
(This post comes from the amazing David Neiwart of Orcinus. This is another of a continuing series of posts on race issues in America that David has cross-posted at FDL, and we are so grateful that he’s sharing this with us this evening. — Christy)
There’s a perfectly simple reason that white supremacists and far-right extremists keep popping up in the immigration debate: the anti-immigrant right is just talking their game. They’re naturally drawn to the cause because it is their cause.
So that’s why you’ll be seeing a lot more instances of mainstream talking heads drawing up well-established talking points created by the white-supremacist right years ago: Michelle Malkin ranting about the ‘Reconquista’ theory, or Bill O’Reilly nattering about defending the "white power structure", or most recently, Lou Dobbs citing the CofCC as a reputable source in discussing the "Aztlan" claims.
Steve Gilliard notes that Dobbs’ report includes a presumption that the "Aztlan" theory is a legitimate one, and makes a particularly vicious characterization of Vicente Fox’s current visit to the States:
WIAN: You could call this the Vicente Fox Aztlan tour, since the three states he’ll visit, Utah, Washington, and California, are all part of some radical group’s vision of the mythical indigenous homeland — Lou.
As we’ve pointed out numerous times, the only "radical groups" making these claims are white supremacist groups.
Digby, as always, nails it:
When these things happen nobody, it seems, are aware of the CCC’s views. I am sure that Lou Dobbs will say the same. He’s only a credentialed journalist, after all. You can’t expect him to have nose for racist propaganda.
This certainly does bring up an interesting question for me, however. I never thought of the CCC as being a white supremacist organization in the mode of say "Stormfront" or something like that. It’s a neo-confederate group which is certainly racist but organized explicitly around hatred of African-Americans. The fact that they are touting the ridiculous Aztlan "threat" puts the lie to any claims that this immigration debate isn’t being fueled by racism. (Not that that’s a big surprise.)
No, it’s not. Neither is it a big surprise that the leading anti-immigrant enterprise, the Minutemen, is constantly being infiltrated by neo-Nazis, or that so many of their spinoff groups are riddled throughout with extremists and racists, some going so far as to ally themselves with neo-Nazis.
The Minutemen, of course, make much ado about their efforts to "weed out the racists," though of course the reality is that their success is mixed at best.
What nobody seems to ask, though, is why they have to "weed out the racists" in the first place. If the core of their appeal isn’t racial in nature, then why do they draw so many people for whom it is?
This is not a problem for most liberal groups — say, the ACLU, or MoveOn.org. This is a problem largely on the right, and it’s particularly pronounced among the nativist right in the current immigration debate.
Down in Alabama, a Minuteman leader made news by publicly drumming out a white supremacist:
An activist who distributed copies of a white supremacist newspaper at a rally against illegal immigration was banned from future events by the group that helped stage the rally, a leader of the organization said Wednesday.
Mike Vanderboegh, a spokesman for the Alabama Minutemen, said a woman he identified as Carolyn Edwards wasn’t welcome at future demonstrations by his group, which helped put on a rally Tuesday in Birmingham during a national caravan against illegal immigrants.
Vanderboegh identified Edwards as a longtime activist with the white supremacist Christian Identity movement.
People like Vanderboegh serve a useful function to groups like the Minutemen: they avidly try to expell white supremacists and loudly publicize it when they do so, even though their efforts amount to a finger in the dike.
The Southern Poverty Law Center has more on Vanderboegh:
After spending parts of October patrolling the border in New Mexico, Mike Vanderboegh and the two or three others who made up his Alabama Minuteman Support Team decided they’d had enough. Despite the presence of an alluring array of military toys — "night vision devices, global positioning systems, portable seismic intrusion detectors and ham radios" — the men, all once associated with the militia movement of the 1990s, decided to call it quits. Apparently, their citizens’ patrol, aimed at keeping illegals out of America, proved less than thrilling.
As of Nov. 1, the tiny group gave itself another name — the Alabama Minuteman Surveillance Team — and the mission of making life miserable for any business that hired undocumented workers. "We hereby put exploitative employers and crooked politicians on notice," Vanderboegh declared after ending the patrols and deciding to return to Alabama to concentrate on the situation there. "We intend to make it toxic for anyone doing public or private business to use illegals. If I were a politician in Alabama right now, I’d start getting REAL careful about who I accepted money from. Because we’re fixin’ to flip on the light switch."
Vanderboegh makes a useful illustration of this PR-driven sleight-of-hand, because he performed almost exactly the same function as a member of the militia movement in the 1990s:
I remember Vanderboegh vividly as a bellicose fellow who decided he was going to drum the racists out of the militia movement. At one point, he got into a very public Usenet spat with Kirk Lyons, who was fresh off a victory of sorts in helping negotiate an end to the Freemen standoff in Montana.
Lyons, you see, was closely associated with a number of racist-right figures, and was also the attorney for one Andreas Strassmeier. Because he was a sometime resident of the white-supemacist enclave Elohim City in the Ozarks — a place Timothy McVeigh was believed to have stayed in during the runup to the Oklahoma City Bombing — Strassmeier was linked by a number of conspiracy theorists to the bombing as well.
One of the first of these was Vanderboegh, who operated an anti-SPLC Web site for awhile called Dees Watch, and at one point was a spokesman for Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Vanderboegh had been affiliated early on with the Gadsden Militia, and then formed his own branch.
It was from there that he launched his attacks on Lyons. Vanderboegh had a special spin on the Oklahoma City tragedy: that it had been a government setup, using Strassmeier and a gang of bank robbers in an arcane plot to frame the militia movement. So when Lyons posted on a Usenet forum devoted to militias, Vanderboegh wrote a polemic denouncing Nazis’ presence in the militias and insisting they be run out. A portion of it:
I’ll leave it to the gentle readers to decide who, and what, you represent. Nazi or Nazi snitch? It matters only to your inlaws, your "clients" past and present, your paymasters, and to the juries that will judge you, here and in the Hereafter. It’s crimes I’m concerned with, Kirk. Specifically, a certain mass murder in Oklahoma that you and your client(s) know a hell of a lot more than your "little ole me?" manner wants to admit.
As Dan Yurman reported at the time, much of Vanderboegh’s fulminations formed the basis for an actual cottage industry in conspiracy theories about Oklahoma City.
Vanderboegh’s schtick, really, hasn’t changed. He’s every bit as impotent in terms of effectively driving the racists and extremists out of the Minutemen as he was in the militia movement.
Part of the reason is that Vanderboegh — protests notwithstanding — is pretty clearly an extremist himself, prone to conspiracy theorizing and violent talk about armed uprisings. As the SPLC report notes:
Vanderboegh has consistently portrayed himself as a moderate, first in the militia world and now in the anti-immigration movement. But he hasn’t always sounded that way. Back in the mid-1990s, he wrote a document entitled "Strategy and Tactics for a Militia Civil War" in which he discussed the utility of snipers using "violence carefully targeted and clearly defensive: war criminals, secret policemen, rats (Pitcavage take note)."
But the larger problem is that the Minutemen’s core appeal is not to freshly awakened post-9/11 concerns about border security, but rather deliberately fomented racial fears about preserving "white culture" [see: privilege]. This has always been the racist right’s bailiwick, so of course they’re going to come swimming around when the water is rich with familiar scents, as sharks are wont to do.
That was certainly the case with the militia movement as well. Perhaps more tellingly, the common dynamic was for seemingly "normal" conservatives to be increasingly radicalized by the movement, to the point of becoming outright extremists.
The clearest example of this is a fellow named Matthew Ramsey, who back in the mid-1990s ran a militia-oriented TV show on public-access cable in Snohomish County, just north of Seattle. He called himself "Jim Ramm" on air and adopted a bellicose anti-government stance, but seemed a normal guy.
My friend Scott North at the Everett Herald wrote a feature on him in 1996 (not online):
Young, college educated and articulate, Matthew Ramsey doesn’t fit the stereotype of an unsmiling militiaman.
But neither does his public access television show.
"Militia TV" has a low-tech, campy feel that Ramsey agrees may best be described as the "patriot" movement meets "Wayne’s World," the fictional program produced by two Aurora, Ill., teens with their own public-access show.
Ramsey’s show has been airing for about two months, every Monday at 4:30 p.m., on Viacom, Channel 29, said Kay Deazy, the cable company’s director of community relations.
Ramsey, 32, of Snohomish, is a member of the Washington State Militia. He said his show tries to present a different perspective on militias.
"They’ve not really been represented properly in the media," he said. “There has been a lot of misrepresentation. I feel there are two sides to every coin, and their side has not been properly explored. There are a lot of pissed off people out there, dude."
In a typical show, Ramsey goes into his home studio, dresses in camouflage, and rails against gun control or the ban on manufacturing assault-style weapons.
He also plays portions of videotapes from the Militia of Montana, detailing the alleged New World Order conspiracy, and music videos from far-right rocker Carl Klang, whose songs warn of coming combat between armed citizens and oppressive government.
As the program airs, the telephone number for Washington State Militia headquarters in Whatcom County repeatedly flashes on the screen.
John Pitner, the group’s executive director, said he’s proud to see a member of his organization going on cable.
"We are trying to get the message out," Pitner said. "We don’t want our children growing up in a bankrupt police state."
Pitner claims nearly 6,000 militia members in the state, roughly 1,500 in Snohomish County alone. Some of those members are organized in secret "squads," he said.
Ramsey said he joined the militia about nine months ago after coming across a militia business card while attending a gun show at the Snohomish County-owned Evergreen State Fairgrounds in Monroe. He said he has participated in militia exercises, including basic marksmanship and orienteering.
During his broadcasts, Ramsey uses the stage name "Jim Ram," and takes steps to obscure his identity, including wearing sunglasses, putting on camouflage face paint and using tape editing techniques, such as "colorizing."
Ramsey said he is serious about the program, and has 26 episodes already on tape, enough shows to air without reruns for six months.
The offerings include reports about recent Washington State Militia meetings in Mount Vernon and Fife. He’s also prepared shows that stir strong emotions among self-styled patriots, including alternative theories about last year’s Oklahoma City bombing and the deadly 1993 standoff involving members of a religious sect and federal agents at Waco, Texas.
What viewers won’t see is material advancing racism, Ramsey said. He’s solidly against groups such as Idaho-based Aryan Nations, whose members he describes as "traitors."
I remember Scott telling me that he offered Ramsey clear evidence of white-supremacist involvement, and vowing he would do his best to run them off.
What became of Ramsey?
Well, within a few years, he was organizing Aryan Nations events in northern Idaho, and had moved to the Portland area. There, he set up shop as the Tualatin Valley Skins, a neo-Nazi group, and claimed to a reporter that he had a wife and family when, according to his mother, that was not the case.
OlyUnity has much more on Ramsey.
Most recently, "Jim Ramm" has been organizing neo-Nazi rallies in Olympia and Seattle. His neo-Nazi Web site (NukeIsrael.com) features a collection of vile racist material and also names your humble author a "race traitor".
And of course, the central theme of several of Ramm’s recent neo-Nazi rallies has been … immigration.
The arc of Jim Ramm’s career is fairly typical of True Believers drawn to the extremist right. And one of the most disturbing aspects of the Minutemen, and the nativist right generally, is how they’re creating a whole new generation of them.
Especially with the media portraying their views as mainstream.
Under those circumstances, you can no sooner stop the tide of racism within the anti-immigrant right than you can hold back a river swollen with rain and fear.
(Screen grab from the Lou Dobbs show via LiberalOasis.)
Related posts:
- Minuteman Killer Co-Hosted Anti-Immigration Event in 2007 Featuring Tom Tancredo, Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson
- GRITtv Live: Is Immigration Reform Dead?
- Irrefutable Proof that Holocaust Museum Shooter Wasn’t One of DHS’s “Right-Wing Extremists”
- Coming Soon: The Super New New Public Option “Compromise”
- AL Gov: Rep. Artur Davis Attacked for Health Care Vote by Primary Opponent





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FITZ
fitz!
diversity!
diversifitz!
fitz
stateproject-maryland rocks!
Sorry for fitzing, just got the competitive urge!
Clearly, the extremist GOP right wing has decided to go racist in a big way to preserve their hegemony over us. They must be gambling that hispanics won’t bother voting. I’m guessing they’re dead wrong and will be buried in the next couple of elections.
Oh, and “Fitz!!!”
The CNN people involved in this disgusting affair should either apologize profusely or resign immediately, or both.
Leisureguy!
LeisureFitz!
{{{{{Kobe, Jane}}}}}}
JIM RAM????
paging mr. darkblack………
Evening all!
Today is Bob Dylan’s 65th birthday – makes me feel very old.
Thank you, David, for your important post. You are probably too young to know that Dylan has addressed the issue in “The Lonesome Death of Hattie Caroll.”
Welcome, David, and thanks for this wonderful post. It’s always heartening when those brave enough to turn over the rocks visit FDL to tell about your findings.
Here’s the thing I don’t get about Aztlan, though. I know it’s illegitimate, but is it supposed to be scary? As a Californian, the opportunity to leave BushCo hegemony to become a citizen of Vicente Fox’s Mexico is appealing, to me. I’d rather go to Vancouver, but if I can stay here AND change citizenship? Where do I sign up?
They are trying to mask racism by making it an issue of economics or nationalism — but once the veneer is scraped away, it’s still racism.
Framing. That’s it is, ultimately; words they use to position themselves, but they’re still racists.
When reading Before the Storm about Barry Goldwater’s playing around with “fake” tribal membership, it occurred to me this was another way to put a veneer on it, make the issue of being an indigenous person merely a matter of playing around. Maybe Goldwater didn’t see it that way, but it certainly didn’t sound like he was making a real effort of outreach to the indigenous Americans. What is it, then, once we strip away the fun of role playing? A method by which Goldwater and other s of his “tribe” minimalized the native American experience, right there in the mythical “Aztlan”?
Now they’ve dropped that mask and picked up others. Fakery, framing hiding racism.
Just found this little polling nugget from Gallup- don’t know for sure what it has to do with rascism- but probably something!
.
“Which of the following statements comes closest to describing your views about the Bible? The Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word. The Bible is the inspired word of God, but not everything in it should be taken literally. OR, The Bible is an ancient book of fables, legends, history, and moral precepts recorded by man.”
.
Actual
Word of God Inspired
Word of God Fables Unsure
% % % %
5/8-11/06 28 49 19 3
5/2-5/05 32 47 18 3
11/04 34 48 15 3
12/02 30 52 15 3
2/01 27 49 20 4
6/98 33 47 17 3
7-8/80 40 45 10 6
8/76 38 45 13 5
Your work always blows me away, David.
EPU’d.
262 neurophius says:
May 24th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
BREAKING NEWS. John McCain, on Larry King Live (CNN), virtually endorses Joe Lieberman. Says he hopes Joementum wins the primary, and when pressed by King about the general election, McCain says “I’m a loyal Republican” but makes it clear they are good friends and he hopes Lieberman stays in the Senate.
Just what the Connecticut Democrats need%u2013a right wing Republican telling them who to nominate to represent their party.
The pump won’t work cause the vandals took the handles.
neurophius at 6:51 p.m.
If Joementum had been there in the studio, I swear McCain would have kissed him.
MSNBC breaking news headline:
“Prosecutor in CIA leak case says Cheney could be called to testify.”
No details yet.
Well, all that convinces -me-, but I think we need a short snappy version. How about: “Protocols of the Elders of Aztlan?”
Prosecutor in CIA leak case says Cheney could be called to testify.
Wow! Fitz is actually commenting on something?! That’s news in itself!
Tribalism.
Our species has great difficulty with “other tribes,” however defined. “Not like us” is very threatening. We’re descended from roving bands that got ’round to delineating territories like chimps and baboons and virtually every other creature on this planet. (Of course, it’s much more intricate than that, but this ain’t an anthropology/sociobiology blog.)
Some of us, the more fearless (liberal and progressive) of our species, have managed to extend membership in the tribe to the entire human family. Little kids do it all the time. Then their parents and their community start butting in.
Each different wave of ethnic or racial folk who came in for the territorial defense. So now it’s illegal “aliens.” I wonder who wet-nurses and nannies the children of those minutemen (I have a different definition of that! hrm. . .) who so heroically defend our borders against the brown tide.
I need a big dose of Fitz.
See for yourself -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Still no details, just a banner headline.
OT – Reuters “A U.S. Justice Department official denied a report on Wednesday that the speaker of the House of Representatives, Dennis Hastert, is under investigation by the FBI in connection with a corruption probe.”
Cheney may be called in CIA leak case
TONI LOCY
Associated Press
WASHINGTON – Vice President Cheney could be called to testify in the perjury case against his former chief of staff, a special prosecutor said in a court filing Wednesday.
Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald suggested Cheney would be a logical government witness because he could authenticate notes he jotted on a July 6, 2003, New York Times op-ed article by a former U.S. ambassador critical of the Iraq war.
BobbyG @ 21
He’ll testify that he was asleep and doesn’t remember disclosing anything.
David, I tend to get lost in your posts because I have to link to everything. How you face this disturbing subject is beyond my understanding, but it is so valuable and helpful. Living in New England, I think we’re insulated from this wave of Aryan Nation hate and fear, but that’s dreaming, isn’t it? They are all around us, being Ghosts and inciting their scary agenda. I appreciate your careful reporting about this and bringing it to us at firedoglake. We really value your perspective.
re: #27
Cheney will refuse on Executive Privilege and National Security Grounds?
David, thanks for another well-researched and thought-provoking piece. A more general point about racism- where I live (red-state metropolis) there is plenty of racism already, and many ethnic or “racial” groups- and the racism is not simply white against brown or white against black (and black against white), it seems to go in all directions- African americans vs. hispanics, Vietnamese vs. African americans, Chinese vs. hispanics and so on. So while the push right now is coming from white extremist groups, the focus on hispanics as targets is drawing support from racists of other ethic groups. The anti-immigration protesters in videos and pix I’ve seen- mainly lily white, but by no means exclusively so. In short my point is that when the term “racist” is used in the context of the present troubles one automatically thinks “white racists”. But the divisiveness that being stirred up and reinforced cuts a broader swath.
“Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald suggested Cheney would be a logical government witness. . .”
Woo-ee, doesn’t that beg for verification?
Hypatia
Check it
Warning! Sad monkey pics!
I wonder how the Minutemen are doing with their recently-recruited urban blacks. That one never made much sense to me: take people )almost certainly not Spanish speaking) from the city to patrol the border, an area with which they are unfamiliar.
Oh, nemmine, it’s from AP. Talk about presstitutes (whoever coined that I am forever in your debt!).
Oh Hi David Niewart, welcome back !
listen, I knew you were busy so I took the trouble to go over and visit that dear patriot Phyllis Schlafly – she asked me to bring these to you -
Aztlan Rising
Inbred
most of us know dear Phyl is as crazy and vicious as a shithouse rat, but many would consider her site mainstream
I rate Aztlan Rising three burnning crosses – excellent narrative and production values, but the Teutonic soundtrack a tad cloying
The other dweeb: Charles Kirkby – clicking through google references and there I was at ‘Stormfront’ and ‘White Aryan Resistance’
right there on ol Phyl’s site – imagine that
all snark aside David, I really don’t know how you have the psychic stamina for this work – I had five minutes and I’m mixing a double Mexican Martini
Ron at 23 — I doubt Fitz is commenting on anything. It’s likely a new filing in the case. Hopefully, I can pull something up tonight or tomorrow on PACER — or if someone else finds it, could they send it to me at ReddHedd at AOL dot com? Thanks!
Hypatia
“I wonder who wet-nurses and nannies the children of those minutemen”
It is the women who do all the work of the home where the man is the Master, and the women feed them and have their children enthusiastically. Kind of a Biblical thing, although there are women leaders, too. (learned on a link)
RWCole,
Don’t those poll numbers just about shake out to the theorized “Alan Keyes batshit crazy 27%”?
Sure looks that way to me.
-GSD
Thank you, David. Great post.
It’s truly saddening when the ugly-ass haters of our world adopt an issue and consequently muddy the waters by polluting the discourse with their vile and violent anger.
I’m discomforted by my otherwise progressive friends who condemn the undocumented in this country and proclaim that we have to do something about it. I point out to them that 150 years ago (or so), most folks in the US were undocumented other than through their church affiliation. Then I agree that the situation is not acceptable but condemning the “undocumented” people places them on the racist hate train along with the fine, upstanding white supremecists we all know and disdain.
That overlap in that Venn diagram has garnered a few faraway looks, I’ll tell ya.
Nothing on the DOJ site, Christy, at least not now.
I really do try to think outside the box, and was amused by a comment in an earlier thread that mentioned someone named Saul, who, to be brief, once convinced a group of women to make their men vote by threatening a fart-in. And I don’t even like bathroom humor, but it was pretty funny.
And then I read this story. So, I had to write this one. What do FDLers think?
And before that, trying to carry some of the water, too, I posted a comment in the thread on O’Hehir’s story on Gore at Salon that seemed so patronizing, pushing back on Salon’s defenses of its critics in this case, and I still got a red star. ;~)
Ron at 23 – I doubt Fitz is commenting on anything.
Yes, the AP story says there was a filing.
And you’re like the 10th person to call me Ron, for some weird reason.
Sorry, I meant to begin with “OT”
Fitzgerald may ’suggest’ it all he wants but I don’t believe for a second the White House would ever allow it.
However, given the wall of silence that has been Fitz recently, if he did say this, then it was probably done with a specific purpose in mind. Perhaps he’s trying to force someone’s hand?
Thank you for this wonderful and disturbing post, David!
Last thread I was trying to find David Shuster’s e-mail address, which I finally found at freerepublic. This was posted on the same thread:
“Dems are historically illiterate. The Republican Party has its roots in the Abolition movement, and the Abolition movement has its roots in the church.
The Dems, on the other hand, historically are the party of slavery, and the Ku Klux Klan, and Jim Crow racial repression, and continue to be the party of ethnic division, while the Republicans continue to be where they always were, the party of color-blind citizenship.”
As long as up is down and right is wrong and history can be rewritten by the smart manipulators of the right wing, the stupid ones will just keep “believing” and voting for them…
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo…..4050/posts
sounds like Fitzy in his filing today is trying to rattle some cages with openly hinting again Cheney might be involved in the Valerie Whatshername Kerfuffle…
OK, the ante is now upped … your turn, Irving!
Ooops — sorry Rob. In my case, it’s because I’m exhausted. *g* But that’s no excuse…
My husband is a naturalized citizen and we talk about the immigration debate alot. It bothers him a lot that most of the back and forth on the issue of amnesty focuses on letting the undocumented workers become guest workers. The part that is ignored is that a lot of these workers won’t have jobs if they become undocumented. You have to start at the root of the problem if you want to solve the immigration debate. You have to fine the companies using undocumented workers for cheap labor. It is also demeaning to these people that we should “use” them to fill jobs that “Americans won’t do.” My husband is an electrical engineer and feels that all people should be encouraged to advance their education. No group of people should be looked at as cheap labor. Both parties seem to be on board with the guest worker program in the Senate, thus both parties are demeaning these immigrants.
Anderson Cooper (CNN) is now giving us a riveting account of…Bill and Hillary’s marriage. No mention of Cheney-may-testify.
No problem. Must be because the N is right next to the B on the keyboard.
First question for Cheney: Were you drunk when you shot an old man in the face? :)
Here’s the Fitz Cheney link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12961060/
Note that in the 3rd paragraph it said “Libby shared the interests of his superior and was subject to his direction, the prosecutor wrote” (highlight is mine) so it reads as if there is some written filing we’ve not yet seen here.
Ed at 45 — If I had to guess — and this would just be my guess, since I haven’t seen the Fitz filing as yet — I’d say that Cheney’s statement regarding the annotated Wilson article was that he and Libby discussed it, either while the annotation was occurring or afterward. If so, that would be a direct rebuttal of Team Libby’s prior contention that Libby didn’t recall seeing the annotated article. And Fitz would only be calling Cheney because of Libby’s poor memory issue on that. So (a) it’s Irving’s fault for crying memory problems and (b) they can’t claim executive privilege for testimony on a fact basis where he’s only identifying his handwriting and going over a prior statement for the truth of the matter asserted, and where Cheney isn’t in legal jeopardy (at the moment). Which then forces Libby to (1) choose to now admit that he lied about his poor memory on this or (2) let Cheney testify.
Of course, this is total speculation, and I won’t know for sure until I can see the filing. Here’s hoping I can find it on PACER ot that some kind soul will send it to me and I’ll take a peek.
Karen M, your link doesn’t work. goes to a 404.
I am sure punaise can shed her light on this question …
Exactly why are these “minute”men so proud, so vocal of themselves ?
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..-Leak.html
NYTimes May 24, 2006
Cheney May Be Called in CIA Leak Case
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 10:13 p.m. ET
WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Dick Cheney could be called to testify in the perjury case against his former chief of staff, a special prosecutor said in a court filing Wednesday.
Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald suggested Cheney would be a logical government witness because he could authenticate notes he jotted on a July 6, 2003, New York Times opinion piece by a former U.S. ambassador critical of the Iraq war.
Fitzgerald said Cheney’s ‘’state of mind” is ”directly relevant” to whether I. Lewis ”Scooter” Libby, the vice president’s former top aide, lied to FBI agents and a federal grand jury about how he learned about CIA officer Valerie Plame’s identity and what he subsequently told reporters.
Libby ‘’shared the interests of his superior and was subject to his direction,” the prosecutor wrote. ”Therefore, the state of mind of the vice president as communicated to (the) defendant is directly relevant to the issue of whether (the) defendant knowingly made false statements to federal agents and the grand jury regarding when and how he learned about (Plame’s) employment and what he said to reporters regarding this issue.”
Whew, read a few too many Freeper quotes. Came away with the new great white hope. The ideological unity of racists whites and blacks over the issue of gays:
Freeper Quote Beleow:
“Keep it up, Schuster. Liberals equating butt-piracy with slavery is waking up a whole lot of blacks.”
How about them apples?
-GSD
First: I have been lurking because I don’t have the time to think of anything new to say after the first 75 sagacious comments.
Second: I love the guests. I have been reading Orcinus for years now. I send his stuff to all kinds of people concerned about hate crime.
I think your ability to host the very best of the blogosphere is a testimony to the level of respect you two have garnered so deservedly.
Hurrah for FDL and its friends!
Well, there really is an Aztlan group. They even have a web site for “press releases” and all that. Looks like they really don’t like Israel…very pro-palestinian, and in one article, as I recall, felt certain that the USA plans to invade Mexico! (good grief)
So…they exist, and they do have this agenda about how these westerns states are “theirs” and so forth. For me, the key is: numbers. I think, numerically speaking, they are tiny, tiny, tiny. And, I don’t think they have any popular support among all the pro-immigration folks.
Ghostman
The AP story updated to say this:
Seems maybe he is just saying a no comment.
Welcome, Alison, don’t lurk away, keep right on commenting along, we don’t bite.
GSD, I don’t speak freeper, what does it say?
Hey NSA ! – I’m gonna use the term ‘lone gunman ‘ strictly within the context of the conversation here – so just reset the trip wires ‘kay ?
watching that Aztlan Rising – you could just feel the heat and frustration they were trying to engender and it dawned on me – these are the very same anti social losers that produce a lone gunman – and you wouldn’t believe the vitriol reserved for the Chimpinator . . .just saying
Cheney would buckle under questioning. He’ll show up to testify like a mob boss, hooked up to a nasal cannula and carping about his poor health.
Cheney is a bad liar too. Fitzgerald will trip him up.
Fitzgerald better stay out of small planes and not go on any hunting trips with Deadeye Dick Cheney.
-GSD
An acquaintance of mine once made the statement that it is the nature of humans to be racist regardless of color, religious origin or ethnicity. Perhaps this precept follows from the Doctrine of Original Sin and how all men are evil. I don’t know. I asked for a bibliography and he had none. If, accepting the premise as being the case, and I do not, I responded then it must of necessity be the duty of all men and woman to minimize the inclination toward that proclivity. It is my opinion though that racism is learned, not innate. And it is a device employed by certain groups to achieve goals of economic, political, and social advantage. And of course we talk about all the white supremacist groups. That’s just overt racism. But the Bush crew, headed by Karl Rove has the wedge issue of using racial bias down to a science and an art (a nasty product originating with Nixon’s Southern Strategy and the Republican absorption of the Wallace Dixiecrats). Their brand of racisism is subtle, much more sophisticated, coded, covert and these days much aided by the ‘respectable’ religious-right. Their use of bias is far more dangerous. With the KKK, neo-Nazi’s, the Minutemen, etc. it’s up front and in your face. And I think, therefore much easier to combat.
Wow, that is some no-comment comment, isn’t it?
Cheney will doze off on the stand, should it come to that.
Ghostman: how long has the site been active?
I would not put astroturf past these wingnuts at all.
Question for Christy or any other lawyers out there -
I assume that if Rove is indicted than it may go to another judge rather than Walton. Also assuming that Rove does not have a better defense than Libby and he also tries to greymail his way out of jail, do Walton’s rulings on any of the greymail tactics of Team Libby have any judicial weight? I realize that they are both at trial level and not appeals court so they aren’t binding precedent, but do trial judges look to other trial judges’ handling of matters such as this?
Fitzy is saying it is indeed possible that Cheney may indeed be called as a witness. He carefully stated he hasn’t ruled it out despite what Irving may be claiming. It’s a clear shot at Cheney (so to speak…)
67, Mr. Pach….I seem to recall I buzzed thru it a week or so ago. They list stories, by date, going back into 2005. But I just don’t know how long it’s been around.
Ghostman
ghostman -
honey might it be possible the Aztlan site you saw is the work of provocateurs – in one of the videos I linked above – there’s a cutaway shot to some ‘arab types’ screaming “Intifada!” and Stevie Wonder can see they are plants
Alison @ 58 – welcome to delurkerville ! not being sagacious has never stopped many of us (okay me) but welcome !
OK, I agree, racism is taught and learned, and look at who Georgie learned from, ol’ “this is working out for them” Barbara. I would go further to say that one large part of the dismal failure in NOLA was directly due to racism and the casual thoughtlessness felt for poor blacks by this administration. If they had been CEO blacks it might have been a different story. I always thought it was interesting that Trent Lott wasn’t beating down the president’s door about Katrina, but he has the same attitude. He was willing to donate his house to the cause.
Falling asleep, have to tuck myself in.
great post by david, wish I could stay up for TRex, but I’ll have coffee with him in the am, along with all of you.
Sweet dreams.
zen
OT, maybe that Abramoff finger is back inside Hastert! ABC is pretty much sticking by their story:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thebl…..pdate.html
I am three hours drive from the original Minutemen and excapee from the Idaho skin head camps then you add the fact that I am the mother of two non-white adopted naturalized young adults, this issue is near and dear to me.
Here are a few articles on Chris Simcox one of the founders:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizo…..teman.html
http://arizona.indymedia.org/n…../41592.php
http://www.abc15.com/news/inve…..did=26456#
When you have old fat white men conplaining about how poorly they are being treated while patrolling the boarder to protect me because Simcox & Gilchrist are collecting who knows how much money. It has hit 105 and higher on the boarder now, you will not see these good old boys down there where at this time of the year. The exodus of snowbirds starts in April when temps hit 100.
Zennurse, thanks!
I was probably correcting a typo; it should be working now. Here it is again.
choochmac 1t 68 — it would likely go to another judge in the DC Circuit, but it could go to Walton. Most circuits rotate case assignment, but in some cases where evidentiary matters overlap, it will go to the same judge because the judge and his/her clerks don’t have to get up to speed on the same background information, so for judicial expediency purposes, they may assign any and all cases coming out of this to Walton.
If conspiracy charges are filed that encompass Libby and everyone else, where a superceding indictment is filed, then it will all most likely go to Walton.
But that’s not set in stone. If someone reading has practiced in the DC Circuit and knows how they’ve handled similar cases in the past (like related drug matter cases and so on), please chime in — sometimes there is a variance from circuit to circuit.
zennurse says:
May 24th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
I left you a reply at or near the end of the prior thread.
67, Mr. Pach, and 71, cbl: it’s called “La Voz de Aztlan”, and it’s at http://www.aztlan.net
I don’t know a thing about whether it’s legit, or how long it’s been around, or anything else about it. I just know they list a whole bunch of news stories there.
Ghostman
Christy- btw, is it known who the presiding judge is for the current GJ? IANAL so that lingo might be wrong. Prior speculation about Hogan’s restrictions bring this to mind.
Double comments when I refresh???
As a non-Latino native of “Aztlan”, I wouldn’t worry too much about a bunch of wingnut, camouflage wearing drag queens. They are vastly outnumbered.
Christy Hardin Smith at 77 –
Thanks. It’s a little bit comforting to know that they might assign a new indictment to him and won’t have to start from ground zero so to speak.
what is that site that you can use to look up who owns and registers urls?
Christy I am getting some really weird effects in comments. First when I submit, the post disapears then when I reopen the window it is there again. Then when I hit refresh, it posts my previous comment again. Now there is only one.
Ok, I know I am out of my normal time zone (in KY this week) but not seeing things yet!
Pachutec, one site is http://www.whois.net/
the Aztlan site is copyrighted in the year 2000…it also carries “Los Protocolos de los Sabios de Sion” which puts it out in wacky-wacky land (to put it charitably)
Fitzgerald looks to have enough evidence to show a lot more than prejury etc. It’s going to show to America what really happened with the Iraqi WMD bs.
The bit in the AP article that makes me laugh is where Libby says that Cheney just wanted to get the truth out. Even Colin Powell had stopped saying that the Niger documents were credible. What will Libby’s story be by the time this goes to trial?
Do you suppose Jr. understands the racist roots of the appartus? Don’t beat me up, but I think he probably doesn’t.
Hmmm. . . I have my doubts about the authenticity of that site. I’ll bet it’s a white supremecist fake.
Re: The new Fitz story.
This is news? That he MIGHT call Vice President #1 as a witness? Um, even the the dimmest of legal scholars could have told you that. Libby says he first heard about Plame from Tim Russert. Fitz says that Libby first heard about Plame from Dick Cheney. It isn’t rocket science. Frankly, it’d be even bigger news if Fitz was specifically NOT planning on calling Cheney.
I’m more curious as to what the filing was about. In any case, it continues to warm my heart the Fitz insists on referring to the Shooter as “the Vice President”, never “Cheney”.
David –
In spite of busy-ness at out house tonight, I just had to say thank you so much for this front page post — and for any future ones you may write for this site (and I hope there will be more).
I will poke around your website to see if I can find how it is you came upon your calling as a researcher of these racist and fascist obscenities, but whatever your original motivation, I am grateful for it, and admire your courage and fortitude in facing and sifting through these ugly examples of profound viciousness.
If there is one thing I will tolerate under NO circumstance, it’s racist language in my presence. How I managed to make it through my single years of attending “happy hours” at local watering holes without at least once having my tires slashed, I’ll never know. But the unstated assumption that simply because my skin reveals a so-called “caucasian” pigmentation type that somehow makes it “OK” to spout racist language in my presence is an insult that makes my blood boil, and engages my mouth in a furious reading of the riot act, even before I realize I’m doing so.
Here’s a question for you, should you have the time to read our comments and respond: why does there seem to be a psychosexual component to white racism?
On innumerable occasions, my refusal to “let it slide” when a white man (and in my own experience it’s almost always a man) makes vile racist remarks in my presence has led directly into an accusation on the part of the racist that I’m somehow “disloyal” to “my own (white) men.”
As though somehow I’m seen as a little sorority sister who is supposed to support the great fraternity of white testosterone, a “sister” who’s committed an unforgivable “betrayal.”
If you’ve written on this phenomenon already, please point me in the direction of your commentary on this.
This has bothered me for a long time, in the sense of wanting to tease out the (most likely subconscious) psychological structure responsible for this.
Ghostman (59),
La Voz de Aztlan is NOT legit! It is a racist, antisemitic publication created as if to be the wet dream of the white racists. For further particulars, let me just re-post this frfom Professor Rat on San Diego Indymedia, June 5, 2005:
La Voz Chicano NAZI’s
06.05.2005 00:33
This group ‘ La voz de Atzlan’ are real live Nazi’s themselves and I would ask that they be hidden whenever they try and post at ANY Indy outlet.
For evidence of the Nazism of this well funded fascist outfit simply search their site using the keywords ‘ protocol’s of the elders of zion ‘ and ‘ homosexuals ‘
I don’t know how this got through to the mainline as Indy may as well republish articles from ‘ Stormfront’ as any criminal hate speech from this Nazi bunch La voz de Ratz-lan losers.
professor – rat
e-mail:: pro2@optusnet.NOSPAM.com.au
La Voz de hate speech
06.05.2005 03:03
Ethnic Nationalism
Tiny Chicano group pushes racism and homophobia
“Our duty is to take back what is ours,” reads the Internet page, “even if it means carrying out total genocide.”
Standard fare, perhaps, for your garden-variety white supremacist Web sites. But there’s a twist.
The sentiment comes this time not from any neo-Nazi or Klan page, but from the message board of La Voz de Aztlan, the racist and anti-Semitic Web magazine of a tiny group of extremist Chicanos in Los Angeles.
“Aztlan” is the mythical Aztec homeland that supposedly existed in Mexico and the southwestern United States before the Spanish conquest of 1519. And though La Voz’s members number at most a dozen, they hope to take the entire territory back.
Adopting pseudonyms like Tezcatlipoca and Quetzalcoatl, they have even established a “provisional government,” apparently anticipating chaos after the coming revolution.
La Voz de Aztlan’s articles go way, way past mainstream Latino concerns, railing against “Nazi” Jews, “demonic” lesbians and “the Jew/Gay Democratic Party.” The site approvingly quotes ancient Aztec law, requiring disembowelment for homosexuals.
It blames Jews for political problems in Los Angeles and even provides the entire text of the infamous anti-Semitic forgery, Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Worse, though, are the message boards.
“Kill any Raza [Latina] woman, “Who mixes her blood with either white trash or … nigger scum.”
SPLC
87….sabios de SION?? Is that davinci code stuff? Sion? I might be confusing that word with another.
Ghostman
Thank-yous to David Neiwart. Wonderful, well written and well researched.
Multiple OTs
Any Kobe updates?
Scarecrow – your 116 below is a wonderful post!
zen-my horses are very ticked at me bc they had to stay in their stalls while I was travelling (I don’t trust many people to do turnout with so many)but they are mostly well and wonderful and making the world a better place for their presence *g* Even in all the rest of the mess, I can’t help but think about Barbaro. If you haven’t been through a bad leg injury, it’s hard to explain everything that the owners, vets and horse have in front of them, even if all goes perfectly, and how seldom the word “horse” is ever combined with the phrase “things went perfectly”. D*mn he is a gorgeous animal.
rwcole – you know you’re one of my favorites even when you are telling me off for not being as pragmatic as I should be, and I’m not the hottest fan around for Fitzgerald, but the “never does anything” is a bit harsh. I still can’t believe he walked the NIE disclosure right back to GWB in print and in public – that was more than I ever expected.
Who else has put anything directly in Bush’s lap? Add on the Cheney info – again, who else puts any candy wrappers in the VP’s pockets? I mean – he shoots a man in the face and has that guy go on TV and apologize to Cheney, but Fitzgerald pretty much does the equivalent of reading and publishing Cheney’s dear diary draft and is still standing (so far).
There are reasons why I don’t see a hero, but if everything went belly up tomorrow on all the cases, he’s pulled more rabbits out of the hat than I would have ever expected.
I’m not going to buy tickets to all the shows, but this one deserves an ovation, IMO.
I’m one of those people who thinks racism is pretty much universal. I think it derives from tribalism, and skin colour is one of the ways you tell “us” from “them”. The racism of the powerful is much more visible than the racism of the powerless – the powerful are in a position to take actions that express and institutionalize their attitudes – and on this continent that power is largely in the hands of white males of western european ancestry. But I have heard racist attitudes expressed by people from varied backgrounds – some of which really surprised me at first. I’d give examples, but it might be a little inflamatory.
Looks like commenter Jeff at The Next Hurrah as a copy of Fitz’s filing:
I love this quote from the latest Fitz article …
“Contrary to defendant’s assertion, the government has not represented that it does not intend to call the vice president as a witness at trial,” Fitzgerald wrote. “To the best of government’s counsel’s recollection, the government has not commented on whether it intends to call the vice president as a witness.
So step off, BITCH.”
Okay, I added the last part.
Mary at 95 — I spoke to Jane a few hours ago and Kobe was holding his own. But haven’t heard from her for awhile — Kobe being the priority and all, I wasn’t expecting to — but I promise I’ll update everyone as soon as I know anything.
Oh, and I have a copy of the Fitz filing and attachments as well — so no one needs to scramble through PACER to find them. Jeralyn was nice enough to send me a copy when she pulled some for herself. :)
btw, before everyone’s hopes get sky high, I’m beat — doing a first read through of the docs this evening, and will do analysis for everyone in the morning — otherwise you’ll just get gibberish. But I promise to get something up tomorrow.
Christy –
Take your time. I’m sure it will be worth it :)
new thread
If Fitz and company were working on a filing for today, it explains why the GJ didn’t meet. Here’s hoping for Friday! Or on second thought maybe not. Not sure if I want it coming out right before a holiday weekend. Might not get the coverage it deserves.
Oh, forgot to say — if ANYONE ELSE besides David has commentary on the phenomenon I tried to describe in #92, I’d be happy to hear it.
And Hilde, if you’re still here, I want to thank you for your kind remarks and sentiments in prior threads today! And thanks to others — wish I had time to go back and list each person individually for thanks, but can’t right now. Please know that the support/prayers/good wishes of FDL means an awful lot to both me and Mr. K8.
And to Jane and Kobe and Jane’s Mom — our prayers are with y’all tonight!
I can vouch for what VG mentioned in #31, that it’s not just white racists who are getting torqued out there. This border thing is stirring up a lot of wounds in this society, and not just racial/ethnic, but also sectarian.
I happened to be in downtown San Antonio the day of the immigrant boycott & march. As I drove by one area, I saw African-Americans protesting the marchers, one of them a woman with a sign telling the marchers to, in essence, go back where they came from.
I’ve had Hispanics say to me, openly, with other Hispanics standing there and nodding, that they didn’t like Oriental people because they were “oily” and “sneaky.”
Not sure who the Asian-Americans are hating on. I see various nationalities over at my very favorite Asian market, buying their yummies without killing each other, and I haven’t heard of any of them gunning each other down over nail parlor turf wars (the Asian-Americans OWN the manicure business here in S.A.).
And of course you have the whites hating on all of them. And let’s not forget Muslims and Jews and atheists.
This is a huge can of worms that needs to be confronted, but not this way. This is the way that only leads to ugly.
P.S. Is that the sound of Crashcart being thrown under the bus?
Mrs. K8:
It’s tied into how the white men got so bent out of shape about black men touching their women (Lynch ‘em Lyle!), but, oh, honey, did those same white boys love the brown sugar.
You’re not a PERSON, you know. You’re PROPERTY. Just like that young buck. Or how he USED to be. Back in those good old days.
This is a really powerful component of the white male’s fury about the black man.
TRex at bat in new thread
LJ –
Years ago I was doing some research in a Delaware County (PA) library, where I came upon very old newspapers — turn of the 19th to 20th century and thereabouts.
The newspapers contained articles about the vicious, dirty, criminal, funny-food-eating, lazy, good-for-nothing, white-woman-attacking etc. Hungarians!!! — who had just recently arrived from the Old World and who were willing to take back-breaking factory jobs for even LESS money than others before them. I was stunned about the rabid anti-Hungarian sentiment that I’d never known to have existed before.
The guys in the catbird seat have been manipulating, for what seems like forever, the fears and jealousies and resentments of those who are low on the totem pole. Keeps ‘em battling each other rather than casting their eyes upward to the REAL villains at the top of the food chain.
On that psychosexual theme, I blogged about an incident that actually happened in an East Texas village, way back in the late 40s/early 50s that my mother related to me. It is as heartbreaking as it is ugly.
As long as you folks on the extreme left cry racist at anyone who is concearned about the large influx of illegal immigrants you will be giving the Republicans a chance to cling to life in ‘06. Plenty of regular people who have no racist motivations, but who are feeling an economic crunch (partly due to added low wage workers) will expect some kind of reasoned debate about the issue. If you insist on smearing them as some kind of bigot they will surely not vote for your “team” in November.
You call yourselves a roots movement but the way you’re addressing this issue is classic wedge politics 101)it’s a little rovian even!). Turn everything into an all or nothing scenario where one side has all the right(enlightened) answers and anyone who disagrees must be a KKK member(probably from “the South”). Great idea, real rootsy and original.
Heres a little political tip. When engaging in smear politics it’s probably not a very good idea to smear the people you’re going to be asking to vote for you. Yes this even applies to a “roots” movement on the interwebs.
Oh yeah, Mrs. K–Even the drug wars play into that don’t touch our white women theme. Opium? It will make your women will fall under the influence of evil Asian men!
Cocaine?
It will make your women fall under the influence of evil Latin (and BLACK) men!
Heroin?
Black men!
LSD will make your daughters will fall under the spell of Godless Commies!
And so on.
It’s really quite fascinating to behold.
Lou Dobbs, new candidate for:
‘The Dumbest Man in the World’
For this ‘news’ report he wins hands down.
LJ –
Thanks for that link. The whole psychosexual aspect of this thing goes really deep, and I’d like to understand it better.
My instinct is that it would not be so effective a motivator for racist ugliness if there weren’t a VERY strong component of insecurity and inadequacy. I think it’s not JUST that women are seen as property, although that’s an important part of it, of course — it’s got to have something to do with a deep primal fear that a man’s not a “real man,” sexually OR socio-economically.
And then this segues right into homophobia quite neatly, don’t you think?
Now I’m off to finish reading your blog post…
Unfortunately, there are issues regarding migration, citizenship, economics and racial/ethnic identity across the globe. Just saw a sad sight the other day of an open wooden boat (about 30 feet long) packed with people from North Africa who were interdicted trying to make it to Spain. Throughout the Middle East, one finds guest workers (many from the Phillipines and Indonesia)who, while working legally, are relegated to non career tasks such as housekeepers and servants in the petro states. There is also an ethnic and economic impetus to control and supress the Uyghurs, including prevention their migration to more rapidly developing areas of China in pursuit of employment.
One way to bring out the “us” and “them” is create a situation where there is not enough bread for “both.”
If we want this plant to carry 6 billion people without most of them living in misery, there has to be some serious adjustment of the current situation (self-sufficiency for the have nots, and have less for the haves). I do not see this happening in an orderly and voluntary fashion.
D. Mason:
You’re clearly out of your league.
How about stopping American companies from outsourcing jobs to feed their bottom line? Having tax subsidies to send our jobs away?
How about really punishing companies and individuals who hire illegal aliens? Or are you ready to pay $1.25 for a grape? No? Didn’t think so.
Where’s your outrage about all the people coming into this country from our water (We kinda have a lot of coastline, you know), and from, oh CANADA. But that’s different because they’re not Mexicans, you know, BROWN people?
How about having a foreign policy that actively engages with Mexico to get with this century in regards to its economy? Oh, and while you’re at it, stop letting American companies go over there just because they find it “inconvenient” not to be able to poison our water and air here, and don’t want to pay even the wages they would illegals over here, hm?
You come on here and attack the people here, rather than addressing an issue that is far more complicated than “build a wall, send ‘em back). It is NOT that easy. I can assure you that anyone who attempts to put up a wall down there is in for a very, very rude surprise.
Spew your hate somewhere else. You’re not fooling us.
I couldn’t have made my point as well with 10,000 words as you did with 9. Congrats.
Ghostman (94),
Calm down, old boy… “Sion” is just Spanish for “Zion.” The French word is also the same, “Sion.”
By the way, the whole “Priory of Zion” thing is a hoax.
http://www.alpheus.org/html/ar…..print.html
“Los Protocolos de los Sabios de Sion” is Spanish for “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.” — also a hoax, an older and better known one .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…..rs_of_Zion
There is no obvious connection between the two. There may be an unobvious connection, in that both are carefully nurtured pieces of disinformation designed to achieve political ends.
D. Mason is a prolific blogger……..
Wow. You can count.
And you didn’t address ONE single issue I raised.
Congratulations. You must be feeling a real draft back there with what you’re exposing.
Yeah, and he hasn’t put out an album since he was in Traffic…
Please don’t feed the…I don’t even have to finish this, do I?
That’s because your post was completely unrelated to my post except for the part where you backed up everything I said by calling me a racist. Which I did address.
If I made a post asking you about the price of eggs in China should you be required to answer just because I asked? No. So why do you expect me to answer your questions from a post that had no relation to what I was saying in the slightest way?
I made a very simple point about the nature of political debate i.e. you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar and you expect me to start spitting out policy as if I were a congressman.
How about I make this easy. If you address my point which is: You shouldn’t call someone a racist then ask them for their vote, especially without even considering what it is they have to say, then I will happily address every point you brought up. Until then let’s just say we’re even on failing to address one anothers unsolicited points.
Oh yeah, there you go, I’m a troll because I disagree. I defy you to find a single example of me “spewing hate” in the post in question #111.
No, you ALSO said this:
plenty of regular people who have no racist motivations, but who are feeling an economic crunch (partly due to added low wage workers) will expect some kind of reasoned debate about the issue.
And I raised several factors that play into how to address that reasonably.
In addition, you an say that you don’t have racist motivations, but you made a remark about “low-wage” workers, as if we don’t know who you mean.
Mrs. K8,
I’d love to talk to you some more about that psychosexual component, but I gotta turn on. Later, okay?
Hope your dog is feeling a bit better.
Turn IN. ARGH! How’s that for a Freudian slip?
So you did, but honestly, that has not much to do with the point I was making about how a political movement should talk to people who have legitimate concearns. You seem to be missing the point I was trying to make, which had nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with how certain parts of the democratic movement are framing the debate. In a self-destructive way. My point, once again: Why would someone vote for your “team” after you called them a racist? If you address that I will give you my views on everything you brought up, promise, but not till then. Afterall, I raised my issue first.
I meant low-wage workers(I dunno what low-wage means in your super secret liberal dictionary). It’s a fact that most of them are hispanic or asian, so yeah, minorities are the low-wage workers in question. Unless you are disputing that fact then I must suppose that you have declared the fact itself racist. I wasn’t aware that facts could actually be racist but I guess you learn something new every day. Still, I can hardly see how my stating a simple, but ugly fact in the most polite possible way makes ME a racist even if the fact itself is somehow racist.
Anon (128),
As explained above (see 94), La Nacion de Aztlan is a bullshit fringe group that makes lots of noise, but doesn’t represent anybody.
To me it has the footprint of an agent provocateur organization, the main purpose of which is to provoke reactions like yours.
Anon (128),
As explained above (see 94), La Nacion de Aztlan is a bullshit fringe group that makes lots of noise, but doesn’t represent anybody.
To me it has the footprint of an agent provocateur organization, the main purpose of which is to provoke reactions like yours.
If you want to see what I mean by it being an “agent provocateur,” check this out:
http://www.halturnershow.com/M…..deUSA.html
Like miniscule white-supremacist groups that truly represent less than a dozen people but get used to demonize a whole segment of middle-class Americans who are legitimately concearned about large waves of illegal-immigrants? Yeah I thought it was something like that.
As long as extremist on the left claim that all people who express concearns about illegal-immigration are bigots or worse, extremists on the right will portray all illegal-immigrants as members of aztlan or MS-13. Welcome to the par-tay. Same shit on both sides of the spectrum, nothing new under the sun.
Want to be a roots movement? Do something different.
How man CNN anchors are picking up information from La Voz de Aztlan and citing it as credible information, exactly?
The problem isn’t the miniscule groups, per se. They’ve been with us forever.
The problem is mainstream conservatives picking up their propaganda and running with it.
When I first saw ‘ La Voz’ on Indymedia in 2001 I thought, ‘ cool’ , you know, I read Hunter S Thomson and I know who the ‘ Samoan attorney’ is.
But then they started to spew the anti-semitic and anti-gay hate speech and incitements to violence and I got annoyed.
Along with another free radical, Paul X, we tracked them down with whois and published their addy online. For my pains I got a bounty placed on my arrest for ‘ cyberterroism’ for $25,000 USD. That was in May 2001 at Melbourne IMC and in June I was actually arrested but thats another story.
I suspect a lot of the anti-semitism of this particular group comes out of Catholicism. Sear ‘ Abelard’. The anti-gay stuff could come from the bible, sear ‘ Hobrad’ even if it quotes from ethnographic ‘ studies’.
So it would seem that there are a handful of Chicano Nazi’s even if the worst fascists remain the whites due to their wealth and power.
Also despite the repugnant ideology of lunar rightwing fascism some reasonably neutral ideas sometimes bubble out from the swamp.
‘ Leaderless resistance’ for example.
‘ Tactical voting’ is another idea the local Pauline Hansonite racists came up with here.
The last idea these losers proffered before going extinct was government by net referendum’s.
Tempting as it is to ignore the fascist international they can sometimes form a right ‘ horn’ with which to gore the ‘centrist’ monster.
That doesn’t mean we form a ‘ popular front’ with them EVER! Just that we can act together in a loosely networked way to bring down the Vichy-Goopster Juggernaut.
Thats what happened recently in Europe – a proposal to form a central ‘ pentagon’ was shot down by a loose Left/right referenda.
Finally I would ask all red blooded Americans , ‘ Do you know where your gun records are?’
And
‘ Had enough?’
I know this is late, D. Mason, but here goes:
You have now revealed plenty with that remark about my “super-secret liberal dictionary.”
Here is my take:
I’m not coddling anyone who is essentially telling me that, if I get a bit feisty about the racism angle, they’ll go running into the arms of the Republicans in response. If you truly care about all those low-wage workers, then you would surely understand that the Republicans never have and never will. They don’t care about them, or you. They care about money. Period. But if your petticoats get in a wad because some people on the right side of workers in America get a bit snarky about the racism issue that is indeed a part of this (you don’t see Minutement taking guns to the Canadian border, do you?), enough that you will vote against the people your tormentors endorse who will find a reasonable solution that causes the least harm to both the workers and the desperate people who come here, then you are saying a lot about how you’re willing to sell out the workers of America you claim to care so much about–all over your delicate sensibilities.
Politics is an ugly game. You sometimes have to endure people who aren’t always pleasant, 24/7 about issues they care about. Sometimes, they are saying the ugly truth that needs to get out there in the debate, as David does. As I do. Racism IS a part of the immigration debate, and we have just as much right to bring attention to that as the squishy middle has to ignore it. That is reality. Accept it or not. I don’t care.
I do not think of myself as a right wing skinhead but I do think the Aztlan uses Rovean thinking.
So how did the Spanish Empire acquire the territory except by military conquest. Why is this conquest legit and the US conquest wrong?
Why should Mexico have automatically aquired this area? It was not populated by tribes with no commonality with the Aztec and preAztec cultures.
The Spanish treatment of the first nations there was not partucularly enlightened. And the settlement of Spanish/Mexicans in that area was extremely sparce.
As far as Amnesty goes, there are many people legally waiting for legal immigration. It is they who are being given the bird by an amnesty. Chinese illegals upwards of 20K to get here and some get shipped in containers. I am sure that they would willingly pay the $5K we are asking for.
Maybe the fairest way is to sell greencards on the open market.
Give me your tired and your poor your gardeners and nannies yearning to get in free…
My only concern with tens of millions of Mexicans moving north is the reason why they are moving, overpopulation in Mexico. The move only leads to overpopulation in the US. It doesn’t solve the problem, it merely shifts the location.
When 80% of the population of Mexico says they would move here if it was legal there is one heck of a problem that’s not being properly adressed, by either Dems or Republicans. And if it doesn’t get properly addressed it will just get worse.
The members of the GOP/Media Complex are running scared. They know that Bush’s Sadim Touch is killing them, even among their racist base, so they have to drop everything to pump up the racism.
Not as much as you revealed by accusing me of racism for politely stating an unfortunate fact.
My point, as you should have been able to figure out by now, was neither about coddling anyone nor was it about them running to republicans. My point, as I’ve tried earnestly to communicate is that democrats should not use racism to flog anyone who is concearned about illegal immigration. It’s a poison pill that Rove sent to your party and some of you seem to be gulping it down like candy.
A HUGE portion of non-racist America has legitimate and serious concearns about 3 million illegal immigrants coming across our border each year. Why can’t you see that it is not racism? Are their racist among those concearned? Sure they are. Just like there are some aztlan believers among the immigrant movement. Like it or not groups like that will ride legitimate issues whenever possible. But lemme guess. Claiming that there might be a handful of Mexican immigranst who actually believe the shit aztlan organisations are spewing is racist of ME huh?
Anyway, back to my point, you can continue to paint average Americans, who are willing to recognise this problem, as racist and you can watch a really shitty political party get elected for simply being willing to not call them bigots(which they aren’t so it’s YOUR SIDE being dishonest this time). Won’t that make you all feel pretty fucking special in November? To lose an election – to Republicans – by being dishonest.
I don’t. I care about America and Americans. Right now we have a bunch of lunatics in the White house driving the country straight to shit town. I would like for the Democrats to stop the bleeding and I would appreciate it if the fringe of the Democrat party didn’t alienate huge chunks of the voting public by dishonestly calling them racists.
First off, the worry is not that they will vote for Republicans. Republicans have a large(bigger than yours) block of voters who WILL vote for them. The worry is that the millions of people who can’t stand the Republicans, the ones the dems are counting on to put them into office, but who aren’t politically savvy, will be DISCOURAGED from voting by being called bigots by dems. And for the record I don’t know of minutement using guns on any border. They have been a strictly non-voilent group as far as I can tell. What they do is look at illegals crossing and call the border patrol, how hateful of them.
That’s not what you are promoting with your racism spewing. Your ilk are not looking for a reasonable solution because to you the only reasonable solution is to say that illegals are no problemo. Evidenced by your accusations of racism levied against anyone who even faintly suggests that it IS a problem.
The Democrats haven’t given a shit about American workers since they sold out the labor unions and they get no credit from me for offering no solution and calling it a solution. Don’t misunderstand me as saying the republicans do care. They don’t. Neither side does, maybe that’s the fucking problem, what do you think?
That’s all I’ve been trying to say to you this whole time but maybe you’re too thick to realise it’s a two way street.
Believe it or not, if you tolerated the average guys concearns without screaming bigot you might be able to find some common ground. Most people don’t want to shoot mexicans at the border, they just want to stop the flood.
Now you answered my issue poorly but you did answer it so I will do as I promised and answer your earlier post, This is already long so I will try to be brief.
Great Idea! My suggestion, on this very site a few days ago, was $1,000 and 1 day in jail per day per illegal that any company owner employed. If a small business accidentally employed 1 or 2 illegals for a few days and got caught it’s not crippling, but if a company makes it a practice they are as good as fucked.
Companies, who have means to verify their legality yes, I say punish em. Individuals who can’t possibly know if they’re legal or illegal shouldn’t be punished.
As for your $1.25 grape, thats horse shit and you know it. Illegals represent a small %(around 15% last i read something about it) of workers in the agriculture industry , the rest are Americans who won’t take those kinds of jobs. The cost is still low despite the industry mostly paying legal wages to Americans so try again. Not to mention that such a large amount of our fruit is imported from countries who legally use low-wage workers. So like I said, your $1.25 grapes are a lie just like other peoples $3.00 lettuce. It’s a straw man which is easily torn down, because companies who abuse illegal labor do not pass those savings along to the consumer. They charge us as if they were paying full price and pocket the difference and if you think any different you are nieve.
I have no outrage about this, my only outrage is at being called a racist for being concearned about this very real issue. I believe we should work on the biggest part of the problem first(Mexican border) then move on to the next biggest, and most offensive part(chinese people being shipped in frieght containers through our ports), then, if it’s still a problem address the Canadian border which is a very minor source of illegal immigration.
I don’t consider it to be Americas place to try to force other countries to have an acceptable (to us) foriegn policy. It’s none of our business in Iraq and it’s none of our business in Mexico. Certainly I would encourage them to raise themselves up in living standards, and get a control on their population growth. However, to either force them or to facilitate it with American tax money is wrong in my eyes.
You got it wrong, I came here and was attacked, as a racist, because I am concearned about illegal-immigration. And perhaps a wall won’t help, infact I would say it probably won’t, but it will still help more than putting your fingers in your ears and shouting “la-la-la there is no problem la-la-la”.
A quote so beautiful I must rest on it twice. Thanks again for proving my point.
Well LJ/aquaria I replied to you, and the first half got moderated. The second half didn’t so you will have to read it out of order if you read it atall.
“From July to December 2005, a six-month period, University Medical Center in Tucson treated 681 foreign nationals at a cost of $6.9 million dollars, according to a study by the University of Texas at El Paso. Hospitals in Pima County absorbed $76 million for treating illegal immigrants in the year 2000.”
–KOLD News 13, ‘Horse Trailer Carrying Dozens Of Illegal Immigrants Crashes’, 30 March 2006
Automatically equating being anti-illegal immigration with being a racist makes just as much sense as saying that being against the Iraq War means one is anti-American and unpatriotic. Resorting to such tactics is unwise and unfair, and intended to alienate and label rather than support reasoned discourse. We need less heat and more light.
Anon –
I’ve discussed the MEChA claims numerous times, most notably here and here. There is no evidence whatsoever that their talk of “Aztlan” reflects an intent to “invade” the United States. What it reflects is a belief that they have a historical right to be here, and moreover, that they intend to fully enfranchise themselves politically — as Americans.
What you’re eliding, moreover, is that the obsession with “Aztlan” — which, as far as Latinos are concerned, mostly appears in a few relatively obscure ’60s-era documents and among a fringe hate group (La Voz de Aztlan) — has previously been the purview almost solely of white supremacists: American Patrol, VDare, American Renaissance, the National Alliance, the CofCC, the Barnes Review. That’s who draws up these maps, and touts the claims of an “invasion” incessantly.
My wording was probably imprecise, though: I should have said “racist hate groups” instead of “white supremacist groups” and would have been perfectly accurate.
Right. And Herr Hitler simply thought he had a right to Austria, Poland, and Checheslovakia and wanted to fully enfranchise its German population.
On the contrary, you’ll find an Aztlan map as an emblem at this MEChA website: http://www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/utepmecha.html. Most MEChA sites use the term “Aztlan” and many link to copies of “El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan.” And these MEChA chapters are not fringe groups. They were central to the organization of the recent pro-immigration rallies of which the antiracism community is so proud. I find that baffling.
Only if you are willing to include MEChA in that category.