
Greg Sargent’s piece at The American Prospect is worth reading because it speaks volumes about the true reasons behind all the noise being made about the "angry bloggers" by people like Joe Klein:
Before, Joe Klein and his colleagues enjoyed an exclusive perch, one that was maintained for them by the folks who controlled the systems that, previously, were the only ways commentary and news were disseminated. One could argue that columnists earn their perches — through hard work, experience and, occasionally, talent. But once they attain their position, their status is more or less protected — both by the fact that news orgs rarely fire columnists and by the kind of de facto gentleman’s agreement that has long kept columnists from attacking each other too aggressively.
The blogosphere has shattered that comfy arrangement — permanently. All of a sudden, there’s no longer a system in place that allows columnists to grow lazy, sloppy, or biased without facing consequences. Suddenly it’s possible to pinpoint a commentator’s weak reasoning or inaccuracies and broadcast them far and wide. Suddenly underperforming columnists, and their editors, are no longer insulated from competition — from bloggers who, as hard as this may be for established commentators to accept, actually do work that’s as good or better than they do.
As I’ve noted before, Klein’s efforts to toss off a few poorly written paragraphs and post them at the Huffington Post (where no doubt we should all be grateful he graced us with his presence, I suppose) were no doubt an attempt to stick his toe in the waters of the blogosphere. He got his ass resoundingly kicked (much like he did in the CJR for the journalistic malpractice he committed with Primary Colors — hat tip Digby). There is absolutely nothing he does that hundreds of people in the blogosphere don’t do better every single day of the week. The fact that the pundit game is turning competitive, and it looks like it will will increasingly be played out on the internet, must be truly terrifying to the likes of Klein, who is constantly being invited to dine on a buffet of his own words by the institutional memory of the blogosphere which has the audacity to hold him accountable for the things he’s said.
As Atrios said this morning, he is small and not so honest.
Update: I didn’t realize it but the person who put the question to Klein during his recent Washington Post chat about the left hating America (which Klein denied saying) was our very own Matt O, whose column on war profiteering appears here every Saturday afternoon.
Update II: Chris Anderson gets "quote of the day": "When silent movies gave way to talkies, a whole raft of stars who couldn’t make the transition saw their careers destroyed. Nothing really changes does it?"
Related posts:
- Bill Press: Lou Dobbs’ Birther Lunacy is Killing CNN’s Credibility
- The “Atlantic 50″ Exposes Liberal Media Influence (or Not)
- Joe Klein: Still Haunted by His Shoddy FISA Reporting
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Eric Boehlert, Bloggers on the Bus: How the Internet Changed Politics and the Press
- Tough to, um, handle, yeah handle.





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Ftz
Fitzy!
Fitz again!
OT -
CNN has made available on its front page the clip of Rumsfeld getting called out on his lies.
Did the Rumsfeld story make the evening news?
It depends on what the definition of “hate” is. If ever there was a model of a polar word, that word is one of them. I wonder how many polar words were penned by this “neutral” writer in characterizing the republican party..
Thanks, Jane. You are among the bloggers who do better investigating, analysis, and writing than Joe Klein. In fact, I’m insulting you by the comparison.
Thanks for not lettin’ nobody get away with nuthin’. Maybe if we keep pounding, slowly the level of critcal thinking and discourse will rise in this country. And perhaps democracy, such as it is, will be saved in the process. And merci beaucoup for the further frenchification of FDL.
i just read a quote which i think describes the “shattered arrangement” quite well:
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
– Buckminster Fuller
“He is small, and not so honest.” ba-da-BING!!!!!!!!!
Savage. Stellar example of a bon mot.
An epitaph, no?
Joel (#6). it’s called “Damned with faint praise.”
Unintentional irony?
xyz– EPU’d wrt to McGovern:
Lou is completely outraged that Rummy says he is not in the intelligence business– he is on a tear! bravo.
Lou said that it is good that we can speak up in America and McIntyre says give rummy credit b/c they were about to throw this guy out and he asked them to let him stay. sheeeeit, that’s freedom and worth kudos to rummy??????? Therefore rummy gets the credit for the goons not dragging him off and for the process of free speech. nice
Now Clark Kent Ervin on Lou.
re: Joke Line- thanks Jane.
Also, there was a media matters piece about “mission accomplished” http://mediamatters.org/items/200604270005 which includes an interview snippet from Joke Line (along with some memorable words from other media faves)-
===The weekend news programs brought even more praise for Bush’s performance. On the May 4, 2003, edition of CBS’ Face the Nation, host Bob Schieffer and Time columnist Joe Klein had this to say:
SCHIEFFER: As far as I’m concerned, that was one of the great pictures of all time. And if you’re a political consultant, you can just see campaign commercial written all over the pictures of George Bush.
KLEIN: Well, that was probably the coolest presidential image since Bill Pullman played the jet fighter pilot in the movie Independence Day. That was the first thing that came to mind for me. And it just shows you how high a mountain these Democrats are going to have to climb. You compare that image, which everybody across the world saw, with this debate last night where you have nine people on a stage and it doesn’t air until 11:30 at night, up against Saturday Night Live, and you see what a major, major struggle the Democrats are going to have to try and beat a popular incumbent president. ===
Fahrender (#11) it’s not faint praise — Joe Klein has actually done some good reporting, though it’s been a long time, and he’s still a good writer. But, he has long since become corpulent, lazy, and corrupt.
I note that he is wearing a purple tie.
http://tinyurl.com/a6erq
Help Impeach Today
1) Sigh Petitions if you have not already done so.
2) Write your reps in Congress
3) Write the media
4) Pass the link to family and friends and see if they won’t chip in some time. Post it on a blog somewhere, pass the word.
5) Thanks for helping!!!
brkily >”…To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. – Buckminster Fuller”
Oh Yea, Bucky !!!
One of the greatest people to have ever lived
He revealed “the game” we are in long, long ago; “Nine Chains to the Moon” etc (hard to read true but he wrote mostly as a poet would so read accordingly)
As far as the internet phenomena goes – hang around and watch it happen because “We`ve only just begun…”
“The only barrier to a successfully sustainable planet is ignorance.” – R. Buckminster Fuller
Noooooooooooooooo! Yer can’t mean it. Ol’ Joe’s gonna have to compete! Jeebus Christus, you bloggers are so cruel. Imagine the monthly nut this hack must have to meet…
How many ex-wives does he have?
How many cars?
What’s his monthly entertainment allowance from his Corporate masters?
Guy is liar, a lousy writer, ignorant of current events…did I leave anything out…yeah, he can’t blog worth shit.
See ya Joe, wouldn’t wanna be ya!
How many houses?
I just paid my registration for Yearly Kos. Y’all come to Vegas, my placid little home town.
Seven Deadly Sins, One Convenient Location.
From the previous post, “…Emptywheel also notes this tantalizing bit, which indicates that the Neocons were already setting the stage for the Iraq war even before Bush was elected, and were just waiting for the appropriate puppet president to take the stage and push the button…” Are you suggesting that there was a neocon presence politicizing the CIA independent of President Clinton’s stamp, or that Clinton was in cahoots with the neocons? I wouldn’t have imagined the latter was possible, but when you look at Bill and Hill’s acquiescence to the buildup of the Iraq invasion, it kinda makes me say, “hmmmmm.”
What Klein and his ilk either don’t understand yet or, if they do, can’t accept, is that their job has gone from carrying on a monologue to carrying on a dialogue, and a dialogue that takes place in real time.
The “top down” model of communication is rapidly going away. Klein may continue to pontificate from On High, but he’s now going to be held accountable for every specious argument, every false statement of fact, that he used to get away with.
Come on in Joe, the water’s fine.
In the whole “are bloggers journalists?” discussion, it seems to me that most folks are using the wrong analogy. Some blogs do “original reporting,” and thus the question above may be appropriate. Most blogs, however, put the blogger against not reporters but EDITORS. Editors are not used to being held accountable except by publishers, and it’s taking them a while to get used to the experience.
The WaPo mess when the Good/Bad Leak editorial was completely contradicted by the WaPo’s own front page is a rare situation where a paper’s own editorials are found wanting by their own reporters. Now this is what blogs do each and every day – with great glee and abandon.
This is what makes Dan Froomkin’s work so good – he blends the work of reporter and editors to craft his own take on the White House. His credo for journalists is a single word: accountability. As his beat is watching the white house, he wants the government in power held accountable. As he pulls his column/blog together, he simultaneously holds the journalists who write on the white house accountable for what they do and don’t ask and analyze AND ALSO holds their news organizations, especially their editors, accountable for the way in which they package the news.
What gets covered and what does not is now up for analysis by the general public, no longer restricted to editors and their budget meetings to assign column inches and reporting priorities. Jane, Christy, Pach, and others around here are great at pulling together the work of a wide range of reporters, sifting through their writings to glean the grain (and toss the chaff into the fire) that feeds our discussion. That’s what editors do, and on the Plamegate story, FDL is beating them to the punch each and every day!
Joe, meet hat. Hat, meet Joe. Joe eat hat. or crow. or something.
“Did the Rumsfeld story make the evening news?”
Yep, lead story on NBC Nightly News ; )
Jane has hit on something significant that is happening. We no longer accept what people like Klein or Friedman have to say as some kind of revered truth. Personally, I see these guys as nothing more than NeoCon media whores. And whatever kind of credibility they had in the past is quickly disappearing.
I like this:
>>>>>>>
Thomas Frank Wed Apr 26, 11:07 PM ET
This review originally appeared in the New York Observer
Joe Klein is the flower of American political journalism, a sharp raconteur who shows traces of the gonzo style that was in vogue when he was honing his craft at Rolling Stone back in the day. He’s a man who has followed countless Presidential campaigns, who has seen it all and who seems to know everyone, politicians and famous media figures alike, the latter of whom he likes to name-check and shout-out-to in an annoying fashion throughout his work. Today, at the very peak of his profession, he’s a columnist for Time magazine and emblematic of all that’s smug and clueless in the mainstream press
Now, if Congress can just hand the ‘net over to Verizon, Comcast, AT&T et al, we can all just move along back to MSM-induced tranquility, without all this unruly, pesky, rude blogger shit.
The Sargent piece nails it, doesn’t it? Is it my imagination, or has the punditocracy become more shrill since Saint Stephen of Colbert called them out last week?
Eric Alterman diagnosed this problem several years ago in his book, “What Liberal Media?”. Every point he made in that book has been borne out.
Vive La Revolution!
Hey Jane,
The question Joe was answering on washingtonpost.com was one that I submitted to him.
(EDITED to include the submitted question)
Oh wow Matt, I didn’t realize that was you!
OT http://www.editorandpublisher……1002463146
Transcript of today’s exchange bec. McGovern and what’s his name.
“There is absolutely nothing he does that hundreds of people in the blogosphere don’t do better every single day of the week.”
WORD! I’ve read the New Yorker, Atlantic, NY Times, etc. for years. The quality of stuff in the liberal blogsphere is first rate. The list is long, but this site, TPM, Digby, Billmon, Tracer Fire, absolutely define what Sargent has identified.
MATT!!!!!! ((((((hugs and kisses))))) xxoo. The check will be in the mail soon! (tomorrow, er… from one of the world’s worst organized persons) You are quite a phenomenon!!!! See, I told you!!!
joel (#14): that was then. this is now. what has he done for me lately? maybe he and hitchens can form a club……….
Indeed, t’was me.
I posted it a few days ago here, and Pacha concluded Klein “flubbed” the answer to my question. I was surprised Media Matters picked up on it.
“There is absolutely nothing he does that hundreds of people in the blogosphere don’t do better every single day of the week.” JH
The Populists used to say that “there is good in the ranks as ever come out of them.” The Internet proves that there is MUCH better in the ranks than ever come out of them. The difference between the good writers in the blogosphere and a guy like Joke Line is that the latter had to sell his soul to get his job. So of course, the bloggers are better.
BTW, whenever I need to prove to people that the best writers in USA write for blogs, I send them straight to FDL.
i think it was klein i just saw on CNN yesterday saying how somebody or other hates america. nobody challenged him at all. what tripe. i can’t believe how far CNN has fallen. it looks more like fox every day.
Joke Line is an old fart and a lazy thinker. A couple of weeks ago the idiotic he was on one of the Sunday morning airfests. The subject was Iran and the nuclear option, and he said something like, well, you have to keep the nuclear option on the table. Someone else said, you mean you agree that we should nuke Iran? He said, no, never, but you have to keep all the options on the table.
I rest my case.
V.G.!!!!!
Thank you!
I didn’t think Joe would actually answer it. I sent a second question asking for examples but the session ended before he answered it.
Also, I would like to know what constitutes “hate America” rhetoric, according to Joe.
Peterr (#22): did you read froomkin today? he was SMOOOOOOKIN’! (even for him).
meta
I agree. Joe was trying to have it both ways. Leaving the option on the table when you know damn well you’re not going to do it seems a bit counterintuitive.
I believe it was Dr. King that said that all we were trying to do is to get America to live up to its promises…
This is OT, but is for those who are interested in learning more aout the senate bill Christy blogged about earlier today. I have just found this excellent resource list with sample LTE’s and fact sheets as well as a number of letters from insurance commissioners and attorneys general in opposition to the bill. It made me feel much better about the level of communication happening with this bill. Thanks,
http://www.nwlc.org/details.cf…..ion=health
I also wanted to suggest to Peej, if she is still around or reads this, that she contact her area Bar association and NOT EVER go to court alone. They can help you, I have done this myself in a crisis and it was a pretty good experience. If Mary or others have suggestions for this person, I hope you will chime in. Her post is here:
Peej’s post
Matt- I hope that you are beginning to believe that you are one hell of a talented guy! That JK thing is wonderful. I told you I am good at spotting talent! (VG breaks arm patting self on back).
“But once they (columnists) attain their position…news orgs rarely fire columinists”. That’s right. And when they do fire a columnnist, (the most glaring and recent example being the LA Times shabby treatment and termination of Robert Scheer) they bring in a right wing pimp like Jonah Goldberg, a man with the brain of an oyster and less perceptive abilities than that of a paramecium. One of most nauseating pseudo-journalist, columnist, (or whatever he is) media factory punksters, to see, hear, or read, has got to be Joe Klein.
fahrender
Froomkin definitely was on fire today. I should mention that AOL’s “Daily Pulse” has a poll asking if Colbert’s set was funny. Check out the results as of late last night for yourselves and vote!
Haha, thanks V.G.
When silent movies gave way to talkies, a whole raft of stars who couldn’t make the transition saw their careers destroyed.
Nothing really changes does it?
please note klein’s phrase
‘…especially when it comes to foreign policy’
klein belongs to the bush, cheney, hillary, lieberman, biden axis that wanted us to go into iraq, that wants us to stay in a much weakened iraq, & that wants us to attack iran — it’s only mavericks like russ feingold that dare go against the grain ‘when it comes to foreign policy’
Chris 47 — that’s getting front paged.
OT: Hardball – Generals McCaffrey and Trainor speak out about Rumsfeld and how he screwed everything up. Trainor said that Rumsfeld is a manager, not a leader.
Very well worth watching later edition. CM seems to have found something this week!
There is a classic in the philosophy of science titled The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn. In it he presents how science progresses through a series of “revolutions” based on what he calls “paradigm shifts”. I think a similar case can be made about journalism. The current MSM is the old paradigm. The internet and blogs represent the new paradigm. Kuhn describes how the old paradigm reacts to the new paradigm once it feels threatened. It’s amazingly similar to what we’re seeing now from the old paradigm likes of Klein et al.
The NBC News had the Rumsfeld story, but their editing was suspect. They showed clips of protesters being removed, but they failed to include some of the talk back from Ray McGovern which showed how accurate his comments were.
NBC’s quick look at the blogosphere made the point Stephen Colbert could speak out, but it didn’t go into the contrast between how the MSM saw the satire and how the blogs viewed it. NBC did acknowledge that more and more stories are bubbling up from online sources and that news facts are being checked and challenged.
OT…
I just got off the phone with a supplier in the high desert area of California…they also supply Ft. Irwin near Barstow. Ft. Irwin is known for desert training for active and reserve military, and has been training and deploying troops for Iraq since before we started this wondrous project.
Now my supplier gets word that they are suddenly to support back-to-back (= continual) training from now until at least September. That’s more than any time in recent history, including since 2003, according to the supplier. They ‘usually’ run a couple of rounds of training, then some weeks off.
I remember driving out to Joshua Tree about six months before the start of the current Iraq adventure and seeing mile after mile of armored desert vehicles on the back of tractor-trailer flatbeds and thinking, “uh-oh, we’re going to Iraq.â€
Now Ft. Irwin is in non-stop desert training until September.
Could be this is training troops to cycle through Iraq, replacing the thousands that are coming up on one and two-year tours of duty.
OR….Iran?
Just makes you feel good all over, doesn’t it?
I wonder if Joe Klien still wants to nuke Iran.
OK kiddo 45, even the plagiarizers still manage to keep some kind of journo job, look at Mike Barnicle, Doris Kearns Goodwin (still commentating), Jeff Jacoby, right off the top of my head. I’m sure Box Turtle Ben will be reincarnated in a few years (months?)as a columnist.
(Matt O, counterintuitive and also destructive!)
In the blogosphere, sources are not only transparent but they go beyond just being a reference or footnote. You hyperlink and go directly to supporting arguments and in the moment the context is amplified. This is what has conventional editors and writers at such a loss. We have more information at our fingertips and don’t just rely on two dimensional presentations that don’t explain anything.
I have a confession, or rather a declaration.
I engage in “hate American” rhetoric.
I hate it when American aircraft, sanctioned by our Sec of Def and President, deliberately drop bombs on Pakistani (and Iraqi and Afgahni) villages, knowing that it will likely kill innocent civilians.
I hate it even more when American government officials dismiss these deaths on the grounds they thought/hoped they might kill someone else, as though the real victims didn’t matter, and then tell us that somehow it’s moral to kill “them” over there so we don’t risk killing “us” here.
I hate it when America’s President and America’s Attorney General argue that it’s okay to kidnap people, including American citizens, render them to secret prisons, hold them indefinitely without charges and without trial, and torture them.
I hate it these same American officials tell us that it’s okay to ignore the Constitution, ignore 750 statutes passed by Congress, ignore the pleas of thousands in New Orleans or millions without healthcare.
And I hate it when these American officials tell us that it’s good for the country to give tens of billions to rich people and rich corporations and then tell us we don’t have enough money for Social Security or Medicare.
I could go on and on about the things I hate about these American officials. I make no apologies. I understand why I and millions like me hate what these people are doing to our country. What I don’t understand is why Joe Klein doesn’t hate these same things and say something about it. What’s HIS problem?
1,042 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON AND ON AND…
Joe Klein is now defined, let us now move on and let ‘im become a parody of himself (if he isn’t already). Joe Klein is jest a disposable diaper for the corporate information managers…let’s move on to the players and not waste anymore time on the flaks.
KEEP THE FAITH AND LET ‘EM ALL MAKE FOOLS OF THEMSELVES IN PUBLIC!!
0p(((#20) Start imagining. You would not begin to believe just how much infiltration there is throughout government, of people with allegiances to all manner of unsavory groups as well as governments other than our own. The CIA, the NSA, the FBI, the State Department, the White House, Congress, and on, and on. That’s part of the reason we have the difficulties that we have. Then there’s the MSM. Don’t think they’re not infiltrated?
I’m not saying that all of these groups are a massive conspiracy but there may, in fact, be some alliances among the different interests. I like to think that i’m not paranoid when i rant about this, but even if I am, it doesn’t mean it ain’t true. Call it the Unified Theory of the Mess We’re In. Whatever. The Soviet Threat was Tic Tak Toe compared to what’s going on now. Where is James Jesus Angleton now that we really need him?
Matt O: I sent you an email the other day. Did you get it?
smiley- thanks much for the reminder of the Kuhn book- a true classic indeed. For all you young ‘uns out there, this was published in ~1970, a time of revolution, and was much discussed withing the scientific community. 99% sure that Kuhn coined “paradigm shift”, and you are absolutely correct in making this analogy science/ press
Hello all,
I do not comment here very often and what I am about to link you to is OT but I think FDL and its readers might be well served by following this issue. I personally would like to see Ms. Hamsher or one of the other contributers create a post concerning this issue if at all possible. I think it deserves as much exposure as possible.
Presidential signing statements, Charlie Savage and his Boston Globe story and our basic governmental system of checks and balances are the topics. Be sure to listen to the audio file.
Here is the link
OT For the first time, I am on the road with a laptop computer and in-room hotel wireless internet. I just want to say that a hotel room is a lot less lonely and boring when you have access to FDL.
As for Joe Klein, with people like Jane and Christy and Pachacutec and Matt writing on the internet constantly, I wonder how much longer Time will think he deserves a paycheck for a lousy weekly column that doesn’t begin to match their work.
Really, I ceased paying almost any attention to these jokelines for well over a decade, first on the old usenet newsgroups, then I hung around on salon table talk (where I first found greats like Marty Heldt, Paul Lukasiak, Maia Cowan, TBogg, Atrios, Elaine Supkis etc) and then on to Atrio’s blog and and Kos, both of which came to sire/birth such incredible indispensible stuff we see now – gilliard, soto, digby, fdl, ntodd, watertiger, ntodd, tbogg, god the sheer burgeoning and quality have been head-spinning.
No wonder joke & co. feel a tad disoriented. Not to put too fine a point on it, but he and Cohen and the whole ilk – they’re FINISHED, DONE, FINIS, BUH-BYE.
Tonight on NBC news Brian Williams called attention to the ‘blogosphere’ Stephan Colbert, interviewed Harry whatisname does a voice on Simpsons. How you can speak out now and how a few higher up voices no longer speak for and down to America, how the trend is from the bottom up. He referred to how his organization is part of the MSM.
That there’s a huge conversation going on now.
Which reminds me, how many here got goosebumps when they read The Clue Train? It’s happening folks. And maybe somebody ought to direct Joe Klein and Cohen and all the rest of those hacks to it. Now available free online.
Fahrender 59, so they just lay low during a hostile administration, like a cicada waiting for its 17 year cycle to roll back around, huh? I can believe it, conspiracy enthusiast that I am.
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/steincarter/cicadas.htm
Hi neurophius, do ya want us to talk dirty? Oh wait, the topic being Joke Line, we already are.
I’m ready for my closeup, Mr. DeMille!
neurophius- glad to keep you virtual company! Agreed, J, C, P, M and more, great company indeed.
ender, that is a very important story, we did a post on it when the story came out
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ief-thief/
I appreciate you bringing it up, though, we miss a lot and you never know.
Maybe a reason not to watch KO tonight… McGovern will be on Paula Zahn.
ender says:
May 4th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Your concern about presidential signing statements is justified; those statements have been discussed on prior FDL threads. If you haven’t already done so, please look at the posts on signing statements in the thread from last evening, for which I have provided the following link:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ibby-case/
OT — Paula Zahn just did her preview of coming attractions and Ray McGovern will be a guest on her show. Damn, I’m an Olbermann watcher. Time for the TiVo.
I can’t resist picking a nit with Chris Anderson’s solid point. A good number of the raftload of stars whose careers were sunk or severely damaged with the advent of talkies spoke perfectly well (see Richard Barthelmess in “Only Angels Have Wings” or John Gilbert in “Queen Christina”). But the confusion over exactly HOW actors should speak in talkies—should they talk like “normal” people or elocute and project in the manner of a stage actor of the time—screwed up a lot of people’s heads and led to panic. Which isn’t to say there weren’t a lot of people who just couldn’t cut it. The nice thing about what’s going on in the blogosphere is that the desserts it’s dishing out to the punditry are almost without exception richly deserved indeed.
ANd if I may, let me add, Jane, that as someone who’s observed your activities from a perch of movie journalism, I’m totally blown away by what you’ve been doing here. Good on you.
Smiley @52: You’re right. Kuhn’s “Structure . . ” does help us understand the paradigm shift. IIRC, Kuhn noted that the advocates of the new paradigm don’t convince the adherents of the old that the new is logically correct. But over time, the new paradigm just seems to become the accepted wisdom.
Matt O. >”…Leaving the option on the table when you know damn well you’re not going to do it seems a bit counterintuitive.”
I must address this (and please don`t be mislead into thinking I support these rabid psychos)
In high stakes bargining/confrontation situations one strategy is to convince “the other side” that you are crazy enough to actually follow through on threats that normal people wouldn`t even consider (the “mad man” option)
The hold that this type strategy has on some people that are mover/shaker types in international diplomacy comes from the early years of the “Cold War” (WW III in my timeline) & such classic works as those by Henry Kissinger & Herman Kahn (”On Thermonuclear War”, “On Escalation: Metaphors and Scenarios”, “Thinking About The Unthinkable” etc)
From early in the Bush MalAdministration there were published hints that they were going to go down this road but, not surprisingly, very few people noticed/understood what it would actually look like in everyday terms
Too many people thought the “collapse” of the U.S.S.R. meant that all that “Cold War” thinking would “just go away” & “sanity” would return
Don`t mean to lecture but only to clarify so as to facilitate understanding & thereby assist appropriate response; after all, “We the people…” are all in this together
“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.” – James Carter
bad JOKE LINE was on with AL FRANKEN this morning . . . he is funnny; he bemoans the loss of civility in politics . . . much like the silent film stars bemoaned the loss of subtly in movies when sound came on the scene i guess!!!
time for KO!
This is just too funny; Elizabeth Dole sent out an email that puts the possible congressional investigation of Bush above undermining efforts to defeat terrorism on the list of awful things that could happen if Dems take congress. Pretty much says, “Guilty”, doesn’t it?
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..008358.php
scarecrow # 58–
I’m in your club, if you’ll have me. I have been hazed for 6 years… so I believe I have been thoroughly vetted.
KO plays the entire Ray McGovern interlude… props!
KO is leading with the complete McGovern/Rumsfeld kerfuffle !
OT — Olbermann’s got the McGovern-Rumsfeld fracas as his number one story. Mr. O is tearing Rummy a new one. Go, Keith, go.
daCascadian- thanks for the perspective. I’m not sure if you were giving Bushco. credit for nuance and historical perspective in use of the “mad man” option, or not. I think he just kinda stumbled on to it on his own, in an “intuitive” way.
Glenn Kenny — Good to see you turn up again, I remember you from the Premiere days.
KO does old fashioned vivisection (his own word for what McGovern did) complete with leeches and no handwashing.
In his entertaining and completely worthwhile book, “Big Bang” Simon Singh makes a significant point about scientific progress. Basically, death is a very important element because even young radicals like Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein eventually become the establishment. Some ideas are just too engrained in people for them to let go, even when the evidence is clear.
When a generation of scientists that control the best observatories and academic institutions gives way to the next generation, it gives scientists a chance to begin investigating the next mysteries of the universe instead of battling over the last ones.
I don’t mean to suggest that I’m hoping for some sort of calamity. But with the pace of events and change in the modern era and the life-and-death ramifications of our elections every two years, I think it is outstanding that the Internet is providing a mechanism for bringing new ideas and new voices into the national debate.
Even more of a reason to fight hard for Net Neutrality. When the FDL community fought for a filibuster of Alito, it was an amazing thing to watch and an even more amazing thing in which to participate. My only regret was that the ball got rolling too late.
We still have a good chance to make a difference in the Net Neutrality debate. I say let’s do it.
KO says “he’s lying”!!!
And now KO is talking about blogs. And Colbert. Favorably, of course.
Major props to bloggers with Harry Shearer on KO.
OT re: Ray McGovern today.
I saw/heard him speak here last Oct. at an anti-war symposium sponsored by Peace Action Denton and he was pointing at Iran then. This man is a treasure. If you don’t know anything about him, type in ‘Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity’. As a longtime CIA analyst he knows from the inside how intelligence can be politicized and is in constant contact with current employees, albiet on a ‘deep cover’ basis. Too bad my uncle who worked for the CIA for 25 years and is a staunch Repub. and Bush-lover coudn’t have been there. I’d love to see them talking. I’d forward him some of McGovern’s writings but I don’t want to alienate my uncle. Bah humbug.
angie — welcome, but its not my club. Think it was started by some guy who lived by Walden Pond.
Wow, KO reporter does segment on the emerging blogs, with Harry Shearer, Glen R and shots of HuffPo, saying even the WH is listening. Paradigm change on its way. Are you watching JoeK?
HAPPY RAY MCGOVERN DAY EVERYONE!!!!
OT — To looseheadprop re the last thread and the question re neocons:
These people used to be on the fringes of foreign policy thinking. I see them as sort of coalescing around the founding of PNAC in 1997. Were there careerists at CIA with this worldview? Sure. Anyway, the concept of “regime change” in Iraq had been officially approved since 1998. The PNAC types were salivating to get a Republican elected in 2000. And even better – one of their own in Dr. Death Cheney.
They got what they wanted, and unfortunately, so did the rest of us.
he can walk the walkie, but can’t talk the talkie
Greg Sargent is absolutely right. We’ve got these motherfuckers by the throat. NEVER let them go.
from the Beeb : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4974852.stm
The US is due to appear before the UN Committee on Torture for the first time since launching its war on terror following the 9/11 attacks.
Thirty senior officials from the departments of state, defence, justice and homeland security will testify in public at the hearing in Geneva.
They are likely to face tough questions about practices used in the US’ anti-terror drive, correspondents say.
Rights groups accuse the US of flouting the UN Convention against Torture.
They accuse the US of allowing the torture and inhumane treatment of foreign terror suspects at their detention centres in Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere.
This is the first time since 2000 that the US has testified publicly before the committee, which, as a signatory to the UN Convention against Torture, it is required to do.
scarcrow #76: Kuhn noted that the advocates of the new paradigm don’t convince the adherents of the old that the new is logically correct.
And I believe that the old paradigm in journalism is a long way from being replaced. It’s starting to happen, however, and it will be interesting to observe, if I live long enough. It’s replaceent, by the way, need not be benign. In fact, it probably won’t be.
daCascadian @ 77 – I know what escalation and de-escalation negotiation tactics are all about. I guess what I was trying to say is – those days are over. Game over. Just my opinion.
*ilson- love the Beeb, can’t wait to read about this. What do you think? Will MSM cover it?
Joe Klein is heavily invested in buggy whip futures.
*ilson–Thanks for the BBC info. When do the US officials testify in Geneva? Do you know–does the BBC say–if the officials will be under oath (unlike many appearances before Congress)?
Klein has one agenda…to promote his own pro-Israeli NeoCon agenda. That is all you need to know…
Well, the truthfulness of the silent/sound analogy wasn’t total, but for the “Singin’ in the Rain” fans among us, it is an apt one. Some early sound actors/actresses did have heavy accents (I’m reminded of Lyda Roberti in Million Dollar Legs for one), but as long as the audience could understand them, they were thought of as “exotic”. Like Lyda Roberti in Million Dollar Legs. (After a bar fight where every man on the Klopstokia Olympic Team beat each other senseless over her, she quotes her own song and says “It’s terreeefic!” as she slinks away.) Sorry for the OT.
pun is in the house!
Klein has one agenda…to promote his own pro-Israeli NeoCon agenda.
don’t forget blitzer.
just tell these pundits to consider themselves “OUTSOURCED”…
I love the little bits of film history we have been given this evening.
I need to sign off, I have injured my back and need to heal for work this weekend.
Have a great evening.
Snark on!!!
Cheney’s affront to Putin today, implying abuse of power and manipulating oil? Rich. So many to provoke. So little time.
hmmm, wonder if that is why my Mom and Dad presented me with an inscribed copy of Thoreau upon my graduation from college, scarecrow @ 91. ;)
Take care, zen-
For KO Regarding the body in the rum barrel, is that ‘backwash’?
Peace, zen.
Before Wolf got his CNN gig, he appeared frequently on talk shows as “the Washington correspondent for the Jerusalem Post”. I was always pleasantly surprised at his command of idiomatic American English for an Israeli citizen. I guess I was kinda mistaken, wasn’t I ?
OT kinda : speaking of sour, rushers to the middle like our friend bad JOKE LINE, mike ‘i never met a telephone company id did not like — a lot’ mccurry is taking a beating over at th huffpo . . .funny stuff.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..20325.html
About Ray McGovern- I have held him in great respect, ever since I heard an interview with him by Brad Friedman on the BradShow- 6/11/05 At that time, I was a regular commenter on BradBlog, and listened to many of Brad’s great interviews. I was so impressed by Ray McGovern in his interview with Brad that I volunteered to transcribe the interview, and, thanks to some awesome helpers, managed to get that done. AND, noteably, the interview was the first I had ever heard anything about Fitz!!! The interview is of course “dated”, having been overtaken by events, but, inasmuch as I can almost give you the interview word-for-word, having listened to it so many times, I still say it is FASCINATING, and gives some real insight into what Ray McGovern is all about.
Links to interview and transcript are still active:
http://www.bradshow.com/Archiv….._Hour3.mp3
===27-year CIA Analyst, RAY MCGOVERN on the Downing Street Minutes (he’s testifying at this week U.S. House Judiciary hearings on it), on the politicization of the CIA, lies about Iraq, and intelligence on 9/11.==
http://www.bradshow.com/Archiv….._Hour4.mp3
===More RAY MCGOVERN continued from previous hour. And the brilliant and mysterious FREEWAY BLOGGER closes out a particularly stellar show!
http://bradblog.com/BradShow/T…..061105.htm
===A complete transcript of this BRAD SHOW interview is available online here!
Olberman delivered! How’s that for “Truth to Power” Richard Cohen? That’s how it’s done. McGovern trounced Rumsfeld. Goodbye Joe, Me gotta Go, ME oh my oh!
Peabrain
MSM Insiders
Rover & Scoots
Rumbutt
cheneycheneycheneycheneychenycheny……..
with a sprinkle of addingtonnnnnnnnn
meta — Yes, it’s infuriating to have Rice/Bush lecture the world an proper international behavior and respect for law, and Cheney lecture the Russians about the importance of democratic principles and competitive markets not compromised by oligopolistic practices. These people are shameless. Or, “what I hate, JoeK, is that these people have squandered our moral authority to speak out when we need to.”
This is just too funny; Elizabeth Dole sent out an email that puts the possible congressional investigation of Bush above undermining efforts to defeat terrorism on the list of awful things that could happen if Dems take congress. Pretty much says, “Guiltyâ€, doesn’t it?
They and their “terrorist, omg!!” bullshit have become a self-parody that even the reptilest, dimmest brains are gonna get.
If nothing else, the blogs have exposed the laziness of the Joe Kleins, forced them to answer for their disingenuousness, and forced the editors and producers who routinely accept the sloppy writing and abysmal fact-checking that have become their hallmarks to answer almost in real time.
As a relative newcomer to blogs, I have to say that I felt like I had found an oasis in the desert when I found FDL. Truly. This place challenges me, makes me think, gives me new ways to look at and think about things, and yes – as hokey as it sounds – has given me a renewed hope for the future.
Too many of us have grown tired of being spoon-fed the MSM gruel that is served, lumpy and cold, as though it were fine cuisine. We’re tired of being told what to think and how to feel, and treated as though we are too stupid to think for ourselves.
I think there’s a whole lot of really fine brain power cooking out here; I’ve developed somewhat of an addiction – or is it an obsession? – to FDL especially, and am inspired daily by Jane and Christy, and by the many people who post here.
Joe Klein and his ilk are going to be forced to shape up or become exhibits in the media museum; I’m guessing he, and many like him, will not be up to the challenge.
I have respected, nay loved, Ray McGovern for a long while. I have heard him speak out often, most memorably in the cramped basement during Conyers’ hearings on the DSM. This is my favorite thus far, til today:
>>>>>
Dear Congressman Hoekstra:
As a matter of conscience, I am returning the Intelligence Commendation Award medallion given me for “especially commendable service” during my 27-year career in CIA. The issue is torture, which inhabits the same category as rape and slavery – intrinsically evil. I do not wish to be associated, however remotely, with an agency engaged in torture.
More here:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030206A.shtml
I have been thinking on this subject off and on.
One thing that glaringly sticks out to me is the immediacy of information exchange enabled by the internet.In the past, media organizations gathered their news from their sources and parsed through it(seemingly at their leisure) to distill what they considered to be news worthy.They then dispensed with what they considered relevant and there was no real way to voice any kind of opinion in a timely manner. Newspapers are a perfect example. It might take a week, maybe two , to see a correction or rebuttle. Not anymore. Now it is instantanious. No time for the news source to find a ’spin’ or other obfuscation. Now, it is ‘The Jane Hamsher’s of the left’, who immediately spot incongruities, and are calling them on it’before the ink dries’.
This, is imo, what has got their knickers in a twist. They are used to being insulated from the consumer, and are not able to deal with the paradigm shift.
The talking heads and radio jerks and “columnists” are shaking in their boots because there are suddenly lots of very smart kids on the block who know how to play and have the facts.
Much of the public grew tired of the bubbleheads and the clever ones are now at FDL, KOS, TruthOut and so on… where there are great writers, where facts are presented, arguments well supported and you and me get to be heard. Jane, RedHead, Kos, Taylor… Will Pitt and so many others are the bow of a very larger ship moving forward into the body politic. Joe Klien… you are history… Go away and spend more time in synogogue.
There seems to be a standard menu of accusations:
America haters · Bush haters · antisemites.
anger anger anger · incivility · bad language.
All designed to annoy and to get a response which they can then claim proves their point.
Any other themes/sets?
Whenever the next thread happens, I recommend McGoverntz right up there with Saints Fitz et Colbertz!
MAN, what great, bracing, kicking the SHIT out of junta HORSESHIT that wonderful smart kickass man accomplished today! I shower him with patriotic lesbian kisses!
zennurse: Elvis Costello for you –
And now you say that you’ve got to go
Well if you must you must
I suppose that you need the sleep of the just
More and more people every day are developing ’spin filters’.
I remember when I first starting reading blogs and accessed the world’s information from other than our programmed journos. It took more than a week if we were lucky to see if the outrage or story had ‘traction’ and would be reported in our own CM.
Now it can be minutes or hours or, sometimes, days. But the stuff is indisputably moving faster and faster and the lying spin is shot down asap.
Thank goodness for those internets– thanks, President Gore!
zennurse– feel better soon and get that stress outta your back. I know, I know, easier said than done… I hope you heal quickly. ;)
richard wolffe on countdown tonite commented on the mcgovern/rumsfeld dustup and inadvertently confirmed what we’ve known for a long time — but he and his pals have consistently denied.
during the discussion, wolffe said that the pentagon briefings are cordial and friendly; when rumsfeld appears at these public events, the audience is much less inclined to be so deferential. (not his exact words, but the description is the same)
how can he not understand what an indictment that is of the cocktail circuit that passes for journalism in wdc.
newish threadish
Did anyone notice on the NBC piece about the blogs…with the exception of Thinkprogress all of the notable websites(I use that statement with much objection)..all of the known websites shown were right wing sites.
-GSD
Thank goodness for those internets– thanks, President Gore!
However angie the corporate fist is ever after freedom. I was intrigued by a comment in passing here today – even if Verizon et al succeed with Congress whores in doing their money-tier thing, that it will only empower community wi-fi and other innovative/underground things, and hasten the demise of the copper network coporate assholes. Thanks to whoever posted that, it enhanced my mental health a lot today.
Freedom forever!
Yes, Sharkbabe.
Freedom forever, indeed! They will not succeed in suppressing the irrepressible– we know what it tastes, looks, smells, sounds and feels like and we aren’t going back!
op99 (#67)
you can be a conspirisy enthusiast if you want. i don’t actually want to, and i’m not sure that what i’m saying actually qualifies. i used the word since i know that it could sound like it to some. i really do think that there are several groups of like-minded people or ones with similar agendas that “lurk” in various power and policy places and push against what they don’t like or for what they do. for people who are elected to office we have machinery to bring about change although too often we aren’t able to get rid of them. people like rumsfeld and cheney, wolfowitz, etc. keep using the revolving door to damaging effect. some, like the “New American Century” group and other neocons are sort of out in the open. Moussad is in a different category, There are others. We’ll probably never completely wrest much of the influence they have in high places away from them but we should dig around more and root out what we can. at the very least we need to know who they are and what they are up to.
op99 #58 – It pains me to read your Doris Kearns Goodwin dish. I do not believe she is a plagarist – she is a human being and owned up & apologized for her (very human) mistakes.
OT – What’s up with AT&T entertaining top state democratic offcials last weekend on the verdant links & greens (and endangered Del Monte Forest) at Pebble Beach, California? Seems to me these politicians have a whole lot of explainin’ to do.
I haven’t had time to fully recover from AT&T letting Sean Hannity and his traveling FOX News studio crash the gates last winter to interview amateur golfer Rush Limbaugh live from the once great AT&T Pebble Beach Pro Am golf tournament.
One thing is certain: Bing Crosby, who began the great winter tournament more than 50-years ago, would never have welcomed Limbaugh nor prominent Sacramento California democrats.
I’m just sayin’ it is all very bewildering.
scarecrow (#117)
Cheney is the epitomy of hypocritical arrogance. And that’s on a good day.
angie >”…Now it can be minutes or hours or, sometimes, days. But the stuff is indisputably moving faster and faster and the lying spin is shot down asap…”
I like to think about all this internet stuff (to which I am deeply committed) as Ben Franklin`s Revenge – Every person a “press owner”
A true Grass Roots Press
“The internet can be as informative as the library of Alexandria or as crass as a bathroom wall.” – GSD-firedoglake.com
You and Sargent are so right. Thank you. And the silent movie stars vs. talkies analogy is perfect. So, can we now speed things up by about 10,000 percent?
The perches of the MSM columnist and pundits are precarious indeed. Their defensive attacks on bloggers, especially those of the liberal persuasion, is stark evidence. Witness Howard Kurtz’s comment that there is not much good writing out here in the blogoverse. With the Hamshers, the Digby’s, the Neiwerts and Wolcotts and so many others whose work could be cited as counter-evidence, it is obvious that Kurtz is either totally clueless or deep in denial. His is wishful thinking and whistling past the graveyard.
The media establishment do not even realize that their lack of appreciation for Colbert’s brilliant comic satire is mainly due to the fact that his correspondent’s dinner routine pushed on that big stick they’ve got up their collective, elitist asses. A fact that is obvious to the rabble living outside the incestuous culture of the Washington press, i.e., the rest of us.
Jane, you have opened up a can of worms.
You say, “The blogosphere has shattered that comfy arrangement — permanently. All of a sudden, there’s no longer a system in place that allows columnists to grow lazy, sloppy, or biased without facing consequences. Suddenly it’s possible to pinpoint a commentator’s weak reasoning or inaccuracies and broadcast them far and wide. Suddenly underperforming columnists, and their editors, are no longer insulated from competition — from bloggers who, as hard as this may be for established commentators to accept, actually do work that’s as good or better than they do.”
They are going the way of the silent movie stars and I think the next election will surprise all of them. They will huddle together in small secure settings and discuss how they missed it this time but they will get right the next time. What they may not understand is that this may be their “next time”…
It’s times like these when the elite feel the heat that they usually resort to full blown fascism. The mother of all battles now lies before us so do you want to come with me to Washington DC?
Yes or no? It is a question of life or death
for us all. We will either conquer or die,
because defeat will be so terrible that we
could not survive it. But we will conquer.
I have faith in our victory.I only regret
that today I speak to you in this netspace.
Some day soon we will live in a free society.
No dissing Miss Roberti.
Million Dollar Legs is one of my favorite movies.
“Not too clozz boyzz, youse catch on fi-yer.”
It is interesting that the internet has proven to be such a “disruptive” technology vis a vis journalism and punditry. Men like Klein and women like say, Ann Coulter, got to their privileged positions before by traditional network of the old boy variety, more or less, rather than fully on merit. It is an obvious point to all the readers here that blogs have leveled the playing field and as you note, Jane, the corrective capacity is truly astonishing (much as wikipedia continues to amaze….).
Studies of networks with hiearchical structures in the past showed that big changes arose when informal contacts were promulgated on low lying branches of those networks. Little happened from above. The internet and blogosphere of course hyperpromotes those informal connections.
This will not be limited to journalists in the future, I am willing to predict. As a scientist, I can see the trendlines in the traditional sciences. The access to information and the filters being provided by computerized literature searches are allowing scientists to initiate broad interdisciplinary leaps and begin contributing relatively quickly in new fields. This will break down in what I think is a healthy way some somewhat unhealthy heierarchies in the research realm analogous to the journalism vs. blogosphere situation.
It also means that eager younguns can start entering the scientific realm more quickly with less of the traditional training. I am willing to bet that the universities undergo massive changes in the coming years.
Richard Cohen’s pathetically bad piece in yesterday’s (?) WashPo — I am telling you that Colbert was not funny because I am an expert and you damn well better agree with me — is nothing more than the dying cry of the punditocracy pleading for their lost credibility.
One other thing about the blogs is the opportunity to exchange ideas not just with the bloggers but hundreds of people in the comment sections. Our community is so full of really smart people and we would never hear from them any other way. Plus, we all get to vent at will without writing to the editor. I’m hoping the government doesn’t succeed in destroying it. Way too much independent thinking out there for them – can’t have that.
Excellent article.
Wake up, Joe, the torch has been passed to the blogosphere while you were admiring yourself in the mirror.