
(guest blog by Taylor Marsh)
Iraq's top legislator postponed the meeting of parliament scheduled for Monday, putting off "for a few days" an attempt to resolve a months-long deadlock over the formation of the country's new government.
The move was not entirely unexpected, but it still represented a setback for U.S. officials and an Iraqi public losing patience with four months of political paralysis since Dec. 15, when the country held elections to form a long-term government.
The delay coincided with a surge in sectarian killings between Iraq's Sunni Arabs and Shiite Muslims. At least 37 Iraqis died in shootings, bombings and other attacks Sunday, according to police officials and news reports. U.S. military officials also reported killing five insurgents in a raid in which a woman also was killed, and said four Marines were killed in combat west of Baghdad.
The Marines, from Regimental Combat Team 5, were killed in two engagements in Anbar province, officials said.
Iraqi Bid To End Impasse Stalls
Leader Postpones Parliament Session (photo by Mohammed Hato - AP)
As a blast rips through Tel Aviv, we get more disconcerting news out of Iraq.
It may not sound as sexy as nuking Iran, but it's a critical story for the U.S. and the entire Middle East region.
The Iraqis have postponed the meeting of parliament for "a few days." A few days? What exactly does that mean? In case the Iraqis don't get it, let me just remind everone that we don't have "a few days."
We've waited for over 4 months for the Iraqis to get their act together, while U.S. blood and treasure continues to be spilt and spent in Iraq. The Iraqis obviously don't see the urgency in the situation. There's only one reason why.
George W. Bush has not put near enough pressure on the Iraqis to get on with doing what the Iraqi people risked their lives to create, a government all of their own in Iraq. Why isn't there more pressure being exerted from the president and his people?
One simple answer is that Bush doesn't have any leverage with the Iraqis any longer. He's talked so long about not leaving Iraq until the Iraqis stand up that they obviously know the president will give them all the time they need. Right now, the Iraqis don't see a win in forming a government, because we'll be there as long as they need us, regardless of how long it drags out. So, the Iraqis are taking their own sweet time. Bush saying he'll stay until the Iraqis are ready has added to the carnage and the growing civil war crisis that is threatening to not only destabilize Iraq, but spread throughout the region.
Now that minority Shiite and Sunnis are fleeing cities on fear of their lives, you'd think the new Iraqi legislators would get the urgency of the situation. But not even that sight has inspired them to move.
Via Juan Cole we get the continuing Bush foreign policy legacy: if at first you don't succeed, try failing at the same strategy again and again.
U.S. officials are pressing for early local election in troubled Anbar province, hoping it will produce a government that can undercut support for the insurgency in the region where it is strongest.
The effort has gained new urgency amid U.S. fears that Sunni Arab extremists are trying to fill a political vacuum created when tribal sheiks fled to Jordan in recent months. The sheiks got out after a suicide attack and assassinations of local figures who had worked with the Americans.
Past attempts to form a government in Anbar - including provincial councils and officials appointed by the Americans or the U.S.-backed government in Baghdad - have had little success in winning public confidence in this Sunni Arab-dominated province, a bastion of the insurgency since it erupted following the U.S.-led invasion three years ago. (Juan Cole)
"A few days" wait to form an Iraqi government is not good enough. Someone needs to light a fire under these people. If Bush and his administration can't get it done they need to get an emissary over to Iraq immediately who can make it happen and soon. Everything depends on Iraq forming a permanent government. Get it done.
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EPUd - and important:
just received in email - hope everyone will join this campaign in some way this week:
A Week of Action for Victims of War
On the road from Baghdad Airport one year ago yesterday, Marla Ruzicka and her colleague Faiz Ali Salim were killed by a suicide bomber while advocating on behalf of victims of war. Today we reflect on their powerful voices for compassion and remember all civilians killed or injured in conflict.
To mark this anniversary, we are launching a new website as well as a week-long advocacy campaign to raise awareness about the human cost of war.
CIVIC continues to be a voice for civilians caught in the crossfire and we need your help. Starting today and continuing for four days, you will receive emails announcing the ‘daily action.’ Each action is created to inform, energize and expand support for this critical issue.
Please help us make this week a success by participating in whatever way makes sense to you and helping us spread the word.
Click http://www.civicworldwide.org/ to find or host an event in your area.
Thank you, as always, for your continued support of CIVIC.
I’ve signed on to the Chicago effort - and will circulate this to our state group. Hope others here will do the same!
post for john casper
john I don’t want to take this off topic but I resondied to a post you made regarding a statement from me on the previous thread
OT also, sorry Taylor!
But, it looks like Fitz may have some more spare time on his hands to focus on the Plot to Assassinate the Character of Joe Wilson and the career of Valerie Wilson.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....erline-411
-GSD
Taylor - I don’t think we have any right to fuss at the Iraqis for not doing what we want. We have devastated their country and the normal relations between the various segments of Iraqi society. And when they held elections but picked someone we didn’t like, Condi and strawman decended to tell them they better change their mind. I’m not saying that the players in this delay are honorable or upstanding but we have created this mess and we cannot now blame the Iraqis for not “standing up.” They owe us nothing.
Sorry to be off-topic, but as much as I love your site, I am getting real tired of looking at that annoying photo of the girl in glasses in the upper-left corner of your homepage …
Scottie’s begun taking general questions on C-SPAN 2. General questions, not-so-general answers.
Bush is already on the record as saying that getting the troops out of Iraq will be a problem for a U.S. President to-be-named-later.
Therefore, the message to Iraq - take your time, we’re gonna be here a while yet.
As much as I agree that the Iraqi gov’t needs to get it together, I can see why there is no sense of urgency on the administration’s part given that we have 14 permanent military bases and a US city/embassay in progress. W has no intentions of competely withdrawing, he’s oblivious to the harm that is being done to our troops, our treasury or the Iraqi people. He’s in no hurry. The outrage continues!
Sorry to differ, siun, but it’s not a matter of what the Iraqis owe us. It’s what our government owes the citizenry and the U.S. military now that we’re over in Iraq. Finish the job and give the Iraqis back their country, whether they want it or not.
The Democrats are demanding a deadline for setting up the government or we’re going to start pulling troops out. Bush, on the other hand, isn’t doing anything. Something needs to shift and fast or the Iraqis will be in even worse shape.
We broke it, now we need to get it at least mended. The only way to do that is through a permanent government. Remember, we’re not pushing the Iraqi people, who have voted in the legislators. We’re pushing the people who posture that they want to lead. Okay, then lead, already.
There is so much wrong with this posting that I’m going to stay out of this one as I don’t trust myself not to lose my temper very badly.
I’ll confine myself to pointing out that they had an agreement until your ambassador ordered them to find a different PM. That was only the most recent and most blatant meddling. Of course the US govt. doesn’t actually want an Iraqi government committed to ordering them out. Which the Jaffari/al-Sadr coalition is committed to doing. (To say nothing of al-Sadr al-Hakkim moves to towards raprochement.)
You’re reaping what you sowed starting with a constitution designed to produce weak coalition governments in a weak federal state.
Leave and take your poodle Blair with you. Your presence is the problem not a part of the solution.
Ms. Marsh, I’m going to kindly disagree with you on this article. Your solution is logical, but I think you’re missing a deeper, more fundamental problem.
I’ve never been convinced that the Iraquis yearn for “democracy”. Bush foisted that idea on us here stateside. Now, did those folks want to be rid of Saddam? Oh sure. But for them, it was “anything but Saddam”. Hell, a brigade of Martians could’ve invaded Iraq, captured Saddam, and those folks would’ve pretended to be all in love with “Martian Law”.
I think the failure to get a gov’t going illustrates a massive flaw with the WH assumption about post-war Iraq. And, I think no amount of pushing from America is going to get Iraq any closer to forming a gov’t we like.
So, what type of gov’t do those folks want? Hell if I know. But I think we’d be tter off getting out of their way, letting them sort thru things, and making their own decisions. Oh…that might mean a gov’t not up to snuff with Bush and Condi’s ideals….women may be 2nd rate classes….much religion may be involved in gov’t, our various American social policies thrashed over there…but that’s up to them.
Iraq is a tarbaby. But, our president has put all his fists full of reputation and pleas to the American people right smack into the middle of that tarbaby. And now we see the result.
Ghostman
The mess started with shock and awe, the CPA and now Zalmay Khalilzad. Where has any diplomacy happened? Certainly not before the illegal war. We have killed thousands and are an occupying force. Condi, Rummy drop in for a suprise visit. NOBODY is engaged. When have we listened to anyone in the region? It is our mess and our fault. Our ‘leaders’ spew on and on about freedom and democracy and how good things are and only the Iraqis and the soldiers are living the reality. I really despise the talk by the administration and other pundits who cry out that we freed them from Saddam and they ought to be grateful. Expats were the only ones begging us to ‘liberate’ Iraq by destroying Iraq– I daresay the average Iraqi does not think of this as liberation. We need to leave and pay reparations, and send this horde of ghouls to the Hague as proof of our abject apologies.
I’m not at all sure that US policy really wants Iraq to form an effective government. The Bush/Neocons say that they do, but their actions in building all those permanant bases, and the giant US “Embassy” nation-state in Baghdad strongly indicate that they intend to occupy and govern Iraq for a long, long time.
Taylor,
While I appreciate the frustration you are expressing, I do take exception to placing so much of the onus on the Iraqis. The US is for an independant Iraq as long as we can choose the leaders, maintain our military presence, build the largest embassy complex the world has ever known and continue funneling large amounts of Iraqi cash and oil revenue to American businesses until time ends.
From my reading, much of the problem is that the US does not want the democratically chosen leader–Jafaari–to lead because he has plans to ask for the removal of the US troops. So a lot of this handwringing about those “fickle, vacillating, ungrateful” Iraqis is because the US is still inserting itself into the internal politics of a nation in order to hamstring the leadership from enacting policies that the US doesn’t want enacted.
I don’t quite understand the logic…We are all for Iraqi democracy until they exersize that option..then the US wants to be the kingmaker?
I don’t think the Iraqis are taking their “own seet time”…I think that their nation is spiraling out of control and they are being battered about by a their own people, the US and British, the Iranians, domestic terrorists, former Saddam loyalists, homegrown nationalists, foreign insurgents, religious leaders and the forces of ethnic and relgious intolerance.
The Iraqis are just trying to prevent the entire nation from melting down…and they ain’t doing so hot a job. I don’t blame them for their current condition as much as I blame Bush, Blair, Cheney and the Neo-Con hegemony mongers that wanted to use Iraq as a test market for their world strategy.
-GSD
OT
Sorry to be a blogwhore but this is from Howie Klein’s (former president of Reprise Records) DownWithTyranny!:
“Ok; first: the album is beyond belief. I mean it’s so great I was jumping out of my skin. That’s the good news. The less good news is that they wouldn’t play it for me unless I agreed not to write about it for “a few days.” (Not even the label has heard it yet and they felt it would be impolite for me to go blabbing the whole story all over the world until after they get to play it for Reprise and the NY Times.) So what can I tell you before “a few days?” Not much. From the time Neil started writing the songs until he finished recording the whole incredible project: 9 days.
Every song is about… you know what (and who). Musically it is so powerful and emotionally it’s even more powerful that that!! Many tears while I sat alone with the headset on. Since I already mentioned “Let’s Impeach the President,” I’ll just say a few things about that. It’s this great rocker that ends as a gospel song and reads like an indictment. I mean Neil sounds like he’s been reading Daily KOS or FireLakeDog! Someone’s gotta get this to Henry Waxman! Neil even lays out some evidence in the form of Bush running his mouth on tape.
Will this go down as Neil’s greatest album ever? It will be a contender musically. And the impact lyrically could be profound. I’ll talk more about that when my period of musical purdah is up next week. If you’re walking down the street and someone comes up to you and offers you the opportunity to hear just one song, ask him to play “Flags of Freedom.” (Have kleenex handy.)”
Firelakedog?! Hmm, could Neil Young be reading Firedoglake?
At any rate, I thought Jane and Redd might want to know who’s (possibly) lurking here.
Hamas has just stated that the suicide bombing of an eatery in Israel “legitimate”.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....MlJVRPUCUl
Looks like the Apocalypse Clock has been moved ahead by 5 minutes.
-GSD
Rob - “…I am getting real tired of looking at that annoying photo of the girl in glasses in the upper-left corner of your homepage …”
I know what you mean. That creepy Terri Schiavo grin is just SO disturbing…maybe we can get a different picture for the ad? I’m getting a bit skeeved out by it.
mc - news like that is never off-topic. “I mean Neil sounds like he’s been reading Daily KOS or FireLakeDog!”
Taylor - I’m not at all sure we aren’t putting enormous behind-the-scenes pressure on the top functionaries of whatever it is the Iraqis are struggling to form right now. The longer we stay, the more wrong this whole thing IS.
BINGO. That’s exactly the point Ed*ard Teller.
Appreciate all the comments, including the dissenters, but the bottom line is still forming a permanent government. The Iraqi people need it to survive and it’s important to point out that Bush is failing at getting a government formed. It cannot be said enough. Believe me, I understand the causes we’re in this mess, but it’s still push come to shove time. The Iraqis need to form a government and they need to do it now.
what that Irish guy said upstairs !
not in much of a commenting mood, but i would have to agree wholeheartidly w/siun and rob, #4&5.
there have been a few excellent posts here, especially your (taylor) founding father’s post that i was very tempted to forward to some of my religeous southern relatives, but i fear they would be really turned off by the implication the site is promoting the messge in the ad. the prominence and placement of the ad makes it hard to miss.
US News & World Report:
Rummy-should he stay or should he go.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/p.....sphome.htm
-GSD
What the Iraqis do or don’t do with their country is quite literally none of our business. If there were any justice in this world, we’d be gone from there already with our tails between our legs. The only legitimate course of action now for a country that claims to believe in democracy, is to pack up and leave immediately, and to pray to whatever god or gods we believe in to forgive us our trespasses; namely, the slaughter of innocents, the destruction and theft of goods that never belonged to us, and the intolerable self-righteousness and cruelty that thinks to reduce an entire people to pawns in a geopolitical game that we mistakenly believe is ours to win or lose.
Shame on us all, and shame on Taylor Marsh for this post.
usnews poll re Rumsfeld resignation: Yes 73% - No 27%. No mention of how many votes.
Thanks, Taylor!
OT, sorry, but I wanted to get Ed*ard Teller’s (as an Alaskan) take on the announcement by Mike Gravel today for a run for the Presidency. I think he’ll stir the pot nicely!!!
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Poli.....id=1850821
Well, ok Ms. Marsh….I think you’re saying “form a gov’t! Form any damn gov’t, but get one formed! Get the sewage working, lights and water working, etc etc. Just get it done!”
If the WH would just say that, we might see progress. But the WH cannot say that….they’ve lectured and lectured about a “democratic Iraq”…and in effect telling the widows and orphans that, therefore, your Dad died for a good cause. For the WH to shift now would be political suicide. It’s their own tarbaby.
Ghostman
Someone needs to light a fire under these people. If Bush and his administration can’t get it done they need to get an emissary over to Iraq immediately who can make it happen and soon. Everything depends on Iraq forming a permanent government.
If only that were true. First of all, GSD and markfromireland are right — the Bushites are actively preventing the formation of a government, because they’re making a goal-line stand against an Iran-friendly Shiite police state (as opposed to the U.S.-friendly, secular police state they were expecting).
Second, even if they do eventually succeed in forming a government, the same factional battles (not just between Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds, but within each group) are going to go on. The moment we failed to stop the looting after entering Baghdad, it was clear to everyone in Iraq that the rule of law was obsolete, and it’s only going to be re-imposed when one side literally outguns everyone else.
RYAN GUILTY AS CHARGED ON ALL CHARGES!
Chalk up another for Fitz!
OT, but maybe not - it depends on who gets awarded for what. The 2006 Pulitzers will be announced at 3:15 p.m. EST today at this site:
http://www.pulitzer.org/index.html
So what exactly does “light a fire under these people” look like? Given the reactions to our other emissaries, I’m not sure a new one would do much more good, and might even make things worse. (Molly Ivins’ First Rule of Holes comes to mind: Stop digging!)
What would be different about any other person sent out by the Bush admin, that would change the way that person would be received? Who would that person be?
Unless you can answer these two questions, the suggestion to “light a fire” is just words.
No!
Another Republican leader guilty of corruption?
Say it ain’t so! This is an outrage. The liberals will stop at nothing to attack the Republicans.
Jesus wasn’t as persecuted as the GOP.
Sounds like the making of a new movie:
Frog March of the Elephants
-GSD
WT @23 - I want out of Iraq as much as anyone here. The faster we can get the legislators to act the faster that can happen. There is no way we are pulling back before that happens, no matter how much we may want it. That’s reality. If the Iraqi legislators fail to form a government soon, the Democrats have already stated that we should begin drawing down troops. Kerry stated a May 15th time for beginning departure. Making the case that there is no government still, because of Bush, helps that prospect further. It’s okay to disagree with me, but again, I stand by the fact that we need a government formed in Iraq, which is the bottom line, regardless of the drama and incompetence, the utter weakness of Bush. We need to put as much pressure as possible on the Iraqi legislators to get the job done.
Well said swopa. Thank you. Exiting with steam coming from my ears as I really don’t trust myself not to resort to language I’d regret.
As I’ve repeatedly said on my other blog (not the one that’s my homepage) link “Just go”
“George W. Bush has not put near enough pressure on the Iraqis to get…”
Impersionation of GWB: “Well, my generals on the ground tell me that things are going well…uh…that we need patience…we can’t force or pressure the Iraqis. It is not right to ‘force’ anyone - except in my frat house (heh heh).
“Okay, so we have to wait for good news. See bad news comes fast — like airmail! Good news comes slow…like by boat. So when the boats come in, there will be lots of good news coming in. See!!???!”
‘a government all of their own’ — that line must have provoked lots of carcajadas besides mine
who’s kidding whom? — taylor, you’re smarter than what you posted here — we can’t undo what most americans [including leading democrats] wanted bush to do & just by being in iraq we make things worse — let’s support our troops by bringing them home now
Thanks Swopa.
When I started reading FDL (October?), I still thought the U.S. military had a peacekeeping role to play in Iraq. I don’t have that position any more. Bush has completely discredited our military.
We have tremendous leverage in the Middle East, if we would just reduce the amount of foreign oil we buy. That would reduce our foreign debt, reduce the funds that Iran has to research nuclear weapons, and would force us to become more energy independent. We also wouldn’t be losing the limbs and lives of U.S. service personell.
i’m not clear how anyone , after reading the ‘embassy’ post could still have any illusions about an intent for the US to ever leave iraq. embassys aren’t 100+ acres. it’s a town. how convenient to say we are going to leave when they form a government and then do everything in our power to prevent just that. iraqi’s are not going to be happy w/a puppet gov and thats the only one we would appreove of. i just read somewhere of allawi being installed ‘temporarily. what a fiasco. we’re lighting a fire under them alright. via negroponte, pyops, special forces. this whole media boondoggle of ‘we’ll go when you have it together’ is a charade, i’m surprised anyone has fallen for it, especially here.
There is no incentive for either the Shi’ites or the Kurds to form a government. Both of them are happily cleansing their areas of other ethnicities. Both of them are sitting on big oil reserves. It is quite likely that both of them would love Iraq to break up into parts, the Kurds especially.
Moreover, I’m not sure the Bush administration has any big incentive for Iraq to form a government. If they do form a government, it will likely be an Islamic theocracy dominated by the Shi’a. That would be not only embarrassing, but they might kick the US out of Iraq. I think Bush would rather have chaos. Chaos will allow him to pull US troops into the large permanent bases we have built in Iraq, and launch attacks from them against Iran without having to worry about the Shi’ites freaking out on the US.
The Sunni are just screwed eather way, and they know it, which removes any incentive they have to form a government that legitimizes the slaughter and ethnic cleansing.
So, while this is very much Bush’s fault, it is now totally out of his control. There really isn’t anything he can do but pull out. Unfortunately, he will “pull out” to the American bases, because he’ll fight a second Iraq war to keep us from being ejected from the country.
Taylor, may I infer that you want us to keep playing a role in Iraq because you’re delighted with how we’ve helped Iraqis take women’s rights away?
Taylor, I always enjoy your always high quality posts. I don’t always agree with you 100%, but they are well thought out and crystal clear.
Sadly, we must face the fact that there will never be a “solution” in Iraq so long as the United States is involved in any way, shape or form.
angie,
My wife and I have been LOL about Mike’s impending announcement since we found out about it Friday.
I’ve always thought of Mike Gravel as a poseur. Just before I moved to Alaska, in 1972, he read the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional Record, which was an heroic stunt, but a stunt nevertheless. I think he did some crying on TV cameras around that time too.
Soon afterward, I was living and working in Cordova, Alaska and interviewed him for the local radio station about fisheries issues. Whenever he came back there over the next three years, I’d interview him on those same themes. He kept up on the issues, but was always proposing grandiose solutions. There were exceptions, though, like his backing of the proposed “Law of the Sea Treaty”, which would have been great, but never came to be. And his early support for our pet project in Cordova - the Prince William Sound Aquaculture Corporation, which ended up being the largest cooperatively owned and operated hatchery system in the world, and helped keep Cordova alive after the Exxon Valdez spill.
The last four years Gravel was in the U.S. Senate, we lived in Whittier, where I was a municipal administrator and my wife was on the city council. Gravel came down there a few times. He seemed to be making a pass at my wife on one of his visits, which soured us both a bit on him. A few months later, I was at the Juneau airport, and Gravel was causing a huge ruckus in the terminal. He had bought a rather large painting and refused to surrender it to the crew before getting on the plane. He broke out crying, verging on hysteria. What a scene. Still etched indelibly.
The last time Gravel visited Whittier, he walked in through the 13 miles of tunnels - one of few times I’ve known somebody to do that sober. When he got into town, he declared he envisioned a huge, clear dome over the whole city.
Unfortunately, he would be a far, far, far better president than the one we’ve got.
I know I’m outnumbered on this one but I still believe the fact that the government isn’t formed can be used as a tipping and push point. A point where we can then say, as Kerry and others have said, that if the Iraqis don’t form a government we need to start withdrawing troops. They wouldn’t have voted without deadlines and I feel the same about the government. Give them a deadline and if they don’t get it done we’ll leave. Talking about what happened with the looting doesn’t get us out of Iraq. Putting a deadline for the Iraqi legislators to form a permanent government could, I believe. We’ll just have to disagree on this one.
one more thing. let’s play what if. what if everything had gone swimmingly and the war had ended @ mission accomplished? who here believes we would have packed up and come home without building all those permanent bases and that town in baghdad? raise your hand. time, the neocons needed time, and we sure are getting it.
what markfromireland (#10) said
Not to put too fine a point on it: as Iraqi MP’s actually are on the ground in Baghdad, I imagine they quite understand the urgency. “Lighting a fire under them” is probably more literal than figurative already.
Though I do think the incredible slowness in forming a government is per se a clear indication of what a mess we’ve wrought. The situation is so bad that even in the midst of the obvious urgency, people on the ground are paralyzed by a lack of good (or even acceptable) options.
Bob Adams @ 10:08 am (#17) [and Rob] - I’m using Firefox and don’t see any photos of creepy girls, with or without glasses. Checking the adblock list shows quite a few images.
http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/
This is also based on the false premise:
“If they have a government, things will get better.”
We have seen this hopeful projection from the very beginning.
*Remove Saddam, Iraq will be free and happy.
*Kill Udai and Qusay and the insurgency will end.
*Capture Saddam and the insurgency will end.
*Hold elections and the insurgecy will end.
*Hold more elections and the insurgency will end.
*Hold more elections still, and the insurgency will end.
*Pick a leader and the insurgency will end.
*Pick a leader that we agree with and the insurgency will end.
*Kill all 987 of Al Qaeda number 2 and the insurgency will end.
-GSD
I think it’s quite possible that the Iraqis with the best potential to lead their country are deliberately holding back so as not to be associated with their American oppressors if and when the Occupation ever ends.
I also firmly believe that the only way Iraq can possibly end up with a truly representative form of government will be AFTER we are gone and they have, one way or another, duked it out among themselves.
As far as womens’ rights? Like Palestine, it was a pretty well-educated, secular place — and like Palestine, it will become ever more fundamentalist as the Occupation brutally grinds on.
Oh, and Resistance to an illegal occupation, btw, is legal under International Law: Nathan Hale and Patrick Henry are not terrorists, they are American heroes.
GSD, I really like your 14, thanks.
“do nothing and everything will be done” -chinese proverb
it’s like a hybrid game that combines russian roulette and chicken. any group of iraqis that form a “government” is signing it’s collective death warrant. they will be hunted down like dogs and tortured, shot, decapitated, blown up, or some combination of the above. oh, and i forgot, pissed on and set on fire.
so, taylor, does that clear up why things keep getting postponed? i.e., to do otherwise is unwise? insane? bad for one’s health and well-being? foolish?
the descent into ever worsening chaos and horror will not stop. the bush administration has fixed the game where the iraqis can’t win. but the cruel joke has evolved now to the point where the u.s. can’t “win” either. no, matter, what, we, do.
i agreed with john murtha when he layed out his plan to end our presence in iraq. at least it was honest and straightforward.
iraq and the iraqis are screwed. time for us to stop whistling past the graveyard and get our people out of there. buildings are just concrete and steel. they can be abandoned in good conscience. not so the human lives that keep being lost.
doesn’t the US owe Iraq and its people, like, well, reparations or something?
I dunno — I think the worst is yet to come in Iraq, and there is nothing anyone can co about it. George Bush can screw things up, but he can’t make them better. Implementing some variation of the Murtha/Kerry programs is the best option for the USA, letting Iraqis sort out their own problems.
Like someone (Sy Hersh? Larry Johnson?) said when Bush invaded: “We’re fucked.”
Taylor, I am very, very troubled by your post. It sounds a great deal like blaming the victim.
I believe that a lack of government in Iraq suits the Americans just fine, and the only government they would accept would be puppet regime of some kind. I would not be at all surprised if the Americans were sabotaging the process of forming a government. And this sentence is nothing short of perverse:
“George W. Bush has not put near enough pressure on the Iraqis to get on with doing what the Iraqi people risked their lives to create, a government all of their own in Iraq.”
This was an invasion, Taylor, not a coup. You make it sound like this was was some sort of voluntary nation-building activity entered into by the the Iraqis. Don’t you think Bush has put quite enough pressurs on the Iraqis? You people have created absolute chaos in Iraq, and now it’s their fault that they don’t have a government? When bare survival is a constant concern? How can they “get their act together” as you so charmingly phrased it, when basic services are lacking, when families have been uprooted and destroyed, lives lost, bodies maimed, and day-to-day survival is an issue? And you’re concerned about YOUR blood and treasure?
This is not they kind of comment I usually write here, but your US-centric view of this is breathtaking. This type of attitude is why so many people hate your country.
What possible impetus do they have to form said govt when we don’t respect the one they elected? We continue to undermine and not work with other properly and duly elected governments in the region– think Hamas, Ahmedinajad. We are ok with King Karzai cause we installed him. Their is no security in that country. How can you even form a government under occupation? We must leave. The entire ‘policy’ in the region is a disaster.
Thanks ET for your detailed take on Mike Gravel– it should be a good stirring of the pot!
OT
Ryan found guilty on all counts and faces up to 20 years for the racketering charge, the most serious.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld.....362131.htm
Ms. Marsh, a deadline is fine. I’ve got no problem with that…and I like Kerry’s proposal. I think….you’re applying too much “common sense and logic” towards solving the problem, without looking at it thru the WH lens. The WH, for a host of reasons, cannot apply your simple and straight-forward solution. They are stuck.
Now, I DO AGREE that the Dems ought to take a louder stand on the Kerry idea…or any idea which urges strong talk. The dems can make this a winning issue.
A dark thought: what if….what if the Iraquis suddenly got more politically adept, and all factions began announcing loudly and stridently that they’re ready to get the gov’t going…as soon as America vacates their lands! Boy oh boy, what a pickle that puts the WH in.
Ghostman
Fitz news:
Ryan found guilty of all charges, faces up to 20 years on most serious count
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12356536/
there, not their. grr.
I find this article to be disturbingly ahistorical. The notion on display here is that the civil war is caused by, or at least perpetuated by the failure of the Iraqi’s to form a government. The notion is that those feckless Iraqi’s are lollygagging around while the US spends blood and treasure.
The reality on the ground is much different. Iraqi politicans and leaders risk their lives to assassination every day. Every trip, every meeting may be their last. It defies credibility to suggest that they’re feckless or irresponsible. They are a group who are facing appalling conditions on every front.
Moreover, its questionable what, if anything, they can do, except to put an Arab face on an American occupation. All of the decision making power, the transitional laws, pretty much every significant decision in the country is being made by the US. So what’s the point? A ‘unity’ government under American occupation may have no more credibility than the Vichy regime. More to the point, they’ve got no power to affect anything, and the Iraqi’s know it.
And the article ignores the role of the United States in helping to create and perpetuate the civil war and to manipulate elections and interfere with the Iraqi’s political process. The present impasse is largely one of American manufacture.
So let’s not blame the Iraqi’s. The meme of Iraqi ingratitude stands as remarkably offensive.
one more thought:
an irony:
saddam tortured. we torture.
saddam built palaces in honor of himself.
grandiose architectural monuments.
we build grandiose architectural monuments.
one thing remains to be done:
a large statue of george w. bush on the spot where saddam’s statue was toppled.
have a nice day!
In light of all that has happened how can this expectation of “legitimate government formation”……be seriously debated.
Kinda like washing your car in the middle of a dusty shit storm….
it will never turn out right.
The Bush Administration is out of options. The only option open to this Adminstration is a war in Iran.
We lost Iraq the day we handed power to the Dawa party. Here’s a rundown of the history of our sorry involvement. Enjoy the trip down memory lane and let me know what you think.
What Swopa said at #27. I think you may be listening what the US is saying instead of watching what they’re doing, and at risk of piling on I think I have a helpful metaphor.
What we’re actually doing is stomping on the gas while also stomping on the brakes. We want the front of the car (forming a government) to move, but we want the back of the car (US influence/permanent presence) to stay where it is.
It doesn’t work that way. We are already applying all the pressure we can. The problem is that we’re applying it in two conflicting ways. Condi et al keep saying that we want the Iraqis to form a government, but at the same time, they keep trying to divide-and-conquer the UIA coalition, so that Jaafari doesn’t get the PM post.
It ain’t gonna work. Nothing’s gonna work till we have somebody else in charge.
Like someone (Sy Hersh? Larry Johnson?) said when Bush invaded: “We’re fucked.â€
That was Joe Wilson, in an interview with Josh Marshall at TPM in Sept. ‘03 or thereabouts. Though others may have expressed the same sentiment. :)
… as Kerry and others have said, that if the Iraqis don’t form a government we need to start withdrawing troops. They wouldn’t have voted without deadlines and I feel the same about the government. Give them a deadline and if they don’t get it done we’ll leave.
As I wrote at Needlenose at the time of Kerry’s NYT editorial, he’s totally wrong in thinking a deadline will help.
You tell them U.S. troops are leaving, and the thugs masquerading as Iraqi politicians will be backed further in a corner and be even less reluctant to compromise — because priority #1 will be preparing to fight it out after we’ve gone.
Which, in fact, is what they’ve been doing for the past couple of years anyway. Which is why there’s no “unity” for a national government to promote.
I think we have a classic “mexican standoff.”
The govt they can put together has Jaffera as prime minister who we loathe.
Fine, we don’t want him, we get nothing.
NO SOUP FOR YOU, GEORGE BUSH.
I also agree that they know we’re not going anywhere so why take charge of this mess.
The “floor” is not Iraq. Sunni Shi’a acrimony is a fact throughout the Middle East, so is the Kurdish minority. A civil war in Iraq could spread throughout the region, which is why everyone who knew something about the Middle East (except the neocons) told Bush/Cheney not to invade in the first place.
A general increase in hostilities could push the price of oil over $100 a barrel.
This pushes the discussion back to Dubai. Bush supports Dubai unequivocally because it is across the Straits of Hormuz from Iran. 25% of the world’s oil flows through that two-mile-wide, two-way channel that is about 100 meters deep. Sink a couple of oil tankers in that channel and the price of oil goes a lot higher than $100/barrel, until they are removed.
Forming an independent government in Iraq, especially one with any claim to power that would enable Iraq to reassert dominion over itself is not an agenda item with traction for some of the parties concerned…including the Bush administration, IMO.
This is not to say that lip service won’t continue to be paid in abundance for media consumption of the concept domestically, of course…as the public’s conditioned response to the 1-2 of soothing propaganda and real-time inaction and neglect is part of the playbook for the fictively enhanced ‘democracy lite’ being foisted as a cloudy pretense of regency, created to provide a plausible cover for the turmoil necessary to continue furtive strategic repositioning.
Until U.S. policy is seen to change fundamentally (with proactive troop drawdown/redeployment and investigation of administration misdeeds, for example), there will be little ‘motivation’ on the part of the varied strata of Iraqi interests to form a working coalition apart from U.S. support…And, in fact, the internal and external elements dedicated to exploiting the chaos inherent in the situation will short-circuit that motivation at every opportunity.
A federal jury convicted former Gov. George Ryan today on all charges that as secretary of state he steered state business to cronies in return for vacations, gifts and other benefits for himself and his family.
SNIP
The story doesn’t mention what party he belongs to. Free flag pin to anyone who wants to guess…..
Sorry for the OT: Here’s the rest:
Ryan, 72, faces up to 20 years in prison for racketeering conspiracy, the most serious of the charges in the 22-count indictment.
The jury found him guilty on all charges.
Ryan was accused of steering big-money state contracts and leases, including a $25 million IBM computer deal, to his friends and political insiders.
In return, Ryan was rewarded with annual winter vacations in Jamaica, stays in Cancun and Palm Springs and gifts ranging from a golf bag to $145,000 in loans to his brother’s business, prosecutors said.
Swopa, if you have the time or the incliniation, I am interested in your take on Hamas and Israel.
Radish, we can’t wait until someone else is in charge. And, Swopa, a deadline won’t stop the violence, of course not. But it’s a way to force a break. Regardless of the criticism and disagreements, which I can take, no problem, we still need a government, violence and all. No it won’t stop it. But we owe it to the Iraqi people to push the Iraqi elite, the legislators now in power, to get a government in place, whatever it looks like.
Several comments well said, and to the real point. Being handed a flaming sack of shiite, sunni and kurd is not an incentive that would motivate anyone…
Nice job, FITZ! George Ryan was found guilty.
jafaari was going to ask the US to leave and we nixed him because of that. besides, what about the upcoming ‘pacification ‘ of bagdad? the next falluja? i’ll find the link, the news came out last week. they are going to isolate all the different areas(beginning w/sunni’s) and do a ’sweep’. it’s all planned out. i’ll go find link somewhere.
Ryan=Republican
-GSD
taylor, ‘we’ don’t need a government in iraq, they do.
Shargash - Sounds about right. Bush is buying time - the Embassy needs to be completed and fortified before troops are “pulled out”. We’re there to protect the oil supply, not the Iraqi people’s freedom to choose their system of governance. And chronic low-grade chaos in Iraq will keep any faction from gaining enough power to wrestle control of the oil away from US.
I really would like to see them form a strong government of their own - but that’s not what Bush wants, and that’s why he’s not applying effective or meaningful pressure on the Iraqis to do so.
Mash 61
Correct you are.
ON TOPIC: GREAT JOB FOR $6,000 PER HOUR SALARY.
Last year, Exxon made the biggest profit of any company ever, $36 billion, and its retiring chairman appears to be reaping the benefits.
Exxon is giving Lee Raymond one of the most generous retirement packages in history, nearly $400 million, including pension, stock options and other perks, such as a $1 million consulting deal, two years of home security, personal security, a car and driver, and use of a corporate jet for professional purposes.
Last November, when he was still chairman of Exxon, Raymond told Congress that gas prices were high because of global supply and demand.
While I agree with the overall implication of your post, I think you’ve missed the mark somewhat in getting there. In particular, this did not ring true to me:
I think the important point is not that they’re “taking their time,” it’s that by staying indefinitely, we’ve given them no incentive to compromise.
Oil Rises to $70 a Barrel in New York on Iran Supply Concern
April 17 (Bloomberg) — Crude oil rose, touching $70 a barrel in New York for the first time since Hurricane Katrina, on concern the dispute over Iran’s nuclear program may disrupt shipments.
With Ryan down, maybe we’ll soo some Fitz action.
Swopa #63 –
Do you see anything that can induce positive developments? Or are we at the point of Murtha style slo-mo cut and run?
George W. Bush Iraq Statue Committe Recommendations:
I propose a giant lady liberty statue but half sunk in a giant pool of oil as in the Planet of the Apes closing scene…Instead of the face of lady liberty, the face of George W. Bush only semi morphed into a chimp face…Also, instead of the lady liberty crown, George the Persecuted can wear a crown of thorns. Also, the torch should not work, it should only cast shadows, not light.
-GSD
Whos moderating this thread?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a.....97,00.html
here it is london times
“US plots ‘new liberation of Baghdad’
THE American military is planning a “second liberation of Baghdad†to be carried out with the Iraqi army when a new government is installed.
Pacifying the lawless capital is regarded as essential to establishing the authority of the incoming government and preparing for a significant withdrawal of American troop
Strategic and tactical plans are being laid by US commanders in Iraq and at the US army base in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, under Lieutenant- General David Petraeus. He is regarded as an innovative officer and was formerly responsible for training Iraqi troops.
Sources close to the Pentagon said Iraqi forces would take the lead, supported by American air power, special operations, intelligence, embedded officers and back-up troops.
Helicopters suitable for urban warfare, such as the manoeuvrable AH-6 “Little Birds†used by the marines and special forces and armed with rocket launchers and machineguns, are likely to complement the ground attack. ”
oh, that out to really help the new iraqi gov. fallujah all over
I see the root of the problem differently.
The Shiite parties are causing the impasse because they effectively benefit from it. They have the U.S. military acting as their personal bully-boy in their turf war with the Sunnis.
There already is a civil war, and the U.S. is fighting with the Shiite side against the Sunni side, by virtue of the fact that the puppet governemnt is Shiite dominated.
Where, in this scenario, is the incentive for SCIRI, DAWA, and Muqtada to do anything different from what they are doing now — standing back as the Sunnis and the occupier bloody each other?
They voted. They HAVE a gov’t, whether they choose to use it or not.
Time to go. Now.
But, as we see w/bases and that holy horror of an ‘embassy’, we’re goin’ nowhere fast.
Bush has said it’ll be up to FUTURE presidents to get out…
Ya kinda hafta wanna. And we don’t.
Everyone better get used to it: War IS Peace. Freedom IS Slavery. Ignorance IS Strength.
Yep. ‘We’re FUCKED.’
I don’t have time to read through all comments, but stopped at markefromireland #10: Mark is correct, Bush has been meddling in choice of Iraqi PM, though I have never seen this reported in corrupt US corporate media at all. The corporate media have uniformly and falsely advertised it as purely a problem of Iraqi compromise. We’ll never know whether original deal would have gone through, but it is a fact that Bush demanded a change in PM and killed the prospective Iraqi government deal several weeks ago. The stories about this being a 100% Iraqi issue are lies and disinformation, (or, it could be called incomplete reporting, I guess, to put lipstick on a pig).
I think BushCo doesn’t really mind the delay at all. I have become so cynical that I think BushCo thinks it can handle low level civil anarchy/war, and if US losses are kept down to 1 or 2 a day, can hang in there. BushCo needs Iraqi disorder to justify keeping their brand new giant airbases there.
In fact, some sources have reported that real reason BushCo didn’t want Jafaari was that Jafaari was planning a fast track for US withdrawal. BushCo’s interference had more to do with that than concern for Iraqi consensus.
Bush will declare “Mission Accomplished, Again”
Meanwhile, today in the most dangerous city in the world…or the home of chirping birds and nice falafel stands if you watch Fox News:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....hdA–
Also, if anyone wants to check out the Log Cabin Republican site go ahead. First go to ThinkProgress and read the new Bushco mandate that all gays better be celibate. Needless to say, I let the folks at Log Cabin know that they are collaborating in their own demise if they continue to support the party of Michael Savage, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
-GSD
Fitz has let us down completely:
http://www.house.gov/hinchey/F.....inchey.pdf
One page pdf linked at Rep. Hinchey’s site. Why did it take Fitz SIX MONTHS to offer his REFUSAL TO INVESTIGATE THE NIGER FORGERIES as requested by Rep. Hinchey and 39 other Democrats?
Looks to me as if the Iraqis are following the same pattern they followed with the constitution.
They met and tried to resolve differences- they couldn’t. Eventually Clusterfuck blustered and threatened them- so they threw some shit against the wall and called it a constitution. Within days they were talking about the need to change it.
Now we have em meeting and arguing- and again they don’t make progress- so again they will probably be led by the scruffs of their necks to do SOMETHING- and it will be a disaster again.
More talk doesn’t necessarily bridge differences or lead to a more acceptable solution. The problem is that there IS NO ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION.
I agree with Taylor Marsh that there needs to be an Iraqi government asap. There is the question of whether it is in the interests of Bushco to have a true independent Iraqi government or not. I, and I think several other commenters, believe signs point to no. BushCo wants a puppte govt. and is willing to live with choas until that can be achieved.
You write as if getting a government approved in Iraq will fix things. It won’t. Any government that can be named will be negotiated by giving the various factions little pieces of the government, and those pieces of the government (the Interior ministry; provincial governments, the army) will just be used by the various factions to fight each other while the former exiles move as much loot as they can out of the country, to support them when they go back into exile.
New poll from Gallup- Clusterfuck at 36% JAR- congress at 25% or so as is the “right track/ wrong track number.
Pitiful.
Nice post, Taylor. Too rarely does a poster set up an argument that all the FDL’ers can jump on and gleefully demolish. I will admit that I read the post twice, just to confirm my initial reation. Usually, I find myself nodding my head in agreement at FDL. A nice change of pace to be able to disagree, in a civilized and restrained manner.
Goddamn ingrate Iraqis, you’d think they’d have some consideration for us. We go to all the trouble of blowing their country up and then they have the gall to dawdle on something as easy as setting up a working government in the midst of a Civil War. You’d