
In a 5-4 decision today in Garcetti et al v. Richard Ceballos (decision via the Court website, and is in PDF format), the Supreme Court restricted some First Amendment rights of whistleblowers who work in a public context. I haven’t yet had a chance to read through the whole of the decision, but I wanted to get information to everyone up front because I knew there would be a lot of readers who were interested in this.
Scotusblog does a great initial breakdown of the decision, and some of the prior decisions relied on by the majority and minority.
The Court issued its opinion today in Garcetti v. Ceballos, No. 04-473, originally argued in the Ocotber sitting and then reargued after Justice Alito joined the Court. Justice Alito’s was the fifth vote in favor of reversal (although we don’t know for certain whether the judgment or opinion would have been different with Justice O’Connor participating). Justice Kennedy wrote the majority opinion, which the Chief Justice and Justices Scalia, Thomas and Altio joined. As I predicted here, Justice Souter — who likely was assigned to write the majority before Justice O’Connor’s retirement — wrote a dissent, joined by Justices Stevens and Ginsburg. Justices Stevens and Breyer each also filed dissenting opinions….
Today, the Court took that very signifiant step, holding that "when public employees make statements pursuant to their official duties, the employees are not speaking as citizens for First Amendment purposes, and the Constitution does not insulate their communications from employer discipline." This apparently means that employees may be disciplined for their official capacity speech, without any First Amendment scrutiny, and without regard to whether it touches on matters of "public concern" — a very significant doctrinal development….
The WaPo has more. As does the AP (via LATimes). And the NYTimes.
The implications for issues like the NSA revelations and others ought to be obvious, but consider this:
Souter, writing in dissent, said he agreed that "a government employer has substantial interests in effectuating its chosen policy and objectives, and in demanding competence, honesty and judgment from employees who speak for it in doing their work."
But, he wrote, "I would hold that private and public interests in addressing official wrongdoing and threats to health and safety can outweigh the governments stake in the efficient implementation of policy and when they do public employees who speak on these matters in the course of their duties should be eligible to claim First Amendment protections."
It’s a fine line between keeping information potentially harmful if exposed to the public eye behind a wall of necessary secrecy and suppression of revelations of lawbreaking and/or wrongdoing in a CYA effort on the part of those in a supervisory position who don’t want their actions exposed to public sunshine.
When you add in the fact that treading cautiously has never been the hallmark of this particular administration, nor has restraint in dealing with people perceived as political threats or enemies, you get a sense of the magnitude of this decision and its implications.
More on this as I get time to read through the whole of the opinion and the dissents. That the decision came down as I was reading this LATimes story about dissenters in Russia being institutionalized in large numbers again is ironic at best.
Related posts:
- SCOTUS: Citzens United to be Re-Argued Today; Campaign Finance, Speech Rights Hang in Balance
- SCOTUS: Selecting Justice, A Live Chat with CAC’s Doug Kendall
- Conservative Justices Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas Say Virtually Bribing Judges is Okay
- BREAKING: High Court Rules Safford Strip Search Unconstitutional
- Jane, Others Discuss Historic Sotomayor Pick and Fed Transparency





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Fitz!
I get the sense there’ll be a lot more leaks to reporters.
But be sure to use an untraceable cell phone for those leaks to reporters from now on.
[imagine the voice of James Earl Jones]
Our turn to the dark side is complete.
This is such a legal wonky thread, but I know we have a LOT of folks interested in this issue. So have at it, gang.
Man, it just gets worse and worse.
I have to wonder – had this case been brought under a Democratic Administration, would some of those voting to suppress free speech ruled differently. It seems only Cheney sanctioned leaks are now safe.
God. This stuff is getting really scary!
I’m glad this was a 5-4 decision –
Those recent 9-0 decisions (especially the one that said citizens have no standing to sue their government) were really starting to bug me.
So, it’s “blow that whistle at your own peril,” I guess, and the government now has carte blanche to fire or demote an employee who dares to reveal evidence of wrongdoing. I am very confused about how we can be protected from the abuses of government if there is no protection for those within the government to make those abuses public. Does the government not have enough power as it is, that the Supreme Court thinks it needs more?
Deeply disturbing, on more levels than I have brain power to articulate – at least until I have some lunch.
‘There was me, that is Alexito, and my three droogs, that is Johnny Blue Eyes, Tony The Shiv, and Clare-Dog, and we sat in the USSC trying to make up our rassoodocks what to do with the stinky finkies…A bit of the old ultra-justice to the yarbles was the word, and then a little of the Ludwig Van.’
;>)
They can try to plug these things up all they want, but there will still be the heroic whistleblowers who will tattle in spite of threats to their employment, etc.
This makes it harder, but the truth always outs.
Great. The way to curtail our rights is to narrow the definition of what activities are done as “citizens” thus saying we can have free speech, but only in certain contexts. Just like Bush’s “free speech zones” to limit protesters (meanwhile abortion foes have no restrictions on where they operate). Or preemptive arrests to clear the streets of undesirables when Emperor Bush or Chancellor Cheney come to town.
This is the slippery sloped-nose of the camel under the tent. Our rights get stripped away one by one, in small ways.
What do you reckon it means that in the face of their plummeting popularity that they’re pushing ahead with such vigor? Is this some last ditch get-it-while-you-can effort? Do they not see the writing on the wall? Or do they think they can actually keep bringing it off? Are we deluded in thinking that truth, justice, and the American Way will triumph?
Why don’t they just add an amendment to the Constitution that says the Republicans have whatever powers they need to do whatever they deem best for the country (in other words, what’s best for THEM) and (and I quote) “There’s nuthin’ you nor anybody else can do about it!”
That would make everything so clear and we wouldn’t have to argue about it anymore. Plus, it’s already true.
Petro–”This makes it harder, but the truth always outs.”
I wish I could agree with you, but in a truly fascist state, as we are in increasing danger of becoming, such as Nazi Germany, communist Russia or China, that’s simply not true.
This is awful. Strip Search Sammy strikes again. Previews of coming attractions for the next 30 years.
Thanks, Gang of 14:
Republicans
* John S. McCain III, Arizona
* Lindsey O. Graham, South Carolina
* John Warner, Virginia
* Olympia Snowe, Maine
* Susan M. Collins, Maine
* R. Michael DeWine, Ohio
* Lincoln Chafee, Rhode Island
Democrats
* Joseph I. Lieberman, Connecticut
* Robert C. Byrd, West Virginia
* E. Benjamin Nelson, Nebraska
* Mary Landrieu, Louisiana
* Daniel Inouye, Hawaii
* Mark Pryor, Arkansas
* Ken Salazar, Colorado
Just in case anyone was tempted to forget.
Mickey #16–I’ve been noticing this for awhile as well. The plain fact is, it doesn’t matter what Bush’s approval ratings are, they’re still the party in power and there are no effective checks left. Why shouldn’t they go ahead with their extreme right-wing neo-fascist agenda?
They know they’re here til November (ah, for a Parliamentary system!) and who knows, there could be another terra attack in the meantime and the sheeple will all come crying to Daddy “strong on defense.” Puke!
P.S. sorry to be blog hog! Only here for 15 more minutes! :)
I disagree with you Christy. I do not think this is a legal wonky issue at all. I am OUTRAGED and feel like Big Brother Bush couldn’t be happier or more smug with Alito on the court.
The government muzzle has just be placed over every American’s mouth not to mention conscious.
Adding to the sadness is that had Sandra O’Connor been on the Court instead of Alito, the decision likely would have been 5-4 in the other direction.
My thoughts exactly Jane!
I was just getting ready to list the Ole Gang O’ 14 myself!
I AM SO MAD!!!!
Because conservatives hate big government and love the people?
-GSD
Just for the record, which of the gang apart from Holy Joe are up for reelection this year?
Maybe we should be looking at their primary opponents!
O/T sorry
but Francine Busby will be on the Ed Schulz show today. He is syndicated, so you may want to check the site beforehand to make sure you catch the right time
show is on here @ 2pm CST
http://www.wegoted.com
Oscarsmom #16 – I agree with you, but these regimes always fall with their built-in contradictions. But I do admit that much mayhem and tragedy occurs while they are allowed to operate.
The people are always at advantage, they just take time to wake up and realize that.
Holy shit, this is awful! Checks and balances? Under what delusions do those 5 justices make such a decision? They really do hate America.
Any leakers out there that want to get a story out, bring it here. I’m sure one of us would be willing to write it. Give me “standing” so I can take ‘em to court.
Everyone is out of control. Imagine another appointee by bush…
This is just so disgusting and sad watching America being flushed down the toilet, one freedom at a time.
erm, nominee, not appointee– although with this congress, maybe i wasn’t too far off…
Sadly, this is only the beginning.
Rove Rage:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..s/gas_rage
-GSD
What did we expect? The 5-person majority consisted of Alito plus 4 who short-circuited the 2000 election. Why would we believe that these creatures would act in a principled manner? Bleah!!
OT, but there’s an interesting diary at DKos about Byork going after Larry Johnson. It also links to Christy’s Coink-dink post about Byork’s advanced notice of the Kurtz article on Jason Leopold.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/30/14933/9924
The Clash “Clampdown“
OT
(Sorry, but I’m firewalled from responding on the last thread)
RE: Constitutionality of Presidential signing statements
Thanks Redd, missed that…looking forward to reading it…
While were on the topic… (i.e. Constitutional empowerment) has FDL dealt with Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution ( [the President] shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offences against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. ) and how that provision will impact Libby’s testimony strategy vis a vis an expectant pardon?
I’m not clear on that section. Does that mean if the Congress proceeds with Presidential impeachment following the 2006 elections and impeachment is unresolved at the end of his term, that Bush will be constitutionally barred from granting any pardons, to anyone as he leaves office?
Or am I inferring too much with wishful strategy?
OOPS. Regarding my comment #31. I brain farted and forgot that Roberts was not on the court in 2000 (but I’m pretty sure how he would have voted). Sorry.
So, maybe Congress needs to do their stinking job and legislate– get a law out there to protect the whistleblowers for real…
shelve the antigay marriage thing forever.
OT but here goes…..
1500 more troops sent to Iraq. final throes and all that. have we hit bottom yet?
I was wondering if some one could help me out her. If our Government was interning Jewish people into concentration camps because.. oh of some stupid and silly reasons as they are too intelligent or too liberal for our neo-cons buddies and a danger to the the security of our nation; and lets say someone in the Government blew the whistle on them. Would this person be considered a hero or enemy of the state ?
So; all those Nazis we locked up after WWII for ” I know nuthing” or who said they “were only following orders” are now innocent of wrong doing ?
WHAT HAPPEN TO OUR DEMOCRACY – ALL THOSE GIS THAT DIED IN WWI ARE NOW SPIT ON BY SCOTUS -
Congress (as presently constituted) will write a bill which uses this decision to base prosecutions on beyond nat’l sec/state secrets. Folks’ll be prosecuted for, let’s say, blowing the whistle on mine safety and reg’s ignored…
OT– but chimp won’t check out Gore’s film! grrr, another photo op and invocation of 9/11.
He doesn’t go to soldier’s funerals either but will do this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
WASHINGTON -
President Bush invited relatives of some of the 40 passengers and crew members who are portrayed in “United 93″ to join him for a screening of the film at the White House Tuesday night.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..united93_1
I don’t think in practice that whistleblowers have ever really been protected from retaliation at some level, with or without first amendment protections. There is the world of law and then there is the real world, and regardless of whatever protections might have existed, whistleblowers have always faced retaliation – and that is not something unique to the government of TEAM LOSER.
Not to make light of the decision, but I just don’t see a whistleblower reviewing his/her first amendment rights when deciding whether to blow the whistle or not; I think they expect to face a world of shit, at least from their government employer, and do what they think is right regardless of the personal consequences.
Will it deter whistleblowers? I doubt it. Whistleblowing is in reality a type of action that transcends by its very nature legal consequences.
In the end, like Petro, I think that all the actions taken by TEAM LOSER will ultimately work against them and hasten their downfall.
People said that both Roberts and Alito would be especially deferential to Executive authority and they are showing that they are. I mean, who could have guessed?
darkblack #11 Love the “quote” and the picture. I was thinking more along the lines of Kafka’s The Trial where the powers that be tell you are wrong and there is no fact nor anything you can do that will ever change that. Or maybe Catch-22, if you are morally aware enough to know that what we are doing is wrong then you are morally aware enough to follow the rules, the first of which is not to tell on us.
This decision seems to cover public speech by current employees. So I think it would encourage anonymous leaks. Some information, of course, is easier to track back to its source than others. In June 2003, for example, Richard S. Foster, chief actuary for the Medicare program was ordered not to report substantially higher costs of Medicare Part D prescription program to Congress. Under this ruling, he could have been punished for speaking out before the infamous House vote. He could have leaked the information but it may have been fairly easy to track back to him. So what could someone in his position do?
More generally, what kind of position does this place public servants in who testify before Congress? They are required to tell the truth but OTOH they can be punished by their superiors if any of their truths are inconvenient. That goes back to the Catch-22 above.
1,165 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
Christy:
This decision is indeed very scarry thinking ahead to fall elections and the chilling efects on whistleblowers inside both state governments and the voting machine manufacturers but it is also especially frightening with regard to the assault on the Congress that the administration is carrying out thru the FBI. Have you had second thoughts now about the “sting” operation against Jefferson and it’s orchestrated marketing campaign in the corporate media? The Congressional Black Caucus was hung out to dry by Nancy Pelosi and Rahm Emmanuel…visions of AIPAC’s campaign a couple a years back against Cynthia McKinney.
I think the coup is complete and we’ve got one shot left and that’s takin back BOTH houses and purging the leadership of Pelosi, Emmanuel, Harry Reed and Chuck Schummer. The primaries are gunna be especially important in Conn, Mont, and in Harmon’s district in CA.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION THINGS ARE GUNNA GET A WHOLE LOT WORSE BEFORE THEY GET ANY BETTER!!!
Exactly Jane.
I will say that there is a distinction that can be drawn between grousing publically about policy decisions you don’t like but have been told to keep confidential – which is how the majority tries to frame this one – and reporting on actual misconduct.
What bothers me the most is the context of this decision – an atty who believed a warrant had been obtained based on “misinformation” or
“inaccuracies” (i.e., euphemistically – lies) and that the superiors, despite being advised of this, went forward anyway.
Warrants being issued based on fibs are, in essence, misrepresentations to the court. To call how misrepresentations to the court are handled a “policy” decision within the scope of empolyment purview is more than troubling on several layers. First the non-legal concern that allowing policy to be set based on misinformation, which misinformation cannot be exposed, is detrimental to the process of government – as we have been shown over and over. Hiding Curveball’s unreliability and id from Congress anyone? Hiding Chalabi as the sourcing on other info? Hiding the mobile biolabs report STILL? on and on and on
Secondly, lawyers are not simply in the “two camps” that the Court describes – employee and citizen. They are also professionals with independent duties to the courts, their colleagues, the adverse parties and the process. To rule that they can be stifled from exercising their professional judgment as to whether or not the court is being misled as a matter of a departments’ policy sucks hairy toes, but is completely predictable anymore.
After the announced wars on journalists, leakers in agencies, members of Congress as leakers and whistleblowers;coupled with the stifling of independent review processes like cutting off the Off. Prof Rep from even taking a looksee at whether or not Ashcroft and Gonzales violated their prof. obligations; doubling the couple with a states secret approach to blatant lawbreaking and DOJ attacks on the courts to divest them of jurisdiction; then adding on a quint of a comatose Congress – and it is a depressingly sad picture.
I have to attach blood sucking ferrets to my fingers to keep from praying for ill health in high places. *s*
Doesn’t the “gang of 14″ make anyone think of some historical Chinese equivalent?
“when public employees make statements pursuant to their official duties, the employees are not speaking as citizens for First Amendment purposes, and the Constitution does not insulate their communications from employer discipline.“
Doesn’t that effectively completely negate the Whistle Blower law for public employees then? That’s not a blow to the law, that utterly destroys it. When did public employees agree to give up their 1st Ammedment rights? I thought Free Speech meant FREE SPEECH. Unless someone signs a confidentiality contract, I can’t grasp how this is possible.
So we see the Clusterfuck justices arrayed in all their uniform splendor. The biggest long term risk of a two term Clusterfuck presidency has always been the supreme court. Clusterfuck may still get to pick another justice- perhaps two. With these picks- the plutocrats and the military industrial complex will have a hammerlock on the justice system for decades. Losing those elections had a price- a BIG price.
EPU @ 41 -
I agree. I don’t like the decision, but I think for most of the hard core whistle-blower types, it’s not about the first amendment. It’s about taking a moral stand, and putting yourself on the line for it.
What this points to for me is the necessity of:
(a) reminding the gang of 14 that we remember;
(b) reminding the press that they are indeed necessary, if government – any government – is going to be held to account;
(c) praising to the heavens those whistleblowers with the courage of their convictions who speak out without protections; and
(d) picking up the news they make public and pushing, pushing, pushing for accountability.
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph over good is for good people to do nothing.”
Christy
Great post and left
note for you previous thread comment 106
It’s been my understanding that Justice O’Connor is participating in a panel researching, discussing and hopefully forthcoming with a paper on the overreaching power BushCo has grabbed for the Executive. For a Justice who so carefully tread alongside our Constitution she must be, shall we delicately say, LIVID!
Finally, every government department can have its own commissar. Thanks, Supremes, you’ve done us proud.
This decision is the culmination of a long campaign to silence the civil service people who actually make the federal government work. They’re the folks like Patrick Fitzgerald, the ones who stay after the political appointees leave, and the ones who follow the law because they still want to have their jobs when the next Administration shows up. They’re the ones who speak up when a President does something illegal or unethical. They’re another force in government, a conservative one in the small ‘c’ sense of the word, and one that retains the institutional memory of why things are done the way they’re done.
Many of the civil service jobs in the DoD have gradually been given over to contract workers, who don’t have the protections of the civil service. Supposedly, this is more efficient, though I find that assertion laughable for many reasons. That’s a trend that predates the Bush Admin., but it’s still a troubling one.
Looks to me like it’s time for a strong national whistleblower law for federal employees. Perhaps the sense of Congress still means something at the Supreme Court. We know how little it mesns at the White House already.
DOW not down 142 points for the day. This is starting to get bloody.
GW Clusterfuck plans to focus on the great economy in his fight to retain congress.
Good God! A Bushite %u2014 ONE %u2014 with a conscience!
Michael H. McLendon, deputy assistant secretary for policy, said Tuesday he would relinquish his high-level post on Friday. McLendon supervised the VA data analyst who lost the data and is the first official to leave after VA Secretary Jim Nicholson pledged to hold officials accountable after the May 3 burglary, in which a government-owned laptop and disks were stolen from an agency analyst’s home in Maryland.
“Words are inadequate to describe how I feel about these recent events and the impact on the band of brothers and sisters of service members and veterans that we are supposed to serve,” McLendon wrote in a letter obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press.
“Given that this very serious and tragic event occurred on my watch and in my organization, I feel it necessary that I tender my resignation,” stated the letter, which was submitted to the VA late Friday. “I would be modeling the wrong behavior to my staff and others in VA if I took no action to be responsible. %u2026 “
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..Theft.html
Every blog will soon have its very own junior Gman
there’s probably some fertile ground in Gang of Four (L.A. punk band) lyrics, but nothing leaps to mind
Mary – I don’t disagree with what you wrote, but I think I view its consequences in a different way. I say let the bastards have what they want b/c it will create a hornet’s nest for them – on so many levels. There is a lot of truth (remember, I’m omniscient) in the adage “Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.” I am all for their overreaching.
Sandra Day spent her career trying to avoid making waves. Her decisions were always crafted as narrowly as possible- to have the least possible impact on future cases.
If she is about to deliberately make BIG waves, it will be a huge surprise to the world.
mainsailset 49 – while that would be nice, O’Connor, between her Bush v. Gore and her Hamdi decisions, helped to hand him chunks of that power. He didn’t have to grab in Hamdi, she spun the lazy susan right round to him. That decision has bootstrapped them all kinds of places, and her one vote would have made a difference. The difference. Even Scalia was ready to say enuff’s enuf on that one but she took the ‘let’s see if we can make it all better for everyone without anyone getting in trouble’ approach that lets bullies run amok.
Sandra Day was, of course, an insider as to the REAL reasons of the court in Bush v. Gore. Wonder if she’s willing to spill THEM beans?
il duce, der fuhrer, mr. president
Its a real world experiment on the Constitution that should be studied in PoliSci textbooks: How to consolidate state power into the hands of a sinlgle Party.
Like in the USSR, where party status, rank and loyalty determined so much, the apparatus of the State is being bent and blended into into the cadre of the GOP.
The pull of fealty to this new formation is distorting institutional precedents in all departments, as the ship of state is turned slowly to its terrible new course.
Another traditional, core American belief rendered ‘quaint’….
“It can’t happen here.”
Brave men and women of principle within the Federal bureaucracy will need all the support they can get from civil society should they face punishment for patriotic truthtelling.
OT but would anyone be willing to send me an invite for a gmail account?
nfandrews at sympatico dot ca
I wonder if Sen Lieberman would consider a whiste blower or a hero if he reported to the news media that our Government was interning jewish people into concentrations camps?
I geuss we can now release all those Nazis Prison Guards who we locked up after WWII that “were only following orders”
“I know nuthinking” – Sgt.Shultz
How can they spit on all the dead GIS graves like this!!!!!11
Rehnquist for all his failings had to be carried feet first from SCOTUS. Sandra Day O’Connor left because of her husband’s worsening Alzheimer’s. I sympathize but people who take lifetime appointments must realize that these kinds of conflicts are inevitable and she had literally years to prepare for this. She must also have known that her replacement was likely to be a radical conservative like Alito. What this gets down to for me is that it seems strange that she is sounding concerned about a series of events that her own actions brought about.
BREAKING: SCOTUS…
the court is already broken
rwcole –
Sandra Day already spilled the Bush vs Gore beans — she wanted a Republican to pick her successor.
Any tut tutting she does is worthless — she betrayed her oath to uphold the Constitution, and if she wanted to make amends, she should have stayed on the bench.
Like everyone else here I am appalled and depressed by the SCOTUS decision. To put it in a slightly different context, however, I think it betrays the mindset that takes the model employment relation to be that of a private firm or corporation, where the boss is the undisputed boss,no questions asked or you’re out on your ass. This is the hierarchical model that the Republican Party would like to impose on all of us. It’s where they live and how they think, and that they have gotten this far with it is partly a reflection of how well they have managed to destroy the union movement.
Hugh @ 12:17 pm (#63) – It’s not “til death do us part”. It’s as long as they feel they can serve. O’Connor stayed for quite some time before making the announcement she was retiring, then spent a long time afterward before Alito was confirmed. I don’t blame her at all for what she did. It’s her life, let her spend it how she wants.
Whether in practice there is any drop-off in whistleblower activity is not the point. The point is that in ruling as they have, the Court has taken the brakes off the government’s ability to retaliate or harass an employee who blows the whistle on government malfeasance. Given the reach of the government these days, do you think such retaliation would be confined to that person’s government job? Do you think there’s any possibility that the government could retaliate to the extent that a person would be virtually unemployable?
I’m a little tired of this blasé attitude that precedents established by the Supreme Court “won’t really” change anything. That’s like saying that rulings on abortion “won’t really” change anything – women will still be able to get them. Yeah – some women, but not without great cost, and not without hardship, so for a lot of women, things “really” would change.
The power is ever-so-steadily being bled out of the people and pumped into the government, which, under this administration, has shown a remarkable fondness for doing whatever it wants, to whomever it wants, whenever it wants, and has made it increasingly more difficult for anyone to do anything about it. This president has pretty much neutralized the power of the entire legislative branch – those signing statements were nothing if not a giant middle finger to Congress, and by extension, to the people.
Sure, there will still be people brave enough to speak out against the abuses of government, but when you have rulings like this, you take another step closer to the day when there will be no speaking out at all under threat of imprisonment. Think that’s an exaggeration? Six years ago, I would have thought that, too, but with what is going on now, I no longer see it as beyond the realm of possibilities.
rwcole
On NPR they were reporting that Paulson was chosen for Treasury because he would be a better spokesman for Bush’s successful handling of the economy and be able to counter the public’s differing view on this: due to high gas prices and healthcare costs. Stupid stock market hasn’t heard it seems the good news.
There was an important aspect of the great Florida Train Robbery in 2000 that was under-reported in my opinion.
The Florida State Legislature brought in constitutional lawyers (gooper crazies) to advise them on the constitutionality of cancelling the election results. The argument was that the Constitution gives the job of selecting the slate of electors to the state legislature- and not to the people- and that the state legislature can take it back at will EVEN AFTER THE ELECTION.
Had they done this- the country would have been on the verge of self-destuction- as the people learned that their right to elect their own leaders was contingent on the pleasure of a bunch of orange ranchers and shoe shop owners. It could have torn the nation apart.
I have always suspected that this was done to blackmail the supreme court to step in and stop the counting or be prepared to reap the whirlwind.
These gooper bastards were willing to destroy democracy in order to put GW Clusterfuck into office.
The issue was, of course, never decided- and the threat of the tactic being used again exists even today- as the supreme’s did not comment on it.
Would love to get Sandra Day’s perspective on that issue.
Anne @ 12:23 pm (#68) – Now civil servants will have to ask “What’s my job worth?” when faced with any lies or malfeasance by the political appointees who run their departments. That’s bad enough, as far as I’m concerned.
mk #34: I believe that section means that the President cannot prevent Congress from impeaching government officials for their offenses. The President isn’t the only one who can be impeached; he’s just the only one who cannot be charged until he is impeached. This is not an insignificant distinction; one of the consequences of impeachment is that the person is barred for life from being appointed to high office. Considering the record of the Iran-Contra criminals and the complete lack of shame in the GOP, it may be the only way to protect the country from another round of destruction by these bozos.
I understand your point EPU and hope you are right, but you have to remember – I have been a “card carrying Republican” at least once upon a time and I have less loyalty to parties and to wanting to see one or the other benefit or fail than to the overall structure within which we are all trying to operate.
Sup. Ct precedents are, for me, an awfully high price to pay to wait for the end result of them getting everything they ask for.
I do hope you are right though and I do think that what you said about the fact that whistleblowers have always known they might face retaliation and they still are just people who are tough enough to take it is true. Plus, there is nothing about the ruling that would prevent Congress from enacting a strong set of whistleblower protections – except, of course, for all the “state secret” stuff (e.g., everything).
But until such times,we now have this aspect of criminal prosecutions instead of simple job retaliation that makes me wonder how far we can push the envelope of what to expect from good people trying to do the right thing. Not just give up a job, pension, healthcare for their family – but also go to jail?
And if they do take the step, who is left with the fortitude to publish while they worry about criminal prosecutions and, far worse, loss of corporate revenue streams?
Just how MANY state secrets defenses are pending right now that are all specifically tied to allegations of actual lawbreaking by the govt? There was a good post up at HuffPo by one of the lawyers involved in one of the suits, but I am beyond bummed.
What’s the basis of this decision? Is it primarilly a matter of statute interpretation- or was it made on constitutional grounds. If based on statute- of course- it can be changed.
Forgive me for posting without reading all the comments, but doesn’t this hinge on the meaning of “pursuant to their official duties”?
Take the NASA atmospheric scientist James Hansen. In the course of his official duties as a scientist, he’s caught heat from NASA superiors for asserting the existence and seriousness of global climate change. According to this ruling, he could actually be disciplined for not toeing the line. That’s bad enough.
However, if, say, he blew the whistle to the New York Times on a boss who, say, deleted unfavorable (ie, confirmatory) data on global warming, wouldn’t that be an action not specifically pursuant to his official duties and therefore potentially still protected, even under this new ruling?
Redshift @ 71.
Thanks for the insight. Just wishful thinking I guess (should never have stopped believing in Santa…)
~
bionic #61: Done.
DOW down 167 as it heads to close. Not good!
What Anne said at 68.
cujo359
That’s rather the point. As private citizens, we can say, “It’s my life, let me live it as I wish,” but when you undertake a lifetime judicial appointment along with the power, the responsibility, and the prestige, you give up part of that “It’s my life”. Going in you know that there will come a time when ill health either your own or another’s or some other circumstance will add burdens to your life. Supreme Court justices have the security, the resources, and the duty to make provision for those times. Sandra Day O’Connor as a pivotal vote had an additional unwelcome but not unexpected burden placed upon her. I am sorry for that but that doesn’t really let her off the hook. She left at a time of national crisis, i.e. the Bush years, precisely when her moderating hand was most needed. To decry now the authoritarian tendencies of the Bush Administration when she had been in a position to restrain them seems incongruous to me to say the least.
Hugh #69: It had been bandied about quite a bit recently (I think I read it in TPM) that they wanted a Treasury Sec. who could “be a salesman”, that is, sell the administration’s policies, not make them. Supposedly the reason Snow has been around so long, even though they talked about replacing him after the election, is that no one wanted the job because the Treasury Secretary has no power in this administration (since as O’Neill discussed after leaving, there is no policymaking, it’s all driven purely by politics.)
Considering the state of the economy, the budget, currency issues with China and the euro, the fact that they don’t think they need anyone knowledgeable to make decisions at Treasury says a lot. I think it’s only the relentless short-term focus of big business types these days, plus a steady diet of tax cuts, that has kept them from bailing on this disastrous administration.
Redshift – impeachment removes from office, but doesn’t necessarily bar from future office.
It is a separate consideration as to whether they include a prohibition from having other appointed or elected office. So technically, someone could be impeached and not be barred from future office. Also, someone not currently in office could possibly be impeached for prior actions in office, for the sole purpose of then barring them from holding future office.
fwiw
not that anything anyone in this adminstration does will generate impeachment by Dems – they are frightened of investigations and impeachment. Republicans like Hastert and Sensenbrenner, however, give ratsass or less about waiting for the polling on how Americans feel about raids on Congressional offices and go ahead and plow on – kind of, well, you know, like LEADERS.
Grimey, unreliable, corrupt leaders with whom I disagree on all of the underlying arguments – but leaders. As per the old saying, Americans will pick a corrupt and inept leader over a corrupt and inept follower any ol day.
This administration’s benign neglect of Treasury in certainly an under-reported story. O’Neil’s book didn’t get anything like the audience that it deserved. He really told us the whole story- about the ineptitude, the wishful thinking, the greed, and the hubris of these jackals- and got a backpage comment for his efforts.
No one who has ever been in a key leadership position of a large organization can read his comments on the hapless leadership ability of our current president without a barf bag!
Redshift
Agreed, it just gets me how NPR and other media still have this “surprised” view of why the rest of us are concerned about the economy. It is doing well for a few. It is doing well on paper and it will continue doing well until it collapses into recession.
Redshift
Thanks! Got your email.
Mary — my mistake. Would I be correct in saying that impeachment is necessary to bar a person from future office? (That is, it isn’t automatic, but is there any other mechanism to do that?)
I have to reread the Kennedy opinion again, but does anyone else see a parallel here with military personal and speech restrictions? Are we (they) essentially conscripting public servants?
Well obviously this decision is a further loss of freedom of speech. However, trying to make lemons out of lemonade here, could it not help in a backhanded fashion in the detention camp and NSA whistleblower cases. Many of the wingnuts have been arguing that if these employees had problems with the policy and actions of the agencies they were employed in, all they had to do was “go through regular channels” to complain and not go straight to the press. IANAL, and I haven’t read the case, but from the summary it seems that if these people had gone through the “official channels” at their place of employment SCOTUS is saying they would not be protected on first amendment grounds and could be retailated against as not team players. So their best option seems to be to air their case SEPARATELY AND OUTSIDE THEIR WORKPLACE . Or am I reading this case wrong?
Thanks Anne at 12:23.
OfT: “N.Y. State Democrats Designate Eliot Spitzer As Candidate for Governor”
Is this a blow to Chuckie Schumur? I thought Schumur was supporting Tom Suozzi, the DINO all the Republicans (who Spitzer prosecuted) were contributing to.
Sandra Day already spilled the Bush vs Gore beans — she wanted a Republican to pick her successor.
I will never forgive what she did in Gore v. Bush. Why her? Because she has been fingered as declaring she wanted to retire under a Republican president, which she went ahead and did after helping to anoint Bush. She is, in my mind, the greatest betrayer of our country. Or at least the most easily-identifiable betrayer.
Everything she does now is too little, too late. As Atrios artfully put it, she can’t unshit the bed. I hope history remembers her negatively.
OT – remember that sick f**k SD state senator Bill Napoli, the one who gleefully described his fantasy of a horrific rape scene as one possible exception to the abortion ban? (”The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped…”).
Well, digby reports that he is now the subject of some well-deserved derision via a cartoon – and he’s all in a snit.
Oops, I meant Bush v. Gore. It was Bush, after all, who sought activist judges to rule in his favor.
choochmac at 88
I really should proofread more carefully before posting. Anyway, I meant to say lemonade out of lemons… :)
OT– just saw a faux reporter calling the hearing on the FBI raid this morning: rather one sided.
uh, sardonic dorkmeister, there were rethugs there ’screaming’ as loudly as any dem and Fein and a retired wingnut congressman testifying. And remember Turley wrt Clinton… not exactly a dem there.
everybody was virtually joined in siding against the executive– just say it, you speak for the King, faux news and for nothing else.
Thanks punaise.
LMAO.
I think we shoul be moving towards a mass resignation from public service.
Why would anyone want to continue on working for a government that simply loathes the everyone except to the very few at the top?
We are reaching the point where there should be Orange Revolution style mass protests in DC. Occuppy K Street. Quit your public service jobs. Fight against the government that is fighting against the people.
Give Bush his Tianamen Square moment to let his true colors shine.
-GSD
By the way–figuring in last weeks losses…just how much of a tank has the market recently endured?
-GSD
So the government as an employer, is no longer obliged to consider the first ammendment because employees are not citizens? What does that make the government? Formery of the people, against the other people? Fascists!
Bush lied again and cnn reporting on it– he was asked about Snow leaving in his dumb presser with Blair and he denied knowing anything, but cnn reveals that he offered the job to Paulson 5 days prior to the pissy presser.
Did the preznit lie? asks Wolfie.
Well, duh.
GSD at 96 -
I applaud your enthusiam for action, but resignations of the only ones in government who care about what is going on might just backfire. More job openings for the Reps to offer their friends, cousins, etc. After all, we know this administration will hire whoever agrees with them whether or not they are qualified for the job.
bit by bit, we gonna boil us a frog!
Redshift 86 – I think that’s right. There are other things (like, say, felony convictions, not being a citizen, etc.) that might prevent someone from certain offices based on those items, but in general to bar someone otherwise qualified I cannot think of anything that would do it other than prior impeachment forbidding future office.
I’m not sure, but I tend to think you’ve got it.
CNN and FBI Breaking News!!!
Jimmy Hoffa still missing! Nothing found at the Nichigan Farm!
Hugh @ 12:40 pm (#81) – That’s rather the point.
Yes, and I was saying that your point was wrong. You don’t give up your life to be a government appointee. You alter it, sure, but it’s not indentured servitude. O’Connor held the post for as long as she could, and then gave it up. If she was going to be distracted by events at home, I don’t want her on the court, anyway. I’m not interested in seeing justices leaving the court feet first. What kind of law are we going to get out of people who have weak hearts or debilitating illnesses? “If you can’t do the job any more, then leave” is a good policy in any profession.
If the Congress and the President fail to appoint a worthy successor, that’s their failing, not hers.
nor in Michigan either!
knut #66
Yes!!! My anti-authoritarian nature is the kernel of my visceral dislike (trying to be polite here) of the Chimpians.
The only thing trumping that is the disgust I feel about their inhumanity to non-Chimpians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5031738.stm
Global sell-off hits share prices
World share prices have fallen sharply again, this time due to concerns over surging oil prices, rising interest rates and jittery US consumers.
Share dealers across Europe had their fingers on the sell button, with the leading indexes in France, Germany and the UK all falling by nearly 2.5%.
In the US leading shares were down just over 1% towards the close of trade.
Global markets have been volatile in recent weeks, worried about signs that the US economy is overheating.
Mary @ 12:43 pm (#82) – Unfortunately, that’s true, at least in that the Democrats don’t have effective leaders. My guess, though, is that they (the Democrats in Congress, mind you), don’t want them. How many of them are speaking out as individuals? It’s a handful, really. They elected Pelosi and Reid because they wouldn’t make them do more than they were willing to do on their own.
The Republicans, in contrast, seem to be well motivated to do what they’re doing. I never knew that ruining the country you’re supposed to be running could be so fulfilling, but there you go.
Given the whole flap with how the political employees relate to the hard scientists in government service (CDC, NASA, Fish and Wildlife, NOAA, etc.), I shudder to think what effect this will have on their work.
It’s already hard enough to get good scientists to work for “the people” by taking a government position; now, if political appointees decide to censor their research publications, they have but one option – resignation. In academia, it’s “publish or perish”; in BushCo’s government, it’s “publish AND perish.”
Is it any wonder that Bush had such a time finding someone to head up Treasury? Let’s see: how can we make public service even less attractive?
*ilson46201 @ 1:13 pm (#104) – I still say he’s with Bigfoot, Elvis, and JFK in Al Capone’s vault. Hope the air filtration system is good in there – I hear Elvis is really fond of starch.
I’ll take this opportunity to repeat a previous offer/request.
I own the domain therobertscourt.org and would like to give it to someone(s) who will use it for analyzing SCOTUS decisions for non-lawyers. Or just gathering the links to posts like this one from progressive blogs. Anything of use. If anyone is interested, let me know via the contact form on my site.
Just in time for Fitzmas! Can’t fault that timing.
SCOTUS wants to go on eviscerating the 4th amendment for drug dealers, not for Bush administration officials. It just ain’t as fun.
Mary and Anne) – Sorry, I don’t think I am being blase (I wish I could get that accent on the “e”). Do I think their motivation is to silence critics? Yes. But that doesn’t change my opinion. I don’t see any difference between the reality facing a whistle blower prior to the decision and the reality after.
I think the analogy to abortion is simply misplaced. I wouldn’t place employees’ rights to speak as EMPLOYEES (even government employees under guise of the first amendment) on the same constitutional level as PERSONAL liberty/privacy rights. If you are analogizing to something like a constitutional right to government funding of abortions you might be on to something, but I don’t think that was your point.
The better analogy would be to drug laws and drug enforcement, (although I am not sure how or why we made the leap to criminalization versus de facto “civil” retaliation against whistleblowers at this point in time), which have done nothing to stop drugs from entering the country or prevent drug use.
The reality is you can’t stop information from coming out, you can’t silence the critics, no matter how hard you try or what laws you pass.
OT’s from below
Bloomberg link was excellent. Why is it that Bloomberg seems so often to be boldly going where Doe eyed (or would that be dough eyed) MSM refuses? There is actually a thought process beyond stenography in most of the Bloomberg pieces I hav seen.
LHP – If I get any credit for you delurking I’ll be, like, ya know, popular by extension *g*
I think I understand what you are saying, but IMO there was a lot of help creating the monster we are dealing with now, and for someone who was in the laboratory helping with the creation to get a bye on running off bc it suddenly occurs to them they’re in the room with a monster – I’m not as sympathetic as I could be.
That’s not the same as wanting anything bad to happen to anyone and there are certainly way too many ways for someone to get hurt these days saying anything that isn’t partyline. I may have to recharacterize. I guess I am sympathetic; just terribly disappointed and not particularly impressed.
Mary @ 73 – do you have a link to that lawyer at Hoffpo? I’d like to read his comments. Yes, it’s very depressing and quite scary what’s happening to this country. Here’s a link to a good article by Paul Craig Roberts about the situation.
http://www.informationclearing…..e13418.htm
newtonusr @ 12:53 pm (#87) – No, because civil servants can leave their jobs any time they want. Military personnel have only a limited number of options in that regard, many unpleasant.
However, it will probably have the effect of silencing people who would have spoken out otherwise, or they will avoid government service in favor of other occupations where they’re allowed to speak their minds.
The sweet smell of democracy, Bush style:
“The curfew on Tuesday came a day after at least seven people were killed in the worst anti-US riots since foreign forces overthrew the Taliban government in 2001.
Earlier in the day there were two Afghan army tanks on the road leading to the city centre from the site where the riots broke out on Monday after a US forces vehicle was involved in a fatal crash.”
-GSD
there is no more jurisprudence in those united states that is worthy of the name
it possesses the high comedy of the marx bros ‘duck soup’ but it has also through its schmittian/straussian roots – a mirror of the courts of the infamous national socialist judge freiser
& let it not be forgotten that the single profession, that of the law were disproportionately represented in the nsdpa even before 1933 – it was lawyers who helped to gut the republic of rights & laws
it is so today in those united states
rwcole:
Re: the 2000 Florida vote debacle. I recall that amazing episode – the rethug lawyer team including Grand Master James Baker and the discussion regarding delegates/electoral votes, ie: that the electoral votes could be shitcanned or recast by this handful of people – the electors of the electoral college. That WAS an amazingly brazen piece of work.
Was that part of the fiasco before or after the FLORIDA State Supreme Court had ruled in favor of Gore?
new thread – new candidate
EPU – I didn’t mean you were being blasAA (since I can’t do the accent thing either). I was more focused on the “gang of 14″ and how abysmal the performance of the Dems re: these lifetime appointments. I think that disturbing and lasting Sup. Ct. precedent is an incredibly high price to pay for their inaction and faint heart.
I agree with the essence of what you are saying about employee rights to speak re: policy and office matters in general, but I also believe that where there is actual misconduct, that a citizen, even standing in the shoes of an employee, should never be required to not speak out about govt misconduct. So I do think that is a First amendment/constitutional issue.
IOW, political speech was the heart of the 1st, and discussion of political misconduct (not disagreed upon policy, but misconduct) is a constitutional issue IMO, whether or not the citizen derives their information about the misconduct through their status as an employee or not. fwiw – but mostly responding to say I didn’t mean to imply you weren’t as googly as you need to be. At least, not in this universe of googliness.
OT: “lions led by donkeys” by john rogers at kung fu monkey
one of the finest smackdowns on chickenhawks i’ve read to date. meaty snark worth of jane herself. he takes his time developing his argument so it’s impossible to capture the piece’s totality in a few paragraphs, but here’s some of the more substantive tidbits:
“… The fact that Warren took this particular tack (and we can toss Ben Ferguson’s “I support the Yankees, doesn’t mean I wear their uniform” crack in there), however, finally clarifies for me disconcerting problem exposed by many of the hawks’ own arguments. It may be arrogant of me — it can not help but be arrogant of me, I suppose — to say that they fundamentally misunderstand what their relationship to the troops should be.
There is truth in the idea that soldiers are our designated warriors. But the accidental revelation in these attitudes is the bizarre concept that by soldiers choosing a life of taking risks on our behalf, these war supporters are somehow absolved of any responsibility to them other than emotional support and approval. There is the stink of … the troops as employees. Like, say, gardeners. Not that I would ever make such a crude comparison.”
[snip]
“… That these unquestioning war devotees will not sacrifice their lives, their comfort, their safety: that’s hardly a sin in modern society. But they are not even willing to risk emotional discomfort by admitting their faith has been misplaced. That they will not even risk this, this tiny, tiny thing … that is the sin. It is not that that you’re not risking your life. It’s that you are risking nothing.”
one of the best reads of my day.
EPU – just so we’re clear, the analogy to abortion wasn’t about the legal or the constitutional issues, but to the “nothing will really change” aspect of your earlier comments.
Given the increasing threats to journalists over leaking, it seems to me that a government employee may find fewer avenues to disclosing important information. If both the media and the employee face unpleasant consequences – whether that is criminal prosecution, firing, demotion, or harassment – it seems to me that an atmosphere has been created which is more conducive to abuse than to accountability.
Not a welcome shift in the direction of the country, and certainly not a victory for the people who, after all, are supposed to be the government.
Glad to see that a few have O’Connor’s number right on. Get real, people. Had she not joined the hardcore four, in all likelihood Bush wouldn’t be sitting pretty. I hope history remembers her for her real legacy, that of a piss poor lawyer who loved her party better than her country.
Just one very important question…can an employee QUIT, and then leak???
From Souter’s Dissent:
Now I don’t pretend to understand the legal stuff here, but the issue he’s raising is Academic Freedom. Is he seeing further down the road? Like next week when one of David Horowitz’s brown shirts decides to take a professor to court for his speech?
“Think not that you can remain passive and indifferent to the common danger, and thus escape the common fate.” ~ Tecumseh
darkblack @ 11,
I’ll give you a nod even if no one else will. Funny shit. Christ knows there are lots more Clockwork expressions in this administration:
a bit of the old ultra-corruption
a bit of the old ultra-incompetence
etc.
A nice stake in the heart of the very concept of the individual citizen. We take it for granted that corporate man does not speak for himself but for the interest of the larger group, the corporation. It’s very important that the court makes clear that government employees are forbidden from acting as individuals. In the corporate case self censorship and hewing to the party line are second nature because rewards for doing so are obvious, as are the punnishments for straying off the farm. It’s not so easy with government. Well it wasn’t till now and I’m sure this will be fleshed out more in the future.
The final triupmh will come when the government and The Party are synonomous. While the currently are there is still the slight possibility that such isn’t permanent. All in good time. All in good time.
FBI whistleblower Sybil Edmunds recently fingered Dennis Hastert publicly as receiving bribes from Turkish sources, and claimed that her disclosure of that fact was the reason she was fired. Perhaps this was payback to Hasert for his support of the new SCOTUS judges.
angie @ 99:
Camera 1 on Leslie…
Cue the theme…
;>)
Technical difficulties…Cue the Theme…
;>)
A secret government speaking in riddles collecting information about the people it wants to control. How is this good?
Hey George W.,
Why do the Republicans hate us for our freedoms?
Why didn’t Scalia recuse himself from this case? His son was the top lawyer at the Labor Department and a stack of whistleblower cases went forward, with Little Scalia’s signature on many of the court documents that were adverse to the whistleblowers (and often contained false statements under oath). It seems like Little Scalia’s daddy is just too close to the situation to be writing supreme court opinions that help bail his son out. Is that what they mean by family values?
I was unable to reply yesterday, so thaks for putting up this explanation for me.
It helps a lot.
further, I think it shows how scared the Bushists are of thee revelations about their illgal activities.