Patrick Fitzgerald revealed a very damning bit of information regarding the President today and it seems to be having a profound effect in both the political sphere and the media. It happened on the same day that Alberto Gonzales went up to Capitol Hill and suggested that the President believes he has the legal authority to ignore FISA and tap domestic-only calls.
Says mcjoan:
He has unapologetically admitted to flouting FISA. He has penned signing statements to legislation stating that he won't comply with it if he doesn't want to. He has authorized leaking of classified information for purely political purposes. And now he sends his toady to the Hill to tell Congress he'll happily violate the Constitution.
Who in their right mind is making the argument that this President is not deserving of censure?
Apparently a lot of people, many of whom have "D"s next to their name. Nancy Pelosi is but one of them, but she did it this morning over at Kos:
I am deeply concerned by the President's justification for his domestic wire tapping program and the Administration's unwillingness to provide details of the program to members of the intelligence committee. Senator Feingold's complaints served to highlight some critical issues about the program and the lack of accountability in the Bush Administration. This is a serious matter and all of the facts about the surveillance program must be fully investigated before we start talking about punitive action.
I took issue with this over at Kos because I do not think the reality of the situation is getting through to our political leaders. Leaving aside for a minute that no serious investigation in a GOP-dominated congress is possible, and that most of the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee boycotted the investigative hearings into this matter only last week. It's beside the point. As Glenn Greenwald has stated over and over, there is no question that the President of the United States broke the law:
MYTH/EXCUSE NUMBER ONE: An investigation is needed before it can be known whether the President broke the law.
This has become the favored weapon of evasion for most Democratic Senators. Most who have refused to take a position on the Feingold Resolution have used the excuse that there has to be a full investigation before they can know if censure is appropriate. We have heard this excuse from, among many others, Senators Salazar, Stabenow, Bingaman, Levin and Dodd. That is just a small sampling of the list of Democrats who have claimed not to be able to take a position on the Feingold Resolution until an "investigation" is conducted.Bush supporters have also been peddling this same myth. In his angry and rather uncontrolled rant this weekend on Chris Wallace's show, Brit Hume proclaimed that it was somehow outrageous for Senators such as Feingold and Tom Harkin to attack the illegality of Bush's warrantless eavesdropping when they "have not even been briefed on the program" -- as though we do not yet know enough about the program in order to determine whether it is illegal.
This excuse for not taking a position on censure is not only false, but also outright illogical on its face. There are two distinct and independent issues raised by the NSA scandal:
ISSUE 1: Did the President break the law when he ordered warrantless eavesdropping on Americans?
ISSUE 2: What was the scope and extent of the President's secret eavesdropping? Did the warrantless eavesdropping include only international calls, as he claims, or purely domestic calls as well? Were only suspected Al Qaeda members eavesdropped, on as he claims, or did the eavesdropping extend beyond that? How was it determined who would be eavesdropped on? And what was done with the information?
These issues are separate and distinct. Issue 1 is what Feingold's Censure Resolution concerns. It is the "Illegality Question," i.e., whether the President broke the law when ordering warrantless eavesdropping on Americans. Issue 2 is the "Abuse Question," i.e., whether the President abused the eavesdropping powers he secretly exercised in violation of the law by, for instance, eavesdropping on Americans who have nothing to do with Al Qaeda or eavesdropping beyond the scope what he has claimed.
It is unquestionably true that an investigation is needed - urgently needed - in order to learn the answers to the questions relating to Issue 2. We do not know the scope and extent of the President's warrantless eavesdropping precisely because he eavesdropped in secret in violation of the law, rather than with judicial oversight. That is why it is so inexcusable that all of the Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee voted against Sen. Rockefeller's motion to conduct an investigation to find out the answers to these questions.
But in stark contrast to Issue 2, all the facts necessary to know the answer to Issue 1 are already disclosed, are publicly available, and have been admitted by the Administration. Therefore, while an investigation into Issue 2 is imperative, all of the facts relevant to the question of whether the President broke the law (the only issue raised by the Feingold Resolution) are already known, and for that reason it is illogical to claim that an investigation is needed before that question can be answered. Put simply, we don't know the scope and extent of the President's illegal eavesdropping, but we do know that the eavesdropping he ordered was illegal.
Under FISA, it is a criminal offense to eavesdrop on Americans without the oversight and approval of the FISA court. Section 1809 of FISA expressly provides that "[a] person is guilty of an offense if he intentionally - (1) engages in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute. . . ." And Section 2511(2)(f) provides that FISA "shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance . . . may be conducted." Thus, a person has broken the law if -- as the President admits he did -- he orders eavesdropping on Americans without complying with the warrant requirements of the statute. Period.
The Administration admits that it did just that -- that the President ordered exactly the warrantless eavesdropping which FISA makes it a criminal offense to engage in. The Administration does not deny this fact. They admit that the eavesdropping they engaged in is exactly the eavesdropping for which FISA requires judicial approval, but defend themselves only by claiming that they had the legal right to engage in this eavesdropping without complying with the law. Here is Alberto Gonzales making this precise admission at his December 19, 2005 press briefing with Gen. Hayden:
Now, in terms of legal authorities, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act provides -- requires a court order before engaging in this kind of surveillance that I've just discussed and the President announced on Saturday, unless there is somehow -- there is -- unless otherwise authorized by statute or by Congress. That's what the law requires.
That is Gonzales admitting that the warrantless eavesdropping they engaged in is the type for which FISA requires judicial approval. By definition, there is no investigation needed to determine whether the Administration engaged in warrantless eavesdropping prohibited by FISA because that fact is not in dispute.
In defending itself, the Administration is offering only legal arguments -- not factual disputes -- as to why it had the right to eavesdrop without complying with the law (namely, that the President has inherent authority to eavesdrop even if the law prohibits it, and that Congress gave him implicit permission to eavesdropping outside of FISA when it enacted the AUMF). But the Administration is not denying -- and has never denied -- the fact that it engaged in the very warrantless eavesdropping covered by FISA.
Thus, no investigation could even conceivably shed further light on the question of whether the President broke the law. We know he did that. The sole question which Senators have to answer is what they think the consequences ought to be, if any, for a President to order eavesdropping on Americans citizens which Americans, through their Congress, prohibited by law.
An investigation cannot answer the question as to whether U.S. Senators ought to take a stand against deliberate and ongoing lawbreaking by a President. Only U.S. Senators can answer that question, and they already have all the facts that are relevant to that question already before them. Claiming that they need further "investigation" before taking a position is nothing short of an abdication of their responsibilities, an obvious tactic for avoiding the question of whether they oppose lawbreaking by the President.
I do not know what language we are going to have to begin speaking before this gets heard. The President broke the law. It's not open for debate. They've admitted it. Today we learn that the President authorized the leaking of classified information for nothing more than political gain while the American public could not be told about serious intelligence community doubts as to the existence of WMDs contained in that same information.
What the hell is it going to take before politicians stop cynically playing the percentages game and take a stand, like Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Tom Harkin and Pat Leahy to do the right thing?
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Fitz ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out later !
Amen, Jane. Amen.
The Man Himself
What’s it gonna take? Once upon a time [probably apocryphal] Laura jerked his chain…too bad she’s Laurevita now.
There is no honor in bearing false witness.
There is no honor in ends justifying means.
There is no honor in this White House.
Having a little fangirl moment here. I’ll be better soon.
Go Jane.
I just read Pelosi’s diary and I thought what a crock of bull in reference to her position on censure.
censure sure makes sense.
WRT the guy who spoke against Bush today.
There is a recc’d diary on it at Kos and in the diary there is this comment http://www.dailykos.com/commen.....0764/29#29
Harry had a ticket because… (1+ / 0-)
Recommended by:MrSandman
he is a member of the sponsoring organization (World Affairs Council). He attended because he was hoping for the opportunity to speak his mind to the president.
Check out my previous post in this diary…Harry is a member of my MoveOn team. Not even close to a “Republican Insider”.
We are the people we are looking for.
by working for change on Thu Apr 06, 2006 at 06:27:33 PM EST
Hope this helps. Gotta run.
fer fucks sake. wake the fuck up already. were bleeding in here.
Seems to me I saw some polls when Feingold first brought out the censure resolution that showed 60% of Democrats for the resolution, and a bare majority of all voters for. Why doesn’t this make a difference with the supposed Democratic leaders?
Ah…as I write this, I realize: when you strike at the King, strike to kill.
And the next comment?
“that is a great comment.”
You are the best, Jane, bar none.
A few questions for those of you who are more legally minded than I am:
1. If the chain of evidence leads compellingly to the President, can Fitzgerald indict him?
2. If a sitting president is indicted, does that automatically initiate impeachment proceedings in Congress? My understanding of jefferson’s manual is that a prosecutorial writ is one of four or five ways impeachment proceedings could be triggered, in theory? Of course, the rethugs in Congress could simply suspend or dispense with the manual…
3. What are the prospects of this happening?
“The President broke the law. It’s not open for debate. They’ve admitted it.”
No, this President takes the position that he CANNOT break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.”
(CNN) “… in a House Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday, New York Rep. Jerrold Nadler quizzed Attorney General Alberto Gonzales about whether Bush could declassify documents “for political reasons.”
“The president is going to make the determination as to what’s in the best interest of the country,” Gonzales replied.”
George W. Bush ALONE decides what’s in the best interest of the nation. Are we clear?
Slap him down. Or suffer the consequences.
EPU’d (and strangely enough, EPU was in the room at the time):
“What would be the appropriate response of Congress and the Courts?†–orangejumpsuit
orange, I believe the almighty EPU is correct about the Saturday Night Massacre during Watergate. I believe that is when Nixon jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
Would the public and Congressional reaction be the same today? That’s hard to say. For one thing, we have a Republican Congress. But maybe if The People turned out in force with their pitchforks and torches, we could make something happen.
Come on, Gonzo, you punk. Make my day.
The congress will decide to reign in the executive branch on the day that a democrat takes office.
Jane: Can we put this up as a petition somewhere and get signatures?
Have any of you seen this yet?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Jason Leopold has just published an article at TruthOut entitled, Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak, that says the US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will soon release proof that both President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were at the center of the NIE Plamegate leaks. They authorized them, and were kept fully informed by emails that Fitzgerald has in his possession!”
“Sic semper tyrannus!”
ISSUE 2: What was the scope and extent of the President’s secret eavesdropping? Did the warrantless eavesdropping include only international calls, as he claims, or purely domestic calls as well? Were only suspected Al Qaeda members eavesdropped, on as he claims, or did the eavesdropping extend beyond that? How was it determined who would be eavesdropped on? And what was done with the information?
Sounds like Abu cleared all this confusion up today. From RawStory: “NYT Friday: Gonzales says Bush has authority to wiretap calls exclusively within United States… Developing…”
Hope that clears up any confusion.
The Democratic “leadership” believes that the Republicans are falling apart all by themselves and that calling for censure of the President detracts from that process.
It’s a Harry Reid as Sun Tzu thing: why fight the enemy when the enemy is destroying himself?
Thus we get the smokescreen of “let’s wait for an investigation.”
I would say that this kind of thinking had its place up until today. But now, we’re in a new world.
I wonder how quickly the Democratic “leadership” will get it and see that calling for censure clearly facilitates the process of weakening GOP strength.
It’s at the point where they can be pushed over and can’t get up again.
“censure sure makes sense.”
Censure the President for willfully skirting the constitution? Sure. Whatever. I personally think that act deserves much more than censure, but I’m supportive of Feingold’s approach and will push my senators to support him in it.
Censure the President for willfully violating Federal criminal law for political gain? No way. If Libby’s allegations bear up, censure is an utterly inappropriate response. Nothing shore of an orange jumpsuit would redeem the republic….
17 enc says:
April 6th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Have any of you seen this yet?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Jason Leopold has just published an article at TruthOut entitled, Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak, that says the US Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald will soon release proof that both President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were at the center of the NIE Plamegate leaks. They authorized them, and were kept fully informed by emails that Fitzgerald has in his possession!â€
Jason also wrote the other day that Fitz will be going to GJ soon for Rove indictment.
Blub, you asked:
1. If the chain of evidence leads compellingly to the President, can Fitzgerald indict him?
a succinct answer just appeared here
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/194043/7323
“Finally, the Fitzgerald investigation is picking up steam. But before becoming too excited, please remember folks, that Fitzgerald can not indict a sitting President. He can only name him as an unindicted coconspirator, and we do not have any indication that he intends to do this…yet. Fitzgerald can indict the VP. But a sitting President can only be tried and removed with an impeachment process. But the smoking gun evidence appears to be near.”
I thought that whole “the President cannot break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.— BS was settled during Nixon. Why are they still bringing that crap up? There is no “divine right of Presidents.”
the Leopold atory says Bush was kept informed via Email about the Plame leak. As I understood it, Bush doesn’t do Email…
I REPEAT: this President takes the position that he CANNOT break the law, because HE decides what is “lawful.†His plenary “authority” as Commander-in-Chief” in a post 9/11 world entitles him to do as he pleases with respect to “what’s in the best interest of the country,” and HE alone gets to decide which policy areas such unilateral authority extends to, domestic or foreign.
Hyperbolic? I don’t think so.
I’ve seen this kind of thing countless times in corporate meetings and especially when I worked in local government. Nobody wants to be responsible when the shit hits the fan, so actions are tabled indefinitely while everyone waits for more information. Shame on Nancy Pelosi, as Minority Leader, for acting just like a timid middle manager hoping some magic bullet will come along to absolve her of responsibility of action. She’s the leader, she should be able to stand up and act with conviction.
“Don’t fire until you see the whites of their eyes”….I’m going to disagree with you on your position in this post Ms. Hamsher. From what I gather, the general public still has a LOT of hesitation on censure and certainly impeachment. It has to do with the war, and hesitation that we show weakness to the enemy. Now, I do NOT agree with the general public, but so be it. Some Democrats don’t want to “piss off” the general public when things seem to be going our way. And, alas, alot of my Democratic leaders are just plain chicken…I regret to admit.
Thus, timing may be EVERYTHING on censure. It may be a little too early for the stomachs of middle-of-the-road Americans. I HATE sitting on my rear and doing nothing…but in this case it may be the wisest choice for now. Let’s wait just a bit longer before we fire…wait till we see the whites of their eyes…then CREAM THEM.
PS: anyone think a censure motion modified to “censure the president for releasing classified national security matters purely for political gain” might have a little more traction? Just a thought. Let’s keep our powder dry….we’re gonna get these repugs! Ghostman
ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT
AGAINST GEORGE W. BUSH
ISBN 1-933633-08-5
$9.95 paperback original (144 pages)
SEND A COPY TO YOUR CONGRESSPERSON
You buy the book, we pay the postage…
The price of $4.95 reflects the deduction of our shipping and handling fees. We will send the book, with a note saying it is “courtesy of your constituent, (your name and address),” to the member of the House of Representatives for your billing zip code. Note: You do not need to tell us who your Representative is, nor their address. Also, note that we are sending only to members of the House, not the Senate, because impeachment proceedings must commence in the House.
http://www.mhpbooks.com/aoi.html
play the percentages, Jane? Shit, I could only wish they would start doing that. This is a president who was rated at 36% in a Fox News poll.
It’s about time they started cynically playing the percentages. What they are doing instead is, running scared from their own shadows.
Hmm… is Fitz trying to destroy Bush politically before issuing indictments? This could be smart…he’s releasing info that shows Bush was complicit, so that when the next indictments come, even if Bush is not named, he will be seen as a target.
cleter -
It’s never settled, not for this criminal asshole. If other branches of government don’t step up and act to restrain him, he’ll take every ounce of power he can grab.
“And That’s Up To The U.S. Attorney To Find The Facts…”
I promise you Mr. President, that I shall, that I shall, or my name is not Patrick J. Fitzgerald!
President Bush: “I want to know the truth…”
(Press Conference, Savannah, Georgia, 6/10/04).
Sure you do, but do you want everyone else to know it too? ;)
http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com
PS: Christy’s article was “Fitz’s Pick Of the Day!”
Jane: Capitol Hill.
be right back.
Go Jane! Go Glenn Greenwald! We need to beat the drum on this and never stop until justice is done.
With regard to Glenn’s Issue 2, an important point is that it doesn’t just matter whether the calls monitored by the NSA involved suspected Al Qaeda members; it matters who made that determination. Who decided there was probable cause? That is not the administration’s job, that is the court’s job. And in this case, it never happened. It is easy for the NSA to say that someone is a “suspected Al Qaeda member.” But that is not the standard; that is not the end of the inquiry. The government could decide that Russell Feingold or Keith Olbermann (or anyone they talk to on the phone) is a “suspected Al Qaeda member.” But to make the search legal under FISA and the 4th Amendment, a judge has to agree with them. That didn’t happen here. That is the essence of Bush’s crime.
MATTHEWS: The president’s policy has been in another direction. The president has said other presidents beyond me, my successors will have to deal with the number of troops we still have in that country. Is he sending them the opposite signal, we’re going to be here, we’re going to have permanent bases here, you don’t have to worry?
KERRY: I believe that’s the wrong signal and yes they have never been willing to say we will not have permanent bases. I think it is critical for the United States to announce that. We can protect our interests in the region. We will be stronger against Iran if we’re out of Iraq. We will be stronger with respect to what Putin is doing in Russia today if we regain our moral authority in the region.
We must change this policy and the time is now and it’s immoral to allow our kids to be killed while these guys are frittering around, playing their political games. We wouldn’t tolerate it here, we wouldn’t tolerate it anywhere else. It shouldn’t be done.
(MSNBC)
Ugh! I get so mad over this censure issue. I wish Democrats would just support it already.
From the last thread “What’s more evil than lawyers?”
Hey, watch how you talk about Christy.
I agree with puppethead (27). We are in a Constitutional crises and the [expletive deleted] Dems are still looking over their shoulder to see if opposition is gaining on their re-election front. Hello??? We have the clearest evidence short of the indictment of Cheney that the President has decided he is a monarch. Congress is irrelevant. The courts are irrelevant. What is a congressional seat worth if nothing you say or do makes any difference to the executive? The democracy is going down the tubes and these cowardly shits in the Democratic party are still cowering in a corner like a gaggle of abused children. If you, as a representative of the people, can’t stand up at this time, please get the [expletive deleted] out of the way!!!
I’ve said my piece on Censure many times–I’m for it if it helps to win seats in 06 and against it otherwise. I’m not certain- but I suspect that pushing the issue now hurts rather than helps.
Of course there will BE no censure- we all know that- so it’s an academic discussion and I guess I’ll stay out of it.
Demz are wimps. But they will take well-deserved shit if/when BushCo does go down b/c they sat on the sideline and refused to take a stand. The spoils will not go to Schumer, Reid, et al.
What I can’t figure out is why Pelosi came back. It’s not as if she couldn’t read the comments and see where the majority of those responding were coming from (not her side to be sure).
But I have a theory. It has to do with what happens to lotsa folks when they are elected to office. It’s why US representatives can’t be bothered to pay for a better security system in their capitol and wear an id bigger than those itsy bitsy pins that McKinney got stuck on. The rules apply to everyone but them. And looking at Bush’s actions, it appeals to this shadow side of themselves, and inwardly they think, “yeah, that’s the way you do it.” They think they know better than 99% of the population because by gum they not only got elected, but after they got elected, all these folks started telling them how wonderful and smart and beautiful they are. And they start to believe it.
It is written that always in the chariot with Caesar was an individual who would constantly murmur in Caesar’s ear, “Remember, that thou too art mortal, O Caeser.” They had a specific title (which I of course can’t remember right now) and some historians have suggested that eventually they became what we know as court jesters, as the original function disappeared. I think we need to bring the custom back and saddle each elected representative, senator president, and governor with one. Somehow these folks have to remember that they, too are mortal.
Until that happens, we will be treated this way by both parties.
Lest you think that I speak only of this from a distance, 8 years ago the ex was elected to the state legislature and almost immediately underwent a profound personality change, or at least a latent aspect of the personality that I had not detected in 15+ years of marriage came out. Why come home to the spouse and kids when you’ve got loyal sycophants and actual groupies who give you much more positive strokes?
We need to bring Pelosi and other waffling Dems down to earth.
George Bush: Hitler’s Revenge.
What does Teddy’s post mean? Should we be watching CSpan or something? I’ll go peek.
What’s happening on Capitol Hill?
28: sorry, but ‘powder dry’ don’t fly here. Try kos for that meme.
What the hell is it going to take before politicians stop cynically playing the percentages game and take a stand, like Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, Tom Harkin and Pat Leahy to do the right thing?
My guess would be for a video to surface showing Dick and Duh-bya engaged in the ritualistic slaying and subsequent consumption of multiple 24 month old toddlers.
And even then I would have my doubts about the Dems coming out stongly against the practice.
And of course the administration would eexplain it away, and Old Media would dutifully report it, as being in the best interests of national security.
If we don’t kill and eat these babies the terrorists win. See?
neurophius (35) Yes, and the abuse of power can be made into a simple campaign slogan/advertisement.
“George Bush cannot catch al queda members because he is too busy spying on you and other political enemies.”
Pacha @ 16
http://www.tomharkin.com/nl/CensurePetition.htm
Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence
Use imagination to update these statements to the present time and situation
He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
rwcole — I understand your reluctance. There is a desperate need to do what it takes to win either of the houses of Congress in the fall, get the majority back and start cleaning up this mess.
But sometimes you have to do the right thing in anticipation of the facts catching up to you as they are here. If you know what the right thing to do is, and you haven’t stood up for your beliefs, when the truth outs at a later time you look like you didn’t have the courage of your convictions. It’s happening to Feingold right now. The short term “don’t rock the boat” thinking is, I believe, much riskier with a President who is imploding daily. Do the right thing and he will play to your hand just by being who he is — a corrupt incompetent fuck-up.
Moe99 no. 42
Are you sure the ex didn’t just fall in love with the unlimited cocktail weenies?
From Jason Leopold at Truthout.org:
The officials, some of whom are attorneys close to the case, added that more than two dozen emails that the vice president’s office said it recently discovered and handed over to leak investigators in February show that President Bush was kept up to date about the circumstances surrounding the effort to discredit former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.
The sources indicated that the leak probe is now winding down, and that soon, new information will emerge from the special counsel’s office that will prove President Bush had prior knowledge of the White House campaign to discredit Plame Wilson’s husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who accused the administration of “twisting” intelligence on the Iraqi threat in order to win public support for the war.
The new information that surfaced late Wednesday places President Bush at the center of the probe for the first time since the investigation into the leak began more than two years ago and raises new questions as to whether Bush knew in advance the lengths to which senior White House officials went to discredit Wilson.
Thank you, zenn.
Found this GOP infighting cancels budget vote
Slothrop
Some more pseudo Sun Tzu:
There is no reason to stand up if your enemy is falling down.
The best battle is the one that is not fought.
Confuse your enemies by agreeing with them.
Accommodation betrays a greater wisdom.
clueless: mind if I unbold that? It’s a bit much, but I would keep the italics.
sorry z just a spelling correction of Capital Hill in Jane’s post, I couldn’t leave it alone and had to comment: Capitol Hill, to correct her spelling.
OT: New territory for Rita Cosby:
Missing (young, good looking) white man.
I have to acknowledge that as much as I would like to see a censure motion advanced (if not a double impeachment inquiry) there is something to be said for assembling more facts first, because there seems to be ever more damning information about the Bush/Cheney lies that are revealed with each passing week, which could ultimately lead to broad based support for their censure, if not outright removal.
Pach,
You watch Rita Cosby and admit it? Now, that’s standing up for your convictions. *g*
Repost from previous thread:
Stephen Parrish, CPA says:
April 6th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Links to two of Jason Leopold’s stories: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040606Y.shtml and http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040606R.shtml
The headlines:
Bush at Center of Intelligence Leak
Evidence Suggests White House Conspiracy
kirby:
I’ve been wondering–what does *g* mean?
*g* == Grin
Yeoooooooooooowwwwwwwww! Moe99 rocks wit da history.
It’ still a leeeetle early in the Nixon curve. That’s the arc Nixon described as he hurtled from an overwhelming mandate received in his victory over McGovern to self-destruction, splattering himself all over the landscape in a vindication of our democratic republic.
Don’t imagine that the Senators who are getting their faces smeared with rhetorical feces by the McChimpy’s designated ape Torture Boy Gonzales. No, no, no they are waiting for the opportunity to fuck the little turd up. And they are gonna take Bushfuhrer down too. It’s gonna be real bad for McChimp and Big Time…real bad. For a foreshadow read what the WingNut Senator Sensenbrenner had to say today. Check out how Condi-Lies-a-Lot got handled today.
Get the popcorn ready the show is just now beginning.
Hint: The bad guy gets it in the end.
As a resident of a dyed-in-the-wool Blue State, the Empire State as it used to be known , allow me express &/or chime in with the dismay a lot of us feel over the abject, total, complete, utter, over the top failure of Hill&Chuck or is it Chuck&Hill?, to display the smallest pair of huevos. Hell, no! we’re running in aught eight!! Well, by then, it’ll either be too late or we’ll be crossing our knives and forks in preparation to eating the……….rich?
Jane,
That’s a pretty good argument- the “lead opinion by example” argument I guess.
Of course it’s NOT as if the dems aren’t bashing holy hell out of Clusterfuck daily- they are.
THIS issue is about forcing dems to vote on a resolution that may force many of them to vote “no” for their own political survival- (red state dems) and that would be divisive.
I’m a shitty chess player- but this requires thinking a few steps ahead.
1) Push for vote on censure (not hard- goopers seem to be salivating about it).
2) Vote comes in with dems split on the matter and goopers 100% against..
At the end of the day- what has been accomplished? The public that is paying attention will know that SOME dems want to censure the president- but they won’t know any more than they know now about why. The dems come across as fragmented- and the senate is on record as saying by majority that he should not be censured.
Does that help? I’m not so sure.
We’ve got some red staters up for re-election- and to expect them to fall on their swords in a doomed effort is expecting too much in my opinion.
If they are forced to vote “no” they will- and the message about Clusterfuck will be weaker for it.
I just can’t get this to play out as a “win” scenario- but maybe I’m being dense.
Isn’t anyone opposed to Feingold’s resolution complicit in the Preznit’s lawbreaking and therefore at risk of removal from office as well?
Heh. I have the sound off. I got a phone call during Olbermann and forget the tv was still on. Then I saw the good looking guy and the headline.
:)
rwcole @ 6:34 pm - What Jane said. Plus…
I think that the Democrats are in a worse position than they could have been if they’d taken real, principled stands for the rule of law and civil rights before now. Instead, most said little or nothing. Chuck Schumer’s excoriation of Bush today sounds like the political opportunism that it is, and rings hollow of the ears of everyone who’s been following events in the last few years. Only a few Democrats voted against the Iraq War authorization, and that hurt Kerry in 2004, among others.
Just waiting around to let the other guy screw up might be a safe strategy, but it’s not going to win anyone’s respect.
Rich - The thing is the dems can have it both ways - unity in calling for censure and stonewalling repugs making sure it doesn’t happen. The info would continue to be collected but dems would at least stand for something and answer the calls of their constituency. It is the sort of position that most would call a “no brainer,” or even “win-win” for the Dems. Which also then begs the question of whether dems think of that “no brainer” thing differently.
I really think censure is working as a means of keeping the discussion going. Then on top of it little facts keep coming out. Then Kerry gets on TV and says we need out of Iraq. It helps keeping the discussion on what they have done wrong and whether or not it deserves impeachment/censure. IMO this is where we want to be with them on the ropes. Then the sucker punch can be “Rubber Stamp Republican Congress” and “Bush authorized Treasonous Leak!” (very fond of that headline)
BTW did we ever get the rubber stamp video. Saw the C-Span video. Very cool.
Look… the laws of the US, the Constitution, International laws mean nothing to these guys. 9.11 is their excuse to ignore the law, act beyond the law, re define it to suit and justify their actions.
What we really need to do is to challenge their 9.11 BS that we are at war. That is the shield that they use to deflect ALL criticism.
We are not at war. There is no war.
Whew, Pach, I feel so much better now. Sigh.
Jane & RW
MLK said in his letter from the Birmingham Jail
There’s not much more I or anyone can add to that.
I think that discrediting Joe Wilson is the red herring in this leak. The real objective was to shut down the operation monitoring proliferation, particularly as it applied or not to Iran that was Plame’s ballywick. They didn’t want a source of accurate information available vis-a-vis Iran when they got around to hyping the easily duped American public for another illegal war of choice against another country - Iran.
Can the (P)resident be a child molester too, if he wants to be? Just how far does executive privilege extend?
rwcole: Her’s what I think you’re missing.
You were right the first time: it won’t come to a vote, but you don’t just get political mileage out of a vote. You can get political mileage out of a growing movement saying president has broken the law.
Minority party politics involves a lot of theater. It’s about time we acted accordingly. And in this case, it’s not cynical, Gingrich theater. It’s a real defense of representative government.
Cujo359 … contrary to the belief propagated by the WH, the majority of Democrats in Congress voted against that War Resolution
I asked this before.. any tie-ine with pre-knowledge about the niger forgeries? Tying those to the White House would be the last thread to tie.. sorry for the awkward english.. SLow!!!!
CIeran says:
April 6th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
“…while executive orders clarify the declassification process, it is still a matter of law, e.g., the Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954, and thus not merely derived from mutable executive order.
The WH simply cannot declassify much information about WMD (and remember that discussions about Iraq, or for that matter, Joe Wilson’s trip to Africa, are at their heart all about WMD….”
This is an intriguing thought. If Bush broke the law (another one), this would be about his lawbreaking, like the NSA warrantless wiretapping.
Another thought: what if Bush told Scooter (or told Cheney to tell Scooter, what’s the diff?) to tell a foreign government (oh, say the British) the same story? Wouldn’t that be treason? Are the Republicans actually going to say that WHATEVER George does is legal?
77: yes and under whose leadership? oh, that lady who returned to kos for more feedback today? the one who saved our Social Security? the gal several steps closer to Geena Davis status if we can regain the House this fall and then let the chips fall where they may?
her?
Wilson, 25
“the Leopold atory says Bush was kept informed via Email about the Plame leak. As I understood it, Bush doesn’t do Email… “
This may be true (I wouldn’t know) but Bush does not have to personally manage his email.I would think there is an email account for his office that would be handled by a WH aide with Top Secret clearance.
Joe Conason snip, at Salon.com:
“… Libby’s story doesn’t directly implicate the president in the Plame leak. But the latest revelations contrast rather sharply with the assurances provided by White House press secretary Scott McClellan back in the fall of 2003, when the administration was still resisting the appointment of a special prosecutor or independent counsel to probe the leak of Plame’s identity. On Sept. 29, 2003, Helen Thomas asked him whether “the president has tried to find out who outed the CIA agent? And has he fired anyone in the White House yet?”
In his most patronizing tone, McClellan replied, “Helen, that’s assuming a lot of things. First of all, that is not the way this White House operates. The President expects everyone in his administration to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. No one would be authorized to do such a thing.” Asked whether the president knew anything beyond what the media had reported, McClellan said, “We don’t have any information [about the leak] that’s been brought to our attention beyond what we’ve seen in the media reports. I’ve made that clear.” He emphasized that the president knew nothing about the leak, repeating, “We have nothing beyond those media reports to suggest there is White House involvement.”
The press secretary bristled when Thomas and other reporters suggested that the president had reacted too passively to the leak, and seemed unconcerned about its implications for national security and Plame’s safety.
“Absolutely, the President believes that this is a serious matter when you’re talking about the leak of classified information,” said McClellan. “The leak of classified information, yes, you’re absolutely right, can compromise sources and methods. That’s why the President takes it very seriously, and we’ve always taken it very seriously.”
That was the famous press briefing when McClellan exonerated Rove, while promising that any official responsible for the leak would be fired. “If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration,” he said, speaking for the president.
How will McClellan explain away Libby’s testimony…”
***
drip, drip, drip, drip…
as some wag in here reminded us: tomorrow Scotty will face what Jon Stewart would characterize as a Level 5 Shitstorm …
Guardian Headline and no kiddin’ around lead paragraph:
Bush implicated in leak on Iraq intelligence
George Bush authorised a senior aide to the vice-president, Dick Cheney, to leak classified intelligence on Iraq to the New York Times reporter Judith Miller, according to court documents made public yesterday.
Maybe Scotty will announce his resignation to deflect the obvious.
jane, I hate to say this, but without a media to tell the public what is going on, they will continue to believe the rush and hannidys of the airwaves
really, it is left for the dnc to take every last penny in their chest and hammer the media, with adds and adds and adds.
we must take whatever is left and while the u.s. dollar is still worth something, and we have to MAKE the public aware of what is becomming of their country
#45, a Mr. Teddy from Frisco…..I “think” your comment belittles mine, but I’m new here. I’ve heard of the Kos blog but don’t have too much familiarity with it. But I “guess” this Mr. Kos echoes my view?
In any event, I just think that the general public, while not having confidence in Bush (all the polls so document), are still a little antsy over a censure of Bush regarding the wiretapping issue. I sorta think (and now I’m really reading tea leaves) that the public worries that if we censure Bush over wiretapping al queda, and he stops doing it, we might be subject to an attack. I DISAGREE with such reasoning…but there you go. Which is why a “different” type of censure might be more viable, as I suggested above. Thanks all, and Mr. Teddy in Frisco, you enjoy your evening. Ghostman
God Bless Patrick Fitzgerald. And goodnight.
Impeachment now.
#83– hope chertoff et al are ready for the level 5 storm coming their way…..
How long ago did Feingold introduce his censure resolution, a month ago? He has been wildly successful with it, timid and frightened Democratic colleagues not withstanding. His resolution is being taken as seriously, if not more so, as when he introduced it. Try as they might, the GOP and Vichy Democrats couldn’t kill the story in the media. With the new revelations of Bush’s malfeasance of office Feingold’s resolution looks even better, contrasting sharply with a GOP Congress who was just seen high-fiving their disgraced chief criminal.
As Jane said, take the principled stand and let the Bush government’s meltdown catch up with you. Anything else looks like indecisiveness or political opportunism.
That dog don’t hunt no more, Ghostman:
“Let’s keep our powder dry … we’re gonna get these repugs! Ghostman”
Keeping the powder dry is what the Vichy Dems said on Supremo Roberts and on filibuster (for which they allegedly fought to maintain but then totally ignored when they should have used the fought-for right) on ScAlito.
Not supporting Conyer’s HR 635 on investigating Impeachment? More “dry powder.”
Not backing Feingold on Censure? More “desert fart dry powder.”
I think this “let’s keep our powder dry” argument of spineless Democrats should be reversed right back in their weasel, ferret faces: The Dry Powder Flatulence Machine.
OK, Libby made this assertion under Oath under potential penalty of further perjury charge. I would ask Snotty McFelon at the next WH press briefing “is Mr. Libby lying? Yes or no. Can you take this opportunity to unequivocally clear the President and the Vice President?” Simple question.
rwcole: you might be correct on a vote for censure. But Dems need to be moving much more aggressively on some front. If vote on censure is a really bad move for reasons you give, then I think Dems should be pushing for action in congress much more aggressively. Get Robers and Frist to explain why they can’t investigate every day. I suppose they could do regular public education actions, a little polite and genteel political theatre like a demonstration in front of WH, or a symbolic congressional walkout, slow down congress (but that would take people like Schumer and Emanuel admitting that maybe they made a mistake re hearings and rev something up)
Digby hits just right note, I think. Can this Digby, whatever he or she is, be a Big Shot Democratic consultant? I will recommned Digby. Dems need to do something regularly that public notices, prefaced by Digby’s seniments.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com.....9111849023
President Bush may be the most dishonest president in history, as I believe — or he may be no more dishonest than most presidents, as others believe. But I think we should all agree that the country should not have to depend upon the president’s reputation for personal honesty as to whether they are allowed to break the law.
The NSA wiretapping scandal turns on exactly this issue. Everyone agrees that the government should be able to wiretap terrorists and terrorist sympathizers in the US. But we should not accept that the president or the people who report to him can make the determination as to who those people are without any oversight. There is a long history of other presidents using their power for political purposes and this one is no exception.
George W. Bush cannot be given a free pass on this.
I absolutely support censure. There have been months and months of hearings and facts, all which blatantly prove that there have been crimes and that the pres has lied repeatedly to us and to the Congress. I understand rw’s point about it not passing because of a repug majority, we all do. I want principles back on our governmnet and I think this censure resolution is the opportunity to hold the majority’s feet to the fire. I don’t think there will ever be a better time. The Democrats, when they gain the majority, will have the biggest mess in history to work on as they try to bring us back to a democracy we can trust and believe in. The debt and the war alone could keep them working around the clock for months. If a crime is committed outside your door, do you have to think about whether it is the right time to call the police? Will it disturb the neighbors if the sirens wail? Will they come in and disturb your TV viewing asking