Obviously David Shuster’s report on Countdown was based on what happened today in the Libby case. But if you read the accounts of Bloomberg, the AP and the Washington Post, you have to wonder — were they all at the same hearing?
Olbermann, on Countdown:
And movement in one of the other major scandals’ investigations underway in the capital, Scooter Libby denied access to records documenting Ambassador Joseph Wilson’s trip to Niger, and a revelation that in July 2003 Libby was warned about the potential damage of outing Valerie Plame’s name and identity. The judge also signaling that the prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s investigation into Karl Rove might be nearing the close, noting that he expects resolution in the forseeable future of the problem of documents in the case that have been withheld because they touch on Rove, and because he is part of an ongoing investigation.
It’s rather remarkable that none of the three aforementioned news organizations felt this was worth noting. Libby spoke to Miller on June 23, July 8 and July 12, 2003; he also spoke with Cooper on the 12th. The CIA’s Bill Harlow has said he warned Robert Novak sometime around July 11 (or before) "in the strongest terms he was permitted to use without revealing classified information, that Wilson’s wife had not authorized the mission and that if he did write about it, her name should not be revealed." Was Scooter also warned around this time?
Other weirdness, from the AP:
Wells added that Libby was told several times to go forward but abruptly told to stop before he finally talked to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward and The New York Times’ Judith Miller.
Wells added that Libby was told several times to "go forward?" With what? Team Libby has stated that neither Bush nor Cheney told him to leak Plame’s identity, and the Washington Post claims Woodward testified that he never spoke to Libby about Plame so this must be in regard to the NIE or the other documents Libby was ordered to leak. But it looks like Bob Woodward was in fact a pit stop in the War on Wilson. Wouldn’t it be nice if Woodward actually wrote about what he knew of this story (as any journalist would) instead of running around calling Patrick Fitzgerald a "junkyard dog" without any acknowledgment that he was elbow deep in this shit? Cocktail weenies abound.
Crooks & Liars will have the video up soon and it includes a blockbuster about emails between Rove and another administration official regarding "Wilson’s wife." More soon.
(photo courtesy Bartcop)
Update I: Crooks & Liars now has the clip up, and it includes the following:
[A]ll the other attorney’s are talking about evidence and there was evidence mentioned today involving documents and memos of, from Karl Rove to another administration official about Valerie Wilson. If they’re talking about documents and memos as opposed to the Stephen Hadley email that Karl Rove wrote, in other words, if there are other emails or documents that would suggest that perhaps prosecutors have an even stronger case to suggest that Karl Rove didn’t have memory problems, he was willfully trying to avoid remembering certain things to the grand jury, but we’ll see pretty soon I think.
But the Hadley email didn’t include any information about Valerie Wilson. If documents were discussed regarding memos between Rove and another administration official that mention her, that’s news.



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Fitzeramus.
fitz!!!
I EPU’s myself, but only b/c my computer at home has that really slow typing thing going on – I am not the self aggrandizing type (I am, but still, it wasn’t on purpose)
Sorta On Topic
Kazuza baby!
Glad to see that BULLSHIT is finally gettings its due, and I am not a Universe screaming into, well, the vast void of my spacetime. Welcome to the world of criminal defense (the non TV/movie real world version).
I will also go on record that Scooter pleads out (whether to lesser charges I don’t know – but a Universe can hope). The only benefit he and/or Chimpco would get out of a trial is Wilson truth/Chimpco lies about the war spin related. A trial on Scooter’s perjury alone gives them very little (i.e. nothing) to spin/play with. So, once the Judge shoots down all their ludicrous, ridiculous motions, the show is over for them. Then it is just the Chimpmin lies played out in a trial dominating news coverage for weeks at a minimum. There is a long time til trial, and the Judge will “humor†them for a while cause they ain’t gonna stop w/the BULLSHIT. But the Judge will end it at some point. And that is when Scooter will plead.
That is my omniscience for today; tomorrow’s might be different.
This is it, people. LOVE the title of this post. To that end:
From an MSNBC poll, “The souring of the nation’s mood has accelerated in the past three months, with the percentage of people describing the nation on the wrong track rising 12 points to a new high of 73 percent. Six of 10 conservatives say America is headed in the wrong direction.”
I love the smell of tea leaves in the morning.
Olbermann and Shuster = awesome
Local news in Chicago all lead with talk of the Kennedy accident, followed by the news from the Ryan trial. Didn’t see this mentioned ata ll.
I’m hoping we don’t have a “terrar” alert on Monday. Seems like the media is distracted enough as it is.
The Shuster video is now up at Crooks and Liars.
As for Rover. I’ve always thought he is going down for the perjury type crimes, and I am still all in on them all – at least more than Scooter and Rover – going down for conspiracy.
My question is (and this is at least one way I am self aggrandizing) – Does Fitz have the mysterious emails re: Rover/Wilson? Is the source of their existence something that was filed with the Court or argued there? Were they just discovered or are we just learning about them now b/c of the tight ship run by the good Fitz? Which (and this is the self aggrandizing part) would support my oft stated theory that Fitz has had a lot more evidence than we or anyone else is aware of for a very long time. I demand answers.
Jane,
LOL seeing that picture, ’cause it reminded me of this:
Back in the very early 80s, when video games got beyond pong, the first one I got addicted to was called “Frogger.” Your frog had to make it from one side of the stream to the other by hopping a series of lily pads other critters and logs, etc.
I think our frogger is about to be plopped into the river, hauled out, dried up, trussed up and frog-marched out of the White House.
And here we are, slowly turning the heat up………
ok, folks. I have to go play loud, treacherous punk/metal music with my band.
Tech support questions should be emailed to me and I will get to them after the gig.
Hope everyone is reading Raw Story with no trouble now.
If not, check the last few comments in the previous thread on how to change your DNS servers to ones that are able to properly direct you!
I think the Hindenberg is in trouble.
I have no clue why I can’t get links to work here properly, but in your post under this one Jane, a comment was made linking to CanOFun:
http://www.canofun.com/cof/for…..?tid=15017
You can view Shuster’s Countdown report there.
OK
I’m looking for odds. Who thinks Irving’s gonna flip?
Time for the betting pool!
(an entirely fictional betting pool b/c no on le lac de chien fume would EVER engage in illegal gambling. No no no, us aussie shiraz sippers only enegage in the intellectual exercise involved in computing those odds.)
Will we get access to the transcript of the court proceedings today?
I think the Hindenberg is in trouble.
Oh, the huge manatee…
Karl Rove looks like a very evil baby. Shudder.
EPU’d
Just come back and heard CNN report that Goss quit after 20 months on the job.
Sigh.
Why am I not surprised?
A Gay Man Contemplates Rove’s Future
Could be!
Who knows?
There’s something due any day;
I will know right away,
Soon as it shows.
It may come cannonballing down through the sky,
Gleam in its eye,
Bright as a rose!
Who knows?
It’s only just out of reach,
Down the block, on a beach,
Under a tree.
I got a feeling there’s a miracle due,
Gonna come true,
Coming to me!
Could it be? Yes, it could.
Something’s coming, something good,
If I can wait!
Something’s coming, I don’t know what it is,
But it is
Gonna be great!
With a click, with a shock,
Phone’ll jingle, door’ll knock,
Open the latch!
Something’s coming, don’t know when, but it’s soon;
Catch the moon,
One-handed catch!
Around the corner,
Or whistling down the river,
Come on, deliver
To me!
Will it be? Yes, it will.
Maybe just by holding still,
It’ll be there!
Come on, something, come on in, don’t be shy,
Meet a guy,
Pull up a chair!
The air is humming,
And something great is coming!
Who knows?
It’s only just out of reach,
Down the block, on a beach,
Maybe tonight…
Oh the Sean Hannity.
Rumors around the intelligence community indicate Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s indictments against Karl Rove, Richard Armitage, Bob Woodward are imminent while status of Bush/Cheney sealed indictments is also being discussed as to when they will become public.
As the Colbert thank you messages approach the fifty thousand mark on http://www.thankyoustephencolbert.org….
Bill Maher fails to acknowledge the White House Correspondents Dinner even took place let alone make any mention of Colbert’s brilliant satiric monologue.
Pach#12,
and when the shoe finally drops,a good graphic for the story would be the cover of Led Zeppelin 1.Background music?Dazed and Confused,or Your time is gonna come.Rock on,Rover!
“Wells added that Libby was told several times to go forward but abruptly told to stop before he finally talked to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward and The New York Times’ Judith Miller”
Who told Llibby this? Only BigTime was in a position to give Libby marching orders. Or did ROver/ Conjecture?
Dana Priest’s article on Goss is out on the Wapo front page now.
Having already seen how the press reports in important respects bungled the coverage of the February 24 hearing – and it has to be tough to try to follow a fast-moving, highly technical hearing like that, so no insults to the press intended – I am skeptical of all the coverage. But I’m especially skeptical of Schuster’s report about the meaning of what Libby’s defense lawyer said about Libby being warned about Plame. There was, apparently, one rather cryptic remark, and the rest is just Schuster speculating (avowedly so). I’m not saying there’s nothing there; I just would like to see the transcript for myself.
The same goes, more or less, for the remarks about Rove. It’s 90% Schuster trying to interpret what was going on. Note the crucial qualified “If” in Schuster’s report. I’m not saying there’s not something there. But it’s hard to tell if there is from Schuster’s report.
And the AP reporting on Libby going forward did have to do with the NIE. AP and Reuters both devote a fair amount of space to that issue, and it appears (though that’s as far as I’ll go) that Fitzgerald did not get testimony from Bush and Cheney on the issue of authorizing Libby to disclose parts of the NIE, though Fitzgerald appears to agree that they did so, though maybe it’s just that Fitzgerald is not going to contest LIbby’s contention at trial, as opposed to positively agreeing with the accuracy of LIbby’s account of BUsh and Cheney authorizing and thereby declassifying the release of parts of the NIE>
DMM:
ssshhhhh!!!
Don’t betray my plans!
CA’s Deputy Director of Homeland Security on PBS doing the fear thing for California.
I really hate to give the WaaPoo a hit by going there,is it worth it?
http://tinyurl.com/a6erq
HELP IMPEACH TODAY
1) Please sign petitions if you have not done so
2) Write Congress
3) Write the media
4) Get your family and friend involved, ask them to chip in time.
5) Spread the link out… Post it on a blog, or in some comments.
Thanks :)
Well today was my 22nd wedding anniversary.
What a great present the Goss resignation was.
Went to see Syriana with Mr. Bionic. Walking up to the movie theatre I was explaining to him about today’s antics and how it was like having ring side seats to read the blogs.
He doesn’t get my extreme interest, (He calls me a junkie, but in a nice way.) but I guess he does listen.
In one scene in the movie, with whom he presumed was the CIA director, he whispered “He’s like the guy who resigned today?”
Mr. Bionic. So cute.
oh tom-chicago —- great rumors — sounds incredibly wonderful.
Wasn’t Wally Hindenburg a linebacker for the Vikings in the ’70s?
Is it just me or does Scooter walk like a weirdo?
Wally Hilgenberg
Bill Maher fails to acknowledge the White House Correspondents Dinner even took place let alone make any mention of Colbert’s brilliant satiric monologue.
The latimes had a piece on colbert and talked to maher to get his reaction. He didn’t watch the program. i think somebody’s long lost his mojo and it annoys the piss out of him that he rarely gets any attention, as Colbert and stewart have surpassed him in the relevance of their work.
Is the frog part of the pic from Spirited Away? Where did you get all those bath tokens from, Sen?
Karl better watch out for the Preznit’s firecrackers…That picture reminds me of a firefighter toast:
“Here’s to the frog on the mantlepiece, who set his ass in red hot grease; something something something (help angie!), Here’s to the frog with the french fried ass….”
And if Foggo resigns next week, does that mean we’ll never get to see the photos of Goss with Gannon sitting on his lap?
Pach,
Oops,did I just leak?That was no secret,all the reporters were talking about it…
Oh, brit hume’s bland, isn’t he?
This is just too tantalizing…I’ve felt all along that Fitzgerald was just playing out the line and would reel Rove in when the time was right. Based on what we’ve heard today, I think that time is fast approaching.
Between the Plame affair, The Spies Who Loved Us (my title for the tell-all the hookers will write), the mess that is Iraq, Jack Abramoff, and God knows what else, I think the Perfect Storm is brewing and the Bush’s ship of state is going to sink like a stone.
…/groan
from the WSJ online, linked by Josh Marshall…
Well I’m confused. but abruptly told to stop before he finally talked to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward and The New York Times’ Judith Miller.
If he was told to “stop” then why did he talk to Woodward and Miller? I’m assuming that is all about the NIE, as they haven’t made the claim yet that he was authorized to leak Plame’s identity. But if he WAS told to “stop” why didn’t he?
Too confusing.
I don’t think Libby turns – I just see him having faith in the ultimate relief. His workdays were spent rubbing shoulders with folks like Elliot Abrams . Be nice if he did though.
I still keep wondering about Ralston and how she fits in – like a coupler between the Plame matter and the Abramoff investigations. ??
Is there any way to portray Rove as a frog w/o sullying Miyazaki?
Thanks.
bkny says:
May 5th, 2006 at 8:50 pm- (36)
I did read the item in the L.A. Times today…and the fact that Maher was completely disinterested in the story…However, I expected better. It is very disappointing. I agree with you it is a question of a wounded ego…
looseheadprop:
why do you think Scooter will flip? Because the whole graymail thing isn’t working out and he’s sure to be convicted?
He doesn’t trust Bush for a pardon?
So W. as a boy, used to put firecrackers inside frogs and blow them up.
He could just turn really spiteful and refuse to forgive anyone because he’ll think they let himdown.
The beauty of it all, that which makes angels sing, is that two men at the direction of ‘HRO others’, guilty of perjury and obstruction establishes a basis for a conspiracy to obstruct on the part of the detestable WHIG. And so fall all unsustaniable ungraciously organized designs.
PBS DANA PRIEST ON NOW
That AP quote is confusing me too, but I think Wells is trying to paint Irving as being jerked around a few times before being given the ultimate go ahead by a superior…”before he finally talked to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward and The New York Times’ Judith Miller.”
(I call him Irving, because I bet he hates it.)
Help me please. I’m sure FDL did a post about Randall Sambourn, where ( I think Jane ) asked him a snarky question over the telephone, and he said something like “I’m a non-speaking spokesman so I don’t want to ruin my reputation by answering that”. I’ve google site-searched it but can’t find it. Does anybody have the link please?
harry — yeah I did talk to Samborn but it wasn’t snarky, it was a very nice conversation. I almost got him to make a comment. He was very good humored about it. Search under his name in the search box on the side.
to chip – I agree with you about the terra alert this next week. or maybe the big pandemic will arrive right before Fitzs press conference indicting Rove….if the CIA director abruptly resigns, gets fired, what ever you want to call it, then something big is getting ready to go down. Furthermore, if something happens in this country of any detrament to the American public any time soon, people will be storming the WhiteHouse. This administration knows the wheels are falling off. Nobody will believe them
Tom #21:
Are you shitting me – richard armitage!? and woodward — hahaha. fredo and cheney — sealed indictments.
seymour hersh did say that patrick fitzgerald was the last hope to save this country.
Jeff — The thing about the tea leaves does seem a bit of a stretch based on the judge simply saying that the document situation vis-a-vis Rove will be cleared up soon, I agree.
But Shuster talks about the existence of documents and memos FROM Rove TO another administration official that mention “Valerie Wilson.” If such documents exist, the case for Rove’s “I forgot” defense just got a whole lot weaker.
Does anyone know anything about this rumor?
re: Watergate hotel records were subpoenaed this past Wednesday.
I agree about Ralston. I’m sure she’s right up there with Rosemary Woods and Fawn Hall.
Does anyone know anything about this rumor?
re: Watergate hotel records were subpoenaed this past Wednesday.
Watergate Subpoenaed in Hooker Probe
By Justin Rood – May 4, 2006, 7:33 PM
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000551.php
49777 Thank Yous for Stephen Colbert since April 30th.
If you haven’t …do it…
http://www.thankyoustephencolbert.org
OKAY, OKAY! So when does the courtroom transcript become available for all are consumption and divination? :)
Jane.
It doesn’t come up when I search for randall samborn. Half a dozen posts do, but not that one.
does anyone know whats happened to Rawstory?
Thanks bkny @ #60.
BTW, moseyed over to WaHoPo and didn’t see an article by Dana Priest. Do I need glasses?
Hey from Nebraska! Conversation going on among local folks near me about how the government can follow everything they do on the computer now, and no privacy. Nebraska.
Oh, and a big howdy-do to the NSA staff! Keep up the good work. We love ya, we just want you to follow the Constitution. You know, like good Americans?
Seeya round in a couple days.
———egregious
I took care of my family for a few hours and watched a basketball game (Wizards loss :( ) and you kids have been having way too much fun without me!!
Item 1:
In modern parlance, the women/men/other are referred to as “escorts” instead of hookers.
Item 2:
I’m starting to feel a little creepy, the Westin Grand is outside my office window and I worked for a while in the hangar at National Airport where SHirlington Limo has the office (see tpmmuckraker story). Enough!
One thing I can tell you for sure is that the capitol is going to be crawling with reporters on Monday. I can imagine there are quite a few young scribes out there who really, really want to break the dirt on this story. I will be personally learning more about the Iran situation in the august chambers of the JH School for Advanced International Studies (unless I get a better offer to attend the Last Hurrah at the Westin).
In any event, I look forward to the Rove indictment so we can get back to focussing on sex scandals like good American prudes. And remember the defense plan: “They weren’t hookers, it was rape!”
peace,
jim
sunny says:
May 5th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Thanks bkny @ #60.
BTW, moseyed over to WaHoPo and didn’t see an article by Dana Priest. Do I need glasses?…
Click on the “print edition” on the top of the page. It will take you there.
Dana Priest’s story is up at the WP
The Fix-It Man Leaves, but The Agency’s Cracks Remain
OK found it. Thanks anyway. Link here for anybody interested.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..spokesman/
Mike Allen and Tim Burger at Time report:
Now, I don’t get this. Either Goss was grossly unprofessional (what, he couldn’t wait a week?) in a *very* public, impolitic, way — or someone is lying.
And yet, WaPO, NYT, etc. are all reporting similiar stories, without much skepticism, as if from a trustworthy source.
I wonder how many of these SAO’s were fed, and believe, the same crock of shit. That could explain the MSM response. Obviously it would only take 1-3 people to put out the story.
I suspect it might be a week or two until we find out why Goss really resigned.
JGabriel -
I don’t get it either. No one probably wanted to leave quicker than li’l Scotty, and he stuck around. There’s something bigger behind this.
At the moment I’m getting “awaiting resolution” on rawstory which says to me that there’s some serious DNS issues does anyone know are they hosted in Florida? There’s one hosting company there that’s been the target of DOS attacks recently.
damn … I stayed at the Watergate a few times – you could get rates of like $80 a night on hotwire for a while (haven’t been in DC for a bit so not sure if it’s still avail) and it seemed just oh so quiet!
taking a break from ykos stuff – keeping up the fdl volunteer rep there – great crew, great plans – as Christy said, don’t miss the hotel discount deadline of 5/15
Does anyone know anything about this rumor?
It’s true. I saw a Watergate hotel rep confirm it on TV a few days ago.
mark#73:
Earlier this week, wayne madsen called out a unit that had been traced as the source of a hit on his site. Pretty interesting:
Ed. note: Yesterday, WMR was warned by a reliable European source that there was unusual access activity detected regarding our web site. Fifteen minutes later, our server, which also supports other web sites, temporarily went down. But we have the identity of the source of the unusual access activity: the US Army’s 5th Signal Command in Mannheim, Germany. Two component activities of the 5th Signal Command — the 2nd and 7th Signal Brigades — appear to be involved in information warfare operations and influence operations. Note to 5th Signal Command operators: by hacking into U.S. computers protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, you are in potential violation of Federal law (the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, Section 1030, US Code, Fraud and related activity in connection with computers). If your Commanding Officer, Brig. Gen. Dennis Via, authorizes such illegal hacking, he is in violation of the law and it is your duty, pursuant to Army and DoD regulations, not to obey such illegal orders and report them to the Army Inspector General — 1-(800) 752-9747, 1-(703) 601-1060 or DSN: 329-1060.
May 3, 2006 — More on WMR hacking. WMR has learned that one of the primary “intelligence support” contractors for the US Army’s 5th Signal Command in Germany, which was identified as a source for unusual activity relating to our server, is ManTech International, which performs various intelligence related functions for the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies. It is headquartered in Fairfax, Virginia.
Rawstory fixes (maybe) at the end of the last thread. Also, try this (in Windows):
Start-> Run-> cmd-> ipconfig /flushdns
Valerie signs low 7-figure book deal with Crown Publishing Group and plans to tell “almost” all:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12653226/
markfromireland- rawstory has been down since this afternoon.
motherlowman – I agree. There is something bigger behind this. A really nasty backstory. does anyone know if these prostitues were male or female? any news on that?
did anyone see Inside Man with Denzel Washington – seems to end with G.H.W. Bush as being the real inside man. Did anyone pick up on that?
I hate to bring down a perfectly good thread,but has anyone seen this yet?(from Think Progress)
http://www.news.com.au/story/0…..98,00.html
WW3?WTF???
hmmm . . . interesting day; here’s my take.
DCI Goss is not directly linked to the ForniGate scandal — i.e., poker and hookers and that stuff, not so much. The corruption that ForniGate bought? Porter Goss was the go to guy.
Nominating AF General Michael Hayden to be the next DCI? An attempt to brazen it out, and expand their dictatorial powers; not a bad move under the circumstances. A feeble attempt to shift attention away from ForniGate — but it does nothing to restore Dubya’s credibility. Good luck buddy on that one.
Rove? Multiple indictment handed down on Wednesday, and a Fitz presser on Thursday.
Okay, there may be a God after all. This Constitutional crisis we’ve been living in for the last six years (or is it 25 years?) may be finally coming to a close. Let’s not forget how this happened.
Repubelicans…sure, that’s easy. It’s the enabler Dems that are the real problem. These names need to go away for good – Gore, Kerr(e)y, Clinton, Feinstein…you know the rest. They have been complete failures to liberalism. What’s my proof? One word -
Shrubya.
Go get yer cushy consultant/speaker/CEO fees and leave us alone. Yes, I am counting the eggs before they hatch. I’m just so damn anxious, aren’t you? This state of affairs must never happen again.
Boxer, Feingold, Sanders, et al are more than ready to lead. Step aside Bob Shrum. Please.
It’s time for some triangulation strangulation. Can I get an, “Amen!”?
Porter must have been caught with a live boy, a dead girl, or a farm animal. This nonsense about a rift between him and Negraponte is nothing but short-term spin. So much excrement hitting the fan this month I can hardly stand it!!!
Yes I know W-I-T and for it to go to “awaiting resolution” means there’s some very serious DNS issues. What I asked was if anyone knew whether they’re hosted in Florida as one particular hosting firm that carries a lot of political sites has been the subject of repeated DOS attacks.
Amen.
to Duktig Pojke: “Porter must have been caught with a live boy, a dead girl, or a farm animal.”
gosh, I needed that laugh. thanks.
waiting in texas asks:
“does anyone know if these prostitues were male or female? any news on that?”
Why should that matter? Over a period of ten or more years, I suppose there would have been lots of both.
Dana’s story makes Goss sound like a total failure- a guy completely over his head. So why did it take nearly two years to can him? No one paying attention?
Notice the developing story line Negroponte and the new chief of staff start looking under the covers of the White House and discover crawly creepy things that no one has paid any attention to. Shocked- they start to try to clean things up- but the idiot who made the mess in the first place is still in charge..
This is the emerging story of the Clusterfuck presidency.
It may not be the truth- but it’s what we are being led to believe.
to Ed*ard Teller:
just asking – Jeff Gannon comes back to life recently and then this. timing questionable thats all.
I think we get indictments next friday- with a presser to cap off the day..Have a good weekend Washington?
Goopers have to be tying on their hats to keep the tops of their heads from exploding. It just gets worse and worse for them. Total incompetence- like a genetic defect.
Tuesday for indictments
Given how kinky republicans seem to be waiting in texas shouldn’t you have included hermaphrodites in you list? ;-)
Josh is busy this evening. No doubt happy, too.
Here’s a chart from tomorrow’s WSJ on the “shakeup”:
CIA Director
Porter Goss
T.B.A.
Chief of Staff
Andrew Card
Joshua Bolten
Budget Director
Joshua Bolten
Rob Portman
U.S. Trade Representative
Rob Portman
Susan Schwab
White House spokesman
Scott McClellan
Tony Snow
Deputy chief of staff for policy
Karl Rove*
Joel Kaplan
Director of faith-based initiatives
Jim Towey
TBA
director of bald faced lies? Still Rover?
Nobody resigns from their job out of the blue unless they’re way pissed off or they are exposed. In Porter’s case, it could be both. He may have been shown the goods on his enabling for Wilkes, Wade, etc. He may have been furious that Bush and Negroponte thought he sucked at his job. Bush and Deadeye and Hummer want more power. The only way they can do that is to put Hayden in the seat. Presto! No more backtalk about intelligence and no more questions about their justifications for starting up a new preemptive strike.
Clusterfuck obviously viewed the little problem with the CIA as a political problem- they were disloyal. So he sent a conservative politician to solve it. Turns out that the politician couldn’t manage his way out of a brown paper bag. How’s a president to know a thing like that?
Still- Goss did a heck of a job.
Josh is still working away and his latest post is about the Federal criminal investigation of Foggo. His link is to WSJ article (there’s now a 10-day free viewing over there)
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/
to markfromireland:
:)
Gor – waving hi – Raw Story is not completely down – just unreachable over some nets (for example, I can hit it just fine) so I’m guessing the problem is elsewhere?
DMM – that is one scarey quote – Bush seeing U93 as the first battle of WW3 …
$439Billion is current cost of the war per Mark Shields on Lehrer, etc (listening in the background)
ck #81:
“Nominating AF General Michael Hayden to be the next DCI?”
That guy is now one of the top guys in the NSA, right? Wasn’t he caught lying, er… being truthy several times on the FISA/NSA spying scandal? Is he interim, or permanent appointment? If there need to hearings on Hayden appointment, we should send some love notes to Dem committee members. Don’t you think?
Greatest. Post. Title. Ever.
Tom @21 — is there more where that came from? I’m a schoolboy — teach me, teach me!
siun,
Make that $439.1 billion. Oops, had to go unload the dishwasher. Make that $439.15 billion.
hungrycoyote #69
thanks for the Dana Priest link – there is a lot of explosive information in her article – Was it a compendium of previous reporting ? how much of it was already out there ?
I knew about the key resignations and resignations in general – but what about his neglect of foreign intelligence sourcing ? I was unaware of that – has that been reported ? I knew he was a partisan enforcer, but he was an incompetent partisan enforcer, Jeebus
EEK!
Stop the Sean Hannity.
-Susan Powter
Goss did get the “heckuva job” attaboy from Bush today. Let’s see if Bush gives Rove a pat on the back on Monday. If he does, it is curtains for the pale and past flabberman.
-GSD
No self respecting hermaphrodite would be caught with this crowd, Goopers wouldn’t have a clue what to do with all the choices involved.
mercury,
Actually, the title confused me. “Countdown to Ecstasy,” with Rove in one of his frog suits, but not the one with Jeff’s semen stains that Porter Goss was fired for keeping in a closet next to his Nazi regalia.
I thought Jane was going to tie in the attention to Goss and Fitz to the attention to Patrick Kennedy, hence the ecstasy.
ET … awww, what a little $.15B?
Eeking Gor?
Jeesh. General Hayden reminds me of Leadbottom from McHales’ Navy. Only much more dangerous.
A little creepy to know that Bush is now bandying about the WWIII shit-talking too.
Maybe that is what is prompting Deadeye Dick Cheney to fire up the Cold War again….you know the good old days.
-GSD
Sunny @ #58 – Yes the records were subpoenaed. Josh Marshall at TPM
sent one of his reporters down to DC yesterday and he visited The Watergate. The Assistant Manager told the reporter that their records had been subpoenaed.
Coming from Josh, that’s reliable.
101 wesgpc –
More on Hayden, via TLC –
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007580.php
Looks Like Rummy And Shooter Will Get Direct Control Of The Agency
Click the Eek! link Siun they’re a pack of shameless hussies ……
markfromireland says:
May 5th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Re: # 105
Mark, that is known as a Texas Breathalyzer Test.
Whoof.
-GSD
MFI 105 – eek! is right!
what in the world is going ON in that picture??
GSD,
They were showing the good general on TV a while ago. A clip of him testifying to a congressional committee with three stars. Then another of him in front of the same people with four stars and a whole new row of ribbons to boot.
I guess this proves that if you suck up enough with these people, promotions come very quickly. As if we didn’t know that at fdl already…….
Josh Marshall –
WSJ got the goods. Kyle “Dusty” Foggo, #3 man at CIA, hand-picked by Porter Goss, is under federal criminal investigation in the Wilkes-Cunningham bribery and contracts scandal.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..008383.php
ET,
That extra star was a listening device.
-GSD
siun,
speaking of the 439 billion, a little humor from The Onion – “NASA announces plan to launch $700 million into space”
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47977
There’s an advertising slogan for a brand of very low quality vodka over here GSD:
“Smirnoff leaves you breathless” …
and I’ve just found this from the oh so respectable Der Spiegel
#115, see #114.
-GSD
GW Bush comment on WWIII: scary thing is that nut statements like that show that Bush is really nuts in a lot of ways. I think at some level he really believes most of the junk he spouts. I saw a clip of him bragging about the new job numbers today. He looked like he really believed what he said about it showing a strong recovery.
The job growth numbers stunk. 138,000 is about 12,000 short of where we need to be to keep up with average monthly growth in number of job seekers. Job growth never really took off since the recession and we are back in big net deficit of where we should be. Unemployment rate probably low because so many of left job market. For example, disability retirements are up. But Bush spoke with real conviction about how good job report was. He probably has flunkies carefully cropping graphs of job growth to show how good the number are now (compared to the truly lousy numbers of two years ago.). Except for corporate profits, this is the worst recovery since WWII. Period.
But I think Bush believes. That will keep his bas higher than is safe. Bush believes so he will never betray his lies, because he doesn’t understand they are lies. On most things, we will never see that little beat during which a liar realizes and reveals that he knows he has been caught lying. You know, that quarter of a second where you can see the liar pause, gather himself, and think through the next strategy.
Being completely incurious helps too. 138,000 IS big, but compared to what? 3000 a month would be way big, for Estonia, since the population is only 2 million.
At some level Bush believes, or believes he is uttering “true lies†and that is what makes me nervous.
OldCoastie it’s either something horribly kinky because Bush and Rove are both republicans OR it’s public proof that Bush is so incompetent that he has to have it held for him when he takes a leak.
(Or both of course …. )
Mark, Dick looks remarkably robust in that shot. . I never noticed he had such big bags under his eyes. The pic must have been taken after a hunting trip, he looks stiff.
-GSD
markinireland,
re: EEK!
no, that’s just a direct data feed…..
mfi – I think I agree with the Texas breathalyzer test…
;-D
We need to give Josh Marshall an extra big hat tip and hug at this point. I’ve been reading tpm for almost as long as Josh has run the place, reading his Washington Monthly articles too. But the way he expanded from tpm to the cafe to the muckraker site is as important to the progressive web as anything going on out there.
Josh and Laura Rozen were the first credible blog journalists to not only smell a rat (Justin Raimando and whatreallyhappened beat them to it, but over half their sources were twilight zone places) with the Niger forgeries, but to do very hard and time-consuming gumshoe detective work on the subject.
And on the tie-ins between Cunningham and this soon-to-be-unveiled blackmail ring (yeah, it is about blackmail, not sex), Josh is perhaps proving himself to be the most important American journalist of the past decade.
With the muckrakers site, Josh has actually created one of the most effective investigative tools in recent DC journalism. Compare his costs – which Josh points out aren’t insignificant – to the amount folks like WaPo.com spent on sheer idiocy and mendacity, and you can visualize the incredible power of the web.
Awww woudya look at that it’s the vice presidential press secretaries Mr. Flabber and Mr. Ghast.
ck #112, thanks for link to the WaPo story. I don’t believe this though. Might be true, could be true with this crew… but still doesn’t make sense. Bush lost confidence right from the beginning? I read articles by very harsh Bush critics, like Larry Johnson of No Quarter blog, keeping an open mind. But then I should remember that is a mug’s game trying to figure out what is plausible with a bunch of totally incompetent totally dishonest fools.
“But senior administration officials said Bush had lost confidence in Goss, 67, almost from the beginning and decided months ago to replace him. In what was described as a difficult meeting in April with Negroponte, Goss was told to prepare to leave by May, according to several officials with knowledge of the conversation.”
Foul! Never should Rove and Miyazaki meet.
To get serious for a moment Dick and Rummy getting direct control might be a good thing in a perverse sort of way. It could well cause an orgy of very nasty stuff being made public by some truly furious spooks. Putting people like that in a corner where they’ve no choice but to fight is never a good survival strategy.
Wes,
That makes sense for the Decider. He lost confidence in Goss right off the bat, so he figured he would leave him place for 18 months to continue to fuck things up in the CIA.
Heckuva job.
-GSD
I think the Hindenberg is in trouble.
Oh! The humanity!
Ed*ard Teller @ 128: Agree with you 100% and that’s why we should always go over to TPM and follow links from there. As we all know, site traffic is important for his advertising income.
GSD: Yeah, I guess. The Decider is also very much the Insighter and the GoodJudger too. How many dudes have fired for supposed incompetence. And then when they lay some of the blaem on the administration, they smeared by admin sources to have been known incompetent goofballs from day one. O’Neil. The faith based charity director. HeckuvaJob Brown. Snow. Who else?
Countdown to Ex-VP
GSD,
Bush, after the cameras stopped today:
“Heckuva job Porter, now would you live up to your name and help pack up the mikes and cables and cameras.”
E*Teller: I do agree. The thing that I value more than anything else is accuracy. I don’t have enough time to have to deal with misinformation and sloppy reporting. TPM is reliable. When it makes mistakes, those get corrected asap. What turned my off to New Republic was that fact that it became too sloppy and unreliable, much more than its growing foreign policy neoconservatism. I have no problem reading good faith views that I disagree with. But sloppy on the facts really puts me off. TPM is a great site.
OT.
A ship with 750 aboard is on fire near England.
Also a helicopter in Aghanistan has gone down.
In America, the G.W.Hindenberg is fully involved and heading for the ground.
-GSD
“were they all at the same trial?”
Jane, I think you mean “at the same hearing.”
Libby’s trial begins in January.
you can visualize the incredible power of the web.
Yes, and with excellent sites like FDL, we can take down the whole corporate press Establishment. It’s just a matter of technology, which will someday make web content (including video) easily available to everyone on their TV.
punaise,
As I’ve watched you work your verbal magic here, I wondered for awhile “does punaise make this stuff up, or have a remarkable memory for puns and word games?” I’ve come to realize that you have a facility with subject matter here that couldn’t be borrowed. You just make that incredibly good shit up. At least as much as I can tell.
Do you ever bring us puns from somewhere else? I hope this doesn’t come off as dense, because I’m one of those people who marvels at friends who have a repertoire of jokes and one-liners, so I can seldom tell if a joke or pun is a classic from the past or a flash of inspiration from a minute ago.
Steely Fitz
And I remember that I had a huge disagreement with TPM, since I am sure Marshall reluctantly supported the Iraq invasion. I forget now whether he changed his mind before the invastion or not. But the facts were accurate and analysis unbiased and Marshall always honest and argued his opinion in good faith. So I kept reading even if some of his posts on Iraw made me grind my teeth.
GSD
I understand the Leadbottom comment, but ask: Does that make Snotty McClelland Ensign Parker?
Moving on to rhetorical question: is there a special security clearance for escorts in DC? If not, should be.
Hmmm. Some tea leaf reading, based on the published remarks today. This is more wild-assed guessing than anything else.
1. Fitz has Libby dead to rights on an IIPA violation. It seems like not only did Libby know that Plame was covert, but there’s now mention that he was specifically told not to reveal her identity. The IIPA requires that you know that the government is taking affirmative measures to protect an agent. If the government is specifically telling you not to identify an agent, that would count as an affirmative measure, and the fact the you’re on the receiving end of the information implies that you know this. (The only defense here would be: “Just because he said it to me doesn’t mean I heard it.”)
2. Libby and his team were expecting an IIPA charge. In fact, they STILL don’t seem to realize that Libby hasn’t been charged with blowing Plame’s cover.
3. Best guess: The original offer to Libby was to plead guilty of violating the IIPA and testify against everyone else in exchange for a reduced sentence (two years, say). Libby and his lawyers thought they could beat the charge, so they refused the deal. Fitz then turned around and hit Libby with lying/perjury/obstruction charges. I think the lawyers were totally blindsided by this. Wells has more or less admitted that his case is virtually indefensible. And now Libby’s REALLY in trouble. The best deal he’s likely to get now is to plead guilty to all of the current charges AND to an IIPA violation (and maybe conspiracy) AND agree to testify against everyone else. Or he can risk being convicted on all counts and rotting in prison for decades. To top it all off, the value of any testimony that Libby can provide is rapidly losing stock, since it looks like additional indictments are forthcoming. Libby has gambled once against Fitz and lost. His team has lost every major motion they’ve filed so far, and their chances of winning any of the pending ones look slim. Any bets on whether he’ll gamble with proceeding trial? Because he KNOWS Karl will do just about anything to save his own ass.
ET – couldn’t recite a real joke for the life of me. the word play is stream-of-(sub)consciousness stuff, just skimming the top of things. Things probably bubble up from elsewhere, who knows. Now as to those who really bring substance to the table (Mr. 143 included), I doff my hat. That is, if I had a hat, I’d off my hat.
The FEMAnization of the CIA.
My “Write You Own MasterCard Commercial” Entry:
High priced call girl:
$1,000Paid for by lobbyist;Limosine:
$75 an hourPaid for by lobbyist;Hotel Suite in Washington, DC:
$600 a nightPaid for by lobbyist.Being a Republican Congressman on the take:
pricelessPaid for by lobbyists.You can play too.
dropping in late, so I haven’t followed the discourse. in any case, TPM is rock-solid in my book.
punaise,
“just skimming the top of things?”
punaise planes at the plame blog?
see, you do it best. At puns, I’m hapless and hatless.
Punaise, I’ve never thanked you for the high-order word-master relief you always provide here. And I’m not going to, since about a third of what you pull off is over my head and that humbles me. As Keanu Reeves said, “Look. There are smart people, and there’s dumb people. I’m one of the dumb ones, ok??” Some people are just gifted. Are you a copy editor in real life, or are you Lewis Lapham’s alter ego? It’s ok, we won’t tell.
EPU:
Photos of Rep. or Sen. whoever with the hooker(s)?
Beyond priceless.
I am going out to celebrate. Why? I don’t know. This Goss fellow doesn’t need no stinking reasons to do stuff, so I don’t need any either.
But I want to suggest one of my Bright Ideas before it slips my mind. I think it came to me because I am jealous of the people who have time to do the book club every week. I don’t think I will because I am too busy with commitments I can’t drop right now. So I would like periodic discussion sessions that I could prepare for and participate in with less time commitment.
So the idea is for FDL, or designated commenter to pick the most dishonest, bad faith, noxious or dangerous opinion piece or analysis in media for a given week. FDL does online discussion analysis and (by some mechanism to be determined later) FDL pulls together discussion to produce a response, or counter analysis. Then sees if it can get it published or at least get it some notice. Might be a quick way to do some good in the world. Even thought I love to bash centrist Dems, might be most useful to concentrate on Bushite flunkies.
I am looking forward to the discussion of the book on conservative movement a couple of weeks from now, but don’t think I’ll have time to read more than a few chapters, so won’t have that much to say.
Sticky Stickler – you are right, changed.
Wells has more or less admitted that his case is virtually indefensible. And now Libby’s REALLY in trouble.
Frank Probst — I agree. And I should acknowledge the real art work that took place today. Byron York actually managed to spin this like it wasn’t a full-on disaster for Libby. That took incredible creativity.
F Probst #148.
1. Agree.
2. Disagree. They know, but they don’t have anything else to throw out there.
3. See my post way at the top. I don’t think his lawyers were blind sided – I think it is a common tactic of prosecutors, conspiracy cases in particular, to charge certain crimes to induce cooperation (nothing speical about that here even if it does involve national security. I don’t think there is a chance it goes to trial. The issue will be whether Scooter pleads and cooperates for reduced charges/sentencing recommendations, or simply pleads to the charges. A trial does nothing for him WRT Chimpco or for him personally.
still recovering here from MFIs eek
(shudder)
Ed*ward Teller @ 128
Absolutely, and well said.
And he is a gentleman to boot. Really an admirable person, his thoughtfulness and balance come across in every line.
For those who have not yet watched the ‘911 Loose Change’ video, it is a MUST SEE!! The link is listed below:
http://video.google.com/videop…..3762628848
It is time for Americans to get clued into how extensively we have been lied to and manipulated.
Please take the time to inform yourself and pass this information on to others.
off to watch “Network” with my wife. we’ve never seen it……
have fun ET – it’s quite a movie!
As to the possibility of a Bush indictment, it’s not clear to me whether or not that is even possible — even if he was clearly culpable. According to a 2000 Justice Department memo:
” In 1973, the Department concluded that the indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions.”
http://www.justice.gov/olc/sitting_president.htm
However, in this article from last October, Richard M. Mathews argues that a sitting President can be indicted despite the position of the Justice department memo.
I am not familiar with Mr Mathews and I’m not a lawyer so I can’t determine if Mr. Mathews’ opinion has a good legal basis or not.
I would be very interested what those of you with legal backgrounds think of Mr. Mathews opinion.
It seems pretty clear though that a president who has left office can be indicted, prosecuted and, if convicted, sentenced according to the law.
FDL is the best place to get the news because it’s safe from governmental propaganda, whether said propaganda stems from our government or any other — if tpm wanted us to go into iraq just as nyt & wp did, then no amount of sophistry can persuade me that tpm is propaganda free
Another reason to prefer FDL has to do with artistic sensibilities: for instance, huffpo fell victim to the note’s hamfisted satire about tony snow, which proves that huffpo has a tin ear & is thus out of touch
Jane Hamsher says:
May 5th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
Wells has more or less admitted that his case is virtually indefensible. And now Libby’s REALLY in trouble.
Frank Probst — I agree. And I should acknowledge the real art work that took place today. Byron York actually managed to spin this like it wasn’t a full-on disaster for Libby. That took incredible creativity.
———————————————————-
Well, it won’t really be a full-on disaster until the judge officially rules. But York gets creativity points for pointing out that Wilson didn’t deny the defense’s irrelevant claim that they had “about five” people who would testify that he talked to them about his wife. I’m still waiting for them to give us about five names, but I’m not holding my breath.
ET 153
planes at the plame blog?
recycled again:
Snarks on a Plame
(coming to a theater near you this summer)
you’re all too kind… eyes on the prize folks, as Fitz pries the truth from these lying guys:
“you can’t hide, you lying guys”
wow, another Eagles reference, two in one evening. whodathunk.
(MarcLord 154 – architect, go figure)
now back to our regularly scheduled programming….
Live long and propagate:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/…..ling_down/
Annie Hall @162,
saw 911 Loose Change, was impressed with the treatment. I was in NYC at the time, drove past the Towers on the West Side Highway 15 minutes before it happened. Was going to a meeting at AT&T Labs, got in the car and realized I forgot to shave, said screw it, and drove unimpeded into New Jersey, listening to The Pixies.
In Manhattan, you could smell the mephitic vapors of burning metal for weeks. For months in restaurants and bars you could hear people debating the firefighters’ stories about explosions coming from the WTC basements, talking about the streets shaking before the buildings fell. That’s why most people who live or work in Manhattan think 9/11 was an inside job. The story doesn’t square with the senses.
O/T about Poor ol’ Porter: He’s scheduled to give a commencement address Saturday in Tiffin, Ohio. As of late afternoon, the speech was still a go.
ck: “WSJ got the goods. Kyle “Dusty†Foggo, #3 man at CIA, hand-picked by Porter Goss, is under federal criminal investigation in the Wilkes-Cunningham bribery and contracts scandal.”
Didn’t we already know that, for the last what? 1 – 3 weeks? Or at least suspect it?
The problem isn’t *why* Porter got fired — there are tons of reasons for that, Dusty included.
But why *now*, and why so suddenly, with so little notice and so little preparation?
All the reports from NYT, WaPo, LAT, Time, etc., even Larry Johnson, suggesting that Goss’s resignation has been a topic of discussion between Negroponte and Goss for weeks now, it’s not credible. It all addresses the *why*, and not the why *now*.
Something particularly funky must have come to light within the past 72 hours. I wish we knew what it was.
On the one hand, there’s a valid argument that it couldn’t be that bad, or else Bush wouldn’t have allowed Goss a closing photo op. On the other hand, the surprise and suddennes of it suggests that it must have been something really egregious that the administration is either trying to cover up, or get in front of so it doesn’t kick them in the balls later.
Oh, well. Undoubtedly someone will find out, or figure it out, and report it within the next week or two. I suppose we just have to wait until then.
Have fun Ed*ward. I’m listening to the replay of Real Time with Bill Maher I missed earlier.
As punaise says, he’s a ‘designerer’, a hilarious take on what he’s brilliant on in real life. He truly is a talented genius. I’m delighted it carries over into his lightning wit, we’re so blessed.
Larry Johnson on the Goss exit:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/m…..ss_re.html
That’s why most people who live or work in Manhattan think 9/11 was an inside job. The story doesn’t square with the senses.
We must know different New Yorkers. I am a native, and was living in Manhattan at the time and was there on 9/11. Most of my extended family live in NYC and I would say I also know a lot of other New Yorkers having lived there most of my life. I have, as previously posted, a blood relative who lost her husband, and another blood relative who survived, and know some more people who lost immediate family. I have never heard any New Yorker I know state they thought it was an inside job.
I just think that is a very big statement to make regarding what “most” New Yorkers think happened.
PS – You could still “smell” 9/11 as far north as Canal Street in March 02, and I would bet after that too.
At #22, ceci says:
“Bill Maher fails to acknowledge the White House Correspondents Dinner even took place let alone make any mention of Colbert’s brilliant satiric monologue. “
There was actually a very brief mention of this when Kim Campbell talked about the Canadian PM going in front of the house to be yelled and screamed at weekly by people who aren’t trying to help him. Maher said quickly something like “The US has the White House Correspondants Dinner” – an oblique reference to the Colbert perforance.
Jane Hamsher @ 11:08 pm (#158) – Normally, this would be the time they make some sort of deal. I don’t see that happening here, so what’s next? A pointless trial that will last weeks?
With that depressing thought, I’ll say goodnight.
I can’t imagine the White House allowing Rove to testify in public, where he’ll face a prosecutor that knows the answers to all the questions Rove would be asked.
I think we’ll see pardons first.
Wacko 9/11 conspiracy theorists need help.
Hunter said it well today:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..41831/6987
MarcLord: “In Manhattan, you could smell the mephitic vapors of burning metal for weeks.”
I have to somewhat disagree with this statement. I live a little below 34th & Park, and I only noticed the smell on one or two days. In Manhattan, it was mostly localized below Houston.
The wind was largely blowing east for most of the 2-3 weeks after 9/11 and it was Brooklyn that received the bulk of the air pollution. It seemed like the entirety of B’klyn stank for at least a month or two.
Oh please, not another 911 thread hijack.
Don’t feed them, just walk on by. Please…
EPU,
The link below isn’t even the survey I’m thinking back to, but it’s from a cursory Google search, was done by Zogby and illustrates the basic idea. There was a poll of NYCers which showed stronger “inside job” opinion. Our social circles would naturally vary.
On 9/15 I had brunch with several friends up-town who still worked for investment banks, and they already knew about the suspicious UAL and American Airlines put option activity which led back through Alex Brown to Deutsche Bank and Saudi Arabian hedge funds. They also noted that the director of Alex Brown & Sons, Mayo Shattuck, quit his job on 9/12, and related that his mentor was Buzzy Krongard, former deputy director, CIA. AT&T Labs staff noted that Odigo (an Israeli SMS server company affiliated with Comverse) staffers in the WTC were warned to not come to work that day. I can’t anecdotally account for all New Yorkers, but my experience was far different from yours. My wife’s cousin is a firefighter from Queens who was there on 9/11, I went to his wedding in October and heard his co-workers discussing it in their cups.
I don’t know for a fact what nags what percentage of New Yorkers in what way, but the story doesn’t hang together for most of the people I know there, and it doesn’t hang together for me. I stand behind my assertion despite cognitive dissonance.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855.
For those interested, TPMm has a few late wrap-up posts:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/ar…..ookergate/
MarcLord >”…the story doesn’t hang together for most of the people I know there, and it doesn’t hang together for me…”
The Offical Story violates, in several places, the laws of physics
Make of that what you will or not
“There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph. All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth.” – Richard Avedon
Way OT, but the mention of 9/11 conspiracy theories makes me ponder. Why is it, with our borders soooo porous and our ports essentially unprotected have there not been ANY terrorist attacks since 9/11. Why not? Given our current stance on every foreign policy, we certainly aren’t garnering more love and affection from the evil doers out there.
Not one attack. Not even a little suicide bomb on a bus.
Does this seem strange to anyone else from a 50,000 foot view?
Normally I am vehemently anti-conspiracy theory – agreeing with the sentiments in Semblance’s 179. But there was no attribution to a celebrity, such as, say, Jeanine Garofalo, and MarcLord is not a troll.
Sometimes coincidence is just coincidence.
And with that I’ll stop.
i’m a manhattanite & disbelieve the official tale
from a lurker and Semblance,
I hope you aren’t trying to call MarcLord a troll, he’s been here for ages. As you can see just in a few short messages of NYC’ers things are perceived differently for one reason or another, and that’s perfectly fine.
I for one don’t believe this MalAdministration version of 911 and I don’t mind it being discussed especially in late night threads, it’s what a scroll button is for just like I scroll past the sports references that I don’t give a shit about. Nothing ads up about 911 and it will be discussed for decades whether we like it or not.
Statements like: “Wacko 9/11 conspiracy theorists need help” is what doesn’t help. It’s a valid and crucial topic that we can’t help visiting from time to time with all the vast mounds of documentation and research out there, and more details of the secrecy coming to light everyday further makes it difficult to discern the truth of what happened but discern we must, and be allowed to discern without being called wackos for questioning it one way or the other. Thanks.
From the Wolfman and Jack Show:
BLITZER: That report from John King earlier here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
And we contacted the former U.S. ambassador, Joe Wilson, for his response. He says the case isn’t about him, it’s about whether Louis “Scooter” Libby lied.
And Wilson says this. Let me read it to you. “The special prosecutor believes several White House officials were engaged in a campaign to discredit, punish and seek revenge on me. It would appear that that campaign is ongoing.”
Larry Johnson hears that Duncan Hunter is in trouble.
JohnnyB – B/c 9/11 required incalculable luck/chance, and Al Qaida is not SMERSH or even KAOS, despite Chimpco’s attempts to elevate them to that level and create the perception of a massive group of evil genuises hiding in every container shipped to this country ready to kill you. In that sense, Al Qaida, or more accurately, the alleged threat of Al Qaida and terrorists to our safety in any manifest way, is a creation of Chimpco.
Chimpco created the terrorist bogeyman on the doorstep as a political marketing ploy after the fact. The smarter play, if the goal was to actually deal with terrorism, would have been to “marginalize” it in the FDR “nothing to fear but fear itself” vein.
From the same Wolfman and Jack Show:
Listen to FRANK GAFFNEY’S B.S.
The former CIA analyst Ray McGovern confronted Rumsfeld during that speech, accusing the administration and the secretary of defense specifically about — of lying about the war. He’s joining us now from Atlanta. And here in Washington is the former Pentagon official, Frank Gaffney, who’s a supporter of the defense secretary and the policy involving the war.
Gentlemen, thanks to both of you for coming in.
Let me play — well, actually, before we do that, I want to get both of your reactions to Porter Goss’s sudden announcement today that he’s resigning.
Ray McGovern, let me start with you.
What do you make of that?
RAY MCGOVERN, FORMER CIA ANALYST: Well, he was never the man for the job. We don’t need a partisan politician leading the intelligence establishment.
He also had found it a very difficult job. You know, he was used to going down to Florida on Thursday, coming back on Tuesday, and he himself admitted that it was a little too much for him.
So I think it’s good that he’s left and I would say good riddance.
FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: What do you think, Frank?
GAFFNEY: I think he’s an able man and I think he confronted some of the kinds of partisan intelligence operatives that we saw Mr. McGovern exhibiting yesterday. And, more to the point, I think he confronted an entirely impossible bureaucratic situation shortly after he arrived, having a new guy put in as the director of national intelligence, who quickly set about trying to eviscerate many of the functions of the director of Central Intelligence. I’m surprised he stayed as long as he did, to be honest. BLITZER: All right, let’s move on and talk about your exchange, Mr. McGovern, yesterday with Donald Rumsfeld.
Let me play a little clip of that. We’ve seen it, but let’s just listen to this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were.
RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were…
MCGOVERN: You said…
RUMSFELD: … and we were — just let…
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were, near Tikrit, near Baghdad and northeast, south and west of there. Those are your words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And we did check and those were, in fact, his words, as you precisely pointed out.
I’ll play that little clip from what Rumsfeld said on “This Week With George Stephanopoulos.”
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM “THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, MARCH 30, 2003, COURTESY ABC)
RUMSFELD: We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But Mr. McGovern, if that’s what the CIA told him, if that’s what George Tenet told him, we know where they are, and George Tenet is quoted by Bob Woodward as saying that this was a slam dunk, the weapons of mass destruction, if that’s what Donald Rumsfeld and the president were told, they weren’t necessarily lying, they were relying on bad information.
MCGOVERN: Well, that’s QED, Wolf. That’s what needs to be demonstrated. As you know, Secretary Rumsfeld set up his own little CIA within the Pentagon. It’s there that he got this wonderful information about the procession of weapons of mass destruction. It wasn’t from the CIA.
And I’d like to quote Hans Blix, who said that is what’s very odd that there was 100 percent certitude that there were weapons of mass destruction and zero percent certitude about where they were. Only Donald Rumsfeld claimed that he knew where they were.
BLITZER: All right, Frank, what do you think?
GAFFNEY: Well, I think QED may be lost on most people. I think what you just said is exactly right. Donald Rumsfeld did not have his own intelligence operation. He had people who were going through intelligence that had been provided by the CIA and other collectors.
And, by the way, that was the shop that identified hundreds of links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein’s regime, not operational but suggestive of cooperation, something that Mr. McGovern yesterday said was a lie.
He also, I think, did rely entirely upon the Defense Intelligence Agency, the CIA and others for information about the status of Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, as best we know it.
And here’s the point, Lou — I have to say, Wolf. We understand very little about closed societies. We do the best we can to penetrate them, to understand them. We had no agents on the ground, apparently, in Iraq.
But what I think Donald Rumsfeld said at the time could have been completely correct and, as we now have increasing evidence, what happened subsequently was Saddam Hussein moved stuff across the border into Syria.
BLITZER: Well, let me ask Mr. McGovern…
GAFFNEY: That’s…
BLITZER: … if he believes that.
GAFFNEY: That’s not a lie by any stretch of the imagination.
BLITZER: You spent a career in the CIA, including briefing presidents, including this president’s father. You were one of his daily briefers.
What do you say to Frank Gaffney?
MCGOVERN: Well, I say that our country invests billions and billions of dollars every year into the most sophisticated imagery, satellites and intercept satellites one can imagine. And the difference, the sea change since 1996 is that Donald Rumsfeld controls the imagery and the analysis of that imagery.
And so in the old days, if one of these reporters or one of these emigres said there’s a chemical weapons factory here at Point X, we would have a photograph of that and we would say don’t pay this source anymore, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Rumsfeld controlled that whole thing. And so if he wanted to make the case that there were weapons of mass destruction, there was nothing to disprove it because he controlled not only the collection mechanisms, but the analysis of the imagery, which is a sea change from the way it used to be prior to 1996.
BLITZER: Mr. McGovern, when you said yesterday that the defense secretary lied, do you want to revise that in any way or are you standing by that?
MCGOVERN: Well, I was talking about two things. One was the conflation of Iraq, Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. This was a deliberate misrepresentation. The CIA found no evidence that there were any operational ties between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. And the whole effort was meant to deceive the American people into thinking that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, and they succeeded, because 69 percent of the American people during the war thought that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, have something to do with 9/11.
So that was the — that was the egregious lie.
And what Paul Pillar, my former colleague who retired just at the end of last year, the senior intelligence officer on the Middle East, what he said the day before was very telling. He said the administration expended great effort in trying to prove this. And, of course, there was no evidence to prove it. And when Don Rumsfeld said that…
GAFFNEY: Can I have a word, please?
BLITZER: All right.
MCGOVERN: … when Donald Rumsfeld said that the evidence was bulletproof and Scowcroft was saying that it was scant, they were both wrong. There was no evidence.
BLITZER: All right, we got — we’re out of time, Frank.
I’ll give you a few seconds to wrap it up.
Go ahead.
GAFFNEY: I’d appreciate a measure of equal time.
You had the director of Central Intelligence who had access to overhead information just as before. The information is not sufficient when things are hidden and buried underground and otherwise concealed.
What I believe Donald Rumsfeld and the president were doing, in good faith, was taking the best information available against the backdrop of terrorists and their ambition to do great harm to this country, to act prophylactically to protect us against further attack.
I think, in hindsight, and with the advantage of what we’re going to find out more and more and more about of what Saddam Hussein did with those weapons of mass destruction and what was his relationship with these al Qaeda operatives, maybe we’re not going to be persuaded that it’s operational, but it certainly was cooperative. And that, I believe, was sufficient grounds for acting as the president did. BLITZER: All right, Frank Gaffney and Ray McGovern, a good discussion.
Thanks to both of you.
MCGOVERN: Thank you, Wolf.
GAFFNEY: Thank you.
BLITZER: We’ll continue it down the road.
Hey, its late!
But is Cheyenne, wY on drinkin’ liberally or what?
Woohoo!
You know, I’m sick and fucking tired of people who don’t want to examine 9/11 because it might put stretch marks on their comfortable asses. The jury is still out.
Yes, it smelled steadily in Brooklyn, where I stayed on the east side of Park Slope with my wife-to-be, her two cats, and her dog. Yes, it smelled like burning metal when the wind shifted northwards in Greenwich Village three weeks later. My wife’s high school classmate and her kids, aged five and two, camped in our 800 square foot apartment as refugees because their windows were blown out in Park Place across from the collapsed Towers and their gramma went insane. That classmate innocently took $15,000 in FEMA money, was taken away from her children and spent 3 months in jail for witch-hunt fraud after cops spied on our apartment. Yes, my former boss and 3 of my friends died because they were stupid enough to have a breakfast meeting in Windows on The World or get in early to work and read the Wall Street Journal at their desks. Yes, it’s too bad that my wife, her dog, and I breathed the air and have to take asthma medication, and that her cats Gilbert and Floyd wasted and died of respiratory cancers within a year. Yes, 19 itinerant shitheads taking courses in Cessna 182s and playing Flight Simulator defeated the best air defense system in the world. No problem. I’m a conspiracy theorist. You got me.
Feed your intellectual cowardice with whatever it yawns for, and be comforted by incessant emptiness. As the Bush Adminstration is so fond of saying, the world is different now. Switch off your mind and senses, you keepers of rationality. Just don’t feed another 9/11 hijack thread, don’t think fuck-all, just walk on by. But recognize that people who are stealing from you and the world benefited from the events that changed our country on 9/11 and made the absolute most of them. That’s all that matters.
“…and a revelation that in July 2003 Libby was warned about the potential damage of outing Valerie Plame’s name and identity.”
==
Yeah, let’s go big on this one.
WARNING: wild ass speculation to follow swallow at your own risk…
Mid-Spring ‘04 — CIA Director George Tenet gives Fitz the CIA’s damage-assessment of the Brewster-Jennings outing: US intel on Iranian nuclear program set back 10 years.
Tenet also tells Fitz that, in July 2003, he told both Bush and Cheney, to their faces, that the collateral damage of the War on Wilson was a serious breach of national security, and grave consequences would follow should Valerie Plame be outed.
June 2, 2004 — Tenet meets with Bush and outlines his testimony to Fitzgerald. Bush says he’s no longer CIA director. Tenet advises Bush to seek legal counsel. After that meeting, Tenet resigned “for the well-being of my family,” and Bush hired a RICO specialist Atty. James Sharp.
–
A hypothetical question: How would the Secret Service handle the protocol of guarding a man in jail?
okay, bye bye!
Chalk River goes boom, boom:
http://www.cfra.com/headlines/…..&cat=2
So soon after eastern France:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/ne…- explosion.html
Be very careful with that stuff.
…geeeesh…spend a day in bed with back spasms (weed pulling!) and come back to news breaking all over the place…what’s real/what’s not? …no access to RawStory, does anyone know what’s up with that? Next week will be a lulu and we’ll all be depending on Jane to sort it out…
http://www.time.com/time/natio…..77,00.html
How much blackmail material are these guys compiling?
We gotta fight Hayden — HARD
Here’s a gentle reminder to thank Ray McGovern if you haven’t signed this yet:
http://thankyouraymcgovern.org/wordpress/
Oop better links:
http://www.cfra.com/headlines/…..&cat=2
and
http://www.signonsandiego.com/…..osion.html
Erm Jane,
Have you thought about the dread pirate Aftergood and his thoughts on the matter.
http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/
MarcLord–
My 82-year-old roomate in the hospital recently had this to say about Bush and 9/11: “Didn’t hurt him none.”
(Also said “I don’t see his girls over there fighting.”)
I think there are lots of skeptics in this country.
MarcLord, I was on/off staying with my friend during that period in NYC (way uptown), and yes it did smell terribly. And everyone had a different idea on what it was. I remember NYC seeming bleak and isolated. And proud little Italy and Chinatown restaurants having discounts, cause not even the B&T folks were coming. No amount of hype can change my opinion that BushCo through neglect left NYC a vulnerable and lonely place at that time.
And the sheer insanity of it is that you will find people in NYC like my sister who swallow BushCO hook and line, based on emotion, not realizing how badly exploited those emotions were, because as far as I am concerned all Bush did was hang out with a bunch of fireman for a photo op and then left everything that should have been done, undone. I can’t help but feel that Clinton or Gore would have done much more for NYC. It amazes me the excuses people still make for BushCo.
For the two cats alone, one of the troika deserve ankle bracelets.
I hope and pray that Team Fitz is encrypting everything and paying attention to traffic analysis and surveillance. Also that they have back-ups off-site with ‘ ship containing information circling the globe’ as per re-mailer motion with periodic check-ins. ( See the scenario in Tom Cruise movie about lawyer in Southern Law Firm,’ The Firm’. Cruise uncovers mob banking activity. John Grisham bestseller, this smart, fast-paced 1993 film–directed by Sydney Pollack )
Speaking of back-up’s – traffic here could spike through the stratosphere next week. Do we have at least two back up sites where we can assemble for swarming?
Gyro Gear Lo*se #191
Rumsfeld and Bush are condoms.
You’re kidding. Welcome everyone to new morning!
Used condoms.
Ah, the smell of sauted fog legs in the mornings.
Maybe not a lumberjack breakfast, but good enough for DC Plutocrats and their minions of lackeys to feast upon.
Better than Crow.
Saw on one post Pottie Gross is involved in
election fraud along with Katherine Harris in FL..
Bush’s Brain was at the top of it all with VP and POTUS..just wonder what Libby will do when the money runs out….
they never learn do they
they will all have their turn in the barrel
The schadenfreude will be orgasmic.
206 – condoms
207 – lumberjack breakfast
208 – Katherine Harris
209 – orgasmic
excuse me while i get ill. yuck.
Just installed RealPlayer (older ver/Mac System 9 – thereby ending personal boycott. Guess which vid I played first? HINT: Found n C/Span. AKA – “The Spy Out In The Cold.”
————-
Wow. ‘blanked’ myself for a bit. Cinquo de Mayo indeed.
Bush blathinering code like ‘reorganization’ and crap.
Rummy’s getting more cards in play.
Libby and Rove.
AND a military appointee for the Watergate Sex Scandal Spymaster and his Number Three.
Will ANYBODY in the Senate raise hell in confirmation hearings.
Oh…don’t forget another Kennedy drunk driveing scandal. Played on Sat. TODAY alot.
——
TICK
http://www.bushslastday.com/
TOCK
—–
Whitehouse now reminds me of Jerry Pournelle’s column in old Byte magazine:
“Chaos Manor”
‘Morning all. Down here in NC it’s a glorious spring day, but I sense that, somewhere, the aspens are turning.
They’re connected by their roots, you know.
Anyone up for an over/under bet on Gannon outing Rove?
so many over/unders these days, we need Vegas to put up a page, or maybe even better, the reservation casinos.
Abramoff might appreciate the irony.
As Foxwoods tag goes:”The Wonder of It All.”
——-
virtual ‘Snoopy Happy Dance’
Tommy #213
not being a gambler, i’m guessing you’re talking about who’s the bottom — don’t you think rove would be under? — he looks quite unmanly — bet that’s why bush likes him: he makes george look fit
undercoverdick,
I was talking about a certain kind of bet, one I now realize I know nothing about, and which elicits a disturbing mental image.
Shoulda waited for that second cuppa coffee before posting.
Is it possible that the whole point of Goss’ abrupt removal is to give W and his Dick one last shot (ie, before the GOP gets slammed in Nov) at getting thru confirmation a pliable director, one quite comfortable with the various nefarious activities of this admin’s intel folks?
Tommy Yum #213:
The aspens have reached a turning point.
Great job by John Ford at 24 digging up the cryptic ‘Libby was told to stop’ quote from the Houston Chronicle. A more complete excerpt is this:
The prosecutor also said he does not know when Bush and Cheney decided to declassify sections of the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate dealing with Iraq’s efforts to obtain yellowcake so Libby could share it with reporters.
Fitzgerald said all he has is Libby’s testimony, in which he said he might have shared the information with reporters before the decision was officially made in July 2003.
Wells added that Libby was told several times to go forward but abruptly told to stop before he finally talked to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward and The New York Times’ Judith Miller.
One might infer they were discussing the NIE leak and not the Plame leak (but not if the reporter is David Shuster, who has had a lot of trouble with the NIE angle to this story).
FWIW, a recent defense filing indicated that Libby testified repeatedly and unequivocally that he was not aware of Plame’s classified status (And Fitzgerald did not iondict him for perjury for saying so…).
Anyway, the notion that his own lawyers would contradict than in open court and throw him under the bus seemed odd. But maybe the Libby Defense Trust missed a payment.
These events (specifically Jane’s timeline summary of Rove and his Fifth Grand Jury appearance) has inspired me to dust off the clay tablets and see if I can apply a chisel properly.
My System 9 partition has Hypercard, but I’d have t kludge a solution of of hacking pre-designed stacks. Can’t create on-the-fly.
Better bet is ClarisWorks 4.0 (AND I have the Manual (RTFM = Read the F*ing Manual.) Office product solution h/t Rayne.
Lastly, the System 9 partition allows installatiion of various useful tools onto either Newton MessagePad 2000/eMate 300.
I favor the NMP2k (if only for the nomenclature and house cred). However the eMate’s keyboard functionality make it the primary player. It can be used to update the ‘Tricorder’ via IrDa.
——-
Now, I think I’m off to see if RealPlayer has a version compatible with this OS X 10.2 platform. Gotta get my fixes of CSpan and NESN (local cable news online needs Real)
Good morning. There was some discussion last thread, late last night, about the upcoming (today) Washington Post article by Dana Priest Ibelieve.
Then read a poster commenting that someone at the WH had gotten to the paper because the article was less than promising. Anybody got anything more on this ’supposed’ barnburner? Could not find a refernce on Kos. Wasn’t it Dana Priest who said yesterday we (the American public) would have to wait until tomorrow (today) to find out why Goss resigned?
I need a new news ‘fix’.
I’m late to this discussion, so it might have already been asked….but, in the post, Jane quotes
“revelation that in July 2003 Libby was warned about the potential damage of outing Valerie Plame’s name and identity.”
Why did Libby get this specific message? Did the CIA give him a memo with every NOC’s name saying the same thing? What triggered this memo (or statement) and who communicated it to Libby?
Well, if you haven’t seen it. The Bush War is spinning from tragedy to horror.
A US chopper–Huey I think–crashed in Afghanistan killing all 10 US troops on board.
In Iraq, a UK chopper went down in Basra and prompted scenes eerily similar to the much seen “Black Hawk Down” incident of book and movie fame in Mogadishu Somalia.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/art…..86,00.html
This is what the scandals involving Decider Bush, Shotgun Cheney, Crumby Rummy, Goss and Duncan Hunter and Karl Rove and Scooter Libby is all about. Day by miserable day we are reminded that the Bush administration wanted their war with Iraq so badly that they were willing to lie to start it and were willing to destroy the reputations, careers and lives of anyone who was willing to try to bring reason, sanity and facts to the debate.
-GSD
Alas, GSD.
For the neocons, progress is measured by size of the body pile.
Have yourself a Merry Little Fitzmas,
Let Your heart be light,
Next Year all our troubles may be out of sight!
!ztiF
It’s delicious new thread time. Now, scurry on over, or stay in the EPU’d Zone, relax and post at your leisure. No time pressure here. Nope.
Thread regulars, please consider leaving definitions (preferably with a link, but howsoever you wish) for new FDL readers here:
Glossary of EPU Terms and Other FDL Culture Things
I have no idea if this will catch on, after all the EPU’d Zone is only an experiment running for just over two weeks now.
–
GSD the chopper that went down was a Chinook, not a Huey.
–
Jio,
Thanks.
-GSD
I hope that the folks in Congress will ask Hayden pointed questions about the 4th Amendment, if for no other reason than to see if he’s actually read it in the six months. (Understanding it is perhaps too much to ask for.)
any chance we could get sharkbabe to liveblog the 10th race from Churchill Downs this afternoon?
I am so working hard to catch up to those of you who have been on this Plame case since the start. The one item I cannot find is the missing piece to my puzzle. Would someone fill me in on why Bob Novak is not indicted? How did he get the info to write his piece when he used the Plame name? I know this is probably old business – but until this puzzle piece is in place – the question just nags me. Thanks for the help.
Novakula wasn’t indicted because he sang.
Thanks to the NYers for your stories. My friend from Brooklyn was here in MI at Xmas and I visited her at her mom’s. She was too ill with the flu to go out but since I only see her once a year at most, I chanced it. Luckily I had a three week break from school because I DID catch whatever she had and was miserable for a week. Turns out she had to postpone her return trip home since she ended up in the hospital. I bet her lungs are more vulnerable thanks to the air from Sept 2001. The air the EPA lied about.
rusty she’d be more than welcome here in the EPU’d Zone.
Or, better yet, she could appropriate any EPU’d Zone in any previous post going back to March 1. She’d post the link to that Zone in a current thread and members of the commentariat could follow her to read her liveblogging of the event. It’s another wonderful way the EPU’d Zones could be utilized.
Did you see where Jane, late in yesterday’s Late Nite FDL EPU’d Zone, gave her, not quite full-blown, approval of such usage?
–
Jane fully realizes the possibilities.
GSD,
I once pulled 7 guys out of a Huey that crashed after being slowed down a bit by triple layer canopy. It was my first mission as a baby-faced 20 year old.
Everytime I hear about a helo going down, time compresses all the way to the point when that mission happened only yesterday.
It sounded like this helo just fell out of the sky. Did that once, too. Not fun.
–
I once pulled 7 guys out of a Huey that crashed
7 guys or the remains of 7 guys?
Thanks for the info on Novak – just couldn’t figure out – and of course I saw nothing in the msm about his roll. He seems like the snake that would play behind the scenes till the fire gets too close to him – then he does what ever he has to do to cover his ass. I think he’d even sell his best friend down the river let alone his own mother!
ck — All survivors on that mission but lots of fractures & blood & stuff. I found out quickly how well morphine worked. Like turning the sound down channel by channel on a sound board.
–
Ed N Sted at 165
There are different issues of immunity in play. Government employees enjoy qualified immunity for acts done while working for the government. (In some instances absolute immunity, but I won’t discuss that now).
With qualified immunity you are immune from suit for your official actions. Not all actions are official. Because of this distinction, Agnew could be charged for tax evasion, that was a private act not an official act.
I beleive Cheney could have been charged (facts permitting) for assault for shooting Wittington. IIRC the charges against Arron Burr, mentioned in the article you linked to were unrelated to his official position at the time.
Also crimes (or in the case of Clinton, torts) that predate taking office do not evaporate once the officeholder is sworn in. Clinton made an arguement, which seems to be the same arguement made in the rehash of the 1973 memo of law in the first article you linked to, that the time suck and the distraction of participating in a lawsuit would fataley undermine his ability to do the demanding job of president and should entitle him to a “stay” untill after he left office.
As we know from the Paula jones case neither of those arguments prevailed, except to the degree that the judge exercised VERY strict control on the number of hours he could be deposed and actaully sat in on the depositions to make minute by minute rulings.
While I’m sure all of these possibilites were discussed during the charging conferences amoung the prosecution team up until now we have seen a very conservative approach by Team Fitz.
I’m in the middle of a case with immunity issues right now. You would be surprised how many otherwise competent federal judges struggle with immunity analysis, or how often they seem to get it wrong. There is a long trail of conflicting caselaw out there, not a clean clear area of law at all.
A government official’s qualified immunity stems from the government’s own sovereign immunity. the government cannot be sued at all unless it consents to be sued. Our government spells out in statute the areas in which it consents to being sued and has set up a seperate branch of the courts, the Courts of Federal Claims and it’s own appeals court which sits in DC.
markfromireland posting on the current thread says he goes back to the days of DARPANET and JANET. He’s trying to help TPTB free up band-width. Cool! More for us here in the EPU’d Zones.
But more than that, and in keeping with thinking about war missions long ago, I’m brought up short reading his real-time serious blog Go take a look.
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markfromireland link to current comment thread that didn’t took.
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MarcLord @ 1:29 am (#193) – Since you’re so into intellectual honesty, let’s take a look at the intellectual content of your comment #193. It consists, entirely, of an ad hominem attack on anyone who disagrees with you. We lack courage, intellectual honesty, and small asses. There is no actual argument, just insult.
I’ve written many times in this forum why I find nothing wrong with the “official” version of how the buildings collapsed. You can look them up here and on haloscan. You can search the engineering societies’ sites on the matter, and the NIST’s. I’m willing to bet that the only thing you’re familiar with at any of those resources is the exaggerated, nonsensical version promoted by the conspiracy theorists.
There’s a word for people who put forth nonsensical arguments and then insult anyone who disagrees with them. They’re called cranks. What I am “sick and fucking tired” of is cranks.
FREE the bandwidth! 300dpi? holy cow, that’s not good.
Actually, I think Mark’s serious blog is this one.
Cujo359,
All I did was agree with someone who drew attention to a 911 documentary and got called a troll. I said the jury is still out for me. It’s the lack of patience for examination that I have no patience with. There was no nonsense in my argument, only anectode, and I cited no “resources” other than my own direct experience. And there was no ad hominem attack on any particular person at all. But now this is ad hominem, “Cujo” is a bullshit moniker, and I’m not suprised that you’re spewing bullshit.
Anyway, the notion that his own lawyers would contradict than in open court and throw him under the bus seemed odd. But maybe the Libby Defense Trust missed a payment.
Tom Maguire — yes it is oddd, I can’t think of a context that could make revealing this seem like a good idea, nor does it make any sense that nobody else would report it. Reading the various reports of this hearing is truly schizophreinic.
J i O — thanks for putting all that together. RBG hasn’t been around for a while he’s putting this stuff together for a glossary for the sidebar so if you see him around (or if I do) flag him down.
Much appreciated.
Cujo359, I don’t dispute the offical version. I do dispute the idea that Bushco is anything but incompetent. And there are people out there that think BushCO is competent, still. Not to mention they apparently promised money and left NYC in a hole.And that godawful grandiose picture that was to my mind merely exploitational.
Cujo359 and MarcLord. I think both of you have been around forever. can’t you play nice?
Disclaimer: I am not a New Yorker. Just a tri-stater.
If the Chicago Lyric Opera company doesn’t commission some American composer to write an opera about this drama, now unfolding, it will be a greatly miss opportunity for some fantastic art and music!
EPU: aren’t you an artist? Isn’t this just the biggest piece of theatrical material you’ve ever seen? Right up there with Iran-Contra, and Nixon?
And we are all sitting on the 1st row of the upper balcony, where we can see a little bit, and hear, okay, but the details are still obscure.
MUI @ 250 – Word.
Okay, why did Goss hire Foggo to be #3 man at CIA?
Was Goss already compromised and had to make the hire or was he looking for some of that loot from Foggo’s friend Wilkes?
Any thoughts?
rusty right you are. Thanks for catching that.
Jane, thanks but I’m (we’re?) just foolin’ around trying to find MacGyver-esque solutions to pesky little situations. The Late Nite FDL EPU’d Zone would be an ideal place to meet and greet newcomers to FDL-Land. If just a few thread regulars hang-out here on and off during the day we could make folks feel quite at home.
Sounds like RBG is doing serious glossary stuff, and sure I’ll notify.
–
mui,
This would be a good time to use my suggestion yesterday.
MarcLord and Cujo359 could take their discussion outslde to carry on the discussion. The link is to the last post on an April 20th thread. Somebody could post the link on the main comment thread saying something like, “Hey everybody MarcLord and Cujo359 are going at it over here!” And post the link.
Instant debate thread.
However, IMHO, EPU’d Zone netiquette would instruct us that these guys are playing through the Zone from a main comment thread point. We probably should give them a pass and let them get on with it here if they want to continue.
In any case, they’re not involving the rest of the commentariat, bogging down the main thread.
I’m available for referee duty in an EPU’d Debate Chamber if needed.
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I’m a huge fan of Sensitive Chaos: The Creation of Flowing Forms in Water and Air.
I can’t see any reason the “flow” of a blog should be any different.
–
Followup from post # 162–
I realize that I changed the subject to 911, but I think that an informed population is very important to America’s survival (as we know it).
I am not normally a conspiracy theorist, but refusing to listen to the facts or view another perspective, out of fear of being called a name(s), is against my nature of pursuing truth. If you are critical of people who question the official 911 version, see for yourself what you think after watching the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848). You are free to still believe as you wish. I am convinced the questions put forth in this video are based on facts— and the facts that have been withheld (classified) or destroyed.
EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE BUSH CRIMINAL ADMINISTRATION IS CONNECTED. 911 was the justification for the Iraq War—which was in the Grand Plan before 911 even took place. Wilson put a damper on the neocon Master Plan, and he had to be stopped. Thus, the justification for outing Valerie Plame, regardless of the illegalities or consequences involved. I believe the neocons think their end goal justifies any ‘means’ to get there.
For those that have watched the movie, one thing that bothered me is Osama’s hospital stay in Dubai right before 911. To me, the connections between Bush and the Arabs (Saudi Arabia and Dubai) are worrisome. And now Congress has approved the Dubai purchase of a company that makes US military equipment.
Based on all of the other shocking things that have been revealed about BushCo in recent years, I ask myself if the Dubai factor is another part of the Grand Plan? Why didn’t Bush support increasing the size of our military? What about their plans to decrease the size of the National Guard? Why do they want to close so many military bases in US? Why is Donald Rumsfeld allowed to stay on when it is clear he has failed misrably in his execution of the Iraq war? Why aren’t our borders more secure? Why isn’t all incoming cargo inspected? Why was NO neglected in time of need? [Was the lack of local National Guard a big factor?]
What would the big picture show if we could somehow connect all the dots? What is the end goal of this group that has hijacked our democracy and country?
Ignorance is not bliss if being informed is necessary to prevent further disaster.
Has anyone put together a list of contracts or otherwise possible quid pro quo’s that Goss might have been a party to while still a member of Congress and serving on the Intelligence Committee? It seems IMHO that this would be at least the #2 reason he would have had to resign if his buddies Foggo, Wilkes, and Cunningham all wind up testifying. What was going on 20 months ago? Was there a reason he might have had to leave the Congress? I love the hooker angle tho….it’s my #1 theory for now. But Goss’ ties to Congress seem more likely to be a graver concern to the WH. #3..I think it’s tied to Foggo’s possible indictment…something Foggo knows.
Ah! Alone at last.
Is there anyone else in here?
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Ah J i O,
Re: Tango. Such as the wisdom of time-travelers. I bet you never get frustrated with computer problems, because you sail effortlessly through space.
Rusty et al, the whole Goss and Foggo thing is sickening, eh? Disclaimer: Not Canadian.
mui – yeah the Goss thing is sad. nothing wrong with Canadians!
bboop – what would Foggo know? would it pre date the arrival of Goss at CIA?
Rusty, I know, I know. I was snarking on myself. I once had a friend from Canada and before I knew it, I kept using “eh?”
As J i O would say: “as you were.”
mui – i missed the eh, eh!
I agree with Jeff at 29. Great picture.
“poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the universe”
is anyone else out here? V–ger? Major Tom?
The possibility of an inside job never occured to me abd sounded completely wacko until I saw that video last week. I second Annie Hall’s recommendation.
http://video.google.com/videop…..3762628848
The video talks about explosions heard on the first three floors by maintainance men after the lobby explosion that Marc mentionned:
“For months in restaurants and bars you could hear people debating the firefighters’ stories about explosions coming from the WTC basements, talking about the streets shaking before the buildings fell.”
At the end of his life, the Reverend and great patriot William Sloane Coffin believed it was an inside job. He said that its proof is the only way W can be impeached and would change civilization for the better forever.
EPU’d Zone Archives first 16 days.
And wasn’t it Rove who said something about how wives are fair game?
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