Kazuza

Fitz!

Fitz! Had to get that out of my system.

fitz

Gosh, I’m having all sorts of trouble. But here goes- FITZ!

Feingold up!

I’ll e-mail them all today.
I don’t understand with this failed Administration why Congressional Rs still cannot stand up to them.

Feingold– after the briefing yesterday, i am more convinced than ever that the program is illegal and the preznit misled the american people.

I have questions I’d like to see General Hayden asked:

1. Please define Congressional oversight of the Central Intelligence Agency. How will it work should you be confirmed as Director?

2. Please define the FISA Court’s role over NSA surveillance, under the law.

3. Is the NSA permitted to capture information — content and context — of the communications of American citizens within the United States?

4. How will you respond to an unlawful order from your superior, either Negroponte or Bush?

None of these is “classified” and none needs to be answered in closed session. Asking the views and understanding of an appointee is, in fact, the purpose of a confirmation hearing. Simply asking Hayden to describe how these processes work, or will work, or have worked, may expose his ignorance of the law and legal processes.

He picks up on Wyden’s line of his not being trustworthy. yay

And there’s a damn good reason the Administration of our draft-dodging, budget-busting ChickenHawk with Delusions of Grandeur doesn’t want any of these claims ending up in court

Because he’s already got smacked down for it, by the 4th Circuit Court no less, something I blogged about late last month

http://royallykranked.blogspot…..acked.html

From the 4-26-06 NY Times

Cleric Wins Appeal Ruling Over Wiretaps

An appellate court on Tuesday directed a lower court to consider statements by a Muslim cleric in northern Virginia that he had been illegally wiretapped under the warrantless eavesdropping program that President Bush authorized.

The ruling opened the door to what could be the first ruling by a federal court on whether information obtained under the program, operated by the National Security Agency, had been improperly used in a criminal prosecution.

********************

The cleric, Ali al-Timimi, who was sentenced to life in prison last year for inciting his Muslim followers to violence, is challenging his conviction because he says he suspects that the government failed to disclosed illegal wiretaps of his e-mail messages and telephone conversations.

************************

In an order released on Tuesday, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit did not rule on the merits of Mr. Timimi’s assertions about the N.S.A. program, but sent the case back to the federal trial court in Alexandria, Va., for a rehearing.

*************************

The appellate court gave the trial judge in the case, Leonie M. Brinkema, broad latitude, saying the trial court could “order whatever relief or changes in the case, if any, that it considers appropriate.”

**************************

Mr. Timimi’s case is the first to result in a rehearing on the challenges. The Justice Department did not oppose his motion to vacate his appeal and have the trial court consider the eavesdropping question. Department officials said they saw the appellate decision as largely procedural, but declined to discuss how the case might play out when the trial court rehears it.

****************************

“We’ll brief the court at the right time and advise the court appropriately,” a spokesman for the department, Bryan Sierra, said. “Whenever we have the opportunity to set the record straight, we’ll do so.”

*************************

But a lawyer for Mr. Timimi, Jonathan Turley, said the appellate order was a significant and “extraordinary step” because appellate courts did not generally order a rehearing in a criminal case while an appeal was pending.

“This is very good news for us, and we’re eager to go back to Judge Brinkema to explore these troubling issues,” Mr. Turley said in an interview.

It seems to me that trying to keep any of the warrantless spying on purely domestic communications out of the courtroom is a tad late now that the 4th Circuit has instructed Brinkema to take any measures she sees fit regarding the Govts case

W is making his power grabs at just the time he’s losing support of the public and his usual political allies at an ever more rapid clip

I don’t comment here much, but it’s absolutely one of my favorite sites to haunt, top notch legal analysis always gets my blood going, even though I’m not a lawyer

Excellent Job here all, the contributors and commenters alike

OT, but I just found this fantastic article on the web:

With some exceptions, the Washington Establishment is outraged by the president’s behavior. The reasons are varied, and they intertwine.

“He came in here and he trashed the place,” says Washington Post columnist David Broder, “and it’s not his place.”

Bill Galston, former deputy domestic policy adviser under Clinton and now a professor at the University of Maryland, says of the scandal that “most people in Washington believe that most people in Washington are honorable and are trying to do the right thing. The basic thought is that to concede that this is normal and that everybody does it is to undermine a lifetime commitment to honorable public service.”

Washingtonians can’t abide it that the rest of the country might think everyone here cheats and lies and abuses his subordinates the way the president has.

“This is our town,” says Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, the first Democrat to forcefully condemn the president’s behavior. “We spend our lives involved in talking about, dealing with, working in government. It has reminded everybody what matters to them. You are embarrassed about what this president’s behavior says about the White House, the presidency, the government in general.”

And many are offended that the principles that brought them to Washington in the first place are now seen to be unfashionable or illegitimate.

Muffie Cabot, who as Muffie Brandon served as social secretary to President and Nancy Reagan, regards the scene with despair. “This is a demoralized little village,” she says. “People have come from all over the country to serve a higher calling and look what happened. They’re so disillusioned. The emperor has no clothes. Watergate was pretty scary, but it wasn’t quite as bad as this.”

THE LYING OFFENDS THEM. For both politicians and journalists, trust is the coin of the realm. Without trust, the system breaks down.

“This is a contractual city,” says Chris Matthews, who once was a top aide to the late Speaker of the House Thomas P. “Tip” O’Neill. “There are no factories here. What we make are deals. It’s a city based on bonds made and kept.” The president, he went on, “has broken and shattered contracts publicly and shamefully. He violates the trust at the highest level of politics.”

Matthews, now host of MSNBC’s “Hardball,” also says, “There has to be a functional trust by reporters of the person they’re covering. The President lies knowing that you know he’s lying. It’s brutal and it subjugates the person who’s being lied to. I resent deeply being constantly lied to.”

Certainly this president is not the first president to lie. But the scope and circumstances of his lying enrage Establishment Washington.

“His behavior,” says Lieberman, “is so over the edge. What is troubling is the deceit, the failure to own up to it. Before this is over the truth must be told.”

“When the president spoke last January I believed him,” says a House Representative (R-PA) “I didn’t think he would have the audacity, the lack of integrity to mislead the American people . . . but then he pervasively lied […]. He was blatantly, intentionally untruthful. … “

And the wife of a Democratic senator who declined to comment spoke on condition of anonymity. “We take the issue of perjury seriously here,” she said. Her husband, she said, thinks the senior administration official “lacks character and commitment. He’s very clear about it.”

Former Democratic senator Sam Nunn, long a powerful player on the Washington scene, feels it is impossible to lead without trust. “People say that moral authority is not needed . . . but the trust factor is the single most important factor of leadership whether it be for a minister, a CEO, a senator or a president.”

Presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin knows something about the office and “the authority, the esteem, the respect in which the presidency is held. When you take the precious resource of a president’s ability to mobilize people and employ that resource into a campaign of deception . . . when you lie to the country, you are using your authority to undermine the presidency.”

Certainly the Washington insiders have their own interests at heart. Whenever a new president comes to town, he will be courted assiduously by those whose livelihoods depend on access to power. But over the years of this administration, that interest in being close to the White House has diminished. Many people’s self-interest has been overtaken by their disgust and outrage.

Even those who have to deal with or publicly support the administration do so grudgingly. They say that regardless of whether his fortunes improve, this president has essentially lost the Washington Establishment for good.

Wow, they’re finally getting it.

All the outrage about the lies that led us to war in Iraq, the maiming of 20,000 US soldiers, the deaths of another 2,500, the deaths of more than 30,000 Iraqis (a conservative estimate), the ginned up Niger uranium claim, aluminum tubes, mobile biological weapons labs, the outing of a CIA NOC working on Iranian nuclear issues, the smearing of Paul O’Neill, Richard Clarke, Joe Wilson, Valerie Wilson, et. al. …

Or not.

The above was not from some good parallel universe, but is adapted from this evil one, from a story written by Sally Quinn for WaPo in 1998, regarding Bill Clinton lying about a blow job. The reaction of the time seems more hysterical than ever, especially when followed by a president so constitutionally corrupt that even conservatives like bob Barr are becoming alarmed.

We have seen the evil parallel universe, where consensual (if adulterous) blow jobs are more outrageous than lying a country into war, and it is the Washington DC press corps.

Hayden: I am not a liar, so there.

Sorry, forgot to post the original source for the above quotes:

In Washington, That Letdown Feeling
By Sally Quinn
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, November 2, 1998; Page E01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..110298.htm

Feingold– have you ever had any doubts about not following FISA?

Hayden– sure, it was not done lightly. I did not think it was illegal.

MoveOn is also sending emails to their constituents asking them to call their Senate Intelligence member and ask them to vote against the nomination.

We have a full-court press on, gang. Send a copy of Christy’s post or a link to it to everyone of your progressive peeps and get them on it.

CBL – CBL – I am still here, although I was kazuza-ing the new thread.

I guess I am still trying to figure out what ATT is arguing: 1. whether the info is not discoverable b/c it is proprietary, or 2. that they want it under seal.

They’re very different arguments. First one I don’t see going anywhere if the documents relate to the suit, which of course they do. Second one seems “reasonable” if they truly are “trade secrets,” which of course seems like a really big stretch.

Unless all corp. docs are “proprietary,” which is just silly.

Feingold–what is the limit to the article 2 power? The American people have expressed themselves with the laws that are on the books. No one can force you to break the law.

And thank you Russ, for being VERY direct with Hayden about his misleading statements of the past.

ADD to my previous comment that all Senate Dems should be asked to get behind Feingold, both on his problems with Hayden now, and on the issue of censure. It’s well past time to censure based on what we are seeing from Hayden and from the NSA.

wow, Hayden hiding behind the preznit’s, AG’s, and other lawyers’s skirts.

For a sterling example of fine natural leadership in action look no further than Russ Feingold.
‘ Cometh the hour – cometh the man’
Russ has been Fitzadelic lately and we must give honor where honor is due. Thank you RF.
Now I’m no parchment worshiper and have a lot of time for George Mason who would not sign any charter for slavers but the constitution is an enlightement document that contains some vital condensed legal reasons that seperate a society of equals from society of slaves and slave-drivers.
To shit on the stars and wipe yr arse with the bars is one thing but to wipe yr arse with all our most basic and inalienable civil and human rights on it is quiet another and as surely a declaration of war as ever there was one.
I would kill anyone who lays there hands on me to govern me in any pre Magna Carta dark ages state of fear and loathing.
The policeman who arrests me in the name of this dark state will be struck by me in the name of liberty.

Every time Bush mouths off about what the spying program is really doing, my immediate reaction is “why should I believe you?”

Never trust the word of known liars. You can’t be sure they’re lying, but you have no reason to believe they’re telling the truth.

Regarding questions, I would like to see a thorough grilling centered on the 4th Amendment, since Hayden appears to be either ignorant of it or merely disdains it.

I would also like Hayden to explain why bypassing the FISA courts is necessary. The only possible reason I can see is to avoid oversight and accountability.

Bruce Fein said that?

Remeber when you kept blogging about the drip drip drip reacing a tipping point.

Missy, it seems you will be proven right.

Bruce Fein really said that?

Weather report: Snowing on the mountaintops of hell today

One of my senators – Mikulski – is on the committee. I sent her an e-mail, hoping one of her aides might get it to her – I can’t fax because I don’t want to use my firm’s letterhead on a personal matter.

I’ve been pretty busy today, so haven’t been able to listen as much as I would like, but am disgusted with the GOP “questioning,” which is more along the lines of “you’re a really good guy, aren’t you?” Dems seem to be the only ones at all interested in getting real answers. Listening to Feingold now.

(It’s so startling me to see my name and my comments in one of Christy’s or Jane’s posts – in a good way – and I feel honored!)

We have seen the evil parallel universe, where consensual (if adulterous) blow jobs are more outrageous than lying a country into war, and it is the Washington DC press corps.

Your off by a factor of evil. The outrageousness takes place in this universe. The EPU is where truth wills out, and hummers don’t get anyone’s knickers in a twist (in a bad way that is).

Redshift #128, previous thread:
Dude, you should take a page out of your own lecture on Blog etiquette and the expression of proper gratitude to those working this game.

Leopold and Madsen, are in the trenches, fighting the good fight and deserve significant appreciation for their efforts, very much like the hosts of this site.

Just because they don’t deliver what you want when you want it, does not make them notoriously unreliable.

Unity is power…

(man, how they have twisted the laws and the Constitution.)

Feingold– the body of law you are using is weak.

why wasn’t the program briefed til yesterday?

Hayden: it was to protect sources and methods.

Fein surely has become a stand up, go to guy!

Feingold: cites the law re oversight. what was it about this program that is so different other than it’s political impact?

Hayden: dunno. I wanted to tell everybody in the committee!

looseheadprop at 25 — I know. If I hadn’t heard it with my own ears — and how disgusted he was at the Bush Administration when he said it — I wouldn’t have believed it myself. Between him being this pissed and Bob Barr, I’m beginning to think that hell, indeed, may have frozen over completely. If those two can put partisanship aside for an issue they consider to be a constitutional crisis, then what’s the excuse for Pat Roberts and all — beyond “we like our party power, thanks”?

whoops– my words re Fein were supposed to be at the end… things are surely flaky today!

Anne,
Mikulski won’t say sh*t if she has a mouthful,makes me sick from time to time,if you can’t tell.Won’t stand up to Roberts,won’t help Feingold,seemingly a DSCC play it safe Dem
Anyone tired of C-span,here’s a interesting film sent to me today;
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

angie #22: wow, Hayden hiding behind the preznit’s, AG’s, and other lawyers’s skirts.

No big surprise there, I’m afraid. My senator, John Warner, who used to have some integrity, was saying a couple of weeks ago that Hayden shouldn’t be held responsible if he did illegal things based on legal advice from Gonzales and others, since he’s “not a lawyer.”

Well, guys, he should be held responsible because that’s what being in charge means, and Gonzales should be impeached and disbarred if he advised him that programs were legal when they weren’t. But apparently you’d rather have a big game of pass-the-buck, where somehow neither one is responsible.

Christy, noticed a typo: used in any courtroom conte4xt

EPU: “You’re off by a factor of evil. The outrageousness takes place in this universe. The EPU is where truth wills out, and hummers don’t get anyone’s knickers in a twist (in a bad way that is).”

I know, I know, but “We have seen the Evil Parallel Universe and it is us,” seemed an inappropriate conclusion in one of the few places where the evil ones don’t hang.

I think the argument must be put more succinctly:

Any evidence gotten through illegal means cannot be used to convict terrorists. Please assure us that phone tap information has not been obtained illegally.

Bush’s methods (illegally obtained evidence, torture) ASSURES that any actual terrorist arrested WILL GET OFF THE HOOK because of the way the evidence is obtained. Bush is working hard in the terrorists corner, and the idiot doesn’t even know it.

My question has to do with the Keith Olbermann broadcast that C&L posted on May 6:

Gen. Hayden [indignant]: “Just to be very clear … mmkay… and believe me, if there’s any Amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it’s the Fourth. Alright? And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. The constitutional standard is ‘reasonable’”

C&L Link

I wish one of the Senators would ask Hayden to tell us again, his interpretation of the 4th Amendment at the hearings for all to hear.

EPU: “You’re off by a factor of evil. The outrageousness takes place in this universe. The EPU is where truth wills out, and hummers don’t get anyone’s knickers in a twist (in a bad way that is).”

I know, I know, but “We have seen the Evil Parallel Universe and it is us,” seemed an inappropriate conclusion here in one of the few places where the evil ones don’t hang.

sent my faxes off

EPU, thanks for indulging me, guess I’m just enjoying the thrill of the hunt in trying to ferret out all this stuff

used to do this years ago when I would be on Flight Attendant Furlough (annual 3-6 week layoff)again and again for Pillsbury, Madison & Sutro in SF – ironically AT&T is being represented by a Pillsbury firm, don’t know if it’s different, or the current morph of PillMAdSut. there was no ‘Control F’ then – just a bunch of us in some suite with highlighters and paperclips – loved it !

JGabriel – In the unfortunately Orwellian world we live in, We are the evil ones.

DMM # 32 and anyone else accessing ‘pentagonstrike’

As compelling as that clip is, there is significant discussion now about that attack as being manipulated as a PsyOp ‘honeypot’

Translation: Fake controversy stoked to be reconciled in favour of the forces behind 9/11.
(i.e. footage will later confirm a 757 crash at this site and mint’tin foil hats’ for all espousing further scrutiny)

All interested in 9/11 Truth should focus on the collapse of WTC 7.

Examination of that footage will be impossible to spin.

This wll sound funny, but I’ve always had the feeling that there is something else going on with Roberts.

Maybe something he has been briefed on has him really scared, maybe he really thinks he is part of Team AMerica protecting us all from attack and he feels that doing things that are personally repugnant is some kind of sacrifice he makes for his country,
Roberts is not stupid, and he often gets angry and seems to channel that anger into defending the Wh.

Maybe it’s a “my country right or wrong” kinda thing, but I sense some heavy duty back story.

I can’t explain it, just a vibe.

I suspect if we knew what it was though, it would not seem justified. I think he has gone down some slippery slope and does not even realize he can never get back on the right path.

GO RUSS!

Hmmmmmmm – where have I heard that, “all we have to do is be reasonable” not actually get a warrant, excuse before?

Surely Cheney and Rumsfeld remember which arguments LOST before, don’t they? NSA counsel? ANYONE?

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/…..;invol=297

United States v. United States District Court (the Keith case – after Judge Keith).
On the basis of the Attorney General’s affidavit and the sealed exhibit, the Government asserted that the surveillance was lawful, though conducted without prior judicial approval, as a reasonable exercise of the President’s power (exercised through the Attorney General) to protect the national security. The District Court held that the surveillance violated the Fourth Amendment,

See, ther it is – the argument that everyone was reasonble – prudent – not being bad boys.

The determination of this question requires the essential Fourth Amendment inquiry into the “reasonableness” of the search and seizure in question, and the way in which that “reasonableness” derives content and meaning through reference to the warrant clause.

WARRANT CLAUSE? Hayden stopped before he got to that part.

Inherent in the concept of a warrant is its issuance by a “neutral and detached magistrate.” Coolidge v. New Hampshire, supra, at 453; Katz v. United States, supra, at 356. The further requirement of “probable cause” instructs the magistrate that baseless searches shall not proceed.

So – like the FISA judges said, the main diff between reasonable and probable cause is who is beign addressed – the 4th tells the executive, don’t bother asking if it’s not reasonable, then tells the judiciary not to issue the warrant if there isn’t probably cause to believe that the info being sought is reasonably necessary for an Executive Branch function.

These Fourth Amendment freedoms cannot properly be guaranteed if domestic security surveillances may be conducted solely within the discretion of the Executive Branch.

Note to Hayden, Gonzales, whoever – DOJ is PART (and boy are the part these days) of the Executive Branch. One or one hundred legal opinions makes no difference on that front.

The Fourth Amendment does not contemplate the executive officers of Government as neutral and disinterested magistrates.

. . .
It may well be that, in the instant case, the Government’s surveillance . . . was a reasonable one which readily would have gained prior judicial approval. But this Court “has never sustained a search upon the sole ground that officers reasonably expected to find evidence of a particular crime and voluntarily confined their activities to the least intrusive means consistent with that end.”

Christy:

You really should use the acronym DCIA to describe the job for which Hayden has been nominated.

There is no longer the position of DCI in the U.S. government.

It was eliminated when the office of Director of National Intelligence was established.

The DCI was responsible for the overall co-ordination of the 15 (now 16) agencies that make up the U.S.intelligence community.

Now Negroponte has that responsibility. The job of DCI (and the title) is no longer in existence.

Since Porter Goss’ abrupt exit from the Agency, you have constantly used the wrong acronym.

Anne – you deserve the kudos, because your pointed questions go straight to the heart of the operations of the agencies, and the precedents set by Hayden’s previous behavior with regard to Congressional Oversight. And TeddySan Fran #10 futhers on the line of oversight, and constitutional imperatives. I’m on the phone to my Senators now.

BTW – Hayden admitting that he didn’t seek proper independent legal counsel on the NSA surveillance tells us everything we need to now about his plans regarding future Congressional Oversight. Shorter Hayden: FISA’s for sissies.

Hayden’s talking about the matrix…

this whole thing is eerie.

Redd
Bruce Fein, Bob Barr, and a few days ago there was a link in one of the comments to a right wing libertatian suggesting that they should make (temporary) common cause with the left wing progressives because the two outwings had more in common on civil rights, privacy and the rule of law than they had differrnces over gay marriage, guns and flag burning.

These are strange times we live in

Hayden: “I feel like I was heading a national agency.”

I wasn’t really, but I felt like it. I played one on TV.

(I’m beginning to think that our best reason to oppose this guy is his stupidity.)

mk ultramaroon #28:
Whatever, dude. If the story pans out, I’ll gladly eat my words. You’re welcome to disagree, but there’s no “blog etiquette” saying “don’t speak badly of people that someone else likes,” or we’d never have any discussion at all.

OT — re: Karl Rove…
I’ve been following Plamegate since the summer, scouring news and blogs daily, and have found that Rove generally seems to operate from the sshadows. I’ve seen few instances where he was publically visible, yet the week after his ‘possible’ indictment, he’s publicly very visible giving ‘boilerplate’ speeches at the AEI and the Hill.

IMHO

I think he actually WAS indicted, but a lid is being held in place…

Sorry if my musings distract from the thread itself, which is entirely worth devoting to brainstorming questions that will pin the weasels down.

He started falling apart under DiFi’s questioning on “reasonableness” vs. “probable cause”. Feingold nails the coffin.

Good cop, bad cop. Works for me.

looseheadprop-
Maybe they have pictures of him doing something very bad.

leaks have a corrosive effect on the agency– Hayden.

wrong, cyborg. You have a corrosive effect on our rights.

Question for Hayden:

As you understand the Constitution’s unenumerated Article II authority claimed to be vested in the duties of the Civilian Chief of our Armed Forces: Does that claimed Article II authority give the President or his Attorney General the right to repudiate the century of precedent behind the Supreme Court’s ‘probable cause before a warrant and therefore a search is authorized’ interpretation of the Fourth Amendment’s single sentence?

OK, I’ve set my cynicism on this aside issue for 5 minutes and done what you asked. I’ve sent a brief, polite note to four of the senators on the committee.

It would be wonderful to discover my cynicism is misplaced. It would also be good to win the lottery.

“It’s a black fly in your Chardonnay
It’s a death row pardon two minutes too late
Isn’t it ironic…don’t you think”

Oh, and

Yeah Anne, way to go!

ex-gov at 43 — I can’t help it. In my mind it is still DCI — but you are correct. SIGH Maybe I’m just old, but I’ll try to remember to use a correct acronym from now on.

After spewing platitudes about the constitution and the law and the 4th amendment and Hayden stating that everything he did at the NSA was lawful without saying anything, every one of the Repub Senators and the DINOs like DiFi & Rockefeller will say good job, oh what a qualified candidate and confirm.

I have sent a handwritten letter to Sen. Feinstein who I plan to vote against at the primary. But like she cares :)

DCI, DCIA – we all know what Christy’s talking about; maybe we’re all old. *g*

Mikulski drubs Woolsey, Deutch, Tenet(slam dunk) and Goss. Cites the cole, wtc 1, wtc 2 and Iraq.

sounds like it’s time for a little forensics work over at the Federalist Society – remember they had some rather pointed pieces on “reasonableness” when this story originally broke in december

not to be confused with the wonderful group we have here -
The Redderalist Society

Call me a party-pooper, but what is the evidence the Dems have any desire to take on President Bush over the constitutional issues?

It seems to me the Dems are bending-over-backwards making promises not to hold Bush accountable for violating the Constitution.

The Dems seem to be saying that if they can take care of their interest groups by attaining majority status in Congress their content to let Bush shred the Constitution.

Carl — you can’t put all the Dems in one basket. Feingold’s censure proposal is but one example, and the netroots is another. And the more we push, the more the rest of them get the message that this is important to us — and, thus, ought to be important to them if they want to keep their jobs.

This guy is my cousin and a very able attorney as well. He is suing Dubya Monkeypants:

http://www.atlantamagazine.com/article.php?id=218

I had to bust on him about the Anderson Cooper reference…but he does have a resemblance!

So, General Magoo just essentially said FISA was unworkable because complying with it might reveal sources and methods.

Y’know ANY sort of lawful due process poses risks.

Whata dope. And, they’re gonna let him off the hook.

Mikulski: why did you not request a change to FISA?

Hayden: I thought it was legal. Any attempt to change the legislation would lead to revelations about the program to the enemy.

Milquetoast Bayh up.

lhp and others– thanks.

Mary – I have to tell you that I am in awe of the depth and breadth of your knowledge and your research skills; it blows me away, and I’ve learned so much.

Maybe I’m not the only one who feels like this is the government’s version of a game show. Here are all these senators, who presumably know all there is to know now about the NSA program, and they have to ask questions of the nominee, and frame those questions in ways that do not divulge what they do know. At the same time, I get the feeling that some of the questions are framed to force Hayden to have to decline to answer in public, which telegraphs that the question may provide clues to what was briefed.

Seems to me that someone who is touted as being as independent as Hayden would have done a more thorough job of checking the legality of what they were doing. And it makes me very uncomfortable to think that his pride – and perhaps the embarrassment of having wasted 1.2 billion dollars on “his” program – prevented him from instituting the ThinThread program, which seems to have had all the checks and balances in place.

CBL – If I let my mind wander, which of course I do, it may be that they are concerned about potential criminal liability. I know that under this admin that seems unlikely, but in theory, a judge sitting in a civil trial who sees criminal wrongdoing can refer (and perhaps is supposed to refer, as an officer of the court) it to the appropriate prosecuting authority. Discovery in civil cases is much broader than in criminal ones. Just something to think about. And a universe can dream.

ab initio @ 58: “I have sent a handwritten letter to Sen. Feinstein who I plan to vote against at the primary. But like she cares :)”

I’m with you. She’s been Miss Congeniality to the republicans on the Patriot act and privacy issues. I’ll vote for someone besides DiFi, too. In the general election there’s always a Green candidate.

angie- is that all Mikulski covered? I’m only getting the hearings by listening to NPR and missed some time. Thanks for the coverage!

angie: Feingold really got him to say he didn’t know what was different re: the briefing other than the politics?
Hungrycoyote – I wish one of the Senators would bring in the tape and a big screen and play it, all the while with an insert box of the 4th right there. Then put up the Keith case language about reasonability on the part of the Executive never being a replacement for getting a warrant.

Ann – here’s the sad part. It doesn’t take much research for someone with any legal training and just public records google access. How sad is that?

Feingold rocks. Specter is a weenie.

“…It’s going to be a long war…”

Hayden, it shouldn’t have been a f*cking war at all. This guy is signed on for Rumsfeld’s vision of The Long War and needs to be voted off the island. Gah.

My e-mail to Sen Wyden:

We are entering into what should be treated as nothing less than a constitutional crisis over warrantless data mining and illegal domestic spying on MILLIONS of U.S. citizens.

Gen. Hayden was in the midst of this. And there are indications that he will be complicit in further weakening the CIA, deferring to Negroponte and the Pentagon’s increasing role in intelligence; or even, like George Tenet, willing to take the blame for intelligence “failures” that are actually White House refusals to look at intelligence that doesn’t conform to their political liking.

Please hold him accountable for his complicity in the illegal actions of this administration.

Looseheadprop #47……was this the article you were referring to?

http://smirkingchimp.com/artic…..mp;order=0

Aggghhhh!!!!

More sports analogies by General Magoo.

“A regime that had cheated and lied before…a regime that cheated…”

Jeepers, Hayden, half the crap you just use to describe Saddam with is legitimately fits this administration.

Wonder how we find us a spook who can do some $$ checks on Hayden’s background. There must be a reason he’s got on such big kneepads for the POTUS.

As Director of the CIA, how do you propose to guard against the “politicization” of intelligence if the intelligence does not match policy makers’ expectations?

Bayh: re liberty, you’ve spoken about the burden of proof, probable cause… Isn’t that also the same standard as FISA?

Hayden: I’ll speak more about it in closed session. The analyst makes the decision in minutes and FISA does not work that way.

Bayh: Why not amend FISA?

Hayden: things have changed….

Hmm. Finally getting through the thread and I see the concern trolls are coming out. Now why would that be?

This route leads directly to summary rendition and detention in the Gulag of your worst nightmares until the eventual Kangaroo Tribunal for any unwitting American Citizen caught up in this rapid Witchhunt – or so the Bush administration would hope. It’s not very surprising to me, since fruits of the poison tree would clearly preclude all of this activity in a law enforcement context, but of course fighting terrorism with law enforcement is so 1999 and all.

They’re breaking the law the NSA because the law doesn’t apply to “War”. “Al Qaeda will win if we use quaint tools like Warrants and stuff”.

To which I say – Bull and Shit!

Are we not a nation of laws? Do we not still have a Constitution that guides those laws, even – and especially – during Wartime? If our Constitution can not protect us all during the most heated of times, it can’t protect us at all.

Vyan

Mary – I know it’s all out there, but you’re very good at (1) retrieving it and then (2) incorporating it into your posts, with excellent commentary.

I’m a paralegal in a law firm, but I do estate and trust work; I don’t do much/any Lexis/Westlaw research, so my skills in that area are nonexistent.

Mary– Hayden did not address the political part of Feingold’s question specifically. He just hemmed and hawed. It was sorta left hanging out there in the air like a big stinkbomb.

weeder– pretty much.

I have been in and out a lot today and had ‘puter issues too, sorry for the spotty coverage.

Bayh: The Human Sleeping Pill.

Called Feinstein’s and said: exposing Hayden’s ignorance of the 4th ammendment is a good start. Please don’t play footsie with him now. He refused to answer any of your questions on torture. Give him what he deserves – a NO vote on confirmation. The Constitution mentions democracy, and the republic. Doesn’t refer to fascism anywhere. Just a reminder, DiFi.

Wish one of my senators was on the committee.

Sophist 50
OT re: rove

I agree! rover’s recent spate of strutting about in public has been bothering me all week. Definitely not his style in the past.
I’m also assuming it must signal something’s happened.
I wonder if he knows he doesn’t have a lotta time to sneak around per normal, so is trying to jump-start some things before the noose tightens(?)

Remember that Rockefeller for months let Roberts get away with stonewalling any investigation of use of pre-war intel, until Reid had finally had enough and threw the Senate into closed session until Roberts et al agreed to a subcommittee to work out a schedule for an investigation.

Since then, of course, this WV doofus has again dropped the ball, allowing Roberts to again split the investigation in two parts and push off further anything that might hurt the WH. I can only imagine what Reid thinks of having this utter loser on his team, given what he apparently thinks of this administration and their agenda.

How does this Rockefeller clown keep getting elected? By all accounts, he is not very bright, and hasn’t much self-confidence because he knows himself he is basically an idiot.

You know he’s going to vote to approve Hayden.

Bruce Fein, Bob Barr, and Al Gore banded together some months ago in response to the initial NYT revelations on domestic surveillance to launch the Liberty Coalition. The idea was to emphasize the trans-ideological outrage over this imperial overreaching.

The coalition got brief, one-day-wonder media play, and I’ve heard nothing from or about it ever since.

Christy, did the subject of this coalition come up again on your conference call? I hate when strong starts like this come to nothing.

I am so embarrassed by Pat Roberts, Brownback, Ryun and so on…I’ve grown weary and paranoid about emailing them anymore. Is it the bases in Fort Reilly, KS or recent HUD funds in Topeka that Roberts recently announced? Something is not right with him. Roberts was proudly kissing Jr.’s butt when the trip to Kansas State University happened. It was sickening. :-(

Interesting article in the new Harper’s (”A Stab in the Back”). Positing that “a great nation needs formidable enemies,” and that, given that a nation NEVER concedes the possibility of defeat at the hands of a foreign power, the ONLY candidates for “formidable enemies” are the very citizens OF the nation who dare criticize the official line.

The author recounts the entire (mostly right-wing) history of of blaming the “back-stabbers” in this country, ending with the considerable energy expended in this area by the Bush administration.

Such is why they are compelled to spy on US at every turn. WE are “the enemy.”

Bayh: Why not amend FISA?
Hayden: things have changed . . .

Bob Dylan: I used to care, but things have changed . . .

WOOHOO! A two-fer! This is about both Hayden and the Plame case:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001398.php

What Inman shared with some of us — and this was a repeated assertion from comments that I have confirmed that he made in Austin — is that the person in Patrick Fitzgerald’s bull’s eye is Richard Armitage.

Link is from Think Progress-

Conservative Scholar/Federalist Society Boardmember Robert Levy – general comments about illegality of NSA

Therer is a pdf of a debate out there btw this guy and a guy named Rivkin – Christy sent it to G Greenwald back on 12/28 – but couldn’t for the life of me make the link work
Fed Society Guy

Went out to see the sunshine and I missed Feingold. Damn! Sounds like he did the right thing. I love that man.

Other than the obvious ability to scale the heights of plausible deniability, is there some reason why this NSA activity is broken into several “programs”? How many are there?

It’s just so ironic that all this BS is coming from the guys who hate lawyers. Give me a break!

Republicans using federal agencies (IRS) to attack the NAACP. Apparently Jerry Flawed-Well and God’s Mouthpiece, Pat Robertson get a pass on the political overstepping accusations.

Can we just merge the RNC and the rest of the government together. These Republi-hacks are bigger party apparatchiks than the Breznhev crowd.

Notice who signed on..Nice and moderate Susan Collins of Maine and Joe “Dead Intern In My Office” Scarborough…and a few other repellent luminaries.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/…..C2903.html

-GSD

A group of Roots’ers just came from a meeting with one of our Senators’ staffers (summary soon). He communicated to us that faxing is one of the most effective things we can do on an issue.

So, as Atrios has said: obey Christy!

Rayne’s jeepers in 77 – DITTO!
Re: that crap about making the decision in minutes – HELLO – that is what the 3 day freebie is all about. But you still have to go tell the magistrate/judge what you did to be safe. Also – just how freaking many al-Qaeda to US calls are there? BTW – what is the definition of terrorist? Greenpeace? PETA? United Against the War? Apparently the Quakers were considered enough of a threat by the Pentagon that they actually went so far as to infiltrate them – if someone is calling a Quaker is that a terrorist call? How do we know? Because you say so? Didn’t you also say you were following FISA? When are you dissembling and when are you telling the truth?

looseheadprop @ 12:15 pm (#42) – I suspect if we knew what it was though, it would not seem justified. I think he has gone down some slippery slope and does not even realize he can never get back on the right path.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this is one of the reasons I think that the use of secrecy should be kept to a minimum in government. We’re essentially dependent on the critical thinking skills and honesty of a handful of people who are overseeing these programs. We are also counting on them to make the sorts of value judgements that should really be our choice as citizens. Is safety from terrorism more important than the Fourth Amendment? I don’t think it is. I just wish someone had asked before they decided for us.

Feingold up again!

write the members of the intelligence committee and your senator… well, my senator is a member of the committe, and I’ve gotten no satisfaction from his tepid responses to prior messages.

Laura Rozen my be right on track, she mentions the STAFFERS should be reading…

now I agree, our elected officials are supposed to represent us, but perhaps we need to LOBBY them, through staff???

My Senator is flipping Pat Roberts! Wanna write something for me and I’ll send it?

“Christy sent it to G Greenwald back on 12/28″

After I first posted it here ; )

Both Wyden and Feingold did a fabulous job today, imho. Kudos to them!

Called my Senator, Kit Bond (feh). The staffer I spoke to, says (rough quote) No evidence that NSA has phone records, blah blah blah. Hearing closed because ‘matter of national security’ blah blah blah. Senator Bond has met Gen. Hayden and is supporting his nomination ‘right now’ because he’s such a nice guy blah blah blah.

I almost feel sorry for the little Replibot who spoke with me, she sure got a piece of my mind. Doubt it will do any good, but I made it clear that I AM a MO voter, and I DO NOT approve. Besides, Kit Bond is one of the dimmest bulbs (amidst strenous competition) in the Senate.

Both Wyden and Feingold did a fabulous job today, imho. Kudos to them!

Kudos to you and your compadres, Prof Foland @ 95!

OregonDave – other Dylan: The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
Re: wanting the President to have war powers (which btw – see Milligan – don’t change things) – why don’t the Rethugs ask that Iraq be declared an actual war? Or lessee – how about the al-Qaeda war. Doesn’t that put us at war with the world bc you just never know where an al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc. operative or sympathizer or empathizer or a guy who went to school with a guy who lived next to a guy who sat on a bus with an operative? Hey – we’re tough. World War it is. Let me just make a few changes to “world without end, Amen” and we can even use it in church. “war without end, Amen, Amen”
Anne – you and I are compatriots. Estate planning used to be a big chunk of my bread and butter (ask me about GRITS, GRATS, GRUTS, CRATS Generations Skipping Transfer Trusts, etc. – uh, second thoughts – please don’t *g*). Now I’m just in-house on business stuff, and more business than legal, so I don’t do LEXIS etc. either. When I was in lawschool decades back though, I did have a gig writing headnotes for cases for a mineral law lexis subset called coalex.

Open session now over. They’ve just retreated into the Cone Of Silence.

sheesh, Christy — for some reason double posted again… please delete 102!

Levin’s DC office is very banal and blase about this. I’m pissed off, still can’t reach a local rep.

Sic ‘em, gang.

Here’s the Fed Society Debate I mentioned upthread if anyone’s interested -
Thanks Cozumel
loved Kitty Cozumel’s latest posted pic by the way

Fed Soc Debate

Professor Foland – on target. Faxes get read immediately, unlike emails. Can’t wait to hear about your Senate visit!

What Cujo said in 97.
It is why we need a non-partisan approach too and not someone who is in the DOD chain of command under Rummy and pals with Cheney and Negroponte. I don’t see where, although he said he disagreed with Feith, he made any EFFORT to do anything to insure that his countervailing opinion was passed on to Congress. We need someone like that poor FBI agent in the Moussaoui case who made (I can’t remember the ACTUAL number, so discount for that) something like 70 emails or other contacts trying to get his point across and get approvals. What’s that guy doing? He needs a job under the bigtop.
BTW – my Sen is McConnell who let me know that even my contacts to him about the Feingold censure measure could threaten national security and don’t I understand that but-for the “terrorist surveillance program” the blow torch guys would have wreaked havoc upon our nation. Three pages single spaced of what kind of idiot am I? It has motivated me to start a Letter to the Editor to send to the Herald Leader and Courier Journal to let him know what kind of idiot I am – the kind that graduated from Big Blue thankyouverymuch.

peachimp @ 1:12 pm (#88) – Might want to tell him that what he says he did in secret session doesn’t impress you. What you see in public is a rubber stamp with legs.

Breaking CNN….

Bell South demands FULL retraction from USA Toady on the pnone records thing. Whoa

Mary at 111 — that is SO annoying. I went to college with Mitch McConnell’s daughter (who is a lovely person, btw) and met him a coupla times on parent’s weekend and such. He was much nicer before ambition became the sole driving force of his existence. Back then, you could actually have a conversation with the man — now, he’s just a bloviating butthead. SIGH There must be something in the Senate water coolers…

Just wanted to thank one and all for live blogging & providing great analysis as always!
Spent most of my work day @ Firedoglake.

cnn just profiled Lamont and his ad with Kos and then on to Lieberman and wolfie kindly reminds all those out in teeveeland that Joey is still “way, way ahead in the polls………..”

yeah, Christy, it’s POWERade.

cbl #92:
Conservative Scholar/Federalist Society Boardmember Robert Levy – general comments about illegality of NSA

Therer is a pdf of a debate out there btw this guy and a guy named Rivkin – Christy sent it to G Greenwald back on 12/28 – but couldn’t for the life of me make the link work
Fed Society Guy

Rivkin would be David Rivkin, formerly of the Reagan and Bush I Justice Depts. He was on NPR’s “To The Point” last night, making the insane argument that since the illegal wiretapping program has been leaking like a sieve, the fact that we haven’t heard anything about its being used for political purposes proves that isn’t happening. Because if it was, it would have been leaked.

I am not exaggerating one iota; that was his exact argument.

I think the host and the other participant were too stunned to ask the obvious “couldn’t you have said that two weeks ago about the phone records?”

Oh, and he also dismissed the opinion of his opponent in this discussion about whether the program could be effective because said opponent didn’t think it was legal. Apparently in his mind that automatically disqualifies you to judge whether it’s effective or not.

He’s a complete tool.

Just got home from work and called my Sen. Wyden’s office. The assistant answering the phone sounded busy, so hopefully they’re getting a lot of calls. Now to go back and read what I’ve missed.

More for Hayden:
If the Attorney General told you that an Executive Order of the President to create files on all gays was legal, would you do it? How about to create files on all Jews? How about to create files on all anti-war group members? If the AGen told you that an Executive Order from the President that you have CIA operatives covertly kill Americans on American soil was legal, would you comply? Is there any Order from the President that you can conceive of that you would refuse to fulfill as an illegal order if the Atty Gen assured you it was legal?
If we don’t need warrants for NSA surveillance, can we do away with them for Policemen as well? Can we do away with arrest warrants? Can we do away with the right of American’s to a trial? To be represented by counsel? How much of the Constitution can you disregard on behalf of the President if the AG gives you an private opinion?

New thread,and I rule the Fitz!

Shorter Wyden: “You (Hayden) broke the law when you failed to keep the full Intelligence Committee informed.”

Shorter Roberts: “That’s OK, General, you talked to those of us (R-XX) who actually count.”

Off to fax my e-mail to Wyden . . . with added thank you for the above.

This wll sound funny, but I’ve always had the feeling that there is something else going on with Roberts.

Roberts is a Nazgûl. One of the Nine Dark Lords of the Senate. He protects evil in White House.

Wayne Allard
Kit Bond
Tom Coburn
Thad Cochran
John Cornyn
James Inhofe
Pat Roberts
Jeff Sessions
Ted Stevens

Roberts as far as I can tell… Is their captian.

http://www.senate.gov/legislat…..vote=00249

Done. Tried calling Mikulski, my senator, but phones busy. Good sign maybe. Wrote her an email. Asked her to ask Hayden if Bush or the Constitution is the source of our law. Does the committee meet tomorrow?

J Gabriel, that quote was about Bill Clinton, wasn’t it? According to Trapper John at TNH: ‘They bristled when Bill Clinton showed up in town fresh from Little Rock. “He came in here and he trashed the place, and it’s not his place,” said David Broder — the Establishment’s Establishmentarian — to Sally Quinn (who’s even more Establishment than Broder).’

What, are you crazy? These guys are tracking everything including this, and you think there won’t be reprisals? We’re all busted, in the hoosegow without warrants, and “disappeared!”

To Gen. Hayden:
“It’s the CONSTITUTION, Stupid!”

I wish someone would hand him a copy of the 4th Amendment and make him read it OUT LOUD, followed up by asking about probable cause.

Stipulating as known to all that this country possesses the technology to perform the total monitoring of phone calls and internet requests;

Therefore stipulating that Al Quaeda (and any other terrorist groups) are also aware of this already;

Why does the administration persist in declaring this (already universally known) knowledge to be dangerous to the security of the nation, and so covered by offical secrets and not to be disclosed, discussed, or reported on? (Note: I fully acknowledge it would be not in the nations’ interests to disclose the details of the hardware design and software algorithms used, since by Godels’ Theoremn we know that given any known algorithm it is possible to devise inputs which will break it, i.e. the terrorists will with that level of detail know exactly how to avoid observation)

Why does the administration persist also in declaring it to be illegal to leak or report on the various warrantless NSA tapping schemes when it is already a matter of law that it is not illegal to reveal (possibly) illegal activity, and further it is also already illegal to use offical secrets to cover up such illegal activity?

SEN: General Hayden, can you confirm that no Democratic House or Senate candidates have had their phone records analyzed by the NSA with this program?

That’s the question I’d like to see.

I sent this to my Senator on the Intelligence Committee (Mikulski) today….

After listening to highlights of today’s testimony by General Hayden, I have to say I’m not all that assured that the laws of the land are not being violated by the NSA. He may have said that “not one additional photon or pixel” would be collected than what was needed to monitor potential terroroists but…

He has no way of knowing his is successor at NSA subscribes to that principle.

I would read aloud his statement and ask: “Do you have any knowledge to support or refute the contention that your successor at NSA has been abiding by this principle?”

I would also ask General Hayden: Would you consider it appropriate to use the wiretapping capabilities of the “Terrorist Surveillance Network” to gather data on domestic traitors?

(If No) – So if the president says “Mr. XYZ in Baltimore has comitted treason and we need to find out who he is talking too” you would tell him what?

(If Yes) – So domesting traitors are equivalent to terrorists as far as your are concerned. So who decides if a person is a traitor? Do you consider Jack Murtha to be a traitor? How about reporters who reveal information that makes this administration look bad?

It is irrelevant what questions are asked of Hayden, a guy who swears an oath to uphold the Constitution, yet does not seem to be aware of its clauses and confuses that oath with unquestioned loyalty to a mere man.

The purpose of this ‘intelligence’ on 200m Americans that the NSA dare not use in any court of law because of its questionable constitutional validity relating to its method of procurement is not difficult to surmise regardless of what Rivkin says.

Hayden is unlikely to provide categorical answers to any question on this issue even in closed session because he confuses the interests of the Presidential office with that of the country.

Meanwhile, these Keystone cops have not a clue re the whereabouts of a well known face sitting atop a 6′5 frame, possibly carrying a dialysis machine, wanted dead or alive beyond the fact that he is not hiding under the Oval office desk.

“General, as you know, two keys are required to fire a nuclear weapon.

“That’s the separation of powers, General, and the same principle is enshrined in the Constitution.

“It’s all well and good for you to say we should trust you not to abuse your power.

“But before the NSA or the CIA fires a nuclear weapon into the private life of an American citizen, it has to get a court to issue a warrant — to turn that other key.”

Feingold!

Emailed Russ yesterday to thank him for slapping Spectre down again. Does my heart good.

Thank you, Senator. I’m depressed now. I’ve been hearing enough right-wing gloating about this, already. I can’t for the life of me understand how this motion failed 96-3. It seems like there’s got to be an explanation for so much Democratic inaction on this.
Feingold fought but Feingold lost,
But ‘least he kept his sacred pact.
Ninety-six ignored the cost
Of keeping on the Patriot Act.

Of course Oceania has WMDs. It’s always had them. That’s why we’re at war.

===”Hello, and welcome to Missouri for Feingold!

My name is Dan, and you may remember me from such blogs as http://russfeingold.blogspot.com “