers were actually read and whom you talked to and what about streamed to the proper authorities?
The idea of privacy will be as quaint as the Geneva Conventions. Invasion of privacy? What privacy? As soon as you interact with another person or entity physically or electronically it will be deemed that you have no expectation of privacy. It’s not like they will monitor your thoughts, which of course are still private. For now.
Of course, this will be done only to protect us from terrorists and child molesters. Trust me on that.
KarenJG, i also found mayer’s book a few years ago…. and have had a similar reaction.
here’s another bit from a later chapter… it has reminded me of the response from many of our dem leaders:
Dover B – gotcha
Sonate @ 144
Do you think? Exhibit# 1: Jane Harman.
heh, punaise @ 118– you are so unbelievably quick and talented. ;)
Anne at 48–I’m with you. What’s with the Dem law-makers? The only answer I can come up with is that they don’t want to receive any anth*ax letters. Or they’re more interested in not having Karl interfere with their upcoming elections. It’s simply incredible that so few people have the integrity and courage to speak up.
And with regard to the issue of gay marriage, how better to waste the time of our lawmakers to keep them from doing any real work.
I’m so disgusted.
Oops.
That should have been Corporate Goebbelism
He who controls the historical fascist character spellchecker…
~
Four words: google anonymous web surfing.
It isn’t too hard to see how the available services could be used to make it very difficult to track, rather like the mixmaster e-mail anonymiser: once again, the bad are slightly inconvenienced, and we lose our civil rights.
Way to go Angie-getting Broder to link to the Rolling Stone piece – moocha smoochas for you at yearlyKos.
angie 132 – heh heh. tried to keep it under the radar; figured you’ve heard reference to that song a million times before….
selise #129
Oh, dear. I’d forgotten that part but it definitely suits our Dem leadership to a “t” doesn’t it?
I was looking for another passage I remembered but can’t find it, but since we’re EPUd anyway, here’s another one that struck me as I was looking – and as the wife of a professor, also seems very pertinent to today:
new thread
You are missing the point on the date retention proposal. Clearly the government already has this data in a crude form that has been captured through NSA intercepts. All emails and traffic and searches requests are captured. There is little doubt about that considering the public disclosed information avalible.
However this data is in a form that is costly to search, and is inadmissable in court unless the evidence can remained sealed. By forcing ISP’s to retain the data, it is now avalaible for use in court, without giving away sources and methods of NSA, Outer-Net records and profiles. So what is being proposed is a retention of data that is available for use in court cases. Basically without this data retention, any fishing expedition or data mining that produces results from NSA Outer-Net records is extremly difficult to use in court.
So to be perfectly clear the NSA Outer-Net records provide the pond to fish without constitutional questions, and the Data retention by ISP’s provides opportunity to “Keep your Fish” from Data mining results. The concept is great except that it can be used for political retribution, and who is to say who did the searches? They could come from someone intercepting your internet connection, or they could be completely fabricated like the election results in Ohio.
I started in computers on the ARPANET, and this propsal is very dangerous for political repression. The potentual for fabricated retained records is extreme. It is very similar in concept to paperless voting, and central tabulation of results from an election. There is no way to verify the data is accurate.
Karen JG at 120
This quote illustrates exactly what I was trying to say yesterday. That’s how the mafia works. They whittle away at you tiny bit by tiney bit, until they own you.
This is organized crime 101.
Morris Sheppard at 128
I forget where I read it. But yesteray I read an article about a company that makes those chips taht go in the dog having the congressman from their district offer an ammendment to the immigration bill to require the “guest workers” to get chipped.
I did not have time to verify this and don’t vouch for it’s veracity, but my eyes almost fell out of my head when I read th article.
Maybe they can use the “records” to rid the DHS of the child molesters / pornographers who thrive around the place.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..es-at-dhs/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w…..rest_x.htm
One word: Tor. Download it, set it up, use it. You lose some surfing speed but you gain anonymity and Big Brother cannot work it out. That handles anonymous browsing – or you could use the anonymizer for a web-based solution. For email you should learn one of the following AND USE IT: PGP, OpenPGP/GnuPG. This takes care of privatizing your email messages. Coupled to Tor, you can anonymize it as well. Or get/use a Hushmail account (or related). You can also read up on nyms and nym servers for anonymous messaging.
With tor, the more people use it, and in particular, set their system up as a Tor proxy as well (if you have a good broadband connection) the faster the browsing performance. You can also set it up so that it operates only for certain websites so you can cordon off certain sites from Big Brother prying eyes.
There are ways to thwart Big Brother’s spy aims – they take a LITTLE effort but once setup, they are setup and not difficult to use.
To follow up my previous post about Tor…for the non-intimidated (by computers and software) the site you wish to visit is: http://tor.eff.org. You can count on anything sponsored/promoted by EFF to be something worthwhile. For PGP: http://www.pgpi.org and for OpenGPG/GnuPG: http://www.gnupg.org (for Linux and Macs and Windoze).
For the rather arcane nym mail and nym servers (nym is taken from “pseudonym”): http://www.iusmentis.com/techn…..s/nym.html
Trying again. I tried previously and my message appears to have vanished into the NSA bit bucket.
One word: Tor. Download it, set it up, use it. You lose some surfing speed but you gain anonymity and Big Brother cannot work it out. That handles anonymous browsing – or you could use the anonymizer for a web-based solution. For email you should learn one of the following AND USE IT: PGP, OpenPGP, and GnuPG. This takes care of privatizing your email messages. Coupled to Tor, you can anonymize it as well. Or get/use a Hushmail account (or related). You can also read up on nyms and nym servers for anonymous messaging.
With tor, the more people use it, and in particular, set their system up as a Tor proxy as well (if you have a good broadband connection) the faster the browsing performance. You can also set it up so that it operates only for certain websites so you can cordon off certain sites from Big Brother prying eyes.
There are ways to thwart Big Brother’s spy aims – they take a LITTLE effort but once setup, they are setup and not difficult to use.
For Tor and info about it, the site you wish to visit is: http://tor.eff.org. You can count on anything sponsored/promoted by EFF to be something worthwhile. For PGP: http://www.pgpi.org and for OpenGPG/GnuPG: http://www.gnupg.org (for Linux and Macs and Windoze).
For the rather arcane nym mail and nym servers (nym is taken from “pseudonym”): http://www.iusmentis.com/techn…..s/nym.html
What hath Bush wrought?? Think about this…Had there been an effective enforcement of our immigration laws decades ago, Gonzales would not be our AG. If ever there was incentive to enforce our immigration laws, Gonzales would be the poster child to inspire that incentive.
Whaddy think, Christy, this is a free country? We’ve already lost. There will be no election, the Bush dictatorship blew up the World Trade Center, and we will eventually wake up one morning to them rounding people up for the FEMA concentration camps.
The Democracy is over
Well, I’m with Christy–this is a wolf dressed up in sheep’s clothing. It’s a great excuse. Like the word “terrorism” it produces an emotional response that justifies all kinds of things. These measures are rationalized because they’re going to protect kids, but this is Nixon’s enemies list x 68,000,000. Horrible.
Yes, the cost would be prohibitive, but the administration has a carrot to dangle if you think about it. Is it not a strange coincidence that tiered internet service is being discussed concurrently with this latest attempt at an unconscionably massive data grab?
Let’s see what else we can find on the “back burner,” as it were.
I know this is creeping fascism , I know, but it is also an opportunity when you think about.
Like the open government project at MIT that was mapping the state. We could do that with the storage we all have and the right P2P client ( Freenet? )
We can map their entire death star complex and using our superior open source analyis locate the weakness’s. The net itself was a pentagon project originally and that didn’t work out so well for them did it.
Also our database can respect the forth ammendment – we can keep and store every detail of every public servants life but private citizens could be protected by encryption layers requiring probable cause to release to qualified investigative delegates.
This citizens intelligence agency is already an informal reality – it wouldn’t need much to set it up as a running concern that should strike terror into the heart of any totalitarian state fascist. Give us lemons and we’ll make lemonade so long as living well is the best revenge.
Fuck you fascist pigs – your fucked motherfuckers.
Cross posted from my blog:
Subj: Child porn
Christy, I just love your blog*, but I’ve got to clue you in on something. You’re using the wrong term.
When the FBI search’s a hard drive and finds pictures of children having sex with children, adults, and even animals, that’s not “child porn.”
That’s documented child sexual abuse and rape.
“Child porn” is the stuff you see every day on TV, in commercials and in the movies.
Update:
Christy’s post wasn’t so much about child porn as it was about the government wanting to invade your privacy in order to fight the problem, except that her mention of it triggered one of my pet peeves. And maybe I’m a little unfair to call her on it. So I’ll just explain my peeve.
People use the term child porn to refer loosely to two different social problems (which I would further isolate into three).
1. Child slavery, rape, and sexual abuse, which of course is the most horrific of the three. The people who engage in this crime often document it with photographs. Technically, such photographs could be described as “child porn,” but the real crime (in my view) was the rape and abuse. I don’t know how many child rapists there are.
2. The documentation of the first crime finds its way into circulation around the internet, apparently satisfying the impulses of a (much larger?) community of child porn enthusiasts. This probably amounts to further “abuse” of the children in question; I don’t argue that point. But the crime of possessing and viewing the porn is not of the same character as the crime of creating it. Yet law enforcement officials tend to believe that the market for child porn causes the porn to be made in order to satisfy the market, thus child porn being a root cause of child abuse. They also tend to believe viewing it stimulates further people into committing the first crime. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know. By itself, it’s certainly a major social problem.
3. But while we’re on the subject of social problems, let’s not forget the sexualization of children by our society – which is very pervasive and not on the books as a crime. I’ll skip over Brook Shields and Britney Spears (prior to age 18) and take a milder example: The other day I was at the Burger King and I saw posters for the toys you could get with the children’s meal. The boys would get alpha male stuff having to do with armored robots. The girls would get stuff that would outfit them as a “Passion Princess” (if I recall the description correctly). The picture was of an Arabian princess with big luscious lips and a come-hither look. Do you not think this is a social problem?
So my point is:
1. Let’s call pictures of actual sexual abuse and rape what they are: Documentation of actual sexual abuse and rape.
2. Let’s also call the sexualization children in our media what it is: child porn.
Am I making sense?
This is their pattern: using some gut-instinct issue to forestall debate and force policy in a direction they want. And that direction is always toward more surveillance power, more ability to control information, more ability to quash dissent. Ratcheting us ever further toward the authoritarian police state that is their idea of utopia.
I have trouble distinguising whether Albert Gonzales is neo-Gestapo or neo-KGB.
And when did the Republican Party become a member of the “Axis of Evil”? Did they just join recently or were they a charter member?
I think more and more U.S. citizens are awakening to the utter vileness and corruption of the Republican Party. More and more U.S. citizens are realizing that none of us, for the sake of our nation’s children, can turn our backs on the Republican Party, because either the Republicans will steal our wallet or stab us, and our children, in the back.
But they’re Christian, you might protest. Yeah, right, and George W. Bush is the greatest president ever in American history. Scout’s honor. Don’t make me laugh.
Oh Dear! I fear I have become a radical. You know, one of those far-left crazies that is afraid of her own government; who wants to warn her adult children of what to look out for but won’t use the internet or her phone for those warnings; who wonders if she should take the chance on flying after all this summer and if she does, should she make arrangements online. You know what I’m talking about! Just the opposite of Rush, right? Same pardigm, just a bunch of crazies trying to destroy a rational government. Is it wise to vote and will my vote be canvassed if I do? Will my vote be tabulated?
What’s even worse is that I truly am getting fearful. {{Shudder}}
So the AG wants to do the same thing as the EU? The horror! The horror!
Seixon — so, let me get this straight, oh ye of the party of “Freedom Fries,” and ye of the party of the pissing match with Justice Ginsburg and others regarding the interpretation of American law by looking to international jurisprudence — suddenly the EU is the arbiter of all things which fit the American way? Bwahahahahaha. Nice try — but the actions of our President have to fit our laws as they are written. You want European laws and interpretations, then tell the GOP to go out there and sell it to the American public — make sure you tell them to go with that “Well, the EU does it.” argument, because I hear Rush Limbaugh’s been itching to cuddle up with the French for a while.
Christy,
I’m not a Republican, so that whole “haha, go tell that to your party” spiel ain’t gon work on lil ol me. ;)
I’m not a partisan absolutist, either, so I have more than enough room to agree with things Democrats do, things Republicans do, and things those crazy Europeans are doing. Oh wait, I am European. Never mind.
Nice dodge, though, not having to deal with the fact that the people that reside at Firedoglake often look to Europe as a moral compass for how “liberal” or “progressive” things should be. Unless, you know, they are doing the exact same thing as Bush. Then it just becomes the elephant in the room.
I swear, you “progressives” must have a mansion to fill all those elephants in the room(s). You know, kind of like the Canadian terror plot that was just foiled. Add one more elephant into the liberal Ivory Mansion.
It must suck being a partisan, having to always have your back up against the wall to protect your party rather than doing what is right.
What part of my article being about a violation of our current constitutional principles in the United States was difficult for you to understand, Seixon? My point in the retort was fairly straightforward, I thought — if the laws in the EU are what you and your political buddies think is appropriate, than you should amend the laws so that the actions taken or demanded by the DoJ and this Administration FIT the laws — and so they are not acting in ways that are contrary to current legal standards. But Republicans, as you could no doubt tell from my response, in this country at least, sure as hell are going to have a difficult time of selling that to their constituency due to them spending so much time making fun of Europeans and EU laws. It must suck always trying to pick a fight by ignoring the obvious and hoping everyone else does the same. Bottom line: the laws, as written, in the US make this sort of action questionable, especially if it is geared toward making illegally seized information (via domestic wiretapping by the NSA without a warrant) usable in court via a backdoor subpoena. The President doesn’t get to just make up the laws as he goes along. And what the EU is doing doesn’t mean squat to what our laws say at the moment. And no amount of dancing around the subject makes what you say true.