Fitz! Save the whistleblowers!!!

fitz!

Hah. Brilliant snark Jane!

report is to Fitz!

Fitz, Feingold and Firedoglake!!

Thanks, Jane. This is an outrage!

Agave, accidental texan – welcome aboard!

and

Prostratedragon – thanks for the IL impeachment link – I sent it out over the IL Roots list so maybe we can help with that.

And Jane, dear, which leak would that be? *evil grin*

Jane, could you check out #137 previous thread. Might be time to flip the switch, sweetie.

Check out:–

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01984.html

My understanding is that there are several bills which would protect federal whistleblowers beyond Sarbanes-Oxleey, and that these are being held up by rethug maneauvering. If they pass, expect a signing statement from the preznit.

China does this quite regularly by the way… economically destroy whistleblowers and their relatives. Maybe that’s one of the sidebar conversations the preznit had with Hu this week… “Pst.. I need some advice on techniques for crushing political opponents… you seem to do it so well in your own country.”

I had a secret clearance when I worked in DC too many years ago. Regarding polygraph, they did then. I worked at NAVTELCOM in personnel and there were a couple of instances in the five years I was there when my boss arranged for such tests.

EPU’ed

Just on NBC Nightly News….

The CIA “leaker†that was fired yesterday is named Mary McCarthy….

Seems like a selective prosecution designed to have a chilling effect on anyone else who might be thinking of leaking about programs or policies which seem to be either in violation of US law, or which make us out to be grossly hypocritical on when we adhere to and when we ignore long-standing principles of our democracy. Who’s next? The person or persons who leaked about the NSA warrantless wiretapping?

I, too, would like to know why Rove’s leaking didn’t violate the confidentiality agreement he signed.

What I fear is that this administration will fight to the death to allow those within it to violate laws and agreements at will, as long as it works to their benefit, and will hang out to dry, in as punitive a way as possible, anyone who dares to question the legality or morality of the Bush administration’s actions.

OT, but I thought of the question I coulda-shoulda-woulda posted in the delurking thread last night–though I in fact delurked some months ago, it’s never too late, I hope. Perhaps EPU, lhp, Mary, and/or our other legal eagles can enlighten me.

What determines when/whether something is investigated/charged on a federal vs. a state level? Crimes at the federal level, or involving multiple states, I understand; but, for example, take the public corruption stuff in Illinois, involving state and/or city employees. Why wouldn’t that be a state investigation? When/why/how do the feds get hold of cases like that? Thanks in advance.

zennurse,
Thought I would save myself an ignamanious EPU from last thread. Thanks for the link, I bookmarked to play with later.

I have also read that polygraphs are done randomly in the govt esp in sensitive departments. But are they being ratcheted up because of the Admin defensiveness about the NSA article and it’s truthiness? Yes, I think so, and it is incredibly hypocritical and ultimately stupid on their part, putting a lot more emphasis on the Leaker in Chief. But of course, that means nothing to Bush because he’s not the Leaker, he’s the Decider and he’s decided he’s not the Leaker.

Pretzel Logic.

If you have any type of clearance you are subject to polygraph.

You might want to check out the National Defense Authorization Act for 2004…

Busted, someone also linked a site that has a little playroom for practice, but I didn’t save it. It’s a little thrill when it works for the first time and I’m now enjoying the

I am shocked, just shocked that anyone working for the government would leak classified information, especially when it is evidence that the government itself committed serial and multiple felonies. These whistleblowers are destroying the very fabric of our democracy. I tell you, I am just shocked.

It gets demonstrated time and time again;they do what they want to do,rules and laws be damned.Unless of course its us in the crosshairs,alltogether different then.

I have a question about Yearly Kos, and wondered if anyone here knows much about it. Don’t know if Jane is following along here, but I got my vaca approved and will be able to go for at least part, but I don’t find the website very friendly. Does one need to sign up for particular sessions, or do you just arrive and hope there’s room? Usually there is some kind of sign up required, but I haven’t been able to find it. Asked via e-mail but have not had an answer.

Sorry this is OT, guys, but don’t have Kos membership and not sure where else to ask.

Mary McCarthy….

A little background…

http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..carthy.htm

zenn, I haven’t heard anything about the sessions themselves requiring registration; I suspect it’s going to be a free-for-all. But I will see what I can find out for you.

Zennurse
” But of course, that means nothing to Bush because he’s not the Leaker, he’s the Decider and he’s decided he’s not the Leaker.”
tee hee good one!

My understanding from one of my former professors- a CIA agent in residence at the university I attended- is that the use of polygraph tests is extremely routine inside the Intelligence field.

zennurse Pretzel Logic

and all FDLers noting a certain inconsistency in applicable laws (and I’m ashamed to admit ignorance re: whistleblower/Oxley etc) but there’s almost a mafia like book keeping going on here. “See, it says right here: we get to cheat and lie, and you gotta play by the rulebook.”

It seems some fiasco wll appear out of the foul bowels that passes for the halls of power in DC that remind me of this:

http://www.searchlores.org/contract.html

Oh yes, polyraphs are used constantly, and for no particular reason, at places like the CIA and NSA. I am liberal and once a card carrying ACLU member but I’m not upset about this practice. I’d say it unfortunately just goes with the job description.

Zen 17 and busted:

I saved the link:

http://www.ranchoweb.com/help/index.php

Whoever provided it in last nights de-lurk said it had a practice room or some such other.

Sigh. Not to be a WATB, or anything but it frustrates the HECK out of me that I always am too late to read Troll comments before the Trexinator rolls by…

I know they never say anything GOOD – but I wanna READ how stupid they really are.

Coz 11 – I was also EPU’d, but I couldn’t be more proud of my namesake.

Ann 12 – absolutely they are trying to make sure no one discusses things that the govt is doing illegally. Rove’s difference may very well end up being that the President “authorized” him to “leak”. That may be why Novak has made all his blustery statements – first they have been running with the “President can leak anything he wants any way he wants” and then they say, in the Sun article: Oh, looky looky, Plame isn’t listed as being covert, just “classified” and the Pres can leak that or authorize Rove to leak it. All better now.”

And there is nothing in his CA that probably mentions things like fibbing to the FBI and a GJ as being, well, “bad.”

BTW – a situation like Mary McCarthy is probably why a rush to want to see charges under the Espionage Act, while possibly gratifying in the Libby/Rove context, might set a nasty precedent for down the line. Personally, I wouldn’t want to see it, but that’s only MO.

I have a brother who works in the defense industry, and he said there were regular polygraphs. So I think the practice is pretty widespread.

Iirc ,(Thanks for that one Jane)

I saw an article a while ago where ol’ Clusterfuck got pissed about a certain leak.
(severe short term memory loss. No joke) And ordered polygraph tests for just a certain level of CIA employees.

re: Pretzel Logic (redux) “I’m the Decider” etc.

“I am completely operational, and all my circuits are functioning perfectly.”

With luck, Fitz of the State of Illinois will have the Decider singing “Daisy”…

Thanks Suzanne. I bookmarked that one too. Admitting ignorance isn’t easy, But it beats the hell out of proving it without doubt.

Thanks for the link Coz.
I am just thrilled that Dr. McCarthy isn’t in an old Soviet prison somewhere in Eastern Europe receiving interrogation techniques approved by DeadEye.
The fact that the CIA fired her, suggests she has access to the courts, and we can get a test case on the whistleblower law.

BTW Coz, EPU was invoking you on the delurking thread last night for your fine efforts wrt Wikpedia.

i have a leak to report — george bush is pissing on the constitution

Even if Rove and company were put to the test, it would do no good. The Polygraph is useless on psychopaths. You gotta have a conscience.

P.S.
Shouldn’t the title of this post be “Which Begs The Question…”? ;-)

Busted

Go to the quick and dirty html page and it has a link to the practice page.

Mary and John,

It will be interesting to see where this goes. CNN just cited NBC’s scoop a few minutes ago. Also that investigators had 13 “instances of contact” or something like that between Mary and Dana Priest I guess!? Phone records and/or email I guess.

zennurse: I think the sessions are available to you as an attendee.

Blank, that link is great, so appropriate.

Dr. Mary McCarthy is a highly placed and informed person and I bless her for what she has done. Porter Goss has said that there were “very serious consequences” of this leak but have we ever seen that substantiated? I expect Dr. McCarthy knows….

Thanks again. I just want you all to know what a supreme effort at self control just happened here.

I hope that Mary McCarthy sleeps better at nite soon and that many in Congress and the country will stand up for her– I know that as painful as it was to hear of these secret prisons, I sleep better when the truth is known and we have the opportunity to right the horrible wrongs.

I’m pretty sure that Goss flat out told the Senate committee that they were going to be polygraphing multiple employees specifically on the leaks (of illegal and “unwarranted†govt actions). I’m sure they do polygraph a lot in general, but that the questions probably are slightly different in nature to what they targeted here.

Leslie 13: For the Feds to get involved, there have to be FEDERAL statutes, not state or local, that were violated. There is some Federal common law (non-statutory) but not much. Sometimes, there are both Federal and State statutes that overlap and cover the same types of activities – where either could bring charges. I haven’t looked at the actual charges in Ryan, but my understanding is that some were related to Fed. trucking statutes and things like bribery and fraud of officials could be covered by both Fed and State statutes, depending on the exact context and actions. I’m not sure if that helps?

So, was this a press release? A comment on an ongoing investigation? Or was this story leaked to Ms. Mitchell? And by whom, for what purpose?

What I want to know is, what is the acceptible way for a government employee to report illegal government actions or Geneva Conventions violations when his supervisors are actively engaged in the illegal activity, and when whistleblower protection is not available? The employee can always quit so he doesn’t have to suffer the consequences if caught, but how does that help all the rest of us who need to have a government following the law and Geneva conventions; the government bad guys will just find a replacement who will do it.
What do they do, act like Sergeant Schultz in Hogan’s Heros (”I know nothing!”), or sit in the docket at Nuremburg and just say they were following orders?

Busted, you must elaborate.

Thanks Pach, I guess it’s first come, first served, yes? I just don’t want to get shut out of Jane and Christy’s panel discussion. I’ll get up early and camp out, I guess.

Jane: “Is this how it always works? I’d very much like to know.”

So we’ve established that the polygraphs are SOP, but what about the firing? I think this is really important as regards Rove and Cheney, as well as the peripheral folks like Hadley. If it is part of a formal procedure, then they should also have had polygraphs and been fired. Clearly no firing has taken place, so we clearly have more fuel for complaint by Congress.

popping in from first barbque of the season – weee!

Zenn dear – I’ll check with the organizers tonight and have an answer for you reYKOS – I’m working on media stuff and sending over some materials later today (post barbque!)

I very much want to see how they justify secret prisons and massive NSA 4th Amendment (even without regard to FISA) violations as “classified.”

What am I thinking – they already have the “Bush can do everything and all Federal Agencies are here to be enforcers and enablers and its all legal, move along” memos in hand.

THe last few years have been hell on my dental work.

I keep asking this question, but I get no answer, so I suspect the worst. Is ReddHedd Christy coming back?

Because I have a leak I’d like to report….

Do tell.
(just whisper it in my ear)

.

This should amuse. The leaker prosecution story is headlined as follows at FoxNews:–

THE BIG STORY W/ JOHN GIBSON
The Secret War Against President Bush
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192673,00.html

I’m in a meeting at work now. Almost disrupted it with uncontrolled laughter when I saw the story come up.

I’m sure this has been said…

But didn’t the president recently admit to leaking classified information from the NIE?

So the difference is…

I’m sure some helpful Republican can tell me what’s so fucking different between what the president did and what this poor bastard who got fired today did.

Oh. That’s right. IOKIYAR.

Zennurse,
Overcoming the juvenile sense of humor thing. It dies hard,but I am working on it constantly.

zenn: The vast majority of the conferences I’ve attended allocate space for breakouts proportional to anticipated attendance, without a signup feature for each panel or group. I expect they will allocate a lot of space for that panel as it should be quite popular.

margaret – Its ok, she is just on vacation!

Leslie 13: To add to Mary’s response – I haven’t the details on front of me but I’ve always assumed that the Ryan case went very much federal when those children died in fiery crash in a state other than Illinois, the state in which the license was granted. Interstate transport is regulated by DOT. That accident would have opened a DOT investigation which would have led to the DOJ investigation. Once the feds start poking around, it’s Katie bar the door.

Note to those inclined to bribery and fraud: Make sure your efforts and actions are contained within state boundaries. That includes secondary, tertiary and all things related. Otherwise, expect the FBI to knock on the door, unannounced, on a Saturday morning.

Margaret: When Christy gets back from her Disneyworld family vacation, she will be back in action. I’m not sure of the exact day, but she’ll be back by Monday, I think.

# 16 kurotenshi says:
April 21st, 2006 at 3:55 pm

“If you have any type of clearance you are subject to polygraph.

You might want to check out the National Defense Authorization Act for 2004…”

Could you be more specific? I’m looking at the NDAA and don’t see any title relative to clearance. Can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

ohdave says:

Oh. That’s right. IOKIYAR

or IOKIYARP

(P=President)

TJ–

The correct procedure is to report the supposed wrongdoing to one’s superiors. Which is the great conundrum of whistleblower protection. What good does it do to announce wrongdoing to the people engaging in it?

As for how frequently polygraphing happens (and how often it is used punitively), just google “Mark S. Zaid” and “polygraph.”

It’s funny, in a way. Virtually every statute related to secrecy says that the government shall not use the tools of secrecy to hide law-breaking, but when someone points out that law-breaking, they are singled out for punishment. See Sibel Edmonds.

Thanks, siun and Pach, just knew I’d get an answer here. Sorry to everyone else for such an OT issue. Nursing conferences are strict about this stuff sometimes, so just trying to follow the rules.

My concern about this is that while we see the issue very clearly, it will not be pushed in Congress. You know, that oversight thingie they used to do? Looks like a great Dem issue to me.

They said on CNN the person confessed to leaking the information after failing the polygraph.

Mary and Hilde, thanks for the responses; just trying to get a clearer idea of how the state/federal jurisdictional lines are drawn. I knew there had to be federal statutes involved, but in the case of both state and federal laws being applicable, I wasn’t sure how those decisions were made.

I’d love to write a short story or do an indie flick where George, Dick, Karl, Don, Condi and a bunch of others end up in one of those little secret prisons. Something perhaps Rod Serling could appreciate. And I know right where I’d put this clandestine demon prison spa for political devils, Yuma Arizona; with no air conditioning, martini’s or cocktail weenies. I am very, very angry at the Bush cabal of cadres for what fiendish things they have done. And will do.

Time for me to go. I get to see my granddaughter on her first birthday tonight. Cute little thing. If Bobby G. Pops in,tell him we wish the best for his mother.Hope GSD is having fun in Rhode Island.I wonder if EPU is still pontificatatin’ on the old thread still….. Have a great weekend everyone.

OT but Plame. Seems like we have an answer on the “leaked letter†front. Despite right wing pundits to the contrary or misleading news items, it wasn’t so much the Prosecutor that got (was the word I saw “spanked†or was that some FDLer’s fantasy *g*) a reading of the Riot Act. Libby’s team fessed up that they did the release. “We released the Letter to the press in good faith, and we do not believe that such a disclosure breached either LCrR 57.7(b)(1) or the Court’s instructions regarding contacts with the press. Below, we describe the factual background pertaining to the release of the Letter.â€

Prosecutor re: Show Cause – Whatever you think best Judge Walton. “Because the government will follow the requirements of any such order whether or not one is entered, the Special Counsel takes no position regarding whether this Court should enter an order pursuant to LCrR 57.7(c).â€

Actually – I can kind of see the point on the letter, IF it had been done openly.

BTW – it looks like the hearings that were scheduled have been set back to 5-5, and the Show Cause responses were just filings (Gov’s made by Bonamici) so ? Maybe Fitzgerald *could* have met with the GJ, it just seems he would have to have “low profile†down to science.

Jeralyn has just posted the Fitz and Libby filings in response to the judge’s threat of a gag order.

http://talkleft.com/

Recent Poll result- WP

As you may know, a new law in Massachusetts would require all residents to have health insurance. Low-income residents would get state subsidies to help pay insurance premiums, but everyone would pay something for health services. The plan would penalize people without any insurance and charge fees to employers who don’t provide coverage. . . .”
MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Do you support or oppose this plan?”
NON-MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS: “Would you support or oppose this plan in your state?”

.

Support Oppose Unsure
% % %
ALL adults 55 41 5
Democrats 58 37 5
Independents 58 39 3
Republicans 49 46 5

Keith is covering the CIA whistleblower story now….

—

BullGoose 36

Thanks for reminding me to thank Jane for the headline.

zennurse – thanks for clicking the contract link. I find it ‘medicinal’. Glad you do too.

From Josh

This morning the Orlando Sentinel reports that meal may have cost “may have cost as much as $2,800.”

And catch this passage …

In her interview Wednesday, Harris acknowledged for the first time that Wade had paid for the dinner at Citronelle, reversing a statement from her congressional spokeswoman earlier this year.
But in the interview, Harris also said her campaign had, at some point, “reimbursed” the restaurant.

When asked how she could have reimbursed a business that was owed no money — Wade paid the bill that evening — she abruptly ended the interview and walked off.

Her spokesman called back an hour later and asked a reporter not to publish anything Harris had said Wednesday night about the dinner.

On Thursday, Harris’ campaign released a two-paragraph statement that differed from her explanation a day earlier. It stated that Harris thought her “campaign would be reimbursing” her share of the meal but later found out that hadn’t happened.

To resolve any questions, the statement said, “I have donated to a local Florida charity $100 which will more than adequately compensate for the cost of my beverage and appetizer.”

Harris spokesman Chris Ingram said the donation was made Thursday to Global Dominion Impact

Blub – First Christmas, then President Bush. No wonder the military is having trouble recruiting – all those “other” wars are competing for personnel.

Harris is fuckin nuts.

More plame news. Libby lawyeres admit leaking to media.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014631.html

Good point about Bush saying he had leaked.

IIRC, his statement about Plame leak was that anyone in the Admin/WH found to have leaked would be fired.

umm…

“Mr. President, I have a question…”

zennurse – info on polygraph policy for dod.

Subtitle E—Codifications, Definitions, and Technical
Amendments
SEC. 1041. CODIFICATION AND REVISION OF DEFENSE COUNTERINTELLIGENCE
POLYGRAPH PROGRAM AUTHORITY.
(a) CODIFICATION.—(1) Chapter 80 of title 10, United States
Code, is amended by inserting after section 1564 the following
new section:
‘‘§ 1564a. Counterintelligence polygraph program
‘‘(a) AUTHORITY FOR PROGRAM.—The Secretary of Defense may
carry out a program for the administration of counterintelligence
polygraph examinations to persons described in subsection (b). The
program shall be based on Department of Defense Directive 5210.48,
dated December 24, 1984.
‘‘(b) PERSONS COVERED.—Except as provided in subsection (c),
the following persons whose duties involve access to information
that has been classified at the level of top secret or designated
as being within a special access program under section 4.4(a) of
Executive Order 12958 (or a successor Executive order) are subject
to this section:
‘‘(1) Military and civilian personnel of the Department of
Defense.
‘‘(2) Personnel of defense contractors.
VerDate 11-MAY-2000 08:29 Dec 10, 2003 Jkt 029139 PO 00136 Frm 00217 Fmt 6580 Sfmt 6581 E:PUBLAWPUBL136.108 APPS10 PsN: PUBL136
117 STAT. 1608 PUBLIC LAW 108–136—NOV. 24, 2003
‘‘(3) A person assigned or detailed to the Department of
Defense.
‘‘(4) An applicant for a position in the Department of
Defense.
‘‘(c) EXCEPTIONS FROM COVERAGE FOR CERTAIN INTELLIGENCE
AGENCIES AND FUNCTIONS.—This section does not apply to the
following persons:
‘‘(1) A person assigned or detailed to the Central Intelligence
Agency or to an expert or consultant under a contract
with the Central Intelligence Agency.
‘‘(2) A person who is—
‘‘(A) employed by or assigned or detailed to the
National Security Agency;
‘‘(B) an expert or consultant under contract to the
National Security Agency;
‘‘(C) an employee of a contractor of the National Security
Agency; or
‘‘(D) a person applying for a position in the National
Security Agency.
‘‘(3) A person assigned to a space where sensitive cryptographic
information is produced, processed, or stored.
‘‘(4) A person employed by, or assigned or detailed to,
an office within the Department of Defense for the collection
of specialized national foreign intelligence through reconnaissance
programs or a contractor of such an office.
‘‘(d) OVERSIGHT.—(1) The Secretary shall establish a process
to monitor responsible and effective application of polygraph
examinations within the Department of Defense.
‘‘(2) The Secretary shall make information on the use of polygraphs
within the Department of Defense available to the congressional
defense committees.
‘‘(e) POLYGRAPH RESEARCH PROGRAM.—The Secretary shall
carry out a continuing research program to support the polygraph
examination activities of the Department of Defense. The program
shall include—
‘‘(1) an on-going evaluation of the validity of polygraph
techniques used by the Department;
‘‘(2) research on polygraph countermeasures and anticountermeasures;
and
‘‘(3) developmental research on polygraph techniques,
instrumentation, and analytic methods.’’.
(2) The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter
is amended by inserting after the item relating to section 1564
the following new item:
‘‘1564a. Counterintelligence polygraph program.’’.
(b) CONFORMING REPEAL.—Section 1121 of the National Defense
Authorization Act for Fiscal Years 1988 and 1989 (10 U.S.C. 113
note), is repealed.

http://www.defenselink.mil/dod…..04NDAA.pdf

Redstate Quote re: this leak

“Where is the White House, Republican Leadership and others pointing out the simple fact that this CIA employee broke the law and broke an oath to protect classified information. This is not about freedom of the press, this is about a person that broke the law, plain and simple. The Federal Prison has a room reserved for this person and that room needs to be filled soon. It’s not about the politics, it’s about a system of trust, and someone who has broken the trust placed in them.

When you are granted access to US government secrets, you make and Oath to protect these secrets, you give a promise to protect information which those above you have deemed to be interst of National security and must be protected. You don’t get to choose which secrets you agree with or don’t, political aspects of those secrets you agree with or disagree with, it’s about trust.

I hope to see a Republican Senator, the CIA director and other administration officials hammering the heck out of this issue of those who are privileged to be trusted to protect the secrets of this country breaking the trust this nation has shown them.”

Might want to talk to your Fearless Leader about those laws, buddy.

ohdave, Bush stated that he leaked declassified parts of the NIE, because he “wanted the American people to know the truth.” The WH stated that Clusterfuck Bush left the details of disseminating the leaked declassifed parts of the NIE to DeadEye Cheney. IIRC NIE contained nothing about Plame.

“(c) EXCEPTIONS FROM COVERAGE FOR CERTAIN INTELLIGENCE
AGENCIES AND FUNCTIONS.—This section does not apply to the
following persons:
‘‘(1) A person assigned or detailed to the Central Intelligence
Agency or to an expert or consultant under a contract
with the Central Intelligence Agency.”

So my reading is that she was targeted and this was not a routine screening, which is dubious anyway given the testimony of Mark Zaid. It looks like CIA and NSA are exceptions and Defense is the area where screening is the rule.

Thought occurs: Is this what the call a ‘Friday night’ dump? We’re all over it, and the wingnuts (bless’em) too.

Everybody else having BBQ’s on a fine spring eve.

I guess the Sunday Talking Heads will be the next stop. Unless WH is averse to the pub.

New here.

OT

You guys seem serious for a Fri nite.
Not a bad thing and no cut intended.

What’s everybody drinking?

Or is this a ‘dry’ blog?

:)

In McCarthy’s final position at the CIA, she was assigned to its Office of Inspector General, looking into allegations the CIA was involved in torture at Iraqi prisons, according to a former colleague who spoke on condition of anonymity because the case is under investigation.

snip

However, a law enforcement official confirmed there was a criminal leaks investigation under way, but it did not involve the fired CIA officer.

snip

Another said there had been no referral from the CIA involving the fired employee, normally a precursor to a criminal investigation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..e/cia_leak

leaks, leaks, and more leaks! lol

It’s Nixon (plumbers) redux with Mary McCarthy. The Bush guys never got over the “liberal crucifixion” of Tricky Dick (Pentagon Papers), just like they can’t get over the left’s “responsibility” for the “loss” of Vietnam (hence, Iraq). These unsavory characters are so unclever and transparent. McCarthy is a hero!

OT/Zennurse, re: the Vegas conference. My husband suggested that I go–knowing how I love to read all the liberal blogs…But as a stay-at-home Mom of two, I’m not that active in the comments. Anyway, I feel unsure about going–would love your input…I do think the panel on Plamegate with Christy and Jane and Froomkin and Emptywheel will be so amazing.

Oklahoma kiddo

It’s Nixon (plumbers) redux with Mary McCarthy

The whole damn Bush admin is Nixon redux.
Some of the same guys, same shit.

.

Ms. Hamsher, as many fine comments above show, yes, polygraph stuff can be used alot in various security areas. They’re used in gov’t agencies as well as in companies doing sensitive work for the gov’t (usually defense contract related). Ok, so she’s been fired. A referral to DOPJ for prosecution? Well…..
it can happen. Some issues: a polygraph result is usually not permitted in a criminal prosecution. One person above wrote that this gal went ahead and admitted her deeds after she failed the exam. NOT smart on her part. Did the lads at Langley read her the usual rights before questioning her after she flunked? Another issue…suppose DOJ does prosecute. This lady is now a criminal defendant. She has an absolute right to testify. What would she testify to? MORE bad stuff about these prisons?? Hmmmm!!!1 Much of what I write is better for Ms. Smith to look at. My advice to the Company: let it go. You’ve outed her, fired her, stripped her clearance, she’s probably lost any type of pension interests, and she now has one hell of a LOUSY black mark on her resume’. Enough. Let it go. A criminal prosecution might just bring more “blow-back” upon the WH via whatever this woman would testify to.
Ghostman

agave,
Welcome.
I bet I know your favorite drink…I toured a place that made tequila, or maybe mezcal, in the 60s in Mexico. (What a place to take a group of Girl Scouts!)

Jane S, it was that panel that decided it for me, because I normally lead a pretty quiet, secluded life. I think you should go if you are 1) interested in moving progressive issues forward, 2) want to meet a bunch of people who think the way you do and 3) want to have a fun time. I don’t think the conference is just for bloggers or for people who comment a lot- I don’t have any sense it’s a personality contest. I have read Crashing the Gate and consider this an opportunity to learn and understand more about what needs to happen in the upcoming elections and beyond in terms of progressive issues and agenda. I imagine Pach and siun will expand on this a bit if they’re here, siun is working in media relations stuff for it, and Pach….well, Pach is everywhere.

It is quite a compliment to be personally asked about this and I thank you for it most kindly.
Go to the site and check it out, there’s a list of sessions and speakers which might convince and excite you as it did me. It’s relatively inexpensive and if your husband is willing to do peanut duty, I’d say go for it. You have to start somewhere and take it from a mom of 20 somethings, I wish I had done it earlier.

Mark (44), the story was “leaked” to Andrea Mitchell.

TJ 45 What I want to know is, what is the acceptible way for a government employee to report illegal government actions or Geneva Conventions violations when his supervisors are actively engaged in the illegal activity, and when whistleblower protection is not available?

Well, one thing they are supposed to be able to do is to go to their department’s Office of the Inspector General. So, one the “connect the dot†tidbit that the sources are leaving fairly unaddressed is where McCarthy reputedly worked at CIA.

Are you guessing?

Did you guess it?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12423825/

“Intelligence sources tell NBC News the accused officer, Mary McCarthy, worked in the CIA’s inspector general’s office . . .â€

Rest of post in next entry bc if I do more than one link my comment gets held.

It’s Friday and I need to sleep for my 2 twelves as usual, so I’ll say farewell and everyone have a great weekend. I have missed the info re: Bobby G’s mother, but will look for it tomorrow and send him extra blessings. Remember to send happy wedding energy to egregious whose daughter has her nuptials tomorrow. Always healing energy to Mrs. K8.

What a beautiful living room we get to share, so fortunate.

The Secret War on Christmas, Easter, Christianity, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, President Bush.

I’m now an html master.

Hurray !!!!

Thanks for the link, Zennurse (I think, oops).

Post is awaiting clearance from moderator….

A few thoughts regarding the general puzzlement about the differences between Rove and the fired leaker.
If I recall correctly the essential element in the booklet that comes with the confidential statement is the element of disclosure of info known to be classified. The entire problem with Plamegate is that nobody knew or mentioned what her covert status was. It simply wasn’t an issue to the people involved. Ergo, no crime.

I won’t name names, but I think this case shows how appallingly wrong it was to tell us that we didn’t have to worry about things like misuse of NSLs, bc there would always be a “brave FBI agent†around to blow the whistle if it was mishandled. Didn’t sit well with me then; you can guess how I feel now. How brave do you expect them to be as our only defense against illegal government activities, and especially when DOJ has determined that NOTHING is illegal, if the President wants it.

Here is a quickie summary to why whistleblowers are not so protected by the OIG process in “intel†fields. I guess, where whistleblowers are PART OF the OIG, it’s even a bit sadder.

National Security, Whistleblowers and IG Independence

One reason national security whistleblowers often do not go to their agency Inspector Generals is because they fear that the IGs are not independent enough from the agency they are meant to oversee. This, however, isn’t just a fear, it’s reality. National security-related IGs are less independent because the head of the agency can easily stop an investigation or audit. As the Congressional Research Service report “Statutory Offices of Inspector General: Establishment and Evolution” (pdf) states:
Under the IG Act, as amended, the heads of only five agencies—the Departments of Defense, Homeland Security, Justice, and Treasury, plus the U.S. Postal Service—may prevent the IG from initiating, carrying out, or completing an audit or investigation, or issuing a subpoena, in order to preserve national security interests or to protect on-going criminal investigations, among other specified reasons. When exercising this power, the department head must transmit an explanatory statement for such action to the House Government Reform Committee, the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, and other appropriate congressional committees and subcommittees within 30 days. Under the CIA IG Act, the Director of Central Intelligence may similarly prohibit the CIA IG from conducting investigations, audits, or inspections and, when doing so, must notify the House and Senate Intelligence Committees of the reasons for such action within 7 days. [all emphasis POGO’s]

Will Fitzgerald go the way of Archibald Cox in the next episode? Polygraphs are convincing to Scientologists and those various agencies. For most of us civilians they are inadmissible as evidence but can be used to show innocence if one is confident enough not to be made nervous.

To me the most salient point of the current development is the anonymity of the accused. Dana Priest we know of. She’s about as informed as anyone about everything about using the military to conduct foreign policy. Her eye has been on the ball and she’s friendly with some of those retired generals who don’t believe that killing the rank and file and keeping their misgivings about the war silent is their job.

It is plain that Bush and his other scoundrels have handpicked someone else, Anon, whose oath to the Constitution runs deeper than any oath to the Presidency. The CIA isn’t sworn to protect the president as Nixon learned the hard way. Everything about bush is preemptive. Rumor has it he has pre-emptive orgasms as opposed to premature ones.

Bush and his goons are trying to use the same tired argument that somehow Joe Wilson committed treason by calling Bush on the lie about Hussein having a line on weapons grade uranium. Bush and his goons are on the run now. They are maximizing the use of smoke and mirrors but they aren’t so good at it. They’ve done enough damage to the nation and the world in the past five years plus. Whoever let it out that they have been going too far in the torturing the wrong guy department, has done all humanity a service.

There is a time when the Curse of the Oval Office starts to outweigh all other curses. My plan is to give money to democratic senatorial canditates in other states from now through autumn. God help us all if we keep getting our orders from the Central Unintelligence Network Team of Stooges that work for GW.

Anon is one of my favorite poets, and God bless him for the leak.
Bush is in California telling us if our levees leak and we want the Army Corps to come in we’ll have to pay for it ourselves. He’s a cheap bastard too, besides being a cheating snake! I’m on Anon’s side in this next theater of checks and imbalances.

link to the POGO article I copied above

Argh
http://pogoblog.typepad.com/po…..index.html

there!

Zennurse–thank you for the encouragement. Through this horrible fall of our country, I have found great comfort in the energy, enthusiasm and brilliance of places like FDL! I’ll take a closer look at the particulars.

Also waiting for moderation is this nugget…

BRUSSELS, April 20 — The European Union’s antiterrorism chief told a hearing today that he has not been able to prove that secret C.I.A. prisons existed in Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04…..ition.html

Another myth bites the dust?

“I don’t think the conference is just for bloggers or for people who comment a lot”
I completely agree. The more people that actually show up, the more evidence of widespread support that Froomkin can take back to the WaPo.

Margot

Tequila? Not so much anymore.

In the 60’s?
Cool.

You might be as young as I am.

.

Even if Rove should lose his security clearance, won’t Bush just claim it’s his prerogative as commander in chief to restore it?

Sorry for the mulitple posts and failure to close codes. I’m just so angry I’m not paying attention very well.

Hot Story at Raw Story:
Lawyer: Rice leaked defense info to AIPAC lobbyist

The whole point of a polygraph exam is to coerce confessions.

Re : Mary O. McCarthy

If this woman is a career civil servant, she is not flush. Unlike Irving, I dobt she spent any years in lucrative private practice representing multi Billionaires like Marc Rich.

If Team Irving needs a defense fund to combat legitimate charges, how much more does Team MAry O. desperately need a defense fund to stave off the witch hunt.

This woman is a patriot. She did what you wanted. She put her career and her liberty on the line to blow the whistle. How many times have I hears this group pray for someone like her?

She did what we wanted. Now is the time for us to have her back.

I sincerely doubt that she can afford a fullmetaljacket criminal defense like the kind Scooter is getting.

Methinks it may be time for the “mary O. legal defense trust fund” What say you all?

if it has been said before,

i’ll say it again!

(tactical maneuver re: epu’d.

note: for best effect, use lots of exclamation marks).

karl rove needs to take a polygraph test!!!!!!!

just like the polygraph test given to Dr. McCarthy.

rove needs to take this test on a series of questions regarding the destruction of the cover of cia covert agent Valerie plame wilson.

and he needs to agree to the release of all polygraph results.

karl rove needs to take a polygraph exam

for political reasons,

not for legal reasons.

the cia can’t fire one leaker of classified info

while the white house coddles another.

president bush can authorize such a polygraph test.

president bush:

authorize a polygraph test of karl christian rove identical in technique and thoroughness to the one administered to cia official dr. mary mccarthty!

and while you are at it, Pres Bush, authorize another for cia director porter goss questioning whether or not dr. mccarthy’s firing was vindictive and ordered by the white house.

#100: good point. One talking point of Dems should be that there is no need for Congress for defense or national security anymore since President gets to interpret or set aside any law whatever that he disagrees with, or is inconvenient, or he deesm troublesome. So, we must simply trust him to make the right decision. That is the unitary executive. Since the proportion of the population who trusts him seems headed towards zero, I think that is a good talking point.

Clearly the President has claimed power to implicitly and retro-actively, and reversibly classify, unclassify, whatever unspecified portions of whatever reports He thinks wise to do so, then He can retroactively decide that whatever Rove did concerned something that He retoractively decides now should have been unclassified. Divine appointment has its perks.

So, clearly, no one has a case against him.

Clearly…

All hail Mary McCarthy! Let’s build a monument!

Let’s start a legal defense fund for her!

Zenn dear – sweet dreams!

and Jane S – come to Vegas! esp since you are a mom. Like Zenn, my two are 20somethings and for too long I stuck close to home and missed the chance to recharge my own soul. I’ll be there the whole time – busy with media work but very happy to share a drink or such with any FDLers – commenter or not. So come along – it will be fun and we’ll all learn a lot! (and you’ll return to momhood recharged)

Looseheadprop – great idea! defense fund! yes!

Once again it’s a woman who blows the whistle. Makes me proud.

curious, thanks for the comment. Forbes picked up the AP version:
“Lawyer: Rice Leaked Defense Information
By MATTHEW BARAKAT , 04.21.2006, 07:57 PM
“Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice leaked national defense information to a pro-Israel lobbyist in the same manner that landed a lower-level Pentagon official a 12-year prison sentence, the lobbyist’s lawyer said Friday.
Prosecutors disputed the claim…..”
http://www.forbes.com/home/fee…..88551.html

Sally: Once again it’s a woman who blows the whistle. Makes me proud.

Don’t it just?!

Thank you Siun. I think that I posted looking for this kind of encouragement. One reason that I felt connected to FDL was that my littlest guy is the same age as Christy’s little girl (I think)–he is 2 1/2. So I felt inspired by her activism combined with her love for her little girl.

NYT…

C.I.A. Employee Fired for Alleged Leak

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04…..r=homepage

After writing “The Group”, I always wondered whatever had happened to Mary McCarthy…

re #106:

I have suggested to Sen. Feingold that another alternative to the censure resolution is that the following language be specifically added to all legislation:
“Of course, this legislation does not apply to the president or any members of the Executive Branch acting on his behalf in the capacity of Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.”
Just to make things perfectly clear.

peace,
jim

Jane S,
the time to get involved is now,we all need to heed the call.I’ve got a 5 year old boy.Someday he may turn to me and ask what I did in these dark days.How will we answer?

Sorry for the hit and run, but thought this might be interesting from this AM. Bill Bennett on CNN this am around 9:30, interviewed by John Roberts:

ROBERTS: Let’s talk about your comments earlier this week about the James Risen, Eric Lichtblau of “The New York Times” and Dana Priest at “The Washington Post,” who won Pulitzer Prizes for their work uncovering CIA secret prisons in Europe, and as well, the NSA spying scandal. What were your listeners saying about that this morning?

BENNETT: Well, we had a lot of people weigh in. I said that I wondered whether they deserved the Pulitzer more, or actually more deserving was a subpoena or, perhaps, going to jail. Look, Judy Miller went to jail. And I don’t know why we should treat these folks differently than Judy Miller.

ROBERTS: Yes, but Judy Miller went to — Judy Miller went to jail for contempt of court.

BENNETT: Right. Well, let’s see.

ROBERTS: These people haven’t been charged with contempt of court.

BLITZER: Well, if James Risen is asked, right, or Dana Priest is asked, “Who are your sources?” The people who gave them this information committed a crime, leaked classified information. If they are asked and they do the same thing Judy Miller does, which I expect they would, don’t you?

ROBERTS: Right.

BENNETT: Then they would go to jail.

ROBERTS: But they haven’t been asked yet. They haven’t been asked yet, though.

BENNETT: Well, I don’t know. If they have been asked yet, I assume they will. Then you can change the tense of my remarks but not the substance of them. But there’s also the Espionage Act. The Espionage Act says it is a crime to publish classified information. They did.

ROBERTS: Right. Just real quick before we let you go, what about the idea that — the old — age-old idea that news is what the government doesn’t want you to know?

BENNETT: Well, sure. We had Pete Hoekstra on this morning, the chairman of House Intelligence. He said government should be whacked, government should be criticized. But when you’re talking about security, classified security information at the time of war, about a program that may help us defend ourselves, you’ve got to — you’ve got to respect the government’s wishes on that one, I think.

ROBERTS: Fodder for a lot of discussion in the coming days.

Near the end http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRA…..tm.04.html

Hey Jim,hows it going?

JaneS – Moms make the best activists! and your kids will be so proud over the years that you’re involved in such important movements.

Bravo to your husband for his support!

I think lhp is right about a defense fund. Goss is just craven. It seems as if McCarthy could possibly seal the deal that there were lies upon lies upon lies, but I can’t imagine they will push her to where it comes out. Everything will get gagged and sealed.

I wonder, now, about the Harper’s story. I thought at the time that the worry about “subpoenas†etc. seemed misplaced, except for whistleblowers (who Goss had already said he was after). However, if they want to go after someone who was in the inspector general’s office, there may be quite a lot to come out that I can’t imagine they want. She might have the kind of info that would, in another country that hasn’t had Gonzales and Bush and a “constituion free” Justice department, make people worry about War Crimes Act charges. I think their worry is misplaced, though, bc there is no one at DOJ with any credibility to assert those charges, given that DOJ is on paper expressly authorizing all of it and prtty much no one took any public stand against any of it, either as it was being formulated, or when it bc public knowledge (excepting Kris on the NSA program).

Back to point – she probably will need a defense fund. Maybe some Citizens groups might get involved if she wants? ACLU? CREW? I don’t really know bc I don’t know their mandates and I would guess she’ll want to have private defense. One thought occurs, have her file fast to run for office somewhere and have a PAC. Every Dem can show where they really stand by having their PACs contribute or raise funds for her PAC. Then she can pull a Delay and withdraw, but use the PAC funds for defense fees. . . .

I’m guessing there won’t be any charges pursued by DOJ against anyone, like oh, say Tenet or Goss, for improperly classifying illegal govt activities and definitely no Indep. Prosec with this Congress. Or offer of immunity for testimony (the North route) with this Congress.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

BTW – rawstory has out that “Dr. Rice†( who has managed, inexplicably to me, to keep high approval ratings) also leaked to AIPAC and that the recent Safavian case filings make it seem pretty darn likely that Ney lied when investigated.

DMM & Siun:

Amen to that and thanks for all the encouragement! I put the Margaret Mead quote on my 6 year old daughter’s bulletin board:

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world: indeed it’s the only thing that ever has!”

I am turning in–may the Fitz be with you all.

new thread — those who can’t win fairly…. cheat

FWIW: Abramoff-bribed corrupt Bob Ney is the man who sheparded HAVA (Help America Vote Act) thru Congress with its emphasis on electronic voting. It’s causing all kinds of havoc in Indiana…half of our counties may have to use paper ballots in the primaries in 10 days because of the screwups with electronic voting…

Just saw this on Buzzflash. It’s another leak.
Lawyer: Rice Allegedly Leaked Defense Info
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..48_pf.html
So what do you suppose will happen to Condi?

“All leakers are equal but some leakers are more equal than others.” G. Orwell

“Is this how it always works? I’d very much like to know.

Because I have a leak I’d like to report….”

Bwahahahahaha……….

There are a couple of misconceptions here about Bush’s authority to declassify documents.

1) Bush cannot willy-nilly change the security level (Confidential, Secret, Top Secret) of an individual. His authority to declassify pertains to documents not people. He may certainly recommend that someone who works for him be given security clearance, but the FBI has to do due diligence (a drawn out process) to get security clearance from that person.

2) By the same token Bush cannot declassify the operative status of a NOC, which Valerie Plame was. Again, Bush’s declassification authority pertains to documents, not individuals. So whatever Bush declassified during the push back on Wilson, it was not Plames security status.

Oops! Change “from that person” to “for that person.”

“I have a question. Is this standard operating procedure within the government?”

Ans. Your question properly should have been specific to Intelligence organizations. In that regard, after hard won experience, the answer is yes. If your not willing to submit to a random, unannounced poly, don’t apply. If you do apply and are offered a job you sign your understanding and acceptance. You don’t like, go check out at WalMart. Call V. Plame, she will tell you.

As a fat and happy citizen, you should be thankful.

Tweety said “I just got off the phone with Karl Rove. He said your wife is fair game.”

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

Absent cut-and-dried, I’d settle for flayed.

It is my understanding that Non-disclosure agreements are unenforceable with respect to government employees or government contractors because any non-classified information that would be protected by the non-disclosure agreement must be disclosed in response to a FOIA request. Consequently, the government uses classification and security clearances instead of NDAs and confidentiality/trade secrets.

At least this was the explanation I was given when I had to get a security clearance when I worked on several sensitive projects for the USPS. In this case the sensitive information was trade secrets (business performance, processes and financial data) that had been classified so that USPS competitors (FedEx and the like) couldn’t file FOIA’s and get access to it.

I’m not a lawyer, so feel free to correct me if you are a lawyer and are knowledgeable about the subject.

orangejumpsuit wrote: There are a couple of misconceptions here about Bush’s authority to declassify documents.

Thanks for the information but I’m not sure how much weight it’ll carry. Bush himself seems to have lots of serious misconceptions about his authority. Unfortunately, with the present makeup of Congress, whatever Bush misconceives, goes.

—————-
wesgpc wrote, #100: good point…
The first time I read that, my post was #100, his was #106, and he seemed to be replying to mine. Apparently the numbering has changed since then; mine is now #102, his is #108, and what he says about the present #100 comes across as a non sequitur.

What does a whistleblower say when they need to give classified information to a reporter?

Ans: I need to go take a leak.

*****************************************

What does a reporter say after receiving classified information from a whistleblower?

Ans: I just took a leak.

(I didn’t say they would be good jokes.) ;}

If my memory serves me correctly…After Aldrich and Hanssen the gov’t said it would routinely subject agents to polygraph tests….

I do hope they are dumb enough to go after Dana Priest.