
The transcript from the latest hearing in the Libby indictment case is available. Jeralyn has been nice enough to host it at TalkLeft, and it’s worth the rather lengthy read for a number of reasons. I’ve taken some time to go through the whole of the 38 pages and wanted to share some of the highlights — as well as go through some of the definition issues that come up in the legal context that may not be so famliar for our non-legal readers.
Judge Walton began the hearing with a big question as to the materiality and relevence of a lot of Team Libby’s documents requests. It starts from the very beginning of the hearing (pp. 1 and 2). The judge has serious questions as to the rationale for the Team Libby requests for documents and discovery which is beyond the scope of the charges — and expresses doubts that he will grant said motions.
In refuting the Judge’s contention that such information is not relevent, Ted Wells, Team Libby’s attorney for this proceeding (and I presume current lead trial counsel, since he’s been taking the front man approach in court proceedings thus far), speaks to the full court press that the Bush Administration was giving toward Amb. Wilson’s claims in July of 2003:
It wasn’t just him [Libby]. He was involved in what was a multi-agency response. It was [sic] office of the vice president. It was the office of the president. (Trans. p. 5)
Aside from the fact that the "office of the President" bit is a "Hello, Karl" moment, I really have to question the kitchen sink defense contortions at this point. I understand the throw whatever you can at the wall and see what sticks methodology, but this is really the far opposite ends of the defense spectrum at this point — and is beginning to feel a whole lot like Ted Wells is auditioning for a Cirque du Soleil contortionists gig if the lawyer thing doesn’t work out.
You just cannot have it both ways in this instance for the defense and here is why: we started out with the "Scooter’s brain is like swiss cheese, and he had so many important things to tend to that the Wilson’s were only a tiny speck." (See here, here, here and here on the memory defense issue – and why it was doomed to crash from the start. "My bad memory made me lie — repeatedly" isn’t exactly a winning phrase for a jury, is it?)
Remember the Scooter memory defense that was floated out a while back? Clearly a winner, because they’ve now moved on to this one: "the whole of the Administration was focused on rebutting Wilson, but we were too honorable to play dirty and out his wife, the full court press in the Veep’s office and the President’s office concentrated solely on substance and following the rules of honorable political tactics."
Um….yeah. That’s says Karl Rove, Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney in a nutshell, doesn’t it?
Team Libby is going to have a very tough time indeed if they are going to play such substantially adverse ends of the spectrum against each other at trial in order to raise reasonable doubt in the jurors’ minds. What I think it does is smack of a sort of desperation to find anything, and I mean anything, that can create the tiniest sliver of a smokescreen. And I think Fitzgerald and his team of lawyers and investigators will be able to dispel that tactic handily with actual evidence to the contrary.
On p. 6, we find an allegation that because Marc Grossman and Amb. Wilson attended college at the same time and that both worked for the State Department at various times that overlapped throughout their careers, that this is an inference that Grossman is not to be trusted — or at least that Team Libby is likely to attempt to sell this to the jury as a means to impeach Grossman’s testimony. (See also the "Matt Cooper is biased toward Wilson" hail mary from the media subpoenas…kind of pathetic, but if it is all you have, I suppose…)
Look, I went to college with a girl whose father worked at a high level for a large arms manufacturer and defense contractor and sold arms around the world. You think she and I shared the same perspective and world view? Nope. Not on your life. Like I said, ought to be an interesting sell to the jury — but I’m afraid for Team Libby, they won’t get the chance because the Judge is not buying all the tap dancing maneuvers.
Repeatedly throughout this hearing transcript, the Judge tells Team Libby that he is not buying their theories on bringing the entirety of the rationale for the war in Iraq and the Administration’s foreign policy decisions into this courtroom as a means of defending Libby. My favorite point was this one:
I don’t mean to cut you off. I could be wrong about tactics, but I mean I don’t know if that’s a battle you want to fight before a District of Columbia jury. (Trans., p. 9)
The fact that Wells had gotten so far off track in his arguments to the court that the Judge felt he needed to bring him back to reality was…well, I thought it was kind of amusing, anyway.
There is a lot more, and I’ll wrap it up in Part II.
(I found this fantastic photo on a Cirque du Soleil fan web page, and I just love it. For those of you going to Vegas for YearlyKos, there are at least three (if not four) Cirque shows playing right now at various casinos, and I have to say that they are an amazing creative immersion experience. Well worth it, if you’ve never seen a Cirque show in person — and definitely worth it even if you have, because the staging in Vegas is beyond anything else I’ve seen, other than the show at Walt Disney World. Just FYI.)
Related posts:
- The Taxpayers Paid Dick Cheney’s Personal Defense Attorney to Obstruct Any Inquiries Into His Crimes
- Defense counsel in USA v. KSM, et al petition federal appeals court to end Congress’s segregated, sham Military Commissions
- SCOTUS Denies Valerie Plame Wilson Her Day in Court
- Sorry, Cato: It’s Not Just Republicans That Refuse to Cut Defense Spending
- Study: US Accounted for 42% of Record Global Defense Spending in 2008





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Thanks for all your work keeping us up to date on this story. Now go enjoy your saturday, willya?
Fitz!!
heeeee Bilge — I’m putting the finishing touches on Part II, and then I will be enjoying the day. (Dreary and rainy though it may be.) Have been having fun with Fiona and her new magnetic dress-up doll set this morning — and the blue jay couple that’s been raiding the peanuts out of the bird feeder by my kitchen window this morning. So funny!
O/T and EPU’ed – Overnight, on my flights from Vegas to Florida, I got a few chapters into a pretty depressing book I bought while at McCarran, “The Weather Makers.â€
http://www.theweathermakers.com/
Highly recommended. The Deciderer can continue to claim that human impact on global warming is as yet unclear, but, like with everything else, he’s full of shit. The science here is as solid as science gets. An pretty scary, if you care at all about the world our kids and grandkids will get to live in.
This is sort of like telling th cop who stops you for speeding,” I was just going with the flow of traffic,” “I wasn’t the only one speeding,” and the cop says, “Yeah, but I stopped you!”
New, interesting voice of the white house is up:
It’s largely about Cambone, the Pentagon intelligence chief. Calls him “Goebels”.
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2327.htm
The ‘No-Fly List†is a product of this program and as of May 1, 2006, runs to 23,451 Americans who are now forbidden to fly by commercial aircraft inside the United States and whose names are immediately reported to the Pentagon upon their application for tickets. The bulk of the names are not associated with foreign terrorism but are certainly considered by the Cambone people to be “potential enemies of the State†and as such, kept under constant surveillance. In the past, such surveillance has been the province of the F.B.I. but the Pentagon has taken over control of this and runs it for itself, without liaison with the Bureau.
Such turf wars and internecine squabblings have done more to utterly wreck America’s intelligence and counter intelligence agencies than legions of clandestine penetrations by the KGB, MI6 and the MOSSAD combined.
The real reason for the takeover of the CIA? So that the Bush people can get their hands on the heavily guarded CIA archives out at Anacostia at Bolling AFB. Cheney has said that if his people (read Cambone/Rumsfeld) could get their hands on these precious files, none of the early ones having been computerized, they could blackmail their enemies both foreign and domestic. There is, a Pentagon source told me yesterday, enough hitherto unknown and secret material in the early CIA archives to literally destroy governments and people around the world. Cambone would have control over these archives and God help anyone who has information on them that can be found in the files that would dare to stand in the way of the Bush-Rove-Cheney and Rumsfeld Imperium!
There is also the question of the old Hoover FBI private files and their massive amount of material on Congressmen and other Beltway luminaries. Rove has been able to mute the Democratic opposition (ever wonder why the Demos have been so quiet lately?) by getting access to some of the FBI material and threatening his enemies with exposure.
It is widely believed here that if Rove goes down, he will either blab his head off to avoid prison, keep his mouth shut and get paid off handsomely later (and a promise of being pardoned by a later Republican president) or will threaten to talk if not rescued and have a fatal accident while hunting for snipe in his back yard. Cheney will bag him with a full-choke 20 gauge and claim he thought it was a rabid attacking turtle he put 20 rounds into.â€
Yes, for those coming to Vegas for YearlyKos, the Cirque shows are FABULOUS, UNBELIEVABLE. At the moment, we got Mystere (Treasure Island), Ka (MGM), Zumanity (NY/NY) and “O” (Bellagio) happenin’.
let’s see him pull himself up by his own bootstraps
Libby’s lawyers also filed a supplemental brief on Friday.
OT – John C: I think you were being very nice and not yanking my chain, but I don’t actually smoke. It was just a metaphor for breaking the addiction to voting for Dem. candidates that aren’t good for me. ;-)
BTW – someone was talking about a Fox head going on and on about how much “the market” loved being spied on and how strong the market was — I don’t think they did the ‘discounted against international value of the dollar’ adjustment. When the dollar starts tanking, the market has to climb to just stay even in overall valuation.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ft/200…..1929327968
Dollar tumbling.
Marc Chandler, economist at Brown Brothers & Harriman in New York, said: “Precisely what officials feared would happen from the large global imbalances is now taking place in reaction to their clumsy attempt to ‘fix the problem’. Volatility in the capital markets is rising. Global equities are tumbling.”
Great cover: http://www.economist.com/image…..vUS400.jpg
Axis of Feeble
What’s the word on Jason Leopold / truthout.org: story about K Rover telling the WH that he is going to be indicted? Is anyone else verifying it?
Christy: great post. For the non-lawyers and attorneys like me who is still puzzled over their “defense” strategy, can you explain this:
1. How does “everyone else was doing it” work as a defense? Last time it was tried was in 3rd grade to the principal and it doesn’t usually work there.
2. Is this just a threat to get a pardon? If you make us go to trial we will take down Cheny, Bush, Karl, etc?
To me No. 2 makes sense but No. 1 does not so is this it or what am I missing
I think Libby’s Defense team is doing him a dis-service. Just a duh, but shouldn’t their main focus be to show that the prosecution has not been able to show, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he lied?
The game they appear to be playing is ,’If i ca’t dazzle them with my brilliance, I,ll baffle with my Bull Shit!”
Thanks Mary.
Team Libby should be able to show Cirque a thing or two about being contortionists ;)
I saw Cirque’s ‘Varekai’ last month in Portland. Fun stuff. Reminded me of the kind of skills possessed by the professional dance troop Pilobolus.
Look, I went to college with the son of the Shah of Iran and the son of Carol Channing. Not sure what that makes me, but I certainly wouldn’t let any lawyer include it in a brief to indicate my world view.
Ted Wells is making how much an hour from the Comstock Lode for this idiocy?
Speaking of hatefully corrupt, criminal, incompetent and doomed Republicans, does anyone have the latest dirt on the Frist investigation? Now there’s a chimp I’d like to see with his head in the stockade (or whatever it is you call that Pilgrim shaming apparatus).
Mornin Redd. Thanks for the update.
I suppose that the defense is using multiple theories during this discovery phase in order to :
1) Get the judge to approve as much discovery as possible.
2) Supply grounds for appeal later if some of the requested discovery is denied by the judge.
I suppose they are requesting “the kitchen sink” in hopes that much of what they are requesting will be contested in the end by the White House- and the news media leading to lengthy court battles.
I think they want to string this whole process out untill 2008- at which point GW Clusterfuck will have nothing to lose by issuing pardons.
The theories they use in these bullshit arguments have nothing to do with what they would argue in court for the simple reason that they don’t ever intend to GO to court.
I am wondering if Fitz is waiting on a Rove indictment until this stuff is pretty much put to bed. Isn’t there another evidentiary hearing on the 16th? Maybe Fitz thinks he can get things wrapped up then and go for Rover. Would that make sense? Maybe he doesn’t want to fight two discovery wars at the same time- as the two teams could find ways to tie him in knots.
The bulk of the names are not associated with foreign terrorism but are certainly considered by the Cambone people to be “potential enemies of the State†and as such, kept under constant surveillance.
never doubted for a minute that wasn’t behind al gore’s, ted kennedy’s and john lewis’ names on the watch list. they have all encountered difficulties when flying.
OK, I see at page 5 where Wells says “our core defense is” that even if Libby was told about Wilson “it didn’t stick” because it wasn’t important because he was “responding on the merits.” (Merits of the case for war?)
And then he launches into the “and everyone else was doing it too.” (Spinning and lying and trying to justify the lies that took us to war?)
It seems strange. Wells asks/asks the Court to ask Fitz if he’s going to get into the merits of Wilson’s charges — which of course he won’t do — and Wells says he may want to discredit certain people anyway.
It seems to me it’s Wells that wants to litigate the underlying issue: DID THEY LIE US INTO A WAR?
And the only reason I can see this is again the shakedown tactic of “you better pardon me or else.”
Is this a fair reading?
When Irving sought counsel, there was all this oohing and aahhing about Ted Wells as the big swinging dick of while collar criminal defense – and now there are times, even without Christy’s help, where even I can see how anemic this shit is, what in the hell must Judge Walton be thinking ?!?! Tells me the prosecution has a very tight case
As stated so cleverly in these threads the other day, it is definitely time for a little Flippity Do Dah ! – Surrender Irving !
Christy: thank you for the in-depth narrative.
I’m not a lawyer and I can’t get through a single passage of the documents without feeling that they’re wriiten in some other language.
I like Tom at #10 questions. the same thoughts occured to me.
We’re looking forward to your ansewrs.
And I really hope Karl does get indicted, can you imagine if he get’s cleared? The srtutting, the sloganeering, the ‘we have a mandate’ posturing that we’d have to endure… oy-vey!
so Well’s is making the conspiracy defense. should be interesting to see the testimony and the facts that show who was involved
rw at 17 — the hearing ont he 16th is, I believe, limited to the subpoenas to the media and their resulting motions to quash. It should be all the media attorneys and Team Libby duking it out over what does or does not have to be produced and, based on the briefs and motions, it ought be interesting.
Ed Beckmann from prior thread, just my take on a prior Leopold “scoop†that still hasn’t panned out from a comment I made a few threads ago.
“Leopold sometimes comments here and at tnh; sometimes under his own name, sometimes not. He frequently uses unnnamed sources and is already on the record that Rove has received a target letter from Fitz before his last GJ appearance. There are numerous problems with Leopold’s alleged scoop. 1. It would be unusual for Fitz and most prosecutors to issue a target letter before a GJ appearance. 2. It would be really unusual for a defense attorney to let his client go before a GJ after receiving a target letter. 3. Rove’s attorney, gold bars Luskin, denied receiving the target letter. Why would Luskin lie about something that could get him disbarred? 4. Normally when Fitz issues a target letter, the indictment follows that same day. 5. Leopold has an “exclusive†on this information. If you were going to “leak†such dynamite material that everyone wants, why would you leak it only to Leopold? 6. Leopold’s sources invariably tell his readers what they want to read. For more , read emptywheel’s “Reading Comprehension can be Fun “over at tnh.
Jane and Christy (and Pach and guest posters) never use unnamed sources and they always link. They never overplay what they know. If they aren’t sure, they tell us. Among a constellation of reasons, I think FDL traffic continues to grow at such a tremendous rate, because Jane and Christy have earned our trust with unfailing accuracy, over thousands of posts and comments.â€
I certainly hope Leopold turns out to be right and that I am not. I just don’t think that is going to happen.
IMO Leopold hurts all progressive bloggers. The WaPo and NYT’s can use his “looseness†with sources to slime the very responsible posting that goes on at FDL ….
OT: The longer the interval between Rove’s last GJ appearance and his indictment, the more it sounds as though Rove dug himself in even deeper with new
liestestimony. Fitz has to check Rover’s latest excuses, plus Fitz has to filter any new info he got from Rove through all the previous testimony and evidence he has already accumulated.More than anything, the defense is stalling. They want to keep this off the radar long enough for Karl to work his magic in the congressional races. There will be pardons all around if T-blossom can pull it off.
OT-Isn’t the Katherine Harris race screamingly hilarious?
As always Chrisy, lovely didactics – bringing us pups along slowly about how criminal justice works while interpreting the inside baseball stuff, especially about all the signalling that goes on anoung the various parties that’s so opaque to us outsiders.
Now I’m wondering about a couple of questions that I suppose only time can answer. It seems like Wells has presented two somewhat conflicting “theories of the case”, and both have been shot down before getting anywhere near a jury. If Rove is indicted, would his defense team have time to present its own “theories of the case” that might conflict with Libby’s? Or vice-versa? After all, there’s still only one truth: what really happened. Would such a possibility push Libby back to negotiations, maybe?
Sorry for these rambling sort of questions, but I’ve had to use a fair amount of Baysean analysis in my work, and I find myself trying to plot out decision paths for the various parties to try to tease out what their grand strategies might be. And my lack of a knowledge base legally and politically leaves me with a fine analytical tool and no good way to apply it.
OfT: New York Times puffery piece on Hayden
Cheney Pushed U.S. to Widen Eavesdropping
According to this, Hayden and the NSA lawyers defended our civil liberties against Deadeye and Addington. I’m not buying it. It sounds just like what the WH wants to peddle to Republicans to get Hayden confirmed.
tom — chicago says: “Is this a fair reading?”
May 13th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Have you considered that Scooter might be trying instead to throw at least one other person under the bus, so to speak, in an attempt to exonerate himself?
oldtree says:
May 13th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Yes, this could be interesting. Let’s think about this stratagem for a momnet: he tries to exonerate himself as he implicates others involved in a conspiracy in which he was also involved. How well do you suppose that will work?
Some of the Goopers are still trying to float the , “No one has been charged with an “underlying crime,” so charging Libby with Perjury is bogus,” crap!
If it were I, and I was innocent of leaking Valerie Plame’s name to the Press, I sure as hell would not put myself in legal jeopardy by lying to the FBI or the Grand Jury to cover up something I was never guilty of in the first place! Well, maybe for my husband or kids, but not for Dick Cheney!
I know,i know, they are playing to the kool Aiders.
OT, Josh Marshall reports a new Newsweek poll that isn’t exactly aligned with the WashPoo poll:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..008453.php
53% say it goes too far in invading privacy.
57% say they’ve gone too far in expanding presidential power
So, I went to school (in the same dorm, on the same floor) as Jim Woolsey–but that doesn’t make me a neocon.
Libby’s “I forgot” defense was addressed by Fitzgerald at the last hearing (you can read about it and get a link to the documents at emptywheel: Dick Takes Notes).
Fitz noted that he had testimony that Libby was admonished by a CIA official concerning the serious damage caused by the leak of Valerie Plame’s name.
Fitz (and the judge) also made it clear that it isn’t relevant how many WH staffers were involved in the underlying crime, because that isn’t germane to the charges that Libby lied to the Grand Jury.
Oops – that should read as follows: Let’s think about this stratagem for a
momnetmoment.OT – Cook Political Report has new Senate rankings out… no change from March report, EXCEPT George Allen been downgraded from “solid rep” to “likely rep”:
http://cookpolitical.com/races/senate/ratings.php
(also note six GOP seats in “toss-up”, which includes Tenn.)
Bayesian analysis
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BayesianAnalysis.html
Bayesian analysis is a statistical procedure which endeavors to estimate parameters of an underlying distribution based on the observed distribution. Begin with a “prior distribution” which may be based on anything, including an assessment of the relative likelihoods of parameters or the results of non-Bayesian observations. In practice, it is common to assume a uniform distribution over the appropriate range of values for the prior distribution.
Given the prior distribution, collect data to obtain the observed distribution. Then calculate the likelihood of the observed distribution as a function of parameter values, multiply this likelihood function by the prior distribution, and normalize to obtain a unit probability over all possible values. This is called the posterior distribution. The mode of the distribution is then the parameter estimate, and “probability intervals” (the Bayesian analog of confidence intervals) can be calculated using the standard procedure. Bayesian analysis is somewhat controversial because the validity of the result depends on how valid the prior distribution is, and this cannot be assessed statistically.
Bayesian analysis is used in the design of software filters to automatically detect and delete junk electronic mail (i.e., “spam”).
I don’t think that Bayesian analysis is very useful tool for determining what is going on, except for that “posterior distribution” thingy.
Shorter answer — Scooter’s attorneys are blowing it out their ass . . .
TeddySanFran:
I think I took a date to your senior play, “Hello Shah-ly!” It was no “Springtime for Hitler”, but for a school play, it was damn entertaining.
I went to college with Jonah Goldberg (really) and I don’t think that makes me sympathetic to his feable causes.
Christy, — thank much for another insightful explication. It appears that Team Libby is still fishing around, not just for evidence, but for a theory that has an ounce of plausibility. So far, nothing we’ve seen seems to pass the laugh test. It’s also hard for me to believe that any reputable attorney would be purusing theories that did not really help his/her client, but were designed solely to affect some larger political play. So I don’t buy that Wells would accept that notion, even though Comstock might want it.
Rob Zuber 28: thanks for the link to Josh re the new poll on NSA. Really important. We should now expect other polling orgs to examine this, and not rely on WaPo, to try to reconcile the two polls. The next set of articles we should look for are those from MSM, who start to question, “Gosh, why are these polls on the ’same question’ so different.” “How is polling done.” It should be educational. And they’ll look to the blogs and find out about how the WaPo guy does his “work” and maybe even find the link that says “the polling company works for the Telcos, and . . .” The polling story could become another mini-scandal. Stay tuned.
ReddHEdd on the case!
Thanks. You know how much I enjoy these.
scarecrow (35)
Don’t we wish!
I really don’t think you want me as a copy editor, but I thought you’d like to correct this,
You are on your own from now on. I promise.
Christy,
I was EPU’d on Bubba thread, really EPU’d!!!!
I posted a comment at 10:13pm thread time comment #144 and received an waiting to be moderated message in name header. Somehow the comment totally disappeared. Here’s the time line and comment numbers.
10:31pm #165
11:07pm #196
11:12pm #198
11:14pm #200
11:18pm #205 Comment disappeared from my screen of thread.
11:35pm #223
11:41pm #232
11:50pm #242 Comment still missing.
Did you delete my comment or do you have any idea where it got EPU’d too? Should I try reposting it again as I think due too its size it might again show awaiting moderation? Any suggestions?
It was about KKKarl Rove. Thank you.
slanted comments OFF!
OTOH: Re the “we were all involved” defense: with Fitz still talking to an active GJ in a continuing investigation, with the imminent possibility of other WH officials being indicted for similar activities, why would Team Libby want to encourage a public perception that he and others in the WH were all trying to accomplish the same thing that just happened to result in outing Plame? If the defense were allowed to pursue this at trial, the prosecution would be free to explore, in public, during cross of WH officials, under oath, whether there was a conspiracy, opening Libby and others up to further charges. Oh . . . is the best defense for Libby to threaten the WH?
darn
Myabe after Hurricane Katrina Wells decided to secretly throw the game on these rapacious fuckers?
-GSD
OFF, dammit
The technical term for what Libby’s lawyers are doing with the whole Grossman/WIlson thing is the “Kevin Bacon Defense.”
Didn’t everyone in political DC go to college with everyone else?
*ilson- thanks
not too OT, right?!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051206Y.shtml
topic:
Rove Informs White House He Will Be Indicted
By Jason Leopold
t r u t h o u t | Report, Fri 12 May 2006
Is this reliable?
Some commenters (at Dem Undergr., which picked this up)were guessing Fitz surely wouldn’t come out till Mon., & that maybe that was why jr. has scheduled a tv appearance for Mon. night.
this site suffers from a superabundance of deprecated html tags. EM and STRONG should removed from the choices, at the minimum! they merely duplicate I and B
Thanks *ilson. We were all leaning too far to the right for a moment, but you brought us back to center.
scarecrow says:
May 13th, 2006 at 10:19 am
Does it look to you as if Team Fitz is getting what they want handed to them on a silver platter? And if Team Fitz already knows what happened, but for connecting some dots, what is the nature of the threat to the WH? Is it that what really happened will become public?
Wikipedia on “The Kevin Bacon Defense”
Murder in the First
“Murder in the First is a 1995 movie, directed by Marc Rocco, about a petty criminal named Henri Young played by Kevin Bacon, who is unjustly sent to Alcatraz….”
Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.
Young had stolen $5 from a grocery store/US Post Office to feed himself and his little sister. After trying to escape he is sent to solitary confinement for 3 years, instead of the maximum sentence of 19 days, and eventually goes mad. He kills another inmate that was involved in the escape. His young lawyer puts Alcatraz on trial pointing out that the incredible brutality his client endured was in a sense the real killer. The film was a box office hit and Bacon’s performance as the tormented prisoner was widely lauded. However, many have pointed out the film played fast and loose with the facts……”
Scooter lied. Why he lied isn’t relevant to the charge. Rove lied and then came back with a different lie and then another and yet another and one more for good measure. Why and how he lied is relevant if he is indicted for conspiracy to obstuct justice as well as perjury. No one has been charged with the ‘real’ crime of outing a CIA agent because Bush de-classified that information after the fact. I think this was done so that the CIA couldn’t leak the fact that Iran isn’t going to be making any nukes soon which would undermine their agruement for going to war with another oil rich country. Fitz is very carefully showing that the tailors who wove the invisible thread
were working on orders from the ego-maniac Emperor. “Sometime even the President of the United States must stand naked.” Bob Dylan said that. It isn’t going to be pretty, but Fitz will do it….. if he doesn’t have an accident. Pardons of course will follow.
Tom – Chicago and everone else re “Voice from the White House” cited at the top of this thread.
VERY unreliable source – the site is called TBRNews but it’s really a one-man show from a gentleman who calls himself “Walter Storch” but has many pseudonyms. This DailyKOS post from awhile back pretty much knocks him down:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/4/15748/99064
Word to the wise – just sayin’…
ck 32:
In the business world, Baysean analysis is used to construct “decision trees” to map a pathway from a starting point to an end result when there are multiple pathways and conditions of uncertainty.
In this case (pun unavoidable), I’m trying to reverse-engineer what Libby’s looking at from his perspective: knowing when to hold ‘em, knowing when to fold ‘em, etc.
What I was trying to get at (however awkwardly) was two points: (1) Might Judge Walton’s pretrial purging of Wells’ oxygen – or, to your point, methane – affect Libby’s negotiating posture; and (2) Might the appearance of Rove on the legal stage complicate Libby’s life enough for a re-think? Will Libby continue to hold ‘em, or is it becoming time to fold ‘em?
Libby’s probable objectives, in decending order of desirability:
Vindication and a return to public life
Exoneration, but with lingering doubts, political career over
Avoidance or minimization of jail time and financial consequences if convicted
Better conditions in confinement
Walton’s pretrial decisions so far seem to indicate that the top two outcomes are sliding off the table (there’s some probability distributuin around each) if his case goes to trial, so what could he get from Fitz if he folds ‘em?
As rwcole pointed out in his #17, Fitz having to contend with Libby and Rove simultaneously might be a plus for Wells via raising more confusion. But it also might be a negative if there are so many stories that none of them are believed.
Morning All,
Redd, Mary,et al, IANAL, but doesn’t the change in tactics seem to provide motive to the underlying crime?
Isn’t that what has been missing and flimsy in prosecuting under the statute?
Seems to me, this avenue has made their case weaker and more likely to bring those additional charges.
Any take on this? I would like to see the conspiracy and espionage act violations charged as well. I think Fitz would too, if he can button it up. Seems like Wells is helping.
Gestapo Watch: US is funding warlords in Somalia to fight Islamists.
“Although estimates vary, it is thought between 102 and 142 people, most of them civilians, have now died since Islamic fighters and US-backed warlords began battling for control of the city, local sources say.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..C21344.htm
-GSD
Adie,
It has been noted that just prior to the Libby indictement–Leopold was reporting that 22 files of potential indictees were seen.
That caused much speculation, most of it unwarranted.
Leopold appears to have a bit of a consistency problem…But he digs the story and he is trying…
-GSD
SP, CPA — just guessing, but I assume that in the absence of further and broader indictments going to violation of the statute and/or conspiracy, the prosecution is focused only on the crimes that have been charged. So I can’t assume they are getting something “they want handed to them . . .” I’m just trying to understand what theories the defense sees as having some chance of success.
There are multiple scenarios that might concern the WH. The worst, I expect, is direct testimony from an insider that there was a conspiracy involving multiple WH officials, some still in high positions, to discredit a CIA office and agent that might be independent enough to question both the case for the last war (goes to impeachable offense)and the case for the next war, and that in the process they at least recklessly, if not deliberately, exposed Plame’s covert status (goes to statutory crimes that public associates with “treason”).
So when Libby’s team argues that “we were all working to respond to Wilson, and one way was to suggest cronyism wrt to his wife’s position,” when the know there’s evidence of her status, they allow the prosecution to cross wrt to exploring the boundaries of what the focus on Wilson’s wife and her position really were about, and what did they know about her, and how did that relate to the policies they wanted to protect — all going to motives very different from and more criminal than the ones Libby might be trying to prove. Seems it’s a very dangerous defense strategy, IMO. But . . . IANApracticingL, never was a litigator/prosecutor, let alone a Plameoligist like others here. Just thinking out loud.
Thank you, Ron Zuber #30 for posting an *actual* poll!!
When you think about exactly how much BushCo had to gain from a poll showing that “No one ELSE cares if we spy illegally!”, it becomes undeniable that it was nothing more than a Nazi-brand piece of propaganda. It was successful, but pretty soon reality will hit them. No one *actually* thinks the NSA program is a good idea, and I predict Shrub’s numbers will PLUMMET in the next couple of weeks. Watch and learn.
Try this site for a disscussion of new wiretapping technologies and policy implications
http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
Mary,
Do you have link to the supplemental brief or do I have slog through pacer?
CBL @20
There is story that floated around Foley Square (where the courthouses in NYC are) at the time, that when Matha Stewart was brought in on the origainal insider trading inquiry the USAO and FBI assumed that she would come in appologize, say “I didn’t realize I couldn’t do that,” tell everthing she knew to demonstrate her good faith and basically law abiding nature, pay a fine, look chastized and go about her life.
Instead she hired a big swinging appendedge type lawyer. He used the be chief of the criminal division at the USAO SDNY and his picture hangs on the wall in the reception area for Crim Div. His law partner was the USA right before Mary Jo White took office.
So this guy comes in and does just what Wells likes to do. He tries to intimidate the line AUSA’s and the FBI agents (some of whom were surprisingly junior for such a high profile case).
He goes into this “I used to be your boss’s boss’s boss”"my pictre is on the wall down the hall from this room” rant. When it didn’t work, he went over the line assistant’s head to the unit chief, then over the unit chif’s head to the the Chief of the Criminal division. And so on and so on right up to Comey, and when Comey left for DC, tried again with Kelley.
The FBI really dug it’s heels in. The line assitants were in an uproar. IMHO Martha Stewart got totally fucked over because her lawer had to try to show off.
I have talked to some of the agents and pointed out that it seems a shame that a client should suffer for the sins of the lawyer, and their take was “hey, she hired him. She was in the room when he pulled this shit and she was OK with it”
I don’t know that I agree with that. I have mixed feelings. Lay people hire us and put their trust in us lawyers. That’s why we are supposed to act as fiduciaries with them, putting their intrests ahead of our own and putting their intrests ahead of our egos.
Ted Wells goes out and speaks in public about liking to go over line asistant’s heads if he is not getting his own way and brags about being willing to go all the way up the food chain to try to get the authority to decide taken away from anyone who does not decide as he wants.
That’s what Wells did with the ridiculous motion attacking Fitz’s appointment as Special Prosecutor.
However, Libby is lawyer himself. He has done criminal pardon work for Mark Rich, so he certainly knows all the personalities and local dynamics at least as well as anyone reading this thread, maybe better.
Libby knew what he was getting when hired Wells. He is sophisticated enough to see what Wells is doing and recognize it for what it is and to read and understand the caselaw and statutes involved.
Libby is either desperate and in denial, stalling for time while he works out a plea deal, or playing cat and mouse with his co-conspirators to see if they will come to his rescue before he pulls the plug and flips.
My money is on the last alternative. I think the defense fund is a critical component. As a wise man once pointed out, $5 million buys a lot of motions.
Once Team Irving has burned through that money, and it has to be going fast b/c they sqander so much billable time haveing an army of suits show up for each court appearance (you only really need Wells and Jeffres, the rest are just for show)and heaven only knows how much time is getting eaten up in internal memos, multi hour “team” conference calls and repetative meetings.
If the defense fund is allowed to start running low on money, watch for a huge shift in tactics if not an outright flip on a dime. Until then, the existance of the defense fund is supposed to keep Irving from going off the reservation.
Libby’s team is trying to make this all just a high stakes psycholigical poker, more’s the pity. It should be a search for justice and fair treatment for their client. A man’s liberty and future are at stake. He is not just a pawn or a source of huge buckets of cash for a few law firms.
BTW the average billable hour for a major NYC law firm is now around $600 per (I think–am home don’t have lawyer mags to hand). Senior partners go for more (there’s even a few who have broken the $1,000 per hour ceiling) How long does $5 million last at those kinds of rates, plus the cost of flying a buch of NYC lawyers down to DC first class and the very very nice hotels they require every time there is a court appearance.
I assure you they will not be bumping into FItz in the hallway of the hotel, he travels on a somewhat miserly government travel per diem.
It is not uncommon in some for the client to be billed around the clock for business travel from the time the lawyer leaves the office until the time he returns to the office. It adds up fast.
Okay Christy, just tried reposting my EPU’d comment from early this morning. Comment shows time of 10:15am #59 and says Awaiting moderation. I hope this one don’t disappear like the last one did.
Could you please check it and approve it showing up in the comments section as being posted. Thank you.
Great comments as per usual, lhp, thanks.
upper left edge @ 54 –
Light bulb moment — Rove’s multiple visits to the GJ set up the obstruction of justice charge, in addition to lying and perjury. Fitz won’t even need to use the underlying crime in this go round.
al-Scooter @ 56 –
Baysean analysis is a very useful tool for predicting outcomes in rational systems, but that’s not what we dealing with here.
Shorter answer — Scooter will never fold ‘em, because the joker in the White House is his hole card.
He has no defense — but if he flips, there is no way he stays out of jail. Stalling and praying for a pardon is his only hope.
hmmm . . . on second thought, is my analysis an accurate Baysean regression?
upper left edge #54: ” No one has been charged with the ‘real’ crime of outing a CIA agent because Bush de-classified that information after the fact.”
I believe Fitz is very, very smart. He knows Libby and the rest of the WH did some very bad things. He wants them to go to jail for their crimes. The charge doesn’t matter as much as actual convictions (involved with Mafia cases as he is, he’d be familiar with the tax evasion conviction!). So he charged Libby with perjury, a slam-dunk charge, and is calmly watching them twist in the wind.
O[this specific]T [but a propos recent posts, generally Pach’s], from mediacitizen:
Turns out that the “net neutrality” ad in the left sidebar over the last few days is actually the product of a group headed by Mike McCurry, shill for the telcos.
Hadn’t caught any references on earlier threads, seemed important enough to point out. Apologies if redundant!
lhp — now that’s a plausible argument. As in Watergate, where it was the “hush money” angle that eventually helped break the case. Back then, they needed only “a million, yeah, we can probably get that.” Nixon to Dean.
when Rove gets indicted, more expensive lawyers get involved — poor Karl isn’t really, really rich. Fundraising (which Rove knows how to do) will start immediately. Donors don’t give just to be nice – recipients have to have future prospects of being helpful. Felons might make great gardeners but that’s about it. So when do the various legal funds start shriveling?
John Casper,
Thank you. You flatter me.
Scarcrow @59
The beauty of the Team Irving flailing around, is that they may end up providing the very conspiracy case, that Fitz would have had trouble making out, BUT FOR, Irvings admissions against intrest.
Admissions against one’s own penal intersets are an exception to the hearsay rule, under the Federal Rules of Evidence and would be admissable at trial to prove the truth of the statement.
So let them spin, spin spin (that’s my Warner Wolff impersonation sportsfans)it’s all good!
lhp: at those prices 5 million is not going to last long. they will have to pass the hat again. plus, if Karl gets indicted, he’ll be going to the same donors.
Better put their fundraising hats on!
loosseheadprop – thanks for your input above – always welcome -
funny you mention Martha’s counsel – as a non lawyer, had the same feelings about the high priced help ‘bending over a slap on the wrist’ to pick up an ‘exhoneration’ sheesh.
Oscar @66
Couldn’t agree with you more.
I must say, after reading the May 5th transcript, I became really really cheerful.
I can see the case atking shape. And I like what i see. I agree with Judge Walton, this can be a tight focused one month trial, not a five month circus show (been there done that, they almost never end up being decided on the merits b/c at the end the jury is confused and ehausted and it ends up decidng on gut feeling more times than not)
This is tight, focused, clean with easy to discen issues. A really beautiful piece of lawyering. Just beautiful.
oops “Circus show” no pun intended re: picture at top of blog. Must be subliminal.
I think you can boil the whole Libby defense down to a project to answer the musical question:
“How much delay can you buy in a criminal case for $5 million?”
So far he’s gotten nearly a year. He doesn’t want to go past Dec. 08- so he needs just one more year- and he can probably get another $5 million if necessary to buy the extra year.
Some practitioners of wingnuttery are very generous with their cash.
lhp — thanks for insights. I replied, but it appears my otherwise harmless comment was “immoderate” and I have been assigned to purgatory. Back later when sins forgiven.
Re: Net Neutrality and the lying ad:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/5/12/142846/419
This is a highly, highly recommended overview and description of the status of the Internet Freedom fight. Take a look at it.
As for the ad, we’re taking their money and using it against them. There’s been a lot of discussion about accepting this ad across the blogosphere and for the most part, we’re agreed on taking their money and shiving their agenda back down their throats. We can use the precious extra scratch to build our Roots Project technological infrastructure.
Verizon and AT&T realy are scum. Their federal welfare spigot needs to run bone dry.
I really don’t have a doubt at this point that Rove will be indicted.
I can also see how Fitz would be in no rush, considering that the targets continue to dig a deeper hole. I love watching them freak out.
Latest distraction destined to backfire – Militarize the border (but only until November, lol)
Axis of Feeble indeed (props Mary, brilliant as usual)
My rat spies report that these first line defence ploys are very ‘ old school’ and the defence will soon apply to have the whole trial moved to the left coast where the real cutting edge legal action is.
This is where it gets interesting because Team Comstock have unearthed evidence through Kato Kaelin that the Wilsons were involved with drug dealers in the Brentwood area – also they ask that Irving the pervert Libby’s taste for prune Danish allows the so-called ‘ Twinkie defence’ some latitude even if no one was shot dead…locally.
And if anyone was shot because of all overseas in far off foreign climes then the Wells plan’s to call Robert Blake and Phill Spector for the defence.
I may have said to much but the chain-of-custody of Irvings statements looks set to become an issue for a motion to dismiss – NSA interference said to cause disruptions to the underlying zero’s and ones of any transmitted data relating to the charges say my rat sources.
While all these legal tactics may sound rather dry and technocratic Team Libby is also passing the hat around for a ‘ Faith based’ defence the details of which remain a total mystery.
The optimist in me sees the defense playing a hand that will lead them over the goal line and into a conspiracy charge end zone.
Soak the Rich ! Click on the Network Neutrality Ad ! It’ll cost the Telcos money per click … and a portion of each click will be paid to this website to continue.
You actually help FDL by clicking on it and then saying “oh, crap”. Nobody will force you to read the damn thing…
and he can probably get another $5 million if necessary to buy the extra year.
Some practitioners of wingnuttery are very generous with their cash
well, with it being an election year hopefully a few of those hoses will only trickle, if not run dry completely
Oscar says: â€No one has been charged with the ‘real’ crime of outing a CIA agent because Bush de-classified that information after the fact.â€
May 13th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Let us remember why the CIA made a criminal referral to the Justice Department.
The procedure for formal declassification of classified information has been discussed in previous threads. If I recall correctly, once the CIA classifies the status of an agent under non-official cover, the director of the CIA, as the head of the classifying department, would have to approve the declassification of the status of the NOC. And I’m not certain that ex post facto disclosure of a covert agent’s NOC status can be asserted as a defense to a violation of 50 USC 421. Permitted defenses are listed in 50 USC 422.
George A at 64 — If you’ll scroll down through the comments form the last coupla days, you’ll see that the Leopold article has been linked, quoted and discussed quite a bit in the comments (and Jeralyn has some great thoughts on it at TalkLeft today). Your post had an extensive quote which was a repeat of the same stuff that’s already been quoted a large number of times. We try not to get the same stuff, over, and over, and over again in the comments once something has been discussed and hashed through (which is why it eventually shows up in our SPAM filter software, and then we have to go in and manually back out all of the terms that have started repeatedly showing up if it’s not really SPAM, just FYI) — sorry, but it’s the way we try and handle things because even the best of theories and articles becomes spam to regular readers after they’ve read the same thing 50 times.
And a note to everyone: we are trying to keep all the viagra and porn spam out of the comments (and all the other lovely crap that people try to post along those lines), all the while we are researching, following up on leads, phone calls and e-mails and writing articles. If your comment needs to be moderated because you use a key word that the Spam filter picks up or for whatever other reason (like a lot of links or something), please be patient. We are working as quickly as we can under the circumstances. Wish we had a staff of fifty, but we don’t so I’m asking for your patience. Thanks.
When I click on the Internet Neutrality ad, either on FDL or using the link in the MyDD story Pachacutec linked to, I get “The page cannot be displayed.” Have tried several times with same result. Anyone else getting this? Have the telcos pulled the plug on the ad?
New thread, more Redd!
new thread – parte dos
Statistical analysis… I hope they’re correcting for multiple comparisons, because when you’re collecting data on millions of people, you’ll get false positives, i.e. some people will profile as terrorists by chance. A p value, likelihood score, or posterior probability indicate the odds that you are seeing it by chance. If you have a hundred million people’s phone calls, you’ll get support at p=0.05 for five million people just by chance.
OT a wee bit: With Glenn Greenwald’s book “officially” being released this coming Monday, I thought it appropriate to ask all to visit the Democracy or Despotism?. website.
The video has a few choice interview soundbites of Glenn’s; as well as video of Shrub giving us all the finger and his oft-repeated statement about wishing this was a dictatorship and he the dictator.
Stop by and ponder! Also, pass the link along!
According to Wikipedia, Joe Wilson went to college at UC Santa Barbara, which now has more than 17,000 undergraduate students. Do they really think that means they knew each other?
I went to school with a guy who used to be a kicker for several NFL teams, and we were even in a few classes together. I’m willing to bet that neither of us would even recognize the other now.
Hands up who watched LA Law?
There was an episode where a couple were tried for killing their severely disabled child; remember? Each one presented a strong case that the other had done it and that gave the jury reasonable doubt.
One minute they’re screaming abuse at each other in the courtroom – next thing you know they’re holding hands in the elevator out.
Is that the way this is shaping up here with that filthy pervert Irving ‘ going wide’ and overseas while Rovesputin’s throwing up the ‘ domestic only’ sand at every opportunity?
Create enough reasonable doubt to evade the underlying charge – go down for the evasions and obstruction’s but appeal and stall and angle for the pot-o-gold pardon and even die in the ditch if need be for Reichsmarshall Dick.
This is the ‘ Waffen SS’ we are talking about here – not the ‘ Wermacht.’ Fanatical sieg-heiling, goose-stepping followers of ‘Mein Fuhrer’ they surely will fight to the endkampf.
Muzzy says:
May 13th, 2006 at 9:18 am #11 – pilobilus! Are they still around? Saw them three or four times in various venues. Fantastique!
BobbyG: Which, if any, of the Cirque shows in Vegas are best suited to 7 year olds?
Note to all: I NEVER, EVER reported that there would be 22 indictments so please stop perpetuating this urban myth. This is the genesis of the 22 indictment story. I have no idea why you all continue to say that I reported this. Again, I NEVER DID. Here is the link and the genesis of the 22 indictment story. The urban legend is out of control. It’s really hurtful to my work. Here is the genesis of that story. The actual link from the very first time it was reported so you can share with the Kos community. It’s the second item from the top. This is who reported it not me. Never did.
http://www.radaronline.com/the…../index.php
Resume piling on.
jason leopold — thanks for trying to clear up the confusion over the 22 indictments rumor of the past. At that time, maybe after a couple of days afterwards, I started doing basic web searchs for “22 indictments” and it turns out this or a like-near number of indictments were handed down in the RYAN case. I suspect in the excitement over Fitz!! and our hopefulness the rumor evolved. I’m sorry for any negative impact to you, but really appreciate your effort to clarify the facts. Thanks for your work.
“…,the Judge tells Team Libby that he is not buying their theories on bringing the entirety of the rationale for the war in Iraq and the Administration’s foreign policy decisions into this courtroom as a means of defending Libby.”
Gee, what does Team Libby think that courtroom is, a Congressional hearing or Senate committee conducting a thorough investigation into the megalomania behind the Iraq War?
Megalomania? Remember, Team Bush has stated that they don’t do “nation-building.” Some people assume this to mean they don’t interfere in other nations’ affairs. Nope. The megalomaniacal Team Bush is involved in “world-building,” based on some neo-con wetdream. And they will tear down as many nations as necessary to achieve their neo-con orgasm of world domination. Things could get messy…or at least messier than things are at present. Duck!! Incoming!! We all may need protective body armor before this is over.