
I’m trying to wade through the mountain of articles that Rove’s Grand Jury appearance has generated since yesterday, but the same piece of spin keeps popping up article after article — unchallenged and unquestioned by any of the reporters who have dutifully copied down the dulcet tones of Gold Bars Luskin and committed them to paper. Here is just one example from the LATimes:
Robert D. Luskin, Rove’s lawyer, said Wednesday that Fitzgerald had made no decision on whether to bring charges against Rove.
Some legal experts said the timing and circumstances of Rove’s latest testimony, which Luskin said was given "voluntarily and unconditionally," suggested that an indictment might not be imminent and that the development could be viewed as positive for Rove.
The thing about being a prosecutor working with a grand jury is this: as a prosecutor, you present information to the grand jury, you recommend particular charges for particular people — but you are not the person who indicts. The members of the grand jury do that — and it would be incredibly presumptuous, not to mention potentially rude and irritating to the grand jury, for a prosecutor to just step out and say he was going to indict someone when that is the job of the jurors themselves.
You never, ever do this, unless you are a moron or a press hog — and Patrick Fitzgerald does not strike me as either, frankly.
You know when you decide that someone is going to be indicted? As you are handed the true bill from the foreperson of the grand jury and you are about to ink off on the prosecutor’s signature line along with the presiding judge. Any speculation about it beforehand is irrelevent.
Sure, you can provide a heads up to opposing counsel (if there is one) that you are going to request an indictment from the jury for a particular client — but considering the loose lips, all PR alla time, strategy that Gold Bars Luskin has employed in defending his client thus far — would you be rushing to the phone to do him any favors? (It’s not a requirement, its a courtesy call, just so you all know.)
I covered the general workings of a grand jury here, and refined the analysis further here, in case anyone needs a refresher.
As to the second paragraph, well no one really knows what Fitzgerald has in his pockets or what he and his team are thinking except him and his team. They are not the leaky sieve that the Starr investigation was (thank goodness, because that was an embarassment to prosecutors — you aren’t a PR operation, you are there to do the people’s business.). It bears repeating over and over that every piece of information we are hearing (with the exception of some of Murray Waas’ pieces, which have that ring of "not from Luskin" to them) are all coming from the Libby, Rove and/or their cronies spin meister machinery. (I’m looking at you, Babs. Nice throw to Byron York yesterday, albeit not very convincing.)
If I were a betting woman, I’d put my money on Ben Ginsberg being one of the "legal experts" referred to in the second paragraph, since he was also on the talking head circuit yesterday to explain away any questions that Rove might be feeling some heat. Yes, my friends, the Wurlitzer is being revved up again — which only makes me wonder how much more there may be to come, or why Rove has to try so hard to make people look the other way.
I’m going back to my reading now, but I just had to get that off my chest. Uncritical repeating of spin is a personal peeve of mine, and the fact that this particular bit of spin is making the rounds — again — is particularly irritating. Now, on to more coffee, more spin, and more speculation…
Related posts:
- Karl Rove: That’s Why They Call It a Limited Hang-Out
- Executive Privilege and the Cheney Interview Documents
- Connecting The Eyeliner Dots On the Rove Role In DOJ Firings?
- BREAKING: Supreme Court Reverses Ricci in 5-4 Decision; Anti-Sotomayor Spin Begins
- Breuer’s Claims about Future Investigations Undermined by Cheney’s Claims about the Past





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Fitz
I love me some Fitz!
And Christy, thank you thank you thank you!
FITZ-BODACIOUS !!!!
I’m already on my 30th Fitzmas hangover and the holiday has yet to really arrive. Fitzmas eve cannot go on forever.
Meanwhile, Reddhedd, you might enjoy one or two of these newfangled monopoly cards…after all if you cannot recycle old comedy bits and/or lie to a prosecutor what can you do?
Super size me some Fitz!!
“Move over Rover, let Fitzy take over!”
Question….
Before this thread really cranks up…
Are we FireDogs?
much was being made yesterday of whether or not Rove got a “target letter.” but i seem to recall it was reported that Libby got no such letter. it that right? so why do we care about a target letter?
I just want to mention that On Point today has the president of MSNBC on to talk about “the future of cable news” and at 11 it will be Joe Klein. He’ll be talking about Joe Klein’s own private universe where he’s the king of politics.
It seems obvious to me that the spin over Rove is just to keep him out of the front page headlines for as long as they can. They will do this right up until Fitz holds a press conference announcing his indictments.
Attaturk at #5 — BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, some coffee spew warning next time, pal. Those are freaking hilarious.
Oops, good morning Christy, how’s this for a welcome home gift, the perp goes in for his fifth visit to the GJ. We loved Taylor (Hi, Taylor!), but for Plame, you and Jane are our team, bar none.
Very Interesting…….But Stupid!
Dummying down, dummying down.
Its working, its working.
Brain Williams: Flight 93 – reminds us of the reason we are at war. Yet another way to reboot the military industrial standard BS Sad/AQ link up.
The Newspapers telling us (lying about) how a grand jury functions. For the benefit of the neocon agenda.
All Spin Zone
What purpose does putting this spin out serve? After all of this and Rove is still indicted, how does all of this previous spin help his cause?
One thing that bugs me is that when the press recaps what has happened up to this point, they mention Rove and Luskin discovering the Hadley email after Viveca’s conversation with Luskin. What the MSM does NOT mention is that this email had been subpoenaed several months earlier by Fitz. I think that is a huge piece of the puzzle to leave out since not complying with the subpoena amounts to obstruction.
Thanks for all the brilliant Leakgate posts!
Any chance we’ll get
Tony SnowPony Blow to comment on Rove’s status in the investigation? Luskin is going on and on about Rove not being a target, which when filtered throught the traditional media makes it sound like Rove isn’t even a subject of the investigation. We here know the distinction, but it’s just getting butchered by the MSM. I’ve been watching Robin Meade practically jump out of her seat in excitment thrice this morning at the thought that Rove isn’t a target; she’s made no disclaimer that “target” is a specific legal term and it doesn’t in any way imply that Rove is now in the clear.I’m hoping that Pony Blow will take a more expansive role in releasing information to the press about this particular ongoing legal proceeding than his predecessor. Unfortunately I can’t say that I have very high hopes.
Where are the usual suspects? I will leave the special name to the regulars.
I am really hoping that something substantial comes of this investigation more than Libby gets convicted and then, in about 1,000 days, a pardon. Others, as we know, need to be put on trail.
Unfortunately, I think, those in power will never pay the consequences that they should in relation to all of the pain and suffering that they have caused.
Now I see many in the MSM are starting to talk up Al Gore. Often these are the same that trashed him so badly the first time around.
It does seem that all of the legal problems, with the Libby indictment high on that list, have given the MSM a little backbone to look a little beyond the Rethug spin. I just hope that the new Snow job does not mean that the MSM will now start taking his word as gospel because he is going to be more aggressive than Snotty was.
Nikki J,
The spin, as I have before theorized, is to keep the country from believing that Rove is beyond a doubt, without a question, guiltty. The spin is not aimed at Fitzgerald, but at you (and me and every other citizen) via the media “news/commentariat.” Like you say, “Who cares if it doesn’t effect legal outcome?”
Well, if this can be put off just about six more months, then the President (post-election) will be able to issue pardons. If the Republicans retain control of Congress, then the current spin will help them go out and support the pardons:
“This is an investigation that has gone on too long and produced very few results. We know less now than we did when the entire issue arose. I applaud the President in putting an end to this costly and unproductive process.” And as we all know, that is the civil version.
If Dems take control of one or both houses, the current spin and confusion still allows the President (who will be the lamest of lame ducks in history) to still make that same argument and the vast majority of people will agree. They will know something is fishy, but they will be happy to have that investigation — which is just so darn confusing — behind them.
So, the spin is for the Winter 2006 pardon strategy. Hence, Comstock’s involvement at every turn.
the salient point is that more spin = hiding something yet to come.
which is good news.
Sex scandal? Why wouldn’t there be one with this bunch of criminals.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000481.php
Thanx, Christy, for the reminder about the proper role of the prosecutor — with all the spin coming from the Libby/Rove?RNC camps, such refreshers are a necessary antidote that clears the minds of those of us trying to keep track.
Oh, and a belated, and hearty, Welcome Back kiddo! :)
****************
nikki asked
What purpose does putting this spin out serve? After all of this and Rove is still indicted, how does all of this previous spin help his cause?
my guess is that its much easier to raise $5 million for your defense if you have been working on convincing the faithful that you are just the innocent victim of a malicious and political prosecutor….
Anyone having problems with posting comments besides me?
When does the grand jury next meet?
Anybody think there’s any chance Fitz was just tying up loose ends and will visit GJ tommorow and get handed up a Rove/takeyourpickofanyothersuspect indictment bomb tomorrow?
(ie he already has the docs, just needed i’s and t’s?)
Or would that seem too hasty?
Opinions barristers?
Bear Country-
“I am really hoping that something substantial comes of this investigation more than Libby gets convicted and then, in about 1,000 days, a pardon. Others, as we know, need to be put on trail.
Unfortunately, I think, those in power will never pay the consequences that they should in relation to all of the pain and suffering that they have caused.”
We have, I think, all had these thoughts during the long wait for more action from Fitz, and I’m glad you brought it up again because we have so many new friends here that I think some reassurance is in order. First of all, it’s important to remember that Pat Fitzgerald has been extremely busy with the Chicago investigation as well as another that I can’t remember just now. He has a team in DC working on this one who have continued the investigation.
As an old friend of ours, me, reminded us many times, Fitz is very methodical and careful. He doesn’t make a move until he’s absolutely sure and completely ready. He never, ever leaks and since this began the only communication he’s had with the press was the questions he answered when he did the presser for the Libby indictment, and even then there was much he wouldn’t comment about.
It’s easy to get discouraged, but remember that although we get information in instant time, we can’t expect the wheels of justice to move quite that fast.
Stay tuned, and read here and every link. There’s much more happening than what you read in the funny papers.
OT, but I think Christy will enjoy it when she finishes wading through the GJ-5thTrip spin. Check out this Cato study; it’s damned near a Libertarian’s writ of impeachment.
Power Surge: The Constitutional Record of George W. Bush
Link above is to an executive summary; full document is a PDF linked at bottom of page. Loved especially this closing paragraph:
Nicely put.
O/T Mid Terms -
am I seeing a softening of George Allen’s numbers ? can he be had ? I believe Jim Webb is getting set to officially launch his campaign – sure would be nice – anyone ?
oh yeah, Christy asks (rhetorically, I think) whether Fitz would be inclined to give Team Rover a professional ‘heads up’…if I were Fitz, having seen how the last ‘heads up’ on the amended filing a couple weeks ago (reply to Team Libby’s discovery motion) I’d be disinclined to any such action. Luskin has the same proclivities, I’d say.
Also, is has been pointed out that counsel are not in the GJ, anything so far out of Luskin can be classified as ‘hearsay.”
IMHO.
CNN last night made the comment that if Rove is indeed indicted that the GOP couldn’t recover and would most likely lose both houses in Fall. First time I’ve heard a MSM outlet pose that, quite a watershed moment.
Christy, as selfish as I am to want to read your first-rate analysis each day, I also have to think your work as a prosecutor is probably sorely missed. Your work brings home the sincerety of our justice system on its best days.
ps, next time you make banana bread, try adding a T of peanutbutter. Been meaning to pass that along now for some months. Pardon me everybody for the off topic.
Paul L.
LEft you and EPU’d comment on previous thread.
Christy
Nice to point out the role of professional demeanor on the part of a prosecutor. Fitz said something along the same lines in his “exclusive” interview with the Regis OWL. How cute was that interview? And how well written!
The other day, Jane or Tayler (?) was looking for predicions. Here is mine:
I expect lots more actvity in this case now that the Ryan case is over.
The Ryan case was the reason Fitz was brought to Chicago in the first place and it’s successful conclusion not only vindicated his occupancy of the USAO NDIL,, but also went a VERY VERY long way toward bulletproofing him from SaturdayNight Massacre. (Not saying I no longer worry about SNM–I do every day–but, the Ryan verdict is like an improved kevlar vest.)
I expect that he will busy himslef getting a much done on this case as he can during this window of opportunity b/c if the Chicago City Hall investigation gets another break and it looks like they might be able to indict Daley, Fitz will once again find himself pinned down back in NDIL analizing that huge mountain of evidence before approving a form of indictment indictment.
There was an article back when he first became USA NDIL about the form of indictment approval process in his office. He now delegates the easy once, but a request from an ASAU to indict somebody like Daley would require weeks of hands on analysis from him.
So, I am going to be glued to FDL and similar (though not as charming) sites for the forseeable future b/c I expect this investigation to make a lot of forward progress for the next little while.
Or maybe it’s just wishful thinking.
It’s a little scary to me that major media outlets, who are reporting on a complicated legal issue, cannot even get the basic fact of “who indicts” reported accurately.
I wonder however, if the developments are a positive for Rove, are they a negative for someone else?
Now I understand why Scott McClellan had to be removed posthaste. He’s the one who told the press that Rove had no connection to the leak. The WH expects Rove to be indicted, so they shuffled his assignment, and the WH did not want McClellan behind that podium when Rove is indicted. There was no staff shakeup in the WH. There was only a protective shift.
Booman -
“I can talk for three and half hours about a lot of things: baseball, history, music. But I can’t talk for three and half hours about a conversation I claim not to remember”
I think, if there is an indictment, and all of the buzz reminds me of the pre-Libby indictment times. If there is an indictment, all of the Luskinny spin will have served to lull the Kool-Aid Amen Corner into believing them.
So when the indictments come slapping down, they will again be shocked and awed.
Just like all of the nit-wits that were preparing for the big “Joe and Valerie Wilson” indictments.
They are leaving themselves open for a BIG dissapointment.
Keep spinning Goldbars, you’ll be able to buy earrings for the rest of your life off of the Karl Rove gravy train.
-GSD
ceee at 24:
This GJ meets twice a week – Wed and Fri.
OT -
One of the most appropriate names for a Supreme Court Justice (no, THE most) ever has to be Learned Hand.
I don’t know about his opinions (I’ve only falen in love w/William O. Douglas; the layreading of Griswold is inspirational). Back to Mr. Hand; it’s a cliche from the bench in Perry Mason for the phrase ‘learned counsel’ to flow from the the judge. And a professional like Fitz is a ’seasoned hand’. Put ‘em together and the Justice’s parents must have had precongnition and shared bloodlines w/our very own punaise.
just sayin’
back to the trail…
Larry #8
Our official title is The Jane Hamshers of the Left. Except for Jane.
Not enough for Fitzmas-nothing from the rabbit–maybe the gift that restores democracy for Memorial Day? Im asking for Rove, Cheney, and, unindicted co-conspirator for the Decider. Would love it if Powell, the faithful, were also named.
Oh, almost forgot. Target letters are not needed to indict.
Nonetheless, if Fitz sent one to Rove that would be huge b/c it would be like the pop up thingy on the turkey popping up, it would mean it was almost time for the feast.
I don’t recall Libby getting a target letter.
Also, if Karl cut a deal and flipped, they would keep it under wraps as long as possible and Luskin might engage in a little misdirection, but would be constrained from outright lying. When you flip for the gov’t all kinds of new rules apply to your behavior and since the value of your flip is not determined until sentencing day, any screw up between plea day and sentencing day can actually result in you losing what you gained. A bad enough screw up can leave you in a worse postion. (That actually happened to one of my informants–unbelievably stupid on his part. Screwed himself totally)
As a prosecutor, the place you want the informant to be in is this:
the period of time between the day when he pleads guilty and the day he is sentenced. During that time the prosecution owns his ass.
During that period the last thing the prosecution want anyone to know is that he has flipped. Otherwise his value as an informant gathering new evidence (can we say bodywire? NAGRA anyone?) is compromised.
So, don’t expect to see anythiing like that out in view if it happens.
The ‘other case’ in Chicago, noted above, (sorry can’t find the number with my old eyes) is the prosecution of Conrad Black for looting his own company. What makes this especially interesting (apart from Black’s role as a Murdoch epigone) is that Richard Perle is involved in the scam up to his kneecaps, if not higher, so there is more fun in that direction as well.
I don’t know how many of us are readers of BAGNews notes outside his posts over at Huffington, but I think it’s a great blog. Here’s a sample; his evaluation of a Michelle Malkin post of a photo of Snow she posted.
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.co….._snow.html
looseheadprop says:
April 27th, 2006 at 7:28 am
I was wondering yesterday about some of the items you mentioned. One question, please: what’s NAGRA?
Christy:
Since it should be common knowlege to any reporter worth his/her weight in gold bars why do you think they allow this spin from Rove’s lawyer to continue to be fed and refed? You well explained to us how the process works, thank you very much, because I really didn’t know that until you explained it). So, I was wondering if you would care to express your opinion as to why these stenographers allow the spin to continue without comment. It would be eazy for them to explain, as you have, how the process works but they don’t. There are a number of reasons why that might be. One of them being that they are in the business of leaning to the right. Another being that they are too lazy to learn and rebut. And others. What do you think…if you don’t mind my asking?
I’d put my money on Ben Ginsberg being one of the “legal experts” referred to in the second paragraph, since he was also on the talking head circuit yesterday to explain away any questions that Rove might be feeling some heat.
i was just thinking yesterday i hadn’t seen victoria toensing or joe degenova flapping their yaps in a while. look for them to be booked soon for blitzer’s panic room.
OT:
Did anyone see Colbert last night? He interviewed Phil Gingrey from Georgia’s “fightin 11th” in his hilarious Better Know a District series and it may have been the single funniest three minutes of TV I’ve ever seen. I don’t see it at C&L but I hope they make it available. Brilliant stuff!
Update:
http://www.bgladd.com/Fox_House_press_room.jpg
There is a book at Amazon called, of all things, “Decider”. Has a picture of a farm on the cover. Not to be confused with a ranch.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ…..p;n=283155
They can spin all they want. Fitz is either going to bite Rove in the ass, or he’s not. You can spin the past, sometimes, and get away with it. Trying to spin the future is pretty much futile. Reality has a way sweeping away spin like so much dirt.
Bobby: Diamonds, huh? Pretty soon we’ll have a complete deck. Collect them all!
correction: (”Your Honor, I was misinformed”):
Mr. Hand was NOT USSC Justice. But was influential enough that one might have that impression (unless,of course, you had a year or two law school, which, alas, I lack.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_Hand
U.S. District Court.
ah, well. Back to the case at hand (so to speak)
Kitt — I lean toward the laziness explanation, because there are some very good reporters out there who do the work and show the explanations. Unfortunately, for some of them though, it gets watered down by the editors — so it isn’t within the reporters control entirely. But when the same reporters at the same publications (*cough* VanDehei and the WaPo *cough*) keep making the same steno errors, it does make you wonder whether it is just laziness or some form of misinformation cooperation, doesn’t it?
Thank you, ecoast at 36.
I read this somewhere among the blogs. It gives hope to an indictment, hopefully on Friday:
Luskin said Rove was not a “target of the investigation”. Knowing how Rove parses words, this could be interpreted as Rove is not a “target of the investigation” into finding the person who outted Plame. It does not negate the possibility that he will be indicted for perjury.
Christy #52
Kitt — I lean toward the lazines explanation, because there are some very good reporters out there who do the work and show the explanations. Unfortunately,…
Thank you Christy. And, yes, it does make me wonder.
lhp at 40,
Sounds encouraging. IMHO, Rove is the type of guy that will, first and foremost, cover his own ass, he will not go to jail for Bushco. He is of the doughy ass college republicans, and their spawn – the 101st fighting keyboard commandos, who believe always in self preservation, the attainment and preservation of personal gain/wealth before ANYTHING else. He, master of dirty tricks, wordsmith, soundbyte expert, photographic memory, and etc. enjoys the cushy life too much, and will not relenquish it for any principle. He would definately squeal on his friends IF he had to.
BTW, did you notice, he seems to be losing/has lost a bunch of weight?
Mel #39
I wonder if Fitzoween would work? Just before the mid-terms would be a wonderful piece of timing. Plus we could all dress as our favorite Plamegate figure. I’m short, so I’ll be Scooter.
I have this ongoing image loop of Rove getting patted down for a wire, mob-style every time he joins Chimpy and the Dick for a meeting. *G*
Also OT: switching the radio dial on the commute this morning as AAmerica fades out in stretches I switch over to Imus (sleazy as he is) and the MSNBC news update actually reported that Exxon/Mobil had disappointing quarterly earnings as they failed to meet their profit goals. Switched back to AA and they were reporting the same story only like this: Exxon/Mobil made 8.4B in profits last 1/4 which was 7% higher than the same 1/4 last year.
Talk about parallel universes. Sheesh.
edna says @ #33:
April 27th, 2006 at 7:16 am
(snip) . . . “the WH did not want McClellan behind that podium when Rove is indicted. There was no staff shakeup in the WH. There was only a protective shift.”
Nice reading of the tea leaves. Thanks.
Good morning all,
Here now, Neil Young to start our day:
“Let’s impeach the president for lying
And leading our country into war
Abusing all the power that we gave him
And shipping all our money out the door
He’s the man who hired all the criminals
The White House shadows who hide behind closed doors
And bend the facts to fit with their new stories
Of why we have to send our men to war
Let’s impeach the president for spying
On citizens inside their own homes
Breaking every law in the country
By tapping our computers and telephones
What if Al Qaeda blew up the levees
Would New Orleans have been safer that way
Sheltered by our government’s protection
Or was someone just not home that day?
Let’s impeach the president
For hijacking our religion and using it to get elected
Dividing our country into colors
And still leaving black people neglected
Thank god he’s racking down on steroids
Since he sold his old baseball team
There’s lot of people looking at big trouble
But of course the president is clean
Thank God”
Jay # 46
fyi -
that episode of the Colbert Report will be broadcast today @ 1:30 CST / 12:30 EST
Rawstory:
Viv Novak left Time Mag. after court hubub.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0427.html
At what point do any of the RovesKorps realize that they too will be tossed off the porch like an empty beercan once Rove and Bush has squeezed every last useful drop from them
When do they realize that?
-GSD
And one of the front page headlines on today’s LA Times is ‘Lay Admits Contacting Witnesses’. Heckuvajob, Kenny-boy!
Redd–Ginsburg- you had to mention Ginsburg–Here comes my breakfast back up BLAAAAAHH! Holy shit he’s subhuman.
The architect Rove knew that I was razing him up the moment he received my target letter last year.
edna and oregondave,
Spent much of yesterday, once again, in the teensy tea leaves of Plame-space.
But once I left that netherworld for something more tangible (dance class) my intuition pumped in and I saw the “shifts” that edna referred to (Scotty’s farewell, for instance). Add in the rumors of Woodie’s short leash, Rove’s demotion, etc. and I’m now getting what I heard some wags state after the Libby indictment: That was the end of the beginning.
Agree with zennurse downthread: I think there’s a lot more going on than we can see or know right now. Think global warming effect on icebergs.
Morning. Let me look at a couple of things I mentioned yesterday, but didn’t hear too much about. [NOT a complaint! it was mighty “news-busy” yesterday!]
1. Is Rove the first “live, and in person” witness to appear before this GJ on the Plame matter? [remember, “this” GJ convened AFTER the Libby indictment]
2. Is it possible that 1 or more grand jurors just wanted to “see” Rove….to get a feel for him? Here’s my point- and I’ve never served on a GJ-
But, I think if I were a juror, so far I would be reading these transcripts given to me by Fitz. He’d point out Rove said “this, this, and this on x dates, then he said THAT later on” etc. I’d sit back and go….hmmmm. I see Fitz’s point, I see the change in testimony. But this is all complex…before I vote to indict this Rove guy…I want to eyeball him. I want to see what my own gut tells me about him. I want to hear, live and in person, what he says to explain all this.
And thus, Rove appears yesterday. Is my idea waaaay off base, or with any merit?
Ghostman
OT– but talk about spin– Mark Schmitt @ TPM has this lovely quote from Georgie Porgie Allen wrt Tony Snow:
>>>>>>
The best thing that Tony’s going to do is bring the pulse of the American people into the White House in those deliberations. People like Laura Ingraham and Tony and Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, they understand what’s going on in the real world, and I think that’s going to be very helpful for the White House as they develop policy to move this country forward….I think it will be good for the American people, too, to have one of their advocates clearly in the White House who’s on the pulse of the people in the real world.
angie,
I saw that interview. After I belly-laughed over the comment you posted, I wanted to smack that goofy grin off of his face. BTW, he appeared to have a buzz on.
angie,
I also had to LOL at the thought that Rush and Hannity “understand what’s going on in the real world…”
Right. I guess one could buy a lot of $3 gas with the money from pawning an expensive suit and a fine cigar collection. Sheesh.
Jay– there’s more about Allen from Taegan Goddard. He’s gonna have to get a buzz to get thru the questioning on this that Dru sent me via HuffPo:
>>>>>>
Allen’s Race Problem
Political Wire received an advance copy of a New Republic profile of Sen. George Allen (R-VA) in which author Ryan Lizza finds many of Allen’s high school classmates surprised that he’s considering running for president because of the racist tendencies he displayed as a teenager. They say he “plastered the school with confederate flags” and drove a red Mustang with a confederate flag on the front. Then Lizza got a copy of Allen’s high school yearbook:
I stared closely at Allen’s smirk in his photo, weighing whether his old classmates were just out to destroy him. And then I noticed something on his collar. It’s hard to make out, but then it becomes obvious. Seventeen-year-old George Allen is wearing a Confederate flag pin.
When confronted with this evidence, Allen sent an email through an aide with this explanation: “When I was in high school in California, I generally bucked authority and the rebel flag was just a way to express that attitude.â€
Ghostman,
It could happen that way — the power to require a witness to appear belongs to the Grand Jury, not the prosecutor.
That said, any prosecutor who did not want that to happen (because of a negative impact on the investigation) probably would have enough sway to get the GJ to settle down until the moment was appropriate. So, technically the GJ could have subpoenaed Rove; in practice, the interests of the Prosecutor and the GJ would have to be alligned for that to happen. When Grand Juries start subpoenaing people against th ewishes of the prosecutor, they are referred to as a “ROGUE GRAND JURY!” Prosecutors hate them….
Also, I do believe the report that there was no subpoena for testimony. Therefore, it was not a solely GJ-initiated visit. My best guess is still this is not investigation, but part of a plea agreement. It just feels that way to me….
Angie; can’t wait ’til somebody interviews his UVa classmates!
Get this for spin: Last night the anchor of the 11 local news (NBC) said “the special prosecutor has said Rove isn’t a target of the investigation.” Yes, that’s what she said. Course as far as I can tell the special prosecutor hasn’t said one damn word about anything regarding Rove, least of all that “he’s not a target.”
Dru– neither can I ;) heh.
Larry at 23, make sure your html is very vanilla. blockquotes, italics, links ok, much else not.
Sigh. What gets me is that anyone is buying the spin here. If he were really just “tying up loose ends”, Fitz could have deposed Karl away from the grand jury, just like he’s done all of the other times he’s really been tying up loose ends (Woodward, Luskin, V Novak, etc). Karlita’s in front of the grand jury because somebody (probably Rove, maybe Luskin, maybe some other player) is in grave danger of being indicted.
Haha! Talk about archetypal coherance. When I saw the spinning image, I thought the post was about the latest Bushgirl spin!
magnum 73
What TV market is that?
also; Rush, Hannity, Ingraham, etal:
I have no clue about anyone of their personal lives, but if they are tuned into yer avg Bubba’s real life; do ya think any one of them knows much about, say, Nascar, or how to use a rod n reel and tie a fly, like real bass fishers? Or know what $3.00/gal gas does to the credit card payment?
Me, I would say, “Not so much…”
Ah, yes, when all else fails there is the “that would have been stupid defenseâ€. It appears that Karl Rove has chosen this to be a piece of his final efforts to avoid indictment. I’ve always found the very notion of this defense flawed. The premise of the defense is that smart people wouldn’t do stupid things or make decisions that could rationally be expected to lead to negative consequences. In Rove’s case, as I understand the issue, the argument is being used to explain an oversight to reveal all the details of his conversation with Matt Cooper (specifically the part about Valerie Plame)…in essence he simply forgot that portion of the conversation but to lie would have been stupid…and Rove knows people don’t think he is stupid.
The unspoken assertion by those who use this defense (Tom DeLay comes to mind) is that they may use their intelligence to walk right up to the line, but they are also smart enough to never cross that line…basically they know the rules so well they can navigate them like a skilled tightrope walker. On the surface it sounds reasonable and plausible.
Unfortunately, history often seems to contradict this defense and the premise upon which it is founded. That’s not to say these individuals are stupid…they are actually quite bright. However, what people may miss is an understanding that whatever these people possess in terms of smarts sometimes pales in comparison to the zeal with which they seek wealth, prestige, or power. In essence, smart people, not unlike others who lie and manipulate, are not above self-deceit in order to augment lofty goals, obtuse egos, and an unbridled hunger for power.
read full analysis here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
My best guess is still this is not investigation, but part of a plea agreement.
Rove will never cop a plea — he can no more admit guilt than Dubya can admit error.
I am hoping that Fitz is going for a conspiracy, because it seems to me that he has referenced in some of his filings a concerted and coordinated effort by persons in the White House to go after an enemy. However, I have a question. Can the prosecutor go for conspiracy if one exists, as long as a crime or crimes was/were committed in pursuit of the conspirator’s goals, even though the underlying goal itself was not illegal, only unethical? I think Fitz could make a case for conspiracy to abuse classified information for political purposes (although I can see why he’d want to think long and hard before doing that. It seems to me it took about a decade for the country to get over Watergate.) Nothing would make me happier than to see him indict all the Iraq Group with George Bush as the (unindicted coconspirator) cherry on the top.
Just noting: Joe Klein just got a great question about his being part of the “cocktail party pundit class”, from a Cuban refugee who voted for Mitt Romney bringing up Truman’s ‘48 “very left” speech. Joe says he responds postively depending on what they’re saying, must separate policy from politics. (Mentions the word angry in rel to Left-wing bloggers, prior to the question, which the questioner may not have heard.)
Callers are good, Joe is self-absorbed.
OT – But interesting
Keith Jackson, the college football announcer, in talking about his retirement:
“I’m going out to learn to be a senior citizen and find a president I can vote for and believe in.”
I don’t know what the “Keith Jackson” vote represents, but if it is not
baseballfootbal, hotdogs, apple pie and Chevrolet America, then I’m not omniscient.And if the Chimpy in Chief and repugs have lost the “Keith Jackson” vote, well, ponies all around.
D.Derito (79)
Well thought out and appreciated, but please no blog pimping here. It’s shady.
Blank Kludge 78: Washington DC
I realize the moving hand has moved on to another thread…but is Ginsburg and Luskin at the same law-firm? If so (and I’m sure this old news at this point), isn’t it bizarre that they have Ginsburg discussing Luskin’s case as if he were an objective “pundit.” Oxymorons aside, I can’t help but feeling like the LA Times and Vandehei articles read like TV ads for Luskin’s legal prowess. Damn…they let him get away with some excellent PR for his firm. To read this, you’d come to believe that Luskin has made Fitzgerald see the error of his ways in the nick of time. Bob Luskin…Torts, Workmen’s Comp and DUI. Call us. Anytime.
Reddhead – If I were a famous blogger with a fine legal mind looking at all things Rover, the perspective I would look at it from is this: If I were representing Pigboy, what would I think is going on and why. I wouldn’t look at it from the prosecution side, just the defense side.
I think if you look at it from that perspective, cut out all the CM BS, and just look at the facts regarding the investigation so far and your client’s role in both the events being investigated and the investigation itself, you would come to one of two conclusions – he is already cooperating in exchange for a plea deal, or he will be indicted.
But that’s me.
Great picture at the head of this thread.
Lots of people spinnig like mad and going nowhere.
Only hope it’s predictive.
Scattered thoughts on the Rove thing:
“Could be good news for Rove”- Yeah and the next good news will be that he’s got terminal brain cancer-there’s NO way this is good news for Rove and any reporter who prints that shit without comment deserves to be fired.
Rove is not a wealthy guy- he came into the White House with less than a million dollars in assets- and he’s been FHON-ing (feathering his own nest) ever since. The cost of Luskin alone would damned near break him. He wants to spend his golden years runnin with the hot shots- that means at least $10 mm in the bank. He’s vulnerable.
The combination job at the White House (politics and policy) was the perfect opportunity to shake down donors. “If you give us this- I’ll get you that- and I am the guy who can do it.”. It also provided a perfect opportunity for nest feathering. Someone needs to look into Karl’s bank account.
Karl knew about the GJ interview at least three weeks ago. It certainly influenced his “demotion”. So whose idea was it for him to step down? There’s a big story there.
If Karl gets indicted- and convicted- he’s in much worse shape than Libby. Libby has money. Libby can do work that has less high visibility and support himself. Karl only knows politics- and if he’s poison- he can’t make a living.
All of these things have to be spinning around in his mind. His goal has to be to get out of this thing undamaged- both politically and financially. That’s a tall order.
When this GOP pack of criminals is run off they may still have a plan to act as spoilers, assassin’s and terrorist’s. A new KKK.
So we may need to get some of those retired generals back and bring more troops home like it was Little Rock again.
Just sayin.
BTW with this media featuring the likes of a red fascist ( Hitchen’s ) and a brownshirt like Ledeen I would say the Military-industrial complex has become the Military- entertainment complex. The anti-trust laws will have to dusted off big time to deal with this menace won’t they?
Merry Fitzmayday and Fitzo de Mayo.
rwcole says:
April 27th, 2006 at 8:51 am
You’ve made some excellent points in your comments. Yes, his bank account needs to be looked into; perhaps that project is already in progress.
The idea for him to step down is a big story.
This leads me to EPU’s comments in post 87 above. If Karl has entered into a plea agreement or if he will be indicted, then why all the spin? Although this week’s spin resembles the spin from three or four months ago, I’m wondering if it’s intended for the general public – no, perhaps not now, though that may have been the intent three or four months ago. I think I see what is happening…
I have been so grateful for Christy’s analysis throughout this whole investigation, and haven’t had anything to add. But it struck me today with Christy’s reference to “Gold Bars” Luskin, that, really, what sets most of us apart from the Republicans is that they never, ever, run out of money, and this is why they can sustain the 24/7 attack on the Constitution. Think what could be done with all that money! Everybody that gets sick could go to the doctor. Everybody that gets into college could actually go. We could really tackle our oil dependency. We could afford the personnel needed to hand-count every vote.
Say, I really like that real-time preview feature!
SP, CPA and others.
I don’t know why they spin. They remind me of very young children who, when they hide under a blanket really think they are invisible. That lasts till what, 3 or 4?
I (really should use We) believe they are delusional in so many ways, so why not have a delusion that the public will believe that Rover is not a subject or target or whatever so long as he is not indicted or not know publicly to be cooperating; take refuge under their blankie of spin; until Fitz speaks or acts, nothing has happened and all is well, and somehow, the vast majority of Americans will believe it.
Silly? Ineffectual? Strange? Dumb? Yeah, since they’ve lost the “Keith Jackson” vote and so many other constituencies. But, it is all they have. Taking a different tack would lead to admissions regarding the phony evidence used to promote the war, the lies, etc. And that just cuts too deep, so really isn’t available to them.
I’m fine with their strategy b/c I believe that most people don’t get past Bush Administration/Criminal Investigation/National Security. The details don’t matter. The big issue themes are a winner so long as they talk about it.
So. Delusion Away.
Hi Christy, love your take on all this, Jane has seen my film “Rove’s War” and posted my “Fitzmas Tree” flash animaton here on the site, just my way of introduction.
The “Rove’s War” film is a two DVD set thats a complete Chronology of the Plame outing, spent a year researching it.
Here’s one take on the situation with Rove that I’ve put forward on another site, I was asked to post it here by another great poster yodermom, thinking it might be a good theory to bring up..
Here it is:
*****
I’ve been doing some more research on the web and I think I can see a solution that answers ALL the issues and even in a way, bails out Mr Leopold..
Here’s the scene. Now a Target Letter may not have to be a “letter” at all, tho some kind of agreement may have been reached on paper before today. As folks may recall Fitz met with Luskin AND Rove BEFORE they went into the Grand Jury and had a discussion. There’s a possibility that Fitz gave Rove a “Come to Jesus” speech, which is basically, “Look bud, I OWN YOU.. I’ve got the goods on you, you may as well fess up, plead guilty and co-operate and we’ll see what we can do as far as reducing the sentence..”
Now IF according to Leopold there was an Agreement beforehand (maybe on paper), then that letter would “technically” be a “Target Letter”, IE Rove is now a Target, but part of the agreement is that Fitz will allow Luskin to state publicly outside and after the Grand Jury meet that Rove is only a Subject and NOT a Target.. Once Rove has pled GUILTY inside to the COOPER LIES, then he technically is NO LONGER a “Target”, BUT he still had to deal with two subjects SINCE those lies, Vivica Novak, and the 250 emails..
So, since he’s pled guilty to the one charge on this visit “Obstruction of Justice”? “Lying to a Grand Jury” whichever.. he’s STILL open to Indictments on these other counts, part of the agreement being to spill his guts, so Fitz can get to the CENTER of the cookie, Bush or Cheney (who can still be btw, charge with “Obstruction of Justice” whether they were under oath or not).. That’s why it’s been reported that Rove, “Doesn’t know if he’ll be Indicted yet..”
He gets to walk out and his lawyer says he’s NOT a Target, as per the deal with Fitz.
Which means that the look you saw in one photo, the pucker factor reflecting the other end of this monster’s face was about 9.98.. It is possible that Rove Pled GUILTY YESTERDAY and may STILL BE INDICTED on more charges, or bled some more for info.
Hopefully leading to Bush or Cheney. And we may never find out what he copped to, or anything for that matter, a lot of this being done in SECRET, and plenty of conjecture.
Ideas? Thoughts?
*****
So , sure, I know the GJ can’t do anything but indict, and I’ve been told that he’s got to be indicted, then judged in open court and all that..
But from the times I’ve been in court I’ve known that it’s a dog and pony show, once everyone has agreed to a plea bargain it’s just rubberstampping a bunch of paper, signatures, etc..
Sealing the Indictment would still allow Luskin to walk out of the Grand Jury with Fitz’s approval and say that Rove is still a “SUBJECT” etc, while Rove is singing his lil heart out at each meeeting..
Going to so many meetings has made me thing there MUST be a deal, and there’s a LOT of secrecy going on in any case, being the Bush admin in the first place..
So, there’s my theory, hack away, anyone, but in the end I do think this is possible, and that there may be an anticlimactic end to this, hopefully not a pardon, and we take back both houses and slash and burn all the criminals
Keep up the great work!
Symbolman co founder of Takebackthemedia.com
Just as an aside… It was mentioned that Rove did not initially recall his telephone conversation with Cooper “amid the hundreds of calls” he deals with each day.
Ok, let’s be conservative and assume “hundreds” means 200 and let’s say each call lasts 3 minutes. This means Karl spends a solid 10 hours a day on the phone.
So how did he get to be so rotund? He doesn’t have time to eat.
You are making too much of this, Ms. Smith. You are undoubtedly correct that Fitz did not/would not say that he was going to indict Rove, since this is the province of the Grand Jury. As you point out, he would have to be a moron or a press hog. However, it was Luskin to whom the thought is attributed. He is surely a press hog, and I leave to others the judgment about him being a moron. Moreover, though a prosecutor doesn’t indict, he or she does present charges to the grand jury, who then indict or return a no true bill. (Also known as an ignoramus, for you trivia buffs.) Finally, Luskin was not directly quoted, and the difference upon which you focus is subtle enough that you cannot discout the possibility that it escaped the reporter’s attention.
Visit the Schapira blog What we know so far …
“… and tell ‘em Big Mitch sent ya!”