
Ever since Pach launched his broadside against the War on Terror and the cover it has provided for a whole host of executive sins, the comments section on that post has looked like Chickamauga: The Morning After.
Wingnuttia came unglued. The challenge it presented went to the absolute core of how they define themselves. Of course they needed the help of a straw man to wage their battle; skipping several logical steps they surged to the conclusion that Pach (and by extension the left) denies the existence of a terrorist threat in order to prop themselves up as the true, steely-eyed defenders of the realm. But Pach said no such thing; as a matter of fact, some of us were supporting RAWA and banging the gong about the dangers of the Taliban in 1998. Funny I don’t remember seeing any of the Red State White Boys at those meetings. The only thing 9/11 changed was that some people finally caught up with the feminists.
It isn’t that terrorism doesn’t exist, but there is a big problem with the bill of goods that has been sold to the American people in the name of some vaguely defined and innefectual construct by George Bush and the incompetent kleptocrats who serve him. Perpetual fear, racial hatred, unlimited executive authority, surrender of civil rights, the blank check written to war profiteers, and the label of traitor slapped on anyone who challenges any of it — it’s all part and parcel of the political edifice that the right erects around their proxy battle with "terror" (few of the participants actually being willing to go fight the good fight themselves).
Over at Kung Fu Monkey, John Rogers gives a colorful but I think apt description of where we’ve arrived as the result of an environment where no questioning of our political leaders is allowed:
The problem is, these yahoos have managed an ugly trick. They have turned criticism of the policies of Bastards in Suits into criticism of The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. This, of course, is completely wrong, as one can easily tell the difference between the Bastards in Suits and The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. One group is in Suits, and Not Getting Shot At, while another is in Uniform, and Getting Shot At. Please, try to grasp this. Not the same.
There is a flip side. Some people confuse supporting the Bastards in Suits for supporting The People in Uniform Getting Shot At. This is, again, ridiculous. If the history of modern warfare has taught us anything, it’s that the Bastards in Suits spend an awful lot of time working the kinks out of plans involving The People in Uniform dying unpleasantly. They often screw that up. When they do screw up, it is incumbent upon Bastards in Suits to suffer criticism and fix the situation, as by comparison The People in Uniform are suffering shattered skulls, missing limbs and death. Which is, on my scale, exponentially more traumatic than criticism.
Some people even seem confused on how we are criticizing the Bastards in Suits. The Bastards have a job to do. They are not doing it. Period. Tommy Franks recently trotted out the classic bit of misdirection, attacking critics of Donald Rumsfeld.
"I don’t care about your politics. I don’t. Don Rumsfeld is an American patriot."
Yes, well, that’s lovely. But we’re not criticizing his patriotism. We’re criticizing his job performance. One of the great mysteries of the last six years was how and when the Bush Administration turned public policy into Special Olympics. "Oh, I know Donny knocked over all the hurdles, but HE LOVES THE RACE, so you SHUT YOUR FILTHY, CYNICAL MOUTH." Jesus H. Christ.
Yes they will scream, yes they will yell, and it will be a straw man bonanza, you can count on it. But it’s time the extreme wingnutty hijacking of this dialog ends, and it’s not going to end until someone is brave enough to introduce the notion that this whole phantasmagorical "war" is largely a crock.
As Digby says:
[I]t is long past time for people to start the public counter argument, which has the benefit of appealing to common sense. Many Americans are emerging from the relentless hail of propaganda that overtook the nation after the traumatic events of 9/11. Iraq confused people for a while, but that confusion is leaving in its wake a rather startling clarity: the "war" as the government defines it is bullshit. It will take a while for this common sense to become conventional wisdom, but it certainly won’t happen if nobody is willing to say it out loud.
Break out the Thorazine, Doris, and let the shrieking begin.



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uh oh…..
KOBE!
FITZ!
ROOTS!
I’m ConFITZing That I Love You
hah! that’s hilarious – my post (”uh oh”) is listed as #0
busted – I caught up with you two threads back – no problema
#3
Way cool.,BTW,#0 is a new one I believe.
And 9/11 DIDN’T change everything. Bastards. Everything this administration says is a lie. Take what they say, turn it inside out or 180 degrees around, and use it to knock the crap out of them.
zeros and ones, zeros and ones….order is thus restored to the parallel universe.
I’m part way through your post, but just had to stop to wonder about the picture – where’d they find such a ringer for Ann Coulter? (in the background, in front of the car).
punaise 7 — It’s that wingnut prom Ole 60 Grit is always talking about.
the war on terror is gooper rebranding of what any country does to protect itself. this not a war it is basic attention to job 1 or 2, and sept 11 did not change everything.
JANE!! You always find such great words and links to words to tell the story. The wingnuttia posts on Pach’s article were so telling. One of the reasons that I love reading at FDL is that the trolls are usually kept in hand- the random trolls, that is. But, in this/that particular case, I am so glad that they were allowed to spew on FDL, bec. it was truly educational.
The chickenhawk wingnuts’ conspicuous lack of enlistment obliterates every apoplectic argument they try to make.
“So why aren’t you serving?” is the most concise (and damning) rejoinder possible.
Punaise,
:~) is a pretty good rendition.It’s been broken 7 or 8 times. Lol.AND, it’s pretty good sized.
Jane #8 – ah, yes, the prom. and here I am, all dressed up* and nowhere to go…..
*(in my Duke Cunningham ‘Smoove Operator’ jammies and turtleneck)
LOL ‘nusted’
Oh my…
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000780.php
You’re being terribly unfair to Ann, you know.
She hasn’t even had time to molt yet this morning.
I ran into a similar problem with insecure people in my work life. If you ever criticized the work one of these insecure people did, they’d take it as a personal attack. At best they hate you forever. At worst they actively try to undermine you.
The way the pants-pissing wingnuts act is exactly the same. They are so insecure they are threatened by anyone who challenges their world view. And I have to say, Pachacutec’s exposing of the sham that is the “global war on terror” is Rovian in its brilliance. It is a direct assault on the Bush orcs’ greatest strength—the myth that we’re at war with a super invisible enemy.
And the John Roger’s piece is perfect.I like the B.I.S. reference, Fits sooo many of them,except maybe, FAT Bastards in Suits.Seemds like a lot of them on TeeVee.
Whisper to the Sky zombies of the night! http://apoeticjustice.blogspot…..o-sky.html
The fatal flaw in the “War on Terror,” even if you pretend that the incompetence and suppression of dissent and such aren’t part of it, is the response to any attempt to do most of the things that would be most effective (improve port security, alleviate poverty, improve America’s image by actually supporting the things we talk about supporting, etc.) is a loud declaration that “this is a WAR, so anything that doesn’t involve guns and bombs can’t possibly have anything to do with winning!”
Huckermill 16 – except that she’s gotten so good at it that she does it on the run – you know: Molt ‘n Bolt.
Amen to the Rogers pictogram – even the simpleton wingnuts should be able to connect the dots on that one (although they may have trouble coloring within the lines).
SPEW ALERT next time ,eh?
Molt ‘n Bolt.
Where’s my damn windex?
Jane,
caught that tasty bite from KFM over at a somewhat popular blogger’s place- Monkey is popping up mmore and more lately, good on him – thanks for the Digby
So how does this work ? I get that Orcinus has groupies following him everywhere “I’m with David” and I get that sometimes it’s random (another blogger had her first troll today – a bittersweet happy dance ensued), and if you check the M$M Blogs (blerrgh) they are lousey with ‘em – so I’m thinking it’s like Huffpo and these are the dweebs paid to sit there and troll in btw loads of Rainbow Six
so what about here ? do they regularly lurk and then get on the Little Pee-Pee Tom-Tom Line when one of the Jane Hamsher’s of the left
hits a bullet point on some script ?
And Why Does Pachacutec Want The Terrorists To Win ?
sorry; it’s either that or that hUNka hUNka burning diplomacy love, Molten Bolton
The War on Terror is actually the Terrify Americans Initiative, or No American Left Unafraid.
Gonna hit the road,G’nite all.
Molt ‘n Bolt,Damn that was funny.
Right on, Huckermill at 11! I ventured to suggest that those fine young cannibals should enlist– heard back from one of them that he’d done his three years. (He didn’t say WHAT he’d done for all that time, or WHERE. I’m thinking a keyboard and Cheetos may have factored into his service.)
Oh, and why don’t I enlist, if I’m so brave. (1) Because I’m 51-year-old mother, and (2) because the Lord God says, “Thou shalt not kill.” And I practice what I preach.
cbl — they all came out of their belfry last night after a Piss My Pants Media link. One usually alerts the other.
Delurking to say that the corollary to Rogers’ statement is that to support the troops, we must apparently believe exactly what a number of them claim to, whether what they happen to believe about their mission is objectively true or not. I’m not saying that soldiers are being deliberately dishonest, but as anyone from a military family knows, it is often necessary for them to wholeheartedly accept their superiors’ claims, because to do otherwise could endanger them and/or their fellows. It’s just one of many ways that a military structure is unlike– note that I didn’t say opposed to– a liberal democracy, because a military has to function in a completely different way to be successful, with the individual being of less value than the various units. Jeez, my Republican WWII vet grandfather taught us all that what made the US military a noble calling was the fact that its members were bound to defend freedoms that they could not fully enjoy themselves while serving, not that serving was better or more fully American than being a civilian.
OT, harkening back to Late Nite last night: SF Chronicle had a big blurb today about YouTube.
some of the highlights mentioned (links are embedded in the article):
Not before eating her Molto-Meal:
Eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog.
(Even Ann has her minimum standards before she’ll grace her adoring fans w/her stirring reenactment of the climactic rabid-dog scene from Ol’ Yeller.)
Ann Coulter: Ol’ Yeller’s Last Reel of the screeching harpies
buenos nachos, Bustedknuckles
Everyone forgets that 9/11 stunned and angered us, but the terror part came with the 10-week media reign of the Anthrax Terrorist. (Yes, I know, “who?”). It was during that time that other “threats” were mixed in as well–the frogmen terrorists, the next-door neighbor apartment-blowing-up terrorist, the ambulence/police car-driving terrorist).
We had a period of almost three months of total saturation on the anthrax murderer, and that’s when the fear-imprinting was laid down in the public’s mind. Without this, with just 9/11, I suspect the bait-and-switch (Saddam for bin Laden) wouldn’t have been doable.
like father like son…
“Why Hasn’t the Drug War Been a Greater Success?
First, the balance among enforcement, treatment, and prevention has probably not been optimal.
Second, the balance among enforcement strategies may not have been optimal.”
http://www.rand.org/pubs/resea…..ndex1.html
Huckermill 32 – then she packs the sloughings into the empty Molto Meal jar, tops it off with bile spew, breathes on it to ignite the wick, and hurls the Molt-ov Cocktail into the crowd.
(are we being to mean to the fair and delicate Mz. Coulter? I didn’t think so.)
OK, crawling back under rock for a while.
And if you like running tallies about the cost…
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
See, the Bush family is too powerful to have actual physical enemies,
They’re fighting SPECTRE
Speech, Press, Environment, Constitution, Thought, Reality, and Evidence
Hi, Jane,
The simple truth is, these guys are fascists, pure and simple.
Torture is helping to perpetuate, not solve the problem. And, I think that’s intentional. Anyone who’s looked at the personal histories of, say, the prime movers of the Muslim Brotherhood’s more fundamentalist wing, including Sayyed Qutb and Ayman Zawahiri, knows that torture has hardened them against both the West and their own more secular brothers.
Cheney is fighting for the right to torture at will, and torture, I think, is intended to keep this “war” going.
What a great thing for the many and myriad defense firms (and the right wing) that the “war” on terror will go on indefinitely because we continue to incite people to fight that war.
If the Great War on Terror is so vital to our national security, how come none of the following people will get their ass over to ‘Raq?
Military Service Eligible Children of George W. Bush
Jenna Bush
Barbara Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Jeb Bush
George P. Bush
Noelle Bush
John Ellis Bush Jr.
Military Service Eligible Children of Neil Bush
Lauren Bush
Pierce Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Marvin Bush
Marshall Bush
Military Service Eligible Children of Dorothy Bush Koch
Samuel LeBlond
Ellie LeBlond
War on Drugs, War on terror, the money still pours into the Carlyle Group…
And ole Tricky Dick II gets a bigger chunk every war.
So, question here, can Congress change the name of a war to limit it’s scope…
The problem with wingnuts is that over the last 25 years, they have developed a worldview that is based entirely on lies, half truths and spin.
They’re incapable of honest introspection, of giving serious thought as to why their ideas fail to perform. They lash out and blame the other side. They demand our full liberal pity, because they honestly beleive they are victims.
In a way, they have a point. They are victims – of their own delusions.
Until they are willing to face that, there’s nothing that can be done for them, or with them. Ridicule can be fun, but skewering people with a joke don’t get loses it’s luster after a while.
Do we get to be afraid of ice coolers again this summer? I’m just saying…
“There is no pain you are receeding.
A distant ship floats on the horizon.
You’re only comin’ through in waves.
Your lips move, but I can’t hear what you’re saying.
When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse
out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone.
I could not put my finger on it.
The child is grown; the dream is gone.
I, I, I’ve become comfortably numb. “
Thanks Jane
and thanks for keeping this fabulous place virtually troll free
have they slowed down at Huffpo at all ?, I rarely read the comments – but there do appear t/b less at the other major sites – is it b/c those communities have been established and finally wore them down, or is there less money in the kitty for troll patrol , guess maybe more blogs –
hey, maybe some site in India has all our trolls
When Ol’ Yeller’s Last Reel is combined inna trio w/Michelle “Intern Me Too While Yer At It” Malkin and Ole 60 Grit, you have a shrieking cacophony of the three weird sisters erupting con molto fuoco.
What struck me about the freepers, or whatever they were, who showed up last night was how obtuse they were. Most couldn’t even respond accurately to whatever it was we wrote to them. Everything was either an exaggeration, a strawman, or an outright distortion of what we had said. It’s not that they didn’t believe what we wrote or thought it was wrong. They often just didn’t understand it, and that’s not because what we said was complicated.
It’s really hard to communicate with people who don’t want to hear what you’re telling them.
So glad I rented ‘Shaun of the Dead’ for tonight. I’m hoping the flick will answer whether or not zombies are self-actualized or self-aware, in preparation to decapitating them with garden implements. ‘The Serpent and the Rainbow’ left me hanging in that regard. Here, Karl, come to the votes…
Worst. President. Ever. @ 10:01 pm (#40) – Contrast that with the Roosevelt kids in WWI, or the Kennedys in WWII.
When troops are sent to wage wars under rule of law to oust outlaw regimes for truthful reasons, actions that drive back the evil that mankind creates in the world…I support the troops, and the government that sends them.
When they are sent in to perform preemptive carnage upon contained malfeasants without a thought to the post-action planning, based on a series of evolving lies, actions that increase the evil in the world…I support the troops, and hold in contempt the government that would treat such a powerful resource with such wanton disregard.
A dichotomy?…Only to those for whom cynical sloganeering and purblind ignorance has become life’s very blood.
I despise fawning enablers whose cheers are meant for those whom they safely lickspittle for from afar, rather than those who do the heavy lifting that such creatures will not soil their dainty hands with.
Because I know such people have empty slogans where their balls should be.
And if the world collapses into lawless anarchy as a consequence of the actions of their masters, and the paralysis of their own anemic moral structures…They will be on my menu, so fatten up yourselves on those supersized meals and don’t skip the desserts, Hansel…Daddy likes his meat tender.
Soo-eeeee!
Huckermill 45 – LOL, you get the last word!
An especially disarming and effective way to frame the Wingers when they trot out “terror” as a political tactic and as an excuse to shred the constitution is to plainly and unashamededly call them what they are: “yellow-puddle cowards.” Mock them whenever you can for being scaredy-cat sissies and watch them come unglued.
Jane, this is certainly one of your best posts. Beautiful……….
Don’t think onto it like that.
I ain’t much innerested in the last word, I just enjoys the back-and-forth (long’s I ain’t bein’ waterboarded or nothin’).
Wyo Nate – let’s hope the Carlyle Group doesn’t tangle with the Harwood Flooring Association, whose motto is:
“dare to keep kids off da rugs”
Love the photo. Actually the dude in front looks a lot like John Elway. (That’s not Elisabeth Bumiller lying in the street, is it?)
OT: has anyone else noticed the “nobody was killed at Abu Ghraib” falsehood being spread around lately? A few posts back someone linked to the Globe and Mail article about the murders in Haditha. It contained a quote from David Brahms, a retired Marine Brigadier-General: “It will be worse than Abu Ghraib; nobody was killed at Abu Ghraib.”
But at least one Iraqi was killed at Abu Ghraib. We all saw the photo of that female reservist kneeling next to his corpse, which had been wrapped in plastic and preserved on ice after the severe beatings that killed him. WTF??
What worries me is if the wingers start to see things reality-like, won’t their masters feel the need to beat them back into submission with a little taste of something? I’m not a conspiracist, or a non-conspiracist, but I certainly wouldn’t put it past BushCo to implement a second wave (say, an October surprise) just to get everybody back into fear mode. Maybe a few more anthrax letters, this time to Senators Reid and Rockefeller?
Can the emerging sense of the commons maintain its delicate balance, only now evolving, in the face of terra in the Homeland?
Huckermill 53, it was just getting two-molt-you-us, I guess.
OT: just heard on the BBC headlines that a $38,000 pay-off was made to the Haditha families last December. It wasn’t repeated in the main story.
If true, where do Marines get that kind of money? Wouldn’t tracing it indicate who was covering this up?
Has anyone else heard about this? I couldn’t find other mentions at all.
Greetings. Well, I’ve finally read this “Pach Post”…and all the ensuing mess. Some thoughts:
1. Maybe, the TITLE to the post got some folks in a flap. But once you read the actual article, you see (or at least I did) that the CONTENT of the article covers much much more than the title implies. Of course…this doesn’t say much about someone who would fire off a negative comment without at least reading the article…chuckle.
2. I’m not sure if I agree with one of Mr. Pach’s ideas that the “war on terror” is some sort of “ghost”…if you will. I think I see what he’s trying to say, but I think this part of his article gets too esoteric for me. What would one call it….”Battles On Terror”…”Actions Against Terror”?? I don’t know…but I’m not too hung up on a phrase existing as “War On Terror”.
3. But it seemed to me, that the BULK of his article spoke to how this WH has mis-used the “WAR” phrase to justify all sorts of illegal, unnecessary, and bad policies and statutes. I agree with this part of the article 100%.
Overall, I hardly had any problems with the article.
*** 41: I’ve seen this type of list before. Somehow, I think it could be highly dramatic and effective if one of our Senators or Reps were to make an impassioned floor speech with such a list as the centerpiece.
Ghostman
Veritas78 @58 – I heard that too – might have been on NPR? Not much detail in the story.
Agreed.
But, it passes the time while suffering thru this “L’etat, c’est molt.” administration.
Cujo, after reading that entire previous thread along with your level-headed responses, it became clear that most of the “freepers” know just a few things.
They know how to attack (ad hominem).
They know how to avoid logical debate.
They know how to scream.
One of the things I like about FDL – the commenters post reasonable debate with a maturity that I haven’t seen on many politically minded blogs.
Keep up the good work, ladies and gents. My hat is off to ya.
John Dean’s new book “Conservatives Without Conscience” is coming out in July. Maybe his book will shed some light on why the far right wingnuts are so unhinged. It’s a mystery to me. I chuckled at Digby’s link to the psychologists saying that brain damage lessons people’s ability to comprehend sarcasm. Sure explains the Colbert video on the defend delay site. And what’s with the “christian” left behind video games coming out where you can blow away “infidels”? I will be waiting to see the violent video vigilantes jump on this one.
I’m busy molti-tasking.
Veritas 78:
It’s customary for the military to pay restitution to the survivors of civilians killed in Iraq. (Killed by accident or negligence of U.S. forces, that is.) I believe the numbers I’ve seen are $2,500 per adult. The same article I read said they had also paid $250/each for two injured children in the Haditha incident. Certainly it’s part of the cover-up, but I don’t know that by finding out who requested the payments and who approved them you would necessarily find guilty Marines; they could just be innocent people in the command structure.
TeddySF: I think an October “surprise” is gaurenteed but I hope it won’t work this time.
Anyone else note the irony of W screening Flight 93 at the WH were probably quite a few people know what really happened?
Puh-leaaaze.
Now yer just making mountains outta molt-hills.
Anybody getting into an endless “loading” when submitting comments? I’ve tried several times without any luck. Maybe this short one will load.
Huckermill 66, the bountiful one, aka molti-dude ‘n us
(no really, I’m outta here…)
Uh-oh. Purty soon Scully and Molter are gonna show on the scene.
One could say that a sign of maturity (and also a sign of sanity) is the ability to distinguish between the things that you should be afraid of and the things that you shouldn’t be afraid of. It is reasonable to be afraid of melting glaciers and ozone holes. It would be mature to try to guard against the danger that will result from global warming.
It is not reasonable to be afraid of someone in the Middle East making an unmanned drone to carry biological weapons halfway around the world to attack America. Yet America was convinced to be afraid of Iraq’s duct tape drones. I still haven’t figured out exactly how that happened.
When the glaciers melt and the seas rise, Florida (Hi Jeb) and Houston (Hi Bar and Poppy) will experience problems from rising water and seawater intrusion of the freshwater table. At least. And yet, the Bush family seems unafraid. They don’t seem to be planning for this threat. Is this mature? Is this sane?
Perhaps they will take the warbucka that their friends (and family) are making and move inland.
I am more afraid of the things I know will happen than the things that may or may not happen. And I plan accordingly. America should do the same.
I’m having a molt-down here. Can’t post anything more than a line.
Remember the warbloggers’ rallying cry:
“Vaya con Fritos,” punaise.
Do trolls molti-ply, or do they just add up?
Do we know for a fact that Bush was not consulted in advance?
Veritas78 – This story from tomorrows NYTimes has some info on how and when the payments were made, and confirms what Lobstergirl wrote above.
According to the WaPo, the new Treasury Secretary is going to be terrific! Oh, and Chuck Schumer sez his appointment is “a pleasant surprise.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01384.html
TexasPatriot @ 10:27 pm (#62) – Yes, they don’t seem to know how to comprehend any ideas they haven’t been exposed to before. They are good at both ad hominem and plain old name-calling, but the latter’s about the only talent you didn’t identify.
I suppose there’s a certain logic to this. Anyone who is in the least bit thoughtful who had agreed with what they’re saying must have doubts by now. It’s clearly not going well in either Iraq or Afghanistan. We’re also clearly not making much headway against Islamic terrorism. Two or three years ago, there was room to think that things would turn out OK. Now, the only people who are still convinced of that can’t be very bright.
Maybe that’s why all we saw were the stupid ones.
Before getting to the wonderful smackdown you quoted, John Rogers holds up the mirror to himself and everyone else who says “we support the troops.” Speaking of said troops, he writes:
They are, to pull up my Catholic high school education, entering into a covenant with us. They take an oath to sacrifice their lives, if need be. That is, in my faith anyway, the holiest thing a person can do. In return, the civilian side of the covenant is a deep responsibility, a responsibility far beyond the emotional support one gives a sports team, or the minimal responsibility one has with employees. Our oath is simple:
We will make sure you have the equipment you need.
We will make sure have a clearly defined mission.
We will make sure that such missions are as well-planned as possible.
We will take care of your families while you are gone.
We will take care of you when you come home.
Damn, but the guy can write. Brings to mind something out of my religious education: “Let those with ears, hear.”
#70, kin: as to the drone thing: actually, the worry was that Iraq would hand-off biologic or even nuclear stuff to terrorists who would then haul the stuff onto American soil or near an American base. BUT, the big deceit was in even arguing that Iraq had any of that stuff…which they didn’t. Nor did Saddam have any links to al queda. Nor WOULD Saddam and bin Laden ever link up, if Saddam had stayed in power.
If you study those 2 guys, the common thread is that they’re both megalo-maniacs. Those types CANNOT STAND to even be in the same room with anyone even REMOTELY as powerful as they are. As has been written many times at this web site, that WH stuff about Saddam and al queda was, and is, baloney.
Ghostman
Jane has a way with words.
Chickamauga: The Morning After. The Bush Administration turned public policy into Special Olympics. I know Donny knocked over all the hurdles, but HE LOVES THE RACE.
LOL.
shouldn’t we be wishing TRex a happy birthday?
brave enough to introduce the notion that this whole phantasmagorical “war” is largely a crock.
Amen sister. A-fucking-men.
Digby is an oracle. The only mistake was not capitalizing Bullshit which was undoubtedly a typo.
“The “war” as the government defines it is bullshit.”
This became crystal when Bush flipped on capturing Bin Laden from “it’s our number one priority” to “it’s not that important”.
Can you imagine FDR or Churchill in their pursuit of Hitler saying: “I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important.”
I didn’t think so
Wow, I was gone over the holiday and missed the fireworks. I don’t agree with Pach’s post on some important points. But I do with the main message. GWOT was used for politcal purposes, to pointlessly damage US civil rights to no good purpose, it was used as cover for unrelated mischief that harmed US security and has killed thousands and thousands of people. BushCo may have made some good faith but very stupid moves and they put their own ride ahead of country and refuse to admit any significant mistakes. Afghanistan was bungled. And I do wonder who many or the wingnuts to want to play gotcha ever gave a dime or blanket or any dang thing to RAWA or any Afghan relief effort after the war there, or for any kind of local movement for freedom and human rights? I wonder.
Gutsy and important post by Pach.
Lobstergirl @ 10:41 pm (#75) – Is the Fein in that story Bruce Fein? Yeah, sure, I could look, but this is faster ;-)
Anyhow, I think it’s possible Bush wasn’t consulted about this, although “Fein” is right that he should have been. If he wasn’t, I think it’s just another example of how unconcerned this Administration is about separation of powers issues. Note that I think they did the right thing, but given that this was an unprecedented action, they should have expected some squawking about it.
77: According to the WaPo, the new Treasury Secretary is going to be terrific! Oh, and Chuck Schumer sez his appointment is “a pleasant surprise.”
Well, certainly after the parade of loser cronies we’ve seen come through this administration, this guy at least has proven his competence. His last job wasn’t head of the Arabian Horse Association. The only mystery (as other people have noted) is why the hell he wants the job.
re #85: I was going to correct the typo of put “their own ride ahead of country” to “their own pride ahead of country” But now that I think about it, “ride” may be the better word. Uh oh, I guess I am agreeing with more of Pach’s post than I realized I did.
Yep Cujo – Bruce Fein who testified today in the Sensenbrenner shindig, former deputy AG under Reagan I believe.
79
Peterr says
May 30th, 2006 at 10:45 pm (#79) – For anyone who’s seen the Star Trek movie First Contact, that covenant can be summed up in this bit of dialog, when Lily confronts Picard about his obsession with defeating the Borg:
Picard: My crew are accustomed to following orders …
Lily: They’re probably accustomed to those orders making sense!
That’s the division of responsibilities between commanders and their people. It’s also the division of responsibilities between a country and its armed forces.
Here’s my grand unified theory explaining not just right-wing reactionaries but global climate change as well.
(I swings for the fences.)
As greenhouse gases increasingly become trapped in our earth’s atmosphere, we are all becoming stupider. And not just a little: exponentially so.
Thus, we are witnessing a non-linear exponential explosion in reactionary counterproductive stupidity.
It’s like the planetary equivalent of sticking yer head in the oven and turning the gas on.
Sure, you start out OK sucking alla that gas, but little by little, puffing on the planetary exhaust-pipe does its damage.
Before you know it, you’re going off half-cocked and invading countries and you can’t even remember why anymore.
The WOT will end up the same way the Cold War did, with the crumbling or collapse of Imperial America.
In five to ten years, the US will be a shambling, bankrupt nation still in the hands of its kleptocratic mafia, but too mired in its own problems to be able to successfully harm anyone else.
Here’s my grand unified theory explaining not just right-wing reactionaries but global climate change as well.
(I swings for the fences.)
As greenhouse gases increasingly become trapped in our earth’s atmosphere, we are all becoming stupider. And not just a little: exponentially so.
Thus, we are witnessing a non-linear exponential growth in reactionary counterproductive stupidity.
It’s like the planetary equivalent of sticking yer head in the oven and turning the gas on.
Sure, you start out OK sucking alla that CO2, but little by little, mainlining the exhaust-pipe does its damage.
Before you know it, you’re going off half-cocked and invading countries and you can’t even remember why anymore.
Hmm.
In one sense, I think we ARE fighting a War on Terror. Unfortunately, it’s in Afghanistan. And they’ve been rioting in the one part of the country that we’ve supposedly won. No, wait, don’t tell me–the next six months will be crucial, right?
The Declaration of Independence opens with marvelous words. Kids all over the US learn “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
That’s the second sentence of the declaration; the first sentence is at least as important. “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
This stands in such stark contrast to the current administration, it’s not even funny. There is no respect, decent or otherwise, for the opinions of others. There is no sense of obligation to the world to state our case. There is only a “my way or the highway,” go-it-alone, I’ll do what I want when I want to attitude. I’ll do it in secret, by my rules, in my own time and in my own way.
Good grief! Why trash the Constitution if you can’t trash the Declaration of Independence along with it?
Accountability. We need accountability, and we need it yesterday. Anything less is unacceptable.
Lupin says
May 30th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
The WOT will end up the same way the Cold War did, with the crumbling or collapse of Imperial America.
In five to ten years, the US will be a shambling, bankrupt nation still in the hands of its kleptocratic mafia, but too mired in its own problems to be able to successfully harm anyone else.
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I’m not so optimistic. We seem to be quite capable of bombing other countries on credit, even when a hurricane is wiping out a major US city.
Frank Probst – yesterday’s riots are the last throes.
Either that, or the middle throes. Or the beginning of a new set of throes?
Frank Probst #95: and Pakistan too, I think.
And, dude, please check out my comments on post below the labor column. I think you should reconsider you overly skepical stance towards GOP house leadership intentionally gaming the Jefferson raid issues for their own advantage. (It was you wasn’t it? If not, never mind, sorry.)
lobstergirl 77 – not really. The answer might be covered by Exec Privilege – the same privilege mysteriously waived by Addington, Cheney, Gonzales, McNulty and Mueller already in releasing their “Mean Boys” episode to the press.
The Muckraker at TPM’s site has a link to the govt memorandum. One interesting thing is that so many folks are listed on it, including attys from the Office of Legal Counsel who are down as attorney assistants or something like that – something I had never really seen before.
Also something that struck me is that current USAtty for the ED VA is recused – this guy:
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/vae/usattorney.html
You kinda wonder why.
I think they make a pretty good go of it in their memorandum, except I’m not personally really sold on the “Filter Team” concept. I would lean towards having them make a copy of all indexed info and give to Jefferson’s lawyer (which they say they will be doing anyway now, as an “accomodation”) and hold off on review until his atty has a chance to review and present in camera privilege claims. Then, depending, the court could give them access to all info where no privilege is asserted and where privilege is asserted, can either rule, or provide them with the Filter Team type of access for purpose of asserting responses to privilege claims.
This whole “Filter Team decides if it is privileged” makes no sense to me – the privilege lies with the legislator and his crew should get first stab at asserting it. Imagine, for example, if someone suing the govt were faced with docs held back and they got to use a “filter team” to look at everything and decide if the Exec Branch had a grounds for asserting privilege – b4 anyone in the Exec branch got to make that review and determination. I can see instances where it might “have to be” but for now, they have an inventory of docs, they can keep their set clean and make copies, and Jefferson’s lawyer is far more appropriate to make the initial assertions.
I wish I knew what the deal was with the recusal though. Probably something very blah, but you get to where you wonder.
wesgpc @ 11:02 pm (#99) (and Frank Probst) – If you guys haven’t done so already, you should check out Talking Points Memo today. Josh Marshall’s all over this like the stink of corruption on Denny Hastert.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
At the moment, it starts below the advertisement.
Peter #96: I read some analysis of US foreign policy and multilateral action, or UN action, that termed the BushCo attitude as “Bolton’s way.” The recipe for that is
-do not engage or particpate in good faith
-if politically possible, do not participate at all
–make contemptuous comments on what others are trying to do
–after they agree on something, contemptuously criticize and condemn, unless that their policy is exactly the US wanted to begin with
–go ahead and do whatever you wanted to in the first place
–damn or ridicule the conquences
My version is a clumsy expansion on a couple of elegant sentences, but it will have to do for now.
Lobstergirl, ’tis indeed a wonder Mr. Paulson wanted the job.
I wonder how long BushCo’ll want him to stay around, though, with his moonbat endorsement of Kyoto, being head of the Nature Conservancy and thinking that corporations ought to act responsibly with regard to Earth’s environment. Also, even though he’s “from Wall Street,” he’s never joined a country club and travels reading a Bible. Also, the stock market lost, what, almost 200 points today on the announcement of his appointment. Or, conversely, if Wall Street was excited about having one of their own head up Treasury, imagine how low the market would have fallen without this great news.
Roger’s post is one of the most elequent and relivant stances on BushCo or from this point in my life, the Bastards in Suits. My family of Veterans who are not able to recieve medical services because the VA is too strapped in caring for Iraq Vets that our WWII and newer Vets are left wanting. The Bastards in Suits which voted down the Murray Amendment which would of maintained funding for VA services for Vets of past wars while caring for our new crop of Vets.
Thank you Senator Bastard in Suits Kyl!
#80 Ghostman
The reference to the duct tape drones was merely the most absurd example of the low probability scenarios that we spend so much time and effort being afraid of.
We are spending the nation’s blood and treasure in order to be present at the location of the oil with which we have an addictive (Bush’s words) relationship.
We are spending our time, our attention, and our children’s blood in the acquisition of the oil which will eventually destroy the planet’s ecosystems and us along with them. All the while, the clock is ticking and we are running out of time. We need to deal with this and we need to deal with this now. Instead, we are shedding blood to feed our addiction.
The irony would be funny if it were not so heartbreaking and scary.
So, is everybody here talking to Lobstergirl — and about four different things?
Mary 100 – Chuck Rosenberg, hmm. I wonder why the recusal too. He’s a pal of Fitz. (Of course, at that level of government counterterrorist activity, maybe everyone is. But I could’ve sworn he worked with Fitz as an AUSA in Manhattan. Could be wrong, it’s not on his resume.) Not that any connection with Fitz would have anything to do with a recusal, of course.
My two cents:
Think the point of distinction is more elemental.
It ain’t about whether or not we are in Afghanistan or not. It’s about how radical extremists are confronted — w/pinpoint laser-like focus or w/a broad street-sweeper shotgun approach. Lotta innocent people wind up getting killed in the latter approach and we wind up making more enemies, perpetuating and increasing the hatred against us, rather than isolating and diminishing it.
Point is more, I think, that you can’t have a war onna abstraction: e.g. “terror” or “terrorism” and hope to “win” it.
It’s a recipe for never-ending war on … the abstraction.
A “War on Terror” is a naive dystopian fantasy promulgated by cynical folk who know better but find it convenient (Cheney-Rumsfeld et al.) who then enlist pseudo-intellectual “thinkers” like Wolfowitz and Krauthammer and Kagan to sell it to gullible naive “idealistic” waifs like Friedman and Beinart.
Point is that the name-brand “War on Terror” is a false and misleading construct.
No one denies that terrorism exists. No one denies that there are radical extremists who must be confronted.
Granted.
That’s why we invaded Afghanistan: they were harboring bin Laden and refused to give him up.
fwiw
wesgpc says:
May 30th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Frank Probst #95: and Pakistan too, I think.
And, dude, please check out my comments on post below the labor column. I think you should reconsider you overly skepical stance towards GOP house leadership intentionally gaming the Jefferson raid issues for their own advantage. (It was you wasn’t it? If not, never mind, sorry.)
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I’m still not biting, because I still don’t see how this helps the GOP. At the beginning of last week, the big story was that a Democratic Congressman was caught on video taking a $100,000 cash bribe, $90,000 of which was subsequently found in his freezer. Simple, easy to follow, and the bad guy was a Democrat, albeit a no-name one.
The big story now is that the out-of-touch Republican Speaker-of-the-House threw an absolute hissyfit, the Republican President had to get involved, and the Republican Attorney General (may have) threatened to quit. All over an FBI search with a proper warrant. At a time when the Republican NSA is spying on Americans’ phone calls without a warrant. Also simple and easy to follow, but now we’re dealing with a bunch of big-name Republicans. How does this help them? (I’m not buying the “It’s a tactical pre-emptive strike against future FBI searches” theory, either. That dog just isn’t going to hunt. Congress is not above the law, and no judge is going to buy any legal gymnastics that put Congressional offices off limits.)
No, I still think this was a simple panicked hissyfit. Sort of like flailing when you’re already in quicksand.
regarding Paulson: I think Snow was going out becuase his brand of flunky mouthpiece loagy and crobyfied hackitude was not cutting it. That was months ago. Then they realized things may be going south either a little or lot before election, they realized they needed some one with some competence and knowhow and understanding of domestic and international finance PR. There are rumors… obscure outlandish rumors… that Paulson may have been promised to have some say in policy. Omigod. Key to BushCo worries is that median income going south. And median 1 vote wins elections. And we may arrive in territory before election when the old time misery index may be more solid indicator than Kerry’s retread campaign gimmick.
Note how Democrats brilliant “the drunk beating me up will hit himself with his bottle if I lie real still” consultant plan worked here. Couldn’t say one thing since they were “hanging themselves” now can’t say one thing since the took action and no longer our issue. What goofs (OK, my daily two minutes of hate for Democratic consultants over.)
105, kin: ok, I see what you’re saying on the drones. In general, I agree, Iraq just didn’t pose any threat.
Did we go into Iraq over oil? Many people think as you do. Personally, I think there may have been various reasons….we’re talking about the “real” reasons now. It may have in part been political, to help ensure Bush’s re-election. Maybe part was to funnel money to all of Cheney’s corp. “buddies”…maybe part of it was that Bush really does think “God told me to do this”.
This crowd running the WH these days is so mixed up I could believe most any idea to explain their thinking.
Ghostman
TeddySanFran 106: Funny. My problem is I get so far behind reading FDL posts and comments, it takes me days to catch up, so when I do I tend to post a bunch.
If any Chicagoans are still awake, there is a hilarious Trib article about how “City staff made sure there were always enough Chicago Skyway toll collectors working so Mayor Daley would not get stuck in traffic jams, a retired official testified in the City Hall corruption trial.” (That would be a Fitz trial btw.)
And I don’t mean to suggest that corruption is hilarious. In case PJF is reading. I take corruption very seriously. But I’m emailing this article to everyone I know and we’re all going to chuckle long and hard tomorrow.
Frank Probst #109: OK, I tried. We’ll see how it plays out and what emerges from the depths.
Obviously you’ve never seen Blazing Saddles.
Frank Probst #109:
“Sort of like flailing when you’re already in quicksand.”
I do like that take, however. You may have opened my mind a little and I give your version some thought.
Thanks, Lobstergirl and JWR.
wesgpc says
May 30th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
Frank Probst #109: OK, I tried. We’ll see how it plays out and what emerges from the depths.
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Here’s another thing to consider: The GOP Chief of Dirty Tricks is Karl Rove, who’s not only off his game at the moment, but who’s also in the doghouse with House Republicans over the continuing immigration fiasco. Even if he could come up with a ploy like this, I don’t see Denny Hastert buying into it.
Much as I think the raid was probably ok, I am just so darn tempted at the thought of Gonzales quiting.
Dang it is tempting. It makes me want to link arms with Hastert and sing on a mountaintop about buying the world a Coke. Or do the chickendance with Pelosi and Sensenbrenner.
But then again, you know the downsides of getting what you wish for. In this case, it would be that the marvel of mercy for separation of powers, Addington himself, would be promptly confirmed as the new AG.
Dang -I am caught in a horror flick. *g*
I liked Pach’s post, although it doesn’t fit me very well, but I didn’t hang around for the invasion (although I caught lhp’s reposted response, which was pretty wonderful and the QED imo.)
Personally, I’m a wimp. I don’t fit into the “unafraid” category. Iscare easily, worry about terrorists, have a high concern level for security items like ports, etc. I just have yet to see anything productive done that makes me less worried. Plus, I worry about other things as well. Like how you ever go back again once you give up civil liberties, how you ever respect law or anyone in law enforcement or justice again when you see them turning tricks on the cheap, not just once but over and over, not just one day, but over years. When they apply a 13 yo’s dear diary lock & key approach to matters that should be fundamental to political discussion or which should be subject to rebuke and punishment.
I have plenty of fears. It’s just that mismanagement, vindictiveness and ineptitude don’t reassure me. When the decisions that those in the Admin are willing to have see the light of day are absolutely appalling, it is that much more frightening when they adopt secrecy as a policy for what may be their “less well thought through” decisions.
When no one ever comes up with a definable mission other than stay the course (you know, the one that takes you off the end of the cliff) and when no decision, no matter how bad, and even if belatedly admitted to be horribly wrong, ever calls up the response of bringing in those who were right and incorporating them into the response mechanism.
I’m plenty fearful, but I’m more so amazed at those who find their fears lessened by anything GWB has done. It’s like those who eat several day old green jello with indeterminate things floating within. Amazing is only one of the words that comes to mind.
Huckermill: I confess, I have never seen Blazing Saddles. Just one of the many gaps in my cultural education.
Huckermill @ 108:
Your analysis is brilliant. At some point people will stop being afraid and ask “Why haven’t we got Bin Laden? Wasn’t this what it was all about anyway?? WTF happened?!!?”
Not to worry, Lobstergirl.
You might well hate it, who knows?
Didn’t include a personal address to you the first time b/c it was more a shticky reply to a straight line than a personal indictment of your cultural gaps.
Besides, if you got gaps I reckon I prolly got caverns.
Huckermill says – “That’s why we invaded Afghanistan: they were harboring bin Laden and refused to give him up.”
Not to be contrarian, but isn’t even this justification still sort of up in the air? I mean, wasn’t there some outreach or offer to hand BL over which was summarily rejected by BushCo? (Or am I just misremembering my conspiracy theories?)
Well, while I’m waiting for a comment in moderation it just occurs to me: how did we win the war on anarchy? WOA, not to be confused with whoa. I can’t remember which country we invaded for that? Anarchtica?
BTW – Cujo, thank you for the info on the film short coming out (out?) on the war prayer.
And wesgpc – it has been a brilliant strategy so far. Just wait till Cheney gets involved, though, and they have to hold a press conference and apologize to the drunk for all the mental anguish he endured while beating them to a pulp.
completely on topic,
you go, Gary Hart
“President Bush’s interpretation of his war powers has produced a devilish conundrum, for no peace treaty can possibly bring an end to the fight against terror. There will always be some rogue terrorist. The emergency powers of the president during this “war” can now extend indefinitely, at the pleasure of the president and at great threat to the liberties and rights guaranteed us under the Constitution. The entire scheme has required not just a president intent on accumulating and consolidating executive power, but a compliant Congress, and a judiciary willing to ratify this systematic march toward a quasi-authoritarian structure as well. Arguably, there is no precedent for this dangerous project in American history. Upon its outcome could rest the future of our republic.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..21896.html
Willing to readily concede, first, that I’ma little hazy on the whole run-up to war in Afghanistan and open to correction, and second, knowing what we know now about how Bushco runs its lemonade stand, I find it entirely plausible that any entreaties by the Taliban to give up bin Laden, if any existed, were prolly summarily spurned.
Just as all attempts at diplomacy by Iran at present have been summarily spurned.
When these boys ‘n girls want war, they accept no substitutes.
Will say, too, tho’, that the Taliban gave safe-harbor for these bin Laden al Qaeda terrorist training camps for years and years and think that’s a pretty solid justification for war, irrespective of whether the Taliban were or were not willing to hand over bin Laden.
And, as the saying goes, I will take my ass-spanking off the air.
Good night, all.
You’ll get no ass-spankin’ from me. Points well taken, and a good night to you as well.
One of Bush’s big applause lines — back when anyone was applauding — was to contrast two views of the world post-9/11. There were people who thought of terrorism as a law enforcement problem (boo, hiss) and people who understood that this is a war (yea, clap.) Of course it’s a law enforcement problem. The “war” in Afghanistan was a very large SWAT action, and had worldwide support. But Iraq? That was just nuts.
One small plaintive plea: could we not have any more troll threads? Pretty please? With sugar on it? It wasn’t educational, at least for me. I know these cretins are out there. It was like swimming in a sewer. Please bring back the magic trex wand, or at least alert us to the fact that the zombies are on the lurch and will be allowed to defecate unmolested in the community pool.
Frank Probst #117: Hey now, that is speculation. No fair. As you point out in your own comments, if this is an intentional strategy it has serious problems. Any really good opposition (ie, not current Dem leadership) could tear it to shreds in seconds. It obviously would not be considered top Rove. If it is a Machiavellian strategy, it is clumsy unsound and rickety and does indicate the workings of the GOP’s lesser lights. It would only work against a Democratic political consultant. But probablilities too spread about on the whole issue right now, so I will rest my case and we will see.
Mary @ 11:28 pm (#118) – I’m not very courageous. I just look at things and realize there are things to be really afraid of and things to be not so afraid of. I’m not too worried about terrorists, even though I live within a few miles of two of the country’s busiest ports. They just don’t seem to be that big a threat. Even if they do strike, we’ll get over whatever we do.
What keeps me awake at night are all those things we can’t survive, or that will substantially degrade our civilization. That’s why I’m more afraid of Bush than I am of the bin Ladens of the world. He has the power to destroy this country, bin Laden doesn’t.
Of course, I’m also concerned about killer meteors, pandemics, and global warming, but there’s not much we can do about any of those in the short term.
If I die before my time, it’s far more likely to be from something like an auto accident, some criminal act (of which I’m the victim), or some medical problem I can’t afford to get treated. Thankfully, I’m not an alcoholic or a drug addict, or you could add those to the list. Worrying about terrorists is BS in comparison.
Mary @ 11:42 pm (#123) – I hope it will come out. Looks like a work in progress, at the moment. Considering the limited commercial possibilities of a depressing 16 minute video, I’m not sure where they’d release it. I’m looking forward to it, though.
BarbaraB @ 12:05 am (#127) – I’d like to see some smart opposition show up, but the losers we saw last night I’d be happy to never encounter again.
Jonathan Schwarz has another interesting post: How Many Hadithas? This one citing some of Seymour Hersh’s reporting from 2004.
Just a small suggestion, but could we have a “Boycott the MSM” day?
Cancel our subscriptions to all our newspapers for one day. Refuse to watch CNN or other television media outlets. And just commune with ourselves.
Let’s think about this, k?
moe99 @ 12:44 am (#133) – Frankly, at this point the difference between how much attention I normally pay to the MSMs and how much I’d pay during a boycott is very small. I get nearly all my news online, and much of it from non-traditional sources like TPM, Salon, Google News and Yahoo News, etc.
Nevertheless, it’s an interesting suggestion.
What Jim P said in 34:
This is too true. The Anthrax killings turned out to be totally unconnected to 9/11 or Saddam or anything else, but even still, they were more fuel for the fire.
I think the media was, in a way, waiting and hoping for something like 9/11. I offer no conspiracy theory here. Just an observation about how easily we crossed over from a media obsessed with sensation (shark attacks, anyone?) to a political feeding frenzy on terror.
Kudos to Jim for bringing that up.
JWR @ 12:39 am (#132) – I think that this sort of thing is inevitable when an army is occupying hostile territory. It seems like the army and marines are doing what they can to avoid this happening, but there’s just something about not being able to tell foe from neutral that makes it crazy.
I hope it hasn’t happened too often.
I’ve got a think piece up on the wingnut attacks on Gore and what it all means going forward — remember the wingers are the id of the GOP/Conservatives, with the clear job of getting the memes started out and seeing what sticks:
Nettertainment: It’s Alive
My two cents: Waging War on the Abstract
9/11 was not an act of war; it was a criminal act.
9/11 was either an act of vengeance or it was designed to create hatred for the Arab world.
9/11 was instigated by fascist Western criminals or it was an act by criminal Arab extremists. It might have been an aggregate of these two possibilities.
Proportionally, enemies of the U.S. would have had to kill over three million Americans to compare to the number of Arabs that have been killed by the “war on terror.” Iraq has 1/12th the population of the U.S.
The deaths of Native-Americans in the U.S. were not about a battle of good over evil; it was a battle of European diseases and the Springfield repeating rifle. over the bow and arrow and the lack of a “chain of command.” A compelling moral imperative did not and does not exist.
On a side note, some white men continue to screw over the less experienced Native-Americans.
Jack Abramoff and associates’ schemes against the tribes that sought a casino, were designed to convince tribal leaders that huge sums of money were required to battle the anti-gambling groups throughout the U.S.
He could explain how much money the enemy of the tribal leader’s ambitions had at its disposal to defeat the tribe’s legislative and economic goals.
The tribes would have to anti-up at least as much as the anti-gambling groups acting in concert to defeat bills that would permit them to open a casino. Normally this would be expected to be worked out by the effected urban communities in levying a tax profitable enough to mute any moral reservations they might harbor.
But good old Jack wasn’t satisfied with that. Why should he be? He could send lackeys like Reed to go drum up some anti-gambling push in a targeted area that would allow Jack to go back to the effected tribe and tap them for more money, again to combat the terrible consequence of those born-again voices speaking louder than expected tax revenues and bribes.
Oddly some Native-American tribal leaders forgot that “white man speaks with forked tongue,” continues to be a reality.
Cujo359 at 12:58 (#136) – I agree completely. I’m sure the Marines are doing what they can to retain their humanity, but It just seems an impossible situation for them. And then I read stuff like this from last weekend:
I’m at a loss to explain what I think about that. What’s the mission? Do our soldiers know? Does Rumsfeld? I know I don’t. You’re right, it’s all just too crazy. Lets hope there aren’t more Haditha’s. And more’s the respect to the grunts who’re able to make it through this nightmare without resorting to brutality.
I am not afraid. I am not terrorized. I know that there are horrible, terrible things that can and do happen… like 9/11, but the fear of such things happening to me are the amongst the very last things in my mind. What the hell is all the panic about out there in red state America?
Let my government protect me from foreign threats, yes. But don’t go wage war on this “emotion” that isn’t a part of my life.
I will say here what I say all the time and what Digby urges us to say loudly and often. “This war on terror is bullshit.”
I just don’t understand why everyone can’t apreciate our Chimp emperor’s fabulous new gold lace, shimmering velvet, dazzling pearl’s, rippling ermine and stunning weasel fur-trimmed robe policy.
And don’t they know we have always been at war with Oceania bin Ladin?
Quo Vadis? Where is the spirit of the master race?
This is too true. The Anthrax killings turned out to be totally unconnected to 9/11 or Saddam or anything else, but even still, they were more fuel for the fire.
Dumbo,
I didn’t know they had solved the killings. I’m no conspriracy theorist but they sure dropped off the radar pretty fast after having kept the nation in a state of terror for so long. You never hear the word anthrax mentioned by the MSM anymore. Ever. That alone tells me there’s more to the story.
There are many threads woven into the entire Bush/Cheney agenda, and tons of horseshit being spread out to conceal the truth about their real aims and intentions. It’s all Luntz-speak and “noble lies.” Yet, in a stroke of stunning clarity, Pach lifted the veil of “spin” and nailed the warp and woof strung throughout the entire operation of this administration with his line, “the whole point has been to seize power and steal money.” Done and done. “Governance” isn’t even in their lexicon.
With nods to Heir Goerring and Leo Strauss, Bush & Co. adopted a bastard-child philosophy of “permanent war.” It is the principal vehicle for achieving not only their dubious Pax Americana abroad and enriching the military-industrial complex (at obscene social costs) while at it. Permanent war became Rove-approved “cover” for their utterly corrupt and subversive machinations here at home (looting the Treasury; stealing our pensions; raping the commons; rigging elections; authorizing torture; trashing the Constitution; and so on, and so forth, ad nauseum), meshing quite well with Karl’s life-ambition and strategy to establish an enduring Republican Reich.
“Seize power and steal money.”
Pach’s truth-telling reminds me of other truths told:
A New Pearl Harbor
The Lie Factory
Starving the Beast
Tax Cut Con
Lay Convicted, Bush Walks
Crimes Against Nature
The Anti-Torture Memos
Oh, and we can’t forget to out our fundies, and their “rear guard” role in this national (cum international) nightmare.
Bush, Cheney, the whole PNAC bunch, Cambone, Ledeen, Addington, Shulsky, Feith, Norquist, Delay, et al — the entire, fascist, empire-loving, greedy, revanchist, criminal gang of them — they’re all going down in infamy.
It’s hard to understand what the wingnuts are getting upset about. It’s a good post. I actually laughed pretty hard when I saw the picture on that post and printed it out for a friend. I guess the wingnuts don’t want to know what 70% of the country is thinking.
Re: anthrax episode. Even then it seemed the nut(s) was targeting dems like Chris Dodd. An elderly women in CT died as well from the anthrax– If that death was related to the whole malarchy, I’d like to see the sender(s) put in front of ajury & behind bars for her death.
prof rat (141): But what’s the emperer wearing beneath all that finery? eh?
It used to be the “communists” now it’s the “terrorists”. The military industrial complex needs an enemy for business purposes. With most Americans heads shrunken by Team B may have turned to American Idol.
Morning all,
Jeez, I go work for a few days and miss all the fun.
Nice post, Jane, and a strong follow-up to Pach’s piece. The wingers can’t change the fairytale’s ending: the little boy who pointed out that the Emperor had no clothes wasn’t disappeared to Gitmo, villified on the Sunday talk shows, and the object of ratfuck pushpolling.
Fantastic post Jane. Five Stars. And some great word-smithing in the comments. Punaise as usual in top form.
Hope the junior G-man doesn’t confuse all this targeted political passion.
Just because the King has gone mad does not mean there aren’t people trying to kill us. Certainly there are, and one ought not to be shy about fighting them. As Aravosis said, I’m all for a war on terror–when does it start? I’d observe that it is in the King’s interest to fight a war on terror, but not in his interest to actually win it.
I’ve been working at a manufacturer on airport screening devices and sea cargo screening devices. I’ve had two different kinds of contacts while doing this work. The first, with engineers, scientists, and even business-folk, are professional and focussed on building good machines that can accurately detect security threats.
The other kind of contact I’ve had is with the Department of Homeland Security. It’s a mess. Nothing in those contacts has ever given me any reason to think that anything Pach said is wrong.
In my book, I’ve updated the ‘Emporer’s new clothes’ analogy.
The clothes may well still exist. But the Emporer wearing them is a skeleton. No skin, muscles, heart or brain. A clattering bag of bones which symbolize nothing but death and decay. The death of competent lawful constitutional governance. The death of a mythical ‘American Dream’ which is now a newly minted ‘long national nightmare.’ The death of common sense. The death of freedom of speech, freedom of the press, searches with warrants are dead by NSA.
Not to mention death and destruction of foreign peolple’s based on a dead policy. The destruction of the lives of many proud and brave people serving in the military. The death of pride in being an American. The death of adherance to international treaties governing treatment of prisoners. The death of fairness.
Just a jangling bag of bones, whose creaking noises elicit scorn and derision.
I’ve never seen a picture of the wingnuttia in action. Imagine the efforts that daring photographer must have gone through. That alone makes this a top post. Thanks Jane!
(For some reason I always pictured them having little red clown noses. Oh well.)
Freep this poll.
http://www.vote.com/
From the Department of Everybody’s Head Exploding…
Nobody’s called bullshit on the so-called GWOT more skillfully than Pat Buchanan.
“war on anarchy”- I like it.
The inability to detect satire must be connected to the inability to know bullshit when you hear it….too much nuance.
Oh yeah, what you DON’T hear in msm is key. There has got to be a lot of man hours put into keeping real hard news in the closet.
Heard a repeat of Randi Rhodes talk w/ Ray McGovern on his “why did you lie” question to rummy. He said CNN called him & wanted to know where he got info on rummy saying east, west & somewhat north of Baghdad. CNN did put up the 2 videos of rummy saying he knew & rummy saying he did not say he knew but my big question was: does msm even have research teams anymore or are they too bogged down with checking out duck xrays with alien faces? What they don’t suppress, they don’t even know. Thank God for the internets.
GREAT post Jane. Yikes that photo!
Here is a treat to have with your morning coffee.
http://i46.photobucket.com/alb…..ocrats.jpg
“vaguely defined and ineffectual construct” sounds like a pretty good description of GWB himself.
I have always preferred …”war on nouns”
John Rogers, Kung Fu Monkey:
“One of the great mysteries of the last six years was how and when the Bush Administration turned public policy into Special Olympics.”
Hey, do these liberals turn a great phrase or what? Anyway, John, I think I can tell you the when. It was in April (or so) 2001 when our AWACS plane was captured by the Chinese. Bush foxed them by saying something that sounded like an apology in Chinese but was not an apology in English. And just to make sure they were fooled, he and his minions told every journalist in Washington just how clever they’d been.
It’s been downhill ever since.
Woah, nice post.
9/11 is all bullshit too.
Osama Sadam == Easter Bunny.
#34. The Anthrax incident. I think this is key to the seizure of power. The strain was traced to a United States government lab, and then the trail went dead. One person was fingered and then released. I have believed for a long time that a fix was in on this one. I wish someone with the brains and persistence of Emptywheel could pull together what is publically known about the whole affair, because I also believe that it was the Anthrax and not the airplane attacks that made the Bush dictatorship a feasible enterprise. It scared the hell out of Congress.
Who sent those letters, and why?
At the danger of tarnishing my wingnut credentials, I have to take issue with a couple of the common memes here, but I will attempt to do so in a reasonable and logical way.
Chickenhawk/fighting keyboardists.
If you truly believe in this, then it leads to a couple of places I don’t think you want to go. First, if only those who have served on active duty have a valid opinion on foreign policy issues then military service should be a prerequisite for holding any office involved in foreign policy decisions. By extension, in a representative government, military service should then also be a requirement to vote for said representatives. I don’t actually have a problem with the “Heinlein” model of governance – but I suspect that most here might.
Secondly, if you believe that the cause of our current problems is our image in the world, that nobody likes us, then I submit that rather than opining about that online you have the responsibility to pack the keyboard away, quit your job, and join the Peace Corps or a NGO. Leave your friends and family and go to some hellhole on the other side of the world and work to improve our image in the world. It is the other side of the same coin.
We support the troops but not their mission or the suits that sent them there.
Portraying the troops as helpless, duped, cannon fodder is not support, nor is it even respect. Enlisted terms for the most part go for 2, 3, or 4 years. That means that 100% of serving active duty troops enlisted or reenlisted since 9/11 and Afghanistan, and the vast majority enlisted or reenlisted since the invasion of Iraq. They were not duped – they knew full well what they were getting into. They knew full well they stood a high probability of going to the ME. They believe in their mission, and in many cases have put their life on the line for the mission. How can you honestly support someone who not only believes in something so opposed to your own beliefs, but is actively involved in implementing said policies? In my mind, you can not. If nothing else, show them enough respect not to treat them like fools or children.
The War on Terror is BS for sure. Are there pissed off people who will resort to violence out of desparation to change the power and fight against repression? Sure.
We are victims of terror attacks because of not only our plicies around the world, but our ACTIONS and this applies to multinationals and the US government which acts as “enforcer” and gre3asing the skids for multinationals to “do their thing”.
The people react with violence because we install puppet governments who exploit the people and we BACK those governments with miltary hardware.
The problem is can we sustain the american economy without the nasty meddling in the affairs of others around the world? Do we have a responsibility to “fight” opression “on our own” or is this the role of the international community?
We don’t have an ethical and moral foreign policy. We have an exploitive one which also morphs into some agressive “terror” tactics as in assassination and destabalizing democratic governments. We want the resources for OUR use… not for the well being of those who live where they are found.
Oil around the world is OUR strategic interest. We do what we have to to secure it. And the price we pay is blowback and terror attacks from those who dispise our meddling and hegemony.
It is absurd to think that some people simply want to “do random terroism” aimed at US and western targets. Terrorism is their weapon of choice… because their views have no forum.. not in their local governments, not in the UN.
We are in the Mid East and southern Asia for fuel. If those governments will not give us the fuel, or sell it to us at a price we can afford… we will take it. We will opress those who protest our actions.
Opression give rise to terrorism.
We are the opressors wherever we go. We are at the root of the terrorists blow back. We cre3ate our own enemies and then mount the war machine and the policies to fight it… all for profit. In the process we trample our own liberties.
What a mess we have created… and all for GREED, comfort, luxury and the pursuit of wealth.
I see we have an an early morn Molter in progress….drink that Koolaid
The Moustache is still a sucker. He refers to the “war on terror” today in reference to Iraq. Getting this meme reversed is gonna be a lot of work.
Just as in allowing the “Choice – Anti-Choice” debate to become the “pro-life” and it’s implied opposite
impasse, we have allowed the Republicans to set the terms of the national defense debate. For 5 years I have been cringing everytime a Democratic politician/elected official used the phrase “war on terror.” In adopting their deceptive terminology one has already conceded the upper hand, because we are no longer addressing a real set of issues.
Jane – fantastic followup to Pach’s incredible piece. Love the John Rogers quote.
OCSteve #163 – I want to respond to both of your points quickly. First, the “chickenhawk/fightin’ keyboardists meme isn’t new. Well, the first part is old, the second is an offshoot of a particular variety of it. As I’m sure you know, there have always been Americans who bang the drums of war louder than all others, yet seem strangely adverse to the idea of actually fighting and serving in the wars they believe so deeply in. Dick Cheney and anyone showing up at a College Republicans convention come to mind.
This took a particular psychopathic turn turning the infamous days of right wing “war bloggers.” Talk of using more, bigger bombs was bandied about with no respect to the fact that bombs kill people and not just bad ones. War bloggers seem to be defined by the maxim that if the US has a weapon in its arsenal of any size it should be used ASAP. Obviously this isn’t universally applied, but the general idea is that these people were happier using the American flag as a blanket while they watched the war they unquestioningly support on TV rather than joining in the fight that they so strongly believe we should be fighting.
This doesn’t mean you can only be a veteran to enter an opinion on US foreign & military policy. Even though far more vets are Democratic pols and bloggers, not all of us are. But there’s a huge disconnect between someone who has served and fought saying “this is not to be taken lightly” and someone who sits at home masturbating to “Shock and Awe” footage screaming for more troops, more guns, and a more judicious use of force. I personally think the Heinlein model from Starship Troopers would be just fine, not in the least bit because it would force the upper class to have a familial investment in the military policies of our government.
In regards to your second point, I think you’re right, there’s obviously a concern for treating troops seriously when saying we support them but not their mission. But it’s not much of a concern in my view. No one is spitting on these troops (nor has there ever been a documented case of that in the Vietnam era). Your fear that someone might not be taking the troops as adults because we don’t want them to die is misguided. Our concern for the safety (let alone continued existence) of our troops is no more condescending than my mother’s desire for me to eat my vegetables. You’re allowed to be concerned for the welfare of responsbile adults.
Lastly, you’re 100% off base to suggest that every troop knew what they were getting into when they enlisted. Our presence in Iraq is not limited to active duty, full time soldiers & marines. There are reservists and worse, there are tens of thousands of National Guard troops that never received the same level of training as frontline troops. Paintball two weekends a month is not the bill of goods our National Guardsmen received.
No wonder the wingnuttery is becoming unglued. They have been sold a bill of goods and now they cannot belive they have been such dupes.
To the rightnutters out there who use 9/11 for their nefarious purposes, here is what I, a New Yorker, tell you: F.. you! Keep your filthy hands off our tragedy!
Unlike the rightnutters, who soil their diapers at the mere mention of 9/11, New Yorkers are not cowards. We know first hand what it means to be attacked. We are the ones who have to go to work everyday using buses, subways, and crowded commuter stations. And we do not let “terror” ruin our daily lives. Nor do we want to see our freedoms slashed away by a gang of demented dictators.
introduce the notion that this whole phantasmagorical “war” is largely a crock.
The really hard wook of fighting ?terroroism” is acknowledging that there are root causes other than religious fanaticism as well, and that these root causes will eventually some day have to be addressed (not necessarily solved, but addressed) before any kind of real positive progress wrt reducing terrorism may ever begin.
And that is what is really hard work … a different kind of “fighting”.
Lobstergirl (55) — I saw that same quote trotted out yesterday on the Today Show, went unquestioned when uttered by Michael Smerconish. The fair-and-balanced component provided, Carville, failed to call him on it, too.
This is a ‘winger talking point for certain, just like the one that Laura Ingraham trotted out about the press failing to report the “Good News in Iraq”.
It is also a complete distortion of what did happen at Abu Ghraib, an attempt to sugar coat what happened there. Deaths at that facility have already been covered up by grossly inadequate investigations and post-mortem reporting, let alone the failure to record many prisoners who were “processed” at Abu Ghraib and later died.
Propaganda. That’s all it is, and the worst sort since it is easily picked apart and only serves to make Americans look more callous to the world.
OCSteve 163-
You said–They believe in their mission, and in many cases have put their life on the line for the mission.
What do they think their mission is? Because that’s where the word “duped” comes into play.
new thread – new dissing
The Bu$h crime family has spent over a billion dollars of tax payer money on “PR” – er- propaganda. Forget about what the money COULD have gone for (as they were slashing funds to the infirm, elderly and kids). The Repubs are probably rolling in Abramoffian slush fund money. Looking at the paid pundit and “new story” scadals and the constant beating of the wingnut troll wings against the progressive blog flames – I think a case can be made that there are paid trolls out there. Paid by the post? Paid by the word? Paid by the pound of horse-shit that they sling? Whatever.
It would be very interesting for some intrepid reporter to begin to figure out whether these trolls are indeed professional operatives or perhaps employees of a marketting company.
(I also think that Rove (the source of all known evil) realizes that the blogs are so important to the progressives that throwing in trolls and ringers to stir up dissension would be the easiest and most cost-effective way to accomplish his plans for world domination.)
The ill-defined GWOT also has the added benefit of making all of America more like the modern mega-corporation workplace. The right to tap phones, e-mail. ID badges. Unitary executives. What else?
OCSteve —
2000. What did we look like to the world in 2000, before George Bush? No need to get all NGO-Peace Corp, just need to undo what went wrong to make progress in the eyes of the world and it started in 2000. Frankly, the right could work on that, too. If the American people wanted to do some serious work on recovering their stature, they could spend a much smaller amount than they do on defense and spend more on economic development in countries like Mexico (might actually cut down on illegal immigration) or Palestine (reducing the threat of instability in the region) — but they’d have to get rid of the spend-and-bankrupt Republican Congress to do it.
STOP LOSS. Got it? Some of these troops enlisted BEFORE it was Rummy’s show, under a different president and got STOP LOSS before they could leave.
FRAUD. Capice? Many young folks who signed up were mislead about what they would do; it also says something about the desperation of recruiting, doesn’t it? (Cripes, they’re recruiting autistic kids!) Nor are these folks explicitly told they will be supporting the Long War billed as the Pax Americana.
Jane,
Gret , great post. And Kung Foo Monkey just got himself a new fan. One brilliant new catchphrase after another.
Re: the trolls. Every now and then I take a stroll over to Little Green Footballs or some such similar place. What always leaves me wondering is how much time is wasted on insults and personal invective instead of discourse.
I thought we were better than than that.
I’m gonna make myself very unpopular here:
How do we raise the level of discourse by making stupid cracks about molting, and freepers having no soul and generailzed insults? How does imitating them, improve us?
I am not without a sense of humor. I am not opposed to derogative nicknames. As you all know, I’ve invented a few myself. However, the purpose of those nicknames (Molly Ivans coining “shrub” being the best example) is to convey in shorthand a broader meaning. “Deadeye” refernces a whole host of issues,in one word.
When we REDUCE OURSELVES to name calling and insults for insult’s sake,we don’t hurt the “freepers”. To the contrary, we empower them and convince them that that kind of behavior is OK or at least not confined to one side or the other. Kinda like the “Dems Congresscritters are corrupt, too” meme.
Worse, when we do that, we are dumping raw sewage into our own clean beautiful FireDogLake.
I saw a real disconnect between Janes witty and bitng post and the comments, especially in the first 2/3’s of the the thread. The bottom edge of the thread, seemed more like what i have come to expect from this wonderful community of thoughful insightful people.
I’m all for humor, and I love the puns, but let’s try not to be infected by the mindless invective seen on too many other sights.
Let’s not pollute the Lake!
The “War on Terra” is the new anti-communism… Let’s just keep scaring the hell out of people while promoting this war with no end in sight. I don’t think we can afford to wait another 40 years for another Berlin wall to come down before the curtain is pulled back to expose the Wizard of Oz as a little old man with a lot of smoke and whistles
I dare say that if we had gone to war in Afganistan at least 10 to 12 years early, on behalf of women’s rights, 9/11 may not have even happened. Yes some of us lefty feminists were well aware of the Islamofacist threat, and some of us were supporters of RAWA.
lhp 178 – oops; I see your point, however:
you won’t see too much of that in daytime threads, I thought Late Nite was an anything goes zone.
oops again – “3sivund” above is punaise, upside down
The challenge it presented went to the absolute core of how they define themselves.
If you’ll excuse my French, this is how the pussies who call themselves conservatives pretend to be men. Imaginary manhood against and imaginary existential threat. Yawn.
The enormity of 9/11 showed the failure of the Bush administration to do its most basic job: protect American borders. Since Bush failed, the enormity 9/11 had to be spun as the measure of Our New Implacable Enemy.
Except it wasn’t a new enemy.
So now, the rhetoric (and more importantly, the revenue streams) of the Cold War can be recycled. The American people don’t have to be taught a new line of submission to a system that merely launders their tax dollars into private profits in what amounts to a mob protection racket.
It’s all the same. Only fewer of us, this time around, are dumb enough to fall for it.
.
OCSteve @ 163:
Since this sentiment (’support the troops, not the suits’) forms a part of my statement @ entry 49, allow me to reply, hopefully in a respectful fashion.
I do not entertain the conceit that ‘ troops (are) helpless, duped, cannon fodder’, or find that sentiment expressed anywhere but from the pens and minds of the Left’s marginalized anti-military version of ‘wingnuts’, and in some incautious cases from elements of the Right itself who fancy the Military as a playtoy to create and enforce Empire.
What I do consider them as, are men and women who perform their duties under orders that the country that they represent is obligated to offer as responsible and lawful, with an eye to minimising casualties on either side of the conflict, and bringing said conflict to a conclusion as soon as prudently possible.
The statement ‘actively involved in implementing said policies’ as it pertains to ground troops (as opposed to staff planning officers at CENTCOM, for example) is a bit of a red herring, as it implies foreknowledge and acquiesence…Neither are states which factor into the component provided by those who recieve such orders…‘Theirs is not to question why, theirs is but to do or die’. A soldier might agree with mission goals (general and specific) but expression of subjective feelings is irrelevant, and to oppose what comes from above precipitates the breakdown of the overall structure.
It is the solemn obligation of the government and the people not to waste such a resource capriciously, and thus civilians are compelled, when it is plain that Government has abrogated its duties in the matter, to speak and act out.
it’s not a war anymore than the “war on poverty” was a war.
but it IS a “war on my patience.”
love. this. site.
I’m all for humor, and I love the puns, but let’s try not to be infected by the mindless invective seen on too many other sights.
sites, presumably.
Let’s not pollute the Lake!
While I agree, in my opinion, the mere mention of Ann Coulter pollutes the site and there is no means of recovery. Therefore, I suggest that she only be mentioned as “butter knife”. Not only because of her (in)famous story on that theme, but because it describes her to a T: thin, dull, rigid, and of limited usefulness.
looseheadprop @178 – as the Quakers say “That Friend speaks my mind.” Appreciate your comment very much. Firedoglake is in general remarkable, brilliant, insightful, and playful too. Most often the folks here seem to bring out the best in each other and so the best thinking emerges.
Re, the troops:
Strong fighters deserve strong leaders. The troops know this. Unfortunately, BushCo and the Republicans are not strong leaders. They are weaklings who cannot face the truth. They hide behind uniformed personnell fighting abroad to steal money from our soldiers’ families’ taxes back home.
Jane,
This post articulates precisely the sentiments i’ll be using as i campaign for progressive dems this summer and fall. Thanks so much,Jane, for your clear-headed thinking and writing.
BTW, Jane, that picture never ceases to make me laugh. I love every time you resurrect it.
#111
I am no psychology Ph.D., but I think the main reason we went to war in Iraq can be summed up in three words:
UNRESOLVED DADDY ISSUES
Georgie wanted so much to win the oneupsmanship game with his Daddy, that he tried to do what he believes his Daddy could not do: oust Saddam and bring democracy to Iraq and the greater Middle East.
Daddy had the sense to NOT steamroll into Baghdad once Kuwait was liberated for the very reasons plaguing us now: insurgency, instability, and chaos. Daddy could actually listen to dissent. Unfortunately, Georgie can’t.
Isn’t it obvious? He has been a piss-poor, pathetic pussy failure in everything he has ever done in his life (Arbusto, anyone? AWOL, anyone? Need I go on the infinite list?). Iraq, although one piece in the overall neocon puzzle, was supposed to be Georgie’s “in your face moment” for his Daddy. It sure ain’t turning out that way, now is it, folks?
On one level, I am overjoyed to see the plummeting approval numbers for the Chimperor and his evil administration. Even Ned Nascar and Wanda Wal-Mart can see what a corrupt evil fuck he is. The American public (well, 66% anyway) has deserted BushCo and the entire neocon fascist movement. And that is giving the nutjobs (like cepan, Seixon, O’Reilly, Hannity, and Coulter, to name just a few) conniptions. I take special glee in watching them writhe in frustration.
On another level, it chills me to the bone that our military can be used as toys in the playground of a psychotic like Georgie. They don’t deserve it.
#164
You hit it on the head. I don’t have faith that Joe Sixpack could ever understand it, but you hit it on the head.
This is a good read, and elaborates in great depth the points you make:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ…..p;n=283155
Considering that I was the first to start the “stupid cracks” about molting (and then punaise and I hadda back-and-forth w/some accompaniment from others), I thought I’d bring it to your attention that the very post you are presently enshrining for its witty and biting postlieness (I would agree) also contains the following “disconnect” (in your words) in comments:
Perhaps you should take your concern up w/Jane?
Look, I don’t happen to agree w/your point or your concern, but that’s neither here nor there. Your characterization strikes me as more fake balance, a false equivalency betwixt LGF and the snark found here.
But that aside, if you think that posting a pic of “Night of the Living Dead” (or whatever film it’s from) somehow doesn’t count as what you are so fretfully describing (”raising the level of discourse”?), but my and others’ cracks about molting somehow do, then it seems to me you aren’t being honest w/yourself — either about the nature of our comments or Jane’s use of similar tactics or both.
Smells like double-standard.
Either we all are wrong to make such cracks (including Jane) or we aren’t. Which is it? Perhaps you should get that straight in your head first before donning your concern chapeau?
You may not like my cracks (”mindless invective”?), which is fine w/me. I also post substantive points (and you might not like or agree w/any of those either).
It’s your prerogative.
But one point you might consider: “concern” can become its own form of, as you say, “re: the trolls”.
And as you say, I thought we were better than that?
Fear is unAmerican.
I apparently have a comment at 193 that is awaiting moderation; it will stand or be stricken on its merits, which is fine by me.
Was just curious, tho’:
Anyone know how long it typically takes before a comment under moderation is either approved or denied?
Huckermill – how could we have missed it – it was right there staring us in the face:
“Coulter the Molter”!
…and on that fine note….
“awaiting moderation” seems to be a fickle feature. The few times I’ve been subject to it, posts have appeared between five and 15 min. later, I guess.
(oh, and thanks for the “Vaya con Fritos”)