Screw military law.. I say… They have WAY WAY WAY too much power and independence in our country. The military must be subject to civil law. Change it!

The UCMJ is a statute enacted by Congress and signed by the President, the same as any other federal law. It can be found beginning at Title 10 United States Code Section 800.

Courts-martial are subject to appellate review by courts consisting of military judges at the first level of review, but also by civilian judges appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and by the United States Supreme Court.

Military members also are subject to the jurisdiction of civilian courts in the U.S., and of foreign courts in accordance with treaty agreements between the U.S. and the host country when stationed overseas.

No offense, but you might want to brush up a little on this topic at some point.

Zinni has been on all sides of the issue as have other of the retired generals. Hard to tell which of their positions they actually hold. I guess it depends on the moment in time.

Seaside, you have hit the nail on the head. There is a strong feeling among the senior ranks in the officer corps that getting out just leaves fewer and less experienced comrades behind to try and hold it together.

This also goes helps explain why the comments by the retired generals have focused on execution more than on policy, as there is a tendency to see criticism of the mission as bad for morale.

Civilians don’t realize just how big a deal it was that rummy announced Shinseki’s replacement prematurely (as chairman of the jcs, there’s nowhere else to go but out to pasture, but rummy essentialy made Shinseki a lame duck ahead of schedule). In addition, rummy didn’t attend Shinseki’s retirement ceremony. For a secdef not to attend a command officer’s retirement ceremony (and a chief of staff, even) is a huge breach of protocol that sent a very clear message throught the military. As a highly regimented and heirarchical organization, the military sees these things in much starker terms than a civilian would.

Finally, Zinni and Clark were three stars or better at retirement, and as such dealt with things at the command level, dealing with a geographic territory or type of operations. The guys speaking out now were 2 stars. These guys were division commanders, who had 20,000 or so personnel under their direct command, and all are from combat arms. That they would speak out against a sitting secdef during ongoing conflict is truly, truly extraordinary. Plus, these guys were coming out of ROTC at the end of Viet Nam. They went into the service when it was not a very popular career move, and morale, professionalism and capabilities of personnel on the whole were at their nadir for the 20th century. These are the guys who rebuilt the army, in terms of standards of conduct and human capital. (Which is why I hate miller so goddamned much.)

BTW, I only know all of this becuase my sister is married to a 2 star.

Someone needs to photoshop that picture to enhance Rummy’s sith-lord attributes.

“Do you feel it? Do you feel the power of the Dark Side?”

;>)

If you are still reading this thread, you might want to look through the previous comment thread. I think RevDeb made some excellent points re the straw dog of religion vs spirituality.

I think it is very important for all of us to learn to talk to each other about these issues without impuning the other’s personal choices and integrity.

I guess the best way ta put it is to say that religions and people active with organized religion today have only one responsibility before they can engage in the kind of colloquy you desire with the greater society…clean up your religious act, fight and win the battle with the pseudoreligious businesses and political machines to define youselves. Only after you have created a religious culture that can police itself can you enter the arena to offer paths to a better world for all of the rest of us.

Oragnized religion in the form that we have known it is dying…I have no idea the form in which it will re-emmerge but I am not gunna waste any time engaging with current “religious” folks about what religion has to offer until there is an honest, pogressive and intelligent religious culture to engage.

KEEP THE FAITH, IT’S YOURS TO LOSE AND GOD IS WATCHIN’!!

Someone posted a list yesterday or the day before of the differences between religion and spirituality. I’m not a religious person but I do consider myself spiritual in that I believe that there is something divine and beautiful about many of the things that have touched me, be it music, a spectacular mountain view, the innocent laughter of my children…etc. but that list struck a chord with me and I printed it out and asked my wife, who is devoutly Catholic, to read it. She appreciated all of the things that the list suggested “spirituality” brought to the table but she disagrred with the characterization (she might even say demonization) of religion. She simply said: that’s not what it means to me.

Complex, personal issue and I think you’re wise to avoid such discussions in a forum that clearly garners emotional opinions from every point on the spectrum. Sort of like talking politics at work. Not always a good idea if you like the people you work with.