Patrick Fitzgerald revealed a very damning bit of information regarding the President today and it seems to be having a profound effect in both the political sphere and the media. It happened on the same day that Alberto Gonzales went up to Capitol Hill and suggested that the President believes he has the legal authority to ignore FISA and tap domestic-only calls.
Says mcjoan:
He has unapologetically admitted to flouting FISA. He has penned signing statements to legislation stating that he won’t comply with it if he doesn’t want to. He has authorized leaking of classified information for purely political purposes. And now he sends his toady to the Hill to tell Congress he’ll happily violate the Constitution.
Who in their right mind is making the argument that this President is not deserving of censure?
Apparently a lot of people, many of whom have "D"s next to their name. Nancy Pelosi is but one of them, but she did it this morning over at Kos:
I am deeply concerned by the President’s justification for his domestic wire tapping program and the Administration’s unwillingness to provide details of the program to members of the intelligence committee. Senator Feingold’s complaints served to highlight some critical issues about the program and the lack of accountability in the Bush Administration. This is a serious matter and all of the facts about the surveillance program must be fully investigated before we start talking about punitive action.
I took issue with this over at Kos because I do not think the reality of the situation is getting through to our political leaders. Leaving aside for a minute that no serious investigation in a GOP-dominated congress is possible, and that most of the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee boycotted the investigative hearings into this matter only last week. It’s beside the point. As Glenn Greenwald has stated over and over, there is no question that the President of the United States broke the law:
MYTH/EXCUSE NUMBER ONE: An investigation is needed before it can be known whether the President broke the law.
This has become the favored weapon of evasion for most Democratic Senators. Most who have refused to take a position on the Feingold Resolution have used the excuse that there has to be a full investigation before they can know if censure is appropriate. We have heard this excuse from, among many others, Senators Salazar, Stabenow, Bingaman, Levin and Dodd. That is just a small sampling of the list of Democrats who have claimed not to be able to take a position on the Feingold Resolution until an "investigation" is conducted.Bush supporters have also been peddling this same myth. In his angry and rather uncontrolled rant this weekend on Chris Wallace’s show, Brit Hume proclaimed that it was somehow outrageous for Senators such as Feingold and Tom Harkin to attack the illegality of Bush’s warrantless eavesdropping when they "have not even been briefed on the program" — as though we do not yet know enough about the program in order to determine whether it is illegal.
This excuse for not taking a position on censure is not only false, but also outright illogical on its face. There are two distinct and independent issues raised by the NSA scandal:
ISSUE 1: Did the President break the law when he ordered warrantless eavesdropping on Americans?
ISSUE 2: What was the scope and extent of the President’s secret eavesdropping? Did the warrantless eavesdropping include only international calls, as he claims, or purely domestic calls as well? Were only suspected Al Qaeda members eavesdropped, on as he claims, or did the eavesdropping extend beyond that? How was it determined who would be eavesdropped on? And what was done with the information?
These issues are separate and distinct. Issue 1 is what Feingold’s Censure Resolution concerns. It is the "Illegality Question," i.e., whether the President broke the law when ordering warrantless eavesdropping on Americans. Issue 2 is the "Abuse Question," i.e., whether the President abused the eavesdropping powers he secretly exercised in violation of the law by, for instance, eavesdropping on Americans who have nothing to do with Al Qaeda or eavesdropping beyond the scope what he has claimed.
It is unquestionably true that an investigation is needed – urgently needed – in order to learn the answers to the questions relating to Issue 2. We do not know the scope and extent of the President’s warrantless eavesdropping precisely because he eavesdropped in secret in violation of the law, rather than with judicial oversight. That is why it is so inexcusable that all of the Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee voted against Sen. Rockefeller’s motion to conduct an investigation to find out the answers to these questions.
But in stark contrast to Issue 2, all the facts necessary to know the answer to Issue 1 are already disclosed, are publicly available, and have been admitted by the Administration. Therefore, while an investigation into Issue 2 is imperative, all of the facts relevant to the question of whether the President broke the law (the only issue raised by the Feingold Resolution) are already known, and for that reason it is illogical to claim that an investigation is needed before that question can be answered. Put simply, we don’t know the scope and extent of the President’s illegal eavesdropping, but we do know that the eavesdropping he ordered was illegal.
Under FISA, it is a criminal offense to eavesdrop on Americans without the oversight and approval of the FISA court. Section 1809 of FISA expressly provides that "[a] person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally – (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute. . . ." And Section 2511(2)(f) provides that FISA "shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance . . . may be conducted." Thus, a person has broken the law if — as the President admits he did — he orders eavesdropping on Americans without complying with the warrant requirements of the statute. Period.
The Administration admits that it did just that — that the President ordered exactly the warrantless eavesdropping which FISA makes it a criminal offense to engage in. The Administration does not deny this fact. They admit that the eavesdropping they engaged in is exactly the eavesdropping for which FISA requires judicial approval, but defend themselves only by claiming that they had the legal right to engage in this eavesdropping without complying with the law. Here is Alberto Gonzales making this precise admission at his December 19, 2005 press briefing with Gen. Hayden:
Now, in terms of legal authorities, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act provides — requires a court order before engaging in this kind of surveillance that I’ve just discussed and the President announced on Saturday, unless there is somehow — there is — unless otherwise authorized by statute or by Congress. That’s what the law requires.
That is Gonzales admitting that the warrantless eavesdropping they engaged in is the type for which FISA requires judicial approval. By definition, there is no investigation needed to determine whether the Administration engaged in warrantless eavesdropping prohibited by FISA because that fact is not in dispute.
In defending itself, the Administration is offering only legal arguments — not factual disputes — as to why it had the right to eavesdrop without complying with the law (namely, that the President has inherent authority to eavesdrop even if the law prohibits it, and that Congress gave him implicit permission to eavesdropping outside of FISA when it enacted the AUMF). But the Administration is not denying — and has never denied — the fact that it engaged in the very warrantless eavesdropping covered by FISA.
Thus, no investigation could even conceivably shed further light on the question of whether the President broke the law. We know he did that. The sole question which Senators have to answer is what they think the consequences ought to be, if any, for a President to order eavesdropping on Americans citizens which Americans, through their Congress, prohibited by law.
An investigation cannot answer the question as to whether U.S. Senators ought to take a stand against deliberate and ongoing lawbreaking by a President. Only U.S. Senators can answer that question, and they already have all the facts that are relevant to that question already before them. Claiming that they need further "investigation" before taking a position is nothing short of an abdication of their responsibilities, an obvious tactic for avoiding the question of whether they oppose lawbreaking by the President.
I do not know what language we are going to have to begin speaking before this gets heard. The President broke the law. It’s not open for debate. They’ve admitted it. Today we learn that the President authorized the leaking of classified information for nothing more than political gain while the American public could not be told about serious intelligence community doubts as to the existence of WMDs contained in that same information.
What the hell is it going to take before politicians stop cynically playing the percentages game and take a stand, like Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Tom Harkin and Pat Leahy to do the right thing?
Related posts:
- Holder Refuses to Stand by Statements Saying Violating FISA Breaks the Law
- CIA Inspector General Report on Warrantless Surveillance Released
- FISA v AUMF: Bush Wiretap Program Based on Lies
- BREAKING: Stunning al-Haramain Filing Shames Obama; Shows Duplicity of Officials
- Silvestre Reyes Announces Investigation into Violations of National Security Act





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Fitz ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out later !
Amen, Jane. Amen.
The Man Himself
What’s it gonna take? Once upon a time [probably apocryphal] Laura jerked his chain…too bad she’s Laurevita now.
There is no honor in bearing false witness.
There is no honor in ends justifying means.
There is no honor in this White House.
Having a little fangirl moment here. I’ll be better soon.
Go Jane.
I just read Pelosi’s diary and I thought what a crock of bull in reference to her position on censure.
censure sure makes sense.
WRT the guy who spoke against Bush today.
There is a recc’d diary on it at Kos and in the diary there is this comment http://www.dailykos.com/commen…..0764/29#29
Harry had a ticket because… (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:MrSandman
he is a member of the sponsoring organization (World Affairs Council). He attended because he was hoping for the opportunity to speak his mind to the president.
Check out my previous post in this diary…Harry is a member of my MoveOn team. Not even close to a “Republican Insider”.
We are the people we are looking for.
by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:27:33 PM EST
Hope this helps. Gotta run.
fer fucks sake. wake the fuck up already. were bleeding in here.
Seems to me I saw some polls when Feingold first brought out the censure resolution that showed 60% of Democrats for the resolution, and a bare majority of all voters for. Why doesn’t this make a difference with the supposed Democratic leaders?
Ah…as I write this, I realize: when you strike at the King, strike to kill.
And the next comment?
“that is a great comment.”
You are the best, Jane, bar none.
A few questions for those of you who are more legally minded than I am:
1. If the chain of evidence leads compellingly to the President, can Fitzgerald indict him?
2. If a sitting president is indicted, does that automatically initiate impeachment proceedings in Congress? My understanding of jefferson’s manual is that a prosecutorial writ is one of four or five ways impeachment proceedings could be triggered, in theory? Of course, the rethugs in Congress could simply suspend or dispense with the manual…
3. What are the prospects of this happening?
“The President broke the law. It’s not open for debate. They’ve admitted it.”
No, this President takes the position that he CANNOT break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.”
(CNN) “… in a House Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday, New York Rep. Jerrold Nadler quizzed Attorney General Alberto Gonzales about whether Bush could declassify documents “for political reasons.”
“The president is going to make the determination as to what’s in the best interest of the country,” Gonzales replied.”
George W. Bush ALONE decides what’s in the best interest of the nation. Are we clear?
Slap him down. Or suffer the consequences.
EPU’d (and strangely enough, EPU was in the room at the time):
“What would be the appropriate response of Congress and the Courts?†–orangejumpsuit
orange, I believe the almighty EPU is correct about the Saturday Night Massacre during Watergate. I believe that is when Nixon jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
Would the public and Congressional reaction be the same today? That’s hard to say. For one thing, we have a Republican Congress. But maybe if The People turned out in force with their pitchforks and torches, we could make something happen.
Come on, Gonzo, you punk. Make my day.
The congress will decide to reign in the executive branch on the day that a democrat takes office.
Jane: Can we put this up as a petition somewhere and get signatures?
Have any of you seen this yet?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Jason Leopold has just published an article at TruthOut entitled, Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak, that says the US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will soon release proof that both President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were at the center of the NIE Plamegate leaks. They authorized them, and were kept fully informed by emails that Fitzgerald has in his possession!”
“Sic semper tyrannus!”
ISSUE 2: What was the scope and extent of the President’s secret eavesdropping? Did the warrantless eavesdropping include only international calls, as he claims, or purely domestic calls as well? Were only suspected Al Qaeda members eavesdropped, on as he claims, or did the eavesdropping extend beyond that? How was it determined who would be eavesdropped on? And what was done with the information?
Sounds like Abu cleared all this confusion up today. From RawStory: “NYT Friday: Gonzales says Bush has authority to wiretap calls exclusively within United States… Developing…”
Hope that clears up any confusion.
The Democratic “leadership” believes that the Republicans are falling apart all by themselves and that calling for censure of the President detracts from that process.
It’s a Harry Reid as Sun Tzu thing: why fight the enemy when the enemy is destroying himself?
Thus we get the smokescreen of “let’s wait for an investigation.”
I would say that this kind of thinking had its place up until today. But now, we’re in a new world.
I wonder how quickly the Democratic “leadership” will get it and see that calling for censure clearly facilitates the process of weakening GOP strength.
It’s at the point where they can be pushed over and can’t get up again.
“censure sure makes sense.”
Censure the President for willfully skirting the constitution? Sure. Whatever. I personally think that act deserves much more than censure, but I’m supportive of Feingold’s approach and will push my senators to support him in it.
Censure the President for willfully violating Federal criminal law for political gain? No way. If Libby’s allegations bear up, censure is an utterly inappropriate response. Nothing shore of an orange jumpsuit would redeem the republic….
17 enc says:
April 6th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Have any of you seen this yet?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Jason Leopold has just published an article at TruthOut entitled, Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak, that says the US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will soon release proof that both President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were at the center of the NIE Plamegate leaks. They authorized them, and were kept fully informed by emails that Fitzgerald has in his possession!â€
Jason also wrote the other day that Fitz will be going to GJ soon for Rove indictment.
Blub, you asked:
1. If the chain of evidence leads compellingly to the President, can Fitzgerald indict him?
a succinct answer just appeared here
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Finally, the Fitzgerald investigation is picking up steam. But before becoming too excited, please remember folks, that Fitzgerald can not indict a sitting President. He can only name him as an unindicted coconspirator, and we do not have any indication that he intends to do this…yet. Fitzgerald can indict the VP. But a sitting President can only be tried and removed with an impeachment process. But the smoking gun evidence appears to be near.”
I thought that whole “the President cannot break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.— BS was settled during Nixon. Why are they still bringing that crap up? There is no “divine right of Presidents.”
the Leopold atory says Bush was kept informed via Email about the Plame leak. As I understood it, Bush doesn’t do Email…
I REPEAT: this President takes the position that he CANNOT break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.†His plenary “authority” as Commander-in-Chief” in a post 9/11 world entitles him to do as he pleases with respect to “what’s in the best interest of the country,” and HE alone gets to decide which policy areas such unilateral authority extends to, domestic or foreign.
Hyperbolic? I don’t think so.
I’ve seen this kind of thing countless times in corporate meetings and especially when I worked in local government. Nobody wants to be responsible when the shit hits the fan, so actions are tabled indefinitely while everyone waits for more information. Shame on Nancy Pelosi, as Minority Leader, for acting just like a timid middle manager hoping some magic bullet will come along to absolve her of responsibility of action. She’s the leader, she should be able to stand up and act with conviction.
“Don’t fire until you see the whites of their eyes”….I’m going to disagree with you on your position in this post Ms. Hamsher. From what I gather, the general public still has a LOT of hesitation on censure and certainly impeachment. It has to do with the war, and hesitation that we show weakness to the enemy. Now, I do NOT agree with the general public, but so be it. Some Democrats don’t want to “piss off” the general public when things seem to be going our way. And, alas, alot of my Democratic leaders are just plain chicken…I regret to admit.
Thus, timing may be EVERYTHING on censure. It may be a little too early for the stomachs of middle-of-the-road Americans. I HATE sitting on my rear and doing nothing…but in this case it may be the wisest choice for now. Let’s wait just a bit longer before we fire…wait till we see the whites of their eyes…then CREAM THEM.
PS: anyone think a censure motion modified to “censure the president for releasing classified national security matters purely for political gain” might have a little more traction? Just a thought. Let’s keep our powder dry….we’re gonna get these repugs! Ghostman
ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT
AGAINST GEORGE W. BUSH
ISBN 1-933633-08-5
$9.95 paperback original (144 pages)
SEND A COPY TO YOUR CONGRESSPERSON
You buy the book, we pay the postage…
The price of $4.95 reflects the deduction of our shipping and handling fees. We will send the book, with a note saying it is “courtesy of your constituent, (your name and address),” to the member of the House of Representatives for your billing zip code. Note: You do not need to tell us who your Representative is, nor their address. Also, note that we are sending only to members of the House, not the Senate, because impeachment proceedings must commence in the House.
http://www.mhpbooks.com/aoi.html
play the percentages, Jane? Shit, I could only wish they would start doing that. This is a president who was rated at 36% in a Fox News poll.
It’s about time they started cynically playing the percentages. What they are doing instead is, running scared from their own shadows.
Hmm… is Fitz trying to destroy Bush politically before issuing indictments? This could be smart…he’s releasing info that shows Bush was complicit, so that when the next indictments come, even if Bush is not named, he will be seen as a target.
cleter -
It’s never settled, not for this criminal asshole. If other branches of government don’t step up and act to restrain him, he’ll take every ounce of power he can grab.
“And That’s Up To The U.S. Attorney To Find The Facts…”
I promise you Mr. President, that I shall, that I shall, or my name is not Patrick J. Fitzgerald!
President Bush: “I want to know the truth…”
(Press Conference, Savannah, Georgia, 6/10/04).
Sure you do, but do you want everyone else to know it too? ;)
http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com
PS: Christy’s article was “Fitz’s Pick Of the Day!”
Jane: Capitol Hill.
be right back.
Go Jane! Go Glenn Greenwald! We need to beat the drum on this and never stop until justice is done.
With regard to Glenn’s Issue 2, an important point is that it doesn’t just matter whether the calls monitored by the NSA involved suspected Al Qaeda members; it matters who made that determination. Who decided there was probable cause? That is not the administration’s job, that is the court’s job. And in this case, it never happened. It is easy for the NSA to say that someone is a “suspected Al Qaeda member.” But that is not the standard; that is not the end of the inquiry. The government could decide that Russell Feingold or Keith Olbermann (or anyone they talk to on the phone) is a “suspected Al Qaeda member.” But to make the search legal under FISA and the 4th Amendment, a judge has to agree with them. That didn’t happen here. That is the essence of Bush’s crime.
MATTHEWS: The president’s policy has been in another direction. The president has said other presidents beyond me, my successors will have to deal with the number of troops we still have in that country. Is he sending them the opposite signal, we’re going to be here, we’re going to have permanent bases here, you don’t have to worry?
KERRY: I believe that’s the wrong signal and yes they have never been willing to say we will not have permanent bases. I think it is critical for the United States to announce that. We can protect our interests in the region. We will be stronger against Iran if we’re out of Iraq. We will be stronger with respect to what Putin is doing in Russia today if we regain our moral authority in the region.
We must change this policy and the time is now and it’s immoral to allow our kids to be killed while these guys are frittering around, playing their political games. We wouldn’t tolerate it here, we wouldn’t tolerate it anywhere else. It shouldn’t be done.
(MSNBC)
Ugh! I get so mad over this censure issue. I wish Democrats would just support it already.
From the last thread “What’s more evil than lawyers?”
Hey, watch how you talk about Christy.
I agree with puppethead (27). We are in a Constitutional crises and the [expletive deleted] Dems are still looking over their shoulder to see if opposition is gaining on their re-election front. Hello??? We have the clearest evidence short of the indictment of Cheney that the President has decided he is a monarch. Congress is irrelevant. The courts are irrelevant. What is a congressional seat worth if nothing you say or do makes any difference to the executive? The democracy is going down the tubes and these cowardly shits in the Democratic party are still cowering in a corner like a gaggle of abused children. If you, as a representative of the people, can’t stand up at this time, please get the [expletive deleted] out of the way!!!
I’ve said my piece on Censure many times–I’m for it if it helps to win seats in 06 and against it otherwise. I’m not certain- but I suspect that pushing the issue now hurts rather than helps.
Of course there will BE no censure- we all know that- so it’s an academic discussion and I guess I’ll stay out of it.
Demz are wimps. But they will take well-deserved shit if/when BushCo does go down b/c they sat on the sideline and refused to take a stand. The spoils will not go to Schumer, Reid, et al.
What I can’t figure out is why Pelosi came back. It’s not as if she couldn’t read the comments and see where the majority of those responding were coming from (not her side to be sure).
But I have a theory. It has to do with what happens to lotsa folks when they are elected to office. It’s why US representatives can’t be bothered to pay for a better security system in their capitol and wear an id bigger than those itsy bitsy pins that McKinney got stuck on. The rules apply to everyone but them. And looking at Bush’s actions, it appeals to this shadow side of themselves, and inwardly they think, “yeah, that’s the way you do it.” They think they know better than 99% of the population because by gum they not only got elected, but after they got elected, all these folks started telling them how wonderful and smart and beautiful they are. And they start to believe it.
It is written that always in the chariot with Caesar was an individual who would constantly murmur in Caesar’s ear, “Remember, that thou too art mortal, O Caeser.” They had a specific title (which I of course can’t remember right now) and some historians have suggested that eventually they became what we know as court jesters, as the original function disappeared. I think we need to bring the custom back and saddle each elected representative, senator president, and governor with one. Somehow these folks have to remember that they, too are mortal.
Until that happens, we will be treated this way by both parties.
Lest you think that I speak only of this from a distance, 8 years ago the ex was elected to the state legislature and almost immediately underwent a profound personality change, or at least a latent aspect of the personality that I had not detected in 15+ years of marriage came out. Why come home to the spouse and kids when you’ve got loyal sycophants and actual groupies who give you much more positive strokes?
We need to bring Pelosi and other waffling Dems down to earth.
George Bush: Hitler’s Revenge.
What does Teddy’s post mean? Should we be watching CSpan or something? I’ll go peek.
What’s happening on Capitol Hill?
28: sorry, but ‘powder dry’ don’t fly here. Try kos for that meme.
What the hell is it going to take before politicians stop cynically playing the percentages game and take a stand, like Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Tom Harkin and Pat Leahy to do the right thing?
My guess would be for a video to surface showing Dick and Duh-bya engaged in the ritualistic slaying and subsequent consumption of multiple 24 month old toddlers.
And even then I would have my doubts about the Dems coming out stongly against the practice.
And of course the administration would eexplain it away, and Old Media would dutifully report it, as being in the best interests of national security.
If we don’t kill and eat these babies the terrorists win. See?
neurophius (35) Yes, and the abuse of power can be made into a simple campaign slogan/advertisement.
“George Bush cannot catch al queda members because he is too busy spying on you and other political enemies.”
Pacha @ 16
http://www.tomharkin.com/nl/CensurePetition.htm
Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence
Use imagination to update these statements to the present time and situation
He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
rwcole — I understand your reluctance. There is a desperate need to do what it takes to win either of the houses of Congress in the fall, get the majority back and start cleaning up this mess.
But sometimes you have to do the right thing in anticipation of the facts catching up to you as they are here. If you know what the right thing to do is, and you haven’t stood up for your beliefs, when the truth outs at a later time you look like you didn’t have the courage of your convictions. It’s happening to Feingold right now. The short term “don’t rock the boat” thinking is, I believe, much riskier with a President who is imploding daily. Do the right thing and he will play to your hand just by being who he is — a corrupt incompetent fuck-up.
Moe99 no. 42
Are you sure the ex didn’t just fall in love with the unlimited cocktail weenies?
From Jason Leopold at Truthout.org:
The officials, some of whom are attorneys close to the case, added that more than two dozen emails that the vice president’s office said it recently discovered and handed over to leak investigators in February show that President Bush was kept up to date about the circumstances surrounding the effort to discredit former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.
The sources indicated that the leak probe is now winding down, and that soon, new information will emerge from the special counsel’s office that will prove President Bush had prior knowledge of the White House campaign to discredit Plame Wilson’s husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who accused the administration of “twisting” intelligence on the Iraqi threat in order to win public support for the war.
The new information that surfaced late Wednesday places President Bush at the center of the probe for the first time since the investigation into the leak began more than two years ago and raises new questions as to whether Bush knew in advance the lengths to which senior White House officials went to discredit Wilson.
Thank you, zenn.
Found this GOP infighting cancels budget vote
Slothrop
Some more pseudo Sun Tzu:
There is no reason to stand up if your enemy is falling down.
The best battle is the one that is not fought.
Confuse your enemies by agreeing with them.
Accommodation betrays a greater wisdom.
clueless: mind if I unbold that? It’s a bit much, but I would keep the italics.
sorry z just a spelling correction of Capital Hill in Jane’s post, I couldn’t leave it alone and had to comment: Capitol Hill, to correct her spelling.
OT: New territory for Rita Cosby:
Missing (young, good looking) white man.
I have to acknowledge that as much as I would like to see a censure motion advanced (if not a double impeachment inquiry) there is something to be said for assembling more facts first, because there seems to be ever more damning information about the Bush/Cheney lies that are revealed with each passing week, which could ultimately lead to broad based support for their censure, if not outright removal.
Pach,
You watch Rita Cosby and admit it? Now, that’s standing up for your convictions. *g*
Repost from previous thread:
Stephen Parrish, CPA says:
April 6th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Links to two of Jason Leopold’s stories: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040606Y.shtml and http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040606R.shtml
The headlines:
Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak
Evidence Suggests White House Conspiracy
kirby:
I’ve been wondering–what does *g* mean?
*g* == Grin
Yeoooooooooooowwwwwwwww! Moe99 rocks wit da history.
It’ still a leeeetle early in the Nixon curve. That’s the arc Nixon described as he hurtled from an overwhelming mandate received in his victory over McGovern to self-destruction, splattering himself all over the landscape in a vindication of our democratic republic.
Don’t imagine that the Senators who are getting their faces smeared with rhetorical feces by the McChimpy’s designated ape Torture Boy Gonzales. No, no, no they are waiting for the opportunity to fuck the little turd up. And they are gonna take Bushfuhrer down too. It’s gonna be real bad for McChimp and Big Time…real bad. For a foreshadow read what the WingNut Senator Sensenbrenner had to say today. Check out how Condi-Lies-a-Lot got handled today.
Get the popcorn ready the show is just now beginning.
Hint: The bad guy gets it in the end.
As a resident of a dyed-in-the-wool Blue State, the Empire State as it used to be known , allow me express &/or chime in with the dismay a lot of us feel over the abject, total, complete, utter, over the top failure of Hill&Chuck or is it Chuck&Hill?, to display the smallest pair of huevos. Hell, no! we’re running in aught eight!! Well, by then, it’ll either be too late or we’ll be crossing our knives and forks in preparation to eating the……….rich?
Jane,
That’s a pretty good argument- the “lead opinion by example” argument I guess.
Of course it’s NOT as if the dems aren’t bashing holy hell out of Clusterfuck daily- they are.
THIS issue is about forcing dems to vote on a resolution that may force many of them to vote “no” for their own political survival- (red state dems) and that would be divisive.
I’m a shitty chess player- but this requires thinking a few steps ahead.
1) Push for vote on censure (not hard- goopers seem to be salivating about it).
2) Vote comes in with dems split on the matter and goopers 100% against..
At the end of the day- what has been accomplished? The public that is paying attention will know that SOME dems want to censure the president- but they won’t know any more than they know now about why. The dems come across as fragmented- and the senate is on record as saying by majority that he should not be censured.
Does that help? I’m not so sure.
We’ve got some red staters up for re-election- and to expect them to fall on their swords in a doomed effort is expecting too much in my opinion.
If they are forced to vote “no” they will- and the message about Clusterfuck will be weaker for it.
I just can’t get this to play out as a “win” scenario- but maybe I’m being dense.
Isn’t anyone opposed to Feingold’s resolution complicit in the Preznit’s lawbreaking and therefore at risk of removal from office as well?
Heh. I have the sound off. I got a phone call during Olbermann and forget the tv was still on. Then I saw the good looking guy and the headline.
:)
rwcole @ 6:34 pm – What Jane said. Plus…
I think that the Democrats are in a worse position than they could have been if they’d taken real, principled stands for the rule of law and civil rights before now. Instead, most said little or nothing. Chuck Schumer’s excoriation of Bush today sounds like the political opportunism that it is, and rings hollow of the ears of everyone who’s been following events in the last few years. Only a few Democrats voted against the Iraq War authorization, and that hurt Kerry in 2004, among others.
Just waiting around to let the other guy screw up might be a safe strategy, but it’s not going to win anyone’s respect.
Rich – The thing is the dems can have it both ways – unity in calling for censure and stonewalling repugs making sure it doesn’t happen. The info would continue to be collected but dems would at least stand for something and answer the calls of their constituency. It is the sort of position that most would call a “no brainer,” or even “win-win” for the Dems. Which also then begs the question of whether dems think of that “no brainer” thing differently.
I really think censure is working as a means of keeping the discussion going. Then on top of it little facts keep coming out. Then Kerry gets on TV and says we need out of Iraq. It helps keeping the discussion on what they have done wrong and whether or not it deserves impeachment/censure. IMO this is where we want to be with them on the ropes. Then the sucker punch can be “Rubber Stamp Republican Congress” and “Bush authorized Treasonous Leak!” (very fond of that headline)
BTW did we ever get the rubber stamp video. Saw the C-Span video. Very cool.
Look… the laws of the US, the Constitution, International laws mean nothing to these guys. 9.11 is their excuse to ignore the law, act beyond the law, re define it to suit and justify their actions.
What we really need to do is to challenge their 9.11 BS that we are at war. That is the shield that they use to deflect ALL criticism.
We are not at war. There is no war.
Whew, Pach, I feel so much better now. Sigh.
Jane & RW
MLK said in his letter from the Birmingham Jail
There’s not much more I or anyone can add to that.
I think that discrediting Joe Wilson is the red herring in this leak. The real objective was to shut down the operation monitoring proliferation, particularly as it applied or not to Iran that was Plame’s ballywick. They didn’t want a source of accurate information available vis-a-vis Iran when they got around to hyping the easily duped American public for another illegal war of choice against another country – Iran.
Can the (P)resident be a child molester too, if he wants to be? Just how far does executive privilege extend?
rwcole: Her’s what I think you’re missing.
You were right the first time: it won’t come to a vote, but you don’t just get political mileage out of a vote. You can get political mileage out of a growing movement saying president has broken the law.
Minority party politics involves a lot of theater. It’s about time we acted accordingly. And in this case, it’s not cynical, Gingrich theater. It’s a real defense of representative government.
Cujo359 … contrary to the belief propagated by the WH, the majority of Democrats in Congress voted against that War Resolution
I asked this before.. any tie-ine with pre-knowledge about the niger forgeries? Tying those to the White House would be the last thread to tie.. sorry for the awkward english.. SLow!!!!
CIeran says:
April 6th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
“…while executive orders clarify the declassification process, it is still a matter of law, e.g., the Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954, and thus not merely derived from mutable executive order.
The WH simply cannot declassify much information about WMD (and remember that discussions about Iraq, or for that matter, Joe Wilson’s trip to Africa, are at their heart all about WMD….”
This is an intriguing thought. If Bush broke the law (another one), this would be about his lawbreaking, like the NSA warrantless wiretapping.
Another thought: what if Bush told Scooter (or told Cheney to tell Scooter, what’s the diff?) to tell a foreign government (oh, say the British) the same story? Wouldn’t that be treason? Are the Republicans actually going to say that WHATEVER George does is legal?
77: yes and under whose leadership? oh, that lady who returned to kos for more feedback today? the one who saved our Social Security? the gal several steps closer to Geena Davis status if we can regain the House this fall and then let the chips fall where they may?
her?
Wilson, 25
“the Leopold atory says Bush was kept informed via Email about the Plame leak. As I understood it, Bush doesn’t do Email… “
This may be true (I wouldn’t know) but Bush does not have to personally manage his email.I would think there is an email account for his office that would be handled by a WH aide with Top Secret clearance.
Joe Conason snip, at Salon.com:
“… Libby’s story doesn’t directly implicate the president in the Plame leak. But the latest revelations contrast rather sharply with the assurances provided by White House press secretary Scott McClellan back in the fall of 2003, when the administration was still resisting the appointment of a special prosecutor or independent counsel to probe the leak of Plame’s identity. On Sept. 29, 2003, Helen Thomas asked him whether “the president has tried to find out who outed the CIA agent? And has he fired anyone in the White House yet?”
In his most patronizing tone, McClellan replied, “Helen, that’s assuming a lot of things. First of all, that is not the way this White House operates. The President expects everyone in his administration to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. No one would be authorized to do such a thing.” Asked whether the president knew anything beyond what the media had reported, McClellan said, “We don’t have any information [about the leak] that’s been brought to our attention beyond what we’ve seen in the media reports. I’ve made that clear.” He emphasized that the president knew nothing about the leak, repeating, “We have nothing beyond those media reports to suggest there is White House involvement.”
The press secretary bristled when Thomas and other reporters suggested that the president had reacted too passively to the leak, and seemed unconcerned about its implications for national security and Plame’s safety.
“Absolutely, the President believes that this is a serious matter when you’re talking about the leak of classified information,” said McClellan. “The leak of classified information, yes, you’re absolutely right, can compromise sources and methods. That’s why the President takes it very seriously, and we’ve always taken it very seriously.”
That was the famous press briefing when McClellan exonerated Rove, while promising that any official responsible for the leak would be fired. “If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration,” he said, speaking for the president.
How will McClellan explain away Libby’s testimony…”
***
drip, drip, drip, drip…
as some wag in here reminded us: tomorrow Scotty will face what Jon Stewart would characterize as a Level 5 Shitstorm …
Guardian Headline and no kiddin’ around lead paragraph:
Bush implicated in leak on Iraq intelligence
George Bush authorised a senior aide to the vice-president, Dick Cheney, to leak classified intelligence on Iraq to the New York Times reporter Judith Miller, according to court documents made public yesterday.
Maybe Scotty will announce his resignation to deflect the obvious.
jane, I hate to say this, but without a media to tell the public what is going on, they will continue to believe the rush and hannidys of the airwaves
really, it is left for the dnc to take every last penny in their chest and hammer the media, with adds and adds and adds.
we must take whatever is left and while the u.s. dollar is still worth something, and we have to MAKE the public aware of what is becomming of their country
#45, a Mr. Teddy from Frisco…..I “think” your comment belittles mine, but I’m new here. I’ve heard of the Kos blog but don’t have too much familiarity with it. But I “guess” this Mr. Kos echoes my view?
In any event, I just think that the general public, while not having confidence in Bush (all the polls so document), are still a little antsy over a censure of Bush regarding the wiretapping issue. I sorta think (and now I’m really reading tea leaves) that the public worries that if we censure Bush over wiretapping al queda, and he stops doing it, we might be subject to an attack. I DISAGREE with such reasoning…but there you go. Which is why a “different” type of censure might be more viable, as I suggested above. Thanks all, and Mr. Teddy in Frisco, you enjoy your evening. Ghostman
God Bless Patrick Fitzgerald. And goodnight.
Impeachment now.
#83– hope chertoff et al are ready for the level 5 storm coming their way…..
How long ago did Feingold introduce his censure resolution, a month ago? He has been wildly successful with it, timid and frightened Democratic colleagues not withstanding. His resolution is being taken as seriously, if not more so, as when he introduced it. Try as they might, the GOP and Vichy Democrats couldn’t kill the story in the media. With the new revelations of Bush’s malfeasance of office Feingold’s resolution looks even better, contrasting sharply with a GOP Congress who was just seen high-fiving their disgraced chief criminal.
As Jane said, take the principled stand and let the Bush government’s meltdown catch up with you. Anything else looks like indecisiveness or political opportunism.
That dog don’t hunt no more, Ghostman:
“Let’s keep our powder dry … we’re gonna get these repugs! Ghostman”
Keeping the powder dry is what the Vichy Dems said on Supremo Roberts and on filibuster (for which they allegedly fought to maintain but then totally ignored when they should have used the fought-for right) on ScAlito.
Not supporting Conyer’s HR 635 on investigating Impeachment? More “dry powder.”
Not backing Feingold on Censure? More “desert fart dry powder.”
I think this “let’s keep our powder dry” argument of spineless Democrats should be reversed right back in their weasel, ferret faces: The Dry Powder Flatulence Machine.
OK, Libby made this assertion under Oath under potential penalty of further perjury charge. I would ask Snotty McFelon at the next WH press briefing “is Mr. Libby lying? Yes or no. Can you take this opportunity to unequivocally clear the President and the Vice President?” Simple question.
rwcole: you might be correct on a vote for censure. But Dems need to be moving much more aggressively on some front. If vote on censure is a really bad move for reasons you give, then I think Dems should be pushing for action in congress much more aggressively. Get Robers and Frist to explain why they can’t investigate every day. I suppose they could do regular public education actions, a little polite and genteel political theatre like a demonstration in front of WH, or a symbolic congressional walkout, slow down congress (but that would take people like Schumer and Emanuel admitting that maybe they made a mistake re hearings and rev something up)
Digby hits just right note, I think. Can this Digby, whatever he or she is, be a Big Shot Democratic consultant? I will recommned Digby. Dems need to do something regularly that public notices, prefaced by Digby’s seniments.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..9111849023
President Bush may be the most dishonest president in history, as I believe — or he may be no more dishonest than most presidents, as others believe. But I think we should all agree that the country should not have to depend upon the president’s reputation for personal honesty as to whether they are allowed to break the law.
The NSA wiretapping scandal turns on exactly this issue. Everyone agrees that the government should be able to wiretap terrorists and terrorist sympathizers in the US. But we should not accept that the president or the people who report to him can make the determination as to who those people are without any oversight. There is a long history of other presidents using their power for political purposes and this one is no exception.
George W. Bush cannot be given a free pass on this.
I absolutely support censure. There have been months and months of hearings and facts, all which blatantly prove that there have been crimes and that the pres has lied repeatedly to us and to the Congress. I understand rw’s point about it not passing because of a repug majority, we all do. I want principles back on our governmnet and I think this censure resolution is the opportunity to hold the majority’s feet to the fire. I don’t think there will ever be a better time. The Democrats, when they gain the majority, will have the biggest mess in history to work on as they try to bring us back to a democracy we can trust and believe in. The debt and the war alone could keep them working around the clock for months. If a crime is committed outside your door, do you have to think about whether it is the right time to call the police? Will it disturb the neighbors if the sirens wail? Will they come in and disturb your TV viewing asking questions? Are you afraid your name will be in the paper?
There is no good time in a government to ask hard questions and demand answers. But we have elected officials who swore to uphold the Constitution which is currently on its way to the landfill, and I feel like the Democrats are standing in the driveway waving goodbye, while the republicans drive the truck. I think it’s a smug and safe approach, because it’s a big fucking truck and it smells. But if you just accept it and let it go because you don’t have the time or inclination to try to stop it, then just stand there and wave while we run and shoot out the tires, for ourselves, and yes, for you, too.
(Please forgive such mixed metaphors)
Are we headed inexorably toward a new version of 1968? Are we destined to total disillusionment with all political establishment? If so, where are the good drugs? Or will SSRIs prevent it all and make us all ultimately pliant?
Sorry, it’s been a weird day.
A. Citizen – “It’ still a leeeetle early in the Nixon curve….”
Yeah, I’m thinking the same thing. I figure we’re somewhere around early ‘73…the seeds of the destruction for Nixon’s regime had been sown for more than a year, but it still took another 16 months for the corpse to finally stop twitching.
Chimpy and Co. are doomed, no question about it. Their fate is sealed. How long they’ll scream and struggle is the issue…and how many innocents will be thrashed to pieces by the monster in it’s death throes.
Hubby wants some attention so I have to stop feeding this addiction. Damn.
Night all
With all the brouhaha about leaking, we are missing the real point.
Bush was, according to Jason Leopold today, interviewed by federal investigators, and told them that he knew nothing of an effort to discredit Wilson. If, in fact, evidence surfaces that Bush DID know of such an effort, then he has committed a felony under USC 18 section 1001, and he should be impeached.
Jane,
Thank you so very much for all the work you have done. I just got home from work and though the news is overwhelming, I am grateful to be informed. There has never been a bit of doubt in my mind that Bush and his criminal cohorts had planned this from the get go. I told my family long before the 2000 election was stolen, Bush would lead us into war. I absolutely hate having been right.
I have once again written to Durbin and to Obama. They continue to do nothing and I continue to stomp my feet. I hope to attend Obama’s townhall meeting next week in Chicago. If he doesn’t hear from me, he’ll hear from others. (My jaw hurts from being so angry.)
OT, neurophius, I’m sure there were cocktail weenies involved, but the tipping point were the explicit emails left in the delete file of the family computer to a new “friend” that the ex forgot to do the final delete on. Ever heard the term, “dead to rights?”
we need some lawyerin’ up here re: what laws may have been bent or broken when Bush/Cheny told Libby to reveal classified info.
and, another issue I raised weeks ago was mentioned in an earlier thread:
masaccio says:
April 6th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Prof Foland posted the classification order in an earlier thread. I think it is important to note that every reference to the power of the vice president to classify, and by implication, declassify, is limited to the case where he is acting “in the performance of executive dutiesâ€. See, e.g., sect 1.3a(1).
I cannot see how this happens otherwise than in performance of some publicly delegated duty, or if the president is incapacitated.
Any Constitutional/Federal type lawyers out there want some really juicy pro bono work?
whoa. 99 seesdifferent. GOOD ONE. please pursue.
Go Girls!
rw- it is the Dems in the Red state’s job to reach out to those gooper voters and explain thier position on this, to explain why the gooper way isn’t working. That’s what campaigns are for.
Digby hits just right note, I think. Can this Digby, whatever he or she is, be a Big Shot Democratic consultant? I will recommned Digby. Dems need to do something regularly that public notices, prefaced by Digby’s seniments.
Outstanding point. The Party is must recruit the best thinkers and strategists, or it is doomed. I don’t think it has a clue right now.
Bush was not under oath. He does that when he wants to fib
[ winger ] in the Global War Against Terror, the Preznit can lie to whomever he wishes, including the FBI [ /winger ]
what a night. KO KO’s Bush. Even Lou Dobbs got in a few licks. Applause all around. TiredFed too tired. ‘night all.
seesdifferent -
They will spin it as ‘the President legitimately authorized the release of information of critical importance to the American people’ having nothing to do with Wilson/Plame directly. Unless Libby has hard evidence contravening that, Bush eludes legal accountability yet again.
You just watch.
Marky – I think lying to a federal official while not under oath gets you a false statement charge, while lying under oath would be perjury. Anyone feel free to correct me.
Yeah, zennurse, I’m with you. This is no time for nothing, which is what we got from the Dems.
I must say today has left me a little breathless. Who the gods would destroy they first drive insane. Looks like that might be happening with both Bushites and Dems. Bushites insanely arrogant and aggressive, Dems insanely deluded.
DeLay may have become insanely arrogant. He sends goons out to very goonishly and violently break up a standard every day political rally, pushes old ladies in the face, and all recorded for TV. That clip better be on the news all over the country. It is an odd start for Reverand DeLays ministry in Chrsit, I must say.
At some point, Dems must react, somehow, someway. Many of us have been predicting that the Bushites would come after the Dems viciously no matter what the Dems did. I did not think that it would be this early though.
[ winger ] if Clinton had been fighting Al-Qaeda, he could have gotten those BJs according to Article 2 of the Constitution [ /winger ]
marky,
Bush is never under oath. He won’t ever be interviewed under oath. But he will go on the teevee and lie to everyone and make them think he’s just a good ole boy paying a visit to the folks.
Wow, watch the bush apologists at the WP get spun, spun, spun. Kinda destroys your cred when you offer up Cilizza and Baker to do your dirty work for ya. Sorry WP. After the WMD and Woodward debacle, we know who your Bush apologists are now. If this was Clinton you’d be calling for his head.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02062.html
56 Pachacutec says:
April 6th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
clueless: mind if I unbold that? It’s a bit much, but I would keep the italics.
Yeah, that bolding is too much, I agree. But how do I unbold???
99: now, there’s an idea! Ok, I read here that Bush was NOT under oath. BUT, I also recall from the Libby indictment that it’s a felony to even make a “false statement” to an FBI agent. Did Bush make false statements to Fitz & FBI agents? Was Cheney present during the interview? (a simultaneous interview as was done for the 911 commission investigation.)
Boy oh boy….if the president and VP LIED during their interview re: what was/was not released by or thru them on the NIE stuff….there’s some real fire starting to burn. Hmmm….let’s see what transpires! Ghostman
I wouldn’t have said this even three weeks ago, but I don’t think it matters what the hapless dems do anymore. Bush Inc. has told so many bald faced lies, engaged in so many murderous abuses of common decency, that they cannot avoid the flood. It is only a matter of time before the levee breaks even in the most red states (hello Utah!).
Leslie — If you go see Obama definitely let us know how it goes. We love to hear about that stuff. And don’t be afraid to speak up!
clueless: you can’t but I can edit. I wanted your permission first, but now it’s done.
Cheers!
Mauriccceeeee!
Bush may have committed a crime (lying to congress).
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/v…..0503-8317r
The base must be starting to crack -I wonder how that impertinent fellow got into the president’s talk with the carefully screened “fellow citizens” today? Either people with spotless records of 100% Bush-thought are changing their minds, and changing them enough to get up and confront Bush in the spotlight. Or local GOP staff are saying “Awww… %$#!!@!! it!” Wonder which. Neither is a good sign for them.
Clusterfuck’s got a problem in the morning- does he stick to his “Can’t comment on an ongoing investigation” bullshit? If won’t go over well if he does- but that’s the most likely scenario.
“The new girl at NBC’s Today’
top post @ redstate
O/T Is there an FDL Act Blue web page? If so how do I access it?
Steve
before the Presidential event in Charlotte/Mecklenburg took place today, I had heard that the crowd would be quite unscreened coz of the desperation to give out tickets … I knew there’d be problems for the Preznit when he gave a ringing declaration of why he went to War and only half the visible audience behind him applauded…
Ghostman 117:
“it’s a felony to even make a “false statement†to an FBI agent. Did Bush make false statements to Fitz & FBI agents?”
It wasn’t a false statement, because that would make it illegal, and he IS the law, he can do no wrong Case closed.
*ilson46201 @ 6:53 pm (#77) – Hmmm. 21 out of 49 Senate Democrats voted Nay. 128 out of 212 voted Nay. A bit more than a handful, but a minority in one house and an unimpressive majority in the other.
†On some positions, cowardice asks the question is it safe, expediency asks the question is it politic, vanity asks the question is it popular, conscience asks the question is it right. And there comes a time when we must take a position that is neither safe nor politic nor popular, but we must take it because conscience tells us it is right.â€
You never go wrong doing the right thing.
Could it be that ccmask is Fitz and his prediction about Bush having a reeeeaaaally bad day on April 15 has (gasp!oh please oh pleaes oh please)a basis in reality? Man, if Rove and two “unindicted co-conspirators” get Fitzed, it’s all over but us trying to drag them screaming out of the picture (I wish).
zennurse– denial is all they have left. classic collective cognitive dissonance.
There was a man in the audience behind Bush who openly scoffed at alot of what he said.
libopinion @121
Now that is what I am talking about. Little by little, the shit hits the fan and the lies come home to roost.
I don’t think they can keep track of the lies anymore.
Slooooow……
Jane, FYI, right after the censure, you asked us all to email our Senators to support it. I emailed Herb Kohl. I finally heard back today. It was a mealy mouthed response: “This resolution has been referred to the Judiciary
Committee, of which I am a member. An initial hearing on censure was held on March 31, 2006. In addition, the Committee is conducting other hearings in the broader issue of the NSA warrantless surveillance program. I remain committed to this process, and to hearing both sides of the issue. It would be inappropriate for me to make premature judgments, but I will listen carefully as this process unfolds and the investigation into the Administration’s actions moves forward.”
I cannot comprehend why 74% of Republicans would still support Bush.
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007302.php
Clinton and Monica was a little different from Bush & Cheney (now that’s a couple) ending democracy and freedom.
steve — here’s our actblue page
Impeachment now
There was a comment earlier that the guy in the audience was a member of MoveOn. Maybe linked to Kos.
“Who in their right mind is making the argument that this President is not deserving of censure?”
at this point in time, I would make the case that censure is inappropriate. Censure might have been appropriate if the bushliar-criminal admitted that his illegal activity was wrong and that he would work with Congress to make any changes necessary to make his program legal. But instead, the bushliar-criminal is all, and nothing but hubris, defiantly claiming his mantle as King, not POTUS.
For such a situation, censure is too small a response. The bushliar-criminal has declared war on the Constitution and by extention the Congress and the American people. The only appropriate response in such a situation is impeachment, conviction, and imprisonment.
.
And before a President ever commits troops, you got to try diplomacy at all costs. I’m going to say to you what I said before, putting those kids in harm’s way is a tough, difficult decision. And nobody should ever want to do it, because I understand fully the consequences of the decision. And so as I told you, I went to the diplomatic route. I was hoping that when the world spoke with that one voice at the United Nations Security Council, Saddam Hussein would see the reason of the free world. But he didn’t.
I felt all along the decision was his to make. He said — the world said, disclose, disarm. In the meantime, I want you to remember, he was deceiving inspectors. It’s a logical question to ask: Why would somebody want to deceive inspectors? I also told you earlier that when America speaks, we got to mean what we said. I meant what we said when we embraced that resolution that said disclose, disarm, or face serious consequences. Words mean something in this world if you’re trying to protect the American people.
From Clusterfuck’s speech today- anyone here speak Clusterfuck? What the hell is he saying?
When Feingold first announced on that Sunday that he would introduce his Censure Resolution, several of us commented here that this was not only morally/legally warranted but also politically astute. While there didn’t seem much hope that the Resolution could ever pass in the Republican Senate, the hope was that if it got enough interest, it would result in public hearings and much press coverage, thus forcing more information about the reach of the NSA program and its violation of FISA into the public conscious.
In other words, the value did not depend on its actual passage; rather, “success” would occur merely from its exposure and the attention it brought to the broader scope of the Administration’s lawlessness.
IMO, we are in danger of forgetting this earlier perspective. The danger is not so much that too few will support censure, but that too few will support the continued coverage and investigation of the NSA program and other lawlessness. I use the word “investigation” deliberately, though I know it is disfavored here.
Glen’s post is, when parsed logically, an argument for further investigation, not of whether Bush violated the law (FISA) — that is not in doubt — but to what extent. How many times? How many people? Innocent people? Political targets? US to US? These factual questions do not go to whether the FISA was violated; but they are relevant in deciding the appropriate punishment. After all, we do have penality phases of trials, once guilt has been established.
Whether the penalty is political (censure, or having your Party lose the next election) or legal (provide the evidence to convince upon impeachment) — well those things rest on the evidence yet to come.
But we need to remember that for now, the political benefit of keeping this issue going is what we hoped for in the beginning — not because the legal issue wasn’t important, but because politics was the way to keep the moral and legal issues alive. And with Gonzalez’ admissions today, that may now be easier to achieve.
C SPAN2 Right Now
Sensenbrenner/Conyers ripping Abu NOW!
zennurse @ 7:07 pm (#95) – (Please forgive such mixed metaphors)
I think what you’re trying to say is a stitch in time could save the whole nine yards. Of course, I might not have both oars in the water as I sail up that legendary stream.
Certainly agree that the issue of Clusterfuck breaking the law needs to be kept alive. Pushing for investigation is the best avenue.
thanks, cbl
Here’s what we said about the politics and strategy of censure at the beginning (though the comments are lost at Haloscan). Glenn Greenwald linked to this post and associated himself with all of it:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..osal-dots/
99 seesdifferent says:
April 6th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
With all the brouhaha about leaking, we are missing the real point.
Bush was, according to Jason Leopold today, interviewed by federal investigators, and told them that he knew nothing of an effort to discredit Wilson. If, in fact, evidence surfaces that Bush DID know of such an effort, then he has committed a felony under USC 18 section 1001, and he should be impeached.
seesdifferent – I don’t feel this is “the real point”. I feel this is simply another criminal charge thrown on the ever-building heap of charges against Bush. But this is certainly a significant charge – that I’ll agree with.
Nice photo of Fitz. He looks mighty Presidential.
I’m no sartorial expert but that suit looks rather more expensive than the others I’ve seen him in.
Maybe he’s invested in a new wardrobe for the next White House indictment press conf.
Clusterfuck shouldn’t be wounded- he should be KILLED politically- taking both houses is the way to do it- if effectively nuetralizes him for his last two years. Do it!
In the summer of 1973, I spent much of my time watching Senator Sam Ervin’s Senate Watergate Committee hearings. Nixon came to Kansas City that summer to stand in front of the federal building downtown and announce he was appointing Clarence Kelley, the Kansas City police chief, to be head of the FBI. (I think Patrick Gray, or one of Nixon’s other cronies, had just resigned due to his impending implication in the Watergate coverup). A couple of my friends came to town, and convinced me to go downtown to protest Nixon’s existence. I made a large cardboard sign that said, “IMPEACH NIXON.” It was a bit early to be saying that; some people no doubt found the sign shocking. Of course I had no proof that Nixon had committed an imppeachable offense; it was more a statement of faith and belief. Faith in my assessment of Nixon’s character, and belief in John Dean’s testimony. As we were walking from our parked car to the site of Nixon’s speech, his motorcade came whizzing down the street. I held up my sign. I don’t know which side of the car Nixon was sitting on, but whoever was on the side facing me would have clearly seen my sign. That felt good. It would be more than a year before he would resign.
I feel that today’s revelation of Libby’s testimony about Bush authorizing leaks of classified information is similar to John Dean’s testimony in 1973. The beginning of the end. One can hope. That is why I say,
Impeachment Now
republicans survived Nixon because they knew when to cut bait, take their lumps, and live to fight another day. the case for impeachment and conviction of the bushliar-criminal is becoming overwhelming. are today’s republicans as shrewd as the bretheren of the prior generation?
.
dc is a cesspool. that’s fact #1. if you don’t kiss up, you won’t have a job for very long- regardless if you’re whore, fellating shill, or politician. lobbyists rule all, and have no loyalty. politicians are front men/women, who aspire to a final big pay off or a good lobbying career after office. none of them care about you or your concerns.
there probably were many good, honest dems and repubs in DC, at the start of those careers. True Belivers, People Who Would Make a Difference, etc. people who would not be corrupted. but from day one on the job, every pol learns early on: raise money or die. the money doesn’t come without compromise. only the meek, milquetoast, and silent survive.
so our “firebrand” leaders like nancy give us the Kos diary example of “fighting.” and lieberman is “popular.” and hillary is disappointing. and little gets opposed. and the bushies roll on.
you, good readers, are the new leadership. mark my words: few will do more than a few years in a cushy fed pen for all this, and certainly not bush or cheney. all those billions given over to carlyle and halliburton buy at least the world’s best legal representation. i think they’ve bought a great deal more. if you count on the current dem leadership to save you from a banana republic future, you’ll be serving daquiris to your corporate masters before you’ll be enjoying representative law-bound democracy again.
I have a modest proposal. Let’s get off the censure issue- it doesn’t seem to be going anywhere- let’s figure out how to pull Clusterfuck’s political balls off.
*ilson46201 April 6th, 2006 at 7:29 pm:
thanks for information that some of audience was unscreened. They’re having trouble givin away tickets, huh? In Charlotte? And that isn’t the People’s Republic of NC around Research Triangle country (is it?). So, I still think it means trouble, any way you slice it.
This stuff is getting so weird, I do hope Bush comes to whatever senses he might have left. If he did, he’d have to do a housecleaning that would wipe out the neocons, and admit to a heap ‘o stuff. So I’m not worried that it would wreck the Dem’s chances in the next election. I can say that without much fear of being attacked as a troll here, since the chances of that happening are about what? Nine below zero, or something like that? Out, in the freezing rain?
It’s called blogroots motherfuckers, and the fifty state strategy.
They must decrease, and we must increase. It’s hard to be patient, but look at the last few weeks, let alone the last year and a half. Take heart.
Hands up everyone who’s totally blogcrushed out on Jane.
Bush is ALWAYS under oath. He swore to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution 24/7. There is none of this “he wasn’t under oath” BS.
and now on Anderson Cooper, we have “Escaping Polygamy”…jeebus christmas, man – who gives a crap?! aren’t there any missing blondes that we can hear about? that’s the news that ‘muricans want – c’mon!
*ilson,
Mecklenburg County (where Charlotte is) has gone blue. Amazing, considering it’s a big banking town.
NC is in play, y’all.
chicago dyke-and every time you buy a coffee or donut at a Dunkin Donuts, you are contributing to the Carlyle group and the bush-cheney defense fund.
rwcole: Our assessment differs from yours.
We think talking about censure – keeping it “out there” – does castrate Bush.
The post I linked from Christy (above) from back when the censure resolution first surfaced still holds up on this issue. You may not agree with the strategy, but that’s the view many of us adopt, and not just here at FDL.
Preznit should be lashed to a student desk with Magna Carta in front of him and forced to read it out loud, over and over, until he can explain it properly to the People who pay his salary and give him free rent.
107 marky says:
April 6th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Bush was not under oath. He does that when he wants to fib
marky – don’t give up hope. I read that as long as there were at least 2 government attorneys or investigators present when Bush was interviewed (and there were at LEAST 2, 3 I think), Bush could be charged with “making a false statement”. Not perjury, which requires being under oath, but “making a false statement”, which indicates NOT under oath. Probably not as severe as perjury, but I’m sure a pissed off prosecutor can use it to get a good whack at somebody.
If Christine is reading this, perhaps she could give her professional opinion.
This war is not going to be won or lost in Washington DC. It’s going to be won in 16 congressional disctricts spread out around the country. It’s going to be won by people who write checks they can’t afford- attending meetings that they don’t have time for- knocking on doors when they don’t like doing it- driving folks to the polls on election day. It’s going to be won by ordinary citizens who stand up and say “NO MORE”. Do it!
Magna Carta? fuck that ancient shit! the Preznit needs to read the Bill of Rights or is that too pre-9/11 for him ?
rwcole April 6th, 2006 at 7:49 pm:
I’m afeared of driving you to likker again tonight by my Dem bashing. But… I think that the censure motion is a great platform to start effectively pulling both GWB’s and Congresses, um… popularity down, regardless of whether it is a good idea for censure to come to a vote.
Do you have any good ideas that a responsible cautious Dem might be willing to try?
111 Evil Parallel Universe says:
April 6th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Marky – I think lying to a federal official while not under oath gets you a false statement charge, while lying under oath would be perjury. Anyone feel free to correct me.
Evil – dang, you beat me to it!
Pacha- That’s fine- I have never claimed to be infallible on the issue- but hell- it’s time to get on to doing something.
Thanks Cujo, I feel better!
I missed it!!! but I’m hearing some nasty stuff about the US Atty in San Diego. Can’t wait to hear the response. Blahblahblah
Censure would be good. Impeachment would be best. Principles are essential and standing for beliefs and what’s right and wrong are critical. That’s what makes a statesman. Regardless of political party. The Republicans are almost devoid of statesmen, and the Democrats are mostly just ordinary pols and cowards who are mostly compliant non-wave makers obsessed with re-election. I am a life long Democrat but I’m so weary of holding my nose and voting for the Dems.
Dave in Livonia @ 7:52 pm – I’ve always been partial to shark attack stories. Can’t remember the last time we had a good one. I think the shark had to attack a pretty blonde girl to make the news. I’d settle for a killer whale story, but we don’t even get those. Curse all you liberal environmentalists and your pro-cetecean propoganda!
120 Pachacutec says:
April 6th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
clueless: you can’t but I can edit. I wanted your permission first, but now it’s done.
Cheers!
Thanks!
Wes–No I don’t see how to make a winner out of this issue. If dems press it- goopers will say “OK- let’s have a vote” and that will be the end of it as far as I can see.
Do you have an idea about how to make it fly?
Hey, i know lying to a federal officer is a crime, but I’m sure Bush felt safter not under oath lying his ass off
mommybrain (130)
Could it be that ccmask is Fitz and his prediction about Bush having a reeeeaaaally bad day on April 15 has
i thought that last night (y’all’s this morning) when it was just hitting the wires. But then i thought: Naaaah…
There’s a diary up at Daily Kos by someone claiming to have spoken with Harry Taylor. (hmm. Preview acting up for me again. Hope this works.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/21185/97610
Our country is so badly broken right now, the only thing that can save it is the resignation of President Bush. Americans can be a very forgiving group, but we expect people to own up to what they did and apologize.
Kerry has been making the rounds, talking about how the Iraqis haven’t been serious about making a government that works. Why should they? They look at us and see lawbreakers who are above the law. They are merely following our example.
If Bush, Cheney and that whole crew resigned, took responsibility for what they did and ask that the country come together to get things going again, the country would. Bush and Cheney would be in disgrace for a while, but it would be a short while. We don’t need any Oprah moments, but if they resigned, it could only help the situation in Iraq.
-
Charlotte’s in the mid-western part of NC, home of Bank of America — but I thought that last night B.Muse/Southern Dem mentioned that his mom, an officeholder in the area, was offered ticket(s) for W’s party today, and that they were hard to give away to reliable folks. I also read that HARRY TAYLOR (hero) was a member of the World Affairs Council of Charlotte and was amazed to be invited, and so asked his question of the Preznit.
Someone suggested earlier today that HARRY TAYLOR be invited to the fdl breakfast at YearlyKos. I thought that was a great idea.
you guys are missing the best option: he resigns, and THEN is impeached so he can be tried and connvicted
rw cole 153–
I would argue that bush’s political balls have already been torn off. This town meeting crap is essentially bush trying to distract from that. he’s basically running around, flapping his arms in an effort to deflect our gaze from his horrible bleeding scrotum. If you look at his scrotum, the terrorists win!
He’s at 30 something JAR–a scant 10 points or less above Nixon getting on the helicopter, and the impeachment hasn’t even begun. Political balls–gone.
Well, on this issue I seem to be aligned with Mr. rwcole, and in a distinct minority! (chuckle)…but I’ll DISAGREE on his thought to not talk about censure. However, as right as the cause may be, I think our Democratic leadership better improves chances this November by offering a reasonable plan on Iraq. (but that’s another discussion!)
On censure, oh how I wish I felt a groundswell of Americans to support it. But I don’t, at least not yet. I admire how fervent many of you are, and encourage discussion. Many of you quote MLK, and argue on principles…and great writings are out there about all that. To be a contrarian, ever study that famous battle known as “The Charge Of The Light Brigade”? What happened to those guys, anyway? I’ll just hope you guys who advocate “censure now” are right sooner than my hesitation is wrong! Ghostman
TDS: Stewart + tin foil = Strange but funny
marky says:
April 6th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
and then is tried for war crimes, etc at the Hague, because our next President (Gore, Feingold) will sign on to be a member of the International Court of Justice and the kyoto treaty, etc.
Well, heck, OK, I’m willing to forget the damn censure. How about political stunts? How about teach ins? How about introducing a resolution, or one of those ’statement of the sense of Congress” thingees, saying that Bush can’t ignore the law. Seems to me there is a whole bunch of things that the Dems can do. As I said, I think anything is better than nothing, which is what we got now. Anyone have any concrete ideas.
I guess mine is that if the Dems are too chicken for censure, then they should introduce a resolution as mentioned above, and create some buzz and start a public debate about it.
PS: I heart the FDL bosses too. Redd-Hedd reminds me of my Cub Scout den mother from long ago, and I have a crush on her. I am worried that they are always at the computer. Some one remind them to eat and sleep and get out, and other non-geek stuff.
Marky–you can’t impeach him if he resigns- you can only impeach him if he’s pres.
well he can be indicted if he resigns in disgrace…
cujo 170
I saw a killer whale attack somebody once. Them suckers are scary.
Jane:
PHyyyysssssssss. That’s a loud, very loud, whistle and a standing ovation.
169~let the Dems know. I continually send back their requests in the mail with notes written across the donation forms. And when the DSCC sends me requests in my e-mail I wrote back to them. On Monday I responded to a request saying that I was supporting Ned Lamont and Francine Busby as well as others that I felt were strong and responsive. I received a response within moments saying they understood my frustration and they hoped that if/when the Dems took back the Congress, I would be able to support the DSCC again. I guess I’m not the only one who is objecting. Why else would they have a reply at the ready?
Sheila Jackson Lee talking to Abu. Using Watergate
Love her hair
Wes–The best way- it seems to me- is a concerted campaign- dems can hit the talk show circuit- write op ed pieces and keep screaming at the top of their lungs for an investigation. They can use people who are in safe districts to deliver the message- and it will take at least two months to show any results. Right now americans don’t have the faintest fuckin idea what the ISSUE is- and it will take “education” to bring them up to speed.
RevDeb–Thank you so much for that comment.
I have been thinking about this and need to ask. What are the Democrats hoping to gain from dragging their heels? Is there something in this for them, do they secretly approve of all this? What?
For example, Pelosi goes through the motions of introducing a Resolution to investigate Tom Delay and yet apparently has never even filed a complaint with the House Ethics Committee, which of course would only get as far as the circular file, but she didn’t even make the effort. Why?
Psycholologically speaking, people indulge in behaviors that produce some reward, sometimes even if it is a negative reward, you know, ‘cold pricklies,” as opposed to “Warm Fuzzies.’
I think we are overlooking something or missing something here. I think we need to explore more closely what it is that all these politicians on both sides are getting out this whole mess that makes is worth taking political hit .
Bush/Libby leak on CNN now–God, I so want to plaster a pie into Abu Gonzo’s face.
wesgpc: No, we press the attack, keep up the drumbeat. Changing strategies all the time is folly.
The censure story was always destined to move in fits and starts, with semi-dormant perdiods. But it continues to fester for Bush and the Republicans.
Just because you can’t see the progress, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. I’m not trying to be glib, and I’m not a fantasist.
Our problem is, for us, 5 minutes is a news cycle. That distorts our perceptions. But if you step back, every week of this year has been worse than the one preceding it for this president for months, and the things we shout about here find their way to the surface on about more and more quickly, lately.
We’re pushing the leading edges of what later becomes conventional wisdom. Hang in there.
Words up!
neurophius-
that would be a waste of a perfectly good pie. I’d like to see somebody jam an indictment into his face.
169 Oklahoma kiddo says:
April 6th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Censure would be good. Impeachment would be best.
I think Censure should be the Pre-Impeachment step. If the Censure passes, Bush is wounded and bloody. That’s when sharks like to attack. It would only be a matter of time ’til impeachment. Or resignations in lieu thereof!
RWCOLE,
I’m pretty sure that a president can be impeached after leaving office. I think this is still necessary if he is to be charged for crimes committed while in office.
Jane, awesome post.
Bushit is still a dangerous little asp. Even with his pol numbers in freefall, his prosthetic brain Rovesputin, whose MO is to attack your opponents strengths when you’re down, probably is seriously considering a pre-emptive attack on Iran as Bushit Inc. ace in the hole. You can only hope there are a few good men in command positions left in the Pentagon who simply will not follow those kind of orders from an Ass-Clowns-Are-US White House.
rwcole –
we have already benefitted from Feingold’s effort. The issue was dead, killed in the Senate. But since Fingold’s actions, there has been repeated attention to this issue for the last three weeks. It keeps getting more exposure. Today, there’s a hearing of the House Committee, and Gonzalez is having to answer tough questions about this, question that arose because of answers Gonzalez gave to the Senate, because the Judicary Committee was forced to hold a hearing that wouldn’t otherwise have occurred. People are become more edcuated, and asking more questions, and Gonzalez is being exposed as evasive. And if the Republicans did manage to kill this, that’s just one more item to add to the Rubber Stamp list of transgressions next Fall. You build this one day at a time.
Ghostman — don’t worry about that battle. This is not six hundred riding into the valley of death. In the end, Feingold, and the few who stood with him, will still be alive and politically stronger. They will be seen as prescient and courageous. And they will be seen as leaders.
Sheila Lee Jackson comapared Abu to Archibald Cox
Blah blah oversight blah blah when asked about whether he could say there had been no domestic or political wiretapping, “can’t guarantee mistakes won’t be made” doesn’t answer, same stuff as at the Senate
cleter @ 8:11 pm (#186) – Is that the video that happened at one of those “Sea World” type places? I seem to remember that the woman (who I think was a trainer) died in that one.
I think one of the things about these attacks that are so scary is that it’s really not our element, it’s the fish’s (or whale’s). We can’t see well underwater, and we certainly aren’t anywhere near as maneuverable as they are.
Anyhow, at the risk of sounding morbid, not to mention OT …
marky 198-
I respectfully disagree. I think only a sitting president can be impeached. Ex-presidents can go through the regular criminal justice system, which was why Ford pardoned Nixon. A pardon can’t be granted for an impeachment, BTW.
178 marky says:
April 6th, 2006 at 8:02 pm
you guys are missing the best option: he resigns, and THEN is impeached so he can be tried and connvicted
What the fuck is the point of impeaching AFTER he resigns??? It’s not like an impeachment conviction could send him to jail. I suspect the better alternative is to have him resign and then have Fitz indict him. If that’s possible.
Debbie Schultz on CSPAN again with the same charts as the other night with “rubber stamps” Live
marky-
I don’t have a law book in front of me, but I believe impeachment only applies to public officials, not former public officials. In 1974, when Nixon resigned after the House committee voted articles of impeachment, the impeachment proceedings immediately ceased. Nixon could have been indicted at that point, and there was talk of that, but Ford pardoned him.
194: now THAT I can agree with. I have a “pet theory” that the way out places (ummm…NOT being rude, but many mainstream folks would consider this site way out)…a theory that these places seem to be on the cutting edge of developments. But the general public takes a lot longer to catch up. I even believe this was so in the Clinton era…I recall that the “way out there” right wingers first trumpeted all this stuff about Clinton and his serial cheating…they were ignored for a long while, yet today the idea is now rather “mainstream”.
So, I think what I read here is cutting edge, but hopefully America will catch up. Ghostman
Cujo 359
Video, hell. I saw it live.
EPU’d New thread.
the thirty-something working group is awesome to behold.
On the NC speech: Gee, and this morning in the elevator, reading about it on the captive audience screen, two of us were wondering why he bothered going there to give his standard speech. (Maybe he wishes he hadn’t gone.)
On the Lampson-DeLay dustup: If DeLay has decided to drop out of the race, why did his supporters come out like that? Is there something else going on that we should know about? Because usually a dead campaign goes away; it doesn’t keep trying to get back into things.
well, i’d like a definitive opinion on that. I know what I have aread before, which doesn’t mean it was correct, of course. new comment client has killed my computer 3 times tonight. this is no good
“What the hell is it going to take before politicians stop cynically playing the percentages game and take a stand, like Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Tom Harkin and Pat Leahy to do the right thing?”
I think it is important to step back and look at the larger pattern of behavior going on here.
At every step the democrats have acted as if they were in basic agreement with the GOP agenda. And at every step it has been possible to know what was really going on by going with your first reaction, with ones intuition that assuming the worst was probably correct. And right you would have been every single time.
Why? Because Bush & company have consistantly lied and gamed the truth from the moment they took office. We know they have lied because they have told us, not directly, by what they have said, but indierctly, through what was not said. Bush, Cheney and the rest always parse their words carefully just like every liar does and we have all known it, if not consciously then sub-consciously.
If the above is true then ask yourself… why do the democrats act like they are in league with Bush? Answer: because they are.
You know it’s true, you just don’t want to believe it. Just like you don’t want to believe that we deliberately torture, or wiretap our own people, or that we sent the death squads into Iraq (just like we did in Nicaragua). It’s really scary and gives me butterfly feeling iin my stomach. I don’t know how far down this rabbit hole goes. It would be so much better if I could believe in the fairy tales the media used to tell us but I can’t. We are waayyy over the rainbow by now and I forgot my ruby slippers.
Abu has a smirk that bugs me even more than Bush’s does, if that is possible. Especially when he is sitting there testifying to a Congressional committee and saying, in effect, Bush can do whatever he wants and there’s nothing you schmucks can do about it. Hell, maybe those are even his exact words.
CTMFA! Couldn’t they amend Feingold’s resolution to add Bush’s complicity in Plamegate? If Fitz has what Jason Leopold writes about, cripes, censure is a shoe-in when that information goes public. Let’s move on to impeachment of Bush and Cheney.
Kos is coming up on the Colbert Report…
I missed something today — what’s this Bugman/Lampson dustup, y’all? Gotta link?
210 MsAnnaNOLA says:
April 6th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
EPU’d New thread.
OT, but — what does “EPU” stand for? I’ve seen it used numerous times lately, but don’t know what it means. Any help out there?????
215 neurophius says:
April 6th, 2006 at 8:30 pm
Abu has a smirk that bugs me even more than Bush’s does, if that is possible. Especially when he is sitting there testifying to a Congressional committee and saying, in effect, Bush can do whatever he wants and there’s nothing you schmucks can do about it. Hell, maybe those are even his exact words.
Did he testify under oath today?
Clueless, it means what’s happening to you right now. It means you posted a comment after a new thread was opened up above, and people go to the new thread and don’t see your comment. Named after FDLer Evil Parallel Universe, who it has happened to a lot. See you on the new thread.
Patrick Fitzgerald is hot.
Now that this is getting more media attention, I think a lot more people — ones who hadn’t been paying attention — are going to get a lot more outraged. A LOT of people have started commenting about how this president feels that he is above the law, and that doesn’t play will with most people. And they’re starting to see it.
The link to today`s DeLay affair for TeddySanFran
“There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph. All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth.” – Richard Avedon
Abu was sworn in today…
linky
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01176.html
clueless 219
A regular here, named Evil Parallel Universe (EPU) had a knack for posting right as a new thread came up. To be EPU’d is to be abandoned on an old thread after a new thread comes up. We are, in fact, EPU’d right now.
To hell with censure, IMPEACH the bastard and throw him out
EPU’d – named after Evil Parallel Universe, it means posts that go up after you see that infamous “new thread” post, bc everyone jumps upstairs and your posts dont get read. On my rambling OTs, I like being EUPd.
Speaking of EPU, – “What’s more evil than lawyers?â€
Clients?
I have to wonder if Feingold is partly responsible for Sensenbrenner’s newfound Chairman-i-ness? Is he hearing from folks back in Wisconsin who are thinking Feingold is hanging tough and they want their Rep to show he’s get the good too/
I think we just saw history…Harry{the hero} just walked over and carefully told the preznit that he was buck naked,regardless what his clotheiers and court jesters,and such said.The presnit responce was a carefully crafted sack of propaganda[bullshit] BUT, if you watched his performance,it was strained,and He.was.scared.as was mentioned before..schoolyard bully stuff.They are slipping if the handlers think this letting bush be bush will rally the base..Mostly I think because he despises the poor,whitetrash fundi type that were subject to roves political manipulation.He is of the upper classes,and in his heart,cares not one whit for any who are not of the”haves,and the have mores”
and its starting to show…
One does not investigate ‘facts’. Facts need to be acknowledged. They can be clarified, but facts, by definition, are inarguable.
There’s no argument that the President did not follow FISA, and his authorizations violated it. That is a fact.
One can argue that FISA isn’t a Constitutional Law, or that Congress approved his violation. But the fact is that he ignored it.
What needs to be investigated is whether that action was justified or not. That’s an argument; but the fact that he ignored FISA is admitted already, and merits some formal acknowledgement.
Ignored FISA for close to FIVE YEARS.
ghostman… we are so far past the whites of their eyes phase, it is not even funny. this is not politics. the constitution is being dismantled.
you are either with us, or you have had your head up your butt for the past 5 years or you are one of them.
Your naivete is touching. Figuratively speaking, you are like a referee blowing his whistle and insisting that the players abide by the rules of the game when chaos has erupted and the mob has already invaded the playing field.
I don’t what to say, except that you’re trapped in an asymmetrical mode of thinking (a problem common amongst lawyers) where you expect the opposing party to play by the rules when, in fact, to them, the rules are what they say they are.
Much earlier on Kos, I posted a link to an article that describes rather well how a sound and democratic legal system was perverted to serve Pinochet in Chile.
This is, of course, to a lesser degree, what is happening in the United States.
I have several friends who fled Chile at the time, anticipating that if they didn’t, they might find themselves in unmarked graves; among the ones who didn’t leave were lawyers, because they thought the Law would protect them, not realizing that the Law is what men say it is.
I totally support your efforts to expose the meretriciousness of the Republicans, but I fear the problem is much bigger. Democracy, the Law, are part of Rousseau’s social contract. I’m not sure we have that anymore in the United States.
It may take far more turmoil than you think to reach a new contract.
Lupin 232 -
What a depressing and frightening thought.
My fear is that you may be right.The question is “are things bad enough to enough Americans that the turmoil will appear both neccessary and worthwhile?”
Second question — if now yet, then when? My own feeling is that it won’t happen until lifestyles, still far too comfortable, are threatened. Perhaps the vehicle for that is not crimes by politicians, by the coming home to roost of disastrous economic policies, whose full effects have yet to be felt.
P.S. I hope I’m wrong and we’ll wake up before then.
A couple of questions:
First off, my gut’s telling me that if the Democrats don’t make their stand now, if they don’t at LEAST support Feingold’s call for censure (if not initiate a call for impeachment based on the latest revelations about Bush’s apparent role in the NIA leak) they risk losing this ENTIRE ISSUE to the Republicans.
If this current situation is as serious for the President as it looks like it may well be, and the Republicans themselves decide to “cut bait”, as it were, and request that Bush and Cheney resign rather than face impeachment… while meanwhile the Democrats sit there and continue to hem and haw and consult their polls and drag their asses and “keep their powder dry” for a fight that they never truly intend to have happen… doesn’t that tend to hand the entire game over to the Republicans in that case? After all, if the Republicans (even out of political self-interest) end up being the ones who ultimately stand up and tell the President “No more!” then what does that leave the Democrats?
Second question: The e-mails that supposedly implicate Bush along with Cheney in the NIA leak… are they the same ones that somebody in the White House “suddenly found” and turned over to Fitzgerald along about the time Cheney shot his buddy in the face?
I’m getting more and more curious as to who exactly turned these e-mails in. I’d been under the impression that perhaps it was Rove or somebody close to Rove, figuring to create more reason to push for Cheney to step down.
But if these e-mails implicate Bush as well as Cheney, then it doesn’t sound like it was necessarily something that Rove would have turned over.
Was it perhaps Andy Card? And are we now maybe seeing exactly why he was suddenly encouraged to “spend more time with his family”?
It’s just a bit of late-night musing on my part, and it may well be that this has already been answered. If so, I apologize for rehashing it.
Lupin (232) wrote –
Democracy, the Law, are part of Rousseau’s social contract. I’m not sure we have that anymore in the United States.
It may take far more turmoil than you think to reach a new contract.
After the debacle of January 30, 2006, when 19 Democratic Senators collaborated with the Bush Administration to secure the nomination of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court, the road ahead has been pretty clear to me.
Ugly. Brutal. But clear.
The Democrats, as a party and a political organization, aren’t going to exploit the ever-widening spiral of uncovered criminality to unseat the usurper/President Bush.
We are going to go through a decade or three of increasingly dictatorial government in Washington, consequent to a Constitution that is no longer a document in force, but merely a scrap of paper. No more binding upon the government of the United States than the 1936 Constitution was upon the government of the U.S.S.R..
The middle class will be crushed out of existence.
At some unpredictable point and for a reason most likely transient and trivial under better circumstances, a breaking point will be reached and exceeded. Something will snap.
And then the spillage of blood will be enough to overflow all of the storm drains. Think 1793-1794.
The immediate consequence of that will be some combination of “man on horseback” and quasi-totalitarian “protectorate”, precise mixture unguessable.
But the Republic will be done. If I am right about this, it’s finished already.
Which is why I’m breaking with my custom and posting this under a pseudonym.
Hopefully, by the time the finale is thrashed out, I myself will be either dead or fled. You could make book, if you knew me and could verify, that my future job searches will be concentrated to the north of the border with Canada. When I leave, I won’t come back. Because there will be nothing to come back to.
Too many good comments keeping me up wayyy too late… So much news! so little time… 8(
For the hopeless, disheartened on this list, a couple recommendations:
1. Read Rep. Henry Waxman’s letter to the WH, dated Apr 6, 2006, which is clever, eloquent, and makes absolutely clear that there seem to be questionable actions at the WH. Read it and marvel at clear prose, synthesized issues. Available via TalkingPointsMemo.
2. Read the actual TEXT of Fitz’s court docs, timestamped 11:59 Apr 5, 2006, Incisive, droll, instructive, informative, and — for those who favor justice, clear-thinking, and superb writing, an absolute treat. Available via WaPo or NYT or FDL sites.
3. A ‘must see’ for those who have been hopeless and discouraged (as I’ve been). The NYT revamped their website (nicely, IMHO).
View this video link at the “Libby Leaks” NYT article: http://video.on.nytimes.com/if…..4834103205
Yes, it’s a hellish long URL, but worth a view!
Sanger narrates the piece; images of Libby, Bush, phony WMD are intercut with Sanger explaining the significance of Fitz’s latest court documents, and how they bring Bush into the narrative of this ongoing series of revelations. Sanger summarizes the connections between: Libby, Bush, weapons.
If this video gets more viewership, a whole lot more Americans will start to connect dots about the essential elements of PlameGate.
Expect the BuShCo Noise Machine to go ballistic over these NYT pieces, because if I were Karl Rove, they’d scare the shit out of me.
It’s also good to see the major papers making PDFs of the genuine court documents available – both because it makes their articles more credible, and also because they’re interesting.
I don’t think Watergate is a good template for what’s going to happen — this is a new environment, and the 20-somethings that I know really don’t grasp W’Gate, so they don’t recognize parallels; therefore, this doesn’t resonate with them. Yet.
This PlameGate needs to be the civics lesson for that generation. These video clips might help.
the video link you just posted are movie trailors
I woke up this morning at 5 with this simple idea. Everyone who supports censure should send $1 to Russ Feingold’s office. One dollar = one vote. A simple way to send a message of support to Russ and a message of where ‘the people’ stand to the rest of the Democrats in Washington. Remember that court room scene in “Miracle on 34th Street” where the defense has the Post Office carry in all the mail bags full of letters to Santa. Maybe the blogosphere can send an avalanche of mail bags to Washington to get our message out. Using Paypal just wouldn’t have the visual effect that actual physical letters with dollar bills in them would!
Murray Waas at National Journal deserves a Pulitzer for his articles this week alone. But I haven’t seen him interviewed yet on any cables news shows I watch. He was on Democracy Now this morning. This guy has a knack for bringing clarity to a very complicated story.
Ms. Hamsher:
Thank You!!
Abu was sworn in today…
Yeah, wait until “Torture Memo” Gonzalez becomes “Law Suit Le Haague Torture” Gonzalez! The next 30 years will be devoted to cleaning up these guys’ messes if we want to get the country back on the right track.
Really…30 years…why can’t Bush call off all elections for the next 30 years (you know National Security reasons…â€I mean how can you trust an electorate that’s tolerated all my horse-shit in the past five years) he could appoint himself Emperor, with a clear line of succession, you know past the baton onto the twins “Emperettesâ€, you know when they’ve finally mastered “My Pet Goatâ€â€¦I mean Abu Alberto Spier Gonzales could work this all out…
Standing up and stating the obvious– that the President not only broke the law, and broke it repeatedly, but has in fact ADMITTED that he has broken the law repeatedly– is both right politically and just plain right, period. WHEN are the so-called leaders of the Democratic party going to realize this??? It is enough to make me almost wish the Democrats completely crater in the fall elections, so we can have a real party built by 2008 to challenge the lawless Republicans. Of course we need to investigate, but it is simply pathetic to say we don’t know enough to censure (or hell, IMPEACH) the President.
And Marrack, based upon the President’s asserted authority, I can see no logical reason why he could not suspend elections until further notice, as long as he said it was in the interests of national security to do so. Someone should ask the AG about that today. Of course, he would refuse to answer because it is a hypothetical. Scary shit.
The common misunderstanding, particularly among the left, is that censure is the end game. It is not. It is a political tool to advance the debate in a drection we want to take it.
Censure isn’t going to pass in this congress. Censuring the president isn’t the resolution’s primary goal. It was introduced right after the intelligence committee buried its hearings, but before hte judiary committee did the same thing. It did its job of blocking the Republicans from killing the NSA spying issue. It would have done its job MUCH BETTER if Democrats had lined up behind Feingold’s resolution.
That Democrats did not support the resolution is either a case of rank cowardice or polticial incompetence, or both.
I heard the term “bad faith” mentioned quite a bit at the the Censure hearing, Graham used it to differentiate NSA spying from Lewinsky and Watergate, Spector even closed with it.
I think our side needs to build a good case that the President and his minions knowingly violated the law, and take that legal defense away from them.