Fitz.

1. The Congressional Black Caucus is entirely Democratic, amazingly progressive and utterly religious…

2. In response to the election of born-again Jimmy Carter, GOP operatives organized “The Moral Majority” headed by Jerry Falwell, to harvest the Evangelical vote. They’ve been working it ever since…

Ralph Reed and Pat Robertson’s Christian Action Coalition (the successor to Moral Majority) is over $2,000,000 in debt and is collapsing…

in Indianapolis, our African-American Congresswoman is having Barney Frank drop in for a fundraiser … today she is at 3 church services. She’s a proud Baptist and just loves her buddy Barney…

Taylor’s on a roll!! These fools who know no history and only believe in a future in terms of the rapture. G*d help us all!!

_The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America_ by Frank Lambert is a fine book. Last summer, I read Susan Jacoby’s _Freethinkers_. It touches upon some of the same material, and is one of the best defenses of American secularism I’ve ever read.

Amy Sullivan is an idiot. She continues to spread Republican talking points about Democrats being hostile to religious voters while ignoring the vast numbers of existing Democratic religious voters.

She’s repeatedly failed to give any examples of how the Democratic Party has been alienating religious voters, as she’s charged.

I notice that you, too, don’t give any specifics about how Democrats are “helping” the religious right to keep the culture wars brewing.

Who was the last secular humanist Democratic Presidential candidate?

Thomas Jefferson produced his own version of the bible. The Thomas Jefferson Bible is a pretty thin little book — it’s just the words of Christ. You know, just the important stuff. The word of God, indeed.

You all heard of Red Letter Christians? It’s the most well-known name for the movement of progressive evangelicals. Where, you ask, did they get that name? Well, in many bibles, the words of Christ are printed in red, and these evangelicals seem to think they’re the most important part. You know, the parts about mercy, forgiveness, humility, charity, love, peace, brother(-and-sister-)hood, about helping the poor and the sick, about (did I mention?) love.

TJ and the Red Letter Christians are a natural fit, in fact you might say he wrote a bible just for them. I’m glad they’re starting to get organized, and I can’t wait to start seeing them on TV and hearing them on the radio. Americans (including my room mate) need to realize that the homophobes and the holy-haters are a minority in our religion, and you don’t have to be a bigot to be a good Christian.

The essence of the Democratic creede is very close to the teachings of Jesus — if our team can weave these truths into our message, it will go a long way to levelling the field.

Why do the GOP and the so-called* Christian Right hate Jesus?

#8 — *

The so-called Christian Right — they are not Christain, and they are not right.

Religious credentials have long been required in American politics. After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 it was particularly important for politicians to profess a belief in some sort of god in order to prove you weren’t a godless anarchist commie…

“It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
I was thinking this same thing this morning after watching a tiny bit of Falwell on one of the morning shows.

AWESOME post Taylor. The Base is where the support is ultimately rooted. Weakening the Base’s support is the final domino.

I got to talk to Kevin Phillips (American Theocracy author) and asked how best to take Bush down another 10 points in the polls. He said that if the Democrats pushed the Fake Christian theme, they could shave 6-8 points off in short order, pushing it down into the Nixon Range. He said the radical Base is getting frustrated on the one hand with lack of progress and the moderate Base has the feeling of being painted with a bad brush on the other. This squares with your quoted observations:

-As Jim Wallis, author of “God’s Politics” has said over and over again, what the religious right is offering America when it comes to faith, war and policies is not the direction most liberal evangelicals want to go. Going further, some religious leaders are separating themselves from Falwell and the “left behind” rapture crowd. It’s giving Karl Rove “heartburn,” according to Amy Sullivan.-

Thanks, Ed*ard Teller, and let’s not get distracted by Sullivan, who does just what you say at times, but in this article offers some good information, imho.

Nice post, Michael. I just knew someone would point out TJ’s personal Bible.

A little OT but it seems relevant to this thread as well. Since it highlites the worse kind of conservative close-mindedness. Re-posted from talking head thread.

I’m sittin’ here at my ‘puter with CNN on for background noise. (I know, I’m a masochistic freak that way) and the grand cermudgeon himself, Jack Cafferty just ‘weighed in’ on the Moussaui trial.

According to Jack, there are “many ways†to administer the ‘Death Penalty’. Including just “sentencing him to life in prison and then throwing him into General Population at the toughest Federal Pen aroundâ€. Then according to Jack, “The lads will take care of thingsâ€.

Yuck, yuck… Oh those kooky “lads†are sure reliable that way aren’t they Jack? wink, wink…

He summed it all up by washing his hands of it and pretending he no longer cared aboutr the outcome, just as long as it hurry up and got here.

Is this what kind of scum is passing for ‘Cable News’ now?

On a Postcard-beatiful Hawaii Easter Sunday morning, I turn on the television to catch a bit of “news†and our resident National Grumpy Conservative Crazy Irish Curmudgeony Blowhard Grandpa figure is promoting DEATH BY ARYAN MOB JUSTICE in Federal Prisons?

WTF…?

Happy Easter to you to… JACK!

I hope C&L can get a copy of that clip. It happened at the beginning of “In The Money” on CNN.

The Righteous Righties advocate war yet also advocate a pro-life stance.
WHA WHAA WHAAA???

Save the unborn, so as they can be raised to go off and kill or be killed for the nation. That’s not pro-life.

Fertility clinics throw out thousands of fertilized blastocyst daily, and yet the pro-life RR out there have successfully blocked the notion of donation to a higher cause. The donation of the embryo for stem cell research so as to help give life.

To me, this is exactly why it is immoral to legislate religious doctrines into effect. They end up contradicting themselves.

I’m sorry, but this kind of post annoys me. The Democratic Party has always been a party of faith and has never been run by the secular folks within it. The idea that it is unwelcoming to people of faith and needs to change its attitude comes from the Right and the Republican Party – not the secular members of the Democratic Party, who generally have no problem with people of faith. Digby and Tristero have had a series of posts that have debunked this idea over and over.

The Right are not going to stop implying that the Left are anti-Christian, no matter what those on the Left say. It would be nice if people on the Left wouldn’t help them in perpetuating this fallacy by continually saying that we need to “be more tolerant” and “reach out to people of faith”. We ARE tolerant and we DO work with (and vote for) people of faith.

Find me an example of secularists within the Democratic Party attacking people of faith and maybe I’ll change my mind, but until then I think posts like this do more to perpetuate the idea that Democrats are anti-religion than anything else.

Nate– Jack may be sad to learn that Negroponte (war criminal) hasn’t officially sanctioned death for all, just indefinite detainment in secret…

Negroponte also told TIME that three dozen or so of the worst al-Qaeda terrorists held in secret CIA prisons are likely to remain in captivity as long as the “war on terror continues.” He added, “These people are being held. And they’re bad actors. And as long as this situation continues, this war on terror continues, I’m not sure I can tell you what the ultimate disposition of those detainees will be.” Negroponte’s comments appear to be the first open acknowledgement of the secret U.S. detention system and the fact that captives such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammad — involved in Sept. 11 or other major attacks on U.S. interests around the world — may be held indefinitely.

http://www.time.com/time/natio…..-1,00.html

Of the first 18 Presidents, 5 were non-church members (or non-communicants), and 2 were Unitarian heretics. Many were very lax Episcopalians. Several only became church members late in life.

Jackson and Polk were seemingly lifelong Presbyterians and may have been devout. There may have been a couple of others, but by and large the Presidents seem to have been either Sunday Christians born into a church, or else weak non-denominational Christians, and many of them had a tendency toward Unitarian or Deist heresies.

The political Christians are not ashamed to lie about these facts. I am not hostile to Christianity but the secularity of the American tradition should not be forgotten.

Presidents’ religion

Taylor,
The link to Waldman goes to Amy’s article. Both links go to Amy’s article.

It’s probably wrong to suggest that the religious right is “pro war”. Most of them apparently support THIS war- for a variety of reasons- including the fact that Clusterfuck told em from the beginning that God told him to invade Iraq. They are not pacifists- and there are few pacifists in this country- but they are not for any old war.

As Kevin Phillips points out- they are specifically against war for economic gain- which is why Clusterfuck could NEVER tell them the truth about Iraq. War for Oil is not Godly- no matter how ya spin it.

Was Mark Twain a democrat?

BINGO!. Ms. Marsh, you’ve scored a touchdown and a homerun all rolled up in one. This very article of yours should be the subject of intense discussion (behind closed doors) of Democratic leaders. True, we’ll never get 100% of “evangelicals”….but there’s plenty of room for many of them in the Democratic party.
My own scattered thoughts:
1. We should stop “wagging our finger” at evangelicals who want to amend the constitution. A more powerful message could be that we respect your rights to your beliefs, the problem is that, the way our forefathers set up our country, religion needs to be more of a personal matter.
2. On the public stage, debating Falwell on the premise that his political goals are just not the way this country was formed could have some traction….be one must be careful to avoid finger wagging as I mentioned above.
3. Image and message: face it, that jerk Rove HAS great talent here. But we can be, and are, as smart as him.
a) look at the Falwell quote in Ms. Marsh’s article above…something to the effect that democrats will never have our support as long as they’re pro-choice (abortion), and pro- gay marriage. Wait a sec. “Pro”? As in, I am “pro” Dallas Cowboys (yep!)….I CHEER them on. (yep!) BUT:
b) I AM NOT “pro” abortion! I do NOT “cheer” and go “ra ra ra” everytime I hear of an abortion somewhere…or learn that a woman made that choice. We need to LOSE the word “pro”. Instead, borrow from Howard Dean, who awhile back said on TV something like “we think the government should stay out of a family’s personal decisions”…or something like that. WORDS COUNT.
(c) “PRO” gay marriage: same as above. I don’t go “yippe yi oh kayee” everytime I see a couple of gay guys strolling down the street! I don’t “cheer them on”! Hell, truth be told, I don’t even want to see them kissing each other…but by golly, let the gov’t stay OUT of their personal lives. It sounds MUCH better.
Image and words are powerful when used smartly. I bet there’s tons of folks out there much smarter than me who can even craft the message better than me. And, getting to work on crafting an approach to evangelicals is a good road to go down.
Ms. Marsh, your article is brilliant. Thank you. Ghostman

The religious right thinks that dems are anti religious because they are in favor of abortion rights.

The Fallwellians have managed to twist this issue into one that defines faith- although you will not find ONE WORD about it in the Bible.

Most christian conservatives have accepted that line.

By the way- the mainstream religions in this country tend to be liberal- go to a Presbyterian USA or northern Methodist or Episcopalian church and you won’t hear any of the Falwell bullshit.

The problem is that these churches are losing out to the Southern Baptist convention.

Perception is reality. Many people in America have a perception that Democrats are “hostile” to people of faith. People of faith feel, rightly or wrongly, that we are hostile. Right-wing radio and Christian broadcasting, in conjunction with right-wing evangelicals, have perpetuated it through a constant campaign that it is true and the media has helped it along.

By the way, it was Amy Sullivan who said Democrats are “hostile” to faith, not me.

The point of my post was quite different. Remember, that’s our image, which has nothing to do with reality. However, that doesn’t mean you don’t have to deal with the perception. To do that takes actions, not just words. Reaching out to Randy Brinson means a lot more than what I can do on the printed page.

…and thanks Ghostman.

Dems aren’t going to “get” the southern baptist vote–not now- not ever.

They already HAVE much of the mainstream christian vote- the battle is probably over catholics more than anything. Dems always had em- and now they’re losing many of em. Some of em got rich and went gooper- others are following Fallwell into a spiritual wilderness- and of course the Pope’s a Nazi.

Of course on a local level- dems can do fine. Wyoming, Virginia, Montana- all have dem governors. It’s the national races where the cultural conservatives fight dems the hardest.

Thanks, smiley, it’s fixed now.

Love your style Taylor- Y’all come back now- ya hear?

You seem to support the Democratic party becoming the “not Republican Party”.

This is why the GOP continues to win. They are united (more or less), while we are united only in our opposition to them.

Thank you for the Jefferson quote on top, I’ve always loved it. How far we have devolved from our founders and the Enlightenment thinking they embodied.

You don’t have to believe in God, Buddha or Allah to respect the power, not to mention the practicalities, of reaching out to people of all types of faith.

Taylor, “God/Buddha/Allah” – is a mistaken conflation. The Buddha (meaning: enlightened one) is not a deity that one “believes in,” he was a human teacher and most every school of Buddhism is antithetical to the sky-god-creator bases of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

It’s an important distinction. The sky-god religions by their very nature plug more into reptile-brain tendencies of rigidity and fundamentalism. How is one to “reach out” to somebody whose “faith” is “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” In much of our world, this results in the stoning of women to death for having sex, the executing of gay people, and every manner of similar bullshit atrocity.

This is not any actual “power,” nor do I respect it. It is brainwashing and ignorance and at the root of the entire blooksoaked history of the human race.

I am wary of the notion of making some kind of common cause with people who presume to act on what their Omnipotent Imaginary Friend wants us all to do. Jefferson and the founders HATED this shit and struck out in a bold and consciously different direction away from it.

For my money, today’s Jefferson is Rev. Barry Lynn who heads Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. This organization is about respect for everyone’s “faith” but don’t you dare presume to tyrannize anyone’s life or choices with your inarguable god-says-this crap. This country and its incredibly beautiful First Amendment were founded on distinctly limiting the historic reptile brain sky god toddler murder mentality.

And btw no insult meant to decent and sincere non-murderous Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It’s not you that I nor Jefferson are talking about.

As a non-believer, I have no problem, in principle, working with religious people when our goals are the same. I’m all for inclusiveness, and frankly don’t give a damn what anyone’s religious views are anyway (except as how they are important to you). Unfortunately, whenever I hear people talking about mixing religion and politics, I get a bad feeling.

Why does environmentalism need to be couched in Christian terms for people to pay attention? Isn’t the idea that if we aren’t careful this planet might be unfit for human habitation enough? This may explain why non-believers tend to mistrust the faithful – it just seems so damned irrational to think this way.

I also distrust any talk of “inclusion” of faith because what it often seems to mean is the exclusion of those who don’t have faith. I’m used to hearing on an almost daily basis that Christians are under threat in this country, even though they’re 80% of the population. What “threats” do they perceive? They can’t put their religious symbols on public grounds unless everyone’s religion is represented. They can’t make “under God” part of the pledge of allegience to a country that has as one of its founding principles that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. People are inclined to say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” in order to acknowledge that nearly every religion on the planet celebrates the winter solstice.

In the last decade, I can only recall three regular characters on TV that were non-believers. All were on science fiction shows, and one was an alien. Yet the faithful complain that religion is denigrated on TV.

Let’s just say that there’s been a lot of mistrust built up over the years. I mistrust any talk of getting religion into politics because it is in politics, and on just about every conceivable side. Even if people have religious convictions that support my side of an issue, I’m suspicious. As someone observed here recently, Christians were a lot more pacifist when they were the minority religion. If there’s any better example of why actions speak louder than words, then I don’t know about it.

Dems are united on the things they are united on- equal protection and opportunity- policies that benefit ALL americans and not just the rich and powerful- a small but viable safety net- environmental protection. Regulatory agencies that actually regulate- etc.

They are NOT united on support for the war in Iraq- or on abortion- or on gay rights- or on drug legalization- BUT NEITHER ARE THE GOOPERS>

1,025 DAYS SINCE THE WAR BEGAN

Shalom to all on this day of redemption in Christian mythology, let’s remember that folks are still dyin’ and constitutional government is another day removed from us.

All this tuggin’ on forlocks and beatin’ the breast over how to win over or peel off some number of “religious voters” is jest so much self-flagalatiion. If elected Democrats at all levels just stood up for religious freedom and keeping the federal government and tax dollars out of the pulpit, the “religious right” voters would be cut in half. Those elected folks who are Xtian can do what the Big Dog did and quote populist scripture or Vatican II while the Jewish electeds ken quote the Old Testament passages of sinners in the hands of an angry god. And the humanist-secularists ken jest condescendingly preach freedom for mindless ignorance.

We have enabled the very small number of the right wing pseudo religious by takin them seriously. This fruitcake religiousity hasta be confronted by everyone in the rational majority but especially the rational “believers”. Real Chritians get off yer knees and put these hypocrits and blasphemers out into the ether with Jimmi Hendrixx!!

Enough of this whinnin’ about the power of the religious right…put on yer steel-toed boots, stand up and kick some pseudochristian ass!!!

KEEP THE FAITH WHILE YOU STILL HAVE IT, GOD IS WATCHIN’ YOU!!!

Btw, Taylor you’ve been just awesome these couple days – thanks for the great posts and also comment interaction – you do the Jane & Redd house proud.

Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should ever be inflicted upon children.

With Republicans, the political corollary applies as well, and we should never tolerate any GOP attempts to engage in the practice of either (religion or sodomy) in the name, or on the behalf, of our government.
sláinte,
cl

Dems believe that relgion/faith spirituality is a pro choice matter. Interfaith Alliance, Seperation of Church and State support religious diversity. “I will not support the anti Christ” was Robertson’s response to inclusion/acceptance of other faiths. Catholics, Protestants and all faiths will turn on each other, after they achieve their theocracy goals. The chief aggressors of course, would be the loudmouths like Robertson, Falwell, Randall Terry…turning on the Catholics, Methodists, et al.

By the way, the punditry are talkin about a new religious awakening on college campuses- which makes the gooper’s peckers rise- but then when they look at it a little more closely- they discover that the religious revivial is heavy into peace, stewardship, and charity- so they’re startin ta go limp!

On the Bible–It’s a BIG book- if ya wanna search for stuff that supports your prejudices- you’ll find it.

You can do that with the US constitution too RW just ask Justice Va Fanculo or George W. Clusterfuck

Why the GOP appears united-
It’s easy to be united when the common goal is greed and all for yourself. Their beliefs are everyone should look and act like them and if you don’t, you don’t belong.
The dems believe that everyone has an important role and has a right to existence. We care that everyone has equality. That belief will give the appearance of not being united.

Goopers are aided by the fact that any american household that makes over $70,000 per year thinks that they are rich and want their taxes reduced.

Taylor, you’re extremely intelligent & you see all the nuances but unless the democrats stop pandering to the right [take hillary’s warmongering, for instance], they’re going to lose my vote forever — i fail to see why secularists need to apologize for existing

as to buddha, spelunkers in india found an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features — to say that he was a real person is absurd — he’s just another fairy tale being like all the rest

Out of curiousity, in what denomination may our current president claim membership? He’s supposed to be a Methodist, but my understanding is that the United Methodist Church has officially demanded that he “repent” of his errant ways before he can be considered a member in good standing.. doesn’t that make him a heretic? http://www.theymustrepent.com/ for amusing reading (a nonofficial draft of formal charges of heresy to be brought against the president…) :)

The plain facts:

Since the unholy alliance between the Zionists and the Christian Zionists:

Almost a hundred thousand Christians have lost their homes, businesses, farms and dignity in Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

An ages-old coalition between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon has collapsed, forcing tens of thousands of Christians out of their homes, businesses, farms and dignity in Lebanon.

The secular government in Iraq has been destroyed by the USA, leading to a shocking erosion of rights for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians.

This issue has seldom been comprehensively covered in the mainstream US press or TV/radio. Evangelicals don’t give credence to the kinds of sects which have survived in the Middle East and Southwest Asia since the time of Christ. Their uncharitable neglect of this issue will no doubt contribute to the fungelicals being “left behind” should their rapture hopes come to pass.

WHAT NORSKE SAID! KEEP THE FAITH, THIS IS A SECULAR COUNTRY DESIGNED TO PROTECT EVERYBODY’S RIGHT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING BUT NOT TO LET RELIGIO-FREAKS LIKE PAT ROBERTSON AND FRED PHELPS OWN THE JOINT!

Well, the “keep the faith” part was Norske, anyway
:)

I think it all boils down to philosophy. It’s the stand one takes with respect to whether you believe, as do the Republicans that men and women are born of a natural pre-ordained, pre-programmed propensity to do be selfish and do bad things. Or do we stand with traditional Democratic reasoning which teaches us, that human kind has a built in social contract consciousness to do good, have compassion, and help those who need a hand-up, and above all recoginize the intrinsic goodness of justice and what is fair. The eternal struggle then is between the Thomas Hobbs world view expressed in the “Leviathan”, that human beings are purely self-interested and that we must give ourselves over to an “unaccountable sovereign” (Bush) to decide what is wrong and right and keep ‘us in check’. Or do we instead choose to live our lives along the lines of utilitarianism (”the greatest happiness of the greatest number”)? I truly believe that real and true Democrats interprete and internalize the teachings, correctly, of the New Testament and the Golden Rule. And that Republicans of today do not. And that’s why I’m a Democrat.

undercoverdick — please point out where Taylor said he was a real person. As a practitioner of Zen I would agree that the conflation of Buddah, Allah and God is not correct but I do not think she misspoke in the way you said she did.

On this Easter, it is fitting that we should reflect on our good fortune that Tom Delay will soon gone from the halls of Congress.
After all, the man who said “let the people see Christ through me” and “people hate the messenger – that’s why they killed Christ” has never been shy about comparing himself to Jesus.
Here, then, is a look back at Easter Reflections on Tom Delay:

http://www.perrspectives.com/i…..032705.JPG

For more background on Tom Delay’s uses and abuses of Jesus, see:
“Tom Delay’s Christ Complex.”

Don’t think it really matters whether Buddah was a real person or not- why would anyone care?

OTT (Off Today’s Topic) but pursuant to a discussion here about a week ago…

Here is a good link to an animated discussion of the problems associated with using nuclear “bunker-busters” in Iran. Includes requested details, such as typical fallout map, estimate of deaths, etc. The information is consistent with the links I posted before, from the Federation of American Scientists. The plume calculated is for a megaton warhead, which is somewhat larger than I was discussing, but consistent with the stated Iran mission.

Attacking Iran with nuclear weapons would be insane. Even planning for it goes past beyond I consider to be reasonable. Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed of today’s “Fundie Father.”

The corporate Republican media has made the perception that ‘Democrats are atheists” a key meme foe decades…since the 70s anyway. It’s no wonder to me that 35 years of indoctrination on this point has made Democrats the Party of Atheists. I’m an agnostic when it comes to religious beliefs…but I have never had a problem with anyone believing whatever they want…as long as it doesn’t infringe on my rights to be agnostic.

Hopefully, people are starting to “get it” as far as the fundemental hypocrisy of the RW radical fundies who really don’t care much about beliefs, but do care a lot about political power and $. When the Republicans lose that base, they are done. Completely.

Edward T – it’s systematic enthic cleansing going on there. Hard to grasp but there it is.

Blub @ 1:13 pm (#46) – That letter was written in 2004. Haven’t they kicked Bush and Cheney out by now?

Remember that Clusterfuck threatened to use Nukes in Iraq- apparently it’s a part of his war buildup routine.

It may be too- that he’d really like to drop a few and see how big the “boom” is.

Kind of cute how GW Clusterfuck is so fascinated with nukes- sort of child like and lovable isn’t he?

Cowboys love smoky ol bar rooms and nuclear weapons.

It would be great, IMO if the following message could get some play in public discourse:

If you need to craft legislation to enforce the specific details of your moral and religious beliefs, it is a sign that you are a FAILURE at being an inspiring example of that faith.

True faith, lived simply and in humility, inspires others, and when it is undergirded (as it MUST be to be truly Christian) by unselfish love, it draws others like a magnet. If you cannot inspire others through the shining example of true piety, you are a FAILURE at “preaching the gospel.” Once you must hammer your target over the head with legislative force, you have signalled that failure.

In my life, I take it even a step further. I subscribe to the principle of Francis of Assisi, who said “Preach the gospel at all times, but use words only if you absolutely MUST.” And everyday people flocked to Francesco d’Assisi in the thousands, in the way it is said in the gospel that people flocked to Jesus.

If people have no idea by your very presence in the world that you are Christian, then all the talk in the world will not convince anyone who is discerning in matters of the spirit that you are. Clanging cymbals, and all that.

Thanks, sharkbabe. And yey, Blub, this is for you and anyone who is curious about George’s church going habits. Can you spell hypocrite? Perception is reality in politics.

What most–including many of the president’s fiercest supporters–don’t know, however, is that Bush doesn’t go to church. Sure, when he weekends at Camp David, Bush spends Sunday morning with the compound’s chaplain. And, every so often, he drops in on the little Episcopal church across Lafayette Park from the White House. But the president who has staked much of his domestic agenda on the argument that religious communities hold the key to solving social problems doesn’t belong to a congregation.

It should be a politically intriguing story. Bush is one of the most explicitly religious politicians in American history. Both of his presidential campaigns have used religion to appeal emotionally to voters. The entire philosophy behind his signature slogan, “compassionate conservatism,” rests on the belief that religious communities have a unique ability to tend to the nation’s social ills. And yet, after the flood of coverage around Bush’s first–and only–visit to a neighborhood church during inauguration weekend in Washington, D.C., no one has bothered to report on the president’s whereabouts on Sunday mornings.

Around Washington, D.C., it’s considered bad form to point out that Bush doesn’t regularly attend church. “You don’t have to go to church to be a good religious person,” argue his defenders. And they’re right. They have made much political hay, however, over polls that indicate Democratic voters attend church less frequently than Republicans, so even the most brazen feel compelled to offer explanations for Bush’s absence from church membership rolls. … …

Link: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i…..ivan101104

They already HAVE much of the mainstream christian vote- the battle is probably over catholics more than anything. Dems always had em- and now they’re losing many of em.

Demographics work to offset that. The growing conservatism of n-th generation Catholics happens as they move into the ‘burbs of Noonerville. But are Latino Catholics going to vote GOP when their churches are part of the anti-Tancredo movement? (Heck, Tancredo’s family is Catholic. Him? Not so much.)

What you have to remember is that Catholicism’s relationship to politics is a class function more than it is a theological function. My home-town church in the north of England still reflects its working class roots in Irish and Italian immigration; many parishes in London and Oxford, out of the Cardinal Newman tradition, are much more hoity-toity. If you’re a working-class Catholic, you’re much more likely to get hung up on issues of social justice than zygotes; if you’re well off, you have the economic freedom to head off into Santorum country.

Lobster @ 1:17 pm (#52) – A megaton is overkill – more than likely the yield of a bunker buster would be in the kilotons. The yield I see mentioned the most is 0.7 kilotons.

I think that the big problem with this sort of bombing is that any target is likely to create a mini-Chernobyl, no matter what kind of warhead is used. Some might be worse than others (I’ll leave that discussion to the people who know what they’re talking about), but this campaign promises to yield more than the usual amount of resentment, and it promises to have a long half-life.

I came upon this interesting tidbit that might explain why WaPo is pro Bush:
The Washington Post has devolved from being the vaunted citadel of American investigative journalism to little more than a gelding cheerleader for the current occupant of the White House. The moral collapse at the Post has nothing to do with ideology, and everything to do with greed.

When the Washington Post Company announced its earnings on October 31, Dow Jones Newswires reported the following: “Revenue rose 10% to $706.1 million from $640.3 million, helped by 40% revenue growth at Kaplan division. Newspaper-publishing revenue grew 4.4% to $211.4 million, but revenue declined in both the television and magazine-publishing divisions.â€

Absent the huge increase in revenue from its Kaplan, Inc. educational materials subsidiary, the Washington Post Company would have been a money-losing organization, the kind of corporation where executives conduct layoffs prior to being fired themselves. The explosive growth at Kaplan was due to the largesse of George W. Bush, the politician whom the company’s flagship newspaper treats with tender loving care. It is the Bush program mandating the testing of schoolchildren across America – tests for which Kaplan supplies materials – that makes the federal government a lucrative source of revenue for the Post’s cash cow.

Al Gore opposed such massive uniform standardized testing…….
by David Podvin

Several of you write that we are “a secular nation”….well, ok. I imagine that from a legal standpoint, you’re right! But think how that “sounds” to the “ear” of someone who’s religious. That person might be saying: “why, listen to those democrats. They won’t even recognize god! In fact, it sounds like they don’t want me around…because I do believe in god, and send my kids to sunday school!”….and….off that person goes to the republican volunteer center. See?
Message and image.
Ghostman

undercoverdick, I’m not a religious person, but as to whether or not Buddha or Jesus are just fairytale beings, really — how the fuck would YOU know?

Or are you just taking it on faith?

Hard for americans (including me) to understand “class” as it is seen in the UK.

Went to grad school with a couple of kids from University of London. They couldn’t abide “upper class” englishmen- and it seemed to have little to do with money..whole different world- or so it seemed.

hackworth @39–
I remember that Roberston quote.
He said: ‘You’re supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists … Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.’
http://www.gregpalast.com/deta…..&row=1
I just can’t think of what to say to someone like that.
It used to really bother me when I was doing patient care, and for hours at a time I had to listen to him because that was the only channel the patient(s) ever watched.
Hellish.

(still thinking about “class”)

Well maybe I can relate- remember when I started looking for a house in my home town. Looked over on the West side- (the wealthy side). My Uncle nearly had a heart attack at thinking that I would consider joining “them”.

Mrs. K8…

“Once you must hammer your target…you have signalled that failure”

hummm…I think,,, well said.

as to buddha, spelunkers in india found an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features — to say that he was a real person is absurd — he’s just another fairy tale being like all the rest

undercoverdick, indeed who of us has any way of knowing conclusively anything past our grandparents (and even that)? I don’t give a shit about some historical rockstar figure anyway. I care about the body of practical teachings and interesting offshoots that came about and evolved in south and east Asia somehow, based on this supposed historical figure in India. If it were to be conclusively/scientifically proven that the dude named Siddartha truly never existed, it wouldn’t affect in the least the utility and truth of Buddhist teachings that I’ve embraced and used in my own life. Literalism and freedom are inversely proportionate to each other – I choose the latter.

Here in KY I have just finished mowing a couple of acres with my brand new John Deere, singing Christ the Lord is Risen Today and I have The Bishop’s Wife on as I am typing this. First off and said STRONGLY: Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are NOT synonymous. Never have been, never will be. It’s like saying conservatives (think Phillips for example) and fundamentalists are synonymous.

I do have people in the Democratic Party who will roll their eyes over my faith – the “invisible man in the sky” mantra. So what? I have people in my own family who do the same (we run the gamut in my family – born again, borderline fundie, mainline UMC, Jewish and aethist). It bothers me about the same amount as dumb blonde jokes (and a little less than dumb Kentuckian jokes)*G* You could as easily offend me by saying that only someone stupid could like green better than blue, or German Shepards more than Boxer, or chenille more than silk.

Faith is not so petty nor so bitter that it curls up and dies when it is not agrandized. Faith doesn’t come from you politics, your political party, your NGOs or your pundits. The Beatitudes don’t refer to Karl Rove by name nor do they reference Dobson and Falwell and their ilk by description.

Does the person standing next to me in line to vote ‘know’ God? That’s not really the question for me and it’s not the question for faith. My faith tells me how I can be sure God knows them, or me for that matter:

Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’

No placemarkers were left to have room to insert: “I was gay and you stoned me to death” or “I was living in Iraq and you bombed my home, destroyed the hanging gardens, and enshrined Sharia.” The Beatitudes also skipped over the blessings of white phosphorous and napalm. They didn’t even include a “blessed are the political pundits” reference.

I agree that the Democratic party should not go out of its way to drive people of faith from it; but to be honest, I can’t say that I have respect for the faith of people who need to have the party offer up Stuart Smalley affirmations to them.

All that said, abortion IS the elephant in the room. IMO, the Democratic party needs to dig in and address that issue, not by becoming anti-choice, but by very strongly and affirmatively embracing the fact that it is willing to work and work hard to make abortion a choice that fewer and fewer women will ever need to face.

For many people, abortion is, for them, what the war is for many here. The “vote for a Democrat” no matter what is a theme heard in its own way as much as “vote for a Republican” no matter what.

When there is so much disgust by so many with their parties, you won’t sway many of them by telling that they shouldn’t vote for their party bc it has xy&z wrong with it. Look at the numbers – on how people feel about Congress and about where the country is going. People already know the problems with their party. They need to know that there is a better alternative. They need a message of Good News. ;-)

JMO, FWIW, and no more preaching. I have to go gaze lovingly at my new green&yellow.

He said: ‘You’re supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists … Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.’

Margot –

Well this one quote should tell anyone everything you need to know about the man. Even if you account for the fact that “niceness” is highly overrated and that when it is phony, it runs counter to true lovingkindness, the final sentence is what tips his hand for all to see. Spirit of the Antichrist?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Buddha isn’t a person, but a term for a person who meets some strict specifications.

What Would Jesus Do?

Well, if he’s anything like me, he’d be grateful to Taylor Marsh for her wonderful posts recently. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting lately, Taylor.

And now I’m off to the in-laws for several hours of quality time. At least the Mets won today!

Taylor Marsh (April 16th, 2006 at 1:24 pm) “And, every so often, he drops in on the little Episcopal church across Lafayette Park from the White House”

Wow, And we let him in? Considering most of our congregants spend a majority of their sermons bashing him or his policies, I’m really surprised he’d condescend to spend time in one of our churches. Maybe he just goes to throw spitwads into the offering basket and keep his fingers crossed at communion …. :p Then again, ecclesiastical justice can be slow. One mainline bishops managed to deny Christ’s divinity on the pulpit for decades before they finally forced him to retire….

oh, and dick -

an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features

And you know this for certain how? Somebody told you? Oh, ok.

Really none of it matters, truly none of us can know or validate anything historywise! It is all about our own searching minds living in the world right now.

I often hear people (mostly cspan call callers from *red* states) saying that Muslims do not believe in God, they believe in Allah. It is a distinction of language only, sort of like Gott is God in German. Judaism has many different names for God. Just a little thing that irks me…
I found this particularly interesting:

from wiki:
Although, outside the Arab world, use of the word AllÄh is most often associated with Islam, it is not exclusive to that faith; Arab Christians and various Arabic-speaking Jews (including the Teimanim, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim) also use it to refer to the monotheist deity. Arabic translations of the Bible also employ it, as do Roman Catholics in Malta (who pronounce it as “Alla”), Christians in Indonesia, who say “Allah Bapa” (God the Father) and Christians in the Middle East who use the Aramaic “AllÄha”

Cujo359 @ #63

I believe the .7 kiloton number currently being discussed is the non-nuclear option that will be tested in Nevada soon (Divine Strake, or some such). The options discussed in Hersh’s New Yorker piece, and in subsequent articles in which people claimed the nuclear option was the only way to achieve the goal, were larger.

Yesterday, someone in an NPR interview said (in passing) that the weapons contemplated for use in Iran were “small nukes” but this is wrong. The yields needed to achieve the mission are larger than the Hiroshima yield, by a sizable factor.

Sorry to interrupt this thread, folks. I promise to stop now.

Cujo: a nuclear bunkerbuster is a small standard thermonuclear weapon with a hardened, shockproof case that can burrow only about a yard into the ground. It’s top yield is .7Megaton but it can be dialed downwards. The Divine Strake test on June 2nd will be the largest non-nuclear explosion: that is the 0.7Kiloton blast. A nuclear bunkerbuster is NOT a tactical nuke: it is a ruggedized small hydrogen bomb.

We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion of your kind and loving gods …

Just to go back on one issue I haven’t addressed. I appreciate the point on conflation brought up by sharkbabe (#33) and Jane (#50), understanding the differences completely, so I should have made my point in a different way. Thanks, ladies, for pointing it out.

*ilson – more of those climate change artifacts on your way … good luck!

The problem I have with all of this is that it buys into the Rovian/Fallwellian wurlitzer that makes evangelicals the defacto christians and denies the existence of all of the mainstream religious groups. The hype that the bornagain crew pulled off to support their marketing blitz for high profit televangelists is now treated as a realistic picture of spirituality in america.

Yet I would guess that the majority of christian americans go to neighborhood churches in mainstream denominations and do not follow Fallwell or Dobson. And the breakdown of political affiliation most likely mirrors the broader numbers for the country.

My personal beliefs do not fall within a mainstream denomination (I identify most closely with Reclaiming tradition witchcraft) but I am constantly frustrated by the assumption that religious americans are all hanging out at mega-churches following the koolaid crowd.

We should be very careful about this – we too often accept the premises of the right and then react rather than checking the reality on the ground and acting from that foundation.

The strongest anti-bush people I know are deeply religious and have been standing firm for justice and liberty for many years. They don’t need us to convert them.

Sharkbabe,

You ken quote me or misquote me anytime ya wanna woman, and yes you made the point I was tryin ta make much more clearly than I…thanx.

Oklahoma Kiddo, ya don’t hafta do battle with Hobbes, that fight has been fought and if ya want a more “progressive” option take a line from ol’ George Hegel and the dialectic of history. Even the most fundamentalist of Xtians, the Puritans and Calvanists, denied any earthly monarchist claim to legitimacy…as a matter of fact, real Xtians (including Catholics) have a history of opposition to secular monarchy.

No Kiddo, these religious fascists have no legitimacy in the real historical experience of Christianity so let’s stop givin’ ‘em any face time or airspace…don’t be afraid ta stomp a couple of these fake xtians on yer way inta the church.

KEEP THE FAITH AND DO GOD’S WORK…KICK A FAKE CHRISTIAN IN THE BALLS AND CALL IT CRIME PREVENTION!!!

cathy #64:

Nice catch! I don’t know if you saw the comment last night re: the NYT’s profitability, but I thought that it was interesting as well.

Thanks!

angie –

I’m in agreement with your post in 78 — it irks me no end, too.

Of course these are people who probably believe that Jesus (and the Almighty) is American, so foreigners should get with the program and use an English (American) name. Sheesh.

Why does Falwell get his mug on TV all the time? Does anyone take him seriously even on the Christian right?

This man is to religion as McDonalds is to a good hamburger.

Mrs. K8– Yeah, that’s sort of how I felt when I was bathing patients and hearing those venomous words coming from that man.
Gave me shivers.
And the poor patients who were, some of them, dying, on vents, what comfort did they receive from this hateful preaching? Brrr.

Mrs. K8 (April 16th, 2006 at 1:37 pm): “Pot. Kettle.”

I’m increasingly starting to believe that they (fundies) aren’t hypocrites after all.. they just belong to an altogether different religion/worship a different god. Not to say that some of them aren’t nice, decent people and they shouldn’t be tolerated in the secular/multicultural society they seek to deny the rest of us, but it’s just that I don’t think they are theologically true to the Nicene creed anymore.. which many of them outright repudiate (much less to Luther’s teachings), and thus may not, in may humble opinion, be considered either Protestants or Christians…Oh.. I do really have to learn how to be nicer person.. it is Easter :)

last year we were fighting to get an LGBT expansion of Indpls’ non-discrimination ordinance. Of course the Fundies were there hollering about “Christians say: no sodomites”. We brought out a number of friendly local preachers and rabbis who were not hatemongers and who knew the Scriptures. The “God hates fags” argument was neutralized – the LGBT Amendment passed !

Ghostman @ 1:28 pm (#65) – Sorry they’d feel that way, but there’s plenty of evidence that people can practice religion in this country. Why do we have to acknowledge their god, whatever that means, to have them respect our opinions? If they can’t evaluate our opinions based on the facts, they’re stupid or lazy, not religious.

Compromise between secularists and people of faith can be found through engaging our tolerance and open mindedness, as well as practicalities that are important, like wanting to win elections. Opening the door to everyone, including moderate and the liberally religious and spiritual, is a good thing. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the power this group could bring to the polls in numbers, if Democrats flung the the door wide open.

The way that this is phrased suggests that the Democratic Party has not thrown open the doors and is NOT open and welcoming to everyone. It suggests that the problem between the Democratic Party and the religious stems from a problem of lack of tolerance and openness within the party, rather than from sources outside the Party. It places the blame on Democrats, rather than a Republican Right that has highjacked the meaning of religion and actively worked to label the Democrats as hostile to religion. That is what I objected to.

Perception is NOT reality. (Many people perceived Iraq as a terrorist threat in 2001/2002, but that didn’t make it so). The fact that many people’s perceptions do not match reality is the problem. The latter part of this post does not make this clear and instead seems to blame Dems for the perception problem without offering any solution other than “tolerance”, implying that such tolerance does not already exist.

I really don’t believe that there is a problem with Democrats turning away from people like Randy Brinson when they decide to “taken a step away from Republicans in order to listen to what Democrats are talking about”. I don’t know of any Dem who has turned away or said that we should not accept Repub folks who are fed up with the Republican Party and looking for something different. If there is, I’d like to know about it. But I’ve never seen any evidence for this.

And, as more of a side note, with respect to the cite of Amy Sullivan, who does accuse the Dems of being “hostile to religion”, she was quoted without any sort of critical comment. This seems to imply an endorsement of her comments, so you really shouldn’t blame people who disagree with her characterizations of the Democratic Party for attributing similar views to yourself and reading the remainder of your post in this light.

The historic founder of Buddhism was a real person, born Siddhartha Gautama. He set out to find enlightenment and relieve his torment, after witnessing the slaughter of his village by the Aryan conquerors India. The Aryans introduced Brahmanism and the caste system, with themselves as the top caste — sort of a first millennium BCE Bush family.

Gautama was a contemporary of the founder of Jainism, an a-theistic Indian religion that stresses the philosophy of a-himsa — do no harm. Much of Gandhi’s teachings were based on Jain principles. Lindsay Wagner narrated an hour long documentary on Jainism, produced by KRMA in Denver — it was broadcast only once. (I have it on videotape.)

Personally, I favor Shivan Hinduism — a great little book is Bases of Tantra Sadhana, by M P Pandit. Tantra is something like a Hindu Pentecostal revival, dating from the 11th Century. The Tamil Shiva Nata-Raja bronzes(dancing lord) date from this era.

Bases of Tantra Sadhana

http://www.internatural-altern…..990835.cfm

Wikpedia — Jainism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Wikpedia — Gautama Buddha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Gautama Buddha was a spiritual teacher who was born in Lumbini, a place situated on modern Nepal near the borders of modern India. He spent his childhood in what is now the land of Nepal. He spent some part of his time in Northern India. He started preaching approximately from 563 BCE to 483 BCE. Born as Siddhartha Gautama (Sanskrit: “descendant of Gautama whose aims are achieved / who achieves aims effectively”) he became “the Buddha” after embarking on a quest for spiritual meaning. He is universally recognized by Buddhists as the Supreme Buddha (literally Enlightened One or Awakened One) of our age. He is also commonly known as Shakyamuni or Åšakyamuni (”sage of the Shakya clan”) and as the Tathagata (”thus-come-one”).

Gautama is the key figure in Buddhism, and accounts of his life, discourses, and monastic rules were summarized after his death and memorized by the sangha. Passed down by oral tradition, the Tripitaka was committed to writing about four hundred years later. Some Hindus regard Gautama as an avatar of Lord Vishnu.

cujo & *ilson,

.7 KT is nominally correct, but supposedly the warhead’s explosive output is adjustable, but by what factor is highly classified.

The guy who continually and comprehensively kept the world up to date on new nuclear weapon technology was Chuck Hanson. He died about a week into the Iraq war, and nobody out there has kept up with newly emerging issues nearly as well as did Chuck.

Here’s the site he was working on:

http://www.uscoldwar.com/

Hanson’s _U.S. Nuclear Weapons: The Secret History_, long out of print, has become a collector’s item.

wow, great thread – gonna shut up now and go read the stuff I missed while blathering my own thoughts

Oh, almost forgot to add:

When religious wingnuts say to me that the founding fathers specifically wanted, and in fact instituted, a “Christian nation,” my reply is:

“Nope. Treaty of Tripoli, 1796. Unanimously passed by the Senate and signed by the President. Look it up. It constitutionally has the same power of law as the Constitution itself.”

Here’s the relevant quote from the treaty itself as signed into law:

“…the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”

It’s my belief that the secular nature of government PROTECTS my religious beliefs.

The link to president’s religions has at least one error. It lists George Washington as an Episcopalian (Deist).

There is a well known series of letters between his wife’s pastor & himself during his presidency in which the pastor scolds Washington for attending church even though he doesn’t take communion (and thus isn’t a believer). Washington agrees that his attendence would appear to be hypocritical and because of his public position it is important not to give false impressions. So he stopped going to church while in office!

Translated from 18th century language, it’s pretty clear Washington didn’t believe in Christianity, but in some general “Providence”

OT: CSpan2 is carrying something about a conservative writer who is speaking at the “Conservative Womens Networking Group” in Washington DC at a luncheon. Guess what? the room is all-white! Aren’t there ANY conservative Black women they could have dragged to the event just for window-dressing for TV? A totally segregated group of 100 lily-white ladies … shameless!!!

well, #90, and a bunch others on this thread….I guess where I’m coming from is to say “why can’t we sit down and talk with these folks” (evangelicals and all)
And, I find something rather curious on this thread. A bunch of ya’ll are mighty concerned about Iran, and war-mongering Bush. You fear and hate his bull-headedness, and are convinced we’re going to war. You greatly harang him for going first for war to solve the problem, without EVEN attempting to have an honest, on-going dialogue with Iran….an effort to COMMUNICATE with Iran. I hear ya’ll!
But then, look at this thread. Many of you strut and snort about those jerk-off evangelicals. Others of you go to great lengths to explain your personal religion, and how you don’t need evangelical “group-think” to define your religion. Still others remind us of how, under law, religion has NO PLACE in American gov’t.
Has even one of you good folks said “he, you know what? Maybe we oughta sit down with those evangelicals and chat with them.” Well? Your worries about a TOTAL lack of communication with Iran are, in my opinion, right on! But….you don’t want to even try to communicate with fellow Americans?
Ghostman

Darrelplant & tlb(x 2) & Mrs.K8 Thumbs up.

Oklahoma Kiddo 49, great observations.

Lobster – I can’t think of much that is more ON topic.

Cujo 90 “there’s plenty of evidence that people can practice religion in this country†ABSOLUTELY! How many Christians in this country have to meet in secret to avoid being murdered?

Sharkbabe 93- I just finished doing the same. Almost as rewarding as my new mown lawn. *G*

It is a weird world indeed when religion is so politicized that Catholics, Protestants, and fundamentalist Christians feel they’re all on the same side.

I have had an epiphany.

I have come to realize that chopping off peoples heads with a knife is so barbaric and backwards and carried out by the Godless Muslims.

Instantly incinerating large masses of people with a nice nuclear weapon…very Christian and humane.

-GSD

NorskeFlamethrower @ 83

KEEP THE FAITH AND DO GOD’S WORK…KICK A FAKE CHRISTIAN IN THE BALLS AND CALL IT CRIME PREVENTION!!!

Shame on you norsk you’ve forgotten your basic training:

KEEP THE FAITH AND DO GOD’S WORK…KICK A FAKE CHRISTIAN IN THE KNEECAPS AND CALL IT CRIME PREVENTION!!! IT KEEPS THEM DOWN ON THE GROUND FOR LONGER APPLIES EQUALLY TO BOTH SEXES AND HURTS A HELL OF A LOT MORE.

As personal aside if you know any christianists who’d be offended by what I posted on Good Friday feel very free to upset them by sending them a link to my homepage.

OT: go and OD on thermonuclear bunker busters http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..b61-11.htm

Ghostman –

At least in my case, you’re making an unwarranted assumption. I do indeed “talk with these folks” and frequently in depth. Just because I didn’t write about that fact in my posts doesn’t make it untrue.

Can’t speak for others. And wouldn’t begin to assume anything about others in this regard, one way or another.

Mrs. K8 (April 16th, 2006 at 2:00 pm)

not a “Christian nation”

And even if we are a “Christian nation” (and I absolutely agree with you that we are not), we’d never agree on what that word means. During Katrina, I went around to talk to a fundamentalist Christian neighbor about donating to a relief effort.. he said no, he couldn’t support helping “those people” because Christianity, he said, was about “individual responsibility” and if those people chose to expose themselves to the risk of flooding (by living where they are and, he said, not buying insurance).. and if they are bad enough unbelievers to deserve to have god visit such a catastrophe on them, then they hardly deserve charity. I’m sorry. This isn’t Christianity by any definition I care to use or accept. As far as I’m concerned, he’s about as Christian as the punk wiccans who used to hang out under the pier.. and at least the wiccans understood compassion. Somtimes a spade is just a spade…

You start by telling us about how the founding fathers and evangelicals believed in separation of church and state, and end up by telling us that we should compromise on that very issue so the Democrats can do better electorally in the south. LOL.
But there’s a sinister theme lurking behind this attempt to win the votes of evangelicals with moral populism. Conciliation with the evangelical church goers of the South, and many other areas of the country, on religious grounds (’family’ values) is, to anyone who knows a bit about American history, first and foremost about race. It’s about winning back the votes of whites. Remember the Dixiecrats, the ‘heart and soul’ of the Democratic Party for most of a century, against which the Civil Rights movement fought? A good indicator of how much the view that “the South will rise again” has come back to dominate both parties was recently demonstrated in the paltry oposition of Democrats and moderate Republicans to the nominations of Roberts and Alito to the Supreme Court. Both nominees explicitly built their careers on fighting against Civil Rights laws, while the Federalist Society they champion was formed in the early 1980s with that issue (of course, supported by propagation of religious values) as its central goal. Its godfather, Anthony Scalia, has also made this clear in his talks about Brown vs. the Board of Ed. It was telling that Democratic senators, as well as liberal media, said virtually nothing about that issue, but focused their angst on abortion and other topics.

In Madison’s notes on the Consitutional Convention of 1787, he recounts how one day in the middle of their sessions George Washington, the chair, who rarely if at all took direct part, gave a speech about how they were working in the glory of god and proposed that every day start with a prayer. His proposal died on the spot, receiving not one second. That these men of the Enlightenment, however representative of the wealthy, slaveholding and conservative interests they were for the most part, understood instinctively what so many moderate and liberal Democrats and Republicans today have so much trouble with, is a telling indication of how decadent this society and its political (and social and economic) life has become.

Enzymer @ 2:00 pm (#95) – According to this site, a number of the founding fathers were deists or had no specific faith. Madison, Paine, and Franklin are listed there. Jefferson isn’t – as Taylor noted, he seemed to have some beliefs grounded in Christianity, but his mistrust of organized religion is well documented.

Several of you write that we are “a secular nationâ€â€¦ well, ok. I imagine that from a legal standpoint, you’re right!

We’re absolutely right. Secularity is a legal concept.

I am not a Christian, and I am happy that the US is not a Christian nation. I have no problem with living among Christians, but I will not cooperate with the “Christian nation” BS. I do not think that the Democrats should court people who claim that the US is a Christian nation. It’s probably hopeless anyway — they want the whole nine yards, not just “under God” in the Pledge.

“Has even one of you good folks said “he, you know what? Maybe we oughta sit down with those evangelicals and chat with them.†“

Ghostman – I think not only have they done that, but quite a few evangelicals have been known to go up to Democrats and sit and chat with them, too. *g* Join the party even. **G**

Sojourners and Republican doctrine don’t overlap in many places. IMO at least.

Some things simply do not deserve respect or tolerance.

I’ve voted mostly Democratic throughout my life. But I don’t think there is anything wrong with being intolerant of the religious zealots. Can we please clearly distinguish here between ‘people of faith’ and the zealots? I truly hope so because reaching out to ‘people of faith’ is both good and necessary. (Indeed, the majority of Democrats would clearly identify themselves as ‘people of faith’) But reaching out to the zealots like Falwell, Robertson and Phelps is a recipe for absolute disaster.

The right to worship the supernatural beings of your choosing ends at my front door. It’s one thing for you to say that you believe Jesus is coming back and that the Rapture will happen and that you pray for it. If that describes you, then may your God truly bless you.

But if you are actively trying to bring about these so-called “end times” prophecies, then you are clearly a danger to this society. This society may be far from perfect, but I’m rather fond of it all the same and your attempts to destroy it are not going unnoticed.

If you think you need to “help God” bring about “end times”, don’t expect me to reach out to you. Don’t expect me to be tolerant. And please, quit asking me to respect your religion. Such fantasies don’t deserve respect.

Expect me to denounce you. Expect me to stop you. You are a threat. You are no different than the bastards who would strap on suicide vests ‘for Allah’ or who would fly planes into buildings. You would willingly bring about the deaths of millions just to fulfill your ridiculous religious prophecies.

Tolerance for end times?

No. No way. That is where my tolerance ends. I’m not going back to 13th century. Not for Islam. Not for Judaism. And not for Christianity.

When I was young, my mother, who considered herself a Christian woman, taught me that, for the most part, zealots could be safely ignored because they were never likely to gain enough political power to be much of a serious threat. But Jonestown absolutely stunned her. That so many could be so stupid was nearly incomprehensible to her. She often told me before she died that Jonestown was a very loud wake up call — one that shook her to the bone — it caused her to question the nature and depths of her own beliefs. Today, it seems that the zealots are the loudest and most powerful voices within the Christian communities.

I would love to be proven wrong on this point.

I wholeheartedly agree with those who call for mainstream Muslims to do MUCH MORE to denounce the extremists within their own ranks. Likewise, those who consider themselves to be mainstream Christians need to do MUCH MORE to denounce Falwell, Robertson, Phelps and their petty, hateful and destructive little god.

-x-

Well, we can all use a little more martydom can’t we?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..bombers_dc

-GSD

THERE IS NO GOD!

THERE IS NO “AFTERLIFE”!

THIS IS IT !!!!!

DON’T FUCK IT UP!!!!!

OT: I must apologize about The Conservative Womens Networking Luncheon on CSpan2 being all-white. The camera just scanned the audience – I finally saw 3 dark-skinned ladies who were sitting clustered together: out of maybe 100 people in Washington DC !

Mary –

Thanks. I should have mentioned how much I really like your post at #72. There’s so much good stuff in there, but if I had to pick just ONE sentence you wrote there which I love, it would have to be this:

Faith is not so petty nor so bitter that it curls up and dies when it is not agrandized.

Amen, amen, amen! [I long for the day when *humility* is recognized again as an essential virtue for ALL believers.] Happy Easter to you and your family.

But if you are actively trying to bring about these so-called “end times†prophecies, then you are clearly a danger to this society. This society may be far from perfect, but I’m rather fond of it all the same and your attempts to destroy it are not going unnoticed.

If you think you need to “help God†bring about “end timesâ€, don’t expect me to reach out to you. Don’t expect me to be tolerant. And please, quit asking me to respect your religion. Such fantasies don’t deserve respect.

Expect me to denounce you. Expect me to stop you. You are a threat. You are no different than the bastards who would strap on suicide vests ‘for Allah’ or who would fly planes into buildings. You would willingly bring about the deaths of millions just to fulfill your ridiculous religious prophecies.

Tolerance for end times?

No. No way. That is where my tolerance ends. I’m not going back to 13th century. Not for Islam. Not for Judaism. And not for Christianity

Wooo hooo and Amen brother (conservative Catholic here.) May I “steal” that with attribution for a posting on my blog?

Ghostman @ 2:09 pm (#97) – As Mrs. K8 notes, you’re making many assumptions. I won’t bother to list them all, but I think one of your assumptions is that somehow “communication” leads to agreement. It doesn’t always. It leads, hopefully, to understanding.

For my part, I’m not refusing to communicate with evangelicals, or any other particular established religion, FTM. I’m refusing to communicate with people who refuse to accept the fact that anything that seems to contradict their view of their religion must be wrong, or that anyone who doesn’t have their religious beliefs can’t be trusted.

Christianity, he said, was about “individual responsibilityâ€

Blub –

That is shocking. I hope you took Jesus’ advice when you left this person’s house: to “shake the dust off your feet.”

Amazing.

Mary! all I can say … or rather sing … is the Alleluia refrain from your chosen hymn … one of my faves from way back

I offer you one from my trad in return:

A year of beauty. A year of plenty.
A year of planting. A year of harvest.
A year of forests. A year of healing.
A year of vision. A year of passion.
A year of rebirth.

This year may we renew the earth.
This year may we renew the earth.

Let it begin with each step we take.
And let it begin with each change we make.
And let it begin with each chain we break.
And let it begin every time we awake.

markfromireland:

I’m not sure if FDL has a policy on this, but it’s certainly fine with me…

BTW, The Cheney birthing picture cost me a whole mouthful of coffee!

If at first you don’t succeed! Looks like old CRumbsfeld will get to go to the well one more time.

The big question is, once Operation Liberate Baghdad II is done will President Chimpy McFlightsuit land on an aircraft carrier and announce: “Mission Accomplished, Again!”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a…..97,00.html

-GSD

Well I can see the attractions of wanting to be like Jefferson and keep slaves including at least one underage sex slave …but is that legal?

And what if I don’t want to live under all yr Gilead/Sharia laws?

I look to George Mason more than white supremicist Jefferson and I say Gilaead -Sharia is bad – raining down fire on the pentagon is good. Free speech I may tersely define as ‘No opinion a law- no opinion a crime.’ ( Alex Berkman )
Finally If there was a god it would obviously be necessary to destroy it.

Ghostman,

I communicate with fungelicals quite well. Their religion is unmodifiable from without. It is a self-regulating universe until such time as Jesus comes back, then a sequence of events unfolds which leads to the end of existence as we know it. They believe this and I don’t.

Very few of the people I know who actually believe this creed view long-term solutions to future problems from a practical viewpoint. That much I’ve learned over the years through having hundreds of discussions which led nowhere on these issues.

Angie @ 78 yup. At one point when I served in Beirut I was called to the synagogoue as there was a car parked suspiciously outside. Who called me were Islamists fighters (Amahl) who took it upon themselves every Saturday to escort the congregation to and from service and who protected the building 7 days a week. (Interestingly Amal have some revolting anti-Jew rhetoric.) Anyway the Jewish congregation used to pray for our continued well-being in Arabic invoking of course Allah. Allah is just the Arabic word for “God.” Same as “Dieu” in French or “Dios” in Spanish or “Dia” in Gaelic.

Mary @ 2:10 pm (#99) – ABSOLUTELY! How many Christians in this country have to meet in secret to avoid being murdered?

More significantly ;-), how many atheists have to meet in secret to avoid being murdered? Personally, I like that we don’t have to if we choose to meet. (I know this because there are groups who do, even in central Texas). I’d really like to keep it that way.

Mrs K8 #95 –

Well, now you’ve done it! By pointing out the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, you’ve given the preznit an opportunity for another Unitary Executive trifecta! He can void the treaty, make us a Christian nation, and make himself a God-King at the stroke of a pen!!!

On a serious note, upthread at #92, I have a post that just came out of moderation — on Buddhism, Jainism, and Tantric Shivan Hinduism.

Ed N Sted (April 16th, 2006 at 2:19 pm)

“No. No way. That is where my tolerance ends.”

Exactly. Well said. The big tent of Democratic politics should NOT extend to people who think it’s OK to let people drown without thinking to help them, because it’s self-evidently god’s will that they die.. and that god (Phelps) is about hate, not love. If we compromise too much on our core ideals in order to bring in votes from this ilk, then we wind up with a party that’s worse than the wishy-washy party of compromise Hillary-style we have today. Sure, we should appeal to religious people, but there are religious people of good and of bad character, and it is only to the former that we should appeal. The rest can just thank whatever god it is that they believe in that we are tolerant enough/have enough respect for the constitution they wish to destroy, not to round up the lot of them and send them off to mandatory reeducation….

OT: BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4914898.stm

Monaco’s Prince Albert has reached the North Pole on his four-day expedition to highlight global warming.

The prince left a base in Russia on Thursday with seven others in the dog-sled expedition.

He planted a flag of Monaco and one of the International Olympic Committee, of which he is a member.

The prince said: “We must try to find solutions [to global warming], with scientists obviously, but at the individual level.”

*ilson46201 @ 2:22 pm (#113) – I’m surprised those three weren’t positioned to be more visible by the cameras.

siun – That is lovely; I wish I could hear it as well.

Thank you Mrs. K8 – happy days to all. I’m off to do family stuff (and bust up one of those secret aethist meetings where Cujoians are plotting the demise of the Easter Bunny) :b (from ezboard lingo – sticking out my tongue and running)

The big tent of Democratic politics should NOT extend to people who think it’s OK to let people drown without thinking to help them, because it’s self-evidently god’s will that they die..

Blub –

This bit you wrote reminded me that even Benjamin Franklin had to fight this nonsense. The religious wingnuts of HIS day condemned his invention of the lightning rod, because such a device was clearly working to “cheat” God of his right to show condemnation by *zapping* those whom he chose to *zap* with his mighty bolt.

There have been some of these in every generation. When I was a little girl I was aware that there were still some elderly folks about who would not fly in a plane, since “if God wanted humans to fly, he’d have given us wings.”

new thread – new war

terrific post! thanks so much. the dems really do need to get over their fears of recognizing that folks often do have spiritual leanings. dems need to address them now, as the biggest problems in the bush administration are ones of moral depravity, hypocritically enough.

referencing a moral statement uttered by jesus can be easily matched by one in the koran or any other spiritual text. making note of such wisdom as ‘turn the other cheek’ and outrage at the money lenders does not violate the separation of church and state.

moreover, appealing to these concerns would offer a comforting haven for those millions of evangelicals out there who crave a viable alternative to bush. in 04, i was shocked to learn that a close friend’s sister and bro-in-law, who are as evangelical as they come on abortion and creationism and the like, could not vote for bush because of his war-mongering. and this was not a hard question for them because they had determined that bush was NOT christian expressly because he would attack another country.

i don’t think they were terribly alone, and in fact they said that their entire church was leaning this way. yet another reason why i believe bush actually did lose in 04.

keep on keepin’ on, folks; these evil creeps will ultimately fail. it is just incumbent upon each of us to keep these important moral issues at the forefront of our own actions as we assail the bushies for their flagrant immoralities.

*ilson – I’m repeating myself here but highly recommend the upcoming movie about Al Gore and Global Warming titled A Inconvenient Truth:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02230.html

The presentation it is based on can be viewed here (scroll to bottom of page): http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/ne…..gore.shtml

Thanks Ed n Sted AFAIK Jane is ok with quoting so long as attribution is given. If you thought the Cheney birthing was “bad” you’d be amazed at the reaction I got to interspersing some of the stations of the cross with photos from Iraq. Three death threats so far (the record is 15 so I’m quite disaapointed *G*) all of them from American deep South I’ve replied to all of them with “you and whose army you stinking little whited sepulchre coward you.” I do NOT believe in being nice to these people.

Mary @ 2:41 pm (#129) – These days, the only Easter bunnies I can catch up with are the chocolate variety.

I’ve got to say, the Russert show contained two facts that made me realize that the way to defeat all challenges to Roe v. Wade is through… freedom of the religion. The “moderate Muslim” — I thought they didn’t exist — said this, which I didn’t know: for Muslims, the moment of ensoulment comes at 100 days, not at the moment of conception, whatever moment that is. I believe that Jewish thought is similar. So a law that forbids all abortion would impede Muslims, Jews, and some Christians — not to speak of secularists — from the free exercise of their religions. There’s the winning argument in front of the Supremes, legal minds. To forbid all abortion would be to force us all to accept one theological view.

On an allied topic, a good argument from “liberal female Catholic” — sorry I didn’t note the names. Church doctrine is that divorce does not exist, and those who marry must remain married. Protestant sects, of course, disagree strongly. Should the Catholic position on divorce be the law of the land? Not by me. Again, a winning argument.

Mary … Beliefnet has an audio link but I can’t listen to it on my ‘puter so I am not sure if it is the melody I know …

traditionally sung during the Samhain (All Hallo
w’s) ritual to accompany a spiral dance in which each participant meets the eyes of every other … a very powerful experience when, as in the San Francisco ritual, there are over 2000 participants of every shape, size, sex, persuasion, costume and not, etc …

(tho we could use some good soaring alleluia’s!)

ck –

Thanks for that rich detail at #92!

Back when I was struggling to become fluent in German, one of my favorite novels to read in the original was Hesse’s “Siddhartha.” It was quite simple prose to read, but chock full of meaning to ponder.

Mary … Beliefnet has an audio link but I can’t listen to it on my ‘puter so I am not sure if it is the melody I know …

http://www.beliefnet.com/story…..639_1.html

traditionally sung during the Samhain (All Hallo
w’s) ritual to accompany a spiral dance in which each participant meets the eyes of every other … a very powerful experience when, as in the San Francisco ritual, there are over 2000 participants of every shape, size, sex, persuasion, costume and not, etc …

(tho we could use some good soaring alleluia’s!)

apologies for double post … mea culpa

Michael said-
Americans … need to realize that the homophobes and the holy-haters are a minority in our religion, and you don’t have to be a bigot to be a good Christian.

Amen, Michael.

Seems to me that you’re trying to reach an accommodation with the Devil if you attempt to appeal to the “Christianity” of fundies who still support Bush. You’d be better off continuing the work of turning them against him – so that they stay away from the polling booths – than compromising your principles by attempting to woo them … and thereby losing the support of those who cannot stomach their authoritarian far-right values. Note that McCain did himself no good by courting Falwell.

It’s not as though we’re talking about the majority of US Christians; instead we’re concentrating on a small minority of fundies who have been encouraged by Bush to punch far above their numerical weight.

The following link should prove an invaluable resource, however, whether you want the fundies’ votes or just want to discourage them:

http://www.wcc-usa.org/news/ne…..-conf.html

It’s an impassioned, beautifully written, and sobering apologia written to the World Council Of Churches by its US delegation (which represents just about all of the heavyweight Christian denominations apart from the Roman Catholics) and deserves all the attention and publicity you can give it.

i was raised a southern baptist. i more or less stuck with it until my pastor kept raving about the pope being “the anti-christ”. this was way pre-falwell (the mid-fifties). there was and still is plenty wrong with the roman catholic church, but my pastor’s lack of tolerance of a different religious tradition was enough to turn me away from the church in which i had been raised. i was eighteen at the time.
good ole j. harold stephens was very much anti-catholic, but he was equally for separation of church and state. as we know, a lot has changed in the past fifty years.
to this day i won’t say that my instincts served me well at that tender age. i don’t even know if the southern baptist convention then had or still has a policy regarding separation of church and state. i do, however, find it deplorable that religious leaders in this country have not taken a clear stand against the mixing of religion and politics.

on another aspect of this thread: those of you that aren’t really up on your buddhism should read karen armstrong’s “buddha, a biography”. armstrong is a former catholic nun who is a first rate scholar and writer about many aspects of religion. she should be read by believers and non-believers. whether we like it or not, religion is “hot” at the moment, and by that i don’t mean popular. armstrong is lucid in her writing style and she has the big picture. religion is affecting the political discourse world-wide. we all need a better understanding of what we’re dealing with.

one final observation: rw cole in #28 referred to the pope as a nazi. really cool, rw, that’ll get those catholic voters on our side, won’t it? he was a bloody kid at the time, living in some village in bavaria. i don’t know his present political stance but i do know that the vatican recently stood up for the theory of evolution, when our glorious wingnuts are still flogging that “intelligent design” business. what we democratic advocates must do is to be a little more circumscribed in our impulses to take potshots. you’ve got falwell pegged, he’s easy. the new pope, not so much.

The Republicans own the fundie vote. That’s not going to change. Something like 70% of Americans call themselves christians, and 60% or so believe the bible is the literal truth.

I’d like to see Dean’s version of the Democratic party where health care, safe working conditions, child care, and education and a clean environment were available for all. For what it’s worth, Dean’s favorite philosopher is Lao Tsu and not jesus.

The religious types who flap their yaps the loudest want to see there enemies punished by horrific torture. Thew want, they really want, the world to be destroyed by nukes or global warming, or a plague of frogs. These people are not reachable.

These people a huge hypocrites too. Why is there so much drinking, drugging, alcohol consumption and divorce in this country? I guess all the non-believers have to work in triple sin shifts to keep the numbers up.

You know what part of the country has the lowest divorce rate? New England. Highest rate? The bible belt.

Ed N Sted ~ Thanks and Hallelujah to your post at #110. Your elequence and economy of words express my objections to the American Fundamental Xianist movement better than I could ever have hoped to do! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

As time moves on, I am finding myself compelled in stronger and stronger terms to expose this mindset as just as dangerous as the hijacking of Islam by the folks who brought us 9/11. And if both of those groups have their way, the earth will be caught in the crossfire of another Crusade. On one side, hoping to bring about The Rapture and on the other, Martyrdom.

I guess the time to start is now. Time to re-open scripture and the theological essays and get moving. Wish me luck.

mfi @ 134

Your post with the stations of the cross and the victims of war is, imho, a brilliant and searing photo essay.

I posted something on Bad Attitudes on a similar subject the other day. The much villified William Jennings Bryan was a progressive, although that’s not what he is remembered for. We should remember that most people of faith in the south were once Democrats.

I lost a sad post, just as well.

Thank you all for being here, it has been a moonswept weekend full of loss and uncontrolled pain. I have read tonight, but am too sad and tired to visit anymore.

I just wanted to claim my seat and see your smiling faces.

Send a thought to Irene and Charles tonight as you celebrate in whatever way you do.

Resurrection is not what I have in mind, more like the peace of forever for these dear souls and a world of love for thier families.

As always, thank you.

zen

zennurse,
“Send a thought to Irene and Charles tonight as you celebrate in whatever way you do.”
Done.
Thoughts and prayers are with you.

Easter is an especially hard day for those of us who are mourning loved ones. Going for a long walk or meditating are a help. So is a round of tai chi outdoors under the newly budding trees. Chocolate is good too.

We will outlast the bad times.

zennurse @ 4:11 pm (#148) – Hope you feel better soon. I know sometimes there’s not much other than time that can heal. Come back when you can.

The failure of humanity to accept the truth of our
mortality has given rise to the lie of religion. As the fools bend their knees in surrender we fall into the trap. Scum would have us believe that the ear of “god” listens to those that claim the ability to speak for us all. There is no god. The
liars that would keep us forever in check to the idea of superhuman spooks in the sky only want to continue to collect the money and prestige given by the sheep in the pews. We look to the
future through the eyes of doubt and find no way
to prove any connection with any superhuman
diety. The need for religion has passed into yore
as we find clues to existance in science. To deny
the truth of scientific method and social culture
as the population evolves is at least criminally
stupid and perhaps fatal to the future. As we suffer the flawed actions of the present moronic
administration the dangers of religious belief are
brought to bear to divide the electorate. This is
the weakness of the past given each generation as a foregone conclusion. Religion has become
the wedge driven between the people and the truth. Humans as a whole are being crushed by the weight of the past. Jefferson would be hard
to convince that the TV faces babbling for an absent god have any right to influence our acts as a nation. To all the voters that count on god to lead us: Fuck you morons.

Arabella – I share what you feel. I feel what you’re sharing. Blessings to you.

During the 2004 election, the S. Antonio Express-News ran an interesting article about a local evangelical who was voting for Kerry over these very issues. The evangelical ran a homeless shelter or food kitchen, and he was getting an up-close look at the impact Republican policies were having on his mission. You know, making the numbers of needy skyrocket, while government funds were concentrated into the mega-churches, rather than independent charity ops like his.

This is a quiet, but growing movement. Frankly, I think Sullivan is wrong that we need to “court” the evangelical vote. It’s fraying on its own as the evangelicals who actually do read the Good Book take it seriously and realize who really is on their hero’s side. Of course, Dobsons and Falwells were always telling the folks out there in TEEVEE land to read the book but, really, they didn’t MEAN it. Are you kidding? They don’t want you to read it draw your own conclusions about it. They want you to read it with THEIR conclusions already drummed into your head.

You don’t have to believe in God, Buddha or Allah to respect the power, not to mention the practicalities, of reaching out to people of all types of faith.

I agree with you 100 percent there. I was baptized Catholic and that is the extent of my religious affiliations. However, I resent the accusations or implied belief that that automatically makes me hostile to religion, which is flat false.

As an atheist in a religious country, I am acutely aware of the value and necessity of freedom of religion. I don’t want anyone to abandon their faith. I just want them to let me alone with my beliefs, and to let everyone else alone with their beliefs.

I’m sort of tired, as an atheist, of being referred to as “without faith.” I have deeply held beliefs. David E. @112 sums a couple of them up nicely. We’re all we’ve got. We’re responsible for what we do–and don’t do.

Ms. Marsh, you don’t say how Democrats are helping the religious right keep the culture war going. That was your characterization in the post, not a quote from Sullivan.

Is there some sort of “War on Religion” from the Democrats that you’re referring to? A “Fight Against the Faithful”? Some sort of “Secular Smackdown”? I’m just wondering, because I appear to be out of the loop on those campaigns, except for the hyperventilating at FOX. I mean, unless you’re saying that they’re right about that. Personally, I think they’re lying, and since Sullivan says the same types of things about a Democrat vs. religion divide, I think she’s lying, too.

At the risk of being labelled anti-religious by the likes of Sullivan, I’ll admit I’m an empiricist. So, got any examples?

http://hubblesite.org/newscent…..s/1996/01/

Representing a narrow “keyhole” view stretching to the visible horizon of the universe, the Hubble Deep Field image covers a speck of the sky only about the width of a dime 75 feet away. Though the field is a very small sample of the heavens, it is considered representative of the typical distribution of galaxies in space, because the universe, statistically, looks largely the same in all directions. Gazing into this small field, Hubble uncovered a bewildering assortment of at least 1,500galaxies at various stages of evolution.
=====================
An ‘entity’ capable of creating this would have absoulutely no reason to demand worship.
A person who claims that because he/she worships this ‘entity’ they will be rewarded for doing so is at best delusional, at worst arrogant.

I don’t demand that others not worship that ‘entity’ but I do demand they stop threatening to throw me into a volcano because I won’t use their coping mechanism for dealing with life’s insecurities.

Humankind is born in innocence, matures through the experience, is lost to the material world, falls, if fortunate, experiences spiritual revelation and commits itself to that which inspired its insight, because it awakened hope that it can know its transcendent self – rebirth.

If one looks deeply enough there is universality among the major religious and spiritual paths. It is the catholic nature of religion that becomes abstruse when translated through its leaders.

The leaders desire to consolidate power under their particular translation. Thus, the spirituality is marginalized, (the healing and rebirthing aspect of religion,) and what remains is prejudice and intolerance.

As Jesus and Gandhi among others said, “love is the answer,” but so few want to hear it. If one’s experience was without love; his belief is that all experience is without love. People either learn to control their lives with love or nations will control them with tyranny.

One must be tough to love. One must be brave to love, and one must be a bit insane to love, but the alternative is so much worse.

Shakespeare seemed to believe that love was both a type of mental illness as well as a grand beauty in the innocent, a folly for the mature, and a state of grace in the old. I am uncertain if he thought one could be reborn.

Everyone has been wounded, but only some recover from their wounds. A spiritual life helps make this possible. Unfortunately what the radical right wing is selling irritates the wound for selfish reasons. Some democrats understand this and they should not be afraid to say it.

Jane_Jericho, darrelplant, owlbear1 et al., see a great article by Sam Harris:

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/it…..manifesto/

The idea that the Democratic Party should spin its wheels accommodating those who believe in the supernatural is, well, pretty tedious. Those who like believing in the supernatural need to accommodate the real word. Ms Marsh keeps suggesting that “perception is reality.” Rove is choking on his own laughter at that: that is exactly what he sells! As one of the Rovians once said, “while you all are running around dealing with the ‘reality’ we have created, we’ve already moved on to the real agenda. “

Typo: “real world.” But, maybe real “words” too, rather than the “words” of mythological superheroes, interpreted, by humans, over the many centuries of transitional comprehension levels of the human species!
Real “words” as relates to physics, philosophy, genetics, psychology, microbiology, chemistry, immunology, ….. the world of words post-Enlightenment.

Don’t forget, pre-Enlightenment (the era of the introduction of cause and effect, through knowledge concerning real entities, made possible by microscopes, telescopes, etc….), virtually everyone, for example, believed in witches. In 1692, during the Salem witch business, it was universally accepted, even by, say, Cambridge scholars, that witches were real. That alone made a whole lot of court proceedings possible. We are nuts to even waste time talking about accommodating people who believe in “witches” in this day and age.

Faith in humans is good enough. I have faith that good and evil will be done by humans: I hope for the good and try to work for it. That sustains me.