Feingold and Fitz and FDL!

Fitz baby.

Fire the consultant cocktail class.

Beyootiful, Jane– WE have the memory of elephants. Scary to dems– hope so. Great post.

Just curious: are you sure Campbell wasn’t referring to conservative bloggers?

Did you just coin the word netizens? brilliant!

It reminds me of the fear some people had of “looters” after Katrina. I guess it shows just how powerfull the media is that it manipulate one’s attitudes and perceptions. And… I don’t even watch TV hardly anymore. I get my news through my RSS feeds which puts me and most of us net denizens in a differnet catagorey.

I think it’s more about assuming all (or a majority) or bloggers say bad things about Democrats.

It’s been said so many times before, but FWIW: do they really *want* to loose? I mean, c’mon, isn’t there are much more appealing, relevant, and appropriate enemy for he Democrats to fight than “the bloggers” who have only been doing their homework for the past five years?

We’ve got really excellent candidates in primaries (I’m thinking NY-24 here) who are in danger of being pushed out by pathetic conservo-crat candidates simply because the Dinos in DC prefer compliant yes-men (and women) who will toe the party line. They seem to have the same approach to voters and activists: just do as we say, pay up, get out the vote, and all will be well.

Well, that pathetic strategy lost us ‘00, ‘02, and ‘04, and unless they realize that it’s time to try something else — like listening for a change — ‘06 will be around their neck, too.

I have a slightly different take on Pelosi putting up that diary…

I say “KUDOS!” for one simple reason. That took some guts – she has to know by this point the degree of frustration, anger, and rage boiling over amongst the Democratic Party’s net-savvy activist base.

I think that putting that diary up has the potential to be a very positive move, in the long run.

IF (of course it is a big if) Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry and etc are willing to learn, pay attention, and take some advice from the people that have the potential to actually form the core of a modern progressive populist movement (that would be us)…then we may have something we can work with.

IF Pelosi reads through (or a savvy, smart staffer reads through) that comment thread and the other diaries, they could pick up some really good material, advice, and constructive criticisms.

Let’s hope that they really can learn.

If not, let’s hope the door doesn’t hit them in the ass on the way out.

That is so sad. That’s like a drowning man saying, “We must battle the life preservers on their own turf! Glug!”

Pathetic doesn’t convey it. What are these people smoking?

Kevin Drum — Doesn’t seem to be Atrios’ reading, and I have a hard time believing conservative bloggers in Philadelphia are a big problem. Certainly not one they couldn’t counter effectively by working with the bounty of Democratic bloggers they have in that city.

angie says:

April 5th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
Did you just coin the word netizens? brilliant!

No, sorry… that’s been pinging around for a while now. Though I have no idea who invented it, I can at least attest to the fact that you haven’t just witnessed it being coined.

OK, just to advocate for the devil, are we sure they mean the progressive blogs, or could they be talking about PJMedia?

I would be so disappointed to know that members of my party are talking about the Jane Hamshers of the Left as people to do battle with–as opposed to embrace, and invite to dinner. Are Democrats in Philadelphia that politically brain-dead? I am reminded of the Mo Udall aphorism about a Democratic firing squad being formed in a circle.

Kevin Drum says:
April 5th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
Just curious: are you sure Campbell wasn’t referring to conservative bloggers?

Kevin,

This Philly Demo blog dis stuff came out on the blogs a few hours ago, and you’re the first person I’ve seen ask that question. Needs to be answered – and soon.

I for one, no longer get my news via the 10 second soundbites from the evening news programs. I subscribe to various online news sources and yes, I feel I am better informed about issues than when I watched two hours of news every night on TV. I can debate issues more intelligently now, and I owe that to blogging and reading good blogs such as this one.

Alaskan_Pete,

Been hoping to be here when you also are.

I live between Palmer and Wasilla on Neklason Lake. Where are you?

I’m with Kevin Drum here, are peopole sure that they didn’t mean conservative bloggers?

I am a moderate by nature, and do mind moderate or even safe, or cautious strategies. but problem is I hear nothing organized, consistent and sustained. That is the problem I have, and I do not demand constant inyourface political theatre. The commenter carot in last thread had some good suggestions about how even the current very cautious strategy could be played to advantage to voters. Carot had some good ideas about how the Dems can act relatively chicken shit (sorry carot, but that is my interpretation of the strategy), and yet score some points with the public and do some public education. But I had to reply that if that kind of chickensht strategy existed, then we would be hearing some consistent message. Problem with me is not that they are 100% or 90% or 50% of maximum aggressiveness, but that they are so close to zero by any measure that it does not register with the voters.

As I have said, seems to me like moderation is being confused with no vision or position or stand. Responsibility is being confused with passivity. My Dx is too many organization people.

Poor rwcole is drinking some kind of tomato juice an likker thing because we beat up on Dems again. Cheer him up please.

thank- you, Jeremius for answering my wee question! It seemed Janeian to me– you know, clever and all. I have to find out who coined that though– ’tis brilliant.

Jane, you sound like you’re channeling Reagan’s 11th commandment. . . in reverse.

Just went to Young Philly Politics and they have a post on this with only one comment. No post at attytood, surprising. What a totally silly position to take.

I’m half asleep, but sure have enjoyed myself here tonight.

Sweet Dreams, friends

zen

Sweet dreams to you zen and take care of yourself! Goodnite all.

Another instance of the painful clear state our of affairs… politicians are drop out stupid bully power hungry fool wastrels.

by Chris Bowers, Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 10:42:19 PM EST was the headline on the Matt Stoller link. Jane, did you really mean Matt Stoller? I don’t follow mydd, so maybe they are one in the same. or not???

Pach — I think that’s appropriate for other Democrats. I don’t think Pelosi should come out and bash Russ Feingold or Cynthia McKinney, I think she should be bashing Rush Limbaugh and everyone else who uses the word “ghetto” to describe her. I think it is appropriate for us to be critical of Democrats but I think we need to be careful how we do it. I try never to use language like “weak” or “spineless” that reinforce GOP talking points. Per Digby.

uhgh. ya got a morning after pill handy?

RedDan @ 8.53PM,

But… you go through the whole discussion on ‘Kos following Pelosi’s post, and the one thing that’s notably missing is any response from her to the criticisms raised. Zip. Nada.

And so, I’m not sure what’s so damn gutsy or potentially positive about her dropping off a statement and then simply wiping her hands off, turning away, and leaving as the torrent of feedback starts coming in. It’s little different than sending out a press release, and that’s exactly the wrong way to interact with the ‘net roots.

More than anything it shows how clued out Pelosi & her media advisers must be if she really thinks that this will have an impact on the Kossacks.

VG — thanks you’re right. Duly noted and changed.

Damn hard to persuade voters you’ll stand up to al Qaeda when Dems can’t even credibly show that they can stand up to loud-mouthed bloviating bootlicking party-over-country chickenhawk Republicans.

Goooo Dems! Win by default.

Wait impassively for the Republicans to implode, then peek meekly into the smoking ruins of whatever remains of the country, its military, its economy, and its Constitution and expect Americans to welcome you for saying, doing, proposing virtually nothing to slow much less stop the avoidable nitwitteries, immoralities and atrocities of the last six years.

Now that’s strateregerizing.

Is Bob Schrum back in bidness?

What the Democratic politicians need to understand is that blogs are the Democratic equivalent of think tanks. The GOP has built, over the decades, these ivory towers of policy wonkery and populated them with their intelligentsia (and I use that word loosely here). All GOP analysis and policy come from these insulated priests, the torchbearers of their messaging.

But the liberals, the progressives, and the leftists have always been driven by the people determining what’s important. The Democratic politicians follow their lead instead of choosing the path. When these politicians stray too far from or fall too far behind what the people want they become embattled and start to lose relevance. I think that’s the shift happening now. The establishment political system doesn’t serve the average American anymore, and the Democrats are finding the ground quaking beneath their feet.

We don’t have the Heritage Foundation or Rand or PNAC or even weekly doughnuts and coffee with Grover. What we do have now, however, is an interconnected community of activists who have more in-depth knowledge now than could be imagined a decade ago. The blog community is the Democratic Party’s open source think tank. It has the potential to be bigger than than all of the GOP think tanks combined.

Jane,

I left some Lucianne links in the last late night Wolfie thread below.

As for the blogger comment, you can find some diaries on this stuff at Booman. I’m pretty sure that Chris Bowers at MyDD has written about it in the last couple of days too. The impression I got from all these pieces is that this quote is indeed mentioning progressive, not conservative, bloggers.

Well, let’s assume for a moment that they DO mean “fight conservative bloggers on their own turf.” Then, that begs the question–what the hell do they think we’re doing? Do they think conservatives run the blogosphere or something? How uninformed is that?

I would guess they had some sort of consultant babble some internet buzz phrases at them, and out of that word salad came the phrase “fight bloggers on their own turf.”

Hell, I’m just happy they finally found the word “fight.”

Bullgoose — thanks, I was missing ya ;)

I seriously doubt the comment was directed at the “heh, indeedy” echo chambers or racist forums that comprise the right wing blogosphere. They have no political power, serving merely as transmitters for the official messaging just like every other form of media. If the comment were meant to cover right wing blogs the message wouldn’t single them out. It seems clear to me the Philadelphia party establishment feels threatened from the powerful left wing blogs. Ours is the community upsetting the party machinery.

puppethead #29
“The blog community is the Democratic Party’s open source think tank”

That is brilliant. They need to recognize that.

puppethead,

Well put, and unlike the GOP think tanks, we’ve got nothing to hide. They can read it (and weep) here. No dirty tricks, just the truth.

Moonbats from the feverswamp. Imagine it as DC cartoonists might. Hard part is imagining the hero (in Armani perhaps) routing those evil-doers. And if the party of death aren’t evil-doers, who the hell are?

Supplanting discussion with Manichean finger-pointing is un-American. America is on the ropes. And we are pray to a lot of external influences (including those from inside our borders who don’t really “live” here, if you know what I mean – “oh, that grocery scanner is a really cool thing”).

The blogosphere should be ridden, understood. There will be no cocktail weenies. But a part of American history that can be recounted in pride.

(snarks in next post) :-)

Jane 24: That is precisely my position.

Kevin Drum says:
April 5th, 2006 at 8:50 pm

Just curious: are you sure Campbell wasn’t referring to conservative bloggers?

I had this question too. However, after having read responses from Jane and others above, I’d say not a reference to conservative bloggers. BUT, it would be interesting to put the question straight up to Carol Campbell, no?

http://youngphillypolitics.blo…..urage.html
===It will be exactly one year since this city’s political leaders shelved the Route 15 trolley – an estimated $82 million public works project that was already paid for, and ready to resume its historic route along the Girard Avenue corridor.

Why?

Because Carol Campbell, a ward leader who also happens to be an officer in Philadelphia’s Democratic City Committee, didn’t want to lose parking on one side of a block in her neighborhood.

“I don’t think anyone would really have objected to the trolley itself, but when they started talking about taking away the parking, well, that was a different story,” said Campbell, who lives on the adjacent block.===

“What they’re battling is informed voters who follow the news in real-time, hate being patronized and don’t fall for the kitchen scraps gobbled up by people who are only paying half attention to this shit.”
Thanks for a great post, Jane.

thingwarbler,

I, for one, do not really expect Pelosi to sit at her computer blogging responses to 400 or more irate, tech and net savvy Kossacks.

First, she is probably a very busy person.

Second, I would hope that the point of her diary was to run up a flag and see what responses came, and then review those responses.

The real test of “listening” will be if a follow-up is posted with critiques addressed…and the ABSOLUTE test of “listening” will be a demonstrable change in behavior.

Example: Kerry has posted several times over at Kos, has gotten an earful and more. He has responded to some of those critiques, both directly in comments (very few) and indirectly with follow-up diaries…and now we see a pretty decent change of behavior as evidenced by the NYT editorial.

Let’s see if Pelosi can do the same.

They need us, and I think they are starting to realize it.

One thing that we obsessives need to learn is to accept prodigals back into the fold if they demonstrate the ability to grow and change – even a little.

Holding grudges, maintaining vendettas (presuming that grudges and vendettas are not warranted, and yes, Josh Trevino (or Joe Lieberman), that means YOU!) is counterproductive.

Kevin Drum: Bowers apparently has the scoop on this. It’s inside Philly stuff.

He writes about it here:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/5/1318/40809

Hey, if us internet fever swamp crazoids are the enemy, how come they’re always asking us for money? WTF is up with that?

I saw the change, Jane. Thanks. AND… in view of the article I found above, re: parking, I think it can be safely assumed that Carol Campbell meant the er… progressive blogosphere, or, to be fair, any kind of blogosphere.

Lookie here.

Certainly not one to plug much ado about Wal-Mart, but, in what may be a sign that the national fever of right-wing, intolerant evangelical Christians calling the shots for corporations. Wal-mart is carrying BrokeBack Mountain despite the letter writing campaigns generated by the American Family Association.

http://www.contactmusic.com/ne…..t_04_04_06

Battling bloggers? Send that woman a helmet and a late notice.
If I were a conservative, I would think that Dem is ready to tax the blogs.

A couple of things regarding Pelosi… first off, don’t think for a moment that “when Nancy is out in her own district, and she tells people that she’s filing resolutions against Tom DeLay, everyone applauds and thinks that’s a really good idea”… her last town meeting in San Francisco featured a whole lot of pissed off constituents asking why she supported the Iraq war and why she wasn’t supporting Bush’s impeachment. In the Bay Area, she’s considered a wishy-washy moderate, at best.

Secondly, this isn’t the first time Pelosi has posted something over at Kos, and the reaction is generally always the same. What pisses people off most, it seems, is her refusal to participate in any sort of dialogue. It’s always “drive-by” posting, no questions taken.

Finally, the SF Chronicle did a 3-part series on Pelosi’s strategy as House Minority Leader this week that you might find interesting. Pay special attention to who she’s getting money from – Don Fisher is not exactly big on “progressive” politics.

cleter says:

Hey, if us internet fever swamp crazoids are the enemy, how come they’re always asking us for money? WTF is up with that?

___________

B/c there’s a large segment of establishment Dems who prolly still look upon the netroots in precisely the same way the GOP looks upon its own hard-right evangelicals: as a necessary evil, to be both feared and loathed in secret, to be thrown a sop when it’s opportune and undamaging, and to be soaked for donations when inflamed, but ultimately: to be neutered and ignored when inconvenient.

If they’re only talking about battling conservative bloggers, which ones are they? Are they talking about the Dan Rather “takedown” crew, or something local? I’d be really surprised if they’re not talking about the meddlesome “fever swamp” that is Daily Kos, Firedoglake, etc.

I was listening to Air America (Randi Rhohes) earlier. She nailed Tom DeLay IMO. If he’s such a Christian, he’ll have to eventually face the court of God. BUT, he’s not willing to face the court of law, or the voters in his own district. I guess God told him he’s an asshole ; ) Sorry if that offends anyone but I thought it was spot on.

Last Sunday on TV Evan Bayh gave a Pelosi-like review of Feingold’s censure resolution. Bayh may be the best we can expect for a Dem in a conservative state like Indiana but that doesn’t mean that he should have any delusions about his chances of getting the Dem nomination for 2008. From the reviews he gets whenever he posts over at HuffPo, he should put that delusion to bed and be content with his seat in the senate. He is not going to get the Dem nomination.

OfT, but this made me laugh.

Checking my email box, scanned the Subjects (from NewsMax – I sub. to it to see what the other side is talking about) and found:

“URGENT POLL ON KATIE COURIC”

If THIS is what NewsMax thinks is urgent, tonight, we rest easy!

Huckermill, depressing but probably true.

Now, if Pelosi (or whoever) actually used this medium to “rap” [parenthetical comment omitted] with their constituency we would all be better off.

But they wouldn’t be, would they?

So, the next generation of politician’s (and its like science, you have to outlive the fuddy-duddies) will have staffs that can handle the comments and appease the angry commentors. Don’t know if I look forward to that or not…

“I don’t think anyone would really have objected to the trolley itself, but when they started talking about taking away the parking, well, that was a different story,†said Campbell, who lives on the adjacent block.

Let me rephrase that:
“I don’t think anyone would really have objected to the trolley (blogosphere) itself, but when they started talking about taking away the parking (money for the bendover Democrats), well, that was a different story,†said Campbell, who lives on the adjacent block.

I know that everybody’s watching us, but what I believe sets us apart is to use language and sentiment that is honest. Nobody here spares the rethugs or dems who are opportunistic; I like that. FDL is all about being ‘fair and balanced’. Dems will win again when we speak the truth, exclusively. I so understand playing the game, but the game is out of control and into spin the bottle on crack.

dave — thanks, good links and points.

That “fever swamp” thing is bulls**t, anyhow. It hearkens back to an erroneous, pre-bacterial medical belief that dieases like malaria and such were caused by miasmas and bad airs. So, when that right-wing dorkwad on Blitzer referred to fever swamps, not only was he displaying ignorance of the blogs, it probably means he’s so fu**king stupid he doesn’t know what germs are. He probably thinks the sun revolves around the earth.

Of course, he might have been speaking metaphorically. But, these people are often literalists, so maybe not.

Cozumel, thanks. Its a problem with us snake handlers that we sometimes think God won’t have witnesses.

dave:

Thanks for the Chronicle link.

I’ll read it tomorrow when I can keep my eyes open.

Goodnight, all!

I really do need a link to the coat hanger with blood spots graphic of a couple of weeks ago, to use in my Con Law class tomorrow when we discuss Roe v. Wade.

good point, cleter! bravo for envoking the dark and middle ages where the miasmic rethugs lurk.

Blogger envy.

It’s a classic Shelly Berman routine.

“The morning after…the night before. My tounge…is asleep…and my teeth…itch!”

Good times, good times!

But about the “bloggers” question, couldn’t somebody like Atrios go have a phone conversation or, better yet, a face-to-face under a flag of truce to see (a) if there’s an issue and (b) if so, if it could be defused?

Not everything has to be done on the internets to make it virtually real, right?

You have to understand the Philly thing in context. Philadelphia Dems believe–and say explicitly–that they have the last really functional city machine. While Daley has a personal machine in Chicago, it’s truly personal, in a way that his father’s wasn’t. It exists around him, and only Daley keeps it together.

Philly has a real machine–where the union leaders and ward leaders get together and divvy up the spoils together. Since Democrats are guaranteed victory, the only thing they have to fear is a challenge within the party. Bloggers and new activists are therefore the only enemy that really matters to them.

When Campbell formed the committee, she said explicitly that the machine had to reform its practices–not its ethics–to survive and learn to outcompete its challengers.

They are dead serious about stamping out insurgents that threaten their turf, and it has nothing to do with ideology; they’re good lefties in their voting. It’s about dollars.

The lesson activists will have to learn from this is the lesson that the insurgent conservatives learned; you can’t always work with the system. Sometimes, you have to be willing to tear it down. The religious right is willing to go after Republican powerbrokers it disagrees with; activists on the left have to be willing to do the same, not just with Lieberman but across the board. Power is the only thing these people respect.

Hell, I’m just happy they finally found the word “fight.â€

Yeah, but about US?! WhatEVER! What, are there job openings in their circular firing squad?

I am beginning to feel increasingly that we are on our own, here, people. They abandoned Murtha, swiftboated Hackett, and ran from Feingold like he farted in church. And now they’re using that kind of combative language toward us, the base?

They fucking deserve to lose at this point!

George Will mentions Fitz in his latest article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01955.html

Is anybody else faintly creeped out the juxtaposition of Nancy Pelosi’s grim visage and the phrase “The Morning After?”

Her eyes keep following me. It’s creepy.

Prof — Scott’s coathanger here.

puppethead: The blog community is the Democratic Party’s open source think tank. It has the potential to be bigger than than all of the GOP think tanks combined.

Wow. What an insight.

(from one of the mosquitos in the fever swamp)

I hate it when we are branded as a bunch of angry misfits.

Angry, yes, but not misfits!

Prof- #60

I did a Google on “South Dakota, Firedoglake, rape” and got to the FDL archive – http://firedoglake.blogspot.co…..se-of.html

The graphic you are looking for was titled “New State Logo” but it no longer available in the archive. Said it was from “http://photobucket.com/”

looks like it is free to join photobucket. Hope this helps.

RedDan at 41,

Absolutely. Further the resource drain isn’t that big. The trick is to make the medium (and let people know!) the norm or new standard.

T Rex-
Exactly! I want to shake that Carol Campbell person and say “No, no, the enemy is OVER THERE! We’re your BASE, you fool!”

Jane, big thanks.

al-Scooter, someone else is old enough to remember Shelly Berman’s routine?

Sorry, Prof. Guess I was wrong. Glad Jane is on the J – O – B, though!

Good luck tomorrow!

GSD @ #45

Eeeehhh…That’s biznezz, because they know that 1) the units are going to fly off the shelves in the initial release period (And nothing warms a Walton heart more than Cha-Ching!), 2) no Fundie worth their well-clutched KJV will be paying for one, unless it’s on the down low with the lights off, thus real money trumps the imaginary and 3) Wal-Mart’s position as more-equal-than-others purveyor of dry goods to the American outback means they’re in a comfortable position to tell the Star-Spangled Taliban ‘Learn to knit with homemade twine if you don’t like it, Jedediah’, should they be so foolish as to bandy the idea of a boycott about beyond what loose talk the corporation deems reasonable.

Don’t these people understand we want them to win? I get the strong sense that to many politicians, they view us as a threat. I don’t see it that way, not until I run for political office…

TRex at 65 (FDL, et al, see if you can make these sort of references a “right click” sort of thing),

You have inspired me to look back at how new parties are formed. There is definately one in the making.

dave — that Pelosi article was very interesting. I certainly hope you’re not right and she never reads her diaries, that they are pure drive-bys. That would be incredibly stupid at this stage of the game and she does not strike me as stupid. But even Jane Harmon stuck around to answer some of her critics, and people respected her for it. I think the collateral damage would’ve been a lot less had Pelosi chosen to do so.

Alaskan_Pete >”…Fire the consultant cocktail class.”

Uhhh, me thinks it should be

cocktail consultant class

“A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.” – John F. Kennedy

53 tryggth says:

Huckermill, depressing but probably true.

Now, if Pelosi (or whoever) actually used this medium to “rap†[parenthetical comment omitted] with their constituency we would all be better off.

… But they wouldn’t be, would they?

So, the next generation of politician’s (and it’s like science, you have to outlive the fuddy-duddies) will have staffs that can handle the comments and appease the angry commentors. Don’t know if I look forward to that or not…

______________

Dem staff staph infections.

Could lead to netroot defections.

Where’s the real fever swamp?

In the minds and words and actions of projection-minded “I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I” sucker-punching “preemptive” (”it’s all the rage; alla kids are doin’ it!”) Republicans.

And in the cage-trained reactionary minds of cynical and cowardly Dem strategists, consultants, insular beltway denizens and the like.

A veritable bacteria cafeteria.

Jane,

I love your blog, other left wing blogs and share your goals of honest competent government. I also beleive that the left wing bloggers deserve a lot of credit for sticking with stories and helping them stay alive until they reach the mass media.

A point of criticism I would offer is the growing sense of hubris and narcissism in these blogs (including yours) now that national political fortunes are turning in a direction we support. Currently, blog readers are something like 2% of the electorate and in spite of the fact that we are highly informed, that doesn’t translate into a dominant political force.

Maybe you should go through a thought experiment and ask yourself how you would approach a personal election campaign in a district that was split 50-50 Dem/Gop. Would you use the word “wingnut” in your daily rhetoric? I think not.

You’re actually a politician too Jane and your constituents are your readers. They love it when you slam right wingers. But your prose would offend many other and that’s why the Democrats need to keep the blogs at arms length.

Keep up the great work.

Rich

Prof >”I really do need a link to the coat hanger with blood spots graphic…”

I went to the old site and did a few searches and couldn`t find anything; went as far back as early February & nada

“…It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins…” – Benjamin Franklin

These people are fucking CRAZY. We are the people! Without us they’re dead. Or maybe they’re all Republicans……a scanal there if ever I saw one. Either that or the Democrats are the biggest collection of idiots on the planet…I’m just saying…to quote Jane and Christy

That Rich isn’t me.

sorry ot,
IMO, The Clinton scandal re: the Lincoln bedroom doesn’t hold a candle to this..

Is That Really Ann Coulter???
I’m not sure, but it does look like her. How stupid do you have to be to take nekkid pictures of yourself in the White House?
http://www.moxiegrrrl.com/2006…..ulter.html

Writing in from Pelosi’s district, I have to second Dave’s assessment above. Nancy Pelosi is widely viewed aas a sell-out and a let-down. She appears in public only rarely, and when she does, she gets hissed. She’s a corporate stooge, and (like Dianne Feinstein) is in office mainly to carry water for developers and sweatshop profiteers.

The other Rich was asking an interesting question…

How does FDL move to the next step.

And, with apologies to FDL super-minions ( :-) ) for presenting this answer, they are doing it by what they do.

One of the most pathetic aspects of the Philadelphia Democratic Party, as with other Democratic party organizations, is that they don’t even have a web site or email feature allowing Democrats to communicate with them. It is as though they are in a top down mindset; they set the agenda, distribute it to the voters, and everybody fall in. They appear to view anyone who wants to engage in some actual communication with them as an enemy that needs to be “taken on”. If this is truley the case, the Democratic party is in worse shape than I thought. Here’s hoping that this particular Stalinist party approach is limited to Philadelphia.

#74 Prof,

Last of the Mohicans, we are.

I got to see him live in his prime, in a club environment when I was barely old enough. I still remember one of his political lines:

“We liberals just can’t wait to lose so we can shoot our wounded! We just love shooting our wounded!”

Kind of sad that 40 years later, that line is so very on-topic tonight.

I don’t understand how the Kos site works, that’s why I rarely go there. How do you post a comment to a diary?

BTW I wasn’t very impressed with Pelosi’s diary. I didn’t feel like she was talking to US–it struck me as more like a press conference (statement only–no questions allowed).

I certainly hope you’re not right and she never reads her diaries, that they are pure drive-bys.

I don’t follow Kos’ site that closely, but from the comments I’ve read there, that seems to be the general feeling. You might want to check with some more devoted Kossacks.

But even Jane Harmon stuck around to answer some of her critics, and people respected her for it.

Actually, IIRC, she stuck around for about fifteen minutes, and then split, which pissed the natives off even more than if she’d not “participated” at all. Again, checking in with more committed Kossacks on this would be a good idea.

Rich at 82:
I don’t see it.
Rich, my tax dollars are paying for State sponsored torture, secret Eastern European prisons and the demolition of the 4th Amendment.

I am very uncomfortable with this high altitude criticism you make.
“A point of criticism I would offer is the growing sense of hubris and narcissism in these blogs (including yours) now that national political fortunes are turning in a direction we support. Currently, blog readers are something like 2% of the electorate and in spite of the fact that we are highly informed, that doesn’t translate into a dominant political force.”
Do you have a link? Is there a particular position that Jane or Christy has taken in a specific post which you can provide as a specific example of this hubris or narcissim?
I find the use of those words very unsatisfactory. Jane and Christy post, the rest of us comment. Are you criticizing Jane and Christy’s posts or the comment’s section? IMO Jane and Christy, and Pach, and the other guest posters are leading a fight for the soul of our country. A fight which is lightyears from being over, and in which we are decided underdogs.
Please, we need all the help we can get. In no way is my comment intended to cut off discussion.
Also, if you know of someone, who in your option does it better, please provide a link and let me look for myself. Speaking only for myself I felt an air of condescencion in your comment towards Jane and Christy.
Also you made the statement that blog readers account for something like 2% of the electorate. That’s a very interesting statistic. Do you have a link for that?

OT and Re Comments #5 and #12

“Netizens” is an ancient internet term, predating the web itself. I first heard it on the usenet newsgroups and assumed that it originated there, but it could be even older.

ah well, not the first time I have been late to a party! LOL at myself!

neurophius

Imagine yourself being in a room with 5000 people and trying to talk when they are all screaming at you. That’s the effect that pol’s like Pelosi, Kerry et al get when they post on a blog like Kos.

Sad when you think of it that so many little children all think at once that THEY should get attention.

The way of warrior teaches that you don’t respond to attacks like “spineless” with similar tactics. When bloggers learn to have civil discourse with and about politicians they might get more done.

If you want respect you have to treat people with respect. Politicians aren’t in office for the every whim of bloggers and their constituents are from both parties in reality. Everyone needs to learn to work together and play nice with others. Unions get that, other lontime political activists get that. When will bloggers?

dave — no I followed the Harman diary. She did stick around, it wasn’t for long but people did engage her in a respectful fashion for doing so.

I really like Dkos, & I read all of the posts on their homepage every day, but the threads are a bit crazy. They are way too fast moving and confusing IMO.

You have to register to comment there (link on the right side of the page). Once you register, & are logged in, it will show you how many new posts are on a thread from the last time you opened it. Once you open a comment thread, all of the posts on that thread are counted as read.

I guess it’s better when you have that many people posting that you can reply to a particular post instead of at the bottom, but it’s still a rat race nonetheless.

liberal realist:
Could you provide an example from an FDL post?

Rich

If Jane Hamsher is on the campaign trail trying to convince voters to support Democratic candidates retail style, your point is well taken. However, as it turns out, that does not appear to be the main strength of FDL. Its strength is organizing a large number of like minded activists to move politics to a progressive agenda. Large number here means, enough to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to the financial support for a candidate who needs it to win an election. Keep your eye on the ball. It’s the money that makes the website relevant at this point. Relevant here means, causing a candidate to listen and support the FDL progressive agenda. Let other AOL type political websites do the retail work, and let Jane Hamsher be Jane Hamsher. She and Redd are good at it, and I’m glad to see you too support them.

Tom

liberal realist:
I understand what you are saying, but and it is a big but, I write old fashioned style, fax, email and phone my elected rep and senators with nary a response. They do not speak to their constituents. I did try to find out where and when I could meet with them during the new found St. Pat’s break to no avail. They are not Kings or Kings, and I beg you to tell me, how do I speak to them? How does my voice get heard? I try to have civil discourse but they don’t listen.

What John Casper said (No. 93).

they are not Kings or QUEENS is what I meant.

and I feel like a vassal. Decidedly and happily not a monarch of any kind.

FWIW the “new breed” troll over at the HuffPo doesn’t engage in Coulter-esque name calling because they started banning them. So the professional GOP trolls changed their tactics. They spend most of the post identifying themselves as “liberals” and then throw out something really shitty and insulting in the middle and say “you do us liberals a disservice with…”

Not that is applies to anyone in this thread (*cough* Rich *cough*) but don’t think we’re stupid.

“identifying themselves as ‘liberals’â€

Jane: you mean like “liberal realist” No. 93?

angie 101,

I get the same lack of any response from politicians here in VA. All of my reps & senators have always been republicans so it’s no surprise to me that they don’t reply. Sen Warner actually has sent me a response on a few occasions, but on each occasion it was just a generic form letter that didn’t address my concerns at all.

I email & call them all the time anyway. I’m not about to lay down my sword.

Again, with apologies to those who know better than me:

Happy Birthday Colin. Faster please.

Good night all.

John Casper

Just noting the general tone on diaries such as Pelosi’s, Kerry’s etc on Kos, the HuffPo and blogs in general. I didn’t metion FDL, I mentioned Kos, in discussing the Pelosi diary there and responding to neurophius.

It’s an interesting phenomena, but think about this- you’re at a political rally and there are 5000 people there and the politician speaks. Do those 5000 act like children, engage in namecalling and use obscenities when the politician speaks? No. So why do it on the internet.

If your friends and family talked to you the way some people respond to politicians on the blogs would that be acceptable to you? My guess is no.

When a politician takes the time to post on a blog it’s like hearing him or her speak at rally and if you are lucky they will answer a few questions. They are busy, busy, busy people. They don’t have time to hang on the blogs and honestly why would they want to. Have you seen the crap that is posted around the blogosphere? You would not want anyone saying things about you on the internet would you? Calling you names – besmirching your record because they don;t like one a few things about you.

It’s psych 101 IMHO.

I’m sorry, I meant “liberal realist” No. 96

What a suprise, Jane, n’est ce pas? Those newly minted liberals cain’t spell but can read from the hymnal. Yes, sans- culotte, we continue the good fight, til we win– thanks for your affirmation of how yucky it is to have rethugs as Senators and Reps. that never even answer, much less engage. Thanks to you, too, for understanding my very discombobulated postings.

Jane,

Has anyone suggested to Ms. Huffington that she avail herself of the “tracking” service offered by Hubris Sonic?

It would be very, very interesting to expand the sphere of that particular little project, if you know what I mean…

Could you perhaps send the idea along to HuffPo moderators and see what they say?

(And yes, I do work with Mr. Sonic)…

Angie

When I send emails to many of my local pols I often get a response. Sometimes by mail instead of email. It’s hard for anyone to keep up with a huge glut of correspondence – my job requires it, it’s time consuming. My point is that bloggers want respect and want to be heard, we all want that in life, but it’s easier to listen to and respond to conversatin and correspondence that is reasonable and polite.

Don’t stop doing what you are doing – keep contacting them. It does make a difference. I’ve seen some great things happen via the internet and our politicians working together.

If your friends and family talked to you the way some people respond to politicians on the blogs would that be acceptable to you? My guess is no.

Keep guessing.

Adults should be able to handle anger and bare-bones, no-holds-barred confrontational argument about life-and-death issues.

The fact of the matter is that if listening had been a top priority before now, the level of rage would NEVER have reached the current volcanic proportions.

Who is to blame for the anger – those who have been ignored, used, and excluded for years, or those who spend years dismissing the concerns and inputs of their constituents and then get all surprised when we get REALLY FUCKING PISSED that people whose SALARIES we PAY out of OUR POCKETS ignore our concerns, vote against our interests, and betray our values while kowtowing to fundamentalist dickheads who appoint PEDOPHILES, INCOMPETENTS, and HOT-TUB PONZIE SCHEME CRONIES to positions of extreme, life-and-death importance.

So stuff that in your fucking civility.

They are busy, busy, busy people.

HAHAHAHAHA

One has to ask, exactly what are they busy, busy, busy doing?

Re: #47 – Dave Says
I caught C-Span’s replay of Pelosi’s SF apppearance Dave referenced. She is a tough dame and fast on her feet and very experienced in such settings. Nonetheless the mood of the crowd grew restless quickly. While I couldn’t help but admire her digging in and making all the right body moves I was soon struck by how close she came to melting down. Turning her back slowly as the protesters shouted her down she paced with prayer-like folded hands and let them go at it – a very long pause indeed – and she weathered it admiredly. Nonetheless she had lost her audience and clearly knew it yet she stuck around for the last word.

I agree with Dave she hasn’t enjoyed rowdy SF very much, ever, yet that night was particularly tough. Here on the Monterey Peninsula, Clint Eastwood & Leon Panetta country, to our great delight, stalwart Congressman Sam Farr, has far greater courage than Pelosi. Yet far fewer responsibilities than her leadership role demands.

Just saying I’m not ready to give up on her entirely and meanwhile continue to hope & trust she is as smart as she seems & may yet get the real mood of Californians, across the political spectrum.

Liberal Realist,

You have a point, but it only goes so far, and the fact of the matter is that polite correspondence has been ignored, file-13′ed, and generally brushed off for so long that it is now at the point where respect and polite correspondence is a privilege, not a right.

Politicians in our Party have been brushing off our concerns when we are polite, with the excuse that our input was unnecessary…now they use the excuse that we are too rude…later they will use the excuse that…what?

And then they will be out on their asses.

Pelosi and her ilk are unavailable to the real world including here in San Francisco (not the real world) …they live and travel in a bubble getting feedback from their groupies…the longer they are in the bubble (years) the less they know about what is going on and the more focused they are on their make up and how they will come across on camera…they are essentially worthless though they should be the party elders who guard the wisdom and dole it out to worthy seekers…because they are polluted after 8 years, they should be chucked out like the president and fresh blood brought in reflecting changing times and issues with a large dose of idealism…for all those of you who are waiting for this bunch of senators and representatives to stand up courageously for something there is only this: “we are the ones we’ve been waiting for”.

Red Dan

Thank you for sharing. Actually I’m one of those really pissed off people. We are handle our anger differently. Some people don’t respond well to abusive behavior and pay for they salaries or not no one deserves it. It’s not okay to beat the crap out of a whore you pay for is it?

http://www.berksmontnews.com/s…..&rfi=6

Still playing the center role. He needs to drop the world better off without Saddam thing and put it into context of what has happened to American moral authority.

RedDan — “tracking service” offered by Hubris Sonic? Don’t know what that is.

So let’s see, if we write a book instead we can say anything we damn well please about politics but if we express ourselves in everyday real world language writing in ways how we normally talk in unsanitized candid terms, on blogs that cost money to run, we’re bad for the party? I’ll take us thoughtful truth talkers anyday over scripted genuine-imitation political pontificating.

Jane,

Would you be willing to email me and clarify the issue? I was given the impression that there were some projects underway.

No spam I promise!

Red Dan

I think part of it goes back to the issue of them being in office to serve ALL of their constituents in both parties once they are elected. Again imagine being in a room with even 100 people all screaming at you. What would you do?

Liberal Realist:

First of all, this:

Thank you for sharing. Actually I’m one of those really pissed off people. We are handle our anger differently. Some people don’t respond well to abusive behavior and pay for they salaries or not no one deserves it. It’s not okay to beat the crap out of a whore you pay for is it?

pretty much meets every definition of incoherent rambling, and only if I squint really hard can I make any sense of your comment…and if the limited recognizable syntax is properly decoded, all I can see are strawmen, miles and miles of strawmen.

Did you really, really mean to analogize between a constituent enraged at their elected representative and a John beating up a hooker?

Because if you really did mean to make that assinine comparison, then I think, perhaps, you have many more problems than how “rude” some commenters over at Kos can be.

I say we adopt the moniker “fever swamp dems” as a badge of honor. A clear deliniation of, say, Joementum and Leahey or Murtha and Hillary.

“When a politician takes the time to post on a blog it’s like hearing him or her speak at rally” (sic) liberal realist no. 109

OK,so most of the good politicians I know, before they speak to a group, take the trouble to find out something about their audience–who they are and what their concerns are. That is one of the reasons they have staff people. And I don’t mean anything superficial. That is why, in Pelosi’s case, “I didn’t feel like she was talking to US”–that is to say, the liberal blogosphere. Yes, she was posting at Kos, not FDL, but I think there is a lot of overlap. Not having read the comments to her diaries, I don’t know whether the commenters were “act[ing] like children, engag[ing] in namecalling or use[ing] obscenities.” My point is that before anyone had an opportunity to react however they might, she failed to hit the target with her initial remarks. I don’t think she gets it. Not sticking taround to listen to and respond to even a few comments made the situation worse. Maybe she will mitigate that by posting again, in a way that is responsive to the responsible comments that are made in reference to today’s diary. Or maybe she won’t.

Except, Liberal realist, you are NOT in a room with people screaming at you.

It is text, written on the internet.

It can be downloaded, printed, and mined for useful material, good suggestions, and positive steps forward.

There is no person red-faced and spittle spraying, shouting in your face.

You need to rethink your analogy, big time.

And, regardless, since I HAVE been in a room with 100 or more people, and I HAVE given talks, presentations and made serious technical, political, and emotional challenges to people in such a setting, and I HAVE been faced with 100 shouting people…

I would think that a professional career politician would have figured out how to deal with it…it’s their JOB.

RedDan, I’m not sure it’s a good idea to put your email addy out there like that, or you may be the one getting spam. So, to Jane, maybe after you have read RD’s post, you can scrub the email? And, RD, Jane has had my email for a long time, and no spam here (or maybe I am misreading that part).

liberal realist,
Thanks for your response.
I think what you are missing, badly, is that liberals in very blue states such have moved farther to the right than they have to.
In part IMO, they have done this, because the corporate media won’t print what they say unless it is Rove’s talking points.
I would invite you to read the posts at FDL for a week. They are without exception, thoughtful and very insightful. Often they are also very funny.
IMO, your “one pol” to 5,000 bloggers is problematic. No one, least of all Jane or Christy are asking Dems to hang out on blogs. We are demanding intelligent soundbytes and policy decisions from our elected officials, (1) ending the Iraq occupation and keeping America safe; (2) Choice (3) Sustainable and affordable energy (4) Accountability. (5) Paying down the debt and investing in Americans and sustainable business practices.
I am sure I am leaving out several, at least, but those are the kinds of things that Americans want from their elected leaders.
We aren’t getting it. IMO Jane nailed your concerns with this sentence:
“What they’re battling is informed voters who follow the news in real-time, hate being patronized and don’t fall for the kitchen scraps gobbled up by people who are only paying half attention to this shit.â€
Whether intentionally or not, you appear to support “dummying up Jane and Christy….” to keep the pols happy.
It’s the high quality (not to mention high volume) blogs such as Kos, FDL that are driving the quality of political discourse up, not down. The WaPooh and the NYT’s are now on notice that we will bring it to their attention when they prostitute themselves as they did in their pre-war stories about wmd. However,well intentioned your comments, imo they miss the accomplishments that Jane, Christy, and those they routinely link to have already made. As I said, we need all the help we can get, so I hope you drink deeply of their daily wisdom.

If I was privileged enough to have 100 or 5000 talking to me, I would listen and think and listen some more… and then act! Is it such hard work to do the people’s work with a staff? Because if it is, move over and let adults or even young’uns take over.

John at AmericaBlog has jumped the shark–

I just got banned for this post:
_________________________________________________________
John, Please go ahead and ban me!

To think, I used to recommend your site as a must read. Whoopsy-daisy.

Kos has his faults, but he has never behaved as you have in the last month or two. First, the anti-Cynthia McKinney stuff, on your part, was damn near unbelievable.

Second, you should emulate Bill O’Reilly, and do several years “hosting” Inside Editon, or the equivalent. The glamour of celebrities obviously has a real effect on you. Why not indulge it?

Third, you have a thin skin. Mildly critical criticisms can result in banishment, even from people who have been with you a while and established some credibility.

Finally, you’ve never taken a side in the Blogosphere’s “Lieberman accountability project.” Would you explain? Please.

Sorry to be such a damn gadfly. But I believe you deserve to be provoked, and understand, you only win by taking several steps back, and acting rationally.

Do you have the ability to effing listen? I think not, but I’d love to be surprised.
____________________________________________________________

I’m sure I’m not entirely right, but Aravosis is now responding emotionally, and not rationally. Even after his melt-down, I want to support him. But how can I when he can brook absolutely no dissent??

RD, oops, I see I did misread the “spam” part. Sorry.

VG — good suggestion.

Red Dan

LOL! Yeah that was an off the top analogy. It’s been a long day. But listen there is a tendency of people to say thing on the internet that they would say in public or to people that simply can’t have discussion with about things like politics. There’s an anonimity factor on the internet that makes people feel free to say what they want.

Just random thoughts on this. I enjoy FDL and Kos and all the great blogs out there. I lurk more than comment.

Valley Girl,

No worries on my part – it’s a gmail account that is publically posted in my kos profile, has been spammed to such a degree that I no longer even care, and it doesn’t really bother me…

And I was promising Jane no spam from me…although I see you caught that.

Thanks for the concern.

Jane can delete if she wants to, but it really doesn’t matter to me.

liberal realist no. 119 says, “Some people don’t respond well to abusive behavior”

So what specific rude behavior by Kos readers was Pelosi responding to,in her post that, as I said above, was not responsive to their concerns?

puppethead 29:

excellent

Liberal Realist

The difference between verbal communication and online communication is not that online activists are hiding behind the keyboard and throwing shit across the screen, while rallys are well behaved.

It’s a different form of communication and with different actors. The people read blogs and stay active and informed are a different audience than some of those at rallys who are there to be fed by pols… If those at rallys are pissed off, then instead of asking those online to be more polite, maybe those at rallys need to see the bullshit that happens and get more pissed off.

And politicians who can’t handle a dose of honest anger and honesty should go just go back under a rock… Based on the complacency of most of these politicians, they don’t have a clue. time for an education.

GSD 45
(re WalMart selling Brokeback DVD):

check out d r i f t g l a s s

(warning – long rambling post, but worth it)

John Casper

I read a good does of blogs including FDL and Kos everyday. Also read a lot of MSM and see the differences. Corporatism is big problem. Ask anyone who owns a small business – I work for one. Everyone has a different style of communicating. Jane & Christy do just great – just offering some food for thought. There’s a lot of great wisdom on the blogs and yes much of it is effective in dealing with the politicans and the MSM.

Oh, and “liberalrealist”???

One begins to wonder if This is you.

If so, how about fucking off?

If not, then I apologize.

John A. has his moons and stars all mixed up just now– it’s a celestial thing, he is a good man…
and a blogger I have respect for. Being grumpy is ok by me– think of the mess we are in!

RedDan no. 142

Be careful. “liberal realist” many not be one of those people who “respond well to abusive behavior.” :)

neurophius,

Well, if this post over at “liberalrealist.blogspot.com” is any indication, and IF it is the same person…

then THIS:

If the Democrats as a party don’t change their image, they have no hope in either 2006 or 2008. Hopefully President Bush will honor his promises to privatize social security and keep taxes low. This Blog endorsed him for exactly those reasons, and now its time for him to deliver.

tells you all you need to know about a) where LR is coming from, and b) how much I would care.

Again, IF they are the same “liberalrealist” – if not, then I retract.

Jane,

With all her engaging the Kossaks after posting her blog, and perfunctorily at that, Harmon makes no effort to reassess her policies, or perform the oversight that is required of her as the ranking member of the Intelligence Committee.

Before the vote on the AUMF I wrote her to express my strong opposition to a war in Iraq. The letter I got back basiclly said she was going to vote for it because she believed, by pressuring Saddam, it was our “best chance to avert a war.” Well, now that it is painfully clear that Bush always intended to go to war and would never have considered any action by Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions acceptable, do we hear any complaints by Ms. Harmon? Do we hear any outrage that she was conned into supporting a disastrous war? Do we hear a tough stance on the NSA wiretaps? I think not.

No, what we hear is that we need a “terrorist surveilance program” and that although it should be carried out under FISA, the real culprit is the leaker. She may post on a blog, but she sure don’t listen.

Good news is that Ｈarmon has a credible challenger this year in her district. She’s Marcy Winograd and she’s somebody that deserves our support. The worst that could happen is that Harmon might get a scare and wake up. However, in a 70% Dem district the winner of the primary will go to Congress, Winograd is making waves among the locals (hey, we’re by the beach) and she would make a great Progressive Congresswoman. She’s a worthy cause and a great candidate and could use more attention from the Internets. Check her out.

http://winogradforcongress.com/

As always,

Love you, Jane.

RedDan no. 145

Yes, I see what you mean. Have we been feeding a “genteel troll”? (Genteel–well, except for the whore remark…)

“What they’re battling are informed voters who follow the news in real-time, hate being patronized and don’t fall for the kitchen scraps gobbled up by people who are only paying half attention to this shit.”

THANK YOU!!

Honestly, this seems to be one of the Democrats’ biggest blind spots. They have gotten so complacent and flabby over the years feeding us the same old pre-chewed nonsense over and over rather than actually engaging the electorate in any sort of substantial exchange of ideas, that they simply don’t seem to know what to do with the progressive blogosphere other than to treat it either as beneath their notice, or else as some sort of threat to be dealt with.

I think you nailed it, Jane, and I’d never really thought of it in precisely that way before. It really does seem like it’s the prospect of being confronted by informed voters that apparently disturbs so many Beltway Democrats. Most of them aren’t scrappers, especially those who have been in DC for awhile, and being confronted by a growing number of informed voters asking them tough questions and demanding tough actions from them really forces that issue. They either have to remember what it’s like to BE a scrapper, or else they basically have to admit that they don’t have it in them anymore.

Part of me sympathizes with them. I mean, it’s easy to fall into a rut where you rely on rhetoric and pre-determined responses. It’s not just the Democrats who do this either. I just watched Dana Rohrbacher make a complete elephantine ass of himself on a rerun of Bill Maher’s show a little while ago, basically spouting off Republican rhetoric that hasn’t been vaguely relevant for ages now.

But goddamnit, the Democrats can’t just duck and cover and try to stay in that same comfortable little rut. It’s only going to lose them more elections, especially now that the Republican Party is hoist by their own petard, as the Democrats have apparently been sitting waiting to happen. It makes no sense whatsoever that ANY of them would treat liberal bloggers as a problem to be countered, rather than as a resource from which to draw.

(By the way, well done on the Shelley Berman references up there! “How did I break a window? I see. Yeah. Were you fond of that cat?”) ;^)

Jane,

could you please cut out stuff like this from earlier today.

“Not only did he allow possibly the biggest crime boss in modern history onto his show to babble a bunch of bullshit completely unchecked, once the cameras were off he couldn’t get DeLay’s knob in his mouth fast enough:”

hey rich, good call.

Back to the thread here…why do we keep all these people who don’t represent us? THAT is the question…

Off topic, Rant warning:
The press is jumping on the Duke story about their LaCrosse tea,. I just want to repeat that I think this is a very important story on many different levels. One of the most important imo is the unbelieveably negligent way it was handled by Duke’s administration. No one is questioning the rape, it happened. The only question is who. No one is questioning the underage drinking and the hiring of a stripper. This was all known by the Duke Administration on Monday, March 15. They refused to publish this information until March 24, because Duke’s men’s basketball team didn’t lose in the NCAA tournament until March 23. Administrators at a college campus, such as any community, have an obligation to put “Safety First.” Duke didn’t inform the community that a rape had taken place on campus, or that the LaCrosse team had hired a stripper on Campus property, or that the LaCrosse team had been involved in underage drinking/public drunkeness, again. This is classic enabling behavior. If you don’t hold people accountable, this is what happens.
It is this complete lack of transparency at the highest levels of a very prestigous universtity that is getting lost. IMO the firing of the LaCrosse coach today was just another attempt to deflect attention away from those higher up in Duke’s Administration. These are safety issues that Duke suppressed for the sake of public relations.

angie 104
so which is it? you’re vassalating.

puppethead #29
“The blog community is the Democratic Party’s open source think tankâ€

Forgot to give a shout out for this line. Sure beats the secret backroom wheeling and dealings, we’re a vocal and visual WYSIWYG crowd. It will be interesting to see how Pelosi & Co talk about the blogosphere influence and fundraising after the elections this fall, but for them they have to face dealing with us now, today, tomorrow.

I’m puzzled as to why the Philadelphia Democratic Party would act like they got Lieberbotomized? Why are they playing right into the Repubs wishes to shut us up and marginalize if not sabotage our collective massive talents? They need to get with the program.

Morris Sheppard — glad to see someone is challenging Harmon, she’s a tool. I’ll check her out the woman running against her.

It is 11:58 in Santa Fe NM. My birthday expires in 2 minutes. 67 years, never thought I would make it that far. Told my kids the only present I need is the see the people take back the congress this year, and my America. Now concerning Campbell. I sure hope he is talking about wingnut bloggers. With the blogs, I finaly have a channel to express my frustration with the MF’ers that are FUCKING UP AMERICA! Sorry I really was trying to be polite. But I couldn’t help myself. I am truly distressed about what kind of America my grandkids and kids will inherit. Sorry for an old farts rambling.Pleaser excuse me. The religous right made me do it. Finally, Jane and Redd ROCK! You ladies give me hope for the America I pray for. One final thought, Semper Fi, it hurts me so much to see my much, much, younger Marines dying for such a failed, fucked up war. Sorry if I pissed anyone off.Thanks for letting me vent. Taking back America. 50.00 bucks at a time.

Happy birthday, HufNpuf.

Well, gee! Seems like the netizens finally woke up to the fact that the current Democratic “leadership” is the PROBLEM!

Yes folks…people like Pelosi; did you know that she NEVER comments in the thread that her posts create?

Nice huh? She and the rest of the spineless Dems are not concerned with what we are concerned with: Freedom, the political economic and social health of our nation. They are only concerned with their personal power.

They have to go. We might need them for this election but we will never build a progressive nation until they are replaced.
.

John Casper and Red Dan

Oh geez. LOL! Better find a different username I guess – hell no that isn’t me! Maybe I should call myself devil’s advocate. Just offering a different view of what politicians might think about the blogosphere.

Thanks for the laugh though.

Has Pelosi taken a stand on the preznit’s illegal NSA spying on Americans without warrants program? Aside from taking gratuitous shots at Sen. Feingold, I mean. Just wondering.

Jane,

Another thing a beauty, geez LouEEZ woman you ken really write. I am gettin’ really worried at the length of time it’s takin the establishment Democrats to even begin to understand the bloggosphere…as a card carryin’ DNC person, I thought I had a pretty good understandin’ of the fight between the DC establishment including the elected leadership and Howard Dean’s DNC operation. But I am getting a really sick feeling that the Democratic establishment has decided that beating Dean and maintaining the status quo is more important than winning in November. Please tell me I’m wrong but I don’t think anyone in the elected leadership really wants to be in the majority after November.

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE SURPRISED AT ANYTHING!!

My kos post:
http://www.dailykos.com/commen…..81/141#141

Did you file an ETHICS COMPLAINT? (132+ / 0-)

When an ethics complaint is filed on:
Rep. Ney
Rep. Doolittle
Rep. Jim Ryun
Rep. Delay
Rep. Jerry Lewis
Rep. Randy Cunningham

We might consider supporting you!

Each and every one has serious ethical issues and God willing will be charged with crimes.
Why is it that a congressman is in prison and ethics complains have NEVER been filed?

Just a simple question…

AND if you are SO much for ethics, why have you not supported Sen. Feingold’s censure resolution. IT IS THE SAME!
The Rule of Law applies across the board.

hufNpuf, Happy Birthday! Your post was right on and I think we say almost identical things every single day here, so jump in the water is fine.

Marci Winograd is a PDA candidate.She’s getting lots of endorsement. Seems to be a good bet to take on Harmon.

New guest blogger Late Nite thread upstairs…

Liberal Realist: Pelosi was on “the News Hour with Jim Lehrer” a few nights ago. She spent 20 minutes saying…absolutely nothing! She was as vapid as George Allen and Evan Bayh combined. Last month I called her office in San Francisco to ask why she was dismissing Russ Feingold’s censure motion when she is not in the Senate and the motion had not even been debated in the Senate yet. Her staffer hung up on me (twice) and that pretty much told me everything I needed to know about Pelosi.

And what is this “busy, busy, busy” crap? They’re all busy and yet some actually TAKE THE TIME TO RESPOND to their constituents. My congressman Jim McDermott is one example. His office is very accessible and willing to engage with constituents, as is McDermott himself. Anne Holliday mentioned my old congressman Leon Panetta from Santa Cruz. He was the first congressman I ever voted for, and it was precisely because he made himself available to engage with constituents.

Pelosi is not respected by her democratic peers in the House. They are waiting until after November to boot her from the leadership post because she has not proven herself to be a leader.

The netroots (or “netizens”, per Jane) are not only looking for leaders. We are on our way to creating them as well. When that happens, the Pelosis, Bayhs, Leibermans, Hoyers and Cantwells of the world will be left behind.

New Thread.

liberalrealist,

Consider me skeptical. Tone is same, outlook is similar, view of liberal blogosphere appears in line with tone and viewpoint of liberalrealist blogspot.

I am still looking…be warned.

shoephone

Don’t mistake me for a Pelosi fan. Like I said just a little devils advocacy.

greg in #64 makes a good point. I’m inclined to agree that the real threat that Philadelphia politicians see is the progressive/liberal blogs. They seem to be very active in the Philly area, and they probably don’t like the machine very much. The Republicans in Philly are largely inconsequential. These are among the folks I had in mind when I wrote the other day that I didn’t want my money going to corrupt party machines.

I think Pelosi and the whole consultant class have just forgotten that they work for us. They’re so used to cocktail parties and corporate plane rides that they don’t understand how we’re not jumping at their orders. Maybe it’s because we’re here to win, not eat free weenies.

I was at Marina School when Pelosi held her town hall meeting. She was confronted with demonstrators who would not let her speak. She asked them down to the front of the hall and they stood at the foot of the stage throughout her discussion and Q&A. It was a marked contrast to our Preznit’s canned appearances, drove her Secret Service detail crazy, and made me proud of her.

She’s not perfect as a national Democratic leader, and she’s not perfect as a Congresswoman. But consider the alternatives, as Jane did in her original post. Do you guys know Steny Hoyer? He’s little-K Street-project, Mr. Corporate Democrat — and he’ll be Speaker if we chuck her out. Not that she’s going anywhere and not that she should.

Am I mad at her about Feingold? Yes, and she knows it from my emails. Am I mad she took to long to support Murtha? Yes, but that let Murtha be the story, and now she backs him. Am I mad about this eleventh silly privileged request that gets voted down by the majority? Yes.

But…

She’s the lady who saved Social Security from Bush’s privatization goons. And for that, I think, she deserves some respect from progressives.

Liberal Realist:
The point is, that Pelosi just typifies what is wrong with the Democrats (and as current minority leader she’d better start to get a clue). If she wants to change her m.o. and engage with bloggers then she needs to do it honestly, and not as a sort of hit and miss action in between whatever else she is doing that day. The blogs are all about call-and- response. Pelosi doesn’t quite get the “response” part.

Thanks Shez and Neurpophis. My daughter has plyed me with too much champage! What a wonderful girl! So,check you’all in the AM.Adios.

To focus exclusively on the impact of a blog based solely on the size of its readership would be tantamount to measuring the impact of some of cable television’s chat shows solely on the basis of their viewership.

The infamous program, “Hardball,” offers an instructive example. It doesn’t have a particularly large viewing audience, yet its influence extends beyond its ratings.

Why? Because opinion makers and journalists watch the program.

The same is true of many blogs, including FDL.

Consequently, to argue that the purported “hubris and narcissism” of this or other blogs is offensive to any particular audience, is to miss (imo, intentionally) one of the primary functions that they play.

FYI, the Reid and Dean polls show 33% and 10% disapproval rates, respectively.

Poll figures are found here:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/20/181548/105

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/20/181555/264

Whoops. Wrong thread. I was referring to Pelosi’s dkos community (dis)approval rating of 67% as of 3/20.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/20/181518/267

FDL,

Wake up and smell the coffee. The democratic party or the republican party that is in power locally will never support bloggers, until blogger candidates are in office and repleace these natural adversaries. Local politics is extremely corrupt and extremely undemocratic, Philadelphia is a case study in this, pick any era including the most recent for a case study. Blogging is all about shining light and raising public interest in politics. This is anathema to how the games have always been played. We are the enemy to local power structures. This is the reality. If weren’t there would be no need for blogging.

BTW the Street administration has been very welcoming of President Bush, therefore we can expect his slate and apparatus to be the same. Tho the PA governor is from Philly and Street would seem to be his annointed successor, the reality here is no established Philly pol or other machine based pol (Repub or Dem) is going to be the freind of open and honest advocates.

Steny Hoyer just happens to be an elected pig. I will always give deference to elected officials over say, MSM uber -egos. Just calling him a pig becomes tenditiously juvenile and blurs any chance of clarifying his real detractions. I think an Ed Lamont style counter representative suggestion would be more productive. Also try to put your self in Nancy’s shoes. She has been briefed on the NSA program,s? and cannot talk about to anyone even if it wreaks of Presidential abuse. I would rather not know. As an elected offical how would proceed to counter the GOP on this issue? Remember Russ Feingold does not know what she knows.Thanks

“…we need to battle the bloggers on their own turf…”

I’m sure someone else has already pointed out that lefty progressive bloggers are not the only bloggers on the turf, no. In fact, there is a rabid frothing demon-infested hell of bloggers on the reactionary right. Yes there is, and they see themselves as the saviors of the world along with their lord and master G W.

Could it possibly be that the Philly Dems got the clue that in order to meet those pukes head on in the blogosphere, they needed to raise some money and do their own blogging? Hm?

The lefty blogosphere is huge and encompassing, and it is often at odds with the “Leadership” of the Democratic Party, sometimes fruitfully, sometimes not. The lefty blogosphere is largely, almost entirely, self-funding.

The radical reactionary blogosphere is crabbed and cramped and functions as an arm of the propaganda ministries run out of the White House, the Departments and the RNC; it has no independent thought or existence, and it is bankrolled by shadowy individuals and agencies bent on catapulting the propaganda no matter what.

That Nancy put out her Gloves Off message on the dKos board is significant. That she is still out of touch is obvious, but at least she and her staff will risk being told that over and over and over again, and who knows maybe eventually they’ll catch on.

Meanwhile, “battling bloggers on their own turf” does not necessarily mean battling Kossacks and the rest. It should mean battling the right wing propaganda bloggers.

I mean, rilly…

What they’re battling are informed voters who follow the news in real-time, hate being patronized and don’t fall for the kitchen scraps gobbled up by people who are only paying half attention to this shit.
Yay,go Jane! We voters deserve to be treated like rational adults by our politicians.

Funny….they view us as a nuisance. I hope we are!

FITZ!

It’s really not that complicated to keep netizens off your back and on your side. Stop repeating GOP talking points and making things easy for Republicans, and for the love of GOD don’t stab other Democrats when they try to stand up to them.

Is that so very hard?

Jane – Thanks for saying what should be obvious to anyone with half a brain. You would think they could figure this out by now. LOL

“What they’re battling is informed voters who follow the news in real-time, hate being patronized and don’t fall for the kitchen scraps gobbled up by people who are only paying half attention to this shit.â€
jane, your clear thinking is surpassed only by yer articulate rendering of it.
thanks

The Democratic party is seriously broken. Candidates are annointed by an elite few. the role of Democratic voters is to show up at the called-for times, carrying political banners, and to vote for the annointed candidate on election day.

How the fuck is that democracy? If the constitution-economic-geopolitical crises of this country weren’t so serious, I’d be working for a revolution in the Democratic party. As it stands, I have to hold my nose and hope the worthless POS blue jellyfish in congress will minimally do their job when it really counts. But if Democrats fail to take back at least one of the houses of congress this election, or another neocon fascist warmonger is elected president in ‘08, the gloves come off.

US v Gravel: Pentagon Papers
Rockefeller, Harmon, and the Minority leaders have been claiming they couldn;t talk about the spying , even to their colleagues, because it’s “against the law.” This is belied by the Supreme Court’s ruling in US v Gravel, stemming from the Pentagon Papers.

Alaska Senator Mike Gravel read exerpts into the Congressional record, then atrranged publication in book form. The Court held that Article 1 Section 5’s immunity is absolute.

and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place.

In a parallel case, Gravel v United States, they ruled that while the immunity transfers to staff, Gravel’s aide was not priveledged from testifying before the Grand Jury about his receipt of the documents, or the publishing arrangements, but could not be forced to testify about his discussions with the Senator.

The Speech or Debate Clause was designed to assure a co-equal branch of the government wide freedom of speech, debate, and deliberation without intimidation or threats from the Executive Branch. It thus protects Members against prosecutions that directly impinge upon or threaten the legislative process. We have no doubt that Senator Gravel may not be made to answer – either in terms of questions or in terms of defending himself from prosecution – for the events that occurred at the subcommittee meeting. Our decision is made easier by the fact that the United States appears to have abandoned whatever position it took to the contrary in the lower courts.

IF Pelosi reads through (or a savvy, smart staffer reads through) that comment thread and the other diaries, they could pick up some really good material, advice, and constructive criticisms.

Therein lies the rub. She will NOT read through the comments. She wont even visit the site. I have some doubt as to whether she actually wrote for the blog at all. More than likely, she had a staffer who may be a wee bit more web-savvy than she is (almost impossible not to be more savvy on this than almost ANY rep or senator) toss something together that fit with her re-election talking points and toss it out there.

DailyKos, having the largest target audience was a no brainer. The idiot staffer, being just savvy enough to know where to post but no savvy enough to REALLY GET IT, thought it would lead to accolades and love, fawning and adoration just because. They STILL don’t understand “the situation on the ground.” Soundbites don’t work with us. They piss us off. TRUTH works. REALITY works. HONESTY works. Talking points and platitudes are ignored and the provider of same is to be gored.

Until Pelosi, Kerry, Schumer, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc get with the real program, accept the new reality, then they will NOT be welcomed or supported. I gotta tell you, if I were in any of their districts or states I would NOT vote for them in the fall. The Congress, both houses, is infested with fungus that is anathema to life in the United States. It needs to be cleaned out, top to bottom, and treated with a strong bleach solution to boot.

They have to win me back (and hopefully most of the rest of you too) rather than yet again getting to take us for granted. It must end! We must NOT allow them to take us for granted. I will NOT go along with their fantasy that I’ll vote for them no matter what because, “where else will you go?”. I tell you what, you put it like that and I’ll tell you where I will go: NOT to the polls…OR I will vote for other than Dem. Get it? No more taking for granted anyone or anything. I’ve already cut off, entirely, my portion of the money pipe. Money is the ONLY thing they understand.

No, Bowers means the democrats. I know Albert Yee from Philadelphia Drinkign liberally, and Bowers too.

Nope: this is the DEMS doing this, and the reason is that in pHiladelphia, the democrats are as entrenched and corrupt as republicans are in other states. We just saw the disgraced councilman Rick Mariano (D) resign because got popped for taking bribes, and not only does he expect a paycheck until he’s actually in the hoosegow, no one on City Council actually thinks he should step down.

And then there’s the feud running between Bob Brady and John Dougherty, both of who want to be the next mayor.

They are afraid of the insurgent dems in Philadelphia, and they are out to stopt he progressive movement, as it interferes with the machine they’ve so carefully set up.

Not that the PA GOP is any better: racist scumbags who arew trying to destroy Philadelphia.

Jane…I LOVE YOU!

“uncontrollable and uncooperative and, one assumes, bad for the party.”

Duuuhh! People thinking for themselves, and speaking their mind, instead of lettting plutocrats speak for them, has been bad for behavior control since, at least the Storming of the Bastille.

Why do you think China regulates the internet with Microsoft and other mega corps in fawn?

Nancy & her plutocrats need corporate money… just one more time.. and maybe, another.. well perhaps another..

Can’t get it if the peonage is uncontrolled

The other point they are missing about blogging, as a consumer of blogs, is that political blogs are filling a vacuum in progressive ideas and the inspirational feelings that come from such exchange of ideas. In addition, the average citizen has not been able to be involved at all. If others don’t like it, as they said, they can get out here and see if, as a consumer you can move me. I doubt it, but its great to see that you are being moved by the netblog world. Firedoglake (and the like) speaks my language get used to it traditional political operatives.

“Also try to put your self in Nancy’s shoes. She has been briefed on the NSA program,s? and cannot talk about to anyone even if it wreaks of Presidential abuse. I would rather not know. As an elected offical how would proceed to counter the GOP on this issue? Remember Russ Feingold does not know what she knows.Thanks”

Evidently Russ Feingold knows something that Pelosi SHOULD know… that is, there is no pending investigation to “wait for the results of”. The Republicans made sure to effectively kill that as quickly as they could.

Yes, I realize that the Beltway crowd is banking on this “Trust us, it’s a good idea to cave on this and hang Feingold out to dry, we just can’t tell you why,” scheme to distract us and keep us off their backs so they can get back to sitting on their thumbs with a clear conscience, but once again it assumes that none of us are bright enough to follow the bouncing ball, and that we’ll just forget that there is no rea, meaningful investigation of the warrantless wiretapping program pending, or that Bush has proudly and repeatedly admitted that he broke the law.

I think “poor Nancy” and her buddies need to put themselves in OUR shoes for a change.

Nancy’s thing reads like a floor speech she made to an empty hall. Remember when Newt used to do that? Only his 2am speeches were covered on C-Span and then they were the talk of the town for days afterwards.

Nancy gets up and says something in the House, and everyone throws tomatoes at her, at least virtual tomatoes.

Can’t win for losing.

Nature of power, innit?

RedDan

“Consider me skeptical. Tone is same, outlook is similar, view of liberal blogosphere appears in line with tone and viewpoint of liberalrealist blogspot.

I am still looking…be warned”

Consider me a bitch! The tone is NOT the same, the gender is not the same. You’re a pompous ass. I’m not shaking in my boots.

I think ‘liberal realist’ is a dem staffer who is getting sick of all the angry emails and letters pouring in from constituents.

178 “Ed” Lamont??