Fitzopotamia

Fitz

Talking about what we stand for, how about we stand for the “good old days” of 1996-99.

Amazing how bad things have gotten so fast.

The convervative plan was/is a joke.

I hope he runs and kicks Hillary’s ass.

Gore!

Freakin wow

Speaks like leader and now he wont run. Sigh

Today’s Al Gore would be a great president.

He was a crappy candidate in 2000 and payed the price. I think the whole Florida/Supremes fiasco changed him forever. I don’t think he’ll ever go back to being the old Gore. He was reborn. If he says he’s not running, I believe him.

Hillary will not get the nomination in 08, regardless of how obsessed Chris Matthews is with her.

No Dem who voted Yes on the Iraq war will get the nomination.

I saw Gore’s film in a private screening and met Gore after. I was blown away. I don’t know what happened in those terrible debates in 2000 but if he can present himself as he does now, at least in small audiences and in the film, he will be a REAL contended in 08.

He blows away Kerry who seems so insincere by comparison. Gore comes across as authentic, intellectual and completely in command of major geopolitical issues.

GO GORE!!!

OT
Here’s a name we’ll all learn to know this week:
Tyler Drumheller

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..7749.shtml

“It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an intelligence failure. It’s an intelligence failure. This was a policy failure,” Drumheller tells Bradley

Aye, Southpaw, there’s the rub. Can Gore get over being cautious, run a completely authentic campaign and let the chips fall where they may? Be still my heart if he can and will.

I hope he runs and kicks Hillary’s ass.

Me too, three, four, five, six & fuck yeah!

Hillary you utterly tired creature, you are a blond tom delay, begone.

This country is going to need an FDR to the nth power to save it after Cheney rape. Al, you’re it.

Bob Schieffer hit one out of the park this morning:
“Why does America need sceret prisons?”

Gyro Gear,

Twenty years ago a sixty minutes program like that would have insured impeachment hearings.
Maybe Gore should be a write in candidate. Can Diebold handle that ?

Peter S – He spoke two weeks ago to a conference I attended (Ceres.org) and blew the audience away – and the audience was quite a mix – from corporate CEOs to major institutional investors to environmental activists. If there was a dry eye or uncharged spirit in the audience at the end of the presentation, I sure didn’t see it. He was quite explicit about not running and he has just really gotten traction for the Generation Fund ( http://www.socialfunds.com/new…..e1568.html ) which would be hard to leave for a run. You don’t get the kind of press they’ve just nailed down (WSJ, FT, Economist I think) without going after it and that points to Gore’s recent plans focusing on this enterprise rather than politics. That said, I’d love to see him run … if he can do that without feeling the need to fade back into the ‘00 candidate.

OT (for the plameologists)-

Just saw the 60 Minutes bit. Was it sloppiness or “new” news that the NIC summary report on Niger was delivered to the WH in early January?

Bradley referenced the WaPoo in the same sentence, presumably to accredit the WaPoo, but I don’t think IIRC that article gave any indication wrt when in January the report was given to the WH.

more recent coverage of the Generation Fund:
http://www.generationim.com/news/

I wonder if the reason he seems more free to speak now is BECAUSE he is not running….

Before getting carried away with Al Gore’s potential candidacy,keep in mind what the polls say and how those polls got there. Bob Somerby (The Daily Howler) is an absolute must read with respect to the War on Gore conducted not by the right wing/talk radio propagandists,but by the NYT and WaPo and network TV’s talking heads.

EPU reaction to Josh Marshall and Tyler Drumheller significance:

Marshall seems to come to conclusion that the Sen ‘reports’ are coverups because they didn’t include this guy’s info.

I ALREADY KNEW THAT W/O READING A WORD OF ANY OF IT!!

Fuck. Now ya can ‘prove’ it.

Sorry, but on this shit I am just cynical. As in, how much closer does this BOMBSHELL bring to regime change?

We already KNOW everything; the carnage continues. Pardon my lack of enthusiasm that THIS NEW REVALATION CHANGES EVERYHTING and they’ll have to admit it all now and the nation and Constitution is saved. Please.

Count me as from Missouri for now. I’ll believe it when the regime changes.
——
Getting cranky…lost sleep last night coming back to bite.

I voted for Gore back in ‘88 MA primary. Who was Dem nominee that year again? Also in Y2K. Looks good for ‘08…he’s just being coy, and keeping out of the bad spotlight while staying in the good spotlight. Smart.

Gore/Feingold 08

Had the opportunity to speak with someone I know who managed the Gore campaign locally, who also knows Roy Neel. His take was that everything was speculation and rumor, that he’d heard nothing to convince him Gore was running, that Gore knew Neel very well and it would be no surprise for Gore to hire Neel. Considering the source, I think we have a bit of road to travel yet before we can start campaigning for Gore. Pains me to say that since there are only three people I could see myself voting for in ‘08, Dean and Feingold being the other two.

But recruiting? Hell yeah, recruit supporters and work on drafting Gore. Perhaps the real test for Gore is whether the movie does well. You know what to do about that.

pleasepleaseplease — i pray to god he will run. i think gore could rally and energize the democratic party like no other. the issues that he was mocked and marginalized for will this time around catapult him to the front when he makes the decision.

Sorry, a bit off topic but a must read none the less:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne…..-headlines

Send it around!

tryggth, IIRC from emptywheel posts and threads, the NIE that Bush declassified may actually have been a kind of a rushed, PR version, of the real NIE.

Why do conservatives oppose gay marriage? Is it just a biblical thing…they say the bible rules against gay marriage? Is that it?
Personally, my only hold-up on gay marriage is the financial angle. If all the gay people get married, then everyone is entitled to pension, widow survivor, social security death benefits, etc. Will this make ANY financial waves? I honestly don’t know, but I’d rather see discussion before I ever give my own allegiance to gay “marriage”. [now, I don’t give a hoot about gay folks getting together, sleeping together, and all that stuff. It’s their personal business, and not mine]
Also, on gay marriage…I still wonder about gay people adopting kids. Oh, I know it’s happening. But, here again, I’ve never read anything about what, if any, bad results can come to a child by being raised by gay folks. Maybe nothing! But I’d rather learn this first, before they adopt.
Ghostman

my sanity needs to imitate mfi, so imagine what follows:

TJM 19 – for my money Somerby lives in pre-bushworld.

Polls, schmolls. This entire country is going to be in utter agony by next year, let alone 08. Rove crap is going to be a joke, as will the msm. REAL is going to be VERY IN.

Maybe, following Election 2006, a Draft Gore movement should be started. I would love to see Feingold run and win, but let’s see, I supported George McGovern in 1972, Fred Harris in 1976, Ted Kennedy in 1980, Walter Mondale in 1984, Jesse Jackson in 1988…Howard Dean, then John Kerry, in 2004, and look where all that got me. I did support Al Gore in 2000, and he won the election. I believe in 2008 he could win it by a bigger margin, enough to prevent his victory from being stolen, provided Democrats make election security an issue. Feingold is great, but I think it would be a big uphill climb.

pssst Ghostman: “they” have been adopting for years now with no deleterious results. This has also been confirmed by numerous peer-reviewed studies too.
Financial effects: if legalized, the total marriage rate might go up maybe 2%. It ain’t all that common, really.

Hi, kiddoes. I like Feingold/Gore 08, and think it is more likely than Gore/Feingold since Gore has already and loudly said he won’t run again.

I understand the wish to see such a charismatic guy in the race, but am not convinced that it is a fruitful use of progressive time to work on drafting Gore for Pres. I read most of the “Dems are sitting on their hands’ post and comments, and wondered where the Russ supporters were. He has been very consistent and outspoken even when he pretty much knew he’s either be the odd man out (War) or fail (censure). I like that in a guy when he’s right.

Very sleepy am typing and reading while I doze. I hope this makes sense.

So glad you’re all here. I always deeply appreciate your company on Sunday eves after long hours of zennursing.

god bless al gore, I said we needed a hero, al gore fits that bill

gore feingold

gore teh fitster

gore conyers

Ah Ghostman

you were doing so well here and then this -

“[now, I don’t give a hoot about gay folks getting together, sleeping together, and all that stuff. It’s their personal business, and not mine]”

darling can you understand how “seperate but equal” that shit sounds ?

#30, well, ok. I just haven’t ever heard/read anything about these studies. But there’s lots of studies I know nothing of!
Ghostman

sharkbabe — i fear you may be correct.

ghostman — the theory is if it’s ok to be gay and married, then it’s ok to be gay, then little johnnie will grow up to be gay. And that’s a no no in the Bible, just like having sex with your wife when she’s menstruating. (see Leviticus)

#33, well no, I don’t see it as a seperate but equal thing. That was about putting black kids in seperate but underfunded classrooms…and about shuffling black kids to somewhere else simply because of their skin color. I don’t see the analogy at all. But thanks for the comment!
Ghostman

Al Gore for President 2008

http://draftgore.com/

#35: ooook, now I’m beginning to understand. The conservatives who oppose gay marriage are afraid that, by example, the parents “gayness” will rub off on junior? Do I have that right?
Personally, I don’t buy that. I’ve always thought the gay thing is more some kind of genetic/chromosome thing. But, thank you for letting me see where the conservatives are coming from!
Ghostman

IMO, I think gay people should get married and get benefits just like any other married couple. Why should it be any different? One of the “perks” of marriage is getting all those benefits when your partner bites the dust. If we polled all the kids in foster homes I’ll bet they wouldn’t have any problem being raised by two people that love them enough to adopt them.

reelect al gore.

There is no excuse for not giving all humans the right to a marriage contract if that is what they desire. It’s a basic freedom.

Religious conservatives read several passages in the Bible where gay sexual behavior is mentioned as an offence to God. They then draw the conclusion that it’s up to them to turn God’s law into the law of the state. This, of course, is a fallacy, but it creates a divide that cannot be bridged.

The best argument would be to discuss whether everything in the Bible that is mentioned as an affront to God should be outlawed- and whether biblical punishments should be used. Some- of course- would say “yes”.

Al Gore can win both the nomination and the Presidency IF and only IF he continues speaking truth to power. The moment he turns back into another politician is the moment he loses. He must keep calling out Bush and the Repugs for the criminals, fascists, and liars that they are. He must continue doing this when they Swiftboat him, when Tweety and Pumpkinhead and Rush and the rest of the nattering nabobs of national television get the vapors. In order to win, he’s going to have to run against the Republicans AND the media.

OT, but not really (big picture):

Posted by: Peter Daou — 4/21/200

If Past Is Prologue, George Bush Is Becoming An Increasingly Dangerous President – DU’s Newsjock posts John Dean’s latest: “George W. Bush’s presidency is a disaster – one that’s still unfolding. In a mid-2004 column, I argued that, at that point, Bush had already demonstrated that he possessed the least attractive and most troubling traits among those that political scientist James Dave Barber has cataloged in his study of Presidents’ personality types. Now, in early 2006, Bush has continued to sink lower in his public approval ratings, as the result of a series of events that have sapped the public of confidence in its President, and for which he is directly responsible. This Administration goes through scandals like a compulsive eater does candy bars; the wrapper is barely off one before we’ve moved on to another.”

If not Gore, who? Who has the potential to be FDR to the nth power, as sharkbabe suggests? OBL has a new audiotape today, authenticated in, what, 5 seconds? 60 minutes runs further confirmation of the “failed policy” argument for Iraq war, and this for tomorrow’s WaPo: “Bush’s Thousand Days.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01014.html

“This is precisely how George W. Bush sees his presidential prerogative: Be silent; I see it, if you don’t . However, both Presidents Harry S. Truman and Dwight D. Eisenhower, veterans of the First World War, explicitly ruled out preventive war against Joseph Stalin’s attempt to dominate Europe. And in the Cuban missile crisis of October 1962, President Kennedy, himself a hero of the Second World War, rejected the recommendations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for a preventive strike against the Soviet Union in Cuba.” A. Schlesinger Jr. is quoting Lincoln’s warning against preventive war in the “Be silent. . . “

“Observers describe Bush as “messianic” in his conviction that he is fulfilling the divine purpose. But, as Lincoln observed in his second inaugural address, “The Almighty has His own purposes.”

“There stretch ahead for Bush a thousand days of his own. He might use them to start the third Bush war: the Afghan war (justified), the Iraq war (based on fantasy, deception and self-deception), the Iran war (also fantasy, deception and self-deception). There is no more dangerous thing for a democracy than a foreign policy based on presidential preventive war.”

#41…..see, if their opposition to all this is biblical-related, then I agree, they are trying to impose their own religious values as a law upon all of society. I disagree with doing such.
Ghostman

hi zenn

gore/feingold, feingold/gore, don’t matter – we just need russ’s cute puss & proven balls – the cheney admin has destroyed this country – things are gonna turn on a dime, mark my words

Ghostman, whether you know it or not, you have been surrounded by gay citizens all your life. They have been delivering your mail, helping you with banking, policing your city, caoching baseball games in your neighborhood, talking to you from the TV and running local businesses as you’ve gone about your straight life unknowingly. They have been adopting children, building strong relationships, creating families of loved ones and being good neighbors. They mow thier lawns and empty their trash and go to the market and pay thier taxes just as you do. There is nothing different about them except in who they love and unfortunately, how they can express that. We straight people have marriage to bind us in civil partnerships and take for granted the rights that civil contract provides such as inheritance from our spouse, parentage of our children, shared property, automatic admission to the hospital room of our spouse. Can you imagine how it feels when the person you’ve loved for 25 years is ill and you are refused permission to see them because you are not “family or next of kin”? Or being told you must leave the house you’ve shared with them for those 25 years because a judge decides that the biological family has more right to it than you when they die? I have seen these things occur and it is heartbreaking.
Clearly you have not had the good fortune to experience friendship with a gay person or couple, because if you had your questions would never occur to you. It’s also clear that you are unaware that many of your new friends at FDL are gay and parents and proud, but I thought you should know it as you proceed with your issue raising here.

Al Gore was not a “crappy candidate” in 2000. Anyone who says that is hereby sentenced to spend a week reading the archives of the Daily Howler or a full afternoon suffering the bullshit of Maureen Dowd, whichever they don’t prefer.

I have no idea who I will support in 08. It’s eons away. Probably the dem who seems to have the best chance to win. Last time I wanted Dean but voted for Edwards- thinking that he was the most electable. He may have been- we’ll never know.

Sitting senators are notorious losers. Hillary has that problem- so do most of the gooper candidates.

I’ll go out on a limb here and say that it will be Romney and a dem governor in the race- Warner perhaps.

Just read the Rolling Stone piece. This gave me great comfort …

“Fellow citizens, we cannot escape history,” said Abraham Lincoln. “We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trial through which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation.”

The media may ignore, the citizens may sleep, but history will rememeber.

Gore wasn’t a great candidate in my opinion. He lost the press early on who were mesmerized by GW Clusterfuck’s “golly gee whiz” act. He then had trouble in the debates- not in winning them intellectually- he did that handily- but in his “style”. He was inconsistent- sometimes attacking- sometimes holding back. It didn’t work.

#47: whew! I hope you feel better now! Look, I’m asking what, for me, are legitimate questions. Bear in mind, I am NOT condemning….you won’t find that anywhere in my comments on this thread!
But I think questions are fair to ask. I have some reservations on this issue, as I’ve expressed. I’m also trying to be as diplomatic as possible, because I know it can be a fiery issue for some. Thank you for listening.
Ghostman

nobody at 48:

did you watch those televised debates?

It may be that Gore’s destiny is to be the Paul Revere of global warming and do more good in that role than being president, where he will be under too many conflicting pressures to really effect a change. What we need is a Democratic president who listens to Al Gore.

Zen – that was one of your zen-nurse best – both kind and uncompromising.

I’m thinking of a conversation I had with my brother around the time that I realized that heterosexuality was seriously over-rated, and decided not to keep the news to myself.

He didn’t take it all that well – and gave me the spiel from the old testament – I reminded him that the same texts said that homosexuals should be stoned at the city gates, and he said that maybe that wasn’t such a bad idea.

He’s smartened up a great deal since then, but it is amazing how the close the indocrination is to the surface.

Though I have days when I think the theological points are just a rationalization from a pretty deep-seated homophobia that has nothing to do with religion whatever.

“Whenever we read … the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind. And, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.” — Thomas Paine

I got gay married in 96. We broke up but still lurve each other totally. Maybe for me the whole point was to write my Limba-lovin dad and say, look. we’ve known what’s what with me forever. i need you to show up here. and boy did he. amazing event i’ll never regret.

miss you dad.

thanks, jlr, I appreciate that.

And Ghostman, I am not condemning, just offering a perspective you may not have seen.

Oh, Sharks, that’s great!

On Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at a hearing on the proposed Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage, Jamie Raskin, professor of law at AU, was requested to testify.

At the end of his testimony, Republican Senator Nancy Jacobs said: “Mr. Raskin, my Bible says marriage is only between a man and a woman. What do you have to say about that?”

Raskin replied: “Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.”

The room erupted into applause.

Blank Kludge #20? That omniscience thing?

BTW – That whole leadership question. Gore is a leader. Would opine more, but I am traveling till Wednesday. But shorter me – You don’t always have to stand for something to win, sometimes it is just good not to be the “other guys.” It might make all of us feel better if Dem’s did stand for something at the moment(and not DINO’s aping repug stands), but I just want to win. It was Tweety who came up with (or at least he repeated it on TV) the “Repugs might be bad, but the Dems are nuts” strategy. Since when does anyone give anything that comes out of Tweety’s beak credence. As bad as it is now for repugs, it will get worse.

Also wanted to thank Pam and Taylor for thier help posting while Christy is getting her picture taken with Goofy. I hope she posts a pic of Fiona having fun at Disney. I bet they’re having a blast. When is she back, anyone know?

Both the GOP and Dems will field:

Governors
neutral on or supportive of the wars (yes, wars)
strong supporters of Israel
wan toward campaign finance reform
wishy-washy or hostile on gay rights
pooh-poohers of the concept of black box voting machine fraud

UNLESS WE GET OUR ACT TOGETHER

damn, i made myself cry!

I like Gore ok, but
a) the GOP has a playbook for him already. And I think the American public has (fairly or not) a perception of him. And it’s not especially flattering.
b) Explain to me how a re-vamped Gore beats a Romney-Jeb ticket. Or Romney-Martinez. Romney can do the patented fresh-face outsider governor thing. People are going to be looking for fresh faces and Gore ain’t it. Neither is Hillary. Fresh-faced outsider governor usually beat tired old VP. With the exception of Bush 1.0, VPs usually don’t do all that well. Gore on the ticket would dredge up all the same Clinton baggage as Hillary, plus he’s cloaked in the stench of loserdom in many people’s eyes. I understand a lot of people like him, but I’m not sure it would work.

It’s okay, Sharkbabe, it’s good to cry for them once in awhile. Those are good tears, honey, they are full of love; you just let them flow.

Ghostman- Zenn’s post really says it all. And, I agree with the biological/ genetic angle. As for a financial downside? Frankly, I don’t care. Surely Bush didn’t consider this before striking Iraq- not the downside for the US, at least, though certain corps are getting rich. Finanancial downside? This has never been one of my considerations as to how people should be treated. That really is a corporate perspective. It is not a humane perspective. There is nothing to be gained for the greater good of all or for one’s own soul by denying individuals basic human love and a sense of dignity and appreciation. Same thing goes no matter what sex, age, gender orientation, “race” (not a biologically valid concept), etc. etc. is involved.

Now, let me review: the conservatives oppose this because a) the bible tells them to, and b) gay parents turn kiddos into gay folks….right?
Gay folks want to be able to marry for reasons of a) a feeling of equality…an emotional need of theirs, and b) for various and sundry property rights issues/problems…right?
See, I said waaaay above that the property rights…read that COSTS is a question I have. Someone said this would only affect 2% of the population? I sure would like to read studies and so forth.
OH! The good fella who lectured me on the “seperate but equal” matter. Ummm…it would actually be an Equal Protection argument. But what do I know. chuckle.
Ghostman

So ghostman, equality and justice for all is ok as long as it doesn’t cost anyone anything? Are there any other minorities to which the principle of “equal only if personally convenient” applies?

Ghostman-
Well, the bible says a lot of things. Don’t eat shellfish. Make the menstruating women leave the tent. Lots of stuff. Funny how people latch onto the “no gays” part but feel ok ignoring the “no bacon” part.

Does anyone remember those classes in high school where kids had to become parents by taking care of a doll like it was a baby for a week, carry it around, stay home because they couldn’t find a babysitter, etc, in an effort to decrease teenage pregnancy? I think kids should have to do that only they’d have to be gay for a week. Or someone in the military or the evangelical church should have to do it. I think that would be a great thing to study in terms of challenging norms and demonstrating prejudices.

Sharkbabe – hugs- great courage

Zenn- great great comment

Cleter – Actually, Gore beat the repugs, and that was before they proved their incompetence, kleptomania, etc., and after the demonization of Clinton; 2008 is neither 2000 nor 2004. Can the Dems fuck it up, yeah, but you make it sound like a 100 to 1 shot. It’s not.

EPU is right, cleter. And the concept that being tied to Bill Clinton will be a handicap is, to paraphrase Abu G, quaint.

He sure did beat him. I have the first issue of the Sun-Sentinel the morning after the election that reads “Bush Wins”. Of course, a half hour later they pulled the issues right off the street. I had it framed a couple of days later and hung it in my restaurant. I took it down after Bush claimed the presidency, a la Harris.

ghostman,
IMO gay/lesbian works better than gay.
“Gay folks want to be able to marry for reasons of a) a feeling of equality…an emotional need of theirs, and b) for various and sundry property rights issues/problems…right?”
All kinds of people like to get married for all kinds of reasons.
IMO you will find on this board a lot of gays and lesbians who are “out” about their orientation. That’s unusual in my experience and it takes a lot of guts, because a lot of other gays and lesbians are hiding it and they sometimes like to “bash” people who are “out” so people won’t suspect that they are gay or lesbian. A lot of heterosexuals aren’t any better and can be worse.
I appreciate your candor, but you might want to consider that you are talking very glibly about an issue that is imo very sensitive.
If I have offended anyone, I apologize.

thanks zenn, you the coolest

Edward 63 and cleter 65 – none of this will matter. none of it. we are entering a post-rove, post-aipac, post-msm world. not only are we entering it, we are creating it.

#69: actually, your point is the most persuasive I’ve read so far. I’ll muse on that on.
#70: yes, and I’ve already said the “bible tells me so” argument is not persuasive to me.
Interesting stuff.
Ghostman

lurve ya too VG

Ghostman – If I may, what if some corporation decided that it was too costly to pay spousal benefits to those of their workers with green eyes? What I’m getting at is, is it fair to treat gays any differently than any other segment of the population?

So far, for 2008, I like Feingold, Warner, Gore and Clark. Obama, too, but I think it is a bit too soon.

Actually, EPU, part of me thinks 2008 is one of those elections where any semi-competent Demo can get elected–like 76 or 32. FDR was a genius, true, but it didn’t take a genius to get elected in 32. The GOP had done such a magnificent job of poisoning the well that the Democrats probably could have nominated the dumbest governor in the land and still won.
But part of me thinks it may be one of those strange complicated ones. And I’m worried about frenzy of Democratic eating of young if we have another election where Al Gore doesn’t quite get inaugerated.

“Gay folks want to be able to marry for reasons of a) a feeling of equality…an emotional need of theirs, and b) for various and sundry property rights issues/problems…right?”

It is not a ‘feeling’ of equality, it is equality under the law, same as you. The emotional need is no different than that of Joe who marries Sally, it’s the same thing. And the “various and sundry rights and issues’ are those that are just assumed for straight people. the issue is that there should be (is) no difference between gay people/families and straight people/families.

See, I said waaaay above that the property rights…read that COSTS is a question I have.

I’m with Sharkbabe on this. Because there should be )is) no difference, making gay marriage nothing but “marriage” will correct a societal wrong and cost is not a concern for me. If freeing the slaves had had a cost, which it must have, then it was still the correct thing to do because it corrected a societal wrong and cost should not be a significant consideration. It is, to me, far more worthy a price than a war. I believe our gay families deserve to be treated as the equal citizens they are.

as I detest everything that is cruel

thanks, ccmask – man I love Tom Paine and that is beautiful – the only philosophy!

newish thread if you’re done with this one…

bumper sticker:

No you can’t have my rights. I’m still using them

Matt O. You will get plenty of backtalk from me on the Obama issue. ;)

gay “folks” is bad….need to say gay/lesbian? Folks is a term of warmth…..oh well. You know, MAYBE the (insert whatever is politically correct label) need to stop belittling me about asking questions, and referring to a group as “folks”…MAYBE those that care about this issue ought to EDUCATE, and not lecture. As to the makeup of FDL…I could care less. NOT because I’m some sort of anti-whatever the correct term is, but because usually there are VERY good MINDS here.
Ghostman

new thread

Regime Change No. 84

Jane Hamsher saw an Al Gore movie and concluded that he is running for President in 2008. I willing to accept that Jane Hamsher is knowledgable about movies, and I take her word that her conclusion about Gore, based on a movie, is a reasonable one. If she said he was running because she read it in some tea leaves, I might feel differently.

Zennurse,
I am for gay marriage and against civil unions.

I agree. I spent a full semester studying same-sex marriage after I wrote a paper in support of legalization.

In my opinion, civil unions are unconstitutional. Civil unions are predicated on the same belief system that instituted separate white and “colored” drinking fountains. I fail to recognize how heterosexual marriage and homosexual civil unions is any different.

If the 2008 presidential election turns into a referendum on gay marriage then we all lose. The Republicans would love nothing more than to be able to use that as a wedge issue to divide the country and take the focus off the failures of George W. Bush and the corruption of the Republican party.

I would love to see gay couples be able to marry but I also know that a substantial portion of the population is NEVER going to support gay marriage under any circumstances. The more the Dems make it an issue, the more it helps the GOP. You may not like hearing that, but it is the truth.

Gore lost when he picked the moral wag, Joltin’ Jomementum Lieberman to innoculate himself against the Bill Clinton evil penis charge….Old Joe took to the Senate floor to flap his jowls in a stern way to let all of America know that Billy was bad and couldn’t keep his weenie under wraps. That made Gore move to him to keep the “family values” crowd happy. The hokey-Falwellian-family values crowd that he would NEVER win in a million years.

Jomentum was about as dynamic and captivating Miracle Whip and Wonder Bread sandwich. He was an anchor on the ticket from day one.

If Gore had picked Bob Graham–Florida would have been much more in play and old Jeb and his painted harpie, Katherine Harris would have had a tougher time pulling their hijinx.

Joementum has been piss in the gastank of the Democratic Party ever since.

-GSD

V.G. -

Obama’s stock was way high for me, but lately he’s been doing some head-scratcher moves, including siding with Lieberman, if I remember correctly.

Clark is a class act. I really like him a lot. Plus, it would a breath of fresh air to have an honorable former person in the service leading our country, after the Chickenhawk Cabal.

I heard Warner on the Majority Report, and previously I did not know much on him but he impressed me. Enough to dig deeper and read about the awesome things he did in Virginia.

I can’t wait to see this movie!!! Go to the website http://www.climatecrisis.net/ and sign the pledge to see the movie on opening weekend. Plus, check out the current issue of Vanity Fair. They’re calling it their first ever “green issue” and Al Gore has a superb article in it. He explains that global warming can be and must be our new “generational challenge”. Confronting this dire crisis head on will reinvigorate this country; giving every American a sense of purpose and hope. Don’t understand what I’m talking about, then go buy the mag! You won’t be disappointed.

Matt O.- see you on the new thread. And, you have email!

GSD-
I, too, was mystified that Gore didn’t pick Graham.

I think it might be a Gore/Feingold ticket, they seem to be getting their ducks in one row so to speak. Fitz for AG. Find something for Edwards, too.

My cousin was a Navy Chief Navagational Petty Officer on two different aircraft carriers — he is also gay. He’s a big supporter of HRC, and all things GLBT. As a Real Estate Broker, he saw the behind the back disdain some of his fellow brokers had for their gay clients.

As a result, he started GayRealEstate.com, a referral site that matches up gay and lesbian homebuyers and sellers with gay friendly agents. An affiliated site is GayMortgage.com; he just launched Gaysurance.com, a gay freindly insurance referral site.

Also isn’t the Florida Graham brother of Don Graham (deceased)? Maybe it would have led to better coverage in the WaPo, but then again maybe not.

In 2000 I think the press was sick of the Clinton mess, thought Gore was too much of an intellectual. Besides how hard could it be to be president? The country and the economy were in high gear, the Soviet Union was kaput, and W gave them such cute nicknames and never seemed uptight. Besides he said he would restore honor and his dad’s friends could help him out if the going got tough.

I think the press were willing accomplices to the swift-boating (an anachronism, I know) of Al Gore. Maybe if he runs in 2008, the MSM will realize we need an adult to be president. But I guess I don’t have that much faith in the MSM, after all.

ck – cheers for your cousin. He’s meeting a real need.

Gore’s my guy right now, but he has to keep doing what he’s been doing the last 5 years.

zennurse–Good idea. I’d like to see something inventive done along those lines, but how do we do it without some parents getting up in arms? That exercise would not go over well in this town, I know. Very much the buckle of the Bible Belt in this state.

ck
I have to laugh about what your cousin did.

The big companies must be absolutely kicking themselves for not doing it themselves earlier. There is a big money in the gay demographic.

Good on your cousin.

In the past couple of years, everyone is scrambling to get on the bandwagon. Each year, when we have the Pride Parade, all the big corporations appear in the newspaper insert for it.

Ghostman,

You are a bigot and a troll. Why don’t you worry about heteros marrying to get their mitts on pensions and social security benefits?
The fact is gay men, where they are allowed to marry, do so less frequently than lesbians and hets, because they know their relationships are not as likely to last. You don’t get hold of pensions and the like without giving something up. Not to mention risking 50% of everything you own plus alimony. To put a spouse on your pension, you have to pay a lot more in yourself, or take a reduced benefit and hope that you didn’t waste tht money and see the spouse precede you in death. And gay men are more financially self sufficient than women, and so are not as likely to be depending on a husband’s pensions. Duh.

The reasons for marriage are to immigrate to be with your loved one. To be allowed to visit them in the hospital, which normally gay couples cannot do. To start a family (try google on gay adoptions, you old dinosaur). To prevent your loved one’s predatory het family from getting their mitts on your joint property when he or she dies (a common occurence). The list of rights and benefits heteros enjoy goes into the hundreds, and most of them would be no skin of your flinty ass.

Since gay marriage is much less frequent even when allowed, I trust you will now take your concerns about spousal pensions and benefits and the injustice and burden they represent to single people everywhere, and work to take them away from the hets as well as homos.

EPU’d to be sure but I guess I need my say.

I am a gay parent. Our girls are in 5th and 7th, school leaders, straight A students. You would be shocked how little the gay thing comes up. Kids have there own world, and I don’t mind control them. They assimilate to the dominant culture as they wish. But at the end of the day, I want them to know me, everything that makes me who I am. My partner is an amazing parent and provider, and I stay at home (right now, at least). I never thought I would be living such a “traditional” life.

But commitment is so much harder without societies sanction, without the normal rituals in front of family and friends. Gay people grow up in families–let us build our own. Marriage does not create gay families, it merely legitimizes them.

Civil unions do not have to be unconstitutional or unequal. In Europe some countries (like france) don’t legally recognize “marriage”, but only civil unions. You can go get a marriage from a priest, but it isn’t binding as far as the law is concerned. To get any legal benfits, you must get a civil union from the government.

Civil Unions for both same sex and hetero couples seems sensible to me. If conservative churches want to continue to discriminate, so be it. But the law should recognize only civil unions, and not some term (marriage) which many associate with religion. (It is a sacrament for Catholics, etc.)

Of course more liberal churches would be free to marry whoever they choose, just as conservative ones could not.

Ahh, the beauty of a state seperate from the church. It is too bad that after a 150 year head start on those ideas, we now lag behind the very same oppresive religious countries the founding fathers were trying so hard not to replicate.

Gore/Feingold 08:

God that would be great. Even though I said I never would, I might finally forgive him for that PMRC crap.

Hillary can rot in Bush’s hell. Now there’s a spineless traitor.

Looks like Gore has discovered Thomas Jefferson. If there is anything the federalist theocratic movement has imposed, it is tyranny over the mind.

They should pray there is no god.

I remember reading Earth in the Balance and being quite taken by the honesty and power in the writing. It was a little klunky at times, but that was quite something to me that a major pol would put himself out like that. It is not available on line, but the current essay in Vanity Fair, which seems to be of a piece with the movie and upcoming book, is marvelous. It is eloquent and mature, and it has Churchillian grandeur. Genuinely so. I hope you are right that he is running. He would be my choice far and away, the only dem who has been speaking courageously and with fire on many of these big issues. He’d have my vote with more gusto than in 2000, when I happily voted for him.

This is so simple it’s hard — anytime anyone asks a Dem what they think of gay marriage, they simply need to say they accept that all Americans have the same rights, and that includes the right to determine who they can marry.

They can add that if some Americans think that isn’t a right, then they need to make the case why the government should determine who we marry and who we can’t.

I’d love to see a sputtering rightwinger explaining why Americans have unequal rights, or why choosing who you marry isn’t a right, or that the government decides who you marry, etc.

C’mon Dem leadership, get it together.

Gore needs to backpedal on NAFTA, the biggest mistake of his career.

Re Hillary: It isn’t that she signed on to Iraq that has torn up her future possibilities, it’s the fact that she’s pressing so hard for war with IRAN! The first you might be able to write off as political practicalism but the latter has no excuse. I can only assume that she’s pandering to the Jewish lobby (yeah, there is one) rather than looking at the big picture. Big mistake. Before all of this bullshit happened, I would’ve voted for her in an eyeblink…and now? Frankly, I don’t think she’ll ever be able to rehabilitate herself enough to be a supportable candidate. Geez, is Bartcop still closing his eyes to all of this shit in order to keep backing her?

sHillary gets blasted regularly over at my pad. No flipping way in ‘08:

sHillary Blend Hall of Shame posts…* sHillary running from her Wal-Mart ties* On Hackett, Hillary, & So-Called Moderates – COWABUNGA!* NY gay rights group blasts sHillary* The sHillary backlash continues* Fallout from leaked Empire State Pride Agenda memo* Another reality check for sHillary* Rove in ‘Strategery’: sHillary will lose* Bag Hillary; this is ridiculous* We had to destroy this party in order to save it* What is wrong with Americans?* Hillary continues image building with more wingnut bootlicking* Molly Ivins has had enough of the D.C. Dems too

Gore all the way!
He demonstrated he can win.
He’s back from the desert.
He was against the Iraq invasion.
He owns the enviornment issue.
He has a passion for Constitutional freedoms.
I could go on…
I almost forgot, He invented the Internet. :)

TA-DAH!!!!

He certainly isn’ tiptoeing. Maybe, just maybe i can get excited about ‘08

ZenNurse is askin’ where are the Feigold supporters? Right here!! (waving furiously!)

I love Al Gore, a leader all the way. And if he can stay authentic, he’s got a fighting chance. But I’d prefer a fresh face.

Conventional wisdom is out the window in this political climate. I want the [i]right[/i] person – not who will be “electable” as deemed by the consultants. For me, it’s the dark horse named Russ Feingold. When you see him grilled by the easily RW-spun media, he’s a sight to behold.

Gore/Feingold would be sweet. But I’d prefer Feingold/Clark.

I agree OrangeJumpsuit – Gore is the Paul Revere for global warming and would be so good in the right position.

I would love to see gay couples be able to marry but I also know that a substantial portion of the population is NEVER going to support gay marriage under any circumstances.
You can’t be talking about the highly populated Northeast. I have two daddies or two mommies children’s books are more and more popular I think. Al Gore is going in the right direction if he is supporting same-sex marriage. The public and I also predict that other state legislatures have been leaning in that direction for awhile. Its damn oppressive for politicians to think they can stem the tide of public opinion. The church? I mean what gives some denomninations the right to think they have a “higher moral ground” than say the Episcopalians on this matter.

Obama’s stock was way high for me, but lately he’s been doing some head-scratcher moves, including siding with Lieberman, if I remember correctly.
Yeah! As a person from CT, I am not going to forget too easily that Obama basically chastised the booers, no matter how indirectly , with one of his statements at that bag some bucks dinner.

Gore just may be the Howard Dean of 2008

Not in the netroots kind of way, but in the “Revolutionary model for the next phase of Democrats, which will be picked up in part by many, in whole by some, lose several elections around the country, and change the party for the better” way. You can certainly tie a lot into the environment. Hell, if we can get free of foreign energy we can pretty much stop all the imperialism. Then we don’t have to worry about terrorists.

And when energy is “free” in the sense that it costs less than itself and can make more of itself (with help from the sun and other forces) there’s virtually no limit to what the economy can produce. I mean it sounds pretty good and I hope a lot of people listen to him. My money’s on Warner/Feingold; great with the netroots, great with rural voters. Warner can run an administration (and turn around a deficit in an unfriendly legislature) like nobody’s business and Feingold is the kind of man I want breaking ties in the Senate or (God forbid) exercising his constitutional duties under the 25th amendment.