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Ralph Reed is having an awfully bad year. His friendship with Jack Abramoff and the revelation that Ralphie Boy took a whole lot of casino money to prop up his Christian lobbying gig isn’t going down all that well with his flock.
We’ve previously reported on Ralph Reed’s trials and tribulations here, here and here, just for starters, but a story in The Nation really lays it all out on the table for everyone and I wanted to toss it out there for consideration.
…As executive director of the Christian Coalition from its founding in 1989 until his departure in 1997, Reed got — and took — the lion’s share of credit for transforming the politically unsophisticated evangelical right into a disciplined Republican Party machine. "Ralph Reed symbolizes the rise of the Christian right to political power," says Frederick Clarkson, author of "Eternal Hostility: The Struggle Between Theocracy and Democracy." "He became the story of the movement — the face and voice for those millions of conservative Christians in the mainstream press. Now he’s becoming a symbol of what’s gone awry."
Last June Georgia’s former GOP House minority leader Bob Irvin blasted Reed in an Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-ed. "His M.O. is to tell evangelical Christians that his cause of the moment, for which he has been hired, is their religious duty," Irvin fumed. "As an evangelical myself, I resent Christianity being used simply to help Reed’s business."
Irvin’s dart went straight to the heart of the matter. While grassroots organizing has been the key to lifting evangelicals to power in the GOP, the movement’s political model has mostly mirrored the traditional hierarchy of churches, with trusted leaders setting the tone and issuing marching orders to their foot soldiers. What if the generals — the Reeds and James Dobsons — are proven to care more about power and money than stamping out abortion or homosexuality? The damage to evangelical politics would clearly be immense. So would the damage to the Republican Party, which cannot carry a national election without the full enthusiasm and participation of the evangelical troops.
"Think what will happen on Election Day when 2 to 3 percent of the previously most passionate Republicans stay home," Joseph Farah, editor and publisher of the right-wing WorldNetDaily, warned in January. "Think of what it will mean when 20 to 30 percent of the grassroots activists Republicans have counted on to work for them don’t show up."…
Think about that for a moment — and then transpose yesterday’s DeLay announcements about leaving the House and his public professions of Christian martyrdom for the conservative cause. And add in Digby’s theory on where DeLay might be headed once he leaves the House.
At some point, even the snake oil salesmen lose their grip on the crowd. The question is, are we at that moment now? And if not, then when?
The Nation article is a thought provoking read. And I’d love to get everyone’s thoughts on this one, because it goes to the heart of the political divide that I see opening a wider and wider chasm in this country. The question I keep asking myself is how do we rebuild the bridges, if ever.
(Screen grab from the ever-hilarious Chicken Run.)
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ooh, Fitz and Feingold! Love Chicken Run!!
The Onion has the reaction on the street to Tom DeLay’s resignation.
Amanda Marcotte, Systems Analyst – “What does this man have to look forward to? Some multimillion-dollar consulting position at a mega-corporation? I hope he’s on suicide watch.”
Moulitsas ZÃniga, Produce Vendor – “I don’t know how Democrats will fail to capitalize on this GOP debacle, but I’m sure they’ll find a way.”
John Amato, Dietician – “Termites, rodents, and ants beware: Your 20-year free pass is over.
Is it me or do those names sound familiar?
OT…but email the ombuds of MSNBC to complain about tweety and his asskissing of Delay…Demand he apologise to Senator Clinton…
here is the email;
David.McCormick@nbcuni.com
The split is wide, WIDE open, and not just between the aisles of the church. Damn, I feel like I’m watching DemTV right now, and I’ve got CNBC on. I know I’ve commented on this over the last two months, but there is an ENORMOUS seachange even in the financial industry. CNBC just had a representative on from AFL-CIO discussing their complaint that Walmart was blocking port security with its considerable economic power — and the AFL-CIO was UNCONTESTED, no ‘winger talking head countering him, no representative from Walmart, just the AFL-CIO dude for nearly 5 minutes during precious trading hours. He was followed by another talking head discussing the Bush tax cuts’ impact, pointing out that the wealthiest got the most benefit from the cuts and that complaints about double-taxation on corporations were invalid since many of the same people/entities paid NO taxes between 1995-2000 during the dot.com bubble years.
Jeepers. I think I need to get my eyes and ears checked!!
p.s. favorite Chicken Run line: But I don’t want to be a pie!
Ralph Reed is going to have a Come to Jesus moment.One way or another.Could it be in a prison parrish? One can only hope.
Joejoejoe #3: Is it me or do those names sound familiar?
No and yes, respectively.
joejoejoe — Marcotte doesn’t ring a bell, but “Ziniga” and “Amato” certainly do! Heh. Good one, Onion!
Ralphie’s slow, tortured flame-out has been incredibly satisfying to watch. The hits just keep on coming. Thanks for continuing your excellent coverage of this implosion. It’s really a dagger to the heart of the theocrat/oligarch hegemony. If this scandal wakes up the truly Xtian among the Xtians, yes, it could be the end of their co-option by the corporatists.
And to think it might be little Ralphie who provides the example.
OfT: I’ve got my (non-existent) money on Jeb in the Florida Senate race, although I’ve seen some discussion about Tommy Franks. Who else is there to replace KHarris, presuming she makes it to the May primary and then has to drop out between then and the November general election?
O/T
John Casper – MSNBC is breaking with an emerging e mail from Duke Lacross team – jeebus
Jee Wiz, EPU’d myself twice with the same post. OK, one more time. For some info on FBI background checks (which should have been done on a high ranking member of DHS–or equivelent checks) please see bottom og pediphile thread.
Rayne:
Amanda Marcotte is at the Pandagon blog.
What is this “EPU” ya’ll keep using? News travels slow to these arctic regions you know.
I find it interesting that throughout all of Reed’s tribulations that he’s not out of it and may still have a shot at being elected. So what does that tell you?
Ok, happy to explain. EPU are the initials for a long-time commenter who always found himself at the bottom of a thread when a new one had been posted. Evil Parallel Universe, you on now?
EPU is when you post last on a thread when the new thread is posted……everyone jumps to the new one and doesn’t get to read your post. Poster is therefore EPU’d.
—–
Katie’s new $10M/year position:
Katie Couric’s move to CBS, after a very public courtship by the network’s Leslie Moonves, will shake up two long-entrenched areas of the network news business: the traditional evening newscast and the morning race.
Alaskan_Pete — Welcome. EPU = the initials for a regular commenter here, Evil Parallel Universe, who had a habit of posting a comment near the end of a thread, only to find that a new thread had already started and everyone had left for the new thread. To be EPU’d is to post a comment that gets stranded in this way.
speaking of roasting chickens…
OT but hilarious– the General hits Joementum!
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com…..6363792660
“The question I keep asking myself is how do we rebuild the bridges, if ever.”
There’s always the Helen Thomas technique:
“You used to ask tough questions. Come back, all is forgiven.”
Ralphie’s exposure as a fraud and scum sucking vermin is a watershed moment for the Repugs and their RW Christian cohorts.
This man would have been President. If he loses this race, he will be out of the running forever. Or at least till after I’m dead.
I think the back of the Coaltion may be broke forever if Ralphie loses or quits.
Casino Jack will be his downfall.
OT but interesting:
On the Justin Berry case, remember the name Greg Mitchel?
Just came across this interesting comment on Jeff Jarvis’s blog from someone claiming to be Mitchel’s brother:
Interesting, huh? Jarvis and his followers seem to all believe that Eichenwald is the bad guy in this story!
Unbelievable…
since it’s now on topic, I’m taking the liberty of recycling this link from Late Nite:
luv me some d r i f t g l a s s:
… Who in the f**k are you talking to?
With respect, you keep saying “we†and “they†as if “they†are going to wake up one day and realize that they are the problem. That Conservative Fundamentalism is the bone cancer of democracy. That people like Mullah Falwell or Mullah Dobson or Mullah Roberston and their legions of Christalopithecans are going suddenly start putting the good of the nation ahead of the good of their cult.
Earth to Liberal Guy: They’re not.
(warning: long post)
LisaDawn82 # 13
both the Nation article and Cynthia Tucker/AtJo/Con make it pretty clear that there are plenty of earnest, trusting folk out there who have at least temporarily fallen for Ralphie’s “shouldn’t have done it” mea culpa on his involvement with gambling
PS Anyone see Justin Berry on Larry King last night? Mitchel’s brothers comments above seem eerily like one of the people who called into the show, demanding that Justin reveal how much money he made, and why he got out of the business as soon as he became 18.
cbl — if you are still hanging about, could you shoot me an e-mail? ReddHedd at AOL dot Com. Thanks!
Alaskan_Pete-
Actually, in a weird kind of way, getting EPU’d is a badge of honor, as well.
Unlike, say, getting “trexxed”.
;-)
Christy, are you looking for this?
SF Chronicle article yesterday:
A Web of oil intrigue
Rumored Iran plan has blogs breathless
David R. Baker, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 4, 2006
Iran has a plan to destroy America, and it has nothing to do with the bomb.
Instead, the Islamic republic will use oil and euros to slay the Great Satan, breathless accounts on the Internet warn. The attack will proceed as follows:
Iran will open an oil trading exchange that operates in euros rather than dollars — until now, the world’s sole currency for buying crude. Other countries, whose central banks were holding onto dollars largely to buy oil, will dump their dollars en masse.
The greenback’s value will collapse. The American economy will tank. The U.S.-dominated New World Order will disappear in a flurry of currency trades.
This tall tale has circulated on the Web for months. Bloggers type apocalyptic postings about it. People who identify themselves as economists engage in detailed, sometimes arcane debates on it. And like any good online story, the saga of the Iranian oil exchange, or bourse, has taken on a viral life of its own. …
It’s important to remember Jimmy Carter’s observation that this hierarchical model is actually quite different from the traditional Southern Baptist model of a level church where each adherent had their own relation to the Deity. The emergence of these evangelicals as ‘leaders’ is far more consistant with other (e.g. Roman Catholic) traditions.
The sooner these people realize that ‘feet of clay’ is a condition of ALL leaders (and followers) the sooner we can get past this hugh cleft in our society.
OT – Well, Bush has left the building, so now I can go to Bridgeport…I’m supposed to drop off some DVDs at the Public Access TV station next to the theater where Bush was speaking, but there was no way I’d be able to get within a half-mile of the place while he was there. I think he’s long gone back to DC by now.
More OT – And tonight my wife and I are going to see Ned Lamont speak in New Haven. If I get any face time with the man, I’ll mention FDL; I’m sure he knows how much we’re supporting him.
As in I was just EPU’ed.
I think it is generally agreed that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. Hiding their nuclear activities for 18 years, their connections to AQ Khan, their relations with the IAEA, their bad faith in their negotiations with the Europeans and even the Russians are all indicative.
Put the other way, if the Iranians had no nuclear weapons ambitions, it would not be a big deal to have their nuclear facilities monitored and could be used to argue for access to more sophisticated nuclear technology and greater control of the fuel cycle. This said, the question becomes what we should do about it.
If the decision has been made that we can not accept a nuclear armed Iran, then we will strike regardless of the costs. The strike would be made with the tacit approval and logistical aid of Israel and various Arab governments in the region. It would be layered in that not just nuclear sites would be hit but also those assets in Iran which could be used to defend against the attack but also to respond to it either directly or indirectly as for example against shipping in the Persian gulf. It is for precisely this reason that I do not think that we would support a unilateral strike by the Israelis since they do not have the resources to take out all of these other targets. Even so Iran would retain the capacity to use terrorism and asymmetric warfare to exact a cost for our actions. In addition, any attack would have extreme repercussions on the oil market and could throw the world economy into recession –even if the oil flow underwent no serious disruptions.
Another option which is the one we are currently seeing play out is to draw out and delay Iran’s acquiring nuclear weapons. This does not solve the underlying problem but is useful since it avoids a military confrontation that would be disastrous to both sides(i.e. Iran and everyone else) and leaves open the possibility that the situation will change in some unspecified way before Iran gets nuclear weapons.
A final option would be to accept that Iran will at some point have nuclear weapons. This does not contradict the current approach but can be seen as an extension of it. What we should be looking at in this regard is what the consequences of a nuclear Iran would be. Would it be more stable or less stable? Would the region be more stable or less stable? Before Ahmadinejad came to power, I think the view was that nuclear weapons might make Iran feel less threatened and make it a more responsible regional player. Ahmadinejad’s electoral victory, however, showed how unstable Iran still is and how unpredictable. The last and most dangerous thing you want in nuclear politics is uncertainty and at the moment the uncertainties are increasing not decreasing with respect to Iran.
For now I think we will continue on the current track. If events change: we effectively withdraw from Iraq or the Iranian program accelerates or someone misjudges, then all bets are off.
Alaskan_Pete – There once was this blog called Firedoglake. We just call it FDL now. So, way back a long time ago there was this feller Evil Parallel Universe (EPU). He had the unfortunate knack of posting at the very tail end of a thread the most well thought out comments. However, bc everyone was now lookin at the new thread the comments were never truly appreciated or even read. So, he started by reposting them as an OT to the new thread. This became a quite common event for this person that the phenomenon was later characterized as being EPU’ed or EPU’d. It happens everywhere. Not just FDL. So, EPU’s ghost is EVERYWHERE
Punaise-I read that about a week ago somewhere and it scared the hello out of me…….
Redd- Do you think the 12 hour delay (to preserve all materials) has something to do with Andy Card resigning?
ccmask — I think Card was just tired of all the crap being piled on and wanted out. Plus, I’ve heard he’s considering a run for MA governor. So it could factor in, but I wouldn’t put a big money bet on it, I guess is what I’m saying.
If Ralph Reed were ripped to shreds and eaten by a pack of angry squirrels I would consider the possibility that God may exist.
If said squirrels then proceeded to take a collective shit on Pat Robertson, I would never doubt again.
Ralph Reed will not make the difference in whether or not the goopers can hold the religious wing of their coalition. There are many factors at work here:
1) Will the goopers give the religious right what it wants? Will abortion be illegal in the US? There are only so many years that these people will cough up cash and time to make something happen that ain’t a gonna happen. It’s been thirty years of false promises. That clock is starting to run out.
2) The war in Iraq is a delicate balancing act for the goopers. The religious right supports it for only two reasons- the need to get the temple built in Israel so that Jesus can come again- and the bullshit about bringing “Godly democracy” to the world. The religious right does NOT believe in war for oil- so if and when they discover the REAL reason for the war- all bets are off. As Phillips explains in his latest book- they see the “war for oil” strategy as a part of Satan’s plan.
As the Clusterfuck democracies show themselves to be anti christian- the oil motivation becomes clearer- and the connection with the building of the temple and the growth of Israel to it’s biblical borders becomes more and more confused- evangelicals will get off the bus.
3) There is no biblical connection between “low taxes” and christian virtue. There is MUCH biblical basis for providing for the poor (”what you do to the least of God’s people- you do to me”). Dems have been unable to crack the code on this issue so far- but it’s there to be cracked.
4)The OTHER parts of the gooper coalition are not in support of the anti abortion arm of the gooper policy. They hate it and the other backwards anti scientific bullshit that comes with it. They can only be pushed so far- until the coalition disolves.
This won’t last- the fissures are very real and are ready to be broken wide open by a savy dem presidential candidate.
Punaise
The euros for dollars story at the moment is just a way of spitting in our eye. It’s economic ramifications are dubious. If our economy goes into the toilet, it will be because of Bush’s insane and senseless economic policies and his inabilities to add numbers beyond how many fingers and toes he has. The euro is not an international currency in the same way as the dollar is. It is still rather new, untested, and not large enough to handle world scale transactions to more than a limited degree. Nonetheless, it is perfectly reasonable and probably even desirable to diversify into it and there have been intimations of this occurring not simple with hostile countries like Iran and Venezuela but also China.
Hugh – good context, merci
cbl, thanks.
Smoking gun has the email.
IMO this event has numerous story lines. Two of the most reviling to me have to do with the “code of silence.” First, the complete failure of Duke’s administration to communicate appropriately and the failure of the 44 members of Duke’s LaCrosse team (who did not particpate in the brutal kidnapping, rape, beating and sodomy) who still will not go public with what they kno (and appear unwilling to tell the police even the most basic facts about what went on). As Duke undergrads, they have the “no-snitching” part down pat.
Forensic authorities have confirmed the woman’s injuries to be consistent with her police report and that this took place late on the March 13, early on March 14.
Duke Administration knew no later than March 15, but their Men’s basketball team was still “alive” in the NCAA tournament. The first announcement by Duke, took place on March 24, the day after their Men’s team lost in the NCAA’s. Duke Administrators failed to warn their community and the greater Durham community that they had a serious public health risk, and there was pretty overwheliming evidence that it was on Duke’s Men’s LaCrosse team. Duke could have done this without violating the Civil Rights of the Men’s LaCrosse team. They weren’t talking to the police and they weren’t talking to the Press, just the lawyers their Daddies hired for them.
OT, if this woman lived in South Dakoa, under their new Rapists’ Rights Law, she would not have been allowed access to emergency contraception.
OT Yes the woman is an “exotic dancer.” She is also the mother of two, and attending college at North Carolina Central, four miles away from Duke.
Probably too soon to count old Ralph out of the game just yet. Yes, there are moments when it looks like he is going down in flames but he has a long history with all the Georgia small “c” christians and they will overlook an awful lot of sins if they think deep, deep down Ralph loves Jesus like they do. That boyish grin and sincere way always seems to allow an awful of sins to wash away.
Never fail to remember that the base that supports him watch wrestling on TV and believe it is real.
But, RH, when you put the 12-hour gap against the recently discovered 250 emails as well as the Fitz improperly archived comment, isn’t there more than a little smoke here? I know you stay reality-based in your front-page posts, but there’s room for some Rose Mary Woods speculation here in the comments on this topic, isn’t there?
I don’t think a bridge can be built between people who believe in separation of church and state and those who want a sectarian earthly theocracy -whether Christian, or Jewish or Muslim. So I hope there are not too many die hard conservative Christian theocrats in the US. If there are, a divisive chasm will remain and we will have to learn how to live with it.
I only hope that some conservative Christians will come to realize how badly they have been duped and used by people like DeLay and Reed. Even if DeLay is sincere on some level (and I think if he is, that makes him a true nut case), I still think conservative Christians have been used by him. If half of the Marianas stories are true, then DeLay has not acted as a good conservative Christian should with regard to labor rights there (ie, allowing labor regs that encouraged or forced abortions among workers).
Problem is that conservative Protestant Christians are similar to fundamentalist Sunni Muslims in some ways. Idolatry of Scripture, scriptural interpretations contaminated by outlandish cultural and ethnic bigotry, and complete independence of authority of every church (every preacherman can set himself up as an ultimate authority and issue a fatwa). So they are difficult to reason with and tend to act in unpredictable and anarchic ways.
I read that article last night after seeing it linked here. My thoughts on the issue are here and here.
Silly evangelicals. Don’t they realize that they’re just an ATM to little Caligulas like Tom DeLay? Their ideological sacred cow is “faith”, which is precisely what makes it so easy to lead them around like a bull with a ring in its nose.
9/11 was a faith-based initiative.
e-mail to NBC:
David.McCormick@nbcuni.com
I am writing to complain about the cozy relationship that has been demonstrated between Chris Matthews of Hardball and disgraced congressman Tom Delay. A video clip has been posted on the Internet of Matthews and DeLay talking when they thought they were off-camera. There are several problems with the conversation shown. First, it shows an intimacy between the journalist and the politician that is improper. Their conversation was jovial. It is unclear how Matthews can maintain the objectivity and lack of bias when he engages in such banter with the politician he is going to interview. They treat each other like pals. This is improper from the perspective of journalistic ethics. Second, Matthews is clearly heard to say words to the effect that “I owe you one†to DeLay. A journalist has no business owing anything to a politician whom he covers. Finally, Matthews and DeLay exchange improper and adversary remarks about Senator Hillary Clinton. Once again, the appearance is of bias and a lack of objectivity. Matthews should issue a public apology to Senator Clinton and to his viewers and should refrain from such conduct in the future, whether or not he knows he is on camera.
fallenmonk — oh, I’m not counting Ralph out until the votes are counted, certified and published. *g* But this was to have been a cakewalk for him. Watching him struggle through the primary is amusing enough, let alone anything beyond that…
God, sex, and cold hard cash is what the so-called “Christian” right is all about. Eternal hypocrisy.
Hugh #37: If our economy goes into the toilet, it will be because of Bush’s insane and senseless economic policies and his inabilities to add numbers beyond how many fingers and toes he has.
He can count that high? [/snark]
No argument on the senseless part. Or on the insanity. I still don’t understand why people can buy the argument that reducing taxes for the wealthiest people in the country will help the rest of us in any way whatsoever. (I’d like to start the ‘trickle-up economics’ program: pay people enough to live on and watch the economy improve as so many people no longer have to buy everything discounted or used.)
Teddy — while I’d love it if the 12-hour gap yielded more than just speculation, at this point, I haven’t heard anything to substantiate anything other than some wishful thinking. Although you can be sure if I hear differently, you guys will be the first to know. ;-)
I’m not sure that the revelations of corruption will have that big an impact on the religious right. The RR just loves a repentent sinner. If Reed or Delay is able to conjure up some convincing-looking tears, get down on their knees, and ask for forgiveness, it is possible their standing could actually rise.
Our political system is founded on the idea of keeping church and state separate. This is true at a deeper level than most people realize. The Constitution and the Bible are, at some level, contradictory. Most of the Ten Commandments would be unconstitutional. Most of the core concepts behind the Constitution — self-determination, democracy, free speech, etc. — are either absent from the Bible or specifically deprecated there.
This really is not much different that what is happening in Afghanistan or Iraq. Given the choice between Sharia and a constitutional democracy, Muslim fundamentalists will eagerly choose Sharia. Given the choice between Biblical law and a constitutional democracy, most Christian fundamentalists will eagerly choose Biblical law.
I think it is too much to hope that Christian fundamentalists will take religion back out of politics. The next best hope is that they stay home on election day. Maybe enough Republicans will get indicted that it will make an impact on the RR’s involvement in polticis, but we aren’t there yet, not by a long shot.
Just thinking of roasting chickens makes me hungry.
and that complaints about double-taxation on corporations were invalid since many of the same people/entities paid NO taxes between 1995-2000
Invalid even if they were paying taxes IMO, bc you get a huge benefit for the price of dividend taxation. It’s called limited liability, a concept that did not even exist at common law. Shareholders in NW are never going to go to jail for their negligence in supervising actions of the corporation, never going to lose their personal assets beyond their initial investment, etc. they way they would if they had invested in a company as a sole proprietorship or a general partnership and divident taxation is pretty much like paying an insurance premium IMO, fwiw.
Hugh – interesting post. We have the added issue of who much intel we truly have about what is going on in Iran – Risen’s book indicated that there was a huge screw up that ended up in loss of almost all of our intel assets in about 2004. Finally, if we don’t dig in with non-proliferation and the Nunn-Lugar provisions, and even if we do, the truth is, we can’t prevent many of these countries from eventually getting nukes and some of the countries with which we are nominally allies, like Pakistan, have just as much potential to generate huge problems as Iran.
The underlying fundamentals need to be addressed; the rest is just taking Advil for that infected tooth. Gary Hart’s article that was linked a couple of days ago was one of the best shots I had seen anyone take at it. Again, IMO, FWIW
Speaking from the World Capital of Wishful Thinking, Christy, I thank you for your response. Always with the facts, ma’m, just the facts! *g*
Who picks the art for these posts? That Chicken Run pic made me laff out loud.
Wow. Read that article. Reed is a putz, pure and simple. My own Ralphie story: I sat across the aisle of a commuter plane enroute Va Beach to Washington National from Reed and some pal/crony of his. They were reading a Time magazine, and giggling like school girls over a picture of Hillary Clinton. The subject of their giggles? Hillary’s clothing, and how it made her “look bitchy”. It really took all my self-control not to reach across the aisle and slug the little shit. To this day, I figure an opportunity missed, is truly an opportunity lost.
The article on Reed is so revealing about the underside of the “Christian” beast. I guess that their other real hero is Charles Colson, Watergate Felon who still gets access to the White House via the Jesus Redemption Follies. I guess his alleged “Prison Ministry” might pick up a few more adherants in the months and years to come. Strange how all of them will be self-identified “born-again republican christians” (well, except Abramoff who can surely start his own Messianic Redemption Club). A regular jailhouse coffee-klatch of corruption.
Also interesting to note, that Reed lived in Toccoa, Georgia. A familiar name to anyone who has read Stephen Ambrose’s “Band of Brothers”, it was where Easy Company of the 506th PIR trained to become Airborne troopers. How quirky that such a little shit like Reed claims to be from a small town that was also the brief home to real American heroes like the men of the 101st Airborne Division. I’m surprised he didn’t claim to be an Airborne Ranger, just to pick up another vote and a check or two. Be right in character.
Christy # 25
just shot you an e mail – it said it was sent, but we never know with Hooterville Hi-Speed
MrWonderful — Jane and I pick our own pics. I thought this particular screen grab was hilarious, myself. *g*
Hugh, thanks for an excellent comment about Iran and the nuclear issues.
O/T. Sorry, but in the wake of all the other Abramoff, Delay & Heimat security pedophile lunacy, I thought you’d all enjoy some Connecticut lunacy, especially you, Angie, if you’re around!
Chimpy appeared in Bridgeport to talk about “healthcare:” Something about people taking “responsibility ” up to a certain point until they get really sick. (For what? Drugs that cost a trillion gazillion dollars? He’s telling this to people in Bridgport where so many people are below the poverty line & noone voted for him.)
No word on the lucky volunteer. Shutting down I-95 seems in retrospect like a Spinal Tap moment; i.e. Boston’s not a big college town and CT is not a big commuter state.
Theories come from the Hartford Courant though.
http://www.courant.com/news/po…..ics”
I am eagerly looking forward to some rubber stamp televison. Especially since it snowed today.
After the boil is lanced, all the blood and pus and crud comes out, and sunlight has a chance to disinfect… I am hoping a good chunk of the extreme rightwing Christian theocratic voting block will have second thoughts. And that they will either realize the wisdom of separation of church and state, or withdraw from politics and wait for Armageddon at home.
A lot of this has been due to charging people up to be good little holy warriers and prepare the way for the Second Coming. “C’mon boys, God needs yer help in gittin up this here ennotheworld!” How long can these masses of people remain drunk on that kind of spiritual-pride high? It ain’t gonna happen their way, sooner or later the fever will pass. Won’t go away completely, but be less intense for awhile.
I agree with rwcole in post #36. On point number one, it is not just that the Christian right waited 30 years to get their social agenda… it is that they finally took control of the three branches of government, and they still didn’t get anything. No federal ban on abortion or homosexuality, no school prayer or vouchers, no nothing.
They took over the government and they still feel victims of a war on Christmas/Christians.
(This new comments app really rocks. I like the cool numbering system and being able to see preview as I type.)
No sense in getting cocky. Let’s make sure those grassroots know all about what a rotten SOB Ralphie boy is (and remember he got lucky that the DA in Austin simply did not have the time or manpower to go after him, too).
Tug — it helped that the DA didn’t have time to look into Sen. Cornyn’s role in this either. *g*
John Casper #39
have been messing with our e mail andjust saw your comment.
wish you could’ve seen the MSNBC talking heads as they were reading excerpts from this beyond vile e mail – for once, I was glad they weren’t being objective – they were clearly disgusted by what they were reading.
let’s see how long this code of silence lasts once law enforcement has the dna results
Exclusive: Judge finally calls end to inquiry into Clinton Administration official Cisneros
RAW STORY
Now lets start with the REAL criminals, eh?
wesgpc – I don’t hold out much hope for the extreme right wing fundi theocrats. I guess the best I think we shoot for is that real Evangelicals come around and a large block of Christians who got wrapped up in the need to inflict damage somewhere, on someone, bc of what happened here come around to how un-Christian their actions have been. And that there is a restored sense of patriotism meaning protecting our Constitution, freedoms and each other and does not require one knee feality and support of senseless, illegal, immoral and costly actions of an unquestioned President.
I’m just not super optimistic. I’m trying to get into the spirit of chickens comeing home to roost, but I am too struck by the damage done to the home to get very excited over the chickens. I still see a DOJ that is bifurcated like the lawyers for a major criminal enterprise – one set plubbing away on the “legal end” of the business and giving you Delay and Abramoff, but the really disturbing, immoral actions of the administration going, due to DOJ cover, unquestioned and unchecked and the whole country being fundamentally and possibly forever changed by it. Hard for me to get excited over “wins” when I’m not sure I have a team left to root for.
The Evangelical Community is taking a hit on the Reed thing. The GOP badly needs the support of the Xian right.
How better to change the subject than to give DeLay a lot of face time in his “spiritual” costume. And for him, in trouble anyway in “politics”, he can better serve the GOP goals by being SOMEONE in the Evangelical COmmunity than a has-been in the House.
Change the faces. Play up the house cleaning in the “spiritual” leadership in the Evangelical COmmunity at the same time that there’s house cleaning in the GOP. Most people are slow to learn.
Spread out who’s in trouble for what and when among a number of groups to obfuscate the picture. Let them duck and cover for a while longer.
I hope the usual pattern of things seeming to change slowly yields to a little faster, well grounded outrage in the US, from people of all faiths and persuasions and that we will see the day the sheriffs are knocking at the front door while the enlightened faithful are leaving by the back.
We don’t need a flock voting how the wolf should pick us off. We don’t need the wolf!
Thanks cbl.
I think the case against the three is pretty strong, but I think there is a good chance it won’t include DNA. It sounds to me as though this was premeditated, meaning they used condoms. Lawyers for the three are saying that the DNA evidence will clear their clients.
The victim’s father has said she identified the three attackers from pics of the Men’s Duke LaCrosse team.
I also could be wrong about the DNA. The DA required DNA from all european American (46) members of the team, so he appears to have some unidentified DNA in his possession.
IMO it is significant that the DA requested DNA from 46 team members. It sounds as though none of the team could prove they were not at the house that night. This would support how wholly uncooperative the team is being. The police are still not sure who exactly was there and who was not.
It sounds as though the victim did not fall victim to feelings of shame. It sounds as though she went directly to the police, gave her account and had a rape exam. It also sounds as though she had some pretty serious bruising on her face and her leg.
OT: with all the important stories out there, why in the f*ck is CNN headlining the Cynthia McKinney brouhaha? One would think they’re trying to distract the American public from the pressing and substantive issues of our day.
And they’d be right.
The fundies will not hold onto their wacked-out, heretical views less ferociously when presented with reality/facts/truth. They are True Believers and they need their beliefs, their Leaders and the rabble-rousing radio demogogues who help them vent their angry, repressed spleen. This Unholy Triad would, imo, still need to exist in some form — merely the content in each sector could shift, at least enough to keep them focused on anything but the ballot box. We’re never going to change the wackiest parts of their crazy beliefs, or their need for leaders. But slowly and surely, as each leader falls personally and fails politically, they could get, oh, maybe, distracted. And I think working on their beliefs might be a good role for blogs.
Duke victim also lost four nails, which might have epithelials (sp?) under them, could be cross-checked against the DNA samples. All in all, it’s a stark example of the “two Americas” living side-by-side in a single city. It’s great to see the NCCU students out taking back the night in support of their fellow student, the victim who is a mother of two.
Just back from this a.m.’s chores. I’d like to try a short answer to Redd’s question: by (1) finding common ground with everyday religious Republicans and (2) respecting them enough to communicate to them in their terms. Christianity in its essence strives for economic and social justice, nonviolence and a lot of other things that we and they hold in common.
In my view, we need to look for opportunities to work together on local, managable issues to build some trust and then to show that politics should be separate from religion because its the religious institutions that end up corrupted. Examples abound. And if there’s one thing that none of us need, it’s more corruption.
On the subject of communication, I wish I knew more scripture than I do. Getting people out of the Book of Revealations would be a start, so maybe some way to encourage re-discovery of the New Testament would be helpful. I’ve had a little success here, but I’m too ex-R.C. to be effective very often.
At a higher level, I’m not suggesting that we compromise principles, but I do think we and they need to get off the “left-right” continuum and find more dimensions where we can work together. The Atwater-Rove strategy of polarization effectively has confined us all to one dimension, and we have to break out of linearity to get anywhere. I see much more of a Venn diagram with overlaps as the real nature of respective positions. Once surfaced, we can build the kind of coalitions required to address the vital issues that look so intractable now.
I wonder when Christians will wake up? Dems are not the enemy. The thugs are. They pervert everything. Do you suppose this guy Brian Doyle is a member in good standing of some church somewhere? I mean, this is what they do. They use ALL of us.
rwcole # 36 – wow ! you’re all up in the mutha
Old Sow #66
“The Evangelical Community is taking a hit on the Reed thing”
I don’t think it has even started in earnest yet – what are these folks gonna do when Ralphie and Sheldon’s hijinks per Abramoff’s e-mails become public knowledge ?
Ironic, reading the articles, reports and these comments – we are going to have to rely on some sanctimonius true believer to expose this crap when they re-buke Ralphie and the other kids publicly – or someone’s going to outRalph Ralph and out his and the others asses just so he/she can keep the cash rolling in to their coffers – Tony Perkins ?, Don Wildmon ?, or any number of Mega Church Ministers. pass the popcorn
Mary: I agree with what you say. you included more of the big picture.
Old Sow: I gotta wonder, how gullible some of these people are. Bakker, Swaggart, Reed, DeLay, Dobson… the list goes on and on. How many frauds can they fall for before they wise up? They are supposed to be specially warned and on their toes for false prophets too! IMO, some of these extremists want to reach for poisoned unChristian fruit (hatred, heavy judgment, hypocracy, pride), and that is the source of the problem. And they claim to be the most devote Christians. I can’t think of any public process that can change that. That is why I think the best that we can hope for, wrt to many of them, is that they just get frustrated and stay home.
Gang — Nancy Pelosi is going to introduce a privileged resolution on ethics violations dealing with Abramoff/GOP Corruption in a few minutes on C-Span1. Just FYI. This is the 11th time she has brought this resolution to the floor — look for GOP leadership to quickly cut off debate and kill it.
….That DHS guy arrested had his security clearance pulled right away….unlike Rover.
Christian political action? Priest start hunder strike near Hastert’s office.
http://www.suburbanchicagonews…..TS_S1.html
Teddy – The story is sad in that it is possible for this to occur. What were these punks thinking?
The way to talk with the religious folks in USA is to:
1) Keep the topic on economics!
2) If the topic strays to theology, talk about Jesus and economics–see above.
My parents were VERY religious yet both were fierce FDR Democrats. They saw no contradiction–and neither do I. Of course, as a small-town preacher and wife, they understood the NEED for the Social Welfare State because they were often “first responders” to grave social and economic problems.
Thanks great post. I have been thinking a lot about the potential rift between the religious right and republican leadership for a while. And while it is true, as some of the posts point out above, that there is a tendency for the born again foot soliders to not – how shall we say – think critically about their leaders, I would argue there is a great deal of critical thinkers and diversity within the religious right top echelon that we can exploit.
Therefore our goal should be to point out instances where Reed and others mislead the born agains. For example, in that great nation piece linked above, they had one such dissenting leader critical of Reed
“Last June Georgia’s former GOP House minority leader Bob Irvin blasted Reed in an Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-ed. “His M.O. is to tell evangelical Christians that his cause of the moment, for which he has been hired, is their religious duty,” Irvin fumed. “As an evangelical myself, I resent Christianity being used simply to help Reed’s business.”
So we may not be able to break through the Christian cocoon constructed by the Religious right to shield their members from reading a piece like the Nation. But we know their leaders, or would be leaders, like the folks at World magazine will read the MSM coverage of the issue. Promoting this divide in leadership is how the gov took down so many leftist groups in the 60s.
Thus, we should continue to find examples where the right manipulates there religious base for their own profit.
Lucky for us, there are tons of these issues out there. For example, the nation article talks about anti-gambling campaigns run by gambling companies through the religious right. They are more of these in congress right now – not only old ones from Abramoff’s heyday. Right now the GOP is focused on excluding some internet gambling activities and promoting others. There should be a lot of upcoming coverage on these issues.
I can’t imagine this is limited to gambling or porn etc…. These guys call pro business legislation clear skies? Using reverse Rove logic, any piece of legislation labeled pro-religious right by the Republicons should be investigated, and I bet, if this pattern holds true it will always be a sham – aimed to benifit the republicans and inadvertnly hurt the religous right.
For example, anti-choice judges aren’t really all about abortion but more pro a pro-corporate interpretation of civil rights, which diminish individual rights at the expense of private enterprise.
Sorry for the long post….
“the victim who is a mother of two.”
I still have a big problem using the term “victim” when there hasn’t even been any arrests, yet. I’m not too thrilled with the “trial by media” DA either, but that’s me.
Jonathan Larson # 79 – you are the fourth Minister/Reverend on this site that I am aware of which means there’s more
I love it !!!
Minerva — never apologize for length when there is that much meat in your post. Really great thoughts. Thanks!
I guess you can get fired for racial slurs….
ST. LOUIS, MARCH 23 : A St. Louis radio station quickly fired a talk show host for uttering a racial epithet as he talked about Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on his show.
Lenihan had been heaping praise on Rice, who has said she aspires to run the National Football League one day but has more recently ruled out seeking to replace retiring Commissioner Paul Tagliabue.
She loves football. She’s African-American, which would kind of be a big coon. A big coon. Oh my God. I am totally, totally, totally, totally, totally sorry for that.”
He said he had meant to say “coup” instead of the racial slur.
http://www.financialexpress.co….._id=121381
Treatment for US Christian theocrats: spring some founding fathers on them. One of John Adams’ favorite themes was the extreme corruption that occured to any earthly organized religion. That is why he could think the Veddic Hymns to Branman were the most sublime and true religious texts he ever read, and think that the organized Hindu religion of his day was completely corrupted and worthless (he didn’t know much about it, but what he knew of, he thought was very bad). (See, Adams was a good devout little Christian boy like all the rest). So then we say, “hey, that’s what the Unitarian founder Adams, thought… so love the very orginially non-Christian US or leave it.” Probably won’t work, but maybe if deeply impressed the cognitive dissonance will keep them home.
Cozumel – Yes, I agree. Wait for judgements.
Evangelicals split over immigration disappoints Latinos.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01606.html
TPM Muckraker found this on the Homel’d Sec website: http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/i…..e_0211.xml
July 9, 2003:
The Department of Homeland Security today announced Operation Predator, a comprehensive DHS initiative designed to enhance the Administration’s efforts to protect children from pornographers, child prostitution rings, Internet predators, alien smugglers, human traffickers, and other criminals. The President has made it clear that anyone who harms a child will be a priority target of law enforcement in this Administration.
“Operation Predator integrates the Department’s authorities to target those who exploit children,” said Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. “The Department of Homeland Security is coordinating the Department’s once-fragmented investigative and intelligence resources into a united campaign against child predators.”
Regarding the “conversion” of the fundies: who here has had any success at this, in any way, shape or form? Let’s hear about it: not what didn’t work (we all probably could contribute there), but what did. That way, we all can learn.
final thought: problem with bridge to hardest of hard core is that they have a whole hermetic worldview that includes reactionary religion, reationary paternalistic social structure, reactionary economics, reactionary violence and bigotry. Remember that the extreme wingnut wing blends into the vile Christian Reconstruction movement. Dispensationalist Fundamentalists have a set of core beliefs so totally protected from any reality, it cannot be touched, certainly not by anything as mundane and transient as earthly reality. For anyone willing to discuss issues in good faith, then try for bridges. But, with Mary and some others, I think a substantial fraction beyond reach. I hope that is a minority. But if FDL wants to open a dialogue with anyone willing to be civil, I think that would be a very good thing. Can FDL’s connections find Christian conservatives who want dialogue?
I can’t stand the way the House does not operate at all with this rethug majority… it is truly, truly sickening. Watching the thugs shout out as one giant bully against Pelosi.
MSNBC has a possible third Homeland Security pervert. Michael Burks. What is going on?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11152602/page/6/
Thanks Christy I’ll keep writting em. Thanks also for the article, I track this stuff but missed the nation article. Max Blumenthal used to write about this stuff all the time, but I am not sure if he has recently.
My real goal is to get our energy directed towards forward thinking now occurring congressional corruption. We know it is there, and frankly getting bogged down in the trenches of tracking what these jerks already did, while important, is tough work. Important work, but it is also good to dig up the dirt on these new GOP leaders. Get some MSM attention. Etc…
Christy, give The Nation (not CBS) the traffic for its own article. CBS is not our friend, and by using The Nation link, you don’t have to see three or four pages of CBS ad and assorted crapola.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060417/moser
The Devil Inside
by BOB MOSER
the April 17, 2006 issue
Atlanta
Ralph Reed is going to own this room. Granted, it’s only a standard-issue campus auditorium at Emory University, half filled at best for the annual Georgia College Republicans convention. But to the former boy wonder of evangelical politics, it looks like heavenly shelter on this drizzly February morning. The Christian Coalition co-founder’s first campaign for public office–lieutenant governor of Georgia, a position Reed …
Thanks for the heads-up, Christy!
Looking at the tally of the recorded vote on Pelosi’s resolution on C-Span1, only one thought comes to mind…
“Rubber-Stamp Republican Congress!”
But Pelosi sure did cover the whole kaboodle of corruption as read by the clerk Paul Hays. hee. Eventually they will have to face all those truths! Hopefully sooner than later.
Danny Boy what do you mean by conversion of the fundamentals? I don’t think we can ever get them onto our side fully. But we can push for new leaders who take orders less often from the top GOP probusiness guys and more from their members, who want things more in line with their daily lives, instead of banning gays or invading iraq. Like a healthy planet and less human trafficking.
“Rubber-Stamp Republican Congress!â€
Speaking of which . . . ?? More events? A video?
scarecrow thats a perfect example of what we can adn should push from the wapo. thanks
Redd, I’m shocked…Shocked!…That you would single out for castigation such a nice Christian lad as Reed.
;>)
I have read a couple of books recently on the politicalization of the religious right- it’s quite interesting. It all began back in the seventies when the pastors began to see the marketing advantages of certain social issues.
Roe/Wade was gift to them- as was sex education- promiscuity- “gay rights”- etc. They took advantage of a general feeling among many that the country was goin ta hell in a handbasket. Drug use was rampant- and according to the media- everyone was screwin everyone in a bachanall with no rules at all. It was the perfect time to dip into the soup of fear and serve up some “old time religion” to those whose biggest concerns were that their kids would get knocked up and live the rest of their lives in a godless drug induced coma. What the fearful needed was a “tough love” religion- one that set strict boundaries for their kids and wasn’t wishy washy on the rules. They didn’t want a lecture on medieval theology- they just wanted something simple and easy to understand that promised to keep their kids out of trouble- and that’s what they got.
It has been shown repeatedly that much of what passes for “theology” in those circles wouldn’t pass the sniff test for freshmen at a real seminary- but that’s irrelevant.
hey rwcole, what are those books?
scarecrow, I just read that. The last paragraph was great.
Minerva — that’s kinda my point, which is why I was asking if anyone has had any success doing it. Can WE change their leaders? I don’t think so — the harder we push, the tighter they’ll cling. We live out in Fundie-land and find it nigh unto impossible to have any kind of conversation about religion or politics go anywhere with any of these folks — and trust we, we’ve tried (and keep on trying). But if you stay off-topic and just kind of insert stuff, perhaps, maybe sometime they’ll chew on it (and maybe I’m just being delusional here myself).
At base, I just think the movement will fade because the movement will fade — they can’t keep up that intensity forever and their leaders really are mostly scandal-prone creeps. The Rapturers don’t particularly bother me (except, of course, when I think about Palestine/Israel, and then the old bp BOILS), but the Dominionists/Opus Dei creep-o’s, now they truly are terror-inspiring. And their leaders are not buffoons, either.
darkblack – heh, heh
Coz,the DA has stated that her injuries are consistent with rape.
As a Demon Deacon (fan or alum?), I am interested in your opinion about the failure of the Duke Administration to alert their community until the day after their Men’s basketball team lost in the NCAA’s, March 24. The facts that underage drinking and ordering stippers took place March 13/14 by the Men’s LaCrosse on Duke property team was known on March 15 and withheld from the Duke and Durham communities until March 24.
The woman stated she was raped by three european Americans in the bathroom. It’s the other 44 members of the team, who won’t tell us who was in the bathroom with her, that typify this “code of silence.” The 44 presumably couldn’t see through the door, but they refuse to say publicly who was or was not, in the bathroom.
If you have time or the inclination, I am intersted in what kind of legal jeapordy these 44 could be in for withholding information from the police. The police obtained DNA from all european American members of the Team, so presumably, none could prove to the satisfation of the investigators, that they weren’t there.
rwcole-
Google “Rick Scarborough”.
Yep. Flocks to be fleeced, big-time.And, this dude is unabashed about obliterating any church/state separation.
Nation Fan at #94 — thanks for the Nation link. I was in a rush to get the peanut down for a nap as I was drafting this. I like to original source where I can — have changed the links.
Hugh #31.
“If the decision has been made that we can not accept a nuclear armed Iran, then we will strike regardless of the costs”
“For now I think we will continue on the current track. If events change: we effectively withdraw from Iraq or the Iranian program accelerates or someone misjudges, then all bets are off.”
This is exactly why Cheney outed Valerie Plame, it had nothing to do with Wilson. Cheney needed to SHUT DOWN Brewster-Jennings, because they were the watchdog of AQ Khan and all things nuclear Iranian… Kinda like Bush called off the Iraq weapons inspectors BEFORE they could issue a definitive report stating Saddam had NO WMD..
Same shit.. different country to invade….
rwcole: I would like to know books as well.
What is solution. FDL could promise to keep their kids straight (we have an ex-prosecutor on board) –and sell FDL prayer cloths?
Minerva
Can’t remember them all but:
American Theology
How to Read the Bible
God on Our Side (I think)
Are three good ones.
Karen Armstrong’s book on the development of fundamentalist sects in moslem, jewish, and christian religions is also excellent! (Can’t remember the name of the book).
most Black voters are Democrats (92%) and most Black voters are quite religious and church-going — white political analysts often overlook this hugely important Democratic constituency.
pat, minerva – Yep. something about doing it “to the least of these” = “doing it to me.”
I also think that if Bush can seize and hold Padilla indefinitely without charges, attorneys, or trials or even habeas corpus, he can do it to any illegal even easier, and too many won’t care. There’s a straight line running from Padilla through the censure effort to the immigration debate, right across the Constitution. We should be marching in LA.
OT
I really loved Gene Pitney’s music:
Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
When Liberty Valance rode to town the womenfolk would hide, they’d hide
When Liberty Valance walked around the men would step aside
’cause the point of a gun was the only law that Liberty understood
When it came to shootin’ straight and fast—he was mighty good.
From out of the East a stranger came, a law book in his hand, a man
The kind of a man the West would need to tame a troubled land
’cause the point of a gun was the only law that Liberty understood
When it came to shootin’ straight and fast—he was mighty good.
Many a man would face his gun and many a man would fall
The man who shot Liberty Valance, he shot Liberty Valance
He was the bravest of them all.
The love of a girl can make a man stay on when he should go, stay on
Just tryin’ to build a peaceful life where love is free to grow
But the point of a gun was the only law that Liberty understood
When the final showdown came at last, a law book was no good.
Alone and afraid she prayed that he’d return that fateful night, aww that night
When nothin’ she said could keep her man from goin’ out to fight
From the moment a girl gets to be full-grown the very first thing she learns
When two men go out to face each other only one retur-r-r-ns
Everyone heard two shots ring out, a shot made Liberty fall
The man who shot Liberty Valance, he shot Liberty Valance
He was the bravest of them all.
The man who shot Liberty Valance, he shot Liberty Valance
He was the bravest of them all.
Coz, wrt the DA. There are a lot of published reports that few at Duke are “surprised.” The Men’s LaCrosse team had a “reputation.” At least sixteen of 46 had records, most for public intoxication….
If three African Americans had “allegedly” done this to a european American woman in Durham, and their African American teammates refused to tell investigator which three were in the bathroom, and the School’s administration tried to keep it a secret for ten days…. the european backlash would be enormous. IMO the D.A. has to be outfront to placate the African American Community wrt the Duke Administrations silence, jmo.
Danny boy. Point taken on the talking to the religious right, I have a relative who is a faith healer. He is tough to talk to and I will never change his mind, agreed.
But folks have been talking recently about promoting events that will help return the religious right voters to a point where they do not feel powerful or part of mainstream politics. I realize this can be seen as controversial, but I do not want my faith healer relative to be motivated in politics. I feel his world view is incompatible with the way our system operates. I would never suppress his voting rights. But I would promote any messages and articles and coverage that demonstrates to his leaders, not him, that their current leadership is corrupt and doesn’t serve their interests. If they recede from power as a result of disillusionment or new less corrupt leaders emerge, and if their own new leaders sober up because they just can’t take the shit eating grin of Delay and others doing bible studies for photos ops and political cover then I will truly be happy.
Also I can’t think of an example in politics on the dem side where this has been pursued recently. Then again, what strategy in CTG and other valid ideas have been pursued effectively by our party?
The gov did it in the 60s and 70s. Read what they did with the Black Panthers. That is how we need to wage war on the religious right. Otherwise we will wake up watching PAX living in flanders land.
It’s interesting…as a spiritual (personal, first) and religeous (corporate, second) conservative, I’m more libertarian and tend to like conservative fiscal restraint, and progressive/liberal/libertarian social constructs.
I was a Ross voter, feeling the national debt was a serious problem. I’m for curbing the abuses of corporate and large money interests. I’m for personal responsibility, and the unfettered ability to choose whatever religion, spiritual, social values one wants to live by. (In short, if you want to choose to do morally reprehensible things (at least IMO) that don’t hurt others, you have to be allowed to make those decisions…even if I think they are terrible and immoral decisions.
My values, for example, cause me to choose to basically eliminate all TV for my child. (I see basically nothing there worth watching, even PBS, though that can be better. Further, I think TV is simply not healthful for anyone’s mind, including my own – regardless of the content, or virtually so.)
I try to read the Bible every day, and take time to have a *personal* relationship with my God.
But what I see that’s so wrong with the Relig. Right is this.
It’s corporate spirituality over personal spirituality, which is a sham.
Take the Ten Commandments in school/court-houses etc.
What’s that going to accomplish?
If God himself giving the Ten Commandments to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai wasn’t enough to “make†people moral, what chance does posting them have to make anyone different?
The only thing that *can* accomplish my ability to follow God’s law is a personal relationship with HIM which *transforms me.* Without his changing power, reading, following, posting, or eating, the Ten Commandments is simply useless.
So, instead of talking about the God I know and showing why one would choose to have a one-on-one relationship with him, the R-Right posts the Ten Commandments.
Why? I dunno, really, but I’ll speculate.
First, if they were to talk about God in terms of a relationship, that clearly wouldn’t be accepted by those knowing better about the separation of state and religion. (I’m not sure many really believe that without God’s transforming power, I’m powerless to change, either.)
So, to avoid those obvious conflicts, they mold the Ten Commandments into a “Historical Document†and completely strip God from the equation.
In my opinion, that’s the very definition of blasphemy.
blasphemy
n 1: blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred)
2: blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character; “desecration of the Holy Sabbath” [syn: profanation, desecration, sacrilege]
Depriving something of it’s sacred character – isn’t that exactly what they’re doing. Taking Creation, or the Ten Commandments – and ripping God out of them. Further, I have a huge problem with where this takes the people who see the Ten Commandments.
In short, we’re telling them all about the law, but purposely refraining from telling them how they can actually follow God’s law.
The implications of not following God’s law is clear. Death. God’s law is simply a description of how things work. It’s not arbitrary. God says – “If you do these things, they are ultimately self destructive. Please don’t do them, you’ll simply destroy yourself. I’m not just making these laws out of thin air, I’ve seen how the universe works, and when you do these things, bad things result, and you destroy yourself.â€
So, if you believe these things, like I do, and like the R-Right should, here’s the implication.
You’ve told someone:
If you do these things, you’re going to suffer and die.
But when you/they try to actually do them, sans God’s power, the result is failure.
So, in short, you’re telling people – agonize to follow God’s law, but every time you’ll fail and as a result you’ll suffer and die.
So, what’s the point of trying? You’ll never succeed.
Wouldn’t it have been a lot more merciful to simply tell them nothing?
I mean, hey, if someone was certainly going to die, regardless of what they did, why tell them to do something futile that was going to make them more miserable than before. The only merciful thing to do would be to let them do as they will and suffer the same end result.
So, posting the “Ten Commandments†or talking about “Intelligent Design†is not only not helpful, it’s actively cruel.
The only way to make those things useful is to *first* talk about a loving, merciful God who wants to change us to make us better people. Once that’s accepted and we’re talking with God, then HE can impress on each of us, on an individual level what he wants for our lives.
But the error on the religious right seems to mirror the past errors of those who would usurp God’s place. (You’d have thought Protestants of all peoples would remember Luther, ‘eh?)
They appear to claim or believe that, rather than each of us being individually connected and responsible to God, we have to be corporately connected through religion and the religious hierarchy.
Again it appears they have been deceived that, rather than God changing each of us individually, we have the power to create laws, and train the corporate masses’ attention onto “Godly†things and change them for God.
Because the R-Right has lost their way about personal choices and personal relationship with God, I believe they’ve deluded themselves into believing the great lie that man can save himself. The outcome of believing that lie is the completely false way of redemption though “trying hard, making good moral law, giving financial and other benefits for doing ‘good and moral ‘ things.
The Taliban believed the same lies, and it produced a society that isn’t any internally better or more moral than our own. If that kind of regimented authoritarian morality doesn’t make for better people, who is kidding themselves that the society envisioned by the religious right has even a glimmer of hope. (The R-Right knee-jerk reaction will be that Muslims simply don’t have the “truth†and thus the failure of their society. What they miss is they are just as misguided and lacking God’s reality, IMO.)
As I see it. Moral society comes from individuals who are *internally* moral people. Moral individuals come from a healthy intensely personal relationship with God, and not any other way.
The counterfeit way is to try to create moral people (corporatism) with “leadership” or “moral†laws and societal pressure, and rigid leadership.
The first works. The second only serves to rip away the freedoms of everyone to force an external morality on everyone, regardless of their internal moral compass. Further it doesn’t change anyone, and oppresses everyone.
Just food for thought.
Sorry about the long post/rant.
-Greg
Minerva, another thing I would recommend highly is for you to Google Christian Zionism, and also read some of the books and/or articles of Stephen Sizer. They will give you a pretty good history of the beliefs of these people — and they bear very little resemblance to anything you might think of as traditional Christianity. Google Darby, and Scofield, and you will see how the New Jerusalem/mythic Israel turned into real Jerusalem/State of Israel, and waiting for God to begin Armageddon (one interpretation of the Book of Revelations) morphed into *helping* it happen via rebuilding the Temple over a shrine central to all Islam and thereby starting a nuclear holocaust. Those are the Rapturers. Then Google Rushdoonie, and learn about the truly scary ones, who want to turn us into a 12th century theocracy where gays and abortionists and adulterers are stoned to death.
I believe that the flocks are being shorn ruthlessly and not in a christian manner.
Phillips- tracks the growth of the Southern Baptist group as a measure of the growth of “that kind” of religion..but many of the churches “of that kind” are unaffiliated with any national group. That gives the Pastors no controls over how they use the proceeds of the collection plate–add to that the “faith based initiatives” that dole out money to churches on thin pretexts and you’ve got all the potential in the world for financial abuse- and I am certain that it’s happening.
Any reporters here who are looking for a blockbuster story should start digging.
rw, is one of the three below?: “Readers who have followed her lately are learning her more optimistic ideas about what Islam, Judaism and Christianity have in common. Three of these books–”A History of God” (Ballantine, 1993), “Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths” (Knopf, 1996) and “The Battle for God” (Knopf, 2000)–show what unites the faiths. Each, Armstrong writes, has developed the image of one Supreme Being who was first revealed to the prophet Abraham. All have historic links to Jerusalem. And more recently, each has built up a rigid conservative strain as a reaction against the modern world.”
There are different kinds of conservative Christians. I remember a very overtly white gay friend of mine wanted to go to a African-American pentacostal church because he loved the music, and for some reason didn’t want to go alone. Man did we make a pair walking in there. I could see from the literature they had out that these folks were WAY conservative theologically, and I noticed that women could not even physically take position in pulpit of preaching to congregation, though they had made allowances for women to take partial leadership positions and do partial preaching.
They were extremely friendly to us, and invited us to really participate in their services whenever we went. First time, they really wanted us to get up with them and walk around the sanctuary “bearing the cross” with them. I went back and had a few conversations with the pastor. The subject of what flavor I was (straight male) never came up and we had some good exchanges of views. And the music was great. I cannot imagine getting a similar reception from white conservative Christian congregations -at least from my experience. It is not the conservatism I mind so much, but the fear and inotlerance (which reflects, IMO, lack of true faith)
I guess, part of where I was going with that rant is this…
If the religeous right truely believes these things, than no amount of wheedling or otherwise will sway them to a more reasonable way of thinking.
The world view I’ve described compells them to force others to “obey.” It’s their moral duty.
They not only see no reason not to entangle religeon and the state, but if they do not, if they do not force “obedience” they are disobeying what they falsely believe God wants them to do.
This view will perpetuate itself through the leaders these people vote into political and religeous offices etc.
And it all goes back to this: The only way to change those people is for them to choose to relate to God in such a way as to change themselves.
-Greg
“As an evangelical myself, I resent Christianity being used simply to help Reed’s business.”
But if you weren’t useful to the GOP you’d never have made it out of the trailer park. A whore doesn’t make it to the bright lights of the big city without puttin’ out, you know.
.
Scarecrow at #98 — I just watched a rough cut of the video.All I can say is HAHAHAHAHA. Can’t wait until it is done.
Danny Boy, Scarecrow all thanks. These are good book recs. Hopefully I will be able to use any new info for the cause.
There is a chunk of the old testament that was written with the supposition that a religious theocracy existed- (cause it did) so when you combine some very frightened and angry people- a belief in the literal innerancy of every word of scripture- and those portions of the old testament in which there was no distinction between the religious law and the secular law- you’ve got all of the potential in the world for disaster.
I highly recommend Karen Armstrong’s ‘The Battle for God’. It is excellent.
Cool I’ll start there. Of course I am hopefully behind on this subject, I still want to read Under thE bANNER of HEAVEN
waiting for God to begin Armageddon (one interpretation of the Book of Revelations) morphed into *helping* it happen (#118)
I don’t recall anything in Revelation or anywhere else in the NT where *helping* the coming of Armageddon puts you on the right side of it. This is perhaps a useful point with evangelical-fundie people; they might want to do more reading in the book they want everyone else to read.
Gyro Gear Lose says:
April 5th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Burt Bacharach and Hal David wrote that.
A book I’ve recommended before is ‘Fundamentalism” by James Barr. It really goes into the theology of the different types of fundamentalist belief in an easy to understand way. It also explains, in a clear and relatively tolerant way, why many Dispensationalist Fundies would be considered heretics, by traditional Christian standards (and by traditional, I mean back to early Church). I dunno if you can call some one a heretic in a tolerant way, but Barr kind of pulls it off.
Greg: Interesting post. “As I see it. Moral society comes from individuals who are *internally* moral people. Moral individuals come from a healthy intensely personal relationship with God, and not any other way.”
But what if it’s not true? What if “morality” arises for a variety of causes/reasons, and most importantly, can arise in the absence of any “relationship with God?” The Constitution recognizes this: In the First Amendment, there is both a “free exercise”
clause and a prohibition against the state’s “establishment of religion.” You rely on the first clause, but I have to rely on the second; otherwise, you must declare me to be hopelessly immoral.
new thread
Book of Revalation was originally about opposition between values of Chrisitanity and late pagan Rome. Not meant to be taken literally. To get the modern ideas of Second Coming among the rapture set you have to inchoherently combine Revelation, later chapters of Daniel and Isaiah, A couple of short Prophest like Joel, and letters of Paul. And some of Jesus Gospel teachings that refer to some kind of coming judgment -but to take any of Jesus’ parables and riddles and stories and predictions literally it almost sureyly to miss the point.
P.J. Evans — They DON’T read the Bible, that’s the problem: you can’t quote it to them because they really, honestly, don’t know very much of it at all, * especially* the New Testament. What they do know are the comments on the Bible written by Charles Scofield, an alcoholic, disbarred lawyer who suddenly found God and enough money to ensconce himself in the (still exclusive) Lotus Club in NYC and write what is, in effect, a Christian Talmud. His scribblings about Matthew 5 are where the Rapture was born, and it is Scofield, in its many revisions ( especially 1917 and 1948), who cemented the bond of these people with the State of Israel.
This religion, imo, is not something Jesus would recognize at all — and I’m not saying he’d be real happy with some of the other stuff done in his name these past 2000 years.
Christy — thanks. Can’t wait.
“As I see it. Moral society comes from individuals who are *internally* moral people. Moral individuals come from a healthy intensely personal relationship with God, and not any other way.”
I have no in belief in any anthopomorphic “God.” But I obey the laws, have been utterly faithful my wife of more than 25 years, don’t fudge on my taxes, contribute to charities, behave peacefully, am a loyal friend. You can make a coherent case for “morality” simply on utilitarian grounds. This “without God, anything goes” notion is simplistic crap.
Lordy, Lordy…caught wearing my rose colored glasses. Hahaha… Thanks for the wake up. I might have missed out on some snark.
John,
Since the 44 athletes were ordered via warrant to give a DNA sample, I’m not surprised at all that their attorneys advised them to dummy up. That’s standard operating procedure. It’s also being called a “code of silence” which sounds like a term quoted from a tabloid quite frankly.
The media is digging up past indiscretions like public intoxication, urinating in public, etc that have NO bearing on the rape allegation. None of that will would be allowed in a potential rape trial (prejudicial). It does taint a potential jury pool however.
These guys sound like first rate assholes but there’s no law against that. Just sayin’
We’ll see what happens.
John- I think so- but I’m not sure which one. The titleles fade after I’ve read them.
Greg:Interesting posts, thanks.
I do think that any discussion of politics and interacting with religious groups that ignores abortion won’t address one of the majory issues. Abortion is a determinative factor for a core group and no matter how upset they might be on other fronts, they will vote against a pro-choice candidate, and for an anti-choice candidate every time.
All this is going to be EPUs, and since it is OT and a rant, probably just as well. WaPo has this story of some of our “worst of the worst†who were “taken on the battlefield†(and yet not being treated as POWs) and are being held at GITMO. http://tinyurl.com/mqx4x GITMO is a much DOJ creation as is the Tony Rudy trial. DOJ authorized the whole system, from the Exec Orders suspending UCMJ, to the “enemy combatant†categorization, to suspensions of habeas and torture detention, to rendition, to militarization of the response, to suspension of all legal requirements within the militarized response, to breaking FISA law and violating the 4th’s warrant clause for OVER FIVE YEARS, to threatening whistleblowers and blessing it all as flag waving legal.
It’s why I just can’t see the knights in shining armor that you guys do and I wish I could, bc I think you feel better if you believe in the fairy tales. Anyway, the WaPo story is about what happened to some Arab residents of England that knew a man called Abu Qatada. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4141594.stm Qatada “arrived in the UK in September 1993 on a forged United Arab Emirates passport†Hmm, UAE, eh? “Richard Reid and Zacarias Moussaoui, both jailed for involvement in terrorism, are said to have sought religious advice from him.†Tapes of his sermons were also found in an apartment used by people tied to 9/11. He also may have ties to Chechnynan rebels. So, he’s a guy that governments would legitimately want to know more about and he was arrested and held in Britain at one point, then released.
So immediately after 9/11, it’s not a surprise that MI5 went around trying to speak with people who knew Qatada. One that they spoke, Bisher al-Rawi, had come to Britain in 1984 after Hussein tortured his father and confiscated family property.
“One day after the Sept. 11 attacks, two MI5 agents knocked on the door of the house where he lived with his sister and her husband, family members said. The agents asked about Qatada, whom he knew from the mosque. “He was completely gobsmacked,” said Nomi Janjua, his brother-in-law. “He said, ‘What? Secret services?’ I started laughing because we couldn’t believe it.†Still, Rawi agreed to become an unpaid informer, according to the family and his attorneys, a claim that the British government has acknowledged in court without elaborating.â€
Over time, Rawi wanted out of the relationship.
Jamil el-Banna, a Palestinian holding Jordanian citizenship, also received a visit from British and American intelligence agents after 9/11. Banna had come to London in 1994. Before coming to London he worked in an orphanage in Peshawar and met Qatada (also a Jordanian) there. Banna resisted the agents requests to become an informer.
Rawi’s brother solicits investments in a peanut oil plant in Gambia and Rawi and Banna travel to Gambia where they say they were going to help with the plant. Rawi and Banna had been British residents, but not citizens. Banna is visited by agents again right before the trip. “In an interview, Sabah el-Banna [Banna’s wife] said she didn’t recall details of the conversation except that the agents assured Banna that he could fly to Africa. “They said, ‘No, no — go ahead. Good luck in your business.” MI5 records confirm that Banna was given clearance to go.â€
Rawi and Banna try to leave, are held at Gatwick and questioned – no charges – and their trip is delayed for 7 days. Then they are allowed to leave, but immediately on arriving in Gambia are taken into custody there, along with Rawi’s brother (a British citizen) and others already in Gambia. The British citizens are released. Rawi & Banna are interrogated by Americans, then taken to Bagram, then to GITMO. This is in 2002.
In September 2004, the two were brought before tribunals that would determine whether they could be formally classified as “enemy combatants.” The primary evidence against them: they knew Abu Qatada, and had wired money on his behalf to Jordan.
They were also accused of carrying a suspicious electronic device in their luggage to Gambia; British police who stopped them at Gatwick determined it was a battery charger, police reports show.
In testimony during the hearings, the detainees admitted knowing Qatada and helping him transfer the funds, which they said went to a charity. They said MI5 had been aware of all their activities and had encouraged them to interact with Qatada. They also pointed out that British police had them in custody just prior to their trip to Gambia and could have pressed charges if they were suspected of illegal acts.
“We were kidnapped in Gambia, not arrested,” Banna said, according to a transcript of his hearing. “I don’t even know what I have done. . . . If I were a danger to anyone, Britain would have put me in jail.”
The tribunals ruled that both men should be classified as enemy combatants.
The British press and parliament are actually paying attention to this. A parliamentary committee is investigating. “The key issue that certainly concerns me is whether our government, the British government, was involved in something that I would consider to be unlawful,” said Andrew Tyrie, the committee chairman. “I don’t want to live in a country that could be complicit in such abuses.”
Join the club, Andrew. Just wait until you get a copy of the nice memo where our DOJ explains its all legal. Then you won’t have to have those pesky hearing thingys. Just like here. We can even loan you Pat Roberts and our ex-Deputy AG to explain to you why you could have easily done the same things with your British citizens too. No need to be so picky. And we have plenty of people “in Justice†(no irony intended) who can help you out with that “avoid judicial review†thing too.
*s*
dannyboy, others–
I keep thinking that a calm, plain-speaking demonstration of the contrast between what (e.g.) DeLay, Reed, etc. say, and do, and how they consistently violate the spirit of Scripture, would be enough to change some evangelical minds *about them.* Which might lead to further (political) enlightenment.
Am I wrong? You could say, if they believe that stuff to begin with, they can’t be reached by reason. Which I would believe. But surely some of them harbor lingering doubts. I guess what I’m asking is, is it worth it, to make the case, or is it a waste of time?
Also, re the Rapture–
For a truly hair-curling reading experience, gaze at Revelation Unveiled, by Tim Yes-That-Tim LaHaye. It’s a chapter-by-chapter explanation of what the verses mean, what the Rapture will bring, and what the Tribulation will entail. I think he wrote it in 1973 and it is cheerfully, earnestly barking mad. Fun fact: after Armageddon, when the Thousand Year Reign of Christ commences, the heavenly city called New Jerusalem will literally (it’s all “literally”) descend from the sky. It will measure 1,500 miles in length, breadth, and height. Yes, height. LaHaye estimates 20 billion people will live in it, but that’s just an estimate. By my estimate, a trip from one of the upper floors of this metropolis, to the ground for the purposes of, say, taking a walk outside, will be the equivalent of riding an elevator from Baltimore to Dallas. Bring along something to read.
MrWonderful -
I’d love to see an ad campaign variant of the old one showing the native American tearing up at the despoilation of the planet. Recall?
e.g., a montage of BushCo era et al outrages: Iraq, DeLay, Cheney, Enron, Schiavo, Katrina, etc, fading to Jesus tearing up at the crap perpetrated by those purporting to have a lock on His affection.
MrWonderful-
Stupid shit, all of it. Comic book intellect BS.
MrWonderful: High-speed elevators, obviously. And I’m curious about how they justify the 20 billion people with the claim from Revelation of 144,000 … oh, gee, that’s gotta be figurative! [/snark]
I prefer the much more honest Calvinism of my great-grandfather, who shocked his fellow Presbyterian elders by coming out in favor of dances in the church recreation hall. (His reasoning was that then they’d know where the young people were and who was keeping an eye on them.)
BobbyG and Scarecrow…
That’s the beauty of our system. You can believe I’m full of crap.
You’re welcome to believe anything you want. Time and reality will be the test of it.
If I’m wrong, I’ve done nothing except to myself. I’ve not foisted my morals on you, by creating moral laws etc.
My point is just this. Christianity is clear in it’s basis on the Bible, that only God changes humans into internally unbroken people. If you choose to believe in Christian ideals, then you have to also believe that any effort to change people through some means other than the relationship with God is a failed effort.
However, God values choice above all else. You are welcome to choose any path you wish.
Eventually each of us is individually responsible for the choices we’ve made. (I can declare you (and myself) to be wrong, immoral and making bad choices. However, I must respect your choice to do so.)
Cheers,
Greg
I loved it when the European Union was the anti-Christ. I understand why the USSR wouldn’t work anymore and they abandoned that -it fell apart. Not sure why China was ousted so quickly after it replaced the USSR -but it was kind of boring since the geography and brutal godless communisim stuff was too much the same. Same material but not quite the same with a different face. I think the numerology of the EU went off the rails when it started expanding. I sure do miss the EU as anti-Christ, though. I guess they can’t bring it back, the EU doesn’t blow up enough stuff, so have to cook up Islamic country now. Iran, I guess, if your going to work it in with neocon death festivals.
And while I am safely EPU’d and still stuck on GITMO, here’s another link. http://tinyurl.com/j8773 They have finally started the “tribunal†of the 19yo (15 when taken) Khadr. His father was an al-Qaeda financiar and has been killed and the son was shipped around to various al-Qaeda training camps. During the Afghan invasion, the military raided the camp he was at and there was a firefight and Khadr threw a grenade that killed an army medic. He is now charged with conspiring to commit war crimes and murder (I wonder if they are considering the 60 day home arrest given in connection with the torture murder of the Iraqi general by a US Soldier? nah)
Anyway – Khadr’s military lawyer has been having trouble. I guess the main thing is no one told him he’s not really supposed to bother with a *defense* bc DOJ has already ok’d this as a no holds barred presidential “race to fiatâ€. “His military lawyer, Lt. Col. Colby Vokey, angrily said Khadr had been moved to solitary confinement “for no reason whatsoever” on March 30, making it difficult to prepare a defense.â€
So Khadr pulls what must be the training book response out (bc everyone seems to use it) and says he won’t “participate†in the trial.
Khadr spoke softly but Vokey shouted and slapped the table during a heated argument with the presiding officer, Marine Col. Robert Chester, who recessed the hearing and asked to see Vokey in private.
Wonder how that went?
The hearing resumed later under protest from the defense attorneys.. OK , prepare for this – the reason? They said it was an ethical violation for them to continue after their client asked them to take no further action until the solitary confinement ended
Did no one tell them that Mora left and took what ethics were left with him? Apparently not, bc he had some other words. Vokey retorted that the tribunal rules were unclear and not based on any legal framework, a common complaint from military lawyers assigned to defend the 10 Guantanamo prisoners charged before the tribunals.
“There’s no precedent here,” Vokey fumed. “I don’t know what rule to look to. I don’t know what law to look to.”
Yoo who! Vokey, pal, this is covered already. It’s the “President says so, so it’s legal†law that DOJ made up as they went along. Sheez! Who knows what kind of lunatic you’ll be when they had off the US citizen cases to you. No promotions for you until you get with the program. BTW – this guy named Andrew Tyrie needs a drinking buddy- you’re it.
Greg, I will respect anyone’s beliefs as long as they don’t seek to impose them on me. I find stuff like “the Bible says this/that” and “God values x” pretty juvenile in the face of such a VAST universe. To me it’s simply a Wishful Thinking projection of human values onto The Infinite.
My ONLY earlier point was that I can be “moral” absent some anthropomorphic “God” authority figure.
PJ Evans–
Not so fast, bunky. The 144,000 are going to be Jewish virgins who will proselytize for Christ. What makes the 20 billion of dubious credibility is the “fact” that something like one-third of the entire world will be killed (by the Anti-Christ, and the various Tribulation events) by the time it’s all over. But you’re right–I forgot about express elevators.
Snip from the new James Fallows Atlantic Monthly article on Iran:
“…As it has watched Iran’s evolution, the United States has delivered more and more studied warnings that “all options remain openâ€â€”code to the Iranians that they should worry about an attack. In different ways, George W. Bush and two aspiring successors, John McCain and Hillary Clinton, have expressed this view. Government officials in Israel have been more explicit still, with the defense minister saying that Israel “will not accept†Iran’s acquisition of nuclear weapons. Intellectuals, activists, and out-of-power politicians from Newt Gingrich to Benjamin Netanyahu have all urged their leaders to stand firm.
The biggest change has been in what Soviet strategists used to call the “correlation of forces.†Every tool at Iran’s disposal is now more powerful, and every complication for the United States worse, than when our war-gamers determined that a pre-emptive strike could not succeed. Iran has used the passing time to disperse, diversify, conceal, and protect its nuclear centers. Instead of a dozen or so potential sites that would have to be destroyed, it now has at least twice that many. The Shiite dominance of Iraq’s new government and military has consolidated, and the ties between the Shiites of Iran and those of Iraq have grown more intense. Early this year, the Iraqi Shiite warlord Muqtada al-Sadr suggested that he would turn his Mahdi Army against Americans if they attacked Iran.
Economically, Iran also has far greater leverage than before. Through 2004, the price of a barrel of oil averaged less than $40. In 2006, it has been above $60, an increase of more than 50 percent. Rising demand from China, India, and, yes, the United States has left virtually no slack in the world’s oil markets. OPEC’s “spare†production capacity—the amount it could quickly supply beyond current demand—is about 1 million barrels a day. Iran now supplies about 4 million barrels a day. If it chose to, or had to, remove much of its oil from the market, a bidding war could send the price of a barrel of oil above $100. Eventually, everyone would adjust. Eventually, the Great Depression ended.
Perhaps the American and Israeli hard-liners know all this, and are merely bluffing. If so, they have made an elementary strategic error. The target of their bluff is the Iranian government, and the most effective warnings would be discreet and back-channel. Iranian intelligence should be picking up secret signals that the United States is planning an attack. By giving public warnings, the United States and Israel “create ‘excess demand’ for military action,†as our war-game leader Sam Gardiner recently put it, and constrain their own negotiating choices. The inconvenient truth of American foreign policy is that the last five years have left us with a series of choices—and all of them are bad. The United States can’t keep troops in Iraq indefinitely, for obvious reasons. It can’t withdraw them, because of the chaos that would ensue. The United States can’t keep prisoners at Guantánamo Bay (and other overseas facilities) indefinitely, because of international and domestic challenges. But it can’t hastily release them, since many were and more have become terrorists. And it can’t even bring them to trial, because of procedural abuses that have already occurred. Similarly, the United States can’t accept Iran’s emergence as a nuclear power, but it cannot prevent this through military means—unless it is willing to commit itself to all-out war. The central flaw of American foreign policy these last few years has been the triumph of hope, wishful thinking, and self-delusion over realism and practicality. Realism about Iran starts with throwing out any plans to bomb.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200605/fallows-iran
Such are the fruits of allowing an incoherent dilettante into the U.S. Presidency.
Where I live — no matter where I’ve lived — there are “bridges”. Even while in the Air Farce, I spoke. Lots-n-lots of people disagreed. Lots-n-lots listened too. It was never a matter of wanting or needing to win, for all that is required is to voice as an individual.
I do not have a television. I do not watch movies. I do not listen to the radio. Those are all vehicles of conditioning that are all dangerous to an individual’s self. I do not need or want to be told what to do or say or think, not as nation or a church or a religion. Just because ‘it’ is there, does not mean it is good or needed or required. It is up to each individual. The ‘conditioning’ is only possible when a person gives up their individuality.
The individual should always be there. Society, a very great evil to individuality, aims to bind us all into one. True Christians, of which there are maybe sixteen, know not to be ‘grouped’; A true Christian will never be found in a religious/group environment. Those that allow themselves to be grouped are psuedo-christians, speaking words but not living the way of life that is true to Jesus.
I know no one that can honestly and factually tell me that there really ever was a Jesus. That is the ‘point of it all… They do not really care if there was, and so it is possible to lie, and for those lies to be accepted. That is how Ralph Reed works and that is how G.W.Bush works. Lying begets lying. That is the way it always has been, and religious people do it the best for they do it all of the time, as a way of life and living.
And as the aforementioned goes, the importance and value of money is a lie. It is all real, and really imaginary. It can be anyone’s god as they see fit. As such, all can be an evil(?) god with money, but more often than not, money will be a good(?) god. So it is with christians and jews and islamic and whomever. The only game in town — any town (religion) — is money.
The chasm is imaginary.
Each individuals important is imaginary.
Value… What is it to each individual?
If it goes no further for a person than that, the individual — the soul — is easily bought. That is the real “chasm”.
Individuality for each and every individual, done by the termination of legalized favoritism (churches and political parties and charities and social groups and whatever) has to and needs to stop, else what just happened as depicted by the actions of the GOP and organized religions will keep on happening.
[Sigh]… It ain’t gonna happen… Never-ever for a group or even the leader or leaders of a group. It will only be so for individuals. But, there is no money to be made if each is an individual… So, we have grouping and all the evil(?) that is within and without.
Just remember, your satans are your gods… Always and forever:-)
Greg, I will respect anyone’s beliefs as long as they don’t seek to impose them on me. I find stuff like “the Bible says this/that†and “God values x†pretty juvenile in the face of such a VAST universe. To me it’s simply a Wishful Thinking projection of human values onto The Infinite.
My ONLY earlier point was that I can be “moral†absent some anthropomorphic “God†authority figure.
*Grin*
Obviously we’ll agree to disagree! IMO, ultimately the only (reasonable) way is to allow each his own choice, using his own mental powers to determine what is right or wrong. Each will reap the result of those choices.
(I’ll just note that I’m not condeming anyone any more than myself – at least in terms of “moral-ness.”)
My last word on this, is look at internal behaviors, not external. Do we always do what’s right, for the right reasons – in all areas? Is it something we really *want* to do? For myself, the answer is no.
I’d just ask tolerance on both sides. Rather than mock me as an idiot, who believes fanciful crap, view me as perhaps sadly misguided, but harmless. Some of us who progess a strong belief in God and such don’t have ill will toward you at all. We don’t view you as full of crap. In the vast majority of cases, my spiritual and religeous beliefs are mine in private. I only discuss them here because they’re relevant to the issue being discussed.
This, IMO, is how it ought to be. My spirituality is mine, privately. If you’re a friend and ask about it, or we discuss the issues in detail then it’s appropriate for me to bring it up. Pushing my views on an unwilling “victim” does neither of us any good, and probably hardens your “unbelief.”
Best wishes,Greg
When the far right and evangelicals start to lose that political momentum, it ain’t gonna be pretty. Percieved persecution will cause a serious lashing out.
Hope the serious ugly partisanship gets a little under control before the collapse happens.