The great game of diplomacy and war has played out over the centuries all over the globe, but never more fiercely than in the Middle East, Persia and Southwest Asia — between the Russians and the British, and to some extent the French, in the 1800s, and long before then, the dreams of conquest of Alexander the Great. But despite the power and the wealth put behind all those imperial ambitions, the grasp on the imposed nation-states slipped through the hands of each imperial power like so many grains of sand through the neck of the hourglass.
The tribal rivalries in the Arab states, in Persia and in the Southwest Asian nation-states (today known as Afghanistan and Pakistan) bubble up and subsume their potential connections in Islam. But the fierceness of the pride and the loyalty of these tribes against an outside invader has, time and again across history, proved to be a protection against any lasting attempt at a dynasty imposed from the outside.
That the Bush Administration has chosen to ignore this history — and to take the long-discredited path of preemptive warfare in an already volatile region — is something we have known since the Iraqi invasion. But the long-term effects of those choices, the ripples out into the whole of history and our future, we are only now beginning to reap.
Things are heating up with Iran. The head of Iran’s nuclear program confirmed that they have enriched uranium at a press conference earlier in the week — and now there are multiple reports that Iran plans on large-scale enrichment of uranium.
Froomkin has an exceptional round-up of all sides of this issue and some great links to reporting on this story. Well done, even by the high Froomkin standards, and worth a click-thru on each one.
The TPM Muckraker has a copy of Monday’s gaggle (yesterday, Scotty escaped much questioning, because they were on the road) – the Helen Thomas exchange portion is not to be missed. This is one story that leaves me worried and speechless at the moment — wish I had some words of wisdom, but all I keep thinking is "holy crap, we can’t possibly make an even worse dumb ass mistake, can we?" I don’t like the answer that keeps popping into my brain.
And that is all because of stories like this one:
On May 29, 2003, 50 days after the fall of Baghdad, President Bush proclaimed a fresh victory for his administration in Iraq: Two small trailers captured by U.S. and Kurdish troops had turned out to be long-sought mobile "biological laboratories." He declared, "We have found the weapons of mass destruction."
The claim, repeated by top administration officials for months afterward, was hailed at the time as a vindication of the decision to go to war. But even as Bush spoke, U.S. intelligence officials possessed powerful evidence that it was not true.
A secret fact-finding mission to Iraq — not made public until now — had already concluded that the trailers had nothing to do with biological weapons. Leaders of the Pentagon-sponsored mission transmitted their unanimous findings to Washington in a field report on May 27, 2003, two days before the president’s statement.
The three-page field report and a 122-page final report three weeks later were stamped "secret" and shelved. Meanwhile, for nearly a year, administration and intelligence officials continued to publicly assert that the trailers were weapons factories….
…The contents of the final report, "Final Technical Engineering Exploitation Report on Iraqi Suspected Biological Weapons-Associated Trailers," remain classified. But interviews reveal that the technical team was unequivocal in its conclusion that the trailers were not intended to manufacture biological weapons. Those interviewed took care not to discuss the classified portions of their work.
"There was no connection to anything biological," said one expert who studied the trailers. Another recalled an epithet that came to be associated with the trailers: "the biggest sand toilets in the world."
I have no idea whether the folks at the DoD Office of Special Plans for Iraq ever communicated this report to the President, or whether it was buried to hide evidence of their own failures along with that of the pro-war faction within the CIA that lapped up all the Curveball nonsense it could find. But whether the President was made aware and chose to make false public statements anyway, or was not aware and made these statements having been given only a tiny window into the real situation — either option is terrifying in terms of its implications for war planning and the post-war occupational decisions, and for the state of the Presidency overall.
We charged into Iraq, knowing that Saddam Hussein was likely more than ten years away from being able to even enrich uranium, let alone build any feasible weaponry. And even that turned out to be a generous estimate once we saw the state of things in his feeble arsenal of nuclear weapons possibilities. (Despite all the hype from Condi Rice, Dick Cheney and others in the run-up to the war.)
But we did so knowing — KNOWING — that both Iran and North Korea were much, much closer to completion. And knowing that if things went badly in Iraq, our military and economic resourcees would be drained to the breaking point, leaving us very little margin for error elsewhere around the globe.
Rep. Jane Harmon was recently quoted as saying that the intel on Iran was very thin, and not at all an accurate picture. All we have is the public posturing of two heads of state — the Iranian and the US — to go on, and frankly neither of them is exactly trustworthy at this point in terms of public statement reliability. And how sad is that for a state of affairs?
There is no room for errors here. And what we have is a President who refuses to own up to his past mistakes, and so is incapable of learning from them. What we need are some adults to stand up and say "enough" and to demand that things be done carefully, methodically, and with an eye toward the long-term consequences of our choices.
I’ve said this time and again — "yee haw!" is not a foreign policy.
In this case, it could be a prescription for all out warfare around the globe. This is not the time for members of Congress to put party politics first and hunker down, hoping for the best. The President’s advisors have all given him the advice that has led us into the quagmire in Iraq. Do we want to risk that same quality of advice being all that he hears for his decision-making with regard to Iran?
There is no room for errors when you are talking about potential nuclear weapons usage. None. Someone must make the "man-child playing at being king" hear the sense of that — and talk him down off the ledge before we all reap his growing whirlwind.
This is very serious business with Iran. And it is no time to play games or strut around posturing as to who has the biggest guns. We have no room for errors, and I have no more patience for those who have been sitting back and allowing this President to do as he pleases. It is past time for the grown-ups to step in and have the talk — and it is time for the President to be forced to act Presidential.
This is no time for the madness of King George — our children deserve leadership, not posturing, and all of our futures depend on it.
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Fitz
Here’s another good one- WaPo story linked at Huffington.
AP
May 27, 2003: Pentagon Memo To Admin.: Iraq Trailers Not WMDs…
May 29,2003: Bush: “We Have Found Weapons Of Mass Destruction
Sharkbabe!
Albert Einstein !
Hubris
The thing is, the BushCo/PNAC “Real Men Go To Teheran” campaign is playing out exactly as their Iraq runup did at this time in 2002.
Bogus “evidence” that actual authorities debunk? Check.
The US doing everything it can to provoke an invasion-justifying response? Check.
BushCo/PNAC only briefing those Democrats it knows are already in the tank for them? Check.
The US news media spinelessly going along for the most part? Check.
Except that this is going to be Iraq on steroids.
Any guesses as to when the White House will condemn the irresponsible reporting that endangered national security, by revealing the shockingly poor state of our intelligence on the sand toilets?
[And when you realize this came from the same paper that gave us the “Cheney was booed for a bad pitch, it makes you realize that we need to demand media leadership as well!]
lufitziak!
i used to wunder how could it be that folks let dicktaters take over, but now i kin see that it could happen whilst yer watchin.
or is this a new lil parabull: best to take the nuke outta yer own eye sos ye kin see clear to take out the nukes that gleam lack a dream in the eyes of yer naybors?
we had a republick. kin we keep it?
Again, go check out what the experts really have to say about this. Iran, patriotic posturing aside, isn’t as far along as it says it is. And nuking Iran will lead to Very Bad Things.
Christy/Redd,
I think you mean “Southwest Asian” states in para. 2 –
South-East Asian States are Vietnam, etc. I can totally understand the slip/confusion :~)
“The technical team’s preliminary report was transmitted in the early hours of May 27, just before its members began boarding planes to return home. Within 24 hours, the CIA published its white paper, “Iraqi Mobile Biological Warfare Agent Production Plants,” on its Web site.”
uh, I thought it was a “secret.” They put it on a PUBLIC web site? so why was the report classified? oh, never mind.
Great post. From Sy Hersh’s article to yesterday’s Iranian news to Billmon’s post yesterday, I’ve been worried about when the next shoe will drop. Wish I had more time to post on it. Small point: Do you mean south-west asia? South-east asia was the last screw-up!
Bombing Iran will destabilize Pakistan (with whom Iran shares a long border) and put nuclear weapons in the hands of Al Qaeda.
We must shout that from the roof tops. The theocracy in Iran is intentionally baiting King George, knowing that he and AIPAC are sufficiently Custer-like to fall for the bait and make the attack that will cost them dearly.
Bombing Iran will destabilize Pakistan and put nuclear weapons in the hands of Al Qaeda.
“wild speculation” was used 8 times by Scotty to debunk questions about nuking Persia. It’s the old deflection by painting critics as “Bad people with bad motives”.
Maitreya!
Recall that Pakistan already has nuclear weapons. That is the enormous difference between Pakistan and the rest of our military dictatorship clients in the region. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, now Libya, Qatar, etc. are entirely insignificant to the plans of Al Qaeda or whoever takes Al Qaeda’s place. Pakistan is the key to their future. They know it, but Bush and AIPAC don’t.
Southeast Asian nation-states (today known as Afghanistan and Pakistan)
Are these south west?
Really, I am speechless and sick with dread at the coming war with Iran, it is like being forced to watch an infant pouring gasoline all over the house and picking up the matches. I don’t know what makes Bushco want to literally destroy this nation and all of our lives, but it seems to be their aim.
there never was an actual decision-point about using the newly-produced atomic bombs on Japan. In the heat of war it would have been inconceivable not to try the extravagantly-expensive devices. Since 1945 nuclear weapons have been available to major powers but have been so unthinkable for actual use. Only a GWB would even contemplate on destroying that 61-year-old consensus. All previous leaders have looked into that yawning abyss of radioactive hell and retreated…
Crazy busy week for me, but as I scanned some of the previous threads I have question.
rwcole is trying to measure what benchmark will herald the downfall of the Bush regime. Has anyone taken a look at what a Hastert regime would look like? That kind of speculation is way out of my expertise or pay grade, but I think it would be uselful and helpful to start picturing such a thing.
I have a bet with my spouse that W will not serve out his term. If he doesn’t, what will we be stuck with—presuming either before the 2006 election—Hastert— or after the election—Hastert or Pelosi????
I sure would make for an interesting project.
I heard NBC’s DoD reporter Jim Miklashevski on the radio this morning stating that the common wisdom was that even if everything fell perfectly into place for the Iranian nuclear program it would be at least 5 years before they could procure a nuclear bomb. He added that the IAEA has come to a similar conclusion and it’s more likely somewhere between 5 and 10 years away. He talked about how hard a sell it would be for Condi Rice to stand up and make the “mushroom cloud” argument again after Iraq.
Later, I heard weapons expert Michael Levi from the Council on Foreign Relations on the Rachel Maddow show discussing how unlikely our government would be to use tactical nukes on Iranian uranium enrichment facilities. He also claimed that Sy Hersh was wrong “80% of the time”, which seems like BS to me. Rachel promptly stated that he was right about Mai Lai and Abu Ghraib…..
Levi said that it was more likely that a sustained air campaign of conventional weapons would be more likely. Hmm, not exactly what I wanted to hear.
Iran cannot happen. It would be the last straw (and likely the start of WWIII). Be prepared to rise up.
oy fuckin vey.
A few thoughts if we nuke Iran:
Won’t L’il Kim seriously try to lob a preemptive nuke at, say, LA or San Francisco or Seattle? (I think Portland is safe.) Or am I being way too paranoid?
Will Dick Cheney move to Paraguay afterwards?
Great post.
I think any analysis of the situation has to start with the premise that none of the statements of the Bush administration have any truth value.
Um, not that they’re lying..
Anyway, there is a reason behind the attack on Iraq, and the same reason is behind the threats on Iran.
The reason is oil, of course.
The problem is that Peak Oil is coming, sooner or later.
We have one huge potential competitor for oil, whose demand is skyrocketing just as discovery of new oil fields is really slowing down: China.
I am convinced that the only rational explanation of the administration’s actions is in terms of cutting off China’s access to oil. In one way, this is being accomplished directly, by military force; in another way, this happens by raising the price of oil by lowering the supply, which would probably hurt the Chinese much worse than us.
I know this sounds crazy, but I think it fits the facts better than simply saying Bush is nuts.
Remember, Cheney is an oilman, and the first thing he did in 2001, according to O’Neill, is start looking at the oilfields in Iraq.
This war is about oil, no question.
I think it’s about oil and China.
As far as Bush’s threat to nuke Iran…. yeah, Bush is a megalomaniac.
But Cheney is making the strategy.
If the factual calculation is such that Iran is becoming a legitimate threat, logic would conclude that Israel has a larger interest in seeing Iran’s fledgling nuclear program dismantled (by bombings). In fact, Israel has a demonstrated history of resolving such situations accordingly.
Additionally, if Israel has not yet concluded to make the strike, then it is hard to imagine the rationale being used by this administration that would warrant we precede Israel’s often and necessarily preemptive strategy. Certainly the threat to Israel from Iran, when coupled with the Palestinian election of a radical Hamas government, would far exceed any presumed threat to America.
If this administration goes forward with a US assault on Iran rather than to consult with and support Israel (as a silent & out of sight ally) in making any necessary strikes, then I would assert that it may be reasonable to conclude that the decision to initiate a US assault was simply another in a long string of questionable strategic and political calculations that have failed to reverse the ever sliding support for the President’s positions and for his struggling party.
read more here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
IMHO, Iran’s enthusiastic pursuit of nuclear weapons is a natural result of what the Leaker-in-Chief so ubiquitously refers to as , “regime change.” One of the many reasons that everyone told the Leaker-in-Chief, not to invade Iraq was that it would accelerate nuclear research as a poison pill deterrent to any attempts at regime change. This isn’t happening just in Iran…., but it’s a result of Bush’s virtually unilateral decision to occupy Iraq. In occupying Iraq, we also severely crippled the U.N.’s ability to buffer “might makes right.” If regimes thought that the U.N. security council, offered some protection, they would be less likely to invest in poison pills.
OT, rw, thanks for your coverage of the election results last night. I think a lot people will be interested in the polling for the runoff when it becomes available.
Lets not forget what it was that Valerie Plame & her CIA front company were working on when she was outed & the entire operation rendered useless — Iranian efforts to develop nuclear weapons. You really couldn’t write the plot of this administration as fiction: no one would believe it. I guess, when it comes down to it, that’s why Herr Goebels’ “Big Lie” works.
Jay,
I have been wondering about what you said (that Maddow said) — namely, is all this unprovoked nuclear first strike talk going to make us all sigh a huge sigh of relief when all we do is bomb and send in cruise missiles minus the nukes?
Weirdly, I will be mighty relieved if that is all the insanity we manage.
*ilson, I agree with your 19.
I think corporate media stories about wind patterns and the radioactive fallout circling the globe a few times are the best way to get the public’s attention on how bad an idea this is.
I apologize in advance for being didactic, and this is no comment on the substance of the post, but Afghanistan and Pakistan are states of Southwest Asia, whereas Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia are among the state of Southeast Asia.
OT, but WaPo has a small story on an amendment to Fitz’s filing on Scooter. The amended filing says that Scooter was to tell Miller some of the NIE “key judgements” and that Iraq was vigorously trying to obtain uranium, but not that this was a key judgement. IMHO, the intention may still have been to have Judy come away with the impression that it the Niger hoax was a key judgement, but that’s neither here nor there. This is not a big deal, but I know how seriously we FDL’ers take being accurate and complete!
WaPo article here
No, really, here!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..40_pf.html
I just posted an article on my site about the choices facing the United States vis a vis Iran. It surveys our weak position in this crisis. It also suggested a way back from crisis by examining how Kennedy dealt with the Cuban Missle Crisis.
I read Billmon’s post. As usual excellent and extremely entertaining reading (stylistically, that is). But he doesn’t mention Pakistan.
Juan Cole, incidentally, says that Iran is years away from the kind of uranium enrichment that would produce a weapon. And that their government is horrifically unpopular.
But Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan. Thousands of Iranians with radiation burns fleeing east to Pakistan after a nuclear strike? Does anyone really believe that Pakistan’s government which has obsequiously supported the US will survive? Do you remember where “Nuclear Ali” came from?
Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan!
We need to be sure we understand the news. “Enrichment” is achieved, in terms of nuclear energy use, at 3.5%. Enrichment for weapons use requires 80% enrichment. Don’t get stampeded.
So many times in the past, we have allowed the administration to turn facts into conjecture into fear. If you don’t believe they are going to try again, you just haven’t been paying attention. Not to mention turning fantasy into facts.
Should there be another terrorist attack on this country, inevitable, some have said, I shudder to think what our response would be…
The story about Clusterfuck’s lies concerning “mobile labs” makes me fuckin crazy. The lyin hunk of shit was told the truth and then broadcast lies.
When a guy lies as often as Clusterfuck- you really have to totally discount everything he says- about Iran too.
Will he invade- or bomb- or is he bluffing.
He would certainly do either if it were in his self interest- so we don’t really know.
Iran with nukes is NOT a good thing. We need a president with enough operating nuerons and credibility to work this issue through sanely. Instead we’ve got Clusterfuck- for nearly three more years.
Americans needed BADLY to get rid of this piece of shit in 04- but didn’t- and now we are going to pay for it.
Even if military action is the right thing to do in Iran- (and I’m not saying that it is) Clusterfuck is the last person in the world who should be managing it. Besides his obvious incompetence- he has no credibility. The world will put the worst possible face on whatever he does.
Holy shit- this thing is getting damned serious.
Now if he invades and DOESN’T use nukes- he will pose as a moderate.
It should also be noted that the term WMD (Words Missing the Definition) were not previously used for chemical or biological agents. The deaths resulting from such an attack would be horrifying, but the numbers would likely be dozens or low hundreds at most.
The re-definition of WMD was likely a necessity, given the weakness of the proof of a nuclear program.
I agree that it’s time for the grown-ups to abruptly turn off the drunken teenage music blaring through the White House, kick out all the bleary-eyed party-crashers, and start putting dirty glasses in the dishwasher. By far the best vehicle for accomplishing this is impeachment.
Yet even impeachment may not be enough, because really there’s no reason to believe that a Democratic administration would be more likely to remove permanent US military bases from Iraq than a Republican one. There’s no reason to believe that a Democratic president wouldn’t bomb Iran (Kennedy invaded Cuba, Johnson escalated Vietnam, Carter sanctioned genocide in East Timor, Clinton bombed Iraq and Yugoslavia, in all cases in violation of international law). And there’s no reason to believe that the inevitable eventual failure of Great Game geopolitics will discourage US military planners, bloated with high-tech exceptionalism, from vigorously pursuing its hegemonic visions at all costs. It must be understood that human life and domestic politics don’t matter much to US military planners; their thinking looks at a 50-year time horizon. Many progressive writers have always viewed the Iraq war in the context of an overarching and expanding US imperial agenda for energy dominance in the 21st century. Even I myself wrote blog posts essays in 2002, 2003, and 2004 containing such viewpoints.
Only a profound revitalization of American grassroots democracy and globally interdependent activism can offset the overwhelming momentum with which the US corporate-political establishment — which includes both Democrats and Republicans — is reeling toward self-destruction.
Peace,
Kai
PS- FDL rocks.
to: Christy Hardin Smith
Southeast Asian nation-states (today known as Afghanistan and Pakistan)
http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/as.htm
This map list’s them as middle east.
sho nuf, it’s there: http://www.odci.gov/cia/report…..index.html
dated may 28, 2003
Great post Christy.
Unfortunately, I think we are well and truly fucked, and anybody who believes that a delusional King George and his courtiers will not manufacture a casus belli to confront Iran is smoking better shit than I am.
For Chimpus it’s a win-win situation…a new war either restores his imperial presidency, or hastens the apocalyptic “end times” he and his ilk so eagerly await.
“Remember The Maine!”.
From Juan Cole’s “Informed Comment” today:
The ability to slightly enrich uranium is not the same as the ability to build a bomb. For the latter, you need at least 80% enrichment, which in turn would require about 16,000 small centrifuges hooked up to cascade. Iran does not have 16,000 centrifuges. It seems to have 180. Iran is a good ten years away from having a bomb, and since its leaders, including Supreme Jurisprudent Ali Khamenei, say they do not want an atomic bomb because it is Islamically immoral, you have to wonder if they will ever have a bomb.
Christy,
When you write things like:
” The head of Iran’s nuclear program confirmed that they have enriched uranium at a press conference earlier in the week — and now there are multiple reports that Iran plans on large-scale enrichment of uranium.”
you should qualify that with the fact that Iran has permission from the IAEA to enrich uranium to 65% for their domestic nuclear power program. 65% enrichment is far different (and less difficult) from the 90%+ enrichment needed for nuclear weapons. Failing to make this distinction contributes to the BushCo “Iran with nukes now!” scaremongering.
John Jacob Jinglehiemer Schmidt!
they have enriched uranium at a press conference earlier in the week
Shheeeit, that must have been some presser!
As I sift through all of this dizzying material, I am struck with two thoughts:
–Are the BushCo strategists (not the Leaker-In-Chief himself, but the DeadEye Gang) setting this up so that if we ONLY use a conventional strike and not a tactical nuke that we will claim to be showing restraint?!
–Isn’t it funny how we seem to be dealing with the “axis of evil” in the inverse order of their actual WMD capability?
AUMF will be cited when the attack on Iran is started. Congress needs to roll back AUMF now!
Also from Juan Cole: Iran Can Now Make glowing Mickey Mouse Watches
The Preznit should realize that there are many pregnant women carrying fetuses in Iran. Does he want to be remembered as the “the nuclear abortionist” ?
In two short paragraphs, Dan Froomkin said it best, when he responded to Deb Howell’s label of “highly opinionated and liberal” as December:
“This column’s advocacy is in defense of the public’s right to know what its leader is doing and why. To that end, it calls attention to times when reasonable, important questions are ducked; when disingenuous talking points are substituted for honest explanations; and when the president won’t confront his critics — or their criticisms — head on.
“The journalists who cover Washington and the White House should be holding the president accountable. When they do, I bear witness to their work. And the answer is for more of them to do so — not for me to be dismissed as highly opinionated and liberal because I do.”
Repeat after me: Accountability. Accountability. Accountability.
That’s the word of the moment, and it scares the pants off of Bush, Cheney, Rove, and most of the others at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Accountability. Accountability. Accountability.
[For those who have not yet read him, Froomkin’s “White House Briefing” is at http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00879.html (though he is on vacation at the moment).]
1. Regarding the mobile biological laboratory claim back in summer, 2003: Within hours of the photographs of one of the alleged “labs” surfacing, whatreallyhppened.com posted photos of meteorological analysis trailers for artillery batteries sold by a UK firm. That company stated they had sold such items to Iraq back in the late 1980s. wrh also posted links to a U.S.Army artillery battalion (155mm howitzers) which had a picture up on their battalion website of similar trailers or trucks. Within 24 hours, references to the trucks disappeared from the U.S. Army web site. Weather analysis trailers.
2. Regarding the possibility of nuclear conflict with Iran: I think we’ve got it backward. Maybe the larger issue within the Bush civilian planning is TO USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN IRAN. the subordinate issue would be to invade Iran or force regime change there and in Syria. These wackos may feel the best way to make a very important point to North Korea and other possible little nukesters out there, is to show we mean business and WILL exercise any option.
Kitt, thanks, I am going to send that to the WaPoo’s online political chat today.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01644.html
question for marky, comment 24-
i agree with your assessment that this is war for control of oil; i think that’s pretty much commonsense.but saboteurs have kept iraq from
reastablishing prewar oil production levels;
it’s a safe bet that future geurilla forces
would do the same sabotage to iranian oil
production- in a regionwide uproar saudi arabia
and kuwait would probably get their production
and security threatened.
how could the world oil markets possibly withstand this?
how long would this undo world prosperity?
what are these guys thinking? this is a serious question- even best case scenario- what do you think these guys are thinking?
Hubris Sonic and Lupin,
have been checking in over at Gilliard’s since the latest Hersh story broke (remember, his previous articles had an April 06 Incursion Date) but no Iran/Nuke threads yet – Have been wanting to hear from the ‘Gilliard Grown Ups’ like yourselves
If in fact it’s all some irresponsible hype so as to make a conventional invasion look less bad (and I really don’t know on that ) just what military were they planning on using ?!?!?- CW says ours has been run down and stretched dangerouysly thin
care to share your thoughts and impressions with us
Holy. Crap. This will seem OT, but it’s very much related. If I was very concerned before, I’m terrified now.
Check out this diary at DKos. Iced underwear? Hydrogen peroxide? 200-300 mg Zoloft?
OMFG. If this is only a gag, it’s an awfully good one.
I really wish Prof. Foland were here to check my facts, but among the things I teach is nuclear non-proliiferation treay (NPT) and its obligations.
The technical difficulties in making a bomb are first getting sufficient fissile material for its production — either very enriched uranium (U-235 which is what people here are talking about) or plutonium which is much preferred boom boom material and is the by-product of nuclear reactors (it is created when U-238 is bombarded in a reactor with radiation and heat). The general way to work toward a bomb is to build a significant civil/military nuclear power system and then divert the waste to plutonium production. that is why the NPT creates/requires a cradle to grave approach to nuclear material. Whether you are a nuclear state member or non-nuclear state member, there are very clear guidleines for how nuclear material is produced, transported, and disposed.
That is why, as part of our negotiating strategy during the NPT talks, we sponsored a program calle (no joke) “Atoms for Peace” which was our promise to export nuclear power technology and fuel to our client states (and Russia to theirs) in return for our promise to maintain the integrity of the fuel cyle security.
OK, post-cold awar, the client state system has collapsed. the civil nuclear program od Russia’s former client N. Korea has produced boms. Pakistan and India, both with borrowed technology and through the diversion of nuclear power waste have created — and tested — bombs. Iran is just the next inevitable country to do a similar project (include, of course, Israel and South Africa). Near nuclear states also include Brazil and Argentina and considering the size of its civiliian nuclear power program, Taiwan.
OK, so the enrichment technology is now available in Iran, but that leaves very serious technological hurdles ahead. Most notably, a nuclear trigger for a bomb. In short, a sophisticated nuclear weapon needs a nuclear explosion to set it off properly (it can and was done originally with a conventional explosive trigger, but it is not a high-likelihood solution). Nuclear triggers are hard to produce, and the ones that exist are very well guarded (or at least they used to be, ask Putin where all the Ukranian triggers are).
This is why Iran, even if it had enough fissile material of sufficient quality (which no one believes they do) would be 5-10 years away from the technology necessary to create a nuclear weapons program (and I am distinguishing on ebomb from several deliverable ones).
apropos George W Bush, the nuclear abortionist : in addition to many fetuses killed immediately in Iran, the radioactive fallout will spread to many countries, including the USA. Pregnant females are very sensitive to malignant environmental agents such as radioactivity – miscarriages due to Bush’s nuking Iran will be occurring for many years thereafter.
So much for “The Sanctity of Life…”
MSNBC Question of the Day
Iran nuclear threat: How should it be handled?
Diplomatically
86%
Militarily
14%
* 480 responses
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080261/#anc_QOD041206
Ranye -
Nahhhhh…entertaining, to be sure, but my BS-o-meter just arc’d and flamed out on that stuff.
I totally agree with RevDeb at 20, but I don’t think anything will happen until after the election in Nov. Then, due to the line of succession being less than spectacular, perhaps we should start considering other alternatives. Bush said that he doesn’t periodically reinvent himself, but one wonders what he’d be like without Cheney, Rumsfeld, Hadley, Gonzales, Rice, Rove…
We can’t do much with the line of succession, but we can certainly hog tie this President and keep him in check to reduce the damage.
Recommend :
http://news.nationaljournal.co…..330nj1.htm
PREWAR INTELLIGENCE
Insulating Bush
By Murray Waas, National Journal.
and
The Plame Game
What Murray Waas’s big scoop may really tell us about Bush’s pre-war deceptions.
By Greg Sargent
http://www.prospect.org/web/pa…..leId=11370
and
http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubz…..now_p.html
Murray Waas ir our Woodward Now
by Jay Rosen
jesus, rayne- i was eating breakfast when i clicked over. you could have warned me!
Yesterday, I posted a paraphrase of a quote from Sy Hersh’s article on war with Iran, in which Hersh wrote that Bush has a messianic vision of himself ’saving Iran’.
I asked the question “Who does he see himself saving it from ? To whose war drums are Bush’s feet marching ?”
Well, here’s the answer…
…
The convention, at which the keynoter, none other than the administration’s ultimate hawk, Vice President Cheney, vowed “meaningful consequences” if Iran did not freeze its nuclear program, drew several hundred Democratic and Republican lawmakers in what could only be described as a show of raw political power.
“I don’t think there’s another group in the country that has two successive conferences in which the centerpiece was beating the drums for war in Iran,”
Posted from http://www.antiwar.com/lobe/?articleid=8843
George W. Bush: is there any man less deserving of the title, “Mr. President”?
Marky (24): yes. There is no doubt (in my mind, anyway) that this Administration is all about oil. Taking a historical perspective starting with Bush 41, we are in the midst of a series of oil wars. The first was in ‘91 with the “Kuwait liberation”. Currently, we’re in the second war with the “Iraq liberation”. Iran, arguably is the next one. Could an armed confrontation over oil with China (or Saudi Arabia, or Venezuela) be in our future? I wouldn’t bet against it.
Contrary to showmepatriot’s (46) post, it’s not funny at all (although I know s/he doesn’t mean it in the ha-ha sense). It’s goddamn scary.
The ballpark footage of cheney CNN DIDN’T show. Apparently, his first pitch actually hit and killed a quail that had had the misfortune of flying into the stadium. Dead-eye Dick just has a knack…
http://www.bgladd.com/BYEBYE_Birdie.mpg
The fourth recently retired general in as many weeks has come out harshly against Dr. Strange-Rumsfeld.
They are encouraging active duty military to speak out against him.
Are these men outliers or is this the tip of the proverbial iceberg of collapsing support for Crumby Rummy?
-GSD
Christy: great report as usual. One small nit to pick, however:
I have no idea whether the folks at the DoD Office of Special Plans for Iraq ever communicated this report to the President, or whether it was buried to hide evidence of their own failures along with that of the pro-war faction within the CIA that lapped up all the Curveball nonsense it could find.
The office of special plans didn’t need to hide evidence of their “failure” it was their success in lying us into a war that they had to hide. Kwiatoski and others have made clear that the OSP was specifically created to come up with false intel that was too shitty for the CIA to use to justify this war.
It wasn’t a failure but a deliberate set of lies that got us into this war.
Also, why don’t we do as Pheonix girl says and call our congresscritters to tell them no war with Iran.
The coup can’t happen fast enough.
it is generally acknowledged Israel already has several hundred nuclear weapons – and has possessed them for 40 years. South Africa produced five but dismantled them at the end of the apartheid regime – they are nuke-free nowadays. Brazil and Argentina have both been poking around at it for years now.
Switzerland seriously considered developing its own atomic bombs in the 1950s but after a cost/benefits analysis abandoned the project in the early ’60s. Nukes aint cheap!
There are many ways to look at the Iran issues. How many years, how many centrifuges, how much radiation, mow many troops, etc. The most frustrating part of it to me is the way that the “public diplomacy” has been handled. I don’t understand why we should really expect any other countries to deal with us rationally when our “diplomacy” consists of telling them to get on their knees, eat the crumbs we give them, and do whatever we tell them to do. I would call that the “opposite of diplomacy”. Does Iran feel safe with a 100,000+ person force of US soldiers building huge bases/airfields next door? Does Iran feel respected when Condi runs all over the world giving press conferences in which she lays out exactly what kind of weapons or energy program Iran is allowed to have? I’m not sticking up for Iran, but I don’t think we give them a lot of say in our weapons or energy programs!
Never in my life have I seen a group of people like the Bush administration, in whom a little humility would be so appropriate and so welcome, but is so absent. It just ain’t right.
peace,
jim
So, if I die in George Bush’s holy war, does that make me a Christian martyr? Remember when Pope Urban got everyone to go on the first crusade and promised them all the kingdom of heaven if they died in the cause? Well, since Bush is the leader of the U.S., and I am a U.S. citizen, do I get grandfather’d into the martyrdom?
Just wondered.
Maybe I’ll rent “Night of the Generals” while I’m waiting……..
One thing that has been bothering this morning me about my call to my Senators national security staffers yesterday on Iran(copied below; I tried to link to it but that wouldn’t work).
Neither said, “Look, everyone understands this kind of action is insanity” or “This could never actually happen”, or “Everyone understands the consequences of a strike on Iran”, or even “This is fantasy land speculation”. The most either said was, “This administration has shown its incompetence over and over.”
In retrospect, I realize I was kind of hoping to get the tinfoil-hat wearer treatment on this one.
———————–
I spoke for quite some time to the national security staffers in both of my Senators’ (local) offices today concerning Iran. A little obfuscation as to whom was whom is deliberate.
I called with the following points on the Iran mess:
1. Pakistan
2. Did I mention Pakistan? As GSD said above, “The middle east will melt down badly—-picture the “Mohammed†protests on crack and meth.†There won’t be enough of Musharraf’s body left for DNA analysis, and Pakistan’s nuclear materials are just going to go loose.
3. Pakistan’s nuclear materials are exactly the sort one OBL might have a lot of interest in, were they to go loose.
4. Dud nuclear weapons can be traced back to their sources. Knowing this, a state such as Iran is simply not going to give a terrorist group nuclear weapons, for fear that a screwup would lead to daytime highs in Tehran in the 1000’s of degrees.
5. A nuclear-armed Iran is bad; even more so than a nuclear-armed North Korea. The alternatives right now may be worse. It is the governments’ job to responsibly pick out the smallest disaster.
6. It is being reported that the President is not hearing opposition to an attack. It is the responsibility of all Senators to make him starkly aware of how bad this is going to be.
7. Iran has started low enrichment; it is likely that weapons-grade anything is a long time off. Nothing irreversible is happening today, even though it does bring more urgency to the questions. Again, Senators must make sure the President hears the view that we don’t have to solve this in the next 24-48 hours.
Senator K’s office’s staffer was polite, had a rudimentary grasp of the technical issues (meaning, he had heard of plutonium), and listened closely. Much of what I said seemed new to him, but he seemed enthusiastic to take it up the chain of command.
Senator K’s office’s staffer was very good, had a clear understanding. In fairness, he cautioned me that much of what he said could not be construed as the Senator’s official position. But he said it was widely understood in Washington, though not much talked about publicly, that regime change in Pakistan was the single greatest threat to American security. It wasn’t clear to me he listened very closely to what I said (at one point he seemed to think I wanted us to undermine Pakistan) but I did feel like he clearly knew what was the right thing to do.
Dave 53,
My guess is that the administration wants to drive the price of oil up.
Since this was an easily predictable consequence of their actions, I think it must be a desired outcome.
Greg Palast claims to have documents showing that this is to enrich Bush’s oil buddies.
I see two alternative explanations.
The first is that they have better information on Peak Oil and want the price to go up now rather than later, to smooth out the blow. This is related to the “demand destruction” some were talking about a few days ago. My other idea is that the intent is to price China out of the oil market.. or at least slow down their demand curve for oil.
I don’t believe in the “madman” theory of rulers, generally speaking.
I don’t think Saddam was a madman, or Qadafi. I think they were rational actors. Unfortunately, Bush may be an actual madman, but he is not making the strategy—Cheney is.
Whatever Cheney is doing, it’s about oil, and apparently it’s designed to raise the price of oil.
BTW, I don’t think this scenarios involve any evil genius level competence…. I just see the administration rolling with the blows. I don’t see any serious evidence that they are concerned about civil war in Iraq—quite the opposite actually. Since civil war will keep the price of oil up, you have to wonder if its considered not such a bad outcome.
Prof. Foland,
I read your post yesterday, you did a righteous thing.
Jeff
Not a bad start to the WaPoo chat from their Peter Baker. He could have acknowledged the inaccurate reporting @ DeadEye, but at least he appears to have read our comments in their blog:
“Peter Baker: Good morning, everyone. The Nats have opened badly, the vice president got booed, Iran says it’s closer to the bomb, protesters are in the streets and Congress is off on spring break. Too much to chat about, not enough time, so let’s get started.”
Sorry all — I meant Southwest Asian states. Massive cold drugs this morning and too little coffee equals poor copyediting. Is fixed now.
PS Everyone knows this is insanity, but I don’t think anyone thinks it is not being contemplated….
I’ve said this time and again — “yee haw!” is not a foreign policy.
it is now. ok, it’s political strategery. but “what’s the difference?”
good post, i thought they were going to do iraq in the summer of 02 even before they rolled out the new product, and for a year now i’ve believed they would bomb iran. don’t know history, don’t know politics, not even all that up on literature, but i know how it ‘feels’.
even if they weren’t going to bomb, very sensitive, and intelligent diplomacy is critical in this matter, and we know that’s not going to happen.
For years I have been reading about the Bush administration’s rational for preemptive war, its claims to the mantle of global superiority as a (moral) nation state. The left, rightly and too easily, blasts large holes in this rational, pointing out failing after failing. Currently, we are debating the wisdom of Iran as the next front for Bush’s bellicose foreign policy. This has become my dark fear: the chaos, conflict and death of Iraq, and possibly Iran, are actually the goal. The neoconservative think tankers are millennialists. The me, the you, and the now doesn’t exist for these guys. They are working for 3006; they are willing to write off the 21st century; at least the one that includes us.
I would like to find a bright spot here, maybe even some humor. Recently, we all enjoyed watching Bush unravel as he was asked direct questions by a gathering of graduate students. His rambling answers, the idiotic mugging and giggles combined with his arrogance and impatience are truly disturbing. Increasingly, I get the impression that as he looks at his handpicked (or not) audience, he really doesn’t see people with lives, interests, values…they don’t register in his gaze. I really think he is running the clock down, halfheartedly performing as he waits for the next calamity, the next step in the millennial sequence.
Not to nitpick, but linking Pakistan and Afghanistan to Southeast Asia confuses too many people who don’t think about the map, who don’t know who sits next to whom, who is grouped with whom.
South Asia = India, roughly.
Southeast Asia = What was formerly known as Indochina (where we fought a ghastly war 30 years ago–nations like Cambodia, Viet Nam, Laos.
Southwest Asia = Pakistan and Afghanistan, squashed in between India and the Middle East.
I don’t doubt Iran is working towards a “nukular” capability; regardless of their hateful rhetoric, it all boils down to the fact that they’re scared shitless the U.S. is going to attack them at any moment, and they’re seeking the means with which to defend themselves. With all this talk in the media of our military’s nuclear option, it’s obvious Iran will want a bomb of their own.
Look at the so-called “Axis of Evil” – we’ve destroyed Iraq and caused a huge amount of strife, we’re threatening to bomb Iran; and you can make a reasonable bet that as soon as we launch a campaign against Iran, North Korea will attack and overrun the South. Because all our resources will be tied up in TWO wars we can’t win.
Oh, and let’s get ready to welcome back the draft. We won’t be able to count on enlistments to make up for the losses we’re sure to take.
I almost miss the ’80’s…I didn’t much like Reagan, but at least he wasn’t completely batshit crazy. This guy we got now, I think his tertiary brain syphilis has finally become active.
patrick 77, this reminds me of a question I had a few days ago.
I was wondering if there have been other promotions of military officers with crazy, milleniast ideas recently, besides Boykin—the general who can detect the influence of Satan in a satellite photo.
I’m guessing that if there really is a nuclear strike on Iran, it will be carried out by those who can be trusted, which should be the crazy end-timers.
Has anyone seen any commentary or remarks from Michael Scheuer since the Hersh story broke ?
I wonder if Scheuer is hiding in a bunker. He seems convinced that Bin laden is about to carry out a strike worse than 9/11 on the US.
Question:
I posted some links above (61).- I now noticed, next to my nick, it says my posting is awaiting moderation. What does that mean?
The WaPoo’s “news section” is firing back at Fred Hiatt in today’s online chat:
“Evanston, Ill.: Is The Post going to issue a retraction to the outrageous editorial “A Good Leak.”?
Some claimed that bloggers “highjacked” the comments section here. I disagree. Just because large numbers of people found this editorial outrageous and wanted to comment on it does not mean that the space was “highjacked.” Howard Kurtz just explained it as a difference of opinion. Yet this editorial was based on “facts” that were distorted or just downright lied about. (i.e. Joe Wilson claimed that Cheney’s office sent him to Iraq.)
So, I’d like to know what responsibility (if any) The Post feels to stick to the truth in its editorials, AND if they are going to issue a correction or an apology for that egregious editorial.
Peter Baker: You’ll have to ask the editorial section. I work in the news section and we have a very strict separation of operations.”
Yesterday, IIRC, Dan Balz really ducked Hiatt’s “Good Leak.”
According to the NYT, Iran’s uranium “quantities that the country has produced appear to ‎be minuscule, and the enrichment level announced today — 3.5 percent — would work ‎for producing power, not warheads.” ‎
To ignore this FACT while sensationalizing Iran’s uranium production plays into the ‎hands of the Bush Administration’s pernicious determination for world catastrophe, ‎mayhem, and anarchy. ‎
Someone did point out whether the new info on the nuking of Iran was a Rovian tactic or not. I felt that timing of the release of the info was not a Rovian/Bushco operation, but, I am reconsidering as to the actual story itself.
Of course the pre-vomited talking points that come from Fudgie “Mouth of Sauron” McLellan—”wild speculation”, picked-up and repeated by the mentally deficient, dry-drunk Big Father George W. Bush. Wild speculation may very well be pinpointedly accurate. So it is interesting the angle being used to answer the question.
But, it IS very interesting that the repsonse of Bushco is not to question the leaks themselves. We have seen the tactic to question the leak itself used often. “This leak has endangered our nation”…”this leak is letting the terrrrrrists know our game plan”…
This tactic has NOT been used to bat down the recently floated theory by Sy Hersh, that the US is planning on using nukes.
This does lead me to question whether we have some well planted stories by Bush/Rove and company to fuel the speculation.
-GSD
Spent last evening shouting at the television…my main question was, “are you media idiots going to fall for the same baloney you fell for last time, or are you going to hold this administration’s collective feet to the fire?â€
Pretty sure I wasn’t this polite, but that was the gist of it.
Can only hope that millions of people around the country are asking themselves, “Hmmm…he’s talking about diplomacy, but not ruling out military action; isn’t that what he was saying right before the Iraq war?â€
This time he has no Colin Powell to get in the way and demand silly things like actual proof. This time he has Condi “How High Do you want me to Jump?†Rice.
Ground war? They must have plans for a draft, too, because I don’t know how else they would be able to do it. No, wait…they’ll end up pulling almost all our people out of Iraq (they will declare victory, regardless of how fragile and unstable the country is) and within months (weeks?) will deploy them to Iran! Christmas will have them once again substituting mushroom clouds for sugarplums as the vision in all of our heads.
Nothing scares people more than the prospect of an enemy being capable of nuclear attack. And even though there will be a Herculean effort to counter the urgency that Bush will no doubt be claiming, people will respond out of fear.
The ONLY way this wrong-headed, misguided, disastrous, criminal plan will be short-circuited is to put Democrats in charge in Congress, assuming that Bush can keep his finger off the trigger that long.
I used to try to take the high road, and attach my negative feelings to the actions of those like Bush and Cheney, as opposed to the people themselves. Well, not only do I hate what these people do, but I am beginning to realize that what people do DOES say something about who they are, and my hatred is starting to attach to the people. If that makes me a Bush-hater, all I can say is there’s lots to hate.
Great analysis GSD! Makes a lot of sense.
ceci at 85 — If you post a comment that has more than two links in it, Jane and I have to manually approve the comment before it gets posted to everyone else. It’s a spam preventative we had built-in to the software.
Excepted from DailyKos white house learker story
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/12/24219/8100
Democracy as a government relies upon the ability of factions to compromise on divisive issues through rational debate instead of violence. The current political power brokers have figured out how to short circuit this process by focusing national attention on issues which are based on differences of non-negotiable, irrational moral sentiment*cough*abortion*cough*, and are thus not subject to resolution through rational reconciliation. They’ve broken democracy.
OT question,
I just checked out the DOJ website. Were those March affadavits from Fitz and Comey there yesterday? I see two “exhibits” files and a 2005 Fitz affadavit there today that I don’t recall seeing yesterday. Am I crazy? If not, what would be the underlying purpose in putting those out there now?
Rayne #55
It’s mesmerizing.
Either an absolutely stupendous imagination, or I hope he/she is distributing all this from an internet cafe somewhere, paying cash.
bah need to review closer before submitting, that was ‘leaker’ story, and should have added, italics, *cough* and emphasis mine, on posting #92.
it’s been over 15 years since the demise of the USSR and “The Evil Empire” and the Cold War. Absolute fear of nuclear weapons is fading – although Russia maintains thousands. Younger folk don’t have the drilled-in fear of “atom bombs”. Many assume a bunker-buster is just a special kind of explosive that only aims its blast downwards into the earth…
It’s a case-hardened thermonuclear weapon that survices an air-dropped impact and burrows only a couple of feet [sic!] into the ground before it explodes. Usually nukes are exploded in the air to maximize the blast radius but “bunkerbusters” detonate just below ground to maximize blast effects upon the dirt. It still kicks up one hell of a radioactive blast of dirt and makes quite a crater!
Dr. ElBaradei is in Tehran now. He and Hans Blix were working furiously on Iraq before bushco decided to shock and awe instead of exerting full inspections and diplomacy. He is hated by the admin and one John Bolton. He told the truth about Iraq and may be our best hope to tell the truth about Iran. But people need to remember who is and how he was maligned by bushco.
from NYT editorial after he and the IAEA were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize 2005:
Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, infuriated the Bush administration a few years ago by challenging its baseless claims that Iraq was preparing to resume nuclear weapons work. It turns out that Dr. ElBaradei can also be usefully outspoken about real nuclear dangers.
By defaulting on its commitment to nuclear arms reduction and winking at nuclear-armed allies, like India, Pakistan and Israel, that remain outside the nonproliferation treaty, Washington makes it harder to build an international consensus against programs like Iran’s and to discourage other countries from following Tehran’s dangerous example.
Ms. Smith, I liked your article. My own belief is that, within the bowels of the WH an airstrike on Iran is already a done deal. I don’t think there is ANY serious debate, dissent, counter-arguments on the issue. The only slight discussion would be on scope of the air attacks.
As to whether to use nuclear weapons against Iran, I don’t really think that’s going to happen. Hersh is probably accurate on his reporting, but his reporting is simply that the WH refuses to take the nuclear option off the planning table. Why? Well, I think that, in the minds of the WH, “they” think that keeping such an option on the table is an “important negotiating tool”…something to use as a leverage or tool to “scare” Iran into submission. Oh, I consider such thinking to be at best, a Kindergarden level of strategic planning…but there you go.
The ONLY item which I think causes the WH many sleepless nights is trying to figure out how to “gin up” publicly acceptable reasons for a air strike. (actually, I think if we strike Iran, it would be a series of air strikes over 3-5 days, but anyway…) The WH is pissed as it knows it cannot use the “Iraq template” as same is now tattered to shreds. So, the WH struggles and struggles with HOW to create some facts, palatable to mainstream America, to justify air strikes. Again, the air strikes themselves are already a “done deal”. Watch for ALL SORTS of trial balloons to be floated.
We’ve heard a FEW words on “regime change”. Yesterday’s enrichment news is helpful to this WH. Perhaps we’ll hear some things about chemicals, biologics? Perhaps some chatter about Iranian terrorists? How Iran is funding bad people? Look for all sorts of little news items…these are all designed to try and find some traction. And so it goes. Ghostman
It is past time for the grown-ups to step in and have the talk — and it is time for the President to be forced to act Presidential.
There’s a word for this: Adult Foreign Policy.
Experience, maturity, multilateralism, dynamism, multifaceted approaches to fluid problems. Think Gary Hart, Madeline Albright, and the Powell Doctrine. Think about a vision for American engagement with the rest of the world that doesn’t involve invasion, bombing, and nuclear brinkmanship. Think about putting some adults in the executive branch…
Immanetize–
I’d make only a small footnote. Plutonium is in many ways the preferred material for state-controlled devices. You need less, it weighs less, various advantages. And as you say, it is difficult to weaponize. There was a slightly confusing report on NPR this morning, which conflated the point with uranium.
The Iranian nuclear program is pursuing both plutonium and uranium. The uranium produced so far is low-enriched (i.e. not useful for a weapon), and there’s not much of it.
Uranium is completely trivial to weaponize once it’s highly enriched. The Hiroshima weapon was uranium, and it was not even tested beforehand because it just can’t fail. (The Trinity test was of the plutonium weapon.) I simply don’t know which would take longer for Iran: to produce a sufficient quantity of highly enriched uranium followed by a very short weaponization program (measured, if need be, in weeks to months), or to produce a sufficient quantity of plutonium followed by a long weaponization program. Either program is surely measured in years as a total, but weaponizing uranium is just not that hard.
Which is why Pakistan matters. For “non-state actors”: they want uranium. Even if they get only the material core, without the full weapon, even non-state actors can weaponize uranium. And Pakistan’s program is uranium as far as is well-known. We really, really, really don’t want any of that loose.
Hey, what happened with Lieberman since he got home? Was he asked about Iran?
What a pickle we are in.
It’s obvious that these people are out of control – both in moral terms and in political reality. They’ve erected a shield against moral persuation by their twisting and distorting the ideology of their religion; they’ve destroyed the system of political accountability established in this country by their lies and their refusal to carry out the responsiblities and obligations of their positions in the system.
It’s entirely possible that an overwhelming majority of people could be opposed to this administration’s policies, and there would be no change at all in their thinking and actions. I would even say that that’s entirely likely – can you imagine Rove changing his mind because ordinary people thought he was wrong? Can you imagine Bush governing without Rove?
How do we change this? I hate to be so pessimistic but it’s hard for me to see a way to somewhere different without gathering and exercising the same kind of power that these guys are using – force and control, not debate and agreement. I think a strong motivation for creating the political system we have had was to establish a process for governing that would preclude the damage and destruction that the free exercise of unbridled power always entails.
This craziness towards Iran makes the slow change difficult if not impossible – the slow change being creating consensus, gathering coalitions, the usual approach to political activism. Undoubtedly this is in their calculations; by the time any political weight – serious political weight – is gathered they’re most of the way down the road. Down the road that we don’t want to follow, ever.
How do we change this without further destroying our political system, not to mention our civil society? The sour taste of Vietnam is still with us, you know, after 30 years. Is there another way, other than throwing a wrench into the system? Please? Anyone?
Marky (24, 73) and Daveminnj (54)
Suggesting that the BC administration’ Middle East policy is to try to drive up the price of oil may be giving them too much credit. Another probable explanation is their already-demonstrated inability to think one or more moves ahead regardless of what they do.
Also, in American Theocracy Kevin Phillips builds a pretty good case that American policy in the Middle East has been all about oil since World War II, if not before. It just hasn’t been overtly so, but rather wrapped in various high-minded-sounding disguises.
Odds and ends:
I forget which of the Manhattan team said it, but when the test ban treaty was signed, he advocated an exemption for the following:
Every 5 years the leaders of the world would be brought to some remote place. There they would be forced to strip to their under wear, and a Hydrogen bomb would be detonated. He said that this would be nessary so they all could be reminded of what we are talking about. I fear that much of the world sees these things a just a bigger bang.
I know we’re talking about fission, not fusion weapons, but I’ve always liked that story.
One other factoid:
The B-29 was built to carry the bomb, other wise the thing was worthless. That project was twice the cost of the Manhattan project.
Continuing reflection on the ‘white house leaker’ linked to at #56. This comment resonates.
This country, just like any big ship, will right itself. The fact that things are still great despite this massive corruption is a very encouraging sign. It means that our inherrent resources and placement in the world are so great that this waste at the top isn’t hurting us.
This reflects an informed and determined optimism that the ‘corrupted’ ship of state, will right itself. This is an admirable sentiment, and one which I hope is true. However the analogy fails to consider that not all ships right themselves.
Another floated the interesting theory about the nuclear speculation. ‘They can’t be THAT crazy to use nukes’…..allows for a “whew” factor when the US chooses to “only” use conventional weapons on Iran.
“See, we walked back to the rational decision and only launched a massive conventional bombing campaign. So if the Iranians respond, THEY are the lunatics.”
-GSD
Is it conceivable that the rest of the world will get together and vote the USA off the planet?
Let’s see if I’m up to speed: The messianic President of the US is considering nuking Iran if they continue their efforts to generate nuclear power (and, presumably, nuclear weapons). The messianic President of Iran seems hellbent on continuing those efforts. So we have a right-wing Christian nutcase with 12,000 nukes facing off against a right-wing Muslim nutcase who thinks that he has a right to be in the same club.
Did I miss anything?
Any word on when the next Fitz grenade is going to be lobbed?
“However the analogy fails to consider that not all ships right themselves.
It also fails to conclude the fact that a ship doesn’t stay afloat forever. They hit icebergs, get torpedoed, run into “perfect storm” and some are eventually mothballed due to old age.
-GSD
Daniel Di Rito (25) and Sophist (64)
Regarding a possible Israeli attack on Iran, a week or so ago I saw a post somewhere to the effect that they don’t have the wherewithall to project power that far in today’s environment. It’s considerably further than was the Iraq reactor they hit in 1980, the targets are widely dispersed, they don’t have sufficient in-air refueling capability to support a large enough force while avoiding hostile territory, and the owner of the primary piece of such territory, Saudi Arabia, now has sufficient capability (F-15s & F 16s, Patriots, etc.) to take a significant toll if they overfly. Unfortunately I don’t recall where I saw this but at the time it seemed to come from an authoritative source.
If this is the case, it lends credence to Israel’s urging the Iran attack forward, as Sophist suggests.
The foreign policy of our nation has never been so bereft of dialogue and diplomacy. I am not talking about threatening sanctions and calling names– those are sticks I have no faith in. Because no carrots are out there– it is: do it our way or the highway.
We don’t talk to Iran or North Korea. WHAT? WHY?
How much sense does that make? None. It is as though a marriage is falling apart and there are 12 kids suffering from neglect because the parents do not work toward a resolution and some semblance of harmony. Nobody wins and the dependents are the ones to pay the highest price. The husband and wife continue to verbally abuse, threaten and dominate each other– rather than agree to move on as parents and not as a married couple. Responsible to their children and not their pride. This may be a silly analogy.
bushco continues to exhibit a breathtaking failure of imagination and profound rigidity that threatens the world.
Today’s NY Times print edition (can’t find it on line) had a beautiful photo of Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announcing their completion of pilot fuel cycle production. He was at a podium in front of a spacious backdrop of sky, doves, and the UN’s IAEC flag. The text was something like, “we certainly are entitled to domestic atomic energy”. No jumpsuit, though. Lovely bit of political theater, reminds me of something…what could it be?
“Did I miss anything?”
One man, Ahmadinejad, feels that the rays of God’s light shone upon him when he addressed the UN.
The other, Bush, feels that rays of God’s light are on the rug that his wife designed, that rug currently lays on the floor of the Oval Office.
Other than that, you got things wrapped-up well.
-GSD
Just above, Mr. Frank Probst actually hits a nail on the head. We saw the same mess with Iraq. Saddam is/was a megalomaniac, and so it was more important to him to tweak the nose of America than to just think rationally. Saddam’s infantile strutting around fed right into the hands of Bush.
This guy running Iran (his name begins with an “A”, but too hard for me to spell), is doing just the same thing. He is more concerned with doing the “na na na na na na” thing with Bush, rather than running his country wisely. That nonsense from yesterday (the films of women dancing around with vials of uranium…good grief!)….that plays right into the hands of Bush and his soon-to-come scare tactics to the American people. Just you watch. Yep….two nutcases, divided by religion, but united by their fanaticism. Ghostman
Just checked things out on the slimy right. I had hoped that one of our possible trolls was simply mentally ill–some of the long rants lean in that direction. Instead I think I just have to stop drinking Constant Comment tea. Pity. Funniest when using little Latin phrases as code, as if their people are the only ones who know this language. Hoc Voleurunt indeed.
egregious — Ah, but Constant Comment tea can be lovely if you have a sore throat. *g* Had some this morning…
Forgot to recommend Kipling to Bushco. If the preznit really got to talk with Blair instead of basking in the limpid pools of his eyes, he might have gotten an earful of British colonial history. Nasty stuff, that. BTW, the once- or twice-removed immigrants known as the Republican conservative brown-person-deprecators might well read “Gunga Din”. They are better (the ‘Din-bats’–if we are ‘moonbats’ then maybe these aspiring Americans could have a name, and I propose Dinbat with all respect), you know, chock full of ‘Merkin Family Values, not a mean bone in their bodies, really. The more I read, the more I believe we need them as citizens.
There is no doubt that this administration is planning a premptive war in Iran. This government knows full well that the majority of citizens disagree with its militancy, yet they persist. They disemble, they lecture. They create chaos everyday and keep the public at each others throats.
It reminds me of the add with the man who falls in quicksand and the guy in charge talks his group through the process of how to approach the situation. Meanwhile, the guy is over his head in quicksand with just his arms visible. Finally someone steps up and throws him a rope to grab onto. We need someone to throw us a rope. Otherwise we will still be talking this through when the bombs drop on Iran.
Has the administration even considered working with Iran to resolve their energy problems? Have they always just assumed a belligerent oppostion? Wouldn’t it make more sense to form a coalition to help Iran design programs that will solve their problems without devolving into neanderthralic posturing?
VJB #113, is this the pic you meant?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/inte…..94,00.html
GSD (88): This does lead me to question whether we have some well planted stories by Bush/Rove and company to fuel the speculation.
Well, I heard a Hersh interview in the past couple of days where he talked about his sources, and said that there were insiders he contacted, not that contacted him, and others who he has long experience with. I think the Bushies are trying to play this to their advantage, but I don’t think it was a plant; I don’t think Hersh is that easily spun.
Sophist (95), GSD (110) — I was thinking of the Titanic and the Andrea Doria when I read that bit…in some ways, the commentary is so naive that it must be true.
Sad. A massive oceanliner, broken up and sunk by a man whacked out of his mind on Zoloft, unable to see it sinking as it is swallowed by the waves…
BobbyG (60) — my BS-o-Meter didn’t arc out, for the reason above…there was too much in there that rang true, although I think somebody has a MAJOR bone to pick with Tom Ridge, and a slightly smaller one with Cheney. (The hydrogen peroxide rings true since oral infections are anathema to cardiac patients, but he must be swigging a prepared blend and not H2O2 straight…)
Daveminnj (63) — sincerely, my apologies, I didn’t mean for you to aspirate your breakfast. I thought I was going to blow coffee all over my laptop.
Susan in Iowa (94) — it was very entertaining; whoever wrote it has a gift, even if it might be a gag. But the part of me that clings to denial was a little more scared than entertained…
Is it too late to bring the TE Lawrence map of the Middle East to fruition? The Brits ignored Lawrence (as in “Lawrence of Arabia”) with regards to his proposed map for the Middle East which “provides an alternative to present-day borders in the region, taking into account local Arab sensibilities rather than the European colonial considerations that were dominant at the time.”
Have a look at http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=4967572
WE change things by bypassing the corporate owned media shills passing for “truth” these days. The net is one way.
WE change things by PROTESTING IN NUMBERS in the street – like the persistent, LARGE immigration protests.
In FRANCE, leadership backed down from their attack on younger workers – because of the persistent, LARGE protests.
WE THE PEOPLE protested before and during this illegal war. We must do it with MORE people and MORE often.
Congresscritters don’t appear to listen to phone calls and letters.
When people are out there, again and again, BEFORE the Nov. elections – they have to listen.
Time to walk away from the keyboard – and start walking down the street!
————
The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves.: William Hazlitt (1778-1830)
Ghostman (115): This guy running Iran (his name begins with an “Aâ€, but too hard for me to spell), is doing just the same thing. He is more concerned with doing the “na na na na na na†thing with Bush, rather than running his country wisely.
I don’t think so; I’d recommend reading Juan Cole about the hardliners’ situation in Iran if you haven’t. Remember, it’s not all about us; Ahmadinejad has a domestic side to things, too (as did Saddam when he was in charge of Iraq.) His nose-thumbing, just like Bush’s Iraq warmongering in 2002/03, is doing far more for his support at home in the near term than “running his country wisely” would. But since neither leader appears to have the knowledge or inclination to run their country wisely, demagoguery is all they have to fall back on to prop themselves up.
orcatjf (120): Has the administration even considered working with Iran to resolve their energy problems?
In a word, no. When Bush says “all options are on the table,” he neglects to mention that Iran is seeking direct talks, and he refuses to negotiate with them.
Billmon says it best:
http://billmon.org/archives/002375.html
(”Mutually Assured Dementia”)
Well…I’ld say Billmon has answered my question. The USA would not be held accontable.
So sad.
93 jbalazs – I don’t check it often enough to say, but I would guess that someone has gotten a moment to try to do some ketchup and so they are putting up some of their filings. After the bombshell, the site has probably received more hits.
Sophist 105 – as much as I would like to believe in the big ship analogy too, it seems that the few things that have served to check the runaway have stemmed, not as much from the intrinsic strength of the system, but from a few, tough people. The tendency of so many to “run to the tilt” without a thought has been scarey.
Anne @ 89. omg, the “permanent” bases in Iraq that we “dont really need” are the jumping off point for the attack on Iran! no need to bring the boys all the way back home when Iran is right next door. can you say “road trip?”
The evangelicals must be happy as can be..Armageddon here we come!!! yippe yi yo!!! as we mimic Dr. Strangelove’s Slim Picken’s ride down on a bomb to an Iranian target.Or are there republican statesman in the congress??
If not, lets hear a continuing shameful, ringing republican goosestep for our glorious buffoon of a president.
thank you christy, thank you. i am very very worried. we cannot let this get buried behind our domestic issues. veyr worried
One passage fromt he Hersh article that I haven’t seen highlighted anywhere is this:
******
In recent weeks, the President has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of Congress, including at least one Democrat. A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, who did not take part in the meetings but has discussed their content with his colleagues, told me that there had been “no formal briefings,†because “they’re reluctant to brief the minority. They’re doing the Senate, somewhat selectively.â€
The House member said that no one in the meetings “is really objecting†to the talk of war. “The people they’re briefing are the same ones who led the charge on Iraq.
******
Can anyone say “Lieberman”?????
One passage taken from the Hersh article that hasn’t gotten much attention caught my eye:
****
In recent weeks, the President has quietly initiated a series of talks on plans for Iran with a few key senators and members of Congress, including at least one Democrat. A senior member of the House Appropriations Committee, who did not take part in the meetings but has discussed their content with his colleagues, told me that there had been “no formal briefings,†because “they’re reluctant to brief the minority. They’re doing the Senate, somewhat selectively.â€
The House member said that no one in the meetings “is really objecting†to the talk of war. “The people they’re briefing are the same ones who led the charge on Iraq.
****
Can anyone say “Lieberman”??
Sorry for the double post, I got an error message and the first post did not appear intially so I posted again. My bad!
My latest rant to the papers:
The President is reported to be determined to now attack Iran. Is this all a big game of international “chicken?” It is just Bush administration tactical “disinformation” as part of that game?
Or are we ALL now on “Flight 93?” And, if so, do we all simply do as we are told and stay in our seats?