One of the many fine lessons we learn from our upstanding wingnut betters is that perjury, obstruction of justice and false statement are only crimes if they are being committed by Bill Clinton's cock. Unless there is an underlying crime, the law'n'order brigade think it is perfectly okay to disregard the law and say any such shit as might invade your head at the moment.
But let us not get lost in the dark forest of wingnut talking points (or perhaps more aptly the "toothpick village.") Let's take a look at the words of Judge Thomas Hogan, appointed by St. Ronald Reagan, as he looks back on the decision he made to compel testimony from Judith Miller and Matt Cooper:
"Blood was spreading in the water," Hogan said. "The sharks were gathering. It's typical Washington politics, except that this involved the commission of a crime."While the White House sought to deny Wilson's accusations, the identity of his wife -- CIA officer Valerie Plame -- was leaked to reporters, apparently in violation of a law designed to protect covert operatives.
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, 55, Vice President Cheney's former top aide, has been charged with perjury and obstruction of justice for lying to FBI agents and a federal grand jury about when he learned of Plame's identity and when he subsequently discussed it to reporters.
Hogan, who oversees grand juries, got involved in the CIA leak investigation when Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald sought to compel several reporters to reveal their sources and what they were told about Plame.
Fitzgerald tried to get evidence he needed elsewhere, Hogan said, describing the prosecutor as "dogged" and "one of the best I have seen."
Only Miller, then working for the Times, and Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper refused to cooperate with Fitzgerald, saying they did not believe that the waivers of their confidentiality agreements with sources were granted voluntarily.
Eventually, Cooper's source -- White House adviser Karl Rove -- provided a waiver that satisfied the reporter. But Miller wasn't, and she refused to name her source, who turned out to be Libby.
Hogan, an appointee of President Reagan, said he rejected imposing a fine on Miller because he did not believe anything other than jail would get her to obey his order to testify. She spent 85 days behind bars before Libby gave her a waiver she thought was sufficient.
Miller wasn't an innocent bystander, Hogan said. "She was an actor in the commission of a crime," he said. "She was part of the transfer of information that was a crime."
The judge said he did not enjoy sending Miller to jail. But he said the law is clear: Reporters do not have a special privilege under the First Amendment to keep their sources secret, especially when a crime has been committed.
I'm going to take a perilous leap here and say Judge Hogan believes there was an underlying crime committed.
Remind me what the underlying crime in Whitewater was? I must have a very bad memory.
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Fitz.
Holy Cow!
Remind me what the underlying crime in Whitewater was? I must have a very bad memory.
Being a Democratic president. Duh.
A perilous leap indeeed.
All Fitz, all the time.
See! I can’t form a thought till I can bounce off comments.
But seeing that penis head again threw me off.
What the hell is that thing on his head? Is it some sort of marital aid? Is this young Republican preparing to have coitus with a hooker? The Republicans like that, you know. The hookers.
prefer to lurk but that first paragraph ranks as one of the best ever…
Goodness gracious, that picture gave me the heebie jeebies!
Jane launches a bolshoi-seeking missile and blows the Goopers out of the night sky!
Swopa got EPU’d.
“From the Department of Reverse Psychology”
Yeah, Jane. Yep. I called this one in the last thread.
Should be frigging obvious to all but the serious Kool-aid drinkers by this time.
I’m not a lawyer, but can a cock actualy commit perjury? How exactly would…never mind.
Of course there was an underlying crime. Tenet, as lame as his support for Bush was, wouldn’t have made the complaint which initiated all of this had there not been an “underlying crime.” Plame’s network was compromised and was probably subsequently rolled right up. That is a substantial crime, on a par with the Rosenbergs, as far as I’m concerned.
Hmm..didn’t Kay Bailey Huthinson claim that perjury was only a “technicality” when Libby got indicted, but was ready to put Clinton in Alcatraz for perjury. These guys can bend light as well as the law - explains the whole NSA eavesdropping thing also.
The underlying crime in Whitewater had to do with whether or not the Clintons did anything illegal while they were losing money on a land deal.
The Rethugs have certainly cocked up everything.
EPU’d, but def On topic
What was with bow-tie Carlson saying over and over “no crime was committed†tonite, without disclosing his glaring conflict of interest?
Such disgraceful “reportingâ€. He and the “hot-shots†were a joke.
I say we make his life hell.
Irony is a cruel thing. Not as cruel as being forced to wear a giant penis on your head in front of a nationwide television audience, but cruel nonetheless.
Bobby G.
I’m working in England right now (almost 6AM here) and I’ve got some amazing American stuff called Cinderella. I googled it and it’s just like they say. God bless the global village.
From the last thread:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....ment-83725
Oh, Urban Pirate. don’t you think actually BEING Tucker Carlson is hell enough?
My big question: Do we think Fitz is just going to indict Rove for perjury/obstruction, or is he going to throw out a whole bunch of conspiracy charges, too? Underlying crime, indeed.
That thing on his head is supposed to be an elephant’s trunk, I think. Looks like a Republican frat party. What threw me is that photo of a pig in the upper left-hand corner of the page. When I first glanced at it, I saw only the nostrils and my brain, such as it is, “saw” eyes instead. It took me some seconds to re-construct the picture into a pig.
Once again, I’ve spent a few hours reading the day’s threads and comments. What a bonanza this week! Thank you, all–Christy, Jane, and everyone who contributed.
harry -
Enjoy.
I vacationed in UK and France in 2004 (Saw Lance win le Tour #6 in Paris). I see that big Virgin 747 goin’ outa here every afternoon from Vegas to Gatwick (my office is close to McCarran). Want to go jump back on it.
BobbyG — yes you did. Thanks much.
Cujo359
I don’t think he’s being forced. He seems to be rather enjoying the giant penis.
What should be a crime - but I can’t find a statute - is the knowing mispresentation of facts by a rep. of the USG. There would be the intel sources and methods exception, but that should be it.
Doesn’t seem like too much to ask of the congresscritters.
dana @ 9:43 pm (#24) - I suspect it’s from the Republican convention - note the balloons in the upper right corner. It just looks like the guy’s wearing a penis on his head because that’s what we expect him to be wearing. It’s just another example of how our preconceptions affect what we observe.
tryggth says:
April 28th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
What should be a crime - but I can’t find a statute - is the knowing mispresentation of facts by a rep. of the USG.
_____
I forget the exact Patriot Act section (501 et seq?), but knowingly misrepresenting facts as they pertain to anything contrued as part of the “war on terrah” is a crime thereunder.
The juxtaposition of that photograph and Jane’s “are only crimes if they are being committed by Bill Clinton’s cock” made me spit beer onto my cell phone. I love FDL so much.
So, ah, just got in and I am a little sleepy. But, it sure looks like Byron York is letting the faithful know that Karl “Rasputin” Rove is in trouble and he is prepping them for the fall.
Is that about right?
-GSD
Ah, the balloons. Thanks, cujo359. Makes those cheesehead hats (which only tourists wear) in WI look tasteful (word choice for punaise).
BobbyG @ 30 -
The irony would be delicious.
John Casper, if you’re still around - I was able to post a link to Jane’s letter to Howie Kurtz on the WaPo blog. Don’t know why it didn’t work earlier.
Why hasn’t anyone said “dickhead” yet?
dickhead
Valley Girl @ 9:55 pm (#36) - See my comment #29.
Or, considering the ears, “flying dickhead”?
tryggth says:
April 28th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
BobbyG @ 30 -
The irony would be delicious.
_____
Yes, indeed. I recall reading that entire section once.
OK, found it:
“Chapter 97 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:…”
801(a)(7) “[Whoever willfully]… conveys or causes to be conveyed false information, knowing the information to be false, concerning an attempt or alleged attempt being made or to be made, to do any act which would be a crime prohibited by this subsection…”
Cleter, I mean WTF? Someone needs to smack his smirk right off his face.
Him, Noron, and that Halloway girl, and Scarborough cackling like this is all a joke.
Joe was the only one taking it somewhat seriously. The other 3? Holy hell, how they got jobs is beyond me. Idiots.
And this right after H. Dean was on, and they just crush everything he tried it get across. I was (am) livid.
What am I missing in this part of the world? Anything funny happen today? I could use a laugh. I see Jane’s being demure once again. :)
*btw, I’m not a grumpy old f*ck, I just play one on FDL.
Cujo- yes, I saw that, but you didn’t actually come right out with it.
thanks, dana.
Leopold is saying next week, when other published reports say Luskin was told nothing for at least 10 days - those don’t reconcile. Leopold was also indicating meetings LAST week with the GJ, but although he and Blumenthal mentioned them, it doesn’t seem as if they took place - unless they were so secret no on else could find out about them.
Some of the substance of what he has is probably correct, but so far the details have been a bit spongey. Whatever they do with Rove, good luck with it is all I can say. Via the Libby filings, the case has already walked back the NIE leaking (I don’t buy that it is declasssificaiton for all the old reasons) to the President, specifically. Expecting more than that - I think we are so scandal fatigued people forget what a shocker that one was - is expecting a lot. It would be nice, but really a lot has already been handed over on a siler platter. GWB authorized selective dissemeintation of classified information to pre-selected media stenographers to skew the reasons for war. Not a nice man.
Valley Girl @ 10:01 pm (#42) - And rob the audience of that “Ahah!” moment?
How do you get that angle for that picture?
My my, that hat was made for Rush’s rethug gang sign, eh? Calling Dr. Ruth!
JC, you were very close to the name you were trying to recall in last thread. It was Harry Shep.
Modest proposal: Out with the phrase “…outed Valerie Plame.â€
“Outed†sounds prankish. “Outed†sounds like something within the bounds of hardball politics. “Outed†is doing Barb Comstock’s work for her.
We need to start using language that matches the severity of the crime.
“Valerie Plame was betrayed to the nation’s enemies.â€
Or “This administration passed secrets to the terrorists.†That’s what the Repubs would be screaming if the situation were reversed.
Out with “outed.†In with “betrayed.â€
Thanks for the reference. Will look at it in the morning to see what is in scope. But am fading…
Thanks FDL and pups for your energy and diligence. Rover is going down. Shuster didn’t say “tone of the questions”, he said Rover was surprised by the questions. Big stuff coming down…
So off to sleep to dream of the answer to the question troubling Cheney: “If they could bury those Abramoff pictures, why could they bury the one of me sleeping?” Sort of imagine it as a “thought bubble” in the picture of him sleeping.
Mary- is that a rhetorical question?
check this out from the last thread, WAY cool:
_____
Pretzel Boy Must Go says:
April 28th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
For what it’s worth, I am an attorney (civil not criminal) but I recently represented a party who was also involved in a Federal matter with criminal claims. He was called to a GJ as a witness and when he appeared, given a target letter at the door.
The indictment and arrest did not take place for 4 months. So a target letter can be served without an indictment following immediately. Fitz may have a habit of indicting right away, but at least in VA, it is obviously not required in Fed court. Given Roves’ so called demotion, he had to have had notice of his 5th appearance at the time it was announced, further at the time Fitz told Luskin that he wanted another GJ appearance, Luskin must have had “the talk†with Rove in which he has been told to get his financial affairs in order and get ready for the bottom to fall out. Even if it didn’t, it would be malpractice to not discuss this. I do defend attorneys who get sued and no defense atty would avoid the talk (some times called the hammer up against the head talk) to make sure they know the facts and can’t turn around and claim they never knew how bad it was. Given the spin, Luskin has got to be writing a letter after every press conference saying “yes I said….but as we discussed, it is more likely that….â€
So ignore the spin, Rove has heard from Luskin to expect the worse.
_____
YES! Thank you. I had to share that with the tribe.
Iowa, you’re probably right.
The Pugs are just sooooo cute w/ words. Labels and branding are key to “framing” I guess. I have to admit, it’s hard to think like a scheming dickwad.
p.s. if not- kneepads?
Iowa Bored @ 10:04 pm (#47) - I’m of an age where “outed” sounds like more than a prank. “Betrayed” might be a better term, but “outed” has some serious meaning for some folks - like your family doesn’t speak to you and you get harassed or worse.
I hardly need to say it again, but Fitzgerald notes somewhere in one of his filings that the crime of outing a CIA agent did occur. However, either he lacks enough information to establish who is responsible for the actual leak, or for legal reasons he can’t prosecute the person actually responsible for the underlying crime (i.e, Mr. Fraudulent), or else he is worried that the AG will effectively shut down his case if he gets involved with areas where the government can claim the prosecution can’t continue because of security concerns. This last point is a real possibility, for Judge Walton has apparently sided with the government before on cases involving government secrecy.
If Fitz limits his charges to the coverup, however, the security issues can be sidestepped.
The picture of Elephant boy reminds me of that Mary Tyler Moore show where Chuckles the Clown, dressed as a giant gobber peanut, is accidently killed by a rogue elephant who tried to ’shuck’ him. I never laughed so hard when someone at the funeral eulogized Chuckles by saying, “A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer in your pants.”
I guess Fitz is going to provide Rovesputin with “a little seltzer in his pants.”
Well, at least sleeves-rolled-up, on-the-scene Bush assured Brian Williams this morning on NBC/Today that New Orleans would be “ready in time for the 100 year flood plain.” So, at least there’s some good news.
;)
Frigging moron.
Shez, thank you in 46.
Another day, another Republican with a fetid cadaver of corruption unearthed from the under the statehouse floorboards.
Missouri’s Matt “Smoke-a” Blunt may have some esplainin’ to do.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/.....455281.htm
Given the above discussions (which occurred while I was writing my comment):
Or perhaps instead of “outed,” I should have said “treasonously revealed the name of a covert agent.”
OK, Shez in 47, thanks. Sorry about that.
Hogan’s Heroes
“couldn’t”
See what I mean about fading? Nite
Iowa Bored,
Betrayed Valarie Plame sounds like a crime, not a sexual expose’. Good Point.
Austin Powers III (?):
“m-m-mm-m-mmm-mo-moh-m-mm-m-mo-mole”
vs
“d-dd-d-i-di-dickhead”
Interesting OT-
MIAMI (MSNBC)- Rumors of immigration roundups have prompted thousands of illegal immigrants to stay home this week and are making some afraid to participate in a national immigration protest planned for Monday.
Though federal immigration officials said they were unfounded, rumors of random sweeps were rampant from coast to coast Friday, prompting thousands of immigrants to stay home from work, take their children out of school and avoid church.
The absences caused the rumors to build, as some thought their missing friends and co-workers had been arrested. Construction and agriculture were among the industries most affected…
_____
We estimate that at LEAST 1/4th of our construction workforce here in Vegas are illegals.
Dunno. If MX decrims possession, I may cash out and buy down in Ajijic. Maybe open a winery, learn Spanish. And, save a little plot out back…
;)
Oops, Cabernet typo…
Cujo in 35, thanks very much for trying. Maybe it’s just full.
“Howard Kurtz will be online Monday, May 1, at noon ET to discuss the press and his latest columns,” so I’ll ask Howie then. I am positive he won’t respond.
Umm, wasn’t the underlying crime of Whitewater that thing with the intern smoking some presidential pole? or was that something else?
I can’t remember either…
BobbyG @ 10:14 pm (#57) - “ready in time for the 100 year flood plain.â€
Then the flight’s cancelled and you have to wait around until the next 100 year flood plain to O’Hare, which inevitably arrives after your connection has taken off. Fat lot of good that will do us!
Cujo359 -
My jaw dropped when he said that. What an IDIOT.
Yeah, I know, we should be used to it by now. President Laughingstock.
Agggg.g.g.g.g.hhhhh!!!!!
My big question: Do we think Fitz is just going to indict Rove for perjury/obstruction, or is he going to throw out a whole bunch of conspiracy charges, too? Underlying crime, indeed.
off the wall prediction —- Fitz isn’t going to indict Rove next —- he’s going after whoever was responsible for the “missing emails” next (probably, Andy Card).
My guess is that the case against Card is rock solid — and that Card will flip on Rove and Cheney the minute he gets indicted…..
Jane - In case it’s not already been pointed out, disgusting troll, last thread, #188 by my count.
Bobby G., I’m not sure I see a typo. Was is the flood plain part? I assumed that this was an actual quote from Bush. Flood plain vs. flood plan?
I love that prediction #72–it makes perfect sense to me!
John Casper @ 10:22 pm (#68) - There’s a new blog page at WaPo. It’s at:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com.....nline.html
I also try to update the new blog page addresses in the comments at openlettertothewashingtonpost.blogspot.com.
Having just gotten home from a fabulous night of Art Gallery slumming —
Is Karl Rove a famous person or something? Is he in trouble?
Seriously — imo, Team Fitz is taking the next week or two to sort out just how much rope they have been given, by Mr Rove’s false and misleading testimony — with the underlying crime as a remainder, poised to put the bite on all of the other co-conspirators . . .
paul lukasiak @ 10:28 pm (#72) - Indicting Card sounds plausible (or whoever made the e-mail disappear), but why not Rove at the same time?
JWR- BobbyG took up the cudgels.
Valley Girl, mon Cherie -
OK, too much wine. I misread my own post. LOL!
Yeah. Bush said NOLA would be “ready for the 100 year flood plain”. Whata dope. He meant “100 year flood” and he did re-state that. But, just an indication of his cognitive lameness.
Q: Why do they tape Bush’s Harvard MBA diploma inside the windshield of the Prez Limo?
A: So he can park in the handicapped spaces when out whoring for GOP cash.
Bobby “the Babe” G,
“ready in time for the 100 year flood plain.†I’m glad I wasn’t the only one today that shot the TV a strange look at that nonsense. I so want to send Bush to look for 100 yards of flight line. ;)
but there was an underlying crime with the Clintons, the looting of the madison guarantee, which was a part of a looting every bit as comprehensive as henry the 8th when he got his hands on monastery land. It’s not that Bill and Hillary were lynchpins or kingpins, they were bit players as was Neil Bush. That the scandal was wide enough to enter the whitehousehold for the past 18 years, and could stay for possibly another 10, that gives some idea of how pervasive this private acquisition of previously public assets was. What the netroots must bring into perspective is that the republicans did not create a culture of corruption, they simply took it over from the democrats. Wall Street marionettes have joined the worst aspects of radical republican puritanism and the most venal aspects of Jim Crow to pose a real threat to our democracy, but can the democratic party break with the hold that Wall Street has established on its leaders. I for one will not let Bill Clinton off the hook for Whitewatter unless and until he addresses the fact that the savings and loans, once the safe haven of funding for housing for all americans, were systematically looted by the financial establishment, with the aid of politicians like him.
Iowa Bored 48
“Valerie Plame was betrayed to the nation’s enemies.â€
indeed, good premise.
Shez-
OK, so I wasn’t just trippin’. You heard it too.
LOL! We are ruled by a MORON!
(’babe’ - ol’ dawg be flattered)
BobbyG 67
Oops, Cabernet typo…
Shiraz sure can be
thanks for explaining, BobbyG. I didn’t hear his Bushesty today, and didn’t understand what he meant to say. Maybe he’s ending all his sentences now with “plain.”
VG - I’m sure we are thinking the same thoughts.
Someone gave the shoeshine man a camera. ? *g*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“ready in time for the 100 yr. floodplain” say huh? Do those rubberbands you wear on your wrist and snap whenever you want to curse and skip from assault direct to mayhem - work?
If Gonzales and Bush and Cheney as your bosses with their policies, wisdom, and morals, don’t make you quit your job - what would?
Granted, you might have to give back your elephant trunk hat, but, as Dr Rice would say: would you really want to wear your elephant hat into a torture session?
She has that pithy insight that can only be commented upon, never duplicated. Having a hatcheck outside interrogation rooms has greatly truncated the sessions. A grateful nations trumpets you, Dr. Rice.
paul lukasiak 72
My guess is that the case against Card is rock solid — and that Card will flip on Rove and Cheney the minute he gets indicted…..
works for me
Mush, Mush in the Bush.
Musharraf says: “I ain’t no steenkin’ poodle.”
(Snip)
Newspapers have carried critical pieces on U.S. foreign policy in Pakistan and one has a “Mush & Bush” column lampooning the two leaders’ relationship
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/pakistan_musharraf_dc
-GSD
arkieology -
That’s essentially the generalized Nader rant.
But, Nader begat us Bush. The danger of that cannot be overstated.
p. lukasiak — I am so hoping you are right.
I stand by my prediction that it is Card and Rove, a two-fer for round two.
Nite all.
But, before I sign off
punaise ain’t no Tom Cruise, but “Top Pun”??
and, Babe, sleep well.
Punaise
If Rove ever confesses his guilt, it will be “Admission Accomplished” for Fitz.
OT-
Eagles QB responds to press questions about Rx Limbaugh’s arrest today:
http://www.bgladd.com/Bush_Mal.....mbaugh.jpg
;)
VG - ain’t no Tom Cruise
I’ll take that as a compliment
(unless I jumped the snark?)
que syrah, syrah
p. lukasiak, I’m hoping you are right too. Seeing how Fitz likes second sources and that Hadley was knee knockin’ so hard before Libby’s big day he practically needed a walker, it would be sweeeet if both Hadley and Card have flipped.
y’all are great. LOL!
FDL rules!
‘night.
neuro 93 - Temperature’s Rising in Room 222
yo BobbyG: back to CSNY - Helplessly Hoping - best harmony ever?
have a good one
Hmmm…I wuz just lookin’ at that elephant headgear pic again. Hmmmm…
I COULD give that dude a seamless Photoshop appendage of a different sort…hmmmm…Long Dong Silver….
just a transient thought.
‘night. Really.
cujo asked
paul lukasiak @ 10:28 pm (#72) - Indicting Card sounds plausible (or whoever made the e-mail disappear), but why not Rove at the same time?
…..just because :)
actually, because FitzG likes to ensure that each of his indictments is as solid as possible…. and I have the feeling that there is still more for Fitz to learn about Karl, and that Card is the key….
BobbyG - He is a SuperMoron. Did you miss the whole discussion on an earlier thread today about Moronometrics and Moronometers (remember, they’re logorhythmic).
Chimpy has the highest readings ever recorded - a full 10. Since the inventors of the moronometer didn’t believe it was humanly possible to score higher than a ten, that is where they ended the scale. It may be that Chimpy’s moronometric readings are actually higher, so they are recalibrating the moronometers accordingly. We should be able to have them in place early next week. Lot’s of side bets, the under/over is 12 *G*
punaise says:
April 28th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
yo BobbyG: back to CSNY - Helplessly Hoping - best harmony ever?
_____
OK, I’m tryin’ to go crash.
That’s in my acoustic “book.” I do that song. Love it. My acoustic set is fat with CSN&Y, Eagles, Loggins, Fogelberg, John Prine, James Taylor, etc.
Tune I wrote for my wife ~30 years ago, home demo (one of many):
http://www.bgladd.com/tunes/wr.....ve_you.mp3
What does it say about a group of criminals that includes a war hero congressman,, that gets caught in a series of scams and the war hero is the only one locked up? Not just locked up, but hurry the fuck and locked up….. Think of all the scandals that have occured since this one broke….. Any one else in jail yet? I just think there must be a good reason to wisk the Dukestir off to his country club Jail? This whole sex angle is somehow the key?
p. lukasiak 105 — I agree. He’s a slow hand.
OT — I just put up our FDL Book Club sidebar — we have Markos & Jerome, Rick Perlstein and Glenn Greenwald all joining us for discussions of their books in the upcoming weeks.
I am so excited. I’ll post about it tomorrow but this is very, very cool.
I guess what you hope for or expect goes to your theory of the case, doesn’t it? I don’t really have any strong leanings on that - but it makes a big difference.
Was there an an underyling scheme to simply discredit Joe Wilson (not a criminal undertaking necessarily, depending on facts/circumstances, although it could be tortious - outside prosecutor’s mandate - even if not criminal)? Or was there more going on? Rice and Fleischer, while sleazy, could have been involved in a lot of pointing and clue dropping to journalists and not technically have been doing anything illegal. If they were truthful (Rice never did testify, did she?) in discussions in the aftermath - they could be sleazy on this, and even possibly guilty on other information leaks or activities not within the grant to the Spec. Prosecutor, an be in a good position to walk.
If, at the same time, were there other schemes involving other possible bad acts (along the lines of the NIE leak - that are, under Walton’s order, outside the scope of the mandate, but still might be things that could be brought in to show evidence of intent, state of mind, facts of surrounding circumstances, etc. ) and if so who is involved in them? If those people don’t have a relationship to the betrayal of Plame and/or the follow up obstructions, etc. you might have some very unsavory things that could come out about them, but not necessarily criminal matters the Spec Pros could pursue.
Once you have things come to a head with the Novak story and investigation, then you begin to have issues related to obstruction and perjury and possibly conspiracy. I guess that if the conspiracy were primarily to cover up other matters (using the NIE leak as an example) that are outside the scope of the Spec Prosecutor’s mandate, but that also had a secondary or peripheral consequence of interfering with the Plame investigation, then that could come in as well.?
So who do you think did what, when and where, and who may have misspoke to whom and why If you think Card had something to do with the emails - alone? An assist? Did he “just happen” to have the time, or did Gonzales actually conspire with him as to the emails? If so, why? What did the two of them already know was in the emails? Neither of them were WHIG were they?
Did Gonzasles not think he could simply claim privilege or classification and refuse to make them available? Did they not think about it bc they thought that Ashcroft would be handling and it would be fine?
Did Cheney have any role with respect to the emails? Who would have equal access to both the President’s and VPs offices (Card?) to get at the emails and what would he need? Passords? Is everyone accounted for in the VP’s office for the night of the deletes?
I don’t have any good speculation. But the theory of how you think the picture pieces go together impacts who you see as the next target. Speaking of which, is that a target over the elephant hat/head guy? Was Cheney there?
I would have voted for Under the Volcano or Invisible Man.
Or any other book I’ve already read. I hate homework. Are there Cliff Notes?
logorhythmiclogarithmic.No more phonetics for me.
John in Sacramento, Leslie in CA, you guys awake? I’m staying at the Sheraton,across the street from the convention center. Just got back from the Angelides party and we’ve been asked to be whips for him tomorrow. John, where are you working? Leslie, are you near the convention center? I’ll check back in the morning and try to catch up with you guys.
my question is: can Bush still pardon Rove or Libby or whoever else the Fitzter nails if Bush himself resigns or is impeached? What about Cheney? Can he pardon anyone or is it just the prez?
I’m really wanting to see Rove wear an orange suit, eat watery cabbage and reconstituted potatoes and have to pee in front of the guards.
Jane (and everyone else) - Check out this link to a Newsday story (via Rawstory), on a talk by Judge Hogan re: Scooter, Miller, et al.
Tres interesting.
http://www.newsday.com/news/po.....-headlines
BobbyG - nice tune
ztiF, all
EPU — Have a look upstairs ;)
spiderpaws:
The president can pardon anybody, as long as he is still in office. He could be impeached by the House, but still be in office unless/until the Senate convicted him, and could pardon people during that interim. If Bush is impeached and removed from office, and Cheney then becomes president, he could pardon Bush or anyone else he wanted to. I think we need a new set of rules.
Yeah - I could do the actual “research” of reading the entire article, it would be helpful for my omniscience. Nah ;)
ALthough to my credit I said back then she was a part of the crime, not a “journalist.”
OK, next time I’ll read the whole thing. :(
I come at the Plame exposure from a different angle. She was a NOC for the CIA working under cover through Brewster Jennings & Associates.
From the beginning of the invasion, I kept waiting for them to suddenly find all those WMD’s hidden in Iraq. I was sure they were shipping the shit over there and planting it. It would eventualy be found to be TOO new to be the actual WMD’s of Saddam but by then it would of justified everything.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/4939
Yes Joe Wilson was putting TOO much truth out there and he had SUCH credibility internationally that it would be hard to distredit it but if Plames brass plate company (Spys Incoporated) shut down the shippment of chemicals destined for the Iraq plant job, I think they would try anything to shut the whole thing down.
I’m at the state Dem convention here in sunny cal. Got my picture taken with Francine Busby (gosh, she looks like my fourth grade teacher!) and Nancy Pelosi. I feel like a schoolgirl meeting the beatles or something. Also met Gavin Newsome (wowsa, what a hunk!) just before dinner.
Oh EPU we love you just the way you are.
Katy: Interesting take, I was sure myself that they would plant WMD in Iraq to CTA. To this day I still wonder why these thugs didn’t do it. Your take on it is very plausable.
Cool, ’cause I wasn’t going to read it all anyway; Omniscience takes less time ;-)
And with that, g’night.