
Catching up on all things Libby and Traitorgate, there are a few quick matters of housekeeping in this case that I wanted to bring to everyone’s attention.
Jeralyn caught up with the media subpoenas which have gone out from Team Libby:
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00123-RBW: NBC NEWS & AFFILIATES
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00124-RBW: MATTHEW COOPER
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00125-RBW: JUDITH A. MILLER
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00126-RBW: ANDREA MITCHELL
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00127-RBW: TIM RUSSERT
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00128-RBW: TIME, INCORPORATED
CASE #: 1:06-mc-00129-RBW: NEW YORK TIMES COMPANY
Well, not any huge surprises here in terms of media subpoenas, although I do wonder about people not on the initial list (Pincus, anyone? Woodward, even?). We knew Andrea Mitchell would eventually have to explain, under oath, her wacky comments on MSNBC and then the corporate take back of said comments. Media attorneys have until April 18th, 2006, to file any motions to quash the subpoenas (meaning they have until that date to fight having to produce any documents or other evidence as requested by Libby’s subpoena) and hearings on those motions have been set for May 5, 2006, at 1:30 pm, so mark your calendars if this is of interest. (Jeralyn has included the Judge’s order in her post — worth a read.)
The Judge in the Libby case issued a Memorandum Opinion on April 5, 2006 (PDF via Tom Maguire), regarding the issue of ex parte submissions by the government to the Court for consideration regarding classified matters that the government wants to keep classified — either as a refusal to turn over the documents entirely to the defense or regarding portions of documents which the government desires be redacted before defense counsel gets them in discovery.
An ex parte submission means that one party submits the information to the judge, but the party on the other side does not get to see that information unless and until the judge says they are allowed to do so. Courts try to limit this as much as possible because of the obvious one-sided nature of the discussion and the risk of bias against the other side. Let alone the risks inherent in keeping material from being tested by both sides in a trial.
Jeralyn hits on a point that Team Libby wins on: they are authorized to submit a brief to the Judge outlining their thoery of the case for the defense, which essentially gives the Judge a road map to what Libby’s strategy will be at trial. This will allow the Judge to keep this in mind when reviewing ex parte submissions from Fitz as to whether or not an order of disclosure would be material to Libby’s defense and whether it would be appropriate.
I think this is both a blessing and a curse, in a lot of respects. I’m assuming that the Judge will allow for an amended filing, should additional evidence or theories arise as Team Libby goes through the discovery given to them by the government. But in filing a brief like this, as a defendant you necessarily limit yourself to what your lawyers are looking at for your particular case. When you leave something like this to a judge’s discretion, especially one who is well-versed in trial proceedings and has been on the bench for a while, sometimes their understanding can be broader than an attorney who has tunnel vision with their own set of facts. Libby’s attorneys are highly qualified and very experienced, so it is unlikely they will fall into the tunnel vision mindset, but even the best of attorneys can get a bit myopic when they are living and breathing a case day in and day out with motion production and can miss something.
It will depend on how heavily the Judge relies solely on Team Libby’s representations and how carefully those representations are crafted as to how this can favor or limit Libby down the road. (And this is not something new — this sort of thing has occurred before in high level security clearance cases. See US v. Poindexter, 732 F. Supp. 142 (DDC 1990) as one example — sorry couldn’t find a link on this case, if anyone can locate a good one, I’ll link it up.)
That said, the rest of the opinion is pretty much a win for Fitz’s team — which, given the CIPA regs and the allowance for ex parte submissions even in Rule 16, wasn’t exactly a shocker. This was always going to be a tough argument for Libby to come anywhere close to winning, let alone getting anywhere with it at all. And basically, he doesn’t.
As looseheadprop said in the comments yesterday:
The juges decision which Christy will digest for us tomorrow is in response to some really bullshit carping about Fitz filing thing ex parte (the judge can read it but the defense cannot) and filing things underseal. One of their arguements in their motion was that the American people have the right to know what’s going on in this case.
So, the judge acknowledges that Fitz cannot be prevented from filing ex parte or under seal, but if the court feels it’s being done unfairly or abused, the documents will be unsealed by the court. All good.
It gets better, the the judge asks all “pretty please” would Fitz TRY not to file anything under seal if he can avoid it.
Well, the way you avoid it is by letting whatever parts of it you want to be public! ANd the defense can’t complained because they demanded it.
The snark of it all. The glorious irony! I love irony.
Honestly, Libby can’t exactly complain that the Presidential Daily Briefing is held close to the vest, given that his prior boss, Dick Cheney, referred to it as the "family jewels."
Even though the President and the Veep clearly treated some of the family jewels like they were only so much cubic zirconia when they sent Scooter to pass them around to his galpal Judy. Just because they hold national security secrets as their own personal political football to do with as they will, while holding other matters equally classified even from Congress because they might make the Administration look bad — it doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t have some respect for the principles involved in this process, does it?
All in all, I think it’s a more than fair ruling. The Judge allows Team Libby to lay out for him what they are looking for from Fitz in discovery. This gives the Judge a better eye toward what ought to remain calssified, and what he might want to consider more closely as he weighs both sides of the argument. To get to that, however, the Judge must first make a determination of materiality overall — and that is really going to get to the heart of things for Team Libby.
My guess is that this Judge runs a tight ship in court. He’s going to allow Libby some room, but will not allow him to just shove forward random theories in an effort to confuse the jury. Libby is charged with perjury (2 counts), false statements to the FBI investigators (2 counts) and obstruction (five felony counts total). He ought not have a kitchen sink defense strategy, but should be required to stay within his indictment parameters.
Thus far, I haven’t seen anything that this Judge has done that says to me Libby will be allowed to do anything other than that. And looseheadprop is correct in saying that Team Libby has now opened the door a bit wider for Fitz in terms of what he will and will not be legally allowed to release to the public. Which is all the better for those of us who follow this case closely. More information is always better for our speculative purposes, isn’t it? But it’s not necessarily better for Libby — and as this week showed, it’s also not necessarily better for the Bush Administration.
Could be a bumpy ride…
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Fitz!
Although the really interesting part in all of this is happening as testimony, pleadings, and filings get made public. Who knows what other fabulous revelations Scooter had in his Grand Jury testimony? Or what other priceless gems will come out during discover?
they don’t want pincus because they don’t want the connection between ari’s conversation w/him or libby to get flushed out.
Pincus is so connected I wouldn’t be surprised if he and Fitz talk from time to time.
Do we know haw many ex parte submissions or when they were done or ANY information regarding them? No leaks? Nothing?
the ari libby connection is going to blow the ‘i didn’t remember plame’ theory right out the window, and pincus is the proof in the puddin on that one. imho
Wow. A bumpy ride indeed. It still sticks in my craw, though, that Novak just sails along, scot-free.
Cal — I’m not sure how much grassroots participation is needed, just interest, and that’s there, I think, despite all the incredible goings-on at the moment. Or maybe because of. But there’s also this focal pt., Las Vegas, coming up, so I think the interest thing is ok. I agree about the email, and also Jane said something about Dark Black, so perhaps you could ask her or Christy to hook us up at least, and then we could talk to Dark Black if it looks like this thing is feasible. I’m going to be tied up possibly the rest of the day, but will check in whenever I can, and I’ve got at least some of the visuals floating around in my mind…
I love looseheadprop’s parting shot – the irony of it all is glorious. The more Scooter’s team demands, the more they get it. Thanks again Christy and looseheadprop and all you lawyers out there, for parsing the motions so carefully for us.
Can any of you lawyers recommend some easy legal textbooks for non-lawyers? I want to learn to think and read like you guys.
Excellent post – Thanks.
OT – In Lieberman news, he is having several public events tomorrow, Sunday, in CT. Atrios has all the info up on his website. Atrios is encouraging people to go and ask Lieberman if he was at the recent meetings with Bush regarding the possibility of a nuclear attack no Iran, as reported by Sy Hersh.
I would also add to that an additional question, which is why he hasn’t said jack about Bush’s leak of the NIE, when he was the first democrat to step forward and criticize Clinton during the Monica era.
This post is more germane to the previous thread, but here goes. It’s about more Homeland Security shenanigans in Florida.
A local school employee said a rough run-in with a couple of Homeland Security officers has left him with a strong sense of insecurity.
Leander Pickett, a teacher’s assistant at Englewood Elementary, said he was manhandled and handcuffed by two plain clothed Homeland Security officers in front of the school Tuesday for no reason at all.
[snip]
…Tuesday afternoon…as Pickett was directing bus traffic, he said he was handcuffed and roughed up and humiliated by the very people that were supposed to protect him.
“I walked up to him and said, ‘Sir, you need to move.’ That’s when he said ‘I’m a police officer. I’m with Homeland Security … I’ll move it when I want to.’ That’s when he started grabbing me on my arm,” Pickett said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/wjxt/2…..xt/3379371
Apparently this all took place in front of the kids, who were quite upset.
Wayne Madsen, old curmudgeon that he is, wonders why the officers were even at a local elementary school. Looking for terrorists, obviously.
BTW do Homeland Security officers wear brown shirts? That would look very comely indeed.
ReddHedd – Could you give Dannyboy my email address? We are exploring a EFU/FDL Mug/T-shirt/Sweatshirt/Bumpersticker thingy. Maybe for Las Vegas? I forgot your email addr.
OT – Avedon Carol at the “Sideshow” reminds us of the “huge uproar” in Congress and the media that time Bob Barr did this:
“In the annals of congressional arrogance, Barr is a repeat offender. In 1998, The New York Times reported an incident in which Barr slapped a female security guard at the airport, after which his wife summarized her view of airport security: “They were all from other countries, and they were talking about me in their language…I thought, ‘Hey, this is my country.’”
xyz, 9:
Please, Sen. Lieberman (like Brutus) is a man of honor. The moment Bush gets caught receiving oral service in the WH (by other whan you know who), Lieberman would criticize him too. He is if nothing else, fair and impartial.
dannyboy – Grassroots from the financial point, maybe. It will take several thousand to get it off the ground. Gulp. I don’t have it all myself.
kudos also to xyz who was on it fast before today : “So each time Libby makes a discovery request, for any purpose, he has to live in fear that Fitz might decide that he has something responsive that also just so happens to be incredibly politically damaging to Bush.”
Today’s Oregonian makes me smile. The layout for the Leaker in Chief article occupies 80% of the front page, which is great. What makes it is the 3 large blown up facial photos of a worried Libby, a Bush about to swallow a fly, and a redeyed Scottie McClellan displaying his bovine look.
OT: a little more Box Turtle Ben news- seems the WaPo has had a love affair of sorts with Ben for quite a while and they still have some explaining to do.
At least they are going to hire a liberal blogger too, this time around. Looks like all the letters, emails and blog posts paid off! Particularly the work of Jane and Christy who didn’t let up on this issue.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0407.html
Muzzy,
On behalf of the cows that I walk past on a daily basis I wish to protest against your gratuitoulsy offensive comparison. Now if you’d said a baboon’s backside that’d have been fine ;-)
The January 24 Document
by emptywheel
“Of course! Don’t you get it? Grover’s Mill, November 1, 1938 … 30 days has September April June and, November … October 31, 1938 in Grover’s Mill New Jersey. Orson Welles, War of the World, Don’t you get it?
[My very bad transcription from memory of Jeff Goldblum’s lines from Buckaroo Banzai remembering the date of the War of the Worlds broadcast]
I read Fitzgerald’s latest response while jetlagged, so had totally forgotten the big mystery from it, the document mentioned in this passage, until pollyusa reminded me of in the comments….”
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c…..l#comments
Stacy B. – Yes, looks like the WaPo published some of little ben’s hate when he was only 13.
Please…I beg of you all to please stop it with the ‘first post game’ of “fitz” or whatever. It is an embarrassment to our blogisphere. Please, goddamnit, stop it.
Emptywheel has some more good Fitz filing review at kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/12242/09576
embarrassment to whom?
Maybe Wayne Madsen didn’t read the article carefully enough. Apparently the officers were at the elementary school because they were, in typical DHS fashion, lost.
They were trying to figure out where they were. They pulled over (having gone the wrong way past a “No Entry” sign) in order to look at a map. Does it go without saying that the guy they handcuffed is black? I suspected that much the minute I figured out that this happened in Florida, but it can be verified by viewing the interview. Anybody feel safer now?
I suppose we should be grateful they (presumably) weren’t there to ogle kids…
Kitt, it’s just a bit of fun. If it embarrasses Jane or Christy, then they’ll let us know. Barring that, just try to ignore it and enjoy the top-notch writing and commenting here. Really, it’s a small price to pay.
embarrassment to whom?
Embassment to anyone who wants to conduct an intelligent converation. It’s stupid and juvinile to rush to the ‘first post’. It’s annoying to be subjected to, and have to wade through such childish shit on a grown up’s forum. Get it?
BTW Kitt, I’ve stopping Fitzing. After I got three Fitz’s in one day, (including a limerick Fitz) I decided to step aside and let the kids have a go at it. ;)
FItz!!!
I love to be fitz at the quarter-century mark, or close to it. New tradition? :)
california_reality_check 11
a coffee mug you can waer and stick on your car? sign me up for one of those!
orangejumpsuit 10
why is all this homeland security nuttiness happening in Florida?
I think the only reason we aren’t already in a bonecrushing dictatorship is because that requires a certain degree of administrative and organizational make-the-trains-run-on-time ability that this adminstration totally lacks.
Kitt, it’s just a bit of fun. If it embarrasses Jane or Christy, then they’ll let us know. Barring that, just try to ignore it and enjoy the top-notch writing and commenting here. Really, it’s a small price to pay.
I’m not making demands, obviously, I’m stating my opinion. Maybe it was “just a bit of fun” for awhile. Now it’s just stupid.
actually, it’s a mocking, a lampooning of that indeed stupid practice of posting “first” done elsewhere. If you’ve been watching, we have often gone beyond a simple Fitz. Feingold gets invoked recently. After one article about Dobson, I even posted “Jesus, Joseph and Mary” at the top of the comments…
Kitt, you must chill. It’s a goddamned tradition. Why do you hate our traditions? Why do you hate our freedoms? Why?
If we cease starting the threads with “fitz,” then the terrorists win. It’s that simple.
Yes, well, I’m not digging it and I doubt that I am the only one. I’ve said my piece.
Kitt I agree it’s childish and annoying there’s that, there’s one poster who lurks and frantically posts “turd” on the third post and contributes damn all else. But I simply block them out. The rest of what goes on here compensates for it IMO
… and forever hold your piece
off-topic, sort of:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0408.html
London paper to expose the identities of the Niger forgers … “two employees of an embassy in Italy”.
Unless RS is messing up the syntax, this would mean that it wasn’t forged by Italians, right?
Kitt, fair enough. I appreciate your opinion and you’re welcome to post it. And yeah, you’re not the only one who’s brought this up, I’ve seen others mention it. But for the most part, the FAR (”Fitzing Approval Rating”) is high enough to warrant staying the course. If it drops below 40%, we’ll ignore it. Just like the President.
:)
Let’s see where this leads…
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0408.html
Test
I apologize for this being OT but I need to say it and then can maybe get on with my day. I would appreciate if FDL would have a discussion about the potential US bombing of Iran. I believe that this is something that will happen in the next two weeks while Congress is away and that only leaves the military to say NO. I want the military to at least hear that there are Americans that STRONGLY BELIEVE this to be the most horrible thing we could do. We need to tell them that they are not alone in wanting this insanity to stop. I am no longer religious but ferverently pray that they will do the right thing and just say NO.
Thanks for reading….
I’ve been reading this blog regularly for over a year, posting once in a blue moon, but I have to say to Kitt:
a) there are a lot worthier things to get aggravated about in this world (as the Busheviks remind us daily) than a harmless invocation of Himself at the beginning of a thread, and
b) let the kids have their fun – where’s the harm?
If it was the Italians who forged the Niger documents, they had an agenda besides simply cashing in on forgeries. There are neocon Fascists over there as well.
http://tinyurl.com/a6erq
… and forever hold your piece
I hardly think so.
I know that there is a great deal to appreciate on this board, as some of you have pointed out in reply to my comments on this ‘first post’ crap. I don’t see how that makes any case in the negative to what I have opened up. We all know this is a great site and that Christy and Jane and some other bloggers here are tremendous posters with wonderfully informative words for us all to take to the bank.
That’s irrelevant to my point and the issue I brought forth.
for Pete’s sake, Fitz is one of the very few employees of the US government who is actually doing his job–so yeah, Fitz!
25: who you callin’ a grownup? them’s some fightin’ words…. *g*
Me3! You made it!
the Niger forgeries story to be broken in the London Sunday Times? It’ll be Sunday in London in less than four hours … I guess I’ll have to start watching their website.
Talk about highjackin’ a thread, Kitt….
FWIW, the Leaker-in-Chief didn’t look too happy yesterday at a public announcement where he ignored reporters asking if he ordered Scooter to leak. Rove apparently has decided on the “it was legal” strategy, but denying Bush authorized the leaking of Plame’s name. I wonder if the Leaker-in-Chief is sufficiently disengaged to rebel and say, “I never ordered anyone to leak anything.” This would risk catapulting Libby into a plea deal, but Bush has this “I never made a mistake” thing down pat. Here’s to hoping.
psychohistorian:
The next post up will be a specific call to activism we planned to roll out today in preparation for the week ahead. I agree the Iran story is important and deserves coverage. For all I know, Jane may plan to bring it up later.
Having said that, there’s no way this blog can cover all major issues, and we don’t try to. Thankfully, there are many terrific sites out there covering things we don’t. Whenever we feel we have a unique perspective or point to make, we make it.
Thanks for the good natured suggestion!
“…hearings on those motions have been set for May 5, 2006, at 1:30 pm…”
I know it’s probably a long shot, but is there any chance these hearings might be televised?
Thank you Christy – as I know you can’t compile this sort of thoughtful analysis out in a just few minutes. You are really helping so many people to understand a process which would otherwise seem like a total morass.
In the meantime, I am getting really freaked out by these wag the dog in Iran scenarios. As an aside, I spent almost a month in Oz Down Under in Jan-Feb of this year, and everyone there was asking me if Bush was really going to attack Iran. I couldn’t really figure out what they were talking about, but it was a big thing in there press so I figured something must have gone down after I left. So I came back, and it was like Iran was barely barely on the media, public consciousness radar screen – and then all of the sudden Sy Hersh writes and article and its all over the news?
What is wrong with us? It takes Sy many months to write an article. This isn’t “new” news. The Ozzies seemed to know all about it. At least they were all talking about it.
So then I read this:
One former defense official, who still deals with sensitive issues for the Bush Administration, told me that the military planning was premised on a belief that “a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government.†He added, “I was shocked when I heard it, and asked myself, ‘What are they smoking?’ †[my emphasis]
I am sorry Christy, as I don’t want to distract from the wonderful and important work you are doing, but if Plamegate is about anything, it is about a kind of arrogance I thought I would never see in my life and a horrific abuse of power. And now they are talking about dropping NUCLEAR weapons in Iran? I wasn’t this terrified during the Reagan era (remember the madness of MADD?)
I hope the generals rise up and rebel. Never in my wildest imaginings did I ever think I would ever resort to relying on the military for sanity. I am sorry for every meanspirited and snarky thing I ever said about a man or woman in uniform. I am serious. Because if people in Washington don’t get some spine real fast, they are going to try to wag a nuclear dog to “cover” for their little Libby “booboo.”
As for all the months and months of planning? Well, you know that they have known that it was only a matter of TIME when (not if) Bush’s little authorization was “leaked” by Patrick Fitzgerald.
And Bush is a maniac. He knows he is going down and seems determined to take as many as he can with him.
Me3! You made it!
Yeah… My URL was too long I think… So I plugged in a tinyurl and I was able to post for the first time here.
Myself, while I enjoy holding my piece, I prefer to have another do the heavy lifting.
I liked this one.
from page 2 (the defendant claims) “…ex parte submissions are unnecessary because the defendant is a former national security official and his attorneys have security clearances.”
There’s a footnote-
“It is this Court’s understanding that upon the defendant’s resignation from government service, the defendant’s security clearance became inactive.” And they note most of these docs were things he’s already seen, so there haven’t been any objections to him seeing them again.
Hi me3!
Talk about highjackin’ a thread, Kitt….
I didn’t know we were talking about highjacking a thread.
Good to see you Me3!!!
I’d like to second Psychohistorian’s request for serious attention to the upcoming bombing of Iran and have suggested that we organize a similar email/fax/call push to those we have used on Alito, Censure, etc to make the Congress aware of the active opposition and demand that they withhold funding for any such attack or we will withhold votes. We need to raise the visibility of this W plan – and we seem to have more success with the FDL tactics in gaining mainstream attention than many others. So many issues we address are very important and they are all interrelated but knowing that W&Co are about to launch an attack, most likely with nuclear weapons is the most critical issue at the moment.
psychohistorian- The fear of an attack on Iran is on everyone’s mind, but I hold out hope that this is maximum saber rattling ultimately leading to a bombing bluff. What we hear and what is happening likely are different, which of course, is not reassuring by any means.
But consider these remarks by Joe Biden on 3/30/06 that received almost no attention, but perhaps reveal that what we hear in the corporate media, versus what is occurring in Iraq regarding deployment are quite different. The numbers Biden mentions are quite substantial yet are not being trumpeted by anyone, especially Bush. It is not a direct translation by any means, but I think it favors us not opening up another major violent front : msnbc linked text
“BIDEN: I‘m about to say something on national television could get me in trouble. Eight, 10 months ago I did that before the last election, I went down to the president and said, “Mr. President, if you do the following things, not only will you get support. Those of us who are supporting Kerry on this issue, because it‘s more important in the election will stand up and say you did the right thing. We will stop the carping.â€
Now look, you‘re always going to have 20 percent of my party and 20 percent of their party who the not going to be signed on to anything that is basically reasonable, but I just get the sense that these guys, they just have closed the doors. And if you ask my Republican colleagues, ask them what they‘re getting back. I‘m confident some of the serious Republicans are going down saying, “Mr. President, how about if you move boom, boom, boom and we‘ll all be on one page.†But you know, the reality is, I think at least, he‘s already drawing down. He‘s already moving along those lines and yet he says it‘s conditions-based. What good has happened in 95 days to justify 35,000 troops being drawn down, other than they‘re already underway in this direction?
MATTHEWS: Are you surprised or stunned even by the fact that the president in a press conference recently said, I‘m going to leave it to a future president—that could be you potentially—to solve this problem and get our troops out of there? He‘s basically laying down the law and saying I‘m keeping troops in Iraq as long as I‘m president. That doesn‘t coincide with what you say.
BIDEN: No, it doesn‘t, and it did surprise me number one. And it did make me wonder whether or not he‘s on the same page that the rest of his administration seems to be, in the way they‘re moving.
You talk to the generals out there, you talk to them back here, you talk to the people at State and Defense Departments. The reality is we can‘t sustain 150,000 troops there without breaking the volunteer army. The reality is that we‘re not going to be in a position to even sustain 130,000. It‘s going to get down below 100,000 people, so I think what he‘s trying to do is get two pieces.
That 30,000 or that brigade level I talked about being left behind. Everybody left, right and center who thinks there is something at stake in Iraq, not a democracy, but a stake in a total loss in Iraq, thinks you have to have something like that around. All I can figure is he‘s talking about that without looking like he‘s changing policy.”
Kitt – I know. Had the same opinion when I came here. Now, it’s just a bit of fun. Get it? Have a little fun. Laugh a little. If you can. Chill. No pressure. I’ll Fitz first if I’m lucky enough. I’m just not fast enough now. :)
Pachacutec – Oh, you SO Bad. :)
As for the Fitz thing. I think started as Frist. On other blogs. Then morphed.
I don’t even notice. But the one time was the first commenter, I was so startled I said it too.
Jane if you do plan on doing a story about Iran please please please pretty please link to Oxford Research Group’s paper
“IRAN:
CONSEQUENCES OF A WAR”
Link to Online Version.
Link to PDF
The ORG have been consistently right.
I also blogged (on my blogspot blog) about Iran’s upgraded air defense capacity this – “meet tor-mi”
I am a visiter here. Jane and Christy built this house and serve great refreshments. When I visit someone, I don’t complaint about the color of the walls and ‘Fitzing’ is about as important as that.
OT – My daughter is bringing her 4 kids over tonight and Grandma is having a sleepover. Lots of hugs and smiles will lift my mood. Taking a small break from adult worry is all good.
Teddy – Someone’s sayin there’s grownups on this site? Oh, oh. Better watch what we say. Had enough? Oh, and FITZ!
Cool me3 made it – welcome back.
Now if you people will excuse me I’ve an Afghan hound who is of the opinion that some time in the back garden is more important than my socialising here. Any time I fail to do my duty he takes his revenge by hogging the sofa for the rest of the night and I’ve some reading and chocolate eating planned…….
*poof*
GrandmaJ – You one of them grownups they talkin about? :)
Kitt – I know. Had the same opinion when I came here. Now, it’s just a bit of fun. Get it? Have a little fun. Laugh a little. If you can. Chill. No pressure. I’ll Fitz first if I’m lucky enough. I’m just not fast enough now. :)
Thanks for the useless advice but, you know, I know how to “have a little fun” and “laugh a little” and running to the first post just doesn’t happen to be it or be funny to me. Why do people think preaching to me is the answer to my suggestion? I don’t know.
hmmm… the Niger forgeries story is to break in London the same day as the Italian elections? interesting timing…
colleenmiltarymom – Gosh, you may be one of them grownups too. :)
I think it started as “first”, then, when the senator’s insider trading scandal broke, it became “frist”, then “fitz”, then “feingold” and then, 12 people would presume themselves to be first, and struggle frantically to invent a new pun, resulting in multiple overlapping posts – usually with very little original humorous content.
I’m 64yo and I still wonder what I’ll be when I grow up…
Kitt – I am sorry it seems like preaching to you. Really I am. Sorry. Nothing I can say.
Does anyone seriously doubt that Bush intends to use nuclear bombs on Iran? We knew some weeks (months?)ago that Cheney had directed the military to start drawing up plans for it? And at this point, what does Bush have to lose…a few more rating points? The only thing that will stop him is an outpouring of the public’s outrage on the streets of America. Or maybe the American Psychiatric Assoc. demanding that he be committed in a straitjacket to the nearest D.C. asylum.
Siun’s suggestion of an email/call-in campaign against nuking Iran is good.
I wonder if the military would refuse to carry out orders to nuke Iran.
colleenmiltarymom says: “I was so startled I said it too.”
You have to say it. It’s a rule. Fitz!
Kitt, I don’t want to preach, so I’ll just quote you:
Please, goddamnit, stop it.
Muzzy – the plans for Iran are not new and have actually been quite actively circulated for a while. In fact, Fox News has been routinely beating the war drum on a regular basis with faux generals talking about likely targets and hyped up video clips of Israeli strategists and all the trappings of a runup to war.
Pach – I love you but really am uncomfortable with the “we can’t cover everything” approach – several of us are asking for FDL and others to pay significant attention to this upcoming disaster. We mobilize for issues that impact our own privacy, rights and security – I will be very disheartened if we do not address this imminent threat with the same vigor. We are perched on the edge of a desperate abyss – and we need to find ways to respond now … I am not hopeful about our ability to stop the W War Crime machine but we must try.
Me3, great to see you. Today would be a good day for one of your rants about Satanic influences :P
Alright, Kitt, now you’re starting to act snotty in the face of cummunity feedback to your post. No one has disrespected you, but your “useless advice” comment is disrespectful.
Please consider that the community is not bothered by the issue you raise, and if the matter bothers you, then the options open to you do not include disrespect of community members.
*ilson46201 – Well, you could be ******46201 when you grow up.
Seymour Hersh has a new article in next week’s New Yorker, in which Bush has a plan “to save Iran” by nuking it. It’s the old “we must destroy the village in order to save it” theme during Vietnam. The thing that is bothersome about Hersh is that he is right so often, and generally that means bad news.
By the way,”nuking” is not a misprint here. They are thinking not about just conventional bombs, but nuclear warheads.
[snip]
A government consultant with close ties to the civilian leadership in the Pentagon said that Bush was “absolutely convinced that Iran is going to get the bomb†if it is not stopped. He said that the President believes that he must do “what no Democrat or Republican, if elected in the future, would have the courage to do,†and “that saving Iran is going to be his legacy.â€
[snip]
One former defense official, who still deals with sensitive issues for the Bush Administration, told me that the military planning was premised on a belief that “a sustained bombing campaign in Iran will humiliate the religious leadership and lead the public to rise up and overthrow the government.†He added, “I was shocked when I heard it, and asked myself, ‘What are they smoking?’ â€
[snip]
[The plan] calls for the use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, against underground nuclear sites.
[snip]
And of course, while we are doing this, Iran is just going sit to there and absorb whatever we can throw at them, with no countermeasures of its own, right? And the jihadists will thank us for saving Iran. Right.
Madness, sheer madness.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/…..417fa_fact
*ilson46201 says:
April 8th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
How long do you suppose they’ve been sitting on that story?
And FITZ!
Re:Judy Miller and the Plame Story.
Hoping this has not been pointed out before, I’d like to add this tidbit to the Plame story.
I have been wondering, and perhaps others too, how come Judy Miller had not published anything about the intelligence Libby leaked to her. Well, apparently there is a very simple answer: according to Maureen Dowd, Miller’s editors at NYT had shut her down from writing about prewar intelligence.
“The Bushies once more showed incompetence by creating this elaborate daisy-chain leak and giving it to the one person in journalism who had been roped off from writing about the prewar intelligence, while her editors sorted out problems with her past W.M.D. coverage. Judy never authored an article about what Scooter gave her, either that intelligence or the identity of the woman whom she wrote down in her notebook as “Valerie Flame.”
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..8dowd.html
On this subject of recent filings, I have a question. Team Libby is now authorized to subpoena various news folks. Oooook….but aren’t these various news folks going to say “I don’t know what Libby is talking about. He never talked to me about who would win the World Series…he talked to me ALL ABOUT Plame, her job, her husband, etc”
[I mean, it’s kinda like the guy on trial for bank robbery who “demands” that he be allowed to call to the stand the eye witness to the robbery!]
So….why??? WHY would Libby want these news people to testify?? What am I missing, or not understanding? Ghostman
for *ilson:
I won’t grow up,
(I won’t grow up)
I don’t want to go to school.
(I don’t want to go to school)
Just to learn to be a parrot,
(Just to learn to be a parrot)
And recite a silly rule.
(And recite a silly rule)
If growing up means
It would be beneath my dignity to climb a tree,
I’ll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up
Not me!
Not I,
Not me!
Not me!
I won’t grow up,
(I won’t grow up)
I don’t want to wear a tie.
(I don’t want to wear a tie)
And a serious expression
(And a serious expression)
In the middle of July.
(In the middle of July)
And if it means I must prepare
To shoulder burdens with a worried air,
I’ll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up
Not me,
Not I,
Not me!
So there!
Never gonna be a man,
I won’t!
Like to see somebody try
And make me.
Anyone who wants to try
And make me turn into a man,
Catch me if you can.
I won’t grow up.
Not a penny will I pinch.
I will never grow a mustache,
Or a fraction of an inch.
‘Cause growing up is awfuller
Than all the awful things that ever were.
I’ll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up,
No sir,
Not I,
Not me,
So there!
Re Growing up per *ilson
That * makes you look 10 years younger!
The Hersh article makes clearer to me why Scotty and the WH just aren’t terribly bothered by the leaky leaks and the leaking leakers who leak them: WHIG2.0 is busy, busy, busy planning war again. “Version 2.0, now with nukular bunker-busters.” Initiating nuclear war with an enemy that is far away from having nuclear weapons, but which does have a a world-widespread terror network, seems like a screenplay you couldn’t peddle easily in Hollywood. But Hersh sez that’s our current US reality. The quotes from Euro and IAEA diplomats are particular discouraging….
=========
Had enough?
=========
California Reality Check (I was born in CA) – I am adult X 3. Life is too difficult to worry about the trivial stuff. Our family is surviving big trouble, and so is our nation.
colleenmiltarymom – :)
does a 2nd * make it look too fake?
Begging your pardon, but I hardly think that the give and take has been a one way street. Please refer to posts prior to the one you are questioning. And my statement of “useless advice” was simply fact in my view not disrespect. I appreciated whoever it was reply after that, but, as I said, I simply stated, factually, how useful or not his or her reply was. It was not “disrespect”.
What Bob Adams at #36 says….
#39 Agree. Iran is soaring to the top of the long list. Which way to the barricades? Rally round Wes Clark?
And thanks to Jane and Christy for the finest of blogosphere sites. Your dedicated, round-the-clock work to keep us all informed earns appreciation beyond measure.
GrandmaJ – I know. And God Bless you.
*ilson – I can pronounce *ilson when I read but **lson makes my tongue curl!
siun: Please don’t misunderstand: I hear you, and I agree this is a big issue. I just can’t speak for what Jane and Christy intend to write.
Look at this past week. We intended to put the rubber stamp video up, but then came the Fitz filing. Christy was up into the wee hours reading court filings, and traffic here hit record highs, as this is thr go-to Treasongate site. The pace of big news lateley is incredible.
So I see the other side of this too, knowing how busy Jane and Christy are. The requests for discussion of the Iran story are heard.
That’s all I’m saying. People at kos have made this same complaint, when some issues don’t get thr front page exposure some community members would like. As a blog expands, more members have more interests, and no blog can touch on them all. This happens at Eschaton, too.
This blog is growing. My own opinion is, let Christy and Jane be themselves, writing about what compels them, what interests them, what captures their passion and expertise. That’s the only writing that will be compelling in the end.
When I see four “Fitz!”s in a row, posted at the same time, I find it highly amusing, not annoying at all.
Siun – So there.
Alright, Kitt, now you’re starting to act snotty in the face of cummunity feedback to your post. No one has disrespected you, but your “useless advice†comment is disrespectful.
Please consider that the community is not bothered by the issue you raise, and if the matter bothers you, then the options open to you do not include disrespect of community members.
I meant to quote that in my reply 92.
Can we drop the discussion of “Fitz”-ing? I’d rather talk about Lucianne Goldberg’s sex organs–or the “dough machine” as they’re affectionately known by some.
Is Bush mad enough to deny scooter a pardon yet? He sure took a drubbing over the Fitz revelations.
Will Bush be able to finish out his term if he drops below 30% approval rating? That could happen if this keeps up and something else blows up in his face, like gas prices over $3.00 a gallon, ‘acknowledged’ civil war in iraq and Rove getting indicted. If we don’t bomb Iran first, that is.
And I say FRITZ! to you, too, pal. :-D
this nuking of Iran will break the unspoken consensus against anybody ever using nukes again. There never was any ‘decision point’ about using or not-using atom bombs against Japan. Those two explosions were so horrific that no nation nation ever dared use nukes again. GWB may smash that prohibition…what a horrible legacy!
There has been some back-and-forth about whether the Iran story is On Topic for this blog. I don’t see how it cannot be On Topic. The genesis of this blog had to do with the Bush administration’s illegal war and the outing of Valerie Plame. These issues relate to Iran in a seamless way. We have devoted many threads for example, to Ben Domenech, who is after all just a little rightwing twit. And those were excellent threads with great discussion. In terms of relevance, however, how does that match with the looming possibility of Bush launching one of the most disastrous decisions in modern history, on top of his disastrous decision in Iraq.
Iran is as relevant a topic as you can possibly get right now.
Kitt – Would you be able to let it go, Sir? No harm. You would appear to be out voted. I believe that is a fact, Sir. I would actually prefer to hear what you have to say on another subject. Do you have an interest in that?
About the Iran issue: Me3 used to use the comment threads to organize phone/letter action. There’s no reason we couldn’t do the same thing now, without needing front page posts to start things.
Marky–that’s just what I was thinking. Since this is the come-to place for venting and worrying and action…
OT – Hey Pach, you watching the Mets right now? Woohoo!
Siun – True enough. However, there is no limit to imagination when it comes to the exercise of generating contingency plans drawn up to include military options. I think these contingencies are on an everchanging continuum. Thankfully, they certainly far outnumber the instances where military action was taken. With Bush, the mere fact a scary contingency plan could even be cooked up to fall into his purview, truly, is bad enough. So yes, the existence of bombing plans for Iran likely is not new but in some ways is not necessarily an indication of the imminence of a terribly disastrous occurrance.
.
Marky – I don’t know if I am adult enough to discuss “Lucianne Goldberg’s sex organs–or the “dough machine†as they’re affectionately known by some.” But, I would appreciate the opportunity to speculate a bit.
In review of my comment at #89, let me clarify — ‘X 3′ does NOT equal XXX – because that would be adult only material. Not suitable for regular grandma-like grownups. Just for the record.
Muzzy, i’m pretty sure Bush has publicly refused to take the nuke-iran option off the table. That is unacceptable.
Crime scene photos underway:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..office.jpg
recently GWB talked about how safe America used to be with its seas protecting it and how nobody would attack it – but then came 9/11…
huh?
he was a jet fighter pilot during the Cold War – protecting Houston against Fidel’s hordes. More importantly, didnt GWB ever notice the thousands of Soviet ICBMs poised on a hair-trigger, loaded with hydrogen bombs?
GrandmaJ, was happy to hear you’ve been doing some quilting. I’m making a puppet set for my nephews. Very therapeutic.
Up is down, black is white, war is peace (piece?)and I’m rooting for the prosecution. What a strange place the world has become. The defense is going to lay out their theory of the case? That’s showing your cards pretty darn early, I’d think – and a high price for discovery. Guess that’s a prime example of why I never could have lawyered at that level. I used to get a lot of mileage by sandbagging, playin’ dumb, STFU whenever possible. The playing dumb part, strangely, I found to be no problem whatsoever. Hmmmm….
I *believe* I was the first “Feingold”! hollerer. If not, I’ll at least be the first today – Feingold!
P.S. Saw V fo Vendetta last night. jayt’s review – go see it. Take someone you care about.
This should interest both children and grown-ups equally.
orangejumpsuit – Well some could argue that it is on or off topic. I say when the future of the World is at stake we can put aside the Fitz disagreement to try to figure out how to stop the blood thirsty monsters from destroying the Earth. Seems that’s the least we can do. Hell, we can multi-task. Can’t we?
I’m having brain drain – can someone remind me why Team Libby would subpoena Pincus ?-
I just finished Marie Brenner’s Vanity Fair article yesterday and I can’t for the life of me make the connection
Kittz!
GrandmaJ – glad to hear of the sleepover – have a blast !
Kitt – Would you be able to let it go, Sir? No harm. You would appear to be out voted. I believe that is a fact, Sir. I would actually prefer to hear what you have to say on another subject. Do you have an interest in that?
Well, I guess we have moved on now to “adult” conversations about Lucianne Golberg’s sex organs. I’m not well versed on that subject so I will have to decline to comment.
jayt – No, I hadn’t noticed you were first Feingold. You have a star in my book. Well, it’s a small book. But, what the heck. Were you first Fitzgold as well? I thought that was Wilson or maybe Teddy.
FWIW: there are only 5 countries with players in the Niger Forgeries story: Niger, Italy, France, U.K. and the USA. I’d bet my lira on the Yanks!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t I hear David Brooks say yesterday that he was one of the reporters who Libby had contacted?
Anyboy try “feinzgerald” yet?
Someone on kos posted an interview with some scientists on the effects of “small” nuclear weapons. One of the comments made follows:
Dr Rob Nelson:
We showed that if you use the smallest yield nuclear weapon that we have right now on a bunker buried hypothetically in Bagdad it would kill somewhere between 10,000 and 50,000 people just from the radioactive fallout alone.
Who among us is willing to bet the future on Bush’s ability to restrain himself? Not me!
Pach – thanks for the thoughtful reply. I am in continuous awe at the quantity of amazing quality post Jane and Christy serve up to us and the work that you are doing as well. I am just lobbying the blogosphere leaders to put the activism we have recently (thanks to Jane and Christy!!!) learned to use since these Iran developments are so critical. All of the issues we talk about come back, one way or the other, to the lying runup to war in Iraq – we now face another such runup and it is even more dangerous. I’m willing and available to help in any way I can on an FDL or blogosphere response – research, writing, calls, you name it – I am not asking others to do it all – and I think it is an issue which ties a lot of our ongoing concerns together – it sure looks like Lieberman is the likely “democratic senator” referenced in the Hersh article, the lack of consultation with democrats on Iran attack mirrors the lack of oversight issues we address with NSA issues, the creation of faux arguments for the attack and the role of the media in ignoring this – or in hyping the danger as they are doing on Fox is the ultimate use of the media wurlitzer we fight against … etc.
so consider this lobbying without the dinner at Signatures … but hey, I’ll waitress at the FDL breakfast if you need staff!
(ps – I was away from computer during the poll so will just toss in that I will somehow be at YKOS and will be working as part of the media team – plan to be at breakfast, have no food prefs since I rarely eat bkfst (which explains a lot) and happy to help in any way I can. One suggestion – it would be neat to get some little FDL logo buttons for FDL attendees so we can easily find each other and also promote FDL at the event – again, will happily help with such a project if useful)
Kitt – Jump in when we hit your subject. I’m squeamish about Lucianne myself. :)
Fitz. Bah humbug.
I agree we must look at this nuking Iran insanity before we actually start WWIII. Seriously.
Fitzgold!? nope – only one star for me….
john – Where did you hear that about D. Brooks?
Btw, “small ” nuclear weapons could not penetrate deep enough. Robust Nuclear Penetrators would create devastating fallout
If Libby accepts a deal and pleads guilty to a lesser charge once the court flushes his motions to dissmiss (which is my prediction) would he get to keep the money collected from his defense fund?
marky (111)- I know. Merely extending that kind of threat is beyond the pale and defies the very spirit of striving for peace in our world. That alone should be enough to trigger an unremitting and deafening roar of opposition. I’m ready to go hoarse.
Pachacutec: April 8th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
I think the Iran thing and the Fitz thing are joined at the waist. We are racing the clock on Bushit’s diminishing political capital, that will weight very heavily on whether he uses Iran to cover his multitude of sins. Even a Fitz indictment of Rove could prove critical, in a timely fashion, in sinking WH ‘Wag the Dog’ wet dreams.
IMHO, the Fitz thing, if broken open in the near future, could mortally wound Bushit Inc. from starting a ‘Second Front” on Iran, but it better happen soon. The Iran thing has a ‘window of do-a-bility’ also. The Bushit “Inner Circle” is growing smaller by the minute, no adults to pull him back from the brink.
‘All Hat and No Cattle’ desparately needs some Air Holes in his Bubble.
jayt – Okay, but you have the singular distinction of being the FIRST Feingold star. Congratulations.
I agree with Kitt. The Frist!/First!/Fitz! thing is irritating.
I also agree with markfromireland: I wince and skip over it.
OT: IMO (and let me emphasize this is my opinion), the time has come for FDL to drop TM from the blogroll. I know he’s useful for posting court documents and all, but over at JOM he’s flogging the idea that Joe Wilson’s an Anti-Semite, based on Wilson’s extreme disllike for neocons, and a remark that Mark Kleiman, for some reason, decided was “gay-baiting.”
The remark was Wilson responding to remarks about his being a womanizer by saying that “unlike Ken Mehlman and David Dreier, I really like women.” How you get gay-baiting like this escapes me. I don’t know what bat flew up into Kleiman’s belfry.
But to take 1 + 2 and come up with the square root of 644, as TM has, sets a new standard for intellectual dishonesty.
Please drop him, and drop the hat-tips, too.
Just a hunch.
I think the reason Bush has not pardoned Libby as of yet is because Fitz has enough thugs on his indictment list to keep this on the front page for many years.
Kitt, Since you so obviously NEED to have the last word I suggest when this thread ends that you post “Kitt!”
Would that give you the attention you need today?
Siun, my 2 cents as I don’t disagree with a thing you’ve said on Iran -
any action should be aimed at the non blogging public, by that I mean we are going to have to get to folks who don’t normally contact DC and somehow mobilize those voices
both the USA and the USSR experimented with small nukes for massive earthmoving operations – the fallout was so messy that these ‘Atoms for Peace’ projects were abandoned.
Since it’s the weekend, can we be a little less serious for a few minutes? Last October, right before Scooter was indicted, a very simple explanation of the Plame affair was created. For new readers here who may not have seen it, go Daily Kos to read Mr. Leaker and Mrs. Wilson. A picture story. You can download a pdf version there too.
Then go to http://www.cafepress.com/fouroboros/930983 to check out the selection of Mr. Leaker items at Cafepress. I want the “Mr. Fitzgerald doesn’t like lies” button.
(technical question-why can’t I put two links in one post? as soon as the 2nd is added, half my post disappears.)
Kitt – Jump in when we hit your subject. I’m squeamish about Lucianne myself. :)
LOL.I’ll be sure and do that. Thanks.
New thread.
word on the street is that Lucianne’s sex organs have already been thoroughly explored…
Sy Hersh is plugged in like Bob Woodward wishes he was. Hersh was months ahead of the curve on torture and rendition. Unfortunately, he seems to rarely be wrong. You may now offically color me scared shitless.
For the record — no, we can’t address everything. And we won’t try to. We have issues that we cover regularly, usually that fall within the realm where Christy and I have some knowledge — subjects we follow carefully — that we feel we can contribute something on. Just because a subject is important doesn’t make us instant experts on it, and with millions of blogs in the blogosphere we defer to those who can cover these subjects with a greater knowledge base. That’s not going to change.
We’re not a huge news organization, we barely make enough money off advertising to cover our expenses so our time and efforts are delivered up gratis. I’m not interested in having a conversation about what we “owe” anyone. If something is not being covered here to your satisfaction, go where it is. I myself read Swopa and Juann Cole. They are both excellent.
California, 117:
You bet. Multitasking is fine. I totally respect Jane and Redd’s contributions and we need to give them some slack. However, FDL has already established a tradition of guest bloggers, and it might be possible to have a guest author give us some real insights into what is happening with the Iran issue, as well as provide a platform for discussion.
One idea is to have threads that don’t die. In other words, there could be ongoing threads for particular areas of interest. With threads dying, sometimes the discussion just gets cut off, and remains in limbo until the topic is revisited.
In a way FDL is victim of its own success, and with success comes the expectations of your public. But FDL has become a place for intelligent as well as humorous discussion, and there ain’t too many places where you can get that.
To get back to Iran however, there has to be an element of brinksmanshhip on both sides. Each side is playing their cards closely but with enough bravado to keep the other guy from too blatant a bluff. But the game of bluff has a funny way of turning into a real shootout, and that is the bothersome thing right now.
Bush’s problem is that with Iraq and all his other problems he does not have too many face cards left.
I have an eighteen year old son who could end up as fodder for these insane fucks. The time for political gains, or games, is over. They must go, and right fucking now.
CaseyL,
I think one reason the radcons hate Wilson is that he’s very sexual (in an adult way) just like Clinton.
Doesn’t JOe seem like a real ladykiller toyou? That’s my vibe
cbl – I agree completely but I don’t know how to do that (have spent years trying) so I’m lobbying for what I know I can do .. and offering support and work time to anyone with a good plan for larger mobilizing.
The timefram for an attack is relatively short as shown in the Oxford Research Group’s briefing – the Iranians are close to taking their nuclear power plant critical – it is due this Spring I believe but I’ll have to go back and check that – and any attack on Iranian capabilities will be attempted before that event since afterwards, the fallout is too disastrous (not that that would discourage apocalpse prez) – this makes the issue not simply speculative – again, if folks have not read the ORG briefing – do it now and then share the PDF with everyone you can think of. My suggestion last week (which I did at that time) is to bombard our senators with this pdf since it is a reasonable analysis from a reliable source that accurately described the results we see now in Iraq. Here’s the link once more for those who have not checked it yet:
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup…..uences.htm
the green lantern says:
April 8th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
I recall that her editors informed her that she could no longer write about prewar intelligence. When did that happen? Was it before Scooter’s disclosure of classified material to her? Did Judy tell him that she couldn’t write about prewar intelligence? If so, what did he think Judy would do with the information he disclosed to her?
I agree whole-heartedly that FDL can’t come the world like Benjamin Moore Paint. It is my main source for all things Plame.
Plamegate in my cosmos is a lynch pin to neutralizing all things NeoConJob. The Plame thing is a means to an end, a very important means because it ’stuck to the wall’ like well done pasta when all else seems to fail.
I treasure your site Jane and Christy, it is a ray of Light in an otherwise Dark Age.
*ilson
Don’t push your luck. You don’t want your face to look like it’s growing side-ways. Like that Ron Popeil (vegamatic) guy.
The radcons hate Wilson, as they hated Clinton, because they’re ugly, pasty-faced sexless creeps who get their jollies from creation of death, rather than creation of Life. They know they couldn’t laid in a whorehouse. Smooth, charismatic elegantly dressed men like the aforementioned make their vestigal sex organs shrivel even more. As I’ve often said, it amazes me that they’re able to procreate.
Re: Stephen Parrish at #150 above.
According to Fitzgerald’s court filing, Libby’s meeting with Judy Miller occurred on July 8, 2003 and Libby testified that Bush and Cheney authorized the leak shortly before that date.
It’s an interesting question you raise, i.e. whether Libby knew at that time that Miller was not permitted by her editors to write about pre-war intelligence and “if so, what did he think Judy would do with the information he disclosed to her?â€
I don’t know the answer to whether Libby knew. But, regardless, past practice and experience must have led him to believe that leaking to her, as a previously reliable conduit, would have got the word out one way or another.
orangejumpsuit – I have put out a couple of subject to see if they would like to guest post. We’ll see what comes back.
In the mean time we keep the comments section rather free and don’t require that people stay on topic, I think there is plenty of room for folks to discuss whatever they feel is important.
What CaseyL said on 135. The Fitz thing is annoying as shit. But I’ve learned to scroll through the first 5/10 posts (2/3 posts during less busy times) before I start reading.
And as a minority, the “the majority have spoken” attitude slightly bugs too. Just because most people agree on something doesn’t automatically make it ok. But this is about an annoying habit particpants in the blogosphere have instead of something significant, so it doesn’t bug too much.
And now, back to real discussion. I just wanted Kitt (and some of the “majority” people) to know that she/he wasn’t alone.
PBS, The Newshour –
DAVID BROOKS: He’s got Iraq.
But, you know, they gave it to Judy Miller, and, then, eight days later, they gave it to a lot of us. They handed — I think Scooter Libby himself handed the NIE the — to me, this intelligence estimate.
JIM LEHRER: This is the national intelligence…
DAVID BROOKS: Intelligence estimate.
JIM LEHRER: Gave it to you?
DAVID BROOKS: Well, we were — I was in a group of a whole reporters.
JIM LEHRER: Raise your right — raise your right hand.
DAVID BROOKS: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
JIM LEHRER: Put your hand on the blue sleet.
DAVID BROOKS: I now have to get a lawyer. I shouldn’t have said that.
JIM LEHRER: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
They spin me right round baby right round like a record baby rightround round round
http://www.nationalreview.com/…..081200.asp
They’re shameless.
hmmm…Cinco de Mayo! Maybe Michelle Malkin’s right about those immigration protestors…
The Sunday Times story is now online at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a…..30,00.html.
It starts with a rehash of the story La Republica published some time ago concerning forged yellowcake contract documents, although it posits corruption within the Niger Embassy as its starting point rather than a break-in to steal old documents that could then be used as the basis of more modern forgeries. The effect of the rehash is to make those who believed in – or claimed to believe in – the forgeries look perhaps marginally less stupid and to shift some of the opprobrium from the Italian authorities to Niger Embassy staff. IN this version there’s no mention of Cheney’s urgent need for more WMD evidence or of Stephen Hadley’s visit to Italy.
The story then goes on to detail Tony Blair’s supposedly corroborating second piece of evidence – a letter from Iraq’s ambassador to the Vatican, requesting talks about opening a commercial relationship with Niger. This letter, which is not known to be a forgery, is taken as genuine evidence that Saddam was at least seeking to purchase yellowcake.
The story claims unnamed NATO sources. Offhand I see nothing fishy about this version of the “Italian Connection” story, but bear in mind that the Sunday Times is a Murdoch (of Fox news fame) newspaper.
PS As regards all the Fitzing: it may have once been mildly funny, but after a while it became mildly irritating. And, at least as far as this supercilious Brit is concerned, after all this time it’s no longer mildly irritating; it’s depressingly juvenile and has gone on far too long.
Re: First/Frist/Fitz/Whatever-ing:
This happens at ALL high-traffic blogs with open comments, like this set-up and Haloscan, and nothing stops it, short of closing the comments section. This is just how people are on the internets, and complaining about it only instigates needless flame wars–which ironically take away from the serious discussion the complainers want to have. After a while you learn to scroll, baby, scroll. The alternatives are to stop reading comments, or not visit a site with open commenting anymore. And, by the way, if folks think the Fitzing distracts from serious discussion, check out the Yahoo Boards sometime. There’s some highbrow conversation for you.
That old AA Serenity Prayer might help handle the Fitzing: Change what you can, accept what you cannot, and have the wisdom to know which is which. Now can we all get along and talk about something interesting. Lucianne doesn’t have any sex organs by the way. Jonah took them with him when he was born.
Re: First/Frist/Fitz/Whatever-ing:
This happens at ALL high-traffic blogs with open comments, like this set-up and Haloscan, and nothing stops it, short of closing the comments section.
No it doesn’t. I don’t see that at Kos, for example. But anyway, “complaining” as you called it, was not what I was doing. I remarked about it, expressed my opinion about it and then had banter about it with whomever chose to banter about it. What’s the difference between that conversation and many of the other conversations we’ve had on here? We don’t always stick to the ‘hard cold sad facts’ of what is going on in our world, do we? No, we don’t. We toss stuff around with one another. We try to get to know one another in some respect by voicing our opinions and putting out a little bit of who we are. That is, in essence ,all that I was doing by taking on the subject of ‘fitzing’ in a direct way. To call one a complainer just for doing that is an unwarranted insult.
Fitz!
Just curious if the TIME Inc subpoena might include John Dickerson of “Where’s My Subpoena?” fame?
Hello, Kitt.
One question:
Do you know how to R-E-A-D?
Obviously not.
Look at my first sentence.
Look at it carefully.
Here it is again, in case you can’t figure it out:
This happens at ALL high-traffic blogs with open comments, like this set-up and Haloscan
Kos does NOT have the same set up. See any ratings systems here? See any “hold for moderation” banners? No, you don’t. Those things weed out “Fristers” at places like that. Those filters are NOT here. Capisce?
Am I making this simple enough for you?
Not complaining? Then how about NAGGING? You’re being as annoying as my ex-boyfriend’s Chihuahua who had a bad habit of grabbing onto my pants legs all the time, and not letting go. And if you find it an insult, too bad. This is an open forum. You do things like you have, somebody might insult you. YOU derailed the thread with your relentless harping on this issue. NO ONE ELSE. Capisce?
Welcome to the Internet.