
Ever since Pach launched his broadside against the War on Terror and the cover it has provided for a whole host of executive sins, the comments section on that post has looked like Chickamauga: The Morning After.
Wingnuttia came unglued. The challenge it presented went to the absolute core of how they define themselves. Of course they needed the help of a straw man to wage their battle; skipping several logical steps they surged to the conclusion that Pach (and by extension the left) denies the existence of a terrorist threat in order to prop themselves up as the true, steely-eyed defenders of the realm. But Pach said no such thing; as a matter of fact, some of us were supporting RAWA and banging the gong about the dangers of the Taliban in 1998. Funny I don't remember seeing any of the Red State White Boys at those meetings. The only thing 9/11 changed was that some people finally caught up with the feminists.
It isn't that terrorism doesn't exist, but there is a big problem with the bill of goods that has been sold to the American people in the name of some vaguely defined and innefectual construct by George Bush and the incompetent kleptocrats who serve him. Perpetual fear, racial hatred, unlimited executive authority, surrender of civil rights, the blank check written to war profiteers, and the label of traitor slapped on anyone who challenges any of it -- it's all part and parcel of the political edifice that the right erects around their proxy battle with "terror" (few of the participants actually being willing to go fight the good fight themselves).
Over at Kung Fu Monkey, John Rogers gives a colorful but I think apt description of where we've arrived as the result of an environment where no questioning of our political leaders is allowed:
The problem is, these yahoos have managed an ugly trick. They have turned criticism of the policies of Bastards in Suits into criticism of The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. This, of course, is completely wrong, as one can easily tell the difference between the Bastards in Suits and The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. One group is in Suits, and Not Getting Shot At, while another is in Uniform, and Getting Shot At. Please, try to grasp this. Not the same.There is a flip side. Some people confuse supporting the Bastards in Suits for supporting The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. This is, again, ridiculous. If the history of modern warfare has taught us anything, it's that the Bastards in Suits spend an awful lot of time working the kinks out of plans involving The People in Uniform dying unpleasantly. They often screw that up. When they do screw up, it is incumbent upon Bastards in Suits to suffer criticism and fix the situation, as by comparison The People in Uniform are suffering shattered skulls, missing limbs and death. Which is, on my scale, exponentially more traumatic than criticism.
Some people even seem confused on how we are criticizing the Bastards in Suits. The Bastards have a job to do. They are not doing it. Period. Tommy Franks recently trotted out the classic bit of misdirection, attacking critics of Donald Rumsfeld.
"I don't care about your politics. I don't. Don Rumsfeld is an American patriot."
Yes, well, that's lovely. But we're not criticizing his patriotism. We're criticizing his job performance. One of the great mysteries of the last six years was how and when the Bush Administration turned public policy into Special Olympics. "Oh, I know Donny knocked over all the hurdles, but HE LOVES THE RACE, so you SHUT YOUR FILTHY, CYNICAL MOUTH." Jesus H. Christ.
Yes they will scream, yes they will yell, and it will be a straw man bonanza, you can count on it. But it's time the extreme wingnutty hijacking of this dialog ends, and it's not going to end until someone is brave enough to introduce the notion that this whole phantasmagorical "war" is largely a crock.
As Digby says:
[I]t is long past time for people to start the public counter argument, which has the benefit of appealing to common sense. Many Americans are emerging from the relentless hail of propaganda that overtook the nation after the traumatic events of 9/11. Iraq confused people for a while, but that confusion is leaving in its wake a rather startling clarity: the "war" as the government defines it is bullshit. It will take a while for this common sense to become conventional wisdom, but it certainly won't happen if nobody is willing to say it out loud.
Break out the Thorazine, Doris, and let the shrieking begin.
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uh oh…..
KOBE!
FITZ!
ROOTS!
I’m ConFITZing That I Love You
hah! that’s hilarious - my post (”uh oh”) is listed as #0
busted - I caught up with you two threads back - no problema
#3
Way cool.,BTW,#0 is a new one I believe.
And 9/11 DIDN’T change everything. Bastards. Everything this administration says is a lie. Take what they say, turn it inside out or 180 degrees around, and use it to knock the crap out of them.
zeros and ones, zeros and ones….order is thus restored to the parallel universe.
I’m part way through your post, but just had to stop to wonder about the picture - where’d they find such a ringer for Ann Coulter? (in the background, in front of the car).
punaise 7 — It’s that wingnut prom Ole 60 Grit is always talking about.
the war on terror is gooper rebranding of what any country does to protect itself. this not a war it is basic attention to job 1 or 2, and sept 11 did not change everything.
JANE!! You always find such great words and links to words to tell the story. The wingnuttia posts on Pach’s article were so telling. One of the reasons that I love reading at FDL is that the trolls are usually kept in hand- the random trolls, that is. But, in this/that particular case, I am so glad that they were allowed to spew on FDL, bec. it was truly educational.
The chickenhawk wingnuts’ conspicuous lack of enlistment obliterates every apoplectic argument they try to make.
“So why aren’t you serving?” is the most concise (and damning) rejoinder possible.
Punaise,
:~) is a pretty good rendition.It’s been broken 7 or 8 times. Lol.AND, it’s pretty good sized.
Jane #8 - ah, yes, the prom. and here I am, all dressed up* and nowhere to go…..
*(in my Duke Cunningham ‘Smoove Operator’ jammies and turtleneck)
LOL ‘nusted’
Oh my…
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000780.php
You’re being terribly unfair to Ann, you know.
She hasn’t even had time to molt yet this morning.
I ran into a similar problem with insecure people in my work life. If you ever criticized the work one of these insecure people did, they’d take it as a personal attack. At best they hate you forever. At worst they actively try to undermine you.
The way the pants-pissing wingnuts act is exactly the same. They are so insecure they are threatened by anyone who challenges their world view. And I have to say, Pachacutec’s exposing of the sham that is the “global war on terror” is Rovian in its brilliance. It is a direct assault on the Bush orcs’ greatest strength—the myth that we’re at war with a super invisible enemy.
And the John Roger’s piece is perfect.I like the B.I.S. reference, Fits sooo many of them,except maybe, FAT Bastards in Suits.Seemds like a lot of them on TeeVee.
Whisper to the Sky zombies of the night! http://apoeticjustice.blogspot.....o-sky.html
The fatal flaw in the “War on Terror,” even if you pretend that the incompetence and suppression of dissent and such aren’t part of it, is the response to any attempt to do most of the things that would be most effective (improve port security, alleviate poverty, improve America’s image by actually supporting the things we talk about supporting, etc.) is a loud declaration that “this is a WAR, so anything that doesn’t involve guns and bombs can’t possibly have anything to do with winning!”
Huckermill 16 - except that she’s gotten so good at it that she does it on the run - you know: Molt ‘n Bolt.
Amen to the Rogers pictogram - even the simpleton wingnuts should be able to connect the dots on that one (although they may have trouble coloring within the lines).
SPEW ALERT next time ,eh?
Molt ‘n Bolt.
Where’s my damn windex?
Jane,
caught that tasty bite from KFM over at a somewhat popular blogger’s place- Monkey is popping up mmore and more lately, good on him - thanks for the Digby
So how does this work ? I get that Orcinus has groupies following him everywhere “I’m with David” and I get that sometimes it’s random (another blogger had her first troll today - a bittersweet happy dance ensued), and if you check the M$M Blogs (blerrgh) they are lousey with ‘em - so I’m thinking it’s like Huffpo and these are the dweebs paid to sit there and troll in btw loads of Rainbow Six
so what about here ? do they regularly lurk and then get on the Little Pee-Pee Tom-Tom Line when one of the Jane Hamsher’s of the left
hits a bullet point on some script ?
And Why Does Pachacutec Want The Terrorists To Win ?
sorry; it’s either that or that hUNka hUNka burning diplomacy love, Molten Bolton
The War on Terror is actually the Terrify Americans Initiative, or No American Left Unafraid.
Gonna hit the road,G’nite all.
Molt ‘n Bolt,Damn that was funny.
Right on, Huckermill at 11! I ventured to suggest that those fine young cannibals should enlist– heard back from one of them that he’d done his three years. (He didn’t say WHAT he’d done for all that time, or WHERE. I’m thinking a keyboard and Cheetos may have factored into his service.)
Oh, and why don’t I enlist, if I’m so brave. (1) Because I’m 51-year-old mother, and (2) because the Lord God says, “Thou shalt not kill.” And I practice what I preach.
cbl — they all came out of their belfry last night after a Piss My Pants Media link. One usually alerts the other.
Delurking to say that the corollary to Rogers’ statement is that to support the troops, we must apparently believe exactly what a number of them claim to, whether what they happen to believe about their mission is objectively true or not. I’m not saying that soldiers are being deliberately dishonest, but as anyone from a military family knows, it is often necessary for them to wholeheartedly accept their superiors’ claims, because to do otherwise could endanger them and/or their fellows. It’s just one of many ways that a military structure is unlike– note that I didn’t say opposed to– a liberal democracy, because a military has to function in a completely different way to be successful, with the individual being of less value than the various units. Jeez, my Republican WWII vet grandfather taught us all that what made the US military a noble calling was the fact that its members were bound to defend freedoms that they could not fully enjoy themselves while serving, not that serving was better or more fully American than being a civilian.
OT, harkening back to Late Nite last night: SF Chronicle had a big blurb today about YouTube.
some of the highlights mentioned (links are embedded in the article):
Not before eating her Molto-Meal:
Eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog.
(Even Ann has her minimum standards before she’ll grace her adoring fans w/her stirring reenactment of the climactic rabid-dog scene from Ol’ Yeller.)
Ann Coulter: Ol’ Yeller’s Last Reel of the screeching harpies
buenos nachos, Bustedknuckles
Everyone forgets that 9/11 stunned and angered us, but the terror part came with the 10-week media reign of the Anthrax Terrorist. (Yes, I know, “who?”). It was during that time that other “threats” were mixed in as well–the frogmen terrorists, the next-door neighbor apartment-blowing-up terrorist, the ambulence/police car-driving terrorist).
We had a period of almost three months of total saturation on the anthrax murderer, and that’s when the fear-imprinting was laid down in the public’s mind. Without this, with just 9/11, I suspect the bait-and-switch (Saddam for bin Laden) wouldn’t have been doable.
like father like son…
“Why Hasn’t the Drug War Been a Greater Success?
First, the balance among enforcement, treatment, and prevention has probably not been optimal.
Second, the balance among enforcement strategies may not have been optimal.”
http://www.rand.org/pubs/resea.....ndex1.html
Huckermill 32 - then she packs the sloughings into the empty Molto Meal jar, tops it off with bile spew, breathes on it to ignite the wick, and hurls the Molt-ov Cocktail into the crowd.
(are we being to mean to the fair and delicate Mz. Coulter? I didn’t think so.)
OK, crawling back under rock for a while.
And if you like running tallies about the cost…
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
See, the Bush family is too powerful to have actual physical enemies,
They’re fighting SPECTRE
Speech, Press, Environment, Constitution, Thought, Reality, and Evidence
Hi, Jane,
The simple truth is, these guys are fascists, pure and simple.
Torture is helping to perpetuate, not solve the problem. And, I think that’s intentional. Anyone who’s looked at the personal histories of, say, the prime movers of the Muslim Brotherhood’s more fundamentalist wing, including Sayyed Qutb and Ayman Zawahiri, knows that torture has hardened them against both the West and their own more secular brothers.
Cheney is fighting for the right to torture at will, and torture, I think, is intended to keep this “war” going.
What a great thing for the many and myriad defense firms (and the right wing) that the “war” on terror will go on indefinitely because we continue to incite people to fight that war.
If the Great War on Terror is so vital to our national security, how come none of the following people will get their ass over to ‘Raq?
Military Service Eligible Children of George W. Bush
Jenna Bush
Barbara Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Jeb Bush
George P. Bush
Noelle Bush
John Ellis Bush Jr.
Military Service Eligible Children of Neil Bush
Lauren Bush
Pierce Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Marvin Bush
Marshall Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Dorothy Bush Koch
Samuel LeBlond
Ellie LeBlond
War on Drugs, War on terror, the money still pours into the Carlyle Group…
And ole Tricky Dick II gets a bigger chunk every war.
So, question here, can Congress change the name of a war to limit it’s scope…
The problem with wingnuts is that over the last 25 years, they have developed a worldview that is based entirely on lies, half truths and spin.
They’re incapable of honest introspection, of giving serious thought as to why their ideas fail to perform. They lash out and blame the other side. They demand our full liberal pity, because they honestly beleive they are victims.
In a way, they have a point. They are victims - of their own delusions.
Until they are willing to face that, there’s nothing that can be done for them, or with them. Ridicule can be fun, but skewering people with a joke don’t get loses it’s luster after a while.
Do we get to be afraid of ice coolers again this summer? I’m just saying…
“There is no pain you are receeding.
A distant ship floats on the horizon.
You’re only comin’ through in waves.
Your lips move, but I can’t hear what you’re saying.
When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse
out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone.
I could not put my finger on it.
The child is grown; the dream is gone.
I, I, I’ve become comfortably numb. “
Thanks Jane
and thanks for keeping this fabulous place virtually troll free
have they slowed down at Huffpo at all ?, I rarely read the comments - but there do appear t/b less at the other major sites - is it b/c those communities have been established and finally wore them down, or is there less money in the kitty for troll patrol , guess maybe more blogs -
hey, maybe some site in India has all our trolls
When Ol’ Yeller’s Last Reel is combined inna trio w/Michelle “Intern Me Too While Yer At It” Malkin and Ole 60 Grit, you have a shrieking cacophony of the three weird sisters erupting con molto fuoco.
What struck me about the freepers, or whatever they were, who showed up last night was how obtuse they were. Most couldn’t even respond accurately to whatever it was we wrote to them. Everything was either an exaggeration, a strawman, or an outright distortion of what we had said. It’s not that they didn’t believe what we wrote or thought it was wrong. They often just didn’t understand it, and that’s not because what we said was complicated.
It’s really hard to communicate with people who don’t want to hear what you’re telling them.
So glad I rented ‘Shaun of the Dead’ for tonight. I’m hoping the flick will answer whether or not zombies are self-actualized or self-aware, in preparation to decapitating them with garden implements. ‘The Serpent and the Rainbow’ left me hanging in that regard. Here, Karl, come to the votes…
Worst. President. Ever. @ 10:01 pm (#40) - Contrast that with the Roosevelt kids in WWI, or the Kennedys in WWII.
When troops are sent to wage wars under rule of law to oust outlaw regimes for truthful reasons, actions that drive back the evil that mankind creates in the world…I support the troops, and the government that sends them.
When they are sent in to perform preemptive carnage upon contained malfeasants without a thought to the post-action planning, based on a series of evolving lies, actions that increase the evil in the world…I support the troops, and hold in contempt the government that would treat such a powerful resource with such wanton disregard.
A dichotomy?…Only to those for whom cynical sloganeering and purblind ignorance has become life’s very blood.
I despise fawning enablers whose cheers are meant for those whom they safely lickspittle for from afar, rather than those who do the heavy lifting that such creatures will not soil their dainty hands with.
Because I know such people have empty slogans where their balls should be.
And if the world collapses into lawless anarchy as a consequence of the actions of their masters, and the paralysis of their own anemic moral structures…They will be on my menu, so fatten up yourselves on those supersized meals and don’t skip the desserts, Hansel…Daddy likes his meat tender.
Soo-eeeee!
Huckermill 45 - LOL, you get the last word!
An especially disarming and effective way to frame the Wingers when they trot out “terror” as a political tactic and as an excuse to shred the constitution is to plainly and unashamededly call them what they are: “yellow-puddle cowards.” Mock them whenever you can for being scaredy-cat sissies and watch them come unglued.
Jane, this is certainly one of your best posts. Beautiful……….
Don’t think onto it like that.
I ain’t much innerested in the last word, I just enjoys the back-and-forth (long’s I ain’t bein’ waterboarded or nothin’).
Wyo Nate - let’s hope the Carlyle Group doesn’t tangle with the Harwood Flooring Association, whose motto is:
“dare to keep kids off da rugs”
Love the photo. Actually the dude in front looks a lot like John Elway. (That’s not Elisabeth Bumiller lying in the street, is it?)
OT: has anyone else noticed the “nobody was killed at Abu Ghraib” falsehood being spread around lately? A few posts back someone linked to the Globe and Mail article about the murders in Haditha. It contained a quote from David Brahms, a retired Marine Brigadier-General: “It will be worse than Abu Ghraib; nobody was killed at Abu Ghraib.”
But at least one Iraqi was killed at Abu Ghraib. We all saw the photo of that female reservist kneeling next to his corpse, which had been wrapped in plastic and preserved on ice after the severe beatings that killed him. WTF??
What worries me is if the wingers start to see things reality-like, won’t their masters feel the need to beat them back into submission with a little taste of something? I’m not a conspiracist, or a non-conspiracist, but I certainly wouldn’t put it past BushCo to implement a second wave (say, an October surprise) just to get everybody back into fear mode. Maybe a few more anthrax letters, this time to Senators Reid and Rockefeller?
Can the emerging sense of the commons maintain its delicate balance, only now evolving, in the face of terra in the Homeland?
Huckermill 53, it was just getting two-molt-you-us, I guess.
OT: just heard on the BBC headlines that a $38,000 pay-off was made to the Haditha families last December. It wasn’t repeated in the main story.
If true, where do Marines get that kind of money? Wouldn’t tracing it indicate who was covering this up?
Has anyone else heard about this? I couldn’t find other mentions at all.
Greetings. Well, I’ve finally read this “Pach Post”…and all the ensuing mess. Some thoughts:
1. Maybe, the TITLE to the post got some folks in a flap. But once you read the actual article, you see (or at least I did) that the CONTENT of the article covers much much more than the title implies. Of course…this doesn’t say much about someone who would fire off a negative comment without at least reading the article…chuckle.
2. I’m not sure if I agree with one of Mr. Pach’s ideas that the “war on terror” is some sort of “ghost”…if you will. I think I see what he’s trying to say, but I think this part of his article gets too esoteric for me. What would one call it….”Battles On Terror”…”Actions Against Terror”?? I don’t know…but I’m not too hung up on a phrase existing as “War On Terror”.
3. But it seemed to me, that the BULK of his article spoke to how this WH has mis-used the “WAR” phrase to justify all sorts of illegal, unnecessary, and bad policies and statutes. I agree with this part of the article 100%.
Overall, I hardly had any problems with the article.
*** 41: I’ve seen this type of list before. Somehow, I think it could be highly dramatic and effective if one of our Senators or Reps were to make an impassioned floor speech with such a list as the centerpiece.
Ghostman
Veritas78 @58 - I heard that too - might have been on NPR? Not much detail in the story.
Agreed.
But, it passes the time while suffering thru this “L’etat, c’est molt.” administration.
Cujo, after reading that entire previous thread along with your level-headed responses, it became clear that most of the “freepers” know just a few things.
They know how to attack (ad hominem).
They know how to avoid logical debate.
They know how to scream.
One of the things I like about FDL - the commenters post reasonable debate with a maturity that I haven’t seen on many politically minded blogs.
Keep up the good work, ladies and gents. My hat is off to ya.
John Dean’s new book “Conservatives Without Conscience” is coming out in July. Maybe his book will shed some light on why the far right wingnuts are so unhinged. It’s a mystery to me. I chuckled at Digby’s link to the psychologists saying that brain damage lessons people’s ability to comprehend sarcasm. Sure explains the Colbert video on the defend delay site. And what’s with the “christian” left behind video games coming out where you can blow away “infidels”? I will be waiting to see the violent video vigilantes jump on this one.
I’m busy molti-tasking.
Veritas 78:
It’s customary for the military to pay restitution to the survivors of civilians killed in Iraq. (Killed by accident or negligence of U.S. forces, that is.) I believe the numbers I’ve seen are $2,500 per adult. The same article I read said they had also paid $250/each for two injured children in the Haditha incident. Certainly it’s part of the cover-up, but I don’t know that by finding out who requested the payments and who approved them you would necessarily find guilty Marines; they could just be innocent people in the command structure.
TeddySF: I think an October “surprise” is gaurenteed but I hope it won’t work this time.
Anyone else note the irony of W screening Flight 93 at the WH were probably quite a few people know what really happened?
Puh-leaaaze.
Now yer just making mountains outta molt-hills.
Anybody getting into an endless “loading” when submitting comments? I’ve tried several times without any luck. Maybe this short one will load.
Huckermill 66, the bountiful one, aka molti-dude ‘n us
(no really, I’m outta here…)
Uh-oh. Purty soon Scully and Molter are gonna show on the scene.
One could say that a sign of maturity (and also a sign of sanity) is the ability to distinguish between the things that you should be afraid of and the things that you shouldn’t be afraid of. It is reasonable to be afraid of melting glaciers and ozone holes. It would be mature to try to guard against the danger that will result from global warming.
It is not reasonable to be afraid of someone in the Middle East making an unmanned drone to carry biological weapons halfway around the world to attack America. Yet America was convinced to be afraid of Iraq’s duct tape drones. I still haven’t figured out exactly how that happened.
When the glaciers melt and the seas rise, Florida (Hi Jeb) and Houston (Hi Bar and Poppy) will experience problems from rising water and seawater intrusion of the freshwater table. At least. And yet, the Bush family seems unafraid. They don’t seem to be planning for this threat. Is this mature? Is this sane?
Perhaps they will take the warbucka that their friends (and family) are making and move inland.
I am more afraid of the things I know will happen than the things that may or may not happen. And I plan accordingly. America should do the same.
I’m having a molt-down here. Can’t post anything more than a line.
Remember the warbloggers’ rallying cry:
“Vaya con Fritos,” punaise.
Do trolls molti-ply, or do they just add up?
Do we know for a fact that Bush was not consulted in advance?
Veritas78 - This story from tomorrows NYTimes has some info on how and when the payments were made, and confirms what Lobstergirl wrote above.
According to the WaPo, the new Treasury Secretary is going to be terrific! Oh, and Chuck Schumer sez his appointment is “a pleasant surprise.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01384.html
TexasPatriot @ 10:27 pm (#62) - Yes, they don’t seem to know how to comprehend any ideas they haven’t been exposed to before. They are good at both ad hominem and plain old name-calling, but the latter’s about the only talent you didn’t identify.
I suppose there’s a certain logic to this. Anyone who is in the least bit thoughtful who had agreed with what they’re saying must have doubts by now. It’s clearly not going well in either Iraq or Afghanistan. We’re also clearly not making much headway against Islamic terrorism. Two or three years ago, there was room to think that things would turn out OK. Now, the only people who are still convinced of that can’t be very bright.
Maybe that’s why all we saw were the stupid ones.
Before getting to the wonderful smackdown you quoted, John Rogers holds up the mirror to himself and everyone else who says “we support the troops.” Speaking of said troops, he writes:
They are, to pull up my Catholic high school education, entering into a covenant with us. They take an oath to sacrifice their lives, if need be. That is, in my faith anyway, the holiest thing a person can do. In return, the civilian side of the covenant is a deep responsibility, a responsibility far beyond the emotional support one gives a sports team, or the minimal responsibility one has with employees. Our oath is simple:
We will make sure you have the equipment you need.
We will make sure have a clearly defined mission.
We will make sure that such missions are as well-planned as possible.
We will take care of your families while you are gone.
We will take care of you when you come home.
Damn, but the guy can write. Brings to mind something out of my religious education: “Let those with ears, hear.”
#70, kin: as to the drone thing: actually, the worry was that Iraq would hand-off biologic or even nuclear stuff to terrorists who would then haul the stuff onto American soil or near an American base. BUT, the big deceit was in even arguing that Iraq had any of that stuff…which they didn’t. Nor did Saddam have any links to al queda. Nor WOULD Saddam and bin Laden ever link up, if Saddam had stayed in power.
If you study those 2 guys, the common thread is that they’re both megalo-maniacs. Those types CANNOT STAND to even be in the same room with anyone even REMOTELY as powerful as they are. As has been written many times at this web site, that WH stuff about Saddam and al queda was, and is, baloney.
Ghostman
Jane has a way with words.
Chickamauga: The Morning After. The Bush Administration turned public policy into Special Olympics. I know Donny knocked over all the hurdles, but HE LOVES THE RACE.
LOL.
shouldn’t we be wishing TRex a happy birthday?
brave enough to introduce the notion that this whole phantasmagorical “war” is largely a crock.
Amen sister. A-fucking-men.
Digby is an oracle. The only mistake was not capitalizing Bullshit which was undoubtedly a typo.
“The “war” as the government defines it is bullshit.”
This became crystal when Bush flipped on capturing Bin Laden from “it’s our number one priority” to “it’s not that important”.
Can you imagine FDR or Churchill in their pursuit of Hitler saying: “I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important.”
I didn’t think so
Wow, I was gone over the holiday and missed the fireworks. I don’t agree with Pach’s post on some important points. But I do with the main message. GWOT was used for politcal purposes, to pointlessly damage US civil rights to no good purpose, it was used as cover for unrelated mischief that harmed US security and has killed thousands and thousands of people. BushCo may have made some good faith but very stupid moves and they put their own ride ahead of country and refuse to admit any significant mistakes. Afghanistan was bungled. And I do wonder who many or the wingnuts to want to play gotcha ever gave a dime or blanket or any dang thing to RAWA or any Afghan relief effort after the war there, or for any kind of local movement for freedom and human rights? I wonder.
Gutsy and important post by Pach.
Lobstergirl @ 10:41 pm (#75) - Is the Fein in that story Bruce Fein? Yeah, sure, I could look, but this is faster ;-)
Anyhow, I think it’s possible Bush wasn’t consulted about this, although “Fein” is right that he should have been. If he wasn’t, I think it’s just another example of how unconcerned this Administration is about separation of powers issues. Note that I think they did the right thing, but given that this was an unprecedented action, they should have expected some squawking about it.
77: According to the WaPo, the new Treasury Secretary is going to be terrific! Oh, and Chuck Schumer sez his appointment is “a pleasant surprise.”
Well, certainly after the parade of loser cronies we’ve seen come through this administration, this guy at least has proven his competence. His last job wasn’t head of the Arabian Horse Association. The only mystery (as other people have noted) is why the hell he wants the job.
re #85: I was going to correct the typo of put “their own ride ahead of country” to “their own pride ahead of country” But now that I think about it, “ride” may be the better word. Uh oh, I guess I am agreeing with more of Pach’s post than I realized I did.
Yep Cujo - Bruce Fein who testified today in the Sensenbrenner shindig, former deputy AG under Reagan I believe.
79
Peterr says
May 30th, 2006 at 10:45 pm (#79) - For anyone who’s seen the Star Trek movie First Contact, that covenant can be summed up in this bit of dialog, when Lily confronts Picard about his obsession with defeating the Borg:
Picard: My crew are accustomed to following orders …
Lily: They’re probably accustomed to those orders making sense!
That’s the division of responsibilities between commanders and their people. It’s also the division of responsibilities between a country and its armed forces.
Here’s my grand unified theory explaining not just right-wing reactionaries but global climate change as well.
(I swings for the fences.)
As greenhouse gases increasingly become trapped in our earth’s atmosphere, we are all becoming stupider. And not just a little: exponentially so.
Thus, we are witnessing a non-linear exponential explosion in reactionary counterproductive stupidity.
It’s like the planetary equivalent of sticking yer head in the oven and turning the gas on.
Sure, you start out OK sucking alla that gas, but little by little, puffing on the planetary exhaust-pipe does its damage.
Before you know it, you’re going off half-cocked and invading countries and you can’t even remember why anymore.
The WOT will end up the same way the Cold War did, with the crumbling or collapse of Imperial America.
In five to ten years, the US will be a shambling, bankrupt nation still in the hands of its kleptocratic mafia, but too mired in its own problems to be able to successfully harm anyone else.
Here’s my grand unified theory explaining not just right-wing reactionaries but global climate change as well.
(I swings for the fences.)
As greenhouse gases increasingly become trapped in our earth’s atmosphere, we are all becoming stupider. And not just a little: exponentially so.
Thus, we are witnessing a non-linear exponential growth in reactionary counterproductive stupidity.
It’s like the planetary equivalent of sticking yer head in the oven and turning the gas on.
Sure, you start out OK sucking alla that CO2, but little by little, mainlining the exhaust-pipe does its damage.
Before you know it, you’re going off half-cocked and invading countries and you can’t even remember why anymore.
Hmm.
In one sense, I think we ARE fighting a War on Terror. Unfortunately, it’s in Afghanistan. And they’ve been rioting in the one part of the country that we’ve supposedly won. No, wait, don’t tell me–the next six months will be crucial, right?
The Declaration of Independence opens with marvelous words. Kids all over the US learn “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
That’s the second sentence of the declaration; the first sentence is at least as important. “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
This stands in such stark contrast to the current administration, it’s not even funny. There is no respect, decent or otherwise, for the opinions of others. There is no sense of obligation to the world to state our case. There is only a “my way or the highway,” go-it-alone, I’ll do what I want when I want to attitude. I’ll do it in secret, by my rules, in my own time and in my own way.
Good grief! Why trash the Constitution if you can’t trash the Declaration of Independence along with it?
Accountability. We need accountability, and we need it yesterday. Anything less is unacceptable.
Lupin says
May 30th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
The WOT will end up the same way the Cold War did, with the crumbling or collapse of Imperial America.
In five to ten years, the US will be a shambling, bankrupt nation still in the hands of its kleptocratic mafia, but too mired in its own problems to be able to successfully harm anyone else.
———————————————————-
I’m not so optimistic. We seem to be quite capable of bombing other countries on credit, even when a hurricane is wiping out a major US city.
Frank Probst - yesterday’s riots are the last throes.
Either that, or the middle throes. Or the beginning of a new set of throes?
Frank Probst #95: and Pakistan too, I think.
And, dude, please check out my comments on post below the labor column. I think you should reconsider you overly skepical stance towards GOP house leadership intentionally gaming the Jefferson raid issues for their own advantage. (It was you wasn’t it? If not, never mind, sorry.)
lobstergirl 77 - not really. The answer might be covered by Exec Privilege - the same privilege mysteriously waived by Addington, Cheney, Gonzales, McNulty and Mueller already in releasing their “Mean Boys” episode to the press.
The Muckraker at TPM’s site has a link to the govt memorandum. One interesting thing is that so many folks are listed on it, including attys from the Office of Legal Counsel who are down as attorney assistants or something like that - something I had never really seen before.
Also something that struck me is that current USAtty for the ED VA is recused - this guy:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/vae/usattorney.html
You kinda wonder why.
I think they make a pretty good go of it in their memorandum, except I’m not personally really sold on the “Filter Team” concept. I would lean towards having them make a copy of all indexed info and give to Jefferson’s lawyer (which they say they will be doing anyway now, as an “accomodation”) and hold off on review until his atty has a chance to review and present in camera privilege claims. Then, depending, the court could give them access to all info where no privilege is asserted and where privilege is asserted, can either rule, or provide them with the Filter Team type of access for purpose of asserting responses to privilege claims.
This whole “Filter Team decides if it is privileged” makes no sense to me - the privilege lies with the legislator and his crew should get first stab at asserting it. Imagine, for example, if someone suing the govt were faced with docs held back and they got to use a “filter team” to look at everything and decide if the Exec Branch had a grounds for asserting privilege - b4 anyone in the Exec branch got to make that review and determination. I can see instances where it might “have to be” but for now, they have an inventory of docs, they can keep their set clean and make copies, and Jefferson’s lawyer is far more appropriate to make the initial assertions.
I wish I knew what the deal was with the recusal though. Probably something very blah, but you get to where you wonder.
wesgpc @ 11:02 pm (#99) (and Frank Probst) - If you guys haven’t done so already, you should check out Talking Points Memo today. Josh Marshall’s all over this like the stink of corruption on Denny Hastert.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
At the moment, it starts below the advertisement.
Peter #96: I read some analysis of US foreign policy and multilateral action, or UN action, that termed the BushCo attitude as “Bolton’s way.” The recipe for that is
-do not engage or particpate in good faith
-if politically possible, do not participate at all
–make contemptuous comments on what others are trying to do
–after they agree on something, contemptuously criticize and condemn, unless that their policy is exactly the US wanted to begin with
–go ahead and do whatever you wanted to in the first place
–damn or ridicule the conquences
My version is a clumsy expansion on a couple of elegant sentences, but it will have to do for now.
Lobstergirl, ’tis indeed a wonder Mr. Paulson wanted the job.
I wonder how long BushCo’ll want him to stay around, though, with his moonbat endorsement of Kyoto, being head of the Nature Conservancy and thinking that corporations ought to act responsibly with regard to Earth’s environment. Also, even though he’s “from Wall Street,” he’s never joined a country club and travels reading a Bible. Also, the stock market lost, what, almost 200 points today on the announcement of his appointment. Or, conversely, if Wall Street was excited about having one of their own head up Treasury, imagine how low the market would have fallen without this great news.
Roger’s post is one of the most elequent and relivant stances on BushCo or from this point in my life, the Bastards in Suits. My family of Veterans who are not able to recieve medical services because the VA is too strapped in caring for Iraq Vets that our WWII and newer Vets are left wanting. The Bastards in Suits which voted down the Murray Amendment which would of maintained funding for VA services for Vets of past wars while caring for our new crop of Vets.
Thank you Senator Bastard in Suits Kyl!
#80 Ghostman
The reference to the duct tape drones was merely the most absurd example of the low probability scenarios that we spend so much time and effort being afraid of.
We are spending the nation’s blood and treasure in order to be present at the location of the oil with which we have an addictive (Bush’s words) relationship.
We are spending our time, our attention, and our children’s blood in the acquisition of the oil which will eventually destroy the planet’s ecosystems and us along with them. All the while, the clock is ticking and we are running out of time. We need to deal with this and we need to deal with this now. Instead, we are shedding blood to feed our addiction.
The irony would be funny if it were not so heartbreaking and scary.
So, is everybody here talking to Lobstergirl — and about four different things?