There is no evidence whatsoever that their talk [MEChA’s] of “Aztlan” reflects an intent to “invade” the United States. What it reflects is a belief that they have a historical right to be here, and moreover, that they intend to fully enfranchise themselves politically — as Americans.

Right. And Herr Hitler simply thought he had a right to Austria, Poland, and Checheslovakia and wanted to fully enfranchise its German population.

What you’re eliding, moreover, is that the obsession with “Aztlan” — which, as far as Latinos are concerned, mostly appears in a few relatively obscure ’60s-era documents and among a fringe hate group (La Voz de Aztlan) — has previously been the purview almost solely of white supremacists: American Patrol, VDare, American Renaissance, the National Alliance, the CofCC, the Barnes Review. That’s who draws up these maps, and touts the claims of an “invasion” incessantly.

On the contrary, you’ll find an Aztlan map as an emblem at this MEChA website: http://www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/utepmecha.html. Most MEChA sites use the term “Aztlan” and many link to copies of “El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan.” And these MEChA chapters are not fringe groups. They were central to the organization of the recent pro-immigration rallies of which the antiracism community is so proud. I find that baffling.

My wording was probably imprecise, though: I should have said “racist hate groups” instead of “white supremacist groups” and would have been perfectly accurate.

Only if you are willing to include MEChA in that category.

I’ve discussed the MEChA claims numerous times, most notably here and here. There is no evidence whatsoever that their talk of “Aztlan” reflects an intent to “invade” the United States. What it reflects is a belief that they have a historical right to be here, and moreover, that they intend to fully enfranchise themselves politically — as Americans.

What you’re eliding, moreover, is that the obsession with “Aztlan” — which, as far as Latinos are concerned, mostly appears in a few relatively obscure ’60s-era documents and among a fringe hate group (La Voz de Aztlan) — has previously been the purview almost solely of white supremacists: American Patrol, VDare, American Renaissance, the National Alliance, the CofCC, the Barnes Review. That’s who draws up these maps, and touts the claims of an “invasion” incessantly.

My wording was probably imprecise, though: I should have said “racist hate groups” instead of “white supremacist groups” and would have been perfectly accurate.

–KOLD News 13, ‘Horse Trailer Carrying Dozens Of Illegal Immigrants Crashes’, 30 March 2006

How about stopping American companies from outsourcing jobs to feed their bottom line? Having tax subsidies to send our jobs away?

Great Idea! My suggestion, on this very site a few days ago, was $1,000 and 1 day in jail per day per illegal that any company owner employed. If a small business accidentally employed 1 or 2 illegals for a few days and got caught it’s not crippling, but if a company makes it a practice they are as good as fucked.

How about really punishing companies and individuals who hire illegal aliens? Or are you ready to pay $1.25 for a grape? No? Didn’t think so.

Companies, who have means to verify their legality yes, I say punish em. Individuals who can’t possibly know if they’re legal or illegal shouldn’t be punished.

As for your $1.25 grape, thats horse shit and you know it. Illegals represent a small %(around 15% last i read something about it) of workers in the agriculture industry , the rest are Americans who won’t take those kinds of jobs. The cost is still low despite the industry mostly paying legal wages to Americans so try again. Not to mention that such a large amount of our fruit is imported from countries who legally use low-wage workers. So like I said, your $1.25 grapes are a lie just like other peoples $3.00 lettuce. It’s a straw man which is easily torn down, because companies who abuse illegal labor do not pass those savings along to the consumer. They charge us as if they were paying full price and pocket the difference and if you think any different you are nieve.

Where’s your outrage about all the people coming into this country from our water (We kinda have a lot of coastline, you know), and from, oh CANADA. But that’s different because they’re not Mexicans, you know, BROWN people?

I have no outrage about this, my only outrage is at being called a racist for being concearned about this very real issue. I believe we should work on the biggest part of the problem first(Mexican border) then move on to the next biggest, and most offensive part(chinese people being shipped in frieght containers through our ports), then, if it’s still a problem address the Canadian border which is a very minor source of illegal immigration.

How about having a foreign policy that actively engages with Mexico to get with this century in regards to its economy? Oh, and while you’re at it, stop letting American companies go over there just because they find it “inconvenient” not to be able to poison our water and air here, and don’t want to pay even the wages they would illegals over here, hm?

I don’t consider it to be Americas place to try to force other countries to have an acceptable (to us) foriegn policy. It’s none of our business in Iraq and it’s none of our business in Mexico. Certainly I would encourage them to raise themselves up in living standards, and get a control on their population growth. However, to either force them or to facilitate it with American tax money is wrong in my eyes.

You come on here and attack the people here, rather than addressing an issue that is far more complicated than “build a wall, send ‘em back). It is NOT that easy. I can assure you that anyone who attempts to put up a wall down there is in for a very, very rude surprise.

You got it wrong, I came here and was attacked, as a racist, because I am concearned about illegal-immigration. And perhaps a wall won’t help, infact I would say it probably won’t, but it will still help more than putting your fingers in your ears and shouting “la-la-la there is no problem la-la-la”.

Spew your hate somewhere else. You’re not fooling us.

A quote so beautiful I must rest on it twice. Thanks again for proving my point.

You have now revealed plenty with that remark about my “super-secret liberal dictionary.”

Not as much as you revealed by accusing me of racism for politely stating an unfortunate fact.

I’m not coddling anyone who is essentially telling me that, if I get a bit feisty about the racism angle, they’ll go running into the arms of the Republicans in response.

My point, as you should have been able to figure out by now, was neither about coddling anyone nor was it about them running to republicans. My point, as I’ve tried earnestly to communicate is that democrats should not use racism to flog anyone who is concearned about illegal immigration. It’s a poison pill that Rove sent to your party and some of you seem to be gulping it down like candy.

A HUGE portion of non-racist America has legitimate and serious concearns about 3 million illegal immigrants coming across our border each year. Why can’t you see that it is not racism? Are their racist among those concearned? Sure they are. Just like there are some aztlan believers among the immigrant movement. Like it or not groups like that will ride legitimate issues whenever possible. But lemme guess. Claiming that there might be a handful of Mexican immigranst who actually believe the shit aztlan organisations are spewing is racist of ME huh?

Anyway, back to my point, you can continue to paint average Americans, who are willing to recognise this problem, as racist and you can watch a really shitty political party get elected for simply being willing to not call them bigots(which they aren’t so it’s YOUR SIDE being dishonest this time). Won’t that make you all feel pretty fucking special in November? To lose an election – to Republicans – by being dishonest.

If you truly care about all those low-wage workers

I don’t. I care about America and Americans. Right now we have a bunch of lunatics in the White house driving the country straight to shit town. I would like for the Democrats to stop the bleeding and I would appreciate it if the fringe of the Democrat party didn’t alienate huge chunks of the voting public by dishonestly calling them racists.

But if your petticoats get in a wad because some people on the right side of workers in America get a bit snarky about the racism issue that is indeed a part of this (you don’t see Minutement taking guns to the Canadian border, do you?), enough that you will vote against the people your tormentors endorse

First off, the worry is not that they will vote for Republicans. Republicans have a large(bigger than yours) block of voters who WILL vote for them. The worry is that the millions of people who can’t stand the Republicans, the ones the dems are counting on to put them into office, but who aren’t politically savvy, will be DISCOURAGED from voting by being called bigots by dems. And for the record I don’t know of minutement using guns on any border. They have been a strictly non-voilent group as far as I can tell. What they do is look at illegals crossing and call the border patrol, how hateful of them.

who will find a reasonable solution that causes the least harm to both the workers and the desperate people who come here

That’s not what you are promoting with your racism spewing. Your ilk are not looking for a reasonable solution because to you the only reasonable solution is to say that illegals are no problemo. Evidenced by your accusations of racism levied against anyone who even faintly suggests that it IS a problem.

The Democrats haven’t given a shit about American workers since they sold out the labor unions and they get no credit from me for offering no solution and calling it a solution. Don’t misunderstand me as saying the republicans do care. They don’t. Neither side does, maybe that’s the fucking problem, what do you think?

You sometimes have to endure people who aren’t always pleasant, 24/7 about issues they care about.

That’s all I’ve been trying to say to you this whole time but maybe you’re too thick to realise it’s a two way street.

Believe it or not, if you tolerated the average guys concearns without screaming bigot you might be able to find some common ground. Most people don’t want to shoot mexicans at the border, they just want to stop the flood.