So very predictable. Murray Waas breaks the story last week that details Karl Rove’s fifth trip to the grand jury. Michael Isikoff then crawls to Gold Bars Luskin, promises to print something that shamelessly flatters both him and his client and excludes any narration of the absurd holes in Rove’s story. Luskin’s all over that action.
As the Washington Post reported in July of 2005, Fitzgerald was quite surprised to learn that Libby was not Matt Cooper’s original source (probably because Libby had testified to the fact that he had brought up the subject of Wilson’s wife with Cooper, per Fitzgerald’s August 27, 2004 affidavit). Now we get a few more details:
Given permission to testify by Libby, who waived the usual reporter-source confidentiality agreement, Cooper met with Fitzgerald at the Washington office of Cooper’s lawyer, First Amendment expert Floyd Abrams. Yes, Cooper acknowledged to the prosecutor, he had spoken to Libby. And, yes, Libby had confirmed that Wilson’s wife had worked at the CIA and had played a role in sending Wilson to Africa on a fact-finding trip aimed at discovering whether Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was trying to buy uranium from the country of Niger. But according to Cooper, Libby had been offhand, passive—"Yeah, I’ve heard that, too," Libby allegedly replied when Cooper asked him about the role played by Wilson’s wife. In other words, Libby was not Cooper’s original source. Well, then, who was?
Fitzgerald seemed to be "surprised," according to a knowledgeable source who declined to be identified discussing a criminal investigation. He broke off the questioning to consult with a colleague, and then began to question Cooper over and over, methodically trying to make sure he wasn’t missing something. The prosecutor had to wonder: was someone else in the administration besides Libby a player in this drama? Fitzgerald is the sort of prosecutor whose very being is offended by deception and who will go to great lengths to pursue the truth.
Yeah well I can get a bit testy myself about being deceived, which is why the rest of this article is such an insult.
We now learn the mystery date of Rove’s missing grand jury appearance. It turns out he testified twice in January February of 2004. Twice? Does seem like something in Rover’s story wasn’t matching up, doesn’t it? Not to the incurious Isikoff:
But Rove never mentioned any conversation with Time’s Cooper. Then, in October 2004….
Wait, wait WAIT!!! You can’t just make a leap like that. What about all the stuff that happened in between February and October 2004?
….Rove, through his lawyer Luskin, suddenly turned over to the special prosecutor an e-mail, sent to Stephen Hadley, then deputy national-security adviser, that clearly showed that Rove had spoken to Cooper.. Reappearing before the grand jury that month, Rove acknowledged that he must have spoken to Cooper, but he still didn’t remember doing so.
No, in May of 2004 Cooper was subpoenaed — but Rove would not grant him a waiver to testify. Cooper fought the subpoena but Judge Thomas Hogan (who recently went on record as saying that underlying crimes were definitely committed in this case) found Cooper in contempt of court on October 13 and it became evident he would be forced to testify.
Two days later, on October 15 Rove made another appearence before the grand jury (at his own request, which apparently happened after Time agreed to hand over Cooper’s notes):
There the investigation stood until last summer—when Fitzgerald seemed to make a breakthrough. Threatened with jail, Cooper through his lawyer got a green light from Luskin to testify about his original source.
No, Cooper was practically in handcuffs when Luskin went running his mouth to the press, saying that if Matt Cooper was going to jail it wasn’t for Karl Rove. Cooper’s attorney Dick Sauber seized on that as a waiver (of sorts). If it wasn’t for Gold Bars’ love of seeing his name in print and Cooper had to rely on the goodness of Karl Rove’s heart, he’d no doubt be waterboarding in some gulag right now.
So why does Rove refuse to grant a waiver so long to someone he doesn’t remember talking with? Hmmm, good question. Don’t hold your breath waiting for anyone to ask it.
Cooper finally testifies on July 13, 2005. Not only does he remember the conversation, his emails to his editor at the time confirm the conversation (and oh the swift boating we would be witness to if he didn’t have them):
Now Rove was on the hot seat. Summoned back to the grand jury last October for a fourth time, Rove said it was "possible" that he had told Cooper about Wilson’s wife, but he had simply forgotten it. It appears that Rove’s lawyer saved his client from an indictment.
"Oh and while you’re at it, Mikey, make sure to add a little bit about me being such a hero? Thanks. You’re a peach."
Just before Fitzgerald indicted Libby last fall, he met with Luskin and told him that he was considering indicting Rove, according to a source close to Rove who declined to be identified discussing sensitive matters. Luskin, says this source, made a final plea. Among other things, Luskin told the prosecutor that sometime between October 2003 and January 2004 he’d had a drink with Time reporter Viveca Novak. An old friend of Luskin’s, Novak (who is no relation to the columnist of the same last name) surprised Luskin by telling him that Rove might have been Cooper’s source.
Okay, I get it. Before Karl appears before the grand jury for the first time in February 2004, Luskin hears from Viveca Novak that Cooper says Rove was his source. Follow me here, because we’re getting into the deep, heavily deceptive bullshit:
Last week, in an interview with NEWSWEEK, Novak described the conversation. Luskin, Novak recalls, said that Rove "didn’t have a Cooper problem," meaning that Rove had not been Cooper’s source. "That’s not what I hear," Novak recalls responding. At that point, Luskin’s demeanor changed, says Novak. "He got very serious from what I told him. He reacted as though he were learning it for the first time."
Is that all she told you Mikey? You sure? Because I can think of one other thing she might have mentioned….
Luskin alerted Rove to the conversation, but his client still didn’t remember it, according to a source close to Rove who declined to be named discussing sensitive legal matters. Luskin seemed to be signaling to Fitzgerald that Rove was truthful when he said he didn’t remember the Cooper phone call; otherwise, why would he testify as such when he knew that others, including Cooper, could contradict him? (One possible explanation: Rove may have assumed Cooper would protect him as a confidential source.)
So let’s just connect some dots here. Luskin tells Fitzgerald that if Rove had heard that Cooper considered him his source some time before he testified before the grand jury in Februrary of 2004, and Rove still didn’t mention the Cooper conversation, obviously that means he wasn’t lying. Now even the shameless Isikoff has to point out that Rove quite probably thought that Cooper would protect his source. But he neglects to mention that Viveca Novak thinks she probably blabbed to Luskin after Rove had already testified, and Fitzgerald seems to have some sort of independent corroboration that the conversation took place closer to March of 2004.
As Viveca herself recounted it in Time:
Fitzgerald had asked that I check a couple of dates in my calendar for meetings with Luskin. One of them, March 1, 2004, checked out. I hadn’t found that one in my first search because I had erroneously entered it as occurring at 5 a.m., not 5 p.m.
When Fitzgerald and I met last Thursday, along with another lawyer from his team, my attorney, a lawyer from Time Inc. and the court reporter, he was more focused. The problem with the new March date was that now I was even more confused – previously I had to try to remember if the key conversation had occurred in January or May, and I thought it was more likely May. But March was close enough to May that I really didn’t know. "I don’t remember" is an answer that prosecutors are used to hearing, but I was mortified about how little I could recall of what occurred when.
The very witness who is supposed to clear Rove can’t back up Luskin’s already bizarre story. Does Isikoff mention that Rove then took the highly unusual and rather drastic step of letting Luskin go in and give a statement under oath to the effect that he remembers the conversation with Viveca Novak taking place before Rove’s first appearance before the grand jury, as Murray Waas points out last week? No in fact he doesn’t.
Rove and his legal team hope they will be cleared soon. It is not clear whether Fitzgerald is just tying up loose ends or building a case.
That’s a rather optimistic outlook wouldn’t you say? I suppose it’s easier to come by if you leave out all the stuff about how Rove’s last minute hail Mary pass came crashing to the ground when Viveca Novak testified. I understand now. The facts of the case failed to reach the appropriate conclusion, ergo they were eliminated.
Isikoff then goes on suggest that Fitzgerald is only leaving the investigation open so he can deny Libby’s request for discovery due to the fact that it relates to an ongoing investigation (gotta spread a little love Barbara Comstock’s way too). Rove he describes as "jolly" and "cheerful."
No doubt Isikoff is "jolly" and "cheerful" himself. He’s probably back on his feet and gorging on a lifetime supply of cocktail weenies right now.



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fitz!
ok, got that out of the way, now a prediction;
cheney resigns due to “health reasons”, bush pardons him and appoints mccain or his brother as vp
bush resigns, probaby for health reasons also, and whoever is vice president pardons bush
what would America do if that happened?
good Lord, Jane – up ridiculously early or ridiculously late?
Question for Jane: When do you sleep???
I am confused…WOW Jane.
i heart jane.
“Rove and his legal team hope they will be cleared soon.”
Is it just possible Luskin himself will be indicted on Friday ALONG with Rover? Anyone got anything on this angle?
At some point I think it doesn’t even take a legal mind to realize that Fitzgerald extended a *huge* professional courtesy to Rove/Luskin by agreeing to look at Luskin’s “new” exculpatory evidence, and thereby delay indictment. When it turned out to be such obvious crap, mere human nature (assuming Fitz allows himself such a thing) would dictate that Fitz will now not only bring the pain, but maybe even bring it a little harder now.
Look for an obstruction charge to be added to the perjury and false statement charges.
what would America do if that happened?
What we have done in response to all of shrubs crimes; nothing.
Won’t Isikoff, Hume, Booby and the rest of the Beltwat Bleaters have egg on their face when the indictment does comes down?
Perhaps when that does occur Jane, you can point to this analysis as exhibit A of what’s wrong with DC journalism. Save this one-you’ll want it later and please rub Isikoff’s nose in it.
Well why doesn’t Fitz just nail Karl’s ass for the thing itself? The leak, and the law that punishes that? Perjury and obstruction of justice are serious charges, but he’s obviously the original leaker. Nail him for the whole enchillada.
Seems to me that that is what this investigation is really about. Or is this legal dance so kabuki that we’ll see those charges in 2009?
Excellent post Jane. I read the Isikoff story too and felt great uneasiness with it. The only specific fact that I knew was “obscured” by Isikoff was Rove’s 11th hour “memory” AFTER Cooper agreed to testify. Other than that, I was not sure why I was so uncomfortable with this story. Thanks a bunch. YOU refreshed MY memory and now I know why I couldn’t swallow Isikoff’s story.
Either Isikoff is incompetent, or he’s a lying sack of shit. (Or maybe both?)
What does Luskin and Rove hope to gain with all the spin? Do they think they can influence Fitzgerald’s decision or are they simply trying to put a good face on pending bad news that will be another in a long string of negatives for the administration?
It seems a little strange to be using a political strategy in a criminal investigation…the only voters are seated on a Grand Jury and they can’t consider all the fine little explanations offered by the apologists in the MSM. Could they be that out of touch with reality?
more observations here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
rove will ask for evdence to clear himself which the president will not allow due to “national security” and the man would walk
the fitz is making sure that type of defense won’t work.
pretty cool
me to me (#2):
bush resigns, probaby for health reasons also, and whoever is vice president pardons bush
what would America do if that happened?
Nothing could be done unless the House voted on impeachment articles first. The prevailing Constitutional view is that pardons arising because of an impeachment proceeding are NULL and VOID. That is one reason why the House Dems (hello? anybody there?) need to be speaking of an impeachment investigatgion now.
if the domcrats manage to overcome the electronic voting machines and voter fraud, cheney resigns immediately, bush pardons him and replaces him, then bush resigns and whoever is the vo parodns him
that’s my story and I’m stickkin to it
Jane, I’m a little confused by your post. In one place you say that “It turns out he testified twice in January of 2004.” and then later that “Before Karl appears before the grand jury for the first time in February 2004, Luskin hears from Viveca Novak that Cooper says Rove was his source.”
While I think that inconsistency doesn’t harm the narrative, it’s the sort of hook that others might seize upon.
OT: check out this line in the Reuters obit of Ken Galbraith:
“Galbraith remained a proponent of traditional Democratic ideals even as they came to appear shrill and out of step.
‘Consigning the least fortunate of our people to the neglect and despair that a purely individualist society prescribes … is not, I submit, a sound conservative strategy,’ he said in his 1986 book, ‘A View from the Stands.’”
Bill O’Reilly goes back to the wires. That’s a great example of “shrill and out of step,” eh?
Galbraith obit
Reuters ombudsman
CNN ombudsman
“Well why doesn’t Fitz just nail Karl’s ass for the thing itself? The leak, and the law that punishes that? Perjury and obstruction of justice are serious charges, but he’s obviously the original leaker. Nail him for the whole enchillada.
Seems to me that that is what this investigation is really about. Or is this legal dance so kabuki that we’ll see those charges in 2009? “
Because they would use greymail to get the case thrown out of court. That’s another reason Rove wasn’t afraid to lie. He and his team thought Fitz would indict the original crime and they could get the case tossed. You can see that in Libby’s defense team responses. All of a sudden Fitz switched the game on them and they are playing baseball instead of basketball. This article proved to me that Rove and Libby are coordinating. Gold Bars didn’t just spin here to Isikoff, Libby’s lawyers are in there too spinning away.
I wonder how Walton is going to feel when he reads this? I wonder if this is going to have any impact on whether he issues a gag order? It is obvious that Rove/Libby are going to try to use the media to affect this case. They get the court of opinion behind them, or at least 40% of Bush loyalists, it will make it easier for Bush to pardon them.
Man, our government sucks.
Just looks like one or all Comstock/Luskin/Rove/Isikoff are ‘begging the question’ so as to setup the inevitable ’swiftboating’ of Fitz and all other investigations when Fitz drops the bomb.
Frankly, I’m hopeful his GJ hands up a whole slew of indictments all at once…Cheney, Hadley, Card, Gonzo…the whole lot of ‘em. Conspiracy.
The story is written in the re-writes.
As the bits come out, we can only hope that Fitz has done his job well and doesn’t let any of these rats get away. And judging from his past performance, he does his job well.
there was a camera pan during colbert’s evisceration, er, performance that caught spikey mikey’s table — and, surprise!, he was not amused by the routine. lol.
I’m with lurker. Time to indict some people for the crime against “Mrs. Joseph Wilson” (a la Stephen Colbert).
I don’t believe for one second they didn’t know exactly what they were doing.
And….five (5) appearances before a grand jury? That’s not right, either. Fitz needs to get the job done now and quit being turned around by these liars.
Randy — the “testified twice in January” bit came from isikoff — not Jane. She was simply reporting what was in his article.
Stephen Colbert is a brave man. A courageous man. I honor him. Would that there was anyone remotely like him in the Washington press corps.
Dishonesty and injustice never sleep; thus, nor can the heroes sworn to defeat them.
Incidentally, the simple fact that Viveca Novak and Bob Luskin’s conversation concerned whether Rove had “a Cooper problem” suggests pretty strongly that the chat took place AFTER Cooper was subpoenaed (i.e., in May, just as Viveca initially remembered).
How could Rove have “a Cooper problem” unless there was a prospect of Cooper being forced to testify?
troll at 5
So is there anything new at all in Isikoff’s article? If not, what’s the excuse for printing it? I would swear that the last paragraph of his you quoted is practically word-for-word from an earlier article, but I can’t find it with a quick google, so I suppose it’s just painfully similar, not identical.
Dishonesty and injustice never sleep; thus, nor can the heroes sworn to defeat them.
P.S. I do, however, suspect that their poodles squeeze in a nap here and there.
To be clear, since numbers get changed, troll at 5 is Alex rockets. Can’t we ban this clown?
I would be very suprised if he indicts for the leak just now. The graymail implications are too great. And he doesn’t need to. He can get them for consrpiray to obstruct just with underlying perjury and possibly some destruction of evidence depending on how the computer forensics turned out.
If he indicts on the underlying crimes, the discovery problems will be huge and there could be spillover onto the Libby case. i love the Libby case, so tight, so focused, so impossible to get out of.
I expect to see something similar for old Rover. And maybe not just Rover.
Something tight, focused and inescapable
Great summation Jane. I suspect Fitz is fed up with having the Sahara desert thrown in his face and may indict Luskin and V. Novack as well round Fitzo de Mayo. Why he may not charge the underlying is still the infernal difficulty or proving it and also it would cut against Fitzers style which is thorough and by-the-book and ‘ Roll-em-up-from-the bottom’.
Long live Fitz!
Luskin’s got some chuzpah trying stunt’s like this on! Impressive…or just dumb probably.
The arrogance of these fascist’s is proven when you look at who else was featured in Newsweak recently. None other than Mussolini style blackshirt, Michael Ledeen. Hard to be further out on the lunar right than TIME but Newsweak manage somehow.
Speaking of fascist’s – the red fascist Hitchens still has a gig with Slate. Kerry never impressed me much but one thing he is reported to have said is how much he hates Leninist’s.
Kerry must have shot a lot of far better Red’s in ‘Nam than this scumbag Hitchen’s.
The National-Bolshevism party rolls on – real men go to Tehran!
Real crooks go to jail and real fascists get shot and real fascists get hung.
Thank’s Jane. Yr the best.
How long do you see the fallout raging?
I clocked G Gorden at around five days heading Googlenews. The Bunkers might want to stock up on weenies!
Who would make arrests in the White House? DC cops? Feds? Couldn’t Bush, as CIC and head of Gov’t,tell the officers to Cheney themselves.
What if Bushco decides NOT to leave in ‘08.Who is going to stop them and how?
Yep, the noose closes.
1. Rover’s entire hopes rode on reporters privilege…that the courts would never force Coop to testify. When that fell apart one could hear the screaming from Rover-land.
2. Cocktails with Viveka: I believe Luskin reported this chit chat IMMEDIATELY to Rover. But, the Luskin/Rove consensus remained “they got nuthin. You can’t get convicted on newsroom gossip.”
3. Hadley email: I also believe this to be a bit of a red herring. Once the courts ordered Coop to testify…Rover knew he was in deep doo-doo. Rover couldn’t very well skip on down to the GJ and say “gee, on second thought…blah blah blah”. Rover had to come up with an “EXCUSE”…SOMETHING he could hang his hat on as having “jogged” his memory somehow. So…out comes the Hadley email.
4. After the dam broke with Coop going to testify, the Luskin/Rove camp came up with TWO red herrings….the Hadley email, as well as this silly Viveka cocktail chat from months ago designed to try to cover Rover’s ass.
Ghostman
PS: I’ve always wondered about the cocktail chat, in terms of date. Didn’t either party pay with a credit card? Valet park? If either party is a regular…didn’t the bartender or waitress have a memory of date? Interesting.
Let’s do the frog march again!
graphicus:
5 times—when you’re as slippery a greased pig as Rove is, that seems not too excessive, but I totally agree Fitz let himself get spun, but that will hopefully just make the other shoe drop all the harder.
egregious:
what exactly is so outlandishly offensive about Alex Rocket’s post? “ROVE IS GOING DOWN” Using all caps?
I for one don’t get the troll accusation…
Funny, when I read Murray Waas’ recent article, I felt it was Luskin spin. Waas is pretty careful, and from his text I took away that Rove’s defense team was the source of “what Karl told the GJ and when”. I felt Waas had pretty well delineated that the story was coming from Rove’s people.
The gist of Waas article was that Rove’s defense would follow the lines of “all those silly journalists, running and printing unverified gossip as fact, how can you believe them”.
So, if Goldbars is running off to another writer to respond to the first article as you suggest, then I conclude he’s trying to generate a conversation with himself, with the new spin also directed, from a different angle, at the same point – “all those silly journalists, etc.”
Like when you were a kid, spinning the little carousel in the kiddie park. If you get someone on each side, pushing, it spins faster than if only one person pushes.
Given Rover was the MFIC of a White House whose admitting Gannon to the Press Room a day or so after he signed up was a pretty explicit statement of what that White House thinks of reporters, his defense strategy is not surprising.
I can’t help but think that the reason Luskin and Rove waited so long to tell the Viveca Novak story is that it fundamentally undercuts their supposed reason for not granting Cooper a personal waiver sooner. Rove, via Luskin, claimed that he wasn’t trying to obstruct Fitzgerald’s investigation, that he didn’t know he was the source Cooper was protecting.
But the whole Viveca episode totally undermines that claim. By his own words, Rove know claims that he knew all the way back in January 2004 that the word at TIME was that he was Cooper’s source. But in the ensuing year and a half he never picks up the phone to call Cooper and clarify this? Please. He knew Cooper was protecting him all along, and he was perfectly willing to let Cooper go to jail until Cooper took the initiative to seek a waiver.
from a lurker — not egregious, but the issue wasn’t the ALL CAPS text, but the content of the click thru. Some of our computer expert regulars have detected some…erm…problems when you click thru the link. And we try to be very careful about that for our readers.
Is the jury going to be able to sort thru all of this crap?
Jane,
While researching the ongoing move of US armed forces as “advisers” into Lebanon I came across this article – it’s dated but gives good historical background. I thought you or Pach might have a use for it as handy background research reference or even just a source of google search terms for a posting:
.
Geoffrey — the jury won’t have to sort through all this crap. They’ll only have to sort through the limited information presented to them. All this outside spin is designed to keep Rove in his job, keep the GOP donor base paying the legal bills for Libby (and hopefully soon for Rove), and to keep people confused. It’s about political impact — but the criminal aspect of things will be a much more limited presentation of evidence only dealing with the charges in the indictment and the information around it.
Christy I and quite a few others wish you’d just ban him. He’s a pest and infests blog after blog after blog. him, r2k, “melanie”, New York Bathrooms. All the same outfit.
And EEEEK I left you out of the list of people who might find that article handy. Blush …. swowwy.
Christy
Got it, well if that’s the case, major troll..
Personally I avoid commentor-supplied links unless they’re in URL form or I’ve seen the commentor before.
Ah ploughing through my results (God be thanked for clusty as a research tool it’s way better than google) I find this right web article on the DLC
Some questions for Reddhedd and others who have been prosecutors (or defense atttorneys). Fitz has been on this case (on&off) for over 2 years. He’s had Rove over 5 times. Then Fitz says he needs 10 more days. Why? Is Fitz seriously considering NOT indicting? Despite the spin, we all know that he’s got a solid case against Rover for both perjury and obstruction. Why not do that now (like with Libby), and bring the conspiracy, espionage, etc indictments later? Is he waiting for more evidence? What of such significance could show up within 10 days? Is your forecast that Fitz will indict Rove? Do you believe that Rove “turned”? But if so, why the 10-day game?
Question for RH, Jane, anyone:
When does Fitz subpoena the emails and documents containing various search terms incl. Cooper? That subpoena does go to Rove, right? Why don’t journalists ever ask Luskin while they have him on the phone why it is that he only goes through Rove’s emails from the time in question after Rove has already testified before the Grand Jury? Would Hadley have responded to the subpoena–does the email get missed twice, by both Rove and Hadley’s respective offices?
Also, Jane, this post is brilliant but then everything produced by FDL is brilliant!
OT, but important just the same:
Bush has had US Special Forces troops in Iran since at least July of 2004, trying to bait the Iranians into giving Bush a pretext to invade:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4180087.stm
morning all– SCOTUS just ruled in favor of Anna Nicole Smith.
Joe Biden wants to divy up Iraq into 3 parts.
Isikoff has now lost the tiny shred of credibility he started to regain with me. He was front and center in the effort to destroy Clinton and regurgitated the muck of Ken Starr and Lucianne Goldberg. Nice job Uncovering Isikoff, Jane.
Christy 24 – Thanks for the clarification to Randy 17; I do think the reference is confusing as written, though. Wouldn’t hurt to have a parenthetical (”not February, according to the article”) or something stuck in there. (I know this is Jane’s, not yours – just an fyi for her.)
Luskin’s got to be dizzy from all this spinning. I do hope it all comes back to bite his client on the ass.
Goeff: THIS CASE IS EASY, NOT HARD.
This case is a slam dunker. Double dunker. It’s a fall-down (easy). Here’s why:
You charge Roverer with lying. GET THIS: your evidence is Roverer’s testimony before the GJ.
That’s it. You just present 5 transcripts.
Roverer’s testimony:
1st testy: “I didn’t talk to Cooper….I dunno who those darn leakers are…”
2d: “I didn’t talk to Cooper about Plame. I still dunno who those darn leakers are…”
3d: (Is it here the worm turns, methinks not): “I don’t think I talked to Cooper…”
4th: “Oops, you know what, I guess I did out Plame to Cooper, but I forgot. And here’s an email I wrote, but it still doesn’t help my memory….”
5th: “Oh yeah, it was me who leaked to Cooper but I still can’t remember it. And I’m really sorry.”
So I ask you Geoff: would you acquit based on this? I mean, this case is that easy.
If Roverer actually testifies — he may have to given his GJ testimony — he can reiterate how busy he is, how sorry he is, blah blah blah…
The hardest thing about this case is the prosecutor laying his bed. Trying to come up with reasons beforehand to tell the rest of the office why the case is so hard….you know, laying his bed just so when he wins it won’t look so easy.
One more question…
I thought Fitz had to deal with this inane Viveca Novak story b/c if he ignored it and charged Rove; somehow Luskin would argue later that Fitz ignored crucial 11th hour information. Is that a correct notion?
Good grief…methinks these people are going to hang themselves on the details of the stories they keep embellishing (which is why the truth is so much simpler).
Luskin says he talked to Novak before the January 04 appearances. Not sure how this helped Rove, as it seems like checking the e-mail before Rove ever testified would have been the prudent thing to do. Instead, Luskin would have us believe that he sent Rove to the GJ with nothing more than his “I don’t remember†defense.
Novak says the conversation took place after the January GJ appearance. By the time she testifies, Cooper has also testified, and the Novak/Cooper story seems to hang together better than the Luskin/Rove story, which Luskin thinks he can fix by becoming a witness himself. Maybe he’s thinking that in the battle of “he said, she said†there will be enough confusion that the GJ will be unable to discern what the truth is and be unable to return any indictments. This seems like classic obstructive behavior on Luskin’s part, but what do I know?
It’s taken me awhile to get this posted, so apologies if others have already raised these things.
Rove’s defense may be the first to ever qualify for a RICO designation. That’s some serious smoke.
~
Correct analysis imo.
Anne: my guess, not he doesn’t care about Luskin’s spin but on the off chance that Cooper got it wrong. Wasn’t it at this time when when Bob Woodward also came forward and said: “Everyone in town knew this before Novakula?”
And who can forget Woody’s other greatest hit: “I told Pincus before he learned it anywhere else…”
I think Fitz was worried that he might be missing something, getting something wrong, so he went back and talked to Cooper. Did he talk to Pincus again too?
P.S. Can’t Woody be charged with obstruction if he just made this shit up? I’m just asking…
Anne @53
Spot on and worth the delay—you’ve got it in a nutshell.
If spinning was an olympic sport, you’d be hard pressed who to give the gold to, KR or Luskin.
A real match, made under a very large rock.
The real question is how Luskin can continue as Roverer’s attorney (even as incompetent as he is) when he is not clearly a witness?
Legal ethical rules require attorneys recuse themselves from cases where they are witnesses. Luskin actually testified before the GJ, unprecedented.
Does the Chief Idiot know the national anthem?
OT – Howie Kurtz will be taking questions at the WaPo discussion forum today at noon eastern. I submitted a question to him about the attempt by him and others in the media who are trying not to acknowledge the dead on Colbert critique of the Washington, DC establishment. I encourage others to submit questions/comments to him too.
Good morning all. Thanks for a fascinating discussion last night, sorry I wasn’t able to join. Interesting that it ended with such a negative comment.
I’m sorry to be OT, but just read an interesting article at NYT which others may have seen re: how liberals should look to history to address the international issue of nation-building and war. It’s written by Peter Beinart of the New Republic and makes a number of cogent points about the lack of a message from the liberal side and how that could be corrected, particularly win the areas of humility, the link between economic security at home and foreign policy and how conservatives have thus far, and wrongly, responded since the Cold War. I think this dovetails a bit with some of the discussion last night in terms of how liberals are often feeding at the same trough as conservatives around some of these issues and what needs to happen around changing that paradigm.
“Peter Beinart is editor at large of The New Republic. This essay is adapted from “The Good Fight: Why Liberals — and Only Liberals — Can Win the War on Terror and Make America Great Again,” which will be published in late May by HarperCollins.”
NYT Magazine article
again, sorry OT, but I think it’s worth it.
I don’t know…there are so many stories and so many ways to look at them that at this point, we’re as good as blind-folded and will have no way of knowing which one of us has correctly described the elephant we’re all touching until the blindfolds come off.
Putting aside the known ‘liars,’ it seems to me that VivNovak’s ‘truth’ is one of the biggest and most glaring falsehoods. Her ‘I don’t remember when I met with Luskin’ seems like her most bold faced attempt to save Rove. Because it is definitely the date of that meeting (were there more than one?) that proves most definitely how big Rove’s untruthiness ends up to be. [comment: I broke several grammatical rules in that last sentence but couldn’t figure out how to fix it. too early I guess]
Also, Markof Ireland, thanks for the DLC article. I gues we KNEW that already about the takeover, but to see it in print is confirmative. And that Clinton and Gore realized that publicly they had to run from the DLC talking points is a ‘duh’ moment. But they (the DLC) are still pulling the strings. Like to have an interview with Gore about this very important topic.
You’re welcome grandmaj that’s why i posted them – how’s cody doing?
Randy — thanks, I meant February. Corrected.
GrandmaJ – I agree that the date of Viveca’s meeting with Luskin is a critical data point. And it is looking like Viveca was misleading Fitz about it initially.
My question is, what is the likelihood that Fitz was able to pin down a date that is early enough to destroy Luskin’s excuse? Assuming that Viveca and Luskin met and discussed Cooper at a time prior to the point that Luskin is claiming, how could Fitz find this out? I think there are many ways:
1. Bartender
2. Credit Card Receipts
3. Security Camera Tapes
4. Other witnesses
5. Viveca’s notes
6. Witnesses to Viveca’s subsequent conversations about her meeting with Luskin, if any such conversations occured.
7. Anything else?
looseheadprop 31:
If he indicts on the underlying crimes, the discovery problems will be huge and there could be spillover onto the Libby case. i love the Libby case, so tight, so focused, so impossible to get out of.
I expect to see something similar for old Rover. And maybe not just Rover.
Something tight, focused and inescapable
I absolutely concur.
“Fitz has been on this case (on&off) for over 2 years. He’s had Rove over 5 times. Then Fitz says he needs 10 more days. Why?”
I don’t know for sure, but my instinct is that Fitzgerald came back to Chicago to take care of some business connected to one of his other investigations (possibly the one that’s got Fitz looking into some of Mayor Daley’s people) and that the ten days is purely a scheduling issue rather than something connected with the Plame case itself.
I may very well be wrong, but this would seem likely, given that Fitzgerald is currently juggling a few major investigations.
MarkFI — Cody is doing very well, considering. Thanks for asking. Saw both he and his sister yesterday. The daughter who just turned 16, had on a great deal of jewelry. I asked her about it — almost all of it was her mothers. She has her Mother’s bedspread on her bed, she has her personal phone book in her purse, and the last note written to her by her mother (”Don’t forget to wash that load of clothes”) folded in her pocket. So, they are remembering.
There are very worried about Cody redamaging his head, and there are many concerned looks from my son to his son. But he is 11 and wants to be ‘normal’ — Despite the slash of a surgery scare from one ear to the other.
But they are moving forward. My granddaughter has decided to put her energies this summer into advanced placement summerschool. Her mother was urging her to go — and she is. Good for her.
Sorry — you can tell what is on my mind 24/7. I am making myself sick, but time is my friend.
Isikoff if an inside man. A lying sack of shit.
Look at all of those inside clowns(Hat-tip to Colbert) at the Prez’s dinner the other night.
They are the poison in our national system. Inside gamers with nothing but contempt for the the workers and the people that keep them in wine and salad.
The game is coming to a close though. They are looking behind themselves as they runaway.
-GSD
How could Rove have “a Cooper problem†unless there was a prospect of Cooper being forced to testify?
Swopa 31: Well the White House had been subpoenaed about all contact with Cooper in January so I suppose they could have been referring to that, but I don’t believe that was public knowledge at the time. Your comment brings up an interesting question — one of the many that Viveca hasn’t addressed — what exactly was the context for the conversation?
BTW, I think you’re right, and further I think her “I don’t remember” thing was crap. She was working on assignment for a story in January 2004, she’d most certainly be taking careful notes at that point. One would assume.
Uh… Clem (#68)
“my instinct is that Fitzgerald came back to Chicago to take care of some business connected to one of his other investigations … and that the ten days is purely a scheduling issue.”
Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks for answering one of my questions.
Believe me grandmaj we all understand what comes first – the people you love. Thanks for the update. And time as you say is a geat friend here.
Oops – that surgery ’scare’ is supposed to be scar, but all of you knew that. I normally wouldn’t correct small typos, but accuracy is the coin of the kingdom here, as it should be.
Uh… Clem
Time is on Fitz’s side right now. The days leading up to a possible impeachment are prime time for folks to decide to cooperate.
Rove knows that if he is going to cut a deal, it is probably now or never. Why not let him think about that for a while?
Also, why not let everyone who could get ratted out by Rove think about it for a while? If they know that Rove might cooperate, they become highly incentivized to cut a deal with Fitz FIRST.
I’m sure there are other reasons as well, of course. Fitz just got 3+ hours of testimony from Rove. He doesn’t want to do anything until the transcript has been reviewed multiple times by multiple persons in his office, with all the ramifications and implications charted out. This takes time. And maybe the testimony raised the need for Fitz to call in a few witnesses to cover anything new that popped up.
It is also possible that Rove is already cooperating, and all of the leaks to Isikoff, etc. by Luskin are an effort to throw up a smoke screen, making it look like he is “in the clear”, so that no one else jumps in front of Rove in line for the “lets cut a deal with Fitz” game.
Oops, I meant possible “indictment” not “impeachment”. Freud again.
The warm fuzzy Rove indictment trifecta –
Purjury; Obstruction of Justice; and Destruction of Evidence.
Does anyone think this might have an effect on the 20% who weakly support the preznit?
Looseheadprop, I think your summation as to the likely state of affairs with regard to the possibility of indicting on the underlying crime makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Here’s what then pops into my non-lawyerly noggin… can indictments for the underlying crime be brought down the road AFTER the perjury and obstruction cases have played out?
In other words, since it would seem to not raise a double jeopardy problem (right? We’re talking about very different charges here after all) would it make sense for Fitz to use what comes out in the Libby case (and presumably the eventual Rove case as well) to cinch up the case for indictment for the underlying crime of outing a CIA operative?
Again… not a lawyer here. I’m likely missing something fundamental here. But it would seem that since the charges against Libby (and soon to be Rove) are that they obstructed an investigation, would that not tend to mean that a legitimate part of having charged them would be to try and get to the heart of the underlying crime that they tried to cover up, while still trying to nail them for the new crimes of perjury and obstruction?
xyz:
I like your first thougt better :-)
thought… geez!
OT
Uh oh– Jane and Christy– Mike McCurry has issued a loyalty day challenge over at HuffPo
>>>>>>
You can see in blog commentary lots of great huffing and puffing that will get you to exactly 38% of the electorate. I don’t see a lot of useful dialogue on how to get winning coalitions together that can win more than 50% in closely contested elections. As Juliet says, that is one reason we have gerrymandered safe districts and few contested races. It’s also why we have lots of feel-good rants on the web and not enough dialogue about how to win close elections. I take this as a sign that I am getting old, but also that some newcomers in politics will need to get knocked around and lose a few before they understand that winning politics is not as easy as they think.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..20116.html
The brutal part of this is that so many useful brains like Jane’s, Christy’s, and Mr. Fitzgerald’s have to spend so many hours chasing all of this I-am-at-a-loss-for-an-adjective information around, when the whole situation could have been resolved instantly if there were anyone in the administration with a shred of honesty or dignity. As the president said when the issue first came up, whoever in the administration was involved in the leak should come clean and leave the administration. This does not seem to be the advice that he gave in private, eh?
Since we have been clapping for Colbert for a few days now, I am reminded of a report he did back on the Daily Show.
Colbert: … nobody’s going to believe that stuff, Jon, it just doesn’t have the credibility anymore.
Stewart: Stephen, you’re saying the media doesn’t have the credibility anymore?
Colbert: No, Jon, the truth.
peace,
jim
Someone earlier asked why all the leaks to Isikoff etc. Aside from a political purpose, the leaks from Rove that attempt (albeit poorly) to show that he is holding a strong hand are also an effort to keep the the vow of omerta intact among anyone else who might sing or change their story.
If Rove looks like he is likely to indicted, then people will naturally infer that the likelihood he will cut a deal will increase. Then, other participants in the Valerie Plame scandal may want to get in front of Fitz first in order to get the best deal, because there is a huge drop off in return between the first in line and the second at Fitz’s “lets make a deal” table.
By leaking to the media that his case is strong, Rove keeps others who might implicate him further from emerging from the woodwork to cut a deal.
Uh Clem–(78)
The WH is sure to use the State Secrets ploy if Fits goes after the underlying crime, so he has to be careful to limit the indictments to charges that don’t require revealing classified material.
With luck, however, the trial(s) will reveal much about the motives and the operations of the WHIG group that planned both the war and the leak strategy.
New book by David Sirota — Hostile Takeover
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/5/1/105349/7075
There’s a lot of inane talk these days about “polarization,” “red and blue” America, and increased partisanship. It makes for a good storyline – but it hides a very simple truth: American politics is largely dominated by a very tightly-knit consensus that makes sure every policy debate ends with one or another outcome that benefits the Big Money interests that bankroll political campaigns.
As I argue in Hostile Takeover, my new book being released this week, there is an intricate system of lies, myths and half-truths being rammed down Americans’ throats that is designed to make us believe lawmakers are working in our best interests, when in fact they are working against us. These storylines have created the justification for the hostile takeover of our government – and they have marginalized the commonsense policies that most Americans support.
So, for instance, the raging debate over immigration has included almost no discussion of reforming our corporate-written trade policies like NAFTA – a pact that President Clinton joined with Republicans to ram down Americans throat, a pact that we were told would increase American wages and decrease illegal immigration by improving the Mexican economy; yet a pact that has resulted in stagnating wages for Americans, 19 million more Mexicans living in poverty and thus increased illegal immigration. But because this free trade orthodoxy has helped maximize corporate profits, even a discussion of reforming those trade policies is considered off limits by elites in Washington – even in an immigration debate where it is central, even when polls show Americans want our trade policies reformed.
A few things: 1) re the exact date of Vivnovka’s meeting with Luskin, can you doubt for a minute that Fitz didn’t have his versions of Briscoe and Green on things like this from the get? He probably knows not only the date they met but the drinks they ordered, where they went to boink afterwards, and whether it was good for either of them ;) … 2) I think Fitz may be working on the establishment of a conspiracy to cover up the crime so as to avoid the greymail and Exec privilege issues as I think lhp mentioned – remember in his press conference he said you bring charges you can prove and justice will be served even if all the guilty only go to jail for related crimes; 3) I can’t believe I’m throwing around terms like greymail!; and finally 4) he’s methodical and inexorable in his progress from investigation through trial, so while I can relate to sentiments like “let’s hurry the fuck up and indict them all for treason,” I think he’s more concerned with rigging up a noose that won’t slip off than just rushing over to the nearest tree with a bungee cord. My 2 cents. And Jane is a goddess. And I’m a slow typer so any and all of this may have been said more pithily and eloquently already.
Somewhat off topic, although important:
By way of Raw Story – what to do with two deciders?
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld…..tstory.jsp
ot, sorry
more cheney rubbish, he not only knows he’s the president, he isn’t afraid to put bush in his place and give h9m a time out
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld…..tstory.jsp
Cheney exempts his own office from reporting on classified material
BY MARK SILVA
Chicago Tribune
WASHINGTON – As the Bush administration has dramatically accelerated the classification of information as “top secret” or “confidential,” one office is refusing to report on its annual activity in classifying documents: the office of Vice President Dick Cheney.
A standing executive order, strengthened by President Bush in 2003, requires all agencies and “any other entity within the executive branch” to provide an annual accounting of their classification of documents. More than 80 agencies have collectively reported to the National Archives that they made 15.6 million decisions in 2004 to classify information, nearly double the number in 2001, but Cheney continues to insist he is exempt.
Explaining why the vice president has withheld even a tally of his office’s secrecy when such offices as the National Security Council routinely report theirs, a spokeswoman said Cheney is “not under any duty” to provide it.
oops, I’m a post late, sorry
“By leaking to the media that his case is strong, Rove keeps others who might implicate him further from emerging from the woodwork to cut a deal.”
Very true indeed… as long as the media spin outweighs the DC rumor mill and all the backroom whispers and whatnot, of course. This would probably suggest an explanation as to why Rove may have gone out of his way to appear positive and “jolly” at the weenie-fest last week after his GJ appearance. Gotta keep the rumor mill spun in addition to the general media, after all.
Oops, i gotta proofread. I meant to say Luskin is “now” clearly a witness, not “not a witness”.
OT.
Does this mean that we are training them over there so that they can fight over here?
Chicago gang signs showing up in Iraq. Fear that gang members are joining the military to get urban training to bring back to the states.
Heckuva job.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/l…..03636.html
-GSD
i/> I know I closed my tag but it looks like I caused italic hell…sorry, I just tried to close it again to no avail
New thread.
try again
test
Uh… Clem.
Agreed. This is classic Game Theory. The fact that Rove is spinning so agressively is a sign that he is battling strong contervailing forces in the rumor mill
“The WH is sure to use the State Secrets ploy if Fits goes after the underlying crime, so he has to be careful to limit the indictments to charges that don’t require revealing classified material.
With luck, however, the trial(s) will reveal much about the motives and the operations of the WHIG group that planned both the war and the leak strategy.”
Also, I have to wonder if time might work to Fitzgerald’s advantage on this one. If he holds off on asking for indictments on the underlying crime until after the obstruction cases, not only does he very likely end up with more evidence to lock down his underlying case, but there’s also the dark horse possibility that the Republicans may lose the House in November… which would make it a lot more difficult for Bush to stonewall the investigation using the “State Secrets” ploy. If he’s got a Democrat-controlled House breathing down his neck looking at possible impeachment, I think all bets are off as to how far he can go to cover up something like the Plame case.
Maybe?
me to me — I fixed it. Ahhhh, the power of the edit button. *g*
All the Luskin chaff is just to delay the process through confusion, and create enough reasonable doubt (in the minds of Bush supporters) to keep legal defense $ rolling in.
Rove probably wants to keep his job at the WH for as long as possible, but he is not in any real danger of going to prison because a pardon will be tendered before that happens. So why would he plea bargain? Unless they’ve decided to throw Cheney overboard, it seems like Libby and Rove will be the good soldiers.
Some general thoughts before I’m done with my coffee:
1. Fitz’s office doesn’t seem to leak. Thus, ANYTHING you read about this story is likely coming from the soon-to-be defense team.
2. When you have to have your sleazebag lawyer testify in your defense, you’re in way over your head. That’s worse that having your grandmother testify for you. My bet is that there was a slim hope that Fitz would let the matter drop if he wasn’t finished when the original grand jury expired. Bad move. I still think that Luskin himself is in serious danger of being indicted.
3. Going back to number (1) above, keep in mind that Rove’s five versions of what happened are coming from the Rove camp. The reality of the situation may be quite a bit worse for Rove.
4. Where’d the Hadley e-mail come from? Did Rove really just “find” it on his own, or did Rove suspect that Fitz had the e-mail already? He’s needs two different bullshit stories for this one. (1) Why didn’t he turn over the e-mail to being with? (2) Why did he turn it over when he did?
5. For those who are worried that nothing seems to be happening right now, don’t sweat it. Fitz is slow and methodical. He won’t do anything until the grand jury transcript has been typed out. I think the 5th of May is WAY too early. I say late May at the absolute earliest.
I’m confused by Luskin’s behavior and explanations. I don’t understand why he’s telling Viveca Novak that Rove doesn’t have a Cooper problem in January, 2004, since Cooper hasn’t yet been subpoenaed to testify at the grand jury. Since he raised the subject with her, I suspect that he did so deliberately. If I’m right, Luskin probably is right about the date, unless he’s decided to risk his bar card, an indictment charging him with obstruction of justice, and an unflattering change of employment to jailhouse lawyer.
It seems to me that Rove is better off claiming that the meeting took place after, or just before Cooper was served with a grand jury subpoena, which I believe occurred in May, 2004, although various media subpoenas had been served during the previous two months. If Luskin found out that Rove had a Cooper problem after Rove testified in February, Rove wouldn’t be in the indefensible position of arguing that he had no reason to conceal from the grand jury his conversation with Cooper since he knew that Cooper would testify about it. Claiming that he still doesn’t recall the conversation, but acknowledges that it must have happened doesn’t pass the straight-face test. Given Fitzgerald’s reputation for thorough preparation, he probably asked Rove about Cooper during Rove’s February appearance and Rove must have denied it, or stated that he couldn’t recall. Again, if Luskin is right about the date, Rove’s “Sorry, but I can’t recall speaking with Cooper,” story, makes no sense because Luskin would have clued him in about his “Cooper problem”. Since Rove knew that he had provided false information to the FBI in September, why wouldn’t he attempt to clear-up his “mistaken” statement to the FBI and avoid being indicted for giving a false statement to the FBI? Why wouldn’t he want to avoid a possible perjury charge for lying to the grand jury in February? Well, the answer is clear. Rove bet the house on Cooper keeping his mouth shut, a dum-dum move because the outcome of Cooper’s reporter’s-privilege claim was predictable, if not certain. A reporter has no privilege to refuse to identify and answer questions about a source in federal court, if a grand jury is investigating a crime and wants the information. There are potential whistleblower protections, but Rove definitely wasn’t a whistleblower. Given the vanishingly small chance that Cooper’s legal argument would prevail, or that Cooper still would refuse to testify and would willingly serve time for contempt, Rove’s decision, not to set the record straight during his February grand jury appearance, appears worthy of the following characterization, “The biggest longshot Louie at Hialeah wouldn’t put a fin on his [Rove’s] fate right now.”
One thing about Luskin is for certain. He talks too much. By chatting-up Viveca Novak without a third person present, Novak placed himself at risk for having to testify about the meeting, if Novak’s recollection differed about anything important. Well, that’s what happened and Rove had to waive attorney-client privilege regarding that specific subject matter, or Luskin would have been forced to withdraw. Now that Luskin cleared-up Novak’s “faulty recollection,” regarding when they met, Rove’s stuck trying to explain why he didn’t tell the grand jury in February about his conversation with Cooper. Maybe Luskin’s strategy is to build-in an ineffective assistance of counsel claim for Rove.
Having said all that, I’m inclined to believe that Rove is cooperating at this point and willing to continue to testify about stuff like the missing 250 email messages deleted (gone but not forgotten) in the Office of the Vice President. I bet all of us would have mighty fine time reviewing and commenting on them. Genuine party material, I think. Rove flipped and he’s singing like a bird hoping he gets off easy for bringing down the house.
Luskin’s gonna be a witness against his own client. Can’t believe he’s still on the case. Hope he’s covered his ass real well b/c he’s in some ethical hot h20.
Here’s my unified theory of how Luskin is attempting to thread a very narrow needle with his story about Viveca Novak. Luskin says the conversation with VNovak happened in January 2004 (or even as early as October 2003, according to Newsweek, which would make it as early as Rove’s initial contacts with FBI investigators). This enables Luskin to argue that Rove would have been crazy to try to hide his knowledge of his July 11 2003 conversation with Cooper when he testified in February 2004, thus showing that Rove testified in good faith to no recollection of contact with journalists regarding Plame other than with Bob Novak.
However, Luskin also has to explain the fact that Team Rove only found and handed over the Rove-Hadley email documenting Rove’s conversation with Cooper in October 2004, just as it looked like Cooper himself was going to testify. On October 7 2004 Judge Hogan denied Cooper’s motion to quash the new subpoena he had received from Fitzgerald on September 13 2004. Cooper got this subpoena – and this is key to my theory – only after he had completed his testimony in August concerning his contact with Libby, when Fitzgerald discovered, to his surprise, that Cooper had a source earlier than Libby.
So the question is, if Luskin is claiming that VNovak alerting him to the buzz at TIME that Rove was a source for Cooper played a role in prompting the search for and discovery of the Rove-Hadley email, why didn’t that search and discovery happen immediately after Luskin’s conversation with VNovak in early 2004?
My guess is that Luskin is arguing that Rove was confident in February 2004 that he was not a source for Cooper. But when the news hit in September 2004 that Cooper had been resubpoenaed, Luskin and Rove suddenly thought back to what VNovak had said and had their confidence in Rove’s recollection shaken, and said to themselves, “We better check thoroughly through the records to see if we can find any evidence of a Rove-Cooper contact on Plame or Wilson or what have you.” (Key to this theory is the claim that between the news coverage and the available public court records, Rove and Luskin would have known enough about Cooper’s new subpoena to react this way.) This would explain why the search for the email and its discovery did not happen until some time in the month between the middle of September and the middle of October, when Rove went back to the grand jury.
The main problem with this theory is that it really is threading a narrow needle on the question of what motivated Team Rove to do a search through the records: it had to do with what was happening with Cooper, but wasn’t motivated by fear of Cooper testifying. Cooper’s new subpoena simply served to make VNovak’s alert more vivid, and it was that alert that was the real cause of the search for records, the finding of the email, and Rove changing his testimony in October 2004.
The question is whether that is a fatal problem for my theory, or for Rove, who’s got nothing better.
knuckledragger(#35):
is that the one that they do to the tune of “do the hokey pokey”?
Could “spinning” by KR/Luskin/Libby/BushCo, etal. to the public via the media be considered as evidence of attempting to obstruct justice or
is it only considered obstruction of justice if you spin under oath to investigators, prosecutors, and the GJ? Isn’t the GJ composed of the “public”? If a leak is a lie, then it isn’t a leak, it’s a lie. It appears that Fitz is giving them all a long chain and watching them weave their web of leaks or lies which will ultimately confuse them and trip them all up with contradicting testimony. The only memory problem any of these guys/gals (WHIG and others) have is who said what, when, and how; and the more that is spun, the more confused they will get in keeping their stories coordinated. Fitz is not confused by any of this, and I don’t believe the GJ is either.
jim preston (#82):
Colbert: “No, Jon, the truth.”
Brilliant! Absolutely BRILLIANT! You read those lines and you can hear his voice, see his expression, everything.
Colbert is our very own Jonathan Swift.
God, he almost makes up for the loss of Hunter Thompson………
I know I’m late to the party, but here’s my (latest) theory:
I caught a snippet of a PBS broadcast about Watergate yesterday with Jeb Magruder reminiscing about about his potential perjury indictments (”5 years for each count and I reading the transcript of my testimony, and let’s see, there’s 1, 2, 3, 40, 80 lies”) and I was reminded of Rove’s situation.
Rove’s five appearances in front of the GJ gives Fitz a lot of perjury counts to choose from. I think though, that it is entirely possible the Fitz dumps the whole thing in Rove’s lap-perjury, obstruction, the leak, conspiracy, treason. Fitz won’t have to go after Cheney-Rove will do it for him and the cards will fall where they will.
And Shrub? Well, with the Rove indictment and a Democratic takeover of Congress in ‘06, articles of impeachment become inevitable. Even the remaining Repubs in office will want to get rid of W, if they want to have a chance at the WH in ‘08.
My sense after reading Jane’s beautiful summary is that there is something much more serious happening in Fitz’s office. The horseshit coming from Rove and Administration is getting so deep there has GOT to be a pony in there for Fitzgerald.
“Uh….Clem”
i’m not a martial arts film fan or anything like that but,
Fitzgerald is like Bruce Lee surrounded by, not one gang, but two.
it’s all in slo mo, very slo mo, and we see the rib-kick or the ear-slap coming, but it takes for-eeeeeeeeeeh-ver for them to connect.
we’ve got time to savor the popcorn, folks!
“So why does Rove refuse to grant a waiver so long to someone he doesn’t remember talking with? Hmmm, good question. Don’t hold your breath waiting for anyone to ask it.”
How the heck can they even ATTEMPT to use this line of logic and in the next breath tell us that Novak warned Luskin about Rove being Cooper’s source? I sincerely hope and pray that the Grand Jury have all been equipped with boots to wade through all of the …. garbage.
Uh Clem at 78 said:
“Here’s what then pops into my non-lawyerly noggin… can indictments for the underlying crime be brought down the road AFTER the perjury and obstruction cases have played out?
In other words, since it would seem to not raise a double jeopardy problem (right? We’re talking about very different charges here after all) would it make sense for Fitz to use what comes out in the Libby case (and presumably the eventual Rove case as well) to cinch up the case for indictment for the underlying crime of outing a CIA operative?”
Technically it is not rue Double Jeopardy because they are different crime. However, ther is a strong tradition and IIRC a DOJ policy in favor of indicting all crimes arising out of a particular set of circumstances all in one indictment.
The exceptio to that is if the government did not know about a given crime until later.
In this case Judge Hogan, who supervised the Grand Jury subpeona litigations with Miller and Cooper, has indicated that the government/prosecution knows very well what crimes have been committed.
There are two possibilites that present themselves to me.
1)Only indict graymailproof crimes so that the WH cannot shitcan the case.
2) Sealed indictments, but that only buys you a little bit of time (little bit being a relative term when compared to the geological years in which this case is measured.)
Someone else asked why Fitz might need ten days. Assuming that the 10 day rumor is true there are lots things that might be taking up that time.
1) As someone pointed out the big man has another full time job. Has anybody looked at the dates on the Conrad Black case? Are there any milestones coming up in that? Plus a little while ago it looked like the Chicago office was closing in on Mayor Daley. If it is indictment writing time in that case, or if there are search warrant applications to do, there is always a huge crush of work for upper management at those times.
2)the court reporter. unless you order “expidited copy” (3-4 days) at extra cost or “daily copy” at extra extra cost; it usually takes a least a week to get the transcripts back from the court reporter. Then you have to send them to the witness to review for errata and signature.
If you intend to use anything from the most recent transcript, there’s your ten days.
Sorry it’s not more exciting.
Time warp. Commenting before reading all the comments…
I thought the Isikoff article was pretty reasonable. Yeah, it’s only part of a complex story. But I didn’t think it was exceptionally biased for a couple reasons:
1) Isikoff was VERY clear about who his sources were–ROVE’s team. I appreciate that he made that plain.
2) Isikoff noted that Fitz is no slouch, is a straight shooter, and probably is still going after Rove–for good reasons (like maybe Rove was counting on Cooper’s silence…and what’s this about V Novak “taking a buy out” from time? hmmm….). Isikoff didn’t lay out any hints that there is no credible case against Rove; i.e. he isn’t in bed with Luskin.
I rely on FDL to keep updated on the Plame story, but I disagree that the Isikoff story is bad…kinda liked it ;-)
Jane,
Great post. I think this may be an error.
Rove testified October 15, 2004 and in mid October 2005. Cooper was held in comtempt on 10/13/04.
Cooper’s notes at TIME weren’t in play until they announced on 6/30/05 that they would hand over Cooper’s notes.
Anonymous Liberal has a very interesting point regarding the Cooper waiver. At some point I believe (unless I am totally confusing this with Miller) Fitz started telling Cooper that we know who your source is and he has signed a waiver. I have to look around at see if there was some point in time when Fitz seemed sure he knew Cooper’s source.
Jeff probably has the Rove version right here, but the eye of the needle is a little smaller. Cooper’s motion wasn’t denied on Oct 7, 2004, Miller’s was. The ruling on Cooper was on Oct. 13, 2004
One other thought (after reading all these comments):
I think it’s possible that the underlying crime might never be charged–because of the probability that “national security” will prevent the release of documents needed for the defense; however, it is important that during the Libby indictment press conference, Fitzgerald answered a question with this:
“I think I want to say one more thing, which is when you do a criminal case, if you find a violation, it doesn’t really, in the end, matter what statute you use IF YOU VINDICATE THE (public) INTEREST…convicting (Libby) of obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements…will vindicate the interest of the public in MAKING SURE HE’S HELD ACCOUNTABLE.”
I like that. I like Fitzgerald. A good dose of accountability, however it is done, is what we need.
I agree with clbrune in #113. Saying that Rover seemed “Jolly” and then judiciously avoiding the implication that he may be just “whistling past the graveyard” doesn’t reflect too badly on him. He probably did err on the side of protecting the flow of cocktail weenies but it didn’t seem over the top “Rove is teh roxorz!!1!!one!” to me. Don’t let’s judge what can be fairly construed as “nearly” impartial reporting as obviously partisan. That weakens the argument when it should be most potent. But I could be wrong (My wife must’ve pulled that string in the back of my neck).
“Technically it is not rue Double Jeopardy because they are different crime. However, ther is a strong tradition and IIRC a DOJ policy in favor of indicting all crimes arising out of a particular set of circumstances all in one indictment.”
This is a very good point to consider, and that’s basically why I didn’t immediately assume that it was possible to indict later because of the separate nature of the charges.
However, even if it’s hard and fast DOJ policy to indict all possible crimes at once, does it not seem that in this case there might be some leeway involved? Fitzgerald even said last Fall when he got the indictments on Libby that the only reason why the indictment wasn’t for the underlying crime was that Libby (and, we must assume, others) lied and otherwise acted in such a way to stymie investigation into the underlying crime.
It seems to me that unless sentencing for obstruction of justice in a case like this includes the maximum sentence that could have been meted out for the underlying crime, it is actually often in the subject/target’s best interest to get nailed for obstruction rather than risk a harsher sentence for the underlying crime.
UNLESS the underlying crime can still be brought back out later, after the obstruction case is done, assuming that the prosecution can get closer to the facts of the original investigation during the course of the obstruction trial.
As always, I’m looking at this as an outsider. But it seems to me as though an obstruction indictment could very easily be seen as having “beat the rap” if the underlying crime was serious enough to have netted the defendant a harsher, longer sentence.
Just to clarify the timeline a little more, remember that there were two rounds of subpoenas issued to Matthew Cooper. Cooper’s May 21, 2004 subpoena led to his August 23, 2004 deposition testimony about his contact(s) with Scooter Libby. Then Fitzgerald and the grand jury followed up with a second round of subpoenas to Cooper on September 13, 2004, which led to Cooper being held in contempt on October 13, 2004 and, eventually, to his July 13, 2005 testimony about his contact(s) with Karl Rove. Here are some excerpts from court documents which convey some more context:
First, from:
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/brief……resp.html
“On May 21, 2004, a grand jury subpoena was issued to Matthew Cooper seeking testimony and documents related to articles published on July 17, 2003 and July 21, 2003 to which he had contributed….Cooper refused to comply with the subpoena, even after the Special Counsel offered to narrow its scope to cover only conversations between Cooper and a specific individual identified by the Special Counsel…On June 3, 2004, Cooper moved to quash the subpoena….On July 6, 2004, the district court denied Cooper’s motion and, on July 20, 2004, it issued a written opinion and order….After being held in contempt, and after filing notices of appeal, Cooper and Time agreed to comply with the subpoenas, as limited by the Special Counsel….Cooper indicated that his rationale for agreeing to provide testimony and documents pursuant to this agreement was the fact that the source had stated that he had no objection.
On September 13, 2004, the grand jury issued a second set of subpoenas to Cooper and Time seeking testimony and documents relating to ‘conversations between Matthew Cooper and official source(s) prior to July 14, 2003….’Cooper and Time moved to quash these subpoenas and, on October 7, 2004, after briefing and a hearing, the district court denied their motions….On October 13, 2004, after a hearing, the district court held Cooper and Time in civil contempt of court based on their refusal to comply with the subpoenas.”
And from his November 10, 2004 Opinion, here…:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=…..ient=opera
…Chief Judge Hogan says in part:
“On August 9, 2004, the Court held Mr. Cooper and Time in contempt of court for refusing to comply with its rulings regarding the subpoenas. Shortly thereafter, Cooper agreed to sit for deposition and Time agreed to produce certain documents. That deposition took place on August 23, 2004….The fact that Special Counsel did not exhaust all relevant subject matter during Mr. Cooper’s first deposition shows that Mr. Fitzgerald was proceeding in the investigation with great deference to Cooper’s status as a member of the press.”
P.S. I stand corrected on my comment #199 a number of threads back, on one point, I notice from Jane’s post here. Karl Rove testified in October, 2004 on the 15th. It was in October, 2005 that Rove testified on the 14th. Thus, Rove’s third grand jury appearance occurred October 15, 2004, exactly eight days [not seven as I’d implied] after the district court denied Cooper’s motion to quash his second set of subpoenas on October 7, 2004. [Denied for basically the same reasons that the court used to earlier deny Cooper’s motion to quash his first set of subpoenas on July 6, 2004 (following up with a July 20, 2004 opinion and order).]
2 me to me says:
May 1st, 2006 at 5:27 am
ok, got that out of the way, now a prediction;
cheney resigns due to “health reasonsâ€, bush pardons him and appoints mccain or his brother as vp
bush resigns, probaby for health reasons also, and whoever is vice president pardons bush
what would America do if that happened?
I think this scenario could only happen under one circumstance and only one time – the repubs see that the Fall elections are going to swamp them so badly out of Congress that they can’t even Diebold the elections. Once they realize this reality, if it should happen, the call will go out – “abandon ship, every man for himself”. Remember, to get a new VP installed, Congress must approve the new VP. So the repubs will have to put their new man into the VP slot before losing the Congress in Nov. If they conclude that they have to replace the VP once, when Cheney resigns, and then a second time, when Bush resigns, chaos will the the order of the day in DC. And the Dems will be assured of a complete victory in Nov. Course they will inherit smoldering ruins in DC, but that’s another subject…..I think we will have a true Constitutional Crisis on our hands. And the thought of this Crisis being in the hands of Biden, Lieberman, etc. is rather unsettling. But, again, another subject for another day…..
13 Daniel DiRito says:
May 1st, 2006 at 6:09 am
What does Luskin and Rove hope to gain with all the spin? Do they think they can influence Fitzgerald’s decision or are they simply trying to put a good face on pending bad news that will be another in a long string of negatives for the administration?
Apparantly they want to delay the inevitable and pray for a strategic lightening bolt. It’s that prayer thing, ya know!
25 arbogast says:
May 1st, 2006 at 6:25 am
Stephen Colbert is a brave man. A courageous man. I honor him. Would that there was anyone remotely like him in the Washington press corps.
Steps into the snakepit and insults the snakes! CAJONES!!!!!
polly – As I recognize thanks to pow wow’s great work here, Cooper’s motion to quash his new subpoena was actually denied on October 7; what happened on October 13 is that he was held in contempt. Two distinct, though obviously related, events. (Part of what is confusing is that it appears the judge didn’t issue his opinion explaining his decision to deny Cooper’s motion until November 10.)
pow wow – Your timelines have been super-helpful. The only thing I would take issue with is the idea that Hogan didn’t add anything in his denial of Cooper’s motion on the second round of subpoenas. The thing he added about the unanticipated shift in Fitzgerald’s investigation justifying the new subpoenas is probably further evidence that Fitzgerald was surprised and the investigation significantly affected by his discovery, thanks to Cooper’s original testimony, that Libby was not Cooper’s original source. Whether that really made Fitzgerald suspect that Libby was motivated to that particular untruth by a coordinated effort to cover-up Rove’s talk with Cooper, among other things, is another question, though it’s what I suspect at this point.
77 ck says:
May 1st, 2006 at 8:22 am
The warm fuzzy Rove indictment trifecta –
Purjury; Obstruction of Justice; and Destruction of Evidence.
Does anyone think this might have an effect on the 20% who weakly support the preznit?
Nope – no effect whatsoever.
Jeff -
My pleasure. And thank you for sharing your careful analysis and perceptive insights about the Libby trial and the ongoing leak investigation with all of us.
I concur with your thoughts in #122 regarding the ‘unanticipated shift’ in the investigation as it concerned Cooper. That 8/23/04 Cooper deposition quite clearly resulted in a necessary new fork in the road of the investigation for the Fitzgerald team.
RE: 116 and part of your post:
“However, even if it’s hard and fast DOJ policy to indict all possible crimes at once, does it not seem that in this case there might be some leeway involved? Fitzgerald even said last Fall when he got the indictments on Libby that the only reason why the indictment wasn’t for the underlying crime was that Libby (and, we must assume, others) lied and otherwise acted in such a way to stymie investigation into the underlying crime.”
************************
If Fitzgerald didn’t have sufficient evidence to convince the grand jury to indict anyone for deliberately outing Plame knowing that she was an undercover CIA operative, he still should be able to prosecute some, or all of the defendants now, or about to be charged with false statements, perjury, obstruction of justice, etc., for committing the more serious crime crime because (1) all of the King’s soldiers and all of his men lied, and (2) he (Fitz) couldn’t identify the people who committed the more serious offense until some, or all of those defendants cooperated in the investigation and prosecution of others.
Assuming that Rove hasn’t cut a deal, he’s going to be indicted soon because Fitzgerald has him cold on a false statement(s) to the FBI in September, 2003, and perjury when he testified at the grand jury in February, 2004. Others are likely to be charged, possibly Hadley who was in on the whole thing, given Rove’s email updating Hadley on his conversation with Cooper and his effort to get out the word on Plame, “but don’t get too far in front.” Rove’s remark in the message about telling Cooper that he’d heard the information from a journalist was Rove smirking about their plan to start a rumor by leaking information to reporters, inviting them to spread it around, but warning them not to write a story, and then confirm the rumor when reporters call for verification by saying that they heard the same rumor from another reporter. Wink, wink, do ya think?
Fitz ain’t fooled, yuh durn tootin.
Then there’s the matter of the 250 emails that the reincarnated soul of Rosemary Woods deleted in the Office of the Vice President. Rather a treasure trove of material for Fitz to investigate and set traps for the unwarry.
I expect a few more people to be indicted with additional indictments down the road as Fitz puts together all of the pieces of the puzzle.
Everyone shouldn’t forget that John Hannah and David Wurmser know the whole story and they worked out cooperation deals with Fitzgerald a long time ago. Hannah is a neocon who pled guilty to passing classified information to Israeli agents and was sentenced to 12 years. Wurmser, apparently decided to cooperate with Fitz after learning that he was a target of the grand jury investigation.
Pray that Rove keeps his powder wet and his bullets dry, shaken, not stirred.
Just before Fitzgerald indicted Libby last fall, he met with Luskin and told him that he was considering indicting Rove, according to a source close to Rove who declined to be identified discussing sensitive matters.
Anybody have an idea who this “source close to Rove who declined to be identified discussing sensitive matters” could be? Luskin? Comstock? Rove? The voices inside Isikoff’s skull?
My ‘Dear Elisabeth Bumiller’ (WaPo) email -
_____
So, if a Steven Colbert “falls flat” in a forest of tux’d & gowned mainstream media suckups and no one subsequently hears about it, did it really happen?
I guess people like you gotta assiduously safeguard your precious DC dinner party “access,” ‘eh?
Cheers -
BobbyG
BobbyG –
Am arriving late, without time to respond to the thread itself (which is MOST excellent, per usual), but just want to say I love your “Bumiller” email. It inspires me to send similarly themed missives.
Mrs. K8 -
Thanks. Her lame attempt to bury the story is neutered ayway by Froomkin’s excellent recounting today.
LOL!
Pow wow — thanks for the great work, I’ll work it up into a post.
Jeff and pow wow,
Thanks for the information about the 10/7/04 decision against Cooper, I have read the 11/04 memorandum, a revealing document BTW, and didn’t notice the significance of the Oct 7 decision regarding Cooper.
Here is my question on this.. Would Rove have known about the 10/7/04 decision? I don’t believe it was reported at that time, and the memorandum wasn’t out until November 2004. The decision on 10/7/04 against Miller didn’t mention Cooper and the reporting on 10/8/04 didn’t mention Cooper. That Cooper was held in contempt was reported in this 10/14/04 AP article.
Ignore me. Trying to do learn tags.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01878.html
Ok. Now with the href stuff I hope.