Fitz!

fitz

Fitz!

lol

fitz? fitz?

Ya, but regardless what actually happened, if there is no ’stamp’ could….and I know I might be asking for it here…..could Mr. Libby actually be their ultimate cut-out man?

.

Fitz

Scotty needs a large rubber stamp on the forehead saying L I A R

speaking of rubber stamps…???

Excellent question – and one that folks have been asking here in previous threads. There are procedures that have to be followed when you change a document’s classification – either in whole or in part. If they didn’t do this, then at the very least they have been negligent.

The President declassifies by selectivly leaking information to favored reporters. The President wiretaps and reads emails, both foreign and domestic, without a warrant. The time is coming when Feingold’s censure resolution will look like a model of restraint to republicans and democrats alike.

Maybe we should send a “Rubber Stamp Republican Congress” stamp over to Scotty so he knows what we are talking about here….

‘Ever have one of those days where your nose just doesn’t fit your face?’

“No, David, because you’re asking me that in the context of the legal proceeding.”

What a totally BS response!!!

NeoJoe @ 3:29 pm – I think there should be one that says “Unclassified Only When We Need This Leaked”.

I sent this to Josh Marshall yesterday, regarding his request for instances of statemenmts about declassification.

McClellan Press Gaggle 7/18/03 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..18-10.html

Q Scott, why did the administration put out all the information that the senior administration official put out today on the intel –

MR. McCLELLAN: No, well, we always want to share facts with the American people. *And this information was just, as of today, officially declassified,* and it was an opportunity to share with them some information that showed the clear and compelling case that we had for confronting the threat that Saddam Hussein posed.

Q Does the White House think that this should end the case, the discussion? Are we done with this after –

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, first of all, I think we always welcome the opportunity to discuss and talk about the safety and security of the American people. It’s the President’s highest priority. This was, as I said, an opportunity to share some important facts with the American people that had recently become declassified. And that’s what we did earlier today.

Q Did some of the documents that came out undercut some of the argument, like State Department documents about things being “highly dubious” and all?

MR. McCLELLAN: I think that when you look at the information that was released, it shows further how clear and compelling this case was regarding the threat that we faced in Iraq, and that we ended in Iraq. Saddam Hussein is gone and his regime is no longer a threat of using these weapons of mass destruction.

Q Why, Scott, was the cable that was — that derived from the debriefing of Joe Wilson not included among the declassified documents?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, we always want to share as much information as we can. There is some classified information that — well, there’s some information that remains classified for national security reasons. But we felt that this information — which is what the State of the Union statement was originally based on — was important to share with the American people, because it could be declassified.

Q When was it actually declassified?

MR. McCLELLAN: It was officially declassified today.

Q Just today?

Q Scott, can you just tell us, why did the President not raise the subject, at all, of the uranium with Tony Blair, given events going on –

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, I think the Prime Minister — it came up at the press conference. The Prime Minister made it very clear that he stood behind that statement. I think you have to take into account that the British government had additional sources and they made a commitment not to reveal the additional source that they had. And we understand that.

But as you see from today, that one statement had — that one statement, in and of itself, was by no means the reason that we decided to act and confront the threat that was posed by the Iraqi regime. The case was much broader and the evidence was much broader.

And it was clear and compelling evidence, as you see, in the National Intelligence Estimate, along with the other information that has previously been disclosed by the United Nations, by the international community, that Saddam Hussein is someone that possessed weapons of mass destruction, he showed a willingness to use weapons of mass destruction in the past against his own people, he was someone who defied the international community for 12 years. He was someone who went to great lengths to conceal these weapons of mass destruction. But he is no longer a threat to the American people.

Q Now that you’ve put this out, I mean, is the case closed, as far as the White House is concerned? Is this the end of it, as far as you’re concerned?

MR. McCLELLAN: The end of?

Q The end of the probe looking into it? Is there a need for — to look into it further?

MR. McCLELLAN: I think that it’s — a lot of information has been provided to Congress, these questions have been addressed extensively. And, yes, the issue has been fully addressed.

Q But, Scott, the polls show that as this controversy has raged on, Bush’s approval ratings have dropped, more people believe that they exaggerated information. Are you hoping by getting more out there you can stop that slide, their hemorrhaging of support and more doubts of the American public? From a political point of view, this does not help the administration.

MR. McCLELLAN: I think it goes back to we welcome the opportunity to talk about the safety and security of the American people, that this is the highest priority for the President of the United States, and it should be for any President of the United States. And I think what you saw last night from the President and the Prime Minister were some very strong statements that reminded the American people about the importance of acting on the dangerous threats we face in the 21st century, and acting on the new threats we face in the post-September 11th world.

Q Are you worried about the political damage this may have caused the President?

MR. McCLELLAN: No, we continue to look forward to discussing the war on terrorism, because of how important it is to the long-term security of America and the safety and security of the American people. This is about confronting threats, not ignoring them. This is about acting on threats that we face before it’s too late.

sorry that was so long. I think this is germane to it all, isn’t it?

Fitz. Sure, sure. Legal proceeding. That’s all the dumb fuck has left to say. What a sorry excuse for a human being. Poor bastard.

Now, who has the guts to ask the same question over and over for 30 minutes? Hmmm?

RossK,

Good question…he might could be the cutout fer the president and or Cheney, but Hadley and the rest of the lyin scumbags in the WHIG are still hangin out for perhury and obstruction if not wors. And, remember, Fitz knows Libby first buzzed Miller with the PDF some time before the date on the current indictment. If Fitz ken squeeze a date or documentation of the “declassification” out of someone (unlikely but he’s cuttin off most a the executive playin field on this)…he getz ‘em all if he’s got what we think he’s got.

KEEP THE FAITH LET ‘EM DUKE IT OUT WITH GOD!!!

Wheneve Snotty says “we look forward to working with” or “we look forward to sharing”, well you know.

Not so much.

Bullseye Jane, as per usual.

From Snottie McMuffin’s WH Press Bluffing today:
“Scott McClellan: Terry, there is an ongoing legal proceeding, and our policy has been that we’re not going to comment on it while it’s ongoing. And that remains our policy.”

Here’s Snottie commenting on veracity in the “ongoing” CIA leak “legal proceeding” today.
“Scott McClellan: That’s not what the filing says. Go back and look at the filing. That’s absolutely false.”
When Snottie wants to comment on an “ongoing legal proceeding,” he comments. When he doesn’t want to comment, he says: “there is an ongoing legal proceeding, and our policy has been that we’re not going to comment on it while it’s ongoing.”

Norske: “Fitz knows Libby first buzzed Miller with the PDF some time before the date on the current indictment.”

And so do we, dear, so do we.

EPU’d rats

Thanks Jane and Christy, you’re the Hostesses with the Mostesses.

Ah, I missed my big heaping helping of Plamegate red meat these last few months. Nice to know Fitz is firing up the grill again. I like my NeoCon Well Done. And I just love the taste of Smoked Wingnuttia a la Chickenhawk with a good white whine.

And as an added bonus appetizer, there’s lots of Media Crow to go around. Hmm, good.

That’s right folks, Crow, the Other White Meat.

Nothing can spin this away and the issue of when revolves around some very clear and specific rules for declassification.

Whatever the kabuki dance to avoid admitting the truth, the Plame case is on Bush’s desk now and that is where it should be. At last.

NFireChucker-

Thanks.

So the date’s the thing, not the stamp?

____
btw – if it does come down to the Ultimate CO I would think Hadley and the entire WHIG, maybe even including BigTime, might be somewhat less then penultimate and thus always ready to rise again upon the next rearing of the next post-pardon scourge (see Poindexter, Admiral etc.)

The whole notion that Bush authorizing a leak is equal to declassification is mendacious. It was also put forward by Cheney’s lawyer, Addington. Why is the traditional press swallowing this?

This whole administration is Nixon’s wet dream. With kiddie porn.

Hey, I know where they can find some stamps! Rubber ones!

Reminder: This is day 2,015 since March 20, 2003. People are still dying.

KEEP THE FAITH, WE’RE ALL RESPONSIBLE!!

Answering #142 of previous thread.

Fitz is not AG, he is not a cabinet officer. There was a huge motion this week about whethter or not Fitz’s appointment was unconstitutional and he and Comey both put in affidavit’s saying that the Special Prosecutor is an “inferiror”=not a constitutional officer, unlike the AG who is a constitutional officer.

Fitz’s appointment as US Atty for NDIL expired last fall about the same time as the first GJ. He is now a holdover and can be fired from the Chicago gig at any time for no reason.

He cannot be fired by just anyoldbody from the Sp. Pros. gig. Only Margolis. However, as I stated in a previous comment, Margolis has people above him who can legally order him to do it.

Fitz specifically said in his motion papers that he could be fired at any time. So he cannot argue that he can’t be fired.

However, as I also said in a previous comment, the GOP will go nuts on any lameduck president that tries to destroy the party to save himself.

If Bush fires Fitz, the GOP ers have to fire/impeach Bush to save their own skins from a decade of lost elections

NorskeFlamethrower @ 3:35 pm (#19) And, remember, Fitz knows Libby first buzzed Miller with the PDF some time before the date on the current indictment.

Libby gave Miller an electronic copy of the NIE? If so, was it a complete copy, or redacted? I’m guessing the latter, but it would sure be nice to know the contents.

Here’s Snottie McMuffin’s latest distinction without a difference: “Now the disclosing, the unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to a program like the terrorist surveillance program is harmful to our nation’s security. It provides the enemy our play book, and the enemy can adapt and adjust when they learn about our tactics. And General Hayden has talked about how that is harmful to our nation’s security. Others in the administration have talked about how that has been harmful to our nation’s security. So there’s a distinction –
QUESTION: So you’re specifically saying no harm done –Scott McClellan: — there’s a distinction between declassifying information that is in the public interest and the unauthorized disclosure of classified information that could compromise our nation’s security.
Based on what Isikoff said today on Tweety, the Leaker-in-Chief’s leaks to Woodward are in Woodward’s books. IIRC correctly, Woodward’s books about Iraq are “The Commanders,” “Plan of Attack,” and “Bush at War”

Crow, the Other White Meat.

That would be Crow, the MSM White Meat Cocktail Weenie.

Jane, Clearly you and Christy have built a temple to candor, clarity, and accuracy here in the aether. You’re goddesses, it’s that simple.

In relation to the Post topic of stamps,shouldn’t the date stamped on the ‘declassification’ of the Executive Summary dovetail neatly with the timeline on Scooter and JudyJudyJudy?

Obviously for the WH, the time stamp can’t be after Scooter laissez-faire liaison with ‘Miller Time’. Is the WH that stupid to forget Lying 101, alway claim you made it legal Before the deed was done, not afterwards?

Duh?

EPU’d below, but per the filings and Affidavits in connection with the Motion to Dismiss, McNulty is the guy with the authority to take back supervision from Margolis and to revoke the delegation to Fitzgerald.

fwiw.

Gentleman Jim, Yum, what a menu!

And I almost forgot, Frogger, it is SO good to see you back, hope life is treating you well.

Jane, John Dean made a very similar comment in his recent article (FindLaw) about abuse of power. I watched the House last night as they took Abu through his paces, and it reminded me of the Alito Hearings as the Dems were appropriately appalled (Maxine Waters “Shame on You”) and the Repugs lobbed softballs and air kisses. One Dem Rep from Fla was actually almost screaming at him. It made me wonder how this newest information might fall on those air kissers in terms of causing a little critical thinking in terms of Conyers’ Impeachment Bill. They asked some questions about FISA, but often in an attempt to help Abu clarify the Admin’s “correct and legal” position, were more critical about gun legislation and law. Since the House is where the govt is assessed for thier compliance with the Cosntitution, I found that pretty unsettling.

OT but speaking of being rubber stamped, Ellen Goodman has written a column in The Boston Globe about blogs and the nastiness which erupted when Jill Carroll was released.

Bloggers owe Carroll an apology

She is rightly angered about some of the race-baiting viciousness which poisoned the first few hours after Jill’s release. And she does make a point of going after Imus et al. But she does not differentiate between “left” bloggers or ‘right” bloggers. Its just “bloggers.” And there is no mention of Kurtz’ awfulness on the Wapo website.

Nevertheless, this is not a good moment for the bustling, energetic Wild West of the new Internet media. Remember when a former CBS executive described bloggers as guys in pajamas writing in their living rooms? Well, it seems that many have only one exercise routine: jumping to conclusions.

In the hours between captivity and true freedom, Carroll was seen in one propaganda film describing the mujahideen as ”good people fighting an honorable fight” and in another interview saying she was never threatened. An online jeering section bought it hook, line, and sinker without waiting to hear that the videos were made under threat. As Alex Jones of Harvard’s Shorenstein Center said, ”They were gulled by a clever piece of propaganda and ought to be ashamed of themselves.”

[…]

The political bloggers first flexed their muscle in 2002 when they trumped the MSM — blogspeak for Mainstream Media — by forcing Trent Lott out of the Senate speakership after he toasted the good old segregated days of Strom Thurmond. In 2004, they proved the power of the Internet as a great equalizer when they confronted the house of CBS and Dan Rather over Bush’s military records.

Two years later, we have — ready, fire, aim — the Jill Carroll affair. These attacks raise the question of what bloggery is going to be when it grows up. An Internet op-ed page? Or a polarized, talk-radio food fight?

If Goodman had identified the slant of the blogs she is describing it would be a great article, but she doesn’t and in so doing leaves the impression that all blogs are guilty of such tactics.

Goodman’s address is ellengoodman at globe (dot) com.

If Bush fires Fitz, the rubber-stamp republicans will sit with their fingers in their ears. They will do nothing. And the story ends. His polls are so low now that they having nothing to lose except — their freedom, so better be hazed for the firing, than in court.

I am a total skeptic about any republicans taking a stand. Or dems for that matter, other than that already are speak up.

headjustoutsidescrum–

Are you foreshadowing a Sat afternoon at the Opera massacre?

.

OT GSD 28 below thread – I just can’t believe that – they had a warrant to remove fillings for the gold?

WOW.

Grandma J – I agree. I’m dubious about the idea that if Bush were to fire Fitz then the Republicans in congress would suddenly start acting up. I’ll believe it when I see it.

There is this CFR on use of nonpublic info.

http://tinyurl.com/zh64v

Might apply to LIbby, exec selec declass and unwritten auth notwithstanding.

I’m not sure how applicable, but I do think that the final definition of “nonpublic” info would have some relationship to declassification too. I think if you don’t meet that definition (generally avail to public) via your “declassification” then you are at dissemination instead – which is a bit diff)

§ 2635.703 Use of nonpublic information.
(a) Prohibition. An employee shall not
engage in a financial transaction using
nonpublic information, nor allow the
improper use of nonpublic information
to further his own private interest or
that of another, whether through advice
or recommendation, or by knowing
unauthorized disclosure.
(b) Definition of nonpublic information.
For purposes of this section, nonpublic
information is information that the employee
gains by reason of Federal employment
and that he knows or reasonably
should know has not been made
available to the general public. It includes
information that he knows or
reasonably should know:
(1) Is routinely exempt from disclosure
under 5 U.S.C. 552 or otherwise
protected from disclosure by statute,
Executive order or regulation;
(2) Is designated as confidential by an
agency; or
(3) Has not actually been disseminated to the general public and is not
authorized to be made available to the public on request.

looseheadprop – Thanks for you comment. That’s what you THINK they will do. Here is what I think. They will go down in flames. Every single one of them. They are freekin nuts. They know us dems will be so intimidated that we will not come after them. Look around you. How many of your friends will quit their jobs to go to Wash to drive them out?… HOW MANY?… HOW MANY? No, we dems are too weak to do ANYTHING and they know it. That’s the reality.

FWIW, (and just in case it hasn’t been mentioned yet,) TPM Muckraker put up a brief timeline of the declassification of the NIE. link

Jane

“Using legitimate presidential powers (declassification) for illegitimate purposes (to make a political attack) is the very definition of abuse of power.”

The very thing that got Nixon in the end!!

“As I keep on pointing out soldiers are human too. I’ve been in this situation and it’s terrifying. And yet you somehow have to remain calm.”

Hi Folks as Jane and everyone here knows while this is going on young Americans are in a country where they have no business being so that the spokesweasel and his cronys and his masters can continue to rob you blind.

I’ve put a posting on one of my two blogs of marines under fire and trying to take cover. You may find it distressing.

“Quit pushing me from underneath the table!”

If you find it distressing – well too bad, I’ve been in this situation and I know how they feel. You’re sitting at home in comfort, you don’t know how they feel.

Bring them home now. If your representative won’t fight for these people (did I mention that American soldiers are people?) No?

American soldiers are people.

If your representative won’t fight for these people then you need new reperesentatives because they sure as hee won’t fight for you either. Get active. Firedoglake is a good place to learn how to get active.

Get angry and stay that way.

Kathi/Nanakat raised a good issue that has been EPU’d, but I think it makes a point:

“libbys’ “lie’ was that he heard first from reporters about the identity of Valerie PLame. Does his testimony that he was acting to disseminate classfied information under the direction of the Veep and preznit undermine that assertions.”

Put another way, doesn’t his testimony that he was auuthorized to release the info to Judyjudyjudy mean that he essentially admitted that he is guilty of the charges? Or am I misremembering the timeline on how these lies were laid out? And is his defense that he just got confused about which came first?

Mary, i answered your EPU’s post below.

I swear I’m not this dense, but we haven’t talked nuts and bolts in a while.

Redd, you may have already seen this nod to you over at MyDD:

Cristy Hardin Smith has some great questions:

california_reality_check — were you serious last night about that slogan, etc? Not sure I can be much help, but I’m intrigued.

ck – I’m with lhp.

Also, even an AG or someone who has gone through advice and consent can be fired by the Prez. Of course, he may have real problems getting his new pick approved ;-) after that.

It’s also “revoke the delegation” technically, as opposed to “fired” not that it makes much difference. OTOH, the President technically by statute can fire Fitzgerald from his US Atty slot.

Margolis supposedly could revoke (or amend and modify) the delegation (amend and modify meaning require greater interaction with others at DOJ for decision making) and McNulty could revoke the delegation to Margolis of the supervision (or amend or modify it so that Margolis has to interact more with McNulty on the supervision) and if McNulty ends up with the supervision directly in his office, then he could revoke the Fitzgerald delegation, or amend or modify.

I think at least a couple lawyers here were of the “won’t happen, no way no how” frame of mind on that. I’m ????? ever since I read the Yoo and Bybee memos and watched Padilla unfold as to what people will or won’t do in DOJ.

I got EPU’d???

ARRRRGH!!

zennurse

I wasn’t sure about that, it just seems to me at this point that he’s kinda got himself in a trap. you can’t have your cake and eat it too as it were. my left caps key has now got the hiccups!

headjustoutsidescrum–

Are you foreshadowing a Sat afternoon at the Opera massacre?

Ross, are we rugby buddies?

I’m not getting the “opera” reference.

But, if I understand your question. No, I don’t think firing Fitz from the Sp. Pros. job is going to happen in the near future. There are other things that have less downside potential for them if they want to retailiate. Considering all the retaliation that they have already done that never got reported in the press or anywhere else which failed to deter him, I don’t think he is stoppable no matter what they do.

Mary says:
April 7th, 2006 at 3:59 pm

Although I saw a refernce to 5 USC 552 in your post, I’m wondering whether the regulation you cited is associated with other United States Code sections as well. Is there some other way to cite that regulation? I’m thinking, of course, of the numbering of Treasury Regulations that interpret sections of the Internal Revenue Code.

zennurse 49 –

The question of whether Libby disclosed classified or declassified NIE information is immaterial to his indictment — which was for lying to the GJ, and lying to the FBI.

What causing all the buzz today is that the latest Fitzgerald filing reveals Libby’s assertion that Cheney told him the preznit had authorized the leaks — and the White House has effectively confirmed this.

Does that help?

=====

If he(Libby) was being directed to leak certain information, then why should anyone believe that he did not also leak plames’ name.

Tweety is also making a good point, since all three, VP, Prez and he were in on the leaking, is this not proof of a conspiracy?

markfromireland,

Bless your heart, brother…2,015 days and counting and the kids hunkerin down in the sand over there are jest tryin ta keep themselves and their buddies alive. An not to forget the Iraqis who have paid and will continue to pay a terrible price.

I look forward to your posts, keep the moral pressure on us and…

KEEP THE FAITH AND DO THE RIGHT THING, GOD’S WATCHIN’!!!

Waiting out tornadoes in nashville here. . .
I just went to the WH’s site to read the transcript of the press conference, did a search for “stamp,” and that exchange regarding the presence of a time stamp did NOT come up. Someone help. . .has the WH scrubbed the transcript?

If the chimp brigade has the authority to fire Fitz, I’m thinking that is a lock. For a while there, nobody knew if Fitz was a player for the good or the bad guys. This recent revelation should guarantee Fitz’s removal. Damage control demands it. They’ve got to get rid of him and damn the consequences. He’s too smart and he is very dangerous to the chimps.

Kathi/Nankat,

Bingo!! There it is on one of the winger propaganda shows…you ken bet he didn’t ask that question without the approval of the corporate folks. I think this thing is gunna start movin a lot faster’n we have thought up to now.

KEEP THE FAITH, THE FOLKS IN IRAQ ARE COUNTIN’ ON US!!!

Haven’t read all the comments but today is a banner day for FDL. Awsome work as usual ladies!

I just can’t help but think about the public in general seeing this flagrant lying and thinking you know I was giving them the benefit of the doubt but now that I see how repeated the lies were…not so much. The thing is the everyday uninterested person can easily wrap their head around this lie. Pretty easy to see that there is not definition of “what is is” like statement to be made. He went on national tv and said not sure who the leaker is “duh”. JAR hitting the floor as it were.

Afterthought but remember the press dinner where he looked all over for WMD? Would be a good time to revive that clip. Clips are worth 100,000 words. Bush lied. Bush made fun about his lies. Men and women and children died for his lies.

Stephen – but I linked was a CFR, not a USC, but the CFRs have some USC cross cites (I have not spent a lot of time with them – I just threw that quickie in as a fwiw) I wouldn’t hang my hat on just a CFR, but I thought it was information.

lhp – I cross posted and didn’t see your post until after. I will say that when I raised the issue of McNulty in the chain right after the Affidavits were filed, SEVERAL other litigators had your same take — not to worry about the Spec. Prosec. being removed, no matter what the “technical authority” so you have company.

I just see so much crap and wonder how McNulty even managed to get an appointment with this crew if he is not a blind loyalist, but I’m a worrier by nature. Botox would lose the battle with me in a heartbeat.

Norske – I pray you are right that this whole thing is going to accelerate.

Also, where does your name come from? Are you of northern european descent?

I think Fitz walked into this fully aware of just how ugly it could get, how much it could cost him and everyone he cares about ( and they have willingly paid the price) and he agreed to do it anyway.

He is willingly walking into fire.

You know, there is only so much one man can do. Fitz is only one man. The rest of it, forcing our Congressman and Senators to do their jobs, electing real leaders, forcing the press to get off the stick, taking back our government–we have to do that!

He’s a lawyer, not a magician, not a demi-god. He can’t waive a mgic wand and make all of our problems go away. WE have to solve our own problems, ourselves.

That’s what I hate about the Vichy Dems. They are sitting on their lard asses waiting for him or someone else to hand them a mojority in November.

Remember, he’s apolitical. He is not gonna willingly turn into a tool of the Dems. He just catches crooks and puts em away.

norske

i think i mispoke. Chris didn’t use the word conspiracy, but he die point out that the only three people who knew about this were cheney , Bush and libby. i got the lightbulb that this might be proof of conspiracy. i do think Tweety is real suspicious of this issue.

Mary @ 3:59 pm – I remember getting similar guidance about “For Official Use Only” (FOUO) documents, which seemed to be just about anything that wasn’t published for the general public (this was in DoD). I sometimes wonder if any leak I hear about doesn’t violate these guidelines.

As I ointed out earlier, there’s a similar provision in EO 13292 that would seem to prohibit just the sort of selective declassification the Bush Admin. appears to have engaged in with the NIE. Stephen Parrish, CPA asked a question that that I couldn’t answer very well relative to trying to apply that rule here, but I still have to wonder.

Mary 52 & lhp –

Well, there goes another one of my cherished fantasies. I guess that whole “plenary powers” thingy was effectively negated by the limited powers of Deputy AG Comey.

Shorter version — Comey couldn’t grant what he didn’t have.

But I’m especially bummed that Fitz acknowledged his limited mandate in his response to the TL challenge. Oh well . . .

But what I don’t understand is why BushCo has been so complacent. Maybe it’s that whole criminal referral from the CIA thing, and Harriet Miers inability to effectively convey the gravity of the situation in one of the preznit’s coloring books.

=====

Maybe the GOP should rethink it’s new ad campaign of “If you vote for Democrats, Bush will get censured or impeached”.

I do have to play devil’s advocate for a minute. If I had just been put in the position Libby was, to meet with a reporter and leak NIE cherry picks (esp. if I knew that others were pressing for the whole doc to come out and that some of my cherrypicking might come back to haunt me as well, and MORE esp if I knew about the pdb on aluminum tubes that was floating too , if Waas is correct and I actually think in just the right circumstances, with that recipe you could, conceivably, cook (*G*) a story about having all those things on you mind to the extent that it “just slipped†out about Valerie Plame being in the CIA during that one Miller conversation.

What doesn’t cook would be all the other conversations with everyone else, the JUNE (remember the June meeting?) meeting with Miller where it also came up, the Fleischer conversation, etc.

OK – so the devil wouldn’t hire me as an advocate. Still, I can see where the genesis of the defense came from, but they lost me at Deuteronomy.

Mary,
McNulty had a pretty good rep among his peers when he was UA Atty in Va. He made good cases. Also, that was Comey’s old office (Comey was a two USAO guy Va and NY)and Comey gave McNulty a lot of plums. Enron task force gig, stuff like that. I’ve never heard anything bad about him.

Do I believe he will go to the mats and resign to protect Pat? Doubtful. I just don’t think it’s ever gonna come to that. It the dumbest way to try to kill off the investigation.

Bonnie – Use the Gaggle link at the top of this post, up there by Snotty Scotty’s picture. The Gaggle is different than the official press briefing.

GrandmaJ @ 3:53 pm (#38) – I’m afraid I share your skepticism. There don’t seem to be many Howard Bakers or Sam Ervins out there any more.

loosheadprop–

Re: the rugby buddy thing….

Probably not. I quit rugby in junior highschool because they kept squeezing me between big sweaty ear grinding guys like you (ie. they made me play hooker). Given that it is a pretty big thing up here in left coast Canuckistan my Dad never forgave me.

The opera reference means nothing but the afternoon one does, given that I figure these people would probably try something so stupid in broad daylight.

So, maybe I should change that to Sat morning with Lancelot Link and the Secret Chimp.

OT, re: racism, did anyone hear the essay by the head of the Minutemen on All Things Considered? Words like invasion and sovereignty. Talking about the high tech wall he wants built with armed guards in towers and sonar to detect tunnels.
“A sovereign nation of assimilated americans”

I feel like David gave us a translator last night and now I can hear so much I haven’t before.
Thanks David and thanks to Jane and Christy.
This is a real gift.

Don’tcha love Tweety’s creepy music and graphics already?

Jason Leopold says today at truthout that according to four lawyers who have read the transcript, Bush told Fitzgerald and the FBI that he hadn’t been involved/had no knowledge of the leaks. I thought that because Bush wasn’t under oath he’d skate, but apparently he can be charged with making false statements. If what Leopols writes is true, Chimpy is going to be charged ! Has this already been discussed here, and if so what is the consensus opinion please?

zennurse @ 4:29 pm (#76) “A sovereign nation of assimilated americansâ€

Can’t help seeing this image when they say “assimilated”.

If the survival of our nation is pegged on the likes of Bill Frist and Joe Lieberman…roll up the blanket, the pic-nic is over.

-GSD

Mary the devil’s advocate:

I don’t think it occured to Libby for one minute that he was gonna get caught, or that if he was caught the majic phrase “the president authorized me” would not end any inquiry right there.

Up until Joe Wilson, everybody always backed down. This bunch operates like the mafia—I’m serious here, literally like the mafia.

This is how the mafia does things:
-first they try to intimidate you just by stand too close when they talk to you and referring obscurly to bad things happening.

-then they overtly threaten you

-then they vandalize something you own or care about

-then they rough you up

-then they kill you.(Sometimes there is a step before this where they kill someone you love)

At any point along this escalating path, you can make it stop, by backing down and doing what they want.

This is how they work.

Oh, and there is always some sort of carrot in with the intimidation, so that you can rationalize it to youself when you give in.

This has been NY 5 families mafia MO for years. There are expert witnesses that testify to this. There are psychologocal studies about how it works (about how the carrot works to make the victim succumb).

They didn’t expect anyone to stand up to them, when they botched the crime.

Never underestimate the POWER of an honest man.

harry says:
April 7th, 2006 at 4:31 pm

Some discussion about Jason Leopold’s two stories in yesterday’s truthout started shortly after they appeared. I haven’t seen a consensus opinion yet.

Have you read Robert Parry’s story appearing today at truthout?

Okay, before reading all the comments, I have a complaint. Before I started reading Jane and Redd/Christy, I could watch the news, listen to reporters explain stuff and not scream, swear, throw stuff at the TV, because I assumed that within a modest degree inaccuracy and vagueness, they knew what they were talking about. Can’t do that anymore.

Just listened to Matthews, who’s actually trying to put it together but is still missing key points, accept totally false statements, confusion and misdirection from Ben Ginsburg, Judy Miller’s atty Bill Bennett, Newsweek’s Mike Isikoff and NYT’s Anne Kornblum (sp?). Arghhhh! It’s all Jane’s fault, and you too Redd. I hate growing up.

lhp -

“Considering all the retaliation that they have already done that never got reported in the press or anywhere else which failed to deter him . . .”

Any chance you could elaborate on that?

It may be telling that McClellan did *not* defend Cheney’s claim to declassify whatever he wants! He very intentionally sidestepped it. Check it out…

QUESTION: To whom has President Bush delegated authority to declassify information, in general? The Vice President –

Scott McClellan: There’s an executive order from March of 2003 that that’s the most recent executive order on classification issues, and you might want to take a look at that.

QUESTION: Can I get a copy from you, please?

Scott McClellan: Yes, it’s on our website, too.

QUESTION: And so the Vice President –

Scott McClellan: I think the latter part of March, 2003.

QUESTION: Thank you. And Vice President Cheney –

Scott McClellan: A couple more questions, then we’ve got to go to the week ahead. I’ve got to go to this roundtable.

QUESTION: Vice President Cheney is on that list?

Scott McClellan: But I’ll be back. I know you all are looking forward to it, like I am. (Laughter.) Go ahead.

QUESTION: Vice President Cheney is on the list of people who have the authority to declassify?
Scott McClellan: Well, talk to — you can talk to the Vice President’s Office, but that’s — the executive order talks about the classification issues. But about his specific issues, talk to his office. There are some constitutional separation of powers issues involved there.

Go ahead.

‘All employees must wash hands before returning to work’

Harry #78,

I don’t think you can charge a sitting president with anything. Even if he’s a chimp.

David Brooks just said on NPR’s News Hour that the Traitorgate has no traction. And oh, by the way, he also received the leak directly from Libby. Hack.

Mark From Ireland.

That video was very upsetting. What a tragedy this whole thing is, day in and day out.

Also this quote from Juan Cole is scary.

“The Mahdi Army, the Sadrist paramilitary, is stockpiling arms in expectation of an American attack on them in Najaf.”

We will have civil war plus Sunni and Shiites fighting the US.

What a mess.

Nixon + Johnson = Bush.

-GSD

Jane-

Do we at FDL need to place another mass stamp order ala Rubber Stamp Republican Congress?

This time let’s send the WH stamps that say:

DECLASSIFIED BY PRESIDENT BUSH FOR POLITCAL PURPOSES

I’ll buy ten.

harry,

I saw that Jason Leopold post…until today, I didn’t think the case would move fast enough to catch up to der Fuerer except by impeachment but I think yer right. The fascist overseer is gunna be named at least as “unindicted co-conspirator” unless they try and take out Fitz…then it’ll be simple impeachment and if it’s before November, a tidal wave for Democrats.

KEEP THE FAITH AND WE’LL WATCH ‘EM ALL FALL!!

darkblack, do you just crank those graphics out all day? Every day, more and more great Bush PhotoShop.
Thanks.

Remember, he’s apolitical. He is not gonna willingly turn into a tool of the Dems.

I thought about that in connection with the post below thread A question for the prosecutors around here: at what point does Fitzgerald stop being willing to deal?

You know, not only does he seem pretty apolitical, he seems to be really trying to preserve respect for the positions of the branches of govt and authority, despite having to in some ways go after them. Prosecutorial discretion is always a factor, and I have to think that if there is a way to do some semblance of service of justice, but in a fashion that still preserves the integrity of the institutions and offices, if I was representing some of the lead cast I’d make that play up to the very end and I think it would at least get a solid listen.

All subject to what he really has and how the flag unfurls. My guess is he is very sensitive to the kind of damage that can be done in his position and, much as I would like to see it on one hand, I do believe that you have to be careful between the actions you take where individuals and institutions are very intertwined. BTW – I have to wonder about some of the first GJ members — if they had this info too for this long and have had to keep their mouths shut??? ARGH!! I would have HATED that and if I was Fitzgerald and had that kind of stuff for this new GJ, I would wait as long as possible to tell them stuff. People are only human after all (most of us at least) and some of that stuff has got to be incredibly hard for a GJ to not discuss

I don’t really want to see bad guys put away on this all that much (is that bad?) – I just want what I can’t have – I want them gone and policies reversed. To get all of the worst out (Addington, Haynes, Gonzales and posse, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Chertoff –bc he’s incompetent more than evil, ) Clorox the Torture files and opinions – OLC, DOJ and JAG corps/military chain, and get someone in who will run things with a respect for law and for competence over –personal loyalty, etc. . It is a cold comfort for me to see someone like Libby do time, when all the same policies that have been generated stay in place and the decision makers remain the same. And I worry much that this could happen – Libby get convicted, but nothing changes.

Bush will just, again, pull his- “I did what I felt I had to in order to protect the country, soldiers were in the line of fire and there were subversive forces trying to undermine support for the war at a critical juncture when our soldiers needed our support, and you can disagree with my decisions, but I made them as CIC for the benefit of the country.†GOP with stand and cheer; Feingold, Leahy, Conyers, and a small handful of others will be disgusted and walk – and that’s that. I really hope not, but I’m jaded. OTOH – per one of my other EPU’d posts – I think Feingold is the reason for Sensenbrenner’s newly discovered “chairmanship of House Judiciary means I make this AG answer a few questions†attitude. I think Wisconsin-ers are making a mental comparison with Feingold and he was not coming off as well as he thought he would.

Shoogarp
I was thinking a bunch of Pat Fitzgerald bobbleheads (holding indictments) sent to the WH.

Or Nixon

Bonnie #60
Stay safe. We just called friends in Lebanon,Tenn. to see if they were alright.
Weather Channel had red boxes all over the place but I am not telling you anything you do not know. Again, stay safe.

Mary, I think we saw that quality in his press conference when he talked about the seriousness of the crime charged. I think he truly just believes in justice and has no political stake in this, which keeps him able to be respectful of the process.

OT:

Frist gets in touch with his pillow biting side

;>)

Warm fuzzy post at MyDD — Bush’s “Honesty” Problem:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/7/181428/2768

=====

OT but important other news today. A major mosque was blown up in Baghdad today killing at least 71 people by 3 suicide bombers, including one woman (is that a 1st for Iraq?) In a NY Times article, this statement by US ambassador Khalilzad caught my attention, “if a unified government is not formed soon, a sectarian war could erupt in Iraq and that such a war could engulf the entire Middle East. (my emphasis)

That is what the US man in Baghdad thinks. Why is he saying things like that to the press? Is it because no one in Washington is listening, as they have not been listening all along? Is it because they are too busy covering their political *sses? And what is up with Congress? Why aren’t more Dems taking this on?

In other words, while one of the most volatile places world goes up in smoke, our leaders of the most powerful nation on earth are twiddling their thumbs in Washington – er – playing dirty tricks against their political opponents and lamely trying to obfuscate their culpability.

In the summer of 2003, there might still have been an opportunity to turn things around over there. That is, if that had been what they were doing with their time. But no, they were leaking and spinning away. Was that in the “national interest?”

None of this had to be. It is so unbelievably stupid. And the enormous loss of human life is tragic.

scarecrow, re: reading firedoglake vs CM, I used to get my news from the NYT!!!!

If Bush and Mary’s chain of command finally managed to fire Fitzgerald, would they have to have a reason? Like grounds or an accusation of fault, or could they just do it out of spite?

Hi guys — am just here for a sec before leaving for p.t. Here’s my question:

WHO is this guy subbing for Keith? He is majorly funny, very, very snarky. I love him already, just minutes into the show!

New guy subbing for KO tonight. Great lines:
At the presidential briefing today, he bent English in a way that can only be envied by Gumby.

This is going to be good.

Zennures – Comey and Fitzgerald both filed affidavits saying the delegation is revocalbe “at will.”

At will means “for any reason or for no reason.”

His name is “Brian” something — reporter Harwood just called him that.

Man, he is REALLY good. Very funny, smart.

Thanks timewarp, I couldn’t have said it better.
An utter tragedy which we must work hard to stop.

This is a link from the above MyDD article

Pollkatz

also, I seem to have messed up my prev lint to

Public Radio Fan

I wasn’t familiar with David Margolis before Plame, but these are some impressive credentials:

David Margolis David Margolis
Associate Deputy Attorney General
Office of the Deputy Attorney General

Throughout his extraordinary public service, Mr. Margolis has served with honor and distinction. He has become the Department of Justice’s embodiment of integrity, determination, and judgment. Of particular note, he set up the process by which the Department’s disciplinary system for its lawyers has been opened to public scrutiny thereby fostering public confidence and at the same time assuring that the important privacy rights of federal employees are protected. In addition, Mr. Margolis was instrumental in helping to develop and implement one of the Department’s most important ethical initiatives, the formation of the Professional Responsibility Advisory Board, which provides Department attorneys with consistent training and guidance on professional responsibility issues. It is a measure both of Mr. Margolis’ integrity and of the high esteem in which he is held within the Department that Mr. Margolis was selected to be the Professional Responsibility Advisory Board’s first chairperson.
***

I’m glad to know we have some very dedicated moral individuals in high places. If it’s not Congress, at what point cannot all the career men and women in Justice rise up and demand that integrity of applying the rule of law prevail (even if it is behind the scenes)? I sure hope that enough principled people have the strength to help us keep faith in our system.
.

What still burns my butt about this is that even when portions of it were declassified (for both the purposes of the getting Congress to go along with war and for later trying to quash the Wilson claims), they only released the parts that made them look good. Hell, Bob Graham wrote about that six months ago.

More to point, I think, is that the NIE in question was done at the request of Congress, not of the White House, as a requisite justification for an AUMF.

In that sense, the NIE, from the start, was intended by the administration to be used as a political document, rather than as an honestly-drawn intelligence assessment on which policy was then to be based. Neither Bush nor Cheney nor anyone in the White House asked for an NIE on Iraq. That, if anything, should say something profound about the invasion being preordained.

That Tenet shepherded a document useful to Bush through the process says a whole bunch about that rat bastard, but the fact that the White House interfered with the declassification of the bits that they didn’t like says a lot more about their intentions for that NIE, once it had to be done.

And Snotty Scotty knows all that. Let’s hope that the few reporters asking him pointed questions get him good and rattled on that and more.

Damn.
Thanks Mary.

I’ve been busy all day, popping in and out. Could someone(Mary,Christy or other lawyer types)Please stoop down to my level of understanding and give a real quick ‘whats next’? Wrt to waiting on the judge and next probable scenario. Thanks in advance.

At Last!!!

I look in every day, twice a day, nothing since 3/28, but today Wolcott speaks and it appears FDL is part of his thoughts yet again.

Love James Wolcott

timewarp – thanks for the mosque post.

The Plame case is interesting and I wonder/worry about the underlying dmage of outing all of Brewster Jennings and associates, as well as just the effect of having such vicious adminstrative response to any perceived criticims, however truthful and on target it may be. but in the end – I think all the “good guys” in DOJ will have more than their work cut out for them to ever really address everyting that the Admin and DOJ inner circle, allowed to happen.

lhp – is the rugby how you stay so even keel?
My old UPS driver told me its how he worked off the job stuff. I have to resort to pounding my own head on the wall.

Oh, darkblack, I just love you!

I guess I still don’t understand all the complexities of this matter, but it seems to me that if the President had in fact legally declassified the information, and Libby was not violating any statute by outing Plame to the news, then isn’t it the President’s duty to publicaly confirm this and stop an investigation that must be costing millions to the taxpayers? Wasn’t that his duty at the very beginning to avoid all the money spent to investigate this? Isn’t that the same argument the Republicans used with Clinton; that had he not lied, all the time and expense could have been avoided? What’s difference here?

BAGDAD BOB!

David Brooks just said on NPR’s News Hour that the Traitorgate has no traction.

I caught that, too. Do you suppose the cognitive dissonance makes his ears ring?

Ummmm,
I love the smell of a good ‘boulder rolling down the hill in the morning’. That ‘Boulder-Fresh’ fragrance stays with me all day!
dna

Shoot! I have to go. I will try and hook up later for more info. Everyone have a nice weekend.

Mary,

I think I detect a bit of pessimism behind your valiant attempts ta be a “realist” and a good lawyer in this thing. I really look forward to yer posts and can even understand most of ‘em (that’s a bow ta yer writing clarity), so I hope I ken give ya a boost here. I don’t think the fascists will dare fire Fitz before November, and I think that even though he is “apolitical”, Fitz is not politically stupid and will come down with more indictments before November. If they attempt to fire him if he does that (before November) I think it not only ensures a Democratic landslide in both houses but ensures impeachment of both executives.

The rest of what you want will only come if the fascist leadership is stupid enough to fire FItz and sweep the Dems in with enough “sauce” ta clean house.

KEEP THE FAITH, THE GOOD ONES WILL STILL BE GOOD WHEN THIS IS ALL OVER!!

Selective leaking- leaking to selected persons and leaking selected portions of. yes very very interesting.
What is funny is the declassification that is supposed to be public cannot be dated publicly because that would commenting on blah blah blah. What is funny to me is I’m sure that when Fitz asked bush ” do you have any information about who might have leaked the identity?” Bush said no one on my staff has acknowledged any connection to it- but did he say ‘I had no connection to this’?

Mary-

OK – so the devil wouldn’t hire me as an advocate.

Oh, but I would.

Still, I can see where the genesis of the defense came from, but they lost me at Deuteronomy.

*SNORT!*

Aheh.

That one caught me by surprise.

zennurse — thanks for finding that. Yep that Neiwert post may be post of the year so far. Good on Wolcott.

David Brooks on NPR just now saying, of course the WH is being hypocritical, but so are the Dems in that they dislike Libby’s NIE leak, but are fine with the NSA domestic spying leaks. (ie. the NSA “whistleblower” leaks.) Hmm, maybe Brooks is actually that “Tom” troll around here.

TJ -

“… if the President had in fact legally declassified the information, and Libby was not violating any statute…”

then why would it be necessary to [1] give it on the QT to ONE reporter “on deep background” (instead of holder a Presser and releasing the redacted NIE en masse), and [1] evade, obstruct, stonewall and proactively LIE since it was released?

It does not wash, and ANY person of even below average intellect should be able to understand that. That’s the political point we need to press relentlessly with the indifferent and/or fence-sitting public. If it was all so Noble and necessary, why all the subterfuge?

We know why.

MsAnnaNOLA #63
You hit on a strategy that I hope the Dems will follow through on. Paste EVERY one of his different denials (8 I believe) in TV ads and immediately after he makes the statement put up a banner on the screen with GWB in freeze frame and then put something like
“On April 6, 2006, court documents revealed that the President knew the ‘leaker’ on or before July 8, 2003.
George W. Bush Leaker-In-Chief.”
Late to the conversation so if this has been mentioned already. Sorry.

Hmmm, I too like the sub for Keith. Funny, smart, easy on the eyes, just the right amount of snark. Not Keith, of course, but an acceptable sub.

Brian Unger is the substitute for Olbermann tonite. This is a bio from a google search.

http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=4472991

TJ At 114:

Libby spoke with Miller about the NIE before it was declassified.

Check out this timeline:

TPM Muckraker

My rant to the Las Vegas Sun this morning (they called immediately, said they’d run it, probably this Sunday):

—
On the latest President-Leaks-at-Whim revelations:

Let us not fall for the White House red herring here. Assume Mr. Bush indeed has unlimited de-classification discretion. Why, then, did the President not then simply go public at the outset to “refute” Ambassador Wilson (even w/redactions), if it was SO vital to the nation’s interest? Why the necessity to leak it on deep background to Judith Miller, with no one apprised of it other than himself, Cheney, Libby and Ms. Miller? Why?

We know why. This dog just won’t hunt. Wake up, people. The President has been playing politics with national security all along, and the bloody, chaotic consequences are plain for all to see and are likely to just keep getting worse.

Enough is enough.

No, Jane, thank YOU, for introducing me to Wolcott, one of the many gifts of FDL.

B^+

TJ @ 114

Maybe they were trying to hide the source of the Plame leak from Tenet as long as they could.

Busted – I don’t think I have the “what’s next†that you are actually looking for (as in “the bigger picture†what’s next), but technically fwiw here are some of the what’s nexts.
1. On the Motion to Dismiss, Libby has asked for an oral argument and that will get set. I thought the Gov might ask to make one more filing, a sur-reply, but I don’t know if it will happen. If so, that date will get plugged in soon. I may go check the docket on PACER and see if any of the dates have been revised.
2. On some of the Motions in respect of discovery, the Judge has ruled.
A. The most recent ruling had to do with Libby’s objection to having things filed “ex parte†under seal. Ex parte means just one side is “there†talking to the judge (or there in the person of their filing). Libby had made two objections, first that too much stuff was being sealed and there should be a stricter standard, especially since Libby is getting ready to subpoena reporters and has been authorized to talk to reporters about some of what is under seal, and doesn’t want to have to file all their reporter skirmishes that involve sealed info under seal, and second that they could tell from the ex parte redactions that there was “argument†being made to the court about “why†stuff should be sealed and that even if it was ok to have stuff filed ex parte and sealed, it was not ok to let the gove make its arguments as to why things should be sealed in an ex parte fashion (e.g., if gov argues a legal point, we should get to respond). Court and Fitzgerald pretty much reviewed the statutory grounds and the nature of his ex parte submissions has apparently according to both been more in the nature of “here’s what else is going on and why this needs to be under seal†– more “factual†info and not so much legal argument. Court has ruled pretty much for the Spec. Prosecutor.
B. On discovery motions related to, among other things, the production by the CIA of the pdbs, the judge has ruled and a couple of things are going on. First, there have been extensions of time requested, bc the CIA has said it is taking much longer to put together the topic summaries that the judge did order provided. Once those are all reviewed, they (CIA) are still reserving the right to make some claims if required in respect of exec privilege, etc. although the preliminary indication in the Prosecutor’s request for clarification (extension really) was that CIA and WH were not making big waves on the Exec Privilege front. However, in this most recent filing, the Fitzgerald IS asking the court to reconsider, not the “holding†of its order on this matter, but some of its rationale. I had wondered at the time about the alignment and free flow arguments, and may post more on those later, but Fitzgerald has put this in. To be honest, I expect Libby to make a big deal out of this in the reply to Fitzgerald’s response. That will be coming up.
3. Reporters are in the process of being subpoenaed and filing objections/motions to quash the subpoenas. I would have to check the date set in the hearing (its in the transcript that was posted earlier) but the reporters objections will have to be in soon and they will then all get a shot at appeal asap after Walton rules(they had to handle scheduling on this around the appellate break IIRC).
4. CIA is reviewing for the pdb summaries and will be submitting them in two parts to Libby, with objection dates set for each submission – but those are off a few months.
So – along with his other cases in Chicago and dealing with all the fallout from these recent filings, that’s what’s next for the Prosecutor.

Could you spell it out? The material apparently was declassified (if we can trust Scott McClellan) on 7/18/03. And Libby shared this info on what date? I expect that the date was prior to 7/18/03, so Libby was revealing classified information, right? Just to make it excruciatingly clear.

zennurse at 128

But my point is that if, and I emphasize if, the President has the authority to declassify something, had done so before Libby spoke to Miller as Libby contends, then, at the time Bush made his speach that whoever leaked classified information would be “taken care of”, he knew the leak was not illegal because he also knew he had declassified it. Why didn’t he just come clean then and save all the time and taxpayer money. My point is that even with this new declassification theory, it doesn’t really buy them much cover.

Mary, Mary, you are a gift to us, one of the ones I just mentioned. You, lhp, immantenize and Christy along with others I’m surely forgetting have helped us very much. Stephen Parrish, CPA (IANAL), for me, also contibutes so much with his careful searches and links. Thanks Stephen.

TJ – No one is claiming (yet) that the President authorized the outing of a CIA agent, “just†the release of bits and pieces from the classified NIE. As a matter of fact, Fitzgerald’s filing indicates that at least at one point in time, the President did not know about Libby’s involvement (which makes me question a bit the Truthout references to the President’s office being kept advised, but it’s all about timing and identity –if he knew Rove had talked, he might not have know Libby did too or when, etc.)
But as to some of the rest of what you said, I’m just nodding along with you.

Norske – thanks. You are awfully nice for a flamethrower – I kind of NEED to believe what you are saying, so I owe you. Padilla hit me very very hard and the GITMo cases haven’t made me feel much better. I amy not owe you like Matthews owes Delay, but still, I owe.

The Libby/Miller (NYT reporter) conversation was on 7/8, ten days before the formal declassification, per the transcript form the press conference above. So while it appears to be the case (per Abu Gonzales) that Bush can declassify anything he feels like, the question is, can he do it sort of extemporaneously, like in a conversation with Cheney as is alleged. As to why they didn’t come clean to eliminate the investigation, that’s the part that all the suspicion of a conspiracy about wilson is about, as well as the notion that this was leaked vs declassified to get out the word to a sympathetic reporter re: thier reasons for Iraq.

Mary, is that even close to right?

To further muddle the above, can he declassify without going through channels and getting “the stamp”? And if it was declassified on 7/8, why did McClellan say it was declassified on 7/18.

I have two thoughts after reading all the comments. The video referenced by Mark From Ireland brings home the reality of what our brave young men and women are dealing with in Iraq. After watching this video I was consumed by anger and sorrow.
My other though is that Libby is one of a handful of NeoCons who got us into this fucking mess in Iraq. I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for these evil people.
One other thing. I agree with the comment that Libby never imagined that his implication of Bush would become public. He thought his bullshit rationalizations would somehow wash with the Grand Jury…”I did it out of loyalty to my President.”

zennurse says: “Thanks Stephen.”
April 7th, 2006 at 5:42 pm

You’re welcome!

LeisureGuy says: “And Libby shared this info on what date? I expect that the date was prior to 7/18/03, so Libby was revealing classified information, right?”
April 7th, 2006 at 5:37 pm

Please look at zennurse’s post (# 128) and click on the link she provided.

LeisureGuy @ 5:37 pm – I’ll just say that it’s not clear to me when what was declassified. Portions of the NIE could have been declassified at any time, and according to the TPM Muckraker timeline, some were. If what McClellan was saying is that the entire document was declassified on July 18, 2003, that just means that the remaining information was declassified. I have yet to find a reference that states this absolutely.

The other complication is that Libby is claiming that a part of the NIE was declassified just prior to his leaking it to Miller, but that only he, the Pres. and Vice Pres. knew about that. This is, to put it mildly, a very irregular thing.

Hey BobbyG, Congrats. Good concise message. Its what is needed. Do let us know when you see your letter published. Mathews to Delay, “Bugman, I wish I could quit you.”

Jane, Kynandog, thanks for the great update.

Just read Scott’s gaggle from today with the assumption in mind that Cheney lied to Libby about Bush’s approval.

Interesting…

Scotty run over to Kinkos and get us one of them stamper things!

If Dough Boy Scotty keeps this up,his nose will be as long as a porn star’s dick.

I’m sorry I started this round of confusion, so I went to the link and found this info:

Date Bush told Chaney the info (whatever that amounts to) was declassified_____________.

Date Libby told Miller Plame was spy – July 8.

Date McClellen said info was declassified
at 7.18.05 Press Conference – July 18.
at 4.7.06 Press Conference – No Comment.

Date Bush should have come clean to avoid the investigation__________.

Can somebody help me out with this.

new thread: “leaking”

Zennurse, – yes, kind of.

Leaking the cherrypickings from the NIE, and outing Plame, are two different things, though. They are very strongly related, bc most all of it came about in relation to the unrest about the prewar intelligence and a huge chunk of that was generated by Wilson’s op ed piece and the prior Pincus articles that relied on Wilson as a source. Plus the general failure to find WMDs.

So the Administration was supposedly looking for a way to counter the negative public reaction and bolster that they “did too†have a good basis for the war. Enter the NIE, which had been prepared after the decision to go to war was already made and only at the demand of Dick Durbin. The agencies already knew which way the wind blew and the NIE was put together to support the President’s position, but even so it was forced to include, as reduced and minimized as they could make it (in alternative views sections) the input from State and others that did NOT support the aluminum tubes, Niger yellow cake, or active WMDs program allegations. Even so, those things were so buried that only a few of the very few Members of Congress that got to see the NIE paid attention to the dissenting info.

So here you are, as President and Co., with this nifty classified doc that says lots of Really Good Stuff for you, bc you kind of solicited it to make sure it did. It does have a few little things that aren’t so good, but what the heck – most Congress critters who saw them didn’t pay attention to them. What to do, what to do. The natives are getting restless, Pincus is acting like old-style WaPo reporters and everyone is grumbling. Plus, whether you fess up or not, some of your crew KNOWS that Wilson had made his trip and that the report wasn’t favorable on the yellow cake and that he is likely the source for Pincus. Then (ok – there are some things that happen before this “then†but for purposes of the NIE, this is the “thenâ€) Wilson writes his , “liar liar pants on fire†op ed.

Game on. The decision is made to selectively pass on the “good parts†of the NIE to a friendly reporter. Supposedly, from the filings and Libby, Cheney tells Libby to do it, Libby balks, Cheney then tells Libby that President has authorized and the inimitable Mr. Addington, I presume, makes it all better by saying, sure you can leak the NIE good parts to a reporter if the Pres says so leaving out the and do you want to see the really KEWL stuff you can do to her if she doesn’t print what you want ? – huh? – huh? – even more KEWL than the bear and the little girl in your book! *s*

Meanwhile(this is MO only) the Triple A team (I like baseball) back at the WH, espec. Hadley, are squirming in their seats with their hands in the air saying – can we declassify the whole NIE, can we? Yeah, there’s some little bad parts, but lots and lots of good parts and if we don’t declassify the NIE, uh, those Congress critters MIGHT investigate and SUBPEONA and we MIGHT have to hand it over anyway and maybe even hand over worse stuff or testify under oath about the worse stuff. PLEASE, let’s declassify the whole thing, ok?

According to Libby, against this backdrop he goes off to talk to Miller in early July and tells her about the “good stuff†that the President “declassified just for us, here, let me get a second straw†and somehow, the Plame stuff just “slips out†while he’s making small talk about war, WMDs and classified, ooops – Declassified info.

So, according to this scenario, if Libby and Cheney are truthy, the Pres knew about the leak of the NIE stuff, but not the leak of the Plame info or any plan to go after Wilson.

Uh huh. And it just so happens that Libby ends up lying about a whole bunch of stuff, under oath and not, to FBI agents and Fitzgerald as Fitzgerald is investigating who really did out Plame to Novak (and it comes out that oh yeah, Libby outed her to Miller too) .

Now I feel like a very lousy opthamologist. Better – or Worse?

TJ, only Fitz, Cheney and Bush know when they “declassified” the selected info.

Another line that’s missing is:
Date real NIE, with complete information about doubts re: WMD, aluminum tubes was released_____

I don’t know that date, but someone will.

I keep hearing that the information was declassified for the public good. Then they explain it was because the American public were being influenced by wrong information about pre-war intelligence and they needed to set the record straight. That explanation might have been all well and good in July 2003. But now we know the truth, and we also know that Bush and Cheney also knew the truth way back then too. It was Joe Wilson who told the truth. The McClellen explanation doesn’t serve any longer, but even today I continue to hear Bush supporters use this defense. It boggles the mind.
http://www.slcblues.blogspot.com

Better, for sure, you’re a great chronicler (love the part about the bear) and it works.

Libby is a worm and he’s dangling on a very sharp hook.

Thread upstairs, Mary please weigh in, I’m gobsmacked.

When Brooks started spewing his nonsense about ‘nobody outside of a few paying any attention to the Plame ‘issue’ I was ready to shout at the TV, ‘Don’t you just wish, you (expletive deleted)’ – but I scare my husband when I do things like that. I have noticed that when Brooks is lying he bobs up and down in his chair alot – oh yes – he was bobbing right along!

Thanks Mary

So is the Fitz plan one to force WH to come clean because of the political heat?

At trial on question of whether Plame a spy was/was not declassified before Libby told Miller.

Bush says _________.
Cheney says________.
Libby says yes it was.

There are really only 2 witnesses competent to testify at trial on this question aren’t there? (Libby can testify to what he was told, but not for the truth of the matter asserted).

What am I missing?

Mary
Know that I am EPU’d (was driving home While ya’ll talk w/o me, but I’m all caught up now)

Re: the next thing for Bustknuckles. I don’t think the Motion to Dismiss will succeed, the defnse Motion was thin, really thin. Basically they reply papers just accuse Fitz and Comey of perjury for trying to explain what their letters (announcing and clarifying the appointment) meant.

Re: the Rugby. No Mary, I don’t play any more. But during the rather more stressful prosecuting days, the agents and investigators I worked with used to cout the days between the end of the fall season and the start of thespring season b/c I was MUCH less fun to be around if I didn’t get to take out my pent up aggressions by tackling someone 2x a week in practice and for real on Saturday.

Ross: was the saturday afternoon reference to rugby day? When did you quit? I might have refereed you. I used to travel all over the place when I stared refereeing.

Sorry to piss into the wind here but I lost my optimism quite a while back.

Congress is out now for two weeks so in that time we will be into Iran and Fitz will be sidelined/eliminate/fired/silenced or whatever cause we are at WAR. The MSM is still at the beck and call of the WH and they will hound the congress into being supportive when they get back…fear, fear, fear. Gotta support the troops, blah, blah, blah. The Vichy Dems will silence any problem makers.

Get real folk. It is all about oil and maintaining capatilistic control and screwing of the world.

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2004/033004.asp

I just happened to find this just now, purely coincidental. Interesting, no?

Where’s the stamp? Yup, good question. Pointed out yesterday that section 1.6 of Bush’s EO Amendment allowed (180) days for a declassified item to comply with stamping requirement. Begs all kinds of questions.

– Why the EO Amendment?
– Was there any significance to the date of the EO Amendment itself? (Think cujo359 did a nice little three-item timeline on this — was you, cujo, wasn’t it?)
– Why (180) days?
– What happened exactly (180) days prior to Scotty’s pronouncement that the documents were declassified on 18-JUL-03?

Or was this just sloppy work and they figured the Iraqis would have been throwing flowers at troops by the time the 180th day came so that the question(s) would be moot and forgotten…?

Thanks Apple Canyon 2. . . lots of damage and destruction here, and it’s been a very long, bleak day here in middle Tennessee. I spent a good part of the afternoon sitting in a windowless conference room at the university where I teach playing Cranium (which I happend to have in my office) with two other faculty members and some prospective students. Kinda fun actually.

But much more to the point, when can we get the war crimes tribunal cranked up in the Hague? Seriously, what does it take?

I saw the bit of the presser that focused on this issue, and, at the end, I was yelling at the television: “Who decides what the ‘public interest’ is? Is it solely up to the president to decide this? Why doesn’t anybody ask this question?”

They’ll have another chance, of course. Anyone with an inside line to David Gregory, please pass this along.

loosey goosey mcain is a pain the ass and in my state at a rnc fundraiser right– could not get in; duh. he is barf. maverick, my ass.

No, well, we always want to share facts with the American people.

Dear god. Well, I guess you have to parse it carefully, like everything else that comes out of these peoples’ faces. They want to share facts, but they’re just abysmally, tragically bad at it. Right from their desperate desire to share the minutes of Cheney’s energy policy meetings right down to the present. God how they wanted to share all that stuff with us. Who knew that fighting tooth and nail through the federal courtts to avoid having to disclose it would result in the utterly unexpected outcome of it ending up not getting disclosed? Baffling. And that’s just one example of the myriad instances where they did everything they could to hide information and then, damned if the dratted stuff never got public no matter how much they wanted it to. It’s just wierd how that happens. Gotta chalk it up to bad luck or karma or something.

rubber hose (165) — which takes us to the (180) question…is that (180) days from the date Bush may have orally declassified something, or (180) days after they made it formal with the EO Amendment?

Looking more carefully at the EOA, the term calling out the 180 days is actually in Sec. 6.3, the very last paragraph immediately before Bush’s signature (he can’t say he didn’t see this):

Sec. 6.3. Effective Date. This order is effective immediately, except for section 1.6, which shall become effective 180 days from the date of this order.

Maybe there’s something else buried in Sec. 1.6 besides the marking of materials as “declassified”…but the 180 days must be key, regardless of the issue being addressed in Sec. 1.6.

Reading more closely, Bush also wrote his own permission slip with this EOA, noting Sec. 6.1, (l)(3), which basically says he is authorized to declassify anything:

(l) “Declassification authority” means:

(1) the official who authorized the original classification, if that official is still serving in the same position;

(2) the originators current successor in function;

(3) a supervisory official of either; or

(4) officials delegated declassification authority in writing by the agency head or the senior agency official.

I’m wondering if there was anything from Tenet or other official that qualified Sec. 6.1 (l)(4); did someone indicate in an email or handwritten note that certain information “would be worth sharing”…?

Might explain why there is no denial from the White House; Bush wrote his own permission slip, and he “understood” the information to be available for declassification.

And they truly thought this would all go away inside (180) days, too…?

As one commenter over at The American Prospect said today, “Using legitimate presidential powers (declassification) for illegitimate purposes (to make a political attack) is the very definition of abuse of power.

Hey, that was me. I said that here somewhere too, before I posted it over there. :)

While some legal experts say the President has the authority to declassify information at will, that doesn’t mean Bush actually declassified the information. For reasons of his own (say, to smear someone without leaving his fingerprints on the smear), Bush may have kept the information classified, but commanded that it be leaked. The apparent fact stated in Jane’s post that it was classified afterwards suggests this is what happened. That would make the disclosure illegal.

I wrote about it here: http://backseatdriving.blogspo…..pends.html

lhp–

(100% rugby digression – sorry all)

My playing days ended a long time ago.

My Dad, though, just finally stopped – he’s one of those really, really old boy boys.

James Bay was the club – Victoria BC, and there we didn’t have to stop between fall and spring (just played right through the rainy season).

Hey – here’s a weird thought – When he wasn’t busy punching opposing players at Yale wonder if Lancelot Link spent the rest of his time whining about the knock-on rule. After all, seems to me he’s been a working the knock-on pretty much his entire life (and that includes his Leaker-In-Chief shennanigans).

.

I know I’m late to the party here, but I have to comment. This article implies that anyone who looks at porn is a child molester and cannot be trusted with state secrets. This is just insane. Are you next going to suggest that someone who has consensual sex with another adult out of wedlock is a child molester and shouldn’t be given positions in government? I hate Bushco as much as anyone, but use some common sense, please. Don’t use some weak argument like that. Does anyone know if Time even had an internet porn policy at the time he was caught? It took many companies a long time to establish policies about online porn after internet access from the workplace became common. If Time did have a policy against it when he got caught, the most you can say is that the guy broke company policy. Unless he got caught looking at child porn, you certainly couldn’t conclude from that incident that he was a pedophile. Sure it was stupid because it was at work, but when did viewing porn become a crime in this country? That being said, I hope Brian Doyle gets put away for a while.

Grrr…my bad. Somehow my browser flipped out on me while I was cutting and pasting and I ended up putting this under the wrong post. Ctrl-Shift-Right Arrow doesn’t do what it normally does when editing here. My apologies.