Bill Keller dips his toe into online interactivity with a canned Q&A:
Q. In a scandal-filled few years for The Times -- Jayson Blair, Rick Bragg, Wen Ho Lee -- the Judith Miller affair remains an unhealed, still-oozing wound. Miller has created a Web site on which she offers refutation to virtually everything you, Jill Abramson, and others have said about her misreporting on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and her subsequent misadventures.
The investigative report that appeared on the front page of The Times a few months ago by way of exegesis raised more questions than it answered, and it portrayed Miller as a loose cannon and a ditzy prima donna whose reportorial methods were often questionable.
Those of us who sought thoughtful information on the Miller fiasco were forced to consult bloggers for insight in the wake of The Times' silence. Why was Miller, after having dropped the ball (to put it mildly), allowed to keep reporting on WMD when she had been expressly forbidden from doing so? Why did The Times keep publishing her stories? What checks and balances has The Times adopted to assure us, your trusting readers, that there will not be future Judith Millers?
When it comes to internal problems that affect readers, The Times has too often been the last place to turn for "all the news that’s fit to print." Will you continue to drive us to bloggers in the future when it comes to airing The Times' dirty laundry that directly impacts the newspaper’s accuracy and credibility with readers, or is a new policy in place in which you will address institutionally discomfiting issues in print, where they belong, in a timely fashion in the future?
-- Neil Chesanow, Montvale, N.J.
Keller responds:
A. Sigh. I can't imagine that there is anything to say about the Judy Miller episode that I have not already said, publicly and to The Times staff, over and over. At The Times, as in most of the media-watching world, we have registered the Miller saga as an important cautionary tale, and moved on. But the story has an afterlife in the impending trial of Scooter Libby, and, as our Q&A mailbag demonstrates, the subject has settled into some quarters of the blogosphere as a partisan obsession and an object of grassy-knoll conspiracy theories. The hard-core enthusiasts feed on blogs that have little to offer but harebrained speculation. (And they think Judy Miller was credulous!) Mr. Chesanow -- one of the writers sampled above from a much larger batch on this subject -- apparently judges Ms. Miller to be an unreliable source, but he consults her Web site. Hello?
"While the questions of what Judy knew, and what she was working on, may be matters of general curiosity, the answers don’t touch the heart of the case,” he claims. “The question of what is going on with the case — meaning what the special prosecutor is up to, and why he seems to regard Judy as important to the case — is a mystery to me. It’s something I’d like to have answered — not just for our staff, but for our readers."
Now it can be told: President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney based their re-election campaign on lies, damned lies and statistics.
One interesting exchange occurred when Bill Keller, New York Times executive editor, allegedly told Miller back in 2003 that she would have to quit reporting from Iraq because she had become “radioactive….You can see it on the blogs.” Miller claims she replied, “Why do you give a shit about the blogs? They do not know anything.”
Apparently Keller judges the blogs to be an unreliable source, but he cites us as evidence. Hello?
Keller doesn't want to answer the questions of ankle biters about why he stuffed the story about the NSA wiretaps at the behest of the Administration for over a year, until the election was safely over and Dubya was back on the throne. While it is open to speculation whether the story would have had any impact on the election, it is becoming clear that BushCo. was sparing no efforts at the time to put the kibosh on bad press and was thoroughly willing to misuse its authority and cry "national security" if that's what it took. Keller owes more than a haughty harumph at those asking these questions.
And as long as he keeps providing reasons for his readers to abandon the Times and flee to the blogs in search of a community that asks the same questions and pokes holes in his bullshit, we'll be here.
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fitz ‘em if ya got ‘em
Too bad we can’t get a one on one with you, Jane, and Keller. We could clear it all up right now.
For Bill Keller: So exactly how is The N.Y.Times more accurate than say, FDL? Because FDL doesn’t use PR feeds from the White House? What sources do they have that are any more reliable than the ones cited in this blog? The newpapers might just be supplanted as more and more readers are turned off by the printed papers and go to where they are most comfortable… online.
Miller: Dupe or co-conspirator?
Keller: Dupe, or, well, Dupe?
the NYTimes in an unsigned Editorial weighs in on Hiatt/Howell http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04.....mp;emc=rss
Jane, do you want to add “should” to the sentence about 3/4 down the page?
“Keller follow the advice given to Fred Hiatt recently and check out his own paper…”
*ilson46201, that Times editorial is a wonderful smackdown of the Post. It’s a direct “up yours!” to Hiatt.
Just visited her website. Nice picture.
Jane, thanks as always for your terrific and energizing posts.
OT response to Ed*ard Teller’s request earlier today for HQ photos:
Do you have web access to the AccuNet/AP Media Archive? I ran some search terms for your first image and came up with two hits. I suspect access itself is licensed; I get it at a local college library. I fear permission to use images will not come cheaply.
Apologies to all for OT.
I’m with ya, they have nothing but scorn for those of us we require, no demand, more than cursory answers to important questions that directly affect our lives and our country.
Thank god for the blogs I say.
If all Keller was going to do was insult a (potential) customer, then why did he even bother to answer the question? As we’ve seen with the Jim Brady chats, the hosts have the ability to use the questions they want. It’s one thing to avoid answering a difficult question, and to quite obviously avoid answering a difficult question.
Perhaps someone with some PR experience can explain this to me.
artMonster -
Readers will go online not only as an alternative to the printed page, whose corporate ownership is an obvious conflict of interest to unbiased information, but also as a forum to discuss, parse, and help each other analyse the information. This is what is going on here, and at other sites. (And I am grateful everyday that Truth cannot be truly, successfully, suppressed.)
With WaPo and the NYT leading the way, the printed page’s popularity will be reduced to employee cafeteria crossword puzzles and the weekly TV section. Thank goodness for the NYT, they have their infamous Sunday Xword.
Nice link, *ilson.
Sorry for being the obsessive grammarian, but I think “sites” should be “cites”.
I hope writers like Keller continue their hypocritical stereotyping of blogs, because I think the blogs are going to win big-time on this issue, in the end. I wish we could get some good quality polling on the public’s level of trust in traditional news reporting. I suspect that, like trust in the Bush administration, it’s gone way down, but there’s not much historical data to establish a trend. Still, I think the pollsters should get involved in this issue.
If Bush and Cheney testified about the Plame leak, which they did, but not under oath, then what’s the point of their testimony? Perhaps it was just a p.r. event or a very poor attempt at one. Title 18, Sec.1001 of the U.S. Code, I believe says anyone falsely testifying in a federal inquiry may sentenced to a term in the federal penitentiary. If the pres. and his veep, lied in their testimony to Fitz, albeit not under oath, can anything be done with that testimony?
Of course I fail to understand why anyone would insist on testifying not under oath unless they had something to hide.
What’s with everyone adding asterisks to their handles? Am I missing something, and therefore being subjected to warrentless scrutiny even as I type this?
another excellent post. without the blogs, most of the news isn’t worth reading
the NYTimes smackdown is quite remarkable. It’ll cause waves in the journalism industry: it will roil the WaPo management and staff. Crackberries are beeping — Monday will be fun and games in the Washington Post offices…
Jane,
Before Bill gets here to nit-pick, please let me pre-empt him:
“Keller follow…” should read “Keller follows…”?
“…but he sites us…” should be “…bit he cites us…”?
Now that the pepper’s been separated from the flyspecks, please let me say that you’ve been en-freaking-fuego this afternoon! It’s sad that nothing but repeated, point-by-point refutations will keep this self-anointed media elite in line. Thanks for doing Keller’s job for him yet again.
Gail Collins’s rejoinder to Fred Hiatt’s “Good Leak” is NYT’s lead editorial tonight with the title “Bad Leak”. Link above at 5.
Many have said if we combine Wapo’s news pages with NYT’s editorial/op-ed page, we will have a perfect paper. Well, almost. I will take Gail Collins over Hiatt anyday. And I have been a subscriber for Wapo for 20+ yrs and suffer through the edit page. NYT has home delivery here in DC area, but we still take wapo because of local news and ads.
*ilson46201 @ 7:10 pm (#5) Thanks for the link. I particularly liked this bit of snark:
Shows what an editorial can be like when someone who is informed and has an operating mind writes it, as opposed to, say, what happens at the Washington Post.
Wow, Jane, a one two knockout, first Lil Debbie and the WaPoo and now the Keller and the NYT. Back to back posts that nail their refusal to tell the truth.
First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
—>
then they fight you,
then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi
Why is Bush/Cheney still in power? In significant part because Our “two top newspapers” are out to lunch, … along with at least one if not more of our TV networks.
This posting proves that Arguing with Bill Kelly is like arguing with a Repubican. Don’t waste your time.
the initial letter in my name has been so debased and degraded by the current Preznit, I figured it best that I be not associated with it any more…
Cujo359 #11:
Someone with p.r. experience needs to explain some things to Mr. Keller.
klevenstein @ 7:18 pm (#14)
Sorry for being the obsessive grammarian, but I think “sites†should be “citesâ€.
You’re correct. I missed that one :(
keller’s bloodthirsty warmongering in his nyt column, added to the parrot-like columns of tom friedman & william safire, helped bush & his chicken-shit team sell americans on the idea of going into iraq when anybody with half a brain knew bush was lying, hans blix was telling the truth & saddam was posturing so as to keep iran at bay
klevenstein says:
April 15th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
Sorry for being the obsessive grammarian, but I think “sites†should be “citesâ€.
Cites is a verb conjugated in the third person. Sites is a noun. I was using it as a noun, but thanks for reading it!! :)
jcricket
Not sure why but the comment I just posted is “awaiting moderation”. Hopefully, I have not offended in some way, and if I have, it was most certainly unintentionable and I apologize.
If nothing else, now I’ll be listening to the music in my head again: Rosemary Clooney singing Call Me Irresponsible just for me, all night long.
All that and dropping the hammer on Wild Bill, too. FDL, it’s fan-tastic!
Ha! How funny is that?? Klevenstein — I completely missed your reference!! God, life is just too wonderful. Irony and humor just pop up out of everywhere!! :)
EPU’d
dead last–what goes into your shrine is a photograph of your beloved children. I keep photographs of my children right by my workplace to remind me why I need to keep going. But thanks for the encouragement. People who can encourage others are very special and very important. Thanks for helping me. Your kind words may resonate out to others that you will never meet, but still you will have an effect on them. Ripples in the pond.
imman–many, many conversations with God with my fist in the air. Why are you doing this to us? Don’t you love us? Don’t you care? Reference several angry Psalms, it is the human condition.
MarcLord–i might be the passenger next to you on that ship to New Zealand. Pass me another blanket, will you? We may indeed live under a government that is actually insane. The question is how to respond. While considering compatible other countries to live in, I also contemplate leaving behind a large number of beloved innocent ones who will not know what is happening, nor how to reassemble their shattered nation after the fall.
why are grammarians wasting our time? are they so dumb that they can’t tell a typo when they see one? who gives a rat’s ass? i suspect they love bush so much that they’ll jump on anything to bring down his criticsTP helper taking a more cautions approach on this one.
What ecoast said: it takes Gail Collins to write an editorial on the work done by Bart Gellman and Walter Pincus. American papers don’t normally deliver fuck-yous through the leader page, but this one is a peach.
We have truly entered a new age. The old dictum:
“Never argue with someone who buys ink by the barrel” no longer applies. The blogoshere does not murder trees, cause litter (except for Cheeto bags and empty cans of mellow yellow). We lurch along, in search of some distant and theoretical truth, pausing only long enough to enjoy the occasional righteous beatdown of one who thinks he still owns the road to truth.
egregious-
God knows you can handle it, he just wants you to know it too. That’s why he’s doing it to you/us.
funny you mention going to safety in New Zealand. In the 1950s there was a famous movie “On the Beach” about the only humans to survive a nuclear war: humans living in Australia waiting for the inevitable lethal fallout to circulate in the jet streams of the atmosphere and rain down terminally…
cathy–Ok up to a point, but I violently disagree with the sentiment that ‘God only gives us what we can handle.’ I’m here to tell you, as someone who is mentally ill, that sometimes life gives us way more than we can handle. The correct translation of that phrase in the New Testament is that God will never allow us to be tempted, without providing a way out. VERY different.
undercoverdick @ 7:31 pm (#32) - I can’t speak for others, but if I were trying to embarass Jane about these things I’d e-mail Powerline.
*ilson-
I don’t think I would want to survive a nuclear fallout. How awful would life be after that happens. I think I would grab my daughter and head for the blast.
your next nitpicking assignment will be to do a spellcheck on Shakespeare when you are finished with Ms. Hamsher …
egregious-
Keep your eyes and ears open for your way out. I think that’s what we are all doing.
Jane
Two pwerful posts today. You may need to rename your site at “pitbullake”.
*ilson46201 @ 7:40 pm (#40) - I think Shakespeare gets a pass by tradition.
#32 We of the Jane Hamshers of the left, which, by the way, does not include Jane Hamsher, must ensure each and every post is as error free as humanly possible, to prevent those who come here from freeperville any room to critique on the merits. It doesn’t stop the ad hominem attacks though.
OK that should be “powerful” and “as” - trop de merlot
Oilfieldguy @ 7:44 pm (#44) It doesn’t stop the ad hominem attacks though.
Or any of their other rhetorical fallacies, for that matter.
Keller says:
Mr. Chesanow — one of the writers sampled above from a much larger batch on this subject — apparently judges Ms. Miller to be an unreliable source, but he consults her Web site. Hello?
So, according to this unlogic, if we read the NYT and criticize its bad decisions, we are somehow wrong.
Mr. Keller’s logic is nothing short of bizarre.
just because we slow down to gawk at a car wreck doesn’t mean we are therefore advocating reckless driving…
I don’t respect Keller.
If he had balls, Keller could have told the WH that if they’d didn’t come up with anything to counter the spy stories, he would publish it two days before the election. Keller didn’t act from power but from weakness, as far as I can see. Judy’s role in setting up the WH propaganda and the rest of the reporter problems show a lack of insight, internal control and institutional incompetence. Their latest quarter financials show even more problems. They ain’t taking care of the public or their business.
The newspaper role of informing the public when there is danger to the populace, abuse of the public trust and direct violation of the Constitution was not fulfilled - and I am suspicious of those possible rationales by Keller and the NYT to mitigate those public transgressions.
As Ben Bradlee soberly noted during Watergate, “If we’re wrong, it’s our ass.”
The lefty blogs disrespect liars and those who are irresponsible with the public trust and will continue to do so vociferously. Their anger is a direct correlation to the oppression of the truth by this administration and the mass media. It’s a well-placed anger which represents a swelling majority of the population’s frustration and fear of Bushco. The second-rate performance of traditional media sources like the NY Times and the TV media are seem to have a certain complicity if not corroboration in this state of affairs.
And, quite frankly, we don’t need to welcome Newt over the rainbow. Fuck Newt. We have the facts and will continue to discover more. That’s what Newt was running from, and he can keep on running forever as far as I’m concerned. His complicity in our state of affairs will always be draw a certain spolight. It’s not like he is so innocent.
John Krogman @ 7:55 pm (#47) - Especially if, when you take that logic to its obvious conclusion, one should stop reading the NYT if there are mistakes in it, not criticize it.
Probably has already been referenced, but BillMon has some typically classy comments on the MSM vrs. the lefty blogs.
Cujo,
Don’t know where #32 was coming from, but a refreshed read of Jane’s post will show what she thinks of our contributions.
Jane do you ever rock!
This is top notch writing - incendiary.
I’m hoping we can draw a bead on Roberts and Gonzo now for obstruction, conspiracy, abuse of power, corruption and accessory to mass murder.
Let’s take down all these rotten perps.
Thank you so much jane and everyone - we all owe you and each other so much.
This is huge people -we are going all the way with this.
rub a dub rub
three men in a tub,
all set out to sea,
Bush, Rummy and Cheney,
When all three found they had to pee,
and stood up as one and tipped the tub,
Oh me oh my, whoopee
Blub blub, blub blub,
blub!
Part of the answer is that the New York Times has been, since the 1980s, a real estate investment company that runs a newspaper as a sideline, partly in support of their primary business. Once you understand and accept this, their behavior becomes easier to understand.
If you read the New York Times, you will find that the most serious and credible section is the real estate section. Take a good look at it, the real estate section, not home and garden. You’ll see facts, numbers, logical analysis, rumor debunking and other signs of good journalism and clear thinking. Look elsewhere and you’ll see second rate thinking, blindfolded ideology, muddled trend following and the general gubbish that now passes for reporting outside of the blogosphere.
When the Times got out of the newspaper business, their goal was to eliminate everything that did not serve the interests of their new business. They kept the real estate section intact, and if anything, improved it. They needed to keep the home, garden and city style sections to influence stylistic perceptions as to which neighborhoods and styles of development were up and coming. These sections, basically fluff and agenda, expanded. They needed local reporting to report and influence local politics.
They did not need international news, save for the wire feeds. They did not need any national news, but they did need a Washington political page, since influence in national politics would serve the interests of their real estate empire. Compare a recent paper copy of the New York Times with an old one on microfilm or PDF, its noxious modern counterpart. The difference is fascinating.
In some ways we are back in the good old days of the late 19th century and early 20th century and the vanity papers. Watch the movie Gigi for a charming vision of this, and the wonderful Maurice “Shovel It On” Chevalier.
Now, imagine that your local hairdresser publishes a little newsletter to help promote their hair cutting and beauty treatment business. Dad used to run a newspaper there, and the hair salon is downstairs where the presses used to be. They’ve hired some high school kid to write local interest stories to encourage people to pick the thing up and read the more serious coverage of hair, social events, hair products and prominent local customers, not necessarily noted as such. In an article on Coiffeur and the Candidates, the kid manages to goad one of the slightly unstable campaign managers into burning down city hall.
You cut hair for a living. You took the kid off the town hall beat, and now the kid is off to college. Someone asks you about the incident. What do you, as a responsible hair salon operator say?
How about: “Sigh. I can’t imagine that there is anything to say about the [kid’s name deleted] episode that I have not already said, publicly and to [hair cutting place name deleted] staff, over and over. At [hair cutting …], as in most of the media-watching world, we have registered the [kid’s name …] saga as an important cautionary tale, and moved on.”
You might add a few lines about the amazing stuff that people will tell you while you are cutting their hair, and how an awful lot of it is scurilous gossip and poorly sourced.
Then, you get back to cutting hair.
Two great posts in a row, Jane! And the NYT editorial, Bad Leak, is a smart “Take That!” to the WaPo editorial pages and to Hiatt in particular.
I’ve just returned on-line to catch up (seems threads are growing much longer these past several weeks), but if I missed it, I’m sorry–Did ccmask return to mention his prediction (tick-tock, tick-tock)? It is the 15th. Does Bush step down tomorrow?
Like many have said, I too am deeply worried about what may be going on in Iran without report. Could there really be a military operation intended to provoke a war, without congressional approval??
Hyperlinks in Firedoglake posts are not apparent unless one happens to hover the mouse cursor over the link. It’d be nice if links were set off visually from other text.
I love the articles you publish here, especially the Fitz series and the political activism.
You have inspired me to conatact my rep and senators with e-mails and faxes. Your working relationships with Greenwald, C&L, and others have provided ample analysis and suitable talking points to make the effort of drafting a letter of my own a simple task.
Keep up the good work Patriots.
Typos matter. So do misspellings and wrong word choices. They can obscure meaning. Those of us who care about these things point them out not to embarrass or demean the writer (unless, say, the writer is from someplace like redstate or LGF, in which case we do it to mock them), nor to make ourselves appear smart, but rather to ensure that everyone correctly receives the writer’s intended meaning.
tryggth @ 8:02 pm (#57) - I read the WaPo article all the way through (at least, the one linked by BillMon), and thought it was written in such a way that people with short attention spans would get the idea that Mary Scott was a raving moron, but if you read past the first fifth, it reads very differently.
Hey now!
Along with all the NYT/WaPo FUBAR that continues, I’d like to challenge Keller’s popularly accepted throw-away of events in Dealey Plaza Nov. 22, 1963.
FACTS and evidence clearly indicate improbable ‘lone gunman’ THEORY (along with Arlen Specter’s ‘Magic Bullet’THEORY’) and SUPPORT more than one shooter, most likely from the Grassy Knoll.
Like Yogi Berra used to say, “You could look it up.”
Now, THERE was a coup.
Sorry for the OT, but just ‘for the record’, OK?
Now, back to regularly scheduled class in media analysis…
awesome SNL slapdown of Wolfie, W&Co and the WH press corps … a good dose of laughter
siun
Ya beat me to it! Worth the price of admission.
RBG @ 8:06 pm (#52) - Thanks. I noticed she’d changed the word. Once upon a time I or someone asked Jane if she minded corrections, and she said no. Now, if I happen to see mistakes I cite them, no pun intended - I just can’t think of another word, and let Jane or whoever decide if it’s worth correcting.
I’ve done enough writing to know how hard it is to read what you’ve written, particularly if you’re in a hurry, and find mistakes. No spell checker is going to catch the error that klevenstein and al-Scooter did about site/cite (as you’ll notice, I didn’t). That still takes a human mind. It’s usually easier for someone who’s trying to comprehend your words to see these things, because they’re trying to parse your english into a concept in their minds. Any little bump in that road is going to be more noticeable if you’re the passenger.
If I didn’t respect Jane’s and Christy’s writing I wouldn’t be here. It’s not just the chance to post anonymously that attracts me. I just make the comments about spelling and word use because I figure they, like me, don’t want to see the dreaded “sic” embedded in the middle of a quote from their writing.
Sunday op-ed by Richard Clarke and Steven Simon here…
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04.....ref=slogin
Grammer and misspellings will always occur, even among those of us who may be so eager to point them out from others. But how many of us can provide the content, analysis and writing skill to deliver this, as do Jane, Redd and others who contribute? We are witnessing a huge historical event; Jane and all are the players who are at the forefront of saving this country. Imagine if the numbnuts who are participating in this attempted coup were not contested by our blogs.
OT: Those interested in the retired generals speaking out might want to take a quick detour to HuffPo:
http://tinyurl.com/oogsw
There might be more subsurface motivation.
This piece is in WaPo by Richard Holbrooke, “Behind the Military Revolt”:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01451.html
(hope that link works) From last graph:
“But one thing was clear then [replacement of McNamara by Clifford] and is clear today: Unless the secretary of defense is replaced, the policy will not and cannot change.
That first White House reaction will not be the end of the story. If more angry generals emerge — and they will — if some of them are on active duty, as seems probable; if the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan does not turn around (and there is little reason to think it will, alas), then this storm will continue until finally it consumes not only Donald Rumsfeld. The only question is: Will it come so late that there is no longer any hope of salvaging something in Iraq and Afghanistan?” (brackets, mine)
al-Scooter @ 8:48 pm (#65) - I didn’t know McMaster was on duty in Iraq now. I bet he’ll have some tales to tell, and yes, I wouldn’t want to be one of the generals who let this happen. Specifically, I wouldn’t want to be Myers or Pace.
I don’t think that’s their motivation for speaking up, but it certainly doesn’t make them more reluctant.
Actually, a number of retired generals have offered criticism before of how the Iraq War has been handled. I think what’s different now is that they’re finally ready to call for Rumsfeld’s removal.
I always appreciate it when people proofread, we don’t have proofreaders and in our haste to get stuff up we tend to focus on content and mistakes in both spelling and grammar are always made. Having people point out our errors is always much appreciated.
The only time it bugs is when it comes with a condescending tone like somehow we should’ve known better.
Thanks for the very important posts from Jane Hamsher today. There may be another possibility for Howell -maybe she is a deep undercover liberal mole. It’s possible, since her latest argument clearly undermines public confidence in her paper’s editorial opinion. She admitted quite plainly that the *facts* are in the news stories and the editorials are completely unhinged from those said facts. I think that is useful inside info for people to know when they have to decide whether the paper’s editorial opinions are worth a rat’s ass. If she is a mole, then we will have to thank her for her dangerous work when she comes in out of the cold. OK… it’s a long shot, but could be true.
The reflexive blog bashing by media is getting tiresome. They don’t seem to do it whenever rightwingnut blogs come to their attention, though. They need to be called on that, and I hope the recent FDL bigotosphere festival helps with that.
I also hope FDL makes sure that they get the FDL URL into the next public dust-up with the media very prominently. You need to grab them by the throat and yell in their faces “What’s my name you PUNKS? What’s my NAME, you #!%&!! worthless editorial-fraud PUNKS?†Of course, I am suggesting that only if you are willing to do it in a respectful dignified way, for the benefit of humankind.
Also thanks for the posts by Taylor Marsh, she has highlighted some important issues. The Green Zone complex and the giant Iraqi bases are clues to BushCo’s real intentions, insofar as any mortal can figure them out. And this is not leftwing tinfoil hat shit either. A center right, but relatively objective Hoover institution expert in comparative government (Larry Diamond) has been repeatedly asking about BushCo Iraq basing policy for several years. He wants to know why Bushco won’t announce a policy on them, since from his experience in Iraq with Provisional Authority, says that would be very helpful in making progress with establishing credible government there. Of course, I no longer believe at all BushCo has any interest in a credible government in Iraq at all.
Ooops… I forgot, since a Hoover Institution expert has dared to question Holy Leader Bush in His Wisdom and Rightness, I guess we can right* Hoover off as a leftwing extremist den of sick communists who Hate America. Sorry, forgot about the current rules of debate.
Note for typo police: *right should be write
Right on, Copy Desk.
If anyone has doubts, please rest assured that I am an avid reader and a great friend of this blog, and have been for a long time.
It’s true that many of us care deeply about the quality of the blogs we patronize. That is why, as I said in #14, I believe we will prevail in the end.
It’s analogous to something seen in my professional world of aerospace computer engineering: when we use a proprietary, closed-source software item, we spend countless hours troubleshooting errors that are eventually isolated to this proprietary item, then wait weeks for the proprietor to correct them. When we choose widely-used, open source items, these problems are extremely rare, and if any are discovered they are corrected immediately in the large user community. This is an example of the power of community-”owned” and -operated products and services, like this blog.
Of course, if the community decides to pursue less admirable goals than quality and accuracy (like much of the winger-machine), then you get the “dark side” of the phenominon.
And, undercoverdick apparently didn’t get a very clear impression of my alliances. To understate it drastically, I have never had any love for any in the Bush cabal, and never will.
When my proof reading is good it is very very good. When it is bad, it is very very bad. I will say nothing about proof reading, since that will invite disaster for me, no matter what I say. I never passed a three minute math test in grade school either.
dana @ 8:56 pm (#66) - Will it come so late that there is no longer any hope of salvaging something in Iraq and Afghanistan?
For Iraq, I think Kerry’s plan is a good one. If the Iraqi government can’t get itself together pronto and start dealing with the real problems over there, then it’s time to leave. Afghanistan may still be salvageable, although it’s getting worse by the day. If we’d paid proper attention there instead of getting mired in Iraq, things might have been looking pretty good there by now.
Just pulled this off the WaPoo’s blog:
“Ms. Howell:
Thank you so much for your very insightful, “Two Views of the Libby Case.”
You wrote: “Some readers think it’s a scandal when two parts of the newspaper appear to be in conflict with each other, but it’s not that unusual that reporting — particularly in news and editorial — will depend on different sources.”
Ms. Howell, I am confident that your editorial writers will very interested in the sources listed on our web site:
* Background information on the Flat Earth Society
* The Flat Earth Society’s purpose - why we do what we do
* Why we don’t believe the world is round
* Scientific data and measurements backing up our claims
* Dispelling common myths about “proof” regarding round earth theory
* Uncovering the conspiracy to withold the truth from the public.
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e.....ociety.htm
We look forward to seeing your editorial.
Posted by: Flat Earth Society | April 15, 2006 11:57 P
I meant, I never got perfect score on a three minute math test, no matter how hard I studied and hoped against hope. See I should have said nothing about proof reading, and now will have to life with the curse for awhile.
here’s something that we hope will come from the military generals critisizing the inept performance of the civilians in command of our armed forces;
the troops have not been able to speak at all in any kind of critisism or joke about president bush
there would be repercussions
now, with generals doing it, let’s hope our boys and girls will find the freedom of speach that they actually enlisted to protect…god willing
I wonder who will be our Judith Miller and our Ahmed Chalibi during this time of crisis? Iran will Nuke this nation into dust without their fair and balanced information. All I can say is I sure hope there is some hopeless drunkin liar we can get to fill in for curveball. If not we are all doomed…..
Kaleberg #55:
I’m not quite clear on whether you’re suggesting that NYT is in the real estate business corporately or that it’s being used to further private, external real estate interests.
From a financial performance standpoint, given the NYC real estate market over the last few years, their shareholders might wonder what the NYT’s real estate exposure is netting them.
Thanks for the work you put into your comment!
…er, “phenomenon”, that is.
#72 and #66 re is too late in Iraq and Afghanistan: It has been too late ever since day BushCo took office. It will remain much much too late until they leave. We need to explain that to everyone we know who stil supports this disastrous set of policies. Things could change if US establishes credibility again, and can operate with domestic bipartisan (bipartisan with rational GOP actors, that is, not BushCo) plan and international cooperation. The media divas’ public crapping all over any plan offered by anyone other than BushCo is pure hot air.
klevenstein @ 9:00 pm (#69) - The strengths of this sort of blog and open source software are the same - lots of eyes that can make corrections, ask questions, and make suggestions. In both cases, user feedback is immediate, rather than having to be handled through intermediaries. It’s a bit tougher on the ego at times, but much preferable.
John Casper @ 9:02 pm (#76) - Sadly, the time has arrived when satire and sarcasm are the most appropriate form of expression for dealing with the WaPo.
Richard Holbrooke’s article, cited in 66 above, and Jane’s ripping of the NY Times are all tied in together. Unless the nation’s media quickly and forcefully start reporting the March to War with Iran, the same debacle will play over once again but with consequences so dreadful they make one sick to their stomach.
Cujo359 #70:
I’d lost complete track of McMaster. I sure hope he makes it home OK, he’s the kind of stand-up guy our country needs.
wesgpc No. 77
“and now will have to life with the curse for awhile.”
I assume you said “life,” when you meant “live,” as a joke. If not, I am respectfully bringing to your attention what may be an error.
OT (but its getting that time of the night for me)-
Has anyone here used Kaboodle? It looks like a potentially useful research and collaboration tool.
Email me if you have experience with the pros and cons of this thing.
thank you marily, markfromireland, and Steven Parrish– you are true and virtual compadres; we may not always agree @ FDL but at least we can think and express here in an honest and civil environment; sorry I had to be absent today, but the risk of stroke was too high…, and thank goodness for those very wonderfully human features of life– laaughter and kindness and nature! Thank you a thousand times over friends, and thank you Jane and Christy and all of your wonderful guest bloggers, the readers and published posters and the lurkers ( I was one for many, many months) that make me think and learn every day.
Casper #76: thanks for the ideas, you sent them on to WaPo, right? What Howell says might be true if it were a matter of how to interpret a contested and mutually contradictory set of facts, or disagree on how to interpret an agreed on set of facts, but ones that are difficult to interpret. Is that really the case here? I don’t think so. When the news department of your own paper reports things as facts that cut your editorial opininion off at the knees and makes if laughable, then that is a more serious matter, and what we have here.
We should ask Ms. Howell, that if the reported facts in the WaPo news pages are not to be trusted, what set of reported facts do the editors consider reliable, and upon what reporting do they base their opinions, and would not make their editorial opinion laughable? NYT? Knight-Ridder? Christian Science Monitor? LA Times? Reuters? BBC? What does she suggest we read, and what does she thing her paper’s own news pages have gotten wrong?
I would be interested to know if a reliable source could be any organization other than the RNC, WH, Fox News, or something very closely connected.
I used to scoff at the right-wing reference to the “elite-media.” But with every statement uttered by Brady and Keller I wonder who the hell do they think they are? Is publishing a paper really just a form of masturbation? The condescension, the dismissal of a perfectly reasonable inquiry, the condemnation of blogs - WTF? Why is it that every time they try to interact with the readership they make it worse?
At minimum someone should tell Keller: You are a failure as a manager. You don’t have control of your resources or your product. You can’t seem to tell if they write their own stories, if the sources are reliable, or why they might be in jail. Accountability is not in your vocabulary. Come out to the real world where executive management is held accountable - let’s see how long you last.
Yeah I’m fucking angry, and I’ve had enough of them all. I’m going to read the freaking local papers and rely on the blogs for what is important. Enough already.
Jim S at No. 85: You refer to the Richard Holbrooke article as “cited in 66 above.” It is cited in No. 69 above.
“Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.”
- Senator Patrick Moynahan
Killer coupla posts, Jane.
Jerelyn of Talk Left has a post up at HuffPo Blog regarding Plame, Libby and the 7 days in July.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....19207.html
Fingers and toes crossed the link works.
I’m not a Kossack, but I love Miss Information’s creative and highly-appropriate response to the WaPo/MSOC controversy:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....201415/509
I don’t know if FDL’s receiving an influx of de novo readers from either the WaPo or the NYT, but a mini-version* of her post every once in a while might be good. Just a little something to reassure newcomers that substance is welcome but trolls aren’t.
* FDL’s obviously much less complicated than dKos and positioned differently as well.
booya. how bad do they think they can get away with it before people call bullshit? or are the cocktail weenies so far up their butts they can no longer tell what’s bullshit?
I think someone needs to tell The Copy Desk that while Ms. Hamsher and Ms. Smith might welcome corrections to their posts, the rest of us find corrections to comments by commenters a little tiresome….
In their mad race to irrelevancy, who will win? NYT or WaPo? With staff cutbacks, declining readership, ads disappearing, revenues heading south, and as always the totally goofy content, it’s just too close to call.
“Wash. Post’s Hiatt repeated false defense of administration’s NIE leak”
“Summary: Washington Post editorial page editor Fred Hiatt, in an article in the Washington City Paper, was quoted reiterating the Post’s defense of President Bush in an April 9 editorial: that President Bush’s authorization to leak classified portions of the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) to the media was intended to make clear the administration’s reasons for going to war. But Hiatt’s statement, like the April 9 editorial, is based on a false assumption — that the administration’s leak of the NIE presented an accurate and complete picture of the intelligence…..”
http://mediamatters.org/items/200604130006
Cujo, you may be right about the WaPoo’s demise, but at this point I still see their news side, and the NYT’s as critical to getting things such as Murray Waas’ latest, out to non-bloggers. IMO the NYT’s and the WaPoo set the margin for the “left” wrt the corporate media. Everyone else lines up to the right of them. If only for that reason. I still think they are important.
OT, I had a “punaise” sighting on the previous thread, wasn’t that a welcome site.
TeddySanFran @ 9:36 pm (#97) - the rest of us find corrections to comments by commenters a little tiresome….
Not to mention useless. Jane and Christy can correct the articles. We can’t do anything with the comments besides shrug our shoulders.
Casper #76: thanks for the ideas, you sent them on to WaPo, right?
Guilty. The “Flat Earth Society” and the “Arranged Marriages” were both mine, but those web sites really do exist.
John Casper @ 9:38 pm (#99) Unfortunately, their editorial attitude makes it impossible to correct their mistakes. Shaming them, or presenting the possibility that they may soon be nothing more than a source of jokes, seems to be the only way left to get their attention.
bunnaise– wherefore art thou?
Byron “York misstated Fitzgerald correction”
“Summary: Byron