
Continuing in our analysis of the Government’s Response of 4/5/06 (PDF), we turn to page 11 of the filing. In this section, Fitz points his analysis right back to the indictment itself — and reminds Team Libby that the four corners of the indictment are the important portion for discovery analysis.
The second paragraph on page 11 is guaranteed to give all the wingnuts fits, so I’m going to spend a little bit of time typing this in very slowly, so that even the most kool-aid imparied individual might understand: when Fitz says "…indeed, it is irrelevent whether Mr. Wilson’s wife actually did work at the CIA or actually did play a role in aranging the trip, or how State Department employees viewed the results of the Wilson trip," the only thing to which he is referring in that context is irrelevant to the particular charges in Libby’s indictment — namely perjury, obstruction and false statements. And he is correct — that information is irrelevant to the consideration as to whether or not Scooter Libby lied — under oath and/or to FBI agents — and blocked the further investigation of the case.
And let me type this especially slowly: Fitzgerald is not saying that whether or not Valerie Plame Wilson worked for the CIA or was a NOC is irrelevant to the ultimate question of IIPA or Espionage Act violations. This statement is a very narrow, very purposeful legal argument based upon Libby’s current indictment and charges therein — and nothing else.
Fitz continues the discussion with regard to what is and is not relevent to the charges in Libby’s current indictment contrasted with what has been requested by Team Libby — and points out repeatedly that they are not entitled to every piece of information that Fitzgerald’s team has in their ongoing investigation, but only such information as is material to defending Libby against his current charges.
Nor has the defendant established any connection between the documents defendant has demanded and any relevent testimony Mr. Rove or Mr. Hadley could provide. The trial in this case necessarily will focus on whether or not defendant committed perjury. While defendant may prefer to put the conduct of others on trial, he is not entitled to do so. Nor is defendant entitled to discovery so that he may examine witnesses at trial regarding their conduct and the conduct of others that is not germaine to the issue of whether defendant lied and obstructed justice. (pp. 15-16)
Ouch. It’s painful for Libby, but it is true: you do not get to re-write your own history as the actions that you wish you would have taken. Your conduct is viewed by the court and the jury as it was done at the time. And no amount of finger-pointing today changes the facts as they were and are. You don’t want to be faced with your own criminal behavior? Don’t commit a crime. (It sounds harsh, and I know with this Administration there are a whole lot of people who have been swept into a net without any charges whatsoever — but that’s not what I’m talking about here. Apples and oranges. If you lie under oath to a grand jury — repeatedly — and to FBI investigators, you get what you have coming to you. But then, I’ve never been asked to provide a firewall for my bosses at the highest echelon’s of government…nah, you still get what you have coming to you.)
On page 18, Fitz calls the Barbara Comstock public wingnut "attack Valerie" argument for what it is — a smokescreen meant to shift the public and the jury’s field of vision away from the alleged criminal activity of Libby — or, in the words of the response, "to provide an irrelevant distraction from the issues of the case." (See my commentary above on the CIA employment issue/perjury.)
At the bottom of page 18, there is an interesting moment wherein Fitz discusses Libby’s current indictment in terms of what was "in context the state of mind of defendant and others working in the Office of Vice President at the relevant time, nor explain why defendant was likely to have forgotten conversations about the topic in which he participated." What an intriguing choice of phrase "an others working in the Office of Vice President, isn’t it?
Fitzgerald goes on to point out that "the evidence will show" (which is a classic opening statement phrasing at trial, just fyi) that:
…the July 6, 2003, Op Ed by Mr. Wilson was viewed in the Office of Vice President as a direct attack on the credibility of the Vice President (and the President) on a matter of signal importance: the rationale for the war in Iraq. Defendant undertook vigorous efforts to rebut this attack during the week following July 7, 2003. (p. 18)
Two things as I read this: (1) Fitz is confident he has the goods to back this up and (2) wasn’t the use of the parenthetical, almost portraying it as an afterthought for Libby and the Veep, on (and the President) a very interesting choice here? Maybe I’m just tired and punchy and reading too much into this, but I think we see where a great deal of the focus is for Fitz in the repeated references to the Office of Vice President. And I wonder how much of this pointed focus came about as a result of Rove’s machinations and how much information he may have given over to throw Libby and Cheney and pals at the Veep under the bus? Interesting, no?
What I read overall from page 18: "I’ve got you by the short hairs on this."
The final bit of analysis in this is coming up in Part III.



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OT, but firedoglake is mentioned as one of the prominent liberal blogs in a review of Kos’s Crashing the Gate in this week’s issue of the New York Review of Books (the review is quite positive, btw). Don’t have a link for it handy, but thought you might be interested to know, especially as it might generate some new traffic for you guys.
(and the President)
hmmmmm.
(and the President) makes it seem like an afterthought – perhaps to the Vice-President’s Office too?
hi Christy you have a viciously racist troll in dave neiwerts post starting at comment 128. please trex it.
markfromireland
REDD:
Now that the legal machinations of the Libby trial are beginning to bear political fruit …
What’s next? In whose court is the ball? There was a ruling the other day that appeared to go against Fitz, right? Forcing him to release more than he wanted? Is that coming soon, or is THIS “that”? And in general, can you give us a preview of coming legal attractions?
And thanks again – as always – for your tireless crusade to help the masses follow the byzantine twists and turns of this case.
NY Review of Books Link:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18910
Is this a typo? Or else what does “intended ” mean?
While defendant may prefer to put the conduct of others on trial, he is not intended to do so
Bionic -
“entitled”
Another stunner Christy!
OT– Robert Fisk interviewed by Amy Goodman on Iraq, Palestine and our media. A few snippets:
Iraq:
Somebody wants a civil war in Iraq. I don’t think the Iraqis do. You know, we have this story again, and it’s a sort of the narrative that’s been laid down, that all the Sunnis are rushing around blowing up Shiite mosques and all the Shiites are burning down Sunni mosques. And that’s not the Sunnis and the Shiites I’ve met in Iraq.
You know, you are the occupying power. You have — and this is very much what Noam is saying — you have a duty, you have an absolute responsibility, even under the new U.N. Security Council resolution, to protect these people and to care about them. And the idea of protecting and caring about Iraqis simply wasn’t there, because we didn’t go to look after Iraqis. That was not the reason why we invaded Iraq. And why did we invade Iraq? Well, if the national export was asparagus, as I’ve said before, I don’t think the 82nd Airborne would be in Mosul.
On Hamas:
You know, at some point, we’re all going to have to face up to the fact that if people do have a genuinely democratic election, we’ve got to talk to the people they elect, not the people they elect if they’re the people we want them to elect. And that’s the big problem for us in the Middle East at the moment.
On US media:
ROBERT FISK: I try not to see them, and I try not to read the New York Times, and I definitely will not be reading the L.A. Times anymore. You have a major problem in the United States, in that your journalists don’t challenge authority. They will not, will not, will not challenge authority, unless they think authority is lying on the ground. Then they’ll have a timid kick at it, which we’re now seeing with the Scooter Libby affair. But by and large –
AMY GOODMAN: And with Katrina, as well.
ROBERT FISK: And with Katrina, yes. But by and large, you only have to look at a presidential press conference: “Mr. President! Mr. President!†“Yes, Amy.†“Yes, Bob.†“Yes, John.†That’s how the relationship — osmotic, parasitic, fearful. To be questioning of power will suggest that you are unpatriotic and thus potentially subversive.
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…../07/144219
Bionic #7:
I read that as probably being ‘entitled’ to match the next sentence (”Nor is…”).
angie, just a request:
The posts are more readable if you separate paragraphs with a space.
Maybe it’s me, but crowded blocks of text are tough for me to dive in to.
ok, Pach– I was trying to save room ;) I actually went thru to remove the spaces. sorry.
Christy, I’m only partway through the article, but found a typo. The phrase “as to whether or no Scooter Libby lied” should probably read “as to whether or not Scooter Libby lied”
markfromireland,
Is the same troll still poisoning that thread? It didn’t seem to appreciate me following through and digging up some direct quotes it made from a thread on their disgusting site ripping and ridiculing Jane, Redd, and FDL. They were bragging about trying to shut down and fuck up this site. Mwahahaaaa, in their twisted racist dreams.
To be questioning of power will suggest that you are unpatriotic and thus potentially subversive.
Put me on that list.
Weaseling pukes need to take a page out of Helen Thomas’ playbook.I watched part of Scotty “spinborg”s Hairball moments this morning.I have to agree with whoever said that reporters need to quit showing up and just send some stenographers.
bionic at #7 — it’s a typo. It was supposed to be “entitled.” Thanks for the heads up — too much brain overload today, I’m afraid.
Shez,
Iwas reading some of that thread,Had to wash my hands after I left. You did a hell of a smack down there pal.
Mark — I’ll take a peek. Have been busy writing this morning. Thought that thread had been taken care of — guess the idiot decided to stick around and continue being an idiot.
As a lawyer who has read Fitz’s response, I agree that it shows a real craftsman at work. The further you get into the paper, the more interesting it gets. For example, on page 26, we learn
and
Most of the remainder of the brief lays out in some detail at least part of the prosecution’s theory of the case–particularly regarding Libby’s motive to lie to the FBI and to the grand jury. That reinforces that the issue in the current indictment is the lying, not any conspiracies or disclosures of classified information.
The final bit is a bit puzzling to me, but then I have never been a prosecutor. It concerns whether other executive agencies are aligned with the prosecution. Now, I always thought the rule was that the government was the government–particularly for Brady purposes, but here Fitz alludes to some learning that various branches of the government may or may not be considered close to or identified with the prosecution. That it seems may be of importance in determining the government’s discovery obligations.
In particular, Fitz asks the judge to reconsider whether the OVP is aligned with the prosecution and, in any event, to hold that no other agency is so aligned. The request to reconsider seems a rather bold move–judges typically don’t like to reverse themselves, especially not based on arguments that have been or could have been made before. The fact that Fitz thinks it important enough to request reconsideration of the finding, but without a reversal of any previous discovery order, also suggests that there could be further trouble ahead. Possibly he could be concerned about Cheney’s undermining the prosecution by withholding documents.
We heard in today’s gaggle that Libby was recently seen in the White House Mess–maybe Fitz needs to get an affidavit in on that ….
Thanks Christy – his site is worth noting its …. well don’t go there unless you actually enjoy being so enraged that you want to throw things.
markfromireland,
Just the few quotes I saw was enough for me.
markfromireland @ 11:27 am (#4) – I’m inclined to ask that as long as they aren’t just harassing other commenters or trying to disrupt the site that the comments be allowed to stay. I think they were rebutted pretty well, and I think it’s better to expose these clowns for what they are than to try to sweep them under the rug.
The problem is that these guys can, like us, carve out their own little part of the Internet and swap nonsense among themselves. Showing them that just typing a bunch of nonsense and asserting that it’s all true isn’t going to work is the best way to show others that they’re just hot air.
After all of these years, why hasn’t anyone been so much as charged with the “crime” of revealing the identity of federal bureaucrat Valerie Plame? No evidence? No crime?
Christy, good article. Especially enjoyed this bit of snark:
Thanks for reading and analyzing all this legal stuff so I don’t have to.
Our gracious hosts need a little Troll-Be-Gone graphic — an icon that can replace a troll post. A simple trex-o-matic thingy . . .
=====
(2) wasn’t the use of the parenthetical, almost portraying it as an afterthought for Libby and the Veep, on (and the President) a very interesting choice here? Maybe I’m just tired and punchy and reading too much into this, but I think we see where a great deal of the focus is for Fitz in the repeated references to the Office of Vice President. And I wonder how much of this pointed focus came about as a result of Rove’s machinations and how much information he may have given over to throw Libby and Cheney and pals at the Veep under the bus?
Christy – or is Fitz simply working his way up the ladder? You know – nail the Vice President’s nuts to the wall so that he flips on the guy above him on the ladder? Isn’t that standard investigation strategy? Isn’t it considered overreaching to try to skip over people while going up the ladder?
Christy,
I share your admiration for team Fitz. Lovely, incisive draftsmanship and a rock-solid bullshit detector.
Thank God he’s on the case.
I so appreciate your work on this; Koufax clearly and richly deserved. Thank you.
OfT: “White House declines to deny leak claim”
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..r=homepage
Thanks Christy for the as per usual great coverage. IMO your “translations” of these filings are riveting, must read now right now. The extra pay-off is to read/watch the corporate media to see how close they are to you, Jane, emptywheel, and others, the gold standards, for RELIABLE, coverage.
I hope the corporate media picks up on your stuff on declassification.
Based on the comments about Snottie’s latest WH press bluffing, it sounds as though Snottie DOES comment on the ongoing CIA leak investigation, everytime he wants to slander a Democrat. Then when he receives a question he doesn’t want to answer, he reverses himself and hides behind, “our policy is not to comment on an ongoing investigation” that he just contradicted.
Troll Tom #23 -
Fitz already addressed that, and you know it. Get lost.
Per db at Digby’s place:
“Fitz makes it clear in his brief that he has a lot of info about other ’subjects’ with knowledge of “what could be characterized as” a plan to discredit, punish or seek revenge against Joe Wilson. Fitz tacitly offers unnecessary disclosure of this info as one reason for the court to deny Scooter’s for broad additional discovery unrelated to the perjury charge. I certainly read that as suggesting that he already has the goods on at least Cheney and possibly Bush, or at least enough to show they knew and authorized what was going on to trash wilson/plame.
Their wall has been breached. It’s at risk of collapsing altogether now. Fitz could do that, if forced to, it sounds.”
I expect the endgame is being debated as we speak. Fitz has put everybody on notice that he has the goods and is giving the cabal the opportunity to work cooperatively, if they choose, to bring it to conclusion. By cooperatively, I mean the opportunity to fall on their swords. The cabal is now gaming their individual and collective decision. The alternative option is directing Abu to purge Fitz. This is tantamount to going nuclear and unfortunatlely, shows where Tricky Dick, when it came down to it, was actually reasonable and sane. I fear this lot will not do what’s best for the country, as ultimately, Nixon did by resigning.
Also, I even hate to put words to this, but a small part of me wonders about the chances of Bush developing a bunker mentality much like Berlin in ‘45. It appears that the only person who can play Baker today is Bush 41. What effect will this, his Dad of all people, playing Baker, have on him? Will he crumble or take us all down with him? Part of me wishes we were dealing with Nixon’s mere paranoia and criminal obstinance today rather than Bush’s pathological insanity.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040706B.shtml
Did Bush Lie to Fitzgerald?
By Robert Parry
Consortium News
Friday 07 April 2006
Lewis Libby’s testimony identifying George W. Bush as the top official who authorized the leaking of intelligence about Iraq’s alleged nuclear weapons program raises two key questions: What did the President tell the special prosecutor about this issue in 2004 and what is Bush’s legal status in the federal criminal probe?
Bush’s legal danger came into clearer focus with the release of a court document citing testimony from Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff who claimed that Bush approved the selective release of intelligence in July 2003 to counter growing complaints that Bush had hyped evidence on Iraq’s pursuit of enriched uranium.
(snip)
Thanks again for the insights, Christy.
It is encouraging to see this from Fitz:
“…the July 6, 2003, Op Ed by Mr. Wilson was viewed in the Office of Vice President as a direct attack on the credibility of the Vice President (and the President) on a matter of signal importance: the rationale for the war in Iraq.”
The reference to “credibility” implies that Fitz has concluded (has evidence to show that)the WH was not so much worried about whether the claim about Niger uranium was true or not. Instead, Cheney/Libby et al were fearful of the implication in Wilson’s NYT opinion that “the Vice President (and the President)” had lied about this and other claims. Getting the intelligence wrong was bad enough, but knowing you had wrong intelligence and lying about it to justify war was the more damaging charge they wanted to conceal, as Murry Waas’ articles suggest. I think the stories about the “authorized leaks” in the trad press still haven’t focused on this but are still stuck on whether the NIE was or was not appropriately leaked (that is, was it properly declassified). The story their missing is that the selective declassifications/leaking to Judy Miller were done to continue to conceal the fact that the WH knew they had lied.
I agree with BobbyG in 29.
Was Fisk hinting that the US is provoking a civil war? That is my take on current events, as well.
JC at 28: IIRC, Scotty’s willingness to talk about the Fitz filing was a direct response to Helen Thomas, who raised the issue of whether the WH knew it was lying about intelligence.
If the WH isn’t faced with direct/indirect suggestions of the Pres lying the country into war, Scotty says, “can’t talk about the investigation.”
When the WH faces charges/questions suggesting they lied getting into the war, then all bets are off and Scotty is perfectly willing to quote Fitz if it helps him.
Bustednuckles at 15–
Stenographers, yes, but I have a better idea: high school students. Show them how accountability and freedom of the press does, or does not, work. Let them copy the Scottmeister’s canned baloney–they’ll be thrilled, he’ll look even more like an ass (dictating to fifty h.s. kids holding out their mini-DATs), and the other reporters will be free to find ways to regain their self respect. Not to mention the fact that the kids’ questions will be every bit as probing (and more) than the current lot’s–and their response to Scottie’s b.s. a ton more entertaining. Maybe h.s. newspapers can run contests each year to win the press pass of NYT, WaPo, etc. It’s a win-win-win!
Marky, I think so… not all that crazy a thought. Been wondering about that for a long while.
Also–and OT, yeah, but shattering nonetheless:
Am I the only one freaked out by the fact that Atrios is an anagram of Sirota?
“divide et imperium” worked for the Romans and was perfected by the Brits. “We just can’t up and leave that country or those savages will kill each other.” seems to be Condi’s current mantra.
How fortuitous for Bush that the attorney who accompanied him in the Oval Office interview with Patick Fitzgerald, James Sharp, specializes in RICO Act, International Transactions, Grand Jury Proceedings, Criminal Fraud, Federal, and White Collar Crimes. Sounds like a good lawyer for a Michael Corleone. Or rather, more like Fredo, whose screw-ups threaten to take down the whole enterprise.
.
MrWonderful 38 –
Short answer — yes, you are the only one . . .
civil war will keep the Shiites from gaining control, and keep the question of permanent bases from being discussed. The idea would be that picking up the pieces after a civil war is preferable to letting the Shiites control Iraq.
Mmmm, Espionage Act violations. I like the sound of that.
Not sure if it has been noted, but NY review of books has a review of Crashing the Gates. It also mentions FDL. Very good write up of blogs in general.
yeah, George W Bush, try pardoning some of your employees charged with espionage! that’s so pre-9/11 …
Tom @ 11:57 am – Fitzgerald addressed this at the news conference where he announced the Libby indictments. He said that with all the lying and secrecy, he couldn’t find the evidence he needed to prove what was going on one way or another.
There. I knew that. You should, too, before you denigrate the importance of what’s going on.
FDL is ‘mentioned’ in the NYRB as the go-to place for Plamegate and Libby Filings…
John Casper #28
looks like the WH gaffing hooks landed a few ‘experts’ -
“not illegal, but odd”
linked text
funny how neither of them mention the selective nature of the material disclosed
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 12:04 pm (#31) – Interesting article. It’s starting to look like Bush may be impeached. This may not be his worst crime, but it’s right up there.
Bush’s argument makes no sense. If he needed to declassify material to make his case, why do it secretly? An official statement would have gotten more notice.
from the NYRB piece:
But a kind of proto-journalism is emerging, and becoming steadily more sophisticated. If you want to understand (albeit with plenty of spin) the ins and outs of Scooter Libby's defense in the Plamegate trial, for instance, the place to go is Firedoglake.From the WP new article
“On July 18, 2003, McClellan said that the information had been declassified that day. “It was officially declassified today,” he told reporters in a briefing in Dallas, Texas. At the White House on Friday, McClellan interpreted his own remarks to mean that the information had been officially released to the public.
The date could be significant because Libby discussed the information with a reporter 10 days earlier, on July 8 of that year.”
Maybe it wasn’t declassified when Libby leaked it, after all.
NYRB – I got your spin right here
Re: Tom @ 23:
I think that mmmmmaybe it has something to do with the individuals who testified about leaking her identity… committed perjury and obstructed justice.
I mean, if they had told the truth to the grand jury, we’d have enough evidence to indict people for the crime, yes? But instead, they threw sand in the eyes of justice. So we have to prosecute for the perjury and obstruction first.
See how easy it is?
Greg Palast wrote a column recently about chaos in Iraq (civil war, blown up piplelines) being one of the administrations goals in order to reduce Iraqi exports, shrink world supply, drive up the price, benefit the oil barons and OPEC. One of his sources is Robert Ebel (former CIA oil analyst).
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0603/S00293.htm
Reducing oil flow now could be a strategy to get past Peak Oil
If the admin was trying to end the civil war they would be doing something palpable (other than trying to rid the elected leader of his job), instead of leaving it to the commanders on the ground and Khalilzad. Although I don’t agree with Kerry about everything he said in his interview yesterday on CNN, this struck me:
KERRY: But there’s been almost no legitimate, major diplomatic effort to get them to do it over the last months. You know, a quick visit of the secretary of state, with all due respect, is not real sustained and deeply engaged diplomacy. You remember Henry Kissinger and shuttle diplomacy. You remember Jim Baker and his amazing Herculean efforts to piece together a legitimate coalition.
Where is that kind of engagement by the president and highest officials to bring the Iraqi …
BLITZER: They do have the U.S. ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, he’s working tirelessly to try to do that.
KERRY: But an ambassador is not. I have great respect for Ambassador Khalilzad. He is very good. I’ve visited with him there. He’s doing his utmost, but it takes more than an ambassador in Baghdad to make this happen. It takes a president, a vice president, secretary of state, working with the surrounding neighbors, working with the Arab League, working with the United Nations. That’s why I’ve suggested you must have a Dayton Accords-like conference that brings people together in order to put that diplomacy on the table.
Shez yes and it’s got a little hatchling trollette or two with it now.
I’m back, after a few months off to deal with life issues. Did I miss anything? Psyche.
So, if I am hearing Scottie McMuffin right, it would have been perfectly cool for, say, Harry S Truman,to spontaneously declassify the Manhattan project and its intended use because “there are a lot of misconceptions out there that we don’t have the will or the way to win this war with the Japanese.â€
And if Lincoln decided to let the media know about Grant’s batttleplan? Probably a bad idea, but no real consequences. “The public needed to know that we have smart generals after all,†he might have said, according to Scottie.
His arguable rights and his inarguable responsibilities ought not to be confused here. It is grossly irresponsible, if not illegal, to ignore all processes in place, mislead the public about what you have done and then have the audacity to claim heaven’s side of the argument. He thinks can leak or take a leak right in front of us without anybody noticing how it all stinks. He is, again, wrong.
Welcome back froggermarch! (EPU’d in prior thread). Nah, not much happenin’ here. A few things:
Libby says the Pres leaks.
Iraq’s a mess.
Fitz says Libby still a liar, even if Pres leaks.
Press thinks the Pres’ leaking is interesting.
Scotty thinks we shouldn’t talks about that.
Iraq’s a mess.
Condi says Rummy made mistakes; Rummy says Condi doesn’t understand war.
Congress thinks okay for Pres to ignore Constitution.
Delay couldn’t delay retirement.
K Street still there.
Iraq’s a mess.
Repub. Congress thinks, “ain’t no wall high enough, ain’t no meanness low enough, to keep those Mexicans away.”
Hundreds of thousands disagree.
Congress has an overflow of rubber stamps (”Video at 11″).
Oh, and Iraq’s a mess, but can we talk about Iran?
great post scarecrow– brilliant!
#50, Marky “Bush’s argument makes no sense. If he needed to declassify material to make his case, why do it secretly? An official statement would have gotten more notice”
It makes all the sense in the world if you have already set up channels in the media to selective leak information to sell your war. Why wouldn’t you use the same channels again? Leak the info, then point to the info in the paper which people assume (wrongly) is independently confirmed to buttress your case. ‘Look even the NY times and the WP say it is true.’ Then you can play dumb – when all along, the info came from you.
The WH were waiting for the pool reporters to bring it up. “Scottie, what do you make of the NY Times report that Wilson was sent to Niger by his CIA wife? Do you think that damages his credibility? What about the NIE report that counters his claims?”
cbl @ 12:23 pm (#48) – The other thing that I find interesting is that no one mentions that this sort of selective declassification smacks for the purposes of political gain also smacks of illegality. Perhaps they think it’s irrelevant, since it’s usually tough to prove someone’s motivation, but here’s the part of the EO that covers this subject:
I’m interested to hear from you lawyers – why isn’t this relevant, given that the embarassing information is probably no less sensitive than the non-embarassing parts? Or am I missing something?
Tom says:
April 7th, 2006 at 11:57 am
After all of these years, why hasn’t anyone been so much as charged with the “crime†of revealing the identity of federal bureaucrat Valerie Plame? No evidence? No crime?
After all these years, why hasn’t President Bush come clean and saved us all this trouble?
Why cover up a non-crime? Why lie about something that’s completely kosher?
proto-journalism?
That’s funny. What are these things they call truth and objectivity? Back to the future.
anon 62, Sure I know the alley-oop play. I’d love to see Bush give just the explanation you did.
I thought it was Fired O’Glake(?)
tee hee
christy, i don’t say it very often, but truly i want you to know how much i appreciate you spelling it out so that even a simpleton as myself can enjoy this saga to its fullest
Stephen Parrish, CPA (31)-
Well now, that is a very interesting point that I hadn’t considered. Looks like we’re back to the “what did the President know and when did he know it?” question.
Or, to put it another way, have Libby and Cheney thrown Bush under the bus?
Several months ago, on these very threads, a commenter (”me” or “me to me”, I think) exhorted us to have faith in Fitz, that his prosecuation of Ill. Gov. Ryan had been a thing of beauty, and that the Plame investigation would be the same.
It appears that prediction was and is right on.
So, Tom, be patient, Bush, Cheney, Rove, and Libby will all get what they deserve.
Hmmm, “faith in Fitz” has a nice ring to it, don’t you agree, Tom?
Feingold needs to add a clause to the censure motion asking Bush to repay the cost of the Plame investigation.
#66, (I know you know, marky. I just wanted to reiterate how outrageous it was. We went to war, man. We went to WAR because of it. I can’t even get my head around it. )
Heh, that use of the parenthetical can have so many backhanded meanings. The first one that popped into my mind was something along the lines of:
Cheney is running the country, and it is his credibility that is being attacked…(oops better put that figurehead Bush in here also)
OT: Seems like the Wapo might give both sides to the issue. Supposedly going to hire liberal and conservative bloggers.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0407.html
“his prosecuation of Ill. Gov. Ryan had been a thing of beauty, and that the Plame investigation would be the same.”
Ouch, man. Let’s wait till the jury comes back for Ryan. They almost had a mistrail. And Fitz didn’t try (or start) that case, Asst Atty. Patrick Collins did.
Thanks for the update, scarecrow. I see what Dorothy meant when she said she’d miss you the most.
Iraq is still a mess, eh? No prosecution for the President on the NSA spy deal? Congress hasn’t done much?
Wow. Who’d a thunk?
The DeLay thing is sweet, though. That’s something to get me back on the lilly pad and croakin’.
Scarecrow is correct. What is the motive for the smearing, releasing classified information, and Libby’s lies. Actually it is quite clear but so far corporate media is fearful of spelling it out, and I’m not sure Christy or Jane have picked it up, yet. To repeat an epued post:
The President wanted a war and sold it to the American people based on the imminent threat of nuclear attack from Saddam Hussein as proven by the purchase of African Uranium and Aluminum Tubes to purify the Uranium. Except the President was well aware that the State Department, parts of the CIA and the Energy Department all had serious reservations about both justifications.
In the Spring of 2003, after the invasion, when no weapons of mass destruction were being found; Ambassador Joe Wilson inconveniently pointed out that one leg of the justification for invasion was bogus. Karl Rove and the Iraq Group, at the Presidents direction, went into high gear and successfully leaked, hid and smeared the fact the President knew that the justifications for the Iraq Invasion were false until years after the successful 2004 reelection.
Splendid as always! Thanks again.
Another small but oft-repeated typo: “relevent” should be “relevant”.
anon, even at this late date, if Bush would just straight up say “I went to great lengths to hide certain facts from the public because in my considered opinion we just had to fight this war. I’m doing it for the good of the country, and I’m sorry I can’t tell you everything.. I really would like to.” I would feel marginally better.
The FratBoy Churchill act really grates though.
I’m still interested in getting discussion about the relation between the Plame case and the Niger forgeries. This is repetition—but isn’t the lack of references to Niger the dog that didn’t bark? After all, Joe Wilson’s particular window into the manipulation of intel was connected solely with Niger.
marky, I will never feel marginally better, sad to say… not even if he admitted to everything– too many have died and he has ruined our reputation and broken our trust with the world.
Republican Rep. Ray Lahood (R-IL) has been one of the few conservative voices willing to speak out about President Bush’s leak of the October 2002 NIE. Find out why he’s pretty much on his own…
For the full story, see:
“GOP Cornered by Bush Leak.”
Cujo359 #63 – excellent point – related topic -=keep meaning to go over to Federalist Soc. site to see what contortions, I mean how they are framing Chimpy’s crap on this.
Froggermarch – was thinkin about you not two hours ago, wondering after you, Welcome Back !
We need all the Buckeyes we can get
anon @ 12:25 pm (#52) – If McClellan is correct, and that’s what the paperwork says, then yes, it might have been leaked as classified information. The problem is that you can declassify portions of a document without declassifying the whole thing. Then, it’s OK to talk about those declassified parts, just not the rest of it. What did McClellan mean by “declassified”?
A properly marked document will have markings for each section, graphic, or paragraph indicating the classification level of that particular bit. If it is marked (U), that means it’s unclassified and the information is OK to talk about without discussing need to know (I’ll just add that such information is usually considered “For official use only”, meaning you still shouldn’t be leaking it to the press). Anyway, without seeing the document in the state it was in on the day Libby leaked it, I think this is going to be difficult to prove one way or the other.
Jim S 76 —
You have written THE BEST macro-summary of why the BushCo Gangsters wove their traitorous webs of deceit in 2003 — bravo!!!
I wonder if just the liberal blogger will allow comments…
markfromireland 4
The amazing thing about that troll is how he serves as an excellent series of footnotes to Dave’s post. Dave could go back in, insert the links and voila!
BTW – I did a brief dumpster dive myself into the stink it came from and noticed that they like to link to Michelle Malkin to support their “points.” Oh the irony!
“I have a dream”…
President Russell Feingold
Attorney General Patrick Fitzgerald
Christy,you are a pure joy and pleasure to read
Thank You!
hmm.. just went over to ben D.’s WhiteSheets site, and nothing on Plame… all immigration.
Jim S – You probably also recall in his step-down announcement from the CIA on July 11th 2003, George Tenet taking the fall for the bogus Niger documents: “Although the documents related to the alleged Niger-Iraqi uranium deal had not yet been determined to be forgeries(but they sure as hell were as of July 11 2003), officials who were reviewing the draft remarks on uranium raised several concerns about the fragmentary nature of the intelligence with National Security Council colleagues…”
But unbelievably, on Sept. 14th 2003 on Meet the Press, Dick Cheney AGAIN invokes the completely debunked bullshit that was the Niger forgeries to defend the case made to invade Iraq:
“I guess the intriguing thing, Tim, on the whole thing, this question of whether or not the Iraqis were trying to acquire uranium in Africa. In the British report, this week, the Committee of the British Parliament, which just spent 90 days investigating all of this, revalidated their British claim that Saddam was, in fact, trying to acquire uranium in Africa. What was in the State of the Union speech and what was in the original British White papers. So there may be difference of opinion there.”
They will lie and keep lying about their lying until their power is gone.
#73 – Seems like the Wapo might give both sides to the issue. Supposedly going to hire liberal and conservative bloggers. So who gets the liberal side of things — Bob shrum?
muzzy, note that Cheney did not refer to Niger.
Did I hear what I think I just heard?
Snotty is trying to make distinctions between different kinds of leaks???
I can’t believe my ears. They are truly lost.
How about David Neiwert for lib blogger? There’s no one more careful with his facts. I know his posts would make heads explode.. plus, i’m sure he would appreciate the income.
FireDogLake
kicking ass and listing the names
that pardon ain’t lookin so good scooter
angie — You’re right. It’s impossible not to feel sad about the past; but it’s also okay to feel better about the future, once the horror ends, and glad about the rule you played in ending it.
Unbelievably, this is still sitting on the WH web site. Oct 7 2003 Press conference with Bush in the Cabinet Room flanked by Powell and Wolfowitz. Key parts:
I love it: “I have no idea whether we’ll find out who the leaker is – partially because, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job protecting the leakers.” We, huh? “your profession” hint, hint, wink, hint.
They will lie and keep lying about their lying until their power is gone.
You are being way to optimistic — strip them of all thieir power, and they will still lie; bury them in a concrete crypt, and their lies will reverberate throught the ages, until the Earth is swallowed by the Sun.
=====
“role” not “rule”
Marky (@12:47),
You are so right but the corruption, evil, terror and jest overall stink risng increasingly over the last 6 years makes it hard to concentrate on anything for very long. This is why the obstruction and lying charges are so important, in order to get to the treason behind the Niger foreries Fitz’s got ta sqeeze a plea outta a couple of ‘em (and he’s in a race against the clock for further prosecutions). But I’m with you, I’d like ta see some a the heavy hitter regulars on fdl start an ongoin’ discussion of the Niger stuff and what we know now based on what’s surfaced recently in Plamegate. (Also, Josh at TPM was leadin the pack on the Niger story but he’s been swamped by Abramoff and the NSA thing).
KEEP THE FAITH AND MAYBE THEY’LL ALL DIE FROM AN OVERDOSE OF THE TRUTH!!
#90 GrandmaJ:
Probably a Dempug. I doubt there is much chance a true progressive will get the call. Wonder if this could be an action call for us FDL’rs to help nominate a worthy true liberal for the spot?
I meant to include a link. Here it is.
And they are playing segments of old Bush pressers contrasting it with the one with Scottie today on NPR right now! Going on about “bad leaks” and “good leaks.” Talk about newspeak.
Thanks, scarecrow. An impeachment, followed by indictment, followed by a Nuremberg type tribunal could go a long way toward healing some of our tattered reputation.
Christy, I too “get” the distinction between the underlying crime and “Libby’s lying”. Two different things, two different crimes. Fitz seems to be running a smart strategy….let’s keep everything focused on Libby’s lies, and blow off the rest. (at least, as to this trial). Now, question….do prosecutors have any type of rights to discover documents or stuff from the defense?
Also, 31: that’s the same question I’ve been asking since yesterday. What DID the pres. & VP tell Fitz during interview about this NIE document? (all we can do is speculate since the interview is confidential)
Finally, I’m still left with my question from long ago….just WHY did Libby lie so blatantly? I’m quite convinced he DID lie on multiple occasions…but lie?? It might be something as simple as a gamble he took…that Fitz would never manage to force the journalists to testify. In which case, it sucks to throw craps on the come-out roll! Ghostman
new thread – TL3
mc says:
April 7th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
The commenter’s original handle/screen name was Me, subsequently changed to Me3.
When Bush made that weak-assed statement on finding the leaker and not tolerating leaks within the WH, did anyone outside of the kool-aid drenched halls of wingnutistan honestly believe that he didn’t know? David Corn had it figured out a long time ago when he came up with the title of his book.
This administration hasn’t been honest about anything. They are a cancer on our democracy and I believe that the radiation treatment is under way. Finally.
Jim S.
Be assured, Jane and Chrisy get that and have written about it in detail, repeatedly.
Expert analysis posts like this one add layers to that narative, while building on it.
Cheers!
Sorry, I’m sure I’m OT, but NPR All Things is doing a long piece on the leak and including clips from judyjudyjudy and the Chimp and Snotty, demonstrating all the nasty little lies.
Quoting Reid- only pres can answer this, not a spokesman
David Brooks and David Corn (OMG)-
Brooks- this is hypocrisy, Dems like leaks of NSA
David Corn-there are good leaks and bad leaks, makes the whistleblower point
“selective leak: “cherry-picked intel for JUdy who liked them” Could have declassified the NIE before the war.
Brooks= playing politics with lead up to war
Corn-Scooter handed me the NIE when released(me,me,me,me), scary document, parts released
Brooks- pres didn’t read whole doc
Overall, Bad bad bush
Cujo359 says:
April 7th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
Did you see a comparable section in that executive order that dealt with prohibited declassifications of classified information?
Norske–eriposte over at The Left Coaster is the reigning expert on Niger stuff.
This is completely beside the point and not intended as criticism, as I think that the work your’e doing is stellar and terribly important, but please, relevant is spelled with an “a”. I’m not a dick, just giving a heads up on something for posterity…
zennurse @ 1:04 pm – Possibly. According to this WaPo story that was released a half hour ago, he said some very puzzling things.
This might in some sense be true, but to use such a statement to justify how they treated this information is bizarre, to say the least. Declassifying information should make it widely available within the government, and it appears that in this case it was not. In fact, it seems to have been declassified ad hoc for the purpose of leaking it to a newspaper. And, as commenter Thomas C said earlier, you don’t just get to declassify and then reclassify information.
Not to mention that the paragraph I quoted earlier from the EO (in #63) states that classification for the purpose of covering up illegal activity or incompetence, preventing embarassment, or concealing inefficiency is illegal.
Looks like “ongoing investigation” is the new codeword for “we don’t want to talk about this”.
Like I said, even if you accept this as true, that the President has this power, this stinks anyway. I guess this means that they’re now in the “let’s just keep the President from being impeached” phase of this disaster.
…and you’re doing the work here…
New thread! Part THREE
As I posted yesterday (updated) -
The moral core of American Constitutional government is one explicitly disavowing an Ends-Justify-the-Means ethos. Our Constitution in fact clearly embodies the opposite cardinal value, i.e., that good ends cannot, in the aggregate, accrue from bad means, hence the Framers’ focus on assiduous due process and checks-and-balances processes for the restraint of the reckless exercise of power. Sadly (and dangerously), we are now governed by a group of men for whom They-Know-Better Ends-Justify-the-Means thinking drives their every action, men who would condescendingly pat us on our heads to keep reminding us that their Noble End of “Protecting the American People†warrants and justifies an unlimited range of extraconstitutional authority, including authority for:
- secret warrantless spying on whomever they deem necessary (and, of course, the details simply must be kept classified for The Protection of the American People. You’ll Just Have to Trust Us.);
- torture, abuse, and indefinite detention of anyone they deem a terror suspect (notwithstanding counterproductive outrages such as the ~90% false positive rate at Abu);
- selective leaking of the nation’s most closely held intelligence secrets when convenient, while at the same time, of course, railing angrily against (and hunting down) others who leak inconvenient secrets the Administration wants kept under wraps;
- selectively disavowing by executive fiat inconvenient provisions of signed legislation;
- selectively disavowing the necessity of adhering to inconvenient international laws, conventions, and treaties (all while lecturing other nations about their responsibility to observe the rule of law as expressed through democratic process and structure).
Nothing good can, nothing good will ever come of this self-defeating Messianic Executive Delusion. These people must be reined in and brought to account. Nothing less than the survival of our free nation is at stake. The ends do not justify these means. Neither in a moral nor in a utilitarian sense. These men have not and will not make us “safer.†What they are doing is nothing more than horribly soiling the American ideal before the eyes of the world, begetting us increasing numbers of new enemies around the world in the bargain.
Let us not succumb to endless red herring nit-picking over definition-of-IS’ness irrelevancies regarding Presidential de-classification authority. Stipulate that he has such power. He could simply have held a presser and released redacted portions of it the nation, were it truly that vital that we know certain assertions contained therein (the most fatuous proffer of the decade, I swear). That he did not speaks multiple volumes. I may have been born at night, but it wasn’t last night.
This man swore an Oath to preserve and defend our Constitution, not to mock it at every turn by ignoring its very moral basis in pursuit of his expedient political ends. Concomitant with his authority as Chief Executive is the obligation to use it wisely and ethically within the confines of our Constitution — a document regarding which he is not the sole and final arbiter (unless we continue to permit him to act in such a manner).
I have had quite enough of this shit. It is beyond time to take these criminals down and take back our government and reclaim our Constitutional moral heritage.
Really pissed right now.
Stephen Parrish 105-
Thanks.
Credit where credit is due.
Anon 74-
I’m not up on the details of the Ryan case, I’m just operating from (faulty) memory.
I think the maladministration is seriously underestimating the number of people in this country who have run into classified stuff at one or another time, for whatever reason. If we-the-people can understand that Leaks Are Bad and declassifying purely for political reasons is a no-no, surely the maladministration should understand it … unless they’re really as clueless as they appear to be this week.
I notice that far too many of the MSM reports have it as ‘Libby said that Bush said it was OK’, rather than the correct ‘Libby said that Cheney said that Bush said …’. I strongly suspect that Shrub didn’t have a clue before it hit the news; the whole thing was run out of OVP.
Hi froggermarch! Nice to see you at long last.
As to the misspelling of ‘relevant’, it’s the cut and paste version from the PDF file, not Christy doing it.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 1:17 pm (#109) – No, I didn’t. To me, the act of only declassifying the parts of a document that aren’t embarrassing is tantamount to classifying the parts that are embarrassing, IOW, deliberately choosing not to declassify certain portions is, in itself, a form of classification. I’m used to thinking about things this way – information is supposed to be classified according to criteria based on a number of things, but there’s no justification that I can see for selectively declassifying some information that is all, one presumes, more or less equally sensitive.
It’s possible that a lawyer wouldn’t think that way. It could, I suppose, be explained away as an oversight. This may help explain why there’s no big hew and cry about this issue.
froggermarch, I hope your cat Mr. McBlarneyStone (can’t ‘member his real name, sorry) had a good birthday! Welcome back.
118 I guess if punaise were here, he’d say: [sic] ‘em!
Sorry, somewhat off topic:
Just received this in an email from ACLU:
“Dear John,
Americans are refusing to stand by silently and let the government’s illegal spying programs go on unquestioned and unauthorized. I’m writing to ask you to add your voice by participating in our next live National Town Hall meeting on spying, secrecy and presidential power.
On Tuesday, April 11, you can go online and tune in to our live forum in Denver, Colorado, where I will be joined by several distinguished panelists, including Bruce Fein, former Deputy Attorney General under President Reagan, former Colorado Senator and presidential candidate Gary Hart, and Mark Silverstein, ACLU of Colorado Legal Director. Dottie Lamm, the former first lady of Colorado, will moderate the event.
On Tuesday, you can tune in live and submit your own questions for the panel by going to:
http://www.aclu.org/presidentialpower
The event begins at 6 p.m. PDT/9 p.m. EDT. Experts from both sides of the aisle will discuss the controversy surrounding the Bush Administration’s program of illegal spying on Americans, and take questions from web audience members and live in Denver.
Together, our panel and live and online audience will break through the misinformation coming from the White House and address questions regarding the president’s violation of constitutional authority and federal law.
I hope you’ll join us live next Tuesday evening at 9 EDT/6 PDT:
http://www.aclu.org/presidentialpower
You can also watch a video archive of our February 20 National Town Hall. View the discussion, sign our Demand for the Truth and add your own comment to our call for an end to illegal spying on Americans. Selected questions and comments will be read live during the April 11 Town Hall.
Please join us then, and I hope you’ll invite your friends to tune in as well. Thanks as always for your participation and support.”
FWIW, Christy, I’m not sure who is doing PR/communications for the Kos Panel, but all the people mentioned in this email might appreciate an invitation?
“Shrub meet Cherry Tree”
http://www.derenegade.blogspot.com/
Scarecrow #60, excellent list. One thing to add is that late one afternoon in Texas VP Cheney shot an old man in the face, and didn’t think to let the public know about it, or be interviewed by the police, until the next day. And the victim had a mild heart attack after that. Froggermarch may have read about this as it was covered a bit in the media.
One question I would pose to Scotty M: When Libby disclosed the declassified (?) parts of the NIE to Miller, was this on background with sources not to be revealed? Actually Ms. Miller could answer that question. If the NIE disclosure was on background, can anyone quote a precedent where classified information has been declassified, but the source of the declassification was being kept secret. I want to know how close to Alice-in-Wonderland we have reached.
For Tom #23
Mrs. Plames job was to protect your ass from WMD’s and Nukes. Since she was outed and her covert operation shutdown she can no longer do that.
I guess now that you can be gassed or nuked. Does this make you feel safer now? I hope not. Maybe the next sarrin nerve gas attack will be in your home town right next too your house.
Pleasent dreams Troll.
Hmmmm #23 wasn’t mine. Possibly some other “Tom”. In any case, his question (in so far as it was a question rather than an assertion) is an interesting one, but one that both Cristy and Fitz have answered. In his TV presentation on the indictment of Libby, Fitz made the point that in the end, it doesn’t matter which crime Libby is convicted of. The public interest is served either way.
U.S. laws against divulging classified information or identities of spies are rather complex. Some of them require proof of intent, which is always difficult. So Fitz is going with his better case, and hoping to get the goods on bigger fish.