
Team Libby filed a Reply Memorandum in Support of Libby’s Third Motion to Compel late last night – in response to Fitz’s Response Brief (covered here, here and here, among other entries). Jeralyn (who is a goddess!) sent me a copy of the filing and exhibits, and I’m doing a read through this morning (while watching a DVD about Disney World with my daughter) — am planning to have a more thorough bit of analysis later in the day on this latest filing salvo from Team Libby.
In the meantime, Jeralyn has posted her thoughts on the filing on TalkLeft, and they are a wonderful synopsis of this whole memorandum and well worth a read. Jeralyn has also thoughtfully posted the entire filing in PDF format at TalkLeft, so you can read the whole of the Reply Memorandum as well, if you are interested. (And for another perspective, Tom Maguire has his read up as well at JustOneMinute, as well as posting the PDF of the filing.)
The initial news reports on the filing have hit the wires. David Johnston at the NYTimes has a read. The AP also weighs in here. And the WaPo’s take by R. Jeffrey Smith adds some more bits and pieces.
A common theme among the articles is this, from Libby’s filing (via the WaPo):
But the lawyers asserted that White House documents outlining what Libby was to say in conversations with reporters did not mention Plame’s name. They said this supports Libby’s contention that he did not participate in a campaign to damage Wilson by disclosing Plame’s CIA employment or in a coverup of the episode.
The statement that Libby did not link Bush and Cheney to the disclosure of Plame’s name during his 2004 grand jury testimony is meant to bolster Libby’s contention that no conspiracy existed to make selective disclosures to undermine a key administration critic, as some in Washington have charged.
But there is much more in this particular filing — some of which is guaranteed to raise some serious hackles in the halls of the Bush White House this morning — so it is worth a thorough read and some serious contemplation on all of the backhanded little bits. (Oh yeah, this is a read this morning…)
So, the back and forth continues — as it always does in this discovery period prior to trial. I have gotten a lot of questions from readers about how typical this back and forth really is — and the answer is, it’s pretty typical, if not somewhat more voluminous than the average case just based on the stakes involved in this case and the classified issues involved which require an extra layer or two of argument.
Although, to be honest, it’s nice to be standing on the outside of this fight, instead of being stuck in the middle of it. It’s exhausting to be in the middle of this back and forth, day in and day out — especially when you consider how understaffed most prosecutor’s offices are around the country. Let alone how difficult it can be to have a solo practice or a small firm practice as a criminal defense attorney when you are dealing with the mounds of paperwork and evidence a criminal prosecution generates. I’ve been on both sides of that, and both are equally exhausting for much the same reasons — just different perspectives — and the legal beagles out there can second this if they’ve been through those 16-hour-prep trial days for weeks on end.
The difference that I see in this case compared to the average criminal defense practice that I saw in my career is the amount of money that Libby has at his disposal to continue to paper the prosecution with motions and other filings — which, considering the hourly rates of his legal team, appears to be a hefty chunk of cash in his legal defense trust. Routine criminal cases simply don’t suck up this much air — but the more at stake in the charges for the client and for the government, the higher the level of work involved. (As an example, you don’t see this enormous flurry of motions in a misdemeanor domestic battery case, but you sure do see this sort of effort for a murder case.)
Does this happen in every case? No. But it does happen in a lot of them — especially where the defendant contests the charges and has counsel who is willing to vigorously protect his or her rights. Honestly, this is the way the system is set up to work — each side consistently testing the other, over and over, to weed out the less-substantiated charges and the weaker arguments.
One of the odd aspects of this particular case is the amount of media coverage of the intricate little details — because the implications of this prosecution reach to the highest levels of the current Bush Administration and out into the public sale of the Iraq War and pushback on Administration critics and so many other politically charged issues — there is naturally a lot more scrutiny of this than there would be of any local, every day criminal prosecution.
As a result, something as routine as a correction filing from Fitz on the wording on his last Response has caused a huge stir — because the tiniest of details is scrutinized so carefully in the media and on the blogs.
The prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, formally filed a one paragraph corrective letter on Wednesday to Judge Reggie B. Walton of Federal District Court, changing a sentence in the earlier filing. The passage had said Mr. Libby had been authorized to disclose to a reporter a "key judgment" from the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate that said Iraq was vigorously trying to obtain uranium.
Mr. Fitzgerald’s amended version changed the wording so that the passage would say that Mr. Libby was authorized to disclose "some of the key judgments of the N.I.E., and that the N.I.E. stated that Iraq was vigorously trying to procure uranium."
The distinction between the two versions is that the second accurately stated that the finding about Iraq’s efforts to obtain uranium was in the report, but was not among its "key judgments," a term used in intelligence reporting to indicate that a stated conclusion represents the consensus of intelligence agencies….
Mr. Fitzgerald’s letter did not seek changes in his assertion in the earlier filing that Mr. Libby had testified to a grand jury that Mr. Cheney had told him in 2003 that he was authorized by President Bush to release selected parts of the intelligence report to a reporter.
Now, to those of us who have been obsessed with this case since the investigation began, this has some meaning. But I can guarantee you that if you tried to explain the significance of this to someone who hasn’t paid attention to the case, you are simply going to get some eyes glazing over and a "huh?" (I know, I’ve tried, even with legal beagles — unless they are political junkies, they don’t seem to see a huge difference.)
But there is a difference in terms of the significance in the NIE — the key judgments have a higher level of importance than the rest of the document. I think the explanation on this from Eriposte at LeftCoaster lays out the details on this best — so please take a read. The bottom line for me — the political implications are essentially the same for the Administration in terms of public opinion, its a difference of degree of importance placed on the particular piece of evidence, but nothing is changed with regard to the selective declassification and cherry-picking of only those bits which supported the Administration’s position, the secretive leaking to the friendly Judy Miller, and the keeping of critical pieces of information behind a classified wall until 10+ days later.
It’s the weird, secretive behavior and the half-truth revelations that remain the problem for the Bush Administration – where the information fell as a key judgment or not is a distinction that is lost, I think, on the bulk of the public. But I could be wrong on this — time will tell. (And I’m sure folks on the other side of the political fence would vehemently disagree with me on this.)
In any case, that’s a bit to think about — and I’ll try and have analysis up as quickly as I can manage it this morning. Now for some more coffee and a bit of legal reading.
Related posts:
- BREAKING: Stunning al-Haramain Filing Shames Obama; Shows Duplicity of Officials
- New White House Counsel Bob Bauer and Scooter Libby Justice
- The Bush Fairy Tale on the Libby Pardon
- John Dean: Is Boies/Olson’s Federal Anti-Prop 8 Filing A Risk?
- Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, and the “Unremarkable” Meat Grinder





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Fitz?
fitz?
Oops, a little late…
Yes, FITZ!!!!
Bless his heart and his mind.
And Redd and Jane, from an obsessive ‘reads but doesn’t really comment’ type, let me just thank you both for your work on this-
oh goodie. some lunchtime reading. yum.
We went to Disney World in Nov. Satyed at the Animal Kingdom Lodge, had the magic express pick us up we didn’t touch our bags and they were delivered to our room. The lobby is fantastic and depending what room you have, the view of the Animals is awesome. No more than a couple hundred feet from the rear door of the lobby are the animals, actually a better view than at the Animal kingdom itself. Ask for a room map before you book, it will have a layout of where the rooms are in relation to the Animals or the pool, which is heated , giant and has a tiki hut bar right at the edge. Best service you will ever have. Free Bus rides to any park , so no driving. With park hopper passes, airfare for 4 and one room for 4 nights total was under $4k. The chef at restaurant personally made lactose free waffles for our kid every morning. The parks were fun too but I could have stayed at the lodge the whole time. Don’t miss it.
Glen Greenwald has a really scary post up this morning.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/
One more thing, we didn’t use the meal plans, didn’t fit our schedule, but reservations can be made 90 days, maybe even 180 days out so if you want character dining book it early, try some of the less popular places in Epcot, like Denmark, they have character dining and people don’t think of eating Danish food. So book the reataurants EARLY. Also check for the Princess celebration at the Magic Kingdom castle a must for a little girl, ours even new fireworks were supposed to follow. Priceless.
the Fly-man: Are you lost?
:-)
Redd,
Thanks very much! There seems to be another difference between this case and “regular” conspiracy to out a CIA agent and perjury cases :~).
I am very surprised at how much the defense is arguing about facts in its filings. In the discovery peiod, it is noprmal to have a decent amount of give and take, but not at such a detailed level of fact dispute. For example, one might argue about whether a document produced by the government is relevant to the defense, but rarely wuld a good defense attorney spell out in detail why factually it was relevant. I know I have given up some defense ideas and arguments to get additional documents from the government, but never like this. And I don’t think it has to do solely with the amount of money Irving has to play with.
It seems to me that the Irving defense team is purposefully arguing out the facts and getting it into the media, rather than the other way around (which is what you suggest). By that I mean, the media is reporting these details (which you rightly describe as unintellible to the uninitiated) because team Libby has sufficient access to get them to do it. I am beginning to think that Libby’s defense is entirely out of court and that his filings are playing to that jury, not the judge in federal court or the unltimate jury of his peers I hope he someday faces. Taken in this light, I see two external defense strategies:
1) Freak out the White House to get the pressure on for a pardon. After reading the recent revelations? that Scooter is really disliked by all and had no natural constituency in the White House (outside of Dick, perhaps, but that seemed more fuctional than close loyalty based) it would be one of my goals to send strong messages that my client should not be forgotten. Nor should he be presumed to be a total team player at this point unledss the team takes one for him.
2) The publicity is having just the effect you describe: if you tried to explain the significance of this to someone who hasn’t paid attention to the case, you are simply going to get some eyes glazing over and a “huh?” This “HUH?” effect is very useful to Libby. Most people have stopped talking about his lies and obvious perjury before the grand jury and are now in a confused muddle about whether he did or did not leak Plames name and if he did whether that was authorized and if it was authorized, by whom….
This is the place Irving Libby would like best to be.
PS, Do you now prefer “Christy” or is “Redd” still OK?
Redd,
You taking Fi to see the Mouse?
We took a 3 yr. old and a 6 mo. old in September and can share some “best practices” for DW with toddlers.
Oh, yeah. Can’t wait to read your deconstruction of the Libby filing later on today.
And, have ya’ll noticed that a lot of your stuff is making it onto the Air America airwaves? Bravo, but I haven’t heard much of an attribution to the blogs.
Keep fighting the good fight.
T-
fly-man-
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
OT
“…He who controls the past, controls the future.‖George Orwell
~
Freeper Madness
Good god how much more racist can you get?
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo…..4352/posts
Hello, I just happened to have read Christy’s WHOLE article, including the part about her watching a DVD about Disney World. Sorry to clog up the space with my ramblings , just trying to help her out with what I infered to be a future trip for her and her daughter.
Christy, “implcations” misspelled.
from Think Progress:
Field & Stream magazine op-ed says Bush policies are bad for hunters and anglers. “With deep ties to the oil and gas industry, Bush and Cheney have unleashed a national energy plan that has begun to destroy hunting and fishing on millions of federal acres throughout the West, setting back effective wildlife management for decades to come.â€
If this could get out into MSM, Bush’s poll numbers would go into the 20’s.
Here is some meat for you all. Enjoy; http://www.uchicagolaw.typepad…..al_de.html
the Fly-man:
No offense or exclusion intended, hence the “:-)” at the end of my comment. Come on in, sit a spell, enjoy the ride.
cathy, my wife’s grandfather gets field and stream — it is a careful and conservative (in the true sense of the word) magazine — just like Walter (the grandfather). If F&S is writing articles like that, Bush is T-t-t-toast.
Quick thoughts from a skimming reader, political junkie, not a lawyer:
1. Despite “innocent until proven guilty,” such is the media emphasis in our society that for many, if not all, Scooter will ever after be seen as the guy who lied and who outed a CIA agent.
2. Seems to me that Fitz may not need to bring charges against Dead Eye or Dim Son, as Team Libby seems to be doing it for him. These filings, given their intense coverage, are bringing this issue into the public consciousness in a way that no amount of legal wonkery ever could.
Fly-man, don’t sweat it. I learned something new from your comment on DW. Mostly I learned that I’d rather be in the Everglades but when I get a grandchild in a few years my perspective will undoubtedly change.
Damn you all! So much meat this morning — first GavinM, then all the links in Redd’s post such as Glenn Greenwald, and I’m supposed to be preparing my semester-review on Separation of Powers for this morning’s Con Law class. Damn! Well, back into my class prep — unconstitutional domestic spying, unconstitutional unilateral actions to launch preemptive wars, manipulation of legislation through signing statements that are effectively unconstitutional line-item vetoes . . . . When I studied Con Law “back in the day,” it wasn’t nearly this topical.
‘Course, when I studied it we hadn’t yet had our first GOP President tearing up the Constitution. Now that we’re in the belly of the beast of the second one, how can students be taught Con law without this topicality?
Anybody watch Karl Roves’s Houston speech on CSPAN yesterday? I had never seen him give a speech. The content of course was typical – trickle down economics, NCLB works great, big biz needs bigger tax breaks, WOT – head of A Q is in Iraq (reaffirm bogus Iraq/AQ connection) Bush is a strong leader, doesn’t care about polls, NYtimes, wash post, or short term goals – big thinker, like Lincoln, amazing man, keeps his cool, great man.
What struck me were Rove’s hand gestures, vocal inflection, stress words. One can see in Chimpy, Rove’s coaching. Rove is truly the puppetmaster.
Fly-man, that’s not meat over at the University of Chicago Law School’s Faculty Blog.
That’s Sunstein, which is something other than meat — more like cardboard. Sunstein has been a notorious supporter of Bush on various matters. Here he tries to categorize the various possible motives for the President leaking or declassifying material, and in the process lists this as one of the possible categories but immediately rejects it:
(4) a declassification decision that discloses the name of a CIA agent (almost always a subset of 3), and to say the least, not fine — again, not alleged thus far with respect to the President or Vice President
Disclosing the name of a CIA agent isn’t alleged with respect to the President or Vice President? Give me a break.
How about encouraging your subordinates to disclose the identity of a CIA agent? If, as reformulated, Sunstein thinks that hasn’t been alleged, he must be reading only comments on his own blog, not those out in the real world.
I wonder if the people paying the lawyers with contributions to the legal fund,don’t just want access to all information.
Everyone in the White House must be waiting for the next shoe to drop.Maybe they want a preview of what could be on the way.
One commenter on Sunstein’s post at the U of Chicago makes it simple to understand Sunstein:
Kimball, your description of the “lawless” release of classified information doesn’t square with Professor Sunstein’s assessment that the President’s conduct is quite legal.
http://www.uchicagolaw.typepad…..al_de.html
fitz the suspense thriller version: megaton indictments in their silos, ready to launch…
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/special.html
(redd can write the footnotes for the film study guide)
Christy, you are right. Jeralyn is a Living Goddess.
News alert from CNN’s Web site: U.S. Supreme Court building evacuated because of reports of smoke in the building.
OT
Re: The Trailer Trash story. Snotty pushed yesterday that the president wasn’t off base, because the process had to work before he knew for sure that the trailers were for balloons. That may have got him out of that briefing, but that’s all it did. They went on for months pushing the trailer story, and that is gonna bite em’ in the ass big time. Olbermann had some clips last night. This story is gonna burn them bad.
An example from Josh:
And how late were administration figures pushing the mobile bio-labs story?
Here’s what Vice President Cheney said to Juan Williams on January 24th 2004 …
In terms of the question what is there now, we know for example that prior to our going in that he had spent time and effort acquiring mobile biological weapons labs, and we’re quite confident he did, in fact, have such a program. We’ve found a couple of semi trailers at this point which we believe were, in fact, part of that program. Now it’s not clear at this stage whether or not he used any of that to produce or whether he was simply getting ready for the next war. That, in my mind, is a serious danger in the hands of a man like Saddam Hussein, and I would deem that conclusive evidence, if you will, that he did, in fact, have programs for weapons of mass destruction.
Cheney’s persistence in lying to the public about al Qaida and WMD claims is almost the stuff of legend. So even though the baldness of this lie still sort of grabs me, I can’t say it’s exactly shocking.
But again, Congress. For how many months did the White House continue to tell the Congress that the mobile bio-weapons story was true even while they knew it was false? For months? Or was it more like a year?
– Josh Marshall
Good Morning Everyone,
Thanks Christy.
Before I even start with the filings and links
(and I’m so torqued up over Iran, I’m not sure I can even read Glenn)
The Field and Stream item reminded me to share something I saw last night.
David Gergen was being asked (CNN?)to comment on impact of Plame/Weapons Labs revelations.
“I think they are in a deep, deep, deep hole from which they are unlikely to recover”
Like him or not, those familiar with Gergen know he opines in a restrained, measured way, so this rather stark assessment portends a major shift
OT: Those of you for whom a daily trip to Dependable Renegade is not standard, shame on you…
Go! http://derenegade.blogspot.com/
Cathy #18
“If this could get out into MSM, Bush’s poll numbers would go into the 20’s.”
The Good News is: Field & Stream is MSM.
I am no lawyer but it seems to me that part of the game is for Fitz to show enough of his hand that there’s no feasible way that Bush can pardon Libby while also showing that a conviction on the perjury and lying charges is inevitable. And Libby, of course, wants to signal the Administration that he’s not prepared to go to jail alone, though he’s prepared to continue to be a good soldier as long as possible. That’s in addition to all of the obfuscating of facts and memories and issues directed at the public and potential juries, of course. I don’t play chess, either, unfortunately, but I am a fascinated observer.
“the weird, secretive behavior and the half-truth revelations that remain the problem for the Bush Administration”
That is the bottom line, and one which no amount of spin from the noise machine can obscure. Bush sez he is a CEO president. Know what a real CEO does when things have gone awry on his watch? He brings in his top people and demands answers. Now. He doesn’t waste his time hiring an outside PI to find out for him. Most normal people understand this.
not being a lawyer, i have nothing substantive to say except once again, thank you FDL wimmins. you always set the mark on this story.
perhaps area people could bring fitz’s office some coffee and sandwiches, and a thank you bouquet? i’d chip in, if there were a movement to do so. given what you say about how hard they’re working perhaps they’d accept.
(i’ll keep my ideas about what to do for libby’s lawyers to myself ;-)
OT: if you’re a regular blog reader this will have you in tears. the blog itself isn’t for me, but this one post is just to die for.
timewarp, I’m afraid you give “real” CEO’s a bit too much credit.
In #31, Gyro quotes Josh quoting Cheney, with the “conclusive evidence, if you will”. In Cheney parlance, “if you will” is the tip-off. That means that he is lying. Another good tip is “in fact”. Granted, his lips moving is a strong indicator that there are lies emanating from his mouth, but an “if you will”, or an “in fact” can help you to pinpoint them.
On the Libby/Fitz Filings. I haven’t read everything yet but it is important to notice the emphatic discussion of “Plame’s name” in the WaPo article this morning. Remember that it is entirely possible to identify Ms. Plame without the use of her “name”. This cute parsing was already performed with considerable aplomb by Karl Rove: “I didn’t know her name. I didn’t leak her name.” Whenever you hear the word “name” in the discussion of the Plame affair, your ears should prick up and you should realize that someone is about to try and play you. Never forget that you have to parse every word that comes out of the administration very carefully. They don’t think you are smart enough to do it, and they are right that not everybody is, but unless you make a serious attempt, there is not even a reasonable discussion going on.
On earlier threads discussion of marches/demonstrations vs. local actions and communications with Senators, etc. I say YES! Of course we should make our voices heard in the offices of our representatives. fncl.org (Friends) has mechanisms for writing your Senators, as do many others. However, we cannot stop there if that does not achieve the desired affect. The Iraq war cannot be expanded into neighboring countries. The anti-war movement made some progress last summer at Camp Casey and made more last September 24 with over 100,000 people in DC (without much help from the blogosphere). It is true that the media does not cover much if Cindy Sheehan doesn’t show up and if there is no violence, but there is a critical mass at which point the movement will snowball. If there was a draft, it would be a different story, as we all know.
The surest route to defeat is defeatism, which is what I hear in Pach’s “They don’t show up!” lament.
There were plenty of people opining on civil rights before Mother Parks sat down on the bus. Kos and Jane need to know that if the American People can stop the war, there will be plenty of credit and joy to go around. I’ll take seconds on the joy.
peace,
jim
Prof. thanks for the analysis of my post. This will help me remember the next time the right makes an overly broad statement about how Liberal Law schools are. I’m certainly not a lawyer, nor play one on television and am always trying to understand as much as I can. Thus why I read this and Glenn Greenwald’s blog. Thanks for disecting Sunstein. Always. The Fly-Man.
Redd,
As one who always reads your take on the Plame matter, it seems that you’ve started to hedge your bet slightly.
One question…. Given what you know at this moment, if you were the lead attorney for one side, which side would you feel more confident arguing?
OT – If you do go to Disney World, arrange in advance a private guided tour (usually about $75 per hour) for your time in the park. You will see and do more in a day than the masses will enjoy in a week.
OT Laugh time.
Go to Google, type in “failure” and hit “I’m feeling lucky.”
Sorry if this has already been covered.
immanentize #11
your point #2 – muddled public perceptions
don’t know if you are old enough to have been a Watergate junkie but if not, there was a point like this before the Senate hearings – an awful lot of alleged wrongdoings by so many were out there with no coherent narrative (Sirica, Ellsberg, Muskie, bagmen, ad nauseum)
and most folks only had their hometown newspaper and 30 min. of nat’l news every night with which to keep up which frustrated the hell out of me
but somehow the by then daily cascade of stories had a cumulative effect and people were starting to follow the thread – I’ll never forget standing in a bakery waiting my turn and the two little old ladies in front of me debating
Segretti vs. Macgruder on a particular bag job – that was the moment I realized it was all over
which is just a long way of saying I believe any attempt to confuse or muddle the story will eventually fail and like a good jury, The People will be able to follow Fitz.
can’t wait for the day when I hit the Wag-A-Bag and Sharon reminds Jo Ethyl that ‘that was an Ex Parte filing’ mwaaah!
Apple Canyon 2:
Also works with “miserable failure”
:-)
Just want to say to the whole fdl crowd, Thanks for all your dedicated, honest, trailblazing work. It’s amazing how a person can get interested in the minutiae of legal work.
ot- Is it possible to volunteer one’s time to help defence lawyers, innocent projects, etc. I don’t have legal training but have college degree and a logical mind. (Majored in math) Where do I start, who do I ask? Thanks. btw- I live in Knoxville, TN.
More to slog through. Libby’s filings aren’t nearly as much fun as Fitz’s.
Redd,
Gave a very quick skim and this all off the cuff, but did you notice how much they contracted their discovery demand? In the “compromise” section of the brief, they basically gut their original demand.
Later on they argue that they are really entitled to the whole of their original demand, but any judges chambers is going to seize on an admission or waiver like that and run with it. Any judge with half a brain avoids making a decision when the parties don’t force it. So, if one side concedes something, you grab it and go (unless they don’t have the standing to concede or some other anomaly).
Also, I am struck by how much they seem to be threatening both the WH and the proposed prosecution witnesses. There appears to be a lot of pressure being exerted by Team Irving for …. a pardon? …. supporting, ah hem, perjured testimony?
They also appear quite concerned that the additional factual allegations in Fitz’s filing will cause the judge to reverse the earlier ruling that the prosecution and the OVP are “aligned” for the purposes of this prosecution. They are correct though, that the better practice would have been for Fitz to make a motion to reconsider the earlier ruling which would have created an interlocutory appellate trail. I think, maybe, our hero buried his plea in the oppo papers so that the court could make a sui sponte reconsideration and reversal based on the new revelations. This makes for a more difficult appellate standard in the “law of the case”.
But are the new relevations new? Remember all the sealed and ex parte filings Fitz put in earlier in the case? How much of this new info was in there? Did the judge’s last decision, with it’s suggestion that Fitz avoid things that need a seal perhaps signal a tacit consent on the court’s part to see the prosecution play a bit more to the court of public opinion?
Usually courts HATE it when the prosecution tries its case in the press, but if PJF was playing so far w/in the rules AND the defense was a) spinning unfairly (like the bovine produced fertilizer that when on pre-conviction in the Lynn Stewart case) and b) then had the temerity to COMPLAIN about the sealed filings, maybe the court thought it was time to untie one of the hands behind the prosecution’s back.
Last, I love the irony of a defense that has been winging and whining for months about the horrible cruel prosecution who files everything under seal so the American people don’t know what’s REALLY happening in this case, just filed an accompanying affidavit by Ted Wells, ….you guessed it, under seal. I really do love irony.
I take vigorous, personal exception to the charge of defeatism.
If I were defeatist I would not be organizing people and providing them platforms through which to take action. Who around here is pushing people to get off the computer and out to where they can make a difference by meeting other people?
I’m not defeatist about marches. If you show me a plan that can get millions of people together in a way that will garner media coverage, I’m all for it.
Empiricism is not defeatism. In fact, I would call it defeatism to apply tactics that have proven not to work for us. They waste energy, resources and time. Lots of people turned out to protest Iraq, but they had no effect. Cindy Sheehan had some effect with far fewer numbers, because she was different, and she did not go to DC. Local media pay more attention than DC political media.
Empiricism: I have had growing response to my calls to join state based groups, but nothing overwhelming. People tell me about the number of visits we get. If we get 90,000 visits a day, and I get maybe ten emails a day, who here is a math major? What’s our hit rate for getting people to get together and organize? You think we can write some front page post and milloins appear? You’re in Don Rumsfeld fantasy land.
Spare me the lectures about why we should organize marches. Flame away.
Dr. Bong, #44
I like your “miserable failure” better. Thanks.
Has anyone read the comments section over at Tom McGuire’s blog? It’s interesting to get the right wing legalese version of the same stuff.
Before I read on, I love the juxtaposition of Disney World and Scooter.
jim preston,
Thanks for chiming in on the demonstrations v. local action debate from last night. I agree that the idea that the notion that “They Won’t Show Up” is discarding a very necessary part of the process in taking back our country. There is surely more than one way to skin a cat, but the majority of our elected representatives are compromised beyound redemption and it’s time for a revolution.
If the reality-based community is truly ready to stand up and be counted, as our nitwitted misleader likes to say: “All options should be on the table”. We must do EVERYTHING in our power to stop bombs from dropping on Iran and I believe that letters, faxes, local visits to representatives and rational debate haven’t changed the course here. Things are moving at a rapid pace and the warmongers are on offense. Time to stand up.
Stephen Parrish said “News alert from CNN’s Web site: U.S. Supreme Court building evacuated because of reports of smoke in the building”
Hope they take the stamps with them!!
Mpower at#45
Call your local Bar Association. Call the ACLU. Call the NAACP. There are “innocence projects” in most states, I am not a Google monkey, but maybe you are better at web research than I.
Also, many law schools have clinical programs, they may be able to use a volunteer. The one thing all of these places have in common is that they do not have enough supoort/fact research staff. So, if you are a good computer researcher, a good fact checke, a good proofreader (the great goddess knows I am a constant example of why those are needed), if you are good at desktop pulishing, they need you, though they may not know it yet.
Lastly, many of the US Attorney’s Offices have street level gun/gang interdiction programs funded with federal “Safe Streets” money. The one Fitz set up in Chicago is a marvel. Just the best thing I’ve seen in the genre. That model involves community volunteers working with paroled gang members to help them avoid re offending.
Some where on the internet (try searching PAtrick Fitzgerald, gangs, “safe streets”, you may find it, I’m sorry I don’t reccall how the document came to me- I think some emailed it to me couple years ago, I don’t know what I did with it) there is a written versio of his testimony about the Chicago program. It will help you get the idea.
Pach – I haven’t re-mailed you, but I did send one your way a few days ago about participation in a local Roots Project. Oregon wasn’t on the last list a saw you post about current functioning groups, so maybe there was nothing to email me back. Just wondering, and still interested. pachacutec01 at gmail dot com ?
Fly-man — thanks for the Sunstein, even if many of us won’t agree with the substance of Sunstein’s argument. It helps us get our game on. To counter-frame Sunstein, what intent does Bush’s declassification through leaking express, versus overt and normal classification processes? Why would anyone, President or otherwise, promote the truth through a leak rather than actively and openly market the truth? That’s one of the major stumblings in Sunstein’s thought process; whistleblowers leak – persons of authority market.
mkultramaroon (14) — no surprise there, unfortunately, after the Bush regime forced the ouster and replacement of the National Archivist. I didn’t check the dates in the linked article, but dollars-to-donuts the unprecedented changes came immediately after the change in archivists. We have SO much damage to undo once 2006 elections are done…
Stephen (30) — there’s going to be a LOT of that crap now, what with POTUS reaching the bottom floor of his JAR soon. Wasn’t there news yesterday of a new a-Q tape released?
Muzzy, I still don’t have an OR group, but as far as I know, I rsponded to everyone. Some folks who did not put their state and only their state in the subject line may have been lost in the other inbox mess, and I wrote about that somewhere.
I will do a search of my inbox by “Oregon”, but if you want to email me again, that would be great. Sorry for any confusion. I have replied to everyone that I caught.
Field & Stream’s circulation around 10 million per Wikipedia. The sportsmen’s vote might be fertile ground for the Dems. My perception is that hunters generally divide into those who are more outdoorsmen and those who are gun enthusiasts. The outdoorsman-type will of course be more swayed by the editorial in F&S and is less likely to be in lockstep with NRA propaganda. Cheney’s sloppy hunting practices have also resonated with this group (who I think greatly outweighs the gun enthusiasts).
While the demographic isn’t huge, authentically addressing their concerns would allow us to make penetration in the older white male demo– concentrated in many swing states.
fitz-o-rama
Pach,
What you’re doing is vital and important, no doubt about it. In a sane world, in the days when I felt confident calling this country a democracy, it would epitomize grass roots action. I know your no defeatist, on ther contrary you’re making a difference and I think that’s saying something in our current political climate.
I wouldn’t expect a front-page post to catalyze the lefty blogosphere, but a serious attempt to organize a significant one-time event is within our grasp.
I hate to revisit this after last night, but I refuse to give up the idea that it can happen.
Peace!
Interestingly enough, my reading of the response brief has me persuaded that team Libby has a right to a majority of the documents that they requested; especially in light of the fact that they have now narrowed their request to documents in the possession of the Office of the Special Counsel, rather than a full fledged fishing expedition through the files of the CIA, Department of State and Office of the White House.
The problem is that the OSC made the original indictment so expansive factually, that it gave the defense a lot of leeway to object to the facts contained in it. I do think that OSC and team Libby are playing more to the media now than to the court, and it’s my fervent hope that the court will acknowledge this and reign both of them in.
Jeralyn’s posting on Talkleft makes most of the salient points with regard to what I’m talking about.
People have been bending over backwards to give Clusterfuck the benefit of every doubt for years.
“He’s a good man- but—the dems are attacking him- sometimes he doesn’t pay enough attention- Some on his staff are failing him- the intelligence was bad”–etc. etc. etc.
This can only go on for so long- pretty soon people are thinking “wait a minute- there are just too damned many of these unfortunate instances–this guy’s lying”
At that point- everything changes- he goes from getting the benefit of the doubt to having to prove his own innocence with every new allegation. At that point- slick little rhetorical devices all will fail- people will believe the worst- not the best.
Clusterfuck is now in the crapper- but he is using the bullshit that worked while he still had the benefit of the doubt. It’s a disaster strategy. He won’t face the truth.
By the way, apologies to Redd for pulling this off topic.
Pah – I caught your request about the state only in the subject line before I emailed. I’ll gladly re-email. Thanks for the reply.
Pach
Re: who is the math major?
Do not be discouraged bythe ratio of FDL hits to emails answering your requests for help. I am sure that many of us act on your excellent advice directly, w/o sending you an email.
Perhaps b/c of not wanting “out” ourselves more than we have. Perhaps b/c we already know who to contact and what to do.
Do not be disheartened oh inspiring one!
Do not underestimate the cumulative effect you are having.
This is not an Andy Hardy movie where Judy Garland or Mickey Rooney says: “we HAVE to do something. I know, we’ll put on a show. We can have in the barn. Auntie Em will make the costumes”
and an hour later the barn is clean and not smelly, the animals and hay are who knows where, seats and a stage and a curtain are miraculously up and a Broadway quality play with complex orchestration and original music just happens.
Pach, this is real life. We are always gonna be shorter, fatter and less well groomed than the people in the movies. We will always be subject to Murphy’s Law.
And nothing worth having will ever come easy.
That’s how I know when I am doing something really worthwhile and really important–it’s so much harder than it should be, yet I stil want to keep going.
Keep the chin up!
uncle toby (58) — I think there’s a way to sway gun owners in the overlap crowd between the outdoorsmen and the gun crowd. The frame: there will be no outdoors to hunt if the oil crowd aren’t checked. Gas to fill your SUV will be too expensive if the oil crowd aren’t checked (since a LARGE number of the gun crowd are SUV owners).
And to the blue collar-gun owning crowd: you won’t be able to afford guns, ammo, SUV, gas or land on which to hunt if you lose your jobs to Republican-corporatist outsourcing. (BIG issue here in the land of the Big Three right now…)
The fishing and hunting guys have been in full retreat on Clusterfuck for years- it’s nothing new in the west. Guys whose dream is 24 inch trout on the end of a fly rod are not happy campers when Clusterfuck threatens watersheds- and allows his buddies to pollute streams and rivers.
if Pachacutec were the Chair of the Politburo of the United American Left, I would flame him. However, he is just one small wheel in the progressive movement and he is leading with the best of his abilities in the generally correct direction. Others may have other approaches for political change. The point is for many folk to keep trying a variety of methods, all towards wresting power away from the reactionaries and into the hands and brains and hearts of the people.
Yes, we can! The people united will never be defeated!
“The difference that I see in this case compared to the average criminal defense practice that I saw in my career is the amount of money that Libby has at his disposal to continue to paper the prosecution with motions and other filings — which, considering the hourly rates of his legal team, appears to be a hefty chunk of cash in his legal defense trust.”
–Christy H. Smith, above
——————
“As soon as the con men see that a case is likely to go to trial, they engage the best criminal lawyer available, usually one who has represented them or their friends before. Men like Erbstein and Bachrach in Chicago could be counted upon to secure acquittals in most of the cases they handled. The fees paid lawyers of this caliber are naturally every large, but the con man either has or can raise any amount of money necessary to take care of legal counsel.”
–David W. Maurer, The Big Con: The Story of the Confidence Man (1940)
Satori at 61:
Do you think Team Libby has a right to see the CIA’s referral to DOJ?
Hunting and Fishing groups have long been the best allies of conservation groups. In most cases- they are MORE effective at protecting habitat, wetlands, and public lands than are the Sierra Club. They are strong politically.
rwcole (#82)
“Clusterfuck is now in the crapper- but he is using the bullshit that worked while he still had the benefit of the doubt. It’s a disaster strategy. He won’t face the truth.”
I sure hope that you’re right. I still see to much legal parsing (e.g., the Sustein blog) trying to rationalize, ex post, every action this incompetent jerk takes.
WTF? I just went to Jeralyn’s site to catch the Goddess’s bit…and wha’??? Calling Wilson as a hostile witness?
Jebus. These guys don’t give up on torture, do they?!
Re — Key Judgments
Maybe capitalization would help — i.e., the Key Judgment section of the NIE is a summary/synopsis of the conclusions; the “key judgments” within the body of the NIE is detailed information, that may or may not be included in the Key Judgment section.
Does that help?
Team Libby may well come to rue the day they called Wilson to the stand as a “hostile witness.” Sometimes ya gotta be careful what’cha ask for.
Anybody watch CSPAN yesterday with Joseph Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment for Int’l Peace? He was fantastic. A couple of Floyd R Turbo’s and a Mrs. FR Turbo called in. The two male neanderthals both used the “endanger the troops (with your liberal rhetoric)” meme. The female said that she thought that Bush was cunning and smart enough to do secret stuff in order to protect our country. Mr. Cirincione was very poised and addressed their concerns respectfully. One neanderthal from Arkansas was so angry he was choking. He said “you can’t talk to the Iranians, the only thing they understand is pressure”. He stated that the numerous factions in Iran, blah blah…..
Cirincione had to tell him that he was referring to Iraq. Anyway, Cirincione appeared to be a good man and a very capable explainer. We are fortunate to have him as a voice of reason.
Damn, these lowbrows are scary. And apparently, they are overly represented in that an equal number of pro/con caller viewpoints are expressed. What an unfair advantage that creates for Karl, Dick and the gang.
new thread — Winds of Destiny, or how Tom DeLay becomes the Rove/Bush right hand man.
even i can see that Wilson as a witness has no bearing on perjury and obstruction of justice.
Survey USA has released it’s monthly poll listing approval of governors:
Utah Huntsman, Jon R Bush 76% 16% 60% UT KSL-TV
2 West Virginia Manchin, Joe D Bush 75% 18% 57% WV WUSA-TV
3 Connecticut Rell, Jodi R Kerry 74% 20% 54% CT WABC-TV
3 Montana Schweitzer, Brian D Bush 74% 18% 56% MT
3 North Dakota Hoeven, John R Bush 74% 19% 55% ND
6 Wyoming Freudenthal, Dave D Bush 68% 24% 44% WY
7 Oklahoma Henry, Brad D Bush 67% 26% 41% OK KFOR-TV
8 Nebraska Heineman, Dave R Bush 66% 25% 41% NE
8 New Hampshire Lynch, John D Kerry 66% 24% 42% NH WBZ-TV
10 Nevada Guinn, Kenny R Bush 62% 31% 31% NV KVBC-TV
10 Vermont Douglas, Jim R Kerry 62% 31% 31% VT
12 Arizona Napolitano, Janet D Bush 61% 35% 26% AZ KPNX-TV
13 South Dakota Rounds, Mike R Bush 60% 36% 24% SD
14 Georgia Perdue, Sonny R Bush 59% 34% 25% GA WXIA-TV WTLV-TV
14 Hawaii Lingle, Linda R Kerry 59% 31% 28% HI KHON-TV
14 Kansas Sebelius, Kathleen D Bush 59% 35% 24% KS KWCH-TV
14 New Mexico Richardson, Bill D Bush 59% 36% 23% NM KOB
Here are the most popular governors in the USA- notice anything? What happened to that red state/blue state divide?
There are seventeen of em- and 10 of the seventeen are of the opposite political party compared to the redness or blueness of their state.
West Virginia, Montana, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Arizona, Kansas, and New Mexico all voted Bush- but all have dem governors and are damned happy with em
On the other hand, Conn, Vermont, and Hawaii all voted for Kerry- and are very content with their gooper governors.
Something weird? Looks as if the red/blue divide only extends to national politics. Dems can win and succeed in red states- but they undoubtedly need to learn the lay of the land. Something to think about when considering Dean’s 50 state strategy.
Okay, my take on the latest Libby filing is that it’s pretty compelling. There are a few howlers (Joe Wilson as a defense witness, even a hostile one, is just plain silly.), but they make a reasonable case for demanding, well, whatever it is they seem to want. And that’s where they sort of peter out. At the end of it, I was thinking, “Okay, what exactly is it you were asking for again?” Because it’s clear that your client is guilty as sin, and no amount of discovery is going to change that. I think the whole point here was to say that Libby is considering a “scorched earth” defense, and he’s getting a bit antsy waiting for his pardon.
hostile witness
n. technically an “adverse witness” in a trial who is found by the judge to be hostile (adverse) to the position of the party whose attorney is questioning the witness, even though the attorney called the witness to testify on behalf of his/her client. When the attorney calling the witness finds that the answers are contrary to the legal position of his/her client or the witness becomes openly antagonistic, the attorney may request the judge to declare the witness to be “hostile” or “adverse.” If the judge declares the witness to be hostile (i.e. adverse), the attorney may ask “leading” questions which suggest answers or are challenging to the testimony just as on cross examination of a witness who has testified for the opposition.
See also: adverse witness leading witness
Chidyke, post #37–
That was excellent, thanks!
Oops, got ahead of myself rw… I was responding to your comment #62, not 82.
Folks something about Sustein’s post is intriguing. Sustein states ” In assessing declassification decisions, it is important to distinguish among the following: 1) a declassification decision designed to inform the public (fine); 2) a declassification decision designed to correct a widespread misunderstanding of why the President did something …; 3) a declassification decision that jeopardizes national security (to say the least, not fine … 4) a declassification decision that discloses the name of a CIA agent (almost always a subset of 3), and to say the least, not fine …; 5) a declassification decision that represents, in context, an effort not only to defend the President but also to mislead the public (not fine, …).”
Sustein always uses “not fine” in describing the negative aspects of a “disclosure decision” by Shrub. Can somebody clarify for me whether there is any “legal” debate in the normal sense of the word? Aren’t Shrub’s declassification decisions by definition “legal” given the structure of the law? (Prof or Mary, HELP!!) Although “legal,” some of these actions can still be considered impeachable.
One last thought on the Joe-Wilson-as-hostile-witness gambit. My instinct is that this was a huge prosecution misstep. It’s going to bring more publicity to Joe Wilson and, by extension, to Valerie Wilson. The media keep forgetting that there’s a clear victim in this case, and she happens to be very photogenic blond woman. If she ever breaks her silence, it’s going to be devastating for Team Bush.
Frank -
“…was a huge prosecution misstep…”
You meant “defense” misstep, no? Joe is Mr. Unflappable, he will incinerate Team Libby on the stand. They will rue the day.
But, it’s just a ploy anyway.
Maybe Team Libby is also signalling that they’re not ready to sacrifice W and Dick, they’re still on Team WH?
Agh. That was the term I was thinking of, just came to me, might have come sooner if I was a lawyer.
Mens rea. The method of disclosure of the classified information goes to Bush’s state of mind. It goes to Libby’s state of mind, also, regardless of how he received the information or authorization from Exec or OVP. Specifically in Libby’s case: the man pulls a slip of paper out of his pocket to disclose to Miller. He had malice aforethought, planned deliberately to disclose the information regardless of the damage disclosure might wreak. Libby reiterated the information repeatedly, suggesting willfulness.
As the hubbub over Iran gets more intense, I believe that this case was related in some way, probably through OSP/WHIG long-range strategy, and that they want to do something with permanent effect before the case goes to trial or any further indictments hamper their ability to act. We are living in a very dangerous time.
Pach & friends,
I don’t do flame wars. I didn’t mean to go overboard with the word “defeatist”. Protesting is not easy, and it is difficult to judge the effects. It is true that you can set up a big protest that goes almost unnoticed. I was down at the Capitol for the “Drown out the State of the Union” event in January. It was a cool event with a reasonable turnout that got almost no attention. What was missing? I don’t know, but I am working on an answer. On the other hand, Cindy Sheehan put up a tent in a ditch in Crawford and had a pretty decent impact, IMHO. Just like Kos, Jane, Atrios, and the rest of the gang “Crashed the Gate” of the media, there are ways for those of us who can’t type as fast to crash other gates and to reach out to other people. To say “they don’t show up” is not fair to the students who rode busses all night to come to the counter-inauguration or the Sept. 24 March. How far, and in what direction, each of us will go to try and stop the next war is a personal decision.
peace,
jim
Come on Ms. Smith as Bob Somerby over at the Daily Howler has pointed out those of us on the liberal side ran way overboard with this NIE story.
Read today’s Daily Howler for the latest installment.
In point of fact regardless of whether you like Bush, Libby, etc. any decent reading of the NIE document they selectively “leaked” did in fact back up their argument.
Whether the word “vigorously” appeared in the “key judgments” (it did not) or elsewhere in the document (it did) is immaterial mental gymnastics, when the NIE is actually read. Meanwhile us liberals want to pretend that the document said no such thing, etc, etc.
Give it up. That is exactly why they picked that document to leak… because it bolstered their case. Let’s get over it. There are plenty of other sources which refuted this claim and the larger point is that Bush cherry-picked from among these sources as he has done in so many cases.
I think we do ourselves a disservice in pretending we don’t get that, as your article above seems to do.
Best,
Jon
Looseheadprop: Thanks, but I’m not discouraged. Quite the opposite: I’m the optimistic one who sees continuous progress, even though we’re coming from way behind.
My comments represent a rather premeditated challenge to get some people off the fence to band together with their peers, significantly multiplying their individual power. Ten people at a senator’s office >= 2000 emails, letters or phone calls.
I’m not just hopeful: I’m optimistic. But sometimes the coach has to yell.
Cheers!
JR makes an excellent point in comment 89. The Daily Howler really nailed this from the start. I think Firedoglake is bruised from this discussion. Care to follow up with a front page post discussing this?
Firedoglake is one of my top blogs to read, but this type of thing is a little problematic.
Christy, re One of the odd aspects of this particular case is the amount of media coverage of the intricate little details and cbl (48): It seems possible that blog coverage is in fact responsible for the volume of corporate media attention in this case.
In short, I wonder where we’d be without you and the others who make sure we know what’s going on.
I like the Daily Howler and have been reading it for years, but I’ve got to tell you, his rant about FDL and Christy is disturbing. The issue is a hairsplitter at best and for the Howler to get that snide and nasty over a relatively trivial bit of data in the grand scheme of the Plame investigation, smacks of sour grapes or worse. Feel free to pat yourself on the back for catching the error about the NIE statements but denigrating FDL’s coverage of the story and insinuating that its readers are lemming-like in their yield to FDL on things Plame is truly misinformed. Please remember, we are all humns here and Redd goes out of her way to be even-handed, honest and fair about a very intricate set of circumstances. Lighten up Howler.
There isn’t enough money in the world for me to take a case like this. I’d rather defend a double murder case than deal with the mountain of paper in this case.
There are a lot of people in the lefty blogosphere doing a lot of great work for no pay, and Daily Howler is one of them.
Yeah, but did yuou read what he wrote on this? Check it out:
Hey, you dumb f*cking rubes: This morning, over at firedoglake, Christy Hardin Smith is treating her readers like a pack of dumb, f*cking rubes. “ReddHead†just can’t puzzle it out the meaning of Fitzgerald’s correction. Try to believe that she wrote this:
SMITH (4/13/06): Now, to those of us who have been obsessed with this case since the investigation began, this has some meaning. But I can guarantee you that if you tried to explain the significance of this to someone who hasn’t paid attention to the case, you are simply going to get some eyes glazing over and a “huh?â€
Pathetic. So let’s explain it nice and slow, so slow that even Smith will get it.
OK, so you don’t like the Daily Howler’s language. That’s really beside the point. Was the Daily Howler incorrect?
Eric,
I think the issue is tangential in the grand scheme of the Plame leak investigation, right or wrong. I also think that that level of nastiness should be directed toward whoever committed the treasonous act of outing Plame in the first place. Just my humble opinion.
Eric,
re “OK, so you don’t like the Daily Howler’s language. That’s really beside the point. Was the Daily Howler incorrect?” I would say that Bob is guilty of cherry-picking here. He excerpted Susan’s statement and left off the conclusion that invalidates his entire point: “(I know, I’ve tried, even with legal beagles — unless they are political junkies, they don’t seem to see a huge difference.)”
I’ve read Bob’s Daily Howler since the 2000 campaign. He’s done good work over the years, and I still give him a read daily. However (here it comes), he thinks that he is the only rational voice out here. Only he saw Gore being picked on by the media. Only he can correct what’s wrong with education. Only he can correctly/accurately analyze the media. And so on. His attack on FDL is par for his course. And, in my view, unwarranted regardless of the vulgarity.
OK, Howler was nitpicky and nasty. Fair enough.
As for FDL, do we send a barrage of email to the post.com’s ombudsman? Howler makes a valid point. People are picking nits daily and getting worked up into a lather, on both sides. FDL should discuss these things, just as we would like more discussion from places such as post.com and The Post itself.
I enjoy many of people/outlets with which the Howler is being “nitpicky”. That said, I can’t find fault with Howler’s points.
OK, Howler was nitpicky and nasty. Fair enough.
That’s all he does. That’s why he’s useless. He painted himself into a corner on the Joe Wilson affair and he can’t get over himself enough to admit it.
Yes, liberals are getting nasty. Somerby is getting upset. You’re breaking my heart.
.
Whether the word “vigorously†appeared in the “key judgments†(it did not) or elsewhere in the document (it did) is immaterial mental gymnastics
No, it isn’t, it’s part of the selective leaking that was used to push back against the truth.
That’s over Somerby’s head, I guess, or else his ego’s too big to admit his little “A HAH!” here is nothing. He’s the guy going overboard.
He has to he’s marginalized himself by carrying the Republicans’ water on Joe Wilson all along.
.
I followed Bob and TDH for a couple of years until I found FDL and Bob shifted his coverage mostly to education matters. I’m most greatful to him for pointing out in detail the trickery of the press and for his coverage of the misdeeds of the press relative to the 2000 election.
I was puzzled by his treatment of Joe Wilson. Obviously Bob thinks that Joe is a BSer who overstates his case, and that pisses Bob off. But, in the one or two cases I tracked down, it was Bob who overstated.
Bob’s rudeness toward Christy about the distinction between “key judgements” and mere assertions goes well beyond anything negative he said about Wilson. And, Christy is right on when she writes: “But I can guarantee you that if you tried to explain the significance of this to someone who hasn’t paid attention to the case, you are simply going to get some eyes glazing over and a ‘huh?’” She said nothing that deserves that condescending rudeness.
These criticisms of the Howler have nothing to do with the actual content of the article in question.