
On my plane ride yesterday I also read Part I of the American Prospect article by John Halpin and Ruy Teixeira on closing the "identity gap" for Democrats. I urge everyone to read it. But this part in particular grabbed me:
Additional 2005 qualitative research among disaffected Bush voters in “red states” revealed that despite ongoing image problems on cultural and social issues, the central challenge for Democrats is more basic: “their elected officials, and by extension their entire party, are perceived as directionless and divided, standing for nothing other than their own personal enrichment.” 9 The following insights from these disaffected Bush voters summarize the Democrats’ challenge concisely:
I would like to believe that they [Democrats] represent the interests of working people and the middle class but they don’t. Not anymore. I don’t think they do. They’re just out for their own personal gain, the ones that are there. (Denver, older college woman)
Their leaders always seem very weak and unprepared. I am never confident in a Democrat that comes up that he can handle the political issues that come up. Especially internationally or anything. I have just not been impressed at all with their capabilities. (Appleton, younger non-college woman)
I think they’re in complete disarray and there’s just no forward momentum to the Democratic Party right now. There’s a total lack of leadership. (Louisville, older non-college educated man)
The identity problem is not a relic of poorly run campaigns of the past. The lack of discernible vision and leadership continues to plague progressives and Democrats today. Asked to identify the two negative traits that best describe the Democrats in Washington, voters in a March 2006 poll selected “no leadership” (34 percent) and “don’t know what they stand for” (24 percent) as the first and third most cited criticisms, with “too liberal” (28 percent) coming in second and “weak on security” well behind the top tier criticisms (13 percent).
I would argue, however, that the problem for the Democrats is not that disaffected red state Bush voters feel that way — it’s that I feel that way, and so do large numbers of the activist base who show up at this and other progressive blog sites. It’s a direct product of the "don’t rock the boat" politics of the DSCC, the DCCC and everyone running for President in 2008. I remember when the Feingold censure resolution came up and we were told that the Dubai Ports matter was polling really, really well for the Democrats and nobody wanted to take the focus off that with something so risky as censure. That’s great, they want to follow where public opinion polls are going. The key word here being follow — you know, as opposed to lead.
By the time the Democrats jumped on the Dubai Ports issue, all the air had gone out of it — it was energetically dead. While it was still alive, John Edwards went on Meet the Press and refused to push the Republicans on the topic’s sore spots. Nobody really seemed to care about stepping out in front of it; they were all happy to shout "me, too!" once it was already off the stage.
I contacted two of the 2008 campaigns right after the Seymour Hersch article appeared in the New Yorker, asking if they had any position on Iran. They didn’t. I fully expect to hear back from both the minute that some poll tells them it’s politically efficacious to say something.
Related posts:
- Accountability Now Targets Jim Cooper for Primary Challenge
- If I was a less cynical person by nature
- BREAKING: With 68 Votes, Sotomayor Approved as Associate Justice
- Jan Schakowsky’s Constituents Demand A Public Option – Will She?
- DC Teabagging crowd estimate pegged at 8675309 because it “has a good beat and you can dance to it”





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Whoah! Fitz!
I second that emotion!
just out of curiosity–which two 2008 campaigns?
EPU’d on the scarey WaPo article below, but:
TAKE HEART JANE. The Dems have Joe. Klein that is. Or Leiberman. Take your pick.
So how do we get the Dems to stop re-acting and become pro-active? What can we do to get they people to start taking the initiative?
cleter — I don’t want to say only because it could just be incredibly awful staff (in one instance I’m absolutely sure that’s 90% of the problem) and I don’t want to tar the candidates with that, it’s a bit unfair.
Imagine living in NY, as I do, and having to see Chuck Schumer on tv all the time. He was at the Yankee player dinner the other night, and I cringed hearing him. The guy can’t say “great game, have a great season” in a way that makes you believe he’s anything other than a pure politician.
I hate bashing our own though (except Lieberman, who doesnt count). Wish we didn’t have to.
the problem for the Democrats is not that disaffected red state Bush voters feel that way — it’s that I feel that way, and so do large numbers of the activist base who show up at this and other progressive blog sites.
That’s why we are here — if the Democratic party would show spark of progressive life, we all be hangin’ at the party blogs.
At the CTG event on Wednesday, I asked the party voter list database guy about one of his dreams — getting $6k to buy a great database. No sooner than I started talking to him, he took a call on his cell phone; he couldn’t get away from me fast enough. I was going to suggest we ask the blogs to put out a fundraising appeal — but I wasn’t worth talking to.
Bah. Humbug. Fie.
This is exactly the reason why our ills won’t be cured by any amount of clever framing or aggressive issue management (though we are certainly in dire need of both).
Our long walk in the desert will only end when a charismatic individual comes to the fore to personify our ideas, as Reagan did for the conservatives and as Roosevelt did for us.
As long as we think people like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden are our “leaders,” we are doomed to peddle nothing but failure.
Great post Jane… You’re right on with the “bigger” problem the Democrats are facing.
They keep trying to play to that ‘dis-affected’ Bush voter as if they’re somehow going to convert them into a Liberal when they best the could possibly hope for from that hardcore Bush voter is that he/she will stay home on Election Day. And by doing that, they’re helping to insure that those whoe would ‘likely’ or certainly vote for them, are so dis-enfranchised that they’ll stay home on Election day as well. It’s absurd
By the way, I spent a lot of time active duty enlisted this week and I posted a new piece about the “Real” Military’s take on ol’ Donny boy.
When the Jane Hamshers of the left feel the Democratic Party is lacking in direction and resolve, we know we are in trouble.
punaise; tarred and feathered (for BushCo I’d go with ‘farred and teathered, too.)
—-
Mary – that Risen stuff EPU’d was quite disturbing. I’ll just add that wasn’t it Gonzo who ‘testified’ (don’t think under oath) that he wouldn’t rule out the pres being able to order assassinations on US soil?
The “don’t stand for anything” stuff is partly a reaction to the goopers trying to sucker dems into putting forward their social security program when Clusterfuck’s was dying- but it’s also the result of the “New Deal” having faded as a driving force in the party.
Still people are actually pretty clear on what dems stand for.
Ask a group:
Which party is most likely to bring major changes to health care?
Which party is most likely to favor the ordinary person with tax policy?
Which party is willing to take decisive action to reduce carbon emissions?
Which party is most likely to take steps to reduce oil use?
Which party is most likely to use a multi-national approach to foreign policy?
Which party is most likely to take steps to preserve the environment?
I don’t think many people who are being honest will have any problem answering those questions.
As far as “leadership” goes- like most out of power parties- the dems HAVE no natural leadership. That only comes from having a president in the White House or a presidential candidate.
Now is NOT the time to fashion an elaborate platform to run on. As long as Clusterfuck is in the White House- it will never see the light of day. Now is the time to prove that a dem controlled congress will offer responsibile oversight to the last bloody days of the Clusterfuck regime.
The post-Rubicon Roman Senate had more integrity and gumption in it than ours currently does. I’m not kidding.
Blank, 12: Bushco is UNteathered – from the pesky little thing called reality. Making it up as they go.
Ding, ding, ding, ding. And so the bell tolls. Can you hear those distant chimes yet, Democrats? Precisely, Jane.
On the ‘this is a step in the right direction’ front, here’s an open invitation for anyone with deep pockets in the D.C. area, who’d like to help the outstanding Democratic challenger (and primary/run-off winner) for Texas Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison’s seat:
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Senator Dick Durbin, Assistant Democratic Leader
Senator Chuck Schumer, DSCC Chair,
Senator Carl Levin, Senator Daniel Akaka, Senator Barbara Boxer,
Senator Russ Feingold, Senator Evan Bayh, Senator Debbie Stabenow,
Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson, Congressman Lloyd Doggett,
Congressman Charles A. Gonzalez and Congresswoman Linda T. Sanchez
American Federation of Teachers
Invite you to join Co-hosts
Doug Haloftis, Steve Angle, Maconda OÂ’Connor, Matt Angle, Don Baker,
Nina McLemore, and Sean Roberts
For a fundraising reception
Honoring
BARBARA ANN RADNOFSKY
Mediator, Educator, Lawyer
2006 Democratic Nominee for the US Senate from Texas
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Suggested Contribution:
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Please respond to Kim Grout @ kim.grout @ radnofsky.com
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Checks may be made payable to “Radnofsky US Senate Committee, Inc.” P.O. Box 550377, Houston, TX 77255-0377.
No corporate checks please.
Paid for by Barbara Ann Radnofsky US Senate Committee, Inc.
Federal Law requires us to use our best efforts to collect and report the name, mailing address, occupation and name of employer of individuals whose contributions exceed $200 per election cycle.”
Jane, agreed. But what is it going to do to get the message across? (Props to the roots project, but it’s a more general question.) Don’t know where the phrase “it’s gotta get worse before it can get better” comes from… but is it, like, the Dems fail to win either house in congress 2006 in order to get the message? Or, can someone like Al Gore step forth to provide leadership? (disclosure: Gore supporter here- Al that is- not so much Tipper)
In response to Bob Adams:
I have always been struck by the way Democrats seem so unratbastard-ey in comparison to Republicans. Frankly, it’s hard to put a humane, educated Wellstonian figure up against a Machiavellian in a cultural climate where people know more about American Idol than the Supreme Court. Unless you can connect with them one on one (as was eloquently suggested near the end of the last thread), it’s hard to transform en masse.
As an educator, I firmly believe the root of the solution is solid grounding in ethics and the rhetorical arts, but that’s a much more longitudinal solution than what our current times call for. And yes, we should trudge on with education but we also need to get these crazy ass bastards out of power, out from behind the nuclear button desk, and safely ensconsed in the witness stands at the Hague.
And though I do believe some Machiavellian Progressive might be able to do the job (where is she?). . . I feel I can stomach an organized campaign of nonviolent resistance. And really, when we look back at the history of institutionalized injustice in this country, I think nonviolent resistance is the only thing that’s really worked (esp in situations like the civil rights movement when SO many people could have been killed had violence been used.) Last week, I had a guest speaker in my graduate seminar who was a twenty year old in late 1950s/early 60s, arrested for sitting down at a lunch counter in Nashville. He had been trained to feel the sting of a cigarette butt on his neck and not react. And as a 20 yr old, he did not react. His mom came to our class too, and we sat outside on picnic tables and she told us how she went down to the jail to make sure the guards would let her son have his glasses. It’s that kind of organization that I’m afraid we need in a world where so goddamned many people can be killed if the wrong buttons get pushed (literally and metaphorically).
John Edwards on MTP regarding Dubai:
“SEN. EDWARDS: Well, I don’t think we should discriminate against anybody, including Dubai, the UAE, but I have a different view about what we should do.
I think that this is sufficiently important to the safety and security of America that American companies should be doing it. I would start by saying companies that are owned by foreign governments should not be operating or providing security for our ports.
I’d like to go further than that and say foreign companies shouldn’t be doing this. We ought to be doing it ourselves. I think there’s a practical issue with that, which Jack just made reference to, that they’re already doing so much. So I – that’s the starting place.
I also would like to see us use this as a vehicle to talk about what’s actually happening in our ports. Five percent of our containers are inspected. We can do much better than we’re doing right now. Number one, we ought to be moving toward the goal of screening all containers. We also ought to make sure that we have a tracking system so that we know what’s happened to them in transit.
We also – we need to be – and by the way, these ins – these screenings – screening process, the use of that technology, we need to be careful, because some of these containers have lead around the outside of them, so it’s difficult to see what’s inside. And if the screening doesn’t work we may have to physically inspect them.
And then last, we need to figure out a way, and there is – there are seals available that will do this – to make sure that these containers have not tampered with. So they’re very specific practical things that have not been done by George Bush and this administration that very much need to be done.”
So just what would you have had him say instead?
cleter, In 6 Jane says “I don’t want to say only because it could just be incredibly awful staff (in one instance I’m absolutely sure that’s 90% of the problem) and I don’t want to tar the candidates with that, it’s a bit unfair.”
I say the candidates are responsible for their staff. In most cases the party is also responsible. So bottom line is no excuses. The time for being fair is over.
I’m a 48 yr old party and campaign activist (on and off for 30 years) from NC. Most others I’ve known for years feel same way. When are leaders going to get backbone and fortitude to stand for the right things.
Fitz-Spitz-FEINGOLD and Harry Taylor!
I am a life long Dem, always have been and always will be but, I feel the leadership has forgotten about me and people like me… I am upper middle class, upper middle management, I want to do the right thing and I want my leaders to choose the right course, not just to get reelected, but the right thing for our country. I know that government services need to be paid for. The Dems never reach out to me or my cohort, it seems, other than for a donation. I dont mean by policys, we are doing very well in spite of the incompetence of the current administration. But to speak for me…
For sure, I would never vote any other way but Democratic, but alot of my cohort feel they have nothing in common with the ‘base’ as it is perceived today. There is a large, professional, middle to upper middle class that needs to be spoken to.
Will this make them WAKE UP!!!
I doubt it. They pay too much to consulatnts to run a close race… and LOSE!!!!
Ok….let’s try this:
1. Iraq: we adopt the Murtha plan 100%
2. War On Terror:
a) we re-allocate the kajillions spent on Iraq to port and aircraft inspections
b) terror begins with bin Laden. We GET bin Laden. We, the democratic party, will pour our resources into the hunt. And we intend to kill him.
3. Immigration: (here I’ll dismay a few folks)…We believe in strengthening our borders RIGHT NOW. A combination of fences, patrols, and overhead UAVs flying 24/7. As to what to do with those already here, we follow the constructs of the Kennedy plan, but we’ll be open to some tweaking on this.
4. Taxes: we maintain the tax rates. In time of war, all must sacrifice. Therefore, the tax rates of the millionaires will be re-adjusted accordingly. (hehe)
5. gay stuff and abortion stuff: we are not “PRO” these things. BUT, we believe that gov’t should stay OUT of the private decisions of adults.
There you go, my “top 5″. Others may disagree, I may be off base, but….LET’S GET IN THE GAME!!!
Oh, and one thing I slightly disagree with Ms. Hamsher on (gee, what a shock!…chuckle)…Image IS important. The message is damn important…but the giver of the message also counts. Murtha: yes! Pelosi: NO. Pelosi comes off like some “wine and cheese” weakling with a big plate of quiche in the corner. Real Men don’t eat quiche! Edwards: getting closer to yes. Gore: oh yes. Kerry: sorry. Hell of a man, fine intellect, but waaaay to nuanced and formal.Feingold: only sometimes. hell of an intellect, but does he even know the difference between a half back up the middle and a down and out? Does he know the difference between a slider and a heater? Bless him, but too intellectual.
Image can count. But yeah, let’s get the MESSAGE going first!
Ghostman
Thanks for that post Jane H. Your point needs to be repeated amplified and explained, explained very slowly, until the DLC and other centroid Democrats start to listen. Also thanks for the note that some of us weirdos at the non-reactionary blogs are party workers who have spent many miles walking precincts registering voters, GOTV-ing, many hours at phone banks. But we wonder now what’s the point.
Only comment I have is that we need to remember it is not really Bush. Bush is a tool, a package, and not much more. Even Cheney is to some extent it a tool, though a much more intelligent and capable one, and much more dangerous one. We need to look beyond these puppets and try to understand what forces have driven the sympathies of the public towards reaction, and how that can be countered.
Les Ismore:
Write ON! I’ll bet that not more than one Dem in Congress understands what you’re saying. (And probable fewer agree!!!)
How about something simple, like “We stand for reason, justice and competence.” And sanity, too. And far-sightedness, and a great relationship to facts…
I’m being a bit facetious here because there’s something very false about this whole “What do the Democrats really stand for?” thing. I really think it’s a pundit-induced meme–very canned–that’s made its way into the national consciousness as being true. I mean, what do the Republicans stand for? They and their media cronies will say “Smaller government, lower taxes, strong defense.” But how fucking meaningless is that response (also extremely, tiredly canned) when the truth belies it? Government has never been larger, more bloated and more inefficient. Taxes have been lowered for the very wealthy at the cost of the greatest deficits in our history. 9/11 happened on Bush’s watch, and now the entire world can tell us to fuck off because they see how fighting a war with just 130,000 troops has practically killed us–AND we’re losing. As if China or Iran are going to negotiate with us on anything we deem relevant to our national security–would YOU?
So this whole thing about how the democrats are “mealy-mouthed and don’t stand for anything” is, it seems to me, really an RNC distraction from the fact that it’s the Republicans who don’t stand for anything. I mean, they’ve controlled the WH and C for the past 5.5 years, and this–everything that’s happening now–is the fruit of their philosophy. They don’t dare own it, and that’s the biggest subject here when it comes to party identity.
Attack, people, attack!
I was most gratified that Mary was the first in this thread to identify Lieberman as one of the main progenitors of the “divided and directionless” faction.
Thanks, Mary.
1,031 DAYS AND THE KILLING DOES ON!!!
Thanx for the post Jane, you are absolutely right…the problem is not how the “Red Sate Voters” perceive the Democratic leadership, the problem is the lack of Democratic leadership.
And as for rwcole’s idea that Bush can’t go much lower than 30%…the insane fascist vote is about 17-20% and is located in Utah, Idaho and the South…Bush will bottom out in the low 20’s.
KEEP THE FAITH AND SHOOT STRAIGHT!!
Blank K – I don’t know, but I can more likely see him giving that goofy smile he reserves for talking about executions and torture, and saying something like: “Oh, don’t let’s be silly here, I don’t think we need to be talking about things like that …”
Was it Ehrlichman who was asked that question during Watergate and just pretty much said yes? PBS had a great program on the Watergate hearings, they should play it every few days.
Re: “what Dems stand for” while I see rwcole’s points and agree, I also think you have to factor in that people feel “less” like that than they did, and party aside – when they see individual Dems, they see people who have RUN to embrace Bush and Republican cram downs. I hate to say it, but there are nowhere near enough people like Lawrence Wilkerson and Bruce Fein, in either party who, even if you strongly disagree with them on many things – you can rely upon their integrity and credibility, even when it means they have to take stands that put them at odds with their party power structure.
More OT -
From the dangerous game thread, what about the Khan situation? Isn’t it time to revisit that leak of the (then) Pakistan held al-Qaeda member whose identity and the details on the covert operation were blown during the RNC to boost the “we’re doing stuff” concept?
I know that Rice is who “confirmed” that the info had been leaked during “background” that was given out, but isn’t it time for a bit more than that? I mean – unlike the tall tales spun by Bush on the NSA issue (gosh – we would have had all the Arcadians – uh, I mean, al-Qaeda -eans, by now if only now one had told them that we spy on Americans without warrants) the London bombing fiasco is very tied in to the intel breach.
So Condi is the “confirmer” there, a “nudger” on Plame, and who knows on the AIPAC front?
I wonder if anyone has a FOIA request in for info relating to pressure put on Pakistan to capture HVT (high value targets) b4 or during during the Dem Convention and/or information relating to leaking the Pakistani undercover operation and identity of the detainee thereafer?
LAST OT — I think this would be a lovely time for print to take up the classification issue, in large part by using the uncharted territory of the “what can NOT be classified, why, and how we are supposed to know if it happens, and the consequences of someone violating the Exec Order and nonetheless classifying prohibited info.
Really – if Tenet, Goss, RUmsfeld, Rice or GWB HAVE classified info for political advantage (for example, the continuing alum tubes info) or to prevent release of info on illegal activities (the secret prisons, NSA taps, etc.) then what? Another intersections of “breaking the rules” and “no consequences.” ?
The subsets are taking over the sets.
Oh, and here’s another thing I wanted to mention, which is why I came on here, and then I got all in a lather after reading this post:
I despire Mickey Kaus. He’s Joe Klein’s vestigial twin, only not as ingenuous.
Jane:
Democrats: basic Rrant: “their elected officials, and by extension their entire party, are perceived as directionless and divided, standing for nothing other than their own personal enrichment.”
YES YES YES!!! Will the Dems wake up now!!! I thought not.
When will someone tell these {characterization deleted] Dems that if they don’t win now eiher the republic or the party will be gone in “08. Can some Dem (besdes Feingold and Murhta) please GROW A BRAIN!!!!
bonzarella #18: I do not think moderates, or liberals, or progressives need to adopt underhanded or unethical approaches to political debate or tactics. One very effective way to reframe the Bushite smears and dishonesty to have the guts to call them on it, in public, insist that the media report the political exchanges honestly and stand your ground. Look at Kerry’s last campaign -the poor man had so little self condidence that he listened to idiot consultants who said to not respond to an outrageous, lying, false series of smears.
The GOP bullies would change their tactics if they had been confronted head on much earlier.
I do not claim to know what is up with the centrist Democrats. One theory I have is that it became a fat lazy ineffective organization that attracted lots of organization type people who were good at running an organization and being apparatchiks, but that is about all. Too bad for them, that their organization fell apart just as they got to national office in Congress, or became big shot consultants. Now they are like helpless little babies in the face of the Bushites, but their self conceit does not allow them to admit it. I think simple confronting them, calling their tactics for what they are, and insisting that your position be taken seriously would be very effective.
If that theory is true, then only hope is the get rid of them.
bonzarella @ 18 –
“I feel I can stomach an organized campaign of nonviolent resistance. And really, when we look back at the history of institutionalized injustice in this country, I think nonviolent resistance is the only thing that’s really worked “
when protest isn’t enough – active resistance is called for… if the cause is worth the risk (could be a lot more than a cigaret burn). it’s not for everyone, but there are many days i feel the call.
but, as with any struggle – organization is key, but good strategic thinking & planning is also necessary. i’ve been reading and studying gene sharp’s excellent book “waging nonviolent struggle” …
To anyone intrested,my new mail adress for roots involvement in Maryland is
MDaction@comcast.net
this should keep important stuff from getting lost in the other inane crap I get.
Rwcole:
Not sure I agree. Yes, the Dems could squeak in without a “plan”, but Shrub has given so many opportunities that it is bad Dem policy to ignore it.
Norske…
I am so glad you said that again, i tried to post a reply-ment to you last thread, but my desktop is doodoo.
Anyway, it struck me that we have been in Iraq more than there are days left in Bush’s reign:
1031 days of death and killing in Iraq
1000 days left until inaugertion 2009.
Laugh? Cry? Read nighty-nite books to my son?
KEEP FIGHTING AND SAVE THE CHILDREN!
Part of the problem, a small part at least, it that many of the dems are trying to copy Clinton when he triangulated us into the prezidency and out of power. No one can give a talk starting with “the republicans are doing X, now let me tell you how we can do much better” like Cinton. And you believe him. Totally. No one else can walk that line as well as he can that I have heard. We simply have to stop trying.
That is why Dean resonated so much, at least he talked strong, and had things he believed in. But the dem leadership got scared.
Some are speaking up, but then they duck back down again. Personally, while many in America are now totally disgusted with Bush and his cronies, unless the candidates act and talk like they believe in what they are doing, 2006 will not save us. I wish I could believe but clicking my ruby slippers together is not going to help thing time around.
“that the problem for the Democrats is not that disaffected red state Bush voters feel that way — it’s that I feel that way, and so do large numbers of the activist base who show up at this and other progressive blog sites.“
me too.
I’ll repeat a commemt I made weeks ago as to why the Dems don’t fight for anything.
They want to remain the minority for the same reason NARAL wants to back congressmen who are week on abortion. They want us to keep throwing money at them to fight for us.
If the dems took the majority, we might not vote for them the next round. If we had a good majority, we would start to concentrate on getting rid of the bad dems re:them.
If they are the minority, we would only be too glad to have them, because right now, we need every one of them.
Valley Girl… Like you I’m an Al Gore of 2006 fan. He really pissed me off in 2000. But the Gore I met last year is not the same man I met in 1999. He’s filled with fire, passion and purpose. Gone was all schmarmy, schmoozy ass-kissing. At least from what I could tell in the 15 seconds I interacted with him. But I think you know what I mean.
The second post down on my blog has a piece about Al Gore and his new movie, An Inconvenient Truth. You should check it out.
There is a larger problem in this country that is now represented by both the Dems and the Repubs — both parties are idea-free. Charlie Cook has a great post up about how the Republicans have moved from their traditional eight pillars of conservatism to one or two.
Likewise the dems are left with no sound ideological (in the good sense) foundation. I have said it before, but it seems as if the politicians have just grown so old and craven and stupid , frankly, that the founding concepts of republican reprentation, individual liberty and limited government (in the intrusion sense) are only trotted out as some sort of sports drink commercial.
Y’know — consume sports drinks, who cares if you partcipate in sports.
It is this cynical stupidity that is killing us. Lack of historical understanding or philisophical raison d’etre smells like a rotting empire to me.
So, although I love so many of the thoughts put out here and elsewhere, they still taste too much of strategy and too little of responsible government theory.
Dems have a very specific mission- to take back the house and the senate. Now look where the states are that they need to win (these are just the senate- the house gets more complicated):
Pennsylvania
Ohio
Tennessee
Montana
Rhode Island
Missouri
They also need to hold New Jersey, Minnesota, and Maryland. They seem to have serious problems in New Jersey.
Their job isn’t just to win some of these- or most of these- to regain the senate- they have to win EVERY ONE of them.
There aren’t enough democrats in Montana, for example, to produce a victory. They need to deliver a message locally that those red state voters can relate to- and they need to make sure that nothing is coming from the National leadership team that cancels the message out.
It’s a very technical election- and it needs to be fought with a very technical strategy- at least that’s how I see it.
Good asessment Cathy,It never fails to piss me off when someone makes a strong stand(Dean,Feingold)and the party races to abandon them.Or worse yet attack them.Shooting us all right in the foot,then asking for money.
Nate,
I’m getting’page cannot be found’ for your site.
DMM-
If you look at the situation as I described, their behavior starts to make a lot more sense.
Sonate- well they published a “plan” a few weeks ago. It’s about as specific as you are going to see this year.
In 08 we will have a very different sort of election- and a very different sort of plan. This one is going to be a squeaker- one way or the other- and both sides will be going after “independants”.
Whoa! Who’s in that photograph?
1 link gets me into moderation? Wow the spambots must be hitting hard.
Oh well
g’night again folks.
*poof*
markfromireland
Ava Gardner
Immanentizee wrote:
So, although I love so many of the thoughts put out here and elsewhere, they still taste too much of strategy and too little of responsible government theory.
Must these be turned into dualisms? The more theory/practice divides we set up, the more we reinforce the notion that they aren’t — and can’t be — informed by one another.
I wonder how long the decider has been hearing the voices.
Rita?
Instead of trying to outdo BushCo in manipulating the fears of the NASCAR dads and soccer moms, the Dems should champion gender, racial, economic and environmental justice to bring out the half of the electorate that hasn’t been voting recently.
Nope. Ava.
What does Biden think of labor?
What does H. Clinton think about the rural tilt of the Senate?
What does Lieberman think about the responsibility of all Americans to serve or sacrifice during war?
What does Reid think about the overt racism — in schools, work, public discourse?
What does Bayh believe about the current attacks on the dignity, independence and veritable lives of women?
What does Pelosi think about unprovoked nuclear first strike as policy?
Where does Warner stand on the issue of government intrusions into individual privacy — be it information privacy or physical privacy?
And what about the dignity of all peoples around the globe — are we only kind to ourselves or is it our duty to project those ideals abroad?
Is the current professional military at all consistent with a republican form of democracy?
Do those who are protected and whose interests are promoted by the government owe that government a significant percentage of resources?
Why does anyone inherit any property upon the death of a parent/relative/stranger — shouldn’t any such property belong to the public as a whole?
That is what every party is missing — coherent answers to difficult questions.
343, rwcole: to the Montana voters:
we the democratic party, intend to FINISH IT. We will hunt down bin laden and kill him. We will also beef up our ports, and no A-rab company will ever own our ports. On the borders, we the democratic party will put the fences, patrols, and uav’s up RIGHT NOW.
Your republican candidate, the man hooked to hip with Bush, doesn’t care about bin laden, he doesn’t care if A-rabs own our ports, and he wants some sort of guest-worker convoluted thing.
Vote Democratic!
[now folks, I don’t really refer to middle east folks with that A-rab thing, but this format is for those folks up in Montana. Sometimes, you gotta step on a few toes if you’re gonna win!]
Ghostman
Democrats don’t know whether to hold on until the clock runs out or actually say something.
Absolutely, Jane.
Of course the dems could take a page from Ol Strunk’s style manual:
“If you don’t know how to pronounce a word, say it LOUDLY”—no need to add inaudibility to ignorance.
This is something goopers tend to do well. It may be totally stupid and incoherent- but they say it LOUDLY.
If not for General Clark, I would not be Dem. In fact, I was registered Green before the ‘04 primaries, when I re-registered Dem to vote for him.
No one compares, imho. Never have I been so inspired and motivated by any leader in my life. (And I’m no spring chicken!) And make no mistake, the fact that General Clark does not hold elected office does not diminish the fact that he is a natural-born leader.
http://www.securingamerica.com
Viacondotti,
“Whoa! Who’s in that photograph?”
Right click on the picture, and then right click on properties ; )
cathy,
It makes total sense,but something is gonna happen,a candidate,an event,I don’t know,something.Running like a fire whith We the People,and sweeping out the DINO’s.And their gonna fight like hell against it,the losing of their power.They could fight now for whats right,but they won’t,probally for the reasons you’ve stated.
exhibit a:
Hil: Border needs wall
BY LESLIE CASIMIR
and LEO STANDORA
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Sunday, April 23rd, 2006
Taking her hardest line yet against illegal immigrants, Sen. Hillary Clinton told the Daily News she wants U.S. borders secured with a wall or fence, possibly surveillance drones and infrared cameras.
Clinton’s proposal – which came just weeks after she blasted Republican crackdowns on illegal immigrants as un-Christian – raised the ire of activists.
But she tempered her remarks by saying that, while she supports a barrier to stem new illegal immigrants, she favors a legalization process for the 11 million undocumented aliens already here.
In an exclusive interview with Daily News columnist Michael Goodwin, Clinton said that she envisions a two-stage plan in which border security is beefed up, followed by legalization efforts in a year or two.
“A physical structure is obviously important,” the New York Democrat and possible presidential contender told Goodwin. “A wall in certain areas would be appropriate,” she said, endorsing a high-tech “smart fence” that could spot people approaching from 200 or 300 yards.
Embracing both conservative and liberal goals, Clinton said said she backs citizenship rather than amnesty for illegal immigrants, as long as it’s “earned.”
At the same time, she welcomed tougher enforcement of federal laws punishing employers who hire illegal immigrants. Clinton also pooh-poohed a work and school boycott by advocacy groups set for May 1.
great list of questions immanentize. Now how do we get to insist they get answered?
bonzarella and rwcole –
No, there need not be a false dichotomy erected. But my point is that “winning the house and Senate in the Fall” is starting to lose meaning for me. Sure I share that goal — with time, energy, thought and a lot of $$$.
But to what end? So that the Democratic controlled congress will support the nuclear attack on Iran.
C’mon, why are we in this fight if our front line is so fucking useless. Winning as a goal unconnected from purpose will lead to Bush doing whatever he wants for the next two years. Bush knows it — he counts on it. There will never be a Dem based impeachment. And you all know it too. If there appears no core ideals in the Democratic wins of 2006, — Say hello to President McCain.
I’ve never spent any time in Montana- but they are one of the reddest states in the nation- and they elected a dem governor who they are very happy with. Individual candidates will win this election. The national figures will probably do more harm than good.
By the way- the dem candidate for the senate has a small lead right now.
DMM-
Well one thing that will help is if Lieberman loses to Lamont. I hope that would send a clear message that we won’t wait for a majority to get rid of the dead weight.
Just out of curiosity, can this website post stories in one larger font size? It seems so bright (the stark white) and the letters are so tiny.
Thanks.
imman- Don’t think that Clusterfuck sees it that way. If he loses either house, he knows that there will be serious investigations into his conduct in office- and that he cannot withstand the light of day.
Just because you don’t find everything you dreamed of under the tree doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a good Christmas.
GrandmaJ #38: I think people misundestand Clinton. Sure he was a triangulator, often too much for my taste. But he had real honest ideas that did not fit in either party, and he went to bat for them. He also started with much more liberal proposals the first term (his health insurance proposal for instance) but trusted some people and interest groups that were dishonest and gleefully stabbed the Democrats in the back. As Clinton saw the reality of what he could do and how it could get done, he changed tactics.
I admit Clinton ended up with few inspiring big proposals -his infamous “small idea” laundry lists. But many DLC types seem to want to start where Clinton left off. Clinton’s laundry lists were the product of a late second term lame duck president with a hostile congress. But the DLC types look at where Clinton ended up and cannot conceive of starting anywhere else. They think that reading tea leaves in the polling reports, thinking small and totally non-ideologically so you will offend no one (especially conservatives), and then coming up with a numbingly wonky laundry list of idealess nano-policies is the ultimate in leadership. But that ain’t gonna work. It ain’t gonna win elections. It ain’t gonna produce enough passion for governing if they do win elections. These latter day self-proclaimed Clinton clones are losers, and soon they will rack up pathetic losing records worthy of the Federalist and Whig parties (which, uh… went extinct).
#64….interesting. 2 things about hillary:
1. I can’t stand her
2. She DOES have her people constantly sorting and sifting thru polls and so forth….her making the statement you quote tells me that her people have ID’ed this as a huge issue.
Food for thought.
Ghostman
Has anyone on the east coast seen the 60 minutes show yet? Was it revealing?
i says, you can biggen them yourself: Cntr plus + in Mozilla, or look unter the view menu.
typeface sizes (fonts) are all adjustable to suit individual users. this is a feature of all browsers. use the help screen of your particular browser to find the adjustment method. I routinely fiddle with fonts…
Just went to the view menu and tried to increase font size- didn’t seem to do anything.
mmanentize #66: so, you are trying to depress us today? If the Dems cannot frame the Iranian nuclear pre-emptive strike in a way to prevent themselves for voting to let Bush do a second act, then the Democrats are truly exhausted as anything, even as a joke. Surely they have the guts to say
–no pre-emptive nuclear strikes period
–no conventional strkes or “police actions” without full Congressional information and deliberations
–no more dishonest bad-faith BS like Bush pulled on Iraq.
If they cannot make the last case, then we need brand new Democrats.
Here’s a good article on the Post’s “Good Leak” editorial. This guy’s my favorite but I thought Jane’s was better.
http://consortiumnews.com/2006/041906.html
#72: But Ghostman, clearly, even though you can’t stand Hillary you do admit that neither she nor any other Democrat could be worse than Bush, right?
to most folk here, the 60 Minutes was nothing new – it was a good summary of “uranium claims” and included a new voice corroborating the stovepiping into war…
The dem message is not something which can be shrunk down and fit into a sound bite like “less government” …lower taxes. When the repubs scream that, it is assumed that the dems are for the opposite.. big gov, more taxes. Rubbish.
The dems are for GOOD GOVERNMENT, government which works for the PEOPLE not the WEALTHY people. They are for accountability and ethical behavior. They are for justice and regulation of out of control and unfair practices… not unfettered freedom in the name of wealth creation.
Dems are for preserving and protecting the environment though laws and enforcement of STANDARDS.
The dems are for working with the community of nations, not dominating them in a New American Century. Dems are for protecting our people, our environment, our shores, our constitution and the rights it guarantees, our health, our right to work, our pursuit of happiness… NOT THE PURSUIT OF WEALTH. Dems stand for equity, justice, and protection of our land, our laws, our rights… and to hold accountable those who ignore these precepts.
Democrats should be standing for people before profits…
I have always thought that the concept of “effective government” was just waiting for someone to discover it. Government that actually DOES what it is supposed to do. For some reason- it is of no interest to either party.
Thanks *ilson-
I won’t waste my time then. I like to watch Americas Funniest Home videos with my daughter much more than 60 Minutes.
bkny #64 and Ghostman #72:
I’ve seen two independent polls saying 75% (and 74% in other polls) that voters want law abiding and working undocumenteds to have path to citizenship. I don’t know about the wall part, but the majority of US citizens definitely against the House GOP criminalization approach. Even Bush ran away from that… for same reason Hillary did, Bushites also go over the polls with a fine tooth comb.
#79, chisholm: hillary is a particular hot-issue with me. Yes, she’d be better than Bush. I agree. But, she represents the ONLY possible democratic presidential nominee who I would NOT vote for. I’d vote for Mickey Mouse before I’d vote for her. And if she’s nominated, she would mark the first time I have never voted for the democratic presidential nominee in a presidential election.
Ghostman
If Hillary is the Dem candidate for 2008, I won’t be voting, at least on that line.
Wrt to a timeline, it has been 1686 days since 9/11 (Courtesy of Swopa). To compare
Clusterfuck’sBush’sphony oilwar toa realWorld War II, it tooka real PresidentFDR, about 1,260 days after Pearl Harbor (December 1941) to launch D-Day (June 1944).Dems continue to lose the “diction” wars. Bush is “occupying” a foreign country.
jen at 61:
I basically agree about Clark. He’s very smart, has red state appeal, and doesn’t have to explain every vote he ever cast in the Congress.
Recently, however, I caught an interview on This Week with Georgie S. and was dismayed at how “slick” he has become. It’s a good thing to have media savvy, but every now and again you have to give a straight answer.
I hope he lasts until 2008.
And another thing… Democrats also have to get guts to point out how far to the right, the very far extreme reactionary right, the Bushites have taken the GOP. They are going to have to challenge the rightwing GOP’s attempt to monopolize patriotism. They cannot avoid these confrontations anymore. The Bushites, in full public view, tried to dismantle Social security, and they tried it in a very dishonest and irresponsible way. Everyone knows this (hey, read the polls!!). Unbelievably, the Bushites have attempted to brand honoring, even mentioning, US Iraqi war casualties as unpatriotic, as traitorous, politically motivated attacks on the nation. Numerous politicos and Bushite allies said so right out in the media. That simply cannot be allowed to stand. It is just too big a disgrace, way too blatant. Similarly with attempt to replace US fiat with traditional international relations.
Forgive me for making maybe too long a comment, but I think this is an interesting test for some of our Democrats, to find out whether they believe in anything, if they have the guts to say what they believe. Below are some Theodore Roosevelt quotes from Wikiquote -things a Republican/Progressive said, all of them almost 100 years ago. I wonder how many of the following things many centrist Dems would be able to say in public without peeing their pants. If they do not believe in things that a Republican could say 100 years ago, are they really liberals, or moderates, or really anything at all anymore, other than wanna-be reactionaries?
(BTW, some bloggers who presume to fashion themselves as “Moose†might want to consider some of TR’s advice on foreign policy)
Those not interested in wondering how many modern Dems would compare to TR of 100 years ago, skip everything below asterisks.
***
We wish to control big business so as to secure among other things good wages for the wage-workers and reasonable prices for the consumers. Wherever in any business the prosperity of the businessman is obtained by lowering the wages of his workmen and charging an excessive price to the consumers we wish to interfere and stop such practices.
The vast individual and corporate fortunes, the vast combinations of capital which have marked the development of our industrial system, create new conditions, and necessitate a change from the old attitude of state and the nation toward property.
There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships.
To waste, to destroy, our natural resources, to skin and exhaust the land instead of using it so as to increase its usefulness, will result in undermining in the days of our children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand down to them amplified and developed.
Every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it.
“Speak softly and carry a big stick— you will go far.†If a man continually blusters, if he lacks civility, a big stick will not save him from trouble, and neither will speaking softly avail, if back of the softness there does not lie strength, power. In private life there are few beings more obnoxious than the man who is always loudly boasting, and if the boaster is not prepared to back up his words, his position becomes absolutely contemptible. So it is with the nation. It is both foolish and undignified to indulge in undue self-glorification, and, above all, in loose-tongued denunciation of other peoples. Whenever on any point we come in contact with a foreign power, I hope that we shall always strive to speak courteously and respectfully of that foreign power.
[nations should] form a League of Peace, not only to keep the peace among themselves, but to prevent, by force if necessary, its being broken by others. The supreme difficulty in connection with developing the peace work of The Hague arises from the lack of any executive power, of any police power to enforce the decrees of the court. In any community of any size the authority of the courts rests upon actual or potential force: on the existence of a police, or on the knowledge that the able-bodied men of the country are both ready and willing to see that the decrees of judicial and legislative bodies are put into effect.
OT but not entirely…Arlen Specter (R-PA) often tries to appear moderate and even liberal–now he’s saying the government should consider an excess profits tax on oil companies. (Can you imagine how a Democrat would get flamed for proposing that?) Is he serious, or is he just going to grab a headline or two and then slink back quietly into his covert role as a reliable White House vote in the Senate? Is he up for reelection this year? Anyone from PA want to comment?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12451034/
Good post, Jane. Bush’s numbers are awful and getting worse and the Democrats are doing what exactly? They are standing for what exactly? It reminds me of the scene from the Wizard of Oz where the Munchkins won’t come out even though they can see a house has fallen on the witch. They don’t do squat until the witch is declared not simply really dead but most sincerely dead. The Democrats are Munchkins and about as relevant. A lot of voters are out there looking for a party and a candidate to vote for and so far they have gotten exactly nothing from the Democrats. Dumb luck is not much of a strategy but it seems to be the only one the Democrats have and have had for the last five years.
got lotsa catchin up to do – after watching Sopranos
but must say – Best. Graphic. EVER!!!
Nate,
I’m getting’page cannot be found’ for your site.
Sorry about that DMM. I was missing a letter in my blog address. I’m a lousy self-editor! :-)
Get In Their Face!
-Nate
neurophius: The GOP called that kind of thing vicious class warfare and socialist inefficiency when only tofu eating Boshevick, dmeocrat voting Californians (and their suspect fellow travellers on north pacific coast)were paying throught the nose for energy. Now that GOP voters all over the US are paying, well, not so much!
wesgpc
Sorry, I am just a bit angry/depressed at the 1000 (days of) missed opportunities for Democrats to first oppose and second explain the opposition principle.
As for a good Christams — I don’t want everything, rwcole, just no more needless bags zipped up with dead people in them. That is my bottom line. And I do not see the Democratic wave as stopping that reality. As for what George W. Bush thinks about losing Congress — well, we’ll see. He doesn’t play ball with his friends in knee-pads, why should he with his enemies? And, let us not pretend that Congress currently has any power to force anything. If the Dems win, it will be slim slim slim and nearly unmanageable. Nothing will happen vis a vis Bush for several months — at least more than a year — and by then, all anyone will be thinking — and all we will be talking about at FDL — is the next election and how that one will really be the one to change everything.
Smile!
PS Just filling in for Mary this evening.
Oh….one more thing: Ms. Hamsher quotes several articles which talk about how people think that Democrats are just out for their own personal gain. Huh? What am I not understanding? I would attribute the selfish money grubbing ways to repubs….but these folks quoted by Ms. Hamsher talk about DEMOCRATS being self-interested.
What am I missing, or not understanding? There’s something there in those quotes….I just don’t know what it is.
Ghostman
bonzarella #18: Thanks for your post in reply to my questions. I had a friend drop in unexpectedly, so I was away from the keyboard for a while.
It seems that the Republicans have cornered the market in smear tactics and “mean-ness” when it comes to politics. Watching Kerry stiffly not respond to that awful “Swift-boating” was painful…but I don’t think we can win by stooping to their levels, either. Those guys are just too good at being mean for most Democrats.
But I would like to see less hesitation in fighting the Republican slander; it’s important to correct any falsehoods before they become an accepted fact as a result of pure repetition.
There’s obviously some equalibrium where Dems can attack their opponents with truths and not be confused with walking pond scum. We can fight them without being “mean”, but only if we are decisive and firm about it.
imm- read all your posts this eve, thanks. Not up for much in the way of coherent responses this eve, but thanks. How are you doing in general?
wesgpc 77-
I’ve been talking to all three of my congressfolk (Kerry, Kennedy, and Rep Capuano.) It’s like pulling teeth on Iran. Nothing stronger than “we disagree with the President’s approach”. The best I could get on consultation was “we always think consultation before use of force is appropriate”–not even “required”. (From Capuano, one of the House sponsors of the impeachment investigation.)
imman 66–I for one do not think that a Democratic House and Senate are a sure thing to stop the Madness of King George. But I do know it’s the only chance.
Ghostman #97: The GOP has labeled the Democrats just in the same way FDL has labeled Sierra Club and NARAL. They are accused of being operators who are more interested in raking in bucks for their lobbying machine than changing anything. They are running an ineffective protection racket. For GOP and Dems, I think it goes back to Reagan saying Democrats were taking advantage of African Americans, through their paid agents, the African-American religious and civic leadership. Advertize racial discrimination, do nothing at all to change it, give lip service to “liberal pieties” and ask for more donations and votes.
I think it is fair to make that charge.. after all, I think such operations have existed. So question is, have Dems made a convincing response? I don’t think they have. I don’t think bashing African-American community periodically to show we are not sympathetic to some social pathology or other, and then slinking out of the room when the racist GOP talking points start to fly, is an effective response at all.
And I wonder what the Sierra Club and NARAL will have to say in response to FDL and other’s charges about them… will they have an interesting answer?
Check out what Brad Friedman has to say wrt to his lunch with Senator Feingold– the whole thing is worth a read– here’s a snippet:
I had two major points that I was curious about and hoped to get a sense of from him during our meeting. 1) Why he chose not to tell any of his Dem colleagues about his Censure Resolution condemning Bush’s warrantless domestic spying program before announcing it on This Week and then introducing it in the Senate the following day and 2) If he understood the extent of the havoc being wreaked on our country and democracy in the wake of the Help America Vote Act (HAVA).
I was able to get fairly informative answers to both questions…
His answer to the first question was much appreciated. First, he made clear that, contrary to the general impression out there, there is no rule or requirement for a Senator to confer with anybody before proposing something on the floor of the Senate. Thus, he simply proposed the Censure Resolution having decided that “it was the right thing to do.”
That decision came, he said, after the end of the year. He had been encouraged by the tough stance the Democrats had taken concerning renewal of the Patriot Act before the session ended, but found that during the break their resolve seemed to have disappeared and they returned to their “fox holes”.
“Fox holes?” I interrupted…
“Yes, I said, fox holes,” he answered back quickly, with a clear inference that he had chosen the words quite deliberately.
Once he’d felt the Dems had again lost their resolve to fight, and once the information concerning the warrantless NSA spying had come to light, he’d decided the right thing to do was to simply take action. And he did.
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00002724.htm#More
Ghostman: Ms. Hamsher quotes several articles which talk about how people think that Democrats are just out for their own personal gain. Huh?
I haven’t spent as much time reading the links as I usually do. But, my perspective fwiw is that “personal gain” is the opposite of “serving the constituents who pay your salary”, and on those grounds, there does seem to be an element of personal gain in the Dem’s actions.
Sorry to go off topic here but I saw this earlier today and I am not sure if it is too good to be true. Is this for real? Has anyone heard of this before? Illinois folks? Ms. Hamsher? I am not one to beg but please, please follow the link.
Agreed Bob and Imm. . . Decisive, firm, rational, swiftly responding in coherent, logical ways to wingnuttery bullshit is essential.
I also would not that dems should not “misunderestimate” the power of pathos. The Nashville Film festival was this weekend, and I saw some great stuff and was reminded of how powerful appeals to emotion can be. (I’m thinking in particular of a short documentary that simply showed images of people who have been disenrolled from Tenncare.. . backed up by haunting music by maura o’connell and john prine)
We have to appeal in character and in logic and in pocketbook and yes sometimes through fear (of the bloody preemptive nuke strike flavor) , but we also can’t forget that there’s something powerful about appealing to people and changing their minds on very human emotional levels. (Of course, that can get totally fucked up and duplicitious, too, so handle with care.)
Professor Foland #100:
It is bizarre, and frightening. The CA roots group, and one or two other groups who sent e-mails have not even asked for the stereotypical progressive pacifist stuff like “no bombing at all” since I guess who knows what might be needed in five or ten years. Just the three basic things I mentioned in last post, that I would think any sane person would want to make sure of before a little thingee-bobber like a war was started. Surely, wouldn’t Democrats want to ensure that there are not questions about dishonesty and bad faith following any action that might be needed to be taken against Iraq? Wouldn;t they want to ensure Bush administration not spreading disinformation, that it actually would try *participating* in real multilateral talks, or holding bilateral talks, before war?
Is saying no to a *pre-emptive* nuclear strke that outrageous? Ike didn’t even want to use nuclear weapons against Japan when we did! How times have changed.
It is pathetic and frightening.
rwcole,
The dems with no plan articulated will equal election halls empty with Bob Dylans Like A Rolling Stone playing in ‘06 and ‘08. Your list is evcellent just needs a leader. Like this mornings talk shows both Kennedy and Kerry pull the political stop short, never driving the message home. Joe Biden said on Bill Mahers show 52% do not vote and post illistrates why so very well. Dem leadership would pull more meaningful votes from that pool than rehabilitated Reps. All of that said regime change is clearly priority one.
Nate… your name/ link to your site has a problem.
I may have spoken too soon flippantly about 60 Minutes. Josh Marshall observes wisely http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..php#008284
3101 wesgpc: ok…..hmmmm. I’m sorta CLUELESS on what you raise. What lobbying machines? This is all news to me. I am NOT disputing what you say at all….I just think, between your response and Ms. Hamsher’s quotes….there’s some “big fat monster” out there that I’m just not aware of. But, MANY folks are. There’s a huge key here, and it hasn’t really been discussed in this thread….but I wish we would. I am baffled on the details of this.
Ghostman
The issue is not message or policy. Its character and principle. It means standing up for what you believe in despite what the polls say. It means not running away from a fight. It means speaking in simple clear terms not all around the issue. It means focusing on the how an issue affects real people.
This Nov, Rove and the Repubs will throw everything they got. Every dirty trick and October surprise will be part of the mix. The DC Dems know this will happen. Will they be prepared and get in front of the issues now when they have the wind in the sails or will they react incoherently like deer in the headlights when it hits them in Oct? Their recent track record does not engender any confidence.
The first thing I got, and this was a poster I would call ‘middle of the road’ (def. not wingnut — maybe Libertarian) on another site that is Mac oriented with a political playpen when I posted about our netroots activity to actually have real face time was “be sure to bring at least some sort of bribe, even if it’s clipped coupons.” The thread was along the line “You’re all about complaining via keystroke. Try actually doing something about it.”
So, there is a generalized felling that crookedness is equal opp for both sides of the aisle.
As for Dems and winning…some have voiced theory that they don’t really want to , for whatever reason. Objectively looking at the political landscape, and Dems actions and failures to act, makes me think the theory fits the facts.
But I’m willing to be surprised!
And is that Ava shot from a particular movie (I’d bet Mitchum is co-star)? I can’t just be standard publicity shot, I wouldn’t think.
Actually, I think we should find another term for what is being threatened than “war” I read an article someplace pointing out that we cannot have a war with Iran, at least one on land since we do not have enough troops available to accomplish anything. So we can have airstrikes, blow up somethings, kill a few thousand to a few million people, and hope that improves the situation somehow. Is there a simple phrase that conveys that? Anyone know?
First — Ava Gardner. Yowza. Good God, what a beautiful woman.
OK, on to business.
Jane — exactly right. What I don’t get is why “the message” is so freaking hard to articulate.
Republicans believe government is oppressive, intrusive, ineffective and inefficient. They think the scariest words in the English language are “I’m from the government and I’m here to help”. The believe government should be drowned in the bathtub. They think government is a bad thing, a necessary evil, to be kept on the shortest possible leash.
Democrats believe in effective, responsive, open government, acting in the public interest and for the public good. They think government is a good thing, a useful and beneficial public institution.
Each party creates the kind of government they envision. Who would you rather have running things?
Ghostman #109: I was explaining the GOP smears against Dems, I wasn’t saying that they were true.
immanentize, imo, the Xtian notion of “original sin,” is appropriate here. Augustine’s formulation of “original sin,” is vital to our own impulses toward “perfectionism.” According to Augustine, Pelagius believed in the perfectability of human nature. Whether Pelagius actually believed this is less important than Augustine’s understanding of the logical ramifications of it. Augustine and all great Xtian teachers are united on this, a Xtian, we can never “earn” God’s salvation. No matter how much good we accomplish, no matter how much we suffer, salvation is always a gift. Another point all Xtian theologians agree about is that our actions matter. This is a paradox, but every religion “cries mystery,” at some point.
The buck stops with us, we, the American people, elected these bozoes, and it’s our job to clean up our mess.
“police action” has worked before… (ask the Koreans)
Mass murder from afar? Terrorism? Deployment of weapons of mass destruction? So many come to mind, wesgpc.
valley g,
I’m OK, work is a mess — meetings with everyone — faculty, deans, provost about a little political bruhaha I helped create….
Son turned five, mother-in-law staying from Texas, and we had a nice party with eight kids — even though it rained and we couldn’t go out, it was fabulous. Imm Jr., from the top of the stairs with paint in his hair: “This is the best time I’ve had in my life!” Lucky little fellow… makes me happy.
Unfortunately, not enough time to hang here where I am also happy….
I hope you are well, end of semester and all ….
well, well, well. i second *ilson46201’s recommendation at 108 — take a minute and read tpm on drumheller. . . josh marshall just got off the phone with him.
valley girl: read Ms. hamsher’s article, towards the top…she quotes from someone, who quotes from voters. Right up towards the top. You’ll see what I mean.
Ghostman
Angie #102 Thanks for the heads up and the link to the BradBlog article. It was great reading.
Clusterfuck is the president- and he has to get us out of this mess with Iran. He is (or should be) negotiating- using every carrot and stick in the US arsenal. It is not proper for dems to make public statements that would cut his feet out from under him. They SHOULD make it clear that congress is to be consulted before he does anything. Anything more is treasonous- as is anything less.
#114….well, ok. But what exactly were these smears? Obviously, they had an impact. What were the details? It sounds like the Democrats need to counter this, but I can’t GET IN THE GAME on this one until I know the particulars of the smear.
Ghostman
*ilson # 108
thanks very much for the Joh link
I’m having some kind of scandal fatigue induced brain fade -
“He was interviewed by the Robb-Silverman Commission. Three times apparently. “
I thought Robb-Silverman was prevented from going the intel – am I thinking of another so called oversight entity ?
anyone ?
ender 104
Yes, it’s for real (in the sense of there is a proposed bill), if you don’t believe me, here’s the Illinois Legislature’s website
http://tinyurl.com/nt347
with info on the status of the bill. Also, you might find
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..75612/7906
useful, KagroX at dailykos has been all over state-based impeachment (as far as I know he’s the one who even realized it could be done, but I could very well be wrong about that.) That’s surely the best place to learn more about it.
John Casper 115:
Very nice and I agree with your analogy. Y’know, if you ever took a psuedonym, “Augustine” would be perfect and appropriate and meaningful.
Too bad Domenech screwed it up for the thoughtful.
You are welcome, Valley Girl.
imm- when is decision time? (no need to answer if you don’t want to). And the brouhaha- was that the call-in/ hot line for police reports? Yeah. End of semester. Counting every day. Partly why my brain is not up to much. So glad Imm jr. had a great time- must have made you feel really good, what he said.
Next week the White House will start the “bragging” about the great success in Iraq. We’re gonna see GW Clusterfuck all over the place saying that Iraq has solved it’s political squabbles and that we are seeing the birth of a new democracy in the world. Take your anti nausea pills.
Armando on this topic over at DKos
The American Prospect has published the first part of Ruy Texeira and John Halpin’s four part article on Democratic political strategy, messaging and branding. Their conclusion on what Dems need to do? Stand for something:
rwcole–I mostly agree with you 122–in fact all my calls to Reps have been to say “Make sure Bush thinks he has to come to Congress, and make sure he hears privately that you won’t stand for it”.
But I disagree on one point. A pre-emptive nuclear strike should be taken off the table publicly. Every day it stays on the table is a day nations that signed the NPT think “God damn, are we a bunch of chumps”. And NPT’s withdrawal procedures are not that onerous…
American security interests surely gain more from a robust NPT than any empty threat to use the weapons. And non-empty threats that get carried out are disastrous to American security interests.
Way OT and probably EPU’d – I have a new blog, “Connecticut Bob” that details CT politics, especially the Lamont campaign now that I’m volunteering for them. Drop by and leave a comment. Thnx!
VG — decision March, 2007.
Yes, the hotline is still making folks nutty.
85, 86 &87:
clinton’s my senator and i most definitely won’t vote for her reelection. her support for an anti-flag burning law is the most craven move yet, because no one believes she’s doing it for reasons other than cynical political calculation.
on iran — she uses the same war-mongering language fredo does; and her priority is israel.
and on tweety’s show today, they spent a considerable amount of time ‘who is hillary’ ‘what does she stand for’ — the punditocracy can’t wait to begin the hillary bashing and she apparently can’t stop herself by giving them plenty of material to work with.
she wwill be a disaster for the democrats in 08.
VG — decision March, 2007.
Yes, the hotline is still making folks nutty.
gotta sleep — take care all you thinkers at the lake.
sorry for the refresh double….
You know, if the Democratic leadership began being less cautious, fearful, and “focus-group oriented,” the worst that could happen would be that the American people would reject their authentic, courageous, principled voices and re-elect the rotting Republicans. We already know for a fact that meely-mouthed, middle-of-the-road, don’t-rock-the-boat-ism doesn’t get Democrats elected, so what have they got to lose?
Never mind, found my point of confusion -
11/19/05:
MR. RUSSERT: The Robb-Silverman Commission did not look into the use of intelligence by policy- makers.
hey Bob Adams – also O/T – you mentioned a boat a few threads back, are you a sailor ?
if so, are you aware the Volvo Open Ocean series (Formerly Whitbread) will be in NYC soon? big brouhaha over city paying for dredging to accomodate. my poor land locked husband was telling me about it
new thread, folks
new thread – new Al
“The issue is not message or policy. It’s character and principle. It means standing up for what you believe in despite what the polls say. It means not running away from a fight.” – ab initio
AMEN. Again and again.
Some excellent discussion and perceptive points being made on this thread, immanentize, wesgpc and others [’people before profits’ sort of covers half the bases alone, doesn’t it, *ilson46201].
angie – thanks for the alert about Brad’s interview with Russ Feingold. I’m delighted he was invited (I read Down With Tyranny’s brief version as well – Howie was there and impressed too). Brad is one sharp cookie. EXCELLENT questions.
Something that has lingered with me:
A comment in a front-page Daily Kos diary about the Democrats a couple of days ago gives an inside account of one Senator’s thinking. This commenter had worked on a “non-political” project with Byron Dorgan of North Dakota about a month ago. He/she was impressed by Dorgan’s pleasant demeanor, and proceeded to ask Dorgan about Feingold’s Censure Resolution. The response was “bristling” opposition from Dorgan. Why? this person asked him. The answer from Senator Dorgan: “When your enemies are beating each other up across the street, you don’t walk over to get in the middle of their fight.”
That answer makes me want to grab hold of Dorgan until I can shake sense into him. Who are these “enemies” who are fighting across the street? ONE “enemy” is the Republican Party. The OTHER “enemy” is the AMERICAN PEOPLE. And when we plead for intervention from Dorgan/the Democrats, they “bristle” at being asked to intervene on behalf of our country and our Constitution to help We, the People.
Might get their clothes dirty, don’t you know. Party power for Party power’s sake alone, seems to be all the Congressional Democrats can stand for, as a UNIT.
cbl – yeah, I sail. There’s a link to my sailing blog on the CT Bob blog. Off to the next thread!
Marshall seems to come to conclusion that the Sen ‘reports’ are coverups because they didn’t include this guy’s info.
I ALREADY KNEW THAT W/O READING A WORD OF ANY OF IT!!
Fuck. Now ya can ‘prove’ it.
Sorry, but on this shit I am just cynical. As in, how much closer does this BOMBSHELL bring to regime change?
We already KNOW everything; the carnage continues. Pardon my lack of enthusiasm that THIS NEW REVALATIONS CHANGES EVERYHTING and they’ll have to admit it all now and the nation and Constitution is saved. Please.
Missouri for now. I’ll believe it when the regime changes.
Can’t resist the Montana challange.
This is where the smart play is also the right play. You attack their strength’s and the main strength out there round Wyoming parts near as I can tell is the ‘ smaller gubmint- less taxes’ meme. So you can promise universal health care AND lower taxes by making a cast iron rock solid carved in stone promise to shrink the size of the state. To do that you make major cuts in unnecessary military-entertainment complex pork.
Take Star Wars -please.
Higher taxes for the rich coastal elites?
That can be arranged too.
Now how we gonna get them dadgum tourists…sorry terrorist critters and varmits?
Well bringing back the brains and defenestratin’ the Boykins would be a good start. Some mighty fine military minds were transfered out to Anchoridge and the South pole for speakin truth to power at the pentagon.
See Barb ‘ army brat’ Boxer, Murtha and Russ are right. It’s time for movin and it’s time for changin’
Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice.
Trust but verify. It’s time.
Oh yeah – guns are cool and we are going to deport us some foreigners. John Yoo, Albie Gonzales just for starters.
I think people are looking at this issue wrong. If you look at successful (winning elections) party leadership, it doesn’t happen by the Party leaders getting together and hashing out a consensus platform. Instead, it is usually an ambitious politician dragging his party, kicking and screaming, to the platform he wanted. Look at Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton. They wanted to get elected, they ran on the platform that would get them there, they ran hard, and forced others to get on board; they weren’t creatures of some party committee that put together “what we stand for”. They wanted the power and they took it. This is a feature of our Democracy which applies from the City Council to the Presidency. The levers of power are there and available to the person who is smart enough and amitious enough to grab them. Where is the Democrat with enough ambition, savy, and balls to do that now.
Good post, Jane. We need to get our s**t together well before 06 & 08 elections…..
Ghostman: sorry, I don’t think there are any real details on the GOP smear that the Dems are only about money. It is an emotional smear to shut down thinking. Stuff like Democrats are happy when “welfare queens” spend child support money on luxuries, like a fancy TV. Or that Democrats like African Americans and Hispanics to be oppressed and blame it on GOP so keep their votes captive forever. Or Dems are just in business to protect unions. Some of the union stuff may have been true right after the first oil crisis in late 1970s. But these are smears to fan resentment and emotional reaction -details are not that important, and for that reason are scarce, and when not scarce, self-contradictory and inchoherent.
Unti we begin to talk about the elephant in the room, race we will remain a feckless political force.
The one “value” all reliable Red staters have in common is some degree of hostility to non-white American culture.
The “culture war” is in truth a complex set of encoded race-based grievances, real or imagined.
We lose in Red states because the Reeps figured out that the “southern strategy” also works like a charm in any rural American context.
It also doesn’t help when Dem candidates have longwinded mailers that don’t clearly say where they stand. If I have to read fifty pages, even if they’re 3-by-5 inches, I’m going to ignore the stuff first. I e-mailed the guy that did that, and let him know it was way too wordy. Closing line: ‘In 25 words or less: Why should I vote for you?’
Haven’t heard back yet. Don’t expect to. This one claims (on web site) to be a businessman and an instructor at the local state university. (I don’t think he used the word educator. If he did, that’s another strike against him.)
ender @104~
The story is true. If you go to http://tinyurl.com/nhs3r
you will get more information. Rep. Karen Yarborough is one of the 3 sponsors.
I hope this isn’t a duplicate response. My computer is so slow, that I had to open a new browser in order to get this message to you and it has taken me a long time to complete this task.
we will all know we’ve been had if hrc ends up being the dems nominee at the top of the ticket/08.no sane person wants her no matter what their party affiliation or non-affiliation is.
i live in upstate ny and hillary and chuck are oblivious to the steady declines culturally,economically and in population we are enduring here.at one point,when hillary was apparently embaressed by the loud wailing and teeth-gnashing coming from central ny,she actually publicly lashed out,but in a coward’s style attacked the people instead of risking offense to republicans.the one person most responsible for the continuing agony in central ny is sherwood boelert,and hillary in a public rebuke,blamed the situation on “a lack of leadership in the community.”she did not name boelert,and made it sound like she wasn’t talking about him.i can’t tell you how much these remarks stung,and though i formerly
voted for and defended hillary,i now think of her as a carpetbagger and one hell of a hardhearted bitch
THANK GOD WE HAVE GOT AL GORE WHO CAN AND WILL WIN FOR ALL THE PEOPLE!
eat a peach for peace,trash
with a few notable exceptions,democrats are merely more polite republicans.they are simply the more liberal wing of the capitalist
party,and they get their lifeblood(Money)from the same source-corporate pacs and wealthy individuals.They are disconnected from the vast majority of their constituancy because lobby/corporate/large
private wealth talks and your concerns/needs walk.Right now,the congress is selling the internet,and democrats aren’t saying boo.
until public election funding is a reality,political television ads are banned,and campaign length is truncated,it’ll just be more o’ the same.Democrats are merely biding their time without rocking the boat too much so they can have their turn at the public trough.
how about Bill Moyers for President?he’s certainly got that part at least, figured out,and that’s square one.
Honestly, what they need to do is stick thier necks out on some progressive issues (health care, corporate welfare THE WAR, etc) and shout LOUDLY AND PROUDLY!!!!!
but i dont see that happening….somebody might get pissed off, ya know.(corporate masters, karl…etc.)
I Feel the same Jane. Look what happened to Russ Feingold on the censure motion.It’s like the Dems couldn’t get out of the room fast enough!
It’s like watching a team sitting on a 7 point lead in the first quarter thinking the games in the bag!
Jane is spot on.It seems we have no strong leadership. Here in Colorado our Senator Ken
“Republican Lite” Salazar supported Gonzales for AG & the credit industries Bankruptcy legislation. I am sick & tired of pay to play government at the expense of the middle class.