
(Tonight’s guest poster is Red Dan who uncovered Ben Domenech’s identity on RedState as "Augustine")
Let’s delve into the writings of one of the motivators and founders of a site that, until recently paraded “Collaborative Republicanism for the Masses” as their masthead…up until the point that the GOP brand (or perhaps the RedState brand?) was so tainted that the catchphrase was changed to “Conservative News and Community."
Tacitus, a.k.a Josh Trevino, who of late has been rushing about defending and bolstering his friend Ben “Augustine” Domenech’s tattered reputation (including declaring that he has no respect for honor codes – a startling admission for someone who spends an inordinate amount of time talking about honor)…is apparently a cleverer sort than some of his more loudmouthed brethren.
Josh, you see, is far too urbane to go around blabbing his secret fantasies about folks closer to home – unlike some of the swamp-things previously cited on these pages. (Well, except when he gets all hot and bothered enough to reiterate his friend Ben “Augustine” Domenech’s smears of the King family):
…all these un-conservative things were deeply-held beliefs of Martin Luther King. Add in the rest. Add in the evidence already discussed; add in his involvement with causes like the Poor People’s Campaign; add in the promotion of public-employee unions he was engaged in when he died; and add in his personal failings. He was a plagiarist. He was a base philanderer. He was a willing transmitter of Communist and defeatist memes in one of our nation’s darker hours. He was a regular columnist for The Nation.
But back to the main point – Josh does not often come out of the closet when referring to Americans, English-speakers, or neighbors: It’s too risky, it opens him and his allies to broad and withering fire from all sides (Liberals and other humans aghast at such putrid views, and others who might agree, but do NOT want such views aired in public – I call them the “shhhh” crowd.)
No, Josh is an expert at externalizing the rage, and blaming an “other” that is far removed from most folks’ experience, speaks a different language, and worships a different deity. Once demonized through carefully filtered selections and carefully amplified instances, that “other” provides the basis and the excuse to justify any number of “gedankenexperments” up to and including meandering bloviations about genocide…read on, you’ll see. An analysis of Trevino/Tacitus’ “contributions” reveals a component of racist demagoguery that has so far not been addressed: Islam, Arabs, and non-Christians. Our Friend Josh and his pals want a holy war, and they want it bad. Really bad. The enemy is identified! The Saracens are on the march!
Tacitus, unplugged, or is it unhinged:
Lovely people, keeping alive the grand tradition of lynching and all. What is it with folks in this part of the world and the frenzied public desecration of dead bodies? Mogadishu, Ramallah, and now Mosul. Alive and well alongside slavery, female genital mutilation, and religious apartheid in places populated mostly by….well, here we go again with the Islam versus culture versus "it’s all exaggerated" versus "the Tamils do it too" arguments…. Barbarous savages.
Well, the first instance used as an excuse for labeling an entire people “barbarous savages” turned out to be a false alarm. But not to worry, Holy Warriors! The phrase is easily typed and its utility has no expiration date:
Just curious — can I call them barbarous savages now? Well, no matter. I absolutely do. This is who we’re fighting, folks. If you don’t think there’s a direct connection between terrorism, culture, and barbaric scenes like this, think again.
Appeasers are among us, and we call them Dhimmi! Bush is a Dhimmi! crossposted at RedState Racists Think So TOO!
I have argued many times that the President’s most egregious and damaging lie, the carping of partisans notwithstanding, was the one he told in apparent sincerity: that "Islam is peace." […] Sensible people admit that this nation is, ultimately, at war with Muslim orthodoxy, not in whole, but in large part: the social place of Islam according to its traditional theology, and the impetus to jihad and the imposition of dhimmitude thereof, are the insurmountable obstacles to lasting peace between the Muslim world and the rest of humanity. One of two things will bring about that peace. Either Muslims will embrace something more broadly pluralistic and, yes, private — or we as a society will capitulate. Actually, that’s not entirely true. There is a third thing that will bring about peace: genocide. […] …there’s a reason Muslim terrorists run amok across the globe while Methodist and Hasidim bombers do not.
He’s brave enough to criticize Dear Leader, demonize a billion people, and contemplate genocide, all in the same piece of writing. Dhimmis infest the governments of Europe, the Media, and everywhere else! And then there is Tacitus/Trevino’s extended series on “Dhimmitude” which includes:
Barbarian hordes are destroying France!!!
For the ninth night, the cities of France burn. The nation of Charles Martel and the men of Tours suffers the blows of the enemy it once turned back from Europe’s heart. So it comes to pass that insurrection spreads, destruction and havoc reign, and the very elderly are burned alive at the hands of the jihadists of the Fifth Republic. […] Indeed, the Muslim rebellion in France is hardly the first — nor the last — example of jihadist barbarism in modern Europe. […] Islam is truly the enduring challenge of and to European identity.
The citadel of Christendom is burning!!!
It is the tenth night of the intifada in France …. As the battles drag on, their insurrectionary character becomes ever more stark. It is no longer a question of a few Parisian suburbs: every community in France with a significant Muslim population, “from Rouen in Normandy to Bordeaux in the southwest to Strasbourg near the German border,” is under threat.
And so it comes to this. Having expended sufficient rage on the symbols of their enemies, the still-irate masses of Islam move on to the enemies themselves. I have already noted whom they perceive those enemies to be: Christians now join the hated Jews as bêtes noirs of the Presidentially-sanctioned religion of peace. That the mass of despised may not identify as Christians — and in Europe this may be particularly true — is wholly irrelevant to the offended hordes. The West is a Christian entity, and Westerners are products of the Christian heritage.
Note that Enchiridion Militis has an entire section devoted to “Dhimmitude” and the capitulation of western governments and media to the hated enemy – Islam! I think that the site should be named Christian Warriors on the Web, but its name is taken from Erasmus’ Handbook for the Christian Soldier, or The Manual of the Christian Knight, and it is a creation of RedState founder Josh Trevino, who sums up the basic thrust of the site as follows:
This we hold: That we are of the West, that its culture matters, that its faith matters, that humanity matters, and that these things are worth defending: and that when we abandon these things, the enemy rushes in to fill the void. Founded by Joshua Treviño in 2006.
and is host to many RedState front-pagers and editors…have a look – it ain’t pretty. Christendom, Unite! To Arms! The Mussulmen are nigh!
The theme continues at “Spot-on”
We care about Europe out of common interest: its enemy is ours. We have seen that enemy at work of late…. What to call that enemy is a conundrum all its own. Some would have it that the foe is political Islam; others a radical Islam; others a national or cultural stridency in which Islam is merely an incidental tool; still others a false Islam. Certainly we can say what it is not: it is neither the infantile, sanitized faith touted by the shallow minds of the present Administration; nor is it the innocently beleaguered victim of its dhimmi-minded predecessor. And certainly we can say who, if not what, threatens us: people who identify as Muslim, and are prepared to do violence to that end.
So…where does this leave us (other than with a bad taste in the mouth and imagery of Josh Trevino sitting at his keyboard wearing a suit of armor and fantasizing about the recapture of Malta, or whatever)?
By demonizing the “other” either at home (as has been so deftly dealt with by the superstars who preceded me in this series) or abroad, the partisans and activists of the Right – the GOP, the Conservatives, the “Libertarians,” their fellow travelers, and their useful idiots – have devised a means of pushing regressive policy by selective targeting of (it must be coincidental) Brown, Black, and Non-Christian people upon whom can be heaped blame for any failures of Dear Leaders, excoriation for any ills suffered by American (white) society, and hatred for all that is not perfect in the lives of these small, contemptible people.
Do you want to cut welfare? Go after black and brown single mothers!! Do you want to destroy Federal infrastructure, emergency programs, relief for disasters, or aid for rebuilding? Katrina got you down and making your Boy King look like an utterly incompetent fool? Looters! Shoot the Looters! And then there’s that whole Mayor Nager thing… Do you want to justify and promote vigilantism and beef up budgets for cracker-ridden “security forces” in the Southwest? How about some pictures of Mexicans, Central and South Americans coupled with a few choice “wetback” insults and pseudo-academic “analyses” of labor and immigration!
But if you want to beef up the President’s stature, rescue the Neocons from their own stupidity, justify massive military budgets, war without end, and engage in Risktm-inspired imperialist fantasies about encircling China and controlling the world’s petroleum reserves? May I suggest you snap a few pics of irate, turbaned, swarthy folks in far lands… couch it all in the “culture war” ethos, add a few hefty dashes of Christian Dominionism and Opus Dei-inspired whackjobbery about clashes of civilizations and “Dar al Islam” and…VOILA! Instant Holy War, a few victories in the polls, and a clean slate to slash taxes, gut federal programs, eviscerate governmental oversight, and trash the constitutional checks and balances on executive power.
And at the root? Racism, fear of the other, and abhorrent justifications of any and every bloody excess simply out of hatred, ignorance, and steroidally-enhanced triumphalism more appropriate to the 13th century than today.
Previous posts in the series:
Right Wing Racism: Steve Sailer by Armando
Educating Wolfie by Pam Spaulding
Let’s Go Real Far Right… by Matt Stoller
Tramsmitting Extremism by David Neiwert
The Fork in the Road — The Right and Race Online by Steve Gilliard
Late Night FDL: A Thin Candy-Coat of Legitimacy by TBogg
What Lies Beneath by Matt O.
Breaking The Code by Digby
Matt O. has also been compiling racist quotes from right-wing websites over at The Great Society.
Related posts:
- The One Where Erick Erickson Brags about How Tolerant of Dissenting Opinions RedState Is
- Saddam Interrogation: US Still Trying to Show 9/11 Connection as Late as Mid-2004
- RedState Blogger, Trying to Demonstrate Sotomayor is Stupid, Fails Reading Comprehension
- RedState Fundraising Drive for Wingnut Senatorial Candidates: Epic Fail
- Late Night: Bachmann Terror Overdrive





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Monty Python! sorry ;) going back to read now.
Saladin!
[picturing the subject garbed appropriately, prancing around, shouting, “We are the Knights of KNEE! KNEE!]
Heh.
in downtown Indianapolis I recently saw a woman with a handbag bearing the slogan: Remember 732 ! I politlely asked her if it referred to Charles Martel and the Battle of Tours. She was astounded a stranger on the street would know. She told me folk need to remember Western Civilization’s decisive battle in light of 9/11. I was for once speechless.
I just have to say Fitz!
Dan thanks so much. That thread the other night where all the LGFers showed up and were desperate to provide an intellectual rational for their sentiments was fascinating. I left a lot of comments up that I would normally cut if they appeared in the middle of another thread because I found them quite illuminating.
It appears much of the hatred of the extreme right for Islamic extremists is because they are looking in the mirror. Your post really shows that the rhetoric is interchangeable. Thanks for doing all the dumpster diving.
NOw that was a thorough and needed addition to this series.
Precisely these holy war arguments soiled the end of the last part of this series, as the winger trolls came here to disrupt and to defend themselves.
Jane I was thinking the exact same thing. Without consulting you, I left them up, too, for the same reason.
Red Dan, thanks, great post. IIRC, Josh Trevino and then Tacitus commented here right after Xerox Ben “resigned.” He had the same the same flowery writing style that you quote here. It’s people like Xerox Ben and Tacitus who keep the Iranians committed to nukes.
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…../07/144207
Murray Waas interview in which he says he thinks Bush may try and close down the Fitzgerald investigation by Iran Contra-style shenanigans. I’m pretty sure he’ll try this after the elections, but with simple perjury charges he’s going to struggle. I’m beginning to think Fitzgerald has done our side a great favour by only charging Libby with minor charges. They have the best chance of making it to a trial. And we’ve always got the Wilson civil suit to fall back on. :)
Kudos on a great post Red Dan– wow, this hits em where it should hurt. Wake up other 38%– we are losing our Republic and our humanity. Other empires have fallen… so all who believe in our supremacy and our dear leader should pay particular attention.
this is priceless:
‘But if you want to beef up the President’s stature, rescue the Neocons from their own stupidity, justify massive military budgets, war without end, and engage in Risktm-inspired imperialist fantasies about encircling China and controlling the world’s petroleum reserves? May I suggest you snap a few pics of irate, turbaned, swarthy folks in far lands… couch it all in the “culture war†ethos, add a few hefty dashes of Christian Dominionism and Opus Dei-inspired whackjobbery about clashes of civilizations and “Dar al Islam†and…VOILA! Instant Holy War, a few victories in the polls, and a clean slate to slash taxes, gut federal programs, eviscerate governmental oversight, and trash the constitutional checks and balances on executive power.
And at the root? Racism, fear of the other, and abhorrent justifications of any and every bloody excess simply out of hatred, ignorance, and steroidally-enhanced triumphalism more appropriate to the 13th century than today.’
thank you so much…
What’s with these wingers and their pompous handles? “Tacitus”? “Augustine”? Do they have members named “Fellatio” and “Flatulus” as well? “Biggus Dickus”?
Pachacutec,
Rather than EPU myself, I thought I would just comment here. In re your post on the previous thread about not just ignoring the crappy media but holding their feet to the fire, I agree. I commented earlier tonight that I no longer expect anything worthwhile to come out of the WaPooPoo. But that does not mean that I think we should just ignore them and let them get away with BS unchallenged. Was it Ronald Dumbsfeld who once said, “you go to war with the media you have, not the media you wish you had?”
interestingly enough, the globalization of clothing styles is making foreigners look less foreign. it used to be that rioting overseas was done by brown folk in weird clothes or robes and funny turbans. Nowadays Adidas is ubiquitous and the rioters wear Yankees baseball caps. In the recent Immigration Marches, you didnt see sombreros and serapes!
Good job on the CHeney booing story, Jane. E&P “What Game Were They At?”
http://www.editorandpublisher……1002315663
These late night guest blogs are so good for us.
I am increasingly swamped by my blog addiction. How do I cut back? Digby? No! Aravosis? No! Brad deLong? Never!
So you are getting the best of the blogosphere to come to us who are afraid to go out to a new site lest we become addicted.
Thanks, guys. You’re the best.
Jane–
I’m married, you’re married, but still: will you marry me? I’m just askin’.
But seriously: what I love (or, rather, “love”) about these frothers is their dependable ornate tone. “This we hold”–who writes this with a straight face? Ans: the most repressed, the most geeky of the pencil-necked schlubs who seethed when they couldn’t get a date in high school while they knew they were smarter than the studs who did. It wasn’t fair and now’s their chance for revenge.
Still, where does this tone (”And so it comes to this..”) come from? Why, from the past (scratch a “conservative,” get a fantasist who knows he *really would have been a hero* back when men were men and sublimation was prized and not thought “symptomatic.” Just as the conservative wit’s model is H.L. Mencken (who would have given these twerps the back of his hand), so the conservative theorist’s hero is…well, anyone who made it out of the 17th century alive. You get this overheated, pretentious rhetoric from all the loonies, yahoos, morons, and murderers of the right, from the KKK to the militias to the “libertarians”. Sorry for all the scare quotes.
It’s hard to know who these nitwits appeal to, other than those like them. Still, it’s worth hosing them down the napalm of your (one’s; our) scorn, if only to remind each other who and what some segment of the enemy (sorry; the foe!) is.
These guys are really going to be bereft when Buckley dies.
Taylor Marsh has a great post up about a woman named Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist who speaks out on Al-Jazeera against Islamic extremists.
I guess we all have to fight our religious extremists.
Oops. I proposed to Jane when it’s Red Dan who wrote the scathing retort. Sorry.
I’ll go quietly now…
Holy war…..it may come to that.
John Casper–fan mail from some flounder? [bullwinkle]
Just finished reading billmon. Classic. Terrifying. We are looking at actual evil, the real Bible kind, being carried out in our name. Germany, Pol Pot, move over, you’ve got competition.
Thersitz–re having a drink, I’ve been on a nonstop assault to my liver since December learning (1) we are hurtling into ANOTHER war of aggression, Iran; (2) World Trade 7 fell how? and (3) all the checks and balances are gone–Congress, media, voting machine fraud.
As an old liberal I find it unbelievable to be relying on the Justice Dpt, the military who are bold enough to confront aggressive nuclear war [that makes my teeth hurt just to type it], and the patriotic remnant of the intelligence agencies who remember loving country over king. Yet there we are.
RedDan, many thanks, and also for your great comments as we’ve been discussing this. The link to Trevino’s treatise and his lofty, evangelistic tone make fe feel I’m at a tent revival but definitely without the healing. There is a doomsday quality to this mindset that, being the mother I am, I suspect attracts teen and twenties boys who are not “joiners” and are seeking a focused outlet for thier testosterone-fueled fantasies. that is not to say all of thier commenters are young; I did spend some time at Redstate during the Ben episode and there are also the Vets who are stuck in the jungle with thier AK next to the front door.
I heard a piece on an NPR weekend show about the vigilantes who are patrolling the border in AZ. There was one man who had been a Sergeant in VietNam, came back and is now a security guard. He was deeply locked in the war mentality and behaved as though an army might cross the border, locked and loaded, at any moment. He had that way of talking that tells you he wished he could relive the authority and power he had in ‘Nam,using all the language of the military even though it’s been many years since he served. Like he wished he could carry his big gun with him everywhere. The reporter was with him all night and the only excitement was that they helped a cop in a tiny border town find a lost bike. “But you just never know, illegals could be in all these cars on the street.” he said conspiratorially, with the artificial toughness he needed to justify himself and his bigotry.
Red Dan, I want to thank you first for unmasking little Ben as Augustine, and then for this excellent post. I’m so encouraged that we have such well-equipped spelunkers and analysts on our side. The light you shine on this is so important. Thank you for your trips to the darkside to retrieve and catalog it.
… and when did they start caring so much about FRANCE, anyway? I thought these people hated France.
shouldn’t that Trevino dude be checking out http://goarmy.com so he can enlist and fight with real bullets?
shouldn’t that Trevino dude be checking out http://goarmy.com so he can enlist and fight with real bullets?
Good heavens, no! The 101st Fighting Keyboard Brigade is desperately needed here at home to hold down the treasonous liberal hordes on the home front. Didn’t you know that?
No, they want the poor blacks and Latinos to go and die overseas for their Dear Leader. They would never risk their precious prep-school skins in actual combat! Get real!
Dan,
Welcome to FDL. Great Post – just nailin”em beautifully. I too extend my gratitude for your going in to these swamps.
Superman took on the Klan.
http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/004848.html
Hello all!
Thanks to Jane for giving me the opportunity – I really appreciate it!
And thanks to you all for the replies, comments, and suggestions – I think, as the comments left here the other day by our helpful crusaders show, that there is a very dangerous trend developing. The nexus between the crusaders, the overt white nationalists, those who subscribe to “European Identity” (as Josh so helpfully wrote), the anti-immigrant folks, and so on…that nexus is one that represents a severe danger to the fabric of modern culture.
Let’s hope that we can shed a little light into their so-far dark corners, hold them up for inspection, and defeat them.
Cheers,
RedDan
MrWonderful — no I wish I’d written that Malta bit, I’ve been laughing about that all day.
I’m sure Dan is equally flattered by your offer, though.
Oh. No.
Now these idiots have the blood of a 14 year old on thier hands.
He died because he marched
suffers the blows of the enemy it once turned back from Europe’s heart
wait, I thought that was the Jews? ;)
There is a third thing that will bring about peace: genocide.
nice christian attitude dude, can you say cuckoo for cocoa puffs?
thank you, really
Trevino was in the Army, he got section-8′ed.
Great Job RedDan. now hit the showers… scrub really really hard.
OT: but relevant to the last sort of…
WaPooPoo has another case of BushCo lying…I kid you not…the WaPooPoo
Lacking Biolabs, Trailers Carried Case for War
Administration Pushed Notion of Banned Iraqi Weapons Despite Evidence to Contrary
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..88_pf.html
Re: Trevino’s lofty prose
can you spell C-R-U-S-A-D-E?
Either that or too many romance novels.
Dan….
very nice takedown of Trevino, who is one of the most pernicious of the racists of the right because he’s so expert at using the “codes”. Obviously, his bigotry toward Muslims overcomes his usual ability to mask his true nature…
I particularly liked the quote Trevino uses on the home page of his new website—allow me to change one word of it, to expose Trevino’s true intentions
This we hold: That we are of the Deutschland, that its culture matters, that its faith matters, that humanity matters, and that these things are worth defending: and that when we abandon these things, the enemy rushes in to fill the void.
I really like how all these posts have built on each other, with people taking from previous posts and threads and weaving it into an overall picture of right wing racism in the blogosphere. It seems like the portrait is expanding.
Very nice.
Let me add that I found it difficult to avoid flashbacks to my Dungeons and Dragons era when I was reading this stuff.
I really think the comments about “I would have been a hero back in 732″ and etc are right on the money.
Small lives, small minds, bitterly angry and venal people, one and all.
And now, my 3 year old Zoe-monster is demanding my undivided attention…so, see you all on the flip side!
RedDan
There’s no way George will bomb Iran. The y have the power to kick him out of Iraq, what with our supply lines running through Shiastan and airdrops being unsustainable in the long run. Cowardly George could never take the chance of being seen to lose a war, so he won’t do it. Not after he showed hid dad how to do it by removing Saddam. He just won’t take that risk. Right now they’re both just using Iraq/nuke threats/counterthreats as a pawn in what ever deal they inevitably have to make. If he does do it, the people living in the Green Zone had better hope there are plenty of buildings with flat roofs :
http://www.afa.org/magazine/ap…..saigon.asp
zennurse — yes it all sounds a bit Wolf and the Dove, doesn’t it?
Jane, this series has such value that I think it should be transferred into some kind of published pamphlet.
I know hyperlink is awkward for that, but one can also print source material.
We know people who can pull this off.
The reason is, online, it gets a certain audience, but the mainstream audience would be more likely to digest it in print form. Think: Educating Wolfie.
Do you think this could be doable or advisable?
TeddySanFran #23, re: their hatred of the French.
they had their fellow crusaders standing in the sewers catching all the french wine in buckets as they pretended to get rid of it in a fit of indignation. They then, under cover of darkness, lurched off to their lair and got mightily drunk on the wine and on the power they believed to have seized. Cause, hey, it is better than MD 20/20, Boone’s Farm, and Night Train.
Seriously, though, they would prefer the hated anti-war French with their accents and white skin and acceptable religions to the evil brown people with THOSE other accents and THAT religion. Truly scary– gradations of hatred.
Sergey Eisenstein understood the connection between fascism and the Crusaders in the movie Alexander Nevsky – how the Teutonic Knights of the Crusades were used to conquer in the Baltics just like the Nazis would attempt to do…
Mr. Wonderful,
I would marry you…but I am already married…
Hold on! Let’s convert to Islam and move to Massachusetts…then we can have multi-gender polygamy!
Zoe says:
no yes pooci fdgtjttgjyujgjhjggfghgghghhhhhhghghghgghghghh hgnjb fb bn dog hjgj
So there!
Aw shit – you guys put the crappy-ass comments back in. :(
Just wanted to note the flawed title of the post. It should have been:
Religion, Racism, RedState, and the War on Terror
I assume it was a PC-thing that led to leaving out the obvious elephant in the room (religion). Or too much browbeating from the lying war-on-christianists segment, or whatever…
Jane,
“I really like how all these posts have built on each other, with people taking from previous posts and threads and weaving it into an overall picture”
To quote (edit) your post somewhat, that’s what’s always made FDL unique IMO ; )
Gary Hart just gave major props to Feingold– when asked who in the democratic party was not a coward, he promptly named Russ.
On Colbert.
Nightcap — heard on local radio today a news item that in Montana an American Nazi is running in the Republican primary for the “white working class.” Anyone heard of this?
Creepy…he needs a session with Mr. Dobbs.
So what of moral values? We all know that “hate” is an important moral value of the extreme right. It was and is George W. and his team of “I, Me, Mine” cohorts who have turned Muslim public opinion against us, from approximately 80% for, to 80% against after we “liberated” Iraq. I still fail to understand how some people can be so ignorant of the fact that Muslims (and others, of course) are DIFFERENT from us, and do not wish to be molded in our image. Once again, I hear from Hugh Hewitt asking the question, “do you really believe the Iraqi people were better off under Saddam than they are now?” Would that we could ask the 100,000 plus Iraqis who were alive under Saddam but dead (liberated) now, what they think about being “better off.” Especially since according to the Christian right they are burning in a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity even as we speak. I would think that even so-called Christians might believe they were better off under Saddam, since there still would be a possibility of them being “saved”. Being Christian myself, I believe like most reasonable people that “Christian” is not just something you are, but something you do. And that “something you do” is loving your fellow man, unconditionally.
Pach — yes I do.
Jane, absolutely. That’s just the kind of woman they wish they had, too. Soft and helpless with heaving breasts and an exotic name. yeach!
I agree, this has been a fascinating thread and series.
Ms Anna Nola – Thanks for the WP aarticle. Page One tomorrow. Do you think some reporters over ther just got fed up and decided to tell the truth, their own editorial page be damned?
EPU’d, but I think I’m SO clever…
Proposed nickname for Mrs. Howell (lil Debbie is cool, but I like those carb/fat/infinity- shelf-life snack cakes):
Lovey
I liked Natalie Schaefer too, but I bet she’d be cool with this.
jb
I’m sorry but I think WE ALL NEED TO FOCUS.
THIS ASSHOLE IS ABOUT TO ATTACK ANOTHER COUNTRY AGAIN, THIS TIME WITH NUKES.
IT’S SO BAD MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY ARE OPENLY DISCUSSING A MILITARY COUP. (SEE HARPERS ISSUE ON NEWSTANDS NOW.)
THE REALLY BAD THING IS LIBERALS LIKE ME ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO A MILITARY COUP/DICTATORSHIP REASONING IT CAN’T BE ANY WORSE THAN WHAT WE GOT NOW.
Our civilian constitutional form of government is about to be shattered.
We need a Souther Poverty Law Center (SPLC) online kind of think, a wiki i guess.
Prairie Sunshine ~
I heard that, too. I also heard that the republican party is planning on defeating their own candidate! He, on the other hand said that he thought his ideology was mighty similar to the republicans. I’ll try to find the link.
It’s been great is reading these Late Night posts this week, then taking Kevin Phillips to bed. I recommend “American Theocracy” to those who enjoy their history, and who can tolerate compound sentences.
Pach Jane – Do I feel a roots action coming on. Delivering our compilation of Bigotsphere swill to some of our favorite smearers of “blogs”.
anon – I sure as hell hope so. We need some members of the reality based community to get to the truth where ever it is. If the truth hurts well so be it, the lies have sure hurt plenty but at least folks will know where they stand when the truth comes out.
Hell maybe it is the idea of NUCLEAR WAR! WTF did I just type that and mean it? OMG remember who is allied with Iran folks. Remember that former cold warrior the former USSR…Russia and China are buddies with Iran. Foreign Policy can get a lot worse than the Iraq war. It doesn’t seem like it now, but then again we are dealing with crazy folk. Crazy folk with personality disorders and delusions of grandeur.
The Montana Nazi is Shawn Stuart and he’s as Aryan as they come. I sent a link to Jane today to forward to Matt O. I heard about it on the radio. The Republican Party will campaign against him.
Hey Jane, CBS’ website quoted you on Fred Hiatt:
“‘A Good Leak,’ Thoroughly Debunked”
“….The debunkage continued in the blogosphere – some more aggressively than others. At Firedoglake: “The new Washington Post editorial, an enormous turd that editorial page editor Fred Hiatt no doubt wrote, is such an unmitigated piece of BushCo. propaganda, such a giant bag of [expletive] it deserves to be taken apart, piece by piece and beaten into the ground.”The post goes on to refer to the paper as “just a few shades less reliable than Pravda.†Let’s hope Hiatt comes to his next live online chat with a healthy dose of self-confidence.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2…..8328.shtml
This wasn’t part of my Shawn Stuart search earlier today.
Warning from Google
I’m sorry.. but they’re all so STUPID. Trevino rants like an adolescent dyslexic who thinks that a thesaurus makes up for lack of style and content. Are the views of such people really influential? Frightening, if true.
So I can’t have been the only one surprised to learn here that “dhimmi” is not just a weird wingnut diminutive misspelling I’d only sort of noticed, but actually a real and (in their fevered minds) tangentially relevant concept. A couple of Google searches later and I guess I sort of understand: these yokels literally, genuinely suspect there’s a grand unified conspiracy by All Libruls to sell out Western Civilization to Islam with all possible haste.
These guys just do not kid around with their literal apocalyptic interpretations. Which is awesome, in a guilty “ha ha that schizophrenic homeless guy’s signs are actually kind of hilarious” sort of way, except for 1. all the bad writing it engenders and 2. the sheer number of these loons (at least in terms of Google hits), combined with the above documentation of their excitably genocidal tendencies, means I really shouldn’t be chuckling at them.
Yeesh. Not what I needed to read right before bedtime.
Prarie, per zennurse:
State Nazi candidate denounced
By MATT GOURAS – Associated Press Writer – 04/05/06
“HELENA — The Montana Republican Party says it did not recruit and will work to defeat a Butte man with ties to a white supremacist group who is running as a Republican for the Legislature….”
http://www.helenair.com/articl…..506_02.txt
I think this confirms Jane’s, Matt O’s Red Dan’s, and Digby’s emphasis on “code.” Once someone comes “out” as a white supremacist, the mainline Republicans run away.
Oh, and let me also congratulate you on a fabulous series. These posts will sizzle Wolf’s boxers, I tell ya.
PrairieSunshine~
here is the site about the Montana Nazi: http://www.ktvq.com/Global/story.asp?S=4730106
I don’t know how to make this a link, so you can copy it into your browser I guess.
Man that WP story on page one tomorrow is incredible. Further proof that Bush misled the American people on WMD. And lookie who is in the middle of it. THe Defense Intelligence Agency. Christy and Jane – I’m sure you’re already on it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01888.html
Lacking Biolabs, Trailers Carried Case for War
Administration Pushed Notion of Banned Iraqi Weapons Despite Evidence to Contrary
On May 29, 2003, 50 days after the fall of Baghdad, President Bush proclaimed a fresh victory for his administration in Iraq: Two small trailers captured by U.S. and Kurdish troops had turned out to be long-sought mobile “biological laboratories.” He declared, “We have found the weapons of mass destruction.”
The claim, repeated by top administration officials for months afterward, was hailed at the time as a vindication of the decision to go to war. But even as Bush spoke, U.S. intelligence officials possessed powerful evidence that it was not true.
U.S. officials asserted that Iraq had biological weapons factories in trailers, even after a Pentagon mission found them unsuited for that role.
A secret fact-finding mission to Iraq — not made public until now — had already concluded that the trailers had nothing to do with biological weapons. Leaders of the Pentagon-sponsored mission transmitted their unanimous findings to Washington in a field report on May 27, 2003, two days before the president’s statement.
I regularly hit this guy to see what they’re up to – don’t blame me if you puke after clicking the link.
http://americanjihad.blogspot……m-all.html
Note to reddan: The technical term when men are involved is polyandry.
On a personal note: My late wife coined the expression “polyrandy” to describe her nights on the town with her womens group. They used to ogle every male who was even halfway presentable apparently. Have you ever considered moving to debauched Scandinavia the weather’s effing awful but the love life is good ;-)
Nancy Pelosi read FDL!
WaPoo just published her letter to the editor about Freddy’s “A Good Leak.”
“For The Post to characterize President Bush’s leaking of portions of the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq as “good” was astonishing. The president’s selective leaking of highly sensitive intelligence for political purposes should be condemned, not praised.
The leak was not intended to inform, clarify or aid public debate. It was, instead, straight out of Karl Rove’s politics-of-fear playbook. The motivation was to discredit a critic of Mr. Bush’s Iraq policy.
The president has been caught red-handed doing what he publicly claims to abhor. Presidents should lead by example, including adherence to national security protocols for the proper declassification of sensitive intelligence. From the beginning the Bush administration has manipulated intelligence about Iraq to try to strengthen the president’s political position.
The Post should stop condoning Mr. Bush’s behavior and should join the call for an investigation of the administration’s manipulation of intelligence for political purposes. Congressional oversight is long overdue.
NANCY PELOSI
U.S. Representative (D-Calif.)
Washington
The writer is the House minority leader.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01689.html
Well, thanks to whatever created that link for me.
Maybe this has already been discussed today. I just got home from a very long day a bit ago and haven’t had time to look at anything that was discussed before this Late Nite FDL. But it feels like the GOP is going through some mighty large changes. Too bad it wasn’t sooner.
“On Monday, former Secretary of State Colin Powell told me that he and his department’s top experts never believed that Iraq posed an imminent nuclear threat, but that the president followed the misleading advice of Vice President Dick Cheney and the CIA in making the claim. Now he tells us.”
This from Robert Scheer at http://www.truthdig.com/report…..by_powell/
Here’s a link to the National Socialist Movement’s site, hosted by Bill White, the leader. The site is overthrow.com and there are any number of posts appropriate for Wolf’s lessons. This one is a press release about Shawn Stuart.
Overthrow
So I can’t have been the only one surprised to learn here that “dhimmi†is not just a weird wingnut diminutive misspelling I’d only sort of noticed, but actually a real and (in their fevered minds) tangentially relevant concept. A couple of Google searches later and I guess I sort of understand: these yokels literally, genuinely suspect there’s a grand unified conspiracy by All Libruls to sell out Western Civilization to Islam with all possible haste.
adb — I hadn’t followed that particular link in Red Dan’s post before. OMG you’re right, that is what they think.
This Dhimmi business is projection, obviously.
It is one of the ironies of my blogging life that I am friends with folk who have become the bitterest enemies.
Yes, Trevino is a friend of mine. And his worldview is a complicated one to say the least. I can not and will not defend his views on Islam, though one must admit there are many shades of gray as to its practice in todays world. The treatment of women under Sharia is disgraceful – call me intolerant if you wish. But Trevino’s view is absurd in its expression and viewpoint on Islam. It is not acceptable.
That said, my friend Dan has mischaracterized to some degree Trevino’s piece on MLK, Certainly Trevino’s labeling of King as a Communist on this evidence is ridiculous in the extreme:
Forget about the right or wrong of King’s speech – a man of faith speaking for peace equals a communist? So all the Pope and bishops who did the same were what? It is this that most infuriates me about Trevino – when he slides into the comfortable skin of the typical Republican demagogue. This is he at his worst.
But what is Trevino’s piece about? It is about debunking the Republican myth of MLK as a conservative who would embrace Republican values. And that is Trevino at his best. onest and piercing of the lies of his side:
There are not many Reublicans who would write that paragraph. And that, in my opinion, is worthy of respect.
And at enchiridion-militis.com, every writer posts this little cross †after her/his name. This is really creepy.
Wow, mark, american jihad is completely cracked, looney tunes, hooby-jooby, gonzo radicalism. worst yet, definitely. Unfortunately, it won’t win, not in the top 100 on that list Jane is using. But thanks for sharing it, it kinda freaks me out that he’s in the same city as siun.
Well folks, the economy is teetering on the brink…laden with consumer and govt debt, deficits, commodity/monetary inflation, a derivatives time bomb, and a housing bubble on the verge of collapse. Add in the global labor arbitrage, and it’s a recipe for disaster.
My point here is this: If you think the nativist, racists assholes are bad now, wait about 6-12 mo until the recession starts, likely with a full blown currency crisis, or meltdown at a major institution. With $5/gal gas and nno jobs to be found, the nativist wurlitzer will crank up to full volume…it always does. History may not repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.
The credit bubble is dangerously teetering on the brink as the central bankers of the world try to suppress inflation while simulatenously pumping the money supply…a contradictory scenario if there ever was one.
Jane, can we get little “secular humanist” symbols to post after our names, like their little crosses? Or is that what *ilson’s * is?
Okay, The AP has picked the WP story up. With possibly the most misleading headline EVER.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ira…..0bQ–
Seriously … this is the headline …
U.S.: Trailers in Iraq Prove Weapons Claim
Uhhh, no. Exact opposite. Whose drunk and writing headlines for the AP?
What was it with the weird sexually charged attacks on Jane by Trevio a few nights ago—in defense of Ben.?
79: “History may not repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme.”
Good one.
Sorry Armando, one paragraph can’t balance all the other inappropriate things he says and the horrifying comments allowed over there. There is little humanity and a lot of hubris, with a healthy dose of mean over at Redstate and it can’t be passed over because he writes a few sentences.
The goal of this exercise is to teach the media about the source of this attitude on the net so they understand who they support when they choose insane guests, but it’s also turning out to be an attempt to shine some light on the more unsafe places in the blogosphere, and redstate, with Trevino, is certainly one of the top offenders.
Marky:
His attacks on Jane were juvenile and contemptible.
Clearly his friend’s character being in question unbalanced him in a way that was reprehensible.
He simply did not understand that his friend thrst himself into the limlight and his many flaws were thus fair game.
One point, I thought the attacks on Domenech’s home schooled background were not right. Indeed, they were very wrong, imo.
zennurse:
He resigned from Red State.
Look, I am not trying to be his lawyer here. He wrote his words, he will have to answer for them.
I am only trying to point out that in my experience, Trevino has been one of the most honest of conservatives and Republicans.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/…..index.html
Link to election results for special election to replace Randy Duke Cunningham.
Absentee votes only- Busby with 42% of the vote.
Armando — I think the point of Trevino’s piece, if I’m not mistaken, is that he thinks King not being a conservative is a bad thing. It’s intended as a denigration, as in the portion you quoted:
the things that place him outside conservatism are assuredly faults
It doesn’t seem that he intends this denial of King’s “conservatism” to be meant as any kind of flattery. While it might be refreshing in the face of Republicans who want to appropriate King’s legacy and twist it for their own ends, it doesn’t strike me as any better.
Yale nominees cheat
Well, that explains a lot.
Armando,
I respect your loyalty to your friend – I have given you grief about it in the past, perhaps unfairly, but enough of that.
I guess I would put the way I feel this way:
Hate the sin, not the sinner.
Trevino has gone way, way off the rails on a number of very notable occasions.
He obviously has considerable influence amongst the conservative types, up to and including his recent reference to “recommending” Ben Domenech to Jim Brady.
I feel that for an individual to have such a megaphone and to not be taken to task for such widespread and irresponsible nut-jobbery would be doing a disservice to the tone and character of political debate.
Trevino is either knowingly or unknowingly fronting for some truly odious and extremely scary people with apocalyptic visions.
Unfortunately, these people also apparently have undue influence amongst those who set policy direction for our nation.
They must be stopped, and those who are teachable need to be shown just exactly how dangerous their crazed fantasies really are.
I do not think Trevino is particularly reachable or teachable – you obiously do.
We’ll have to let the course of events tell that tale.
OT —-
Your World with Cavuto had this scrowled across the bottom:
YOUR WORLD < <<CHANGING>>>
————————-
WERE AMERICAN FLAGS AT
RALLIES JUST A “PROP”?
“CHANGING” was glowing red – I’ll give you three guesses to figure out what they meant by that one, but you’ll only need one.
They mean “CHANGING” and emphasize it heavily because they want to scare their rabid conservative viewers that “GOOD GOD, THIS COUNTRY IS TURNING BROWN!”
And of course, the demogoguery by claiming the flags were props.
Why on earth is trevino influential at all? As far as I know, he has no exceptional educational background or work experience. Is he a vet? IIRC, he went to a military prep school.
He’s an absolutely horrible writer, with a nails-on-chalkboard ear for language. I just don’t get it.
Precincts just starting to come in. Busby holding at 42%.
Armando-
Good for him, but I doubt it was because he grew much of a conscience. I simply can’t appreciate the values that would support a site like that. I’m not expecting you to be his lawyer at all, I’m just expressing my thoughts on this, per the subject of the thread. As I said above, I spent a few nights at Redstate, Freepers and LGF because I felt I should understand the sites better as we proceeded with this discussion. What I learned at Redstate was how many ways there were to say,”I’m racist and I hate anyone who defends what I don’t believe.” There were some objectors, but they were grossly outmanned and if there was moderation, I never saw it.
Do you know Ben? I’m interested in what he’s like personally.
rw, that’s good for Francine isn’t it? If that’s just the absentees?
I’m rooting for her, sent her 25 bucks. Wish I could have sent more.
It goes back to David Neiwert’s “conveyor belt” zennurse. From my POV it’s not enough to just hit the big fish. There are lots of little fish in the shoal feeding off their leavings. Or sometimes bringing them a tidbit or two by way of tribute. That guy is very typical.
That’s not a criticism of Jane’s criteria far from it. She and those who’ve written this series deserve a big “well done” for starting to drag these slime into the light starting at the top is the logical place.
What is the Left Coaster talking about? Is it some kind of code only bloggers know?
Trevino has been one of the most honest of conservatives and Republicans.
I really don’t get you Armando sometimes. Trevino is among the most dishonest, with a charming arrogance to boot, purveyors of this failed ideology.
A polished turd is still a turd.
zennurse — Kos says turnout is horribe, terribly depressed. But hey! Chuck Schumer says the base is enthused, ready to hop to those polls if we just DON’T ROCK THE BOAT!!!
Calling Russ Feingold….
Okay, I and a bunch of other people apparently complained to the AP. Now the headline reads …
White House Shelved Iraqi Trailers Report
Good deed done, I go to bed.
Let me get more specific in my question about Trevino. Ben D clearly got the job at WaPoo, and probably the gig at redstate, because of connections alone. He was someone’s mouthpiece. So who’s Trevino’s patron?
This is OT and apologies if this has been posted by someone else in a thread below. I haven’t had time to go back a catch up on all of the comments.
I thought that this might be of interest to people here:
http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm
“Filmmakers Chris Hume and L. Wild Horse travel to South Dakota, the state that has passed a law banning all abortions, even in cases of rape and incest. But on the Pine Ridge Reservation, tribal president Cecelia Fire Thunder is taking a stand. She is invoking the Oglala Lakota tribe’s status as a sovereign nation to surpass state law, by building a family planning clinic on the reservation. President Fire Thunder speaks with t r u t h o u t in this video exclusive.”
Hitler was pretty damn honest in Mein Kampf too, and on the plus side he only advocated killing 12 million people. Trevino proposes killling 1 billion people.
And people say I’M crazy for my WAG about how rivalry with China is the motivating force behind our Iraq/Iran policy. Heh.
zennurse — I think the Left Coaster is trying to be funny, saying I missed an opportunity to bust the Post with their own reporting because I didn’t quote a play-by-play earlier in the day that said Cheney was booed.
I think that point pretty much got covered with Pach’s link to the WaPo’s own video showing the booing, but I wouldn’t want to get in the way of creative license.
I don’t know Ben. In my one communication with him he demonstrated that he has no sense of humor and seemed to me rather dim.
His writings were utterly forgettable, even the things he plagiarized seemed so to me.
I never understood how WaPo came to choose him.
The most believable rumor I have read is that Hugh Hewitt recommended him.
Now there’s a fellow who deserves a post in this series.
Zenn–It’s about what was expected- polling showed her with 39-45% but no one knows what the turnout will be or who will show up..a lot of the absentees always vote absentee- and almost always vote- so we have yet to get a read on who got their troops out.
Jane, have you hit the Left coaster yet? Might check that out.
I’ll go see Kos, gettin’ kind of late for Schumer’s plan isn’t it? What time is it in Texas? 9 or 8?
Jane:
Did you catch the AP story on Abramoff? Lil Debbie will be shocked.
22% of the vote in- Busby closing in on 43%–Bilbray widening his slight lead for second place.
Tuesday, April 11, 2006 · Last updated 8:00 p.m. PT
E-mails show Abramoff’s donation leverage
By JOHN SOLOMON AND SHARON THEIMER
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITERS
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/…..icans.html
I’ll be satisfied when I read the headline “Abramoff directed donations to WaPo ediotiral/ombudsman staff”
From truthdig.com:
“In May of 1962, 21-year-old Tom Hayden, a founding member of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), took the lead in drafting “The Port Huron Statement,†the manifesto of the SDS and a handbook for a generation of student activists.
“The Port Huron Statement called on students to leave the ivory tower and seek that justice through direct participatory democracy. The document also railed against the military industrial complex, racial bigotry, and the spread of nuclear weapons.
“Hayden went on to travel the world as an activist, journalist and defender of human rights, in addition to serving in the California legislature for 18 years. In September 2005, he re-issued The Port Huron Statement with a new introduction, which is re-printed in full here. As a new preface to that introduction, Hayden has written a short essay for Truthdig about how the legacy of that document continues to find expression in the current generation of young activists.
“Specifically, Hayden writes about Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old American college student who was killed by an Israeli bulldozer in 2003 while protesting the Israeli destruction Palestinian houses in Gaza. Hayden finds in Rachel Corrie a powerful moral example of commitment to social justice.”
If you want to read his new preface, it is at:
http://www.truthdig.com/report…..ort_huron/
Apropos research if I’ve posted this before my apologies I use two search engines. Google and clusty.
http://www.clusty.com
Clusty has the advantage that it clusters its results. Very handy indeed espescially if you’re doing complex searches – it’s bangsmack at the top of my bookmarks list.
(They also have downloadable toolbars one for IE and one for FF I don’t use it on principle but that’s because I like a clean browser not because I think there’s anything sinister about their toolbar.)
jane, you saw this diary, i expect, but just in case:
Plame Players?
Honor is like sex: the more someone spouts off about it, the less likely it is that they have any.
Jane (#18) – An amazing woman. I wonder what her story is. I hope she survives. Muslim religious fanatics seem to be more aggressive than average, and they seem to get more support from their societies, at least in the Middle East.
One quote from Taylor’s story seems related to the whole “Dhimmitude” thing. I don’t know any Arabic. Maybe someone who does could tell if this word is a variation:
[emphasis mine]
She’s taking her debating opponent to task, of course, for labeling non-Muslims. Is this some sort of ironic joke on the wingnuts’ part?
Which reminds me last night using clusty searching for markfromireland I came across this diatribe:
Open Letter to Jane of Fire Dog Lake; FDL bloggers/readers and blogosphere
Just answered my own question. There’s an entry for “Dhimmi” in the Wikipedia.
It’s a locked entry, which probably means that wingnuts and non-morons have been arguing about the political correctness of the content.
mark, got a 404 on your link, but is it Constant’s letter?
For my money if you’re looking for a female muslim heroine Shirin Ebadi is it. That woman is exceptionally courageous.
Via TBogg, this is glorious — Susanna Hoffs & Matt Sweet doing “And Your Bird Can Sing.”
markfromireland #118,
I couldn’t get in. note that the dead link there is from last year.
Eek I must have forgotten to check I’d taken the whole thing! Corrected link
Yes it’s to what you call contants letter zennurse. I remember she did a lot of commenting at one point there was evidently some sort of falling out.
PS: you can blogwhore for firedoglake at either of my blogs as much as you like :-)
WaPo creates a new version of the Cheney booing:
When all the fans settled into their seats under the sun, long after Vice President Cheney had skipped his ceremonial first pitch into the dirt in front of Washington Nationals catcher Brian Schneider — and received boos on his way off the field . . .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00806.html
66 percent of the precincts in – Busby holding at 43%– looks like a runoff-probably with Bilbray.
I read that whole letter which he had linked over at glenn greenwald’s. He had been blogwhoring and was not responsive to requests to stop. (She?) If you read the letter, it appears at first that there is a wide-eyed innocence about the circumstances, and I honestly almost came here to post that I thought folks had been harsh. But as the thing goes on, it becomes very clear that there is a huge streak of condescension and manipulation, kind of borderline behavior. It’s a very strange kind of letter, and I changed my mind about revisitng it because it made me feel uncomfortable. Was it Troll-like? Not specifically, but it was creepy imo.
rwcole @ 11:07 pm (#126) – Any breakdown on how many votes went to Democratic, progressive, and moderate candidates other than Busby?
Very late here, rw, we’ll need to do an Act Blue for Francine, don’t you think??
Going to bed, goodnight friends.
Sweet Dreams
zen
Wa Po has a big story running on the famous weapons trailers- turns out that Clusterfuck knew that they had nothing to do with weapons soon after the invasion- so he classified the report on their true nature and kept referring to em as weapons trailers..
Whadda scumsucker.
Night Zenn- think I’ll hang it up too- not much chance of getting 51%. Didn’t expect it but was still hoping for it.
zennurse @ 11:16 pm (#129) – She’s on several ActBlue lists, including DownWithTyranny’s.
Cujo– Only one other dem- and she got less than one percent. There were over a dozen goopers and they split the rest.
mark,
I totally agree with zennurse. I was on the thread with constant. S/he follows people around, metaphorically speaking. S/he is very passive aggressive. By name or handle, “What do you think about this?” “What do you think about that?”
When people didn’t respond, constant went into this “poor me,” it’s a bad blog routine.
No one is obligated to respond to a comment. After reading a few of constant’s, I doubt anyone will.
Constant was “constant.” Just kept on and on and on, came across as very needy.
I have to turn in now, but I’ll check the thread tomorrow.
Hope the walking is going well for you.
rwcole – Hopefully, some independents will prefer Busby to the Republican who’s left. Otherwise, it looks like an uphill battle.
markfromireland,
thanks for fixing the link. LOL, but off to bed. Got told today they’re expanding my big lecture class in the fall from 120 to 200 enrollment. Crazy!
Number 1 with a bullet…
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a…..foot1.html
Cujo—Yeah it doesn’t look great- but this was an odd election- very low turnout- and the candidates weren’t addressing one another directly. The runoff will happen concurrently with the primary- so it will be a different crowd- and Bilbray may have a few skeletons rattling around- we’ll see.
Walking is going OK John thanks for asking it’s slow and frustrating but getting easier – far better news (for me) is that yesterday I hopped on one of my beloved bicycles and went for a spin – just as the physio people said I’m able to do that with no problems.
Sorry, I can’t agree with this post. None of the statements you offered were racist. Many of them could be considered insensitive or blunt, but that’s all. Denying that a problem exists with Islam is foolish. I’m sure there’s plenty of racist stuff to gather up, but this doesn’t count.
Josh make want to ask himself…who created all these evil religious radicals in the ME? Seems to me its the people he champions- the RW religious ruling elite here. Bush and the Party of Endtimers have marginalized moderation here….and the same thing has happened in the ME. Instead of surgical instruments to deal with stateless people like OBL, we choose to decimate whole countries. Maybe that creates a more radical culture in the ME? Could be.
Trevino reminds me of the rabid anti-communists of the 60’s. Back then, we were ‘this close’ to being run over by swarms of godless commies. Whatever happened to that war of the cultures? Oh yeah, we turned them into godless capitalists.
Anywho, outstanding blog and a great, great read abou RedState. Is it me, or do most of the posters over at the hi-class version of the FreeRepublic suffer from terminal verbostic pomposity?
Jane &
markfromireland,
Coinkydink.
Constant’s letter lists Toby Pelzold as a victim of an unfair ban from FDL, and provides a link to his website. Well, I just posted some junk from LGF (in the last late night, so as not to pollute a live thread) where a certain Toby Pelzold made the comment “subhuman garbage” in reference to Muslims. Can’t say whether it is the same Toby, of course, but after looking at the website Constant linked, can’t say it isn’t.
Then again…
Just by dumb luck I found a Post in Toby’s archive entitled, guess what, “Subhuman Garbage”. The post offers a hat-tip to the LGF post mentioned above in which a certain Toby Pelzold made the comment, ah, you get the picture.
BullGoose – It’s PeTzold, and if it’s the one and only, (as opposed to a conglomeration of sorts), it was/is a regular at Atrios’ site. Sort of an interactive troll, not like the one he had that would just recite all this stuff about how Joe Wilson would be indicted shortly, etc. But Petzold certainly does seem to go more out of his way than the average troll in his quest to be a complete pain in the ass w/out getting banned.
And that Constant, what a piece of work. I’ve seen the name all over, waiting for someone to write something like “It’s the end of the world! We must stop BushCo!”. And there’s Constant, with that “Yes, there is a problem. You see the problem? I can help. Would you like me to tell you what needs to be done?” schtick, latching onto someone/anyone. I think Zennurse summed it up best up at 11:15 pm. (#127 at the moment.)
I am afraid that I have to agree with Willis above. More to the point I am a little shocked that no one here seems willing to even entertain the thought that maybe Tacitus has a legitimate issue, and being Racist has nothing to do with it.
As good liberals and progressives, we are the children of the Enlightenment, the sine qua non of which are tolerance for the differing beliefs of others and an absolute adherence to Freedom of Conscience & Thought.
With this being true, just how do we square the circle of these values with what we see coming out of Islamic world virtually every day?
We are rightly against the death penalty, even for heinous crimes, in the United States, but have lost our outrage and ability to protest the general tenet of Islam that Death is the only just punishment for Apostasy?
Where is the justice, and where is our outrage, at the recent Pakistani case of Abdul Rahman who faced the Death Penalty for deciding some 16 years previously to be a Christian? Ultimately, Mr. Rahman was sneaked out of Pakistan to Italy. But, truth be told, just why was this necessary?
Are we really in favor of Death for Apostasy? Do we just look at this as some little cultural quirk and shy our eyes away? How is this being a good Progressive?
And being liberals, don’t we have a very legitimate complaint against Iran starting in 1989? I would argue that since the Salmon Rushdie and the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Seyyed Ruhollah Khomeini calling for his death, Iran has been the leading cause toward a revival of darkness in a humanity struggling toward the light.
Further, Rushdie is still under protective custody and more or less still in hiding. More recently we had the murder of Theo Van Gough, and the female Dutch PM Ayaan Hirsi Ali is also in hiding, as are several of the Danish Cartoonist from that recent row.
As Liberals are we to say noting about this assault on Human Freedom of Thought? We just shrug our shoulders and turn away?
And do we see plural marriage as acceptable or as the principle means of oppressing millions of women across the Islamic world? Do we care about women being denied any education whatsoever?
To tell you the truth, I am in despair that Liberals/Progressives seem totally unwilling to address these issues in a meaningful way. I don’t know how we find any congruence between our liberal values and what is happening in the real world?
Instead I find this, what I consider silliness about Josh Trovino being a Racist. RedDan is a smart guy, I remember reading him with pleasure when he was over at Tacitus…and to be honest, Dan knows better to think of Josh as a Racist.
There are really issues in this world, real causes to be fought for, meaningful dialogues to be engaged in, the world could surly use a dose of our idealism…but falsely arguing over Tacitus` racism isn’t one of them.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
I think george bush’s biggest lie was “I’m a uniter, not a divider”, hands down.
Great catch on that BullGoose.
Oh my, I scanned the Constant screed. What a waste. Many things are simply repeated over and over in a rambling, disjointed, attempt to come off as filler for some kind of ‘I’m Completely Jealous of Jane- or If I Can’t Have Her Neither Can You’ faux thesis that wins the Humor Has It: Off Meds Fucked Up Yellow Keyboard Award. A few things made me chuckle.
Wondered about the constant mention of RNC:
“This is where FDL completely disconnects itself from its stated agenda — to provide a new agenda other than what the RNC is offering, and ensure the RNC is held to account for the White House abuse of power.”
Followed an FDL comment link but by scrolling down just a couple of comments I see this:
“Keep in mind folks — I’m in the RNC — and I’m part of the internal resitance to keep our country free — and soon end this non-sense by this Rebellious President with the impeachment.” (snip)
Constant | Homepage | 01.30.06 – 7:30 pm
http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..77/#378771
She keeps repeating shit like this:
“In the comments related to ZennNurse and punaise, you’ll notice both are confused. It remains to be understood whether either of them are on some sort of medication. It is not the job of the world to explain things to them, or reassure them.”
Speaking of being off meds, several times including this one Constant admits later:
“My confusion – and I realize this is my problem, my issue, and my dilemma – is that when someone tells me that I have to do or not do something – or that “other links†are out there discussing what I am saying – I am confused when I ask “what are those linksâ€?”
Here is a shocker for punaise and his wife:
“Punaise’s comments are revealing. She appears to be mentally challenged. Notice the claims of “passive aggressive†– yet, she remains silent on what she would prefer, what this means to hear, or whether there are or are not specific examples.”
Constant’s wordy tome continues, and continues on and on and on:
“They’re not straight shooters; if you’re a straight shooter with them, they’ll throw it back on you and make it out to be your problem. You want to spend time auditing their work products? Not me, I don’t have the interest, budget, or manpower to duplicate their work.”
(ed note: one million FDL fixation words later)
In sum of this lengthly abuse from Constant, claiming we tell everyone to fuck off, and us being accused of being a cult mind you, but before she tells Jane to fuck off:
“Hamsher appears to surround herself with people who are not well versed in multi-jurisdiction litigation; nor are they sufficiently well educated, nor do they have advanced degrees. Rather, her associates are excitable, not well versed in psychology, and well practiced in abuse.”
Earth to Constant- You don’t have to bother to keep daring us to try to sue you, you aren’t credible nor worth it. The Bush regime is trying to nuke Iran.
Oh, Jane. Is this really the best you could do? RedDan has been stalking Josh for years now. I mean, comedy-wise, this is hilarious; it’s one of the best extended non-sequiturs I’ve ever seen. But if your intent was to tilt at the windmills of Josh Trevino’s “racism” — good luck there, by the way — was this really the best you could do? Were there no retarded ducks to write this? Or did they cost too much?
To both Jane and RedDan: I owe you both a sincere thanks. It was kind of a glum morning, but man, I laughed so much, I’m ready for a bright, sunshiney day.
More, please.
JWR #143
BullGoose – It’s PeTzold…
Yes, you’re right. Thank you.
PeTzold is what I should have written. How the hell I turned it to PeLzold I do not know. Apologies to Toby PeLzolds everywhere.
As for Constant, all one has to do is take a look at that open letter – it’s a fucking mile long. S/he is unrelenting.
Shez #146
Thank you, Shez. You didn’t read Constant’s entire manifesto, did you? I got a little nauseous just watching it scroll up the screen as I tried to find the end of it.
RedDan –
Great post. Enchiridion Militis is amazing. I thought Jesus’ General was a genius, but Trevino matches his best without even trying.
I challenged Trevino about the “barbarous savages” comment on that thread in 2003. It was the first time I’d ever commented online. I had been reading Trevino because I was worried about Iraq and he appeared to be a serious person with whom I did not agree about the war.
If you follow the comments on the thread, Trevino explicitly states that he views all Iraqis as savages who would desecrate the corpses of our soldiers 100 percent of the time, given the opportunity. That belief clearly represents a disconnect with the purported purpose of our occupation, which was to establish a democracy that would serve as an example to the region.
At that point I realized that Trevino was not sincere in his advocacy of the democratic project and that he was simply fearful of Muslims.
To Traveller…”With this being true…”
No one had any problems with Christianity in Afghanistan until the US upset the apple cart there.
Polygamy does not equal abuse.
The written word is not the only word. Interpretation of the written word is not the only word.
The Enlightenment is a product of Christianity, which leaves out a lot of the rest of the world. Which, being tolerant liberals means just what?
Speaking of trolls, isn’t it time we honored our pet trolls in a really big way? Seems to me, we should collect the “best of the pest” of the losers who faithfully infest themselves on every liberal/progressive website? Compile their names and showcase their thoughts and comments as representitive of Republican/Conservative/Bush values?
Maybe they could vie for the Golden Banana Award as the best Beta-Monkey willing to humiliate themselves in defense of their Alpha-Monkey? Perhaps offer a prize consisting of a large economy size bag of their favorite cheese/corn snack and powdered sugar drink?
I really think it is way past time to shine a high intensity light on those who will say anything to obfuscate, deflect, or degrade the public discussion in their zeal to promote RNC talking points. They have worked long, hard hours, many in darkened basements, collecting pennies-on-the-post from their handlers for a thankless job no sane person would do. Isn’t it time we acknowledged their contribution to the coarsening of the public discourse?
FDL, in my humble opinion, would be the perfect venue to host such a noble and much needed public service event.
The troll playpen is over at redstate
That this folks hide behind what they see as their own Christian piety is disgusting. Unfortunately, few in the MSM or the mainstream political establishment are willing to call them out on their hypocrisy. There is nothing “Christian” about the hate-speech and promotion of ethnic, religious violence promoted on Red State and other right wing blogs.
It’s time for moderate and liberal christian (and jewish and muslim) leaders to come out and call this what it is- bigotry wrapped up in nationalistic rhetoric and christian piety. In taht sense, they are not much different than those they hate- after all, people like Osama pervert the Qu’uran, which does NOT promote holy wars. Similarly, these nutcases pervert the bible and mainstream judeo christian beliefs by claiming they are the “true believers.”
This is disgusting. So, why does the MSM eat it up?
This post is not much more than a character assasination.
Doesn’t FDL have better things to write about?
Ugh–the ever puzzling Armnado/Josh friendship–it’s like the idea of Derek Jeter in a Red Sox uniform–does NOT compute!! But whatever, I’m not commenting on the topic anymore. Wait! I can’t help myself: Armando! Lose Trevino!! It’s an opposites attract thing (you good, him evil) and contrary to popular myth, such relationships are not healthy!
And hey, has everyone noticed the petulant tone that all Red State posters adopt when they’re taking on liberals? I have a theory on it. Since Republican blogs treat them like teenagers, “Use bad words and your grounded forever!”, whenever they get into emotional arguments, they revert back to their adolescent sarcastic selves (see Thomas above) and say stuff like, “So funny, I forgot to laugh–hardy har har.” Check it out, it’d be adorable if it weren’t so pathetic.
I agree with what Pach said way up there about preserving this series. I think this these posts have been so valuable that they really should have their own domocile, paper and nnot-paper.
Also, I really hope that someone deals with Michelle Malkin. Everything that comes off her keyboard or out of her mouth is so hateful.
Hey, don’t knock the Crusades. The last bunch had the salutary effect of crippling Europe’s parasitic dominant class, Gibbon would tell you, if he wasn’t whirling in his grave. Maybe ours will do the same for us.
A few days ago you were bashing Steve Sailer for being an overt racist, now you’re taking a pop at Tacitus for being a coded racist.
Yet Tacitus has swarmed all over Sailer for being an ‘evilcon’ because he’s a… wait for it… ‘thinly veiled racist’:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/evil_con.htm
http://www.tacitus.org/story/2005/9/6/162248/4586
Sounds like you need to get your co-ordinates recalibrated.
Thanks, RedDan,. These crusader rabbits are scary.
I’d love to see someone familiar with Dominionism do a post. That will scare the crap outta everyone.
Willis, Identification of an entire people as “the enemy” based on their belief qualifies as racism in my book. Jews come from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Northern Africa, and many many other nations…right? And the genetic heritage of those Jews is reflective of various admixtures of Semitic and “other,” where that other encompasses all of the above-named nations, and more. Right? And when a movement arose that determined that all who subscribed to Judaism must be exterminated, regardless of their ethnic, genetic, or geographic background — what did we call that? How is it termed, and with what sort of belief is it grouped?
Call it what you will, the identification of any group as “the enemy” based on their religion is monstrous — regardless of any problems or issues or struggles going on within that religion or between that religion and others.
Period.
Nice misreading, RedDan. As usual, your own extremism fatally affects your judgment in these matters. I’m sure you’ve seen Josh’s response to this piece of shit otherwise referred to a guest commentary. In any case, your offering merely affirms my already low opinion of this webiste.
Traveller,
Long time no see! Oh, and you should tell your compatriots that I am, in fact still prevented from posting or commenting at Tacitus. I would engage directly on these kinds of issues – Josh deserves that at least, however, I have tried to engage on several occasions and have been blocked. To answer your comments:
no one here seems willing to even entertain the thought that maybe Tacitus has a legitimate issue, and being Racist has nothing to do with it
I am a bit shocked that you cannot see the fundamental difference between a) Identifying and hashing out problems inherent in varying interpretations of religion or b) condemning, wholesale, adherents to that religion as “the enemy” threatening to destroy “european identity.”
Please. I would gladly argue about the difference between various sects and factions of Islam, Judaism, Christianity. But that is not what comprises the common thread running through all the quoted text and much, much more.
As good liberals and progressives, we are the children of the Enlightenment, the sine qua non of which are tolerance for the differing beliefs of others and an absolute adherence to Freedom of Conscience & Thought.
Right. So, that means that we should defend someone identifying an entire populace as “the enemy”? Framing references to modern day civil unrest in terms of battles fought in the Middle Ages? Talking about how the Intifada has come to Europe? Please.
With this being true, just how do we square the circle of these values with what we see coming out of Islamic world virtually every day?
Several ways: 1) We are seeing a very, very narrow slice of what happens between and among more than a billion people. 2) What we see is what is most egregious and what is most striking or shocking. If it bleeds, it leads. 3) What we are seeing is also evidence of serious economic, social, political, philosophical and, yes, religious convulsions in many parts of the world….convulsions that we have had no small part in sparking and perpetuating. Regardless, those events and trends are hardly an excuse for calling all of Islam “the enemy” nor for accusing any who attempt any form of reconciliation “dhimmi” nor for railing about the existential threat to “european identity” (loaded phrase, that one, btw).
We are rightly against the death penalty, even for heinous crimes, in the United States, but have lost our outrage and ability to protest the general tenet of Islam that Death is the only just punishment for Apostasy?
Must you map the extremists’ interpretation of Sharia (non-canonical middle ages additions to Koranic thought) onto the entirity of the teaching? Death for apostasy is not a general tenet of Islam. Period. It has come to be a general tenet for highly extremist warpings of Islam.
Where is the justice, and where is our outrage, at the recent Pakistani case of Abdul Rahman who faced the Death Penalty for deciding some 16 years previously to be a Christian? Ultimately, Mr. Rahman was sneaked out of Pakistan to Italy. But, truth be told, just why was this necessary?
Again, there was and is plenty of outrage about Mr. Rahman, as well there should be. But that is not the topic, nor is that a “general tenet” of Islam…and mapping that one instance, or even one hundred such onto the entirity of a billion people and then using that mapping to justify declaring that billion people your cultural and philosophical enemy unto death? Bullshit.
And being liberals, don’t we have a very legitimate complaint against Iran starting in 1989? I would argue that since the Salmon Rushdie and the fatwa issued by Ayatollah Seyyed Ruhollah Khomeini calling for his death, Iran has been the leading cause toward a revival of darkness in a humanity struggling toward the light.
Re: Iran, Rushdie, polygamy, and etc:
First, and again, those are hardly the norm in the vast majority of the Muslim world, and in many cases far more can be done about those issues where they are a problem by engaging with the numerous groups who are fighting for greater freedom within their own community than can be gained by calling them all “the enemy” and fantasizing about Charles Martel 2.0 fighting off the intifada in France in 2005.
Instead I find this, what I consider silliness about Josh Trovino being a Racist. RedDan is a smart guy, I remember reading him with pleasure when he was over at Tacitus…and to be honest, Dan knows better to think of Josh as a Racist.
Thanks. But if you cannot see how the blanket condemnations of entire populations, breathless rhetorical flourishes about the danger posed by an entire faith, references to European Identity under Threat from the Enemy of old seeking to resurect Dar al Islam and place us all into Dhimmi status…might just be interpreted as some pretty nasty racist and inciteful garbage, then perhaps you should read it all again and reconsider.
There are really issues in this world, real causes to be fought for, meaningful dialogues to be engaged in, the world could surly use a dose of our idealism…but falsely arguing over Tacitus` racism isn’t one of them.
there are many, many issues that need facing. Islam and its internal problems and its problems in dealing with modernity are included. But one of the first things we need to do, here at home amongst our own, is make damned sure that these problems and issues in others’ cultures and countries are not used as excuses to mask our own problems, to justify our own pathologies, or to externalize our own upheavals — especially when the language, context, and turns of phrase in the cites quoted in the post are far, far to close to exterminationist for any thinking liberal to be comfortable at all.
Best wishes, traveller, and give the cited material a read through again, and try to see why it is that that material might just make a progressive extremely uncomfortable, at best.
Nice misreading, RedDan.
-snip-
Oh how the light of day causes such sniffles and tears.
Shorter BirdDog: How dare you read Josh’s words and take them at face value!!!
Hello Charles “BirdDog” Bird, you lying sack of dogshit.
Still chasing those WMDs and looking for Mohammed Atta’s colleague in Prague?
No?
Maybe you should get back to trolling Kos, like back in the good old days when the war in Iraq was such a bright shiny new toy?
You’re beneath my contempt.
Thank you so much. It’s energizing to read such a beautiful example of leftist rhetoric. You people just can’t wait to get your throats cut in the night, as long as the cutters are brown, black, or anti-Christian. Good luck to you. But don’t ever bet a farthing on the power of your intellects. You don’t have any. That’s what’s so hilarious aout your condescension. Patronizing dolts are like mimes: fastidiously over-confident showoffs of nonexistent talent. Please, please, please, come attack me. I love easy pickings.
See what I mean? Instapunk is a prime example. Rather than address the issue at hand, he makes vapid generalizations about the left and name calls. Here’s his post in a nutshell: “Liberals hate Christians! You’re Stoopid! Please kick me!!”
Again, funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Thomas says upthread:
“Oh, Jane. Is this really the best you could do? RedDan has been stalking Josh for years now. I mean, comedy-wise, this is hilarious; it’s one of the best extended non-sequiturs I’ve ever seen. But if your intent was to tilt at the windmills of Josh Trevino’s “racism†— good luck there, by the way — was this really the best you could do? Were there no retarded ducks to write this? Or did they cost too much?
To both Jane and RedDan: I owe you both a sincere thanks. It was kind of a glum morning, but man, I laughed so much, I’m ready for a bright, sunshiney day.”
More, please.”
Very well then, here is more: Below, Thomas’ genocidal fantasy about what he would like to do to the American left which he posted on RedState:
“I repeat: Should the entire American Left fall over dead tomorrow, I would rejoice, and order pizza to celebrate. They are not my countrymen; they are animals who happen to walk upright and make noises that approximate speech. They are below human. I look forward to seeing each and every one in Hell.”
No, no, Spartikus, Trevino really is one of the most honest and intelligent conservatives! That’s the problem!
Trevino really is one of the most honest and intelligent conservatives!
And one who seems to have
“>violated his own Terms of Service
If you are concerned about privacy, this email does not have to be in any way traceable to you. We will never use the email you provide here for anything else, ever. All it needs to be is working, and accessible to you, at the time the account is created.
Sorry to see you’ve fallen this far RedDan. This piece is quite dishonest, but you know that. You might ask yourself why you are comfortable trading in that kind of dishonesty, but alas, that would require being honest with yourself. One can always hope though.
BTW, Malta is today one of the most overtly and publicly Christian cultures in the world. It’s a beautiful place, and the people are wonderful. You or Ms. Hamsher should visit there, and perhaps actually study its history; then perhaps you’ll both understand how dumb your comment about Malta was in this context. (Hint – it was never lost)
Fixed link here displaying RedDan’s supposedly private account information.
Instapunk is probably laughing too hard to type an in-depth reply, and not as if he’s obligated to in the first place, JaneKnowles. In between the finger-painted ad hominem by the commenters and the content free parent, there are exactly two prior thoughtful posts in this entire thread, Traveller’s post and RedDan’s reply. The rest of it should be printed by the Republican Party donor flyers with the statement, “These are today’s Democratic Voters.” The rest of it doesn’t qualify as serious and, justly, deserves mocking.
Sheesh.
Choose your targets more carefully. Ill-conceived smears negate the value of other, more accurate critiques.
Though I see from RedDan’s post to CharlesBird that the thoughtfulness is his reply to Traveller is probably just a fluke.
Hi Dan, thanks for the civil reply. There are so many “squishy,” issues floating between us that I’m finding it difficult to respond.
However, I would ask you to consider simply this:
We have both been at this, writing here and there on this subject or that, for a considerable period of time. We’ve seen invective and over the top arguments used for no better purpose than the words flowed from our keyboard and…within the context of what we were writing, the point seemed arguable or even just fun to make.
Historical analogies are made, facts are trotted out…often only to sharpen our own thinking on this issue or that.
It’s fun, it’s part of what we do. And I do give people lots of latitude to have their say. That’s part of being an open minded liberal. Let’s see what people have to say.
I don’t read Red State so I am, to a degree, at a loss to analysis what goes on over there. In this sense you are one up on me, nor do I wish to take the time to wade though Red State.
However, I am pretty familiar with Josh’s writings…and I disagree on a bunch and heap of what he has to say…but I don’t dismiss him just by attaching a label to him, one that I find to be untrue. That’s too easy, it’s almost like intellectual cheating.
I further object to your analysis on Josh because it brings up a host of bad memories. This seems very much like what the Swift Boater’s did to Kerry. And let’s make no mistake, it was that and that alone that caused us to lose the ‘04 election and all that has subsequently flowed from that loss.
I walked the precincts for Move-On, I stood a several polling places passing out literature and trying to talk sense to people before the voted…it was a terrible defeat for me.
Yet, even with that being said, I don’t like seeing my side descend to the same kind of tactics. I object to Character Assassination from the Right as well as from the Left. I think that it is unworthy and bad for the political debate in general.
Still, it was nice talking to you again.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
but I don’t dismiss him just by attaching a label to him
He didn’t. He cited Trevino’s own words, presented links to the full text, and then analysed them.
If you don’t like the conclusions, trying rebutting the latter.
I applaud Firedoglake’s tactic of inviting other prominent members of the left side of the blogosphere to guest comment on the current subject – the right and its inherent racism. I do hope that you invite John Aravosis from Americablog to make a contribution, since his last encounter with racial politics was his intemperate if not crypto-racist comments vis-a-vis the Cynthia McKinney affair a couple of weeks ago. Digby drew parallels between racism/homophobia, a theme that seems right up Mr. Americablog’s alley. You know one of the things I like most about Steve Gilliard is his insistence on handling racism and homophobia as identical evils springing from the same irrational impulses, a stance that I’m sure does not endear him to certain African-Americans who lament their own oppression but are as vicious and hateful as any redneck when they consider gays. Racism, both subtle and overt, is as common among gays as homophobia is among Blacks – a sorry situation that cries out for attention. Until we remedy this situation, I’m afraid lobbing the charges of racism at our political adversaries has the slight scent of hypocrisy.
Hi Macallan…
You can worry about your own self, please. And keep working on that “recognizing humor” thing (regarding Malta).
Chris Sandvik,
It always amazes me when people are surprised that an individual can engage in more than one kind of exchange when dealing with totally different people. Traveller and I have, for a long time, been very similar in our outlooks on many things. He disagrees with me on this, and I have disagreed with him on other things…BirdDog, on the other hand…let’s just say that I converse with people in ways that reflect my feelings about them…don’t you?
Traveller,
Look at the piece. A large percentage of it is composed of extended excerpts of Tacitus’ writing, with links to the original. Those are not my words about Tacitus/Trevino, they are his words about the way he feels and thinks. At a certain point, when a certain volume, consistency, and longevity is reached, it must be assumed that the words written over, and over, and over again are an accurate, crafted, and calibrated expression of one’s beliefs.
As for Tacitus’ posting of that Flickr screenshot?
well, As I commented over on Flickr, and is freely available for anyone to see, when I was a participant at Tacitus, I participated as “RedDaniel” – when I signed up for the scoop Tacitus I was never given a password for “RedDan” and so signed up under RedDaniel instead.
RedDaniel’s comments.
Go look for comments posted by RedDan and you will find none
I wonder who is being dishonest about that little quibble.
Oh, Spartikus, there are plenty enough hot words in Dan’s screed also.
“…excoriation for any ills suffered by American (white) society, and hatred for all that is not perfect in the lives of these small, contemptible people.”
Talk about over the top!
But let’s cut to the nub of it:
And at the root? Racism, fear of the other, and abhorrent justifications of any and every bloody excess simply out of hatred, ignorance, and steroidally-enhanced triumphalism more appropriate to the 13th century than today.”
But what is, “the Other?” Isn’t drawing distinctions between this and that, in other words thinking, the essence of being human?
This group is different than that group, this person is different than that person…I am different than a woman, women are different than me.
Which is not to say that different is bad…but it does very easily lend itself to conflict. And conflicting ideas are not necessarily bad either.
And yet, are we to say that all ideas are equal under the sun? Are we to say there is no objective reason for Conflict between Ideas?
At the most fundamental level, are you saying that I can’t like or dislike this or that person…how he behaves, what he says, how his behavior impacts on my life?
You’re not denying me that right, are you?
I have re-read Dan’s quotes of Josh at you suggestion. They seem to imply a problem with a set of believes and behaviors that at this moment find their locus in Radical Islam.
I don’t see a Racial basis for this…I see it as differing belief systems in conflict.
Now we can attribute this a Clash of Civilizations as does Hunnington, or probably more properly, say this is a distinction between Tribalism and Modernity, Luddites throwing weaving looms in the river…but as with Luddites, conflict there is.
As a good, card carrying liberal/progressive, am I not allowed to not note this conflict and the human cost this entails? Standing up for Liberal principals is a duty, isn’t it?
I’m certainly not saying that Religion of all stripes isn’t often a blight on Humanity, yet still I must recognize it’s power to militate the existential angst of the human condition. So, I understand where the power of religious thought springs…and I still object to Religion and Secular politics being inner-twined.
If I object to the Religious Right’s sway and movement into United States politics, why wouldn’t I, as a Liberal, object to the same happening in the Islamic World?
More to the point, Why wouldn’t you?
This isn’t being Racist, this is being a good Liberal and standing up for progressive principles.
Now you can argue that the French Riots were more about poverty than religion and I might grant you that there is an argument to be made there.
But they were, they existed, and whatever their root causes, I think that discussing them is perfectly legitimate…and can be discussed without calling anyone a Racist.
And so, in the end, here is my primary objection…you’re not talking about what Josh had to say, you’re finding easy cover in what I find to be an intellectually dishonest argument.
These issues are out there in the World and Liberals should have a major say in how they are handled, how they are approached and resolved.
I think it would be beneficial if you directed your thoughts toward this, rather than attacks that in the final analyis don’t move the conversation forward.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Humor is quite easy to recognize RedDan. In this context, for it to be funny, you would have to assert that Josh is so un-traveled or ignorant of history to not know. Since you know this not to be the case for Josh, either you goofed and are too proud to admit it, or you are intentionally being dishonest about Josh to an audience that doesn’t know better.
Ha Ha… now that you mention it, it is funny. Sad. But funny.
I don’t understand why quoting someone at length, in context, is considered “character assasination” by conservatives these days. If some winger wants to go through my posts and comments and point out that I am more in sympathy with communism than capitalism, or that I think the Wampanoags and other First Nations were ill done by the European settlers, pace Roger Williams, or that I focus inordinately on genre fiction and particularly sf – my response would be “And? Do you have a point, or are you just making an observation?”
But then, I began having doubts about my former side, when I noticed that conservative magazines were full of articles talking at length *about* liberals, but rarely a quote *by* one, and when there were, a sentence fragment, often proving to be taken out of context themselves. It seemed intellectually dishonest of us, and I could not understand why the intelligensia of our movement needed to misrepresent our opposition, if indeed we were the Keepers of the Truth.
And calling for a New Crusades – with all that entails, as the chronicler Raymond relates of slaughtered Moslem and Jewish civilians and blood splashed up to the bridles of the Franks’ warhorses – has been part of the academic Christian conservative movement since – well, since Hillaire Belloc, which puts it right about the time that the British discovered oil in Persia.
–Coincidentally.
At the most fundamental level, are you saying that I can’t like or dislike this or that person…how he behaves, what he says, how his behavior impacts on my life?
You’re not denying me that right, are you?
Um, by changing the focus away from “group” to a “individual” you are changing the argument, and you really should address the argument made. In fact, your entire response can be characterized this way. See RedDan’s comment here. Particularily:
I am a bit shocked that you cannot see the fundamental difference between a) Identifying and hashing out problems inherent in varying interpretations of religion or b) condemning, wholesale, adherents to that religion as “the enemy†threatening to destroy “european identity.â€
More, please.
Thomas — as you wish.
Traveller,
I have re-read Dan’s quotes of Josh at you suggestion. They seem to imply a problem with a set of believes and behaviors that at this moment find their locus in Radical Islam.
Except where Josh dispenses with your arguement. In his own words:
“Some would have it that the foe is political Islam; others a radical Islam; others a national or cultural stridency in which Islam is merely an incidental tool; still others a false Islam.”
And later in the same piece:
“And certainly we can say who, if not what, threatens us: people who identify as Muslim, and are prepared to do violence to that end.”
Couple that with all the other bits about Islam, specifically: “Islam is truly the enduring challenge of and to European identity.”
And I really have trouble understanding where the interpretation comes from.
I don’t see a Racial basis for this…I see it as differing belief systems in conflict.
Ok, so you want a strict and narrow definition of “Racist”? Well, there is a problem – first, there is no strict, narrow, or scientifically testable definition of “Race” as yet. Second, I have read and heard, in any number of cases, Anti-Jewish rhetoric called racism. Well, are Jews a “race”? I am Jewish, and I do not know the answer. Do you?
But, if you want “racist” to apply only to those who abuse, discriminate, or call for eliminiation or subjugation of those who are of different color…
Then perhaps “Bigot” will suit your fancy better?
Because the language used in an overwhelming number of places on the topic of Islam, Dhimmitude, Muslims, and on and on and on…is, to be blunt, crazed.
Here’s a little “gedankenexperiment” for you, Traveller: Go through the excerpts I posted…or go back to their source, as you prefer…and do a global replace of Muslim with Jew, of Islam with Judaism…and see what it starts to look like, and understand why one might get a bit “concerned” about the prominence of such rhetoric.
For you to be concerned about the rise of radical rightwing religious movements in ANY faith is perfectly fine by me – I join you in your concern.
For you to use the example of Pat Robertson to ruminate about how all Christians are “the enemy” about how they represent a threat to “modern culture” and to play little thought games about various “solutions” to the problem of conflict between Christians and Modernity…up to and including genocide?
That’s nuts. Right?
And oh, for Macallan: The Arabs ruled Malta from 870-1090 A.D. Funnily enough, Malta is Christian today because the Arabs were tolerant of the inhabitants faith.
Dear Dan and Others:
At least we are discussing the issues. But alas, I must work…
Thanks, Maybe later,
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Malta is Christian today because the Arabs were tolerant of the inhabitants faith.
Yeah right sparti, that must be it, tolerance was the key. Or wait, 1090AD you say? Hmmm, rings a bell. Gosh, what started around 1090?
It’s on the tip of my tongue…
Oh well, maybe I’ll think of it later.
Nah, must have been that tolerance you were talking about.
“At least we are discussing the issues. But alas, I must work…”
Second that. Discourse, done well.
Macallan,
You’re outclassed.
Apparently, you can’t even be bothered to check wikipedia..sheesh.
As for what started around 1090…Gee…the first crusade started in what, 1095?
I have to say that I agree with traveler take on the issue at hand. I have posted on many sites and do not see the solutions to our problems in the world as being able to be solved by a left right divide.
I have just read a book by Sam Harris that really drops this issue on its head that being the whole issue of Islam and racism.
His book will not make anyone on either side of the debate happy but I find it hard to disagree with the evidence presented. It collectively takes on faith itself and the liberal notion of tolerance and the true cost of that view in regard to faith.
http://www.samharris.org/
He show the failure of Islam and Christianity along with judaism and the secular left. In many regards he faults our not demanding truth above all else.
Now I am pretty left on almost every issue you can think of. I disagree with much of what josh believes but in as far as Josh’s views of modern Islam. I am only in disagreement because I think that it is possible that josh does not use the same critical eye towards other belief systems. As for all the other personal and shrill left and right issues I will leave those to people who want to waste their time with blame and not workable solutions to real problems.
Still Except for the shrill attack politics love the site and information even if it is not always the whole picture. As for this Dan I don’t believe it is a true or honest view of josh.
Real racism is alive and well and this is a stretch even for the most partisan posters.
Disagree all you want but use honest attacks on the weakness of the argument. The personal is not something that merits this and even if you believe your rhetoric and out of context examples a real long term balance of the writing is a better standard.
Good luck in the future and I hope to see you post soon on a topic of more merit and use less emotion and more logic.
RedDan,
You misspelled “outclowned”.
I have posted on many sites and do not see the solutions to our problems in the world as being able to be solved by a left right divide.
Well Davinci, since Josh Trevino actively stokes that right-left divide (he’d be out of a job if it ever went away), I’m sure we’ll be hearing your voice in condemnation. For example, when he decrys liberals and their “bottomless opposition to parents“. (A post of which rightly won awards)
I am only in disagreement because I think that it is possible that josh does not use the same critical eye towards other belief systems.
Oh no no…he doesn’t just fail to cast a critical eye at other faiths…he actively embraces Christian extremism. What do you think Enchiridion Militis is about anyway? Have a wander through the archives. Careful…there will be a test later!
out of context examples
Here’s an idea: if it’s out of context, perhaps you could set us straight where RedDan goes wrong. With examples.
Think of it as a small step towards healing the great national divide.
No one can outclown you, Macallan. I’ll gladly concede.
Wingnut:
Funny, what happened to “Old Europe?”
Or for that matter, the first treaty the US ever signed? The surest sign, for me, that this neuconservatism is alien to American culture and history is that America has historically had excellent relations with Islamic nations. That only changed when the oil-crazed fascists started running policy.
Or to put it another way, one of the first things the nascent American government did was to make it absolutely clear that Europe’s old enemy is not ours.
sparti you are obviously too modest.
And you have much to be modest about.
You are quite correct sparti.
None of this detracts form the indisputable point that Jane Hamsher was labeling Domenech a “racist” and a “bigot” based on a completely moronic and illiterate misreading of a Domenech post that simply quoted another post from Richard Neuhaus that was clearly satirical and sarcastic. Neuhaus was making fun of the theory that abortion reduces crime, and was doing so in the manner of Swift’s “Modest Proposal.” (Does anyone still recognize that title? Probably not.)
Neither Neuhaus, nor Domenech, meant to suggest that abortion of blacks is a good thing. Quite the opposite. That’s why Neuhaus went on to say — now in serious mode — “What is morally odious is the cool and disinterested way in which the commentariat is discussing what might fairly be described as racial cleansing.”
Niels,
The assertion underlying that “modest proposal” was that reducing the black population would reduce crime.
That assertion is both racist and inaccurate.
It is also based on a study of economic in freakonomics a book that was on the best seller list. I am not one to downplay the possible racism but issue was about abortion and crime if I recall and the posts on the topic were more anti-choice than racist or in fact were making the same point. Still as a pro-choice supporter I am not one to think that this view is a good narative on the issue.
The assertion underlying that “modest proposal†was that reducing the black population would reduce crime. That assertion is both racist and inaccurate.
FYI, Steven Levitt — a celebrated economist — had written that IN THE PAST, crime was reduced because because poor (read: black) women got lots of abortions. Neuhaus’s point was that while this might be accurate,* it is a “morally odious” way of thinking. So it sounds as if you AGREE with Neuhaus (and Domenech, who merely quoted him).
* Note: I accept that it would be racist to argue — right now — that aborting black babies today would prevent crime in the future: There’s no way to know what those black babies would have done. Maybe the black crime rate will drop in the future. Who knows. But as to the PAST, which is what Levitt’s research concerned, the logic is fairly straightforward. For the past 30 years, blacks did commit much more crime (8 times the murder rate, for example). That’s not disputable. So it’s straightforward to assume that abortion would have reduced the number of criminals. Again, Neuhaus’s whole point is that this is an ODIOUS suggestion. If you can’t tell that, you can’t read. (Neither can Jane, obviously).
I’m glad to see you’re still paying attention, Davinci. Perhaps you could answer my question above?
…is that Tacitus fellow can really phrase an argument. See here, from comment #35 in the thread where Tacitus and Red argue it out and Tacitus writes:
“# A disturbing number of Jews want you dead.
# A disturbing number of Muslims want you dead.
Reasonable people would look at the first, and scoff at its absurdity: there is no evidence whatsoever that meaningfully large numbers of Jews want anyone dead. By contrast, we have ample evidence that meaningfully large numbers of Muslims want a great many people dead. Swapping nouns matters.”
In this sense, Tacitus is dangerous, though I mean this in the best way possible. He can reason, he can argue, he can sway people if only because what he says contains…what at least appears to be true and will resonate across a broad spectrum of the population.
I disagree with Josh pitying Dan and all That verbiage…but then, I figure that this is personal between them and so I let it go.
I fail to see where Dan has yet to address the manifest militant tendencies in Islam except to say the vast majority do not harbor such hateful feelings…which is a true point, except when you start doing even small percentage multiples across a Billion people…there is a problem.
And it is this cedeing the argument, and hence potential solutions, to Tacitus, a reasonable Conservative if ever I saw one, that is even worse than a surrender of liberalism, it is a mistake.
Or, as the Scolars have noted about the assassination of Caesar:
“The act of assassination was not only a crime, it was a mistake.”
The precepts and principles of Liberal thought, even Liberal Theology if you like, have much to say in what may prove to be the largest challenge of our lifetimes, much as the now exposed evils of Communism was to the last generation, (well, actually my generation, but that is a nit and a quibble…lol).
I still cannot understand why Dan does not accept the premise that Islam presents a challenge to the West and, equally important, to itself.
The Religous Wars that left Europe awash in blood from about the 1400’s through the 17th century gives us ample data to work with. Catholic against Protestant and Protestant against Catholic in England, the French slaughter of the Hugonotts, the Spanish Inquisition, the Thirty Years War with and in Germany…we’ve been there, we’ve seen the rivers of misery that Religious Wars bring.
It may even be some collective Jungian memory of all this that causes Dan to shy away from what seems to be obvious questions. I resent Dan turning argument toward personal issues when there are real ones to confront from a Liberal perspective that may have had some meaning in the real world.
For example, in the run up to the Current Iraqi conflict, instead of a blanket objection to the war in general, (though I concede not necessarily a bad argument in and of itself) I think that all of us, neo-cons included, would have benefitted from an argument directed toward, “How do we keep Iraq a secular society? Can we keep Iraq a secular nation as it currently, by in large, is?”
The separation of Church and State, the maintaining of a Religious free Government, is a Liberal touch stone. I think that Liberal had much to add to this question, but we did not, at least to my knowledge, address this in a meaningful way.
Our failure. Dan’s failure, my failure, (though in my defense, I have long written that Democracy was just a word, and not much good would come out of it without a civil and largely secular society underpinning it).
This was a failure of Liberal/Progressive thought and an abdication within the Liberal community to engage in the political process on behalf of, not only what we belive in, but more importantly, what we are good at.
I could give a half dozen other examples where Liberal thought would be of inestimable value in current foreign policy debates. But we don’t make them, instead we Liberals are stuck in the Battles already largely won, battles of the 60’s and the 70’s if you like.
We decry Racism at home, though while still a problem, this is only a vestige of what it once was. We argue woman’s rights, which is not an argument that we shouldn’t be making, but we largely ignore this issue as it applies outside of the West.
We call Bush genocidal, but largely ignore what Arab and Islamic governments are doing in furtherance of their wholesale slaughters in Northeast Africa.
The mind weeps and the body trembles for the injustices in this world.
And Liberals prattle and fuss over…not meaningless issues, but not the central concerns of our age.
I suppose I even know why Dan does not apply Liberal thought and precepts to these large questions. He simply doesn’t like where this line of thought will take him…what his own avowed principles will force on him.
But he should get on the train, IMHO, it is leaving the station and the trip will be all the poorer for all of us without his active help.
Cross posted to Tacitus and Firedoglake
Best Wishes,
Traveller
You’re beneath my contempt.
The feeling is mutual, motherfucker.
spartikus you should know that I do not support any of The view you state above and in some respect this is a failure of my writing ability. I tend to not proof well or take the time to reread my posts. Time and school prevent it and me being lazy at times. Traveller does a much better job of writing in a way that I view the issue of this post. I almost never agree with Tacitus on his social conservative issues. I find many of them to be less than moral coming from his tenet of faith over What I would call empirical evidence. His beliefs on abortion and many other topics have a hard time standing my own moral view of the world. On the issues of racism and Islam I am questioning the debate and wondering if Islam is able to stand the moral tenets of enlightened values of free speech (Dutch comics) I do not single out Islam but linked to the book I recommend anyone to read and square their own personal circle of faith in that which is unprovable. I hold all faiths ideological absolutes to this same standard. I just don’t buy that Josh is racist because he pointed out what he personally views as DR. kings failings. I might disagree and probably do I just don’t feel that mock outrage in fact deals with the real problems in our world. I also view josh as the proprietor and founder of Tacitus. I personally disagree with his tone at times but not the community and the way that people are allowed to debate if they follow the rules. Racism is in fact not something tolerated and josh when time permits shows this with his scorn and deeds. I will admit that being relatively new in the sites history my view is only a short one and heavy handedness might have been true at one time.
So is there many things to attack josh on as a liberal/Progressive/Radical-moderate you bet this just seems not one. In honesty I have never been a fan of red state and know little of what Ben wrote or believed. I would assume it is free market GOP talking points and social conservatism. I have issues with what people deem as free markets and think that without regulation you would not have anything that resembles free-markets I also think that if you do not factor in labor and human rights that markets are inhuman. I also have little use for conservative religious dogmatism.
Still if I were to rank issue that need addressing They would be less ideological but would have to be compromises.
In no true order:
Reform of the UN
The enviroment and energy solutions for the future
Our own deficits and the impact on mine and the next generation.
The problems with radical faith systems and the threat they have to global health.
Global human rights and the ability of the west or first world to deal with so many issues.
Health care reform be it insurance based single payer or universal in nature.
All the issues of science and faith
Education and media reform
Attacking partisan hacks of all stripes with non-sequesters
Dan, People Matter, People Trying to Make a Difference…
…this is not the most important story of the day, but it is from today and so I pass it along to you as an object lesson of where our efforts sould be directed.
People helping people, people trying to bring change…Good on them is all I can say.
We should all be doing the same.
http://www.emailthis.clickabil…..3&pt=Y
If CNN makes you watch a 10 second commercial, you’ll live though it, and besides…she’s pretty…lol
Cross Posted to Tacitus and FDL
Best Wishes,
Travaeller
Traveller: Reading Red Dan’s parent post I have a hard time believing he believes in anything you would recognize as liberal ideology except as platitudes. The Left doesn’t advocate Liberalism anymore because it doesn’t advocate reason anymore. This series of guest essays is nothing but propagandistic emotionalism.
Hi Chris, thanks for responding. There may be an element of truth in what you say…and yet, there may be a duty on my part to try to engage the far left.
People matter,they matter also…and, as a rule, they are smart.
Real best wishes to you Chris,
Traveller
I know this is difficut for you to wander into this…hmmm, how did you put it….”barren desert of actual thought” but so far it’s you, Traveller, in your “engagement” which has consisted of nothing more than avoiding the issue at hand, that has failed to offer any actual…ooo…what’s the word I’m looking for…ah, yes..”evidence”.
By contrast, we have ample evidence that meaningfully large numbers of Muslims want a great many people dead.
By contrast, this is an example of an unsupported statement. What is your evidence for this? Without it, it’s fearmongering and bigotry. Shame.
You know, a question has been asked of you and Davinci several times now. Yet it remains unanswered.
Your little “I’m a healer” schtick – which you’ve done for years – is transparent. Funny, you never actually seem to condemn anyone on the right. Wonder why that is….
Funny, you never actually seem to condemn anyone on the right.
Why would you condemn someone who is right?
Dear spartikus:
I have addressed the issue of the day ad nauseam.
I disagree with much of what Tacitus writes. I do not consider him a racist. I’ve spelled it out. I’ve given my reasons.
You disagree, fine. People are allowed to disagree.
But aren’t you tired of being marginalized? Aren’t you tired of losing elections, largely due to some perceived ideological purity?
Bigotry? I don’t think so. Seeing is what is important. The new story of the day:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a…..32,00.html
I don’t like these kind of stories and I could give you a dozen every day.
This troubles me, and it should trouble you also.
Condemn people? I obviously do, but by in large I try to understand people…Even this Turkish shooter.
It is you that is avoiding the issue, the elephant in the room, and what should be the Liberal response.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
Dear spartikus:
I might add as a parenthetical thought that swopa has a pretty nice post on page one concerning Iran.
However, since it is pretty much in accord with my thinking on the matter…I don’t have anything to add.
Which is not to say that there isn’t a heap and a bushel of objectionable things about Iran…but bombing it is no solution.
Best Wishes,
Traveller
I have addressed the issue of the day ad nauseam.
Oh don’t fool yourself. Anyone who is still paying attention has had to endure airy-fairy adolescent musings that dodge and weave the question from you. I take it this is your final answer, to which I can only conclude you are a bigot.
Btw, I can come up with hundreds of anecedotal stories – an example of which would be the story you just cited – on almost any subject. By themselves, they’re meaningless.
I might add as a parenthetical thought that swopa has a pretty nice post on page one concerning Iran.
Do you know how to link? Learn.
Dear spartikus:
Testy, today, hun? Sorry to hear That.
So, if we don’t agree on something, I’m a bigot? Well, truth be told, I suppose there is some of that in most human beings, myself included.
It tends to grow, willy-nilly, out of the human condition despite our best efforts.
Regarding my repeated examples, yes, they are anecedotal, but they do start adding up to a weight of some measurarble quanity.
But don’t you wonder why people are the way they are? What motivated the Turkish kid to kill his sister, and why would the family, as well as that community where they lived, cheer for the killer’s light sentence, and seemingly not morn the death of the sister?
It is all a mystery to me…but interesting.
(This will sound agressive and argumenative, but I don’t mean it that way), And yet, if there is enough of these individual incidents, doesn’t this somethwere lend itself to the thought that maybe the problem is structural, within the community?
Well, it’s a shame that we have been talking past one another. But you are right, we are not getting anywhere, even in common understanding of one another…I was kind of curious Who you were, why you thought the way you did…what made you the way you are?
But here is another example of why the written word often fails us…the above doesn’t sound good either.
Well, it was ment kindly.
Be Good,
Traveller