I watched the 60 Minutes segment tonight on the Niger uranium intelligence and thought it was very much of a piece with the Rolling Stone Worst President In History cover — a simple, direct narrative that will reach millions of Americans and let them know that they have been duped. We talk about this stuff all the time on the blogs but it’s not often things this clearly damning are so widely disseminated. Shock waves feel like they are starting to ripple out and it’s hard to know how far they are going to extend.
If you didn’t catch it you can see part of the video at C&L and read about it here. They interviewed Joe Wilson but didn’t get into the exposure of his wife as a CIA agent — they kept it quite simply about the intelligence on Niger uranium, the 16 words and the myriad sources who told the Administration that the claims were bogus from the get. As Atrios notes there’s nothing really new, but it does play havoc with claims of the authoritarian cultists that Bush acted in good faith, relying on credible intelligence. In the wake of all of the mounting evidence to the contrary, their sad little sputtering cries of "but….but…the SSCI report…Robb/Silberman…many many committees…." really just go to reinforce what a pile of partisan hatchet jobs all these investigations were to distort their findings so blatantly and overlook everything they knew then (but we are only learning now).
To all the newcomers: welcome to the party.
Update: As others have noted, the Swiftboating of Tyler Drumheller is likely to be centered around claims that he’s just pimping his new book, On the Brink: How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence. Should be an interesting read.
(photo corrected by Sadly, No!)
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Fitz! I did it!
Good 4 u
fitz ‘em if ya got ‘em.
Just who in the HELL is that guy???
I’m glad I don’t know, but now I have to ask.
Kazuza
Oh, it’s the whistleblower isn’t it?
Is that Baron Harkonnen? Man, if House Harkonnen is bailing on Bush, he’s really in trouble.
Kazuza?
What’s a Kazuza?
Do you play ‘Yankee doodle’on it?
as jane says….
We talk about this stuff all the time on the blogs but it’s not often things this clearly damning are so widely disseminated.
The wheels are coming off..slowly yet surely
beware the wounded cayotes
I saw the program and also thought it was simple and direct and on topic. Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency- did a good deed. Hope he has himself a good set of oars, for the swiftboating is likely to come pretty fast. Hannity will be calling him a traitor tomorrow night and Rush will have him hung out to dry by lunchtime and Coulter will want to send him abroad with a Katrina “refugee” under each arm. Thanks Tyler!
He is Tyler Drumheller and one hell of an American, imho. Great interview.
(CBS) When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.
He tells correspondent Ed Bradley the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president’s determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not.
I watched the 60 minutes segment and agree, Jane. It was a clear, lean, line of narrative. Wilson, again, is, as always to me, credible. I don’t know about shock waves, but the steady drip, drip, drip, is buckling the floorboards. Eventually, they’re gonna give to expose the rotting foundation. Whatever supporters remain will not be able to fight on every front, every day. The leaks are multipyling.
boy, i hope this had a big audience. this was a wonderfully simple piece. even if you’d been living in cave in the south pacific you’d know immediately what, and who, the story was.
after watching all the minute details of this story unfold over time, it was a relief to see it laid out so neatly. TD was great. smart and never slick.
MORE LEAKERS, HANDLEY LEAKED CIA AGENT SPANN’S NAME?
THIS COMES FROM WAYNE MADSEN SO TAKE IT WITH A HUGE BLOCK OF SALT BUT….
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
April 22, 2006 — As Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald meets with the Washington grand jury examining evidence against Karl Rove and others in the leaking of the name of Valerie Plame Wilson and her Brewster Jennings non-official cover (NOC) firm in a vendetta orchestrated by the Bush White House, WMR has been told by a very reliable source with high-level connections to the intelligence community that National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley is now under investigation for the leaking of the names of two CIA “NOCS” to the media. One is Plame Wilson. The other was the leaking of the name of CIA officer Johnny “Mike” Spann, a CIA NOC officer who transferred to the CIA’s paramilitary Special Activities Division after 9-11 and was killed during a November 25, 2001 prison riot by Taliban detainees in Mazar-i-Sharif, Afghanistan. According to the source, Hadley, who was then deputy to then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, leaked Spann’s CIA identity to galvanize American public opinion in support of the Bush administration’s policies. In October 2003, Spann’s father said his son’s name, address, and CIA status were revealed before adequate measures could be taken to protect his son’s wife and children.
Hadley reportedly involved in the leak of two CIA agents’ names
But there were other ramifications. Spann, like Plame Wilson, had established his own network of informants through his covert activities as a NOC. Spann’s network was put in as much jeopardy as Plame Wilson’s counter-proliferation team. Spann had established a circle of informants and brokers in the Pashtun tribal areas on the Afghan-Pakistani border, among General Abdul Rashid Dostum’s Uzbek forces in northwestern Afghanistan, Omani informants in the port city of Gwadar in Baluchistan, and Iranian intelligence personnel in Afghanistan who had operated against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. When Spann’s name and identity were revealed, Al Qaeda and Taliban supporters knew who among their ranks and in Afghanistan and neighboring countries had been dealing with Spann. The White House leak of Spann’s name directly led to the murders of some of these informants and agents of influence.
The Spann disclosure also involved Robert Novak, one of the journalists involved in the leaking by the White House of Plame Wilson’s name. In a December 3, 2001 column, Novak tried to cover for Hadley by blaming the leak of Spann’s name and identity on then-CIA director George Tenet. However, the actual leaker was reportedly Hadley, who may have been acting on the orders of more senior officials. Tenet only acknowledged Spann as a CIA agent after someone leaked the name to the media. That “someone” was reportedly Hadley. The White House leaks about the CIA’s covert roles in Afghanistan began with the publication of a detailed story in The Washington Post on November 18, 2001 by Bob Woodward that put CIA covert agents in Afghanistan at risk. Seven days later, one of those covert agents was killed. It is not yet known if Hadley was a source for Woodward’s story but it is a subject of Fitzgerald’s current investigation. As with the Plame Wilson leak, the revelations about Spann triggered an internal CIA damage assessment. The Spann and Plame Wilson/Brewster Jennings leaks by the White House have expanded the Fitzgerald probe into an investigation of a massive conspiracy by the Bush administration that broke a number of national security laws and did irreparable harm to the national security of the United States.
In another development, the exposure of the Brewster Jennings team is continuing to have devastating effects on various informants involved in the A Q Khan nuclear smuggling network. One Turkish player in the network, Gunes Cire, head of Eti Elektronik, died suddenly in 2004 after his company was implicated by the Turkish Directorate General of Customs Control in the export of nuclear materials to Gulf Technical Industries in Dubai either directly or via Malaysia. From Dubai the materials were shipped to Pakistan and Libya. Another Turk, Selim Alguadish, head of EKA Elektronik and 3E Endustriyel Sanayi, was arrested in Germany for extradition to Turkey. Alguadish was linked to Urs Tinner, who was reportedly working with the CIA to provide faulty nuclear components to the Malaysian front for the A Q Khan network, Scomi Precision Engineering. Another Turk who was the focus of U.S. intelligence was Zeki Bilmen, the owner of Giza Technologies of Secaucus, New Jersey. Bilmen provided nuclear trigger spark gaps via a South African-Israeli named Asher Karni, the owner of South Africa-based Top-Cape, who then sent them to the A Q Khan network in Pakistan. With respect to Bilmen and Karni, when it was discovered that the A Q Khan network that was supplying nuclear components to Iran, North Korea, and, possibly, Saudi Arabia, had a potentially significant Israeli-connected component, the pursuit of that particular avenue by the CIA ground to a screeching halt.
The CIA’s counter-proliferation work has historically suffered from exposures and interference from all the Bush administrations. In 1989, one of Valerie Plame Wilson’s predecessor’s in the CIA’s Counter-Proliferation Division, Richard Barlow, was fired after he uncovered the involvement of the George H. W. Bush administration in facilitating the A Q Khan network and Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program. The Bush administration did not want to alienate Pakistan, a key ally in the mujaheddin war against the Soviet Union. One of the individual’s involved in muzzling and punishing Barlow was then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney’s Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy — Stephen Hadley.
Sopranos was weird as shit tonight.
Re topic: wheels coming off american nazi project. humans reclaiming.
Zennurse – I wanted to change things up based on the Delurk comments about “Fitz”-ing.
If it turns out by the time of the next thread that no one has given a correct answer, I will let you in on it.
congrats ccmask, ya bastid!
Isn’t Kazuza from Neopets?
This is what I wrote over at Atrios’:
When I first heard about the 60 minutes story I said to myself “like…who is this guy and why haven’t we heard any of this information?”
Josh does a good job showing what he said should be authoratative, and why we never heard about it. People who were doing the “investigating” were covering for the Bush administration all the way.
This should be ample reason for the Dems NOT to wait for a congressional investigation into NSA wiretapping. There is NO WAY the current congress can conduct a proper investigation of any kind on this current administration.
CENSURE BUSH NOW!
Isis2 – 60 Minutes is almost always a top ten show. The nation saw it.
Makes one (me at least) wonder whether the CIA (regardless of Goss) has declared war on all things Chimpco. If they have, couldn’t happen to a nicer admin.
OT, but has anyone linked to this as yet? Or is it a hoax?
“Bush Impeachment – The Illinois State Legislature is Preparing to Drop a Bombshell
.
Utilizing a little known rule of the US House to bring Impeachment charges.”
http://www.opednews.com/articl…..nt___t.htm
I think with numbers this low, we can look forward to not another war: another 9/11 attack. Again, it will be done by the Admin against the country, just like 9/11.
Garafalo said it best on Air America Radio: “9/11 was an inside job.”
Check out photographic proof that the columns at the WTC were cut with thermite, not burning jet fuel, etc. The Towers (and building 7) were felled by a controlled explosion. Thermite explains why the site remaining burning hot for days. Jet fuel does not burn that hot.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/c…..read=87932
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
“We talk about this stuff all the time on the blogs but it’s not often things this clearly damning are so widely disseminated. Shock waves feel like they are starting to ripple out and it’s hard to know how far they are going to extend.”
Very true. Also, the average “60 Minutes” viewers age is about 59. Add to that, about 30% of the population doesn’t have Internet access and a large portion of those are senior citizens, AND dedicated voters.
neopets… is that like a new puppy?
EPU, first 20 responses on Google are mostly in russian or similar language. Still lost, but it would make a great last name for zennurse, wouldn’t it?
zennurse zazuza.
Hard to type, though.
There’s more about this from Josh Marshall. He spoke to Drumheller:
For the latest PlameGate and Iraq WMD news, reports, documents, timelines and more, see:
- “The PlameGate Scandal Resource Center”
- “The Iraq WMD Intelligence Center.”
EPU — i’m glad to hear it. i know it used to be at the top of the ratings but thought it slipped in the last few years. it’ll be interesting to hear what the ratings were.
it does seem like war has broken out though it must have been building since plame and brewster jennings were lost. like you said… couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.
chicago tom
Spann died because he was in the wrong place at a very wrong time…Hadley had zip to do w/it.
Professor questions the “official” 9/11 story. Believes the buildings were felled with thermite cutter demolition charges.
QUESTION THE 9/11 STORY. They’ve lied about everything else: global warming, the war, mercury, education, taxes, social security — why would they be truthful about 9/11?
http://www.physics.byu.edu/res…../htm7.html
censure, my ass
the times will bring about much, much more
& with that happy thought – goodnight all
Bush is conforming quite nicely to the “Nixon Trajectory”…impeachment is only a few months away. Sooner if he bombs Iran.
What’s the “Nixon Trajectory”? Well, it’s the path he described as he fell from the pinnacle of power as the “Leader of the Free World” to “I am not a crook”.
I can only imagine where “I am the Decider” will end up.
In jail for crimes against humanity would be a good place for him I think.
Larry: Hadley leaked his name after he died. I’m not saying Hadley killed him. It’s still a crime to leak the name and it caused people to lose their lives and loss of spies, etc.
chicago tom 15:
That is a fascinating story, and a damning one, if true. But like 60 Minutes reportedly did with the uranium story tonight (I didn’t see it), someone needs to vastly simplify it for public consumption.
So much for the “Joe Wilson has been discredited” camp. Can’t wait for Christopher Hitchens’s next rant. Some delusions die hard.
The tourism industry has recorded a 24% increase in the number of visitors arriving in Israel during the month of March 2006, as compared to the same period last year.
At the same time, outgoing tourism has also increased by 8%, with over 204,000 Israelis traveling abroad in March.
==
Also, for anyone who hasn’t heard, 8 American soldiers died in Iraq this weekend.
night 2 all…Thanks for all you do Jane
Actually, there IS a war going on over at CIA. It’s VERY VERY subtle, and has been going on for several years now. Why?
The Company, from IT’S own perspective, took a real HIT from the WH when the WH effectively blamed all its woes on “bad intelligence”. That, and the Plame thing, REALLY pissed off alot of folks over there. They also felt embarrassed, from an international perspective. LOTS of grumbling going on. What to do?
Those “incompetents” (as portrayed by the WH) have been performing a looong hit job. If you go back many, many months….everytime things got kinda “quiet” for the WH….out would come another leak, a report, etc. All of which would whack the WH.
The Company is performing that ole Chinese torture….death by a thousand cuts. Remember: don’t piss off the Company! They got a 101 ways to hit back…and you’ll never see the fist, the knife, or the bullet.
Ghostman
which one? hadley or 9/11? Have you seen all the professors who question the Towers’ collaps?
Jet fuel burns at 900 degrees. Steel melts at 1,500 degrees. Why is there a ton of molten metal at the bottom of the Towers? Why were there “hot spots” that burned hot for days? From jet fuel? Hardly.
Physically, it’s impossible.
“The policy was set,” Drumheller says. “The war in Iraq was coming. And they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.”
The beauty of this is the WH has no time to prepare. This week’s newscycle lasts till Friday.
ClusterfuckBush can decide all week what he wants on the front page, $3/gallon gas or Drumheller.These kinds of things also make it tougher (not impossible) for him to launch against Iran.
We must realize that the American People are looking at the New and Improved Bush.
The old product was that he was honest, tongue-tied, corn-poney yet swaggering, straight talking man that you wanted to have a beer with.
Now he is the new and improved, shifty, dishonest, double talking, politician who has worn out his welcome because he doesn’t drink so you can’t have a beer with him.
His PR department is trying to roll out a new ad campaign to recast the bad turn in product polls, but they have been trying mighty hard for almost a year now. To no avail.
Also, there are lots of other PR folks that work for the competition and not him, who are telling people not to buy him anymore, he is defective and a big old lemon a breach in the code of truth in advertising.
A few more months and it could be time for a refund.
-GSD
ccow – that’s been around for at least a couple of months, although I don’t know if it is real, and I couldn’t tell you where I first saw it, most likely someones blog.
Ghost: I hope so. I’ve been waiting for the vaunted CIA counterrack for 6 years. If they ever find a pair over there, install them, and do something, I’ll be surprised.
Hungrycoyote 27
“Drumheller was also interviewed twice by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (the Roberts Committee) but apparently only after they released their summer 2004 report.”
No wonder Pat Roberts doesn’t want to release the second phase of the report.
chicago tom-
I watched the whole 9/11 thing with a room full of engineers, and as soon as we saw it they all said, “oh, those buildings are coming down.” They seemed to think a jet fuel fire would be plenty good enough.
chicago tom,
Have you ever heard of a forge?
You’re right the steel didn’t melt. That’s why it took the Towers so long to collapse after the fuel started buring. The steel was bent by the heat AND the structural weight it was designed to bear.
You think this is the backblow of BushCo.’s p.o. the CIA, maybe the FBI and almost every person in the world? The truth demands to be set free, Mr. President, Jr. Where is Poppy Bush, by the way? His sins are still lurking in the backround, eh?
I hereby nominate eRiposte for the Nobel Peace Prize. Seriously.
chicago tom,
Block of salt taken. I’m not buying that Mike Spann was a NOC either.
http://www.honormikespann.org/about.htm
“He led one of our teams into Afghanistan, then under the sway of a dictatorship aligned with global murder,†Tenet said. “There, he tracked the authors and allies of terror. There, while fighting for the future of the American people, he fought to bring a better future to the Afghan people. And it was there, one evening, that he said he would gladly risk his life if he could help make the world a safer place for his wife and children.â€
- George Tenet
CIA Director
Ghostman – I was going for the war entering a new, hotter phase. The CIA was obviously pissed about the outing of Plame and also being blamed for the intelligence “errors/failures.”
Zennurse – It is not Russian. It of American vintage.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucru/d…..hcommithim
I just searched FReeperland to gage the reaction to Drumheller, and nary a peep. Should come soon, though. Maybe after Rush tomorrow.
Nonsense. The first tower hit was the last to collapse. Most of the fuel burned outside the building.
Read the papers by the engineering professors. Did you look at the photos?
Hell, the building owner of Building 7 ADMITTED the fire dept told him they were “pulling the building down.” This is on a taped media interview. Listen to the tape and open your eyes.
How does steel melt at 900 degrees? Why is there molten metal at the bottom of the building? Steel melts at 1,500 degrees and jet fueld burns at 900 and it wasn’t a forge.
Cia war pitting “wermacht” versus the “ss”: guess which ones are the true believers?
http://www.harpers.org/sb-cia-wehrmacht.html
JH: Shock waves feel like they are starting to ripple out and it’s hard to know how far they are going to extend.
Statements like that give me goosebumps.
But that image of a wounded coyote in the yard is staying with me. The administration is bleeding and cornered. Who will they attack?
GSD-
Bingo. Now he’s Nixon, minus the electoral legitimacy. Shifty-eyed, sweaty, lying Nixon. Minus Nixon’s actual political skills.
Thanks, EPU. I gets me news slow these days. Appreciate your response.
#44…the “counterattack” has been underway for some time now. But it’s very very subtle. Realize….if it all came at once, and/or loudly….the company’s fingerprints would be all over it.
Ghostman
Drumheller, the man who is pictured, is heavily quoted in chapter five of James Risen’s new book.
Death sponsored by denial no more.
If sixty minutes says it then it must be true. I can hear the ripping sounds of more bumper stickers. Hopefully the easy reader approach will have a ripple affect. Hopefully. Please impeach the cayote, he eats his own young.
Looks like James Baker may parachute in to save Shrub Jr.
Seems like old times, Saved by Nero.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0423.html
-GSD
ccow #22 and epu– it looks to be for real…. http://www.soapblox.net/chicag…..aryId=1577
the story is also on the state rep’s home page with text of the resolution she introduced:
http://karenyarbrough.com/KY_2…..042006.htm
highlights…
[snip]
WHEREAS, President Bush has publicly admitted to ordering the National Security Agency to violate provisions of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a felony, specifically authorizing the Agency to spy on American citizens without warrant; and
WHEREAS, Evidence suggests that President Bush authorized violation of the Torture Convention of the Geneva Conventions, a treaty regarded a supreme law by the United States Constitution; and
WHEREAS, The Bush Administration has held American citizens and citizens of other nations as prisoners of war without charge or trial; and
WHEREAS, Evidence suggests that the Bush Administration has manipulated intelligence for the purpose of initiating a war against the sovereign nation of Iraq, resulting in the deaths of large numbers of Iraqi civilians and causing the United States to incur loss of life, diminished security and billions of dollars in unnecessary expenses; and
WHEREAS, The Bush Administration leaked classified national secrets to further a political agenda, exposing an unknown number of covert U. S. intelligence agents to potential harm and retribution while simultaneously refusing to investigate the matter; and
WHEREAS, the Republican-controlled Congress has decline to fully investigate these charges to date; therefore be it RESOLVED,….
[snip]
has to pass both houses… fingers crossed!
Think Progress has the Drumheller segment and the transcript.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..fall-2002/
must sleep.
thanks for lively discussing tonight.
But they would never destroy a building full of people for political gain! Um….. But they would never lie in order to get Congress to agree to go to war against Iraq! Um….. But they would never exaggerate the danger of avian flu right before the ‘06 elections! Um….. But they would never distort the electoral process so much that it would change the outcome of important elections! Um….. But they would never refrain from helping a drowning city in order to reduce the number of those brown people! Um…..
chicago tom- that BYU guy might not be the best link. But, there’s a huge amount of other stuff out there, as I’m sure you know. A while ago a regular FDL commenter posted on his own views, having experienced things first hand in NYC. I am pretty sure I remember who it was, but don’t want to say, as I am not 100% sure. He was clear in his view of it being an inside job. And, as I’ve mentioned before, the “cell phone” part of it was what finally convinced me. Again, I have to be less than my usual googlily self, cuz it’s late and I am preoccupied- but the guy who wrote the book- from Claremont- was asked in an LATimes article about whether he was a “conspiracy theorist”- said something to the effect the “official explanation” is also a conspiracy theory- and went on to elaborate how it didn’t have any more basis in fact than his own speculations/ conclusions.
Chicago Tom – If Janeane Garofalo agrees with you, run with it; she’s an actress after all, so that gives her pronouncements on issues like the physics and chemistry involved in a plane crash extra weight.
A suggestion though: take it to Huffpo. They really like celebrities, celebrity news and celebrity pontification over there; I think you will get a better reception. Just mention Jeneane Garofalo as many times as you can (but not too much, you don’t want to look like a crazy person/stalker type).
chicago tom,
“How does steel melt at 900 degrees?”
Just food for thought. 1) Who controlled 90%+ of the constuction in Manhattan during that time period? 2) Was the construction built to code? 3) Did you watch the Sopranos tonight? I did ; )
The 60 Minutes piece was very well done, but there was one factual error.
They said (in reference to the Niger forgeries) that “it was reported that Saddam bought yellowcake in Africa.” No — it was “Saddam attempted to buy yellowcake” . . .
Both claims are bogus, but CBS should have gotten it right.
one of my absolute favorite parts of the interview was this :
According to Drumheller, CIA Director George Tenet delivered the news about the Iraqi foreign minister at a high-level meeting at the White House, including the president, the vice president and Secretary of State Rice.
The blame laid squarely at the feet of the 3 most powerful thugs. Who else was there? Enquiring minds want to know…
Thanks for the link to Drumheller’s new book. I will look for it. I hope the Bushites do try to smear him with the line that he is just pimping the new book. Might boost sales. First title phrase is snappy, short, hope its an easy read.
You can’t smear dozens of people at once. And we are getting to that point now. Maybe not on one issue, but put them all together, and it will soon be donzens they have to smear. Heck it already is almost a dozen with the six retired generals.
chicago tom–
I’m confused. Did they rush in with the thermite after the planes hit? Was it always wired with thermite, and when the planes hit, it was set off to make the terror planes look worse? Why not just use the thermite? Why use the planes at all?
Was the 93 WTC bombing an inside job, too?
BTW–there are lots of other metals in the building that would melt at ca. 900 degrees. Copper and silver in the wring would melt about then. Tin would melt at less. The solder in the 50,000 computers in the buildings would melt at less.
And if anyone out there picks up on TPM post commenter linked to above, this also puts heat on the abject and blatant lacky Pat Roberts.
Excuses for Democrats to play patsy for this liear and malfeasant are getting short. Somebody needs to ask ol Pat a few questions next time he is on talkshow. I presume FDL will keep us updated.
“If Janeane Garofalo agrees with you, run with it; she’s an actress after all, so that gives her pronouncements on issues like the physics and chemistry involved in a plane crash extra weight.”
LMAO.
ccow – I wondered about whether or not it was true too. So, I did a search and found it also mentioned in an article at The Nation:
TR at #56 — the ‘wounded coyote’ republicans are going to attack anything with a D attached to it between now and November – in every manner possible. They may be so busy they won’t have time to give Lieberman a little ‘friendly’ help. :-)
Angie No. 71
“The blame laid squarely at the feet of the 3 most powerful thugs. Who else was there? Enquiring minds want to know…”
Rove?
Senate Report of Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq
This is the committee who interviewed Drumheller twice – after they issued the report, according to Josh Marshall.
Pat Roberts has been dragging his feet on the second part of the investigation (about the administration’s role in the pre- war intel.
Now we know why!!
Who was in charge of security of the WTC towers? A brother of President Bush. Sure makes me feel confident that I can trust everything that President Bush does. Whew. Good thing that important matters like this are in the hands of people that care about the nation and not advancing the interests of their own family *cough* Carlyle-and now Tony Blair *cough*. Hey, Jeb Bush ‘08? and maybe no elections in ‘08 because of (1) the completely phony avian flu crisis out of which Rumsfeld makes $5,000,000, (2) false flag/black ops attacks on Iran and they finally respond so we must GO TO WAR and ya know cancel the ‘08 elections so PERMANENT BUSH PRESIDENCY. Think about it. Bush ‘12 then. We love their leadership. Embrace the inevitable. We are F**KED so relax and enjoy it. [?]
new bumpersticker:
Don’t blame me, I’m not the decider
……
thanks for all you do…Jane, Christy, Taylor, Pach, Pam, et al ….
and the many wonderful blog-folk who make this lovely community…
RE: Drumheller
There is the part about implicating the investigations as being part of the same scam the foisted the war.
And it almost seems there is something else. He was the head of the DO for Europe. That will sink in with many people and cause ripples. But is going on the record and has just shot across the bow of the administration. He knows exactly what he is doing. There was a “I dare you to come after me” aspect to this.
chicago tom: maybe you haven’t gotten the word but FDL is part of the reality-based community.
i don’t know about the other folks here tonight but i think you need to become a Fitz disciple and be more careful and disciplined about the accusations you make. We can do just fine sticking to the easily provable, salient matters in the public discourse. the Twin Towers fell because of the paper burning.
the Bush Administration has clearly demonstrated one thing: it’s INCOMPETENCY. it is completely laughable that it would have been capapable of pulling off the sabotage that you envision in your fevered brain.
take your meds and go to your room.
9/11 Security Courtesy of Marvin Bush
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911security.html
neurophius #78– my guess is yesss. Was rummy there, colin?
Pat Roberts may needs some extra strength memory pills…soon.
wespac at #74 said Excuses for Democrats to play patsy for this liear and malfeasant are getting short. Somebody needs to ask ol Pat a few questions next time he is on talkshow….
I would like to see an in depth interview by Christy with Lee Hamilton. Wasn’t he on one of these committees who agreed to some of the ‘conditions’ for that panel?
maggie s., great catch imo.
#63 saw that story and tomorrow I am calling my reps and hope they support Rep. Yarbrough. Two are Ds.
From the report linked above – this was an additional view by Rockefeller, Levin and Durbin:
Senators Rockefeller, Levin, and Durbin
Senators John D. Rockefeller (D-WV) (the Committee’s vice-chairman), Carl Levin (D-MI), and Richard Durbin (D-IL), used their additional view to say that the report painted an incomplete picture, because the Committee had put off until phase two of the investigation the key question of “how intelligence on Iraq was used or misused by Administration officials in public statements and reports.” Because of this, they said, “the Committee’s phase one report fails to fully explain the environment of intense pressure in which Intelligence Community officials were asked to render judgments on matters relating to Iraq when policy officials had already forcefully stated their own conclusions in public.”
We should call Rockefeller, Levin and Durbin’s offices tomorrow and express our support for a complete investigation and report of “phase two” -ASAP!
Angie 85
Maybe the whole evil rotten crew was there. Hadley, Libby, Addington…
Does anyone know when his book is coming out, or if it is out, has anyone looked at it?
The stuff Chicago Tom is talking about is all covered in a documentary. Just go to Google and search for “Loose Change.” There is a blog at the site for conversation about it.
Impeachment could save a lot of Republican votes this fall.
I do not believe that WTC was brought down by inside job. I also think that if it was, confronting such a horrific conspiracy head on in a way that will close minds and turn potential allies away is not the best way to find the truth. There are hard facts that lead up more promising avenues to break the logjam power of BushCo (with emphasis on “Co” since Bush and many in family are tools). If any truth to some of the really ghastly conspiracy theories, it won’t come out until power of BushCo is broken. So, folks who believe have the right to say so. I am not interested until there is better chance to get better evidence.
“Is The Country Catching On?”
No, we are being amnipulated. Will the Patriot Act and all the other incusions into our rights and liberties be rolled by to pre-bush era rights? No, they won’t.
You are being entertained by GW’s public humiliation but please don’t look too closely. You will never get your rights back that were lost to Bush
“Who was in charge of security of the WTC towers?”
“The official, John O’Neill, 49, former special agent in charge of national security in the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s New York office”
edited (former)
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08…..mp;ei=5070
fahrender,
“i don’t know about the other folks here tonight but i think you need to become a Fitz disciple and be more careful and disciplined about the accusations you make. We can do just fine sticking to the easily provable, salient matters in the public discourse. the Twin Towers fell because of the paper burning.
the Bush Administration has clearly demonstrated one thing: it’s INCOMPETENCY. it is completely laughable that it would have been capapable of pulling off the sabotage”
Bingo
One more comment — re the ‘unreal’ idea that 9/11 was an inside job. I am not a scientist, an engineer, and know nothing about the technical aspects.
But I know this — Bush is a liar. I cannot trust anything, any report, any comment coming out of this administration. And the “it can’t happen here’ is what was said not that long ago about rigging/stealing votes via the voting machines. Certainly after 2004 election, there were huge fights at DKos because the frontpagers wouuldn’t even write about accusations, many now proved, of vote rigging, stealing, etc.
Nothing is totally beyond believing for this bunch. I just keep my mind open. Reality on the towers subject is still be written. IMO
egregious – wedding?
Ghostman – I hope you are correct, bc CIA has, in addition to the cavers who gave Tenet/Bush whatever they wanted, some of the smartest and the toughest and they have not only been made to look like idiots and incompetents — Rummy is ready to read them right out of the story.
To balance Karma for them, the ice underwear story would need to be true too, and it would need to be a condition that mysteriously occured when he made it clear he thought he had the balls to take CIA out with a smile on his face. ;-)
Prior thread – GOre can be more of a kingmaker if he doesn’t run. I’m all in Feingold’s camp, but I can see any combo coming from Gore, Feingold, Clark and/or Edwards might be a winner. I think Gore going with his gut and not advisors like Carville is why he sounds so much better; so much stronger.
Civil unions. I’m all in favor of them. I like them so much, I think EVERYONE should have them. ;-)
IMO, that is all GOVERNMENT should be concerned about – unions that give rise to legal consequences, and all those should be treated, legally, the same. Male, female, combos and colors. “Marriage” is a religous matter and IMO, should be left to the various churches. So I think whether or not you get “married” is a matter of religion, whether you have a relationship that gives rise to legal consequences is a governmental matter and that should be, for everyone, a “civil union.”
chicago tom, hungrywolf,wesgpg 93:
The 9/11 conspiracy theory is intriguing, but until a special prosecutor is assigned to look into it, I am not going to hold my breath. And if this administration really were behind it in any way, I believe they would declare martial law rather than allow it to be investigated. In any event, I guess I’m just not ready to believe that they are THAT evil.
chicago tom –
Steel doesn’t have to melt in order for it to fail. The fire from the jet fuel burned out in five or ten minutes, but the force of the impact blasted the content of the towers to one side, and ignited it. It was this fire that led to the structural failure.
Both PBS and one of the cable channels did programs on the failure of the towers. The weak point in the structural design was the connecting point between the floor joists and the vertical columns. One end had 5/8″ bolts, the other had 3/4″. The heat of the fire caused the floor joists to sag, which caused the undersized bolts to fail. The vertical columns depended on the floor joists for lateral stability — and when they went, the columns blew out.
The tower that was hit last failed first for two reasons — mainly, the plane hit lower in the tower, so there was more weight above the damaged section; the damage was also more off center — when it fell, the upper tower started to tip just before it collapsed.
On Nova, the engineer that designed them said that he knew they were coming down from the moment they were hit — they were not engineered to take that.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
On the cable channel (Discovery? History?) they reported that the fireproofing on the structural steel was substandard. It had been replaced up to the 50th floor or so, but the upper floors were essentially unprotected.
Here’s the deal — without fireproofing, ANY piece of structural steel will fail, when exposed to fire. Wood is more structurally fire resistant than steel.
Now — did something weird happen with WTC 7? Maybe; maybe not.
Did the Bush administration ignore the warnings of a pending attack? Absolutely.
Did BushCo cover up the truth after the fact? Absolutely.
But asserting that ‘bombs were planted because the steel didn’t melt’ is seriously unproductive tinfoil territory. The Utah professor is not very helpful either.
OT – Something I found a bit ironic is that Bush recently declared “I’m the decider.” But is that really true?
James Risen, State of War, chapter six – “Losing Afghanistan,” page 161:
What was that Mr. Bush?
Mary,
“IMO, that is all GOVERNMENT should be concerned about – unions that give rise to legal consequences, and all those should be treated, legally, the same. Male, female, combos and colors. “Marriage†is a religous matter and IMO, should be left to the various churches. So I think whether or not you get “married†is a matter of religion, whether you have a relationship that gives rise to legal consequences is a governmental matter and that should be, for everyone, a “civil union.â€
Agree, and I think most people would also.
I don’t think 9/11 was an inside job. I also don’t think the moon landings were faked. Also, I don’t care who marries whom.
neurophius — I was just saying there is a place to talk about that theory. I’m more interested in discussing tonight’s 60 Minutes report and related matters.
chicago tom @ 9:07 pm (#54) – You’re the one talking nonsense. None of the studies you’re referring to are by civil or structural engineers. Most talk about the “molten steel” strawman as though it means something, which, quite frankly, tells me these guys don’t know the first thing about building contruction, let alone building demolition. John Casper is right about how the structural steel failed. It didn’t melt. No serious report on the WTC collapse say that it did. Steel softens long before it melts. If that wasn’t true, steel wouldn’t be anywhere near as useful as it was in the Iron Age.
Read the real reports. They’re out there. Do a search for my Internet handle in this domain and at haloscan.com with keywords like “forge”, “deform”, and “steel” and “WTC”. I’ve listed them several times, and at least once in each domain.
This stuff is patent nonsense that is perpetuated by people who take their mental abilities far too seriously to actually check the facts. They are in the same mental class as people who believe in alien abductions, the Bermuda Triangle, and crystal science.
This week’s newscycle lasts till Friday. Clusterfuck Bush can decide all week what he wants on the front page, $3/gallon gas or Drumheller.
Well, Bush is the Big Decider.
hungrycoyote 103: agreed.
re 94 and “amnipulated”
first off – my typing is abysmal, so typos are my friends (and progeny)…
but “amnipulated” is just so perfect for Goeringous George….
(his manipulation, the media’s amnesia……)
night all…
be well
kirk
ps – again, no criticism intended re the typo…..
Look, I know I’m still pretty new around here….but is 9-11 conspiracy stuff a big item here? I’m just asking.
Mary, #97: as to the CIA, actually the SOLE reason Goss was brought in as new director was to put a STOP to the “hit job” going on against the WH. The WH is well aware that it’s taking shots from the agency. Goss is the WH boy. He’s there to root out the “villains” and put a stop to the slow torture. He’s had a few successes….but he’s up against alot of pissed off people….who are VERY devious.
Ghostman
my 2 cents:
All I know about 9/11 is that I don’t know what happened, might never know, but I do know this – we’ve been lied to by the government. I felt that as soon as the hijackers were so easily (mis)identified over the following 24 hours.
Re Tyler Drumheller – didn’t we already break on through to the other side in this country several times with enough evidence to convince 65% of the country that we’re in the wrong hands? Yes.
Good for ex-director Drumheller, hope he sells lots of copies of his book. I might buy it or check it out from the library. I do think, Jane, that the swiftboating will go a lot further than accusing him of hawking his book.
I don’t think that, as more and more Drumhellers, Zinis, etc. come forward (and they will – at least until some of them are jailed or fall out of windows), Bush’s popularity will go down more than about four or five more points. But the depth of feeling against the course he has led this country down will solidify significantly.
Chicago Tom, enough of the conspiracy already. As a civil engineer, I can give you plenty of reasons for “remaining hot spots”…it’s called “insulation”. Something at severe heat, buried under thousands of tons of material will, in fact, remain hot for a while. Duh.
How is there molten metal…have you ever cut a “hot” electrical wire with a pair of wire cutters? See the nice mini-welding job it did on your wire cutters? Multiple that by all the electricy in a high rise building.
There are some inconsistencies, but steel does not need to “melt” to fail. Creep begins well before “melting”, and with a structural frame already compormised from flying a fucking jet plane through it, collapse is not exactly surprising.
Now back to the basement before those black choppers come get ya!!
From timewarp:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ment-65833
comment My previous impression was that NYers would be the last of those to come to grips with the truth of this, because it would just be too difficult to accept psychologically. Somehow I thought that those looking on from a distance might be more rationally dispassionate, than those directly involved.
As a matter of fact, the truth is the exact opposite.
I am a New Yorker. I saw the Towers burn in crash with my own 2 eyes. I do not know a single person in this who really bought the Bush line – not from day one. And in fact, the closer one was to ground zero, the more exponentially sceptical one is likely to be of Federal smoke and mirrors (The EPA, FEMA, etc etc). Talk to the people who labored in the rubble and the smoke for months, they know first hand that there were some very very strange and unexplained “things.†No, there weren’t many conspiracy theories floating around “then†(that would come later, after Osama bin Laden was NOT captured in Tora Bora) but there was a sense that there was more to the whole situation than met the eye. The Aug 19th intelligence briefing was not a surprise.
more at FDL comment—
I think it’s time for The Decider to decide to throw Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and maybe a few others under the bus in a last-ditch attempt to blame it all on them and (wishful thinking on his part) save his ass.
Jane, just wanted to say that I finally got to see Good Night and Good Luck. It’s rather sad how much the time of Ed Murrow and Joe McCarthy parallel our own. Glad to see CBS is finally trying to assume the role it did back then. If the movie’s any guide, it will be an imperfect attempt, full of second-guessing and retrenching. Hopefully, in the end the resulting movement will be toward doing the right thing.
Ghostman,
“Look, I know I’m still pretty new around here….but is 9-11 conspiracy stuff a big item here? I’m just asking.”
Short answer? No, It’s not
When I talk about “same-sex marriage” I mean it in the legal recognition by the state.
I am not too familiar with the state’s ability to regulate churches, if there is such a thing. Could someone help me out on that?
Ghostman-
9/11 conspiracies are not usually a staple here. Nor is there usually much discussion of the Bermuda Triangle, or other such matters.
BTW-Do you think the moon landings were real? I do.
Now Cheney–he seems fake. I think he’s a robot of some kind.
Then it’s time for the helicopter on the White House lawn, and the “V for Victory” sign.
Ghostman @ 9:55 pm – It seems to be a continuing delusion. It’s astonishing how many websites are devoted to various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Every once in a while someone comes here and posts about this nonsense. Needless to say, it’s never on topic. As far as I know, neither Jane, Christy (ReddHedd), nor any of the guest posters have ever written about this.
Ghostman #108 – This is the first time I’ve seen this much talk about it here. I watched the video a few weeks ago. It does ask some intriguing questions and make some interesting points, but I think it’s going to go down the road of the Kennedy Assassination. People will still be arguing about it 40 years from now.
I come here to learn about current politics and all the investigations into leaks, etc. These topics are enough for me to try and digest and comprehend.
FDL is a great place to keep up with the current politics and legal proceedings. IMHO, the 9/11 conspiracy discussion belongs somwhere else.
Cujo -
The film was great. In my opinion, we desperately need a Murrow. I am itchin’ to get it on DVD.
neurophius #98: you misunderstood my comment -I agree with you.
And what ck #99 says is also my understanding. I saw at least one of the shows he discusses. I also saw a PBS show predating 9/11 that explained in detail how WTC towers were built. The exterior walls were an integral part of the building’s support. Damage them, and you damage the structural integrity of the building.
And another thing: BushCo started an aggressive war of choice and we know they were careless about it, very probably at least unconsciously dishonest to themselves and others about it. More and more evidence is accumulating that they were consciously dishonest. Much more of this and we are definitely into public seriously believing that we were lied into a war we should not have started eithe on grounds of morality or self interest. And I think the public woudl be correct.
When you get to that last part, and we are getting there, we are talking war crimes. How many people have died in the war? Over 2,500 US soldiers and between 40,000 and 100,000 Iraqis. How many more tens of thousands maimed? That is horrific enough for me. And our level of understanding and the quality of evidence is much higher here than for the WTC conspiracy inside job theories.
So, I stick with the very strong trail that is very probably leading to a crime that costs tens of thousands of lives. I say one battle at time. Something to the WTC conspiracy? I don’t think so, but if there is, it will come out sooner or later.
Matt O.–
No, the government cannot regulate churches (now, I’m not saying this administration wouldn’t try…) Churches can “marry” anyone their own doctrine allows, including gay people. But those marriages would not have legal standing without the civil (government)component of marriage also taking effect. You go to the church, the preacher or whatever marries you, then he signs the marriage license and you turn it back into the government office that issued it, and you are married in the eyes of the state. I agree with Mary that they should just call the civil part what it is–a civil union–and let “marriage” be the province of any religious or other organization that chooses to recognize it. I hope I have stated that correctly, Mary–at least, that’s how I see it.
Hey, this conspiracy talk about the towers is silly.
What we should really be talking about is the anthrax conspiracy ;-).
Actually, and I hate the fact that it makes me a tinfoil hat type, I think that one might have legs………..
Ok, got it on 9-11 “frequency” here. Just on a side note…..whenever some big event happens, I think alot of conspiracy stuff pops up, in part, due to the gov’t refusal just to release ANY AND ALL evidence of whatever kind. Governments like to withhold, and so conspiracies are born.
In 9-11, we have, among other things, the gov’t refusal to let us “hear” the flight 93 tapes. There’s also apparently some videos of the plane which flew into the pentagon…which the gov’t won’t release. I don’t think it’s to cover up anything…but when you hide something, people begin to wonder. Sometimes, as to conspiracy theories, the gov’t is its own worst enemy.
Ghostman
wesgpc–
No misunderstanding, I was just trying to reference everyone who had addressed the issue recently. You seem pretty reality-based to me. I should have been more clear.
This needs to be shown again, and again.
Sometimes I wish we still had Life Magazine. Or the tv show of the early 60s, “This Was The Week That Was,” with David Frost (I think).
grandma (and others),
keeping your mind open is not the same thing as coming up with something ridiculous to create conspiracy rumors. we want the truth, however long it may take to discover it. meanwhile there’s a lot of productive work we can focus on that will serve our purpose best. as Fitz has shown us, just keep digging and asking questions. it’s not dramatic, and it may not seem like we’re getting anywhere but we are.
Great post Jane. OT …but I howeled when I read this comment over at HuffPo. Someone wrote;
“If you stick a pin in Tony Blankley and Bill Bennett at the same time, who do you think would release more gas?”
There very probably was some kind of conspiracy to start an aggressive war of choice that has killed and maimed tens and tens of thousands of people, AND made the US much less safe for decades to come. That is conspiracy enough for me. It may not have the horrorshow thrill of WTC blow-up stories. But human consequences worse. More US soldiers will have died from hosilities in Iraq war by end of 2006 than in WTC bombing. Toll of WTC already dwarfed by Iraqi civilian casualties.
You can check the numbers yourself here (CNN has good summary numbers)
http://www.purposeless.com/
VG – I am a native New Yorker, and was living in Manhattan at the time. I too was there. Obviously your experience is your own, but I don’t know anyone (including a relative whose husband was killed and another relative who survived) who was in NYC at the time who has ever expressed any notion that it was anything other than what it was, a foreign terrorist attack.
More importantly, Chicago Tom is a thread hijacking troll. Really the most insidious type of troll, because they disguise their trollism well and appear sympathetic to the cause. But just as more obvious trollism, they can’t be tolerated.
ghostman,
current discussion is probably a reflection of the fact that Bush is obviously so devious about EVERYTHING, why not that too? It set the whole neo-con ball rolling, just as the PNAC denizens had hoped would happen. If the government was in on 9/11 on some level or another, W would have been the last person the conspirators would have told.
I used to spend time at the 9/11 sites, and for awhile was convinced that nobody could have flown a 757 into the Pentagon like we’ve been told happened, but I’m not sure about that anymore. I remain skeptical about ALL explanations, though.
The possibility of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice at all being reptilians who have taken over human shells, though, has a lot of merit.
Matt O.- back to your comment at #100.
That is a really interesting quote from the Risen book. Seems to me that Bush fancies himself as “The Decider”, but that is just part of his egolomania (word? spelling?). Fancies himself as CEO of the US. Seems like he handed off all responsibility for decision making to others, while holding on to the title “Decider in Chief”. Is that your take?
smashboy,
“What we should really be talking about is the anthrax conspiracy ;-).
Actually, and I hate the fact that it makes me a tinfoil hat type, I think that one might have legs………..”
Now yer talking ; ) Fort Detrix, Maryland
EPU: Sorry if I fed it. Let’s change the subject now–back to CBS, Jane’s post, and the chimpocracy’s evil manipulation with regard to starting the war against Iraq.
There is no way the White House stumble bums, 9 months in office, wired the three NY buildings with explosives and flew airplanes into two of them. No doubt the White House had warnings of planning terrorist attack but ignored them out hubris and incompetence. The Pentagon screwed up big time and didn’t intercept one highjacked plane. The great leader flew around the country like Chicken Little. So in typical GOP fashion the government white washed the investigation into 9-11, allowing conspiracy theories to flourish.
But, I do think 9-11 flows into the Firedoglake’s tale of illegality, dereliction of duty, mendacity and incompetence of the Bush Administration.
neurophius – I need to hire you to summarize me – that was perfect.
I can’t really pay, but I could give you a pony. *g* Or a crooked legged horse. Or one with a neuro disorder? Or a goat with a broken leg. Your choice.
Ghostman – I’d much rather believe in the CIA plotting to help take down people who put this country at risk.
Generic – If Wilkerson ran, I might have to consider him as a backup to Feingold. Feingold had me at “We the people” on the floor; but when Wilkerson throws in the Magna Carter and the common law and “when America ceases to be good, it will cease to be great” I just can’t help looking.
remember everybody:
stay focused. that’s the ticket. this is not a conspiracy theory website. don’t let off-the-point nonsense destroy our momentum! onward with
FITZ, FEINGOLD & FDL!!!!!!
Evil Parallel Universe,
“More importantly, Chicago Tom is a thread hijacking troll.”
I think you’re right.
Ghostman @ 10:10 pm (#124) – Government secrecy doesn’t help, but I think that there’s just something in human nature that wants to see such stories. When something as senseless as 9/11 happens, people will tend to think that there must be more to it. It’s crazy that a group of people who don’t even know us would want to come here and kill thousands of innocent people for no good reason. So, like people inventing gods to explain random shit like floods and famine, they’d rather believe that something more sinister or meaningful is at work. Heck, I think there should have been more to it, but there wasn’t. It was just some morons who thought this was the way to make a point, and 2500 people were in the wrong buildings and airplanes that day.
Sometimes, life and death really are that random. It’s just really hard to believe when that randomness affects you.
Coz – Of course I am :)
There may have been a pre-9/11 BushCo conspiracy — but if there was, my guess is it was more of a ‘let it happen’ rather than ’cause it to happen.’
Even so, keeping the truth away from the American People is mission number one for this krew of gangsters — they are far more dangerous than a wounded coyote.
noen #94,
I agree with you 100 percent. If nothing is done to smack down the Unitary Executive precedent set by this administration, we will not get our rights back.
I am in the process of building an email database for people living in the middle states of our country. By phrasing the issues of NSA spying, wiretapping, netcrawling, suspension of habeas corpus into something that your average joe in WY, CO, KS, etc. can understand, such as Do you think any president will willingly surrender these powers?
It gets them to thinking. I like to through a little gun scare into them like, when a Democrat becomes president, he could use these tools to find out who has guns to make you register…
Unless you call your congressional representatives to outlaw these behaviors, they will be there to abuse forever.
I think I’m actually having limited success with this.
Ed*ard Teller,(#131) Yep, I too sometimes wonder if they’re all pod people.
Whenever the neocons start crying 9/11, 9/11, 9/11 as they used to do to good effect, I remember Steve Gilliard’s “scrant,” in reply: Katrina, Katrina, Katrina.
VG #132
It sure sounds like it. In fact, this chapter on Afghanistan pretty much argues that. The paragraphs following the one I quoted:
Rumsfeld succeeded by using a passive-aggressive style in which he would raise an unending series of questions and concerns about a proposal without flatly stating his opposition to it. If a decision went against him in one meeting, he and his aides would simply arrange another meeting with a different group of administration officials and would repeat the process until the Pentagon view prevailed. … That separated Rumsfeld from Powell, who made the mistake of playing by the rules.
In terms of the “War on Terra”TM, Bush is led by the nose it sounds to me, according to these anonymous sources Risen uses. The disengaged manner in which Bush operates is best summed up later in the chapter.
Forget King George, he thinks he’s Merlin! A wave of the wand, and *poof* it gets done. Anybody who knows anything about international relations/foreign policy knows that giving an order and seeing it through are two completely different things.
A good manager sees to it that the order was carried out.
EPU, down, firedoggie. ChiTom didn’t bring 9/11 up, somebody else did – I think? Oops, he did, didn’t he. Sorry, EPU
Back to topic, by 9:00 a.m. est Monday, every nationally syndicated radio RWN talkshow is going to be stomping on Drumheller, and it won’t be that he’s hawking his book. Rove’s minions are going through Risin’s book’s Drumheller sections looking for material, and Porter Gauss is up all night tonight looking across his desk at agents who worked with Drumheller, as Gauss thumbs through their personnel files. Gauss’s and Rove’s people will be working with Ken Mehlman on the party line talking points by 0530 tomorrow, and the Rushs, Hannitys, etc. will be spouting them dutifully by 0600.
Addendum to #144
I loved this part, Rumsfeld “would raise an unending series of questions.”
Can you imagine Rummy asking rhetorical questions in cabinet meetings like he does in front of the press?
I swear, I am starting to think Rumsfeld is becoming a bit senile. Reminds me of that stereotypical relative that talks to his/herself, only in the Bush administration, people take orders from this guy.
9/11 conspiracies are not usually a staple here. Nor is there usually much discussion of the Bermuda Triangle, or other such matters.
BTW-Do you think the moon landings were real? I do.
As do I. 9/11 talk probably does belong elsewhere but the reason that it shows up is a measure of how important it is to many people. It also reflects how distrustfull people are these days. With the advent of the internet and virtually unlimited access to both good and bad information people have been able to understand one thing: the traditional media “lies” to us. It filters and manages information and decides what is fit for us “consumers” and what is not.
With the internet we have more options. We can assemble our own media portal, aggregate the RSS feeds we choose, listen, read and participate with the commentators we want to. Remember when the only “blogs” were the commentary section of the editorial page? It’s a different world today which means that the old recieved world-view is history.
Now Cheney–he seems fake. I think he’s a robot of some kind.
Cheney is a full blown sociopath. I truely believe that.
Wyo Nate @ 142-
They’ll really shit if you phrase it “Do you think President Hilary Clinton will willingly surrender these powers?”
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bi…..i/37/10078
(reprint of article from LA Times)
===Curveball the Source of Fresh CIA Rancor
[]Washington – A bitter feud erupted Friday over claims by a presidential commission that top CIA officials apparently ignored warnings in late 2002 and early 2003 that an informant code-named “Curveball” – the chief source of prewar US intelligence about Iraqi germ weapons – was unreliable.
Former CIA Director George J. Tenet and his chief deputy, John E. McLaughlin, furiously denied that they had been told not to trust Curveball, an Iraqi refugee in Germany who ultimately was proved a fraud. =
Tyler Drumheller, former chief of the CIA European Division, said he and other senior officials in his office – the unit that oversees spying in Europe – had issued repeated warnings about Curveball’s accounts.
“Everyone in the chain of command knew exactly what was happening,” said Drumheller, who retired in November after 25 years at the CIA. He said he never met personally with Tenet, but “did talk to McLaughlin and everybody else.”
Drumheller scoffed at claims by Tenet and McLauglin that they were unaware of concerns about Curveball’s credibility. He said he was disappointed that the two former CIA leaders would resort to a “bureaucratic defense” that they never got a formal memo expressing doubts about the defector.
“They can say whatever they want,” Drumheller said. “They know what the truth is … I did not lie.” Drumheller said the CIA had “lots of documentation” to show suspicions about Curveball were disseminated widely within the CIA. He said they included warnings to McLaughlin’s office and to the Weapons Intelligence Non Proliferation and Arms Control Center, known as WINPAC, the group responsible for many of the flawed prewar assessments on Iraq.
“Believe me, there are literally inches and inches of documentation” including “dozens and dozens of e-mails and memos and things like that detailing meetings” where officials sharply questioned Curveball’s credibility, Drumheller said. ===
Evil Parallel Universe,
“Coz – Of course I am :)”
But, your self estaem? : ( lol
Yer, funny. I can relate BTW ; )
The other main goal I have is to establish an independent, alternative choice for candidates at all levels in the state of wyoming.
While the two party system is a juggernaut in many other states in the union, I happen to live in the state with the lowest population. If I could discover independent candidates that could take away 10 to 20 percent of the republican votes in this state, the democratic party might actually win. Hell, the independent candidate might actually win!
Yeah, I agree that if you want a traitorous conspiracy theory that leads to horrors, the unitary executive is the way to go. And loss of freedom is a real threat if that is left unchallenged. I’ve been collecting quotes from famous old Republicans that I think modern centrist Democrats would be afraid to repeat in public. Here is a relevant one from Lincoln:
Abraham Lincoln
–If there is any thing which it is the duty of the whole people to never entrust to any hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity, of their own liberties, and institutions.
(from Columbia Encyclopedia of Quotations)
-I can resist throwing in these on history and Mr Bush either:
“History? We don’t know. We’ll all be dead,” Bush remarked in 2003.
“We cannot escape history,” said Abraham Lincoln.
The living president has already sealed his reputation in history.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..33,00.html
**** Dem has the last word, though! *****
“There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.†Harry Truman
chicago tom is not a troll imo, IIRC, he was the first to link to a story about Xerox Ben resigning.
Hey Cujo, thanks, that was your forge stuff I commented. ck, Alaskan_Pete thanks too for great comments.
ET 145
So they’ll be backing off the Mary McCarthy story? Or risk diluting their message? How many people can they swift boat at a time before they reach capacity? Or before their audience tunes out?
>Now Cheney–he seems fake. I think he’s a robot of some kind.
Cheney is a full blown sociopath. I truely believe that.
I think he’s a failed experiment in recombinant DNA therapy for curing a cardio-pulmonary disease. But, not knowing anything about genetics or microbiology, it’s possible I could be wrong …
Cujo, on a prior thread today, yesterday?, Mary was just asking where you had been. Always good to have you on a thread.
If Cheney were a robot, he’d be in a lot better condition.
al-Scooter @ 10:36 pm (#154) – They seem to have lots of little sycophants out there in the “news” business, and the right wing blogs. I suspect they can slime at least a dozen people simultaneously without breaking a sweat. Of course, the point about diluting the message is well taken. Their target audience has a short attention span.
cleter 73, re chicago tom 40:
at what temperature do tin foil hats melt?
punaise, and then at what temperature does your head explode?
If Cheney were a robot, he’d be in a lot better condition.
LOL…. and he wouldn’t need to take naps either.
Now….. he could be a shape-shifting retillian. Ya never know.
;)
at what temperature do tin foil hats melt?
98.6 degrees Fahrenheit? : )
John Casper @ 10:38 pm (#156) (and Mary) I’ve been visiting the ancestral homeland (Pennsylvania), and haven’t been near an Internet connection all that much. I’ve been on about enough to read most of the stories, but haven’t had much time to comment.
Cujo 159
I’m hoping that we’ve reached the point in the power function where there are so many deviations from the party line that the math really begins to work against them.
Now would be a great time for the generals to counterattack with some more interviews and editorials.
al-Scooter #154:
“How many people can they swift boat at a time before they reach capacity? Or before their audience tunes out?”
They’ll re-arrange the deckchairs on the Swift boat?
oh crap… I meant “reptillian” not “retillian”. That’s two typos in one night. I must be getting tired.
On The Smear Tactic:
It is getting to be too many for that. Remember there are six generals just signed on. These people are not pushovers, and you can’t smear them all at once. Everyone is human and you can find some fault in anyone to make the basis of a smear campaign. And that can be very effective on just one person.
But I have faith that we have stopped far short of Stalin’s USSR where smears could be effective on thousands at once.
I think this machine will break down at a dozen. The new ones on board know what is coming, so they are prepared. I heard an interview with Gen. Batiste this morning. I noticed he has his developed his own responses to the smears against him, and he inserted those talking points throughout the interview to answer the smears head on and counter-attack. You got a dozen smart honest people doing that in a country that still has free speech and press, and BushCo is soon roasted, if there is any trubh to the charges. And I bet there is a whole 100% lot of truth to damn near all of them.
I think the Batiste interview was with Schieffer, who I heard referred to as Old Melon Head here, I think. Well, now that His Dignified Blandness, The Schief, doubted the, um, wisdom, of secret prisons on teevee in that very bland ghee whizz kind of way of his, I notice the wingjnuts have declared him a convictable traitor who should be send to Gitmo asap (man, I kid you not.) He is a very gracious courtly and bland old traitor, but a traitor nevertheless.
I wonder how Tyler Drumheller got CIA clearance to go on 60 Minutes tonight and to write his book. Part of this Goss leak-prevention effort includes much tighter reins on appearances and books by retirees, as well. I wonder what Drumheller might have said if he was really free to talk — and what he’s told the SSCI that we’ll never hear thanks to Senator Memory Pills (R-KS).
Did anybody else notice him look to the left before responding to a couple of Ed Bradley’s questions? Do you suppose Tyler had a “minder” there for the interview?
You’d think he’d change his shape immediately then, wouldn’t you? Even a newt would be an improvement.
ET 165
They’ll be needing those deck chairs to build a raft. Milo Minderbinder sold their life rafts to Halliburton.
Matt O. #144 Thanks for your quotes from the Risen book. Interesting point about “Bush being overruled” in the Risen text. That kinda implies that Bush had better ideas, but was overruled by Rummy. Weak manager, okay. But that part that you’ve quoted does make me wonder if Risen is making excuses for Bush. Did it seem this way from your fuller read?
(Obviously, it’s time for me to read the Risen book.)
OT, but has anyone linked to this as yet? Or is it a hoax?
“Bush Impeachment – The Illinois State Legislature is Preparing to Drop a Bombshell
.
Utilizing a little known rule of the US House to bring Impeachment charges.â€
—ccow at 22
As hungrycoyote showed in 76, indeed it is not a hoax. If you want to follow its progress, it looks like this page will be updated regularly.
Immanentize – if you are still around or if you catch this up – I just saw the “fill in” comment and you do it very well. I say we get Olberman to add a bleak, bleaker, bleakest – to his countdown. ;) Hopefully, though, you’ll read a story or get a hug from your son and decide you’d rather leave all three slot to me. *g*
I’m not so grim in real life. Well, sometimes, but in real life I take on more an Eeyore than a Doomsday personification.
BTW – for anyone who read it, the Magna Carter is what you get from an “if they mated” involving Jimmy Carter and some VERY old Anglo with bad teeth.
To me, the Democrats lack the balls to win with a huge sweep. To me it seems easy.
Southeast, project competency with regard to FEMA and all things hurricane. Get your Hawks out with their stars and bars displayed, tell ‘em how you will win the war in Iraq.
Northeast, dock security, and education + national platform.
Midwest-incentives for production of alternative forms of fuel (hello grain belt), federal government reinvesting in the infrastructure of the American steel Industry for Nat’l Security purposes.
West and Southwest- a reasonable approach to the immigration issue + nat’l platform.
Nat’l platform- re regulation of the energy industry, insurance industry, and airline industry, tough business stance with China. (David atacking the corporate Goliaths) now that would take balls!
Then when Dems take over raise taxes and draft kids into the service, send over 250,000 troops and declare martial law in Iraq. Revamp the Marshall Plan. But make sure you eliminate the easy out for the GOP youth in regard to deferrment, make them put pacifist on their cards to avoid service!
Sorry about the OT rant, two term papers today. I’m going to have a beer. Later!
yes, Jane, they are catching on, thanks to you, and other fabulous bloggers. Will it be in time to avoid complete disaster? Who knows. You are fabulous, in any case, like Armando, Billmon, atrios, Digby, poorman, emptywheel,…please, stop me now; there isn’t enough time to thank you all.
I simply thank you for the academy award.
Rove and Co have had all weekend to prepare for the Drumheller interview. CBS Evening News had a short clip from it during their Friday night broadcast and CBS had been running ads promoting it all weekend.
Mary, btw, really enjoyed your give and take with Taylor about contracts. lhp came in later and weighed in solidly on your side.
Carl to Porter over the phone at 0200 Monday:
“We’re going to need a bigger Swift boat.”
Thanks Suzanne, my bad.
I see isis2 also got the ILGA story at 63. We linked a bit differently, but both places will probably update together.
oops, I left out the last line of #178:
- cut to theme from “Jaws” -
ET- or “We’re going to need a bigger Swifter boat”?
Time to crash. Nite all.
al-Scooter @ 10:46 pm (#164) – I saw the Batiste interview on MTP today, and thought he did a good job of getting his point across without slipping on the slime. I’m hoping you’re right, and you just might be. At some point in the Iraq War we will come to the point where the cost outweighs the benefits in most Americans’ minds. We seem to have gotten there, so as others have pointed out, the Swift-boating process won’t work quite the same way.
It’s just that the Bush Admin. has gotten away with so much outrageous behavior for so long that it’s hard to believe it’s ever going to catch up to them.
wesgpc @ 10:48 pm (#167) Hard to believe the hyenas would turn on their buddy Schief so soon, eh?
Chimpy’s still in California — he got demonstrated against by oldsters with IMPEACH BUSH signs when he arrived last night at the Palm Springs airport. We’re giving him a very Left Coast welcome, from the Stanford students (and visiting parents!) to the Gropinator’s cold shoulder over the levees, to the old Palm Springsters. C’mon, TwentyNine Palms, tomorrow’s your morning to shine before Air Force One heads back east!
I missed a contracts steel cage death match?
Boy, did you guys miss out then.
Matt Stoller’s put up him Monday a.m. post at mydd.com:
“All this week, I’m going to be blogging about the fight for internet freedom taking place in the House and Senate centerted at SaveTheInternet.com. The details are covered in this excellent 2 minute video clip. If you want more detail, Art Brodsky explains on TPMCafe how the telco cartel is going to actually turn the internet from a public commons to a gated community.”
Oh, and just so we are clear, I back Charlie Wrangle’s plan for the draft so the gravity of the level of corruption sinks in to the 20% of citizens who fell for Dumbshit for President twice. Maybe after their child dies for old, white, corrupt businessmen they will realize how lazy, incompetent, and foolish they were for voting for him even once!
OT
EPU’d from the last thread but I guess I need my say.
I am a gay parent. Our girls are in 5th and 7th, school leaders, straight A students. You would be shocked how little the gay thing comes up. Kids have there own world, and I don’t mind control them. They assimilate to the dominant culture as they wish. But at the end of the day, I want them to know me, everything that makes me who I am. My partner is an amazing parent and provider, and I stay at home (right now, at least). I never thought I would be living such a “traditional†life.
But commitment is so much harder without societies sanction, without the normal rituals in front of family and friends. Gay people grow up in families–let us build our own. Marriage does not create gay families, it merely legitimizes them within our communities.
A funny tinfoil hat story –
Last year, I ran into a guy I’d known from art galleries 20 years ago. We were talking about something, and he pulled out and put on a knit cap wrapped in duct tape — a tinfoil deflector as it were.
He was serious — and seriously nuts, in a functional sort of way.
Noen, I can do two typos before I get to my first verb.
wesgpc – I have loved the quotes, here and back thread. Was it you that had the Linocln quote from his pre-President days on questioning war?
Matt O – I thought that was one of the sadder parts of Risen’s book (and the kid was Hastert’s protege too and STILL got Rummified) and the drug situation in Afghanistan still doesn’t have an actual game plan. After he met with the kid and swashbuckled thorugh his: I won’t have another American soldier die to suppot a narco state speech, only to cave and crawl away when Rummy took him to task, it made me think of the O’Neill passages about the tax cuts he was against, where Bush seemed to buy in: Haven’t we given rich people enough money alreads or something very like that, only to be shut down.
V.G. #171
I do believe the Risen book, thus far, frames Bush as aloof through self-censorship within the CIA, Rummy running the show.
Though he is not completely unscathed as there are instances where negative intelligence is turned away by the White House, though Bush is not named specifically. Bad news was not well-received in the Bush White House.
Kudos to Ed Bradley too for the deft way he conducted the Drumheller interview. At several points, he would ask something like “So what you’re saying is….?” and then nicely sum up Drumheller’s answer for confirmation, clarification, and emphasis. This really contributed to the clarity of the narrative.
–
kristinejoy –
Thanks for sharing that — and feel free to post again, in the first part of a new thread.
Mary, I agree. It is pretty sad how bad the Bush administration has handled Afghanistan. What’s worse is that their mistakes are going to last for years, perhaps decades or even generations.
Richard Clarke was right in his assessment that the Bush administration failed to create a counter-ideology to Islamic extremism, and we are paying a heavy price for the enormous blunder.
Finally made it through all of today’s great threads. Thanks to Mary & others for your clear distinctions between civil unions and religious marriage.
What’s sad is that the fundies don’t seem to want to follow their own teachings…Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
ck– I truly appreciate that.
All you can do is keeping moving on with your life and hope society catches up. My kids aren’t some test case or data point to prove anything. They are thinking, feeling questioning little human beings who are making up there own minds about this world. I wouldn’t change a thing.
Interesting refresher about your friendly local draft boards in Monday’s WaPo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00704.html
I like it, I think raw story has read my posts, they have begun to call “whistle blowers” a more precise term, “wathcdogs” which is really good, not asubles dramatic as my “sentinal of democracy” and more sublime
is it possible the wheels of justice bring our constitution back to us in the nick of time?
god bless Drumheller, where ya been?
kristinejoy – I agree with ck. Thank you for sharing.
In my research of same-sex marriages and all that surrounds the issue, one of the things that bothered me so much was this notion that gay parents are “agents of homosexuality” and actively recruit their children.
It just boggles my mind how these people live their lives believing such garbage and say such disparaging things.
I remember when I was like 13 or 14, my father told his three boys “none of my sons are going to be gay.” Recently, he told my little brother that he rather I be gay than a liberal. Sorry for airing the family issues but I just wanted to say I admire you and also ashamed of the ill treatment directed at you. These idiots that bloviate this crap fail to realize we’re all just people.
CityGirl
I also liked the way Ed Bradley read the WH’s written response, in lieu of having to answer actual questions on camera, very slowly so that it was obvious the WH was still blaming the intelligence. Nice editing in putting that near the end of the interview, after the viewer had heard all Drumheller’s comments and Ed’s clarification.
JohnC – thanks much. I learn a lot from lhp and EPU and Christy etc. on all the litigation aspects. I learn a lot about a long,long list of things from you and too many other people to mention. It’s why I love this spot. No way to get through a thread withiout learning something (except for EPU *g*) I saw backthread a comment from “Trainer” which was a new name to me, but he/she said pretty much what I tried to say, but very short and simple.
BTW EPU, my Echo & fuzzytails is ordered and on the way and my intrigued nephew is confused when I mention parallel universes and Markfromireland. At least, I think that odd look he gave me could be called *confused.*
nite
Evil Parallel Universe @ 11:02 pm (#185) – Go down to Taylor’s thread from yesterday. Mary argued, rightly I think, that a contract can’t require you to do illegal acts. (Oh, forgot, IANAL.) That should include employment contracts with secret government agencies. Her point was that classifying information about an illegal activity is, in itself illegal. I had mentioned this in the context of the NIE scandal, wondering if it might be relevant there, but the logic clearly applies in the case of the black prison network (Good catch, Mary). Kidnapping and torturing people is illegal, and the ex-CIA agent who leaked that information was just revealing a criminal act.
A related point there is that, according to the Nuremberg trials, being under orders isn’t an excuse for covering up an illegal activity. IOW, it might be argued that the woman’s legal obligation was to report the crimes, not hide them. Of course, as I may have mentioned, IANAL.
To EPU at 68 and John Casper at 75, I’m sure this post will be late, but I don’t think anyone here has a stake in denouncing someone’s (Janeane) credibility just because they’re an actress. Sounds like something Rush would say. Besides, what credibility do any of us here have other than we’re concerned folks/progressives/liberals wanting our country back. So you make fun of one of our own then you badmouth Democrats for badmouthing one of our own????
From EPU: “Chicago Tom – If Janeane Garofalo agrees with you, run with it; she’s an actress after all, so that gives her pronouncements on issues like the physics and chemistry involved in a plane crash extra weight.
A suggestion though: take it to Huffpo. They really like celebrities, celebrity news and celebrity pontification over there; I think you will get a better reception. Just mention Jeneane Garofalo as many times as you can (but not too much, you don’t want to look like a crazy person/stalker type).”
Hey, haven’t I read Jane on Huffpo….??? Are you saying that entertainers are precluded from having intellect? Seems like your post came outta right field…
Matt O. #197
“Richard Clarke was right in his assessment that the Bush administration failed to create a counter-ideology to Islamic extremism,”
BushCo did have a counter-ideology, remember?
“keep shopping”
It just was not very successful. Those two words above might be a paraphrase, but I remember listening to that little talk about what we Americans could do shortly after the attack, and that was about it: Go to work, buy gas, keep shopping, keep the economy humming. Anyone else remember? Calving Coolidge would probably said something with more human feeling. Talk about condemning themselves out of their own mouths.
Pdragon, hcoyote, others, thanks. I’ll keep my eyes peeled for updates. Just wanted to acknowledge you for your help.
Scudrunner@ 11:30 pm (#203) – When I want to know why a building collapsed, I’ll ask civil engineers and architects to investigate. When I want someone to play a part I’ll call an actor. The people who figured out how the WTC fell are the experts. They are engaged in the business of designing and building large structures. That’s a profession that requires both an education and some experience. Someone who can’t even understand the basic concepts can just sit down and shut up as far as I’m concerned, at least until they’ve taken the time to really understand the issue.
wespgc -
I slightly recall what you’re saying. Was it the “get back to normalcy” speech?
Clarke’s book is great. In a nutshell, the Clinton administration was serious about fighting terrorism, the Bush Cabal could careless.
Cujo, I don’t think I addressed anything with regards to civil engineering… I was addressing some speech that seemed very rightwing like here being said by some of us.
But I’m sure that just because Janeane’s an actress, she has no capacity to understand engineering… We all read and surmise… does anyone here know Janeanes education? Perhaps she has a better understanding than you have given her credit for… But, I’m not making that case. I just don’t think we should trash celebrities who also happen to be progressives… why help Rush and gang out?
Mary, glad you liked the quotes. As I said, I am collecting quotes of the great golden oldies of the GOP, when it had a normal-person’s wing that was not under house arrest. Quotes of old gooper greats that I think modern DLC Democrats and consultants would be afraid to utter for fear of being called extreme America-hating lefties. I think one things Dems need to do is agggressively show that modern Bushite GOP is radically reactionary and un-American. And it can be proven by matching their words to any mainstream US statesman from the founders on down.
Glad people don’t mind the slight highjacking. But, damn, it is frickin true. Poor old Gracious Bland Bob is now traitor for essentially saying this today, which Ike could write in 1963 at height of cold war:
–Un-American activity cannot be prevented or routed out by employing un-American methods; to preserve freedom we must use the tools that freedom provides. (Ike 1963)
(whether either D or R lived by that is another story, of course).
Anyway, next time FLD gets called a “lefty blog” at least they will have some admiring GOP quotes in the archives in response :-).
Yeah, that was my Lincoln quote -and I think the House DID censure Polk on the Mexican War. The grand uber-fascist ultra obedient superpatrifraligistic US of the good old days is a GOP myth. That is one of the reasons the US became a superpower.
Jane & Pach – check markfromireland’s Gorillas Guides – amazing post on Roots project!
way overdue for sleep but was doing some ykos stuff – scanned comments quickly and Zenn – as always you are my hero! beautiful past last thread – and Sharkbabe, made me cry too! thank you for letting us share that.
Ah isn’t that sweet you and CL trade site links in your posts. Scratch my back and i’ll scratch yours?
Proof reading your post would be nice, your wording sucks too, “it was very much of a ….”
LOL geeshe
wesgpc @ 11:33 pm (#204) – I remember the “keep shopping” thing. I wasn’t so upset about that statement as about the fact that we weren’t actually asked to do anything (other than toss out our civil rights, of course). No higher taxes, no bandage rolling, no “care packages” for the soldiers. I’m all for not letting the enemy make me stop doing the things I ought to be able to do, but the crassness of not making any accomodation at all was shameful.
I was reading Michener’s The Bridges At Toko-Ri yesterday, and was struck by the language of that book. For those who may not recognize it, the book is about the Korean War. The characters mentioned that back in the States no one seemed to know there was a war on. That’s how the Iraq War feels. We don’t know anything about it unless we know military people or their families.
Matt O. #207: I think so. I’ve looked for it. Significance to me is that it was one of the first things that they said after intial emergency died down. Before they decided on the misguided war to end all terrorism until the end of the universe (WTEATUTEOTU) idea.
Does anyone know when the “keep shopping” counter ideoology was announced?
wesgpc -
I’ll try looking it up. BRB
Mary 136: (I’m lagging behind) I’ll take the pony (no broken legs, please).
#212: thanks, my thoughts exactly.
#214: keep us posted on search. I can’t find it but my searching skills bad for things like that.
Scudrunner — Janeane studied History at Providence College in Rhode Island.
Reading Glenn Greenwald about how leaks are OKIYAR, I was struck by this:
So here’s my simple question…was there a warrant to intercept that phone call? If so, our government already suspected that somebody was up to no good. If not, then they were illegally wiretapping before 9-11.
Is this old news?
wesgpc- It was whispered in the presidents ear in the school room the morning of 9-11 lol Mr. Pres. Tell them to keep shopping.
keep shopping = sheep coping
Scudrunner @ 11:45 pm (#208) – I think the best way to make others respect our point of view is to display intellectual honesty. Accepting uninformed speculation as credible over the opinions of experts because Jeanine Garafalo (sp?) talked about it on the radio is not intellectually honest. Either you should learn enough about a subject to be able to understand the issues, or you should trust those who have. Otherwise, you have no business expecting that others take your opinions seriously. Even if you’re Jeanine Garafalo.
Well, it’s time to stop this, as I can’t type anymore without retyping.
Thanks, Hungrycoyote,
I did ask, didn’t I… LOL
Still, I don’t like folks looking down their noses at other folks just because they’re entertainers. We all have a contribution to make. If anything, someone with *structural* (not civil) engineering credentials (and also progressive) could volunteer to help Janeane find her voice in this particular debate… we definitly don’t need any distractions…
RGB- there have been claims that info on the hijacking was in the intel pipeline. That is where my frustration began, why was noone fired then and why did intel need more patriot powers and a department of homeland sec.
For the record, I have no disagreement with Cujo…
civil engineers can have similar responsibilities as structural engineers, up to a certain building height (though not WTC height, of course).
wesgpc says: Does anyone know when the “keep shopping†counter ideoology was announced?
More from Glenn:
So in other words, the NYT wasn’t the first to tip off potential terrorists that the US government was listening to them…the senior Senator from Utah scooped them by several years.
re smashboy: what is a “tin foil hat type”? Does this mean someone wears a fake or crumply hat?
It is very annoying to read all these magazine articles where the writers express their dismay at the mess Bush has made. Doesn’t anyone remember the Bush sons S & L rip off ?
the Republican potty:
RAW STORY
The New York Times’ Elisabeth Bumiller, in her White House letter Monday, plans to outline internal frustration over Bush’s new chief of staff, RAW STORY has learned. Excerpts:
“There is fear and moaning in the West Wing these days as Andrew Card Jr., the genial father figure who promoted a family-friendly White House, has been replaced as chief of staff by Joshua Bolten, a Goldman Sachs-trained workaholic who is exposing President George W. Bush’s aides to market forces….
…Bolten, who is single, keeps investment banker hours and is well known for staying at the office until 11 p.m….
…Bolten also likes a clean hierarchy, and is still said to be looking closely at the White House congressional liaison office and the communications operation to see if he can eliminate some people. “Josh doesn’t like these floaters,” said one Republican close to Bolten who was granted anonymity to talk about internal White House deliberations…
trying and failing to flush out a tactful way to evoke Turdblossom.
we now return to our normal non-scatalogical programming.
There should be more references to House Harkonnen in this life.
Kudos Cleter!
JWR -
I could of swore Bush rattled off exactly what wesgpc said. I cannot find it but for some reason, that is stuck in my head. I want to say it was after a question but I am not sure.
spiderpaws 228 (love that name, btw):
“tin foil hat type” refers to wacky conspiracy theorists. something to do with wearing tin foil on your head to deflect secret alien radio transmissions.
excuse my while I adjust mine.
punaise 232: a mad hatter, are you?
#229 More of the thorazine shuffle. I bet folks inside are praying for a lay off.
Matt O
I too remember the keep shopping shortly after 9/11. Perhaps it was in those PSA’s that ran. Terrorists want to stop our way of life. The way to combat is to go about our way of life with video in the background of flags waving, weddings, etc.
Punaise #232…oops, let me pull mine on then…hopefully I’ll GET the transmissions not deflect them… you may already know I spend a lot of time talking to the stars…though awake in the daylight, this is my witching hour.
And, if I remember correctly, the verbage was “go shopping”.
Matt O –
Are you thinking of that staged presser where that female reporter asked him what Americans could do in the WOT? Probably not. That wasn’t very long ago.
MATT O- I remember it. Only a day or so after. Took Pres. Ronnies lines.
…and web spinning time…watch where you step.
creatures of the night, we…..
Scudrunner — Yes, you did ask. I agree with you. Judging somebody based on their profession is not a road we want to go down. There are a lot of people who have educated themselves in areas that have nothing to do with their chosen profession. But, I think the main point was the topic being discussed belonged elsewhere. It could have just been said another way. Not that the Huffington Post is where I think it belongs either.
OT – I am not much of a Hillary Clinton fan but what is with Chris Matthews’ obsession over her? I don’t get it. Every time I see him on TV, he has to be talking about her.
Boehner/asks him three times if Clinton is a socialist
DeLay/”nobody likes a woman know it all”
Iraq War Vote/”fickle woman”
Clinton in ‘08 Poll
Watching CNBC, he continued his obsession. I believe he just called her a “political prostitute.” Don’t quote me, but I believe that was about her.
Suzanne 235, 237:
One of many citations…
Alan Raucher, a history professor at Wayne State University in Detroit, said Zieger reminds people that unlike with the Soviet launch of Sputnik, when politicians called for sacrifice and reaffirmation of national purpose, contemporary leaders responded to the Sept. 11 attacks by urging consumers to keep spending. “Once the ‘arsenal of democracy,’ America has become the ‘shopping of democracy,’†he said.
http://news.ufl.edu/2004/10/28/sputnik/
…so…Cheney’s progressed Moon conjuncts his natal Pluto in May and June…then opposes his progressed Mars…all bad hair days…wait and watch him spin…Saturn crosses Bush’s ascendant AGAIN…this is like double tarbaby
Boston Globe, September 28, 2001:
Senator Tom Daschle, Democrat of South Dakota, is urging his fellow citizens to “buy that car” and “have a good dinner.” Senator John Kerry, the Massachusetts Democrat, has been encouraging people to fly. General Motors has launched a “Keep America Rolling” advertising campaign, while Bloomingdale’s telemarketers are calling customers to promote store sales – a decision the company says is a response to President Bush’s call for the country to return to normal “as quickly as possible.”
Even Bill Clinton did his part last weekend, charging $342.79 worth of clothing at an NBA store in Manhattan. Clinton told reporters that he was just following New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani’s command to “go shopping.”
The Record (Bergen County, New Jersey), September 29, 2001:
New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and President Bush are telling us to go shopping. But what if you’re just not in the mood? Take a trip to the Rowe-Manse Emporium in Clifton to recharge your shopping batteries.
New York Times, January 24, 2002:
As part of a project sponsored by the National Foundation for Cancer Research, Oxford University and several technology companies, Windows PC users can download a free screen saver program to help develop treatments for anthrax.
The program, called Think, uses a virtual trial-and-error technique to see if a particular molecule of a particular shape can render the toxins produced by anthrax bacteria harmless.
Matt O – Whether or not Bush actually used those exact words, the “go shopping” craze was in full swing by the end of September. Here’s another:
Shopping is Patriotic, Leaders say
http://www.commondreams.org/he…..929-04.htm
Now, what was this thread about again?
During my search, found this Q&A from October 11, 2001:
A: We learned some very important lessons in Vietnam. Perhaps the most important lesson that I learned is that you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional forces. That’s why I’ve explained to the American people that we’re engaged in a different type of war; one obviously that will use conventional forces, but one in which we’ve got to fight on all fronts.
[…]
Q: Mr. President, on that note, we understand you have advisors who are urging you to go after Iraq, take out Iraq, Syria and so forth. Do you really think that the American people will tolerate you widening the war beyond Afghanistan? And I have a follow-up.
A: Thank you for warning me.
Our focus is on Afghanistan, and the terrorist network hiding in Afghanistan, right now. But, as well, we’re looking for al Qaeda cells around the world. If we find an al Qaeda cell operating, we will urge the host country to bring them to justice. And we’re having some progress, we’re making progress.
We — as I mentioned, Helen, this is a long war against terrorist activity. And the doctrine I spelled out to the American people in front of Congress said not only will we seek out and bring to justice individual terrorists who cause harm to people, to murder people, we will also bring to justice the host governments that sponsor them, that house them and feed them.
You mentioned Iraq. There’s no question that the leader of Iraq is an evil man. After all, he gassed his own people. We know he’s been developing weapons of mass destruction. And I think it’s in his advantage to allow inspectors back in his country to make sure that he’s conforming to the agreement he made, after he was soundly trounced in the Gulf War. And so we’re watching him very carefully. We’re watching him carefully.
Tons of classic rhetoric in this Q&A with the press, including “smoke them out of their caves.”
spiderpaws:
do you have Cheney’s birth date, time and place?
Dare I say it, I found this at the HuPo in the comments on this topic:
From Wikipedia:
At the time of the report’s release (July 9, 2004), Democratic members of the committee expressed the hope that “phase two” of the investigation, which was to include an assessment of how the Iraqi WMD intelligence was used by senior policymakers, would be completed quickly. Committee Chairman Pat Roberts (R-KS) said of phase two, “It is a priority. I made my commitment and it will get done.”
On March 10, 2005, during a question-and-answer session after a speech he had given at the Woodrow Wilson Center, Senator Roberts said of the failure to complete phase two, “[T]hat is basically on the back burner.” Senator John D. Rockefeller (D-WV), vice chairman of the Committee, made a statement later that day in which he said, “The Chairman agreed to this investigation and I fully expect him to fulfill his commitment… While the completion of phase two is long overdue, the committee has continued this important work, and I expect that we will finish the review in the very near future.”
In a statement regarding the release of the report of the presidential WMD commission on March 31, 2005, Senator Roberts wrote, “I don’t think there should be any doubt that we have now heard it all regarding prewar intelligence. I think that it would be a monumental waste of time to replow this ground any further.”
On April 10, 2005, Senators Roberts and Rockefeller appeared together on NBC’s Meet the Press program. In response to a question about the completion of phase two of the investigation, Roberts said, “I’m perfectly willing to do it, and that’s what we agreed to do, and that door is still open. And I don’t want to quarrel with Jay, because we both agreed that we would get it done. But we do have–we have Ambassador Negroponte next week, we have General Mike Hayden next week. We have other hot-spot hearings or other things going on that are very important.”
Moderator Tim Russert then asked Senator Rockefeller if he believed phase two would be completed, and he replied, “I hope so. Pat and I have agreed to do it. We’ve shaken hands on it, and we agreed to do it after the elections so it wouldn’t be any sort of sense of a political attack. I mean that was my view; it shouldn’t be viewed that way.”
On August 2, 2005, Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) released the text of a letter she had sent to Senator Roberts, saying, in part, “I am increasingly dismayed by the delay in completing the Committee’s ‘Phase II’ investigation into intelligence prior to the Iraq War… I stand ready to participate in this investigation in any way possible.”
On November 1, 2005, Senator Harry Reid (D-NV), the Senate minority leader, invoked a seldom-used provision of the Senate rules to place the body in a closed session. During a three-and-a-half hour discussion, agreement was reached on the creation of a six-member Senate panel to report by November 14 on “the intelligence committee’s progress of the phase two review of the prewar intelligence and its schedule for completion.”[6]
Phase two of the investgation has not yet been completed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..ce_…
By: darren
Do ya think Pat Roberts watched 60 Min.?
Gyro Gear Lose No. 249:
“Do ya think Pat Roberts watched 60 Min.?”
If so, only for damage control on behalf of the White House. Sen. Roberts does not need to hear any facts; his mind was made up long ago–Whatever the White House did was OK with him.
neuro#248: yes, just let me fish it out of my web here…
Gyro Gear Lose:
Are you missing an “o”?
neuro #248: Richard Cheney born January 30, 1941 at 7:30 PM in Lincoln, NE
spiderpaws:
Thanks. My wife might want to take a look at Cheney’s chart.
Good night, late nite people.
I guess we’re waiting for the media swiftboating of Drumheller? So far, the response in the lower rungs seems to be about his book deal, but this reaction at freerepublic was too good to pass up:
Must’ve been written by an 8 year old.
Land o’ Goshen, sometimes you need to hear a little good preaching (courtesy of Bill Moyers):
Anybody shouting yet?
You can get a over half-million undocumented Mexicans and supporters into the streets about immigration policy, or over a half-million French students to protest a work-law change, but just what does it take for the average US citizen to get off the couch?
sigh
I like this:
Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International. April 7-16, 2006. N=1,501 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.
“Looking ahead to the next presidential election, would you like to see a president who offers policies and programs similar to those of the Bush Administration, or would you like to see a president who offers different policies and programs?”
…………Similar…Different….Unsure
…………………%……….% ………%
4/7-16/06…23………70………7
10/05 ………25……….69……..6
JWR 255
That’s hilarious. My goodness, the fantods! They’re besmirching our President! Where is my fainting couch!
Where were these jackholes in 1998? Have they forgotten Clinton? Or does he not count?
fahrender says:
April 23rd, 2006 at 9:32 pm
chicago tom: maybe you haven’t gotten the word but FDL is part of the reality-based community.
the Twin Towers fell because of the paper burning.
it is completely laughable that it would have been capapable of pulling off the sabotage that you envision in your fevered brain.
take your meds and go to your room.
John Casper says:
April 23rd, 2006 at 9:05 pm
chicago tom,
Have you ever heard of a forge?
Evil Parallel Universe says:
April 23rd, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Chicago Tom – If Janeane Garofalo agrees with you, run with it; she’s an actress after all, so that gives her pronouncements on issues like the physics and chemistry involved in a plane crash extra weight.
Fascinating. FDL proudly sticks its head into the sand. Nice to see that otherwise respected FDL’ers have learned well the slime-the-messenger tactics of the right, including association with those oh-so-subversive Hollywood types.
There is great wailing and gnashing of teeth here that Billy and Betty Bush-voter refuse to give up their preconceived notions that Bush is, down deep, a ‘good’ man who has only made some honest mistakes. FDL has undertaken the mission of educating the 51% of voting Americans that they were wrong about Bush. Topics heretofore addressed have looked at myriad issues, with answers provided:
Is Bush capable of stealing an election? yes
Two elections? yes
Is Bush capable of lying and manipulating this country into a war? yes
Is Bush capable of spying on American communications w/o a warrant? yes
Is there likely much more extensive spying going on than has been admitted? yes
Is Bush capable of hijacking the economy of this country for the benefit of a few friends? yes
Is Bush capable of torturing prisoners in U.S. custody? yes
Is Bush capable of establishing secret prisons around the world where other prisoners are certainly tortured? yes
Is Bush capable of sending other prisoners to countries where their torture at the hands of others is assured? yes
Is Bush capable of subverting our form of government via an unconstitutional power-grab, and signing statements wherein he baldly admits he has no intention of following the law? yes
Is Bush capable of following the recommendations of PNAC 2000 to a tee? yes
Is Bush capable of pre-emptively using nuclear weapons in Iran? yes
Is Bush responsible for the deaths of 2,388 Americans in Iraq? yes
Is Bush responsible for the deaths of 2,801 Americans in the WTC buildings? NO WAY!!! HE’D NEVER DO THAT!!!
Wtf?
So, at the bottom of this thread titled “Is the Country Catching On?”, I’ll quote Looseheadprop from a few days ago:
I love irony.
Oh, for the love of all that’s good and holy–
Can we agree to disagree on the whole WTC thing?
To all the WTC inside job people–answer me this:
Do you think FDR had the USS Arizona secretly wired with explosives to make sure it would sink during Pearl Harbor? Was Pearl Harbor an inside job? No? Was Fort Sumter secretly wired with thermite to simulate a Confederate attack, so that Lincoln could get the war powers he secretly desired? No? Well, THAT is how kooky the inside job talk sounds.
Ignored warning signs? Sure.
Actively planned? C’mon.
I posted this on Fitz’s site…
e said.
.I firmly believe that southern culture produces these
little dictators..
slavery patterns just evolved into control of the working class in the south..democracy does not exist unless you can practice it..
those in control no matter the profession(even many religious leaders)..somewhat of a southern Mafia.. in their pinstriped suits
lined with the white sheets of their ancestors in the K pitted blacks and whites against eachother
They created a new blind hate among whites that knows no bounds in keeping blacks,Latinos, yes and even the poor whites among them (you know the name they call them)… (the rage you have seen with the talking heads Ann C., Rush, etc. that feed that hate..
in my best opinion this is what Karl Rove united (the south shall rise again)…Shamens say hate has no soul…
sorry Repubs but this is the base of their support..and once you conquer this corruption .. go and truly free the south and any other region that is now being infected with this Big Hate..
because if you are honest it has other forms in each state in the US
Orin Hatch comes to mind with the Bigamy..Big Love …
The total do nothing Congress that enjoys the fruits of this Big Hate..If they don’t work for all the people they should not be there..Vote them out no matter what party
If you can name it you can claim it and do something about it and I’ve named it Big Hate
7:19 AM
Dr Baltar 230
I’m sure Bush’s mentats have a clever plan to get out of this mess. Like…using the Family Atomics against Iran! Blow a hole in Teheran’s shield wall, have Rumsfeld ride some sandworms in there, and the mullahs will just collapse. It’ll work out great. Like all his other clever plans.
On the other hand it’s significant that a few things were left out of the 60 minutes report.
1. It was Sabri’s job to head off the US from war with Iraq.
2. Sabri stated that Saddam wanted nukes.
3. Sabri told the CIA about poison gas (WMD).
4. The forthcoming book as mentioned above.
5. Not a note about Plame. Apparently CBS got the memo that no crime had been committed regarding her status. Unlike quite a few here.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11927856/
Here’s the thing, if you folks (MSM) are going to make allegations, telling half the truth just makes you look foolish and vindictive. As a conservative I’m all for it as campaign fodder, but as an American, it just keeps dividing us. Like Jane said elsewhere, Democrats are seen as self-serving, not of service to the country.
Close friend on the inside tells me that California assembly will introduce motion to join the Illinois movement to impeach King Chimp. However, California’s wil include Cheney. News should break today. Simultaneous with this action is that those involved have learned that they are now under surveillance.
I hope this gains some traction.
So do I. This is exactly the kind of thing that will energize the conservative base.
Feed ye not the trolls while they may…
new thread – 6 months!
!ztiF
The EPU’d Zone is open for biz. Trolls and conspiracy nuts are all welcome here! So let’s hear those caustic comments and cracky-whacky theories.
Cause here in the EPU’d Zone nobody cares cause nobody’s here!
–
That’s what everyone thought the first time Cindy Sheehan (sp?) went down to Crawford.
I’m still waiting for the shock waves from her protest to hit. Or for the fallout from “Fahrenheit 911,” for that matter.
John Lyon,
Don’t hold your breath waiting for those “shock waves” to come a ripplin’ by. Shock waves only trouble animated citizens, not the numbed-down zombies we’ve become.
–
If all he wanted to do was to pimp his book, i think he is smart to do it on the Daily show. Good gawd, i sure hope people are getting it, but i’m not optimistic
undeniable liberal,
I agree with EPU’s suspicion that the CIA is at war with this administration.
What we need now is a good old fashioned document dump from the Company.
–
I think Ed Bradley just avenged Rove’s set-up job of CBS News and Dan Rather. About fucking time!
“Shock waves feel like they are starting to ripple out and it’s hard to know how far they are going to extend.” Jane, I hope you’re right!
PS: I’ve been lurking in the bushes at FDL for a long time now. Time to come out!
bicaster,
But you’re coming out in the EPU’d Zone! LOL Nobody here but us chickens.
Well you’ve got your toe in the FDL water. So, go ahead and plunge on into an active comment thread where someone is far more likely to read what you have to say.
Or, hang around and chat. It’s much less hectic here in the Zone.
–
Randall Parker, one very bright dude, posts the following on his site FuturePundit.
It may explain how we’ve all been turned into zombies making all the wrong choices.
“We [scientists at the Harvard medical school] have long known that different neurons in various parts of the brain respond to separate attributes, such as quantity, color, and taste. But when we make a choice, for example: between different foods, we combine all these attributes–we assign a value to each available item,” says Camillo Padoa-Schioppa, PhD, HMS research fellow in neurobiology and lead author of the paper. “The neurons we have identified encode the value individuals assign to the available items when they make choices based on subjective preferences, a behavior called ‘economic choice.’”
Randall Parker concludes with the following questions: “If you could change the value your brain assigns to various goods would you do it? Would you want the ability to consciously change what your desires are to make your desires more adaptive for your health or more easy to fulfill or less likely to get you into trouble?
“One of the scariest things I see about advances in neuroscience is that ultimately these advances are going to point toward directions for the development of neurotechnologies that will make personality and desires malleable. Inevitably governments, terrorist groups, and other entities will use neurotechnologies to mold minds to give them different values, desires, drives.”
Who knew it all comes down to a small group of specific neurons. I would perhaps argue these neurons are overstimulated by the profligacy of choices each of us faces everyday. E.g., supermarkets with 100,000s of choices. As I said above, a numbing-down. Roger Waters sang “Comfortably Numb”, well I guess!
–
It was the perfect Jeffrey Wygand moment. The ultimate insider coming clean with what he knows.
Add $3.50 a gallon gasoline for the summer and we’ll see just how “faithful” the his base really is.
Long live Il Duce.
It’s kind of interesting thinking about deliberate daily re-purposing of this space here at the end of the Late Nite FDL comment thread, the so-called EPU’d Zone.
It’s almost like having my own blog without all the hassle. It’s been fun interdicting comment thread stragglers who stumbled into the Zone encouraging them to catch up with the FDL herd up ahead. Just the guy at the crossroads pointing and saying, “They went thataway.” Or a part of the concert clean-up crew. Rent for the space, really.
There are several distinct unique daily EPU’d Zones in the day’s first, second, third, etc. postings as well. All of these abandoned spaces are open and available for blogsquatting to anyone wishing to take up residence after the FDL herd stampedes to the next exciting FDL posting and a once thriving thread grows silent wtih only ghosts of posts taking up space.
Oh, goodness, and then there’s all the portals to misbehavior available in the EPU’d Zone. Ah, well. It’s the same everywhere I suppose.
–
Maybe Karl was worried not about Bush being the leaker, but that Plame knew about Khan giving A bomb secrets to Libya and Iran.
To destroy an intel network on WMD proliferation at a time when there was a known and dangerous proliferator, and to do so for purely political reasons, is as basic a definition of treason as any I can think of.
When did Bush know about Khan as an A bomb secrets source for known terrorist states? Was Plame working on this?
Hey, how’s the bar and girls workin’ out for you, Al?
Actually Tenant would be the ultimate insider and I hear his book is due out later this year.
To your $3.50 gas I’ll add a costly hurricane season with no real improvement in FEMA response. Even if the damage is to all white folks.
Make sure you read Spengler on the October surprise over at Asia Times. He likes to tell you how right he’s been all along. He can be painfully irritating but worth reading.
–
Re:#82, ‘I dare you.’ Drumheller has first-hand knowledge of the renditions to East European torture camps, and who it was that signed thew orders.
bebimbob,
We’re in the EPU’d Zone since 269 above. It’s like a whole new comment thread starts when everyone moves on to the next posting.
Please feel free to post here if you’d like, but the rest of the FDL commentariat are presently elsewhere.
I basically agree with you that there’s reason to believe that Plame wasn’t just collateral damage as they targeted Joe Wilson. There’s every possibility that they were out to get her as well. Two birds one stone — one of krafty Karl’s favorite tricks.
I’ve yet to see any conclusive proof, just conjecture, that Plame was involved and spying on the Khan operation.
–
Knut,
You wrote: Drumheller has first-hand knowledge of the renditions to East European torture camps
He also dares because there’s a good chance he’s the leading man in a CIA flying wedge aimed right at this administration.
–
Acutally that flying wedge point man probably is Paul Pillar who says this in the March/April Foreign Affairs:
The Bush administration’s use of intelligence on Iraq did not just blur this distinction; it turned the entire model upside down. The administration used intelligence not to inform decision-making, but to justify a decision already made. It went to war without requesting — and evidently without being influenced by — any strategic-level intelligence assessments on any aspect of Iraq.
It doesn’t get more explicit than that.
–
911 WAS indeed an “inside job”. Even if you believe in the “they let it happen” mentallity. Its not so far-fetched to know something fishy went down when a well known NEOCON purchased the leases to the WTC properties shortly before the attacks, taking out major insurance on them and is now a HEFTY billionaire. There were major selloffs of stock in United and American Airlines weeks before the attacks, and this is reportedly still under investigation by the feds. Perhaps one building would fall, DIRECTLY INTO ITS FOOTPRINT, if you believe in miracles. But two or three skyscrapers? IMPOSSIBLE. Building 7 was never hit and the lease owning neocon slipped up in a televised interview and said it was “brought down”, trying to place blame on the NYFD. Didn’t know Fire departments exploded buildings before devising plans to demolish them by explosives. Seems to me the buildings were brought down when ENOUGH people made it to safety. SOME had to be collateral damage. Osama Been Hiding DENIED pulling off the attack as soon as he became a target. He denied involvement, but praised whomever did. Bin Laden has never denied his involvement in ANY attack he was sucessfully linked to. How does ANYTHING penetrate the airspace of the most secure building on the planet: The Pentagon. A bigg Azz airplane, with alerts going out by the FAA of the course its taking, and it doesn’t get shot down? PLEASE. The government lied. They also assasinated JFK and lied about it. Conspiracy theories are sometimes more factual than the bogus info Washington pipes to you through its corporate owned media and whorish Neocon affiliated talking heads, so beware of the boogeyman. He just might really exist. :)
p.s. I don’t wear tinfoil hats. Baseball caps are more suited for my well rounded peahead.
NoPain_NoGain,
I’m glad you don’t wear a tinfoil hat. This is a No Tin EPU’d Zone.
Here’s the Loose Change Google video, if anyone [heh] is interested.
–
J i O 279
nice!
…after the FDL herd stampedes to the next exciting FDL posting and a once thriving thread grows silent wtih only ghosts of posts taking up space.
I’m more of a move-on to the next thread sort, but it is fun to dip back and hang out with the stragglers.
ccow says: “April 23rd, 2006 at 8:51 pm OT, but has anyone linked to this as yet? Or is it a hoax?
“Bush Impeachment – The Illinois State Legislature is Preparing to Drop a Bombshell Utilizing a little known rule of the US House to bring Impeachment charges.â€
http://www.opednews.com/articl….._impeachme nt___t.htm
It is legit, read a diary on Kos and, I think, at http://www.ImpeachPCA.com
BREAKING: State-Based Impeachment Rises Again. by Kagro X Fri Apr 21, 2006
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..75612/7906
Someone’s been traveling back in time to No Comments land for mysterious reasons.
–
punaise,
Hey, thanks.
The EPU’d Zone is like one of those “scratch pad” websites where you can practice out of site.
–
Podkopayeva,
Yeah, I noticed ccow posting that. Nobody in the thundering onward FDL herd heard ccow and commented one way or the other.
In the FDL comment thread you’re either on meme or off the screen.
It’s on Raw Story today. My oh my, how far states’ rights have come!
–
punaise,
I think you may have missed this yesterday.
They sure whine when you’re not there.
–
J i O:
’twas the product of a couple of coinky-dinks. The funn(i)est was a double-take the other day when I “snuck up” on _____(?) at just the right time and effectively said “boo”. Anyway, enough about me. Catch you on other threads.
Hitting a nerve at the Corner; my e-mail exchange with Jonah.
Me: Dear Jonah — Where are all you Cornerites on Drumheller? Not even enough energy even to swiftboat him? Or would mentioning his name at all just be too embarrassing to your world-view? He flips Saddam’s foreign minister to the great excitement of the Decider and the Good People Around Him — but they don’t listen! Shocking! And neither do the “commissions” on misuse of intel! Isn’t that … wrong? Deep down you MUST be humiliated by this pathetic jackass Bush. The rest of us
are sickened by what he has wrought.
Jonah: I don’t respond to email like this. Save it for your echo chamber lefty blogs, ok? I don’t have time for it.
punaise,
I believe it was TRex that wished you were there and then *poof* there you were. It was funny.
I’ll be here tomorrow in the next Late Nite FDL’s EPU’d Zone
–
Nick,
How are you ever going to recover from Jonah’s twitty retort? Oooo, like ouch.
–
Well hell, I sure hope something comes of this.
I was just “treated” to an article in my local paper (Pacific Daily News) that actually interviewed TWO Islanders, of over 140,000 (and one of them “just happened” to be affliated with the local Republican Party), and had a headline (Front Page, of course) that read: “Guam Residents Not Concerned With Abramoff Case.”
I shit you not.
Here, where the local government (Superior court) funneled over $400,000 to an attorney in California, who then passed it on to the WH, which then had Bush call Justice, and interfer with a Criminal Investigation by having AG removed from case.
Fitz!!! Fitz!!! WhereTF ARE U?????
Let’s start the investigation with the publisher of the PDN.
Jane, you mentioned that some think that Drumheller will be swiftboated for his ’speaking out’ to promote his book. I found this when I did a search of Drumheller on Blogger.