Rachel Carson !

http://www.google.com/search?q=earth+day

Jamie,
Excellent post…and those photos are truly frightening.

Again, it is impossible for Bush or anyone in his administration to tell the truth. I used to think that I could never be President. After Bush, however, I see it is impossible for anyone to do a worse job.

At least some of those SUV owners are getting the message: it’s a real jolt to pay $40 to $50 for a tank of gas. Now if it makes them think seriously about going back to smaller vehicles for things that don’t require large load capacity, it will be some improvement. (So much of the time there only seems to be one person in the vehicle: what a waste that is!)

I’m moving to a place that’s within walking distance of the station where I catch the train. I’ll still have to drive some days, due needing to go to other places, but it will cut gas usage considerably for me. (I drive a hybrid: it doesn’t hurt quite as much, but it still hurts.)

local six pm newscast has ‘Rising Gas Prices’ up front.

Cabbies being hit (must tank up at end of shift.)

Then, gas prices don’t appear to be hurting sales of boats. (ummm…They are talking about motorboats, not sailboats, but I figure that market ain’t being hit, either.)

Interesting juxtaposition, that. And confirms Jamie’s thinking.

Jamie, thank you for this. On a related environmental issue—David Remnick has a great piece in the New Yorker on Gore and his upcoming movie about global warming. Remnick, happily, and unlike so many of his fellows, doesn’t pull his punches. Worth a read, IMO.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/…..lk_remnick
–

I think we all need to walk more, cut down on petrochemicals in our diet–so many plastics being used in our food packaging, etc. For the past few months I’ve been eating raw only, and I’ve noticed that I have a lot more energy in the morning (although it does mean more trips to the bathroom).

Still, let’s all get walking. If we truly act locally, we should only work within walking distance of where we live. Anything else is just living in Exxon’s world.

Where’s Russ F. when we need him? He’d fix this fix lickety-split.

Why can’t a man making (I will NOT say EARNING) millions of dollars a year get his fricking NECK and rotten teeth fixed?

Company in LA is retrofitting larger battery packs to Toyota Prius. It enables the owner to “plug in” the car overnight. The battery holds enough juice for forty miles of driving without burning a drop of gas. The cost for the electricity- if you don’t generate it yourself, is equivelant to $1 per gallon..

But why pay for it- you can put a solar array on your rooftop that will generate all of the electricity you need- even sell some back to the power company.

So suppose that every home in the sunbelt was to have a retrofitted prius and a solar array. How much energy would they be using? Not much- the prius does burn some gas- about 10 gallons a month for the average driver- but we would be paying zero for electricity. Even if Gas gets to $5 per gallon- it’s peanuts.

Now why would the energy bandits not like this scenario? You had to ask?

How much does it cost? About thirty grand for the solar array and about thirty grand for the retrofitted Prius.

If the larger battery were fitted at the factory- we’d be close to $25,000 ready to rock and roll.

The auto makers don’t want to offer the plug in option- Toyota thinks it will scare people about hybrids. The solar array is too expensive for a good return on investment.

Get the solar array down to $10,000 through subsidies- and require the auto makers to offer the plug in option through much higher cafe standards- and we will have licked the energy crisis.

But that’s a lot of money you say? Not nearly as much as the govt. subsidies for nuclear power and natural gas power I’ll wager.

This could get us through the next 30 years or so easily- until something better comes along.

`

current US economic geography is based on cheap gas providing a very spread-out style of living. A poster on a previous thread talked about her son driving 50 miles each way to work: that is so “new” for society – people used to walk to work or ride mass transportation in the cities. Another poster talked about living in the country and heating her home with electricity. It was only in Roosevelt’s time that rural electrification was accomplished – and home electrical heating is so inefficient. To live out in the country, you must have a car.
Expensive driving will so contract down housing choices. Most Americans could not even conceive of not owning a car – I’ve known homeless families that will give up an apartment and live in their car! Lots of wrenching choices ahead … not pretty at all !

Ms. Malkin does like it when her phone and address appear on the net:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.c…..2local.htm

Jamie, I have to disagree — high oil prices are the only way Americans will become more energy efficient. Just like cutting down the last tree was the only way Easter Islanders would stop wanton tree cutting.

Now, if the pain at the pump can be translated into legislative incentives for greater energy efficiency, that will be a good thing; but with the GOP in power, that ain’t gonna happen.

Save us, President Gore!!!

The soccer moms I know say they can’t cut back any more than they do. I say it just takes more planning but everyone can cut back a LOT more. Plan out the weeks groceries and grocery shop once a week. Let the kid take the bus to school. That’s what it’s for. Carpool with other moms to practices and lessons. All it takes is planning.

…It’s all about supply and demand.

They have the SUPPLY and they are DEMANDING a lot of money for it.

We have built an america that has the automobile at it’s foundation. It will not be easy to dislodge it from the center of our lives.

So you mean killing the last terrorist will be the way to stop killing terrorists?

Sounds like you might have a plan.

But what about the endangered ferrets?

California Fuel Cell Partnership better watch their back. Seems every time ClusterDick does a photo op involving what’s left of our industry,the company in the picture gets into trouble within a few months because ClusterDick went back to DC the next day and cut funding. Watch out, alternative energy research.

But but but… surely we must acknowledge that energy policy should be devised and conducted by those who know energy best, the companies that supply it to us. And surely the stock prices of these companies are the best proxy for the success of our nation’s energy policy. And surely, greed is the best way to maximize society’s welfare. And surely, it’s traitorous and disloyal for us to presume to say otherwise, and surely those who do should be drowned in Grover Norquist’s bathtub ;-P

FDL is going downhill. When I first read it, most of the articles were witty, incisive, and I learned something from them. Now you have stuff like this, which is about 80% propaganda.

Nice work Jamie, here’s one for your file:
“Healthy Forests In.”= “No Tree Left Behind”

I wrote about this last fall, but since it’s Earth Day, I’m gonna use our little soap box again.
__________HOW WOLVES CONTROL RIVERS________
If you ever saw Yellowstone Park before 1995 you saw something that wasn’t right. Oh, it was beautiful and all with wide parks in the valley floors and huge herds of Elk and Bison grazing in the meadows by the streams. But those streams didn’t have any bushes along their banks, and there were very few aspens in the park. Nobody really noticed it, we were all just use to it.

Then after alot of fussin’ and fightin’ the wolf was re-introduced back into the park. The biologists got out their note books and began to record what happened next. It didn’t take too long before they saw the obvious. Vegatation began to grow along the stream banks. Then it dawned on them that the rest of the Rocky Mountians had aspens, willows and cottonwoods growing along the water courses, but Yellowstone was manacured. How come ?

After nearly ten years they had their answer. and it had huge implications for every ecosystem on earth, and in the seas. The wolf was completely hunted out of Yellowstone by the 1920’s, and the elk began to expand their herds. It’s well known that predators keep their prey healthy by “Thinning the Herd”. So everyone was looking for that effect on the elk, and sure enough elk populations were trimmed. As the wolves began to expand, something else happened. The elk could no longer park themselves by the streams and munch away to their hearts delights. They had to keep moving, they had to keep looking over their shoulders for Mr. Wolf.

That one little change was all the aspens, willows, and the cottonwoods needed to make their come back in the park. And that triggered a whole host of other changes. Water quality in the streams improved, that was good for the fish. Birds began showing up, because they had a place to nest and hunt. And finally that supreme engineer of water, the beaver could make his come back, and the changes could really begin. Beaver have to have willow and aspen to eat. {More on Mr. Beaver at the end.}

So today, when you visit Yellowstone, she is in the middle of a huge remodeling program brought on by Mr. Wolf. Pick any ecosystem on the planet and similar template is there. Kill off all the sharks and the oceans will change in ways we can’t see or predict. Lions, tigers, any apex predator, something like what happened to Yellowstone will occur.

It’s widely believed that the hunting of the bison to the verge of extiction was the great natural tragedy of the 19th century. But something even more profound happened before that, and we have no record of it except in the account books of the Rocky Mountian Fur Co. We have no idea what the west looked like before all those beaver were converted into hats. Think about it, every stream west of the Miss. River had them, and they had a profound effect on the water tables, erosion, floods, and just the shear volume of life that depended on them. It was a greener wetter place than the one we know today.

Clusterfuck always comes back to “hydrogen” as the answer. Why? Cause hydrogen isn’t an energy alternative AT ALL. It takes more energy to free hydrogen from water than you get from burning hydrogen. Hydrogen, then, is actually a way of Storing energy- not a source of energy.

Where does the actual ENERGY come from? Coal! Guess which industry has been cramming gooper gullets with huge campaign donations?

Jane,have’nt read the post yet,but when those photos came up on my screen I almost fell out of my chair.Too f**kin funny!

We have built an America that has the automobile at it’s foundation.

It’s not the automobiles that are the problem; it’s the 3 ton autos that are the problem. I drive a Plymouth Grand Voyager — it weighs 4700 lbs, and gets about 18 mpg. My mother’s Toyota Corolla weighs less than 3000 lbs, and gets 25 to 30 mpg.

It’s all of those fat bastard Hummers and Suburbans and Excursions that are killing us, fleet economy wise.

Save the beaver!

EPU’d myself. From last thread.

Any Utah FDL’rs out there? If any of you would be interested in joining the grass roots project started by Pach,e-mail me at shooogarp@hotmail.com with your e-mail address.

I would like to get a group of folks together to harass and shame Orrin Hatch and Bob Bennett. Chris Cannon and Ron Bishop too.
Delurk! Delurk! Let’s get active! This what FDL is all about ACTION!

Big oil bought up patents of carburetors that would enable sixty to eighty mpg. The country could reduce consumption and emissions fifty percent in eighteen to twenty four months.
Are there any leagal means such as national security to force a patent holder to release (sell) a desperately needed patent ?

The gas and oil companies formulate energy strategy. Why not? They know the most about gas.

The pharmeceutical industry creates prescription policy. Why not? They understand medicine.

The media and the fever swamp blogs do not report the positive news. Example: the average American is too busy and tired to learn all about gasoline and prescription drugs. Corporate America has shouldered the burden by working with our government so that we don’t have to.

After you get home from work,do you really want to read a lot of complicated stuff and calulate numbers all night? Don’t you think it’s more important to spend time with your family instead of acting like some kind of “number cruncher?”

This is the glory of capitalism.

rwcole #22:

Vanity Fair had an article on where our coal comes from — a cogent profile of how Massey Coal has (literally) wiped out 500,000 acres of West Virginia (and made much of the rest of the state uninhabitable in the process), turning the western part of the state into a vast, unremediated strip mine. And those who dare stand up to these friends of Bushco are violently intimidated into silence (shot at, sabotaged, blown up, whatever). More than a little something is rotten here. Unfortunately the article’s not on the web.

But an editorial calling for the criminal investigation of Bushco to begin is:
http://www.vanityfair.com/comm…..0417roco03

Sorry, This is going to be a drive by.

If anyone actually thinks that Clusterfuck,or anyone in his mis-administration has any kind of plan for a REAL energy plan,please contact me.
I have a very large,seldom used bridge to sell you.That ignorant bastard can’t even SPELL hydrogen.Let alone pronounce it.George W. has been sucking the fat cock of Big Oil his entire life.There has been technology available for years that no one in Big Oil wants to see the light of day.Engines are a big air pump. Pour fuel into them and they are self sustaining. The Stochiometric fuel efficiency of a modern engine is 14 parts air, one part fuel.The 1910 Ford model A engine got better fuel mileage than a brand fucking new computer controlled Lincoln Town Car. It’s a fact.

King George can offer all the empty talk he wants too. Remember when DOE had to find an extra $5 million to avoid lay offs at the battery laboratory he was going to visit the next day? That was less than three months ago and crude oil was at $60/barrel.
It’s laughable that after 5 years of neglecting the problem, he thinks he can fix it with switch grass. Middle-America is finally feeling the effects of the games he’s been playing. I hope Thomas Frank is planning a revised edition of What’s the Matter With Kansas.

that story about the oh-so-efficient carburetor is an urban myth and has been floating around since the 1920’s. You’d think by now some country in the world would manufacture such an amazing device, if only to use in their own country … surely a country in the desperate throes of a war and crippled by a shortage of gasoline would retrofit tanks and trucks with this amazing carburetor ?

Remember Carter? He helped raise Cafe standards- US oil consumption dropped drastically. Price of oil went down to the $10 per barrel neighborhood. Oil companies NEVER want to hear about real changes in cafe standards again.

Back in 1981, I wrote my first editorial urging that the Feds adopt an incremental gasoline tax of 5 cents annually for the next 25 years. Even though gasoline prices were comparatively high in ‘81, that small annual increase would not have been too noticeable.

This tax would, I suggested, be coupled with a surcharge on cars that got poor mileage. Except for a little piece reserved to help low-income motorists, I suggested that all the revenue should go to alternate fuels research and development.

As oil (and gasoline) prices plummeted the next year, and, with a brief rise during the Gulf War kept going down, I reiterated my editorial for nine consecutive years, followed in the ’90s with a couple of Op-Eds.

Each time, I caught all kinds of flak for arguing for something that would hurt the middle class, even though I suggested that a piece of the revenue be used to cushion the effects on those who could least afford paying more for a necessity.

If Washington had listened to me – not that it ever has – at the end of 25 years – this year – gasoline would have been $1.25 extra a gallon. But we would, over that quarter-century, have collected some $1.6 Trillion to spend on alternatives research. Think how far toward energy sanity that might have taken us.

Time is shorter now. And gasoline dearer. I recommend a 15-cent annual gasoline tax for the next 10 years. Same deal. Most of the money to research and development, some to ease the pain of low-income motorists.

Combine that with a windfall profits tax on oil companies and I think we’ve got a winner.

But I can count on having my pleas again met by: this will destroy the poor and the middle class.
When will people ever learn?

Too late, I suspect.

sir henry noted:

“FDL is going downhill. When I first read it, most of the articles were witty, incisive, and I learned something from them. Now you have stuff like this, which is about 80% propaganda.”

Which 80% is that? The post, the comments, what in particular? Talk about going downhill (which is far more fuel efficient than going uphill, anyway)…

I’m sure “Arabella” thinks Americans shouldn’t bother their pretty heads with thoughts of war and peace and just leave it to the experts like Bush and Cheney to handle it competently like they have demonstrated so well in Iraq … and Condi knows what’s best for Iran too!

Here’s how I celebrated Earth Day.

I taped some nature photos on my wall and closed the windows and the curtains. I turned all the electricity off. I mediated on a yoga mat.

The fever swamp people are ignorant. You can still observe your quirky beliefs – just do it in the privacy of your home. Keep the curtains shut and you don’t have to worry about dead birds falling out of the sky because you won’t see them. We have pictures of animals and flowers so you can always look at nature even when it’s gone.

(By the way, when you turn off all your electricity, cover each outlet with one of those plastic, childproof plugs. If you let electricity leak in, you defeat the purpose of the exercise.)

Wonderful — and chilling — post. We retired and acquired our (yet-to-be-completely-restored) dream house out in the country but are still trying to figure out how to live completely in harmony w/an increasingly unpredictable Mother Nature.

We’ve always tried so hard to be good environmental stewards but it seems to be getting more difficult rather than less.

And every decision has repercussions — recycling, out here, for example, wastes more resources than it could possibly save since the drop-off points are so far away.

No SUV, but we do have to mow and have not yet found the right critter to do it. (I am seriously considering a donkey if I can just figure out what it REALLY will cost to feed it/house it the six months it cannot graze. But I’ve also heard they don’t like dogs…)

*ilson46201, I just had to stay, didn’t I.

You are absolutely correct in your comment.This is the one subject at FDL that I can actually NOT talk about out of my posterior. I have a degree in automotive tecchnology, and here I have no time today to put it to use. DAMN. Give ‘em hell today.There is no Government program except to enrichen the already rich.

http://www.cars101.com/cafe.html

“Car standards started in 1978
The goal was to double the 1974 passenger car fuel economy average by 1985 to 27.5 mpg in small increments.
1978 18 mpg
1979 19 mpg
1980 20 mpg
1981-84 22, 24, 26, and 27mpg
1985 27.5 mpg
1986-1989, passenger car standards were lowered.
1990 27.5 mpg, where it has remained.”

Oh, fucking hell. It’s that Recruiting Commercial again where the kid tells his mother that he’s found somebody to pay for him to go to college.

Here’s the version we usually see in Westchester:

Scene: Tennis-attired mother and son eating brunch at the club.

Mummy: Anything new happen today.
Son: Yes, I found a way to travel for free.
Mummy: OK, tell me more.
Son: It’s the Army …
Mummy: The Army! Are you out of your mind?

Gyro 21 — Thank you! That is just *amazing*.

rwcole I’m not in the sun belt but I’ve been looking for information specific to my locale for solar panels (I’ve got a big flat empty roof in a neighborhood of rows and rows of houses just sitting there baking in the sun) Anyhow- I can’t find anything near local; big surprise. When I started thinking about why…Oh yeah, the energy bandits…(Senator Allen’s missus is on the board of Dominion Resources)

The political problem for Bush and Cheney is that the public thinks of them as “oil men” somehow connected to the companies raising gasoline prices. The public perception isn’t incorrect either! It’ll be hard work for Karl Rove to convince voters that Bush is on the side of the autodrivers on this issue…

By the way “Arabella” : sometimes mockery is so good that it passes over peoples heads. Sorry! I got took…

We live in a country where the majority believes in a fictious being (jesus) and beleive that the Bible is fact. We have school boards who have to fight off ID being taught. We don’t save money, but have enormous credit card debt. We don’t have universal health care.

When you are working harder and harder for less money and no benefits, you are benfiting the stockholders.

George Bush talks about the sanctity of life, and provides no healthcare programs for pregnant women. Capitalism works by pushing everything back on the individual.

Who has time to do anything other than survive?

But the tide is turning, and we will endure.

Dru–Home Depot sells everything you need and recommends installers. There are several good paper back books that help you assess your situation (amount of sunshine available, amount of usage, available rebates, cost of power etc).

Dru–Home Depot sells everything you need and recommends installers. There are several good paper back books that help you assess your situation (amount of sunshine available, amount of usage, available rebates, cost of power etc).

Oh, in celebration of earth day I thought this photo might be appropriate:

http://www.ohvec.org/galleries…..007/42.jpg

What you see are the verdant hills of the Ohio River Valley… after the kind attentions of Bushco’s friends. And a graphic illustration of the Decider’s patriotic vision of the future role of nature in our great nation :p

What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow
Out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, 20
You cannot say, or guess, for you know only
A heap of broken images, where the sun beats,
And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief,
And the dry stone no sound of water. Only
There is shadow under this red rock, 25
(Come in under the shadow of this red rock),
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
- TS Elliot (The Wasteland)

Most people don’t understand my posts.

Blank Kludge 40 –

CAFE standards are kinda bogus, since they don’t include trucks — SUVs, minivans, maxivans, and pickups are all classified as trucks — which are also exempted from automotive emissions standards.

rwcole- I had no clue that HomerD had such things. Thank you twice!

Arabella @ 37 says

I mediated on a yoga mat.

How does one mediate on a yoga mat?
Is it some kind of psychic conference call?
Sharing distorted physical and esoteric ideals with associates?

Amazing how Bush spent three years telling congress to “pass my energy bill” and right after it was passed, turns around and says “we need a new energy policy”. WTF? As I always say, their incompetence has been demonstrated, they can go home now.

OT but interesting article at
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/ar…..hp?id=7437
on the likely chinks in the armor of the new national unity gov’t. in Iraq.
Peace,
jim

GyroGearLoose;Thanks for that link on Malkin,I don’t like stupid games,but she does deserve it.On the wolves,mess with the top preditors and all suffer.
Jane,nice post.And the only way to interpert Bush program names is through Orwellian goggles.
shoogarp-work them roots,best of luck!
In MD.paradox65@comcast.net-you too can make a differance!

Arabella –

# 45 was a very clear post; # 37 was kinda quirky and obscure — ironic humor maybe? I did like the plastic-caps-on-the-outlets thingy . . .

While a Senator, LBJ lamented that he could never be elected Preznit, because he was from Texas and Americans would always think him in the thrall of Texan oilmen. How we got from that kind of healthy distrust of the extraction business to having these two crooks at the helm (one incompetent, the other evil) I shall never understand….

Happy Earth Day! Love Mother more, she’s kinda pissed at us!

Whoa,that won’t work
paradox65@comcast.net
much better.
gotta throw my son in the bath,be back later

Ceee, if you’re still reading, I left an answer to your question in the oil price thread.

Is there an acronym for a time-zone-related EPU?

ck 50: more than half of all vehicles sold in the USA fit into the not-CAFE regulated category. So yes, CAFE is bogus.

OT, but Billmon seems to think that Condi Needs Bladder Control.

Ed*ard Teller says:
Which 80% is that? The post, the comments, what in particular? Talk about going downhill (which is far more fuel efficient than going uphill, anyway)…

I was referring to the post. More specifically, the ungrounded economic claims, and the criticism of overconsumption by the wealthy.

The wealthy will always be able to consume more of everything, this is America after all.

Governmental price controls have a long history, and they don’t work. You get long lines at the pumps, and black markets. Didn’t your economics texbook cover this?

Begrudging the oil companies their profits is populist BS. Their margins are not so high, and it is a competitive market.

Alternative energy is ridiculous, there’s nothing out there that could produce enough power to fuel this country. This author is playing make believe, just like the President is. He should be thankful to the oil companies for bringing him his gasoline. It is a dirty business, and this way he can pretend his hands are clean.

MB, while not well versed in the particulars, I really like your gas/oil/imported oil/ tax suggestion. Alternative fuels need price stability. In that sense instituting a flexible tax that increases as the price of oil goes down from $75/barrel?, gulp, I hope, makes sense to me.

that list of prices from Autoweek are not particularly relevant, since they are priced for small volume containers. I think that if everyone bought milk by driving up in a truck and filled their own 20 gallon tank from a hose, they could get it for considerably less than $6/gallon.

commenting on hydrogen – it’s correct that hydrogen is a way to store energy, rather than a source of energy. There was a recent paper by a Stanford Univ. ciivil engineer in the journal Science, where he claimed that wind energy could be stored in hydrogen cracked from water more cheaply than any other source of energy. Wind energy and other natural sources (e.g., ocean currents) have enormous potential, but require and “Apollo-Program” sized government effort to replace our current dependence on fossil energy.

Please check out http://www.climatecrisis.net/

I know that we’re usually get birds and the odd fish on our Sunday talk thread, but check out this squid.

From Cephalopods: A World Guide by Mark Norman via pharyngula

OT (off topic)
http://www.faluninfo.net/
“Chinese authorities are enriching themselves from the sale of Falun Gong practitioners’ internal organs…”

Rats. It worked in preview. Here’s a link

“sir henry” truly reflects the aristocratic attitude politically as evinced by his name. The USA is a Republic wherein we forswear foreign titles and can elect representatives empowered to constrain the greed of oil conglomerates. We do not need “our betters” to tell us to relax and enjoy it while being raped!

“Alternative energy is ridiculous, there’s nothing out there that could produce enough power to fuel this country.”
Do you have a link for this?
Do you know anything about the new battery technologies for storing energy? I don’t, I’m just asking.
sir henry, I agree with what I think your point is, that oil companies will need to reinvest their profits in places such as the Canadian sands. Is this being done now or are oil companies simply “skimming the profits” and not reinvesting them in new exploration and new refining techniques?

Alternative energy is ridiculous.

Wow, Sir Henry, tell it to the Brazilians.

You’d better hope you’re wrong if you’re under 35. Otherwise, you’e going to be doing a lot of walking when you’re my age … unless you’re one of the oligarchs.

Personally, I think the solution needs to a portfolio of taxes:–

- Inverse progressive tax on consumers as the price of oil goes down (as suggested)

- Progressive tax on oilco earnings as the price of oil goes up

- Congestion tax for car use where public/mass transit alternatives exist

- Singaporean style car licensing system

- Corp tax credits for refining capacity expansion

- Increased tax credits for alternative energy investment

- Removal of all tax credits for E&P activities

- Passive tax on reserves

Of course, we’d be locking at oil at $250 a barrel, but personally I find that a good thing (and the only thing that’s going to incentivise the transition to energy alternatives).

… but then again, I never saw a tax I didn’t like…

Whatever “next big thing” we develop to replace our fossil-fuel dependence, we’ll need to start fast. We’ll have to design, build, and scale-up the “next big thing” with fossil-fuel technology.

You need plastic caps in the outlets and plugs in the drains. You need lightning rods. You need saran wrap on the windows. You need to save the beaver.

You need perpetual motion.

You need commenters on a lefty blog who say they know how to solve the fuel crisis–really, trust me–but who don’t have time to leave the secret formula.

You need tinfoil hats!

Dru — you might also consider a “Green roof”, i.e., plants; it’s quite popular in Europe and the technology is here as well.

Blub 48 — John Prine’s song about Mr. Peabody’s coal train, which I always thought pretty well covered the subject, doesn’t. *ouch* Major League, unforgettable *OUCH*.

*ilson46201 says:
The USA is a Republic wherein we forswear foreign titles and can elect representatives empowered to constrain the greed of oil conglomerates. We do not need “our betters†to tell us to relax and enjoy it while being raped!

You consume a resource which is mainly extracted in countries that have horrible governments. Governments that kill their citizens in the most brutal way, with the support of your patronage. They are the ones who are going to bend you over the barrel, not the oil companies.

And the tinfoil hats only work shiny-side-out!

“funding research”

Yes that’s a good thing. In addition- let’s get existing technology used.

Photovatalic cells exist right now- they work! The return on investment is still relatively low (about 5%) for an installation that delivers 100% of electricity. Add rebates available now in California- and you’re up to 10% return- which is pretty good. The systems last for thirty years with little or no maintainence- and the return on investment just gets better the higher power rates go.

Clusterfuck talks about plug in hybrids as a “future” solution. Not true- you can buy one today. You’ll just PAY more because Clusterfuck’s govt. hasn’t gotten behind em yet.

If these two products become mainstream- and the govt can make that happen overnight- the research will happen at the expense of the companies building the products- and it will be PRACTICAL research- used to improve and existing and profitable product line.

These are two areas where the US could be the leaders- building up a storehouse of patents and unique processes that will be in high demand in the decades ahead.

There is actually a good chance of getting legislation through the Senate next year that would place mandatory controls on global warming emissions in the U.S. The House is, at the moment, a lost cause. Let’s hope Nov. fixes that problem.

Sen. Domenici (R-NM) seems fairly committed to moving forward, along with Sen. Bingaman. Domenici essentially got taken to the woodshed by Cheney last year on climate change during the energy bill debates. He met with Cheney at the White House and was told he should not support legislation on mandatory emission reductions. Basically, Domenici said it was time to do something about climate change, and that he would keep working to get a bill passed.

It’s weak to attack appearance.

But Ed*ard Teller, he should be thankful that somebody somebody is selling him something and becoming the most profitable industry in the world? Not quite sure that’s how I’d look at it. Most profit of any company ever, Exxon. I think they still had a few employees 6 years ago when gas was 1.40 a gallon. And you might want to check that economic text book and not look under price controls but under unfettered capitalism. Like when you create an energy policy in cooperation with oil executives. I guess because alternative energy isn’t completely viable yet we should just stop trying?

dammit *ilson46201 – don’t feed the trolls ! Now you got them blaming the “evil furriners” for gasoline pump prices in the USA…

That’s right. W reads whatever they put in front of him. It’s when he ad libs that we can read his heart. (it ain’t good).

Obviously, these guys are not interested in helping to solve our energy problems. They are intersted in profiting from our energy needs.

The good ol’ boys and their old way (burning fuels) will rule until their representatives can be voted out.

They make speeches and create sound bytes that half of our population believes. More air time is needed for our side to tell the real story.

Unfortunately, the story is not simple. Homer Simpson cannot grasp anything more than sound bytes. Liberals need sound bytes, and more exposure.

Back when I was doing my Biolgy degree, we ran a computer simulation involving rabbits (prey species) and some kind of big cat (predator species).

As you might expect if there was plenty of prey the predator species’ population boomed. They’d eat lots of prey. As a result, the prey species population would crash.

This in turn would lead to crashes in the predator population.

You would get oscillations that would mimic each other, but slightly out of sync.

The trouble would occur if the predator population dropped below a certain threshold. If it went too low, then, despite plenty of prey, the predator pop would fail to rebound. This was due to numerous factors, including fewer young and longer breeding cycles.

This was also not good for the prey species as they would continue to boom, until they reached the limit of their environment and then their pop would be decimated even more severely than normal.

Back in the 13th century, the first great pandemic of Bubonic Plague swept the world. The human population dipped precariously close to its threshold level. That’s right, we were almost wiped out as a species.

As similar event happened in the past for cheetahs. All cheetahs now living are virtually indistiguishable genetically. At some point there was such a drop in population, the genetic pool from which cheetahs come, became very small.

Today all cheetahs are very susceptible to the same microbiological predators. It’s part of the reason they are so endangered. The risk of a pandemic that could wipe them all out in their native habitat is very high. There is not enough variability in to allow some to survive even if others die.

We don’t have anywhere else to go to escape our fate. We will not make it to any other planet in any significant numbers for it to count as a new frontier.

Whether we manage to deal with the real issues facing us so that we can go forward with at least a sense of control over our future, is unlikely with this gang in the Whitehouse.

Even if you live in a solar home with geothermal heating, as George Bush does in Texas, it will not likely save you if the cities break down and we all suffer the tragedy of the commons.

If you no longer trust there is enough for all, chances are you will horde what you can for you and yours, or steal it from another to help you and yours.

The Universe tends towards Chaos.

TeddySanFran–ain’t the the truth! Reynolds Wrap all the way, baby!

One aspect of the ever-increasing cost of oil-in-the-barrel that never seems to be noticed is the speculative nature of the oil futures market, conducted by people of questionable emotional stability (ie ‘excitable’). It is the nature of speculative markets to attempt to increase the value of the commodity, regardless of the ‘external’ reality.

And, sir henry, I believe the obscene oil industry profits are net profits; net profits define your margin. And when all your buddies are making record profits too, where’s the competition?

sir henry, are you a U.S. citizen?

and the 13th Century bubonic plague affected the Incas how?

But *ilson,did’nt all the people live in Europe?

Per Meteor Blades:
“Sweet escape from fossil fuel trap”
“Sugar cane helps Brazil lessen its reliance on oil But it’s taken 30 years — and cost billions in grants”
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/…..0599119419

*ilson…didn’t you know that you were the only one who still uses foreign fossil fuels? All of us elites have serfs to turn the water wheels that provide our energy.

It is absurd to look for one solution to provide all of our energy needs- if that’s the goal- then give up.

On the other hand- what we need to do is to stop our growth in energy usage and reduce demand by a fairly conservative number- say 20% over the next 10 years- using a VARIETY of methods and technologies. That is VERY doable.

sir henry,

Re: “Begrudging the oil companies their profits is populist BS. Their margins are not so high, and it is a competitive market.”

When you only have four major oil companies domestically it’s not a “competitive market” Also the refining costs and profits are higher when the price per barrel of oil is higher. Explain that one?

Re: “You consume a resource which is mainly extracted in countries that have horrible governments.”

Wrong again, about 50% of our consumption is produced domestically. About 10% from Mexico and another 10% from Canada

John Casper says:
Do you know anything about the new battery technologies for storing energy? I don’t, I’m just asking.

Batteries just store energy in a useful form, you still have to charge them up with a power plant. I wouldn’t count those as alternative energy. There was an editorial the other day in the WaPo by a co-founder of Greenpeace, advocating nuclear energy. I expect that he has thought about the alternatives very carefully, before reaching this conclusion. Google “Going Nuclear”…

*ilson46201, um, Lent’s over now…

Several countries have already taken radical steps to lower fossil fuel usage.

France produces the vast majority of it’s power with nuclear energy.

Germany is the world leader in usage of wind and solar energy- even in a very northern latitude.

Japan is progressing quickly.

The US is way behind in these areas- and there is no excuse for it.

personally, I have my 4 pitbulls run on a treadmill to provide electricity for my TV and computer… no “evil furriners” supplying oil for me !

(I wish! the damn mutts won’t stay off the sofa…much less run a treadmill)

“Re: “You consume a resource which is mainly extracted in countries that have horrible governments.â€

“Wrong again, about 50% of our consumption is produced domestically…”

Uh…Cozumel? I think you just agreed with him.

RW Cole at #90 is exactly right. Wingers dismiss this concept outright with their Limbaugh soundbytes.

I was lying about giving up my initial letter for Lent. The reality is that the Preznit has brought such abuse, shame and disrepute to “W” that I elided it so as not be to associated with him in any way…

Bob Adams,

I did? “Mainly” is less than 50%? ; )

Coz–Well whatever part is coming from the US is coming from a country that has a horrible government. See what he means?

101

.

Cozumel: The US has a horrible government.

Have to agree with hackwth 98 re rwcole 90. Most of the dissing of alternatives has a distinctly sophomoric “perectionist fallacy” tone.

rwcole

Dammit!
I wanted to be 101

.

rwcole,

“Coz–Well whatever part is coming from the US is coming from a country that has a horrible government. See what he means?”

ROFL! ; )

Oops, don’t tell the right wingers I said that. They’ll sat that I Hate America. They can’t tell the difference.

Dammit, I wanted to be 107

From rwcole: “It is absurd to look for one solution to provide all of our energy needs- if that’s the goal- then give up.”
I agree hackworth.
Multiple sources also offers the possibility of healthy overlap and greater redundancy. Wrt the laws of supply and demand, when it comes to water, food, energy, health care, we need to build spare capacity into the systems for unforeseen shortages, otherwise known as emergencies.

107 neurophius,Wingers see what they want,facts don’t matter

With NO government subsidies- solar power gives a 5% return on investment at TODAY’S prices. (Higher return for smaller installations that only produce a portion of one’s electric bill).

It would be interesting to know what the return on investment of a nuke plant is with NO govt. subsidy. Bet it’s negative.

neurophius

You be just a Blame America Firster!

:)

I home teach teens who are expelled or sick. I have a senior who just finished her senior report on the reintegration of wolves in Yellowstone – she did a great job and everything you say is true. The whole ecosystem has rebounded. Sometimes the answers are so very simple if we could just get the politicians out of the way.

Someone mentioned the importance of oil in plastics, etc. – GREAT POINT! Most people have no idea how much oil is used for everyday stuff we consume.

Another point that needs to be hammered is the transportation costs of our food. Fruit (pineapples specifically) are the most environmentally damaging food on the planet when transportation costs are figured in. We joined a CSA last year – we get a box of locally grown organic produce every week AND we support a progressive farm! Btw, if you haven’t seen the Indie Film “The Real Dirt on Farmer John†DO SO!

The people in power are not the Constitution. Bush is not America. Now, If I can just keep telling myself that, maybe I will last for the next 1,000 days withoug my head exploding…

agave, I am a Blame Bushco Fitzer.

Most electricity rates are “tiered” you get the first X number of kilowatt hours at a very low rate- but the rate keeps going up for more usage- making the last kilowatt hours you use the most expensive. A system that reduced one’s usage to the number of kilowatt hours allowed under the lowest rate gives a very high return on investment. You buy all the cheap energy the power company will sell you and produce the rest yourself.

Wind generated electric power is now cheaper than gas, coal, and nuclear power.

The current rise in gasoline prices has more to do with refining capacity than availability of crude. Specifically, Big Oil saw that they could increase profits if they didn’t update and expand existing refineries. And before trolls even think about blaming environmentalists, new refineries are not the issue — expanding the capacity of existing refineries is.

Of course, Peak Oil is real, and it is here now. The refinery bottleneck is related, but very predictable. All of Saudi Arabia’s reserve capacity is heavy sour crude, rather than the sweet light crude the refiners love.

But that’s the way it is — going forward, more and more of our energy will come from lower quality crude.

One more thing — the refining capacity crisis has a precursor — the California electrical crisis. Just like Enron gamed the transmission business, Big Oil has gamed the refining business.

neurophius, I new dat.

.

rwcole: what book(s) do you recommend on solar products for home retrofit? Thanks for the Home Depot lead — I’ll check that out.

I agree with Neurophius 114. Thats the way it is.

Now, if the pain at the pump can be translated into legislative incentives for greater energy efficiency, that will be a good thing; but with the GOP in power, that ain’t gonna happen.

This is a pretty heartless post. What happens to those who won’t have the money to pay to get to work? Sure, it may pain middle income people to action, but it will devestate lower-income people. This is exactly why I don’t think the contemporary liberal movement is worth much.

Do the ends really justify the means?

rat bastahd,
Thanks for the comment. I don’t know if you saw this WaPo article about Coyotes in DC and surrounding areas by Mary Battiata
Sunday, April 16, 2006; Page W06
“As coyotes settle into the Washington suburbs, they provoke awe, anxiety and a fundamental question: Do they have to adapt to us, or we to them?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01256.html
I have seen coyotes here in Wisconsin and was thrilled to learn they don’t hunt in packs and are great mousers and eat crickets….

DMM: I have to correct the record. I did not start the Roots Project. It was begun by Jane, Glenn Greenwald and John Amato, principally, as I recall. Jane has asked me to help it grow, but that was a recent development.

“maybe I will last for the next 1,000 days”

I’m I the only person who still wants/expects Clusterfuck to be impeached? I think that 1000 days needs to be 310. In 310 days this’ll all be over… I need that hope for my sanity :) Please please pleasse let the October surprise be disclosure of Clusterfuck’s aborted lovechild….

rwcole #111,

Trojan nuclear power plant ring a bell?

ck—Well there is a bit of debate as to whether production has peaked or will peak in the next ten years. Some say we’re “there” others say we have another decade- and there seems to be no way of determining which view is correct. At any rate- it will be here very soon- and using the US as a model- once production peaks- the downward curve is pretty steep.

Once production begins to decline- with the growth in world demand- prices will escalate RAPIDLY.

$200 per barrel oil anyone?

That’s the sort of price we will face.

At that point the economics of the situation will begin to produce a move to alternatives- very quickly.

curious in central Texas,

Here’s some info…

http://www.realestatejournal.c…..reira.html

I’m American, yes. I also used to be a bike messenger, so the hypocrisy really irritates me, when you drivers/addicts complain about your suppliers/dealers.

gq, I think the point was mid terms elections and the need to get the GOP out of control of at least one house of Congress. Have you heard of Abramoff? He’s just the tip of the iceburg of a larger web of Republican welfare that attempts to control the information that gets out.

*ilson,

For the population to be unable to rebound doesn’t require it to drop to zero. So there is no actual necessity for the plague to have reached every discrete population, for the human population to have been at long term risk of extinction.

If the number of a species gets too low, then in the process of rebounding you get added problems with genetic issues, disease or contrary weather wiping out any gains made. There is decreased diversity and a lowered level of reproduction.

It’s not an extinction of a moment, but more of a long slow fade full of lost chances and bad luck.

I’m sure you’ve seen the graphs of the human population that show a slow gradual rise in population until just the 19th century when our population started to grow exponentially. There just weren’t that many of us for a long time.

And don’t forget, that if we had stopped being the dominant predator in many areas of the world, Nature would not have hesitated to find something to take our place.

exploding is a misspeeling of sploding, when refering to the head.

Please keep up.

.

Although there have been advances over the past 25 years in the U.S., we’ve essentially wasted a quarter century in which we could have made terrific strides, albeit, as John Casper points out, with lots of subsidies. But EVERY energy source has required subsidies of some sort in the past – including, in the case of coal and uranium mining, the blood subsidy of killing workers for lack of safety and health regulations and the ghting of unions with taxpayer money.

When Ronald Reagan pulled down the solar panels from the White House roof 25 years ago, and said alternative energy/conservation fans just wanted for Americans to “freeze to death in the dark,” he gave voice to some people who are still speaking today. Excuse me, but if anyone here don’t think we should press forward with alternatives (and conservation), you’re an idiot.

Amory and Hunter Lovins say the best place to start is STILL conservation. Although the U.S. would be using 30 more quadrillion BTUs than it now does – a 30% increase – if it hadn’t conserved since Jimmy Carter’s era, the Lovinses argue that the country has done only about a third as much conserving as it could do.

Of course, if you’re in an African village not served with electricity, you can’t conserve. And you probably can’t afford the tremendous cost of power lines. But you probably can, collectively, buy some solar PVs and power up some lights, a refrigerator, a television. That’s how ridiculous alternative energy is.

OfT: Here’s a preview of what Rove and Mehlman have planned for the fall. Francine Busby has responded to an ad run in the 50th CD in California; the NRCC has accused Francine of being soft on a teacher charged with child porn.

(pdf file:)
http://www.busbyforcongress.or…..t-lies.pdf

Billmon’s funny today —

Condi’s incontinence, and the CheneyBot reboots . . .

http://billmon.org/

Mass transit is the real short and long term answer. Poor people must use mass transit. Of course, infrastructure must be in place in a viable system. Workers and Yuppies use it to save money. Rich people use it for convenience, or to show off, or to make a point. Mass transit is almost always the most efficient method of trans..

pssst Henry : I dont own a car – I’ve never owned an internal combustion engine device of any sort. I live in a big city kinda downtown. I use a bus pass and occasional taxis. I dont do it for do-gooder environmental reasons: it’s just simpler and cheaper to live this way. And yes, I do have 4 ornery pitbulls. I don’t blame “evil furriners” for matters under US control either…

Curious–I’ve got “Complete Idiots Guide to Solar Power for Your Home” on my desk right now- but I haven’t read it yet. There is another small paperback that I have studied pretty thoroughly- but it seems to have walked away. I’ll post the name when I locate it.

The oil story has many good examples of how narratives are controlled. I heard today on the news the typical spiel about how the President has no real control over short term oil prices. In the next breath, however, the analyst talks about tensions with Iran being a main culprit in the recent increase in gas prices. Somehow the idea doesn’t register that if Bush and company had not heated up the rhetoric with Iran this current speculation on oil could have been avoided. So while Bush can’t do alot about prices at the moment he certainly could have before.

The compensation package for the head of Exxon/Mobil is another example. OTOH it’s argued that while his retirement settlement is large it’s a one time thing. OTOH to make it seem less than it is it’s argued that it reflects accumulations over many years (so smaller). My narrative is somewhat different: he ripped the company off for a huge amount of money over many years.

Oh yes, if you want the longer list of why gas prices are going up, choose any of the following: seasonal transitions, inventories, oil refinery problems, instability (real or imagined) anywhere, higher or lower temperatures, increased demand (domestic or foreign). Mix and match and you will get what any government investigation into price fixing will find. What you won’t find is blame for the oil companies. Somehow it never hits print how subtle adjustments and manipulations of these various parameters can cause a perfectly defensable spike in prices and profits. Go figure.

dannyboy- is there more to a rooftop garden more than a regular garden on the roof? if so could you recommend a particular link or resource?
And here is a coincidence; I saw John Prine in concert last night; of course he did “Daddy, won’t you take me back to Muhlenberg County?” and a new one called Some Humans Ain’t Human. I highly recommend :)

Excuse me, but if anyone here don’t think we should press forward with alternatives (and conservation), you’re an idiot.

As much respect as I have for Meteor Blades, first of all it’s ‘doesn’t think’ not ‘don’t think’ and if he thinks anyone here don’t think we should press forward with alternatives.
He’s the idiot.

.

Thanks for the link, TeddySanFran. I think Francine is responding in exactly the right way. Hope other Democrats running this year have the sense to do likewise so the swiftboaters don’t gain any ground.

Harry- You seem to be intersted enough in this topic to continue making posts- but not interested enough to post anything but general slams with nothing to back them up. Please at least take a specific position- or make a specific criticism and I will be happy to engage you. Otherwise- you are just wasting your time and ours.

James Kunstler sez in “The Long Emergency” (please don’t ask why I’m reading this right after “American Theocracy”) that because US power companies believe that we will eventually have either solar or hydrogen power sited in our homes, they aren’t maintaining our national grid. There is a lot of hyperbole in this book, but I’m very worried when I read that — it makes sense, from a corporation’s viewpoint, not to maintain an infrastructure that will be obsolete soon. But if we’re not subsidizing the conversion, how will we get to the hydrogen and solar economy? We can’t just use up all the oil & natural gas powering our cars and heating our homes — and then say, “well, now, what’s the next thing?”

O.K.. Yes we recieve most of our oil from out of country. yes Bushco wants to drill in the now off limits ANWR. But, for a moment, let me speak to you about a hitherto little known fact. This country is right now uncapping every frikkin oil well it knows about.To wit; Where I work we use a lot of the same pumps that are used in the Texas oil fields. As of today,4-22-06, I have had parts on back order for just this type of pump for over 2 months.Just parts. When I last called on the status of these parts I was told the above bit of information. I was also told that in the past 6-8 months, the wait time on a NEW pump had gone from 4-6 months to 10-12 months.The crunch has yet to hit, but is coming. Venezuala has more oil than Saudi Arabia,is closer for shipment and would be a bit of a release from the stranglehold the middle east has on us. Pray tell, WTF is Clusterfucks foriegn policy wrt Venezuela?Here is a clue, their Presisent called GW a ‘drunken mule’. Which is also where Harry Belafonte called GW the biggest terrorist in the world. Smart guy, our GW.

Pach,OK my bad.You have helped it grow.

So what is your problem, *ilson? You’re not the one getting raped by oil prices. Neither am I. It’s all just a bunch of pissing and moaning, lots of noise about nothing in particular.

Oil exporting countries are on average lousy places. That’s just a fact, not an assignment of blame. To buy their product is to support them. I guess it is easier to boycott South Africa though, than Nigeria.

speaking of Venezuela and oil prices: one of my pitbabies is named “Hugo” and the youngest is “Evo”…

ooh I love me some John Prine…

Last night on Real Time With Bill Maher, retired General Anthony Zinni referenced this book:

Dereliction of Duty :
Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
and the Lies That Led to Vietnam

In my opinion, this book should be required reading for anyone who is considering entering either politics or the military. The lessons of this book are just as relevant today as we 3,000 US service people killed in action.

I was impressed that retired Gen. Zinni had not only read the book but thought enough of it to mention it on Maher.

-x-

new thread – and yes, henry is a racist troll too!

Teddy- Actually the grid is essential to the success of solar power. The beauty of the current systems is that they can draw from the grid when necessary (eg nightime) and feed the grid when sunshine is plentiful (eg summer days). They are “On Grid” systems- not battery back up systems. If we got moving today on installations- the power companies could get by without building new generating plants- but their existing infrastructure would still be an important part of the system.

Typo:

“…as we approach 3,000 US service people killed in action.”

hackworth

Poor people must use mass transit.

This is why it is resisted in some places.
Where I live, they hate the idea.
Mass transit will let ‘those’ people come up here.
Then what will happen? They will be in ‘our’ Mall, fuck ‘they’ will use mass transit to come up from Houston and steal our cars!
And the property values?

(spit)

.

Sometimes I’ll write somethings’from the hip’ so to speak.OK for snarky stuff,but facts matter when things get serious.correct me as nessesary,no thin skin here.

New thread. 33% by Pam Spaulding.

Busted- we already get a lot of oil from Venezuala. It mostly comes to a refinery in Lake Charles La. which the Venezualans bought from a company I once worked for. The problem is the sourness of their crude oil- and the refinery they bought may be the only one in the nation that can handle their product. (heavy sulphur content).

Re: John Prine (#74, #139, #148)

The name of that song is “Paradise”. It is the first song I ever learned how to play and sing on a guitar. I went on to learn 30-40 John Prine songs. I go to see him every chance I get.

Windmill farms are big in Denmark but the only dialogue I’ve heard about them here is how people don’t want them in their backyards.

To encourage use of more economical venhicles you need to heavily tax big heavy fuel guzzlers… say 100% so these SUVs will cost $100K to purchase and then give tax credits to cars which get above 50MPG.. say $5,000.

Then charge variable tax at the pump based on the fuel efficiency of the model. Gas guzzlers getting less than 20 mpg pay 100% surcharge on fuel at the pump.

rwcole–if you’re still here despite the EPU effect–

I was wondering, what is the source of your expertise on energy issues? I mean that seriously, I am not being sarcastic.

Ed N Sted- It was a great show; I was thinking he might be somewhat frail but he was robust and amazing.

nuero

Well I worked for a couple of companies who were gasoline retailers- and for a while refiners- but I also read a lot. I have been interested in the peak oil question for a couple of years and have read several books on the subject- and have been reading everything new I can get my hands on with regard to solar energy and plug in hybrids.

Curious in Central Texas -

lots of Texas bloggers link to this site – If you’re in the Austin area you should check it out – the program is currently oversubscribed but they are soon to expand it (we’re in the que!) lots of links here as well – City of Austin has a great incentive/buyback program for solar.

also, if you’re an Austin Energy customer, and not TXU – you can get rebates on your purchase of CFL (compact fluorlescent light) bulbs – many of the locally owned water companies reimburse you for purchase of free flow toilets, although few advertise the fact

and if you’re not already reading redneck mother – it’s been fun to follow her saga of going solar, plus she’s a straight up hoot to read (not linking due to ‘comment moderation) but check her out

linked text

All this talk about solar energy makes me so glad (not) that I live here in NE Ohio, one of the cloudiest places in the nation.

However, my young neighbor who works at NASA-Glenn tells me they are doing some exciting work with engines that do not run on fossil fuels. Although, I guess a solar panel engine wouldn’t work too well in my neighborhood, either. :(

Dru — I can’t, at the moment, but you could try Googling it. And yes, a Green Roof is more than just a rooftop garden: it’s energy-efficient, keeps the place cooler in summer, warmer in winter, etc., etc. We thought about it for some of our larger sheds but honestly haven’t had time so they’re still tin.

And John Prine remains one of my favorites — I think in an altered state I could still play most of his stuff on either the guitar or piano, whichever was nearer. How’d you like him?

Quart of Milk 16 oz for $1.59 = $6.32 per gallon

Uh, not to niggle, but how about making that Quart of Milk 32 oz.

A couple of points- ilson4261 stated in post 11 that heating your home with electricity is too ineffeciant is not exactly true. Ground based heat pumps that both heat and cool your home and use only electricity are the MOST effeciant means to do so. Costs are two to three times what a gas furnice, regular air conditioner run but payback in my state in decreased energy costs are 3-5 years not including rebates from the energy companies/federal government for installing them.
In post 30 bustednuckles states that a 1910 ford model got better mileage than the present day lincoln town car. But the model A wasn’t the lincoln town car of it’s age its equivalent to a modern day car like the ford focus. and its top speed was what? 35-40mph – what would be the mpg for a modern car if it was geared and set up to operate at a top speed of 40mph?

BTW, milk also has a long history of government subsidization.

Jeez. Now I’m being blasted for typos?

Given the comment that alternative energy is “ridiculous,” I guess I’ll have to say that at least somebody here DOESN’T think we should press forward with alternatives.