there years … or three years?

G’night, all.

Fitz!

fitz!

IT’S CALLED ARTHUR MAGAZINE. YOU GUYS ARE THE ONES THAT SET THIS UP.

totally hysterical. Thanks! And bonus points for using the expression, “tits up.”

Valley Girl
Here’s a diary posted by my sister that talked about the lessons learned about international outbreak management from SARS.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/12/204147/206

Did this both ways because the preview wasslow and I have to get to bed now. Hope it posts.

Fitz

Awesome Jane. Thanks

Paul Rieckhoff is on Stephen Colbert and they are both brilliant.

I just happened to be reading through old interviews with John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) of the Sex Pistols. What a contrast with this wanker.

oy gevult. Can someone please tell me what “underlying bed music” is?

oh, what a twit.

Darby Crash, D. Boon, Jeffrey Lee Pierce, where are you when we need you?

Godsmack is no System of a Down, that’s for sure.

Oh, man, duude, like, what’re you like talking about man? This is way too funny. Talk about your anti-protest music. Yeesh!

shoephone #9
I think underlying bed music is the background music

Uh. Mah. Gawd.

That guy is why parents everywhere tell their sons and daughters not to date or marry us musicians.

What a lummox. He could give Scotty McClellan a run for his money in the triple-crown double-talk derby.

He ought to just come right out and say, “We do it for the money, dude. The Pentagon pays legit. We’re just in it for the money.”?

Oh, right, cos that wouldn’t be RAWK and ROLL enough for him.

Oh holy smoking whatever expletive I cannot even conjure up, Jane– Sully is a perfect example of nonthinking and opportunistic cretins that abound everywhere.

Huh, uh, whaaaa?

“We just simply, an opportunity came up, they wanted to use some music for a recruit commercial. What are we gonna say, no?”

Just say no, you p.o.s. non thinking neanderthal. And though I am a fierce protector of free speech, just what the hell is up with that name, anyway? Godsmacked. doh.

“Yeah, but tell me what it said again.” duh.

“Dude, [yelling] WHY DON’T YOU GO LIVE IN IRAQ THEN IF YOU HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH AMERICA? Why are you here?” duh again

“I don’t have enough education in the military to educate them in anything.” duh yet again

Thanks, Jane for more education and exposure and I mean it sincerely!

I feel positively sullied.

Thx, Suzanne.

two beers, I went to high school with Darby Carsh (Paul Beam). He was a freaking asshole, despised by pretty much everyone. He had a posse of likeminded freak/assholes, who tromped around in miltary fatigues, constantly talking about guns, etc. If Crash was alive today, David Neiwert would be posting about him, along with all the other neo-nazis.

OT –

A follow-up to my previous request for thoughts/prayers. Please keep ‘em coming.

Our dear pupster? The vet said tonight it looks like it really IS cancer.

I’ll hang out here when I can, but have to split my time with some extra online research on “anal sac adenocarcinoma.”

Thanks guys, for all the support you’ve already given me. But I may need to reach out to y’all — all my good buds at FDL — just a wee bit more, from time to time, as we go through what’s undoubtedly ahead.

Will do my best not get maudlin or too heavy about it.

[Everybody’s got crosses to bear; and some of you here have much heavier crosses than just a battle against cancer in a beloved pet.]

http://tinyurl.com/a6erq

HELP IMPEACH TODAY

1) Sign Petitions if you have not done so
2) Write your reps in Congress
3) Write the media
4) Pass the link around to friends & family and ask them to chip in some time
5) Thank you for helping!!!

Mrs. K8–

Heart is heavy for you and yours. Healing thoughts your way. I’ll wish very hard for hope.

Kinda OT, but David Sirota has a post at MyDD, that outs Steny Hoyer, the # 2 Democrat in the House, as a BushCo tool.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/5/3/123758/5207

Steny Hoyer’s Hostile Takeover

Folks are rightly outraged today about House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer vigorously coming to the defense of President Bush. You know there’s a huge problem with our political system when the number two Democrat in the House is throwing himself in front of the media to defend an extreme right-wing President.

But then, we shouldn’t be surprised by Hoyer’s behavior. As I document in my new book Hostile Takeover, Hoyer has long led the charge to emasculate the Democratic Party. Whether on economic policy, on the war, on trade policy or on just generally selling out to Big Money interests, Hoyer has self-servingly gone out of his way to undermine his party. Put another way – if you are looking for one of the root causes of the Democratic Party’s problems, look no further than Steny Hoyer.

Fucking cretinous asshole…a classic case of: “I’m stupid so don’t blame me…”

Lots of Sully’s out there. Wish they were all as funny.

The dude deserves the credit for figuring out that he was actually going down.

sooner or later, ALL pro-war voices (from this boob to the eloquent and informed Hitch) resort to the “you must like Osama & Sadaam” rebuttal.

Another opportunist p.o.s. that Hoyer. Needs to crawl under the rock with Lieberman and cuddle.

Godsmack band, dudes, you are nothing but a bunch of sellout assholes. FUCK YOU! Your music sucks but more importantly YOU SUCK! So FUCK OFF and DIE in IRAQ with a Mouth full of dogshit!

Mrs. K8 – Thoughts and prayers heading your way.

I respectfully, yet strongly disagree with Ms. Hamsher’s entire viewpoint and opinion in this article. As far as I’m concerned, the only ASS on display in this article is Jay Babcock. And, if Mr. Babcock, and the employees of this Arthur Magazine are also democrats…they are precisely what’s wrong with the Democratic party. Not only do I view Babcock as an ass….he also, quite obviously, is a pussy.
Now, Mr. Sully Erna may not be the most eloquent fella out there…but I got his point. It’s right there in about the 3rd paragraph [the long one] at the top of the interview. Sully admits that we don’t always make the smartest choices with our military. I agree.
But, BLAMING the military, as Mr. Babcock seems to do, and as Ms. Hamsher seems to approve of….is flat wrong. Folks like Babcock and Hamsher have an absolute right to their opinions, but whenever they want to carp about the military, and a bad POLICY choice….bitch at the gov’t leaders who made the policy choice. Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them, as has been done here. Ms. Hamsher, I protest and object. Respectfully, you should be ashamed of yourself. And so should this little Babcock boy.
Ghostman

This jay guy has huge stones. Awesome interview.

Just freaking hilarious. He would have been much better off had he said “look, we don’t think about politics, we’re not a political band, I’m not a political person, though I’m basically patriotic, and for them to use our music in the commercial was great money for us, what do you expect us to do?”

At least that would have been honest. Instead he came of as aggressively stupid.

You can check out Godsmack’s website here. It’s like, totally awesome.

http://www.godsmack.com/

Ghostman, are you a witch too?

The kid sounds like this is the first time he has been confrontrd with this line of questioning. How much do you all suppose the band was paid by the military money machine? Perhaps Christopher Hitchens could give this band a seminar or something. BRB, I have to go scream.

31……noooo….I really don’t enjoy the Halloween holiday stuff.
Ghostman

I used to be in a band with a guitarist who hated, hated, hated Godsmack. He hated Everclear too, and his quip about Everclear would fit these mooks too:

“There oughtta be a law against that band”

Mostly he said this cause their music was big, dumb, and crappy. That was enough for me. This shit’s just icing on the cake.

JWR # 30– yikes, they have a song called “Bring It On” whoopsies– guess they do know something about politics.

Ghostman # 27– I don’t see anyone here including Ms. Hamsher and Mr. Babcock blaming the military at all. Rather, I see them protecting the military from the dastardly deeds and ambitions of the administration and the military industrial complex.

Ghostman, I’m not sure how you infer that Babcock or Jane are being derogatory about the unfortunate 2400 soldiers who have died in this immoral, idiotic adventure called the Iraq war. If anything, they are taking sully to task for the fact that he makes himself complicitous in those deaths when he sells his music to the military – for the express purpose of using those soldiers for stupid and immoral means! sully deserves to be called on the carpet for his ignorance and his blind greed.

they’re musicians, what did you expect ???

I bet this guy could score lower than 400 on the SAT (you have to spell your name wrong to do that)

ever seen any OZZY interviews ??? (they’re a real hoot)

I wouldn’t trust any of these guys to guard a shopping cart

scientists spend good money to have similar conversations with chimps

it doesn’t prove anything

35: we just read the same article very differently.
36: how can some musician be “complicitous in those deaths”???? By selling a song to a branch of the military? Your reasoning astounds me.
Ghostman

freepatriot @ 37– I have known plenty of musicians with very high IQ’s, heaps of common sense, knowledge about current affairs… and conscience.

Ghostman: Who’s blaming the military? Nowhere in the intervew is a single soldier blamed for anything.

This interview is a perfect microcosm of conservative media strategy. Pretend you’re cool and normal, when challenged warn that your words have been misconstrued, when pressed admit that any failings couldn’t have been foreseen, when called on your bullshit, denigrate the person you are in debate with.

Also goes to show that the so-called Iraq strategy cannot hold up to scrutiny and cannot be defended. Hence the administration bubble, to stave off any possibility of having to contend with reasonable questions and problems.

Ghostman — “Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them.”

How dare you. How fucking dare you. Neither Jay nor I belittled the people who served in the military nor died. You can tilt at straw men all you want but your comments are ignorant, illiterate right wing talking points that are not borne out by any evidence.

Advertising sells the most amazing things…

toilet bowl cleaners

medication

sex

and war.

I stand in defense of dumb kids everywhere.

To paraphrase John Murtha, it isn’t up to the 20-year-olds with guns (or guitars) in their hands to decide whether or not to fund armies, start wars, or entice underprivileged high-schoolers into exciting careers in death and mayhem. Those decisions are for the grown-ups in Washington. Has anybody seen any?

peace,
jim

Ghostman #38 – and your misplaced anger astounds me. sully is an idiot, the Bush administration (that inlcudes Rumsfeld) are criminals.

Jane and Babcock have done a good job of pointing that out. And yes, anyone who takes money from the U.S. government to prop up the current folly of our foreign policy is complicitous.

angie #35 – Lol, I missed that.

OT – Get ready for another episode of “upperdown vote” for another wingnut judge. Georgia10 at Kos has the rundown:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..12156/1492

to make it even weirder…Sully Erna is a Wiccan-bordering-on-Satanist. Goggle the relevant nouns…it’ll come up.

40, mr. blifill….the attack reeks thru-out the article. Whoever this Sully fella is, and whatever his group is….he and they are just musicians. That’s all.
But Babcock wants to launch some harangue on policy to some musician…and criticize the military for iraqi deaths and so forth….that’s an attack. You may not see it….obviously.
Babcock needs to get off his ass and go march on D.C., not attack some kid who’s only act in life is to write a song.
Ghostman

I’m not sure what the point of the post was. I think it was funny. I don’t think FDL posted it to slam military. I’m not sure that the interviewer shows signs of thinking things through much more clearly than the -ee.

But… did the post say that the military is using a Gobsmack song titled “SICK OF LIFE”for recruiting? “Sick of Life” -is that right? That is funny in grim way. I think I want to hear that song and read the lyrics. That alone made the post worthwhile.

This is off topic, but below are some links that seem to be related to some recent topics discussed here. The first two particularly, wrt to Dem political strategy. And I got the yen to advertise Mark Thoma’s economics blog -really top notch expert commentary presented in plain English (’cept when he gets going on monetary policy)
geography of politics (nation not more polarized but religion more important single factor than in past)

http://economistsview.typepad……itica.html
economic torture of working class in US continues apace -help is not coming from either party
http://economistsview.typepad…….html#more

Also of interest
Fairness and efficiency of fairtrade coffee
http://economistsview.typepad……ss_an.html
Journal American Medical Association says British Healthier than their US cousins: universal health insurance prime suspect in case
http://economistsview.typepad……sh_he.html
Social Security Trust Fund’s fate (is unkown: BOO!)
http://economistsview.typepad……_fund.html
(IMHO, productivity growth will be high enough so it will not run out until after boomer spawn go away and stop bothering us)

An interesting simple explanation of net neutrality debate. Turns out, according to these, that its all about rich people fighting over money. Who wudda ever thunk that? Telco’s need to pump terabytes of crappy movie and video feed into your home daily and make a killing off of it. Better to bribe the government to give them monopoly power over pricing than investing in more capacity and earning money the old fashioned way -getting paid same rate for each byte that goes though at given congestion rate (-like mail and parcel delivery services). I figure that means that if telecoms gets the net, they won’t start blackballing places like FDL until they are finished fighting over the TV and movie money.

Internet2-nonprofit, public service, academic and research internet project
http://commerce.senate.gov/pdf/bachula-020706.pdf
http://abilene.internet2.edu/
http://www.internet2.edu/~shal…..ality.html

Ghostman .. wrong logic. Read more carefully, infer a bit, think a little more, and then apologize to Ms. Hamsher.

Ghostman at 33 — I see you are busy but the question about the witch wasn’t about Halloween so much. Since you used so many terms that are associated with familiars at 27 I thought that you might share Mr. Erna’s belief structure and be an actual witch. I must say I was confused when you introduced Ms. Hamshire to the topic.

As far as the military — they are pretty good at taking care of themselves so I will not try to come to their rescue. Its all scary to me.

Billmon’s video diagnosis of Bill Frist’s preznit ambitions –

http://billmon.org/archives/002424.html

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist today denied reports that his presidential ambitions have slipped into a persistently vegetative state, saying they are alert and responding to visual stimulus.

“Based on the videotapes I’ve seen of recent GOP dinners in New Hampshire and Iowa, I would say my political prospects definitely display signs of higher brain functions,†Frist told reporters in Washington. “They can blink and swallow, and their eyes will still track objects – such as large contribution checks – waved in front of them.â€

Joe– that seems a little teensy bit oh so slightly obvious when I checked the website that JWR link to and saw the graphics… and the name, well you know…

41, Ms. Hamsher:
“You can tilt at straw men all you want but your comments are ignorant, illiterate right wing talking points that are not borne out by any evidence”.
No, no straw men here…and I have no clue what the latest “right wing talking points” might be. I don’t even go to their web sites….they all seem to be on another wavelength than am I.
And, you can call me ignorant and illiterate all you want….but that article was an attack by Babcock. Plain and simple.
Ghostman

Enough with this crap about musicians being dumb. I’ve been playing for almost 40 years. And in that time I’ve been lucky enough to play with some of the best in the business. They are neither dumb, nor fated to do nothing but write songs. They are some of the smartest, most knowledgeable, most courageous, most politically aware people I’ve known.

You know I love this site, and I understand you can’t hit ‘em all out of the park. Have seen Godsmack three times, they improve every time. Having named themselves after a track on the Alice in Chains opus to addiction “Dirt”, their freshman album sounded a little close to Alice. They continued to develop their own sound.

Sully is an excellent percussionist and you can tell by his music that their sound, including the guitar, is based off percussion.

I didn’t like the whole “ambush” interview thing, did nothing for me. All the wonderful free spirited 60’s anthem are now commercial for GM, Ford, or ETrade. Hell, the Beatles “Revolution” was a Nike commercial. Sting’s “Desert Rose” was a Jaguar commercial.

‘Nuff said from me on this topic. I look forward to moving on to a different topic.

And in Ozzy’s defense, can you name me a song protesting the Vietnam War with more biting, scathing lyrics than “War Pigs”?

Make sure you read his lyrics before you rebutt.

If you are up late enuff to watch tonight’s replay of Colbert, do watch it. Paul Rieckhoff
was amazing! (I think angie already said that) I wasn’t paying close attention, then suddenly, Rieckhoff opened his mouth, and WOW.

I think he might have argued fiercely with Ghostman about the role the Godsmacked music might have played in the recruitment of those young ‘uns, many of whom have died in the “protection” of our country against all those Eye-raqis who wanted to invade our nation and attack us. (loooong sentence)

I have to admit that I do not think allowing the military to use a song is a big deal. They would have used something nearly identical anyway. Some one is going to get the money. I guess that is the economist in me. If I had a band, I don’t think I would allow military to use my stuff for recruiting as long as BushCo in power, though. But, the band guy clearly had not thought about any of the ethical issues at all. Not for one second. I’m a musician so I don’t want to imply anything about our smarts, but this guy sounded like he has consumed way too much Everclear of some kind, at some time.

I think the interviewer was all over the map on what the main point he was trying to make, though.

49, shazam….oh. Well, I don’t even know what a witch “religion” is all about. Never followed it, and have no interest in such “religions? beliefs?”
Ghostman

You go Wyo Nate

But you got to agree that he did a good job with the ambush and that is part of the game.

in other words, yes, it was an ambush interview, if you think it is cool for some one not to give one second of thought about ethical implications of how some one uses your music (military, government, private compancy, charity, whatever). I don’t think it is cool at all. So to Erna, all I can say is -grow up, smell the coffee, and get a clue.

Ghostman #47: Babcock needs to get off his ass and go march on D.C., not attack some kid who’s only act in life is to write a song.

If his only act in life was to write a song, there would have been nothing to attack. But he wrote songs that appeal to people of prime recruiting age, and sold some to the military to recruit them. Someone who just wants to “write a song” (or even make a living off it) doesn’t have to sell it to advertisers; that’s pretty much the definition of “selling out.”

Asking him to justify that (or at least admit it was just for the money and he doesn’t care) is just as legitimate as it would be for someone whose songs are used in cigarette ads, or Hummer ads.

Hi Mrs. K8 -

I am so sorry to hear about the diagnosis – I hope you and your pupster can enjoy many more years together.

I don’t know how to weigh one suffering against another. For me, a battle against cancer in a beloved pet seems like a very great burden.

Prayers and healing thoughts for you both.

So the military is going to advertise using a song called “Sick of Life”? Given the current recruiting environment, I’ve gotta give them props for honesty, but…

Or maybe they’re gonna use it to recruit for the Iraqi army…

In other words, I think these people should be able to sell and license their music to whoever they want. Free country, etc. But to get all pissy when some one asks you about the obvious and serious implications of allowing it to be used for military recruiting while a rather suspect war is on, that is silly and sad of him. I do not know one thing about this guy. I wonder, though, if he got all pissy and defensive and “hey, chill, dude” about it because he sensed potentially serious marketing vibes about it. I wunner. Dixie Chicks, and Neil Young, and a few other bands are protesting now with good music and thoughtful music. He might worry if he is endangering all his fans who can think.

Ghostman — find the part where I (or Jay) belittle people who have died in the military. That is a very serious accusation, one I take very personally. Go on, find it. You’ve accused me of it, I want to see it.

I recall there were some celebrities who were sued for the commercials they performed in and the products they promoted. To say or imply that musicians ought not to be held responsible for how their music is used is a bit much. At least when it is the military using the music. I would think that regardless or how the music is used in military promotions, it isn’t being used to promote peace.

Im not sayig the musicians are responsible for death. But I am saying they can’t claim ignorance when they permit the use of their work by an orgnization whose specialty is war.

Wyo Nate #55 – You won’t get any disagreement from me wrt Ozzie, and “War Pigs” is excellent lyrically. And while not nearly as pointed, but as relevant today as in 1970, is Steppenwolf’s “Monster”.

http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html

#61, redshift….actually, your comment is the most lucid of the “ghostman dogpile” (chuckle) that most seem to enjoy. Here’s where I disagree with you:
yes, the kid wrote songs to appeal to other kids for recruiting purposes. I say: nothing wrong with that! Under MOST circumstances, serving in the military is a very honorable thing to do. The current problem is a POLICY decision…not a problem WITH the military. There are NO ethical problems with serving in the military. And, to compare the “ethics” of being in the military with cigarette ads is, in my opinion, very incorrect.
We should praise those that serve, and have served over the many decades. When they find themselves in a “bad war”….its not those soldiers who got us there. It was the policy-makers.
redstate, hope you see my distinction.
Ghostman

OT

Valerie Plame Wilson Seeks Book Deal

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05…..ref=slogin

“Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them, as has been done here.”
ghostman, that phony patriotism doesn’t fly here. Have you ever heard of the “Powell Doctrine?” If we had followed it, we never would have occupied Iraq. You can’t occupy a country of 25 million with 150,000 troops. Jane and Christy and their guest posters are leading the fight to SUPPORT our troops by getting them the hell out of harms way, Iraq and Afghanistan. In my opinion you owe a “clear as can be” apology to Jane in the comments, now. You don’t get to insult as thorough an American patriot as Jane Hamsher, with one of the worst insults that can be hurled at an American as “belittleing American dead in service of their country.”

Not to beat a haunted horse, but Ghostman’s perspective on the Godsmack interview is interesting if placed in historical perspective.

Step 3 in progression to outright revolution is granting or withholding support of a regime. The foremost expression of that development is that the grantors and withholders start duking it out publicly. The withholders start to shame their fellows who are complicit in supporting the regime and make it clear that they will be publicly humiliated, followed by progressively worse fates.

Noam Chomsky addressed West Point on April 21st. Steven Colbert openly mocked the preznit the next weekend. This interview, small case in point. This is the humiliation phase. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve, and remember thy oaths.

Ghostman.

I just sell my software to pimps, knowing full well they’re pimps and they’re going to use it to be more efficient in pimping them out the ho’s.

Am I complicit in their schemes?

Certainly.

And if someone attacks me for doing so, is that wrong? (Seems only reasonable, provided you think pimping ho’s is wrong.)

Hey, I only gassed a few jews because it was my job.

Hey, I only rob banks to put my kids through college.

Hey, I only sold them the song to promote their recruiting.

Hey I only sold them my software to help them pimp their ho’s better.

They’re all the same shades of the same motivating stuff.

So, either you’re proud of selling a song that promotes the kids to join the millitary (…and the terrible things the millitary is doing) and the terrible things that may happen to those kids or you’re not. (I suppose you could attempt to make the case that joining the millitary and fighting a war of aggression in Iraq is a GOOD thing…)

I just think he should have simply said. I’m proud to support the millitary. I believe in what they’re doing. But he couldn’t back up the second argument, clearly has no clue about it.

So, one has to wonder about the sanity of saying “I support the military” when you have no real clue what’s going on. You have no facts to back up why what they’re doing is a good thing.

Sure, Arthur mag had a point. They drove it home. But the result was clear. Godsmack was a lot more interested in something other than really knowing and defending the millitary and being used as a tool in recruiting. And it sounds a lot like money to me.

Is Godsmack complicit? You tell me. I know what I think. I’d have a hard time believing you actually honestly think something different.

Cheers,
Greg

Ghostman at 68. Nice try. You still need to apologize.

they recently signed another contract for three years for the use of the song Sick of Life.

“Sick of Life”, join the Navy. Unintentionally appropriate. Apparently the recruitment department is completely irony-deaf.

Quite possibly this Babcock fellow doesn’t care much for the military at all, and doesn’t distinguish between our armed forces saving lives in Kosovo or destroying them in Iraq. But one does not have to share his worldview to agree with his comments as they pertain to a military broken by Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.

The military is an honorable calling. But to join when Republicans have any chance of being in charge of it is about the biggest mistake a young person can make with his/her life, because they will throw your life away just to win the next election. And anyone who lends his fame, his influence, or his art to assist in obscuring how bad a choice it is, deserves nothing but scorn.

hang a left # 69–

thank you!

*ahem* maestro, please (tune West Side Story):

Could it be? Yes, it could.
Something’s coming, something good,
If I can wait!
Something’s coming, I don’t know what it is,
But it is
Gonna be great!

Not withstanding what I just wrote… *grin*

BTW, I think we ought to quit throwing perls to the swine.

Cheers,
Greg

MarcLord #71~
i’m fairly new to revolution. Where are you getting the 3rd step in the progression to outright revolution? and does that mean when I say to people who have bush-cheney bumper stickers they ought to be ashamed, i’m doing the 3rd step? please direct me to what you’re refering…

Godsmacked: The Pied Pipers of US Imperialism

Ghostman #68 – yes, I agree. You have been emitting a dogpile. And it’s stinking up the place.

Oops, the name of the band is Godsmack not Godsmacked (as the post says), or Gobsmacked as I thought. This kind of rock all sounds the same to me.

I know some friends’ kids who were recruited, and what the recruiters tell them these days is damn close to lying. So you got parents and friends saying “Look, if you sign up, you will go to Iraq and you will be in a combat situation, are you sure you want that? I don’t care what they say. They are sending 55 year olds who thought they were retired, you think they won’t send you?” The recruiters swear up and down that its a “specialty” company they are going into, and “look, see here, I got the list of where you might be assigned to go after training, its just a few months away, it’s set, dude. Germany’s on there, Hawaii, Southern California, I don’t see no Iraq”

Of course, as soon as trainings over and they go through the motions of listing their choices for billets, or whatever they’re called, but, gosh, something comes up and they are going straight to Iraq for guard duty. I’ve seen this happen twice.

So, if anyone half way aware should see that is a big problem to support that in anyway. This is tough, becuase the military should be supported, and it is honorable, and if no one joined there would be very dangerous melt down in national security that no one should eant. But I’ve seen two recruiting situations that were just not right by any standard.

I recall Me3 stating why Tamiflu wasn’t very effective against H5N1 and that there was something else readily available that would help more but isn’t being widely talked up. It’s buried in comments from last winter. So, Me3, if you catch this, care to use your expertise to remind us? muchas gracias.

Relenza ;)

I’m in the middle of essay questions for a huge exam tomorrow…but two of my favorite subjects are rock ‘n roll and politics.

On election night 2004 I was at Megadeth. I was happy as hell, having voted for Kerry, and being lucky enough to see Dave Mustaine, the man who had mocked Bush I musically over the course of two albums. Hell, he basically predicted the Bush problem with the song “Holy wars” months before we were in Iraq the first time.

Mustaine was an intergral player for the first wave of Mtv’s Rock the Vote push. He interviewed numerous candidates live at the dNC convention that gave us Clinton.

On election night he stopped the band and asked the crowd if they wanted to know who won the election, then he told them. Then he told a story about John Kerry refusing to talk to him in 1992, something about Kerry thinking it was beneath him to talk to a heavy metal performer. Mustaine said he voted for Bush in 2004, was happy that Bush won. I was in shock.

Megadeth’s latest album is called “The System Has Failed”, I think he wanted Bush to win because he thinks that this will punish Americans for squandering their time and their country on the lesser of two evils. The public gets what they deserve, they were lazy, easily swayed, and compliant with all the corruption running rampant since nixon. And he thinks this might get them off their ass…

Then again, Dave was never known for his ability to get along with others.

Good call, steppenwolf!

#65, Ms. Hamsher, “find the part….”, etc. I never said you wrote any such thing. Find the part where I said you “wrote” such a thing.
I’m going on the entire tone and tenor of Babcock’s article. And your WRITTEN comment, at top of the article, that you think it’s really funny.
Well, I see, or saw nothing funny about Babcock’s interview. He proved nothing to me.
So, does anyone here…can anyone here….say that they ARE damn proud of our military? Go ahead and object to how they’re being used in these times….I sure do. But rather than jump on me, I think the more interesting question is whether anyone can just come out and say “I’m proud of everything our boys have done trying to serve.”
Oh well. I still think redshift is the best comment, but I still disagree with his analysis.
Ghostman

Leslie @77,

Yes, shaming those who have Bush-Cheney bumper stickers would be a 3rd Step thing.

Step 1 would be Splintering, in which groups start to form and take advantage of a growing conflict in a way that benefits them as a whole. Blacks and Native Americans, along with serf-like whites, did this in the run-up to the American Revolution. In essence Step 1 makes a growing conflict more expensive for a regime without resorting to open resistance. It can be as simple as an illegal immigrant not working as conscientiously because of disagreement on new government policy.

Step 2 would be Testing Authority, in which protests are undertaken that are intended to provoke the regime into arrests, but not into shooting the protesters. Obviously results here vary widely.

Not sure where this came from, but it’s probably stolen from somewhere in my readings of the American Revolution as a young boy. Step 4 is Repression, Step 5 is Rebellion.

ghostman, you assumed you were someone who could lecture Jane Hamsher:
“Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them.â€
Don’t weasel out of what you started. You can posture all you like about Godsmack’s right to sell to the highest bidder, AFTER you apologize to Jane. You owe her a “clear as can be” apology. Your ridiculous attempt to paint her as anything than less than the real patriot she is, is beyond obscene.

Ghostman — so let me see if I get your argument. I said the article was funny, and you deduce I am laughing at soldiers who died in Iraq.

And your insinuations that you are the only one on this thread who is proud of the military are pompous and insulting.

85, john casper….well buddy, we just disagree.
Ghostman

My son, who was injured in Iraq and is considered non-deployable now, got orders to become a recruiter. Good kid, doesn’t really want to do recruiting, but will go out there and sell the Army to other kids because that will be his job.

So right now, I’m not seeing that interview as being all that funny.

sorta off topic.

hmmm, I wonder if ole Lt General Boykin would approve of Sully’s message and beliefs? (and btw, I have no problem with any religion/belief or lack thereof at all, I just don’t really think the dudes in power would be happy to advertise this little bitty thingie they may have missed about their theme song group.) Godsmacked would not, I think, appeal to this man.

Remember Boykin? :

>>>>>>
Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, “I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol.”

“We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this,” Boykin said last year.

On at least one occasion, in Sandy, Ore., in June, Boykin said of President Bush: “He’s in the White House because God put him there.”

“Support the Troops” is a meaningless phrase, Ghostman. Either you support the war, and the criminals who put our troops there, or you don’t. You very well DID accuse Jane of going after our soldiers and now you’re trying to weasel your way our of it. You use the same approach as poor, stupid Sully. Go take a hot bath and get back to us another time.

You’ve lost the argument.

Ghostman,

Read your offensive post. Reflect. And, then deal with it. Accept responsibility.

Ghostman,
With all due respect, it is a big more complicated than that. Yes, of course, we are all proud of people who serve their country with honor, even in a mess like the Iraq invasion. But see my comment above. I have personally seen friends’ kids (kids who I know very well and love -and they are kids, still in high school) being seriously mislead about a life and death situation. That cannot be acceptable to this country, even if it is the US military, which we do still need, doing it.

The Godsmack dude obviously had not given a seconds thought to the seriousness of allowing his works to be used for recruitint kids, for making life and death decisions. So, yeah, I diagree with a lot of the interviewer’s attitude and some of his assumptions. But how clueles can sully be? Too much Everclear?

TR, deepest condolences on your son’s injury.

86, Ms. Hamsher: no, that’s an oversimplification. But….it’s witty! And finally, I am neither pompous or insulting….nor did I insinuate that I am the only one on this thread who is patriotic and/or proud of the military. I’m sure there’s some out there on this thread.
Ghostman

Heavy Metal…The most reactionary music in the world.
Those proud martial rhythms, the siren vocals wailing over cannon fire bass and napalm guitar…
Smells like…victory.

;>)

I saw Godsmack at Ozzfest 6 years ago…between Slayer and Rob Zombie on a bill topped by the mighty Black Sabbath…You might have heard of them, Sully, they had a little song that went like:

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of death’s construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds

So I saw Godsmack…and, y’know…they SUCKED MAJOR ASS.

Just sayin’.

And anybody who says musicians are dumb needs to go boil their bottom, if they can find it.

Wait. I’m too old or something. What should I know about Godsmack? The coversation, from my point of view, was stupid but not out of the oridinary and so basically interesting given the subjects under discussion and all. I dunno about you but I’m willing to listen to psychotic rightwing stuff once in a while just to marvel.

Ghostman, tune in to Colbert and watch Reickhoff now and he has just written a book called Chasing Ghosts…

TR– I am sorry for your son and your family. ;(

46:

“to make it even weirder…Sully Erna is a Wiccan-bordering-on-Satanist. Goggle the relevant nouns…it’ll come up.”

Hi folks -

I have been an active participant in the Reclaiming spiritual community for over five years. The Reclaiming spirituality is a pagan tradition with stong aspects of feminist spituality and goddess-oriented beliefs.

While I don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone thinks of a greedball like Erna, I am inordinately fond of friendly welcoming groups of intelligent folk.

I’d be sad if the friendly welcoming intelligent folk on fdl missed the opportunity to meet the friendly intelligent wiccans and Reclaiming folk I know.

The witches I’ve met are well-informed, funny, and tolerant – just like the fdl community (sans trolls)

Confusing or equating satanism with Wicca is a common but unfortunate error. Wiccan faith includes a belief in multiple deities. In this sense Wicca is polytheistic.

There is no single “God” for an angel to rebel against – and hence neither Satan nor Hell – in the the pantheon of Wiccans or Reclaiming witches.

As monotheistic belief systems and polytheistic belief systems are mutually exclusive in their fundamental thealogies [”a” intended], anyone professing to be a Wiccan and a satanist would appear to lack comprehension of either.

Although such a profession seems to be consistent with Mr. Erna’s general level of comprehension, without looking at his website I cannot ascertain what Mr. Erna believes.

I’ll be passing up the website.

But sincere thanks to Jane for the laughs – with all love and respect for Harry Shearer, this bozo is right up there with the Spinal Tap drummers.

PS – sorry about the trolls pun. couldn’t help it.

Ghostman,

Like I said when we first crossed paths here, your name is very well chosen. Hope your parachute is strapped on tight.

shoephone, and shazam….I suppose it’s of no real use to deny that I’m a weasel, etc. Ok, fine. Ya’ll are in john casper’s corner. That’s cool.
Ghostman

angie, 97: didn’t get there in time. So, I don’t know what the reference/analogy might be.

marclord, 100….and why is my name well chosen? I must have forgotten our “paths crossing” event.
Ghostman

Ghostman here is exactly what you said:

Folks like Babcock and Hamsher have an absolute right to their opinions, but whenever they want to carp about the military, and a bad POLICY choice….bitch at the gov’t leaders who made the policy choice. Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them, as has been done here. Ms. Hamsher, I protest and object. Respectfully, you should be ashamed of yourself.

You directly accused me of belittling “all those boys who died,” and told me I should be ashamed of myself for it. There was nothing respectful about it. And you still have not provided any proof, other than what you stated in your initial disclaimer that I did so:

And your WRITTEN comment, at top of the article, that you think it’s really funny.

So I once again can only construe — you believe that since I find the article funny, I “belittle all those boys who died.” If logic is failing me please offer a corrective, I am most anxious to know what I am missing.

kirk murphy– I have some terrific wiccan friends and love them dearly for lots of things, but most especially their acceptance of others and their love and respect of nature and the rhythm of life.

MarcLord #84~
I tried to send my thanks to you earlier, but my computer- well the internet connection froze and then closed. It’s taken me a while to get it back up again. So Thanks for the brief course on revolution.
Mrs K8, I’m so sorry to hear of your puppy’s diagnosis. I hope there is something positive to be done.
Time for bed….

darkblack – Great graphic. btw, you can actually sing “War Pigs” to the tune of the Brady Bunch theme. Go figure.

Please Ghostman– take a deep breath, close your eyes, cleanse your thoughts. Then open your eyes and read the post again and then your response. You will see it, clear as a new spring day, I hope.

This is officially my last attempt…

Thanx, JWR.

Yeah, the song Black Sabbath works with the Three’s Company theme, too.

;>)

103, Ms. Hamsher: well, at least this time you’re having a DIALOGUE and asking intelligent questions, rather than name-calling. Look at it this way, and I’ll draw an analogy:
Suppose some guy is standing around, and as he stands there he sees some other guy savagely beating an innocent woman. And this guy just stands there….and laughs. He thinks it’s soooo funny watching this guy beat beat the daylights out of this woman.
Well, I don’t know what others would say, but I’d be pretty critical of that guy for just laughing at what is a bad event happening.
I consider the “event” of Babcock’s interview to be childish, immature, and, embedded within many of his smartass questions, he takes real haymakers at our military. I wrote above of how I objected to the entire tone and tenor of his interview.
I sucked you into it because, it appears to me, that your only comment about the article is that it’s “really funny”. I saw no humor in the article, and I saw the article as an attack on the soldiers. From MY perspective…you saw that as funny. And so I objected.
Ghostman

I thought it was an attack on Wiccan drummers who name themselves after a song by a 1990’s Seattle band and then sell their songs to the miltary so the military can recruit using…Witchcraft? (gasp)

Well, its probably more succesful at this point than reality…

107 angie, oh, I’m quite clear-headed, not breathing heavy, or in an emotional bind of any sort. But…thanks for the concern.
Ghostman

Ghostman #109 – your analogy is embarrasingly absurd. Please go take that bubble bath now.

And on a completely unrelated topic – my local NBC news affiliate is reporting that a Northwest man (Aberdeen) has secured a date with Tom Cruise. He gets to watch “Mission Impossible 3″ with Cruise, in a *private screening*.

kirk murphy #99 – Thanks for weighing in on this. I had a neighbor, Wiccan, and a wonderful person, and everything I learned about Wicca was just as you describe. She hooked up with a guy who’d been into Satanism big time, local TV interviews and all that as sort of a spokesman, until he saw the light, so to speak. Strange guy. Kinda gave me the creeps. But for Wicca, I have much admiration.

Oy! I’m probably too old to be commenting on this thread, but I don’t think it’s illegitimate to ask people to consider the consequences of their actions.

That said, the interview did seem to me to be a classic media ambush. Erna may be a fool, but he’s such an easy target that I found myself asking “Why are you barbecuing him, why not Bush or Cheney? Go pick on someone who’s actually smart enough and evil enough to get people killed, like Colbert did.”

Imagine someone sticking a microphone under Michelangelo’s nose at the end of a long day and saying something like “How come you’re painting that chapel ceiling. Don’t you know that the Pope who’s paying you is a plutocrat and a butcher?”

Sigh…. The truth is that damned near everybody is this society will sell anything, even their sincerity, to anyone, and if they won’t, their heirs or agents will. Generally speaking, we don’t think of it as wrong. I’m one of those — like Marcuse or Chomsky — who believe we ought to take some individual responsibility for the evils that result, but God, why would we start with a rock musician? Unless of course, attacking the weak is easier than attacking the strong.

Wicca always reminded me of a dj working his turntables.

Ghostman: Thanks for pissing on my last post. I just meant to say that I believe you misread and was giving you the benefit of the doubt– it was , quite obviously, a waste of time.

darkblack #103 – I did not know that! Now I gotta dig up a Three’s Company MIDI file and practice practice practice!

darkblack #108 (Gotta practice my numbers, too.)

angie, ever seen “the Decline of Western Civilzation part I” ???

Ozzy does an interview that just about sums it up for me

sure, Ozzy can write brilliant antiwar tunes, but his circuits are fried (and that was long before Ozzy made his life a tv show)

I know there are musicians in this world who are intelligent and eloquent, but when comparing people by occupation, you’ll find more idiots in the music industry than you’ll find in the rocket surgery industry

#114
Michelangelo would have had a response. It would have been intentionally misleading and heavily coded, but the translation would be “Damn straight, and they will know exactly what he was by my pictures a thousand years from now. Next question.”

i actually preferred chris holmes’ performance in the swimming pool in the decline of western Civilization part II, (the heavy metal one).

Part I was the more critically acclaimed one (the punk rock one)

watching the Osbourne’s, or Larry King makes me laugh. What a brilliant women Sharon Osbourne is, she repainted the Prince of Darkness as a dotty, mumbling, helpless old man and it worked! George had him and Sharon over to the WH…

Freepatriot, I recommend reading up on ozzy’s persona in the recording studio or backstage say the last 15 years. I don’t think he mumbles a hell of a lot and is fully aware of his surroundings.

angie -

That love and respect for nature (and the acceptance of others) drew me to the wiccans in the first place. I find those qualities in many people, but the love of the living world I’ve felt among the wiccans and witches I know is something unto itself.

I actually met the first wiccans in my life doing medical stuff for the EarthFirst! ‘ers on the west coast. Then met the Reclaiming folk at the first big IMF/WB demo in D.C. in 2000…after we’d all been at Seattle for the WTO

BTW – Doha round dead in the water. Bummer. ;)

Amazing that the values I learned in my liberal Methodist Sunday school are what drew me to wicca and hence to paganism and Reclaiming.

I wish the TV preachers had been calling us to love and protect the earth – their God’s creation – starting back when they were telling us to fear the peasants of El Salvador and Guatemala.

Instead, the televangelists ardently suppported – and support – those who despoil the earth and make war upon the powerless.

If Dobson, Falwell, Graham, Robertson and the like had spent as many hours on camera shouting out to protect the “created” world as they have spent toadying up to Reagan, Bush, and Clusterfuck, I wonder what could have happened to help avoid our ecological demise?

Although I despise the policies and detest the candidates the conservative televangelists support, I don’t think they represent Christ’s values any more than the Columbine shooters reflected wiccan values.

There are many Christians I know and love, and I very much respect the Christian faith and values I was taught in Sunday School.

I just keep hoping someone will slip them in a copy of “My Pet Goat” and send it off to Cluster. Perhaps even Shrub could adopt them – miracles do happen, and magic works!

Three summers ago Godsmack came to Anchorage. My son and his band had just won the talent show at their middle school, playing a metal cover of the title song from the Titanic. So I rewarded them with Godsmack tickets.

As young as they were, I went with. The band was L-O-U-D!!! The atmosphere in the Sullivan arena gave me a contact high. When we got out, one of the band members turned to me. His mouth started moving and then he stared at me quizzically. Then his mouth moved the same way again. I realized he was talking, asking me a question, and that I couldn’t hear a fucking thing. It took twenty minutes for my hearing to start to get back to normal.

Godsmack is coming back to Anchorage this summer. A lot of military families here and recruiters compete to get jobs in southcentral Alaska. My son turns 17 in two weeks. He says that if the draft comes back, he’s moving to BC or Yukon.

I’m going to show him that interview. Thanks, Jane.

BTW, the name of my son Alex’s metal band is “Intifada.”

free patriot – Maybe you should listen to something other than rock. There’s lots of other music out there, made by intelligent people. There’s this really interesting musical form called “jazz” – you may have read about it – which was created by Americans approximately 100 years ago. You might try it. It also requires some intelligence on the listener’s part.

angie – and another thing…thanks for your nice post on 104 :)

JWR – thanks also for your nice comment on 114. I’m glad you had such a great neighbor!

my own typo on 99:

feminist spirituality

not “spituality”

oh dear.

Surreal.

shoephone,

rock is wonderful, but three chords can only get you so far.

Prof Foland
In last thread asked a question as to whether I had said to keep an eye on airforce promotions. Yes that probably was me ‘though I can’t remember the precise occasion. The close connections between the ranking officers in the USAF and various evangelical/fundamentalist churches is very well known. You may recall for example that last Catholic and Jewish trainees at the academy complained that they were being subjected to harassment on the basis of their religion. You may recall also that upon investigation their complaints were held to be justified. Googling will bring up the reports for you. Sorry but am awfully rushed today.

Moreover the connection is very old and goes back to the 1940s. The Moody Science Institute (an offshoot/division of the Moody Bible Institute established a close relationship with the USAF training arm. The upshot of this I’ll (sorry time lack of) briefly say is that USAF personnel were exposed to creationist “science” with no rebuttal material. Lot’s more I could go into on this but the examples are so well known (and so connexted with “southernification” of your officer corps in all branches but particularly the USMC and the USAF. Feel free to leave a comment on either of my blogs with your email addy (doesn’t get published of course) and I’ll try to make the time to fill you in a bit more.

I’ll add at the risk of somebody telling me how they I’m being condescending and how hurt they are by that, that people like me have been screaming about this and its impact in my case for the past 25 years.

PS: I don’t know if prof foland is around and in any case I’m runnig late would somebody be nice and draw his attention to it.

*poof*

Should reaf

The Moody Science Institute (an offshoot/division of the Moody Bible Institute established a close relationship with the USAF training arm from there the connections expanded mostly by osomosis and the natural progression through the ranks of the trainees and their instructors.

*poof poof poof*

markfromireland,

I don’t know about your case, but you are 100% correct. I only disagree concerning the USMC. That organization is its own religion.

I read somewhere that 100% of the suicides at the USAF academy over the past 10 years have been kids who were Jewish, Catholic or agnostic/atheists. I suppose a fungelical might respond that the statistic proves some point they could bring up in their defense, but investigations in several cases have shown the majority of the victims had been heavily stressed by the godsquad.

poof:

Moody was a founding member of the John Birch Society.

“I’m proud of everything our boys have done trying to serve.â€

info warfare 101″ busted ghostman

yo, ghostie, and i’m sure as hell not going to say, w/all due respect.
i’ll answer your question if you’ll answer mine, you proud of negroponte and the death squads? psyops? my lai? ishaqui?

get real, you’re a tool

godsmack ha!

1. Livin’ In Sin

Once again my friends, storm clouds are rolling in. Broken inside myself. Can’t seem to break this trend. Can’t break it! Chorus: And I’ve seen it all, and I’ve walked it tall. Lived in this sin…where do I begin? Caught between the lines. My life of worthless lies. Shedding my skin to begin a life that I don’t know how to live in…I can’t take it. (Chorus) I don’t know now, where to go now. I don’t know if I’ll ever get ahead, no. It’s all broken Not a word spoken. And I don’t know how to go out. God help me now!! I’ve seen it all. And I’ve walked it tall. Lived in this sin…livin’ in sin!…..Where do I begin?

Ed*ard Teller #128 – Whatcha talkin’ about? You never hearda AC/DC? (Well okay, that’s maybe four chords, but still..)

freepatriot @ 119

To be clear, Terry ‘Geezer’ Butler wrote the lyrics to War Pigs, and Tony Iommi wrote the riffs… Ozzy wasn’t deeply involved in the songwriting process with that band, and tends to depend on others for his material to this day.

And is this ‘rocket surgery’ line of work something that you yourself are involved in?

Sounds awfully complex.

Closing comment from ET:

Periodically, I’m asked to talk about the social responsibility of composers. Most recently, that talk was titled “The spiritual underpinnings of my protest music.”

One thing I try to point out in those talks is that the immense amount of work many musicians put into their craft gets them into a modality where they view involvement in social and political issues as time away from practice and rehearsal.

Playrights, novelists, poets and many visual artists tend to be far more politically aware than most musicians. Or should I say, most white musicians.

When I was writing protest music in the early 1970s, I was surprised at the lack of interest in the context of my works. I’ve gotten used to it since, and now laugh when something inane of mine is termed “pithy,” – http://www.adn.com/life/arts/s…..6157c.html – but something politically visceral is kept from being performed for two years or more by moderately organized efforts.

Since that same time – the 70s – most rock groups have had to become whores some or all the time. The best putdown on how that idustry became ridiculously organized was a mid-70s movie, “Phantom of the Paradise.”

Forgot to point out: “Phantom of the Paradise” – Best Paul Williams movie ever. He’s the coke dealer in the Rolls in “Easy Rider” and was a major behind-the-scenes player in late 60s to mid-70s Hollywood low budget films.

Ghostman: If you are still here…I must admit I have felt uneasy about your posts from the very beginning…first you were obsequious, then fauning, then chirpy, then begging our indulgence, then all knowledgeable, then coy. Tonight you are something else and I have never gotten an authentic ring from you. Will the real Ghostman please stand up? And show some class?

Ed*ard Teller…Your memory plays tricks, sir. Paul Williams, indeed, is the villianous Swan in Phantom, but Phil Spector is the limo-bound coke dealer in Easy Rider.

The Ghostman-Jane back-and-forth mushroomed into something else, but as an active-duty military officer (and big fan of the liberal blogs), when I read the interview, this was my impression:

1.) The singer is clearly not the most sophisticated political thinker.

2.) As someone else said, the interview was an ambush. For Babcock, for many people on this thread, and presumably for Jane since she posted and endorsed it, “allowing your song to be used in a Navy recruiting campaign” = “supporting the Iraq War policies”.

I don’t think there’s a clear-cut answer here, but whoever equated “using the song” to “I was just following orders” was just dead wrong.

Is anyone on this list going to argue that we don’t need a military? That what’s happening in Iraq somehow obviates the need for a military? The Iraq War is clearly having an effect on military recruiting and it’s stressing the military, but the military still needs to recruit. The military system, which is much larger than the Army- and Marines-heavy deployment to Iraq, needs a constant stream of new recruits because that’s how the treadmill is designed. Join, start at the bottom, get promoted a few times, leave after a few years, or a dozen years, or a twenty-year career, because there’s always more people behind you. The military system is built on growing your replacement talent because no one in the military sits in one place. It’s up or out.

To be a little more specific here, if this song is being used by the Navy, why are you all bitching? The Navy is not dying in Iraq, but the Navy is doing things like responding to Southeast Asian tsunamis and earthquakes in Pakistan. Sailors are afloat, or underwater, or in the air, all over the world, not just in Iraq. Should the Navy not be trying to keep its enterprise together because of the Iraq War? The military is stressed, but why do you all want to add to their woes by demanding people stop supporting recruiting?

So Jane, please explain the humor to me. I see an interviewer trying to equate vague and inarticulate support for the military, voiced by an incoherent rock star, with responsibility for the policies of the National Command Authority. At what point did it get funny? From the beginning, or only when the cornered, bewildered star came out with “go live with Saddam or Osama!” Where’s the humor, or the great moral victory here?

A hallmark of the recent debate has been the steadfast refrain from the Left that you/we “support the troops” even when opposing the policy, but now you, Jane, and many of the commenters here are coming dangerously close to saying the military shouldn’t be recruiting–or that we as individuals and a society should not support recruiting–so long as you oppose the Iraq War.

Recruiting is a very tricky situation; it’s a major commitment to the only profession that demands the potential for full sacrifice. The military is the only profession that mandates its practioners be ready to give up their lives if need be. The need for a military trancends any one policy of the moment. Young men and women should be fully informed and aware of what’s at stake, and I wish that no one felt that they had been hoodwinked or screwed over by a recruiter (and unethical behavior by recuiters should not be tolerated). But for those of you who want to blame any and all recruiting or the recruiters, who are trying to do their jobs (which by definition means trying to persuade recruits to volunteer), I gotta ask: is your solution to the Iraq War to just wish the military away for the duration? And then magically bring it back when the time is right for a better policy?

To put in more appropriate FDL terms: if you don’t like the current Attorney General or his policies, then you should oppose Fitz recruiting new lawyers into the Justice Department.

Ah well. Probably already EPU’ed.

It is obvious that this Godsmack guy was more interested in making money than the artistic integrity of his music. It’s obvious he’s just a drone of the corporation that represents his band. “I was just told to do press today, man.” It’s obvious he has people telling him where to go and how to tie his shoes.

Like here:

WHY DON’T YOU DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU GET INVOLVED WITH THESE SORTS OF THINGS? YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT YOUNG KIDS’ LIVES.

It’s possible the band was trying to capitalize on the “war fever” in May 2003. (You know, “mission accomplished,” yada yada yada.)

It’s obvious he’s a complete dumbass. Most of the interview was pretty funny because Sully is obviously a moron and a corporate pawn.

But the guy started to stray towards the end. I cannot describe my sentiment with his last few points. Is he completely against the military? I am just having trouble understanding what we’re supporting here. Are we anti-military?

I did like a couple of their songs off their first album. Time to throw that shit away and never buy again. What a fucking douche. What an amazing contrast they are to people like Neil Young, Pearl Jam, Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Tori Amos, Floyd. Maybe they’ll start touring with Nickelback and all will be right with their world.

Heh, not surprising considering Godsmack’s music. A band utterly devoid of talent. Godsmack was a good Alice in Chains song, though…

I hate this kind of “artist†for personal reasons. First off, not too long ago a very very good old friend of mine died from a poorly treated injury he got in the army. I won’t go into the story. It’s too painful and personal. I bring it up merely to try and analyze why I cannot tolerate those “be all you can be†commercials. Because to me the army can mean neglect and uneven, good to piss-poor medical treatment of the malpractice kind.
Second, I’ve seen these army-mercials that look like video games. It’s disgusting. I think I’ve even heard this band. If it is the one I am thinking of, it’s got this jocky, schmaltzy aspect that plays so well into the kind of political pornography that BushCo looks for. A codpiece and some Godsmack. It’s kinda hard to articulate and it’s pukeworthy.
I’m glad the interviewer stuck it to them. The band sounds like a bunch of redstaters.

MarkfromIreland (129)

In WWII, an overwhelming percentage of the officers consisted of graduates of the largest military college in the US, Texas A&M University. It was rumored that once a year, when the Aggies held their annual reunion, that the Pacific war came to a grinding halt.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons that the officer corps remains so heavily southern today. And since Aggieland is well ensconced in the Bible Belt. . .
Today, Texas A&M is no longer exclusively a military school.

In all honesty, Sully (and I guess Godsmack as a band) sound like one of those that subscribe to “blind patriotism.”

What do you call a drummer whose girlfriend has broken up with him?

– Homeless

What do you call a drummer who has broken up with his girlfriend?

– Clueless

Why is this here. Godsmack is just a formulaic nu-metal band. They aren’t saying anything, ever. Would you trash Kid Rock for being all Gung-Ho? No, because these guys aren’t paid to think, their paid to yell nonsense into a microphone real loud until it sounds extreme. Of course they sing about war and violence, peace isn’t extreme. Nobody’s blood pumps at the thought of consensus. I can’t imagine the military using any track from the more political artists. Can you imagine that same commercial with say, Sting, or U2 playing over it. It’d be a stupid commercial, and then we’d have nineteen pages of lame Sting interview here instead of one with Sully.

Ghostman, the metaphor of someone beating a woman doesn’t apply. There is no one to laugh at in that situation. No ignorance and hypocrisy is being exposed. Also, if something is happening right in front of you of course it’s not funny. This is funny because the guy is fumbling to avoid any appearance that he’s only interested in cash and doesn’t think there’s any repercussions that result from using his music in a recruiting ad. It’s funny in a “what a moron” sort of way. And I’m at a loss to see where he attacked the soldiers. Seems he’s only attacking the gov’t the DOD and the military as an institution. I think he’s trying to save young men’s lives and believes they shouldn’t be dying for a lie.

Thanks to those who expressed what I call “warm fuzzies” for my boy.

I’d like to add that this reminds me of a friend of mine who joined the army. He joined the army because it has, apparently, the largest amount of special forces. He wanted to be in the special forces because he “wanted to be a badass”. No other reasons.None.

wuweiblu

I guess I am biased here because ever since I was a kid, I’ve wanted to serve. I would take pride in serving my country. For me, it wasn’t some commercial or song that makes me want to do it. I have always believed it was my patriotism that sparked that desire.

I am planning on enlisting soon after college graduation, though I have minor back and knee issues. So I guess I take issue with what appears to me to be Jay’s anti-military tone.

(EDITED)

wuweiblu, my friend joined the army for financial reasons, but I think he also wanted to be a tough guy and saw a video game version of the army so to speak. He also had this gung-ho brother who told lots of stories. My friend changed his opinions later.

Matt O., I have no problem with serving in the military. I just I wish that some of the recruits had their eyes wide open. I think the military deserves more than Godsmack.

mui

I agree. I think some people do it for the wrong reasons – license to kill, racism (I’m sure of that), feed a violent hunger, or even believe it’s just like in the movies/video games, etc.

But I also think about the good guys that are in the military for legitimate reasons, like patriotism, duty to country, to raise themselves out of poverty and get specialized skills, or to become U.S. citizens.

I guess with this war I do not want us to make a mistake, or what I believe to be a mistake, by demonizing the military in a generalizing manner. When I read stories about Vietnam vets coming home and getting spit on, it really hurts my heart, especially when so many of those guys were drafted into the war.

I have my bones to pick with the armed services, no doubt. Certainly how recruiters prey on young people like predatory credit card lenders. The use of white phosphorus on Fallujah was another thing that really enraged me.

I suppose you can say I am a bit torn.

hey respectful dissent, who are you dissenting? there’s a reason godsmack is used to recruit. that kind of music has an appeal to a certain class of people. the military thrives of those sorts of people, the ones who don’t really think it all thru. you know why? because this is not an honorable war. do i blame the soldiers? hell no. it’s one thing to join the army when your down on your luck, or not very smart , a victim of the system, uneducated, uninformed, a victim of propaganda, its another thing to join when you know you are being used by people set on global dominance and greed, using societies casualties to occupy another country for the treasures. sure we need a defense department. but it is the powers that weaken the department by abusing the power of the government. whose idea was it to incorporate lying, info warfare, disinfo, into a core branch of the military? how can you expect people w/informed choice to fight a war that does not benifit the peoples of either this country or the occupied, only the corporations, the contractors, the elites and their cronies? whose idea is it to install puppet governments and negroponte death squads? if every general stood up/ not just the ones retired/ and revolted against rummy, if cpa wasn’t filled w/crony partisan hacks, if our tax dollars weren’t squandered and billions lost and spread for false news, if our elections and those of iraqis were truly free, if state department studies were respected, if forged documents wern’t replacing real intellegence, ,maybe it would be different. nobody w/brains signs on to a sinking ship. the boat’s got holes. starting w/the commander in chief. do you think if we didn’t have a fighting force right now we’d be in worse shape. who would invade? we don’t have a defense right now. we have offense. i support them coming home. i feel horrible young men w/the brains and maturity of this musician are loosing their lives for a cause that is a facade. since when is the job of our military to enforce ‘democracy’ abroad when ours in being flushed down the toilet?

“When I read stories about Vietnam vets coming home and getting spit on”

i am totally serious, i lived thru this period and i never saw this. i also never met anyone who claims they witnessed this. how prevelant was this? who gains by repeating this story? how many vets out there experienced this really? am i living in a bubble, or is this part of the info war?

weighing in on this ‘interview’, i didn’t think it was funny. it’s true the muscician seems dull-witted, incurious and unthinking- and this way of being is far too prevalent in our consumer driven culture. but i would have thought an interview approach that offered some possibility of the kid becoming more conscious would be what we all would hope for. i enjoy, and find release and relief, in the highly literate snark here every day, but it is also true that the polarization of woldviews is tearing this country apart. i really appreciate that this dialogue is happening.

What’s this mystique of the navy bullshit?

The navy provided cover for invasions of Iraqi territorial waters in May 2002. It ships supplies from comadeered bases such as Diego Garcia. It is a nuclear equipped and run war machine banned from at least one country ( NZ )
They also provide massive cover for ‘ black ops’ and brutal torturing bullies such as the Navy seals.
The Navy’s air force’s have probably killed most of the innocent’s killed in the last decade and so been responsible for a huge number of maimings and mutilations of children.
Fuck the swabbies ‘ just obeying orders’. I support the troops sure – THE TROOPS WHO FRAG!
Fuck the pentagon – a financial black hole and the worlds largest bureaucracy. Hit them again Sheik. Wipe them off the face of the earth and then we may have peace and a chance for justice.
PS – I vote to suspend Ghosteman for a week till he learns how to play nice.

annie -

I am too young to have lived in that period so that is second- and third-hand info I have gotten over the years. My uncle served in the 173rd Airborne in the late 60s/early 70s and I have heard stories of when they got back. Spit on, “baby killer,” etc. I’ve gone to his reunion dinners before and joined him in Veterans’ Day parades (November 11 is my birthday). I don’t have any reason not to believe him.

I do know Jane Fonda was spit on by a ‘Nam vet.

AOL Poll says Colbert’s jokes were funny by a 2-1 and 3-1 margins.

Annie,

Thanks for your insightful explanation about why people join the military. So, to recap, the 1.4 million members of the active-duty military (not including the reserves) join up because:
1.) They’re a certain “class” of people.
2.) They don’t really think it through.
3.) They’re down on their luck.
4.) They’re not very smart.
5.) They’re victims of the system.
6.) They’re uneducated.
7.) They’re uninformed.
8.) They’re victims of propaganda.
9.) They’re willing imperial enforcers.

Whew! Glad we got that straightened out! Now let’s check off the moral scorecard: for reasons #2 – 8, they’re indemnified against moral culpability because they’re victims and deserve pity. For reason #9, they’re clearly evil.

Annie, it takes 4 years to grow a captain, 9-10 years to grow a major, 15 years for a lieutenant colonel, 20 years for a colonel and 25+ years for a general. You don’t just hire them off the street. It’s the same thing on the enlisted side: it takes years to make Chief Petty Officer or Sgt First Class. As Steve Gilliard recently pointed out at The News Blog, the officer corps is also one of the most educated groups of professionals in the country, with years of civilian and/or professional military education built in. Their loyalty is to the Constitution and our system of government, no matter who sits in the Oval Office (yeah, yeah, I know that the stereotype is all officers are right-wing Republicans, just like Wes Clark). According to cherished professional beliefs, the military MUST rely on the civilian population to solve political problems.

You say, “of course we need a department of defense” … well, if you’re recommending that the military disobeys orders, scatters and goes home right now because of this war, you’re betting that we’re not going to need the military for anything in the next twenty years.

Might I suggest you take the time to get to know some actual officers and enlisted members and find out why they volunteered to serve, and if they’re older, why they continue to serve after they had the chance to get out? You might have to discard your stereotype that those who wear a uniform must be dupes, losers or fascists.

Professor Rat

>I support the troops sure – THE TROOPS WHO FRAG!

So, you’re advocating enlisted troops kill their officers?

>PS – I vote to suspend Ghosteman for a week till he learns how to play nice.

Oh, the irony.

Respectful Dissent -

I agree with you to a point.

However, in terms of filling out the grunts, the military is willing to take anybody off the street, so long as they meet certain medical and intelligence standards, but even then, they have been lowering those thresholds to combat poor recruiting numbers.

This part of her comment rubbed me the wrong way (in addition to a couple other parts):

its another thing to join when you know you are being used by people set on global dominance and greed, using societies casualties to occupy another country for the treasures.

I have thought about this a bit: how I don’t support this war but I want to serve after school. I am not sure a conscientious objector can object to one war and elect to go to another (I am against the War in Iraq, but support our efforts in Afghanistan, even though they f’d that one up, too, in favor of a war of choice.)

Unfortunately for me, I cannot choose when my window comes. (I want to put my time in while I am young so I can still start a family while I am in my twenties.)

(EDITED: I should also mention criminal standards also, though I thought I remember the Army lowering those as well.)

Respectful Dissent, are you in the states or abroad? which other blogs do you like? my father was army air-corps and 3 of his brothers, 2 of his brothers-in-laws and about 6 of my cousins are all military. in arkansas in the 40s it was one of the few ways to escape poverty and get a fine education.

This creep is obviously dumber than a board and clearly is a musician for the cash and the glory… Onviously he is ignorant og history or the politics of today and couldn’t care less.

I don’t listen to pop music because it is usually comopletey empty and the ideas conveyed are childlike and the lyrics largely imcomprehensible. Why does anyone bother with this rubbish anyway? Are there more important things in the world to devote you mind and action to? YESSSSSSSSSSSS

Respectful Dissent #163

Yeah, I didn’t like his comment about supporting the troops who “frag” either.

Hopefully he wasn’t serious but I don’t think it serves any purpose to say it in jest.

“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one”

Jane you’re the best.

Ghostman=Planted wingnut TROLL.In everyone of ITS posts, their has always been a peculiar smell to me. That troll just waits to come out and attack and stench up the site.

i would be very curious to know what others here think of this essay by
Wendell Berry, Thoughts in the Presence of Fear.

OT – FOX and Friends are doing a real snow job on Bush’s tax cuts.

Who’s that woman on there? She said “The tax cuts worked. … (paraphrasing) He knows if the money is in the pockets of Americans, they will spend it wisely and start up a small business.”

Yeah a small business, like Microsoft, because that’s who the money is going to, Bill Gates, not us.

Matt O,

It’s a tough question to answer: if you were to serve as a medic, for instance, are you less culpable from some outsider’s perspective because your job is to save lives? Or would you face the same criticism some here are leveling, just because you volunteered when the Iraq War is the largest (among many) commitments the US military is engaged in right now?

You will have to make the decision, but you should research carefully all the options: all the services, enlisted versus officer, different career fields, etc. I think many military professionals would suggest that if your goal is service, that service has a worth transcending any one policy or administration. The military can’t pick and choose OEF over OIF; the challenge is to do your job with integrity and honor. Abu Ghraib, bad. Capt Ian Fishback, who stood up to ask over and over what the US standards for the treatment of prisoners are, good. The military is imperfect, and it depends on the quality of recruits it brings in. As you note, the declining standards resulting from missed recruiting goals are worrisome, especially for the Army.

No, you absolutely cannot claim conscientious status for one war but not another. The question you have to ask yourself (assuming you don’t decide that you could do the Navy or Air Force but not the Army or Marines, or some such), is whether in a worst case scenario you could accept being sent to Iraq and putting forth your best effort even if you opposed the larger policy. I won’t pretend it’s an easy question or 100% black-or-white.

Brkily, I’ll say I’m abroad, and leave it at that. Regarding my Must-Read-Daily blogs, they’re the usual suspects: Eschaton, AMERICAblog, FDL, Jesus’ General, TBogg, Pandagon, The News Blog, Digby, TPM … and the Directory of Wonderful Things, BoingBoing!

Now they’re talking up the line item veto to cut back on spending… PLEASE! If you don’t like the bill, veto the spending bill then! Jesus! These people are morons!

Respectful Dissent

That is a decision I will have to make, and soon. If I do go in, I want to go into the Army as an intel analyst (96B). I am a bit skeptical I will even pass the MEPS.

If I do go in, post-service, I hope to get into politics (if I don’t go in, I plan to do so anyway).

What’s your MOS?

Respectful, be safe and thank you for your passion and generosity and thoughtfulness. i’ll call it a night, with one additional thought about war…
“I don’t know what weapons World War Three will be fought with,

but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones.”
– Albert Einstein

night all. (read some wendell berry!)

Matt O,

Checked out your homepage for an email address, but didn’t see one. I would be glad to discuss further but not out here in public.

-RD

That was a pair of assholes. Seriously.

Tommy Yum

Who were a pair of assholes?

off topic

raw story says there’s actually a plurality that believe fox is the most trusted news source

we’re in more trouble then I thought

me to me

I saw that, too.

I guess people like being told what to think, rather than make the decision themselves.

i can’t quit. i love this place. sometimes it’s like reading samuel beckett. waiting for godot.

tommy- you mean the interviewer and the interviewee, right?

trying to make the rent or mortgage payment, following starsearch and eating fast food is pretty much a full time job for many americans.

and we don’t have enough malls, either.

Jane, that is too funny. Godsmack getting gobsmacked.

and if congress doesn’t change hands this cycle, it’ll be the gulag for our snarky butts.

Thesaurus Rex, that at least would be an honest answer.
I actually like Godsmack’s music, and well, you know, this smacks of hypocrisy.
WE on the left are adamant in our feelings, why can’t they on the right be equally adamant?

I think the guy is wrong, but will defend to the death his right to be wrong.

We need a military. The military via the constitution must be controlled by civilians.

The problem is the civilian leadership is using the military as its own private gang to make political decisions.

Since Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are trying to make themselves and their bad decisions inseparable from ’supporting the military’, how can we criticize how they are using, abusing, and recruiting for the military, and not the young people themselves?

That is why they constantly conflate criticism of military actions (torture & shooting families) with dissing soldiers. They have to put the spotlight back on the one doing the criticising to keep the spotlight off of the wrong being to our soldiers by Bush.

leave it to grandma to put things in a nutshell!

Hilarious! But, I’m proud of the journalist who tried, but just couldn’t take the sheer IDIOCY of “Moron Sully” and finally LET ‘ER RIP! Ha~

i knew in an instant, when rummy started talking about downsizing- what he really meant was outsourcing. still supposedly our “army” but with no unaccountability.

accountability

these contractors get all the billions and our boys and girls don’t even get decent equipment. or decent food or water or health care when they get back.

and now they are deploying grandmothers with kids and grandkids, months away from retirement, to iraq. this administration are shameful thugs out for themselves. period.

Ghostman is not a troll, though he is wrong on this one. As many have pointed out, the interviewer may not be the sharpest pencil in the box, but clearly neither he (nor, it goes without saying, Jane) are belittling the actual troops. As for funny–well, haplessness is often funny.

Ghostman, many who regularly comment here are ex-military (I’d name names but I’d be afraid I’d get one wrong–but there are three regulars I recall off the top of my head), Matt O. and Respectful Dissent have spoken up; I work in nuclear port security myself. I think there are plenty of people here who are working to protect this country and take that mission seriously. It’s just unfair to say nobody around here is willing to stand up.

In normal times I think R.D. is exactly right–it takes time to recruit and grow a good professional core. What is happening now in Iraq, among many other disasters, is that that core is being slowly crushed to powder. But today’s recruiting programs aren’t really intended to fix that.

The right way to fix that is to offer good opportunities (as measured in training, rotations, and US dollars) and full backing (as measured in insurance policies, VA care, and armor) to attract high-quality candidates. Sure it costs money–like most quality things do. Instead standards are being systematically lowered. That’s not to say the recruits are low quality–it’s to say the people running the recruiting programs don’t really care what quality they are. Which to me says the recruiting programs are simply not focused on the long-term professional health of the armed forces.

That’s why I don’t find the comments about recruiting completely out of line. I don’t completely agree with them either (because, as R.D. points out, we have to manage to muddle through the job somehow) but I don’t think they are totally out of line.

I like how Sully would not just admit that Godsmacked sold out to “The Man”. This is pretty funny stuff.

From Thrasherswheat:

“The Four Dead in Ohio

Allison Krause – Age: 19, 110 Yards
William Schroeder – Age: 19, 130 Yards
Jeffrey Miller – Age: 20, 90 Yards
Sandra Scheuer – Age: 20, 130 Yards

Thirty six years ago, on May 4, 1970, an anti-war student demonstration at Kent State University, Ohio left four students dead, one paralyzed, and eight others wounded.”

http://www.thrasherswheat.org/…..oming.html

Never. Again.

Thanks for your insightful explanation about why people join the military. So, to recap, the 1.4 million members of the active-duty military (not including the reserves) join up because . . .
Yes, &agreement with GrandmaJ.
Thank you. It’s really not nice to those of us who have friends and family who serve or have served, or have even died in service to see them stereotyped. (As I mentioned a very good friend died a number of years ago although it sometimes seems like yesterday.) Speaking from the vantage point of a friend, many of those who serve are smart (If do I say so myself. Sometimes wrongheaded but essentially smart and well-meaning.)
The incentive to serve is often financial or family-related. I am doubtful that their good potential is always all that well-exploited. It is also the recruiting aspects I have a problem with, and the suspicion that they are not being well-used (re: Halliburton, or body armor). I am also against this war.

WHO GIVES A SHIT?

Who the fuck listens to Godsmack for their astute political commentary? Why the hell would that interviewer give a fuck who uses their songs? This is the same type of guy who would likely organize a boycott of his local Pizza Hutt cause they provide food inside the green zone.

And btw, who comes to FIREDOGLAKE for discussions of the politcal ignorance of some millionaire metal band?

I’ll be EPU’d in a minute I’m sure but,

wuweiblu says:
Of course they sing about war and violence, peace isn’t extreme.

Why not? Let’s have an Extreme Peace movement. It’s got to be more fun that getting your legs blown off in a ditch in Tikrit, eh?

peace,
jim

A fascinating read, this thread. From Ghostman to Matt O and Respectful Dissent and annie, a real diverse group of opinions. I object to the frag comment, which is not discussion and belongs somewhere else. I’m sorry that Godsmack has so little insight into how they’re being used; I know my son gave up on them long ago and looking at thier fansite, I can see why. But he listens to a wider variety of musical genres and can switch from Metallica to Fiona Apple to Cake on a dime, so he may be an outlier for his age.
I also appreciated what Matt and Respectful had to offer in terms of the international military responsibility outside Iraq, Afghanistan and now Iran. I think what we respond to so viscerally is the Abu Ghraib and offensive strikes, the difficult and (to me) “follow the Rummyleader while active duty” refusal to say no to an illegal war, which is their right and responsibility. (I know there is much more to this, I’m just waking up) I agree with Respectful that we need a military, but my overarching concern is that it has become altered and degraded by this war, in spite of it’s honorable mission. And I lay the blame not with the soldiers, but with Rumsfeld and Cheney and the Joint Chiefs for looking the other way.

As for Ghostman’s comments, I have been at firedoglake far longer and have read many posts by Jane, and particulary by Christy which are profound in their thoughtfulness and concern for our troops overseas and which prove Ghostman to be deeply mistaken and having more of a knee jerk reaction to the tone of the interview. He is misplacing his high-minded patriotism as an excuse to berate a style not understood. There is nothing unpatriotic about questioning Godsmack about this, just as there is nothing unpatriotic about asking Halliburton where the 9 million went. It is simply obscene when people capitalize on a corrupt war. In Godsmack’s case, ignorance and money appear to be the issue; with Halliburton, it is mercenary greed.

Great comment, Jim, I’m with you!

It’s also worth saying that an extreme band should be able to handle an extreme interviewer. People treated John Lennon like this during Viet Nam.

ZN 202–professor rat has more than once made me consider changing my moniker. I’ve been confused with Prof more than once and I’d hate to have that happen with rat.

Ghostman is either a troll or too obtuse to post on FDL. I say this based not just on today’s exchange, but also on his prior posts. He’s had a chance to make his points. From now on, I hope that Jane and Christy just Trex him and save us all the wasted time.

Zennurse, I couldn’t agree more. I hate it wehn it so standard to question the left, but considered downright unpatriotic to question the right, as if patriotism is saluting the chief thief wrapped in an American flag and swaying to Godsmack.

mad props to RH for the E&P piece.

GrandmaJ has got it right. Under the Cheney regime, the American military has been transformed into a private armed force carrying out Cheney’s personal commands.

Regardless of Sully Erna’s point of view about it — which is clearly a lot more ummm nuanced than the interviewer will let on — the military his music is used to recruit for no longer serves the People of the United States. They are not protecting “us”, they are in service to Cheney and his cronies, and they are advancing and protecting their interests at our expense.

It’s time to re-evaluate instinctive support for the troops.

Don’t forget, according to Zogby, 87% of them believe that the invasion of Iraq is justified by Saddam’s involvement in 9/11.

Where’d they get that idea? Even their beloved Bush denies there is any evidence of such involvement.

They don’t believe their Beloved Commander in Chief? Or do they think he is lying to us — not to them — and they think it’s just fine?

Memo to Ghostman.

“mc says:
May 4th, 2006 at 5:54 am”

“Never again.”

Now the kids shoot each other Columbine style. They have cut out “the man” in the middle.

As to the military, it is a victim of the “ownership society” touted by Bush. He thinks he owns the military and that they should behave as his personal mercenary army.

The arrogance of privilege is another one of Bush’s stinking corpses hidden in the parlor.

-GSD

I have to thank you for come calm and thoughtful commentary, Respectful Dissent. I have known a lot of people in the military who think for themselves. Democrats in the military are true hereos. I can tell you that people are kissing major military ass when veterans run for the Democratic Party. When reading the interview, I thought to myself how many liberal celebrities have embarrassed themselves (Seth Green and Erica Jong on Bill Maher come to mind) for being passionate but uninformed. It’s not a partisan problem.

No one here is criticizing Campbell-Ewald. No one is saying that the recruitment is not the problem, it’s the Bush administration’s misuse of the military. No one is pushing for reform of the military system. And no one is questioning that that 78% sexual harassment figure comes from a study over 10 years old.

Godsmack is an awful band whose lead singer is woefully uninformed. I would have to laugh if Paul McCartney was grilled by an interviewer about finances because he does commercials for Fidelity Investments.

OT. Did anyone else see CNN on Sunday when the new desk anchor…Roesgen is her last name, was talking to Ed Henry about congress and she said that Dr. Frist’s new gas rebate would “go over like a fart in church”?

It was one of the stranger things I have seen on a newscast. Me and my family roared when she said it and I replayed it 5 times on Tivo it was so funny.

Also, looks like Bush has wasted more money the on the Mama Hughes Happy Storytime Roadshow.

http://www.voanews.com/english…..-voa93.cfm

-GSD

GSD #213, didn’t see CNN on Sunday, but your description had me roaring with laughter!

Sounds like a clip for Crooks and liars.

had to stop reading the interview… could feel my brain cells dying (faster than usual)

!ztiF

Off to the new thread with you all.

–

I have to say it wasn’t very sporting of the writer to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I’ll put this here even though there is a new thread. I think rusty @ 210 needs to go back to Atrios or wherever he came from, that kind of comment is not helpful at all.

Music is a huge part of many young people’s lives.Godsmack’s audience is mostly of prime age to send into the battlefield.Music also goes with these kids when they end up in places in the desert with names that are hard for us to pronounce.Places where they damned sure might die and where their lives will be altered forever.

Sully Erma is an idiot.Another living exhibit of what happens to people when they have too much money and very little sense.Nitwits.They also think that somehow they’re above it all.

I saw the first wounded vet in my neighborhood yesterday.He’ll be 20 next week.He’s missing a leg,half a hand,and is recovering from head trauma.

My daughter is 23(and I have a grandson,named Sully,lol),my son just turned 12.The young wounded vet I saw yesterday is a baby to me.I went all Momish and had to go to my car to cry for half an hour before I could continue my errands.This young man was in good hands,Mom,sister and grandma taking care of him.I wonder how many of these young people don’t have that support?There’s NO excuse for one of them to ever do without anything,ever again.

Every pro warmongering,warprofiteering,unthinking,callous,selfish,self serving American Dumbass should have to spout their nonsense in front of a convention center full of veterans and their families,and let those vets best decide among themselves what to do with any particular moron who thinks this is all big game of Risk.

I hate people who cannot dig deep enough to understand that you never lie a nation into war or do any act of premptive war because it forever hurts families,often causing permanent harm.It’s why war is supposed to be the very last alternative.I guess that bar got lowered right into the dirt,didn’t it?

I’m having to educate my son to avoid and understand how he could be manipulated into the military.Before this war,I would have encouraged him to consider military service as a possible option for his future.Now in good conscience I can’t.That pisses me off,every male in my family has done some sort of military service,I’m proud of that.

This country needs a National Reality Check,Sully is just one little symptom of a much larger problem.

Respectful Dissent you said:

…if you were to serve as a medic, for instance, are you less culpable from some outsider’s perspective because your job is to save lives?

I was totally aware pilots I pulled out of the jungle could be back in napalm loaded aircraft in short order. It bothered me a lot but did not impact my sense of duty to my life saving mission one little bit. Combat medics set the standard for “supporting the troops”.

–

Don’t belittle all those boys who died….and died on battlefields and in oceans across this globe…just so bubble-headed people could belittle them, as has been done here. Ms. Hamsher, I protest and object

This is what you said, G’Man … don’t back away from your words .. and no one belittled them .. only the purpose to which they are being ordered to enact.

Ain’t singin’ for Pepsi
Ain’t singin’ for Coke
I don’t sing for nobody
Makes me look like a joke
This note’s for you.

Angry Old Broad, you fucking said it RIGHT!

copy/paste that beautiful rant all over the web — please!

thanks
and blessings to you and your family!

Respectful Dissent:

I’m one who hates the current war, the current civilian leadership orchestrating the war, and the elected officials who let it all happen. I’m also someone who sends packages of treats and goodies to active duty soldiers stuck in far away places.

I have very little sympathy for rock stars who let their music be used for government propaganda, but are unable to back up their political views.

As was stated by GrandmaJ, but bears repeating, the Bush administration wants us to equate support for the soldiers with support for their policies. We’ve not seen this kind of success with propaganda since Goebbels.

Good luck to you wherever you are. And thank you for your service to our country.

To my mind Godsmack has joined the chickenhawk crew.

219 Angry Old (Momish) Broad: thanks for that; it was beautiful….

Now I know that Godsmacked is the cheerleader for the 32% who favor Bush I wonder if the GOP will start using them in fund raisers?? Has anyone checked out Google’s little ditty? You go to Google, type in “Asshole” then hit Feeling Lucky … don’t know how long it will stay up.

I think the more interesting question is whether anyone can just come out and say “I’m proud of everything our boys have done trying to serve.â€

Does that include Abu Ghraib?

My final thoughts on disparaging the intellect of musicians (or any other aggregation), a la Freepatriot @ 37/119

I avoid generalisations about the professions of others, in the opinion that such a broad brush is wielded by those who cannot prove their points otherwise, electing to group together what cannot be evinced separately in the fervent hope that a large calumny will be found more convincing than an infinitesimally smaller one, and that no one will catch their lazy rationalizations.

Far more preferable, and enlightening, to judge individuals on their singular activities and performance of same.

“War Pigs†is excellent lyrically.

The original RAWKS; the rhythm section is just awesome. Didn’t Ozzy re-record “War Pigs” with the political lyrics replaced with his standard demon-blood-coffin-maggots BS? Ooh, edgy.

Poor Worcester. It’s not the most exciting town, but I have no idea what they did to deserve Godsmack.

Someone may want to alert the gentleman that HUAC has been dismantled and that McCarthyism is supposedly dead.

Zennurse @ 218 – indeed there is a new thread. the image is a bit ironic in light of your post. if you want to stand up for the ghostman go right ahead. personally, i feel that once the comments about some idiotic rocker go past 200 it’s okay to inject a bit of humor. sorry if your virgin ears were offended.

@dissent
” there’s a reason godsmack is used to recruit. that kind of music has an appeal to a certain class of people. “

“Thanks for your insightful explanation about why people join the military.”

no, thank you for providing me w/an excellent example of how you have twisted the meaning of my words. the characteristics you have listed in 162 are not indicative of all people who join the military, they represent my idea of what kind of people are attracted to music like godsmack. have you read the lyrics? i provided some earlier, i can copy more if you like? lets not pretend nobody gave it a second thought. let’s not pretend the military doesn’t troll for recruits in down and out poor areas and preys upon kids w/poor grades, endlessly calling their homes for months and showing up at peoples doors the summers after graduation.

” they’re clearly evil. ” one more perfect example of your need to extrapolate meaning from words not present. i have no problem quoting directly.

another thing, i dare you to provide me the name of just one example of your officer corps, you think are so worthy of respect, doesn’t have to be a colonel, major will due, just one, that signed up while we were involved in this war, you can’t can you, because 10 , 15, 25 years ago the military wasn’t illegally occupying a nation.
” You don’t just hire them off the street.” really, last i heard you could sign up at malls.
please, tell me how much you like godsmack. tell me again why you think my post was referring specifically to the officer corps, the cream of the crop. the military may be run by them, but we all know the majority legwork is kids, the mafority of people who die are children or a couple years older. some of them would not be allowed in the bar down the street.. so when you respond, please just stick to the kind of audience that appreciates to godsmack.

this is what i hate about the left sometimes. What if the special forces soldier that captures or kills Bin Laden signed up because of Godsmack? What then? Do we thank Sully or do we call him an uncaring warmonger? How about the Air Force pilot that has to shoot down a highjacked jet? What about the rescue airman that signed up because of Godsmack and picked New Orleaneans off of roofs for days on end with no rest?

FUCK YOU……….

tbizzie, why refer to what ifs that thus far have not occured in this war when there are examples of real people you can refer? no one has captured bin laden. no one has shot down a highjacked jet thus far in this war.(well, maybe if you count ‘what we don’t know’ about flight 93)

i was referring more to people like my nephew who signed up. his grandfather who raised him is a proud marine. when i ask him how he felt about innocent iraqi who have died in this war, or iraqis who truely believe they are fighting against an occupier, he told me he didn’t care about any arabs who die. he really told me that. he just wants to go protect his buddies, other marines. he said he wouldn’t care if we just blew up the whole middle east. that’s just one voice, it hurts, because i never knew that side of him, and i love him.17 yrs old when he told me that. one day he may be one of the thousands who wake up a little older, a little more mature, wake up in the middle of a desert fighting an enemy and they don’t know why and wish they could turn back the clock, but stop loss will keep them for years.

so please, just stick to real examples. it’s hard to be on the outside looking in when you know there is a very well funded (our tax dollar)
propaganda budget designed to not tell us the truth about the war.

So a soldier signs up because of a band? That’s suspiciously close to the rationale offered in some criminal cases that ‘listening to the band’s hidden satanic messages made me commit the heinous acts, your Honor’…Would you want such an easily coerced individual placed in charge of such high-powered tools as an M16A2, a Blackhawk or an F-117?

And that’s the only scooby snack you’ll get today, troll-pal

annie, I was talking to someone a few weeks ago. Her neighbor’s kid has to pay a couple thousand or so for his marine’s uniform. He is signing up “because of 9/11.” It seems some believe *still* that there is a connection Osama/Hussein. It’s so frustrating. I wish there was a way we could reach some of these kids, so at least they are going in with their eyes open.*sigh*

“So a soldier signs up because of a band?”

partly, music is used all the time to cause psycological reaction, just like at the gap. some people actually go to college to learn how to manipulate thru special effects. think about it. we don’t have that many senses. what comes in thru our ears effects our choices all the time.

“Do we thank Sully or do we call him an uncaring warmonger?”

hm, could you find me an exmple of one poster here who implied sully was a warmonger? there is so much rich material to choose from, why grab at straws that don’t exist to refute a point no one is making?

mui, i know, it breaks my heart. one would think if the war was so honorable why anyone would have to lie to get us over there. but that’s what they did, because they knew we would never give them the funds or authority if we had the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

i know there aren’t many people reading this thread anymore but i want to say this. the $300 million we spend on disinfowarfare? some of it lands here. they hang on blogs, and they don’t speak freely. they go by the book, there are certain charactaristics used you can spot right off.

they fight an agrgument no one is making, putting themselves in the place of victim defending accusations never made. they don’t work off actual quotes. by using this ‘false postion’ they defend tooth and nail, and move the conversation in the direction that suits their purpose. rarely , if ever do they ever respond to the points you make that are logical and enter in to a dialogue w/an open mind meant to move thru a topic to and end that has mutual growth. for example, instead of addressing the characteristics of the type of person that may join the military because of the commrderie one finds in the lyrics of godsmack, dissent chose to use all my descriptions to defend high rank officers. quite a long and convincing post, but thoroghly not on the topic i was posting about. just sayin

Annie @ 238:

With respect, ‘Partly’ doesn’t quite cover it…There’s a big difference between buying a pair of jeans at the Gap because the latest TRL ditty ‘tells you to’, and signing away two years of your life in service for your country.

One would think that an individual who couldn’t grasp such a differentiation for themselves would be unqualified for anything military above detailing Humvees at the motor pool, if that.

Myself, I don’t think Erna’s a warmonger…He’s just a dude in over his head, being asked to justify decisions above his pay grade.
Management comes to guys like this and says “Hey gang! Got a great deal today for licensing, lotsa bucks, sign here!”, and they sign and go back to their passing interests.

Esoteric matters of ethical propriety aren’t what keeps them awake at night.

Sooooo,

Exactly how much money were they paid for the use of their music? I know how much I got paid for a dumb little auto commercial in a small market, and it wasn’t tiny.

IMO, it’s kleptocracy-as-usual, musicians’ version.

Annie, I know what you’re saying. That happened to me when trolling another blog. I accidently said Lieberman doesn’t like abortion when I meant to see he’s not prochoice. You will find my sentiments echoed aruond the New Haven area. At any rate, this person by the name of red dog or something took my statement and started hammering me with it so to speak, wouldn’t let me rephrase, etc. Some of these people are really dishonest in the way they argue.

from May 2003-
>>>>>
Rock Band Godsmack visits Mayport Sailors

By JO1 Christopher E. Tucker
Staff writer

Known for their song ”Alive” used by the Navy in its ”Accelerate Your Life” recruiting commercials, Godsmack visited with Sailors at Naval Station Mayport on April 29. A crowd of approximately 200 Sailor and family members stood in line for up to an hour to get autographs, pose for pictures and talk to the band, who were in Jacksonville as part of their ”Faceless” tour.

”This is great,” said EW2(SW) Martin Healey, a Sailor from USS John F. Kennedy (CV 67) who had his guitar signed by the band. ”It’s a great boost in morale. It’s nice to see they appreciate [their Navy fans], as much as we appreciate them.”

Godsmack’s lead singer Sully Erna said he was more than happy to take time out of their tour schedule to visit with Sailors. ”I’m honored to be a part of this country. We have the best military in the world. I fully support the military and the president of the United States. We appreciate what the Navy does for us and this is our small way of giving something back,” Erna said.

As a testament to the band’s popularity among Sailors, ET2 Sean Buckley of USS Vicksburg said he used Godsmack’s visit as a motivator aboard his ship.

”All of my Sailors worked hard to finish painting so they could get a chance to meet these guys. It was the fastest I’ve ever seen them work,” Buckley said.

In addition to making themselves available for Sailors at Naval Station Mayport, Godsmack made their concert tickets available to military members at a substantially discounted price. Through the Morale, Welfare and Recreation (MWR) Department, the naval station was able to sell more than 500 tickets to the band’s concert.
http://www.mayportmirror.com/s…..s001.shtml

Pookapooka @ 241:

Campbell-Ewald put the ‘Accelerate Your Life’ Campaign together…Since it was national, with radio/tv/net spots, the cut was juicy.

As for cash figures…For contrasting purposes, GM was willing to pay $15M (US) to the Doors for Break On Through in the same ‘02 campaign that they eventually used Rock And Roll by Led Zeppelin for around $10M.

Godsmack’s nowhere near that, but you get an idea of the ballpark that they’re playing in.

As for cash figures…For contrasting purposes, GM was willing to pay $15M (US) to the Doors for Break On Through in the same ‘02 campaign that they eventually used Rock And Roll by Led Zeppelin for around $10M.
I’ll bet John Lennon loved that. *snark*

darkblack, absolutely there is a difference morally. i guess what i meant to say was that music has been used extensively for all kinds of persuasion and while i wouldn’t make the clain tbizzie makes that someone signs up because of a song, i would make the claim the song makes a difference, otherwise they wouldn’t pay so much to use them for recruitment, and hire proffessionals to make choices about which music will bring in the most recruits, they are targeting ‘their audience”

mui, of course they never identify themselves, but i’ve read in msm in the last month how they have expanded their blog activity. so we have to assume they are trained, to go by the book, w/certain tactics. i will again post a link i posted earlier because i’m too lazy to find where it is upthread. http://www.cjr.org/issues/2006/3/schulman.asp

” the concept of military information operations, or IO, was undergoing a remarkable transformation. On October 30, 2003, Donald Rumsfeld signed a secret Pentagon directive, in the works for at least a year, known as the Information Operations Roadmap. The work of Christopher Lamb, then the Pentagon’s deputy assistant secretary of defense for resources and plans, it established IO as a“core military competency, on par with air, ground, maritime, and special operations.†Until then IO, which includes such subspecialties as military deception, psychological operations (psyops), and electronic warfare, had been considered an activity that merely supported combat operations, but it has taken on a prominent role in the war on terror. ”

” frequently includes statements that are subtly derogatory.”

“Propaganda, even the kind intended for specific audiences, can turn up anywhere — on the news wires, in newspapers, on blogs or Web sites. “They’re not going to know that they were written by some information-warfare guy,â€

it would be foolish to think they aren’t here. where are they going to go? the lesser trafficed blogs? why?

Annie @ 246:

On that, we have concordance…Such audio material is never chosen haphazardly, whether one is selling carrots, cars, or a camouflage future.

Using it makes the ‘hot’ concept to be sold seem, to use an overused word, ‘cool’ (in the McLuhanesque sense) and allows for the exploiting of any latent ‘presold’ mentality within the viewing demographic.

I have always liked the Heavy Metal style of music, among the vast array of other forms available. It’s a magnificently powerful set of textures…But there are elements of it that are right out of the Riefenstahl playbook, in terms of participant and viewer manipulation.

that kind of music has an appeal to a certain class of people. the military thrives of those sorts of people, the ones who don’t really think it all thru. you know why? because this is not an honorable war. do i blame the soldiers? hell no. it’s one thing to join the army when your down on your luck, or not very smart , a victim of the system, uneducated, uninformed, a victim of propaganda,

Followed by:

Thanks for your insightful explanation about why people join the military. So, to recap, the 1.4 million members of the active-duty military (not including the reserves) join up because:
1.) They’re a certain “class†of people.
2.) They don’t really think it through.
3.) They’re down on their luck.
4.) They’re not very smart.
5.) They’re victims of the system.
6.) They’re uneducated.
7.) They’re uninformed.
8.) They’re victims of propaganda.
9.) They’re willing imperial enforcers.

Whew! Glad we got that straightened out! Now let’s check off the moral scorecard: for reasons #2 – 8, they’re indemnified against moral culpability because they’re victims and deserve pity. For reason #9, they’re clearly evil.

Then followed with:
no, thank you for providing me w/an excellent example of how you have twisted the meaning of my words. the characteristics you have listed in 162 are not indicative of all people who join the military, they represent my idea of what kind of people are attracted to music like godsmack. have you read the lyrics?

You complain about RD twisting your words when it sure looks like s/he was on target(I won’t even get into how you then commenced to do the same thing you accuse RD of doing because that’s worth a whole ‘nother post). Apparently you have an idea of the kind of person the military targets, though, so far be it from me to attemt to change your closed mind.

Support the troops apparently doesn’t extend to the recruiters, the military equivalent of used car salespeople. It’s easy to vilify the recruiters who are tasked with a thankless job, pressured to meet their quotas-yes,they have quotas-while taking flak from people who take out their anger at administration policies on them.

Oh, and about the so-called “myth” of returning VN troops being spat on-it’s no myth. It happened to the husband of a friend of mine and there was a column in today’s local paper about a former troop who was spat on when he returned from VN. Even if those two were the only ones to whom it happened, it did happen.

Who knew that Godsmack were such chickenhawks? I mean, I knew that they were a suck-ass Mallcore band, but I had no idea they were a more successful version of Right March.

This thread, heated at times sure took a long time to wind down.

Ghostman made 14 posts in two hours and really had his ears boxed with 42 further mentions of his name, none in a flattering context I should add. Somebody remind me never to piss Jane off.

Regarding Vietnam Veterans being “spat” upon, the story is both true and false at the same time. Even though almost all returning VietVets never were spat upon, many, perhaps even most, were shunned one way or another, for a thousand different reasons, by their own hometown communities.

The consequence of being spat upon is to be shunned by your community. We spit on people to encourage them to go away. If the shunning occurs without all the actual spitting so much the better.

The dispute regarding spitting fact or spitting myth is a distraction from the irrefutable fact that returning VietVets were shunned as if each of them haqd been spat upon when they returned home.

And that’s what makes the story true, whether or not even a single returning VietVet was spat upon at all.

–

This interview sucked and the interviewer is a moron. Shit like this is what the right uses to paint all of the Democrats or the left in general as not supporting our troops. Who cares if Godsmack lends their song to the commercials? Who cares if they play shows for the troops? Are we supposed to believe that the military wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for bands like Godsmack and their music that pumps people up for war?

See? I can put words in peoples’ mouths too! It’s as retarded an argument as half of the shit Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly use nightly on FOX. Don’t blame the tool (i.e. the military) blame the one who uses it improperly (i.e. Bush and his crooked pals). Plenty of American presidents have presided without mis-using our military, and plenty will in the future. Recruitment will happen. Get over it and focus your energy and your retarded questions for the people who deserve them, not moronic cock-rock singers who wouldn’t know their ass from a hole in the ground if the TV told them it was both.

I just smashed my old Godsmack CD with a hammer, and burned out Sully’s face with a bic lighter. There, now I feel a lot better. That music sucked bigtime anyway, and their new stuff is even worse. When Godsmack is played on the radio, it’s my cue to find another station.

“Dude, [yelling] WHY DON’T YOU GO LIVE IN IRAQ THEN IF YOU HAVE SUCH A PROBLEM WITH AMERICA? Why are you here?”

What is with dickheads like this? Disagree with a war that they’re diggin’ and *you* should leave the country? And did you notice that he’s turned Iraq into “the enemy”? What ever happened to bringing “freedom” to the Iraqis (or does that always have to mean DEATH to these shit-for-brains)?

Ummm… I WORK at Navy Recruiting.

“The Military,” as far as this interview goes, is NAVY. As far as I’ve noticed, Navy is the only Branch using their songs.

The contract stipulates that we get “fair-use” access to the two songs, which amounts to something like 30 seconds of music… You’ll notice that the musical riffs repeat in the several ads in which their music is used. We don’t use the vocals, just the couple of riffs which we’ve rights to use. We pay ROYALATIES on every use of the music, each time it is aired. I helped wwork on the latest contract– that was nearly 18 months ago, and I’ve changed work-title since then.

IIRC, they have agreed to do a couple of 4-song appearances at a couple of events in the past, which Navy had sponsored in-part… One of the X-Games comes to mind, and an Hispanic event in Texas, and we PAID through the nose for those performances… they are NOT the be-all-end-all Pro-BushWar band… at all.

I lost interest in the direction of this interview about 1/2-way through. Godsmack is ambivalent to the contract, AT BEST. It’s about the Benjamins to them, and the contract is NOT that big. For the interviewer to get SO DOWN on them is pretty confusing to me. Really.

And supporting Navy isn’t such a bad thing. Sailors stand a MUCH better chance of NOT being shot at when they are floating 30 miles out to sea on a ship. In this age of BushWar, If someone feels they MUST join the Military, I URGE them to go Navy, for the safety alone.

Me? I’m a Disabled Navy Veteran, and happy to have served, really. And before anyone breaks out the Flamethrower, take a look at my GRAVATAR.

Anyone with recognition of my GRAVATAR will immediately know that I am one of the most vociferously Antiwar/Anti-Rumsfeld/Anti-Bush bloggers on the net, and a very heavy supporter of Left Blogtopia (which Skippy coined, BTW). Click the “Website” link above.

For me, working for Navy Recruiting is just a job, which gives me the steady paycheck that allows me to support my fellow bloggers, and damned good causes, so don’t get uptight with me, as I have dropped very good inside info to plenty of my peers for exposes on Recruiting.

Because I am where I am, I will be the FIRST to give the notice of any pending actions, or a potential Draft… See my DRAFT CODE, which I keep maintained, and available to bloggers.

Godsmack is a pretty crappy band, really, and not worth getting uppity about.

BTW… Campbell-Ewald is Navy’s Ad Company. They are located in Warren, Michigan. They are also Chevrolet’s AdCo.

Their website is HERE.

So, THERE is the full poop on this more than silly topic. I hope it helps clarify some things.

–mf

Fragging comes in under diversity of tactic’s doctrine. It has been a reality of every war that I’ve ever read about and was a MAJOR reason for ending the war on SW Asia by the USSA evil empire.
This Military/entertainment complex we are up against need’s full spectrum resistance. It is the Forth fucking Reich so I don’t resile from my views and I stand by my words. My nym is a nom-de-guerre not a pseudonym like some of the anonymous cowards around here.
It might help to have a policy from now on where people may be warned and if not responsive to warnings be suspended. That would provide natural justice for them and less ‘ noise’ for us inmho.
Thanks for raising these hot button issues with us Jane ( and Redd) ‘ Truth oft rings out through hammer blow’s ‘ sez Solon.
So long. Frag on.

sully from godsmacked, the hard rock britney spears.

Loan
background check

Godsmack is a god-awful mediocre band anyway. They took their name from an Alice in Chains song, who were actually a listenable group. Go listen to Ministry or Killing Joke or something if you want to hear politically conscious, heavy music.

The “Military/ Entertainment Complex” is minimal.

This article is not news, and really… i hoped that Jane would be above this on a slow news night.

I tried to send my comment as an email to Jane for clarification sake, but, I can’t find a “contact us” sort of link on the site. I hope that it is an oversight on their part. I’d be happy to engage in this discussion, and more about Recruiting, with Jane via email. I hope that she’ll go to Blah3.com, and hit one of my posts to send me and email. I’ll keep her secret email secret, and really lay some good details on her.

I’m not Mr. Pro-Navy, but, IF a kid wants to join the service, a urge the to go Navy for the safety aspect, alone. I’ve said that, and my years of posting to blah3, and Bartcop Forum, and Atrios’ comments, and Digby’s comments (I was amongst the first supporters of Atrios and Digby, as they came from the Bartcop Forum.) will prove that out. i am a SOLID veteran of the good fight, and have been on the scene longer than FDL. Your reputation is based on the Plame investigation, and that is where your focus should lie… not on the likes of… Godsmack?!?!?! That’s beneath you, and diminishes your creds.

I just want the truth told, and flamewars focused where they belong… not aimed at hapless fools like Godsmack. I’ve no love for Godsmack, I just know the real details of the deal, as I was a part of the deal. As luck (not) would have it.

Jane. Email me. I don’t want firebombs. I’m solidly on the Left. But, this post really came off as a post from, “The Jane Hamsher of the Left,” and I want to help you understand the way BIG MUSIC and Gubmint make contracts. You’re not in Entertainment Law, and I want to help you some, as long as we can keep all this on the DL. In a calm and professional manner. I cannot promise you a copy of the contract, but, i *might* be able to refer you to our JAG, who outlined the legal aspects of this contract. i want this fire put out, as it is not required.

I remember enough about it to tell you that it was a VERY basic “Fair use” royalty contract, that Godsmack really didn’t give a shit about it, even as they showed up at the BIIIG signing and Photo-op. it was about the handlers, and Navy’s AdCo. This is NOT a news thing, and really shouldn’t have been presented as a scandal, considering the source (Arthur) in context of their approach to what should have been an interview about a new album….
Having done my share of interviews with big music acts, I’d say that Arthur lost many opportunities, and burnt many bridges by over-pressing a non-issue. I wrote Magpie at Arthur she tracked it back to here, so you can see.

And no… this can’t be dot-connected to the way the Bushies are handling the media. If it could, I’d be waving a GREEN LANTERN for GO!… Sadly, NO!

–mf

Just made this post at Arthur having gone there after reading the above. First ever post to a blog Old Carolina Hippy loves FDL
——————————————-

I just stumbled into this and I am amazed. I wonder if the age of most of the above contributors is not about the same as the brave people that we have sent off to die and be mamed in Iraq? I hope that some of the thoughtful attention given this issue might be directed toward understanding how we as a country could have allowed this criminal war to happen. I don’t know any thing about the band in question. As a 60+ year old artist (painter) I have been faced many times with the temptation to “sell outâ€. I can not bring my self to damn the group, only hope that they re-examine what they have allowed their art to be used for. Finally I have only admiration for the remarkable young people who have volunteered for duty. Such a shame that they have been told one of the biggest lies in history about their mission. We all I suspect “support our troops†to some degree or another even if we hate the war. Perhaps there is a reason why the suicide rate amongst our troops in Iraq is at a signifcantly all time high. Fight for your artistic validity but also look to the larger fight we have as human beings.

Comment

Right On, Old Carolina Hippie.

I’m a Rainbow Hippie, working where i’d rather not, and totally agree with you.

Thank you for putting evertything into perspective. We needed you wisdom in this discussion, asit is spiraling out beyond the reams of silly.

HOWDY!

-mf

I liked Godsmack’s first two albums, but their third album, Faceless, came along, and it didn’t really do much new and a lot of it started sounding the same. IIRC, back in 2003 around the time of the war’s start, Sully made a comment about how some country had to take Hussein out at some point, so why not now?

Personally, unlike the cretins who turned on the Dixie Chicks, I can handle liking artists with a different political point of view. I can’t handle artists who make stale, derivative music.

Dave Mustaine, like Ted Nugent, Gene Simmons, and Alice Cooper, is now a professed Republican. I think the other three are hacks, but Mustaine made a solid comeback with The System Has Failed after basically bowing out of the music business. Despite his political persuasion, I’ll still buy his albums as long as he makes decent music. And Mustaine is quite intelligent, probably one of the most intelligent of mainstream heavy metal musicians (though his common sense may not be so great—he’s been a difficult person, alienating many of his fellow bandmates, and has a long history of drug and alcohol problems). Which makes his support of Bush baffling—how can anyone with any intelligence support him?

I think the worst thing about the Sully interview is how stupid it makes him look. He just looks like another dumb rock musician, perpetuating that stereotype, clueless about why he thinks or behaves a certain way. About all he can do is regurgitate the talking points of cable tv and say, “that’s not what I meant and you know it†a lot without expressing his view point clearly that is in any way different from what the interviewer said to get him riled up.

He seems like just one of the many gullible sheep out there. If you spoke to him at length on a variety of topics, he’d probably have a liberal or libertarian stance on the issues (the guy’s a Wiccan, for crying out loud). But he supports Republicans and buys into their talking points because he thinks that’s the way to go, possibly because it’s the tough, manly way to be.

And, as another poster mentioned, if you want some good blistering political protest in your heavy metal music, go to Ministry and Killing Joke. Both have new CDs out, both have been around forever, and both have been seething commentators on the state of society, corporate greed, the Bush administration, American imperialism, and the general downturn of the world’s fortunes.

I haven’t checked out the new Killing Joke, Hosannahs from the Basement of Hell, yet, but the new Ministry, Rio Grande Blood, is a full-force scathing thrashing heavy metal assault on Bush. Their last effort in 2004, Houses of the Mole, was an assault on Bush as well, but they’ve taken it up a notch. The cover has an unflattering likeness of Bush. In the title song, their Bush impersonator at one point says, “I’m an asshole†(while also saying other things like being a tyrant and a dictator). This album will easily be the most acerbic protest album this year (lyrics and thrashing heavy metal music combined).

There’s protest music out there for all musical tastes. Dixie Chicks, Neil Young, Pearl Jam, and Ministry, for starters.

The Arthur Magazine link is broken–and, in fact, all links to that magazine give now a 404 Error. (I tried Google, and discovered that Arthur Magazine seems to have vanished.) Weird.

should be gobsmacked

a href=http://burnercd.atspace.com>burner cd
criminal background check

http://www.godsmack.com/news/news.asp?item=101189

According to the official Godsmack site, “Sully holds his own!”

Could someone please explain exactly how that conclusion can be reached? What an idiot.

backgrounds
[url=http://bcheck.atspace.org/backgrounds.htm]backgrounds[/url]

broadway ticket [url=http://btickets.20m.com/broadway-ticket.htm]broadway ticket[/url]