Sometimes I get so busy keeping this blog running that I don’t have time to sit back and do what it is that made me fall in love with blogging in the first place: plunk myself down with a cup of tea, a thick stack of documents and a highlighter, a bunch of notebooks and a pile of stickies and some flow charts and proceed to fill up margins with elaborate notes I will never be able to decipher It’s been a while since I had the luxury of that kind of time but every once in a while you just have to have push everything else aside and do it, know what I mean?
So I’m going to enjoy reading the newly released Plame documents tonight — Libby’s subpoenas to Time and Judith Miller, and Time’s Motion to Quash. Jeralyn has the PDFs up as well as analysis of the filings.
Elsewhere on the Fitz front, Buckley Roberts has a very good post over at Kos called "Why the Ryan Verdict Matters." The whole thing is worth reading, but this caught my eye:
Similar to the DeLay excuse, defense attorney Daniel Webb tried to base the defense around the premise that those damn liberals are trying to hamper the government by impeding how it is normally supposed to function. "Pay for play" politics is not how the government is supposed to function and because the corruption has gone unchecked for so many years does not make the process correct. Ryan is notorious in Illinois as a deal maker that both Democrats and Republicans loved. That is only because crooked politicians on both sides of the isle were allowed to dip into the kitty. Today’s guilty verdict on all 22 counts represented the people’s disgust for what passes for "politics as usual" and our condemnation of these crooked practices.
This statement goes for all politicians, not just the abundant corrupt Republicans being indicted these days. Not that it matters, but according to those who work with federal prosecutor Fitzgerald say that his politics are conservative. He isn’t one of those concerned about toeing the political line as he is interested more in cleaning the corruption out of the government and his party. We need to make sure our guys are clean and stay that way too. Blago and Daley, I’m looking at you…
[]
This was an eight year investigation and a seven month trial. The defense is estimated at spending over $20 million defending him. As Collins and Fitzgerald noted, the prosecution was outgunned and outmanned but thanks to the diligent and continually work of their team (a couple who I know personally and are very conservative – not that politics should matter with the law) were able to show indirectly that Ryan was guilty of racketeering, money laundering, tax evasion, and being a general bastard. Sadly, the last count isn’t indictable.
I don’t know about you but I find this story to be a very hopeful one.
Over at the Left Coaster eRiposte has taken off laying waste to the ill-informed and written the post that I’ve been waiting for — his anaysis of the newly released INR memos. As he notes, the Sun’s interpretation is downright weird and appears to have come straight from Barbara Comstock: because every paragraph on the document was stamped "secret," how was Libby to know that Valerie Wilson’s CIA affiliation was any more secret than the rest of the document? (or something). As the premier Niger uranium document historian in the blogosphere his latest is a must-read for those looking to fit the revelations from these documents into the larger story. And over at The Next Hurrah, emptywheel takes her hand to speculating about the heavily redacted portions of the documents where the real juicy bits probably still dwell behind the classification wall (more here).
It’s a regular Plameologist field day.
Related posts:
- Late Night: Praise the Lord for Stupid Sex
- Late Night Pre Halloween Special: Wanna Get Scared? Contemplate What the Hell Glenn Beck Could Say That His Cretin Fans WOULDN’T Believe
- Executive Privilege and the Cheney Interview Documents
- Late Late Night FDL: Teacher’s Pest
- Late Late Night FDL: Tarts and Flowers
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Fitztasm!
Fitz!
(Never thought I’d be quick enough to do that! Am I the only one who’s awake?)
Nope! I think everyone is reading the Plame stuff…
But what’s brewing with Rove, Cheney and the rest of the unindicted co-conspirators? When does the other shoe drop?
Could we have an overview of what to expect and when? (Sort of a Christmas sneak-peek?)
See that? Nobody is EVER satisfied…
We are all addicted to FDL.
“Hello, my name is Jacqrat, and I am addicted to Jane, Christy, and Pach.”
It’s been a very good Plame week. We go for long dry spells and people beg us to write more about the topic, but unfortunatley we can’t just make up the news. It’s rather uncooperative that way, although I know some folks try. So it’s wonderful when we Orca lurches up out of the water for a bit.
Jane, why can’t y’all be more like the tabloids and just MAKE STUFF UP when your audience gets restless and hungry for a morsel? *g*
Crap Teddy it’s even worse than that. The guy at the podium is Rob Grant, head of the Chicago bureau of the FBI. He told me a good Fitz story once but my notes are in Oregon and I think I may have promised him I’d run it by him before I printed it (he didn’t tell me anything OTR). Since I can’t remember I can’t run it. Which is too bad, the timing would have been good.
g’night all….
Good stuff, Jane. As every charge of partisanship against prosecutors is so obviously false (other than Ken Starr, that is), I always have to wonder how many on the right actually believe them. I expect the rank-and-file wingnuts do; that’s who the smears are manufactured for. But how many of the pundit class are spouting the party line, and how many have actually convinced themselves, contrary to all evidence, that it’s true?
I thought the emptywheel post was very interesting (heck, from the Sun article I never picked up on the fact that there were two – albeit “similar” – memos. I’m not much of any kind of ologist I guess.
There’s also a filing from Monday where the Spec. Pros. is seeking a clarification of the judge’s rulings on exparte submissions.
Of paramount importance to the government is its abiity to invoke, in limited situations, a procedure to present a statement or document ex parte to this Court where the government believes the information is not discoverable and even the act of disclosing the specific nature or existence of the information would risk a harm to national security, a violation of grand jury secrecy, or a breach of some other rule of privilege or secrecy.”
OT – looks like after the verdict in the first dog handler case was a slap on the wrist, Gen Miller has decided to testify after all in the next case.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/041806S.shtml
I hope Fitzgerald gets the guilty (which I believe is mostly all of them). I wanna see orange jumpsuits, I wanna see Congressional investigations. For a few, I wanna see trips to the Hague for trial.
here is something interesting via Digby. If it has been posted on FDL previously, sorry, I haven’t had time to read everything.
***
http://www.prospect.org/web/pa…..leId=11401
Vice Squad
They terrorize other government officials, and they’re so secretive that their names aren’t even revealed to a harmless federal employee directory. And they’ve helped ruin the country. Meet Dick Cheney’s staff.
By Robert Dreyfuss
Issue Date: 05.04.06
***
BTW, thanks to FDL, TLC, Emptyheel and No Quarter blog for all the Plameology. As Mary points out, there lots of very important details that a Plame-layman like myself would never notice, and never really understand even if I did notice.
Wasn’t asking for fabrication/speculation, but there was so much talk a few months ago about the new grand jury but with the start of filings on Libby that just vanished.
Is that in suspension because they can only do so much at once, or because it is contingent on the Libby prosecution being brought to a close, or upon another reason?
Really the question was more for an overview from an expert; the minutiae are fascinating and telling, but the orca swims under water as you say, and this one is not at SeaWorld.
Oh, Jane, that is such a tease (laughing). Leaving us dangling with the possiblilty of “more” but we have to wait until you get back to Oregon.
Patience is so not such a virture of mine.
Thanks for the Fitz fix. You are right in that it is either feast or famine.
via raw story (usual caveats: it’s from the Moonie Times):
CIA mines ‘rich’ content from blogs
By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
April 19, 2006
President Bush and U.S. policy-makers are receiving more intelligence from open sources such as Internet blogs and foreign newspapers than they previously did, senior intelligence officials said.
The new Open Source Center (OSC) at CIA headquarters recently stepped up data collection and analysis based on bloggers worldwide and is developing new methods to gauge the reliability of the content, said OSC Director Douglas J. Naquin.
“A lot of blogs now have become very big on the Internet, and we’re getting a lot of rich information on blogs that are telling us a lot about social perspectives and everything from what the general feeling is to … people putting information on there that doesn’t exist anywhere else,” Mr. Naquin told The Washington Times.
“I can’t get into detail of what, but I’ll just say the amount of open source reporting that goes into the president’s daily brief has gone up rather significantly,” Mr. Jardines said. “
…
The OSC uses powerful computers and software technology to “sift” the Internet for valuable intelligence. It also buys information from commercial databases…
14 – The prosecutor is using an existing GJ. They are hearing other matters as well and he spent some time with them initially bringing them up to speed – then things have been very quiet. Likely a lot of it is strategy with the Libby case – Fitzgerald probably has several different strategies on going forward with the GJ that depend on how other things break.
I was interested that, after the “missing” 200+ emails were found, there hasn’t been any hurry to take them to the GJ. I’m thinking that *may* be bc the information in the hard copies recently turned over was not actually *new* to the Prosecutor and his next trip to the GJ may wait until he is ready to ask for other indictments. Someone else will remember this better, but I think that the GJ meets on Weds and Fri. Some of the holdup might also have been Ryan – it has been a pretty MASSIVE case (time, staffing, effort, local importance, etc.) to Fitzgerald’s day job.
wesgpc – thanks for the link. Depressing article. This part has seemed pretty clear for quite awhile:
““Early on, with the detainee issues, the torture issues, even before Abu Ghraib, people [would say] that David Addington is the source of all this stuff,†says a senior national security lawyer in Washington. “This stuff†includes the spectrum of controversial counterterrorism powers, from military tribunals for captured terror suspects, to justifying torture of prisoners, to detention of alleged terrorists without access to courts or counsel, to the legal rationale for ignoring the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in allowing the National Security Agency to spy on Americans. “He believes that in time of war, there is total authority for the president to waive any rules to carry out his objectives,†is how Congresswoman Jane Harman, the intelligence committee’s ranking Democrat, described Addington to The Washington Post.”
I don’t think I’ll be all that happy over orangejumpsuits here and there. It won’t change anything in the end, IMO. DOJ and to a lesser extent the military (all still MO) let us down as a country terribly and there’s no going back and no bandaid litigation that fixes what they broke. On matters like Padilla, and NSA spying, and torture, and “enemy combatants” and ghost detainees and rendition and . . . so many things, not only did the people in the slots where a difference could have been made NOT put down their foot, they proof read the memos to pretty it all up; they went around the country making sales pitches on Patriot Act and NSLs and gagging libraries and adopting the public pretense that there was not quite a bit more going on — and when the more came out, those who might claim they “didn’t know” then, never stood up and resigned and gave any moral credentials to protest.
As a result, the country yawned, said “the lawyers ok’ed it all” and the country became a PUBLIC state sponsors of torture and a PUBLIC violator of over half the Bill of Rights and not a peep from ANYONE in DOJ, except praise, support, and briefings on why it is OK to torture, not just in the abstract, but in the specifics of GITMO. DOJ “prosecutors” who will moralize on how they, unlike defense lawyers, do not “have” to represent the bad guys have willingly become the front line of assault on the Consitution and have unblinkingly argued before Congress, in the court of public opinion, and before Judges on the bench in favor of unfettered acts of criminality by the government, going one better than most defense counsel, who at least have the grace to argue over the facts of whether or not their client DID kidnap and torture and primarily skip the “it’s legal to act like a criminal if your client is a really important criminal” approach.
That is something that changes a country, top down, and a conviction for obstruction here or there that may or may not get pardoned later, doesn’t make me smile and think it is “all better.” Meanwhile, we have cases that the Sup. Ct is turning down (for now at least) where it would boggle your mind several years ago that such a case would ever be brought involving these United States.
War sucks and you will always have atrocities in war. No way around it, but to have the top military and DOJ personnel strategize and implement torture as an official ‘embraced’ policy, is way too demoralizing for a Karl Rove smackdown to make you feel scales got balanced somewhere.
I’m not even sure I trust myself on what is just overwhelming dislike v. what is “fair” when it comes to any of this anymore. Let’s see, compare and contrast, Martha Stewart v. torturing a POW by suffocation over a period of days until one day he dies and tell me which one would be 60 days house arrest? Baseball steroid use v. soldier after solider after soldier beating a cab driver until he dies and tell me which one involves “too many people” to actually be investigated? Pellicano v. Ashcoft/Gonzales?
I’ll say Fitzgerald seems to be a very sharp, very tough, prosecutor but by and large the whole system doesn’t get much enthusiasm from me anymore. Fitzgerald has the Saleh case, where they are relying in part on what are likely torture derived statements, UK is now pursuing a case to provide immunity to Saudis for torturing UK citizens (yep – you heard that right – the Crown’s case is for immunity to other nationals that abuse British citizens) and no one in Justice has even raised an eyebrow over the recent statements that we may hold some of the “determined by the Executive branch to be” *really bad guys* pretty much forever, without ever getting around to the trial or tribunal phase.
The case is a nice distraction from how many things suck so badly, but Libby locked away won’t make me feel any better, bc the instituional failure of Justice and Military are not going to be addressed, ever, period, end of story. That means as a country, we are a product of a failed system being run by the people who insured its failure. Yippee. /rant& b*tching over
all of this is like collecting a dept a dollar at a time
it doesn’t do any good
really, we need to see the results of this investigation before the president starts world war 3
and we need to see the level of his controll before the electronic voting machimes steal the congressional records
libby’s team is doing it right, to keep the president in power long enough till the eleiction can be stolen
The NYT editorial, ‘ A bad leak’ suggest’s that the transcripts of the Bush/Cheney interviews must now be released and that the Phase 2 investigation be speeded up and released.
I agree. Bush has been outed now as the leaker -in-chief – Greg Palast has a good take on this aspect of Yellowgate. I don’t see why these transcripts can’t be released.
The phase 2 findings are so late that is a scandal in itself. Pat Roberts must have a black belt in stonewalling but he is flirting with obstruction charges if this goes on much longer.
Fitz and those of us who care about the lives of innocent children have to move on this. Too many have been killed and maimed for life already.
The more that comes out the more that will come out later so please Patrick please.
Hit them again.
I want to second (third now i guess after Mary) the article wesgpc linked http://www.prospect.org/web/pa…..leId=11401 . In some sense the story is not new, but it puts a lot of details and vignettes together in a convincing way: the “Cheney Administration” is more than just snark. Keep your eye out for the quote about North Korea–it will make you want to have your paychecks denominated in Swiss francs.
whoa Mary,
I hope you felt better when you woke up this morning. That was some big hunk of depression.
Two points: I know from my days in government that it has always been the case –forever– that there is way more backstory to every event than the public could ever imagine.
Just because you didn’t know that bad things happened during prior administrations, didn’t mean they didn’t happen.
That being said, this administraion is so brazen it doesn’t even bother to hide some of it’s deprecations.
Second point: Things tend to be cyclic. Things get really really bad, a tipping point it reached, outraged citizens (outraged elites) finally get off the stick and do something about it and, for a while, the pendulem swings in the other direction; until it goes too far the other way. Then the cycle repeats itself in reverse.
I know when you have already gone over the tipping point and you are waiting for the rest of public opion to join you there, it’s very frustrating and demoralizing. But it will come.
Just keep the important stories alive and on the front burner. Don’t let them go down the memory hole. Don’t let things slide.
I saw a wire service report that the FBI is trying to get it’s hands on 50 years of Jack Anderson’s files, so it can sanitize them before they are made available to the public at a university library.
Anderson’s estate is resisting, thank heaven. This needs to be front burnered. It may require fundraising for an Anderson files defense fund.
There is plenty that we can do to make things better. Actually, there is so much to do,it’s hard to chose sometimes where best to put your time.
Just doing what you do here, helps keep the flame from dying out.
On the other hand, everyone here seems to forget that there is no indictment of Libby involving Plame at all. Zip, zero, nada.
In addition, should there actually be any indictments regarding leaks, the NSA leaks will have to be prosecuted as well. For all the bluster that Plame was a NOC, Fitz hasn’t backed it up. Meanwhile the NSA leak was real ongoing and at least partially compromised. In short, it was a real crime, not an imaginary one.
Lastly, I remind you all that that Joe Wilson’s report was considered supportive of the contention that Saddam WAS looking for more yellowcake than he already possessed, contrary to his published views.
Kind of like Fitz having to reword some of his work to fit the actual facts. Heh.
Punaise #16 re Bush using intel from blogs: I don’t doubt it for a second. But as for using the info he finds, it is probably more like learning what they have to counter in the next news cycle. Since blogs are ahead of the news cycle (left leaning ones anyway), reading blogs like this (Hi Bush blog minders) keeps the spin doctors also ahead of the cycle.
Anytime we organize they are already planning the pushback.
Good Morning GrandmaJ – was wondering after you and yours just yesterday – your point about the news cycles is a good one and it’s something I asseume has been going on for a while.
Thanks for showing up, thought I was going to have to have my coffee with the Seargent At Arms of The Little Pee Pee Club above
guess we should tell Christy and Jane they can take a few more days off as Encyclopedia Brown here has solved the case -
shooter242:
if what you say is true, why have they all (the white house) had to lie about it for three years? Your entire premise is illogical.
There’s a nice timeline of the Ryan scandal at http://www.chicagotribune.com/…..slocal-utl (up through the governor’s indictment.)
Worth noting: the investigation began 12 years ago, and the first guilty plea was on the “unrelated charges” of two DMV employees exchanging commercial drivers licenses for cash. It ended with the governor of the state convicted on 22 counts of racketeering, tax evasion, and conspiracy for his massive bribery operation.
I lived in Illinois for much of the middle part of the investigation. It looked a lot like Plame. You knew from day one where it was headed, and despite all the protests from the Governor’s office that all the charges showed “no underlying crime”, every day brought the story one step closer to the one true crime at the top. Just sayin’ .
Jane-
“you just have to have push everything else aside and do it, know what I mean†I do, and we appreciate you for it and hope you never grow tired of the good fight, not to be confused with a good leak. Thanks, I can’t say it enough.
21 shooter242 says:
April 19th, 2006 at 4:34 am
On the other hand, everyone here seems to forget that there is no indictment of Libby involving Plame at all. Zip, zero, nada.
incorrect, every charge against libby involves plame…every one…each one…all of them
In addition, should there actually be any indictments regarding leaks, the NSA leaks will have to be prosecuted as well.
incorrect, each indictment can stand by itself, nothing needs other indictments to go forward, sorry
For all the bluster that Plame was a NOC, Fitz hasn’t backed it up. Meanwhile the NSA leak was real ongoing and at least partially compromised. In short, it was a real crime, not an imaginary one.
incorrect, he has backed it up and made it crystal clear that plame was undercover, it was the very cia that initiated the investigation and it is not denyed by the whitehouse…exactly where do you do your reading?..you are having some serious trouble with the facts
you need some other sources
Lastly, I remind you all that that Joe Wilson’s report was considered supportive of the contention that Saddam WAS looking for more yellowcake than he already possessed, contrary to his published views.
no, it wasn’t, it was exactly the opposite, however the whitehouse took a single line out of context to try to conivince shallow minded people of the reverse…this trick works on some people…you among them
Kind of like Fitz having to reword some of his work to fit the actual facts. Heh.
hehe
you are looking in teh mirror I suppose
me to me #27 –
nice rebuttal, but could you use italics instead of bold?
Feed not the trolls…
21 shooter242
Must we remind you no one is above the law?
To contort otherwise puts you firmly in the Hate America camp.
Why do you hate america?
You guys don’t want to miss another dumb and dishonest Post editorial, do you? See today’s paper. At least this one is signed … by Laird and Pursley. I have left my comments (below) at the Post blog. Just to let ‘em know I care.
—–
Yet another dumb and dishonest WP editorial this morning. At least Laird and Pursley signed their names to the piece of tripe they produced.
They start from the clearly fallacious premise that this is the first time these generals have made their opinions known — that they should have spoken up through the chain of command in the Pentagon while they were on active duty.
Except they did. And they made it clear that they had done so when they finally spoke publicly.
And when they did follow the usual channels, they were treated like idiot stepchildren by the arrogant civilian leadership at the Pentagon. A leadership that has demonstrated an indifference bordering on contempt for those who are risking their lives for this country every day, the uniformed soldier. Not to mention the Iraqi civilians who are the “collateral damage” in this criminally mismanaged war effort.
And so we have another editorial that simply ignores inconvenient facts which I guess is only marginally less awful than “A Good Leak” which actually misstated facts to make its case.
prof. foland:
sometimes it’s hard to resist — especially when it sounds like a cry for help.
Me bad …sorry…I fed him
..it was a weak moment
Fitztastic!
A slightly OT rant –
Last night, after a baseball game, a talk radio host came on. The set up sounded reasonable — “GWB refuses to rule out using nukes against Iran” — so I left it on. Then the host jumped into the wing nut offal — “If Iran is a terrorist state, how can we allow them to have the bomb, blah, blah, blah . . .”
At that point, I shut it off as fast as possible — but all night long I was steamed about it, thinking about a call in rebuttal. Same thing this morning — I woke up early, still pissed off about the wing nut crap. Are these people totally insane? (Well, yes — some are insane, some are tools, and a whole bunch are useful idiots. But that’s another story.)
Anyway — our country has been hijacked by the most evil cabal of gangsters on the planet, and yet the MSM and DC Dems treat them with respect. And THAT — is depressing.
[/rant]
OT but….
Why do poeple keep mispelling aisle?
An isle is where I live in the Caribbean.
An aisle is what separates the two sides of the house chamber.
sorry…..
Mary @ 17: Before this administration, there were many informal structures in the government that protected us. Not least was the institutional prerogatives of the cabinet departments. The State Department was the first to go, replaced by the National Security Counsel years ago. Now they are all captured by the White House. Gonzalez now refers to Bush as his client. Once upon a time, the American Citizen was his client. This is the real danger of the unitary executive: the loss of the complex structures that protect us from dictatorial control.
This was a deliberate step taken by Cheney.
Looseheadprop points out that in the past the pendulum has swung back. But that only happens when people can figure out what went wrong. Suppose we elect a left-authoritarian president next time. She would inherit a structure that might well be to her own liking, and the pendulum would not swing back.
France, anyone?
OT and not to dash any hopes…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories…..9H07.shtml
WASHINGTON, Apr. 18, 2006
——————————————————————————–
(AP) Al Gore has a major campaign under way _ to change policies on global warming.
The 2000 Democratic presidential nominee has hired longtime political associate Roy Neel to aid in his effort to raise awareness about global warming, a problem Gore calls “a planetary emergency.”
Gore’s movie and book about the issue, both called “An Inconvenient Truth,” are set for widespread release in May.
“He’s taking an increasingly high-profile role in working on the climate change issue,” Gore spokesman Michael Feldman said.
Gore repeatedly has brushed aside talk of another presidential bid, telling a Tennessee audience last month, “I’m not planning to be a candidate again. I haven’t reached a stage in my life where I’m willing to say I will never consider something like this.”
A payment of $40,000 to a Democratic polling firm stirred political talk, but pollster Mark Penn said it was settlement of a 2000 account.
Gore has warned about the dangers of global warming for years, arguing that without dramatic changes in the emission of greenhouse gases, the planet is likely to experience a dramatic increase in violent storms, infectious disease, deadly heat waves and rising sea levels that will force the evacuation of low-lying cities.
He plans to hold a training session in Nashville this summer on how to deliver the message on climate change.
The New York Daily News first reported on Gore’s hiring of Neel on Tuesday.
Gore’s campaign will pit him against an old adversary: President Bush.
Bush acknowledges global warming is a real problem, but he believes more uncertainty exists about the degree to which humans play a part _ mainly through fossil fuel burning _ than most scientists do.
He reversed a 2000 campaign pledge to regulate carbon dioxide, the chief global warming pollutant, and withdrew the United States from the Kyoto climate treaty, saying it would harm the U.S. economy and unfairly excluded fast-growing developing countries. Gore is a strong supporter of the Kyoto treaty.
Notice which news organization isn’t mentioned in the WaPo article.
The Washington Post did mention there Libby subpoena is passing in an article last week.
Very interesting, TAB # 4 Unclassified Niger/IraqmUranium Story and Joe Wilson
me to me 27 — very nice fisking.
McClellan just resigned! YAY!
OT, but yet another emblematic Bush outrage:
It is now widely reported that the Smithsonian has quietly inked an exclusive rights deal with Showtime — contractual details under wraps on “proprietary information” grounds — that essentially permits Showtime to decide who gets access to what Smithsonian holdings in the event someone is working on any historical/documentary projects that might interfere with Showtime’s commercial interests (e.g., any topics THEY might be doing or considering).
This typifies Bush’s privatization goal for all of government. Right. And let’s having fucking Bald Eagle McNuggets at the Golden Arches National Park — formerly known as The Grand Canyon.
Makes me ill.
Woo,hoo! McClellan quit!!!
Here’s more via Raw Story:
http://cbs5.com/nationalpoliti…..93320.html
OT but a very hopeful *sign*. Unfortunately I didn’t read about this in the NY Times of the WaPo.
From the Guardian: US students take to their tents in protest over funding.
And whaddaya know, Lil’ Scottie has bailed. Finally!
me to me (#27):
Very nice! You didn’t “feed the troll” — you “ate the troll for lunch!”
#36 – same reason some people can’t spell “rogue”? *G*
btw, how’s the weather on your isle? D.C. is just got a bit less smoggy!
Generally sage advice. I’ve become bored with my usual haunt, and apparently the posters here have become a bit jaded. Jockeying for the first opportunity to say “Fitz” makes the threads look a bit bare, and breathless announcement that Rummy had an interview on Rush’s show demonstrates a lack of real material.
The format here is user-friendly and I may finally learn how to use HTML tags in the process. I think I can make my points with pithy grace and some humor while providing cites for evidence when appropriate.
Why don’t we see how the process evolves, unless of course, this blog wishes to eschew controversy in it’s comment section and provide a protected environment where nary a discouraging word shall be heard.
Should that be the case my user name and email has been registered and can be easily banned. Speaking of username I’ve kept mine for some years now, and it does not refer to firearms. I’ve never owned a gun, don’t want a gun, will never own a gun. It will interesting to see how many people jump to the wrong conclusion.
One other thing while I’m thinking about it, I happen to think the world needs liberals. Liberals are the dreamers of what can be, what should be. Life cannot evolve well without that searching for direction. My opposition to liberals generally occurs when ideals are mistaken for reality. So…onward. Let’s see what happens.
Raw Story has McClellan resigning.
http://cbs5.com/nationalpoliti…..93320.html
Amen to finding time with a cuppa tea and a passion.
During football season I’ll plunk myself in front of the TV with a quilt I’m making and spend an entire afternoon and evening cutting and sewing bits together or dragging out my erm, unique, quilting frame and sewing till my eyes won’t stay open. The happiness I get from that lasts all week.
Take more time for what makes you really happy. It’s too short not to.
Mary (#17)
I honestly love you.
Wish I was half as intelligent and well-spoken.
Folks were asking about how the CT primary works. Am not a resident, but here goes, the cheap seats version:
Lamont is trying to get onto the primary ballot by one of two ways: (1) getting 15% of the delegate votes at the May 20 convention; or (2) gathering a large number of signatures. The actual primary is not until August 8. Initially they were just trying to get publicity by wooing delegates, now it looks like they will exceed the minimum for May by quite a lot.
I would donate more to the Lamont primary campaign but it would be against the law :D
Lamont: endorsed by egregious.
BEAT LIEBERMAN.
Shooter,
If you want to have a dialogue, support your points (preferably with links to news stories rather than rightwing websites).
And make sure that they are new points. For example, you said Fitz hadn’t shown that Plame was covert. This has been endlessly and accurately rebutted for at least a year on this and other websites, as has your assertion regarding the notion that Wilson’s trip actually supported the adminstration’s claim that Iraq had made “recent” and “vigorous” attempts to buy yellowcake.
If you are unclear as to whether you have the facts on something that has been endlessly debated already, check a variety of news sources, not just your right-wing websites. And, if you do choose to use right-wing sites, don’t forget to check the newslinks on those sites — make sure they link to actual news stories and not simply to other blogs and and opinion journals like the Weekly Standard. I checked a link on one of those sites once and the source (for a story on Iraq) was a “nurse in Oregon with an interest in politics.” Now she may have had better sources than reporters in Baghdad … but I doubt it.
Or check a left-wing site, and follow the newslinks there to see how we support our position. To get you started, for anything pre-war intelligence related for example, you won’t find better sourcing than the work by eriposte at the Left Coaster website.
Here we are, the reality-based community, diligently working on sorting the wheat from the chaff in the Plame case, revealing the distortions and lies in the lead-up to the war, and it’s happening all over again with Iran.
The same fucking playbook. Tears of rage, anyone?
This is in no way a criticism of FDL. You guys are doing God’s work.
It’s a simple metric: if Bush asserts total authority as Commander-in-Chief in a time of war, then we can expect war without end.
p.s. Hi, Karl.
shooter–it was your first post (that I’ve seen, and I try to keep up) and pretty clearly intended to rile things up rather than contribute to a discussion. They’re called drive-by’s for a reason and your moniker contributed to the assumption. Just like in real life, if your very first impression is to enter that way, people might make assumptions about you. If mine was wrong, my apologies. And if I was wrong, you can read my post as an answer to yours (though others did it better.)
Let me add my sincere thanks to Jane, Christy, and Pachacutec. Imagine trying to follow this story if we had to rely on the SCLM, particularly NYT and WaPo.
My opposition to liberals generally occurs when ideals are mistaken for reality.
This is an old meme, and no longer operative.
The most egregious collision of ideals and reality is the sole responsibility of the neo-cons and their Project for a New American Century.
Liberals created one of the longest lasting and most popular government programs ever with Social Security. Liberals balanced the budget. Liberals worked with the UN and didn’t lose a soul in Bosnia. Liberals created the largest budget surplus in history.
Paul Rudd should definitely play Fitz in the Movie –”All the President’s Voices.”
According to Dallas Morning news -
Karl rove is getting relieved of some of his duties.
“In another move in an ongoing shakeup of President Bush’s staff, longtime confidant and adviser Karl Rove is giving up oversight of policy development to focus more on politics with the approach of the fall midterm elections, a senior administration official said Wednesday.”
Could Fitz be close to indicting Karl and the White House is trying to get some separation.
http://www.dallasnews.com/shar…..eb1e5.html
Actually the charges are all process offenses limited to Libby and the investigation, not the act of Plame’s name becoming public. I suppose I could have been more specific and said no charges about leakage are on the table.
Literally true, but I would love to be in the position come election time, of asking why leaking a marginal CIA employee’s name is a criminal offense, but outing an ongoing actual operation (that polled positively) isn’t.
Take a look at this……
I have no doubt that you will contest the character of this site, but I don’t think you can contest their accuracy. It’s clear that Plame’s status remains an unknown, and is not an issue.
Here’s a quote from old Wilson most haven’t seen, that is telling as well.
Lastly here is the story about Fitz’s request to amend his work. It’s small but apparently significant.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04…..quire.html
Actually McClellan got pushed out the door because he was too easy on the White House Press Corps.
He was a good soldier but not the sharpest mind in the room. I look forward to seeing someone else with a stronger presence.
Mary, thank you for your frankness. As another writer said you may have already reached your tipping point-so be it. Its useful that you have expressed yourself. It is the frankness that everyone on this site has been screaming for from our elected officials.
Gore is wise to take on the issues rather than the personality cults. Truth is difficult to ignore, even subconsiously and it is very powerful. Thanks for speaking your truth. There is a great quote of Albert Einsteins on a sculpture of him in DC. It says:” The right to search for truth implies a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one reconized to be true.” He may have been speaking of science, but one could also say he was speaking of the strength in democracy and our obligation to truth which keeps democracy alive. That said, we all know we must continue to expose the lies, denials and disinformation that are destroying our democracy.
Linked by Jane. Wow…momentous day for a political blog nerd.
Paul Dirks 37:
aisle keep that in mind.
shooter—-http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/04/the_state_inr_m.html
Another break down of the document, this one goes into greater detail….unlike the first one who jumps on the wagon defending Mr. Rove.
Need I remind you, Kathy Lee Gifford quit Carnival Cruise but the boats chugged on.
shooter242 says:
Actually McClellan got pushed out the door because he was too easy on the White House Press Corps.
He was a good soldier but not the sharpest mind in the room. I look forward to seeing someone else with a stronger presence.
Actually McClellan left because he needed to spend more time lying to his family. His credibility was totally shot. And, by “stronger presence” do you mean an even better liar?
The big problem with the planned excellent adventure in Ira
qn is that we will not be facing a military worn down by years of war and humiliating defeat in service to a foolhardy, yet crafty, ruthless megalomaniac who ruled a fractured, artificial construct of a nation rife with ethnic and sectarian divisions. We will face a country united against an attack from a malevolent empire, and they will make all of our technology since James Watt (the Englishman, not the crazy ass Interior Secretary) so much junk.Grubs ‘n twigs, anyone?
Morris,
Actually, Scottie has to come back to Texas to help his momma get elected governor. Me, I’m voting for Kinky, as it will probably be my only chance to vote for a candidate with the campaign slogan “How hard can it be?”
Disagreeing with the consensus view of anything is going to “rile” things up. In that regard then your observation is correct. I find it considerably more entertaining and educational to seek out areas of disagreement. If I didn’t, I probably wouldn’t have happened upon a Harvard professor of Physics at a time when that expertise is so valuable. I doubt our politics are compatible, but you may be sure I’ll listen hard if you present facts about Iran’s program.
No apologies necessary, I am indeed here to be a dissenter. I’m sure some will consider me a troll, and others will enjoy the opportunity to argue a point. It may work out, it may not, but I’m going to give it a go to see what happens.
peachimp (?)
I tried this:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/m…..state_inr_ m.html
and got a 404 not found. Do you have an alternate URL?
yo shooter, it ain’t “the consensus view”, it’s bullshit, and it’s specially designed right wing bullshit at that
Valerie Plame was a cover agent, FACT, no view or opinion involved
scooter libby was indicted for lying about his knowledge of Valerie Plame, FACT, no view or opinion involved
Joe Wilson’s report said there was little or NO evidence that Niger was attempting to sell yellowcake to Iraq, FACT, no view or opinion involved
got any more right wing “Consensus View” talking points that we can slap you down for spouting ???
everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but everybody is NOT entitled to create their own reality out of hot air
thankfully for you, ignorance is curable, so, got anymore right wing delusion that we need to cure you of ???
Mary @ 17, thank you.
You’ve been reading my mail (metaphysically) as opposed to those who do it literally and illegally. I’m far from the first to say this, but I appreciate the chance to read so many posts on FDL that express so well how I feel and my frustrations about what is painfully sad and obvious about the failed institutions comprising the U.S. government. While I’m drawn to FDL by the entertaining quality of the insights and information, I really appreciate the time people take to contribute so many valuable thoughts — even the depressing ones. What is most frustrating about Mary’s comment is that it is all true. So much of this can never be fixed. The damage is done.
The level of core destruction done to the justice system, our security and our future is beyond words. It is breathtaking to state, but truly and understatement to acknowledge, that the criminal idiots, who control the government, economy, military and foreign policy, have irreparably harmed the United States and will leave a stain that will never wash.
The FDL community reassures me that there are many fellow travelers who make it worth fighting and hoping. Still, I realize everyday that a huge part of the tragedy is the very knowledge that, even though we might be able to vote the evil bastards out and return some semblance of reason to our failed and broken system, the stain will never go away. The damage will never be undone. There is no buy-back, restoration, atonement or any other fix either for what has been done to this country, or for what this country or has done in our names to the rest of the world. When the United States is finally delivered from the Bush administration, it will be a nation foreign to the country promised just a generation ago.
sláinte
cl
Shooter has been polite. We should return the favor. I think the opportunity to set someone straight with the facts is very valuable, and if we react to his presence with hostility, then we gain nothing except further polarization of the populace. We believe he’s wrong, sure, but he believes he’s right, and he has come here seeking reasonable discussion. I say we give it to him, unless he turns egregious troll. Being wrong or disagreeing alone does not a troll make.
i’ll bite, shooter:
Actually the charges are all process offenses limited to Libby and the investigation, not the act of Plame’s name becoming public. I suppose I could have been more specific and said no charges about leakage are on the table.
correct. He lied about his role in the leaking of her name. He is not currently being prosecuted for leaking her name.
Literally true, but I would love to be in the position come election time, of asking why leaking a marginal CIA employee’s name is a criminal offense, but outing an ongoing actual operation (that polled positively) isn’t.
leaking information that is classified as top secret is illegal, regardless of whether or not it is in the interests of the country that it be leaked. No one is saying that the leak of NSA wiretaps is legal, merely that we appreciate it. We all recognize that it is illegal, i think. This is a red herring, it is unrelated to the topic at hand.
It’s clear that Plame’s status remains an unknown, and is not an issue.
the piece you quote does not say that her status is unknown. It states that a) no assessment has been made of the damage and b) Fitz has not sought ‘All documents’ related to her status. It is entirely possible he has requested “some documents” related to her status. It is also well known that she was an undercover agent with a classified status. This is not unknown. It is, however, not the issue in the Libby indictments, you are correct.
Ironically, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who later called Bush’s 16 words a “lieâ€, supplied information that the Central Intelligence Agency took as confirmation that Iraq may indeed have been seeking uranium from Niger
Wilson’s report indicates that Saddam may have been seeking yellowcake; it also clearly states that he was extremely unlikely to get it. Bush used the one as evidence of an imminent threat, without mentioning that the threat was in no way imminent, according to the same source. This is dishonest. This is also not the issue, by the way, it is another red herring. The matter at hand is two-fold: immediately, the concern is whether or not Libby perjured himself and obstructed the investigation of who is responsible for leaking the identity of a covert agent. Fitz has ongoing concerns, not currently being litigated, with regards to that investigation.
It is fascinating that Wilson believed Saddam had weapons programs, truly it is. Lots of people did believe that. Bush made every effort to get people to believe that. And it is not a crime to have so believed.
It *is* a crime to leak a covert agent’s name as part of a smear campaign against a political opponent who, according to your own quote, didn’t believe that the threshold had been met for pre-emptive war of aggression.
that is the real issue, not wilson’s character or lack thereof. You are quick to point out that other leaking is a crime; why are you slow to acknowledge that *this* leaking was a crime?
Shooter,
The only thing that Wilson said that seemed to confirm any aspect of the administration’s case for war had to do with his conversation with Mayaki (former PM of Niger). Let me emphasize “seemed” since on anything more than a cursory inspection it is clear that Wilson’s report did not confirm the administration’s claim.
In his conversation with Mayaki, Wilson learned of a 1999 (hardly “recent”) trip by an Iraqi businessman to Niger.
The businessman mentioned improving trade relations…the Nigerien minister steered the conversation away from the subject on the grounds that he assumed the Iraqi was interested in yellowcake although neither expressly mentioned it. Niger had no interest in jeopardizing its relationship to the US and other Western nations by engaging in dealings with a rogue state. The businessman did not pursue the matter further. This can hardly be considered a “vigorous” effort on the part of Iraq.
That conversation is the sole basis for the administration claiming that Iraq had make a “recent” and “vigorous” attempt to procure yellowcake in Niger. And their sole basis for claiming that Wilson’s trip report supported their case for war.
Would you characterize it as either recent or vigorous? If you were going to commit troops to war, would that evidence convince you that the US was in imminent danger?
But that’s not all. In addition to Wilson’s report to the CIA, two other Americans in Niger reported back similar findings: General Carleton Fulford to the CJCS, Gen. Myers, and Ambassador Kirkpatrick-Owens to the State Department.
Finally, all of Wilson’s sources in Niger were very clear that it was highly improbable that such an effort would have succeeded anyway, for a variety of reasons.
So a preponderance of the evidence from three separate sources showed that Iraqi efforts to obtain uranium in Niger had been neither recent nor vigorous nor successful. And this was known by March 2002. Ten months before the SOTU.
Zenji says:
Thanks for voicing your willingness to give me the benefit of the doubt. We’ll see who sets who straight.(g) I also am a little off balance regarding the format change. Going back and forth between threads in this setup is a little disconcerting and there is the temptation to not return to a thread to check for responses. Now, on to the matter at hand.
No it is not a crime to have believed, but I don’t think it is so simple as Bush was the prime instigator. In fact Bush was merely surfing a wave of belief set in motion during the previous administration. And no, this is not kneejerk Clinton bashing. Here’s a factoid that few know. The Washington Post did a survey two days after 9/11 asking who the public thought perpetrated it. Saddam was considered likely by 78%. Here’s the link and the relevant date is listed as 9/13/01.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..082303.htm
Even the now revered General Zinni was hot for Iraq in 2000. The stage had already been set.
But back to Bush. The case for war as put forth by Bush will forever be tainted by the lack of evidence found after the fact. On the other hand as Juan Cole put it measuring the past by means of the future event is an “anachronism” and not valid. Bush took a position and stuck with it. I have various theories about that, but this is not the time.
Interestingly, Plame’s status wasn’t an issue until Corn’s interview with Wilson where it was postulated that outing her was a problem.
As for whether a crime has been committed regarding Plame’s status, that obviously has not been the case by way of Fitzgerald’s actions. One can speculate all day but we have to assume the burden of statute definitions has not been met. No crime. As for attacking Wilson, do you actually expect any administration to sit by idly while some guy challenges them directly on numerous occasions? That’s not realistic. I really believe that Wilson dragged her into this and perpetuated the controversy to keep the spotlight on himself.
If Fitz won’t acknowledge it, by definition, no crime was commited. You’ll have to take it up with him.
I’d consider that a fair representation of the situation regarding Wilson, but not of the SOTU address. Bush quoted the Brits not Wilson, and as I understand it, the Brits maintain the validity of their information to this day.
More importantly, people seem to forget that there were considerably more than 16 words in the SOTU address. The case for war was historical and comprehensive. Wilson is but a minor and now discredited figure in history. The person I think most derserving of sympathy here is Plame. Not because of Libby, but because her husband used her for his own ends.
That was excellent Mary. It sums up how I feel. Do you have a link for the decision by the UK to let their citizens be tortured?
http://stopwaroniran.org/petition.shtm excellent petition – I think this is the one that goes to Condi, Dick, many, many Congress members, Kofi Annan, newspapers all with one petition. It was linked by Women Against War Madness.
http://www.worldwidewamm.org/
We Do Not Have a Nuclear Weapons Program – Javad Zarif, Iranian Ambassador to the United States Published April 6, 2006
Fitz does need to hurry. People are being tortured now and dying. The Iraqi people do not have sanitary water even from halliburton who has stolen our treasure.
Why did it take Fitz 6 months to realize that the mandate given to him by Comey did not included action on the Niger documents? As stated very recently by Fitz to Congressman Hinchey on Rep. Hinchey’s government site?
This shows why Fitz or someone must hurry before bushco completely destroys our military in the planned nuclear houlecost in Iran.
Professor Rice committed a fatal TACTICAL error when she insulted the military by shooting off her academic mouth again. Businessman Rummy will probably be the first to pay the price for the clearly STRATEGIC blunders made by BUSHCO. He won’t be the only one.
Wonder how long five-deferment, quail-in-a-cage, eagle-eye and spandex-wearing, National-Guard-poser, leak-man, liar can hang on even with lap-dog media propaganda bullshit set to full spin cycle. Respect is everything in the military.
The cost of getting it back hurts way more than those candy asses wll ever be able to bear.
The long-term goal of Rumsfeld/Cheney, et al, is to destroy the military as a public institution and replace it with a privatized military, which we will pay for with our tax dollars, but which will be not be answerable to us.
Firms like Blackwater are already expanding to take the place of the military personnel that Rumsfeld has been paring away. The advantage is obvious: these firms pay 3 to 4 times what the military does, so can attract skilled employees, and taxpayers don’t care because they don’t understand that they are making up the difference.
Nobody will cry crocodile tears over the death and dismemberment of private contract soldiers. Anyone who quits and blows the whistle on a private contractor will be dismissed out of hand as a “disgruntled former employee”.
Well-compensated mercenary soldiers can be counted upon to enforce martial law when it is declared, because their loyalties lie with their company, not with their country.
Rumsfeld is not going anywhere — he has been completely successful so far in carrying out the goals of the Bush administration
Rumsfeld personally supervised torture, says Human Rights Watch
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.co…..9c0884ff3a
Human Rights Watch says it believes U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld could be criminally liable for the torture of a detainee at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002 and 2003.
The universally respected international organization was commenting on an Army Inspector General’s report which contains a sworn statement by Lt. Gen. Randall M. Schmidt that implicates Secretary Rumsfeld.
The report, obtained by Salon.com, was based on an investigation that was carried out in early 2005, and included two interviews with Rumsfeld. In the report Gen. Schmidt describes the defense secretary as being “personally involved” in the interrogation of detainee Mohammad al-Qahtani.
Human Rights Watch has urged the U.S. to name a special prosecutor to investigate the culpability of Rumsfeld and others in the al-Qahtani case.
“The question at this point is not whether Secretary Rumsfeld should resign, it’s whether he should be indicted,” said Joanne Mariner, Terrorism and Counterterrorism Program director at Human Rights Watch. “General Schmidt’s sworn statement suggests that Rumsfeld may have been perfectly aware of the abuses inflicted on al-Qahtani.”
more…
You said:
“I’d consider that a fair representation of the situation regarding Wilson, but not of the SOTU address. Bush quoted the Brits not Wilson, and as I understand it, the Brits maintain the validity of their information to this day.”
Tony Blair maintains that, but the British commission investigating their pre-war intelligence disagreed. The Brits had nothing but the 1999 attempt. And no evidence of success. Check the Guardian or the Independent for the details on the commission.
You said:
“More importantly, people seem to forget that there were considerably more than 16 words in the SOTU address. The case for war was historical and comprehensive.
How historical? What do you mean by that? If by historical you are referring to the case made by the neocons, I would refer you to Francis Fukuyama’s recent post-mortem on that little excursion into dreamland.
How comprehensive — practically speaking, the case made to the American people had three parts:
1) “the mushroom cloud” which rested on the yellowcake claims (discredited before the war as my post has shown) and the aluminum tubes, which both INR and DOE asserted, before the war, were most likely used for conventional not nuclear weapons. And let’s remember that, in terms of expertise in assessing the potential uses of those tubes, DOE had the most expertise and their judgement should have been given primacy.
2) chemical and biological weapons (based on the claims of an Iraqi defector to Germany) — his evidence was also discredited before the war and the Germans made it clear that they found it incredible that the US thought his claims were credible enough to use to make a case for war. Type Curveball into the Los Angeles Times search engine and see the sterling work done on this subject by their reporters.
3) the “connection to 9/11″ — based on a rumored meeting in April 2001 in Prague between Mohammed Atta and an agent of Iraqi intelligence. It was primarily based on a report by a single Czech informant. Except that the FBI was already tracking Atta by that time and they reported and believe (to this day) that Atta never left the country at the time was supposed to be in Prague. The best evidence shows that he was in Virginia Beach … and there are no records (hotel bills, no passport or ticketing records, nothing).
You said:
“Wilson is but a minor and now discredited figure in history.”
You said that I gave a fair representation of the situation regarding Wilson and yet persist in referring to him as discredited. You can’t have it both ways. My post showed exactly the opposite…the administration was unable to discredit Wilson because the facts (and the other sources of intelligence on the yellowcake issue) showed that Wilson was correct. When they couldn’t discredit him on the facts, they tried to use his wife’s position to paint his trip as a boondoogle … with disastrous political fall-out for themselves. It was their own stupidity that turned Wilson from a minor footnote to a central player.
You said:
“The person I think most deserving of sympathy here is Plame. Not because of Libby, but because her husband used her for his own ends.”
This is just illogical and offensive. I was going to add that it is also paternalistic crap but I am trying to be nice.
One — you have not said how Wilson “used” her. It was the administration who brought her up in their effort to discredit Wilson. It makes no sense for Plame — or you — to blame Wilson for that.
Two — why would you feel sorry for a adult woman who is fully capable of looking at her situation and determining exactly who is responsible for what happened. She’s not stupid or blinded by love or emotion … and she’s not asking for your “sympathy” about her “user” husband — she knows exactly who to be legitimately angry with and it is not her husband.
This thread is just about dead, but a few final points.
If you are wondering exactly what identifies a person as a troll, it is precisely the kind of response you gave above — I explained exactly what had happened re: Wilson and provided sources. You agreed that my account was “fair” and yet persisted in mischaracterizing Wilson as “discredited”.
And then you tried to smear him as a husband, which was just bizarre and inflammatory. And something that used to be said quite often by the talking heads over at Fox News.
You also claimed that the administration’s case for war was both historical and comprehensive without explaining what you meant by either.
If you are the same shooter who posts at the WP messages boards, I’ll be happy to continue this debate with you there, unless and until you begin routinely engaging in troll-like practices such as those I’ve mentioned above. I won’t lose my temper … but I also won’t waste my time if you start with that crap.
Hmmmm. We seem to have differing opinions on Wilson and trolldom simultaneously. The Niger affair is pretty much as you described, yet Wilson has gone on to be caught in subsequent “mischaracterizations” to the point where even the Kerry campaign jettisoned him. Now you may disagree with my opinion, but that doesn’t make me a troll. To my mind that would be someone that berates another for having an opinion at all with abusive language.
Expressing sympathy for Plame seems an unlikely “smear” as well. The simple fact that she has remained publicaly aloof from the fray makes her that most noble character in the entire episode. Both sides included.
I am one and the same, but as I said earlier, I’m trying to broaden my horizons. Considering that comments I consider fairly benign are so upsetting to you, I think I’ll pass on your most generous offer.
We can all hope that Ryan won’t be lonely for Republican company in the Big House for long. Hopefully, Karl, Dick, Alberto and Georgie can hang out with him in the yard. They can be pen pals with Condi, who should be in the Ladies’ Big House. Such a lovely picture of these criminals chatting in the yard at the Big House.
The Federal Prison system should set up a Web-Cam in the yard so the taxpayers can watch the administration at play in the Yard at the Big House. I guess it’s ok with me if they use Guantanamo for these guys, you know, for security reasons. Wouldn’t want anyone shooting them or stabbing them with a shiv and taking them out of their misery.
You are either misreading or mischaracterizing me if you think you have upset me. I assure you nothing you can say would affect me to the point of upsetting me — I am not that emotionally invested in online debates. So don’t use that as a reason to avoid a discussion of this or any topic here or on another message board.
Women are not as fragile as you seem to think we are.
What I am averse to is wasting my time.
You cannot have it both ways — either Wilson mischaracterized his trip — or his critics in the administration did. I demonstrated to you, using sources, that it was the latter and you conceded that my account of events was “fair”.
You cannot then go on to blame Wilson for being “caught in subsequent mischaracterizations” when those mischaracterizations were not of his making. When in fact they were quite deliberate attempts on the part of administration officials to destroy his credibility and reputation. And then those mischaracterizations were picked up and repeated unquestioningly and ad nauseam by pundits on the right.
It was a smear campaign and, for a while — i.e., the duration of the 2004 political campaign just as Rove wanted — it worked. Wilson became a liability to the Kerry campaign — but not through any fault of his own. Again, he was not the one who mischaracterized his trip, his findings, or his motives.
You also indicated that the Kerry campaign jettisoned him. What do you mean by this?
And by the way, being a troll does not require any abusive language. I don’t faint away when someone uses a four letter word even though I tend not to use them myself.
A troll is someone who sticks to their talking points or continues to reiterate the same information after that information or those points have been factually discredited.
A troll simply ignores or avoids discussing points on which the facts are against them.
A troll generally cites journals of opinion or rightwing websites (if he or she bothers to provide sources at all) rather than news sources that can be fact-checked.
A troll is someone who turns his arguments onto the person they are debating rather than on the points being made.
It is troll-like of you to admit that my account of what happened to Wilson is “fair” and yet to continue to blame him rather than the administration. It is ideological rather than logical. Which is the very definition of troll.
It is troll-like of you to avoid responding to the next part of my response to you, which dealt with what you said was a “historical and comprehensive” case for war.
It is troll-like of you to use your perceptions of my emotional response to you as a basis for avoiding the debate entirely.
You may not be a troll. You are certainly less obviously a troll than many I’ve encountered. But it is certainly not clear yet that you are not a troll.
Another post like that last one you put up and there won’t be any doubt however. And I don’t waste time on trolls. Ask Bart.
Don’t know who is/isn’t a troll- but if the subject of the thread gets diverted to a discussion about a poster–the effect is not good.
RW
Read back through the previous 10 or so posts this thread. They dealt with the issue of pre-war intelligence. The troll question was raised by shooter and it merited a response. An explanation of what is considered a troll is not an attack on a poster — it is an explanation of what constitutes troll-like behavior. And why we on the left consider it a waste of time to engage trolls.
And read through some of the threads on other lefty sites. We are quick to dismiss people who want to discuss things with us as trolls –just because we already know that the talking points that they have learned about on their right-wing sites have already been debunked.
Unless we explain what we mean by troll-like behavior and what kinds of arguments actually constitute legitimate contributions to a debate, we are just calling people names.