According to the NYDailyNews, two high ranking CIA officers will be testifying against Scooter Libby at trial. Both will testify that Libby spoke with them about Valerie Plame Wilson, her role in the agency, and other matters pertaining to the CIA leak case.
The U.S. alleges he learned about Plame from one of the CIA officials when he went after dirt on her husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Wilson shattered a pillar of President Bush’s rationale for war – that Iraq was seeking to build a nuclear weapon.
Both CIA officials – including a top architect of the 2003 Iraq invasion – discussed Plame with Libby a month before columnist Robert Novak blew her cover in July 2003, prosecutors charge.
Libby has said journalists told him about Plame – not Cheney or the six witnesses named so far by prosecutors.
Until recently, the CIA officials’ identities were kept secret by special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, who did not name them in Libby’s October indictment.
But subsequent documents allege Libby asked top CIA official Robert Grenier on June 11 why the agency sent Wilson to Niger to see if Iraq tried to buy uranium. Grenier replied that Plame was an agent and "believed responsible" for arranging her husband’s trip.
The other official was Craig Schmall, a CIA briefer whom Libby complained to about the Wilson trip on June 14, court files allege. (emphasis mine)
Interesting stuff. The article says that reporters learned this from "subsequent documents" and I’ll be attempting to get my hands on those today as I get time to do so. I didn’t seen any new filings with this information in it yesterday, but that doesn’t rule out a late night filing yesterday evening or something today — or that I’ve missed something along the line. (If any reader does have them already and could send them along, I’d love it. ReddHedd AT aol DOT com)
This pretty much puts a damper on the whole "I heard it from a reporter" hogwash — let alone the "my memory has a lot of holes in it, because this was not an issue that was important to me" malarky. One wonders what the next morphing of the Libby defense will be — because two separate witnesses with whom Libby spoke about putting the screws to Joe Wilson, including finding out dirt on Wilson’s wife, makes the whole "tangential issue" argument look silly and disengenuous. Two words that you never want associated with your defense tactics in front of a jury, I can tell you that, especially when imprisonment is on the line.
Hmmm…"not Cheney or the six witnesses named so far." Now that’s a teaser line if I ever heard one. Anyone else hoping there are more shoes to drop?
I covered issues surrounding high level clearance and the SF-312 a while ago, but I wanted to ask this again: what was this Administration, and in particular Scooter Libby and Karl Rove and who knows who else, doing playing so fast and loose with secrets for which they had no valid "need to know" basis? And why is it again that Karl Rove maintains his job with a full security clearance to this day? Any other person on the planet would have already had it yanked months and months ago.
Now there’s a question for Tony Snow today. Any takers?
(Hat tip to readers Frank Probst and al-Scooter for the heads up on the article.)
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Fitztime!
Give it to me Fitzy!
rootz!
FitzMate! in one move…
ROOTS! Murtha! Mora! Colbert!
The Refresh Comments feature is an act of genius. Thank you!
So, do we know the names of the 6 witnesses?
Does “witness” mean they already testified before the GJ?
What are their future obligations to the court?
Man, oh man,
Oh Manischewitz.
I hope Scooty-boy thinks he looks good in orange. I think it’s a little interesting that Fitz didn’t save these guys as rebuttal witnesses. Or is the prosecution required to disclose its rebuttal witnesses, Redd?
BC
OT – How about formatting these posts and comments so they are justified to the left margin? The center-justification really looks odd, and it’s hard to follow the paragraphs/indentations/etc.
Props to the tech gurus!
Not precisely on-topic, but with Abu Al Gonzales saying he will prosecute reporters who print classified info, when can we expect the indictment of Novakula? Just asking….
Peterr -
Try refreshing. I saw similar to what you saw but it corrected itself.
I think the tech team is onto something now.
The highlighted banner on your own comments is pretty cool, too.
Bravo.
T-
Peterr — mine is showing as left justified. What browser are you using?
Novakula will be indicted on the 12th of Never, treyfur.
Those were authorized leaks, after all.
BC
Oh, wait. You had sarcasm mode engaged…
Never mind.
BC
Ouch!
Scooter’s gonna have to look for a new rock to crawl under. Unfortunately, it’s a rock that shoots old men in the face.
ooops — Tom — Chicago. Sorry about that — went in to delete your repeat comment posting and accidently bumped them both out. (Man, I clearly need mroe coffee.)
I’m using Firefox :: the article and comments are all center-justified…also the background color is off too…
Christy and tech team,
I am running Firefox on the Mac. Formatting is a goner – comments are all centered, no rules, no highlights, nothing. Background images don’t show either.
I would guess the css isn’t being called properly for my OS and browser. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, given the small percentage of folks running same.
Just an FYI.
The Refresh Comments is great though – thanks for adding that feature!
if I had more time, I’d run through the code to narrow down things for you but I must return to the fires of work now,
Hilde
wow. amazing how much ammo fitz has.
doubly amazing that none of this has leaked over the years.
no wonder team irving has been flipping out over discovery.
why wasnt he charged w/ the underlying crimes yet? seems like much more evidence to motive than seems necessary.
why does rove still have clearance? a job?
bushco is pathetic.
Have you guys seen this piece from Daily Kos about the Rove indictment….
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/21/184052/881
Did Gonzales Kill Fitz’s Rove Indictments?
by JiggyFlunknut
Sun May 21, 2006 at 03:40:51 PM PDT
Last Friday, Judge Reggie Walton, the presiding judge in the Libby trial, deliberated over a case titled “SEALED v. SEALED.” There is growing speculation that sealed v. sealed is Fitzgerald v. Gonzales’ Deputy, Paul McNulty (Fitzgerald’s direct superior).
* JiggyFlunknut’s diary :: ::
*
The Wayne Madsen Report and the Chris Matthews Show have both floated the theory that Fitzgerald had secured indictments against Rove, but Gonzales –via McNulty– came in at the last second and used his power as Fitzgerald’s superior to kill the indictments.
IF, this theory is true, Fitzgerald would have likely challenged McNulty’s decision in court, pointing to an earlier administrative directive from then acting Attorney General James Comey that gave Fitzerald the “authority of the Attorney General.” Comey is long gone, however, and was replaced by McNulty. The question then becomes what, if any, value does Comey’s administrative directive have today.
One unfortunate realty of this scenario is that if the judge sides with McNulty, we will never know what really happened, because it will remained sealed. Which, is one explanation about why Rove is acting so smug these days and why the White House has not pulled back his public schedule.
OK, new weirdness. No banner across the top, all comments centered and in tiny type on a field of grey. Where the hell am I????
marily, are you here?
FS — yes, we’ve seen it. No, I haven’t had a chance to do the research I need to comment adequately. Anything is possible — but politically, you’d have to be brain dead to think you could pull something this asanine.
There have got to be some new court docs out there. Or perhaps Pincus was in court during this session? In any case, I posted this article by him here yesterday and it seemed to pass unnoticed. Maybe you all had seen it and I just missed that. In any case:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01024.html
I’m really anxious for the ladies of the lake to get their hands on these docs what with all the new stories coming out.
OT AND EPU’D but given the mans service to our country……
RIP Lloyd Bentson. %u201CSenator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy%u201D.
Best smackdown,ever.
Joe Cannon posts: Did we invade to steal oil? Were we a cudgel wielded by the Israelis? Were both factors involved? If you’re inclined to dismiss oil as the chief motive for the crime, read this.
The article at AlterNet by Joshua Holland is clear and cogent. It’s a reminder that the OVP is just a portal into a whole ‘nother world where the real decisions are made and whole worlds of commerce and finance are planned.
–
I’m running Safari on Mac OS X. Same issues as Hilde.
Christy @ 12 = Mozilla Firefox, and like mommybrain @ 20, it’s all small type and a gray background
WTF?! %u201C should be quotation marks.
Yes — I agree, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they are trying it.
comments look fine in Firefox on Windows XP. my recently posted comment has a lavender background (assumed to be temporary) instead of the usual gray. love the ‘refresh comments’ button.
Goopers hoping to ride “same sex marriage” to victory in the fall. New Gallup poll shows slow but steady decline in numbers of americans on the gooper side of that issue:
Do you think marriages between homosexuals should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?” N=515, MoE 5 (Form A)
.
Should
Be Valid Should
Not Be Unsure
% % %
5/8-11/06 39 58 4
8/22-25/05 37 59 4
4/29 – 5/1/05 39 56 5
3/18-20/05 28 68 4
7/19-21/04 32 62 6
3/5-7/04 33 61 6
2/16-17/04 32 64 4
2/6-8/04 36 59 5
12/03 31 65 4
10/03 35 61 4
6/03 39 55 6
1/00 34 62 4
2/99 35 62 3
3/96 27 68 5
Bustednuckles:
Thanks for the Bentsen.
For the record, site looks OK using Camino 1.01 under Mac OS X 10.2.8
cool! that alarming ERROR message on no new comments is gone…
Y A Y ! ! ! ! !
us Skinnerean pigeons now have a new button to peck every 15 seconds . . .
I seriously doubt if Scooter Libby, Karl Rove or anyone else in the president’s inner circle is especially worried about Fitzgerald at this point. They know that, ultimately, they will never be held accountable. What Nixon started and Iran-Contra nurtured, Bush has molded into shiney monolith of power.
Libby and Rove know full well that they have the support of a president who is above the law. And when you are not constrained by the law, all maner of miraculous works are possible.
In Glen Greenwald’s book, he recounts a portion of David Frost’s famous interview with Richard Nixon where Nixon suggests that anything the president does is, by definition, legal. It’s odd — I had forgotten about that part of the interview until Glen reminded me — but I do recall seeing it at the time and thinking how utterly delusional and anti-American such a statement was. But now, Bush appears to be Richard Nixon on steroids.
Should efforts to make this all go away quietly fail, there is always a simple, straight-forward, and legal pardon. This is the ace card in the hole for Libby, Rove and anyone else for whom Fitzgerald gets an itch.
So do they look worried? Umm, Not so much I think. Fitzmas? I don’t think so. Not when the president is not constrained by the laws of our land.
Um, I think that’s “Pony Blow” (hat tip, Hunter)
Christy @22
Your jury is still out on whether or not the Bush Administration is brain-dead politically? Yes. They’re fully brain-dead, and fully capable of quashing a Rove indictment. They’re torturing people and spying on us and looting the Treasury and calling it legal. What more evidence of brain death is required? I hope it’s not true but it fits their M.O. all the way.
I’m running Windows 98.
No problem with IE.
I’m seeing the same problems others report with Firefox.
FS, there’s a lot of discussion about that on the prior thread.
Why wouldn’t it now be logical for Gonzales to invoke “state secrets” to quash any new indictments? The administration is using and succeeding with that approach in other legal proceedings.
punaise @32:
same operating system here. i would call the color “dusty rose,” however.
Ditto #27.
But it’s like I always say about my beater cars, Paint makes ‘em pretty but it don’t make ‘em run better.
no problem. i’m having doubles here.
sucks if true. mite be too since seems to be taking some time.
Did Gonzales Kill Fitz’s Rove Indictments?
by JiggyFlunknut
Sun May 21, 2006 at 03:40:51 PM PDT
Last Friday, Judge Reggie Walton, the presiding judge in the Libby trial, deliberated over a case titled “SEALED v. SEALED.” There is growing speculation that sealed v. sealed is Fitzgerald v. Gonzales’ Deputy, Paul McNulty (Fitzgerald’s direct superior).
JiggyFlunknut’s diary :: ::
The Wayne Madsen Report and the Chris Matthews Show have both floated the theory that Fitzgerald had secured indictments against Rove, but Gonzales –via McNulty– came in at the last second and used his power as Fitzgerald’s superior to kill the indictments.
IF, this theory is true, Fitzgerald would have likely challenged McNulty’s decision in court, pointing to an earlier administrative directive from then acting Attorney General James Comey that gave Fitzerald the “authority of the Attorney General.” Comey is long gone, however, and was replaced by McNulty. The question then becomes what, if any, value does Comey’s administrative directive have today.
One unfortunate realty of this scenario is that if the judge sides with McNulty, we will never know what really happened, because it will remained sealed. Which, is one explanation about why Rove is acting so smug these days and why the White House has not pulled back his public schedule.
Site is totally SNAFUed for me too.
Comments wouldn’t work with the Kubric theme. The current “theme” has no header, the two columns are leaking into the main content, the blog ad images are floating over the main content. I can’t even read the stuff at the default settings and have had to increase my fonts alot! (Ever hear of web accessibility for the visually impaired?) Ugh. T’aint pretty or functional.
Suggestions for your webmaster:
Position is Everything to read up on making sites cross-platform usable http://www.positioniseverything.com
CSS Creator forum for browser checks http://www.csscreator.com
US Department of Health and Human Services for web usability standards http://www.usability.gov
Finally build the site in Firefox! not Internet Exploder!
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..184052/881
Hilde #17
I am using Firefox on a Mac too but formating seems correct here. Check Pref. ->content->Font advanced to see if that is what you want.
k
So, what now? Scooter saying he doesn%u2019t remember the conversations with the CIA either?
And could this mean that Scooter%u2019s conversations with reporters even before the Novak op-ed was published place him in violation of the IIPA, and that Fitzgerald is getting closer to being able to get to the underlying crime?
Wonder if there%u2019s an anti-perspirant specifically for flop sweat?
I don’t know how far ahead our hosts have books already scheduled for FDL Book Salon, but that AlterNet article linked to in #27 above took a lot of material from this book: The Bush Agenda — Invading the World, One Economy at a Time.
It looks like a good book for a FDL Book Salon session. The author, Antonia Juhasz, currently is on a book tour ending May 27.
–
I don’t know why they wouldn’t try and fire Fitz or quash Rove’s indictment. What do these criminals have to lose?
Rover could also be flipping I suppose on Cheney and maybe even Bush.
From time to time in my reading of the legal goings on, I try and put all my prejudices aside and read everything as if I’m a little ol lady juror -
Madame Prosecutor Smith – that sob is guilty !
here Ted, I think Mr. Fitzgerald has a little more rope for your client – sheesh
Hey! I just made a long post explaining how the site is SNAFUed and gave links to help the webmaster figure it out.
My comment vanished. So I won’t be going to the effort of looking up the URLs again…. but let it be known. Your site looks awful and is non-functional!
Larry:
That was my thought. If we can give credence to the motorcade at court Fri/May 19. Just drop off the ‘KILL’ order, and boom! Nothing left but ruin.
Glenn Greenwald has a bit today about State Secrets since 9/11
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..-bush.html
I’m with Sharon W at 23. I couldn’t for the life of me figure out the “news” in Pincus’s story yesterday, especially given that Pincus is an excellent reporter. I don’t understand why he wouldn’t use the two CIA officials names though but the NYDN would today. Is Libby leaking this information to scare Rove or signal something to Rove?
Tom – Chicago, FS already commented the diary once on this thread at 19 and Christy commented.
Tommy Yum 39
i would call the color ‘dusty rose’ however.
Dusty Foggo rose to the occasion
Christy, using AOL browser, for me the posts, comments, and even blogroll are not left-justified. No background color, no way to distinguish easily from post to post. I wonder who else out there is having the same trouble with the format. It won’t keep me from FDL (nothing could!). but I hope newcomers won’t be discouraged by the difficulty.
—
punaise @ 50 and Tommy Yum @ 39, it sounds like you two are Duke-ing it out. Let’s keep it civil . . .
MarcLord at 36 — well, that is true for Bush. But we are too close to the Fall elections for them to make that sort of move without talking to someone about it. And I would bet that GOP members of Congress with their asses on the line would have a LOT to say on that front. Karl Rove may be a smarmy, Machiavellian shit — but the won a whole lot of elections before him and will continue to do so when he’s gone. No one is irreplaceable — and I’m certain that if it came to a showdown, protecting the party’s ass would come first.
last post apparently eaten…
State Secrets makes sense IF they made a move at all.
Glenn Greenwald on the SS issue since 9/11 posted today:
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot…..-bush.html
Copying and pasting a comment from Word seem to result in an apostrophe appearing as %u2019t…weird.
Me, 48, if you would contribute more via pay pal, they could afford full time web manager. Please watch your tone. Your comment may be under moderation by the troll software.
Christy @53,
I’m formerly with you on the Fall election reasoning. But I’ve come to question whether they actually care or not–they’re not acting like they do.
Hope we get a frog march this week. The long wait is causing some speculation.
No Peterr,
it’s punaise who made the off-color comment in response to my hue and cry!
Win2K with IE6: no problems.
If Cheney gets indicted, will he have a major heart attack?
OK here—linux mozilla.
Copying and pasting a comment from Word seem to result in an apostrophe appearing as %u2019t%u2026weird.
That’s probably a character encoding issue. It might go away if you use iso-8859-1 in word. Anyone?
A question. If Fitz did already indict Rove and Abu quashed the indictment, I understand why Fitz’s “appeal” must be sealed. However, after final disposition of that case, why could not Fitz go public with the outcome? If an indictment were quashed, he should resign in protest and fully explain WHY.
Ok I’ll say it. Love you, love the site (until this moment). However, you know there are readers and posters of a certain age. So with snark and love in my heart I’ll say, “Could you make the print any smaller?”
Gang — we are working on some site upgrades today. That includes figuring out what is going on with the MAC browser issues. Some patience would be much appreciated, especially given that the folks (including the amazing Jamie at Intoxination) are volunteering their time to help us out.
Also, we’ve been slammed with SPAM lately and have the filters set on high to catch most of it. That also means that comments get sifted through as well at times, and I have to manually go through and approve the ones that get snagged. Along with researching, writing and everything else, it’s just going to require everyone taking a deep breath and being patient for a day or so until we get the bugs sorted out.
Thanks everyone for your patience. We’re doing what we can.
#65,
It did the same thing to me instead of quotation marks. I cut and pasted from the last thread.Using Firefox.
Sorry Christy,*g*, Was typing when you posted. I’ll just STFU now.Lol.
dratty: from the menu on your browser View -> Text Size to change the size of the font. You should also be able to change it by holding down the control key and scrolling the mouse wheel.
On Firefox you can override the font and size for every site if you prefer. Tools -> Options -> Content
on Firefox on Win5.1, the site is a beautiful sight to behold. You can cite me on that!
Way cool, Jamie . . .
Totally off the topic, I love that ‘refresh comments’ button. I AM the mouse that keeps pushing the button to get a treat. But when I freaked out this morning when I could not reach the comments at all, I just sent an email. Why is it that we get all huffy, and skewered when we cannot reach our ‘drug’ of choice — FDL.
Christy and Redd — you are dealing with addicts. Adjust accordingly.
Wow, I have a pink header for my comment — kewl.
Larry -
Judge in SF EFF v AT&T is scheduled to decide on states secrets claim on June 25th
the link below is for plantiff’s home page -left sidebar has ‘Hot Cases’ link – you may enjoy some of the filings (pdf’s) both supporting and dismissing the claim – IANAL, so I found some it too arcane for my blood
somewhere in my readings (Talk Left ?, LG & M ?) saw someone’s take on govt.’s chances on State Secrets being less than 50-50 in this case – I’ll see if I can fire up the memory hole and post it here
EFF
guess I’ll go over and see what Glenn has to say
re Grenier…at the bottom of the same article
This year, as CIA Counterterrorist Center chief, Grenier oversaw the failed missile strike aimed at Al Qaeda No. 2 Ayman Al-Zawahiri. Shortly afterward, Grenier was demoted.
But Vince Cannistraro, a former CIA counterterrorism chief, said Grenier lost his job over his “concerns about aggressive interrogations [of terrorist detainees] at secret sites.”
Wanted interrogations to be more or less aggressive, one wonders?
sonate #66
IANAL, but I suspect sealed means sealed until a judge officially rules otherwise. Fitz could resign in protest — but if he spoke about anything ‘under seal’ I’d imagine (at a minimum) he could lose his license to practice law. Given his track record to date, I seriously doubt Fitz would do anything that might call his professional integrity into question. He strikes me as very much ‘by the book’.
I’m thinking that an unexplained resignation might speak much louder than an explained one. But Jane believes it’s way too early to speculate much on this angle. So I’ll stop there.
THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT THE FALL ELECTIONS CUZ THEY’RE GONNA STEAL THEM JUST LIKE THEY DID THE LAST 4 ELECTIONS.
http://www.bradblog.com/
Christy @53,
I%u2019m formerly with you on the Fall election reasoning. But I%u2019ve come to question whether they actually care or not%u2013they%u2019re not acting like they do.
Christy – is there some way to make a contribution to FDL without using PayPal? I think it’s past time I paid for the privilege of getting my daily fix, and to compensate you and Jane for the agony of growing pains. :-)
Yes, lemond at 52!
And this part makes it clear that Pincus is talking about Fitz’s court appearance last week (not the documents we’ve already seen) and he is citing the two CIA officers, but with no names:
Now, of course, that last part corresponds to information we’ve already read before in the court filing he references, but this seems to be confirmation that THAT CIA official will be testifying against Libby and, in particular, that Libby learned of Plame’s status from him and knew damn well that it was classified.
Hope that by next week, Redd will be doing a thorough analysis of the ROVE indictment.
The Grassy Knoll is getting crowded —
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0523.html
…”In the telephone survey of 1200 individuals, just 47% agreed that “the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense.” Almost as many, 45%, indicated they were more likely to agree “that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success.”…
———-
Obviously ignorant.
NOT.
This place just keeps getting “cooler” & “cooler”…
Thanks to all that are makin it happen
“…it’s the ideas that count, not the number of trees you kill to print them.” – Phil Carter
er…gray type on gray background? 4 point type? Help…
Thanks SharonW., great comments.
An FYI regarding this article… the author is not very reliable.
James Gordon Meek has previously written articles that alleged (1) that anti-war protests had been infiltrated by Iraqi no-goodniks and that double-secret terrorists in Zimbabwe would attack if we invaded Iraq; (2) that in March 2003 secret Iraqi mega-commandos had attempted to sneak into Crawford by way of Mexico to kill the president; and (3) the “exclusive” news that John Ashcroft was to tour the nation in support of Patriot II, then known as the “Victory Act.” I believe Meek was the first journalist to refer to it as the “Victory Act” as well.
Meek’s article may be solid gold… I have no idea. But he has a proven track record as a stenographer for people with agendas. Take whatever he writes with a hearty grain or three of salt.
Christy et al., having been through various systems changeovers at a prior job, I know what a mess the whole thing can be, and some things you just don’t see until the system goes live and you start to hear from end-users. As an end-user here at FDL, I am wildly happy about the FDL upgrades – you folks aren’t content to let things pass you by – and just want to help the process along by identifying a glitch.
Maybe you might want to keep a “Updating the Upgrade” post somewhere on the front page, to give us a place to make these kinds of comments without disrupting the flow of the important discussions of Dubya’s doublespeak, Mora and Murtha’s march for military morality, and Fitz’s fabulousness.
For larger print hold down ctrl and hit the button. Adjust to please. Reverse is ctrl and the – button.
that would be the plus button.
wasn’t this info published yesterday by Walter Pincus in WaPo? Could swear I read it already.
rwcole @ 31
I caught part of a CSPAN broadcast this weekend with several writers including Ariana Huffington and Pat Roberts. The topic of the social wedge issues such as gay marriage and abortion came up and one of the conservative panelists was talking about how they were age-related issues on the right. That if you looked at younger people on the right, the issues went away, but that the younger people on the right were not voting. Even Pat Roberts agreed that this was correct.
This seems like it presents a huge opportunity for progressives to find common ground.
FWIW – love the refresh comments button but miss the automatic preview of the comment that I am writing. I know you have bigger issues to resolve, but would love it if you could ultimately bring it back. Thanks for all your hard work and the work of all the volunteers pitching in!
is it possible that sealed v. sealed was an application by rove to quash the a sealed indictment against him?
From Capital Hill Blue: Out, out damn truth
“As more and more information comes in on the Jason Leopole-Truthout Karl Rove indictment non-story, it looks more and more like the story was without truth. Sources within the Patrick Fitzgerald investigation into the CIA leak case tell us Rove wasn’t indicted 10 days ago and may not be indicted. If an indictment is to come, it has not come yet. The case, they say is incomplete.
In the meantime, Eric Umansky, who writes the “Today’s Papers” blog for Slate, weighs in:….”
Christy – I am using latest safari on a mac and experiences a couple glitches earlier in the day (it seems everyone was). But now, all is smooth. Also, my blog was getting hammered with spam as well (also wordpress) since friday – 750-1000 spam comments. I added a lot of words to the spam filter and am now getting none. don’t know if it was my doing or the addition of more words helped.
Peter at 86, well said.
Did Leopold burn his sources, as promised?
Anne at 79 — I know Jane has made arrangements in the past for that, but I’m not certain how she worked it. You could e-mail her and I’m sure she’d be able to tell you what has worked for that sort of donation.
Popping back in to add:
Ditto Peterr #86. I produce web sites for a living. It’s a real-time, “always on” situation. No downtime, ever. Ladies of the Lake, I feel your pain and so have the greatest admiration for you. Developing fresh content and upgrading a site at the same time is a monumental task.
FYI, it’s sort of industry standard to intro revisions that meet specs of 90% of OS/browsers in the market. That’s the TOTAL market, not just FDL’s audience. So you make everything work on MS IE and then go back and tweak to bring the other browsers up to speed.
Patience is a virtue when it comes to upgrading a site. Then again, when site upgrades are happening and I’m not aware of it, I panic when I can’t get to the site, to the articles and comments.
Alas, I’m an addict too and I WANT MY FDL!
1,159 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON…
Who says history doesn’t repeat…we are at our “Saturday Night Massacre”! Now, will the bloodletting reach the public so there can be a reaction? If the indictments and the quashing of ‘em remain sealed and the federal government will go after anyone who exposes that information…will the information come out slowly drip by drip, muting the reaction?
Christy: this is it girl, all bets are off now. The judicial system that you have given a good portion of yer life to and that you hold so dear is gone. The rest of the system includin’ rperesentative elections, is DOA.
“…not with a bang but a whisper.”
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS IS THE END OF DEMOCRACY!!
#98,
Democracy at gunpoint?(Snark)
Heads up — especially for Jane:
Democracy for America email received today, with subject line:
Joe Lieberman: George Bush’s favorite Democrat?
“For years, Joe Lieberman has supported President Bush on issue after issue. He supported Bush’s crusade to dismantle Social Security and he folded on the nominations of Justices Roberts and Alito. Lieberman voted for the invasion of Iraq and he continues to stand in the way of real solutions that will bring our troops home. He has even supported attempts to label criticism of the war as unpatriotic. Last winter, he said, “It is time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be Commander-in-Chief for three more critical years, and that in matters of war we undermine Presidential credibility at our nation’s peril.”
On Friday, Connecticut Democrats said, “Enough.”"…
Most excellent.
Running XP and Firefox 1.5.0.3 and it all looks great to me, can only remark that pictures now hang on opening and it takes FOREVER to get the comments to open.
And yeah, wouldn’t be surprised at all that AG quashed Rove’s indictment: 110% plausible, in view of BushCo’s absolute shamelessness, and it also lends some credence to J. Alexander’s report that Rove had been indicted last week and his vehement stand that he had multiple sources to back up his reporting.
I love it here no matter how hinky it gets. Patience is its own reward.
way off topic – baby eagle webcam: http://www.infotecbusinesssystems.com/wildlife/
tom-chicago (42) — let me throw out a question, no judgment attached, in regards to that diary entry from DailyKos.
Any chance that was Jason Leopold writing under JiggyFlunknut?
Just wondering.
Sorry, haven’t absorbed the full thread, but – the Pincus article *says* a hearing last week, but he is quoting from, and referring to, the May 5th hearing. The hearing last week was on subpoenas to the media.
Pincus is news-free, but he does manage to misrpresent one piece – per Pincus, “Fitzgerald has said that at trial he plans to show that Libby knew Plame’s employment at the CIA was classified…”
But per Fitzgerald, in a court hearing on Feb 24, we have this:
So we will argue that he [Libby] knew or should have known it [Plame’s status] was classified and that he was being investigated for disclosing classified information.
As to the CIA officers, I don’t want to say “old news”, but Grenier’s name came out a while ago, and I would guess Schmall is a bit more recent. In any case, neither name is based on recent court filings that have not already been kicked around by the usual suspects.
And although Pincus does not mention it, when Fitzgerald described the warning received by Libby *after* Novak’s column was published, Fitzgerald does not use the word “classified” in describing that warning.
Well – the defense has surely gotten a transcript, so they know what the actual testimony was about the warning – we may be in for a surprise, but they are not.
As to the CIA agents:
Grenier is point 7 of the Libby indictment:
7. On or about June 11, 2003, LIBBY spoke with a senior officer of the CIA to ask about the origin and circumstances of Wilson’s trip, and was advised by the CIA officer that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip.
And Schmall is point 11:
11. On or about June 14, 2003, LIBBY met with a CIA briefer. During their conversation he expressed displeasure that CIA officials were making comments to reporters critical of the Vice President’s office, and discussed with the briefer, among other things, “Joe Wilson” and his wife “Valerie Wilson,” in the context of Wilson’s trip to Niger.
So we are not even talking about explosive new evidence.
General question:
Where IS the refresh comments button? I’ve looked all over the page and don’t find it…
Could be a Mozilla-related glitch..
Wrt the last line of #97,
Hi, My name is Bustednuckles, and I’m a FireDogLake addict.Btw, There is no known cure.Resistance is futile.
#106, Should be directly on top of “leave a reply”.
TM, thanks for digging out the references. But I still want to know why do we suppose that Pincus didn’t name names and the NYDN is today?
Just in the interests of accuracy, do we know if Rove still has his clearance for definite?
Giving up his policy role and moving back to political efforts would suggest that it was revoked? Or do political animals still get to see all the classified information they want?
I think people should talk more about the significance of Libby and Rove telling the same two lies: (1) that they learned Valerie Plame’s identity from journalists; and (2) that when they spoke to the FBI and testified initially to the grand jury, they just forgot about the various communications among administration officials regarding Valerie Plame.
The fact that they both told lie #1 indicates that they schemed together to leak Plame’s identity and to create the cover that they heard it from journalists.
The fact that they are both using lie #2 as their alibi makes it even less credible than it is individually for either one of them. As unlikely as it is that either Libby or Rove would have forgotten all about the relevant conversations and emails within the administration, it’s even more unlikely it would slip both their memories. Lightening doesn’t strike twice.
These inferences may not be admissible or appropriate in court, but they seem to make a lot of sense for purposes of public discourse.
Tom at 106 — Thanks. I have had time to do only a cursory look see for any new filings and found…nothing thus far. Tech issues and comment moderating are putting a hitch in my research giddy-up this morning. Much appreciated. I knew we had the briefer and another CIA op/official in the indictment — but isn’t this the first time we’ve gotten any name reporting? (Again, with the caveat that life has sucked from top to bottom for me this morning on the research end of things, but I can’t find any other reporting where they are specifically named. Am I missing a piece somewhere or overlooking one that you found?)
Thanks Bustednuckles
FYI Christie: the refresh button doesn’t appear on the latest Firefox browser (1.5.0.3) running XP, and page picture and comments loading times are very long too.
Chrissy and Jane,
I work out of our home so have lots of computers here. Your site and comments look fine on Macs running OS 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, running Netscape Navigator, Safari and IE as browsers on all systems – all looked fine. Don’t currently use Firefox. Also looks great on PCs!
BTW has The Note or Chris Matthews announced yet that the CIA leak investigation grand jury will be meeting tomorrow?
Then we’ll know, for sure, that:
“It’s Tuesday, so we must be in Washington”.
Great job, as always!
And , for once, on topic;
I think it is SWEET irony that 2 CIA guy’s are going to drive another stake through the heart of Scooter’s lies.
As Christy so eloquently says,
BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAA.
Hmm -
Gosh, I didn’t even know there is a refresh comments button.
I use Firefox (on Mac OS X at home and a Windows box at work). The “refresh comments” button doesn’t show on either….
No complaints (I use the browser page refresh key, instead) – just posted to help the glitch hunt.
I love fdl – glitches and all – and I appreciate the work that Jane and Christy do here.
Thanks!
This seems very confused to me. The Pincus article seems to refer to Fitz docs from last week or earlier, which suggested that CIA folks had discussed PLame’s status in Libby’s presence — but this occurred after the Novak column. Despite the timing, this was cited as possible evidence that Libby might still have had a motive to lie to the GJ, because by then, he would have known about the “harm” he might have done and could therefore not claim he hadn’t done anything wrong (and so had no reason to lie).
The NYDaily News article suggests one or more CIA folks talked to Libby about Plame’s status — but this time, before the Novak column, which is a different story — possibly different CIA people, at earliers times, and under conditions in which the WH had an obligation to protect Plame’s status — but didn’t. That news not only supports the perjury etc indictments, it goes to deeper crimes.
So are there really two stories and two sets of conversations here, or only confusion about one set of conversations, somewhere between Pincus and NYDN?
Gotta go catch a plane and hope to know tonight!
Redd: (#68):
Very well an indication of the “war” for hearts and minds in the US (Spam attacks, etc.). We’re hurtin’ ‘em and they’re letting us know.
i’m not having any problems with my OSX/firefox browser.
rant ala Mancha:
IMO (IANT – ‘I am no tech’)…building a website for the world’s leakiest browser seems counterproductive.
Open source has advantages.
Kirk Murphy #117:
It was there earlier, now it’s gone. More tweaking, I guess.
Re:
11. On or about June 14, 2003, LIBBY met with a CIA briefer. During their conversation he expressed displeasure that CIA officials were making comments to reporters critical of the Vice President’s office, and discussed with the briefer, among other things, “Joe Wilson” and his wife “Valerie Wilson,” in the context of Wilson’s trip to Niger.
Does “that CIA officials were making comments to reporters critical of the Vice President’s office” imply that Joe Wilson is/was in the same CIA capacity as his wife?
Just asking.
Bustedknuckles 108 – re FDL dependence. I am undertaking a twelve (thousand) step program, embarking right now on a looooong walk around the
blogblock for some de-flippancy fresh air…..*ztiF*
You people are so cynical. Why is it so hard for you to believe that:
1. Libby forgot that he called the CIA twice in June to find out about Wilson’s trip;
2. Libby forgot that the CIA told him not once but twice in June that Wilson’s wife was CIA and was “assumed” to be involved in arranging his trip;
3. Libby forgot that this tangential conversation was the basis of the subsequent talking point with reporters that Wilson was lying when he said that Cheney sent him to Niger (which in fact Wilson never said);
4. Its a complete coincidence that Cheney wrote the words “boondoggle arranged by his wife” on a copy of Wilson’s July 6 article;
5. Libby forgot that he already knew about Plame and accidentally confused his conversations in June with the CIA about Plame with conversations with Russert in July that were not about Plame;
6. Its a complete coincidence that Rove also “misremembered” that he first learned about Plame from reporters;
7. Libby forgot that he talked about Plame with Miller and Cooper;
8. Rove forgot that he talked about Plame with Cooper, even after Victoria Novak told Luskin that Rove had talked to Cooper about Plame.
It all sounds so…innocent and accidental to me. I can’t believe y’all think they might be, you know, lying.
OT – Tony Snow – when asked about the william jefferson office raid being an abuse of power – “using the term ‘raid’ makes it sound like cowboys storming the halls of congress.”
–isn’t that what Chimpy has done? He’s a cowboy that forced his way in.
OfT: Country radio nixes Dixie Chicks
NASHVILLLE, Tenn., May 22 (UPI) — It appears the war U.S. country radio stations mounted against the politically outspoken Dixie Chicks has not abated in the least.
The band is promoting “Taking the Long Way,” its first album since Natalie Maines told a London audience in 2003 she was ashamed to be from the same state as U.S. President George Bush. The comment sparked a radio boycott of the group’s music.
Although the album hits stores Tuesday, the first two singles from the album are not getting widespread airplay, Billboard.com reported Monday…..”
OT, Kirk Murphy, I agree with al-scooter. It allowed you to refresh just the comments without refreshing the whole page.
#126 twolf1
“isn’t that what Chimpy has done? He’s a cowboy that forced his way in.”
chimpy’s no more a cowboy than ronnie raygun or john wayne.
punaise,
hard to tell if that was snark or a backhanded comment on my being too flippant. Time will tell after your journey.
Just popping in a sec here to give feedback (before taking a nap after the very early a.m. doctor’s appt today) on the “changes” here.
I feel left out! Nothing, I mean absolutely NOTHING looks different here since the last time I posted a couple of days ago.
Colors are the same (mostly grey), layout the same, fonts and size thereof are the same, preview function working beautifully just as before, and I have no new button anywhere to “refresh comments” or anything else.
The browser I’m using at the moment is Mozilla, BTW.
So am I in some sort of time warp?
I’m afraid to clear my cache, for fear of bringing up a less user-friendly mode — although it’s true I’d be willing to go through all sorts of aggravation for the sake of FDL, which I love and consider my online home (whenever I can get here these days, as “real life” sadly intervenes).
I’m just curious — does anyone have any idea why I’m not seeing anything at all like what everyone else is describing?!? — no new changes here at all! Is it something just so simple as not clearing my cache???
Busted – the flippancy is mine. I made a bit of a mess ’round here last night (sorry marily! left something at the tail end of Late Nite)…
a bientot
litigatormom @ 125, you’re bringing back all those Watergate memories again: “Senator, to the best of my recollection, I do not remember . . .”
Maybe those hearings are where Scott McC. got his training as press secretary: “Can’t comment on an ongoing investigation . . . Can’t comment . . . Can’t comment . . .
John Casper @ 10:30 am (#127) – On the plus side, they’re one of the few country music singers whose albums I will buy. I suspect there are quite a few of us out there. It’s been a long time between Dixie Chicks albums, and the last one was terrific.
Imus gave much play to the new Dixie Chicks CD this morning. Good on him.
aarrgghh 128–
No, he’s really a real rootin’ tootin’ cowboy. take a look:
Bush Assidy
-and-
Bush Assidy and the Shotgun Kid
OK help me out here folks.
We now know that Fitzgerald knows that
1) Libby knew Plame’s CIA status was classified
2) He had reason and motive to give her name to reporters
3) He deliberately gave her name to reporters.
Now doesn’t that meet all the criteria for illegally outing a CIA agent?
The only thing I can think of as Scooter’s defense is that . . . someone ELSE higher up directed him to do it! And we all know who that is . . .
good lord.
That T.Snow quote…’Cowboys storm the halls of Congress’ – along with other gory things, that’s a scene from early in Atwood’s ‘Handmaid’s Tale’…
I hope that’s not an accidental/on purpose foreshadowing…
Maybe they DON’T care about the ‘06 elections. Either stolen or some atrocity to be named later, but before Nov. voting day.
hmm … i’m using both safari 2.0 and firefox 1.5.0.3 on mac osx 10.4 and the “refresh comments” button has disappeared from both windows. everything was working fine until now.
Litigatormom #125:
It’s Vivica Novak, but otherwise you’ve nailed it as far as my non-legal mind can follow. For anyone who believes that proof is an “overwhelming balance of probabilities”, what are the odds that Libby’s merely the victim of circumstances?
#135 twolf1
i stand corrected.
it is unlikely anybody in this Administration has ever read “A Handmaid’s Tale” except maybe as a training manual . . .
Redd, I made a quick trip to the docket today meself to see if anything new had been filed that would account for the anming of the two CIA officers; although i can’t say this was exhaustive, I came up with basically gooseggs. Checked the main US v. Libby docket as well as all of the “Misc.” cases — those matters concerning reporter subpoenas that are docketed separately — for anything filed since the 20th. Fitz’s last filing was a short mostly case-law oriented reply-type brief. Andrea Mitchell and NBC News each filed something (yesterday) for Reggie’s eyes only. I’m wondering if there’s an attachment to an earlier filing that we all missed that named the agents. Maguire is right that the basics — i.e., that there were two conversations with CIA personnel about Plame prior to the Novak article — are old news, but i’m at a loss to see where the names have come in.
*ilson46201 141 – …or in bush’s case, had it read to him
O/T kinda
Considering this creature doesn’t even like to have it’s picture taken – this 9 page story on Cheney’s Cheney is mind blowing, that it’s in a mainstream media site is even more mindblowing !!
the kid over at TPM Muck posits that this is WH throwing him under the bus (in my most fevered dreams, I am driving it) I don’t know if it’s the case, but am encouraged seeing a very thick layer has been peeled away – so much of what these creatures have done has been done in the shadows
this most detailed reading to date, confirms my long held fears – this is the Anti-Fitz – tremendous intellectual capacity, photgraphic memory, so much of what Fitz has – but unfortunately for all Americans, used for antithetical purposes
there is no panacea for our current ills, but taking this devil out would go a long way in stopping them
Rasputin’s Rasputin
attwood, the handmaid’s tale author, is canadian.
canadian=french; nuf said. the merkin people don’t need to read frenchified books!
New thread. C’mon upstairs.
Hi Mrs. K8!
the changes everyone was commenting on have temporarily disappeared – more tweaking as someone upthread suggested
No disrespect to you Bustedknuckles; punaise, I really treasure your rare abilities.
I know punaise is way too considerate to intentionally try and hurt anyone’s feelings. He just isn’t that way.
I think you handled it just right Busted, if you think someone is having fun at your expense, ask, get it out in the open, nobody will tolerate that. I’m just being selfish here, I don’t want to lose punaise’s speed of light gift for punning.
#104 Thanks so much for the baby eagle cam link! I got to it just as Mama was arriving . . . totally cool!
BTW, is that Stephen Jr.?? :)
Just to pick up on what Maguire said, Team Libby first identified Grenier and Schmall as among the candidates for being the CIA people identified in the indictment in their March 17 third motion to compel discovery, and then Fitzgerald nailed down the two of the them as the relevant people in his April 5 Reply to Libby’s third motion to compel discovery.
So it’s not new news, just mining documents that have been out there. I take it the news is not just identifying those two but specifying that they will be witnesses at the trial (which was suggested but not definitively by the indictment, where they appear unidentified).
For what it’s worth, the Pincus article messed up the dates and order of things. The hearing he talks about was May 5, not May 12, and the filing he works on was filed in response to an issue that came up at the May 5 hearing.
Thanks, cbl!
I was beginning to wonder if I was stuck in some strange Twilight Zone where time had stood still at a moment in the past.
Although that might not be a bad thing if I could go back to a time prior to the arrival of this crime family in the WH, (you know, when America was still recognizable as the place we’d always loved and worked to improve) and STAY THERE.
I appreciate you taking the time to let me know what’s what.
Thanks al-scooter at 117…
I was starting to wonder if I had “negative hallucinations” (perceiving something is absent when – in reality – the thing is present).
It does sound like a nifty feature….
(the refresh, not the hallucinations)
The JiggyFlunknut diary at Kos was the single stupidest moment in the entire Plame saga.
Lotta trolls out (or maybe one changing names) in multiple threads now on FDL to promote it.
Jeff at 150 — Oh, thank god someone found where those names had come up previously. My daughter took the liberty of “rearranging” my Plame research over the weekend, and I am just now getting things back in order. Couldn’t for the life of me remember where I’d seen them, but knew those names had come from somewhere. Thank you!
John Casper. I absolutely agree wrt to punaise, Awesome sense of humor.T’would be a grievous loss if he were to go. I sat and re-read his comment several times and seriously couldn’t get a’take’ on what he was trying to say.So, rather than brood on it (un healthy) I out and asked. That is one serious drawback to the ‘net. no ability to see facial expressions and hear voice inflection.I once had the same thing happen to me here a while back and was instantly hurt. Then i stewed over it. So, I think it’s better to just ask.
OT…and to second John Casper here with my selfish plea. I end most days with a glass of wine, smoking cigs (shhhh…) reading FDL with relish. Punaise has brightened the dark night on many, many, many occasions. I choose now to say thanks, with hopes that whatever guilt is being felt will diminish on that long walk around the block. Please, don’t change your MO…it is a gift!
Kate
OT … Please show Patrick Healy, the Clinton Panty Sniffer, some love at http://empirezone.blogs.nytimes.com/?p=42#comments
I will be buying TWO copies of the Dixie Chicks new CD, one to cancel out one fool who won’t buy because of their stance on the Presidunce. They are SO yummie.
John Casper and all, thanks for the kind words. Bustedknuckles, sorry to have caused consternation, I was just using your FDL addiction comment as a springboard for my own. Absolutely wasn’t a comment directed at your persona or valued commentary.
Not trying to be melodramatic, folks. Yesterday was a bad “here” day, inadvertently stepped on a few toes. Been taking up too much bandwidth at FDL and – not inconsequentially – taking refuge too much from work.
OK, now I’m really out of here for a while; catch y’all later!
Christie, I think I understand sealed v. sealed, but what the heck is a sealed docket? Look here:
http://www.abanet.org/journal/…..ecret.html
I literally could not make it through “A Handmaid’s Tale” – got nearly halfway through it before I decided the whole thing was just to depressing and scary. It is my nightmare scenario…
1,159 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON…
Bustedknuckles,
If the snark A #100 was aimed at me…well, jest a sigh, you’ve already done enough damage taday. It’s sad though, dear, thatcha don’t even know when you’ve been fucked ‘cuz nobody unzipped their pants.
Punaise, do whatcha hafta do but come back full of it, this community needs you.
Norske, It was just a bad joke. As for the misusnderstanding with punnaise ,i just didn’t read it right. As for any damage, well, it wasn’t intentional. I try and respect everyone here.
FYI. Re Daily News article re CIA officials testifying in Libby trial. This may be from a filing by Libby on 3/17/06 (Docket #68), which can be obtained via a link on Jason Leopold’s article the following day. See wwww.truthout.org/docs_2006/printer_031906Z.shtml [that’s “shtml” following the last dot]; file pages 11 & 12 (brief pages 7 & 8).
how come pics at top of posts appear and other times do not? My win xp and java is up to date. is it this site ?
What Litigatormom said at 125! Although the word Cheney used was “junket” arranged by his wife. I think Libby thought he was being clever and concealing his tracks when he referred to it as a “boondoggle.” And regarding your point 5, not only did Libby “misremember” the conversation with Russert as being about Mrs. Plame Wilson, he misremembered it with details seemingly designed to add verisimilitude: “I believe I said ‘I don’t even know if he has a wife,’ or something like that.”
Jason Leopold , Tom Maguire and I all reported on Libby’s naming of Grenier and Schmall on March 17. The pleading is here. Libby named them again in his May 12 filing.
So why is the News reporting this today?
I went back and re-read the May 5 hearing transcript today (which Christy did such a great job analyzing) and I’m struck again by how much Libby has it in for Marc Grossman and Ari Fleischer.
Booman Tribune has more today on Libby and Grenier
Jeff, first let me say I’m glad to see others a bit confused over these two articles, however, with regards to what you said here:
For what it’s worth, the Pincus article messed up the dates and order of things. The hearing he talks about was May 5, not May 12, and the filing he works on was filed in response to an issue that came up at the May 5 hearing.
I don’t think Pincus screwed up. Pincus says specifically “according to a May 12 court filing by the government.”
May 12th is the date of the filing for the May 5th argument.
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/…..dings.html
And considering this is a public trial, what is to prevent a reporter from sitting in on it rather than wait for the court transcript?
This looks like dot connecting to me from document and hearing to document and hearing. Maybe the Daily News pieced together that which Pincus couldn’t or maybe they have another source.
What all this seems to say now is that two CIA officials will testify that Libby knew Plame’s employment was classified because they told him and this was before he gave his statements to the FBI which was one motive for lying. The Daily News added their names to further flesh out the story and these names came from a list of people mentioned before in other court papers adding another layer, perhaps, to the accuracy.
Additionally, the BIGGER news is that these two CIA guys had these discussions BEFORE Libby spoke to any reporters providing yet a second motive to lie. Libby KNEW her position was classified.
My e-mail to the NYT public editor:
I am very disappointed in the ugly story about the Clinton’s in your newspaper. “All the news that’s fit to print”?? Please!
This is one reason why this former subscriber to your once-great newspaper isn’t going to send any money your way for some time to come! Whitewater, Wen-Ho Lee, Anthrax, Bush, Iraq, Judy Miller…and again Clinton!
Disgusting, to put it mildly…
Amit
Oop! Wrong thread (prev. comment)
Sorry!
Sharon W at 168 – Not a lot hangs on this besides precision, but Pincus talks about the hearing and the filing taking place on the same day, May 12. I think Pincus was misled by 1)the fact that the transcript from the May 5 hearing appears to have been released on may 12; and 2)the fact that a key passage in the May 12 filing refers to a March 5 hearing, when it clearly means May 5. The fact is that the May 12 filing was in response to Walton directing Fitzgerald to submit such a filing with regard to which articles he intended to submit as part of the case against Libby.
Talkleft at 167 – I assume the notable negativity in tone in Team Libby’s treatment of Grossman and Fleischer is some combination of 1)they’ve got stronger grounds for going negative on Grossman and Fleischer – Grossman because he’s an old pal of Wilson’s, and Fleischer because, apparently, he’s operating with a cooperation agreement; 2)we simply haven’t heard as much of what they have to say about the CIA folks because, I presume, they will be covered in some of the non-public hearings. Presumably they are going to argue that some are misremembering, and others are motivated by institutional and personal animosity and CIA-protection to go after Libby.
Senator Playback with Mel Gibson. I grew up with Point Blank and Lee Marvin. Point Blank was a friend of mine. Playback you are no Point Blank.
PS – Redd has yr daughter passed her polygraph lately!? And we are all keeping encrypted backups stored off site are we not? Security culture begins at home.
I have a questions for the legal people that read this site.
If Novak isn’t on Gonzales’ list of journalist being considered for prosecution for publishing leaked classified information, doesn’t that open up a selected prosecution defense for ones that are?
Evening Folks,
I’m not able to check this,as I can’t recall exactly where I saw the comments,but concerning the “Sealed” indictments,I recall seeing this covered somewhere a few days ago,it may even have been here at FDL,but the issue was discussed,and if my memory serves me well,the conclusion reached was that the story was a piece of crap(although that viewpoint is definitely NOT borne out by the Poll on Daily Kos).
I think I recall one commenter stating that there would be a legal problem with this,as apparently Abu Gonzo is not legally empowered to quash an indictment,I presume for similar reasons why(at least here in TonyB.LiarLand) the law does not to my knowledge provide for anyone(government or accused,the law takes its course unless the law decides otherwise) to object to arrest or charge,only to an actual court verdict,when then of course there is the right to an appeal.I seem to recall that a similar statute is in play here,ie the fact that Abu G cannot interfere at this point,no one can.Please don’t shout too loudly at me if I am completely wrong,I am an old man with sensitive ears.
Secondly,I recall that someone else took time to check the Court Dockets in the relevant place on the relevant day,and found no entry which could refer to the one quoted in the article which was being discussed,which I am assuming was the one from the Daily Kos,unless it had appeared elsewhere previously.I only wish I could provide definite links etc,but I am sure someone out there will know more about this than I do.
Sorry if this is a load of nonsense,but I have just read all the comments,and (at the time of writing this)this hasn’t been mentioned,so I thought I would venture the info,and see if it strikes a chord anywhere else.
Peace,Love and Respect to all the FDL community,I agree with those who speak of addiction in relation to FDL,I would love to chip in my £0.10 worth more often,but I always want to read the comments before I say anything,and by then it is a case of being EPU squared,so usually I just lurk and learn.
Really I should be continuing where I left off on the thread I got half way through last night before the brain turned to green cheese.
So,if I STFU eventually,I can do just that.
Take Care you lot,Life would not be the same without you all,too many to pass on individual respects,but even though I really only hang on the periphery,and in a different country too,the real sense of community is easy to see here,most especially in the ways folks,(We shall ignore the species Trollus Fuckwittii Repuglithuganium) interact with each other in personal matters,congratulation,moral support,sympathy,understanding etc.And all this and some wicked humour too.I am truly hooked.
Goodnight All,Rambling Ghost,Lincoln,England
Sharon W at 168 – Not a lot hangs on this besides precision, but Pincus talks about the hearing and the filing taking place on the same day, May 12. I think Pincus was misled by 1)the fact that the transcript from the May 5 hearing appears to have been released on may 12; and 2)the fact that a key passage in the May 12 filing refers to a March 5 hearing, when it clearly means May 5. The fact is that the May 12 filing was in response to Walton directing Fitzgerald to submit such a filing with regard to which articles he intended to submit as part of the case against Libby.
I still don’t see it Jeff. In every instance Pincus refers to the May 12th court filing. I don’t think he’s confused, he’s just refering readers to the filing about the hearing. Never does he use the word hearing. However, he does add that Fitz’s oral argument in court last week reflected the same thoughts that were in the filing.
Secondly, the only March date mentioned in the article was Libby’s testimony before the grand jury.
Now where confusion sets in between the Pincus article and the Daily News is that the DN is claiming that Grenier and Schmall are two CIA guys who WILL testify against Libby as they had discussed Plame with Libby in early June (before speaking to reporters). These two guys were among five CIA names mentioned in Libby’s attorney’s filing on Mar. 17th, the others being McLaughlin, Clement or Barrett.
In the Pincus article, Fitz references the CIA person who spoke to Libby and another person in July after the Novak article and Libby’s attorneys state they believe that person to be Bill Harlowe.
The Daily News is the first article to state definitively that the two testifiying will be Grenier and Schmall.
Sharon W – First off, the interactions between the CIA and Libby discussed by the NYDN article and the Pincus article are completely different. The NYDN article is talking about two events in June 2003; and Schmall and Grenier are the relevant CIA officials. We’ve known about these events since the indictment, but we haven’t known who the CIA individuals were. That, however, was revealed definitively by Fitzgerald back in an April 5, 2006 filing (though the March 17, 2006 filing by Libby’s defense had included them among the candidates for the previously unnamed CIA officials). The event Pincus is talking about took place some time on or shortly after July 14, 2003. We still don’t know the identity of the CIA official who talked to Libby about Novak’s article. Where do you see Libby’s defense expressing the belief that that was Harlow. As best as I can tell, the fact that there was such an encounter was only revealed in the May 5, 2006 hearing and then in a little more detail in the May 12, 2006 filing by Fitzgerald.
Here is a passage where Pincus is clearly confused on dates:
The CIA official discussed “the dangers posed by disclosure of the CIA affiliation of one of its employees,” according to a May 12 court filing by the government.
At the oral argument that same day, Fitzgerald, referring to the conversation, described the CIA official as a witness who described to Libby “and another person the damage that can be caused specifically by the outing of Ms. Wilson.”
That oral argument was May 5, 2006. There is also the fact that Pincus talks about “last week’s court argument on pretrial motions.” The article was published on May 22, so there is no way to call May 5 last week.
The mixup on March 5 is from the May 12, 2006 filing, where Fitzgerald states:
At some time thereafter, as discussed briefly at the March 5 oral argument, the CIA official discussed in the defendant’s presence the dangers posed by disclosure of the CIA affiliation of one of its employees as had occurred in the Novak column
From Jeff, 171:
2)we simply haven’t heard as much of what they have to say about the CIA folks because, I presume, they will be covered in some of the non-public hearings. Presumably they are going to argue that some are misremembering, and others are motivated by institutional and personal animosity and CIA-protection to go after Libby.
I am not sure why Libby is worried about Grossman, since Grossman told Libby about Plame in mid-June, just before Libby’s mind went blank (Libby’s chat with Ari’s on July 7 is clearly a problem for the defense).
Since the two CIA guys are also mid-June, I am not sure they are bad witnesses for the defense – apparently, Grenier will say that (quoting the indictment) “Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip.”
And it is an excellent bet that neither of these CIA officers told Libby that Plame’s status was classified – if they had, Fitzgerald would have (or should have) mentioned that in his May 12 filing, rather than the post-Novak warning (and the description of the warning curiously omits the word “classified” as well).
To be clear – I have no doubt that Plame’s status was classified, but Fitzgerald has not offered any evidence of anyone telling that to Libby.
Nor do I think he is planning a surprise for the defense and the judge (which would violate the spirit of discovery). From the April 5 Fitzgerald filing:
In addition, the government has produced to defendant documents, received from any source, relating to conversations, correspondence, or meetings involving defendant in which Mr. Wilson’s trip was discussed…
I assume that would cover the grand jury testimony of Grenier and Schmall.
I think the defense can endure two CIA guys saying they mentioned Plame to Libby in mid-June, did not say she was classified, and (in one case) saying she was involved with Wilson’s trip.
J
I assume that would cover the grand jury testimony of Grenier and Schmall.
I can’t even believe I think I can post about this, but I believe that assumption is incorrect. I believe grand jury testimony is Jencks material, which I take to mean, at least among other things, it is material relating to prosecution witnesses that the prosecution doesn’t have to give to the defense until we get much closer to those witnesses actually testifying at trial.
In other words, Team Libby does not have the presumably meatiest stuff from the prosecution witnesses. But my understanding is that Fitzgerald is not going to wait nearly as long as he could to hand the Jencks material over to the defense. And it doesn’t mean that Fitzgerald does have a surprise along these lines ready for the defense. It just means he still might. But I would bet against it.
Like I said, I can’t believe I can say anything about this. If any of it is incorrect, I blame Plamania.
As for Grossman, it now occurs to me that Team Libby may try to inflate his significance precisely because he is the richest target for discrediting; so by focusing on Grossman, they can depict Libby as more of a victim.
This is a little off the subject of the Libby court case but I was thinking about the Plame case last night and also about the lies that the Bush administration told about going to war in Iraq and just about everything else and I was thinking that getting even with Wilson was a pretty dumb excuse for outing his wife. What if Plame was really working with a team that was investagating the Iran weapons program, could it be possible that the administration did not want the investagation to go forward? Then when they decide to go to war in Iran there would be no intellegence that could come back and bite them. Perhaps I am suffering from paranoia.
Christy:
be at the least, Title 18, Section 793? Just failing to report a
I really like the new functionality. The refresh button was handy, when I finally read all the way to post #179. In any event, I thought there was going to be more on the SF-312 and how we might have something beyond the motive to lie (793 and 794)? At the very least, the threat of the penalties included in the SF-312 (including the Espionage Act) would be sufficient motive for Libby and Rove to lie. The 2 posts in all 179 comments that came to the closest to the SF-312 (that I thought would be covered):
Oscarsmom #138
%u201CNow doesn%u2019t that meet all the criteria for illegally outing a CIA agent?%u201D
Tom Maguire #177:
“And it is an excellent bet that neither of these CIA officers told Libby that Plame%u2019s status was classified – if they had, Fitzgerald would have (or should have) mentioned that in his May 12 filing, rather than the post-Novak warning (and the description of the warning curiously omits the word %u201Cclassified%u201D as well).”
Now that we have it on the record that Libby was advised a full month before Novackula’s article, wouldn’t this really demonstrate that the SF-312 was violated? I think it does, but hey–no one else seems to. If not, then perhaps it’s just my desire to shove a violation of that form, down Victoria Tsoensing’s throat.