Murray Waas has a new article up at the National Journal that appears to clear much of the murkiness up about what Rove testified to in his fifth appearance before the grand jury. It seems that in the Shuster/VandeHei Steel Cage Death Match, VandeHei might be the winner. But I for one am having an awfully difficult time putting together a chronology of events based on this account, and if this is all Rover’s got, it’s looking like Orange Jumpsuit Time.
It also looks like it’s going to turn into Rove versus Cooper:
In several hours of testimony, Rove was again asked how he learned three years ago that Plame worked for the CIA, and the circumstances of how he relayed that information to Cooper, according to people familiar with his testimony.
Rove also testified to the grand jury that when he told Cooper that Plame worked at the agency, he was only passing along unverified gossip.
In contrast, Cooper has testified that Rove told him in a phone conversation on July 11, 2003, that Plame worked for the CIA and played a role in having the agency select her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, to make a fact-finding trip to Niger in 2002.
Cooper has also testified that Rove, as well as a second source — I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then-chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney — portrayed the information about Plame as accurate and authoritative. Cooper has testified that based on his conversations with Rove and Libby, he felt confident enough about the information to identify Plame as a CIA officer in a July 17 Time story.
As I mentioned last night, it appears that Libby initially testified that he was the first one to tell Cooper about Plame (when in fact Rove spoke with Cooper on July 11, 2003 then Libby confirmed on July 12) and it’s quite possible Libby was covering for Rove in some sort of coordinated story.
Rove and his attorney, Robert Luskin, have also argued that it would have been foolhardy for Rove to lie, knowing that Cooper might someday testify against him, and that other evidence might surface showing that the two had talked about Plame.
Rove’s initial lies to the FBI came in October 2003 when John Ashcroft was still in charge of the case as Attorney General, receiving daily briefings. Ashcroft had previously hired Rove to work on his campaigns and had paid him the sum of $746,000. Cooper was not subpoenaed until January of 2004 when Fitzgerald was appointed as Special Counsel by James Comey after Ashcroft recused himself. This makes no sense. [Note: As Anonymous Liberal points out in the comments, the White House was subpoenaed about all contact with Cooper in January of 2004; Cooper himself was not subpoenaed until May 21, 2004 -- JH.]
Fordham University law school professor Dan Richman, a former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York, said that Fitzgerald’s decision to summon Rove before the grand jury repeatedly "reflects the importance that prosecutors-and ultimately juries-place on motive in [potential] perjury or obstruction cases."
Such cases are typically difficult to bring, Richman said, because "in many instances you almost have to literally take the jury inside a defendant’s head… to demonstrate their intent."
I can see Fitzgerald wanting to give the grand jury a look at Rove. As Christy said this morning, it would probably become quickly apparent what an inveterate ratfucker he is.
Then we come to the meat of the matter:
More recently, Luskin provided evidence to prosecutors about his own contacts with another Time reporter, Viveca Novak, in an attempt to show that Rove has testified as honestly as he could to the federal grand jury.
Luskin told prosecutors that Novak told him prior to Rove’s first grand jury appearance that she had heard from colleagues at Time that Rove was one of the sources for Cooper’s story about Plame. Luskin in turn said that he told Rove about this, but Rove still did not disclose to the grand jury that he had ever spoken to Cooper about Plame.
On Wednesday, Rove reportedly testified to the federal grand jury that earlier he had no reason to hide that he had spoken to Cooper, if indeed he recalled the conversation, because he already knew from Luskin that Novak and others at Time were saying they had been told that Rove had been a source for Cooper. Another reason, Rove said, is that he knew Cooper might himself one day testify in the case. (my emphasis)
This makes even less sense. As Paul Lukasiak noted the other day, if Rove was getting ready to testify before the grand jury in February ’04 and he heard from own his lawyer that the recently subpoenaed Matt Cooper considered Rove to be his source, the logical thing to do would be to pick up the phone, call Cooper and say "WTF?"
It wouldn’t, of course, if you were counting on Cooper to remain silent in the situation, something he would have to do if you wouldn’t grant him a confidentiality waiver. Which is exactly what Rove did.
In her own sworn testimony in the case, however, Novak could not pinpoint the date that she had her conversation with Luskin, telling prosecutors that she was not sure wheter it was before or after the first time Rove testified before the grand jury.
Now here’s where it gets all weird. Fitz is getting ready to indict Libby in late October 2005 and in order to save his client from the gallows Luskin offers up his conversation with Viveca Novak in January, 2004 as proof that Rove didn’t change his story just because he knew Cooper was finally going to have to testify.
According to Viveca’s version of events, Luskin calls her and says "hey, I need you to provide cover for my client so I’m ratting you out." Does he tell her what he hopes she will confirm, that he had a conversation with her regarding Matt Cooper in January, 2004? Because that doesn’t appear to be what Viveca Novak recalled. She went in to talk with Fitzgerald on November 10, and says:
Fitzgerald wanted to know when this conversation occurred. At that point I had found calendar entries showing that Luskin and I had met in January and in May. Since I couldn’t remember exactly how the conversation had developed, I wasn’t sure. I guessed it was more likely May.
At which point Luskin freaks out and starts waving his arms around, crying "no, no!" I suppose, and Fitzgerald allows him to make a statement about his tete-a-tete with Viveca. Says Waas:
In a highly unusual move, Rove waived attorney-client privilege in a limited way, so that Luskin could testify that he remembered the conversation with Novak having occurred earlier than she had.
Fine. So we’re supposed to believe that Luskin goes in and makes a statement under oath to the effect that their conversation happened in January. Because what happens next makes absolutely no sense to me. Fitzgerald contacts Time Magazine and says he wants to have Viveca make a statement under oath about conversations she had with Luskin starting in May 2004:
Fitzgerald has now asked a second reporter in TIME’s Washington bureau, Viveca Novak, to testify under oath about conversations she had with Robert Luskin, Rove’s attorney, starting in May 2004, while she was covering the Plame inquiry for TIME.
If Luskin had been claiming January all along, wouldn’t Fitzgerald have wanted to ask Viveca about that particular time period? Why would he bother to bring Viveca in, put her under oath and then not ask her about something Rove’s new defense depended upon? It feels like there is some big piece of something missing here.
By the time Viveca was actually questioned under oath, it appears that Fitzgerald got some kind of independent confirmation about her meetings with Luskin and seems to have zeroed in on a March date that certainly did not corroborate the narrative Luskin was trying to sketch (coming a month after Rove’s first appearance before the grand jury in February 2004). According to Viveca:
A new meeting with Fitzgerald was arranged for Dec. 8. Leaks about my role began appearing in the papers, some of them closer to the mark than others. They all made me feel physically ill. Fitzgerald had asked that I check a couple of dates in my calendar for meetings with Luskin. One of them, March 1, 2004, checked out. I hadn’t found that one in my first search because I had erroneously entered it as occurring at 5 a.m., not 5 p.m.
When Fitzgerald and I met last Thursday, along with another lawyer from his team, my attorney, a lawyer from Time Inc. and the court reporter, he was more focused. The problem with the new March date was that now I was even more confused – previously I had to try to remember if the key conversation had occurred in January or May, and I thought it was more likely May. But March was close enough to May that I really didn’t know. "I don’t remember" is an answer that prosecutors are used to hearing, but I was mortified about how little I could recall of what occurred when.
She’s Rove’s great white hope? Oh she’s just going to make a bang-up witness.
It was not clear from Viveca’s story exactly how Luskin was trying to sculpt Rove’s defense, but she did offer up one bit of information that is placed in a bit more context by the new Waas article:
I didn’t find out until this fall that, according to Luskin, my remark led him to do an intensive search for evidence that Rove and Matt had talked. That’s how Luskin says he found the e-mail Rove wrote to Stephen Hadley at the National Security Council right after his conversation with Matt, saying that Matt had called about welfare reform but then switched to the subject of Iraq’s alleged attempt to buy uranium yellowcake in Niger. According to Luskin, he turned the e-mail over to Fitzgerald when he found it, leading Rove to acknowledge before the grand jury in October 2004 that he had indeed spoken with Cooper.
David Shuster has been reporting that Fitzgerald was having a hard time getting around a 7 month gap — from March, 2004 to October of that year — between the time Viveca tipped Luskin off tuntil the time the Hadley email was produced and Rove got his memory back. Now it turns out Luskin claims his conversation with Viveca happened in January, so we’re looking at a 9 month gap. This is not looking good for the Boy Wonder.
Then Waas rolls Novakula’s coffin back onto the stage:
Novak and Rove have both testified that in their July 9 conversation Rove briefly said that he had heard the same information about Plame that Novak had heard. But Novak has also testified that as a result of the July 9 conversation, he used Rove as a second source for his July 14 column outing Plame as an "agency operative."
"If you believe both of them, Novak was saying that Rove was his source, and Rove was saying that Novak was his source," said one person with first-hand knowlege of the grand jury accounts of both men.
Which may explain Anne Kornblut’s weird comment in the NYT yesterday:
Mr. Novak has testified to the grand jury since Mr. Rove’s last appearance in October 2005.
Now I just do not believe that. Kornblut also says that: "Since Mr. Libby’s indictment, Mr. Fitzgerald has summoned both Ms. Novak and Mr. Luskin to provide grand jury testimony about their conversations." They haven’t. They testified under oath but not before the grand jury, so I assume that she’s just being sloppy in her reporting. Some time around the summer of 2004 Judge Hogan ruled that there would be no more smuggling witnesses into the grand jury via secret elevator, they had to walk in the front door. I cannot imagine a set of circumstances where Robert Novak got anywhere near the grand jury without some kind of media meltdown occuring. But it does make sense that if it’s turning into Novakula v. Rove, Fitz would haul in the bloodless one for another round of questioning.
It’s looking like Scooter might just have been a light appetizer in a veritable Turdblossom feast.



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FITZ!
Double Fitz!!!
All My Fitzy Friends Are Coming Over Tonight !!
Republican Dad gets son off in AZ sex case
check out this story
RawStory has transcipt of Shuster for MSNBC tonight. This part kinda stood out to me:
“Rove’s own lawyers say the key issue is Rove’s failure, for the first ten months of the investigation, to acknowledge that he spoke with Time magazine’s Matt Cooper about former CIA operative Valerie Wilson. Rove sources tell MSNBC the presidential advisor testified again this week he has little memory of the Cooper conversation and argued that any mis-statements the last two years were not intentional. Last summer, following an appearance where Rove testified that most of their conversation was about welfare reform, Matt Cooper testified the entire discussesion was about the Wilsons and that Rove ended the call by saying, I’ve already said too much.
Matt Cooper: “I thought maybe he meant, I’ve been indiscreet, but then as I thought about it, I thought it might just be more benign like, I’ve said too much, I’ve got to get to a meeting. I don’t know exactly what he meant, but I do know the memory of that line has stayed in my head for two years.”"
——-
Sorry if this is already common knowledge. It ain’t to me.
Republican Dad gets son off in AZ sex case
Sorry, I don’t know how to create a link but it’s over at crooks and liars
Specifically, the “I’ve already said too much” quote stuck w/Cooper for 2 yrs.
We give these asshats way too much credit sometimes. It reminds me of what Hal Holbrook said in ATPM: these guys are not that smart, things just got out of hand.
Karl Rove keeps it real. But in jail they keep it realer.
This Friday night it’s Rush Limbaugh as the big fat appetizer.
Monday May 1st is the third anniversary of “Mission Accomplished” so we should dress up like Dubya did.
Roasted Rove may be next Friday–being Cinco de Mayo, it will be Karl-itas.
Minor point (and then I will go back and read more fully) but I asked on previous thread about sources, i.e. people in “according to people familiar with his testimony”- I was assuming Luskin, but then Rayne suggested Team Libby in addition to Team Rove. For some reason (and probably because I’ve been confused by the spin.. bad me) the Libby trial and the Rove doings at GJ got placed in separate mental compartments. So, simple question for Jane esp. or others, even if speculation, are Team Rove and Team Libby still on the same side, and exchanging info via “people familiar”?
VG — that’s very difficult to know at this point. Murray has had excellent sources all along, far better than any of the major outlets, some of whom seem to be outside of “Team Libby” and “Team Rove.” But it may just be that they are preparing for the inevitable and trying to innoculate these days, hard to know.
Sorry – not buying the “I’m so busy I couldn’t remember” excuse.
Not buying the “Oh, lookie – here’s the e-mail that supports my client” discovery.
Not buying the “I’m the subject’s lawyer, but I’ll just insert myself in this case as a witness” tactic; that seems like a conflict to me.
Not buying what Rove and Luskin are selling, which is a variation on a theme that could be the Bush White House’s slogan: “I didn’t do it, but if I did, I forgot I did it, and when I remembered, I realized I did it because I didn’t think it was a crime, and if it was a crime, I/the president secretly decriminalized it with my/his magic wand with the back-spin. So there. No take-backs.”
Paul K – I keep thinking of that line from “Office Space” about federal prison. I’m to much of a gentleman to repeat it here. But Rove might want to think about it.
Set your tivos or vcrs! The White House Correspondents Dinner is tomorrow, on C-Span. 8pm et, 5pm pt.
Joe and Valerie Wilson have been invited. Stephen Colbert is hosting. This is gonna be goooood!
LINKY
Although Jane and Redd have put it together as well as any mere mortals not on Team Fitz are capable of doing, we’re just stuck waiting for our heroes to unveil the real picture. We know the villians will only throw sand in our eyes. Luckily (thanx, #8), those fuckers are “not that smart.”
Anne -
I’m with YOU.
They thought they had a lock. Asscroft as the inoculating AG, never thought there’d be a breach of reporters’ confidentiality. They criminally outed a NOC out of pure political revenge motives and then lied en masse repeatedly to cover it up.
Whether they all get Fitzfucked for the effort remains to be seen, Perps walk all the time. But, I am persuaded of their traitorious guilt.
I still don’t understand WHY the perps at the WH would think there’s anything wrong with an employee at the CIA suggesting that her retired husband would have the expertise to investigate a problem. Frankly, I think it was a good use of ’social networking’…and yet the WH is now crippled by such negativity.
Isn’t it interesting how two reporters have seemed to leap into the investigation in an effort to throw a wrench in the works? Not just refuse to testify, but to get down and dirty and try to muddy the waters.
And their names are being mentioned more and more often as Fitzgerald narrows his focus.
Judy Miller, Cooper, etc. have been a big part of the story from the very beginning.
But there are two reporters who have only recently begun to be identified as perhaps key linchpins in the Rover defense/obstruction effort.
The two reporters are Woodward and Viveca Novak.
Before its all said and done, I wager these two names will be found to be equally important to understanding the Plame scandal as Cooper or Miller.
Fitz has been letting Rove run with line which is a smart move with a big fish. Rove’s recent reaction tells me Fitz just set the hook. Bwahahaha…..
Jane, thanks for that reply. I was also trying to imagine who Rove would have been talking to about his testimony (apart from Team Rove and maybe Team Libby). So, if it’s coming from Team Rove and maybe Team Libby, this could be spin (as I first thought), but I’d guess that Waas doesn’t do “spin” w/o purpose. If not spin, then a “mole” somewhere for a Waas “people” source?
aarrgghhh – can’t see new posts unless I post something…
The law permits the prosecutor to present hearsay testimony in the Grand Jury. So, it is quite possible that sworn, transcribed testimony of Robert Novak could have been read to the new Grand Jury without his actual appearance.
alison james Where on Crooks & Liars?
This is old news here in AZ…. even the Morman congregation is up in arms because NOW this kid is free to go on his mission.
Several of the victims parents have filed civil suits.
To elaborate on my earlier post, Miller and Cooper seemed to be most intent on not talking to Fitz at all. Once the investigation started, they tried to hide behind journalistic privilege. They avoided talking about the case and, for all we know, were generally honest with Fitz once he brought them in.
In contrast, Woodward and Novak were brought crashing into the investigation, either at their own volition or at the behest of Rove/Libby. Every day, we learn more about their role in Plamegate. I see them generating much more news than Cooper or Miller in the days leading up to Rove’s possible indictment.
Newsday article quotes judge praising Fitz, daming Miller
(Via The Raw Story.)
REM
“Losing My Religion”
Life is bigger
It’s bigger than you
And you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no I’ve said too much
I set it up
That’s me in the corner
That’s me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don’t know if I can do it
Oh no I’ve said too much
I haven’t said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try
Every whisper
Of every waking hour I’m
Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
Oh no I’ve said too much
I set it up
…
But that was just a dream
That was just a dream
I thought I’d been following this and now I’m really confused. Kornblut didn’t help matters.
katymine -
Mormons?
Last year my wife served on her first ever jury. Child molestation case. Church-going married Mormon dude had sodomized this little girl in every way imaginable from ages 4 to 7 before getting caught. Got caught when he tried to get one of her school friends to join in the festivities.
The details were icky beyond belief (and I am no naive prude). My wife almost needed therapy after that case. It was terrible.
I’d torture the fucker if I ever got my hands on him. But, the homies in the joint will take care of that. I know that’s a crude, useless, vengeful sentiment, but its’ truly how I feel. It brutalized my wife and everyone who heard the case, as well as the original victim.
1,036 DAYS AND THE KILLING GOES ON!!!
Now once again…are we gunna see Woodward before the grand jury and takin the 5th? Is it possible that he may in fact be findin’ his collar a little tighter now…I think Fitz has this guy in the conspiracy/obstruction noose.
KEEP THE FAITH, THE TRUTH AIN’T GUNNA SET ANY OF THESE FOLKS FREE!!!
OT: Marcy Winograd challenges Harman in CA-36 primary. Raw Story link.
Jane, thanks as always for the Plameology. It’s almost hypnotically fascinating…
My life is easier, Jane, when you tell me what to think about all this.
‘Unindicted Co Conspirator’ what are the legal implications for same, why does a prosecutor name them without indicting them ? t/b indicted later, subject to other forms of legal jeopardy ?
just having some general fuzziness right now and can’t remember what y’all have said about this
ReThugs in Training —
http://www.azcentral.com/arizo…..montini040 4.html
http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=4826370
I think that Fitzgerald and the GJ are contemplating chargeing Rove with the much more serious crime of revealing the identity of an intelligencwe official rather than obsruction. That may be why the questioning lasted so long and why Rove was “suprised” at some of the questions he was made to answer.
BREAKING NEWS:
A net-wash solution to illegal immigration may be in the offing:
___________
MEXICO CITY (AP) – Mexico’s Congress approved a bill Friday decriminalizing possession of small amounts of marijuana, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin for personal use — a measure sure to raise questions in Washington about Mexico’s commitment to the war on drugs.
The only step remaining was the signature of the president, whose office indicated he would sign it…
__________
Maybe I’ll retire to Ajijic / Lake Chalapa area and re-learn my days-of-yore single zig-zap fat bomb roll.
;)
“Plameology” is a word we use casually but Valerie’s extended family is probably somewhat taken aback by it. Plame is a very unusual name in this country (originally Swedish, isn’t it?) and probably most folks with it are related to Valerie…
If I’m able to digest this, what kind of legal jeopardy could Luskin be facing? If Jane put the pieces together right, clearly he intentionally lied to Fitzgerald to cover for Rove. Luskin sure reinforces the sleazy lawyer stereotype.
Bullshit…and Bingo
Here’s the BS:
“Rove and his attorney, Robert Luskin, have also argued that it would have been foolhardy for Rove to lie, knowing that Cooper might someday testify against him, and that other evidence might surface showing that the two had talked about Plame.”
Rove BANKED on the idea that Cooper would NEVER be forced to testify….reporters privilege, and all that. Remember when that battle started? Newspapers cast doubt on Fitz’s being able to win such a battle…a heavy burden, unprecedented, etc. Also….WHAT “other evidence”?? What other evidence, Mr. Rover?? BS.
Now, the BINGO:
“if Rove was getting ready to testify before the grand jury in February ‘04 and he heard from own his lawyer that the recently subpoenaed Matt Cooper considered Rove to be his source, the logical thing to do would be to pick up the phone, call Cooper and say “WTF?”
It wouldn’t, of course, if you were counting on Cooper to remain silent in the situation, something he would have to do if you wouldn’t grant him a confidentiality waiver.
OR, the logical thing to do, if you’re being honest, is to TELL the GJ that, while you can’t remember….you [Rover] are hearing things that indicate I [Rover] did talk with Coop re: Plame! That some gal named Viveka may have some info on this….IF you’re being honest with the GJ. Ms. Hamsher’s hit the nail on the head.
Ghostman
talk about screen caps:
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com…..2196193600
What’s the 5th Amendment rule in a GJ? It seems not applicable unless you’ve been ‘targeted’? Is that the gist, or do normal rules apply? I know no def. counsel.
punaise – nicely done. I got Neil Young streaming, and b/t that and reading here I wouln’t have got your find w/o having bolding on the ‘important’ stuff.
“If I’m able to digest this, what kind of legal jeopardy could Luskin be facing? If Jane put the pieces together right, clearly he intentionally lied to Fitzgerald to cover for Rove. Luskin sure reinforces the sleazy lawyer stereotype. “
Fitz has got no trouble throwing lawyers in jail if they break the law to help clients. See his past history.
Ghostman -
They are Fitzfucked, I can just feel it comin’…
Anne,
I’m with you too! Rove is like a serial killer. Very intelligent and he gets a special satisfaction out of each and every kill. I can see him sitting back with his hands behind his head replaying every piece of his vile plan. Grinning, knowing once again he’s f*cked somebody..f*cked them good.
“Rove also testified to the grand jury that when he told Cooper that Plame worked at the agency, he was only passing along unverified gossip.” Murray Waas, National Journal
So are we supposed to believe that KKKarl Rove, possibly the second most powerful person in the federal government (next to Cheney), and the president’s no. 1 political operative, who is engaged in an effort with other White House staff to discredit and punish Joe Wilson, hears some “unverified gossip” about Wilson’s wife working at the CIA, and does not immediately pick up the phone and call George Tenet to find out whether the “gossip” is true? Instead he leaks information to reporters without attenpting to verify it? I don’t think so. The truth of the matter was important; Cheney, Rove, Libby et al. thought it would help them discredit Wilson–and Rove doesn’t make one simple phone call to find out if it’s true? Right, and George W. Bush was a Rhodes Scholar.
All I have to say is, if Rove is not actually guilty, then he is the most unlucky man in the history of the world. It means:
1.He forgot the conversation with Cooper. If he hadn’t forgotten, no problem.
2.He can’t remember where he learned about Plame. If he remembers which journalist he heard it from, that can be substantiated, and it makes Rove’s new claim that he was apparently explicitly just passing on unsubstantiated gossip to Cooper, and Novak, look more plausible.
3.Novak used him as a source even though Rove intended no such thing.
4.Libby testified that he brought up Plame with Cooper, making it for all the world look like he was covering up the fact that Cooper went into that conversation already knowing about Plame, having learned from Rove.
5.Cooper’s call just happened not to be logged according to the ordinary system that would have been caught in the subpoenas.
6.Rove’s email to Hadley documenting the call somehow didn’t swept up in the subpoenas for emails – either the wrong keywords were used (like no “Niger”?) or separate requests didn’t sweep up certain dates or people, like July 11, right in the middle of the whole mess, or Rove or Hadley, marginal players.
If almost any of this had been different (and this is just off the top of my head), Rove would most likely have no problem – though he might have been fired.
In one respect, Rove is definitely awfully unlucky: Ashcrift recused himself, and Fitzgerald was appointed.
That’s an interesting point, XYZ. How was the situation orchestrated so that Woodward and V. Novak show up late and with “interesting” versions of events? One of many questions we hope will be answered someday.
Regardless, Rove is pretty well fucked. We should all give thanks to James Comey for convincing Ashcroft to recuse himself, which is what made all of this possible.
Clarification someone?
“It wouldn’t, of course, if you were counting on Cooper to remain silent in the situation, something he would have to do if you wouldn’t grant him a confidentiality waiver. Which is exactly what Rove did.”
The did and didn’t s ? Rove wouldn’t grant/ give Cooper a confidentiality waver?
bkny, the headline at the bottom is just too priceless. Prostitutes refuse to service Roberts. Ya think?!
Fitz always gets his men. George Ryan was the 70th something indictment in Illinois. It is unfortunate that Fitz doesn’t run by our desired timelines but rest assured that justice will be done. Rover thinks that he can hoodwink this prosecutor. Clearly he cannot. Whether the indictment comes today, tomorrow, or twelve weeks from now I have complete confidence that Rover’s dirty deeds will come undone. Fitz is no partisan, that we can all agree. But in a country that has politicized everything we can count on Fitz to do what’s right by the law and we all know as we wait in joyful hope of Fitzmas that the truth will prevail.
FITZ!!!
*ilson said:
I still don’t understand WHY the perps at the WH would think there’s anything wrong with an employee at the CIA suggesting that her retired husband would have the expertise to investigate a problem.
– Because they think this makes Joe Wilson a faggot, and they think other people think like them; unfortunately, at least as far as their base is concerned, they’re right.
44: you may have just drafted Fitz’s final argument to the jury!
Ghostman
TheOtherWA –
Agreed. We have much to learn about why Viveca and Woodward entered the scene when they did.
This all makes me wonder – does Rove have any other reporters, etc. out there in reserve, ready to be brought in to further muddy the waters?
Probably not. But maybe.
Valley (#10):
No way Team Libby and Team Rove “still on the same side”.
The pedal is verrrrrry close to the metal.
The pope isn’t polish any more.
It’s like, “What’s this ‘we’, paleface?”
Karl will step right on Scooterboy’s face and his family jewels.
Then he might send flowers.
VG — Rove wouldn’t grant Cooper a waiver. Cooper had one foot in jail when Gold Bars said to the press that if Cooper was going to jail it wasn’t for Karl Rove. Cooper’s attorney took that to mean Rove was granting him a waiver and Cooper testified, avoiding jail, but I don’t think anyone believes that with Luskin’s statement Rove was actually offering Cooper a waiver. Cooper would be on Oz right about now if he had to rely on Rove.
Jeff — Yes and I would add that if Waas’s article is correct, Novak left the Rove conversation with the impression Rove had told him something, rather than vice versa. Just tragic.
Fitz has Rover dead to rights on perjury-that much is clear. However, this is no penny ante Vegas poker player we’re talking about here. I remain convinced that Cheney is his ultimate target and he will get him by association if not in an actual indictment. I truly believe that Fitz’s sense of fair play is egregiously offended by the behavior of this administration and he will play his cards to the max to exert maximum leverage. He will do everything within his mandate to expose this regime, as limited as it is. He will only indict Rover when he has an airtight case. Perhaps it is only now with the new grand jury that he has been able to get them to indict. The Viveca Novak stuff only adds fuel to the fire. Luskin is smoking crack if he believes for one minute that her testimony exculpates Rover. He is deep in the shitter and the White House knows it.
Bye Karl don’t let he door of history smack you in the ass as you take the perp walk to oblivion.
Permanent Republican majority? Not so much.
Game. Set. Match. Fuckwad
OT or not?
Flagging memory.. anyone remember if Rove was thought to be one of Woodward’s sources?
if rove is indicted, so what, the media will spin it like it’s a “liberal” vendetta and the majority of sheep will agree
the president has already moved the bar from “anyone involved” to “anyone guilty”, and you will hear a chorus of “in America a man is innocent until pr oven otherwise”
all of a sudden Conservatives will shout a line they only shout when it’s one of their own
so the president will be able to say “if he’s convicted I will fire him”, or some bushism that we never heard before in the English language
it all comes down to this, we have to win a majority, and we probably have to do it in both congress and the senate
Jane, thanks again, this time for the bit about the waiver.
meta #47:
oh hell, i didn’t even see that! i got thoroughly stuck on ‘bush responds to congressional calls for accountability’ under the photo of rep jackson lee in custody. lol.
p.s.
why is no one making noise about dubai awarded another contract that involves our national security?
it does appear that we are watching the outer actors in these players show what they want the public to see.
we may also be looking at the conspiracy charges and the rest of this is only the confirmation. There are so many leads pointing to the interaction of a great deal of people, many new ones named now each week. the perjury, the obstruction of justice, making false statement pale by comparison to conspiracy to out a CIA agent, conspiracy to commit election fraud, conspiracy to commit treason, conspiracy to engage in bribery, to award gifts for patronage, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and by all means, with all the others, disturbing the peace.
fear not, if we have a government, it does seem like we will see them submit to the sheriff when he comes calling. the problem is, these people know exactly what to do to suspend the elections with another pre planned terrorist incident. they have arranged to defeat every homeland security measure that would make us secure. they have given contracts for billions to companies they profit from. they are some of the worst criminals in power this country has ever seen.
and this is much due to the dog and the trained boy. rove is why this government is there, and is the heart of the corruption that strangles lady justice
Hangin’ Time
Now, let’s see. Some facts, and speculation:
Fact: Rover has testified FIVE times to the GJ, and answered questions at least once to FBI guys.
Speculation: Rover has therefore, been asked questions about ALL sorts of things in what is now, a rather voluminous stack of transcripts.
Go forward to trial. Rover’s defense is “bad memory”. He so testifies. Fitz, on cross-exam, sits back and says:
“Now, Mr. Rover, you say you had a bad memory. Well….on X date you told the GJ specifically about this subject….and on another date you told the GJ the specifics about (whatever)…and on this other date, you told the GJ all about these other conversations with A,B, and C. You know, thru ALL your testimony, you were VERY specific about all sorts of things…except when we get to things you got indicted for…and THEN, your memory gets hazy??? Well, Mr. Rover??”
And….that would be the proverbial “deer caught in the headlights” look from Mr. Rover as he sits on the witness stand. Tsk, tsk.
Ghostman
# 47 I caught that too! I wonder what the story is behind that quip.
Jeff @ 44 — that’s awesome.
Okay, I went to find more about the Rove “not waiver.” But this was the first thing I found. I am not doubting you Jane, at all, but it is this kind of stuff that leads to confusion:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12…..38;emc=rss
===Associates of Mr. Rove said that he did not initially recall the conversation with Mr. Cooper amid the hundreds of calls and e-mail messages he deals with each day, and that once the message to Mr. Hadley was uncovered he took it to prosecutors and testified fully.
They have said that Mr. Rove had signed a waiver to allow reporters to testify about their confidential discussions with him and that he testified about his conversation with Mr. Cooper long before Mr. Cooper did.===
I’m gonna keep looking. But, in the meantime- Jane, I’m sure you must have written about this waiver thing- link?
Don’t doubt Jane about the waiver. She’s right. That’s how it happened. It was beautiful. Thank you gold bars.
And of course, we still don’t know:
1. The actual date that Luskin “found” the ‘missing’ 2003 email [sometime between January, 2004 (or March) and October, 2004, according to Luskin].
NOR
2. The actual date that Luskin revealed the formerly-’missing’ email to Fitzgerald [it was, I assume, some period of days or perhaps a week or more prior to the actual October, 2004 day of Rove’s return to the grand jury; which would mean the existence of the email was technically made known to Fitzgerald by Luskin before the date the District Court decision was issued ordering Cooper to comply with the grand jury subpoena, if I’m not mistaken].
Meaning Luskin searched tirelessly from January (or March) through most of September, 2004 for evidence not known to exist of a ‘forgotten’ phone call in 2003, and found it! — days before a crucial District Court decision was issued which resulted in cutting off any chance for his client to safely recant any Cooper-related testimony that preceded it — if not for the magical ‘missing’ email that was submitted in the nick of time… Does Luskin or Rove have a ‘mole’ in the District Court somewhere?
VG
If I remember correctly, there was some doubt about the general waiver referred to in that article. Miller and Cooper were both saying the “sign the waiver or you are fired” type of waiver was by it’s very nature coercive.
Cooper was looking for a specific waiver by Rove to Cooper, not a general “any reporter I might have talked to” waiver.
“it would have been foolhardy for Rove to lie”
Yes, it would have been, and it was.
Blank Kludge–is Neil Young’s new album online? If so, where?
68
talkleft has a link to the neil young album on her page
TalkLeft has its own take on the Waas article. Interesting read:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..extensive/
Ooops I meant thinkprogress not talkleft
Leopold at Truthout:
Fitzgerald to Seek Indictment of Rove
By Jason Leopold
t r u t h o u t | Report
Friday 28 April 2006
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042806Y.shtml
fyi…
who is gold bars?
did anyone address earlier question for more information on how or why Fitz might have “unindicted co-conspirators?
Is there any evidence, specifically pointing to Bush being Woodward’s source?
Love this from tpm
Don’t get bamboozled. In criminal cases we don’t call them “settlement agreements.” They are plea bargains.
And while the prosecutor’s recommendation to the court will carry great weight, the judge is not obligated to ratify the plea agreement.
Oh, and the money being paid is called a fine. Black can call it reimbursement, but that’s BS.
Luskin is gold bars. He once accepted payment in gold bars from a client, who, shall we say, wasn’t someone who was likely to have come across gold bars honestly.
sorry-
He’s talking about Limbaugh’s case
VG:
MATTHEWS: What finally made him do it? What human impulse said to Karl Rove, damn it don‘t make this guy go to jail. He‘s a good guy.
SAUBER: I‘ve never spoken to Karl Rove, so I can‘t tell you. All I know is that Mr. Rove‘s lawyer was quoted in the “Wall Street Journal†as saying, if Matt Cooper is going to jail, he‘s not going to jail for Karl Rove.
MATTHEWS: Bob Luskin, the attorney, yes.
SAUBER: Yes. I took that as an invitation to pick up the phone and say if that really is the case, give us a personal and direct waiver so that Matt can testify.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9679820/
“I think that Fitzgerald and the GJ are contemplating chargeing Rove with the much more serious crime of revealing the identity of an intelligencwe official rather than obsruction. That may be why the questioning lasted so long and why Rove was “suprised†at some of the questions he was made to answer.”
I would LOVE to see Fitzgerald get an indictment against Rove for ratting out Valerie Plame, in addition to his perjury and/or obstruction charges. I really get the feeling, though, that Libby, Rove, and the rest of that lot threw so much dust in the air that they did probably succeed in obscuring the core of the issue with regard to who specifically ratted out Plame.
However, I suppose I wouldn’t rule it out either.
Time will tell…
CBL @32-
“Unindicted co-conspirator” means just that, someone who conspired but isn’t indicted for some reason; usually they’re cooperating with the investigation and cut a deal to be protected from indictment.
Jane-
I can’t help but think that the only real purpose to presenting the Viveca Novak testimony to the Grand Jury is to establish Rove’s commission of a crime. I just can’t see how it is exculpatory of Rove. If Fitz was ever persuaded by Luskin’s explanation of Viveca’s role as a mnemonic device then he could just say, “Thanks. That clears up a lot.” Fitz didn’t need to put Viveca in the Grand Jury if he believed Luskin. He has no obligation to present evidence of Rove’s innocence to the Grand Jury. He has to put Viveca into the GJ only to show a conspiracy to obstruct justice by Rove, and maybe Luskin. And, that’s what I think he’s after.
Are there any attorneys in the room now?
he heard from own his lawyer that the recently subpoenaed Matt Cooper considered Rove to be his source
Jane, great post. One small point. Weren’t the subpoenas to journalists issued in May 2004? If so, Rove’s story makes even less sense. Why would he have expected in January 2004 that Cooper would testify if Cooper had not even been subpoenaed yet?
4 hrs is a long time. none of this explains what frame of mind rove was in that he would give up cheney’s 250 emails. i’m kinda partial to billmons squealer post. 4 hrs is a long time. i’m wondering what else fitz got out of him, if he’s just using him at this point to wrap the noose tighter around the big catch. if he did get more out of him, would fitz hold back indicting til he got a few more people in front of the grand jury?
http://billmon.org/archives/002409.html
Gee, gold bars — sounds like a sleazy guy. How does one find out Fitz’ prior case histories — from time-to-time mention is made to his standard procedures —- like Fitz is not above putting attorneys in jail if they break the law (thank goodness).
And, yes, I am thankful for Comey… what a guy he must be.
I hope Fitz can get Rove, Cheney and Bush together….. in about 10 days. Thanks for your helpful responses.
This just posted – Rove to be indicted!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042806Y.shtml
Arrrggggh…okay, there is a much better NYT article, but it is behind the firewall, and I am not a subscriber…
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/…..2c%20David
Read it via L/N, which I can’t link.
===The New York Times
July 11, 2005 Monday
HEADLINE: For Time Reporter, Decision to Testify Came After Frenzied Last-Minute Calls
Matthew Cooper, a reporter for Time magazine, stood before a federal judge on Wednesday, facing up to four months in jail for refusing to testify about a confidential source. But he told the judge that he had just received a surprising communication from his source that would allow him to testify before a grand jury investigating the disclosure of the identity of a covert C.I.A. operative.
”A short time ago,” Mr. Cooper said, ”in somewhat dramatic fashion, I received an express personal release from my source.”
But the facts appear more complicated than they seemed in court. Mr. Cooper, it turns out, never spoke to his confidential source that day, said Robert D. Luskin, a lawyer for the source, who is now known to be Karl Rove, the senior White House political adviser.
[..]Around 7:30 on Wednesday morning, Mr. Cooper had said goodbye to his son, resigned to his fate. His lawyer, Mr. Sauber, called to alert him to a statement from Mr. Luskin in The Wall Street Journal.
”If Matt Cooper is going to jail to protect a source,” Mr. Luskin told The Journal, ”it’s not Karl he’s protecting.”
That provided an opening, Mr. Cooper said. ”I was not looking for a waiver,” he said, ”but on Wednesday morning my lawyer called and said, ‘Look at The Wall Street Journal. I think we should take a shot.’ And I said, ‘Yes, it’s an invitation.”’
In court shortly after 2, he told Judge Thomas F. Hogan of the Federal District Court in Washington that he had received ”an express personal release from my source.”
That statement surprised Mr. Luskin, Mr. Rove’s lawyer. Mr. Luskin said he had only reaffirmed the blanket waiver, in response to a request from Mr. Fitzgerald.
”Karl was not afraid of what Cooper is going to say and is clearly trying to be fully candid with the prosecutor,” Mr. Luskin said.===
crooks & Liars has a link to Neil Young. (also). I’ll be interested to see how this turns out. I can say “Don’t Need” is quite good. At some parts Neil sounds like a David Byrne who’s been smoking too much SOMETHING. There’s a song (can’t recall which one) that has a great audio collage of Decider’s words literally ‘flipflopping’– as in ‘WMD’ for one. Wonder how many stations (ClearChannel) will put this in ‘heavy rotation’.
———-
Cheney, Rove, Libby, Hadley, Rice and Gonzo. ALL of ‘em. Make my day. Like Neil says, ‘Let’s impeach the President for lyin’”
Didn’t someone say yesterday that Fitz could give Rove a couple of weeks to tie up loose ends before the indictment? Maybe that’s what the ten days are for.
AS A CHICAGO RESIDENT, AND WITH BUSH’S POPULARITY IN THE DUMPSTER, AND
REMEMBERING ALL THE “DRILLS” OF “HIJACKED PLANES” on 9/11 — koinky-dink?
THREE DAY DISASTER DRILL SET FOR CHICAGO NEXT WEEK.
I HOPE IT’S JUST A DRILL. My fellow chicagoans, duck and cover.
And this is GETTING NO COVERAGE in Chicago. All that media in Chicago looking the other way. Scares the shit out of me. Spread the word, maybe we can prevent the next 9/11, 5-2?
http://www.belleville.com/mld/…..445338.htm
Three-day drill to test state’s emergency preparedness
ANN SANNER
Associated Press
SPRINGFIELD, Ill. – Taking lessons they’ve learned from a previous statewide disaster drill, Illinois officials next week will test the state’s ability to respond to a flu pandemic and a terrorist attack during a three-day exercise.
The drill will focus on coordinating emergency responders and using state and local people and equipment to handle both a public health emergency and terrorist incident.
“This is a really ambitious exercise and it was intended to stress our system so that we can find if there are weaknesses,” said Patti Thompson, spokeswoman for the Illinois Emergency Management Agency.
The event will test the state’s capability to respond to two major disasters simultaneously as governments gear up against terrorist threats and the daunting prospect of widespread disease such as that posed by avian flu.
At a forum Thursday in Chicago on a potential bird flu pandemic, officials said the city has a comprehensive plan to handle an outbreak one federal public health official said is sure to hit the nation. Other preparations have included upgrading a state health lab to test suspected cases.
U.S. Department of Homeland Security grants will pay for next week’s $750,000 drill. Running from Tuesday to Thursday, it will involve 1,500 to 2,000 people from the state’s Emergency Management Agency and departments of Transportation, Corrections, Public Health and Agriculture.
The money will help pay for employees’ overtime and extra workers who are relieving law enforcement officers and firefighters while they participate, Thompson said.
One area officials hope to improve is communications. During a May 2003 exercise that simulated a biological attack, state officials found that faxed messages to county emergency officials and hospitals were too slow, Thompson said. A satellite messaging system and a satellite television truck purchased with federal funds will be tested.
The TV equipment shows officials in the State Emergency Operations Center in Springfield what’s happening at a disaster site, Thompson said, and satellite messages will be instantaneous.
The simulated pandemic will hit Chicago and Cook County. A staged “terrorist attack” will occur at the Northeastern Illinois Public Safety Training Academy in Glenview. Along with state authorities in the Springfield operations center aiding responders, federal Homeland Security officials will assist as well as evaluate the state’s response.
The state Public Health Department will be particularly interested in the staged pandemic, as the agency will test procedures for dispensing medication and coordinating medical workers and volunteers, spokeswoman Melaney Arnold said.
“We want to make sure that everything we have planned is in place,” Arnold said. “This is something we’ve been working on for a very long time.”
On Tuesday, the Illinois Department of Agriculture lab in Galesburg became the first lab in the state to receive certification to perform testing on suspected bird-flu cases.
An avian flu pandemic is “an inevitable event,” Lt. Commander Michelle Watters, regional health preparedness coordinator for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, said at Thursday’s forum at the Union League Club of Chicago.
She and other forum speakers urged business owners to start planning now for an outbreak by limiting travel, telecommuting and substituting teleconferences for meetings, and encouraging “common sense” hygiene.
—
On the Net
Illinois Emergency Management Agency: http://www.state.il.us/iema/
Illinois Department of Public Health: http://www.idph.state.il.us/
Northeastern Illinois Public Safety Training Academy: http://www.nipsta.org/about.aspx
Avian flu: http://www.alertchicago.org; http://www.panflu.gov
Jane/VG/et. al.:
Didn’t they all have to sign some general waiver at the beginning of all this b/c Bushie was going to smoke out the leaker? Most of the journalists felt that kind of waiver was coerced and asked for specific waivers.
Also–I forgot about Luskin making that statement that if “Matt Cooper is going to jail; it isn’t for Karl Rove”. When does he make that statement in relation to his conversation with Viveca? Is it after that conversation–when he is supposed to be desperately searching thru the emails to make sure Rover didn’t talk to Cooper? It seems like it must have been after and that statement seems very odd to me juxtaposed with his Viveca conversation.
Annie @83-I like Billmon’s theory too. Remember, Fitz could indict Rove AND have a deal in his pocket to use Rove’s cooperation at the same time. That’s what I want for Fitzmas-Rove indicted AND squealing on Big Time and his pet President.
Jane – Matthews made me laugh:
“What human impulse said to Karl Rove…” Matthews goes far overboard assuming Rove is human, let alone having ANY human impulses.
—-
I’m still lauging.
Jane!!! Thanks again. I was busy googling, so I hadn’t seen your post #78 when I posted just above #86. But, now, having read the NYT (select) article I understand, and it fits perfectly with the interview you link… same thing… WSJ… WSJ does us a favor… who woulda thunk it.
Anne Holliday (85)April 28th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Anne, thanks for the link.
Flight 93 nonsense. Plane parts found 8 miles from the rest of the plane? On a windless day?
Movie’s getting trashed on the movie’s website.
http://www.universalpictures.c…..um.php?f=1
Visit the link for audio ad video links: http://whatreallyhappened.com/usaf_911.html
“Sixty seven times in the year before 9/11/01 planes were off course and fighter jets responded, so where were the fighter jets on 9/11? It’s more than incompetent, it’s criminal”
War Games: The Key to a 9/11 USAF Stand Down
On 9/11 there was no reaction from the USAF as hijacked aircraft flew through US airspace and plowed into buildings. This lack of response is inconceivable unless the USAF was stood down.
Careful planning made this easy to achieve.
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Instruction CJCSI 3610.01A (dated 1 June 2001) changed the protocol so that any requests for “potentially lethal support” had to come explicitly from the secretary of defense, leaving commanders in the field unable to respond to hijackings in any meaningful fashion.
Five military exercises were held on 9/11, and this resulted in flight controllers, commanders and pilots being unable to distinguish real world events from exercise scenarios.
9/11 Flight Controller:
“Is this real world or exercise?”
Even if a hostile plane was identified it couldn’t be fired upon because secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld was “out of the loop” during the attacks (as was the acting head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff).
Chaos reigned supreme on 9/11 thanks to the above…
WMV video download (177kB)
VOICE TWO: Do we want to think about scrambling aircraft?
VOICE ONE: Oh, God, I don’t know.
VOICE TWO: That’s a decision somebody’s going to have to make probably in the next ten minutes.
VOICE ONE: Oh, you know, everybody just left the room.
…and this effectively stood down the USAF when it was needed most.
Dr. Robert Bowman, a man so decorated with medals and honors they could fill a patriotic Christmas tree, has joined the ranks of those who are declaring that the attacks on 9/11 were an inside job. As right wing world comes tumbling down, more prominent individuals are coming forward with their doubts and concerns with the official report. Some have little more than the powers of their own deduction, others are expert engineers and physicists.
Dr. Bowman has inside knowledge of military protocol, and has stated that it is apparent to him that the massive military exercises that took place on September 11, 2001 were intentionally staged to confuse civil defenses. The person who headed those exercises? None other then Richard Cheney, otherwise known as Dead-eye Dick. [Choice Changes]
I would LOVE to see Fitzgerald get an indictment against Rove for ratting out Valerie Plame, in addition to his perjury and/or obstruction charges. I really get the feeling, though, that Libby, Rove, and the rest of that lot threw so much dust in the air that they did probably succeed in obscuring the core of the issue with regard to who specifically ratted out Plame.
However, I suppose I wouldn’t rule it out either.
Time will tell…
I also think it would put much more pressure on Rove to reveal who originally authorized the whole conspiracy. If Rove is facing hard time in maximum security he is much more likely to squeal.
The details/confusinos/smoke in the Vivika/Luskin/Rover defense makes my head hurt.
Jane, does it help to step back? Two or 3 days ago, the WSJ lead editorial was its contribution to the “good leak” vs “bad leak” issue, with the WSJ predictably coming out further to the right of the WaPo.
The WSJ crew tried to make several key points: (1) that Joe Wilson has been thoroughly discredited, (2) that Valerie Plame was the primary instigator of sending Wilson to Niger, (3 that Joe/Valerie were engaged in nepotism — hence, the subtle message was that her “outing” was not only not a crime, it was a good thing for the CIA to get rid of unprincipled employees. Yes, the editorial was that bad, and worse.
How worse? The WSJ then took after that partisan liberal, unpatriotic Mary McCarthy — good riddance for undermining national security.
In this morning’s (New England) print edition of the NYT, an article by Bumiller and __? restates the Rove story but also repeats the limited view that Plame was outted in connection with an effort to discredit Joe Wilson. But as we’ve discussed in the past, there were separate ulterior reasons for discreding Plame, just as there were likely ulterior reasons for firing McCarthy. There is a purge going on, with the Bush Administration and Goss deliberately forcing out any agents and analysts that may be “disloyal” (to Bush, not disloyal to the country or the truth), who might hold independent views, and who might be courageous/enterprising enough to do something about checking out phony assertions the Administration is making to support its war policies.
It seems to me that the latest leaks of what’s going on with Rove are consistent with that continuing overall strategy. While the immediate focus is no doubt to avoid Rove’s indictment and its political impact on Bush, the larger goal is to continue the distraction away from (1) the purge of credible, independent intelligence people at CIA and (2) the larger conspiracy that involved so many others in the Bush White House.
Lots of people were involved with the effort to discredit Plame, not just Cheney and Hadley, but also including Rice, who pointed reporters in Plame’s direction while the cabal was in Africa.
I read Bumiller’s and Kornblut’s articles, and even Waas, as derived from Rove spin, consistent with the strategy of keeping the focus on whether or not Rove forgot or lied, whether he conveniently remember or didn’t — but away from the larger conspiracy of many to purge the CIA and undermine/intimidate anyone’s ability/incentive to claim they lied us into war. Last week, we were talking about that, but the focus on Rove’s brain has distracted us from that.
“Matthews goes far overboard assuming Rove is human”
I thought it had been firmly established that Rove is an amphibian.
Anonymous Liberal: It’s my understanding in January of ‘04 the white house had been subpoenaed for all records regarding contact with Matt Cooper. You’re right, Cooper himself was not subpoenaed until later. I think there was adequate reason, however for Rove to assume someone might eventually pose some questions to Cooper.
“According to Viveca’s version of events, Luskin calls her and says “hey, I need you to provide cover for my client so I’m ratting you out.”
IMO this may speak to the character of some evidence that Fitz has, or that Vivika fears Fitz might have.
She agreed to let Luskin, “rat her out,” but she wouldn’t bend her version to agree with his timetable.
Anyone know how Vivica and Luskin arranged their meetings? It can’t be email, because Fitz is relying on their calendars. Why not just say they talked on the phone? The date of the phone call is traceable while the content is not. Evidently either Luskin or Vivica or both wouldn’t agree to this.
So, how did they communicate to arrange their meetings?
Thank, Swopa. Let’s add to the list Viveca Novak’s failure – twice! – to confirm that she talked out of school with Luskin in january 2004, before Rove’s testimony. (For the record, I’m actually prepared to believe Luskin and Rove on this one, especially if that’s what Luskin said under oath or in an affidavit.)
Two other quick notes. It looks to me from what Waas reported that Rove may now be going for a “Cooper-is-a-Democrat-partisan” defense, if it comes to that.
Second, one of the things that’s always been extremely hard to discern is just what Rove testified to, and when. But here’s one possibility that occurred to me reading Waas: when first questioned in fall 2003, Rove seems to have sourced his knowledge of Plame to reporters. I suspect he either asserted or made it sorta sound like his source was Novak, at that point imagining that Novak would never be questioned. But when Novak was questioned, Rove slightly changed his story, saying he didn’t imagine he was a source for Rove, as he was just saying he had heard the same thing from another journalist, whose identity was lost in the mists of time past.
That’s just a guess.
This comment is off topic but I thought it was important that everyone at FDL knew that there is an ACLU petition concerning torture that was started today. When I signed the petition earlier this evening I was number 166. The petition is now at 3,374. They are looking to get 10,000 names. I hope everyone who reads FDL will sign the petition.
Thanks.
Here is part of what the petition says:
Torture is Un-American – Let’s Make Sure Our Leaders Know
Dear Madam Secretary:
Torture. Government kidnapping. Indefinite detention.
These are not ideas we associate with the United States of America. They do not represent who we are as Americans. By promoting and condoning these practices in our military and intelligence forces, your administration has broken faith with the American values of freedom and fairness.
This week marks two years since the world first saw the terrible images from Abu Ghraib prison. As human rights experts from around the world gather in Geneva to condemn torture, the U.S. must stand by its own time-honored principles.
Widespread evidence, including over 100,000 government documents released to the ACLU under the Freedom of Information Act, shows a systemic pattern of torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. custody.
These acts go against our most cherished American ideals. When our leaders promote torture and fail to hold themselves accountable for illegal abuses, they no longer speak for me or for the America in which I believe.
We demand our country back.
Here is the link to the petition….
http://www.thepetitionsite.com…../425618634
Shorter Luskin: “Hey, my client would be crazy to lie since there will likely be further evidence to impeach his testimony. It just doesn’t make sense.”
Hey guys:
Anne Holliday says:
April 28th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
This just posted – Rove to be indicted!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042806Y.shtml
OT
.
We’ve gotten a new style of portrait in this country. “The happy mug shot”
I wonder if Rep. Bob Ney will opt for the same style ? Prosecutors Opt for Wide Probe of Rep. Ney
By Susan Schmidt and Chris Cillizza
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, April 29, 2006; Page A04
Federal prosecutors signaled this week that they have decided to pursue a wide range of allegations about dealings between Rep. Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio) and lobbyist Jack Abramoff, rather than bringing a narrowly focused bribery case against the congressman.
Jason Leopold does not have a terribly good track record in his reporting, so I take his stuff with the JH grain of salt. But, I have to give him credit for his ability to keep stirring things up. Which is not to say, of course, that Rove won’t be indicted.
Jane–
I’m rolling on the floor! I truly appreciate your snarky analysis! Here’s hoping Karl “Ratfucker” Rove is in the company of orange jump suits soon!
“Gee, gold bars — sounds like a sleazy guy.”
Rove’s attorney, Bob Luskin took payment of $500,000 from a client working for Columbian Drug lords in “gold bars.”
I can’t believe he’s still allowed to practice law.
jeff @ 44
Amazing. Loved it!
From Jason Leopold Fitzgerald to Seek Indictment of Rove:
In the event that an indictment is handed up by the grand jury it would be filed under seal. A press release would then be issued by Fitzgerald’s press office indicating that the special prosecutor will hold a news conference, likely on a Friday afternoon, sources close to the case said. The media would be given more than 24 hours notice of a press conference, sources added.
Fitz press conf. Friday May 5?
Rove lied to the GJ. He will be indicted for purgery if justice is served.
I think Cheney is Fitz’s ultimate target
Who cares about Bush? Cheney is the power behind the throne.
Fitz will get Cheney.
I hope Leopold is right.
If Rove is indicted, does that lessen the likelihood of an eventual indictment against Cheney?
colleenmilitarymom-
But Bush is the decider!
I care about Bush. If he can be Cheney’s puppet, or PNAC’s puppet, he will be used by another and even more harm can be done. Plus, Bush is guilty as sin in all this activity and he is smarter than he looks, than he acts and sounds. He must be removed from office. The buck stops with Bush not Cheney.
Just read the truthout…
Although it seems the author’s cred = ‘not so much’ around these parts, I’ll assume accuracy, more or less (in this case, you need Alice and a looking glass for direction.) Here’s one idea. Rove’s being indicted. Fitz had him all along. If weeks ago, Luskin knew this (hence the WH shift) I think he flipped/got that special immunity for this Wed’s four hrs of hell and gave up Cheney, plus others.
cathy 111
please, show a little respect.
Not the decider–
The Decider
Am I the only one who thinks Judge Hogan’s comment cited in the new Newsday article and linked to by The Shadow (#25) is explosive.
Miller wasn’t an innocent bystander, Hogan said. “She was an actor in the commission of a crime,†he said. “She was part of the transfer of information that was a crime.â€
He can only be referring to a conspiracy to out a CIA operative, no? Obstruction of justice and perjury couldn’t occur at this stage (Libby leaking to Judy) of the scheme, right? What other crime could he be referring to? I imagine Hogan is basing his comment on all the evidence Fitz presented regarding the ‘get Wilson campaign.’ Am I wrong about this?
Oh please Jason Leopold be right and not just full of Plame porn. Hasn’t this guy been right up to now? A month ago he said there’d be indictment(s) in a month. What has he got wrong, anybody please?
Truthout, Jason Leopold, published earlier this week, that Rove had received a target letter, BEFORE, Rove testified this week. If Rove had received a target letter, Fitz would have already indicted him. As rwcole commented so astutely earlier this week, the indictment follows the target letter by about 24 seconds.
Leopold, however, will not come off his “scoop.” If Rove had received a target letter, why would he go before the Grand Jury? He thought he could AVOID a target letter by going before the Grand Jury.
Predicting that Rove will be indicted is like “predicting” that the sun will come up. Everybody already agrees that there is a very, very, high likelihood that Rove will be indicted.
Leopold does get stuff right, sometimes, but he is very loose with his sources. This makes it easy for idiots such as Howard Kurtz, Jim Brady and others to claim the progressive blogs are unreliable.
I think Jason is dead wrong about the target letter, and I think he’s making a big mistake by not admitting it. I think he’s trying to distract from that mistake by this latest non-scoop about Rove being indicted.
BTW, Jason occasionally assumes a name other than his own and comments at FDL, tnh…..
Jane and Christy do not overreach, ever. They are very careful, which is one of several reasons their traffic is so darn high.
You know it occurred to me that the reason for team Libby’s challenge to Fitz’s authority was not becasue they expected to win but rather to file an interlocutory appeal (one the occurs while the case is still continuing) and then ask for a stay of the trial. Anything to buy time for that last minute pardon. Im sure it wont work but who sits on the appeals Court above Walton? Anyone know anything about the panel? Im sure team Libby does.
Blank Kludge — yes, I’m almost with you — actually I think Fitz had Cheney already — if Rove gave somebody up intentionally, it was Bush. If he gave somebody up without realizing all the pieces of the puzzle Fitz has command of, well, I think he gave up Bush that way too.
I’m going to dream, hope and pray that Rove is indicted and we have two unnamed unindicted co-conspirators (Bush and Cheney). Of course, that will leave many problems to be solved.
Bush may have Rove, but we have Colbert. Only a comic has the kind of brass to make Kristol vibrate with confusion and spout crazy nonsense bullshit. Great moment in PNAC history.
Everything Luskin is trying to spin is just so completely counterintuitive. It boggles the mind. If these people think Fitz is that stupid, they simply aren’t paying attentionLuskin seems to be in for a bit of trouble himself. It would be fun to see him disbarred. Whoopie. My burning question is how far Fitz is going into motive. Is he digging around that heaping pile of WHIG lies?
Gyro, thanks for the link to the WaPo.
You probably already know this, but you close HTML tags link with a backslash / after the
cathy
Re: Bush as Decider.
This is true because the voices told him so.
cur/cent/TX:
“Of course, that will leave many problems to be solved.”
—–
droll.
Lisa #114… interesting point!
Now that you isolate that particular part of Hogan’s statement, it sure doesn’t look like this is necessarily all just about perjury and obstruction in his eyes. And moreover, it looks like there’s no question in his mind that the ratting out of Valerie Plame was a crime.
Which makes me then turn around and think again about fdlblog’s idea in post #34 above that perhaps Fitzgerald is actually planning to ask for an indictment of Rove on the underlying charge of ratting out Valerie Plame.
“Veddy innnnnnnterestink!”
Jonn Casper, I would guess in everyday cases rw cole is right but this is a case involving the pres so the prosecution have to tread very lightly. If a lawyer for Rove says he’d like another shot to explain himself in front of the grand jury, Fitzgerald can’t really say no.
Fascinating essay, Jane. My mind sometimes blurs when I try to remember just who said what to whom on what day back when the WH decided they had to slime Joe Wilson and close down his wife’s team and their activities.
Back during Fitz’s activities at the time of the end of the term of his first grand jury, the word was just beginning to creep out beyond the informed progressive blogosphere as to how magnificent this site – fdl rules!! – has been in keeping track of the elements of this case. FDL is now recognized by many important media outlets as a definitive source for information and comment about the case.
Now that Fitz is re-opening his offensive, how different do you see your role in this, Jane, given the much higher profile of this site? And the rest of us?
I confess that between thirteen years working in public safety, and having been through a couple civil case wringers myself, I detest some of he workings of the law, but I detest treachery more, and relish seeing FDL’s reason for being coming back to the fore.
For all of you who hang around on Sunday mornings — several weeks ago someone posted a link to a live cam on a pair of nesting eagles. Both eggs have tiny areas chipped away and they are due to hatch — http://www.infotecbusinesssystems.com/wildlife/
Ed*ard Teller — we love nothing more than covering Plame stuff but we can’t manufacture news about it, we have to wait until it cycles back around.
To the poignant “no underlying crime” wingnut whiners:
_____
ANNAPOLIS, Md. (AP) – The federal judge who jailed a former New York Times reporter for refusing to name her source during the CIA leak investigation defended his decision Friday…
…Hogan, who oversees grand juries, got involved in the CIA leak investigation when Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald sought to compel several reporters to reveal their sources and what they were told about Plame.
Fitzgerald tried to get evidence he needed elsewhere, Hogan said, describing the prosecutor as “dogged†and “one of the best I have seen. 
…Hogan, an appointee of President Reagan, said he rejected imposing a fine on Miller because he did not believe anything other than jail would get her to obey his order to testify. She spent 85 days behind bars before Libby gave her a waiver she thought was sufficient.
Miller wasn’t an innocent bystander, Hogan said. “She was an actor in the commission of a crime,†he said. “She was part of the transfer of information that was a crime.â€
The judge said he did not enjoy sending Miller to jail. But he said the law is clear: Reporters do not have a special privilege under the First Amendment to keep their sources secret, especially when a crime has been committed…
_____
“She was an actor in the commission of a crime,†he said. “She was part of the transfer of information that was a crime.â€
The caveat “alleged crime” is not even required. It is beyond dispute that a crime was committed by someone. A Reagan-appointee judge of this stature and long experience would not be cavalier in his choice of public words.
Perhaps we’ll eventually learn exactly who committed the crime. But, a crime was indeed committed, and then crimes of perjury to obstruct justice were then “allegedly” perpetrated to conceal it.
Someone is/are fixin’ to be Fitzfucked.
go Fitz! the man. my hero + total babe…hot, hot, hot.
harry, you may be right.
My take is that there has been a lot of communication between Luskin and Fitzgerald. I think Fitz told him, you will be getting a target letter and that’s why Rove went for a fifth visit.
Luskin told the Press that Rove had NOT received a target letter. Why would Luskin lie about something that is so knowable? In addition, Fitz has already deposed Luskin for the Vivica fiasco, so Luskin is on a very very short leash with Fitzgerald. It’s my understanding that Luskin could be disbarred about lying about something like a target letter.
Maybe someone can answer this.
Luskin claims that he knew in January, that Cooper consider Rove to be his source.
So why is he saying in October “if Matt Cooper is going to jail, he‘s not going to jail for Karl Rove”
JC- I’ve seen your hint about the pseudonym before. I have not figured out what it is. Can you drop a hint?
topu- October of year?
John Casper
I’m certain Luskin has already made endless bs claims starting with Rove wasn’t involved at all. The biggest part of this scandal is that it should have all come out before November 2004 and Luskin is just one of many helping the administration make it this far without all their Iraq WMD bs coming out.
John Casper,
“Predicting that Rove will be indicted is like “predicting†that the sun will come up. Everybody already agrees that there is a very, very, high likelihood that Rove will be indicted.”
Bingo. “Predicting” and weaving a “story” leading up to it in an attempt to attain credibility, garbage.
Here’s me ripping off billmon. :)
“One of the changes I made in our foreign policy was: let’s not coddle the tyrant in hopes that the status quo is OK,” he explained. “In other words, let’s not say tyranny is OK… in order to keep the price of oil down, for example.”
George W Bush
Interview with the Sunday Telegraph
April 23, 2006
http://individual.utoronto.ca/…..450349.jpg
“See, part of being a leader is: you can’t lead unless you know where you want to go. You can’t say ‘follow me’ and not have a destination.”
George W Bush
Interview with the Sunday Telegraph
April 23, 2006
Follow-on to my 132:
Perhaps the only out would be to now claim that The Decider Strutting Chief Leaks-at-a-Whim (or Cheney, who claims equivalent power) had authorized the release of Plame’s ID. Hence, it would not have been a “crime” once summarily declassified by The Decider or Dead-Eye.
That train left the station a LONG time ago, however. That latter-day excuse would be DOA, and would be a political Chernobyl anyway, irrespective of any putative Constitutionality (ignoring the obstruction-of-justice crosshairs it might arguably put on Strutting Chief himself).
Fitzfucked.
Valley Girl- The same year. Nine months later.
Bugger. Missed the last link off somehow.
http://www.visualfuturist.com/…..-china.jpg
Casper, Sorry I can barely use cut and paste at this place: click here
Since Rove is famous for knowing the precinct returns from the 1896 election, if he ever gets to court, “I forgot” ain’t gonna fly very far.
I would just like to say that chunks of fecal matter the size of locomotives are entering the Republican’s rotating device.
Almost a month ago, according to talkleft, Leopold said there’d be indictment(s) in about a month. Does anybody have anything specific where he was wrong?
John Casper:
I predict the sun shall come up, upon the morrow!
When it does, I shall eat breakfast! Possibly pancakes!
I further predict that Republicans will fornicate with hookers!
I predict Bush shall say something stupid and/or ungrammatical!
I predict some people shall be indicted for at least some of this crookedness!
topu- sorry, still not getting it can you give me the actual year 200x?
BobbyG #35,
“Maybe I’ll retire to Ajijic / Lake Chalapa area and re-learn my days-of-yore single zig-zap fat bomb roll.
;)”
LOL I’ve spent the last three days checking out the “Cozumel” message boards trying to find what’s open and what’s not, after Hurricane Wilma devastated the place. That’s a new “twist”, just kidding. I’m getting close, “El Cozumeleno” it looks like in a coupla weeks.
http://www.elcozumeleno.com/
otis 91,hm, if thats correct that he could indict him and still use him to squeal that answers my question. i just assumed one rove was indicted he wouldn’t be so motivated to gibe anything else up. we all thought he was going to get indicted along w/libby but at the last minute, fitz is waltzing over to bushes lawyers, could this be a way of putting the squeeze on and holding off the indictment for later. jason says fitz is” prepared” to indict. he’s was prepared before, if he doesn’t get any more out of rove, does he have enough to go after cheney?
I predict that Fitz will have been spotted at National (as many of us still like to call it, and duly she did) by FDLer mamayaya http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..nd-things/
I think it’s telling the way Leopold just scooped Murray Waas. He was waiting to see what Murray had, and now he’s got this bombshell out there. Of course it could still be Plame porn. :)
Waas -
“…In several hours of testimony, Rove was again asked how he learned three years ago that Plame worked for the CIA, and the circumstances of how he relayed that information to Cooper, according to people familiar with his testimony.
Rove also testified to the grand jury that when he told Cooper that Plame worked at the agency, he was only passing along unverified gossip.
In contrast, Cooper has testified that Rove told him in a phone conversation on July 11, 2003, that Plame worked for the CIA and played a role in having the agency select her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, to make a fact-finding trip to Niger in 2002…”
_____
“Rove…testified to the grand jury…that was only passing along unverified gossip.”
Yeah, of course, utterly circumspect, repsonsible thing for a close adivsor to the President to do — traffick in gossip about a CIA NOC employee? Maybe get someone valuable killed or professionally neutered?
Yeah, right, we fucking buy all that, and its propriety.
FitzFucked, Karl. Enjoy your just desserts, you prick.
Jane Hamsher says:
April 28th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
VG — Rove wouldn’t grant Cooper a waiver. Cooper had one foot in jail when Gold Bars said to the press that if Cooper was going to jail it wasn’t for Karl Rove. Cooper’s attorney took that to mean Rove was granting him a waiver and Cooper testified, avoiding jail, but I don’t think anyone believes that with Luskin’s statement Rove was actually offering Cooper a waiver. Cooper would be on Oz right about now if he had to rely on Rove.
———————————————————-
Yes, and Luskin subsequently bitched that Cooper had “burned” Rove. Let me track down the source.
Harry Shed or something like that was one he used at tnh. He made vile, physical threats against DHinMI, a tnh blogger under that name. Later, he came back and apologized as Jason Leopold. Jane, Christy and emptywheel would know other occurences, because they can match his IP address. IMO all three have shown tremendous patience with the guy, but not “outing” him. I have just been trying to follow what I think is their lead by being subtle which as you know is not my strong suit.
Every one in a while, someone will comment here about the great new Jason Leopold scoop, have we seen it? Whenever I see one of those, I get suspicious, if it is not an FDL handle that I am accustomed to. No biggee, if that’s all it is.
Sometimes, he gets stuff right. I just saw Pollyusa over at tnh saying she agreed with him on something. I have a lot of respect for Pollyusa.
Frank Probst- I finally figured out part of it. See # 86 and # 93
harry, check emptywheel’s “Reading Comprehension can be fun,” over at tnh.
Cozumel -
One hand, one zigzag paper. I was good (two papers was consider gauche, as well as using those little rolling thingys). Roll a fat bomb with the morning coffee. Maybe that’s how I should do “retirement” in Ajijic once they decrim. Take up the chronic again. LOL!
Ah, even better. The “burned” quote from a Byron York article:
http://www.nationalreview.com/…..121626.asp
http://www.nationalreview.com/…..121626.asp
Lawyer: Cooper “Burned†Karl Rove
Jane, re #131,
I didn’t express my thought very well.
I’m not pushing for the manufacture of news. I’m not pushing for anything. I was just wondering about how we feel here about the pressures on the blog of additional responsibility for not only being the best on this subject, but being increasingly recognized for being just that.
Luskin told the Press that Rove had NOT received a target letter.
I think if you go back and carefully read Luskin’s press release after Rove’s fifth appearance, you’ll notice that it actually says that Rove hadn’t received a target letter regarding the subject of that day’s testimony. The release is carefully crafted to make a casual reader think that Rove hasn’t received a target letter on any subject, but if you read it closely, you’ll see that it doesn’t rule out his receiving a target letter that refers to separate crimes that were the subjects of the other grand jury appearances, but not of the fifth one.
You can’t take anything at face value with these people.
Bobby G: (and hi to Coz) I was really impressed by my great-uncle’s occasional visits, and he was a weird one. He could roll a cig with one hand, and that was the hand that was missing a forefinger. And, BTW, I found out what “colitas” from the Eagles HC song means.
annie -
“…”Look at the Cooper e-mail,” Luskin continues. “Karl speaks to him on double super secret background…I don’t think that you can read that e-mail and conclude that what Karl was trying to do was to get Cooper to publish the name of Wilson’s wife.”
Nor, says Luskin, was Rove trying to “out” a covert CIA agent or “smear” her husband. “What Karl was trying to do, in a very short conversation initiated by Cooper on another subject, was to warn Time away from publishing things that were going to be established as false.”…”
How noble.
As me rural Alabama Pappy-in-Law would say, That Dog Jus’ Won’t Hunt.
Bobby G. You need to eat it, not smoke it. Many many times more special/effective/cost effective. Anybody wanting to know ask me how. :)
Valley Girl…
“On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair, warm smell of colitas rising up through the air.”
Wonderful part of the plant. “Little buds”.
:)
Wow, the Byron York thing. It really is going to be like Jane said about Cooper. I guess this article confirms it more than Leopold. Rove is getting indicted. Champagne time.
Completely off topic but I hope someone can help. Actually, I’m trying to figure out how to go to Yearly Kos so I can attend Jane and Christy’s panel and the FDL breakfast and meet other FDLers, so maybe you all will excuse my posting this here. I don’t know how or where to post a comment on Kos. I know many FDL readers visit Daily Kos. I am trying to print out the Yearly Kos information and all I’m getting is crap. Lines printed on top of one another, text too small to read, blank space where there should be text. Is there some obvious way to print a printer-friendly version that I am just missing, or is there some trick to doing so? Any help would be appreciated.
neurophius, maybe copy and paste into a word document?
Bobby G- well at least you coulda’ told me that before, when I was asking about the lyrics the other night. You are such a tease, babe.
Just posted at Needlenose:
No. 164 Oh yeah about half the time when I try to print a page, I get an error message saying Internet Explorer has to close, and I get kicked off the Internet. Do they have some kind of weird copyright protection system on Kos, or something?
harry -
Downed many a potent hash brownie back in the day.
Funny remembrance: One time, up in Seattle, ~1969, these two dickhead FBI agents showed up at my house, looking for info about two of my draft-dodging former bandmates. We were blitzed on some great hash we’d just gotten into. So, we’re all sitting around in my living room chatting it up with these Efrem Zimbalist Jr. types, trying to act straight, and one of my compadres in the mix was this long-haired dude Al from San Francisco, who’d just driven up with a packed TRUNKLOAD of primo hash, all nicely foil-wrapped, parked 30 fett away at the curb.
Clueless frigging 5-0 cats. LMAO!
new thread: Late night: “What was that about ‘no underlying crime.’”
BobbyG
It’s not “warm smell of coitus”? It’s “smell of colitas”? Are you sure? This isn’t more of that flamingo-bird-flu non-truthy nonsense of yours, is it?
bobbyg, anything and everything NRO is subject to bs in my book.
Ed*ard Teller — oh no I didn’t take it like that, I just meant that we do go up and down with the news cycle. Some times people think we get distracted by other things but really sometimes there’s just not a lot to cover, or it’s all happening in the courts with motions etc. and Christy is just going to be better at handling that than I am. But when it’s in full swing there’s plenty for both of us to go after and that is when we are happiest, no question.
jlr, I tried that, but it won’t let me highlight the text with my mouse, and when I hit Select All and try to print it on Word, I still get crap.
My read on York was that Rove was pissed that Cooper, newly assigned to the WH IIRC, did not understand the code, the lingo, the local jargon.
Double super secret vacation meant one thing to Rove – Cooper, new to the beat “burned” Rove by not sticking to the rules of the DC media game.
Valley Girl -
“babe”?
Am I now TWICE elevated to “babe” status? (zennurse the other day).
Yummie. This ol’ dawg is humbled.
cleter says:
April 28th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
BobbyG
It’s not “warm smell of coitus�
_____
Hmmmm…I seem to dimly remember that.
;)
Preview is my friend. Vacation obviously should have been “background”.
I apologize.
Late to the party, so this may have laready been covered.
What was with bow-tie Carlson saying over and over “no crime was committed” tonite, without disclosing his glaring conflict of interest?
Such disgraceful “reporting”. He and the “hot-shots” were a joke.
I say we make his life hell.
Urban Pirate, see my 132
Consider this one person’s effort to try and clear sand from my eyes. Are the following assumptions correct and accurate?
PlameGate now has so many ‘players’ that I’m creating acronyms as mental shortcuts: Rove, Et Al = Rove, Cheney, Bush, Libby + WHIG (Hughes, Conzales, Card…) + NSA (Condi, Bolton, Hadley, Feith, Wurmser…)
GJ1, GJ2… GJ5 = Grand Jury appearances 1, ,2, 3, 4, 5
—————-
(1.) Oct 03 = July 05: Assuming that reporters will never testify about sources in the Plame Affair, Rove Et Al claim that Admin ‘learned about Plame’s identity FROM the press.’ = T
(2.) Assuming: (2a.) that WH emails have been deleted irretrievably, and (2b.) that WH phone logs have been ’sanitized’, Rove Et Al believe all evidence to *prove* conspiracy and/or treason in Plame outng has been destroyed = T
(3.) Oct 03: Rove tells FBI that he did not ‘out” Plame = T
(4.) Feb 04: Rove tells GJ1 that “Novak told me” about Plame = T
(5.) Mar 04: Luskin (Rove’s atty) realizes, via a conversation with reporter V Novak, that Rove is in serious legal jeopardy = T
(6.) > Feb 04 – Oct 04: Luskin locates “missing” July 03 WH emails in effort to disguise Rove’s lies with The Appearance of Truthiness = T ** Assumption #2 REVERSED**
(7.) > July 05: Courts require news reporters to testify and divulge the sources who ‘outed’ Plame **Assumption #1 REVERSED**
(8.) Oct 05: Cooper, Miller, Novak, and other reporters implicate Rove Et Al members in Plame outing; this implies Rove Et Al conspiracy = T
(9.) Oct 05: Libby indicted for lying about events surrounding the Plame outing = T
(10.) Apr 06: Rove called before GJ for fifth appearance to try and unravel 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 = T
——
TO SUMMARIZE:
1. Rove thought he could lie and get away with it = T
2. Rove thought his lies would not be discovered = T
3. Rove lied to FBI = T
4. Rove lied to GJ1 = T
5. Rove’s lies came under suspicion = T
6. Rove’s lies were contradicted by evidence = T
7. Rove’s lies were exposed = T
8. Rove’s lies raised suspicions about other liars = T
9. Rove’s pal Libby was indicted for lying = T
10. Rove tried to lie his way out of his lies = T
Do I have the main “Rove thread” accurately? Anyone else here know if I’m correct…?
Don’t want to hijack a thread, but it seems we’re all trying to figure out the same puzzle and if anyone wants to confirm or contradict… I’d sure like to know whether I’m right on these points.
For what it’s worth, I am an attorney (civil not criminal) but I recently represented a party who was also involved in a Federal matter with criminal claims. He was called to a GJ as a witness and when he appeared, given a target letter at the door.
The indictment and arrest did not take place for 4 months. So a target letter can be served without an indictment following immediately. Fitz may have a habit of indicting right away, but at least in VA, it is obviously not required in Fed court. Given Roves’ so called demotion, he had to have had notice of his 5th appearance at the time it was announced, further at the time Fitz told Luskin that he wanted another GJ appearance, Luskin must have had “the talk” with Rove in which he has been told to get his financial affairs in order and get ready for the bottom to fall out. Even if it didn’t, it would be malpractice to not discuss this. I do defend attorneys who get sued and no defense atty would avoid the talk (some times called the hammer up against the head talk) to make sure they know the facts and can’t turn around and claim they never knew how bad it was. Given the spin, Luskin has got to be writing a letter after every press conference saying “yes I said….but as we discussed, it is more likely that….”
So ignore the spin, Rove has heard from Luskin to expect the worse.
troll
PJ-Comix -
Get lost with that shit. Go back to Yahoo boards.
Troll
PJ-Comix
Loser. You will tire and disappear. You have ZERO of substance to contribute here, and your “humor” is flatlined. This is not a Yahoo Board — your natural environment.
” The indictment and arrest did not take place for 4 months.”
thanks for the clarification pretzel
You’re gonna like the little celebratory snapshot I posted (be sure to read to the bottom of the article too):
click me
Whee!
None of this celebrating will happen in the remote chance that the drill Chicago Tom mentionned is not just a drill. Facsimile drills were performed on 9-11 and 7-7.
9/11 see video: http://www.lonelantern.org/rummy.html
7/7 see video: http://www.lonelantern.org/lon…..rills.html
Chicago Tom said…
AS A CHICAGO RESIDENT, AND WITH BUSH’S POPULARITY IN THE DUMPSTER, AND
REMEMBERING ALL THE “DRILLS†OF “HIJACKED PLANES†on 9/11 — koinky-dink?
THREE DAY DISASTER DRILL SET FOR CHICAGO NEXT WEEK.
I HOPE IT’S JUST A DRILL. My fellow chicagoans, duck and cover.
And this is GETTING NO COVERAGE in Chicago. All that media in Chicago looking the other way. Scares the shit out of me. Spread the word, maybe we can prevent the next 9/11, 5-2?
http://www.belleville.com/mld/…..445338.htm
Jane, I await your first detective novel. It will be a doozey.
(And I am being serious, not snide like Brady.)
Jane, please, please never let them bowdlerize you. I cannot live without,
“ I can see Fitzgerald wanting to give the grand jury a look at Rove. As Christy said this morning, it would probably become quickly apparent what an inveterate ratfucker he is.“
(*tsk tsk* … troll removed)
What role does Gannon play in all this? Anyone?
“Rove and his attorney, Robert Luskin, have also argued that it would have been foolhardy for Rove to lie, knowing that Cooper might someday testify against him, and that other evidence might surface showing that the two had talked about Plame.â€
First Rove “forgets” his conversation with Cooper. He didn’t lie, he just forgot. So he claimed.
Then, after his coversation with Cooper is exposed, he claims it couldn’t be a lie because HE KNEW “that Cooper might someday testify against him”. Therefore, he didn’t forget after all. He lied in attempting to cover up his comversation with Cooper. Then he lied a second time to cover up his lie.
If I have this straight, he’s caught in his own web of lies.
[This comment simply fleshes out my comment above at #67, for the record, and to give some idea of the numerous strands and complexities that are involved in every aspect of this investigation.]
On September 13, 2004, the grand jury issued a second set of subpoenas to Cooper and Time seeking testimony and documents relating to “conversations between Matthew Cooper and official source(s) prior to July 14, 2003, concerning in any way: former Ambassador Joseph Wilson; the 2002 trip by former Ambassador Wilson to Niger; Valerie Wilson Plame a/k/a Valerie Wilson a/k/a Valerie Plame (the wife of former Ambassador Wilson); and/or any affiliation between Valerie Wilson Plame and the CIA.”
Cooper and Time moved to quash these subpoenas and, on October 7, 2004, after briefing and a hearing, the district court denied their motions.
That is an excerpt from:
Http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/brief……resp.html
This second set of subpoenas is what was appealed to the Supreme Court by Matthew Cooper, without success. Thus these subpoenas are what eventually led, after the Supreme Court denied a hearing on the matter, to Cooper’s testimony on July 13, 2005 about his July 11, 2003 conversation with Karl Rove. [The first set of subpoenas which were also opposed by Cooper (and Russert) were complied with without appeal, after the District Court denied Cooper’s motion to quash on July 20, 2004, and the Court proceeded to hold Cooper in contempt on August 9, 2004, and Fitzgerald then agreed to narrow the boundaries of the subpoenas so as to protect confidential sources: thus, on August 23, 2004 Matthew Cooper testified about his contact(s) with Scooter Libby (who had released Cooper with a waiver sufficient to satisfy Cooper). Russert testified August 7th].
But Cooper’s August 23, 2004 testimony apparently alerted Fitzgerald and the grand jury for the first time to another confidential conversation Cooper had in 2003… Thus the follow-up set of subpoenas on 9/13/04 to Cooper and TIME which eventually led to Cooper’s July 13, 2005 testimony about his talk with Karl Rove.
Meanwhile, Karl Rove returned to the grand jury to testify about a ‘discovered’ July 11, 2003 email on October 14, 2004. [On October 13, 2004 Cooper was again held in contempt of court, for refusing to comply with a 10/7/04 court order enforcing his second set of subpoenas. On October 7 Judy Miller had likewise been held in contempt. Together they began their appeals.] This 7/11/03 email was ‘discovered’ between January, 2004 (or March) and October, 2004, according to Rove’s attorney Luskin. Luskin supposedly asked Rove to ask the “White House” to search for any such record of a conversation between Rove and Cooper (presumably whether already turned over via previous document subpoenas or not). [Is there any record of the date Rove made this request to the “White House” I wonder?]. Apparently, as Rove and Luskin must have deduced if not known, Fitzgerald did NOT already have this July 11, 2003 email as a result of earlier subpoenas, or the grand jury would have handled the questioning, and follow-up subpoena, of Cooper differently in August and September, 2004.
With the first round of Cooper’s subpoena resistance futile by August 23, 2004, Rove and Luskin decided not to chance it on the second September 13, 2004 round of Cooper subpoenas specifically targeted in the direction of Rove, and concocted their little email scenario between August and early October, seems to me. They conveniently brought the hidden email to light for Special Counsel Fitzgerald (presumably) just prior to the October 7, 2004 D.C. District Court ’round one’ loss for Cooper in his attempt to avoid testifying about his second source’s conversation [a conversation in confidence to which Cooper continued to believe he was bound absent a clear and specific waiver from Rove about that conversation; this is the 7/11/03 “double super secret background” conversation which of course Rove claims he innocently forgot all about but yet only managed to “waive” for Cooper the day Cooper faced incarceration in July, 2005 — and thanks then only to the loose lips of Attorney Luskin and the smart and swift lawyering of Cooper’s attorney].
And not until October, 2005, a year after Rove’s sudden confession and production of evidence about his 7/11/03 “forgotten” talk with Matthew Cooper, did a further flourish get produced for the Rove story in the form of Viveca Novak. Novak, claims Luskin, was supposedly the REAL reason the hidden email was “found” months after her involvement, rather than, and instead of, the ongoing and looming further verdicts of the Judicial Branch which, in late summer and early fall, 2004, were slowly but surely forcing the truth out into the light…
Rover versus Cooper?
Only in terms of testimony.
Judge Hogan, quoted in a recent post here on firedoglake, asserted that Judith Iscariot Miller was equally guilty of a crime as was her source.
I disagree that Matthew Cooper isn’t equally in that same category. He certainly withheld his knowledge of the crime froom Fitz.
But then, he’s funny. He has a standup comedy routine. If a man has hobbies…. hey! — maybe we’ll let off the next bad actor because he has model trains in his basement!!
That’s a hobby…
Richard D. Felsing
One correction to the record, regarding my comment #199 above:
Karl Rove returned to the grand jury to testify about a ‘discovered’ July 11, 2003 email on October 15th, 2004. [Eight days after Cooper’s motion to quash his second set of subpoenas was denied by the D.C. District Court on October 7, 2004.]
It was in October, 2005 that Rove testified on the 14th — rather than in October, 2004 as I mistakenly stated in my previous comment.