Ever since Fitzgerald’s filing last week I’ve been saying that the "can’t he or can’t he declassify" discussion over the NIE was a red herring. We know from Fitzberald’s response that Cheney authorized Scooter Libby to disclose misleading portions of the NIE to Judy Miller for political cover, but he says nothing about whether anyone authorized Libby to leak the other two documents he showed Miller at the same time, one of which Fitzgerald takes pains to point out most certainly was classified — the CIA report regarding Joe Wilson’s trip to Niger:
Defendant discussed with Miller the contents of a then classified CIA report which defendant characterized to Miller as having been written by Wilson. Defendant advised Miller that Wilson had reported that he had learned that in 1999 an Iraqi delegation visited Niger and sought to expand commercial relations, which was understood to be a reference to a desire to obtain uranium.
Wilson didn’t write the report himself. But the fact that Libby admits he went to David Addington for legal counsel prior to releasing the NIE shows that he wasn’t just recklessly shooting from the hip, he wanted to know his ass was covered. It does not make sense on any level that he did not seek this same cover with regard to information that most certainly had not been declassified. And according to Murray Waas today, those suspicions were correct. Dick Cheney authorized Libby to leak the classified trip report to Judy Miller. (I’ve since spoken to Joe Wilson who says it is his understanding that the document is still classified.)
The evidence that Cheney was a key architect in the effort to discredit Wilson — and quite possibly Fitzgerald’s target — is growing. Says Murray:
On April 5, the special prosecutor in the CIA leak case, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, asserted in a court filing that Joseph Wilson’s July 6, 2003 op-ed piece in The New York Times criticizing the Bush administration’s Iraq policies "was viewed in the office of Vice President as a direct attack on the credibility of the Vice President (and the President) on a matter of signal importance: the rationale for the war in Iraq."
Moreover, on July 12, 2003, the same day that Libby spoke to both Cooper and Miller, Libby and Cheney traveled aboard Air Force Two for the dedication of a new aircraft carrier in Norfolk, Va. During the flight either to or from Norfolk, Cheney, Libby, and Cathie Martin, then-assistant to the vice president for public affairs, discussed how they might rebut Wilson’s charges and discredit him, according to federal court records, and interviews with people with first-hand knowledge of accounts that all three provided to federal investigators.
Let’s remember the key graf that was scrubbed from the Barton Gellman piece in the Washington Post shortly after it went online on October 25, 2005:
On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, the vice president instructed his aide to alert reporters of an attack launched that morning on Wilson’s credibility by Fleischer, according to a well-placed source.
Libby talked to Miller and Cooper. That same day, another administration official who has not been identified publicly returned a call from Walter Pincus of The Post. He “veered off the precise matter we were discussing” and told him that Wilson’s trip was a “boondoggle” set up by Plame, Pincus has written in Nieman Reports.
That Air Force II trip on July 12 is taking on increasing significance as time goes on.
Bottom line: this time there’s no wiggling out of it. Dick Cheney ordered Scooter Libby to leak classified information to a reporter for nothing more than political hay prior to an election when they felt that the truth of Joe Wilson’s allegations could hurt them at the polls. They spared nothing — not even national security — in the craven pursuit of power.
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FITZ ME PLEASE
Holy Fitz
What’s this Fitz stuff? I was in the mood for a good Iran post, personally…
Fitz like a glove!
You spoke to Joe Wilson? Lucky, lucky girl. Sigh.
Is this surprising to anyone?
sorry, not Iran this time (is there such a thing as a good Iran story these days?). I got EPU’d and FITZ’d. that doesnt happen often. if anyone is still interested in the sand toilet story, please see my post in last thread.
why the assumption that Cheney didn’t also “declassify” the other two documents? And Addington concurred?
We will have the pleasure of an Iran post quite soon, courtesy Swopa.
It has been increasingly clear these last few weeks that this was coming from Cheney. He calls the shots for this administration.
They will try to weasel out of this saying that there was no leak and they can declassify the moon if they want.
Fact remains that they lied, and lied about lying… and will continue to lie about it.
These are means selfish nasty people…
I will never forget cheney telling Senator Leahy to f*ck himself in the senate. To me that says it all.
Jane, may I say you and Redd are true American heroines. bless you.
EPU’d but on topic now…
From the article:
“It has long been known that Cheney was among the first people in the government to tell Libby that Plame worked for the CIA. The federal indictment of Libby — who has been charged with five counts of obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements to federal investigators in the CIA leak case — states: “On or about June 12, 2003, Libby was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson’s wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. Libby understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA.â€
[…]
The new disclosure also raises the question whether President Bush or his aides knew that Cheney may have been deciding on his own to authorize the leaking of classified information. Senior government officials said that top Bush aides — including then-deputy National Security Adviser Stephen J. Hadley and White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett — were not aware that Cheney had authorized the disclosure of the CIA report on Wilson’s Niger mission. These officials raised the possibility that Bush himself was unaware at the time of Cheney’s action.
[…]
WHen was that EO authorizing Veep Class/Declass authority?
Jane,
You and Christy are doing fabulous work for the people. And your guest bloggers are terrific too, especially Taylor Marsh. Thank you so much. And please never shut up!
Jane – How do you fit the timing of this latest Waas scoop into the big picture? We’ve just had a week of revelations from the Fitz & Libby filings. What precisely does today’s Waas piece add that wasn’t previously known, and, more importantly, what do you think led to the timing of this article? Who gave Waas the info, and why did they do it at this exact point in time?
Finally, what reaction, if any, do you think the release of this story will have on the Libby case and the ongoing investigation?
OT — ref the MSNBC Imus page pull quote by Tom Friedman saying he doesn’t understand why it’s the retired generals leading the antiwar/anti Rummy movement unlike the antiwar grunts of the Vietnam era.
How many ways can you say, Duh?
1. There is no draft. Jenna and not-Jenna and Pearce and George P. and Liz and Mary and all their ilk don’t have to go put their lives on the line. Again, Prince Harry has more chops than all the feckless neocons and fellow travelers of Bushco.
2. If you think there’s not antiwar feeling among ordinary people in uniform and their families, Friedman, you need to come out of the elitist cocktail weenie ranks and talk to real people without the filtering propaganda.
And Friedman? Willful ignorance is not a sign of character. Even delivered with feigned puzzlement.
I think that the over arching stategy of charging Libby with purgury was a brilliant means to get the real culprits exposed. It was only a matter of time when the facts would surface and there was no would be no place to hide.
We are almost there now.
Good post, Jane.
Care to clean up some puppy litter?
http://redstate.com/story/2006/4/13/113113/993
attempts to perpetuate the Joe Wilson is a liar meme.
C’mon, y’all, Play President Strutting-Chief-Leaks-at-a-Whim was just trying to Get The Truth out to the public, and VPOTUS was simply helpin’ out. It’s Hard Work.
the recent Fitz filing was a major political blow to this Administration. Bigtime! The continuing drips and spurtlets keep the pot boiling, keeping the WH off-balance. This Waas story keeps on confirming the developing meme of “Leaker-in-Chief” – not good for a Preznit who always trafficked in his “honesty and integrity” image…
that would be perjury…
but they sure wouldn’t mind purging this nation of some of the undesirables now would they?
What precisely does today’s Waas piece add that wasn’t previously know?
obsessed — All we knew was that Cheney had ordered Libby to leak information the administration claimed to have declassified (the NIE). This document, which Cheney also ordered leaked (the Wilson report) was not declassified.
From more than a year ago, “Air Force One Phone Records Subpoenaed”… That subpoena also sought a complete transcript of a July 12 press “gaggle,” or informal briefing, by then-White House press secretary Ari Fleischer while at the National Hospital in Abuja, Nigeria.
That transcript is missing from the White House Web site containing transcripts of other press briefings. In a transcript the White House released at the time to Federal News Service, Fleischer discusses Wilson and his CIA report. Common Dreams
Cheney (and Bush) is behind the leak, my opinion.
OT: Folks, I’ll be away and without Internet access for pretty much the whole weekend, until Monday night, starting in about an hour. My partner is kidnapping me for a trip to NY for my birthday.
Secularists that he and I are (one ex-Catholic and one nominal Buddhist), Easter matters not a fig in my family. But I respect everyone’s faith and for those of you who celebrate what is, theologically speaking, the highest point of the Christian holiday calendar, you have my sincerest best wishes.
Pach
Scooter is just biding his time waiting for his pardon and as *ilson46201 pointed out yesterday, Scooter is an expert on the Presidential pardon.
Thank you Jane and Redd for your excellent coverage of this. I rely on your posts and the responses of the commenters here. May the Universe give Fitz and his team all the strength and fortitude that they might need; our country truly needs them.
hey jane, good to see you again
sorry to go off topic so soon, but this really has to be comented on, I hope you do a piece
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=…..k&cd=2
a must read
Jane, good article. First, a typo:
to Joe Wilson who sasy it is his understanding
That one really stumped me for a moment. Guess I need more coffee.
Second, you said that the July 12 AF2 trip has taken on more significance. What significance did it have before? (If anyone other than Jane has an answer, please feel free, BTW).
General Tommy Franks is following orders from Grupenfuherer Rove and is proceeding to swiftboat General Newbold for the unforgiveable sin of questioning Don Crumbsfeld.
-GSD
Pachacutec -
Have a great weekend. Happy Birthday.
Cheney damaged our national security.
He put at risk countless lives who were involved with Valerie Plame Wilson.
Cheney orchestrated the illegal war, aided and abetted by the rest of the goons and ghouls in the WH.
He needs to be tried for treason.
OT–can I just say how very funny it is that chimpy has to spend Easter at the very fortified Camp David instead of his shrubby ranch in Crawford b/c Cindy Sheehan is there again… and he and the librarian have to watch all those gay families rolling easter eggs at ‘their’ house on Monday??? they must be so pissed.
That Air Force II trip on July 12 is taking on increasing significance as time goes on.
As a public service, I feel compelled to note that the definitive explanation of the events of July 12 was written last year at Needlenose.
I’ve been waiting for the revelations to catch up with my analysis for a while now. They’re almost there. :)
I think Bush knew all about the Libby/Miller fiasco before it happened. I believe Bush has his pinky in all the unsavory White House pies. And I am certain I sold this guy short. He’s not the nincompoop I thought he was. This president was aware of, approved of, directed all the dirty tricks, and was completely cogent of the pertinent and relevant facts before any wrong doing took place. Bush must not be allowed to hide behind Cheney’s skirts!
On 23, the source is from over two years ago. Blimey.
Jane, great post. Christy and you along with Jeralyn at TalkLeft have been on your toes. Thanks.
me to me -
#27, That is really amazing.
Dr. Bong, EO 13292 was published on March 25, 2003.
Ok kiddo: chimpy cannot hide– the two of them are dance partners in an evil waltz of power, death and destruction.
Happy birthday Pach. Many happy returns.
Pach-
Happy Birthday!
Oklahoma kiddo says:
April 14th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
“…I believe Bush has his pinky in all the unsavory White House pies. And I am certain I sold this guy short. He’s not the nincompoop I thought he was. This president was aware of, approved of, directed all the dirty tricks…”
He has “smarts” of the low-road type. He’s Lee Atwater on quaaludes. President Eminem.
Pachacutec @ 2:08 pm – Happy Birthday. The equinox has come and gone already, so this is just Tax Weekend for me.
In another sign of humility, the Bush/Cheney/Rove Oil Junta are erecting the worlds largest embassy in Iraq as we blog.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ew_embassy
A fitting metaphor indeed. I bet they are more concerned with rebuilding that embassy than with rebuilding the city of New Orleans.
-GSD
Oh, Pach, your message was so kind. Happy Birthday and enjoy NY. I live outside the city, myself, and will be thinking of you having a wonderful time. Cheers!
Happy birthday, Pach! Have lots of fun. So hope the weather cooperates.
HBTY, Pach. Enjoy the Big Apple. : )
I just finished reading Murray Waas’ article and came over to post a question, and find that I will not be OT & follows up on Wilson’s point that it is still classified
Here is my question: Supoosedly, Cheney has the power to declassify anything he wants. So, if that is so, then hasn’t he – by instructing Libby to broadcast portions of it to the media – in effect declassified it? Then shouldn’t it be available to anyone under FOI?
I am sure that is what Libby/Cheney would claim as a defense.
Or at least the precise portions he instructed Libby to release?
I don’t know how they can have it two ways. Either they were engaged in the leaking of classified info, a crime. Or the doc was declassified, which means that it should be available to any member of the public.
Would be nice if someone in the media posed that question to the office of the VP. Or the CIA.
Happy Birthday to you, Pach.
Jane, great post as per usual. If he hasn’t already, I hope Joe Wilson has FAXED (or via certified mail) requests to Cheney’s office and others requesting the classified/declassified status of his trip report. If the WH refuses to respond to his faxes, the faxes may be very important evidence down the road of the WH’s ongoing cover-up.
I’m confused on all these recent revelations.
Somerby at the daily Howler yesterday took reddhed to the shed and mocked all firedog lake readers as braindead (more or less).
Now I respect Somerby but he really has it out for Reddhed and Jane.
Makes me go, hmmmm.
The Waas article is great, both for the way it uses the filing that’s been available to us for over a week, and in getting senior government and even senior administration officials to give up knoweldge no other reporter gets. Regarding the article and this post, it is worth differentiating a couple of points: Fitzgerald is categorical that when Libby disclosed info about the Wilson trip-report to Miller on July 8, it was still classified. There is no explicit assertion, though, as far as I can see, that Cheney authorized or directed that particular action. Then there is the July 12 discussions with Cooper and Miller. There is no question that the strategy session on AF2 that day is crucial. And Fitzgerald is also clear that Cheney did direct Libby to disclose information from the Wilson trip-report to reporters that day. However, by July 12, as Waas tells us, small portions of the report had been declassified and released to the world the day before in Tenet’s statement. Those included, in fact, the one bit favorable to the administration – the bit that Libby had disclosed to Miller on July 8 – the bit about the 1999 meeting about “expanding commercial relations” between Iraq and Niger (even that is describing it too favorably to the White House). What Fitzgerald does not tell us is whether the information Cheney instructed Libby to disclose from the trip-report was still classified or was the declassified stuff. Furthermore, let’s remember that this is Fitzgerald’s take – and that document had at least one important inaccuracy – and it reflects the testimony of Libby.
In this regard, remember that there were two reports from back in the fall about this July 12 session on AF2. At least one – the Times’ – pretty obviously comes from Libby sympathizers, and it tells us that Cheney told Libby to refer to Tenet’s statement from the day before, which was obviously declassified. The other is the Gellman piece cited in the Post, and it refers to Fleischer’s attack, which largely reiterated Tenet’s statement (with one weird misleading twist, but no matter in this precise context). Are these accurate reflections of Libby’s testimony, or of what happened on that day? To the extent that they come from Libby sympathizers, I suspect the answer to the first question is yes, and the point was to say Libby only discussed then-declassified material with Cooper and Miller. If, as was suspected at the time, Gellman’s piece in particular is sourced to Cathie Martin, then we’ve got a different ballgame.
Apart from the question of the classified status of the info on the trip report Cheney instructed Libby to discuss on July 12, two notes to end on. Waas makes it clear how increasingly unlikely it is getting that Cheney did not discuss with Libby what to say about Plame on July 12. And we may be in for a blockbuster of a revelation in this regard if Cathie Martin was really there and if she has been as cooperative as it sounds like she has.
Perhaps the military ought to re-read some of the Nuremburg testimony. There is this gem.
“Politicians brought the Nazis to power and started the war. They are the ones who brought about these disgusting crimes, and now we have to sit there in the dock with them and share the blame!” (5/27/46)
-Admiral Karl Doenitz
-GSD
The Leak and the ‘Truth’
Submitted by editor4 on April 14, 2006 – 2:23pm.
By David Corn
Source: The Nation
“I wanted people to see the truth.”
That’s how George W. Bush explained his decision to authorize the selective dissemination of portions of a classified National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq’s WMD in the summer of 2003, when the main rationale for his war in Iraq was unraveling. But this was no exercise in full disclosure. It was a political operation. With former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and others raising questions about Bush’s overstatement of the prewar intelligence–none of the promised unconventional weapons, after three months, having been found–the Bush gang was beginning to worry. News reports at the time were carrying leaks from unnamed intelligence officials indicating that the President and his team had hyped the WMD threat. And a much noticed Wilson op-ed in the New York Times had made it seem that the White House had used one charge–that Saddam Hussein had been uranium shopping in Iraq–after the Administration had reason to know it was bunk.
So it was fight-back time. That meant discrediting Wilson as a critic. Top White House aides Karl Rove and Scooter Libby told reporters that Wilson’s wife was in the CIA and had been responsible for sending him to Niger to check out the report that Baghdad had acquired uranium there–a report based on sloppy forgeries that was easy to rebut. Their point was to make Wilson’s mission seem like a silly junket born of nepotism, which it wasn’t. (Wilson, an Africa expert with knowledge of the uranium industry, was qualified for the task.) But in this frenzy to undercut Joe Wilson, Rove disclosed Valerie Wilson’s CIA employment–which was classified information–to conservative columnist Bob Novak, who then outed her in print as a CIA operative. Libby passed the information on her CIA connection to two reporters, Time magazine’s Matt Cooper and the Times’s Judith Miller.
The recent twists in the Libby case show that Cheney was in the weeds, huddling with Libby about how to respond to Wilson and other critics. Special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald’s most recent legal filing notes that Cheney “specifically selected” Libby “to talk to the press about the NIE and Mr. Wilson.” That suggests that when Libby disclosed information about Valerie Wilson’s CIA employment, he did so under Cheney’s direction. As part of this Cheney-managed counterattack, Libby shared slices of the NIE with Miller–after Bush had told Cheney it was OK to release those portions. But Libby did not tell Miller about the parts of the NIE that raised serious questions about the Niger allegation. He only cited the passages that supported the Administration’s position.
Which brings us back to the truth. Had Bush, Cheney and Libby been interested in spreading the full story, they could have declassified the entire NIE (with redactions where needed) and tossed out copies in the White House press room. (The Administration did later release parts of the NIE to the press.) Instead, they tried to deploy pieces of the NIE as ammunition in a spin attack. And once the Valerie Wilson story broke, the White House covered up the involvement of Rove and Libby in the leak and said nothing about Cheney’s hands-on participation in the anti-Wilson efforts. After all, it was Cheney who first told Libby that Valerie Wilson–a k a Valerie Plame–worked in a division of the agency’s clandestine service…
—
Yep. drip, drip, drip, drip, drip…
Happy Birthday, Pach, and thanks and congrats to Kevin, Taylor and Jane for today’s mind-bending posts. I tend to digest things slowly so I’m still chewing on the first few; let me tell you, today’s postings have been seriously nutritive (if that’s a word; if not, it should be!).
A few people mentioned Erich Hoffer’s The True Believer and I’m thinking the great rightwing noise machine is deliberately designed to keep the wingnuts from realizing just what kinds of losers they are — as long as things are loud and intense enough (and I do think that that kind of explosive expressiveness is somehow a compulsive if not truly addictive behavior), they can maintain their delusions and do not have to admit their personal insecurities/failings/unhappiness/problems/etc.
My other tardy thoughts have to do with we leftish and religion/spirituality/whatever. We obviously have, on this blog and in general, a very wide range of beliefs or convictions, and that should be a strength, rather than a weakness. But where it becomes a strength, I think, is where we truly model (excuse me for sounding corny here, but I really, truly mean it!) the best this country has to offer: our Founding Fathers, our founding documents, the Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights — and all the flavors of We The People. That IS our strength, right? That’s why we’re here at FDL — and it’s precisely what we need to SHOW to the Fraidy-Cat Unthinkers: that what we have * works*. It is our strength. It is not a weakness. We just need to feel it as a strength, that’s all.
Somerby is a hack stand-up comic who is bitter that his stand-up career never really got him anywhere.
-GSD
If the report is still classified how did Wilson respond when you asked him about his legal vulnerabilty given his extensive revelations of the contents of the report?
angie…
“the two of them are dance partners in an evil waltz”
You say it sooooo…well.
timewarp @ 46, it has been asked of Snottie McFelon with his usual response…can’t comment on an ongoing investigation.
Whoa. Digby.
The Wilson report? That would be the one the VPOTUS claimed he had never seen and had no knowledge of? Or is that some other Wilson report?
eRiposte gives a serious fisking to Somerby’s critique:
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007375.php
thebewilderness -
The one the VPOTUS claimed he had never seen, yes, that one.
The problem with criminals in general is that they simply don’t think they’ll ever get caught.
New poll numbers:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/14/16410/7588
Still think censure is a loser for Dems, Chuck and Rahm? Plurality supports censure.
Ugh. I need to chill, before I let these people piss me off going into the weekend.
. . .
Too late.
zennurse 46 – I know, he also says (of question re Cheney), you’ll have to bring that up with teh VP’s office. Or the CIA. So, has anyone asked the VP or the CIA if this doc is declassified. I know Wilson says it is not, presumably because he has tried to get it (he didn’t write it). Either Cheney declassified the doc when he gave Libby the go-ahead to discuss it, or he didn’t, which means a crime was committed, in addition to the Plame leak itself. Valerie Plame was not mentioned in the doc!
Pach:
Be gone with you… Big Apple awaits. :-)
Pach – have a very fun weekend. It is rainy and miserable up here. :-(
During the Brit Hume interview with Cheney after he shot an old man in the face, I remember there being that strange question about declassifying info and whether Vice had the authority. It was so out of place in that context, but obviously they knew this was coming. I wonder why they thought that comment during the interview was going to help?
I went over to Somersby’s blog when it was posted earlier this week and had a look around. He is a very unhappy person, so angry and nasty, I felt very uncomfortable there. just my perception.
Also, timewarp, I think there are some limits to what Cheney can actually declassify on his own,(Stephen Parrish had a good link) and I also heard a somebodyimportant from somewhereimportant saying today that it would be very striking and unusual if in the process of the declassification by Cheney he didn’t discuss it with the originating agency, in this case the CIA. So the question about Cheney remains kind of unanswered. Bush is the one who is Superman and Spidey combined.
timewarp at 58: I read yesterday that we have been in IRAN for about a year already — stirring up trouble.
obsessed, 15, thanks for that question.
Jeff, thanks for your 50.
here’s the text to these cadets, taken down already and had to recover from cache;
OUR PURPOSE
To help reclaim the honor of the United States Of America
TO JOIN
West Point Graduates Against The War
click here
——————————————————————————–
Instilled by the Cadet Honor System with a fundamental, longstanding respect for truth, we graduates of the United States Military Academy believe that honor is a basic attribute of character. That we are no longer cadets is irrelevant. We stand appalled by the deceitful behavior of the government of the United States and, in particular, its widely known malefactors. Lying, cheating, stealing, delivering evasive statements and quibbling not only has demeaned these deceivers and the United States of America, but has placed vast numbers of innocent people in deadly peril. We will not serve the lies.
The war in Iraq was launched illegally. It has since killed tens of thousands of innocents, causing incalculable damage to Iraq and the Iraqi people, as well as the reputation of the United States of America. We will not serve the lies.
When we West Point graduates took our commissioning oath of office one past June morning, we swore to protect our nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. The deceitful connivances of the current administration have resulted in a war catastrophic to our nation’s interests: politically, economically, militarily, and morally. We now stand to protect our nation from these deceivers. We will not serve their lies.
We seek justice for all victims of this illegal war, both servicemen and servicewomen, and the citizens of Iraq.
To our purpose we invoke the words of Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence whereby we too “mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor.â€
Thanks for the left coaster link on Somerby.
I swear, it gets so confusing w/ the right wing always throwing up lies and such, so when someone like somerby does it, I gets confused.
Combine Glen Greenwald’s post about Bush can do what ever he wants according to Yoo, with Digby’s post about Iran, and we are in for some uglyness in the near future.
curious 68 – I read that too. But Digby is implying that *real* reason the Generals are so stirred up is because there is an out and out covert war going on, with our troops. That is they think the President of the United States has gone completely off the rails.
BTW – It would not surprise me if the Iranians wanted this fact on the ground muzzled. Ahmadnejad is very unpopular (as are the mullahs in general) and it would not improve their credibility with the fiercely nationalistic Iranian people if this were known.
Happy Birthday Pach.
OT: Bush and Cheney Tax returns – released late friday of long weekend — of course.
Bush: http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/im……taxes.pdf
Cheney: http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/im……taxes.pdf
dannyboy @ 2:31 pm – Yes, it is a source of strength. I’m a non-believer, I suppose if you want a quick synopsis of my views you should check out that Penn Gillette article that Taylor linked to a couple of threads ago. As an outsider, what I’ve observed about religions is that what people get out of them is pretty much what they want. Those who want to be kinder or more generous find a reason. Those who want to be ignorant or hateful will also find what they’re looking for. It’s up to them.
Religion is just one more reason we divide ourselves up into hostile factions. It all goes back, I think, to the fact that we spent the first 150 millenia of our existence as hunter-gatherers who had to jealously guard their territory from the other hominids so that they could survive. We’ve killed each other over differences in economic theory, for crying out loud. Getting rid of religion would just provide one less excuse for the mayhem we seem to want to commit anyway.
Inside these modern exteriors we’re still mostly the nasty little upright monkeys we always have been. If you don’t believe that, do some research on chimpanzees, which are the two closest species to our own genetically. They’re such nasty little buggers it’s hard to imagine how we humans managed to become even this civilized.
The only religious beliefs I have serious objections to, other than the ones that believe in animal sacrifice, are the ones that say that some book written long ago is the source of all truth. I don’t care what book that is, whether it’s the Koran, the Bible, or the Tora (sp?), it’s just a book of stories, fables, and folk history. If you take it as the real and literal truth, you’re crazy.
Felices cumpleaño, guapo !
I understand zennurse, I am trying to make the point that Bush/Cheney can’t have it both ways.
And where the hell are the Vichy Democrats? Are they just going to sit by and twiddle their thumbs? It is not as though they have any real power to loose, and if they are afraid to go down, they may as well go down making a hell of a noise.
Happy Birthday, Pachacutec. We’ll be celebrating the anniversary of your birth at my house with chocolate eggs and a honey ham.
timewarp #73 — okay; read Digby — can you tell me more
There’s a lot of interest in keeping the story within the OVP, isn’t there? But I’ve never been able to believe that the idea of the “nepotism” angle came from anyone but Rove.
However, could these leaks to Waas be the bus that everyone was talking about yesterday, the one that’s got Scooter’s name on it? And maybe his big bad boss too?
Pachacutec @ 2:42 pm (#62) – It would be nice if it was a large majority supporting censure. Hell, it should be a large majority. The Bush Admin. have clearly done enough already that I’d be pissed if I were a conservative (well, hard to know, but I think so). They’ve broken the law, leaked what may or may not have still been national secrets to the press to justify a war that we clearly didn’t need to start, and have corrupted politics to a degree we haven’t seen in my lifetime.
Unfortunately, I think until Democratic politicians start speaking up in greater numbers there won’t be that much support. Until that happens the TV news can ignore the issue.
Thanks for all the birthday wishes.
Rain, who cares?
The Mets are winning. I’ll run outside and splash like Gene Kelly.
Pach 62 – It’s your b-day? Happy returns.
Imagine if ANY support had been given on the censure – plus factor in that it is almost a certaintly that some of those “no” censure votes are people who are so pissed they won’t be happy with anything but impeachment. Whether that is 1% of 5%, it is pretty certainly some number.
Feingold & Leahy!!
Jeff @ 2:28 pm (#50) – Good answer to my question, thanks. Looks like at least part of this narrative depends on Libby’s testimony, which, considering that he’s been charged with various forms of lying, is ironic. Still, it looks like, at the very least, BushCo is once again guilty of selectively (de)classifying material for its own political benefit.
Ms. Hamsher, you’re giving me a headache. Oh….not YOU, and not on purpose….it’s this whole damn convoluted mess of those months of June-July, 2003. I sense that, thread by thread you, and others are unraveling a ball of WH lies and bad behavior. It’s just that I lose sight of one thread during analysis of another thread. A couple of thoughts:
1. Ms. Hamsher, in another of your articles, you wrote something which caught my eye. In the article, you wrote….something about how, part of the explanation for all this is that a Ms. ?Abramson? of NYT is just mistaken in her belief that Miller never approached her? Remember? I guess what I’m saying is….maybe if you combined your thoughts on “that” article with the above, we start to get an even clearer picture of the events?
2. Debbie Martin….hmmmm. She doesn’t get mentioned very much. Why? And what does she know, and what has she said, and what has she done?
Thank you again Ms. Hamsher….I bet that pretty soon, a coherent nitty-gritty timeline will come about…and even much more will come into focus. Ghostman
oops…that’s CATHIE martin.
“Fitzgerald said that Cheney authorized Scooter Libby to disclose misleading portions of the NIE to Judy Miller for political cover”
No, Fitzgerald did not say this.
With regards to the leaked/declassified/classified (?) Wilson trip report Cheney and Libby may be blazing a new trail in science of document secrecy. Just as the Heisenberg uncertainy principle allows energy conservation to be violated for a brief fraction of time according to a well-known equation, the Cheney-Libby leak principle may allow for a short period of declassification before a document becomes re-classified. The time period would be just enough for a reporter to get the information on paper before the window of secrecy was closed again. The discovery of this principle by Cheney was so breath-taking that he wasn’t able to talk about it when last interviewed by Brit Hume.
Libby is charged with obstruction of justice not leaking the CIA’s name. Because Cheney told him to tell reporters doesn’t mean he had a right to lie to the grand jury. Fitzgerald has all the players and the game plan. Remember Nixon didn’t know the plan he sent the plummers out to just get it done. Bush gave the go ahead Cheney/Rove split up and gave many journalist the leak knowing you couldn’t pin it on one person. It was a group efford and they got caught. Libby will have to plea bargin as he is guilty.
“The only religious beliefs I have serious objections to, other than the ones that believe in animal sacrifice, are the ones that say that some book written long ago is the source of all truth. I don’t care what book that is, whether it’s the Koran, the Bible, or the Tora (sp?), it’s just a book of stories, fables, and folk history. If you take it as the real and literal truth, you’re crazy.”
Speaking only on behalf of Xtianity, orthodox Xtians imo believe that God’s revelation is ongoing, the truth of God does not end with the scriptures. The prism, however, for Xtians for evaluating/discerning the ongoing revelation is the Hebrew scriptures (old testament) and the new testament. Xtians about 250ce (which puts it about 75 years prior to adopting the Trinity as a way of describing Jesus’ relationship to God) did not “close of the canon,” because they thought God’s revelation had stopped. People were arguing about the nature of God and trying to introduce other books, Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Peter for example, as orthodox. The Xtian scriptures are supposed to act similarly to the U.S. Constitution with respect to Xtian conduct and belief.
With that said, I think a lot of Xtians are simply wrong, heterodox, in their beliefs and believe what you say, “that some book written long ago is the source of all truth.”
IMO, the outstanding 20th century theologian would agree with your criticism.
“Tillich argues that doubt is included in every act of faith.3 The dynamic concept of faith helps to explain the interaction between faith and doubt. Every act of faith recognizes that there may be a possibility for doubt.
If civil or religious authority enforces conformity among members of a community of faith, then faith loses its uncertainty, and the element of risk is removed from the act of faith. This may also happen if a law, creed, or doctrine excludes any possibility for uncertainty or doubt.
Faith as ultimate concern requires the courage to make a personal commitment. The risk involved in faith is related to the presence of uncertainty. Faith may become non-dynamic, or static, when the risk of uncertainty is excluded by a law, creed, or doctrine. Thus, faith may be either: dynamic, when uncertainty is recognized and overcome by faith, or nondynamic, when the possiblity of any uncertainty is excluded by faith….”
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/tillich.html
” Batiste said. ‘We went to war with a flawed plan that didn’t account for the hard work to build the peace after we took down the regime. We also served under a secretary of Defense who didn’t understand leadership, who was abusive, who was arrogant, who didn’t build a strong team.’ “
Transcripts of Batiste interviews:
Raw Story
Thread Theorist 89. THAT’S exactly what I thought!
Thread Theorist @ 3:22 pm (#89) – Typically, classified documents contain unclassified portions. Those are the parts that can be discussed without checking clearances, need to know, etc. It’s possible that Libby only discussed the unclassified parts of this document with Miller/whoever. I don’t know that this is true, mind you, but it is possible, and one needn’t invoke Heisenberg to explain that.
It is also possible, as we’ve discussed before here and elsewhere, that the Bush Admin. selectively declassified portions of these documents that fit their case for war in Iraq, and left the rest classified. This is what they appear to have done with the NIE.
Thanks, Jeff.
Libby was instructed to leak the NIE and the Wilson document on July 8, though, which was three days before Tenet made his statement. The significance of the AFII conversation on the 12th seems to be that there were witnesses (as you suggest, Cathie Martin) who are talking.
BTW Vally Girl just compared the Lexis/Nexis version of the Gellman article with the one that now appears in the WaPo. It’s fabulous. If you’ll email me I’ll forward it to you, but I’ll have more later tonight (I hope).
Pach — Alles Gute zum Geburtstag! a.k.a. Happy Birthday!
———–
Let me make a point here about Somerby: he absolutely, from the depths of his spleen, DESPISES Joe Wilson. No one seems to know why, but that has been true since just about the very beginning.
Any bit of news on the Plame scandal HAS to be spun by him to reflect badly on Joe Wilson.
Consequently, anyone who expresses positive sentiments toward the Wilsons will likewise be on the receiving end of one of his snit fits. In this case, it happens to be FDL.
I’m tempted to email him the photos Mr. K8 took of me and Joe Wilson chatting up a storm. The very fact that I’m smiling and engaged in the conversation in the pics should be more than enough for Somerby to HATE ME, personally. Sheesh.
I do not understand what precisely the bug up his butt is regarding Joe Wilson, but it’s just about as pathological as LIBBY’S bug up HIS butt (remember the notebook binders with the pictures and the circles and arrows on the back of each one?).
Somebody call the CDC to report this new and strange intestinal parasite! Somebody should ask Somerby if he used the same restroom after Libby was there.
Tweety had his “Hot Shots” segment again- this time with Rita the Ace Cosby filling in the lineup with the other conservatives.
One of the questions asked was “If the dems win one house of congress, will they investigate the hell out of President Clusterfuck”- the Hot Shots all agreed that “Yes- there will be continuous investigations”.
This is becoming a gooper campaign slogan. They are betting that Americans don’t want these investigations. Of course if they are WRONG- they are slitting their own throats.
Batiste, like Zinni, has been on all sides of the issue. How do you know which of his opinions even he actually holds?
avaroo — well yes, in so many words he did. But I changed the language to be more specific.
News Flash–Tucker Carlson has given up his bow tie- but is still as big a twit as ever.
No, not in any words did he say that.
Timewarp #78
“And where the hell are the Vichy Democrats? Are they just going to sit by and twiddle their thumbs? It is not as though they have any real power to loose, and if they are afraid to go down, they may as well go down making a hell of a noise.”
Remember what happens to belligerent Democrats.
http://www.conspiracyplanet.co…..amp;page=1
If I was Russ Feingold, I wouldn’t be getting in any small airplanes.
Cujo389 – according to Jane, according to Wilson the CIA document reporting on Wilson’s trip has not been declassified.
Also Libby’s “characterization’ (love that word) to Miller that the CIA report was written by Wilson was a lie.
I’m no fan of Scooter Libby or Dick Cheney, but we must be accurate about what has been said by Fitzgerald, exactly, including his own retractions and/or corrections, and we must be honest.
new thread – new Persia
rwcole – I saw that, the open collar Jr High look. A transitional period to long pants – er ties.
Avaroo @98-I think Batiste has nothing to lose now by speaking the truth and per the Sy Hersh article, these retired military are speaking in an effort to stop a misguided and disastrous military plan for Iran. I respect the limits placed on them when they are on active duty and this guy was been commanding a division, forward deployed in Germany with soldiers in Kosovo, Turkey and Iraq. He was trying to make a bad plan work, to help his troops deal and fight. Under those circumstances, I can forgive him for trying to keep thier chins up. One of the generals, while being interviewed, said his troops were “young….so young”.
avaroo — please feel free to send me whatever copy of Fitz’s memorandum you are looking at, it appears to be different than mine:
Defendant discussed with Miller the contents of a then classified CIA report which defendant characterized to Miller as having been written by Wilson. Defendant advised Miller that Wilson had reported that he had learned that in 1999 an Iraqi delegation visited Niger and sought to expand commercial relations, which was understood to be a reference to a desire to obtain uranium.
Libby and the Administration well knew by that point, as did Colin Powell, that this claim was bunk. It was, is and always will be an attempt to mislead.
Cujo359@94. Yes, I can see that there could be holes in my explanation such that a Nobel prize is not on the horizon for Cheney and Libby. On the other hand, I remember a description about a manager whose explanations were hard to believe: “Some people make it up as they go along, but this guy makes it up after he went along.”
“Avaroo @98-I think Batiste has nothing to lose now by speaking the truth”
so, you believe him now rather than before?
“and per the Sy Hersh article, these retired military are speaking in an effort to stop a misguided and disastrous military plan for Iran.”
Not sure Sy’s all that credible.
“He was trying to make a bad plan work, to help his troops deal and fight.”
So, he lied in public back then? Cause he sure wasn’t saying this, or anything even close to it back then.
Jane, nowhere in this:
“Defendant discussed with Miller the contents of a then classified CIA report which defendant characterized to Miller as having been written by Wilson. Defendant advised Miller that Wilson had reported that he had learned that in 1999 an Iraqi delegation visited Niger and sought to expand commercial relations, which was understood to be a reference to a desire to obtain uranium.”
can Fitzgerald be found saying “that Cheney authorized Scooter Libby to disclose misleading portions of the NIE to Judy Miller for political coverâ€
We do ourselves no favors when we are less than accurate and honest.
avaroo: Yes, that information — for anyone who has been reading the papers from the past several years — is known to be false.
We do ourselves no favors when we are willfully ignorant.
Jane, what’s “known” changes daily. My point was we need to be careful to be accurate about what has been said. It’s quite damaging enough without anyone embellishing it. And there’s no need to.
I’ll also point out that Fitzgerald actually hasn’t proven a thing, all we have are his accusations. We’ll need the trial(s) to establish uilt on anyone’s part.
ooops, make that Guilt, not uilt.
Wilson said he never wrote a report about his 2002 Niger trip.
So what classified report did Libby discuss with Miller?
Was it Wilson’s 1999 trip report or was it the 2002 trip report and Libby lied to Miller about Wilson being the author (instead of the CIA)?
Wilson gave only a verbal report on his trip. He wasn’t even asked to provide a written report.
GSD 29, would that be Gen., *ok by me if Iraq costs 50,000 US soldiers lives, even though I thought we were going in for WMDs and that was a big oops* Franks? http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0320-28.htm It is a disturbingly casual swagger. I really urge anyone who hasn’t to read Newbold’s piece (I’m guessing he didn’t get Frank’s $75,000 appearance fee for writing it). I don’t agree with him on staying in rather than redeploying, but he is the kind of leader you would trust with the decision: Someone who cares enough about whether your son or daughter or husband or wife or brother or sister is going to be blow up that they will try to make sure they get all the info they need and do the right thing. Newbold v. Gingrich = someone you can disagree with and trust v. someone you can agree with and not trust at all.
It is a tough situation for people in the service, both footsoldiers and their commanders. I know someone mentioned that USAF and Navy are not getting chewed up like Army and Marines by this war, but even so – they have generated their share of those who try to do the right thing, just maybe not at the same rank.
Mora is, IMO, one of the most to be admired but unfortunately his story shows just what can be expected anytime the President or Rumsfeld promises to allow for a real, independent military assessment on issues. The impetus for Mora’s action and involvement, too, were the rank and file and mid-level Navy who were assigned to handle interrogations and they showed their worth. The pilot from the carrier off the NO coast who rescued American citizens while commanding officers sat back. The defense counsel that have now, finally, been appointed at GITMO and are making lives miserable for Rumsfeld’s crew of miscreants by standing their ground that no fair trials can be conducted under “RumsRules†of proceedings. Ret. USAF Col. Sam Gardiner, who back in 2003 was publishing his paper on planted stories and propaganda . http://www.usnews.com/usnews/p…..ruth_1.pdf
Let’s not lose sight of the fact that when we went to war, we have something like 40% of Americans then being polled who thought some of the HIJACKERS for 9/11 were Iraqi, despite all the 9/11 findings and public reports that identified the identities and nationalities. What does that say? Especially when the number of Americans right after 9/11 who made an Iraqi link of ANY KIND was under 5%. Propaganda labeled for “home audience†is being found, “journalists†are getting payoffs for plant pieces, etc. Didn’t the poll of service members (the one that found only somewhere between 50-60% thought it was not ok to abuse prisoners/detainees) find something like 70% of them thought they were there – the mission – was because Iraq had a 9/11 connection?
How proud can a commander be, knowing his troops are dieing and being blow to pieces at 18 and 19, believing a lie as their mission? How can Franks not acknowledge the abysmal command failures that resulted in the loss of Bin Laden at Tora Bora? Or acknowledge the perception that losing Bin Laden then certainly opened, for this administration, the doors marked: Iraq War, Unconstitutional Actions, Violations of UCMJ, Cronyism With Private Contractors, and so many more. Where is Franks, btw, when we discover that a Halliburton subsidiary is being paid for passing off contaminated water to troops, when troops are not getting uparmored humvees, etc.? I guess is doesn’t really even matter to him if the numbers mount – to 5,000 or to 50,000 – as a result of incompetence as opposed to battle.
And as for the call to bring in Powell? Nah – this is who we needed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2705275.stm Stormin Norman called it in Jan. 2003, before we went in. He said to wait for reports and inspections and not rush to war, he recognized THEN and said it openly that Rumsfeld was being dismissive of the army. “[Speaking of Rumsfeld] When he makes his comments, it appears that he disregards the Army,” he was quoted as saying.
“He gives the perception when he’s on TV that he is the guy driving the train and everybody else better fall in line behind him – or else.”
He was a Bush family loyalist too, but a guy who actually would have gone toe to toe with Rumsfeld for the military. Bush did not HAVE to be such an immoral mess – there were plenty of conservatives who I would have disagreed with, but respected, and who could have helped make his administration successful on some fronts at least. W’s egomania may have been at the heart of it all, but the fact that so many were so feckless makes it a very large pool of cess. It took an Administration, not just a man.
If you have a moment, this is a great read. Reality in Desuetude (or, Iran So Far Away) http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..121414/821 and the quote that starts it, finishes it for me. We had too many who thought that we needed to be able to throw out all the rules, if doing away with them might somehow be ‘advantageous’ to the war on terror, or to their corporate ambitions, or to their desire for power (knowing, of course, that in “their†hands power could reside bc they were among the “goodâ€), or their *higher* desire to empower a country they loved and felt had taken an assault, or their fear:
“So let us regard this as settled: what is morally wrong can never be advantageous, even when it enables you to make some gain that you believe to be to your advantage. The mere act of believing that some wrongful course of action constitutes an advantage is pernicious.”
– Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)
Pernicious.
Thread Theorist 89 – Edmonds? ;-)
timewarp 58,
That is seriously scary. And spocko, in Digby’s comments, highlighted this from Sy Hersh’s article:
“If the order were to be given for an attack, the American combat troops now operating in Iran would be in position to mark the critical targets with laser beams, to insure bombing accuracy and to minimize civilian casualties.”
It all sounds so exactly like the sort of thing these insane bozos would do–start a secret war w/out saying a single word to any member of Congress.
avaroo
Which year’s trip are you talking about?
what does epu’d mean?
sheila, you just got EPU’d. It means you posted a comment after a new thread had already started, and most people will go there and not see your post. Named after an FDL commenter named Evil Parallel Universe.
thanks neurophius! i never would have figured that one out.
Wasn’t Cheney only allowed to declassify what CHENEY had classified in the first place? If so, perhaps he did indeed see the Wilson debriefing CIA memo when Wilson first was debriefed, realized its import and classified it on the spot to take it out of circulation? Adds more to the tilt of Cheney persuasive lies in Tim Russert fall ‘03 interview. One wonders if Cheney or whoever followed the rules to classify it in the beginning. Goes to cherry picking not only what you use but what you lose as well.
This will be epu’ed, but I stopped reading Somerby when he seemed to be intent on proving that people in NOLA during Katrina had actually fired on helicopters trying to deliver help. It seemed very strange, very weird. Does anyone else remember that?
(I’ve since spoken to Joe Wilson who says it is his understanding that the document is still classified.)
Well, that doesn’t square terribly well with his Op-Ed, which said:
Moreover, it’s hard to see why Wilson’s misleading summary of his report is okay, but a correction would leak classified information (I guess if it’s false it’s not really classified, eh?). And I take it this is the claimed “classified leak”:
If so, the document might possibly be classified, but that bit certainly isn’t . . . it was released in a public statement by Tenet on July 11, 2003:
Libby and the Administration well knew by that point, as did Colin Powell, that this claim was bunk.
I’m not sure what your point is here. Is it that Wilson gave a verbal report (and the document was written by the CIA Reports Officer)? Or are you disputing the conversation between the businessman and Mayaki in Wilson’s report?
“Fitz understands how time and politics work together in a corruption scandal… An analogy: A good demolition expert knows where to place the sticks of dynamite and how to time their blasts so that the building implodes on itself avoiding collateral damage and leaving the remaining debris in manageable and easily removable chunks. So it is with a smart corruption conspiracy prosecutor… He knows when and where to place his charges so that the conspiracy infrustructure implodes on itself.”
from my dailyKos diary…
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/14/184740/482
“Fitz understands how time and politics work together in a corruption scandal… An analogy: A good demolition expert knows where to place the sticks of dynamite and how to time their blasts so that the building implodes on itself avoiding collateral damage and leaving the remaining debris in manageable and easily removable chunks. So it is with a smart corruption conspiracy prosecutor… He knows when and where to place his charges so that the conspiracy infrustructure implodes on itself.”
from my dailyKos diary…
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/14/184740/482
I’ve been saying for over two years that it was far more likely that Cheney architected the Plame leak than Rove — even though it is more delicious to imagine “Karl getting frog-marched in handcuffs.”
Why? Very simple: You just had to watch his body language during the run-up to the war to see that he evidently believed he had the authority (given by God or Bush, I don’t know which) to declassify anything that suited his purpose.
I think most of us got a bit side-tracked by Wilson’s intemperate remark and by Rove being our favorite symbol of everything that’s evil about the Bush administration. I hate Rove too but let’s focus on truth, not truthiness.
The truth is probably this: Cheney is the fascist madman behind almost everything having to do with the GWoT and Iraq. He may also be the one feeding Bush’s self-sense of being the Chosen One. Cheney is like the manipulative Cardinal Richelieu behind the King.
Bush is just a plain and simple dumbf**k.
Cecil Turner — Fitzgerald said the document was classified at the time Libby leaked it. When you become Special Counsel you can be the authority, but until then “secret” and “classified” do not have the same meaning.
Is there some kind of comprehension problem going on here today?
When you become Special Counsel you can be the authority, but until then “secret†and “classified†do not have the same meaning.
Thanks, I’m quite aware Secret≠classified. However, surely Wilson, writing in the NYTimes for the casual reader, did not mean the report was “Confidential” or “Top Secret” . . . but not “Secret”? Did he? And since when did the Special Counsel become the authority on matters of classification?
Is there some kind of comprehension problem going on here today?
Nice. Sorry I bothered. Cheers.
And since when did the Special Counsel become the authority on matters of classification?
Yes, you know, here we assume that he has done his homework and knows what he’s talking about before he levels a charge like that. Furthermore, nobody has disputed it. Occasionally eveyrone makes a mistake, but Murray Waas backs him up today.
EPU’d by design
i bow to the avantgarde who built and sustain this site with awesome wit and courage. not to distract (hence the title of this note), but as a steady reader i’m noting intermittent interest in the strategic story behind the empirical and tactical details. pardon the lack of particular references, but reading back in the fdl threads in recent weeks i observe sparks of political scepticism (or critique, to use the historical name) about the larger context of this legal and legislative battle. not the focus, and rightly so, but it makes me wonder what more this community has to say, and do, in that direction.
today, generals major and minor are stepping forth to topple the arrogant and inept marshall rummel-field, just as three years ago, spies and analysts at several pay grades tried to cut the stovepipe of disinformation blowing back to w.h.i.g. and their rovian rollodex. no one can doubt the sincerity of a ray mcgovern or a jack murtha — figures who fortunately still exist within a state apparatus not yet fully nazified. in britain dr. david kelley lost his life in resisting the lies of lord blair. fitzgerald, esquire is another great truthteller. but, thinking back a generation or two, notice that that the same “team b”-like elements of watergate and iran contra were able to regroup and relaunch the cheney coup, on behalf of the same great interests of military industrialism who define modern politics, on one side.
a few months ago jane wrote, “In the blogosphere, our niche is smackdown framing to push news narratives, pushback the compromised media, pushback and pressure within the Dem party, and of course, legal analysis.” (www.haloscan.com/comments/firedoglake/114030184004005794/#269096)
my question is what happens when the present (i.e. iraqgate) pushback does eventually push back? it’ll be a victory for all who pushed, and will surely preempt worse crimes by the current cabal, but that was also true in 1974 and 1986, when the pundits crowed, “the system worked!”. we know better, but there’s a dialectical truism that coalitions de-coalesce when tactics shift. some heavy duty insiders have been sourcing the damning hersh and waas reports, and we make common cause with them in pursuing today’s perps in court, and in developing new media to displace the propaganda apparatus. over on the orange page the horizon is clear, to rebuild a party of the centerleft, well and good. and here?
if i have to answer (just to move the conversation forward), i’d say that the fire by this lake throws cultural alienation into relief, in a particular sense of “culture”: how the u.s. elite manage to talk like rednecks so as to play a stack of cultural “cards” whereby to rule the “others” through a political discourse of calculated stupidity. i’m no historian but this was not invented by lee atwater. bushism in this respect is the apogee, not just of reagan’s fables and nixon’s mythical “majority” of hardhats and crackers, but of a broader discourse of exclusion which is not invincible in all places at all times, but which has been steadily hegemonic in the u.s. since the industrial age, fueled by slavery and genocide (see howard zinn).
overall the idea seems to be that that the empire can’t run without an intelligentsia, and they’re/we’re bailing out. about a year ago, jane discussed this directly from her vantage in the film industry, and it animates the collective wisdom here of the cheneyfests and other late-nite research. cultural resistance by the reality-based: i love it, and let’s rumble but not only in the sense of the 1998 song by the great colombian band bloque (”nosotros de rumba y el mundo se derrumba”). the colombian tragedy shows how, in an intentionally class-polarized setting, the corporatists don’t lack for fresh recruits. it’s a behaviorist dynamic: if fascism is making a comeback it’s because the whole world now resembles central europe of the 1920’s.
Wilson spoke about the report before Libby did. Is Wilson in legal jeopardy as well?
Wilson didn’t say the report wasn’t secret, he said there was “nothing secret or earth-shattering” in it. I take this to mean that there were no significant secrets in the report, i.e. nothing that wasn’t already known to those in a position to know (e.g., George Tenet). Surely, this doesn’t imply that the report wasn’t classified.
wm
But if it was classified when Libby spoke of it, it was classified when Wilson spoke of it prior to the time that Libby spoke of it to Judy Miller.
Aww sad,
why so glum, chum?
Is it ’cause ol’ scooter lied like a bastard and he’s gonna get nailed?
Cheer up, will ya?
Troll who also goes by the name “I”
Sad,
I was replying to Cecil Turner’s point above, not to yours. Sorry for the confusion. I’m not in a position to reply to your question, because I don’t know exactly what Joe Wilson said when he spoke about the report.
Don’t let the traitor wingnuts get to ya. Kinda hard for them now that everyone sees what Bush is.
A little clarification for Cecil Turner, and anyone else who might be confused:
There was nothing secret or earth-shattering in my report, just as there was nothing secret about my trip.
Joe Wilson’s trip was not secret.
What Wilson told the CIA is not secret.
How the CIA documented and assessed the trip — information that presumably is in the trip report — is secret.
The CIA’s input on the document is what makes it classified. Understand now?
Cecil – July 8 comes before July 11, no? Tenet releases information on July 11 that Libby tells Miller on July 8. The fact that Tenet releases it on July 11 doesn’t mean that it was declassified on July 8.
How the CIA documented and assessed the trip — information that presumably is in the trip report — is secret.
Okay, except the reported information has nothing to do with the CIA’s assessment, and specifies Wilson’s reporting:
So now we’ve gone from “Secret ≠ classified” to “CIA assessment,” neither of which really works, and yet I’m the one who’s “confused,” or has a “comprehension problem”?
Tenet releases information on July 11 that Libby tells Miller on July 8. The fact that Tenet releases it on July 11 doesn’t mean that it was declassified on July 8.
Jeff comes to the rescue with an actual cogent point! And though Tenet’s release does place an upward bound of when the information might be classified (no later than July 11th), it does not speak to whether it was declassified earlier (or had ever been classified). Of course, Tenet’s release on the 11th does mean that the “still classified” characterization supplied by Wilson can’t apply to the information described in Fitz’s response.
Further, if you want to split hairs, Fitz never claims any classified information was revealed, just that the report was discussed. Wilson splits the same hair in a different direction, and all could be correct (if the information had never been classified). Similarly, Murray’s piece doesn’t actually say Libby leaked classified portions of the report at Cheney’s behest, merely portions. (And since an order from Cheney to release it would effectively declassify it, it’s hard to see how any of that makes a lot of sense, anyway.)
Similarly, Murray’s piece doesn’t actually say Libby leaked classified portions of the report at Cheney’s behest, merely portions.
That’s right – and remember we are dealing with what Libby testified to, at least probably. So it is more likely that Libby testified that Cheney told him to leak only the already declassified parts on July 12 (and in fact both the Times and the Post reports from October, at least one of them clearly sourced to Team Libby, support that idea). I take it the ultimate gist of Waas’ piece is to sharpen the question of Cheney’s role, and in particular make more explicit the question of how likely it was that Cheney did not instruct Libby on discussing Wilson’s wife on July 12, when he appears to have given Libby a bunch of other directions on media strategy.
This is all made more complicated by the fact that it seems from Fitzgerald’s filing — and this is all caveated, as we know Fitzgerald has had some problems with this filing — that Libby did not acknowledge that he revealed info from the CIA trip report to Miller on July 8.
As for July 8, I think you can discern from Fitzgerald’s filing that as of July 8, the CIA report, like the NIE, had not yet been officially declassified, and I also think the other declassification – via the President’s authorization – appears to have had to do with the NIE. I don’t have a lot of confidence in those judgments, so offer them tentatively. But the point is that from Fitzgerald’s filing, it appears that if Libby disclosed info from the CIA trip report to Miller on July 8, as Miller testified, that info was classified at the time.
But the point is that from Fitzgerald’s filing, it appears that if Libby disclosed info from the CIA trip report to Miller on July 8, as Miller testified, that info was classified at the time.
With minor exceptions (e.g., if the final classification arbiter says something is declassified, it is the most official declassification possible; and the same applies to any instructions from the VP after March), no argument. Cheers.
The truth, when you really look at it, is easily recognizable for its simplicity; and the motives are usually clear, as they are here.
Now, how blatantly will the media and those who stand to gain by maintaining the status quo manage to ignore the simple and base truth of the matter?
That is the question that, we all must answer and get about remedying whatever we find at the end of serious investigation and public disclosure.
I have hope. This writer also shows us how eloquently the truth may be stated.
Excellent expose.
Thanks for all the comments and info on Palme’s blown CIA cover. However, this blog, as well as others, has yet explain why Fitz is not going after Novak whose column exposed Plame as an undercover CIA agent. Can anyone explain why this investigation does not DIRECTLY involve Novack?
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