
I don’t know how to write about torture being committed by the US government. It’s an incredibly difficult subject to dissect, in large part because it gets to the heart of why most liberal bloggers do what they do. I don’t know many in the liberal blogosphere whose advertising revenues generated in the free market (as opposed to the wingnut welfare system) even pay for the maintenance of their sites, and those very few whose sites cover their costs could inarguably be making much more money doing something else. But there is something so deeply wrong and at such dissonance between the country we grew up to believe in and what this government is now engaged in that its unspoken presence informs every post, every word, even the decision to get up every morning and turn on the computer. To sit back and do nothing while this happens is unthinkable for anyone who genuinely believes in this country and the principles upon which it was founded.
And there is nothing that reveals the utter moral bankruptcy, the complete dehumanizing vacuousness of the right more than when it steps forward to defend torture and those who petulantly assert their right to engage in it as somehow "patriotic," and call for the elimination of all those who oppose it.
There certainly appears to be no limits on what Bush followers will endorse in the name of fighting The Enemies, domestic ones included, sometimes most prominently. And what is so significant about this is that the institutions which previously existed as a safeguard against arbitrary punishment and abuse of power — things like due process guarantees, Congressional oversight, an adversarial media, whistleblowers — have all been steadily eroded. The administration has seized the power to arrest people without charges, hold them in secret prisons, use torture to interrogate them, etc. That is all out in the open and prompts defenses of these practices from its followers. That makes the attempt to equate political opposition with criminality and even treason — one of the most common tactics of the administration and its followers — all the more dangerous.
I want to go back to the original Dana Priest articles just to remind everyone what we’re talking about here. From the November 2, 2005 article entitled CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons:
The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.
No congressional oversight allowed. We are supposed to trust the "boy king" to use the powers he seizes for himself appropriately and judiciously. Another one of those "trust me" moments.
Let’s read a little further from the article:
"I remember asking: What are we going to do with these people?" said a senior CIA officer. "I kept saying, where’s the help? We’ve got to bring in some help. We can’t be jailers — our job is to find Osama."
Then came grisly reports, in the winter of 2001, that prisoners kept by allied Afghan generals in cargo containers had died of asphyxiation. The CIA asked Congress for, and was quickly granted, tens of millions of dollars to establish a larger, long-term system in Afghanistan, parts of which would be used for CIA prisoners.
The largest CIA prison in Afghanistan was code-named the Salt Pit. It was also the CIA’s substation and was first housed in an old brick factory outside Kabul. In November 2002, an inexperienced CIA case officer allegedly ordered guards to strip naked an uncooperative young detainee, chain him to the concrete floor and leave him there overnight without blankets. He froze to death, according to four U.S. government officials. The CIA officer has not been charged in the death.
The Salt Pit was protected by surveillance cameras and tough Afghan guards, but the road leading to it was not safe to travel and the jail was eventually moved inside Bagram Air Base. It has since been relocated off the base.
By mid-2002, the CIA had worked out secret black-site deals with two countries, including Thailand and one Eastern European nation, current and former officials said. An estimated $100 million was tucked inside the classified annex of the first supplemental Afghanistan appropriation.
Then the CIA captured its first big detainee, in March 28, 2002. Pakistani forces took Abu Zubaida, al Qaeda’s operations chief, into custody and the CIA whisked him to the new black site in Thailand, which included underground interrogation cells, said several former and current intelligence officials. Six months later, Sept. 11 planner Ramzi Binalshibh was also captured in Pakistan and flown to Thailand.
But after published reports revealed the existence of the site in June 2003, Thai officials insisted the CIA shut it down, and the two terrorists were moved elsewhere, according to former government officials involved in the matter. Work between the two countries on counterterrorism has been lukewarm ever since.
In late 2002 or early 2003, the CIA brokered deals with other countries to establish black-site prisons. One of these sites — which sources said they believed to be the CIA’s biggest facility now — became particularly important when the agency realized it would have a growing number of prisoners and a shrinking number of prisons.
Thailand was closed, and sometime in 2004 the CIA decided it had to give up its small site at Guantanamo Bay. The CIA had planned to convert that into a state-of-the-art facility, operated independently of the military. The CIA pulled out when U.S. courts began to exercise greater control over the military detainees, and agency officials feared judges would soon extend the same type of supervision over their detainees.
In hindsight, say some former and current intelligence officials, the CIA’s problems were exacerbated by another decision made within the Counterterrorist Center at Langley.
The CIA program’s original scope was to hide and interrogate the two dozen or so al Qaeda leaders believed to be directly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, or who posed an imminent threat, or had knowledge of the larger al Qaeda network. But as the volume of leads pouring into the CTC from abroad increased, and the capacity of its paramilitary group to seize suspects grew, the CIA began apprehending more people whose intelligence value and links to terrorism were less certain, according to four current and former officials.
The original standard for consigning suspects to the invisible universe was lowered or ignored, they said. "They’ve got many, many more who don’t reach any threshold," one intelligence official said.
Several former and current intelligence officials, as well as several other U.S. government officials with knowledge of the program, express frustration that the White House and the leaders of the intelligence community have not made it a priority to decide whether the secret internment program should continue in its current form, or be replaced by some other approach.
Meanwhile, the debate over the wisdom of the program continues among CIA officers, some of whom also argue that the secrecy surrounding the program is not sustainable.
"It’s just a horrible burden," said the intelligence official.
The same passage that makes us shudder with abhorrance will give shivers of delight to the eliminationists of the right. I have no idea the channels that Mary McCarthy went through (or didn’t) as she tried to get her information out, or even which parts of the Priest series were sourced to her, but neither does anyone calling for her head.
But I do believe one thing: it was extremely important that the information in Dana Priest’s articles enter the public discourse. And I would like to see a bit more acknowledment of that fact by the likes of Jane Harmon who likes to run just to the right of Atilla the Hun.
Said Harman :
"I don’t know this woman, and I do not condone leaks of classified information," said Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, referring to the firing of Mary McCarthy.
How exactly were we supposed to find out? Was Harman planning on telling us?
As Digby says:
This is why the Democrats need to be very tough and make it clear that they are serious about holding this administration accountable for what they’ve done. If they are not out front, visibly willing to get these generals’ and these whistleblowers’ backs, they are sending a signal that these folks are on their own while the harpies are circling. Democrats need to step up here.
If the series in the American Prospect is credible (and I believe it is) the biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing. If they are not willing to step into the breech and stand against torture until someone tells them it’s polling well, it’s a terrifyingly apt critique.



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Fitz
So sad…..so shameful.
Fitz.
EPU’D–SORRY FOR THE OT:
Just a friendly reminder to clear your schedule for Drinking Liberally, 7:30pm Wednesday, April 26th at New Word Brewery, 1313 E 8th Ave in Ybor City.
worst.president.ever
Great fucking post! This is why I come here.
“…it’s a terrifyingly apt critique”
Jane, it turns my stomach that Americans buy the official 9/11 story, which is what has led to this acceptance of torture.
When people talk about values, this is where we should take the debate. If the conservatives won’t stand up publicly against torture in any form whatsoever, and won’t stand up for a public investigation of torture and prosecution of those guilty INCLUDING those at the top, what kind of values do they really have?
A question to ask those who support the firing of the leaker, and condemn the leaks, is — Is there anything the U.S. government could do, which would compel you to support a CIA agent leaking to the press? If not secret prisons where torture happens, how about kidnapping, torture, and murder of American citizens?
The point is that everyone (except the real wingnuts) have a point at which they would support leaking to the press, so the public can know about and hold the government accountable for its actions. Once that’s established, we’re just arguing about whether in this case the leak was justified.
Secret prisons, torture, murder. I say yes, the leaks were not only justified, but it was the responsibility of anyone who knew this was going on to do something about it — and, by the way, to not quit the CIA (as some have suggested she should have done), but remain and watch for more reprehensible actions.
History will judge Mary McCarthy as a morally righteous patriot.
….biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing. If they are not willing to step into the breech and stand against torture until someone tells them it’s polling well, it’s a terrifyingly apt critique…
Jane,you are so very right!!!!
Why do so few get it?
Sometimes I think my head is exploding.
EPU’d ; )
Cujo359,
“It’s too bad there’s no federal whistleblower law that can be applied everywhere, but right now I’d fear the result of this Congress drafting such a law.â€
I looked at this several months ago. It’s been tried and more than once but died in committee, IIRC.
Thank you, Jane, for calling attention to this hideous crime. Silly me – when I was growing up, I believed America fought torture and torturers. Now I know that Bush’s America kidnaps innocents and delivers them to be tortured.
The recent reports on Gitmo (over three hundred force-fed!) and some Abu Gharaib reports describe physician involvement in torture/”force-feeding” activities conducted by US military and CIA.
If Americans can’t be bothered to care about torture carried out in their names, perhaps they will be moved to care about having “Dr. Torture” for their very own doc once the MD is out of uniform.
Dave at 1:26, #8
Right fucking on.
tiz clear we are becummin the thang we hate when we used to be the hope of the worl. aint hardly nuthin saddern that. grate post, as always.
EPU’ed but applicable here
What was the legal authorization for renditions, torture, and underground prisons? The Administration’s argument has largely been that Article II gives the President the power to do these kinds of things. As many have noted such an argument is too strong. It would allow the President to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to. It would make the rest of our government and the concept of law itself superfluous. The President would just do what he did and that would be the end of it, no checks, no balances, just raw unfettered power. It is a measure of how ethically, morally, and intellectually bankrupt our nation’s leaders are that they would put forth such a rationale but there it is.
As for the rest, whether we look at this from the domestic Constitutional perspective, the military framework of the UCMJ, or our treaty obligations under the Geneva Conventions, some one of these or perhaps more than one of these must apply. Yet none of these sanction what George Bush has done.
In keeping with the perverse values of this Administration, when bad news comes out, Bush’s approach is not to adapt or admit blame. He shoots the messenger.
There is no statute of limitations wrt to the War Crimes Act– our law. We must, must, must hold those accountable for this torture and disgrace and if people like Harman are not gonna do it, then it is up to we, the people to get her and her ilk out and some accountability minded folks in. Check out Elizabeth Holtzman’s take:
>>>>
The key question is not whether detainees in Iraq were subjected to inhuman treatment in violation of the War Crimes Act, but how high up the responsibility goes for those abhorrent acts. Under well-established principles of international law, officials in the chain of command who order inhuman treatment or who, knowing about it, fail to stop it are responsible. The “chain of command” doctrine is undoubtedly applicable to War Crimes Act prosecutions. But even if it weren’t, higher-ups could be held responsible under the principles of conspiracy or aiding and abetting the crime under normal federal criminal law. This was surely the reason that Gonzales wanted to block future prosecutions of higher-ups by “prosecutors and independent counsels.”
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050718/holtzman
We do these things on foreign soil because our laws prohibit them. We do them in secret to avoid any backlash, foreign or domestic. We prosecute anybody who dares to shed light on it.
People who think torture is okay always begin with the assumption that we can trust our leaders. But when the administration is still repeating the demonstrably false claim that most of the inmates in Guantanamo were picked up on the battlefield, how can they be trusted?
Impeach the Decider. Let’s do it now while the Republicans control both houses. No, I don’t want a President Hastert. But impeachment now proves that this is about policy, not politics. Impeachment now will protect both the people and the presidency.
It seems to me that this whole topic of “abuse” is linked in a very profound way to corruption.
corruption = “a state of decay… putrid… rotten”
depravity = “moral corruption”
This whole topic is the visible manifestation of corruption, both legal and political. This is the visible manifestation of depravity.
Related
“Liar, Liar”
The worst of it is that the very people who appeal to Christian values as the basis for governing are the one who are the most supportive of torturing other human beings, all the more appropriate if they are of the Muslim faith. This is the crusades all over again. If Christ could see what has become of his teachings he would weep.
Wankers all. The Dems have no policy? Get real guys. You’re on MY side I think!?!?!? It’s pretty bad when the right wing noise machine starts affecting our side so much you start parroting their memes!!!
———————–
Despite implied-perceptions to the contrary, people actually do know what issues Democrats support: stem cell research, Medicare, stopping global warming, Social Security reform without privatization, universal health care, and not blindly “Staying the Course” in Iraq, for starters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..19698.html
God grant us the grace to live long lives. Lives long enough to see those responsible in this administration tried and convicted for their war crimes.
Cozumel @ 1:29 pm (#10) – Perhaps it’s a blessing nothing further was done. This Congress has had a habit of passing legislation that’s worse than many of the state laws it supplants. I’d hate for this to become another one.
I was momentarily stunned into silence by the photograph. Now that the words are returning, I can say that my eyes are filled with tears and my heart is filled with shame that these things are being done in my name.
In WW II, Germans who knew they were about to be captured would try to surrender to American forces because they knew that, as prisoners of war,they would be treated well. When this assault on Iraq began, I naively assumed our troops had orders to treat prisoners similarly, according to the Geneva rules.
This administration is a criminal enterprise – truly, I am stifling an urge to go puke.
I do believe there is a double standard, and it was nice to see Harman and Kerry attack that point quickly for once.
Great question Dave! My threshhold is low: secretive shit, anything that looks unconstitutional. I don’t have any desire to live in a monarchy, so if “I’m in the know” the king-behavior would not be acceptable, if not by my superior, then by me, any means possible. We the public have a right to know, period.
With McCarthy I’m in a wait and see mode. If there are proper channels to go through in the CIA then those need to be followed (especially NOW!), get it on record that you talked to your superior. Then if you have to leak something as serious as this, you do it!
This is the sentence that got to me most, and I had just finished reading Greenwald’s post before finding this one:
The same passage that makes us shudder with abhorrance will give shivers of delight to the eliminationists of the right.
The very idea that others could read that Priest article with glee, cheering and relish staggers the mind, but this is what we face. We liberals are often loathe to look evil in the face, as our critics on the right often claim, but it is not eveil abroad we misunderestimate: it is the power of evil in the hearts of our neighbors we most overlook.
Now, I’m not enagaging in the language of “treason” and “enemies” that Glenn’s post so ably dissects in the linked blog entry. But nevertheless, the darkest parts of human nature are always with us – all of us – and in some times, places and societies, the conditions ripen for an overflowing of our inner malevolence.
Jane is absolutely right, as is Digby: as these people lose political credibility, they will become even less circumspect (if that were possible) and more extreme. They expected a permanent American reich. We can’t give it to them, and we can’t assume we’ve changed the tenor of the nation even with one or two successful election cycles.
This stuff can always arise again, and you can never drive a stake through its heart to kill it forever. But you can work to change our times in such a fundamental way that movements like the one in America that salivates over torture can be discredited and repudiated for a generation or two. That’s our job.
With a new report of a JAR of 32%, we may be seeing the angry Bubba effect kick in. There are some segments of the electorate that will never admit that they and Bush were wrong on any issue who will still abandon him because they hate the taint of a loser and because they can see the ship is going down. They may not like it but they like having their noses rubbed in his failures even less.
i’ve never had any doubts about the moral depravity of these motherfuckers. what truly astonished me was the eager and enthusiastic endorsement of torture by chris matthews and wolf blitzer et al. how these people could defend the use of torture based on their teevee viewing habits — the constant comparison to ‘24′ — is such a testament to the utter corruption and degradation of the corporate media in this country.
basic cable porn.
Here’s the story on the CNN poll- apparently it was NOT from Gallup.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — President Bush’s approval ratings have sunk to a personal low, with only a third of Americans saying they approve of the way he is handling his job, a national poll released Monday said.
In the telephone poll of 1,012 adult Americans carried out Friday through Sunday by Opinion Research Corporation for CNN, 32 percent of respondents said they approve of Bush’s performance, 60 percent said they disapprove and 8 percent said they do not know.
That’s a significant drop from the way Americans perceived the president a year ago. In a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll carried out April 29-May 1, 2005, Americans were split on their assessments of Bush’s performance, with 48 percent saying they approved and 49 percent saying they disapproved. (Read the complete results document — PDF)
CNN’s poll has a sampling error of plus-or-minus 3 percentage points for most questions.
It was one of four conducted within the past 10 days that have yielded similar results: a Pew Center poll carried out April 7-16 gave Bush a 35 percent approval rating; a Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll carried out last Tuesday and Wednesday gave him a 33 percent approval rating; and an American Research Group poll carried out Tuesday through Friday gave him a 34 percent approval rating.
Asked whether the term “strong and decisive leader” describes Bush, 46 percent said yes, down from 62 percent who said they felt that way in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup survey carried out July 22-24, 2005.
Asked whether “honest and trustworthy” describes the president, 40 percent said yes, down from 56 percent in a survey carried out April 1-2 last year.
Americans were evenly split on whether Bush is “competent,” with 47 percent saying yes, 47 percent saying no and 6 percent expressing no opinion.
Dissatisfaction with their leader appears to parallel Americans’ unhappiness over gas prices. More than two-thirds of Americans (69 percent) said recent increases in the cost of gasoline have caused them hardship, with 28 percent saying they have not, and 1 percent saying they have no opinion.
Asked to rate the level of hardship, 23 percent described it as “severe,” and 46 percent described it as “moderate.”
That’s up from last April, when a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll found that 15 percent of respondents said the price of gasoline was causing them “severe hardship” and 43 percent said it was causing them “moderate” hardship.
Last week, a Lundberg Survey of gasoline prices found the average cost of a gallon of self-serve regular was $2.91. Last April, the average gallon cost $2.29.
Bush’s flagging popularity might produce dividends for the Democrats. Asked about the congressional elections slated for November, half of registered voters said they would vote for Democrats if the election were held now, 40 percent said they would vote for Republicans and 6 percent said they did not know.
This question has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.
EPU’d – OT
GSD – You out did yourself with prime, grade A Snark in the comments section over at Think Progress. I hope I have your blessing to post it here because I think it is suitable for framing.
“Here let me fill you in on this guy. He’s a coward, a traitor, a Clintonista, a partisan Democrat, he gave money to Tom Daschle and Ted Kennedy and Joseph Stalin, he is gay, he’s a hack, he got his job by being a suck-up, he has a book for sale, he is out of touch, he is a thug, a goon, a thrid world dictator wannabe, he looks like Noriega, Pinochet, Khaddaffy, Idi Amin, he’s selling a new book, he hates America, he hates freedom, loves Al Qaeda, he is French, Muslim, queer, blah,blah,blah…..
I was just trying to save our resident trolls some typing.â€
-GSD
Comment by GSD — April 24, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
Great Stuff – (polite golf clap)
Jane – stunning post. Frankly, I think exposing these horrible deeds done in the name of our country is not a crime. I would hate to hear these people say some future day, “I was only following orders.” How many asked how could that go on with no one speaking out. In my mind she (Mary McCarthy)is a patriot and a hero.
One thing that gets ZERO coverage in the US is the ICC (International Criminal Court) and the fact that the US is refusing to support it. The quick description of the ICC is here.
The problem is that the US doesn’t like the idea of holding individuals accountable for war crimes, genocide, and the like, unless we get veto power over who is tried. Here is the US problem:
The US has been (and should be) out in front on issues like this. However, we aren’t the country we used to be. Even Clinton was worried about the issue, but Bush knows he is committing war crimes and so won’t support any accountability for his actions.
Everyone is still distracted with that “Bright Shiny Object” of Mary McCarthy leak and the Real Story of the secret prisons, torture and rendition.
Look behind the fool with the “Bright Shiny Object” ….. go ahead and look away… OH Sh*t someone has been doing @#$% in OUR NAME?
Question: How much as the level of violence and torture on TV, Video games & Movies changed the publics perception of the acceptability of that type of behavior? I am not blaming the entertainment industry in whole, just that this struck me really hard when I came back from living in Europe for three years. I was shocked how much of it is all around us. You have TV shows that make it look very acceptable, movies and Video Games that are designed around violence.
There have been books about the Militarization of our society, I see this with the TV shows of “The Unit”, “E-Ring” and even “NCIS”.
Here’s the story on the CNN poll- apparently it was NOT from Gallup.
rw — gallup cancelled its partnership with cnn cause of low ratings … lol.
“The news of the CNN/Gallup poll breakup became public today when an internal memo made its way on TVNewser.
According to the post, CEO Gallup Jim Clifton wrote to employees: “We have chosen not to renew our contract with CNN. We have had a great relationship with CNN, but it is not the right alignment for our future. …. CNN has far fewer viewers than it did in the past, and we feel that our brand was getting lost and diluted,” Clifton continued. “…We have only about 200,000 viewers during our CNN segments.”
Pachacutec #25,….
…We can’t give it to them, and we can’t assume we’ve changed the tenor of the nation even with one or two successful election cycles…..
Who was it that said the price of freedom is eternal vigilence ??
Gasoline Prices Drive George W. Bush’s Disapproval Ratings To Record Highs
George W. Bush’s disapproval ratings are at the highest level of his presidency as over eight out of ten Americans say higher gasoline prices are having a negative impact on the national economy and their personal financial situations according to the latest survey from the American Research Group.
Among all Americans, 34% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 60% disapprove. When it comes to Bush’s handling of the economy, 31% approve and 64% disapprove. Among Americans registered to vote, 34% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 60% disapprove. When it comes to the way Bush is handling the economy, 32% of registered voters approve of the way Bush is handling the economy and 63% disapprove.
American Research Group.
bkny,
Not only is torture morally reprehensible and illegal, it doesn’t work. So you have to wonder what were these guys thinking. We threw away our basic beliefs and values, made common cause with the worst scum on the planet, and can’t even argue expediency. What were they thinking?
too eloquent to let go without comment jane, I am brought to tears
will link as possible to this great peice
I’d like to personalize a bit of your opening paragraph:
“But there is something so deeply wrong and at such dissonance between what I we grew up to believe in and still believe in what this government is now engaged in.”
The behavior of this government is a personal affront to me, an attempt to crush everything being a human being is supposed to mean.
There are those who argue torture like ‘it’s nothing personal, just politics.’ Screw that. If I don’t take torture personally but keep it in the rhelm of the theoretical, this administration will have won and I (and you) will definately have lost.
With GW Clusterfuck at 32% approval- imagine what will happen if Rove gets indicted this week. Dum- de- dum- dum!
ratbastahd:
go over to taylor’s last post here and read #115. it spells out pretty clearly why mccarthy didn’t follow the chain of command with her expose’. the sum of it: she would’ve been co-opted, booted out anyway and ridiculed before anything substantitive became public.
“who petulantly assert their right” …. It’s interesting, I originally read this as “perpetually”….I don’t think there is much of a difference….
Jane,
I just want to say, great post. I can’t stay for the discussion though, it makes me too sad.
I want my country back. The one I grew up in. The one where we were the good guys, liberators.
To all the trolls on the last thread worried about Mary O. McCarthy “breaking the law”, everything the Nazis did was “legal” under the German law at the time.
What the Founding Fathers did, was a hanging offense.
I’m glad Mary O. decided she would rather “break the law” like the Founders, than “obey the law” like a freakin Nazi.
Dave @ #8
The only acceptable wingnut leak would involve a Democratic President and a blue dress. Or as WaPoo would say, “A Good Leak.”
From MyDD — Wall Street Bets On The Democrats
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/24/15752/3080
Horrible and shameful. And hard as it is to look at pictures and read about this, we absolutely need to know what our country is doing in our name. This is what we learned about as children – when we learned about Nazis, about Stalin, about oppressive murderous regimes. We were always able to say “in America, it’s not like this”. No more.
Bush, Cheney, Rummy, anyone responsible for these atrocities should be tried for War Crimes at the Hague. And anyone who goes along, who does object, is also guilty.
This is filthy criminal behavior.
McCarthy denies leaking:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12…../newsweek/
This is getting strange….
Sorry, but that’s just not true. The ranking members of the appropriate committees are briefed. If you look at the quote it says “open testimony”.
If one wants to disseminate a secret, telling Congress is guaranteed to spread it far and wide. As Schumer put it….
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
Perhaps we should change the policy regarding people that shoot at us, to rooms at the Plaza,
and giving up after asking “pretty please”.
Sad, and sobering. Jane, once again, you have succinctly stated the depths that this Administration has sunk to in “defending Freedom.” What those in favor of this odious policy refuse to see is that what we do to others will be visited upon our men and women in the military. When that happens, the Bush cheer leaders will again refuse to acknowledge our role.
Torture does not work. Never has, never will.
I want my country and it’s foundation in law back.
ITMFA!
kittenstomper-in-chief
Why exactly do we need secret torture prisons? We needn’t need them against Stalin or Hitler. Have we captured Magneto or Lex Luthor? If I recall, a regular ol’ prison was good enough for the likes of Eichmann and Goebbels. We didn’t need an Invisible Fortress of Solitude for the guy who PLANNeD THE LONDON BLITZ. Why do we need one for Kabul cab drivers and the like?
Thanks for this post, Jane. In some ways, the torture debate was set back by the McCain amendment since, after the negotiations, etc. the law was passed and then spurned by the president in his signing statement. At that point, it seemed like the senators felt like they had done all they could, and all the blood was on the president’s hands after that. The public generally went into a “see no evil” mode, basically hoping that the torture would stop, but feeling like there wasn’t anything they could do about it. It is true that there is not very much we can do about it, just as there is very little that we can actually do about the administration making plans to invade Iran, etc. However, posts like this one are helpful to keep the issue alive and to frame it in a meaningful way. Of course we all want to protect our country. The hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy of those who would tell us that protecting our country requires abandoning our most basic beliefs in the sanctity of human dignity must be exposed on a regular basis. The fact is that our government is engaging in torture in our names. Acquiesence is participation.
peace,
jim
Oh the depravity.
I’ve been an expat for 12 years now and I just don’t recognize my own country anymore. I am repulsed. Ashamed.
And people here (France) still have such a well of good feeling for the US, and rationalize it by saying, well, our country is in such a mess too.
But France is not in fundamental crisis, in danger of losing itself. The magnitude and the sheer amount of destruction is heart-rending, as from afar you see the entire fabric of America torn asunder, degraded by those who are supposed to protect and defend the country.
There is no excuse to support these criminals. The only heartening part of this moment is the reaction it has generated in people like the generals and Mary McCarthy, and even the CIA, who simply cannot continence the criminality any longer.
What does it say of us as a nation that the CIA has become a bulwark against our own government’s lawlessness?
No longer are we the shining city on the hill. This has stained us for many generations.
This regime and its attendants are:
Morally Bankrupt and Perverse
That is all.
shooter242 — enjoying the pretty pictures, are you?
OT — but when is Christy due back? I’d send her an email to tell her how much I’ve missed her posts, but you don’t have email links on the page or on the author line of your posts any more.
Shooter, shooter, shooter.
Explain to me in 50 words or less why the guy in the picture is worse than Herman Goering.
I think many refuse to accept what is really happening. They see the pictures and think: “Gee, that isn’t so bad. I’ve seen worse on 24.”
What they do not think about, or even want to think about, is what isn’t captured on film.
The TRUTH will set us free! Keep up the great work, Jane and Christy.
By way of Raw Story, this intriguing story about Mary McCarthy, who apparently denies being the source of the leak, as mentioned below:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12…../newsweek/
Secrets of the CIA
A former colleague says the fired Mary McCarthy ‘categorically denies’ being the source of the leak on agency renditions.
WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff
I really hate right-wingers and Bush, Gonzalez and Rumfeld, etc. for making Americans have to explain to other Americans why torture is murderous and criminal. I’m not even convinced that the majority of detainees are “guilty” of anything but being caught in the wrong place and the wrong time and can only be tenuously linked to Al Quaeda at best.
hugh#35:
during the initial period that american torture was debated, it was always debated by political operatives/hacks. there were never any representatives from human rights groups or the trauma specialists who work with torture victims to debate the newly adopted policy. the portrayal and advocacy of torture by these pigs was deliberately uninformed and calculated.
“ratbastahd:
go over to taylor’s last post here and read #115. it spells out pretty clearly why mccarthy didn’t follow the chain of command with her expose’. the sum of it: she would’ve been co-opted, booted out anyway and ridiculed before anything substantitive became public.”
Thanks farhender! #116 methinks. Anyways, yes, I agree with that. Just to be clear, I support McCarthy in leaking THE TRUTH. I can only imagine the atmosphere in the CIA these days, and if they are truly checking into party affiliation, straight to the press is how I would have acted as well. But I also imagine I would have asked for an official meeting with my superior, and expressed my concerns about the matter. Ya gotta figure they’ve seen the swiftboating methods of their opponents so eliminate as much smear potential as possible.
I am speaking out because of the civilians that we incinerated at Fallujah.
Prisoner abuse shows the callous disrespect this administration has for not just Moslems, but anyont brown who might not speak english.
A deeper problem, if that is imaginable, is emerging, and Karl Rove is without a doubt, pursuing a racebaiting agenda that extends to making the “illegals” Hispanics an object to focus fear and hate on, and give the immigrant issue priority so the soaring fuel prices and scandelous profiteering will escape media focus. Already, very virulent and troubling headline grabbing items are appearing in papers and on the internet..hispanics writing letters grounded in white supremacist thinking, violet video games telling the defender to blow away immigrants…something evil is being kindled by this Rove technique of raising hatefilled chimeras///remember the techniques for beating McCain in the south–he had a mixed color family…the swiftboaters…there has been no reversal of Rove…if anything he is making ever more broad appeals to the most repugnant and hatefilled elements of this country.
Here is an interesting detail on the McCarthy saga from the Isikoff piece:
At the same time, some former officials said, the use of polygraphs on officials inside the inspector general’s office is potentially controversial, given the fact that the inspector general is by statute supposed to be an independent officer. “This gives them [CIA management] entrée to the I,.G’s office which they’re not supposed to have,†said another former agency official. But a former CIA Inspector General, Frederick Hitz, said he was polygraphed by the FBI over the leak of a report the internal watchdog’s office produced on Soviet mole Aldrich Ames in the mid 1990s. Hitz says that security concerns would override concerns about the IG’s independence.
Agree with Dave #8:
>> “Is there anything the U.S. government could do, which would compel you to support a CIA agent leaking to the press? If not secret prisons where torture happens, how about kidnapping, torture, and murder of American citizens?”>>
Rendition, torture, causing people to be “disappeared” are things for which we have regularly criticized totalitarian regimes. IMO the American people need to know these things are been done in our name.
I find it particularly appalling that there is not more popular outcry about these horrors.
Ohdave #7–you’re right. We need to highlight the hypocrisy of the “selective values” of the “morally righteous”.
Really appreciated Mary and lhp’s postings about the legality of classifyng illegal activity. Thanks.
And just when you thought that things might get a bit better – with US forces raiding an Iraqi backed torture site last November and Chairmen of the JCS stating very uncategorically that US soldiers were required to intervene to stop abuse, even though it made Rumsfeld get that confused – “where’d I leave my keys†look, we find out that yes indeed, just like The Generals have mentioned, chain of command allows breaches of Military Code of Conduct as well as UCMJ all to accommodate Rumsfeld’s mumblings. *sigh*
http://tinyurl.com/j3e68
U.S. and Iraqi inspectors have discovered abuse of prisoners in detention centers run by
Iraq’s Interior Ministry that were visited as recently as February, the Washington Post reported on Monday. Citing U.S. and Iraqi sources involved with the inspections, the Post said U.S. troops did not respond by transferring all of the detainees to safety . . .
Leaving some of prisoners in centers where their abusive treatment was discovered has prompted inspectors to ask whether the military is following a pledge made by Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Peter Pace in November that U.S. troops would try to stop any inhumane treatment they saw, the Post said.
“They tell us, ‘If you leave us here, they will kill us,”‘ the Post quoted an anonymous Iraqi official as saying.
I don’t think the was any ‘debate’ about torture. Gonzales created a ‘legal’ document; others in DoD did the same. I should make sure I have them memmorized.
Names that will ‘live in infamy.’
Is there anyone here who speaks “shooter”?- I can’t understand a word it is saying.
shooter 242 #46
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
I gave up believing this administration 47 lies ago. Everyone knows Cheney fought the McCain amendment tooth and nail. Bush’s signing statement said flat out he could do whatever he wanted, despite congress’ cute little laws.
Jane, great post. Glenn Greenwald always has astoundingly great stuff.
#41
Thats exactly the message we need the Democrats ( or someone) to get out for the 2006 midterms:: “This is NOT my America. I want my country back.”
This torture stuff came from the top down and we desparately need accountablity. They really want the press to back off on this one, and the rumblings about Dana Priest just make me think there is even more to find out. By the way, no one ever followed up on the student at John Hopkins question to Bush about how to hold private contracters in Iraq accoutable for their actions…He was going to check with Rumsfeld, remember????
Looking at U.S actions in this arena is like looking at a decaying, oozing, stinky, dead, awful thing. It is hard to bear, hard to think about, but we absolutely must.
Oh how we need a leader to step up with the message- we need our country back. What we have become is NOT my America.
I have a question which may have been asked many times before but here goes.
Is leaking classified information illegal if the information that is being leaked is illegal? Is illegal classifed information even allowed by our laws to be classified?
Nine million fdl visits.
Thank you Jane
I think lol
time for a walk in the rain
Thank you, Jane, for engaging this critical subject.
I’ve taken more than a passing interest in torture as a result of my involvement in human rights work in Central America and Southern Africa in the 80’s and 90’s. In El Salvador I heard first-hand accounts of beatings and capuchas (lime-dusted air-tight rubber hoods). In Namibia, SWAPO captives had bricks dropped on their bare feet, and were scalded with the exhaust pipes of APC’s.
Senator McCain experienced beatings and stress positions at the hands of the Vietnamese (who claimed that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply to an undeclared war). Americans notoriously used ‘tiger cages’ and threw Viet Cong prisoners out of helicopters to encourage their comrades to talk. To my knowledge, the methods of Pinochet’s Chile were the most diabolical.
If we practice torture, we are consenting to the torture of our own soldiers. Our irregular forces and ‘security contractors’, such as those who were lynched in Fallujah, can claim no protection. They are simply ‘unlawful combatants’.
We must insist on Geneva standards for all prisoners. They are truly the least of our brethren.
I believe that torture inevitably accompanies conflict. To eliminate torture, we must minimize conflict. To minimize conflict, we must insist on social, economic and political equality. Everywhere.
Guess it’s time to start the contest. Name the date GW Clusterfuck gets his first JAR in the twenties. Better start it fast- the winning date may be tomorrow!
that is one fine slogan, I would fine tune it a bit;
this is not the not my America, this is not the country our founding fathers gave to us, I want my country back
I am a little more verbose then you, but man, your slogan is excelllant
the biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing
Had Enough Yet?
Yes, I have.
Somebody needs to create a blog that shows only the pictures of the horrors that are being commited, the torn and shattered bodies of innocent men, women, and children. The only words allowed would be the date and location of where the picture was taken.
I would suggest calling it: America-The Christan Nation. The biggest supporters of such a “nation” are the largest defenders of these atrocities.
Let everyone see what we have created. The world is watching.
I thought that the decider attached a signing statement to the torture amendment saying that he could still torture if he wanted to.
“Wankers all. The Dems have no policy? Get real guys. You’re on MY side I think!?!?!? It’s pretty bad when the right wing noise machine starts affecting our side so much you start parroting their memes!!!”
I think the Democrats have plenty of policy on paper. What they clearly do not have is an ability to effectively communicate it, especially come election time.
Somebody above mentioned the fact that the Democrats never take a stand until somebody tells them that the notion of their doing so is polling well. This really cuts to the core of the problem. Realistically-speaking, a party only has as much policy as they can effectively communicate to the voters. If they can’t figure out how to package and sell their product, then it could be a friggin’ cancer cure and zip-zip apple-corer all rolled into one, and it’s just going to sit there piled up in a warehouse.
MFM-
We don’t want to start a website that gets all the neocons excited, do we?
Once we’ve cleared the WH and Legislature of the scoundrels who haven’t held feet to the fire over this issue (and God, so many others) I suggest we establish a civil equivalent of the Purple Heart to leaker such as Mary McCarthy. She’s been wounded on our behalf. Nothing less is criminal.
OOps. Anything less is criminal.
Anyone watching CNN? Would love to hear how Wolfie the courageous handled the 32% Clusterfuck poll.
Apart from the fact that this is wrong, it plays right straight into the hands of extremist, violent opponents.
And, BTW, within the last 3 weeks I’ve heard of two Marine officers who are leaving their careers in the US military. Neither will tell their families about what they’ve seen in Iraq. Whatever it was, it was so dreadful that they are walking away from careers.
Jane, thanks for another important post.
ck:A comment for you and some of the others is on the previous thread (#52)regarding last night’s swarming of conspiracy theories. It may have been side-lined during active discussion as it warranted ‘moderation’.
Hope you check it out and the links and that you will consider discussing it in detail some other time.
For now, I have to go…
~
ccow, you mean “watchdog”, or “sentinal of our constitution”, you don’t mean “leaker” (yes I knnow you were tongue in cheek}
If you haven’t already read it, James Yee’s For God and Country: Faith and Patriotism Under Fire is a breathtaking book. It will make you very angry, but it is a calm, measured narrative of a military chaplain trying to do the right thing. There’s a very good review of the book in the December 2005 New York Review of Books.
rwcole 77
Put me down for June 1.
Heartbreaking. Watch this.
No Bravery by James Blunt. Send it to everyone you know.
shooter says:
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
Perhaps we should change the policy regarding people that shoot at us, to rooms at the Plaza,
and giving up after asking “pretty pleaseâ€.
>>>>
How about not invading and occupying a sovereign nation? How about not bombing people including those not shooting at us? just wtf do you believe in anyway? Funny, I think you may be one of those that believe in the contorted golden rule– “do unto others worse than they could dream of doing unto you.” Or maybe the preventive one– “do unto others before they do unto you” or just get revenge wherever the cameras aren’t under the guise of protecting the homeland. ugh.
I subscribe to the Atlantic. About a year before Abu Ghraib broke (or perhaps it was longer — I can’t remember, and I no longer have the issue — they published an article, the gist of which was to assert certain conditions under which torture might be justifiable. I found it pretty disgusting, not least because of the academic, “on the one hand, but then on the other hand” tone it took.
I gave it to a friend of mine, and his comment was “They’re preparing the elites to accept the use of torture, and they’re gonna get the Israelis to teach them how to do it.”
“Yeah,” I said, “that’s what I thought too. Do you suppose they’d really dare?”
Now we know. What’s even more disgusting is that this month’s Prospect, the British magazine, which I also subscribe to, published a very similar article, after Abu Ghraib. What is it with these folks? Treating even your enemies with dignity is the essence of civilization. “Reasons of state” is never an intellectualy respectable defense for savagery.
“As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
Perhaps we should change the policy regarding people that shoot at us, to rooms at the Plaza,
and giving up after asking “pretty pleaseâ€.
Notice the red herring. Straight from his assessment that Bush is against torture (nevermind that signing statement huh? or evidence to the contrary) to giving “rooms at the Plaza” to people who shoot at us. Wow, deconstruction in record time.
And who are these people that shoot at us? You mean the Iraqis shooting at the Invaders, per chance? Are you (brave soul, of whom it has been noted is NOT in Iraq) admitting to us that if your country was invaded you would not fight back? There’s your typical 2006 U.S. Patriot, folks.
vox@#65 – the race-baiting now includes a group of homeless African Americans in LA who’ve just been recruited to join the Minutemen to patrol the border because they’ve been convinced that illegal aliens have taken their jobs and returned them to slave wages.
Jane,
Thank you for your (Redd, and FDL Guest Contributors) outstanding good work. A true beacon cutting through the wingnuts hazy “Bull Shit”.
Because of your articulate writings you’ve inspired me to e-mail, call, and fax my senators Boxer, Feinstein, and expect answers for their positions, and lack of support to Censure the Decider, Iraq fiasco, Katrina, NSA domestic spying, Abramoff and the K Streeting of Congress.
FDL and Fitz are cut from the same cloth. Seekers of truth working in the publics best interest. I take my hat off to you all.
Randy Gorsuch
San Andreas, CA
CNN has Bush’s JAR at an all-time low of 32%:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..16123/9223
I keep waiting for that “bounce” that all the convervative pundits kept predicting when Bush fell below 40% for the first time.
#98
The bounce may be a splat.
JAR may drop faster than we think, but I’m got with just post-Memorial Day (June 1) for dipping below 30.
First week in July, (ie July 4) Bush JAR will be 25 or less (well, a poll tracking those dates, which may appear shortly after…)
oilfieldguy-
That was so sad. What those poor children have to endure regularly makes me cry. I think of what I shield my daughter from seeing and it’s nothing close to what those Iraqi children live through.
Can the shooter242’s of this world be happy about how things are going?
rw, #77 – put me down for Cinco de Mayo.
Bless you, Jane.
My mission and privilege in nursing is to relieve the suffering of those whom nature moves to torture through disease. It is beyond my comprehension and sense of humanity that there exist those who can find any redemptive quality in manmade intentional cruelty. I studied every one of the released photos because I had to face a truth about this horrifying reality and because I understood that I could not fight against it unless I internalized the depth of the torment. How, when we weep and grieve for our loved ones who are suffering, can we as human beings accept the idea of causing the same in another? I know it happens and has happened over time; I know there is much more that Abu Gharaib only symbolizes. What I don’t know is how we have become such soulless beings who can look at a person and not see ourselves.
I am not a citizen of the country where I was born. I am now an alien in some country I cannot recognize.
Dear god. Nixon cratered at 25-29 JAR. The Watergate hearings shaved about 20 points off of Nixon’s approval. I would like, at this time, to revise my previous prediction that Bush bottoms out at 16. I now expect him to slide to 9. If that happens, I expect one of you to buy me a pony.
Rwcole-Change my June 1 to May 18, please.
How often do they poll? Once a week? If so, I say when Rove is indicted.
For people who want to make more noise against war and torture:
There’s an anti-war music video competition on. Info through rawstory and op-critical.com. Should be interesting. Anybody in the DC area with a band? I can do the video.
peace,
jim
(jim_l_preston at yahoo dot com)
Can the shooter242’s of this world be happy about how things are going?
they can, there is cognitive dissonance after all, they can’t accept how tragically they’ve been duped and they will continue in “escalading committment”…it’s just not possible in their minds that they have been marionettes of the puuppeteers and they are duped
cognitive dissonance wll eventually give way to the facts…sadly, not to all puppets, they are lost
sad, but true
cathy,
I was really disturbed when I first saw it too. The faces of war are not reflected in the faces of the fighters, but in the faces of the children. This is what everyone needs to see. No matter what, we should be able to work out our problems short of warfare. Do it for the kids.
Oops- I’m gonna have ta go find a pencil- with an eraser I guess.
We are getting close to the point where the fascists will have no refuge.
That 32% is telling, the door is closing on Bushco and it is the gas prices, but it is also everything else.
Bush adviser Claude Allen is next up on the Grand Old Docket. Another guy with the world on a string, but he wanted more. He was the kind of guy who would get upset about “welfare cheats”. He would tell them to get in the wagon and start pulling.
If Bushco and Rover don’t do something, the military is going to crack. That was what Murtha was saying back in 2005. Now the the 8th general has come forward..General Shalikashvilli has said that Rumsfelds deserves to be critiqued….Much of the military has lost confidence in the leadership.
But I still am appalled at how gleeful large numbers of the purported followers of Christ get when they see nude and humiliated humans. It really sickens me. It sickens me to know there millions of them in this nation.
It sickens me that Bush can recite…3,000 dead Americans as a tragedy that changed everything. Yet, he can blithely talk about “30,000″ dead Iraqis while he is smiling cutting-up in a presser.
He is the Crawford Caligula.
-GSD
It’s time to remind everyone about this study: The Perils of Obedience, courtesy of Stanly Milgram.
There are two reasons for the torture occurring today, 1. despicable people in authority are ordering it to happen and 2. weak people are carrying it out. During my 10 years in the Air Force we were taught the Geneva conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict. We were taught to refuse illegal orders no matter who issued them. Servicemembers have to think about both the letter and the spirit of those treaties and laws.
As a member of a vollunteer force, unless you’re under fire, you have a duty to think about what you’ve been ordered to do, and if you disagree with it you have a right to conscientiously object. That’s how we prevent the abuse of the armed forces by those who have no respect for life or the law.
Watson:
Beautiful words, Watson. That’s my position in a nutshell. The Prince of Peace is quoted as using words to the effect that “what goes around comes around”…
jane, your writing is so excellent. please keep up the great work. and please – less emphasis on “guess bloggers” – they have their own sites, and all the guest posting with linkbacks to their home sites amounts to traffic welfare for their hit-challenged endeavors.
if i want to read more from them, i’ll visit their sites. i come here ’cause i like what you and christy do. and by the way, i’m a huge gilliard fan, so it’s not anything personal – i just prefer your posts to those of guests, whenever possible.
jim preston #106
I have Toby Keith on speed dial. Should I notify him?
Great post! What this administration is doing in the name of our country is on my mind every second of every day, but getting up in the morning and feeling even an ounce of hope would be impossible without blogs like this.
Zennnurse.
Kurt Vonnegut wrote his last book and titled it:
“A Man Without a Country.”
Another humanitarian with hopes dashed on the rocks by the bringers of death.
-GSD
cathy,
I could give a damn whether or not some neocon thrug has an orgasm over such pictures.
I am thinking more of those people who have some schred of humanity left but who never see what is really happening because the MSM isn’t going to show it.
Sometimes people need to be slapped to get them to use what’s between their ears. If it’s out of sight, it’s out of mind.
jane can only do so much and I really like the guest bloogers becuase I don’t have time to visit them all and when jane thinks they have something important to say I trust her judgement
OK- We’ve got a 5/15, a 5/18, and a 6/1 for Clusterfuck slippin below the the black sea of political death. We’ll see who comes the closest.
I think we might try to get together one of those football pools for the time cheney resigns to save the president
I notice shooter never did explain why the poor man in that picture is worse than Goering or Eichmnann. He just fled.
rwcole-what do you think GW bottoms out at? And if we guess right on your first-day-in-the-twenties sweepstakes, what do we win?
rwcole @ 77 – put me down for May 10th – or the following week. That ought to give time for Enron legal proceedings to get a bit more coverage, Rove to be indicted, and more $3/gal locations…
At least, those are the Tea Leaves I’m looking at this moment…
rwcole,
5/2/06 ; )
MFM-
Those torture pictures are already all over the internet. What we need to get people to change their minds about this war is show the coffins coming home. That is not obsene and can be shown on the news every night. Or show that video that oilfieldguy linked to. The children in that video would break anyones heart.
Just finished “American Theocracy”. Not an uplifting book- unless youj are partial to economic meltdown- but very well argued- and very relevant.
If Phillips is right- we are enjoying our last few years as the economic superpower of the world- and are about to be the United Kingdom of the 21st century- a population of candy merchants getting together in the evenings and talking about how we used to be great before GW Clusterfuck.
don’t know about rooms at the Ritz for guys who shoot at us, but can we change that policy where we pick up cab drivers and beat them to death, over days crippling their legs and yet leaving them tied so that if they don’t stand on their “pulverized†(quoting the med exam) legs they suffocate AND at random intervals going in and beating those already pulverized legs some more?
NAH, that would require the right to quit believing in the torture fairytale as an option of beating prisoners bought off of druglords to death vs. buying al-Qaeda candy bars and soda and giving them 4 star accommodations. Of course, if you buy that as the “only options†then really, it makes since to buy that the US has to pattern on Fascism or replace Congress with the Care Bears. You’d laugh if it weren’t so sad and pathetic that people make those kinds of Limbaughesque statements all the time.
The “believability†thing has so many factors, but I’d say a few are:
>Gonzales putting in print that the Administration would be found guility of committing war crimes if they couldn’t come up something like a “no rules for enemy combatants†concept.
>Mora’s story and the summary meeting with all branches of the military and lawyers, all asking for a return to the UCMJ and Code of Conduct (gosh- as if they had somehow left it?) and being overridden by Cambone and Haynes, who cited the War Crimes Act liabilities.
>Signing statements on torture legislation saying, “nope, not if I don’t wannaâ€
>Since when is Cheney, who actively and openly lobbied for pro-torture statutory language, not a part of the “Administration that is on record as being against torture.â€
>Would that be the same Administration that is on record as saying, “wiretaps will be pursuant to a warrant�
>Would that be the same administration that still has the mobile labs memo “classified†bc they are so truthful and committed to the “whole story�
>Would that be the administration where the Sec of Def, on 9/11, is giving Cambone instructions, which get written down, to use the incident as a springboard for Iraq?
>Would that be the truthful guys like Rice and Cheney who told us that the aluminum tubes had “no possible us†for anything other than nuclear weapons?
>Would this be the administration that told us that Libby and Rove absolutely had nothing to do with talking to reporters about Plame?
>Are we talking the Administration that fought the 9/11 commission, refused to send Rice forever and then set limits on her testimony, had to have Cheney chaperone the President and tried their darnedest to cover up the “Al-Qaeda Determined to Attack†memo?
>We wouldn’t be talking the President who, as Govenor, laughed, snorted about and mocked the woman to whom he was denying pardon would we?
> The admin with the AG who smiles and smirks in testimony about torture and who pretty much used the *it must be a hypothetical, I’ve never even thought of such a thing going on in the administration* series of answers to Feingold and Durbin WHILE UNDER OATH?
>Couldn’t be the administration that hid the “Curveball†identity information in the reports on his intelligence from CIA and State, bc both of them had already put him in the unreliable category.
>Not the administration that covered up the German handler’s assessments that Curveball was unreliable when it passed on the info to Congress in the NIE?
>Surely not the administration that has secret rooms at ATT sites for unadulterated wiring pleasure?
>Surely we don’t mean the administration that said, hey – that stuff we just told the Gang of 8, no one actually objected – then sat pretty darn quiet when letters of objections were produced?
>Not the administration that has been paying of journalists to plant stories – not just abroad but here at home?
>The admin who has worked with the military to come up with “at home†audience psyops releases?
. . .
Sheez – what kind of maroon wouldn’t be all trusty with the truthy guys?
No more than you enjoy publishing them.
zennurse 103
Bless you. You have far more fortitude (read: ‘guts’)than I. You render such service in ‘real life’ and then are able to deliver such grace and wisdom to the rest of us.
Cleter- I’ve been thinking that 29% is rock bottom for Clusterfuck- but now I’m not so sure- looks as if he still has plenty of air under him as the pilots say.
Everybody should link that #92 video in their mailbox and send it to everyone they know. I think it’s the most powerful bring ‘em home message I have ever seen.
rwcole-
Don’t forget my *when Rove is indicted* date.
I have noproblem with guest bloggers because:
a) it allows Jane and Redd to strive for a semblance of sanity in their respective lives
b) the quality of the guest blogs is excellent
c) the different voices are good to hear; even if the tone is different
c) the comments have nearly the same ebb and flow
d) it’s always a delight to discover that the hosts have returned
what’s not to like?
rwcole: I’m in for May 24th…about the time gas will climb well over $4.50 gal/unleaded most places.
Dilawar and oh so many, many others, R.I.P. ;(
But…but…what if there were a nukular bomb hidden in Times Square, okay? And what if the only way to find it and disarm it was to torture someone? And what if Jesus Christ Himself descended from heaven and TOLD you to torture that person? And what if Christ told you that he was going to kill all the puppies in the world if you DIDN’T torture that person? And what if…
rwcole-
I think somebody claimed Cinco de Mayo (May 5).
I want my pony to be brown and white. Mostly brown, but with a white nose. And not too small. But not too big, either. I don’t have a huge yard.
mfm @ comment 80
I have such a blog.
Click my homepage link then click on the link that says “my other blog”
I have to ask why the citizens of a country that does this to its own people are so surprised that it’s being done abroad.
(If for any reason you can’t watch the video, there’s a brief synopsis by the documentary’s author, Deborah Davies, at that link)
Don’t forget the ritual beatings
Instead of clearing the court or removing the defendant your federal judges get them fitted with a electic stunner and zap them,.
rw, put me down for Cinco de Mayo.
Watson:
We must insist on Geneva standards for all prisoners. They are truly the least of our brethren.
Beautiful words, Watson. That’s my position in a nutshell. The Prince of Peace is quoted as using words to the effect that “what goes around comes aroundâ€â€¦
———————————————————-
I thought we did that when we signed the Geneva conventions, no?
Cleter- thanks- I had it down for 5/15. Corrected.
Meta- got it- and what color of pony do YOU want?
It may have been mentioned already, but what is the reliable attribution for the photo accompanying this thread? I want to send it to my senators (Frist and Alexander, yes I know it’s almost a lost cause) but would want to tell the staff readers what is the link. Otherwise, it could be viewed a gratuitous use of someone’s pain and suffering.
We can always rely on Shooter242 for trying to bring things to the lowest common denominator.
Heckuva job Trollie.
-GSD
RWCole, just about 2/3rds through the book. Ask not for whom the bell tolls.
What kind of sick fucks has this country been quietly producing over the last half-century or more that we’re suddenly seeing people (including the President of the United States himself) actively seeking to justify the kind of torture that once defined our enemies? Bamboo shoots under the fingernails, car batteries hooked up to one’s balls, beating people to within an inch of their lives… wasn’t that always held up as an illustration of precisely what we were NOT?
Was that not the sort of thing that soldiers were always told that they were defending our nation against?
What sort of defectives have we been producing that this suddenly has become something that it is considered “patriotic” to defend?
Then there’s this The Real American Gulag Torture in U.S. Prisons: Common, Lethal, Unreported
and this
You do it to your own people for God’s sake.
rwcole 125
Just finished “American Theocracyâ€. Not an uplifting book- unless you are partial to economic meltdown- but very well argued- and very relevant.
On the same topic, I’m taking the liberty of recycling something from yesterday:
Speaking of looking into the future, this piece by James Fallows in the Atlantic was gripping reading last summer. It’s finally available on line. Highly recommended, and scary.
“Countdown to a Meltdown
America’s coming economic crisis. A look back from the election of 2016″
In the telephone poll of 1,012 adult Americans carried out Friday through Sunday by Opinion Research Corporation for CNN, 32 percent of respondents said they approve of Bush’s performance, 60 percent said they disapprove and 8 percent said they do not know.
–
What will it take to catalog those 8% into the disapprove column. Makes one wonder…..
The “When Rove is indicted” entry is- well- irregular. If Fitz issues an indictment on- say a wednesday- then is that the day being picked? or is it the following friday? Getting complicated- and where the hell am I going to get the pony?
mary #126
like I said, 47 lies ago.
Mary 126
Now THAT is a screed! Well done. You go grrrl!
And it has the advantage of fact. Reality-based, as folks are wont to say. The truth.
rw,
“where the hell am I going to get the pony?”
http://www.ironwoodponies.com/
LOL
“Geneva conventions”
They were rendered quaint and the definition of torture was “defined down” as the rightwing used to say about what the left has done with “deviancy”.
-GSD
By the way, Bush is taking a meat cleaver to his base with his stance on immigration. Just like his Dubai Ports deal.
We’ve reached the point in the thread where I agree with GSD.
I notice shooter re-merged briefly, but not to answer my question. I’ll try again. Shooter, why is the guy in this picture worse than Goering? We didn’t torture Goering, or whisk him off to some secret black-ops prison. Why do we need to do that to these guys?
rwcole-
OK. The day Fitz has a news conference telling the world that Rove is indicted. And I don’t want a pony. I’ll take a hybrid car.
It never fails to amaze me when I recall how this administration used to talk (with horror!) about Saddam’s torture and rape rooms. I remember seeing video of soldiers walking around the empty Abu Gharib prison shortly after the takeover, them talking disgustedly about “here’s where it all happened” and pointing out places that they suspected as being bloodstained. Now US troops are ordered to do the same thing that so disgusted them, with the premise being that whomever they picked up were “the bad guys” and torturing them would result in the gift of information on the insurgency and save American lives.
Well, 999 times out of a thousand that’s just complete bullshit. We’re building an opposing army at speeds that would never be possible using any other methods. You’ve got to ask yourself just why our *leaders* are trying so hard to develop enemies that will think of nothing more than how to kill Americans for the rest of their lives. You’d have to be a half-wit, nay, a quarter-wit to think that picking innocent people off of the street, torturing and humiliating them would eventually lead to them becoming docile and the area becoming peaceful. These assholes are going WAY out of their way to make sure that we’ll *always* have an enemy to fight, *always* have a need to pump trillions of bucks into the Pentagon and their allies in industry, *always* have a need to surpress freedom in our own country (”hey, freedom is just too dangerous to have anymore…”).
What it all comes down to is a textbook example of a “class war”, where the self-styled “aristocrats” control the rest of us, live off of the money that we work hard for and where they control the flow of information in order to keep the opposition from getting organized. I don’t know if you’ve noticed it but the deeper down Bush’s numbers go, the more bizarre the ideas coming out of this administration get. You hear the talk about impeachment rising over the past few days? He’ll never allow that to occur, he’ll slam martial law down on us before it could ever happen. Things are getting way dangerous bros, brace yourself because there’s a shitstorm the likes of which history has never seen heading straight for us.
WWJT?
Whom would Jesus torture?
(Thinking back upthread to 19.)
Part of the reason that it is hard to make cogent arguments against the whole black-site-torture- disappearance apparatus is that the apparatus seems to make so little sense.
The people they have in the system have very little value, either as sources of intel or as criminal suspects. There is no reason that most of them are being held.
The people that probably should be held haven’t been caught, or have been let go. They have more value to the administration as bogeymen than as prisoners.
And torturing the people that we’re holding just makes no sense at all, except that Rummy and General Miller seem to like that sort of thing. The best construction you can put on our torture of prisoners is that it’s a hobby.
The whole thing is just so stupid and senseless that it’s hard to know where to begin to attack it.
Bush, Cheney et al have no particular interest in governance, of course. Their interests lie in rewarding their friends and consolidating power, not running the government. So stupid and senseless policies that benefit only Halliburton are not that surprising to me. I must say, however, that it surprises me that so many in the CIA and the military are allowing these activities to go on, to the obvious detriment of the military and the intel community. Someone, somewhere must say that this is illegal and immoral and should be stopped, and I would like to think that someone in the army or the pentagon or in Langley would stand up. Maybe that’s what we’re seeing. I don’t know.
If any of you missed the James Blunt video referred by oilfieldguy above, I suggest you watch it.
I just finished crying, and now I am FUCKING PISSED.
I feel like I did after 9/11, when living just outside NYC I watched the smoke billow upward knowing brothers and sisters, fathers and mother were dying and I was powerless.
Given that this guy loves to look like the town sheriff who rescues everyone from the bad guys, I wouldn’t be surprised if he helped engineer the current price hike only to eventually come in and “save the day” by coming up with some photo-op spin that makes it look like he was responsible for bringing prices down. Of course, his risk with that strategy increases as the high-price duration increases. Even his supporters would bail once their wallets contain nothing but dust.
This kind of leads me to the reasoning of his putting nukes on the table as an Iran option. He can’t afford to have a conflict where more ground troops are necessary. That would require use of the “D-word”, which would assuredly land him in the doghouse at the hand of his own yellow elephants.
rw, I want TWO ponies. With an acre so that they may run free. Tweeedeedeeedeee.
Oh, and dead cat bounce by Memorial Day.
Thanks in advance.
You know what, enough complaining about the guest bloggers. I realize it is your right to have us give up all semblance of a normal life and be here at your beck and fucking call 24/7 because you pay so very damn much for it but we selfishly will just have to insist on a break once in a while.
Shut up and give some respect to people who show up here for nothing. What exactly do you think entitles you to be so goddamn rude? Really I’ve just about had it and this is all the civility I can muster in the face of such arrogance. It’ll only go downhill from here.
I can’t imagine that there is anything that Bush can do to make his poll numbers rise at this point in the game.
cathy 154
you get a pony for guessing the first day of a Bush job approval rating in the 20s. Rwcole is only taking bets on the pony right now, I think. The hybrid car is for guessing his JAR when he flees the White House forever, pursued by crowds with torches and Frankenstein rakes. I had 16% for that, but I changed it to 9%.
Damn… I kinda LIKE the guest bloggers, meself. Taylor’s posts have been excellent, far as I’m concerned.
Two blogs that cover Iraq and attrocities there on a daily basis.
Today in iraq
News About Iraq
(The second one is run by Susan/Dancewater – she recently received the The Grace Lee Peace Award.)
now I need to get back to researching/writing for tomorrows posts – even I need to sleep sometimesd :-)
g’night folks
*poof*
markfromireland
I liked the guest bloggers. Hell, if you need time off take it.
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
Finally updated…
He’ll fall below 20 at Labor Day…
Then, the ‘October Surpise’ will be the Republicans actually taking up the iWord to save their midterm majority…(and drop it in Jan.)
So in other words, some prisoners were saved by US troops? Wow, good news. Who’d a thunk it.
Compare the Jacobins with today’s neoconservatives. As you read more about the Jacobins from other sources and think about what we are now witnessing, what similarities do you see in those two factions? Let’s begin with this Wikipedia excerpt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobin_Club
Jane, I appreciate all you do and apologies for all those who are a little too clingy to mommy.
“… the biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing. If they are not willing to step into the breech and stand against torture until someone tells them it’s polling well, it’s a terrifyingly apt critique.”
It’s no critique. It’s a test of whether government of the people, by the people, for the people is going to perish from the earth.
Nothing less.
Eddy
Speaking of “American Theocracy”.
Bush relates his views on foreign policy to his belief in the “Almighty”.
Not what I needed to hear today.
Perhaps he can ask the Almighty to target the bombs in order to avoid civilian casualties.
From E & P:
http://www.editorandpublisher……1002385210
-GSD
Before I vanish in a cloud of green white and orange smoke just to remind Jane and everyone else that Eric Blumrich has a huge collection of flash movies, links, presentations, graphics, all of which he begs you to “steal” and use. Jane you must be bored silly with me saying this but I’d love to see you turned loose on some of his graphics.
Now really *poof*
I have to day this, and I’m not sure how. I hope that those who have known me for awhile here will accept my comment in the context of all my other comments.
markfromireland:
I am physically and emotionally hurt when you leave comments like the two above. I think, after so many months of reading the posts and comments at fdl, that you might make some kind of distinction between us and those who have some link to or support for policies and organizations which make the crimes you’ve referenced possible. We don’t. And we, more than most other sites and with the leadership of Jane and Christy, have been doing things and discussing things which have had outcomes in the insulated world of politics. I believe that I appreciate and do my best to understand and empathize with the international (and your personal) view of this very fucked up country, but your comments, to me, project a condescension I don’t think we deserve.
The solution to the mess we have here is not to leave or to be armchair quarterbacks as we see the many faults in our country’s development, as commenters at freeperland and redstate frequently do. Expressions of shame, empathy and support for change do not seem enough, actions intended to illustrate our perspective are not enough so I am left unable to respond except to register my discomfort, with great difficulty. We hate the direction our country is taking and yet we love our country. We are doing our best which is much more that most.
Shooter! You’re back! Answer my question! (at 57 and 153).
Torture, GITMO, all of it – the apologists repeatedly use the “it’s only the worst of the worst, taken in battle†type of response, all of which have been proven to be demonstrably false and all of which are that much more reason to re-institute rules, procedures and guidelines. They don’t just keep us on the right side of depravity, they help make sure we get it right. It’s like executing the “wrong guy†as a serial murderer. Not only a bad thing for the guy who was executed, and the people who end up being responsible for killing someone, but also a bad thing to let the bad guys keep going. As long as they can hug the “it’s just the really bad guys†concept like a toilet on the morning after, they block out anything and everything else. Even the most basic: “How do you know that?â€
Torture, if unstemmed, leads to massacres. Torture, if unpunished, leads to reprisals and vendettas. Our complicity has unleashed all these consequences.
If the Bush Administration goes unpunished for what it has done, what will the world do to us? If the people held illegally and tortured in jails across the world in our name are set free, what will they do after they get out?
It won’t be enough to get the Bush Regime out of office. They must be hunted down and brought to justice, because if they aren’t, our nation will carry their stench and stain–when the world thinks of them, it will think of us.
Jane, Christy and ALL the guest bloggers, I want to thank you for your hard work here at FDL.
IF that idiot thinks it is so easy, then get YOUR own blog, do the research, make sure that you have FRESH content, get the resources, contacts and expertese to put valuble content on your blog……
As someone who was planning a local blog and realized the work involved. To catch the traffic and visability, and not look stale, at least 6 new posts per day.
THAT is why you build a community!
Does anyone think that kos could of become such a large “community” alone?
It is the community of ideas, views and methods that adds to FDL community.
ALSO — You have spotlighted bloggers who someone might not know about, you opened the world to readers and now someone will go to http://www.taylormarsh.com or the other sites to see what is going on.
THE BEST THING- is that you don’t drop posts and “leave the room”. You come around and see what the thread is about, you add your two cents and also note valuble info left by others.
BIG THANK YOU
Frank Probst #135: ‘…what if there were a nukular bomb hidden in Times Square, okay? And what if the only way to find it and disarm it was to torture someone?’
The ‘humane’, cost-benefit response to this hypothetical situation would be torture the captive.
However, this hypothetical situation (in which the type and timing of the bomb are known, as well as the identity of one of the bombers, and the bomb’s general but not specific location) would almost certainly never arise. And if it did, we couldn’t be sure that torture would produce the necessary information. And trained commandos are instructed to hold out against torture for a few hours or a day.
The problem is that torture, once justified by this hypothetical, will then be used in all ‘grave’ situations, such as missing children, or captured soldiers.
People who believe in our soldiers and their officers following all the applicable rules for an occupying force would easily believe in soldiers saving Iraqis who were being abused. Somehow, those rules leave out the “Sophie’s Choice†aspect of who you leave and who you take.
Ooops – there it is. Gen. Pace has sent detailed instructions; they start Eani Meani Mini Mo …
I used to think that a just punishment for those of the cognitively dissonant persuasion would be to drag them screaming into the unflattering light of reality, rendering them transfixed like cockroaches at the nanosecond of the light switch’s flick and forcing either a full reacquaintance with objective truth, or a permanently decompensated intellect.
But now…Far better they are left marooned on islands of ignorance, penned in like scrapie-ridden sheep, doomed to the futility of powerlessness, the mocking laughter of the crowd, and the pity of their intellectual betters as history hands them a nosegay of loser stink.
And to those who decry the fine guest writers of this site – ‘Internets is hard work’… Learn to cope, such loss is transitory.
We need to take our country back from these insane s.o.b.s who are destroying it for the terrorists from the inside.
Please consider going out to canvass for the Dems on April 29. There’s nothing as persuasive as someone knocking on your door to talk face-to-face.
http://www.democrats.org/a/par…..e_canvass/
Well Angie, I don’t believe in a UN “Despots Protection Act” where borders protect some rulers inflicting all the horrors of humanity on their subjects. Mugabe comes to mind immediately. Also, the government in Sudan slaughtering thousands to ensure the Chinese get their oil.
Interestingly, your criteria seems to be ignored by a majority of the Middle East and elsewhere when it comes to Israel. Thusly, I can’t take it too seriously.
I’m on a quick break, but would like to put my $.02 on the guest blogger topic.I probably cannot begin to imagine what it takes to make this place what it is. I CAN make a guess. Jane,for a fact,consitently puts out well thought out, articulate and downright thought provoking posts. I would think that she buys Post-It_Notes by the truckload.Not only the amount of research and digesting and thinking and dissecting of information,but then moderating and following the thread. Ditto for Christy. Seven Fucking Days A Week. Goddamn right they could use a break. As for the guest bloggers, TOP NOTCH. I agree with Jane STFU about it.
End of rant.
Cleter 50 – We didn’t need an Invisible Fortress of Solitude for the guy who PLANNED THE LONDON BLITZ. Why do we need one for Kabul cab drivers and the like?
yep
Shooter– we found them, yessirree, we did. And then what did we do– save them? Oh hell no. We left them there. You know why? Cause we are still believers in torture. And in case you didn’t know– lots of people imitated us over there– Danes, Brits and now, heaven forbid, the occupied. Kinda hard to hold the moral high ground, ain’t it? Besides, they are a much vaunted democracy and I guess they get to do what they want now that the Imperial Power has deigned to give them their country back– NOT.
I can say it concisely…
We shouldn’t be torturing people… ever.
I fully agree. I am ashamed that this is what our country does, in our names no less.
We’ve had the link before, but this story goes here. New Yorker story about Alberto Mora and his battles lost with the Rumsfeld cabal on torture and decency.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/…..227fa_fact
Shooter, the torture thing…yeah it happens, but we should not do it ever. Remember what your mama used to say when you whined “Everybodies doing it…”? It is just wrong.
Oilfieldguy -
Also, when we engage in torture, how is that providing an image of change and hope to Middle Easterners that we are supposedly trying to help?
To them it sounds like “meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”
For New York and CA firepups:
1. Peace March in New York
APRIL 29 in New York City
March for Peace, Justice, and Democracy
Unite for change – let’s turn our country around!
http://www.April29.org
Democrats for Peace Contingent gathering for New York March
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/demsforpeace
2. Impeachment Forum in California
The Progressive Caucus of the California Democratic Party Presents: Impeachment: Dialogue, Debate & Action
April 29 at 8:30 PM
The Crest Theater, 1013 K Street, Sacramento, CA
Scheduled to appear on the panel are:
• Representative Maxine Waters
• Shayana Kadidal, lead attorney, Center for Constitutional Rights, and co-author, Articles of Impeachment Against George W. Bush
• Elizabeth de la Vega, former lead prosecutor, San Jose and author of an upcoming book on impeachment
• Bob Fertik, President, Democrats.com & co-founder afterdowningstreet.org
• Mike Malloy, syndicated host of AirAmerica Radio, will moderate
• Opening statement by Tim Goodrich, founder, Iraq Veterans Against the War.
Tickets: $10 donation. You may preorder tickets through at the Crest Theater box office, (916) 442-7378 or at http://www.tickets.com
Portions of this event will be broadcast later on the Mike Malloy Show on Air America. Mike will be discussing the upcoming forum this coming Friday evening.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/9227
Please forgive this digression, but if there is anything to this story, which I found on the Huffington Post – considering its source – it may be important enough to mention now:
http://www.insightmag.com/Medi…..sfeld2.htm
check
And don’t forget that the torture thing doesn’t exactly represent the *democracy* that we supposedly went in there to instill, does it?
NEW YORK President Bush today said he had tried to avoid war with Iraq “diplomatically to the max.”
Speaking to a business group in Irvine, Ca., he admitted mistakes were made in planning for the Iraq invasion, but he defended the troop level, saying “it was the troop level necessary to do the job,” and he would commit the same number if given a second chance.
There ya go- GW Clusterfuck would make the very same mistakes all over again if given the chance. Let’s hope that he doesn’t get the chance.
One note about the Phillips book. Kevin notices that there were great fundamentalist type religious awakenings at the decline of every previous world power. They all felt that they were God’s chosen people. As their nation’s declines became obvious- the fascination with religion cratered. You will see what gets left if you visit London Churches on any given sunday.
So the fundies may be a temporary phenomenon.
Once we- say- clearly lose in Iraq- it will be hard to maintain the charade the God is on our side.
In this way- faith actually is vulnerable to reason.
(Read Peter De Vreis- “Blood of the Lamb” for a novelist’s version of this story.)
186 Matt O. says:
April 24th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
I can say it concisely…
We shouldn’t be torturing people… ever
Yep. No grey area. It’s wrong and has no redeeming intelligence upside. It simply is for savages.
Heartfelt thanks, Jane–and for the reminder to Harmon, as well. Her sanctimony stinks of politics.
It happens that I’m reading The Pentagon Papers at present. As SusanG at DKos reminded us during her interview with Ellsberg, he tried for two years to get someone in Congress to make public the documented presidential lies about the Vietnam War before giving up and going to the press.
Frank Probst # 135
have actually heard that argument from otherwise sane and rational people –
finally I just say, okay, you got it, the ’someone ‘ is a 13 year old girl . . .
works everytime
Torturing people is really not a good thing. It hurts the people who get tortured- but it turns YOU into a monster- a sub human.
rwcole & others -
my gut says 5/19
Just on NBC Nightly News….
Mary McCarthy’s attorney tells NBC’s Andrea Mitchell that Mary categorically denies leaking classified information (presumably about the secret prisons to Dana Priest) and that she never even had access to it…
new fabric in the upstairs apartment
cbl– check. And don’t believe those rumors about the pony.
I was thinking today, now that Bush’s poll numbers are approaching Nixon territory, how will Rove handle it? The answer, of course, is to come up with a new enemy. I don’t think it will be Iran – too risky given how badly the screwed Iraq up. It will be a domestic enemy. Bush doesn’t need to rally the country – just his base. Immigration reform may provide an answer, but that one is tricky. Rove must be squirreled away in his office plotting the next person/people/thing to demonize. I can’t help wondering what or who it will be. In any case, we will get early warning from Fox News and the National Review
“New fabric—”—Oh- new thread! Now if you’d said “New textile” we would have gotten it instantly!
jane_jericho — absolutely, the Ellsberg parallels are I think the most apt, and something we intend to explore.
And thanks, everyone. Sorry I blew my top. I really want to thank Taylor, I couldn’t have done it this week without here help, and Christy really needed the time with her family.
rwcole-
Oh, there will be ponies. There WILL be!
Is “new fabric in the upstair apartment” code for something dirty? Or does it mean “new thread”?
Prisoner abuse is part and parcel of Herr Rumsfeldt’s fleet footed, small, mobile army with sophisticated ordinance plan. Insufficient troop levels insure never ending IED attackes, ergo never ending war.
Not enough troops to really kick ass, and quell the opposing violence. Its a non stop Tom and Jerry cartoon.
Soldier wrenchingly twisting captive rag tag bandito’s ear, “Where is your leader?”
Of course, we get way ahead of ourselves when talking about troop levels b/c an implied accord with the wingnuttia is indicated. No war in Iraq, would have been the best course of action.
Then again, our primary deciderer, and the other misleaders, just plain like some torture (for anyone, but them).
Jane, sorry you had complaints about the guest bloggers. Taylor did a great job, I thought, as well as the others. I don’t see what there is to complain about.
On another topic, why is everyone so interested in feeding trolls today? I don’t get it.
peace,
jim
Sorry Cleter, but it’s usually Americans that are compared to Nazi’s, so I wasn’t making sense of your question. Since you took the trouble to ask three times, I’ll give you my best speculation.
1. How do you know he wasn’t tortured? They may have played loud polkas in the evening outside his cell.
2. In WW2 rules of engagement were followed about uniforms and so forth. Today, anyone and everyone is a potential soldier, that may have crucial knowledge.
3. Goering wasn’t a religious fanatic. I would suspect that once the jig was up he sang.
4. The officer corp presumably had a strict code of honor (unlike jihadists and some Democrats). Interestingly, he committed suicide without trying to take anyone else with him.
So, Jane, next time please try to come straight to the point and tell us what’s really on your mind. Veiled and nuanced entreaties only keep us guessing (if not guesting)….. :~)
Goering and the other high-ranking Nazis weren’t in secret black-ops prisons. Please justify the secret prisons. I don’t get it.
Goering “had honor” and wasn’t a “religious” fanatic? So, it’s ok to torture religious fanatics, or those without honor? How, exactly, do we test for honor, or religious fanaticism? Are we testing for that? What evidence of dishonor or fanaticism do you see in the naked bleeding man on the ground? Are you really saying we should be able to torture “anyone and everyone?” Should we be able to torture people in the War on Drugs? Or only in the War on Terror? Where do you draw the line?
Polka’s are always such bloody affairs.
No doubt best heard while on the ground, with an armed soldier astraddle. It’s why the Polka Weekends are becoming so popular with the Right. That, plus the accordions, peanut butter and guard dogs.
You can definitely see where the right is heading when they “presume†strict honor codes for Nazi officers who were charged with War Crimes, “unlike†Dems. ROFL – there we have it, Reality in the Rightworld.
Guess that “uniters, not dividers†thing tanked?
F: 6th letter of the alphabet
O: 15th letter, 1+5=6
X: 24th letter, 2+4=6
FOX = 666
Strict code of honor? Goering planned and executed the bombing of civilian targets. He was a goddamned state-sponsored terrorism pioneer! And he got a trial with due process and transparency. Why can’t Jose Padilla, or the guys in the secret prisons get that?
I appreciate your sincerity, so I’ll apologize for weaseling up front. I will be the first in line to say torture is a bad thing, but is it wrong in a given circumstance? What are we talking about here? Loud music, lights on all night, cramped positions, waterboarding at worst?
Sorry, but war is about survival. Those prisoners will live another day, your compatriots may not. If you believe that prisoner knows something that can help your guys survive, are you going to meekly accept your collective fates, or try EVERY means at your disposal to live another day?
This is one of those situations where it’s easy to look at it intellectually, but the real answer won’t appear until faced with the reality.
Dilawar did not live another day and I’m just not sure how his pleading “please no more†really put compatriots at risk, but obviously it all goes back to the polka-ing. No wonder Gen. Miller didn’t want to talk about it.
Shooter– what kind of ridiculous argument are you trying to make anyway? Torture is abhorrent no matter who, what, when, or why, but the fact is some do not have laws against it and WE DO. There is no excuse for any American to be involved with it.
Oh yeah, we’re not just talking about loud music, etc. Let the above picture become seared in your brain…that’s not the result of loud music. See ya.
Once again I’m deep in EPU territory, but there was a great segment about the McCarthy leak on the PBS Newshour tonight. I have a new hero, a man named Ray McGovern, who was a CIA analyst for 27 years. He said McCarthy had no choice; she had a legal and moral obligation to try to stop war crimes, and neither the Director nor “Patsy” Roberts would do anything, since they are both on record as supporting torture. If you can find a video clip, please watch it.
On an unrelated point, cleter, if you want a pony, I’ll happily give you one. Well, not precisely a pony; will a smallish horse do and is it OK if she’s not brown? Fair warning, though – there’s no such thing as a free horse. They are the best cure for disposable income ever invented.
One quick parting thought. Pacifism leads one to the Prisoners Dilemma. If all participants are pacific then all is well. But if one decides to be aggressive, all the rest are lost.
Being a pacifist requires the belief that all the participants will be peaceful, particularly if weapons are given up. Needless to say, should someone keep any weapon, they will conquer all at will.
In the end, the only way to unilaterally be peaceful is surrender. Not for me, thank you.
Can horses and ponies live on dead leaves and twigs? ‘Cause my yard doesn’t really have grass.
BarbaraB #217– he is one of my heroes too; I linked twice before today to this
http://www.tompaine.com/articl…..choice.php
KBR/Halliburton bring back slavery! Dick Cheney May Fullfill lifelong dream of becomming an overseer
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld…..413048.htm
And where are our Democrats on the torture issue? Why isn’t every single one of them raising hell about it?
I wonder what religious duty George W Bush is serving by sanctioning torture.
Sorry, cleter. They eat alfalfa and grain, which is why they aren’t really free. Plus vet bills and farriers and tack and…well, you let’s just say you write a lot of checks. But don’t worry about your back yard; I’m sure you can find a place to board a horse. What’s another check? :>)
The torture of people and indefinite detention is wrong. Always.
We lose our moral standing and we are less safe.
Indefinite detention of immigrants is also wrong.
Thanks, Angie — sorry I missed your previous posts. His opponent on the Newshour was a troglodyte, but McGovern was terrific.
Alfalfa and grain! So, the horse couldn’t just roam the neighborhood and forage for itself, eating azaleas and whatnot? Rummaging through the neighbors trash, that sort of thing?
That strategy seems to work ok for my neighbor’s giant horse-sized dogs. Would it work for a real horse?
“What are we talking about here? Loud music, lights on all night, cramped positions, waterboarding at worst?”
Okay, this is just getting fucking stupid. Is this one of the regulars here with a particularly dry sense of humor putting us all on with a cartoonishly-bad impression of a wingnut? Or is this an actual person who is just this flabbergastingly oblivious?
What’s next, Shooter? Limbaugh’s “fraternity pranks” line? Or a long-since debunked excuse for torture that’s even older and more out-of-date than that?
Uh Clem, I think it’s an actual fascist.
Without the risk of hyperbole, we have gone long and far down the slippery slope of fascism at its worst.
And to those who ask the “what if there was a bomb, or a whatever in the middle of whereever …. would torture be justified then?” …. the answer is that in a *civilized* country there is *never* justification for torture. We have a higher standard. That’s the point. It is what we instill in our children. It is what impels our belief in medical miracles. We strive to end suffering, hunger, injustice, religious intolerance, ignorance. Those beliefs are antithetical to torture and murder and the cynical manipulation of the very real pain that people feel when they are on the receiving end of injustice. What is a call to war if not that?
Torture … never. And to cast a blind eye is to live as if one were the very torturer oneself. Certainly that is a lesson of the 20th Century … the complacency of “not seeing” … and sadly has carried over into the 21st. This time ensnaring ourselves in the very thing we purport to strive against. For shame.
Has no one made the distinction between Mary McCarthy and Joseph McCarthy?
Mary and Joseph — Jesus. Excuse my swearing.
death to the Empire
the only way to find justice
Republic must be reborn
war criminals must be tried
to meet the fate
those who have murdered
100,000 children deserve
Jane, this is surely among your best.
I don’t know about you but I was taught that in a democracy we’re the deciders, WE ARE, each of us. How bout some buttons and bumperstickers saying: “I am The Decider, and I vote!â€
“All the Truth asks, and all it Needs, is the Liberty of Appearing” –Thos. Jefferson
This is why we have The International Warcrimes Tribunal in the Hague. The good news is that, unlike Cheney, Bush is going to last long enough for another administration to allow extradition – despite any presidential pardon he may have recieved in the meantime. Extraordinary rendition won’t be needed. Truth and reconciliation – it will take this before this country will be respected once again.
Everything is based on 9/11, 9/11, but what if, as the former German cabinate minister and a number of scientists in the US say, it was staged. The buildings were brought down by the CIA. Sort of makes you wonder. And what are the Rethuglicans gonna do when it looks like they’re gonna lose?
Thanks for the quote from Harmon. It speaks volumes about what’s wrong with many of our political “leaders” — of both stripes. Incidentally, driving to work the other day in Playa del Rey, I noticed a sign for her campaign tackily placed on the edge of what’s left of the Ballona Wetlands, which I mentally marked down as a mark against her.
Your post pretty much sealed my decision on how to vote in the primary. I’d like to see the Democrats have someone in office who stands for some of the things I believe in and condemns the torturers rather than those who bring it to the publics’ attention.
“I don’t know many in the liberal blogosphere whose advertising revenues generated in the free market (as opposed to the wingnut welfare system) even pay for the maintenance of their sites, and those very few whose sites cover their costs could inarguably be making much more money doing something else. But there is something so deeply wrong and at such dissonance between the country we grew up to believe in and what this government is now engaged in that its unspoken presence informs every post, every word, even the decision to get up every morning and turn on the computer…”
you are on the precipice girl,
pull back a little,
pull back!!
neither rome
nor a good weblog was built in a day.
when you begin to worry about offending your advertisers
you are in wapo territory.
commented affectionately and respectfully,
not critically.
post less,
save bandwidth and money.
i’m counting on you all:
and so are thousands of other.
Liars. They are registered members of a party that not only embraces torture but by God carries it out.
They have a choice, stay in and support it or leave. I think they LOVE the power and control they have and wouldnt surrender it for anything – not even for justice and civility. Their party created this policy, they are carrying it out and they as members are actors in this vulgarity.
They just cant argue that they are willing members of the Republican party while rejecting the tenents (torture and much much more) of the party. To do so is to define yourself as something OTHER than republican. For German Nazi’s to have claimed to be nazi’s while rejecting the final solution would have defined them as something other than a nazi.
As long as they are Republicans, they are in fact precisely what their party says they are – by word or deed.
My son, who is a high school sophomore is addicted to 24. I watched a couple of episodes with him this weekend (season 2 is on loan to us from a friend) and it came to me, that it is this television series, probably more than anything else, that has legitimized torture for those who draw their entertainment and their news from FOX.
So we had a discussion at dinner tonight and I explained that despite what he was watching, the reality of torture was far different, and that it rarely, if ever, provided true information. And it was a complete and total degradation of our precious American ideals.
I think he got it, I mean, he started his review of Animal Farm last week with the same Who quote as another astute poster noted above (”Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”).
But I’m not sure that he would have made the distinctions without our discussion. I fear for the many young adults who don’t have the same opportunities to discuss such an important issue with adults who can provide the history, facts, the context necessary to actually see what is going on. This HAS to stop. We are giving up all we have ever stood for as a country.
Excellent post Jane. Thanks!
Thanks to Jane and all the others for great posts. To those on the other side of the torture divide, e.g., Shooter, I echo others’ comments. Torture is wrong under any and all circumstances. If one of my beloved children were captured or kidnapped, I would not want suspects tortured. I believe that my children have been raised to believe that inflicting pain on others is impermissible. I think it is better to lose a person you love than to lose what makes you and that person deserving of love.
Jane,
What a powerful posting, and kudos to Glenn Greenwald.
I am a psychologist. Today I interviewed an Arab man held in custody on the West Coast. He is fighting deportation back to a Middle Eastern country — and Bush “terrorism ally” — that will further torture or kill him. And, btw, this is a country implicated in the Bus rendition policy.
This man is mentally destroyed. Perhaps, should he ever get freed, after many many years he may be able to assemble some semblance of a life for the time left to him. Or he may kill himself, as he wishes to. (I can’t say more because of confidentiality issues.)
The author Joseph Conrad in his book Heart of Darkness peered into the inner recesses of the colonial-imperial order of his day and saw “the horror”. I saw some of it myself today.
Please keep this topic front and center. I’m not religious, but God bless you.
The Future Mrs FeinGORE says:
April 24th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Fitz
To the Future Mrs. FeinGORE. I submit you are almost as bad as those who are doing the torturing. Jane writes a heartbreaking and incredibly moving article about a frightning subject, and you and your stupid, mindless ilk
sabotage, yet again, the entire comments setion with your childish, insensitive little annoying games.
With all the brillilant work Jane and her other bloggers do to present this site, it’s totally undermined by you and your insensitve, silly co-horts.
I really don’t know why FDL allows that. It’s driven away so many from ever reading the comments section and rightly so. I will never do so again myself. Mindless games are a waste of time.
I have a great idea for a new television “Reality” series, called “What did he know, and when did he know it?
In this series, on a network to be named later, the President, Vice President, Defense Secretary, Feith, Wolfowitz, Addington, Libby, Yoo, Gonzales, and a whole bunch of other Bush administration officials would be hooked up to polygraph machines in prime time to find out what did they know and when did they know it, concerning the LIES of our Glorious Leader’s administration.
Of course, a little waterboarding wouldn’t hurt the ratings, but as a precaution, there would be doctors standing by to make sure that there was no organ failure. I mean, while trying to get to the TRUTH, we wouldn’t want anyone hurt, would we? Especially while trying to get to the TRUTH of what the Bush administration has been doing in our name, right? Hey, I just said a little waterboarding. Remember, we have to think with a post-9/11 mentality, like the Bush administration does. I’m sure the producers will come up with something in good taste.
This is a “Reality” series that would assuredly boost the market share of any network willing to run it. And if hurried into production, it might show during May sweeps. I know I’d tune in.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..27_pf.html
Inspectors Find More Torture at Iraqi Jails Top General’s Pledge To Protect Prisoners ‘Not Being Followed’
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, April 24, 2006; A01
BAGHDAD — Last Nov. 13, U.S. soldiers found 173 incarcerated men, some of them emaciated and showing signs of torture, in a secret bunker in an Interior Ministry compound in central Baghdad. The soldiers immediately transferred the men to a separate detention facility to protect them from further abuse, the U.S. military reported.
Since then, there have been at least six joint U.S.-Iraqi inspections of detention centers, most of them run by Iraq’s Shiite Muslim-dominated Interior Ministry. Two sources involved with the inspections, one Iraqi official and one U.S. official, said abuse of prisoners was found at all the sites visited through February. U.S. military authorities confirmed that signs of severe abuse were observed at two of the detention centers….Curry added in a statement:
“At one of the sites, thirteen detainees showed signs of abuse that required immediate medical care. The signs of abuse included broken bones, indications that they had been beaten with hoses and wires, signs that they had been hung from the ceiling, and cigarette burns. These individuals were transferred to a nearby Iraqi detention facility and provided medical care. Most of the abuse appeared to have occurred prior to arriving at that site.
“There were several cases of physical abuse at one other inspection site. These included evidence of scars, missing toenails, dislocated shoulders, severe bruising, and cigarette burns. At the time of the inspection, most of the apparent injuries were months old; however,
there were indications that three cases of abuse occurred within a week of the inspection. No detainee required immediate hospitalization for injuries at that site,” Curry said. “if a soldier at any level sees abuse of an Iraqi somewhere or hears of it . . . we certainly take it seriously and pursue it,” Gardner said. We take it extremely seriously, and part of the goal is to develop a detention process that’s free of abuse.”
Curry’s statement confirmed abuse depicted in accounts and photographs given earlier to The Washington Post by the U.S. and Iraqi officials involved in the inspections, including the dislocated shoulders that the officials said were caused by hanging detainees from ceilings.
“I don’t want to downplay the level of abuse,” Gardner said of the cases found during inspections. “In some of them, there were a couple where it was pretty severe.”Gardner said in a statement. “Cases where the abuse appeared to have been committed within the last 3-4 days the detainees were evacuated for medical attention. We do not leave the facility until we are assured that the detainees are safe from physical abuse at that site.
“During all six inspections other deficiencies were noted and provided for corrective action,” Gardner said in the statement. “We feel these actions are consistent with the comments Gen. Pace made earlier in the year.”…
The Iraqi official involved in the inspections said he saw abused detainees at all the sites visited. At a sandbagged checkpoint in Baghdad’s Green Zone, the official pulled from his pocket a press clipping quoting Pace’s remarks of Nov. 29, unfolded it and read it aloud.
“I want them to do what General Pace said,” the Iraqi official said. Interior Ministry forces and allied Shiite militias have become more adept at hiding detainees and they kidnap victims from inspectors, he said. Iraqis “are looking for some of the Americans to do the right thing,” he added. “Don’t be intimidated by the Iraqi politicians.”
According to the Iraqi official, the Americans initially said they would suspend their policy of removing prisoners from sites where abuse was found until after Iraq’s national elections, which were held Dec. 15, because disclosures of Interior Ministry abuses were politically sensitive. The elections came and went, the official said, and the Americans continued leaving detainees at sites that held bruised, burned and limping prisoners….
There was a site for the fallujah atrocities which changedd its name to THE WORLD IN CRISEES
There was a site for the Fallujah atrocities which changedd its name to THE WORLD IN CRISIS. I could only stand to look at a few photos. The Memory Hole has photos of the torture and the terribly burned and maimed American soldiers that they keep hidden.
Hitler’s Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust (Vintage) (Paperback)
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen “IN THINKING ABOUT German antisemitism, people have a tendency to make important, unacknowledged assumptions about Germans before and during the Nazi period that bear scrutiny…”
Eliminationist antisemitism did indeed arise during roughly the period Goldhagen indicates. However, like the Social Darwinism to which it was so closely related, it was not a characteristic feature of German culture. It was far more a phenomenon found among cranks and sects. Goldhagen does not mention any of the antisemitic writers who advocated the physical destruction of the Jews, but I suspect that fairly typical specimens might be Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels and the other mystical Viennese racists whom we know influenced the Nazi leadership. (There are lots of bad books on this subject. Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke’s “The Occult Roots of Nazism” is good, but perhaps James Webb’s “The Occult Establishment” is still the most comprehensive treatment.) Such people and their ideas might be politely described as a little on the obscure side. You could find people in Germany who thought like this, even people who were prominent, but there were not very many of them. There was no great advantage to blaming the world’s problems on the Jews. Public antisemitism was hardly rare under either the Hohenzollern dynasty or the Weimar Republic, but it did not, for instance, help much in electoral politics. Even the Nazis toned down the antisemitic elements of their program when they saw a practical possibility of electoral victory. Eliminationist antisemitism was important, not as a popular enthusiasm, but as an organizing principle for would-be elites. To paraphrase George Orwell, it was the kind of thing you had to flunk out of college to believe.
And when those would-be elites became actual elites, how did they get the rest of the Germans to kill most of the Jews of Europe for them? Well, they continually shouted the unhumanity of the Jews through every medium of communications between 1933 and the beginning of the Final Solution in 1941. They created an apocalyptic society in which the normal rules of morality did not apply. Then they sent ordinary Germans to destroy a whole people. And the ordinary Germans did it. Perhaps that is the most unnerving lesson of the Holocaust for later generations. It is appalling to think what perfectly sane and pleasant people will do, what you yourself would probably do, if put in a social situation where atrocity is a duty. There has been a lot of psychological research into the willingness of individuals to follow terrible orders. There has been even more into what crowds will do that their individual members will not. Goldhagen dismisses it all as “ahistorical.” He shouldn’t. It is something we must never forget.
http://prairieweather.typepad……ic_vo.html
Former Sen. Gary Hart:
“…We may well lose the US army in Iraq The same withdrawal plan could prevail. I think there is a civil war there. In fact I wrote a piece about a month ago that the New York Times and Washington Post turned down but the Boston Globe ran which said that if we wake up some morning and the whole country has erupted into a violent, countrywide civil war, we could lose our army there. No one’s talked about this. The Army is dispersed through by and large central, but to a degree southern, Iraq. If the nation became aflame, we’ve got platoon-size and smaller units scattered all over the country and the cities to try to pacify them, and they could be cut off. They couldn’t get back to the Green Zone to be extracted. And we could lose the American Army there as Napoleon lost his army in Moscow….” Wednesday, October 26th, 2005
Of all the horrible things that the Bush administration has done, the deliberate torture of prisoners under the guise of fighting terrorism is at the top of my list. It is absolutely sickening to me to see our country’s long, glorious history of supporting human rights perverted by this administration. Their disgraceful behavior deserves nothing but contempt from all of us.
In my opinion, torturing defenseless prisoners is about as low as you can get. As Jane says, anyone that defends it should be exposed for his or her “utter moral bankruptcyâ€. But exposing the lies of the defenders of torture is not enough, nor is it enough just to explain why torture is wrong. In order to engage the public fully in this important discussion we must also remind them why it is in their interest that we treat prisoners humanely.
My thanks to Jane & FDL for taking the time to talk about this crucial issue. I’m hopeful that one day soon those who were responsible for this heinous policy will finally be held accountable. On that day those of us who fought back by speaking out can take comfort that when our country needed us we did not shrink from our duty to defend her.
Zennurse,
I am sorry that you read “you” which in context clearly refers to America as a whole as referring to you personally and to the people here. I even agree with most of what you say. I’ll come back to you on this at some point in the next week or so on one or other of my blogs. I suspect that you may not like the answer you get but ultimately my concern is with the security, safety, and liberty, people here. The greatest threat to that is your country’s misguided behaviour over a long period of time I made the points above to point out that America treats her own citizens in this way and it is therefore unsurpising that she behaves as she does abroad. Nowhere in those comments did I aportion blame to you or any of the other supporters of this site. I regret that your feelings were hurt.
The shame of this is something this country will have a very hard time overcoming. Acts of torture are like a virus and we all have been infected by this insanity. It doesn’t just happen in a vacumn, look at the bullshit being run as entertainment on your television, look at the spokesmen who have risen like pond scum to the top of the food chain. The meanspirited thrust of those in power and the way it permeates our daily lives is shocking when you take a step back and view it in its entirtey
in large part because it gets to the heart of why most [American] liberal bloggers do what they do
You mean use it to score some points when the issue gets raised in the press (yet again), and then quickly forget about it when more value can be gained from hard-hitting issues like what Malkin did this week?
Hypocrites.
Cathy (#195) writes, “And don’t forget that the torture thing doesn’t exactly represent the *democracy* that we supposedly went in there to instill, does it?”
Really? Even as much as people like to presume that democracy is, somehow, only connected to good stuff, there is nothing inherently undemocratic about torture. Really, the idea that whatever the majority wants goes and the idea that abusing, torturing and killing individuals if a larger number see fit to do so seem uncomfortably compatible. I’d love to be wrong on this, but I suspect that a majority in the U.S. are actually in favor of secret prisons, torture and the like.
For what it’s worth, I’m a good deal to the “right” of many here but I’m every bit as disgusted with this as anyone else. It’s telling that the same people who claim to believe that values are absolute and not subject to cultural construction or circumstantial revision consistently resort to amoral and legalistic defenses of these kinds of activities.