Comments on: So Much for the Pre-Election Troop Withdrawal? http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/ Firedoglake weblog Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:30:25 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: merlallen http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124831 merlallen Wed, 31 May 2006 11:37:15 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124831 <p>I’ve asked a lot of bush supporters to name one single thing that bush has done that benefits all Americans. Just one, or even one thing he’s done right.<br /> Most stopped talking to me, the others ignored the question.</p> I’ve asked a lot of bush supporters to name one single thing that bush has done that benefits all Americans. Just one, or even one thing he’s done right.
Most stopped talking to me, the others ignored the question.

]]> By: bob h http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124818 bob h Wed, 31 May 2006 10:27:14 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124818 <p>Karl Rove’s advice to Bush that Iraq would lock up the national security issue for the Republicans and bolster them in 2002 and 2004 was undoubtedly a key reason for the war. Rove had blood on his hands.</p> Karl Rove’s advice to Bush that Iraq would lock up the national security issue for the Republicans and bolster them in 2002 and 2004 was undoubtedly a key reason for the war. Rove had blood on his hands.

]]> By: A.Citizen http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124526 A.Citizen Wed, 31 May 2006 00:30:32 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124526 <p>Git ready for that ‘helicopter moment’. Thing of it is that you in this thread who are saying we need to ‘fix’ this etc. do not understand what has happened.</p> <p>We lost.</p> <p>‘Victory’ will not be ours.</p> <p>Not because we didn’t implement the liar Powell’s doctrine, which is a crock of shit anyway. </p> <p>Iraq is not our country.</p> <p>We cannot impose our will on the citizens there. Whether we are doing it to steal their oil or ‘bring them Democracy’ does not matter. We cannot impose our will on another sovereign people.</p> <p>Don’t agree?</p> <p>Well then, you don’t know much about history. No nation-state has ever imposed the sort of cultural and societal change on another that the Idiot BushMonkey claimed he was going to on Iraq and the rest of the Middle-East.</p> <p>Not one.</p> <p>Plenty have tried. Some for decades, the French then America vs. Vietnam; some at the cost of millions dead, Germany vs. Russia WWII; some to become free, America vs. England 1776.</p> <p>To maintain that this can be done is a sure sign that you are at the least a jingoist and at the worst a racist.</p> <p>The only option for us now is to leave Iraq.</p> <p>Warm up the choppers!</p> Git ready for that ‘helicopter moment’. Thing of it is that you in this thread who are saying we need to ‘fix’ this etc. do not understand what has happened.

We lost.

‘Victory’ will not be ours.

Not because we didn’t implement the liar Powell’s doctrine, which is a crock of shit anyway.

Iraq is not our country.

We cannot impose our will on the citizens there. Whether we are doing it to steal their oil or ‘bring them Democracy’ does not matter. We cannot impose our will on another sovereign people.

Don’t agree?

Well then, you don’t know much about history. No nation-state has ever imposed the sort of cultural and societal change on another that the Idiot BushMonkey claimed he was going to on Iraq and the rest of the Middle-East.

Not one.

Plenty have tried. Some for decades, the French then America vs. Vietnam; some at the cost of millions dead, Germany vs. Russia WWII; some to become free, America vs. England 1776.

To maintain that this can be done is a sure sign that you are at the least a jingoist and at the worst a racist.

The only option for us now is to leave Iraq.

Warm up the choppers!

]]> By: green917 http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124461 green917 Tue, 30 May 2006 22:49:48 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124461 <p>#118 - Anthony, although I applaud your resolution to our “fixing” Iraq, sadly we are way beyond any possible military solution. In point of fact, as Rep. Murtha has so eloquently pointed out (and ALL the facts on the ground support his contentions), our continued presence is exacerbating the situation. This war was never winnable militarily regardless of which of the myriad of decisions that BushCo gave us for why we went to war in Iraq in the 1st place you choose to subscribe to (all of which were lies I may add). The biggest problem here is that many members of the misadministration (including our Secretary of State) view the use of diplomacy as a sign of weakness when, in fact, it is a sign of strength. This war has never been about “bringing Democracy to Iraq” or finding Weapons of Mass Destruction (which virtually everyone in our intelligence community repeatedly told the White House weren’t there) or even removing Sadaam Hussein from power (his country had been effectively crippled by 10 years of sanctions). This war is, and always has been, about American hegemony. Go read any of the multiple papers written by the Project for a New American Century (www.newamericancentury.org) addressing America’s role in the world and it will all become clear to you. At any rate, our continued military presence in Iraq is causing a great deal of the strife and violence that are happening there. The ONLY viable solution to the quagmire that Iraq has become is for the Iraqis to work in concert with their neighbors in the region (yes, even Iran) to reach a level of stability on their own. They’re never going to get there if we continue to coddle them and hold their hand. I’m reminded of the first time I took the training wheels off of my daughter’s bike. She didn’t experience a sense of accomplishment (”Daddy, I’m doing it by myself”) until I let go of the seat. It’s time for the US to let go of the seat of Iraq and watch things from a small distance (As Rep. Murtha suggested, staging marines in Kuwait or Qatar) in case they stumble. Of course, in order to do that, we would have to also relinquish control of the mega-bases, the largest (and most expensive) embassy in the world, and our stranglehold (well, Halliburton and Bechtel’s) on the energy industry there and these things will never happen under the administration we have now. Sadly, the individuals really paying the price for our folly in Iraq are those that yesterday’s holiday are meant to honor as well as the innocent Iraqis (those that haven’t fled Iraq that is) who are being killed by the dozens every single day.</p> #118 – Anthony, although I applaud your resolution to our “fixing” Iraq, sadly we are way beyond any possible military solution. In point of fact, as Rep. Murtha has so eloquently pointed out (and ALL the facts on the ground support his contentions), our continued presence is exacerbating the situation. This war was never winnable militarily regardless of which of the myriad of decisions that BushCo gave us for why we went to war in Iraq in the 1st place you choose to subscribe to (all of which were lies I may add). The biggest problem here is that many members of the misadministration (including our Secretary of State) view the use of diplomacy as a sign of weakness when, in fact, it is a sign of strength. This war has never been about “bringing Democracy to Iraq” or finding Weapons of Mass Destruction (which virtually everyone in our intelligence community repeatedly told the White House weren’t there) or even removing Sadaam Hussein from power (his country had been effectively crippled by 10 years of sanctions). This war is, and always has been, about American hegemony. Go read any of the multiple papers written by the Project for a New American Century (www.newamericancentury.org) addressing America’s role in the world and it will all become clear to you. At any rate, our continued military presence in Iraq is causing a great deal of the strife and violence that are happening there. The ONLY viable solution to the quagmire that Iraq has become is for the Iraqis to work in concert with their neighbors in the region (yes, even Iran) to reach a level of stability on their own. They’re never going to get there if we continue to coddle them and hold their hand. I’m reminded of the first time I took the training wheels off of my daughter’s bike. She didn’t experience a sense of accomplishment (”Daddy, I’m doing it by myself”) until I let go of the seat. It’s time for the US to let go of the seat of Iraq and watch things from a small distance (As Rep. Murtha suggested, staging marines in Kuwait or Qatar) in case they stumble. Of course, in order to do that, we would have to also relinquish control of the mega-bases, the largest (and most expensive) embassy in the world, and our stranglehold (well, Halliburton and Bechtel’s) on the energy industry there and these things will never happen under the administration we have now. Sadly, the individuals really paying the price for our folly in Iraq are those that yesterday’s holiday are meant to honor as well as the innocent Iraqis (those that haven’t fled Iraq that is) who are being killed by the dozens every single day.

]]> By: moe99 http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124444 moe99 Tue, 30 May 2006 22:23:41 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124444 <p>LHP at 22:</p> <p>I guess I wasn’t clear, and of course, I’m late in responding. My dismay results from the military not being truthy when asked about specifics on the current military situation in Iraq, as a present example, but there are others over the spread of the last 30-40 years. I would argue that when DoD lies about the actual military situation, they are in fact being political–i.e. supporting the party in power in the Executive. Short term it helps them. Long term, it undermines the public’s overall trust in them.</p> LHP at 22:

I guess I wasn’t clear, and of course, I’m late in responding. My dismay results from the military not being truthy when asked about specifics on the current military situation in Iraq, as a present example, but there are others over the spread of the last 30-40 years. I would argue that when DoD lies about the actual military situation, they are in fact being political–i.e. supporting the party in power in the Executive. Short term it helps them. Long term, it undermines the public’s overall trust in them.

]]> By: jlr http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124442 jlr Tue, 30 May 2006 22:21:01 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124442 <p>You know, I don’t have a lot of patience with talk of “owning” and “fixing” Iraq - as if it was within the capability of this administration to fix anything.</p> You know, I don’t have a lot of patience with talk of “owning” and “fixing” Iraq – as if it was within the capability of this administration to fix anything.

]]> By: Christy Hardin Smith http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124408 Christy Hardin Smith Tue, 30 May 2006 21:41:38 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124408 <p>Mark — give up on what?</p> Mark — give up on what?

]]> By: markfromireland http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124407 markfromireland Tue, 30 May 2006 21:38:02 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124407 <p>Oh to hell with it - I give up.</p> Oh to hell with it – I give up.

]]> By: skillet-thief http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124369 skillet-thief Tue, 30 May 2006 21:09:16 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124369 <p>Failure in Iraq and the current chaos are not just the result of bad planning on Bushco’s part (or on the part the Cheney Administration, as billmon would say). Just as serious (and this has to do with the preemptive bit) is that Bush and the flaming neocons have absolutely no sense of politics. </p> <p>By that, I mean the idea that, in this case, a war needs to have a political framework around it to make it work. That is part of the fucking Powell doctrine! </p> <p>Anyway, there was no thought given to politics, ever, neither on the international (coalition) level, nor on the ground in Iraq. And that is because these guys don’t believe in it, so they don’t think about this stuff. Not suprising considering how they got into office in the first place.</p> Failure in Iraq and the current chaos are not just the result of bad planning on Bushco’s part (or on the part the Cheney Administration, as billmon would say). Just as serious (and this has to do with the preemptive bit) is that Bush and the flaming neocons have absolutely no sense of politics.

By that, I mean the idea that, in this case, a war needs to have a political framework around it to make it work. That is part of the fucking Powell doctrine!

Anyway, there was no thought given to politics, ever, neither on the international (coalition) level, nor on the ground in Iraq. And that is because these guys don’t believe in it, so they don’t think about this stuff. Not suprising considering how they got into office in the first place.

]]> By: Mary Alice http://firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124288 Mary Alice Tue, 30 May 2006 19:57:48 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/05/30/so-much-for-the-pre-election-troop-withdrawal/#comment-124288 <p>I think what is tying the military’s hands and tongues is the sure and certain knowledge that if they speak out they can plan to spend the rest of their army career in an outpost north of the Arctic circle never rising above the rank of Pfc. As for the retired military, I don’t know. Misguided loyalty to the troops?</p> I think what is tying the military’s hands and tongues is the sure and certain knowledge that if they speak out they can plan to spend the rest of their army career in an outpost north of the Arctic circle never rising above the rank of Pfc. As for the retired military, I don’t know. Misguided loyalty to the troops?

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