Politics does indeed make strange…sorry I can’t say it, my fingers stand in rebellion. But I must say that I heartily agree with the President and his merry band of unattractive whities when it comes to the issue of border security. In his speech last night the Panty Sniffer in Chief talked about the horrible problem posed by the current border situation. Talk about your terrorist threats. What? You surprised? Even David Neiwert agrees with me:
Why, if post-9/11 border security is such a suddenly serious concern, aren’t we sending the Guard to the Canadian border? — It is, after all our longest and most porous border, and its many open spots do not entail dangerous and potentially lethal desert crossings. Perhaps more to the point, the one terrorist who did try to sneak into the USA with explosives as part of a plot to attack a major metropolitan area was caught on the Canadian border.
Ah well. We’re not accustomed to logic from this president anyway, especially when it’s a twofer: a good photo op and rescuing your poll standings with the base are all in the offing. Especially if you can do it with military troops in the picture. Too bad about those cuts in the Border Patrol staffing last year.
This has nothing at all to do with race, and to prove it we must immediately build a wall around Canada. Perhaps the lactose intolerant will be wiling to take up arms and man the gates to stem the tide of unpasteurized cheese.
I also want to point out that per Glenn Greenwald, the authoritarian cultists who have valiantly contorted to excuse the president as he tortured, bombed, executed, snooped and shredded the constitution over the past five years have finally hit the wall and discovered the one thing they are not willing to defend him on — letting more brown people into the country who will most assuredly just pee in the pool.
We all have our limits, after all.
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Fitz!!!
Fitz 2!
Fitz we need you
Kittz
I love the smell of DumpyWhiteMenBloviating in the morning!
What possessed them to book this panel? Is there NO one else whose opinion is worthwhile?
Phone call for Mr. Indapoole. Phone call for Mr. Indapoole. First initials: “I P”. Hey everybody! “I P Indapoole!”
:-)
Great post, Jane!
p.s. Blankley needs a new tailor… watch out folks, he’s gonna blow!
I love the smell of DumpyWhiteMenBloviating in the morning!
Especially with BROWN gravy.
Everyone join in on the chorus: “Blame Canada . . .”
Who ARE those guys? Seriously, I don’t know who those guys are. Except for Wolfie, of course.
Can someone provide a “from left to right” for me?
Boy, Jane. Pretty snarky post….
I totally agree, however. What an amazing “debate” we have going on right now.
Personally, I think the most pressing problem in this country is not immigration, is not our ballooning deficient, not the war in Iraq, or that our government is run by 10 year olds.
No, the most pressing problem our country faces is when we are going to actually get marketed a razor that has SIX blades in it instead of this measly five. Six has got to be so much better.
I plan to write my congressman immediately.
Bob Geiger also has a great piece today on how this is the same national guard that Rummy and Bushie tried to cut by 17,000 last January, and whose benefits they continue to cut. Classy.
http://www.democrats.com/node/8951
Nice of them, isn’t it?
Great post, Jane — but the picture is making me ever so slightly nauseous.
It looks like the orange one facing away from the camera is Lou Dobbs.
Is anyone, on any side of this debate, actually arguing that illegals are taking away Americans’ jobs? I heard one guy on talk radio Sunday claiming that his younger brother tried to get a job as a dishwasher at a chain restaurant in Illinois and he couldn’t, because he didn’t speak Spanish. (Presumbly this was not a Spanish restaurant.) But I haven’t heard any actual talking heads assert this.
Clearly it’s a brown-people-among-us issue. If people were actually outraged about American jobs being taken away, they would be venting at Bangaloreans and American corporations.
OMG, is that Tony Blankley?? What a skank! Where’s his green card, anyway??
Lou Dobbs on wolf’s right, then Charlie Black, Bob Scheider and Tony Blankley.
They don’t even bother to invite a woman or, shudder, a minority. These fatties are destroying America.
Bob Schneider, sorry
L-R:
Wolf Blitzer, estwhile host; Lou Dobbs, resident border guard (w/back to camera); ??, leftish non-CNN reporter type; Bill Schneider, CNN political senior correspondent; and ??, Washington Times editor-type
I caught some of the blather, and was not impressed.
CNN has been trying to be more like Fox since Fox has been beating them in the ratings.
Perhaps the lactose intollerant will be wiling to take up arms and man the gates to stem the tide of unpasteurized cheese.
Jane, “intolerant” is spelled without .., well, the way I spelled it.
Anyway, I was going to suggest that they also make sure that all that extra-strong Labatt’s doesn’t make its way into our country.
I, too, love the smell of white men bloviating about immigration in the morning. It smells like cheese farts.
Charlie Black is a leading rethug strategerist.
The Tony Blankley rubber suit that space alien is wearing has seen better days . . .
Thanks, Cujo.
Lobstergirl @ 2:45 pm (#15) – It is, indeed. He fits right in at The
McLoudmouthMcLaughlin Group, and nowadays he’s probably at home on just about any talk show.Either we are a nation that respects the rule of law or we are not. This goes for George Bush and it al;so goes for the millions of illegal immigrants. Can’t have it both ways.
laughing too hard here Jane – well done!
EPUd info from YearlyKos – Howard Dean is coming to YKOS Saturday morning
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/5/16/171631/777
(and I gave Pach a heads up for the FDL breakfast)
Re: the photo
“LIVE” should be in quotation marks
Damn straight. Anyone who talks about border security and isn’t refering to two borders lacks credibility. And just which laborers are we going to hire to put up these walls? The ones who “won’t do this kind of work?”
Amen, sister.
Politics does indeed make strange…sorry I can’t say it, my fingers stand in rebellion
if I may:
politics makes strange, bad fellows
politics makes strange fellows bad
politics makes bad fellows strange
Just watched ‘Snowjob’ at work, I realize the use of the term ‘tar-baby’ has neutral and charged connotations, but I also noted he used the term segregate, instead of separate early in the presser. “I want to just ’segregate’ those issues. Hmm, freudian slip, or calculated provocation ?
D. Mason @ 2:53 pm (#26) – Funny, no one who talks about enforcing the laws on illegal immigrants seems to think that the law against recruiting and hiring them should be enforced. When that starts happening, I’ll start taking the notion that we need to enforce immigration laws more seriously seriously. Until then, I think that sending six million of them back in the last few years is some indication we’re enforcing the law.
I see that EPU just got EPU’d. Signs of an ordered universe are always welcome.
if they build a wall between us & canada it will only keep americans from fleeing north
Wal-Mart, Mexico Considering Sovereign Country Joint Venture
Deal May Grant Wal-Mexico “Ambassadors” Diplomatic Immunity
With President Bush’s announcement that he will send 6,000 National Guard troops to the border with Mexico, Wal-Mart was forced into “desperation creativityâ€, according to top executives. Fearing the supply of low-wage workers would dry up, Wal-Mart entered into high-level talks with Mexican President Vicente Fox about establishing a joint venture country on the Texas/Mexico border.
Under leaked terms of the deal, Wal-Mart would buy a 50,000 acre plot of desert from Mexico for an undisclosed sum. The new country, dubbed Wal-Mexico, would consist primarily of airport runways, which would shuttle its citizens to Wal-Mexico embassies—large tent cities baring the Wal-Mexican State Emblem—adjacent to Wal-Mart Supercenters once a month.
“This proposal is a win/win/win situation that could avert a huge disaster for us,†said a Wal-Mart spokesman. “We get the labor we need without the burdensome worker regulations, Mexico will get a small cash payment for useless land its citizens would be welcomed to Wal-Mexico, and Americans no longer have to worry about immigration issues.â€
“The 11 million undocumented U.S. workers will be able to apply for instant citizenship at a nearby Supercenter, and they’ll be welcomed into the Wal-Mexico Embassy immediately,†the spokesman continued.
Wal-Mart executives say the benefits to its investors and customers won’t stop there. Wal-Mexico will reportedly tax its citizens a 40% income tax on the $10 per 16-hour day wage it expects to pay its ambassadors. The wage, considered low in the U.S. but comparatively high in the future Wal-Mexico, will result in significant cost savings for Wal-Mart customers. “We’re talking handmade sweaters for $2.49, frozen breakfast burritos at 10 for a dollar†said the Wal-Mart spokesman.
President Bush said the plan had merit. “The guest worker program I proposed isn’t going over so well, so I’m open to alternatives that will satisfy all parties. I’ll be meeting with Vicente at the proposed site near Laredo next week. I’ll be looking into his heart to see if he’s serious about it.â€
A sticking point will be whether Wal-Mexicans will be granted diplomatic immunity. Representative Tom Tancredo (R-CO), is against the plan. “The Mexicans got here by breaking the laws of the United States. Now, we’re going to give them diplomatic amnesty, too? If they don’t have to follow our traffic laws, for instance, you’ll see 10 ambassadors driving down the road in a beat-up Celica all the time. It sounds like a disaster.â€
Wal-Mart executives were cautiously optimistic. “We haven’t drawn up a Constitution yet, but we do have an order from China for some very large tents,” said one Wal-Mart source who refused to be identified.
And you can be sure that the wall will be built with a no-bid contract by Halliburton
Cujo, I would love to see employers sentenced to 1 day in jail and $1,000 per illegal per day that they have them in their employ. Unfortunately our corperate owned government won’t give us that.
We live in a Nation where living wage jobs are being exported to nations that employ slave labor or near slave labor. At the same time we import low wage workers. How could this knock out combo not strain the working class of America? Explain that to me please. I know that saying anything about the immigration debacle makes me a bigot and a KKK member but please try to answer my simple question before you tell me how much of a hateful fucker I am.
all in all we’re just another wick in the brawl
Cujo359 #32
Actually, it was just 3 guys but they were sent back 2 million times each.
That pix (along with Rush the Dough-Very Pills-Boy) make an excellent argument in favor of radio. [apologies to punaise]
I am proud to say that last night after the speech that I pointed out this Lou Dobbs WhiteFest and even quoted the first Orcinus paragraph…it’s good to see our esteemed hostess giving this more prominence !
cool. “it is official, – Governor Dean will be speaking at YearlyKos!” link
I wouldn’t laugh too hard about the Candian border. It’s Phase IV of the long-term plans we’re seeing slowly implemented. See XicanoPwr’s Fortress America – Operation Gatekeeper. As he points out, “[b]eginning next year, all US citizens are required to have a passport for all air and sea travel to or from Canada.”
punaise says:
May 16th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Are you referring to a very contentious game of cricket?
Punaise,339
We don’t need no edu-macation.
D. Mason – I guess my response would be that if you’re willing to just give up on the government enforcing the law on corporations, what’s the point of saying:
Clearly, in your definition, we are already not a nation that respects the rule of law, so you can’t really use that as an argument for enforcing the law against illegal immigrants.
The push for enforcement is coming from the same people who have put the working class in the squeeze you talk about, so why would you think it’s actually going to help? Using an ineffective means to address the problem will just let them gain votes by pretending they’re doing something, while continuing to make things worse for all of us.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..components
Republican Leadership Approval Hits All-Time Low
By Richard Morin and Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, May 16, 2006; 5:36 PM
Public confidence in Republican governance has plunged to the lowest levels of the Bush presidency, with Americans saying they now trust Democrats by wide margins to deal with Iraq, gasoline prices, immigration and more, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll that underscores the fragility of the GOP’s grip on power six months before the midterm elections.
punaise
Are you saying we’re wicked? Remember that he who casts bricks should not live in glass houses, or make movies.
So happy to learn that Fitz is in DC today – gives me hope that he’ll stay overnight and bring us a big, juicy indictment TOMORROW!
“Is anyone, on any side of this debate, actually arguing that illegals are taking away Americans’ jobs? I heard one guy on talk radio Sunday claiming that his younger brother tried to get a job as a dishwasher at a chain restaurant in Illinois and he couldn’t, because he didn’t speak Spanish. (Presumably this was not a Spanish restaurant.) But I haven’t heard any actual talking heads assert this.”
It’s frankly bullshit that illegal aliens are taking jobs that Americans won’t do. Not to many years ago there were good paying and often union jobs in construction. Now? Not so much.
1. If the point of this article is to complain about the absence of women on the cnn panel, then…point well taken. I’m quite sure there are any number of intelligent women who can offer commentary on the subject matter.
2. But if the point of the article is to complain about a false threat of al queda coming across the border…then it’s woefully shortsighted. My issue with border security is strictly on the terrorist issue. The mexicans coming across, at about a 99% level, are peaceful, and actually quite tender folks.
And, yes, it’s the southern border which is the biggest problem for entry of terrorists. My worry is that, due to so many of Bush’s lies, many otherwise intelligent folks automatically discount anything Bush says or does. Understandable.
But I continue to encourage everyone to WAKE UP about the southern border and al queda. Do some research. REAL research. Try surfing around. Al queda has a foothold in south america. You might try keywords like “tri-border area, south america” or some such. Do the research. Put your scope on argentina, paraguay and brazil. That’s the hotbed. From there….al queda now has a straight land route into USA. Don’t think they’re coming? Dream on.
Ghostman
Stephen Parrish, CPA 45 –
PINK FLOYD “Another Brick In The Wall (Part II)”
We don’t need no education
We don’t need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey teacher leave them kids alone
All in all it’s just another brick in the wall
All in all you’re just another brick in the wall
I write for a small newspaper. I recently sat in on a class at a local high school that teaches county history in order to write a story about the class. Each day, the students read the newspaper in class in search of articles about recent and past county history.
The day I visited, the first immigration protests had just occurred at local high schools. The teacher asked why were people so up in arms about immigration? Why was it getting so much attention?
The first answer from the class was “Racism!”
Out of the mouth of babes…
Ghostman
They’re already here. Just last night I found 3 under the bed and one in the closet. 6,000 National Guard doing nothing but photo ops at the border can’t get there fast enough as far as I’m concerned.
CtGproject and rootsproject rock on!Teusday’s comin and I’m looking forward to being in the game!
Jane – I also want to point out that per Glenn Greenwald, the authoritarian cultists….
You may enjoy (ahem) reading (if you haven’t already) about totalitarian democracy. It fits in nicely with Uh Clem’s “what happens after you storm the Bastille” reference. NeoConmen as modern day Jacobites? Who knew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T….._democracy
Ralphbon – You have no idea what my seemingly never ending battles against entropy are like in trying to keep the EPU orderly. The horrors.
Now reporting for the Wall Street Journal,
Judith Miller, W.M.D.
Woman of Mass Deception
-GSD
(white Californian bloviation follows): and
I don’t know what I think about immigration – after six years of Bush, I expect every issue to be black & white and obvious, but this one is not clear to me. Here are random thoughts. Feel free to shoot them down one by one, but as I rattle them off, I consider them to be legitimate concerns.
1) I agree with #14 that illegals are probably taking away very few jobs, and I don’t see anything wrong with making the state bilingual. The Europeans don’t have any trouble with multiple languages. Learning Spanish has taught me a huge amount about many things, including English. I love the fact that most people at most business know more Spanish than English and I can practice my Spanish with them.
2) I agree that Mexicans are no more likely than Canadians to be terrorists, but I am worried about real terrorists coming into the country by whatever means.
3) There a tens of thousands of Mexican gang members here in California. This is no joke. I don’t know if they’re legal or illegal or if their parents were legal or illegal or what. All I know is that they are here, that they are insanely violent and that our local hospitals are literally packed with gang-related gunshot, knife, rape and drug victims every single night of the year.
4) My health insurance bill is through the roof and going up at a rate of 10% to 20% per year.
5) California’s schools are terrible.
6) 4 & 5 are made drastically worse by the huge illegal immigrant population — the larger it grows, the worse the problems get, and there is currently no way to control the rate at which it’s growing.
7) If the border were completely open and anyone from Mexico or any other country could come here and avail themselves of the social services, it’s a simple matter of supply and demand — people would keep coming until the opportunities and standard of living were equally bad on both sides of the border.
8) The Mexican government, much more than even the Bush government, supports a system where a small minority has all the money and power and everyone else is screwed. I’m sure Bush would love to get us to that point, but he’s got a long ways to go.
9) 7 + 8 = an unbearably low standard of living for current Californians.
TENTATIVE CONCLUSION: I think we should do whatever we have to do to assimilate the otherwise law-abiding illegals who are in the country, BUT, I am completely in favor of doing whatever it takes to truly seal the border ASAP, and thereafter, to regulate the inflow of new immigrants according to whatever criteria seems the most logical. Having an unsecured border simply doesn’t make sense to me. Feel free to rake me over the coals and convince me otherwise if you can. I passionately agree with 99% of the opinions I see expressed here, but I’m from Missouri on this one.
EPU #56,
Trying to keep the Ions and protons and Quarks and Snarks in order eh?
D. Mason @ 3:02 pm (#38) – I’m not either saying or implying that you’re a hateful fucker. What I was suggesting is that there is already considerable effort at enforcing the “wetback” part of the equation. What we seem to lack is any resolve to focus on the “white collar” portion of it.
And I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m giving you short shrift, but I’ve written the same thing so goddamn many times that I figure I’ve written it enough. So here it is, and maybe I should just cut and paste this until the next time someone thinks I’m calling him a bigot, which odds are will be in the next column or two.
Too often people blame illegal immigrants for doing what just about any of us would do in their circumstances. The people who hire them, meanwhile, seem to be allowed to skate, because you can’t tell an illegal immigrant from a legal citizen whose ancestors came from the same country. While I think that there might be individual illegal immigrants working for conscientious employers, those guys aren’t the problem. It’s the ones who offer jobs at such low wages that no American could afford to work on them. That’s the problem. That means people like the government contractors who cleaned up New Orleans, for instance, or half the home contractors in North Carolina. As long as there is economic incentive, all the border guards in the world aren’t going to stop people from getting here.
Or do you just favor shooting people at the border and leaving their bodies as a warning? Because that’s the sort of brutality it will take to make “more enforcement” work in any meaningful way unless something’s done on the demand side of this equation.
Ghostman #51: I agree with you, to a point. However, it seems to me that the much easier way in is through our COMPLETELY UNPROTECTED PORTS!
I mean, (mostly) red Americans are up in arms (minutemen, etc.) about the southern border and all those “brown people.” Plus, the republicans in Congress and the administration have been given chance after chance after chance to do something about protecting our ports – and they have proven they are completely unwilling to put any money or effort into it, except to turn control over to other countries, of course – all their attention is on the southern border.
It seems much more logical to me that al qaeda would use the ports or Canada because nobody’s looking – even though people like us are running around with our hair on fire.
More to the point, I think the real argument against the GOP talking point about “they’ve broken the law, so we must make sure they don’t benefit from it” is that they’ve framed it up to sound like that’s the only way the law can be maintained, and it’s not. Just as we don’t tow someone’s car when their parking meter runs out, or impound it for their first speeding ticket, having meaningful immigration laws only means that there must be some penalty, not that illegal immigrants have to be locked up or sent “to the end of the line.”
(And to anyone who argues that failing to do so will encourage more people to do it, well, if you start out by failing to do the two biggest things that would discourage people crossing the border — meaningful economic development to the south and enforcement against employers — you don’t really have a leg to stand on there, do you?)
GIVE UP????!?!?!?! Since when is being a realist giving up. I realise that it’s something that took decades to get to this point and won’t be changed over night. I just believe that the middle class, the backbone of this nation, is under heavy strain. It is VERY unfortunate that our government has gotten so out of control that their corperate handlers are immune from penalty but that’s how it is. Still, I won’t fault the average working family, who is too busy trying to feed their own kids to get into the nuances of this debate , for taking some relief wherever they can get it. I don’t hate Mexicans, hell I don’t hate illegal Mexicans, but I do recognise that in this country they are a part of a VERY complex problem facing working Americans. It’s sad that they have become the scapegoat but it’s not as sad as simply sitting back and doing nothing atall and watching the middle class collapse under the strain. I’m not all that afraid of terrorism but I am afraid of economic depression and guess what, illegals are helping the politicians and the corporations bring us there. Our elected officials, republican and democrat have put us in a shitacular position once again and they refuse to give us a common sense way out. But at this point most people will take any way out, that’s sad, but that’s life.
So WSJ has WATB JM on WMD. LOL.
54, hugh: 3 under the bed? Ok, ok. I know you think it’s funny. That’s ok.
Ghostman
punaise says:
May 16th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
I knew where you got that from! *g*
Oops – one slight miscue on my part – had you said another wicket in the brawl, my comment about a contentious game of cricket makes more sense.
hugh-larious at 54
Stephen Parrish, CPA 67 – it’s a sticky situation
As we all must remember why we attacked Iraq reason number 732: “We want to “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here!”
Um, brown people being the “them”, right? Iraqi, Hispanic, what’s the big diff?
Tony Blankley: c o r p u l e n t
Evil Parallel Universe says:
May 16th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Have you looked at this? Although I haven’t had an opportunity to read it all the way through, I wanted to mention it now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
ummmm…to keep out the terrorists, why dont we just build a big wall around Iraq and withdraw our troops?
Newsflash! Last night, the President announced that the National Guard will be sent to the Mexican border, but as INS agents stand up, the Guard will stand down. He estimates that it will take 2 1/2 years to train 6000 new agents. Why so long? Well, it’s hard to find Republican cronies willing to work for border patrol wages, and those who are are dumber than shit.
Is that a leaking pizza-flavored Hot Pocket sticking out of Tony’s pocket?
Cujo, seriously, I agree, infact, if it were up to me I would put bullets in the business owners who hire them(they’re traitors in my book). But that’s is about as realistic as deporting the illegals already here. No doubt, solving the problem will require a multi-faceted approach, but first you have to recognise that it IS a problem and so many people on the left refuse to do that. That leaves us with a debate where one side wants radical solutions and the other side says “if it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it”. It’s bullshit all around.
Guarded by steel-toothed laser-equipped beavers on our side, eh?
That should keep the draft-dodging chickenhawk riffraff out.
“Honest, Constable, I was just ‘aboot’ ta go ta the ‘jar store’ after the hockey game, when that horrible creature…What? No, no, your honor, I’m not from Maine! I’m from right here in Chibougamougahootie, I swear!”
;>)
Migrants to push north despite troop deployment
By Tim Gaynor
Reuters
Tuesday, May 16, 2006; 1:56 PM
(snip)
Bush said he would dispatch the Guard troops to border states from California to Texas, where they would aid border police with duties including surveillance and intelligence work, while stopping short of making arrests.
In response, migrants say they will trek west to cross the baking deserts of Arizona, or would swim the broad tidal washes where the Rio Grande spills into the Gulf of Mexico.
“It is not going to stop wetbacks, because the United States is where the money is,” said Honduran street trader Roger Nahun, 26, using the term long used to describe migrants who swim the Rio Grande. He spoke as he prepared to enter the river himself.
(snip)
Ahhhh….sometimes the only thing you can do is snicker, quietly.
This diary got me thinking about a mostly non-white intramural basketball team that choose to name their team “The Fighting Whities” as a way to illustrate how insulting it way to have other teams naming themselves after other stereotypes, for example, The Washington Redskins.
If you go to their wikipedia site you can also see their cafepress link. The proceeds from the T-shirts go to their scholarship fund.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites
Redshift #63
“they’ve broken the law, so we must make sure they don’t benefit from it”
When I read that, I thought for a second we were talking about the Republicans not the immigrants.
62, everhopeful: the ports are also a concern. I’m in complete agreement. Now, as to canada…I’m not “quite” as troubled. Canadian intel folks run a pretty good shop, and are pretty darn good at rooting out al queda bad guys. Some Americans like to make fun of Canada….but they are actually very vigillant on the terrorist watchfront.
Ghostman
Ghostman, the border issue is not about terrorists or the economy except in that the presence of “illegals” serves to depress wages for working people.
I’m sure you will think me naive but I think that al-Qaida would be less of a problem altogether at ALL borders everywhere if the US and its proxies stopped acting like such greedy bullies. I do not think that terrorists are the worst thing happening in the world. (Al-Qaida and other groups act with provocation. I try not to worry about them at all, what a waste of time and what a waste of precious motivation). I deplore their actions and grieve with families around the the world over over senseless loss of life, whether it be by overt violence (war, terrorism etc), or its quieter cousins famine, disease, lack of opportunity and so on.
I do worry about poverty, water, global climate change, justice, and so on and not necessarily in that order.
Now that I’ve had a chance to read what I mentioned upthread -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism
Bustedknuckles 60,
All together now:
“Ions and protons and Quarks – oh my! Ions and protons and Quarks – oh my! Ions and . . .”
obsessed @ 3:24 pm (#59) – See my comment (#61) as a response to your conclusions, as well.
This isn’t to say you don’t have valid points. I’m concerned about letting Mexico just export its excess population to this country, rather than cleaning up the corruption and mess that their own country is in. Of course, we could probably be more helpful in that regard than we have.
There are plenty of kids in LA, and, indeed, here in the Pacific Northwest, who are native born who are willing to join gangs that they have no trouble recruiting.
The state of California’s services have as much to do with California politicians not owning up to what’s really required. Given a choice between raising taxes and blaming someone who can’t vote for budget shortfalls, it’s a rare politician who will do the former. Most of those illegal immigrants still pay taxes – sales tax and gas tax, for instance. They may not pay income or real estate taxes (although they cover the latter as part of any rent money), but they use less services than most citizens. On the whole, most studies I’ve heard of suggest that they’re not a disproportionate drain on the economy compared to other citizens, and may even be a net benefit.
A local comedian summed up this situation not too long ago. He said that the only other border in the world that represented a greater economic disparity than the U.S.-Mexican border was the border between the two Koreas. That border, he said, gives you some idea what’s necessary to keep people out.
And, oh, BTW, even with the miles of barb wire, land mines, and snipers, people still get through.
Yawn. Does anyone else think that there is no real “debate” going on here? Bush is going to send a bunch of National Guardsmen to the border for a few months, then send them home. At most, they’ll put up a few miles of chain-link fence in meantime. Then we’ll head right back to the status quo. Big business depends on illegal immigrants for cheap labor. They’re not going to part with such a wonderful cheap, easily-exploited resource.
I’m back on my meds. :-)
OT -
I love it every time I see the name Stephen Cambone in the press.
D. Mason – I’m not faulting your motivations, I’m faulting you for parroting a talking point about enforcing the law that’s being used to promote a non-solution. As you’ve stated, it’s a complex problem, and embracing their enforcement talk isn’t going to help. It’s not designed to work, it’s designed to be a PR strategy, and appeal to the racist part of the GOP base, and to maybe make it a little harder for immigrants to cross so they can depress wages even further.
Working families are suffering not because there are “too many” illegal immigrants here, but because they’re illegal and can therefore be exploited and underpaid, undercutting honest employers who pay decent wages. An emphasis on enforcement against the immigrant workers themselves is only going to make that worse, not better.
So if you’re sure that there’s no way to get our government to do the things that would actually help, then which would you prefer, “doing nothing” or actively making it worse? I’d prefer to put my energies into at least trying to make things better.
As for why there are no women on that panel, that’s easy. Women are more practical than men and will usually try to come up with a workable solution to a problem. Men, on the other hand, will simply sit and bloviate. And cable TV news is all about bloviation, not about solving problems.
SP CPA – I hadn’t read Wikipedia’s version of “Authoritarianism,” but have read others. I think the Totalitarian Democracy label fits Chimpco better since all their actions are done under the guise of “democracy,” and perhaps even the belief (insane though it may be) that they are acting “democratically.”
Semantics sez I.
“a good photo op and rescuing your poll standings with the base”
Jane,
You’ve got to find out when that photo op is! Think you could get media coverage for ‘counter photo op’ at the Canadian border? Americans so embarrassed by what Bush has done to the U.S. they are trying escape/ Seniors who reach their Medicare D donut hole running to Canada for affordable drugs / a South Dakota woman forced to Canada to terminate an unwanted pregnancy….all being ‘detained’ by Canadian ‘authorities’ and told to “go back where you came from” I know I’m a lowly hack..but you …you Jane…Oh what ye of O’Brien book review fame, of the Ben ‘cut and paste’ Domenech triumph, Oh Jane what you could do with this!
something called “Americans United” just ran on CNN an interesting ad: first it shows Bush Jr saying he wants to know who leaked Valeries name. Then it shows a NYTimes headline saying the leak came from the White House. Then it quotes Daddy Bush saying saying leakers against the CIA are the most insidious of traitors. Then it tell viewers to call the WH and demand its leakers be fired…
Good for them for running the ad !
Gotta head home, see you guys later. (D., I didn’t want you to think I was just ducking out on the discussion, but I’ve gotta go. Been interesting talking to you, seriously.)
Frank Probst @ 3:45 pm (#86) – Actually, that’s the best we can hope for. The more likely case is they’ll be there for several years and not accomplish anything meaningful. If they gave me that $2 billion and told me to spend it however I want I’d help the economy more than this project will.
*ilson46201 @ 73
EXCELLENT – ‘natch
Frank P – I’ll agree. It is a photo op, political catnip that will be short-lived (if it even has a life) for Chimpco.
Again, I live on the “front lines” in AZ (ok, about 125 miles or so north of the front lines, but infiltration is seemingly everywhere) and don’t know what the uproar is about – be it security, economic harm, crime….
*ilson – I’ve seen bits of that ad twice today but never got the whole thing so I couldn’t sort out the message – thanks for the info!
and Freejack – the Canadian photo-op is too good for words! what a brilliant idea
*ilson46201– I saw the ad twice in the last 2 hrs– simply brilliant..
Whats funny about the immigration issue is that soon the right wing will tire of the infighting and drop the whole thing. Well, maybe they can’t do that (national security issue and all). Rove and crew are probably going to track down who got them in this pickle and rendition them.
redshift my use of the “rule of law” comment was directed at the more extreme elements who might suggest that illegal immigration should be ignored but would pound on the rule of law to attack dubya. Basically to stifle the hypocrisy before it cropped up. Perhaps it is something the right wingers say but you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day. If there were more respect for the rule of law among Americans this problem wouldn’t existin the first place. Business owners who hire illegals would be reviled as criminals.
Joe Klein on Dobbs.
Oh God save us………….
for clueless Ghostman: white adult males are the minority in the USA. So why do they get to do most of the punditry on TV ? When speaking of immigration from Mexico, why not have a token Hispanic (male or female) on the panel? An African-American (male or female) could also give an interesting perspective. That panel was all over 50 years old – why not some 30somethings (male or female) ?
warning– joke klein up praising chimpy’s speech on cnn.
Frank Probst- thanks for your two comments. I tend to agree on both. However, there is an issue here, in that Bushco. is using the immigrant issue to further stir up racial/ ethnic intolerance in this country as a means for political gain. Of course nothing that Bush does ever leads to a workable and fair solution for anything. (Or maybe I’ve missed something?)
So tryggth with Douglas Feith gone, is Stephen Cambone now the dumbest man in the US government?
Wilson – You can produce “Escape From Iraq.”
Hah, Joe Klein, Tom DeFrank, Bob Scheiffer on Dobbs.
Up is Down, Left is Right.
D. Mason,
“Business owners who hire illegals would be reviled as criminals.”
That’s what makes this a loser for Bush. Half of his “base” doesn’t like brown people and the other half employs them.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 3:52 pm (#96) – For people along the border, it’s a concern. They’re afraid for their safety, thanks to the large number of desparate people who are sometimes roaming through their neighborhoods, and their property, as well. It’s fairly common practice for people to leave water and food out near their houses so people don’t break in while they’re away.
Most of the people who I know from that area are soldiers or ex-soldiers. Most don’t scare all that easily. If I lived there, I’m sure I’d take it seriously, too.
I would imagine that if these panels were to include women they would be Kate O’Bierne, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingram. But as we all have talked about, a case could be made that these are not women at all, but bloviating old white men in drag. So even when these “panels” include women, they don’t really…
Good information on Cambone here. Note the last paragraphs about SRS and Torch Concepts. I’m sure we are going to hear more about Stephen.
102: good point, those folks should’ve been on the panel as well. But calling me clueless really doesn’t serve you well.
Ghostman
everhopeful @ 3:58 pm (#110) – One of the things I meant to write the last time this subject came up is “Be careful what you wish”.
Frank Probst said:
“Big business depends on illegal immigrants for cheap labor. They’re not going to part with such a wonderful cheap, easily-exploited resource.”
You’re absolutely right, they’re not. “Follow the money” remains the catchphrase of our times. And the president’s base is just going to have to get over that fact. But it is jolly good fun watching Lou Dobbs’ head explode every night. Each night it’s a brand new “stopped beating your wife yet?” poll question.
And speaking of polls, is anyone taking bets on when we’ll see the bottom of the JAR?
It’s fairly common practice for people to leave water and food out near their houses so people don’t break in while they’re away.
during the Depression in the USA in the 30s, people did exactly the same thing because of all the migrant unemployed homeless workers (a.k.a. hobos)…
new thread
everhopeful 110: So even when these “panels†include women, they don’t really…
with or without Ole 60 Grit, those “panels” feature a thin veneer of white-washed sapwood, pining for the good old days.
Urban Pirate #107
“Up is Down, Left is Right.”
It’s called chromopolitical quantum dynamics. The basic unit is the republicon. On the scale of the republicon, most of the laws of our everyday universe can be inverted, flouted, and turned inside out.
Hugh @ 105 -
From Billmon.
tryggth and Leslie in Ca
You slay me!
The way things are going, the body of Melquiades Estrada will require shifting again after three unsuccessful attempts already, to lay him to rest.
Someone got a shovel for the brush cutting, bike riding, faux Crawford cowboy? Great, Tommy Lee Jones will supervise.
If your reaction is “Que?”, go see Jones’ “Three Burials”. All will be revealed. It’s a contemporary cinema masterpiece.
Cafferty says all 3 telecos (AT&T, Verizon, BellSouth) are now flat out denying providing call records to NSA.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1066
re: Cambone. Includes that quote, and lots more.
Evil Parallel Universe says: “I think the Totalitarian Democracy label fits Chimpco better…”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
Does Chimpco include Dick Cheney?
Cujo359 – Well, crime in any neighborhood is a concern. But I don’t here people wanting to put a wall up around Bed-Sty or Brownsville or send troops in b/c there is a higher crime rate than, say, in Park Slope or Bensonhurst.
Because the issue is ratcheted up, I have no choice but to knock it down.
The whole debate at the moment is political theater at its worst – based on xenophobia and a bunch of white guys with nothing better to do than play dress up in the desert with guns. And politicians think they can use the issue to their advantage. Tell me how exactly illegal immigration from Mexico is different today than it was 1 year ago, or five years ago? What has changed? Has some critical mass been reached that I wasn’t told about?
Am I really supposed to believe that illegals are responsible for high health care costs? Or that illegal’s HARM the economy or the job opportunities of citizens? I don’t believe either of those points for a second.
Sorry. It is an issue created out of wholecloth by right wing racists – that’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.
Remember everyone, if you’re against criminals then you’re a member of the KKK.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 4:19 pm (#125) – You’re confusing the timing and motivation of political steps with the concerns I’m talking about. The latter have existed for years (in fact, I’ve been out of touch with the people I referred to for more than a year – nothing seems to have changed down there, though).
For that matter, if most of the criminals were coming from a neighboring area, I’m sure they’d be calling for some sort of barrier in the posh sections of New York. They’re not, because much of the crime is home grown there. Along the border in Arizona, in contrast, there are daily reminders of the presence of illegal immigrants.
Are BushCo making this an issue now because it seems politically necessary and/or expedient? Of course, but it’s not just about racism. It’s about economics and plain old fear, too.
EPU
actually I think Mexican immigration has reached a tipping point/critical mass and what we’re seeing is the reaction on both sides to that—the protest marches as well as the threats of walls and deportation.
I was shocked last time I was in NY (last fall, I’m an ex NYer who lives in Europe). There were dozens of Mexican day laborers lined up along Lexington Avenue in front of every home improvement store. I lived in Mexico for a year and a half out of college and I hadn’t seen anything like that since. Then to come upon it on Lexington Avenue made my head spin.
And if it made my head spin, well I can just imagine what’s going on in the red border states.
Putting political persuasion aside, this is a mass and totally uncontrolled immigration that is obviously creating enormous tensions in the country. Simply putting foot on American soil doesn’t give you any rights. I had a very good friend (Canadian) deported years ago. He lived in the country over 10 years, held a very good job. But was deported. Fair? You tell me.
The problem, like every problem but invading oil-rich nations, has been left to fester by Bushco. We have reached that critical mass, and now the debate. The horror of it is that Bushco will be deciding the response, in a climate of enormous acrimony. But they should have gotten this under control years ago. No country can just be swamped with illegal immigrants. And btw he was the f**in gov of Texas…
Cujo – I am sure people have legitimate concerns. Those legitimate concerns, or legitimate ways to deal with those concerns, are not what our politicians are giving us, and is not the way it is portrayed in the media. I don’t think there is any surprise there. To me, that is pure political opportunism and theater. You would think that the border is a real warzone. It isn’t – and I do know people who live down south.
And the idea of walls or military presence to protect nicer areas (i.e. white ny) from the poorer (i.e. blacker/hispanic) areas IS about protecting people from “foreigners” and the crime they bring.
D Mason – If the shoe fits. Wanting laws enforced and wanting them enforced in a rascist manner are not the same thing. I presume you understand that. I posted earlier that I bet the national guard kill an American citizen in their zealousness once they get to the boarder b/c they “looked” illegal. I’m sticking with that prediction.
I agree in essence but you are using the truth here to twist reality. I want the laws enforced against mexican illegals and chinese illegals and british illegals, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of illegals are mexicans. Does that make me a bigot? According to you it does(along with many millions of Americans). Hopefully that combo of hysterics and hyper sensativity won’t end up helping the republicans holding on to both houses of congress but I’m not gonna place any bets. People like you help the dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by aiming your insane rhetoric at Average voters who just want to feed their kids, thanks alot.
“Panty sniffing”???Was the group under a blanket passing the aromatic garment around from one to the other for all to bloviate over? Gives new meaning to the term “bloviate”. It will be hard to erase that new nemonic impression from the memory bank…Thanks Jane for the new template for the word.
Re: Thread’s heading ’bout unattractive white men.
Underscores a constant and repetitive theme in the blogging I do.
I cannot understand how these repellent people manage to procreate. What is it about reThuglicanism that also becomes wouldn’t-touch-’em-with-a-ten-foot-pole-ism?
Is the fact that they couldn’t get laid in a whorehouse the thing that drove them to Thuglicanism? Or vice-y versey?
Bush is brilliant. 12 million undocumented workers in the US, probably 40% of this number (4.8 million) “allowed” to cross the border in the last 4 years. 12 million cheap, easily terrorized workers, who don’t get vacation pay, matching 401-k contributions, or paid sick time. Not to mention no disability pay. And they can be fired at will. Use ‘em up and throw ‘em out. Like Kleenex. Or toilet paper.
What do we, the law-abiding citizens (and documented aliens) get? Cheap fruits and vegetables (just be sure to brush off the pesticides before eating). Cheap chicken parts thanks to factories with workers that can kill, pluck, gut and chop thousands of chickens per hour. Cheap fast food in restaurants, thanks to busboys, cooks and dishwashers. Cheaper hotels, thanks to maids and housekeepers. Bargain car washes and detailing. Cheap substitute mommies and wives to do the dirty work of wiping bottoms and cleaning toilets and washing dishes and mowing lawns. Cheaper building construction workers, who pour cement, carry bricks, put up drywall, roof houses.
And now, when the economy is humming and the corporations are profitable and CEO salaries are in the millions of dollars per year and the stock market is going up, the Administration can quietly take credit in the Boardrooms for having kept wages constant for the last few years, thanks to the endless sea of disposable cheap labor they have allowed to cross the borders, as well as keeping a hard-nosed anti-labor union stance.
And when the ex-middle class electorate wakes up and realizes that their employers (when they find one) laugh at them for mentioning pensions, sick pay, paid vacations and health insurance, then the Bush administration can blame the wet-backs for flooding into the country and lowering the standard of working. “Hey,it’s not me, it’s them sneaky beaners. Don’t get mad at me, I love ya, baby. I gave ya a tax cut. Go bash a beaner, they’re the law breakers.”
So, all those white guys who might make trouble for the Republicans if they happened to think it through, are turned in anger upon the undocumented workers, most of whom happen to be Spanish-speakers (unless they work in Irish bars or Brit tea shops) so the anger spreads to all Spanish-speakers, and maybe anyone who is brown and looks small and undernourished.
As I said, a brilliant strategy.
darkblack says: May 16th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Nice reference to “Canadian Bacon”. Not sure if that was MM’s first or not.
As to building a wall “artound” Canada. Maybe we could help you build the wall around the US instead. Then we can toss all the riffraff from the US back over it. Like Wally’s World, Lynn Cheney’s Lougheed Martin 2006 Canadian census software, etc.
And no, you can’t have our beer, but you can have a lot of our Parliamentarians, starting with Harper.
This’ll probably get EPU’d but …
around, not artound. :)
You’ll give’r aboot ‘artound’ better if ya eat yer CPR strawberries with a half-sack …Keep ya movin’, eh? Just don’t get hosed.
sined, A. Snowback
;>)
Question: Are you only an American Citizen if you have a passport? I mean, when it comes down to it, we’re all immigrants, right? What’s to stop Bushco from going back several generations…..
#125: ‘Am I really supposed to believe that illegals are responsible for high health care costs? ” :
“From July to December 2005, a six-month period, University Medical Center in Tucson treated 681 foreign nationals at a cost of $6.9 million dollars, according to a study by the University of Texas at El Paso.
Hospitals in Pima County absorbed $76 million for treating illegal immigrants in the year 2000.”
–KOLD News 13, ‘Horse Trailer Carrying Dozens Of Illegal Immigrants Crashes’, 30 March 2006
I thought we had immigration laws already.Why aren’t they being enforced?Perhaps we don’t need new laws or programs,just enforcement of the ones already in place.
As for the old saw of immigrants taking jobs Americans won’t do,bullshit.If employers were forced to pay people a living wage,Americans would do those jobs.
If there were no jobs for immigrants to be hired to do,undercutting American citizens who are willing to work,this “problem”would be minimal at best.Until employers are held accountable,nothing will fix this.If you take away a reason for people to come here,they’ll stop coming.
Any why isn’t anyone holding the Mexican government responsible for not taking care of it’s own people?