
(guest blog by Taylor Marsh)
"... But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error. Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia - Query XVII
I'll start it off with what FDL reader "hackworth" said in the comments: "... Blitzer asks Falwell if there is any chance that the democrats will pick off some family values voters. Falwell says, slim chance - as long as the dems are pro choice, pro gay marriage and do not support the war. ..."
FDL reader "GSD" completes the vision: "'Blow them all away in the name of the Lord' - Jerry Falwell. That is the caliber of cleric that holds sway in this nation."
Faithful fighting for war? Leading the way and electing a man who postures to be born again, but who chose preemptive war?
Evangelicals used to behave quite differently, especially when it came to government, church and state.
Even though Jefferson was labeled anti-religion by some, he had become a hero to evangelicals—not in spite of his views on separation of church and state, but because of them. By this point, Jefferson had written his draft of the Virginia statute of religious freedom, and he and James Madison were known as the strictest proponents of keeping government and religion far apart. Because Baptists and other evangelicals had been persecuted and harassed by the majority faiths—the Anglicans in the South and the Puritan-influenced Congregationalists in the North—these religious minorities had concluded that their freedom would only be guaranteed when majority faiths could not use the power of the state to promote their theology and institutions.
(snip)
With the evangelicals providing the political ground troops, the legislature then went even further, approving Thomas Jefferson's statute on religious freedom. The statute prohibited not only formal establishments, but also the use of government funds to aid any particular religion on the grounds that no man's taxes should be used to support religious beliefs with which he does not agree. “To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical.”
A similar dynamic developed during the ratification of the Bill of Rights. The evangelicals provided the political muscle for the efforts of Madison and Jefferson, not merely because they wanted to block official churches but because they wanted to keep the spiritual and secular worlds apart. “Religious freedom resulted from an alliance of unlikely partners,” writes the eminent historian Frank Lambert in his excellent book The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. “New Light evangelicals such as Isaac Backus and John Leland joined forces with Deists and skeptics such as James Madison and Thomas Jefferson to fight for a complete separation of church and state.”
The Framers and the Faithful, by Steven Waldman
How modern evangelicals are ignoring their own history.
As Jim Wallis, author of "God's Politics" has said over and over again, what the religious right is offering America when it comes to faith, war and policies is not the direction most liberal evangelicals want to go. Going further, some religious leaders are separating themselves from Falwell and the "left behind" rapture crowd. It's giving Karl Rove "heartburn," according to Amy Sullivan.
Like an abusive boyfriend, Republicans keep moderate evangelicals in the coalition by alternating between painting their options as bleak and wooing them with sweet talk. You can't leave me—where are you going to go? To them? They think you're stupid, they hate religion. Besides, you know I love you—I'm a compassionate conservative. The tactic works as long as evangelicals don't call the GOP's bluff and as long as Democrats are viewed as hostile to religion.
Randy Brinson is proof that some evangelicals are willing to take their chances and cross over to see what Democrats have to offer. There is a growing recognition among mainstream Democrats and the once-quiescent Religious Left that they can reframe issues they care about in terms that appeal to religious voters.
When Would Jesus Bolt?, by Amy Sullivan
Meet Randy Brinson, the advance guard of evangelicals leaving the GOP.
Who is Randy Brinson? He is the founder of Redeem the Vote, a "religious version of Rock the Vote." But what he understands is profound. He knows, as do many of you, that the religious right has no vested interest in solving problems and healing the divisions we have regarding faith and values. What they want to do is keep the culture war brewing, because it's big bucks and brings in lots of power, their main interest in it all.
Democrats need to quit helping them do it.
One of the reasons I brought up the environmental issue this morning is that there is a growing movement of environmental religious groups who are furious at George W. Bush and the administration, along with the Republican Party, because the current crop of politicians are terrible stewards of our planet. This is becoming a powerful movement around the country, one that could wrench the religious away from Republicans. Even Randy Brinson has taken a step away from Republicans in order to listen to what Democrats are talking about.
It's not about converting the conservatives, which will never happen. But there are many moderates and non church going spiritual people out there who don't like what the religious right is offering, but don't consider themselves secular in the least. Where do they go or do they stay home?
You don't have to believe in God, Buddha or Allah to respect the power, not to mention the practicalities, of reaching out to people of all types of faith.
The Democratic Party has the answers to solve many social, national security and global challenges we face today. But many moderates, especially in the south and in rural areas, are tuning us out and it's costing us elections. Of course, we need to reach out to people beyond the faith based, but if we loosened the Republicans "lock on faith," as Sullivan calls it, the possibilities for Democrats would expand exponentially.
Compromise between secularists and people of faith can be found through engaging our tolerance and open mindedness, as well as practicalities that are important, like wanting to win elections. Opening the door to everyone, including moderate and the liberally religious and spiritual, is a good thing. You don't have to be religious to appreciate the power this group could bring to the polls in numbers, if Democrats flung the the door wide open.
If that doesn't sell you, how about the fact that it would give Karl Rove heartburn? That's got to be worth something.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Fitz.
1. The Congressional Black Caucus is entirely Democratic, amazingly progressive and utterly religious…
2. In response to the election of born-again Jimmy Carter, GOP operatives organized “The Moral Majority” headed by Jerry Falwell, to harvest the Evangelical vote. They’ve been working it ever since…
Ralph Reed and Pat Robertson’s Christian Action Coalition (the successor to Moral Majority) is over $2,000,000 in debt and is collapsing…
in Indianapolis, our African-American Congresswoman is having Barney Frank drop in for a fundraiser … today she is at 3 church services. She’s a proud Baptist and just loves her buddy Barney…
Taylor’s on a roll!! These fools who know no history and only believe in a future in terms of the rapture. G*d help us all!!
_The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America_ by Frank Lambert is a fine book. Last summer, I read Susan Jacoby’s _Freethinkers_. It touches upon some of the same material, and is one of the best defenses of American secularism I’ve ever read.
Amy Sullivan is an idiot. She continues to spread Republican talking points about Democrats being hostile to religious voters while ignoring the vast numbers of existing Democratic religious voters.
She’s repeatedly failed to give any examples of how the Democratic Party has been alienating religious voters, as she’s charged.
I notice that you, too, don’t give any specifics about how Democrats are “helping” the religious right to keep the culture wars brewing.
Who was the last secular humanist Democratic Presidential candidate?
Thomas Jefferson produced his own version of the bible. The Thomas Jefferson Bible is a pretty thin little book — it’s just the words of Christ. You know, just the important stuff. The word of God, indeed.
You all heard of Red Letter Christians? It’s the most well-known name for the movement of progressive evangelicals. Where, you ask, did they get that name? Well, in many bibles, the words of Christ are printed in red, and these evangelicals seem to think they’re the most important part. You know, the parts about mercy, forgiveness, humility, charity, love, peace, brother(-and-sister-)hood, about helping the poor and the sick, about (did I mention?) love.
TJ and the Red Letter Christians are a natural fit, in fact you might say he wrote a bible just for them. I’m glad they’re starting to get organized, and I can’t wait to start seeing them on TV and hearing them on the radio. Americans (including my room mate) need to realize that the homophobes and the holy-haters are a minority in our religion, and you don’t have to be a bigot to be a good Christian.
The essence of the Democratic creede is very close to the teachings of Jesus — if our team can weave these truths into our message, it will go a long way to levelling the field.
Why do the GOP and the so-called* Christian Right hate Jesus?
#8 — *
The so-called Christian Right — they are not Christain, and they are not right.
Religious credentials have long been required in American politics. After the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 it was particularly important for politicians to profess a belief in some sort of god in order to prove you weren’t a godless anarchist commie…
“It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
I was thinking this same thing this morning after watching a tiny bit of Falwell on one of the morning shows.
AWESOME post Taylor. The Base is where the support is ultimately rooted. Weakening the Base’s support is the final domino.
I got to talk to Kevin Phillips (American Theocracy author) and asked how best to take Bush down another 10 points in the polls. He said that if the Democrats pushed the Fake Christian theme, they could shave 6-8 points off in short order, pushing it down into the Nixon Range. He said the radical Base is getting frustrated on the one hand with lack of progress and the moderate Base has the feeling of being painted with a bad brush on the other. This squares with your quoted observations:
-As Jim Wallis, author of “God’s Politics” has said over and over again, what the religious right is offering America when it comes to faith, war and policies is not the direction most liberal evangelicals want to go. Going further, some religious leaders are separating themselves from Falwell and the “left behind” rapture crowd. It’s giving Karl Rove “heartburn,” according to Amy Sullivan.-
Thanks, Ed*ard Teller, and let’s not get distracted by Sullivan, who does just what you say at times, but in this article offers some good information, imho.
Nice post, Michael. I just knew someone would point out TJ’s personal Bible.
A little OT but it seems relevant to this thread as well. Since it highlites the worse kind of conservative close-mindedness. Re-posted from talking head thread.
I’m sittin’ here at my ‘puter with CNN on for background noise. (I know, I’m a masochistic freak that way) and the grand cermudgeon himself, Jack Cafferty just ‘weighed in’ on the Moussaui trial.
According to Jack, there are “many ways†to administer the ‘Death Penalty’. Including just “sentencing him to life in prison and then throwing him into General Population at the toughest Federal Pen aroundâ€. Then according to Jack, “The lads will take care of thingsâ€.
Yuck, yuck… Oh those kooky “lads†are sure reliable that way aren’t they Jack? wink, wink…
He summed it all up by washing his hands of it and pretending he no longer cared aboutr the outcome, just as long as it hurry up and got here.
Is this what kind of scum is passing for ‘Cable News’ now?
On a Postcard-beatiful Hawaii Easter Sunday morning, I turn on the television to catch a bit of “news†and our resident National Grumpy Conservative Crazy Irish Curmudgeony Blowhard Grandpa figure is promoting DEATH BY ARYAN MOB JUSTICE in Federal Prisons?
WTF…?
Happy Easter to you to… JACK!
I hope C&L can get a copy of that clip. It happened at the beginning of “In The Money” on CNN.
The Righteous Righties advocate war yet also advocate a pro-life stance.
WHA WHAA WHAAA???
Save the unborn, so as they can be raised to go off and kill or be killed for the nation. That’s not pro-life.
Fertility clinics throw out thousands of fertilized blastocyst daily, and yet the pro-life RR out there have successfully blocked the notion of donation to a higher cause. The donation of the embryo for stem cell research so as to help give life.
To me, this is exactly why it is immoral to legislate religious doctrines into effect. They end up contradicting themselves.
I’m sorry, but this kind of post annoys me. The Democratic Party has always been a party of faith and has never been run by the secular folks within it. The idea that it is unwelcoming to people of faith and needs to change its attitude comes from the Right and the Republican Party - not the secular members of the Democratic Party, who generally have no problem with people of faith. Digby and Tristero have had a series of posts that have debunked this idea over and over.
The Right are not going to stop implying that the Left are anti-Christian, no matter what those on the Left say. It would be nice if people on the Left wouldn’t help them in perpetuating this fallacy by continually saying that we need to “be more tolerant” and “reach out to people of faith”. We ARE tolerant and we DO work with (and vote for) people of faith.
Find me an example of secularists within the Democratic Party attacking people of faith and maybe I’ll change my mind, but until then I think posts like this do more to perpetuate the idea that Democrats are anti-religion than anything else.
Nate– Jack may be sad to learn that Negroponte (war criminal) hasn’t officially sanctioned death for all, just indefinite detainment in secret…
Negroponte also told TIME that three dozen or so of the worst al-Qaeda terrorists held in secret CIA prisons are likely to remain in captivity as long as the “war on terror continues.” He added, “These people are being held. And they’re bad actors. And as long as this situation continues, this war on terror continues, I’m not sure I can tell you what the ultimate disposition of those detainees will be.” Negroponte’s comments appear to be the first open acknowledgement of the secret U.S. detention system and the fact that captives such as Khalid Shaikh Mohammad — involved in Sept. 11 or other major attacks on U.S. interests around the world — may be held indefinitely.
http://www.time.com/time/natio.....-1,00.html
Of the first 18 Presidents, 5 were non-church members (or non-communicants), and 2 were Unitarian heretics. Many were very lax Episcopalians. Several only became church members late in life.
Jackson and Polk were seemingly lifelong Presbyterians and may have been devout. There may have been a couple of others, but by and large the Presidents seem to have been either Sunday Christians born into a church, or else weak non-denominational Christians, and many of them had a tendency toward Unitarian or Deist heresies.
The political Christians are not ashamed to lie about these facts. I am not hostile to Christianity but the secularity of the American tradition should not be forgotten.
Presidents’ religion
Taylor,
The link to Waldman goes to Amy’s article. Both links go to Amy’s article.
It’s probably wrong to suggest that the religious right is “pro war”. Most of them apparently support THIS war- for a variety of reasons- including the fact that Clusterfuck told em from the beginning that God told him to invade Iraq. They are not pacifists- and there are few pacifists in this country- but they are not for any old war.
As Kevin Phillips points out- they are specifically against war for economic gain- which is why Clusterfuck could NEVER tell them the truth about Iraq. War for Oil is not Godly- no matter how ya spin it.
Was Mark Twain a democrat?
BINGO!. Ms. Marsh, you’ve scored a touchdown and a homerun all rolled up in one. This very article of yours should be the subject of intense discussion (behind closed doors) of Democratic leaders. True, we’ll never get 100% of “evangelicals”….but there’s plenty of room for many of them in the Democratic party.
My own scattered thoughts:
1. We should stop “wagging our finger” at evangelicals who want to amend the constitution. A more powerful message could be that we respect your rights to your beliefs, the problem is that, the way our forefathers set up our country, religion needs to be more of a personal matter.
2. On the public stage, debating Falwell on the premise that his political goals are just not the way this country was formed could have some traction….be one must be careful to avoid finger wagging as I mentioned above.
3. Image and message: face it, that jerk Rove HAS great talent here. But we can be, and are, as smart as him.
a) look at the Falwell quote in Ms. Marsh’s article above…something to the effect that democrats will never have our support as long as they’re pro-choice (abortion), and pro- gay marriage. Wait a sec. “Pro”? As in, I am “pro” Dallas Cowboys (yep!)….I CHEER them on. (yep!) BUT:
b) I AM NOT “pro” abortion! I do NOT “cheer” and go “ra ra ra” everytime I hear of an abortion somewhere…or learn that a woman made that choice. We need to LOSE the word “pro”. Instead, borrow from Howard Dean, who awhile back said on TV something like “we think the government should stay out of a family’s personal decisions”…or something like that. WORDS COUNT.
(c) “PRO” gay marriage: same as above. I don’t go “yippe yi oh kayee” everytime I see a couple of gay guys strolling down the street! I don’t “cheer them on”! Hell, truth be told, I don’t even want to see them kissing each other…but by golly, let the gov’t stay OUT of their personal lives. It sounds MUCH better.
Image and words are powerful when used smartly. I bet there’s tons of folks out there much smarter than me who can even craft the message better than me. And, getting to work on crafting an approach to evangelicals is a good road to go down.
Ms. Marsh, your article is brilliant. Thank you. Ghostman
The religious right thinks that dems are anti religious because they are in favor of abortion rights.
The Fallwellians have managed to twist this issue into one that defines faith- although you will not find ONE WORD about it in the Bible.
Most christian conservatives have accepted that line.
By the way- the mainstream religions in this country tend to be liberal- go to a Presbyterian USA or northern Methodist or Episcopalian church and you won’t hear any of the Falwell bullshit.
The problem is that these churches are losing out to the Southern Baptist convention.
Perception is reality. Many people in America have a perception that Democrats are “hostile” to people of faith. People of faith feel, rightly or wrongly, that we are hostile. Right-wing radio and Christian broadcasting, in conjunction with right-wing evangelicals, have perpetuated it through a constant campaign that it is true and the media has helped it along.
By the way, it was Amy Sullivan who said Democrats are “hostile” to faith, not me.
The point of my post was quite different. Remember, that’s our image, which has nothing to do with reality. However, that doesn’t mean you don’t have to deal with the perception. To do that takes actions, not just words. Reaching out to Randy Brinson means a lot more than what I can do on the printed page.
…and thanks Ghostman.
Dems aren’t going to “get” the southern baptist vote–not now- not ever.
They already HAVE much of the mainstream christian vote- the battle is probably over catholics more than anything. Dems always had em- and now they’re losing many of em. Some of em got rich and went gooper- others are following Fallwell into a spiritual wilderness- and of course the Pope’s a Nazi.
Of course on a local level- dems can do fine. Wyoming, Virginia, Montana- all have dem governors. It’s the national races where the cultural conservatives fight dems the hardest.
Thanks, smiley, it’s fixed now.
Love your style Taylor- Y’all come back now- ya hear?
You seem to support the Democratic party becoming the “not Republican Party”.
This is why the GOP continues to win. They are united (more or less), while we are united only in our opposition to them.
Thank you for the Jefferson quote on top, I’ve always loved it. How far we have devolved from our founders and the Enlightenment thinking they embodied.
You don’t have to believe in God, Buddha or Allah to respect the power, not to mention the practicalities, of reaching out to people of all types of faith.
Taylor, “God/Buddha/Allah” - is a mistaken conflation. The Buddha (meaning: enlightened one) is not a deity that one “believes in,” he was a human teacher and most every school of Buddhism is antithetical to the sky-god-creator bases of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
It’s an important distinction. The sky-god religions by their very nature plug more into reptile-brain tendencies of rigidity and fundamentalism. How is one to “reach out” to somebody whose “faith” is “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” In much of our world, this results in the stoning of women to death for having sex, the executing of gay people, and every manner of similar bullshit atrocity.
This is not any actual “power,” nor do I respect it. It is brainwashing and ignorance and at the root of the entire blooksoaked history of the human race.
I am wary of the notion of making some kind of common cause with people who presume to act on what their Omnipotent Imaginary Friend wants us all to do. Jefferson and the founders HATED this shit and struck out in a bold and consciously different direction away from it.
For my money, today’s Jefferson is Rev. Barry Lynn who heads Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. This organization is about respect for everyone’s “faith” but don’t you dare presume to tyrannize anyone’s life or choices with your inarguable god-says-this crap. This country and its incredibly beautiful First Amendment were founded on distinctly limiting the historic reptile brain sky god toddler murder mentality.
And btw no insult meant to decent and sincere non-murderous Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It’s not you that I nor Jefferson are talking about.
As a non-believer, I have no problem, in principle, working with religious people when our goals are the same. I’m all for inclusiveness, and frankly don’t give a damn what anyone’s religious views are anyway (except as how they are important to you). Unfortunately, whenever I hear people talking about mixing religion and politics, I get a bad feeling.
Why does environmentalism need to be couched in Christian terms for people to pay attention? Isn’t the idea that if we aren’t careful this planet might be unfit for human habitation enough? This may explain why non-believers tend to mistrust the faithful - it just seems so damned irrational to think this way.
I also distrust any talk of “inclusion” of faith because what it often seems to mean is the exclusion of those who don’t have faith. I’m used to hearing on an almost daily basis that Christians are under threat in this country, even though they’re 80% of the population. What “threats” do they perceive? They can’t put their religious symbols on public grounds unless everyone’s religion is represented. They can’t make “under God” part of the pledge of allegience to a country that has as one of its founding principles that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. People are inclined to say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” in order to acknowledge that nearly every religion on the planet celebrates the winter solstice.
In the last decade, I can only recall three regular characters on TV that were non-believers. All were on science fiction shows, and one was an alien. Yet the faithful complain that religion is denigrated on TV.
Let’s just say that there’s been a lot of mistrust built up over the years. I mistrust any talk of getting religion into politics because it is in politics, and on just about every conceivable side. Even if people have religious convictions that support my side of an issue, I’m suspicious. As someone observed here recently, Christians were a lot more pacifist when they were the minority religion. If there’s any better example of why actions speak louder than words, then I don’t know about it.
Dems are united on the things they are united on- equal protection and opportunity- policies that benefit ALL americans and not just the rich and powerful- a small but viable safety net- environmental protection. Regulatory agencies that actually regulate- etc.
They are NOT united on support for the war in Iraq- or on abortion- or on gay rights- or on drug legalization- BUT NEITHER ARE THE GOOPERS>
1,025 DAYS SINCE THE WAR BEGAN
Shalom to all on this day of redemption in Christian mythology, let’s remember that folks are still dyin’ and constitutional government is another day removed from us.
All this tuggin’ on forlocks and beatin’ the breast over how to win over or peel off some number of “religious voters” is jest so much self-flagalatiion. If elected Democrats at all levels just stood up for religious freedom and keeping the federal government and tax dollars out of the pulpit, the “religious right” voters would be cut in half. Those elected folks who are Xtian can do what the Big Dog did and quote populist scripture or Vatican II while the Jewish electeds ken quote the Old Testament passages of sinners in the hands of an angry god. And the humanist-secularists ken jest condescendingly preach freedom for mindless ignorance.
We have enabled the very small number of the right wing pseudo religious by takin them seriously. This fruitcake religiousity hasta be confronted by everyone in the rational majority but especially the rational “believers”. Real Chritians get off yer knees and put these hypocrits and blasphemers out into the ether with Jimmi Hendrixx!!
Enough of this whinnin’ about the power of the religious right…put on yer steel-toed boots, stand up and kick some pseudochristian ass!!!
KEEP THE FAITH WHILE YOU STILL HAVE IT, GOD IS WATCHIN’ YOU!!!
Btw, Taylor you’ve been just awesome these couple days - thanks for the great posts and also comment interaction - you do the Jane & Redd house proud.
Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should ever be inflicted upon children.
With Republicans, the political corollary applies as well, and we should never tolerate any GOP attempts to engage in the practice of either (religion or sodomy) in the name, or on the behalf, of our government.
sláinte,
cl
Dems believe that relgion/faith spirituality is a pro choice matter. Interfaith Alliance, Seperation of Church and State support religious diversity. “I will not support the anti Christ” was Robertson’s response to inclusion/acceptance of other faiths. Catholics, Protestants and all faiths will turn on each other, after they achieve their theocracy goals. The chief aggressors of course, would be the loudmouths like Robertson, Falwell, Randall Terry…turning on the Catholics, Methodists, et al.
By the way, the punditry are talkin about a new religious awakening on college campuses- which makes the gooper’s peckers rise- but then when they look at it a little more closely- they discover that the religious revivial is heavy into peace, stewardship, and charity- so they’re startin ta go limp!
On the Bible–It’s a BIG book- if ya wanna search for stuff that supports your prejudices- you’ll find it.
You can do that with the US constitution too RW just ask Justice Va Fanculo or George W. Clusterfuck
Why the GOP appears united-
It’s easy to be united when the common goal is greed and all for yourself. Their beliefs are everyone should look and act like them and if you don’t, you don’t belong.
The dems believe that everyone has an important role and has a right to existence. We care that everyone has equality. That belief will give the appearance of not being united.
Goopers are aided by the fact that any american household that makes over $70,000 per year thinks that they are rich and want their taxes reduced.
Taylor, you’re extremely intelligent & you see all the nuances but unless the democrats stop pandering to the right [take hillary’s warmongering, for instance], they’re going to lose my vote forever — i fail to see why secularists need to apologize for existing
as to buddha, spelunkers in india found an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features — to say that he was a real person is absurd — he’s just another fairy tale being like all the rest
Out of curiousity, in what denomination may our current president claim membership? He’s supposed to be a Methodist, but my understanding is that the United Methodist Church has officially demanded that he “repent” of his errant ways before he can be considered a member in good standing.. doesn’t that make him a heretic? http://www.theymustrepent.com/ for amusing reading (a nonofficial draft of formal charges of heresy to be brought against the president…) :)
The plain facts:
Since the unholy alliance between the Zionists and the Christian Zionists:
Almost a hundred thousand Christians have lost their homes, businesses, farms and dignity in Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
An ages-old coalition between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon has collapsed, forcing tens of thousands of Christians out of their homes, businesses, farms and dignity in Lebanon.
The secular government in Iraq has been destroyed by the USA, leading to a shocking erosion of rights for the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Christians.
This issue has seldom been comprehensively covered in the mainstream US press or TV/radio. Evangelicals don’t give credence to the kinds of sects which have survived in the Middle East and Southwest Asia since the time of Christ. Their uncharitable neglect of this issue will no doubt contribute to the fungelicals being “left behind” should their rapture hopes come to pass.
WHAT NORSKE SAID! KEEP THE FAITH, THIS IS A SECULAR COUNTRY DESIGNED TO PROTECT EVERYBODY’S RIGHT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING BUT NOT TO LET RELIGIO-FREAKS LIKE PAT ROBERTSON AND FRED PHELPS OWN THE JOINT!
Well, the “keep the faith” part was Norske, anyway
:)
I think it all boils down to philosophy. It’s the stand one takes with respect to whether you believe, as do the Republicans that men and women are born of a natural pre-ordained, pre-programmed propensity to do be selfish and do bad things. Or do we stand with traditional Democratic reasoning which teaches us, that human kind has a built in social contract consciousness to do good, have compassion, and help those who need a hand-up, and above all recoginize the intrinsic goodness of justice and what is fair. The eternal struggle then is between the Thomas Hobbs world view expressed in the “Leviathan”, that human beings are purely self-interested and that we must give ourselves over to an “unaccountable sovereign” (Bush) to decide what is wrong and right and keep ‘us in check’. Or do we instead choose to live our lives along the lines of utilitarianism (”the greatest happiness of the greatest number”)? I truly believe that real and true Democrats interprete and internalize the teachings, correctly, of the New Testament and the Golden Rule. And that Republicans of today do not. And that’s why I’m a Democrat.
undercoverdick — please point out where Taylor said he was a real person. As a practitioner of Zen I would agree that the conflation of Buddah, Allah and God is not correct but I do not think she misspoke in the way you said she did.
On this Easter, it is fitting that we should reflect on our good fortune that Tom Delay will soon gone from the halls of Congress.
After all, the man who said “let the people see Christ through me” and “people hate the messenger - that’s why they killed Christ” has never been shy about comparing himself to Jesus.
Here, then, is a look back at Easter Reflections on Tom Delay:
http://www.perrspectives.com/i.....032705.JPG
For more background on Tom Delay’s uses and abuses of Jesus, see:
“Tom Delay’s Christ Complex.”
Don’t think it really matters whether Buddah was a real person or not- why would anyone care?
OTT (Off Today’s Topic) but pursuant to a discussion here about a week ago…
Here is a good link to an animated discussion of the problems associated with using nuclear “bunker-busters” in Iran. Includes requested details, such as typical fallout map, estimate of deaths, etc. The information is consistent with the links I posted before, from the Federation of American Scientists. The plume calculated is for a megaton warhead, which is somewhat larger than I was discussing, but consistent with the stated Iran mission.
Attacking Iran with nuclear weapons would be insane. Even planning for it goes past beyond I consider to be reasonable. Our Founding Fathers would be ashamed of today’s “Fundie Father.”
The corporate Republican media has made the perception that ‘Democrats are atheists” a key meme foe decades…since the 70s anyway. It’s no wonder to me that 35 years of indoctrination on this point has made Democrats the Party of Atheists. I’m an agnostic when it comes to religious beliefs…but I have never had a problem with anyone believing whatever they want…as long as it doesn’t infringe on my rights to be agnostic.
Hopefully, people are starting to “get it” as far as the fundemental hypocrisy of the RW radical fundies who really don’t care much about beliefs, but do care a lot about political power and $. When the Republicans lose that base, they are done. Completely.
Edward T - it’s systematic enthic cleansing going on there. Hard to grasp but there it is.
Blub @ 1:13 pm (#46) - That letter was written in 2004. Haven’t they kicked Bush and Cheney out by now?
Remember that Clusterfuck threatened to use Nukes in Iraq- apparently it’s a part of his war buildup routine.
It may be too- that he’d really like to drop a few and see how big the “boom” is.
Kind of cute how GW Clusterfuck is so fascinated with nukes- sort of child like and lovable isn’t he?
Cowboys love smoky ol bar rooms and nuclear weapons.
It would be great, IMO if the following message could get some play in public discourse:
If you need to craft legislation to enforce the specific details of your moral and religious beliefs, it is a sign that you are a FAILURE at being an inspiring example of that faith.
True faith, lived simply and in humility, inspires others, and when it is undergirded (as it MUST be to be truly Christian) by unselfish love, it draws others like a magnet. If you cannot inspire others through the shining example of true piety, you are a FAILURE at “preaching the gospel.” Once you must hammer your target over the head with legislative force, you have signalled that failure.
In my life, I take it even a step further. I subscribe to the principle of Francis of Assisi, who said “Preach the gospel at all times, but use words only if you absolutely MUST.” And everyday people flocked to Francesco d’Assisi in the thousands, in the way it is said in the gospel that people flocked to Jesus.
If people have no idea by your very presence in the world that you are Christian, then all the talk in the world will not convince anyone who is discerning in matters of the spirit that you are. Clanging cymbals, and all that.
Thanks, sharkbabe. And yey, Blub, this is for you and anyone who is curious about George’s church going habits. Can you spell hypocrite? Perception is reality in politics.
What most–including many of the president’s fiercest supporters–don’t know, however, is that Bush doesn’t go to church. Sure, when he weekends at Camp David, Bush spends Sunday morning with the compound’s chaplain. And, every so often, he drops in on the little Episcopal church across Lafayette Park from the White House. But the president who has staked much of his domestic agenda on the argument that religious communities hold the key to solving social problems doesn’t belong to a congregation.
It should be a politically intriguing story. Bush is one of the most explicitly religious politicians in American history. Both of his presidential campaigns have used religion to appeal emotionally to voters. The entire philosophy behind his signature slogan, “compassionate conservatism,” rests on the belief that religious communities have a unique ability to tend to the nation’s social ills. And yet, after the flood of coverage around Bush’s first–and only–visit to a neighborhood church during inauguration weekend in Washington, D.C., no one has bothered to report on the president’s whereabouts on Sunday mornings.
Around Washington, D.C., it’s considered bad form to point out that Bush doesn’t regularly attend church. “You don’t have to go to church to be a good religious person,” argue his defenders. And they’re right. They have made much political hay, however, over polls that indicate Democratic voters attend church less frequently than Republicans, so even the most brazen feel compelled to offer explanations for Bush’s absence from church membership rolls. … …
Link: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i.....ivan101104
They already HAVE much of the mainstream christian vote- the battle is probably over catholics more than anything. Dems always had em- and now they’re losing many of em.
Demographics work to offset that. The growing conservatism of n-th generation Catholics happens as they move into the ‘burbs of Noonerville. But are Latino Catholics going to vote GOP when their churches are part of the anti-Tancredo movement? (Heck, Tancredo’s family is Catholic. Him? Not so much.)
What you have to remember is that Catholicism’s relationship to politics is a class function more than it is a theological function. My home-town church in the north of England still reflects its working class roots in Irish and Italian immigration; many parishes in London and Oxford, out of the Cardinal Newman tradition, are much more hoity-toity. If you’re a working-class Catholic, you’re much more likely to get hung up on issues of social justice than zygotes; if you’re well off, you have the economic freedom to head off into Santorum country.
Lobster @ 1:17 pm (#52) - A megaton is overkill - more than likely the yield of a bunker buster would be in the kilotons. The yield I see mentioned the most is 0.7 kilotons.
I think that the big problem with this sort of bombing is that any target is likely to create a mini-Chernobyl, no matter what kind of warhead is used. Some might be worse than others (I’ll leave that discussion to the people who know what they’re talking about), but this campaign promises to yield more than the usual amount of resentment, and it promises to have a long half-life.
I came upon this interesting tidbit that might explain why WaPo is pro Bush:
The Washington Post has devolved from being the vaunted citadel of American investigative journalism to little more than a gelding cheerleader for the current occupant of the White House. The moral collapse at the Post has nothing to do with ideology, and everything to do with greed.
When the Washington Post Company announced its earnings on October 31, Dow Jones Newswires reported the following: “Revenue rose 10% to $706.1 million from $640.3 million, helped by 40% revenue growth at Kaplan division. Newspaper-publishing revenue grew 4.4% to $211.4 million, but revenue declined in both the television and magazine-publishing divisions.â€
Absent the huge increase in revenue from its Kaplan, Inc. educational materials subsidiary, the Washington Post Company would have been a money-losing organization, the kind of corporation where executives conduct layoffs prior to being fired themselves. The explosive growth at Kaplan was due to the largesse of George W. Bush, the politician whom the company’s flagship newspaper treats with tender loving care. It is the Bush program mandating the testing of schoolchildren across America – tests for which Kaplan supplies materials - that makes the federal government a lucrative source of revenue for the Post’s cash cow.
Al Gore opposed such massive uniform standardized testing…….
by David Podvin
Several of you write that we are “a secular nation”….well, ok. I imagine that from a legal standpoint, you’re right! But think how that “sounds” to the “ear” of someone who’s religious. That person might be saying: “why, listen to those democrats. They won’t even recognize god! In fact, it sounds like they don’t want me around…because I do believe in god, and send my kids to sunday school!”….and….off that person goes to the republican volunteer center. See?
Message and image.
Ghostman
undercoverdick, I’m not a religious person, but as to whether or not Buddha or Jesus are just fairytale beings, really — how the fuck would YOU know?
Or are you just taking it on faith?
Hard for americans (including me) to understand “class” as it is seen in the UK.
Went to grad school with a couple of kids from University of London. They couldn’t abide “upper class” englishmen- and it seemed to have little to do with money..whole different world- or so it seemed.
hackworth @39–
I remember that Roberston quote.
He said: ‘You’re supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists … Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.’
http://www.gregpalast.com/deta.....&row=1
I just can’t think of what to say to someone like that.
It used to really bother me when I was doing patient care, and for hours at a time I had to listen to him because that was the only channel the patient(s) ever watched.
Hellish.
(still thinking about “class”)
Well maybe I can relate- remember when I started looking for a house in my home town. Looked over on the West side- (the wealthy side). My Uncle nearly had a heart attack at thinking that I would consider joining “them”.
Mrs. K8…
“Once you must hammer your target…you have signalled that failure”
hummm…I think,,, well said.
as to buddha, spelunkers in india found an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features — to say that he was a real person is absurd — he’s just another fairy tale being like all the rest
undercoverdick, indeed who of us has any way of knowing conclusively anything past our grandparents (and even that)? I don’t give a shit about some historical rockstar figure anyway. I care about the body of practical teachings and interesting offshoots that came about and evolved in south and east Asia somehow, based on this supposed historical figure in India. If it were to be conclusively/scientifically proven that the dude named Siddartha truly never existed, it wouldn’t affect in the least the utility and truth of Buddhist teachings that I’ve embraced and used in my own life. Literalism and freedom are inversely proportionate to each other - I choose the latter.
Here in KY I have just finished mowing a couple of acres with my brand new John Deere, singing Christ the Lord is Risen Today and I have The Bishop’s Wife on as I am typing this. First off and said STRONGLY: Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are NOT synonymous. Never have been, never will be. It’s like saying conservatives (think Phillips for example) and fundamentalists are synonymous.
I do have people in the Democratic Party who will roll their eyes over my faith - the “invisible man in the sky” mantra. So what? I have people in my own family who do the same (we run the gamut in my family - born again, borderline fundie, mainline UMC, Jewish and aethist). It bothers me about the same amount as dumb blonde jokes (and a little less than dumb Kentuckian jokes)*G* You could as easily offend me by saying that only someone stupid could like green better than blue, or German Shepards more than Boxer, or chenille more than silk.
Faith is not so petty nor so bitter that it curls up and dies when it is not agrandized. Faith doesn’t come from you politics, your political party, your NGOs or your pundits. The Beatitudes don’t refer to Karl Rove by name nor do they reference Dobson and Falwell and their ilk by description.
Does the person standing next to me in line to vote ‘know’ God? That’s not really the question for me and it’s not the question for faith. My faith tells me how I can be sure God knows them, or me for that matter:
Matthew 25:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’
No placemarkers were left to have room to insert: “I was gay and you stoned me to death” or “I was living in Iraq and you bombed my home, destroyed the hanging gardens, and enshrined Sharia.” The Beatitudes also skipped over the blessings of white phosphorous and napalm. They didn’t even include a “blessed are the political pundits” reference.
I agree that the Democratic party should not go out of its way to drive people of faith from it; but to be honest, I can’t say that I have respect for the faith of people who need to have the party offer up Stuart Smalley affirmations to them.
All that said, abortion IS the elephant in the room. IMO, the Democratic party needs to dig in and address that issue, not by becoming anti-choice, but by very strongly and affirmatively embracing the fact that it is willing to work and work hard to make abortion a choice that fewer and fewer women will ever need to face.
For many people, abortion is, for them, what the war is for many here. The “vote for a Democrat” no matter what is a theme heard in its own way as much as “vote for a Republican” no matter what.
When there is so much disgust by so many with their parties, you won’t sway many of them by telling that they shouldn’t vote for their party bc it has xy&z wrong with it. Look at the numbers - on how people feel about Congress and about where the country is going. People already know the problems with their party. They need to know that there is a better alternative. They need a message of Good News. ;-)
JMO, FWIW, and no more preaching. I have to go gaze lovingly at my new green&yellow.
He said: ‘You’re supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists … Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.’
Margot –
Well this one quote should tell anyone everything you need to know about the man. Even if you account for the fact that “niceness” is highly overrated and that when it is phony, it runs counter to true lovingkindness, the final sentence is what tips his hand for all to see. Spirit of the Antichrist?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Buddha isn’t a person, but a term for a person who meets some strict specifications.
What Would Jesus Do?
Well, if he’s anything like me, he’d be grateful to Taylor Marsh for her wonderful posts recently. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting lately, Taylor.
And now I’m off to the in-laws for several hours of quality time. At least the Mets won today!
Taylor Marsh (April 16th, 2006 at 1:24 pm) “And, every so often, he drops in on the little Episcopal church across Lafayette Park from the White House”
Wow, And we let him in? Considering most of our congregants spend a majority of their sermons bashing him or his policies, I’m really surprised he’d condescend to spend time in one of our churches. Maybe he just goes to throw spitwads into the offering basket and keep his fingers crossed at communion …. :p Then again, ecclesiastical justice can be slow. One mainline bishops managed to deny Christ’s divinity on the pulpit for decades before they finally forced him to retire….
oh, and dick -
an image of him that’s more than ten thousand years old & that shows him having strong african features
And you know this for certain how? Somebody told you? Oh, ok.
Really none of it matters, truly none of us can know or validate anything historywise! It is all about our own searching minds living in the world right now.
I often hear people (mostly cspan call callers from *red* states) saying that Muslims do not believe in God, they believe in Allah. It is a distinction of language only, sort of like Gott is God in German. Judaism has many different names for God. Just a little thing that irks me…
I found this particularly interesting:
from wiki:
Although, outside the Arab world, use of the word AllÄh is most often associated with Islam, it is not exclusive to that faith; Arab Christians and various Arabic-speaking Jews (including the Teimanim, several Mizraḥi communities and some Sephardim) also use it to refer to the monotheist deity. Arabic translations of the Bible also employ it, as do Roman Catholics in Malta (who pronounce it as “Alla”), Christians in Indonesia, who say “Allah Bapa” (God the Father) and Christians in the Middle East who use the Aramaic “AllÄha”
Cujo359 @ #63
I believe the .7 kiloton number currently being discussed is the non-nuclear option that will be tested in Nevada soon (Divine Strake, or some such). The options discussed in Hersh’s New Yorker piece, and in subsequent articles in which people claimed the nuclear option was the only way to achieve the goal, were larger.
Yesterday, someone in an NPR interview said (in passing) that the weapons contemplated for use in Iran were “small nukes” but this is wrong. The yields needed to achieve the mission are larger than the Hiroshima yield, by a sizable factor.
Sorry to interrupt this thread, folks. I promise to stop now.
Cujo: a nuclear bunkerbuster is a small standard thermonuclear weapon with a hardened, shockproof case that can burrow only about a yard into the ground. It’s top yield is .7Megaton but it can be dialed downwards. The Divine Strake test on June 2nd will be the largest non-nuclear explosion: that is the 0.7Kiloton blast. A nuclear bunkerbuster is NOT a tactical nuke: it is a ruggedized small hydrogen bomb.
We now return to your regularly scheduled discussion of your kind and loving gods …
Just to go back on one issue I haven’t addressed. I appreciate the point on conflation brought up by sharkbabe (#33) and Jane (#50), understanding the differences completely, so I should have made my point in a different way. Thanks, ladies, for pointing it out.
*ilson - more of those climate change artifacts on your way … good luck!
The problem I have with all of this is that it buys into the Rovian/Fallwellian wurlitzer that makes evangelicals the defacto christians and denies the existence of all of the mainstream religious groups. The hype that the bornagain crew pulled off to support their marketing blitz for high profit televangelists is now treated as a realistic picture of spirituality in america.
Yet I would guess that the majority of christian americans go to neighborhood churches in mainstream denominations and do not follow Fallwell or Dobson. And the breakdown of political affiliation most likely mirrors the broader numbers for the country.
My personal beliefs do not fall within a mainstream denomination (I identify most closely with Reclaiming tradition witchcraft) but I am constantly frustrated by the assumption that religious americans are all hanging out at mega-churches following the koolaid crowd.
We should be very careful about this - we too often accept the premises of the right and then react rather than checking the reality on the ground and acting from that foundation.
The strongest anti-bush people I know are deeply religious and have been standing firm for justice and liberty for many years. They don’t need us to convert them.
Sharkbabe,
You ken quote me or misquote me anytime ya wanna woman, and yes you made the point I was tryin ta make much more clearly than I…thanx.
Oklahoma Kiddo, ya don’t hafta do battle with Hobbes, that fight has been fought and if ya want a more “progressive” option take a line from ol’ George Hegel and the dialectic of history. Even the most fundamentalist of Xtians, the Puritans and Calvanists, denied any earthly monarchist claim to legitimacy…as a matter of fact, real Xtians (including Catholics) have a history of opposition to secular monarchy.
No Kiddo, these religious fascists have no legitimacy in the real historical experience of Christianity so let’s stop givin’ ‘em any face time or airspace…don’t be afraid ta stomp a couple of these fake xtians on yer way inta the church.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DO GOD’S WORK…KICK A FAKE CHRISTIAN IN THE BALLS AND CALL IT CRIME PREVENTION!!!
cathy #64:
Nice catch! I don’t know if you saw the comment last night re: the NYT’s profitability, but I thought that it was interesting as well.
Thanks!
angie –
I’m in agreement with your post in 78 — it irks me no end, too.
Of course these are people who probably believe that Jesus (and the Almighty) is American, so foreigners should get with the program and use an English (American) name. Sheesh.
Why does Falwell get his mug on TV all the time? Does anyone take him seriously even on the Christian right?
This man is to religion as McDonalds is to a good hamburger.
Mrs. K8– Yeah, that’s sort of how I felt when I was bathing patients and hearing those venomous words coming from that man.
Gave me shivers.
And the poor patients who were, some of them, dying, on vents, what comfort did they receive from this hateful preaching? Brrr.
Mrs. K8 (April 16th, 2006 at 1:37 pm): “Pot. Kettle.”
I’m increasingly starting to believe that they (fundies) aren’t hypocrites after all.. they just belong to an altogether different religion/worship a different god. Not to say that some of them aren’t nice, decent people and they shouldn’t be tolerated in the secular/multicultural society they seek to deny the rest of us, but it’s just that I don’t think they are theologically true to the Nicene creed anymore.. which many of them outright repudiate (much less to Luther’s teachings), and thus may not, in may humble opinion, be considered either Protestants or Christians…Oh.. I do really have to learn how to be nicer person.. it is Easter :)
last year we were fighting to get an LGBT expansion of Indpls’ non-discrimination ordinance. Of course the Fundies were there hollering about “Christians say: no sodomites”. We brought out a number of friendly local preachers and rabbis who were not hatemongers and who knew the Scriptures. The “God hates fags” argument was neutralized - the LGBT Amendment passed !