god god god

fitz

Christy: I can’t begin this thread in the usual way…it just doesn’t feel right.

But, your message is so important and so serious for all the parents or guardians out there. Thank you.

Background check, indeed. Homeland Sec is a mess, and is an emblem of this Administration.

Also, OT, I need to find the picture of coathanger with blood that was on FDL about 3 weeks ago.

Thanks.

Censure, then castrate. Repeat.

Is there any way to tie this back into the administration’s insistence on the power to “hire and fire” at DHS without the usual labor protections?

Rahm Emanuel brings up both of these slimeballs and DHS and the lack of accountability in the WH on the floor just now. “For once Mr. Speaker, I am speechless.”

I’m solidly anti-death penalty, but for some reason with pedophiles I not so sure.

Christy — Thank you so incredibly much for this posting. Yes, hideous stuff, but this information needs to be right “out there” where everybody can see it — and not just parents, but aunts, uncles, friends, neighbors, and yes, delivery-people, contractors: i.e., anyone and everyone. You have performed a marvelous public service and the only thing I would add to it is, well, the obvious: this guy was after a girl, not a boy. Pedophilia has nothing to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with a need to dominate and have one’s sexual urges met by… a child.

And thank you, Christy, for your work and that of other prosecutors who work to bring to justice child predators, football team rapists, and politicians who use their power of legislation to perpetrate their own forms of violence on individuals.

if this story is not a ripe metaphore for the horrid treatment of children under the bush cabal, i do not know what would be . . .

damn: everyday another disgusting gop criminal; what will today bring?

I can never understand why anyone would let their kids have a computer in their room. If I should ever have kids, there will be a single computer in the house in a space accessible to all. Same goes for TV and a phone.

I got bigtime molested at 13 by a respectable asshole just like this

But…But…the Religious Right says it’s gay men who are the pedophiles…How could they be wrong about that???

- “I’d say that our government needs an enema, but those bastards would probably enjoy it.”

(typo it article title is my edit)

State senators son, 2nd teen admit brooming
By Stephanie Innes
Arizona Daily Star

Go read the above article. Here’s what happened in a nutshell: a Republican State Senator’s son, who is 18 years old, can use a broomstick to fuck in the ass a total of 18 jr. high school boys and not be charged with sexual assult. In fact he is charged with a single misdemeanor count of aggravated-assault. Thank God the GOP is sticking up for Family Values. Apparently when an adult Repbulican wants to FUCK A CHILD IN THE ASS WHITH A STICK… THAT’S NOT A SEXUAL ASSULT !!!!

Leahy says there is ethnic and religious McCarthyism occurring now in the Senate. He is defending Ken Salazar who apparently got slammed. Leahy says they tried to do the same with him when they attacked him for being anti Catholic and anti Italian. I am curious what was said about Salazar, we could use it as an example of rethug racism…

I specialized in family violence in my clinical training. I disagree with Christy’s prosecutorial perspective, formed by her experience.

By the time a prosecutor deals with someone, they are likely to be the worst part of the sample of those whose fantasies lead them toward kid or adolescent porn.

Not all of these characters are the same. I don’t have time to get into this, and I’m not at all defending predation or attempts to seduce minors.

But we tend to get very enraged when any of this stuff comes up, and it clouds our ability to make distinctions. Treatment works for some of these people, especially if they are young, have the ability to empathize with victims, are motivated and can learn to build adult ties of intimacy with an age related peer.

Arguments about these kinds of crimes take on the same dynamics as drug offense arguments from the right. Not all drug offenses are the same, and not all drug offenders are the same. Building more jails without resources for diagnosis, rehabilitation and treatment is bad policy that creates more hardened offenders and recidivists than it cures.

Thank you Christy for putting this horrible crime into a proper perspective.

“We do things backwards in this nation — and how we deal with pedophiles is one of them.”

“Most pedophiles that I’ve had to deal with in my legal career were molested themselves as children. A lot of them grew up in families where they were routinely molested by a parent or step-parent so that they grow up thinking this sort of behavior is normal. Not every person who is sexually molested becomes a pedophile —”

As a person who was routinely sexually abused while a child, this is a topic that cuts deep on a personal level. Until our collective attitude toward our children changes radically, our culture will remain a breeding ground for pedophilia. In my mind, it is not only a matter of law enforcement (which can’t get involved until after the crime has been committed and is akin to plugging up holes in a leaky dike one at a time), but a matter of showing our children as a nation that they are precious gifts to cherish and nurture.

OT.

It was an outrage about Sam Alito being questioned for his sketchy connections back at Princeton. But McMinney–she’s just a racist.

REP. DELAY: ‘Cynthia McKinney is a racist. She has a long history of racism. Everything is racism with her. This is incredible arrogance, and — that sometimes hits these members of congress, but especially Cynthia McKinney’

-GSD

Thank you Christie for the insight and terror of this issue…

Barbara at Mahablog has an interesting take on Evil and this particular story that also throw a bit of light on this issue.

http://www.mahablog.com/2006/0…..ying-evil/
http://www.mahablog.com/2006/04/05/schadenfraude/

Sharkbabe, I am sorry for you.;(

Enlightening article. When you say
“there is one thing about which I am absolutely certain: you can never cure a pedophile and were molested themselves as children”, can a child who has been molested by one of these monsters be helped? In other words, can the circle be broken if a child receives help while they are still children or are they lost and in danger of becoming pedophiles themselves? Are there any stats on this?

Sharkbabe: that’s horrible. Hope you got the support you needed somewhere along the way.

Can I just ask, how BIG a problem is this? I dont mean pedophilia, these guys need to be locked away and have the key thrown away. I mean how many are we talking? is this big?

Treatment works for some of these people, especially if they are young, have the ability to empathize with victims…

A pedophile that has the ability to empathize with it’s vitim???

non sequitur

Sharkbabe, have you talked to anyone since this happened?

goodness Christy, could you have laid it out any straighter ? this is a common (and well justified) neurosis of most parents and yet most of us still practice a form of denial often by skimming or avoiding info like your column – and I’ve encountered othewise great parents who live in the ‘that always happens to other families’ bubble.

Our 5 kids constantly whined about the tight leash (they don’t know the half of it) and why they couldn’t do some of the things their friends did- but we did it knowing that even with vigilance, one of these monsters could still find a way

frankly, I’m not sure background checks would’ve prevented either of these 2 DHS pukes from being hired – maybe – but I’m of the camp that says we still don’t know enough about pedophillia to pick these monsters off – and even if they’d somehow fit an established ‘profile’, then we get in to a very murky area of law enforcement. No, I am not going all futile on ya, it’s just my way of saying a whole lot more resources need to be committed to this problem

gforcewinds:

I have to head out toameeting and will be out most of the day.

Short answer: there are stats. I left clinical work a long time ago now so I am not up to date. Bottome line: there is no 1:1 correlation between being a childhood victim and being an adult offender. Only a minority of childhood victims become offenders. And as I recall, only about half of adult offenders were victimized as children, as far as we can tell.

My stats in mind are old, but that’s what I recall frmo my doctoral work.

cupholder:

Define “pedophile,” please. That would help us talk the same language.

and regarding all the people talking about whether or not background checks would have found anything, well, we wont know. but this guy was one of the top DHS people. HE DAMN WELL BETTER HAVE HAD A BACKGROUND CHECK.

Christy: Is there such a thing as an “entrapment” defense where the perp suspect claims he/she was being set up? In this case, Doyle was actually communicating with a policeman, not an actual child. What is the legal definition of entrapment if there is one, and how does it work from both the prosecution side and the defense side?

OT but – TM has just posted Clarice’s latest smear job on Fitzgerald on Justoneminute. Not sure why Maguire takes her seriously, but a search of Clarice’s comments on justoneminute is …. illuminating. Who knew Iraq was responsible for the first world trade center bombings?

Baloonjuice #6 — I don’t know exactly how they are doing the background checks for Homeland Security, but I have done sit-down interviews for friends who have applied for CIA jobs and for State Department jobs when they were doing background info. They were fairly thorough in terms of what they asked and what they looked into — although you are right that it would be tough to turn up information on someone who had never been arrested. Normally, though, there is suspician information that you can glean from a pull on the FBI’s priors information network, even if there is no conviction. (Say there was a suspician that was investigated, but not charged or convicted, etc.) I guess I would just feel better if I knew what inital screening they were using on this — but two officials being nailed within a fairly short period of time (one for an online predator profile, one for a sexual exposure) seems like it ought to at least raise questions on the employment screening and qualifications/background information that DHS is using. It’s a question that someone in Congress with oversight capacity ought to be asking — even if there is no firm answer to it.

Thank you for the this post. My daughters always read firedoglake over my shoulder, so you have given me another teaching opportunity–so many are needed to help navigate this dangerous world.

I’m a social worker in foster care system–and agree with Christy. This needs to be taken seriously always, because you never know where they are in their molesting “career”, how many children they have groomed and devestated. When it comes to a sexually harming a child, there are no small offenses.

Following up on Pachcutec’s comment, part of what is wrong with our law enforcement only approach is that we don’t care enough to notice the early signs and symptoms sexual abuse which could lead to early intervention and prevent a hurting young person from growing up and becoming a pedophile. Pedophiles who were abused as children cannot empathize with their victims because no one ever noticed or empathized with their trauma. In a sense, they are simply re-enacting their own trauma out on another child. They were not “seen” as children, thus they don’t “see” the humanity of any child. If people can get past reactive judgement, they could begin to see that a person does not become a pedophile “overnight.” That said, when it does occur, I do think that effective law enforcement is absolutely necessary simply to prevent a pedophile from hurting other children.

yeah I did a lot of talkin – but it took a long time – thanks guys

Thank you, Christy, for a powerful post. As the mother of a molest victim, I can certainly attest to the impact it has on the life of the child and family. My daughter was molested from age 6 until 14 by a family member during visits to her father’s house. She disclosed at age 14 and has been in a residential treatment facility since age 15 in an effort to keep her from self-mutilating and suicidal ideology. She is now 17 and still doing self-harm. She blames herself.

I commend all those who have waded into that cesspool to investigate and prosecute these crimes. Thank you, Christy, from the bottom of my heart for all the work you have done, and continue to do, to make this world a safer place for all.

When I was working as a reporter, I interviewed the first man in our state to be civilly committed as a sexual predator (I also interviewed the mother of one of his victims.) I was expecting Hannibal Lecter. That’s not what I found. He cried throughout the four-hour interview, described the ongoing sexual abuse he suffered as a kid. He left home, joined the military, and worked as a door-gunner on a helicopter in Vietnam. Came back and began his career as a loser and a predator–but never during that time did anyone ask, how’re you doing? what’s up? he just got jailed and jailed and jailed and never “treated”–whatever that might mean. I was horrified by his actions but saddened by his very broken life. I think the overall point is that this society cares little about kids–then and now.

Ugh says: April 5th, 2006 at 7:18 am
“I can never understand why anyone would let their kids have a computer in their room. If I should ever have kids, there will be a single computer in the house in a space accessible to all. Same goes for TV and a phone.”

Amen! That is exactly what I did with my kids and I felt much more comfortable because of it. Any family member could walk past the computer at any time and glance at what was on the screen, which also meant that my kids could do the same when I was using the computer. (Alternatively, one could require that the computer be unable to access a network — which is what I did for a number of years.)

I agree that background checks are unlikely to have made a difference … unless there was a prior arrest, of course.

Can’t find a web page for the Office of Public Affairs at Homeland Security, in order to do more due diligence on Brian Doyle.

On this organizational page the office is mentioned, but no web link:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=9

On this page is Doyle’s boss:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/d…..ntent=4365

And these fine DHS specimens have security clearances, correct?

I know 2 girls that were assaulted by someone that they knew. He was not prosecuted. One has struggled to make her life work, the other’s life is ruined. Actually ruined.

As a Christian I cannot wish that someone would end up in hell, but it’s close.

For more information about sexual violence you may (or may not) find the contact info at the bottom of my recent Kos diary useful.

Here.

Bill Selznick #15 – just stunning

As I said, I have to head out in fifteen minutes, but a couple of points:

Most sex abuse is done not be strangers or online predators, but by family members or friends.

Fanstasies of adolsecents don’t have the saem clinical significance as fantasies about prepubescent kids.

Those who take action to put live out their fantasies are of a different kind than those who do not.

Those like this DHS guy who are advanced in chronological maturity who tale active steps to groom a victim are harder to treat with success, all other things being equal.

Tears and lametnations are not necessarily evidence of the ability or intention to reform by an offender. The real bad ones can be very manipulative and pathological. That said, early intervention in the chain that could lead to offense can prevent many disordered people from becoming offenders.

Victims should get more support, and families need earlier crisis identification and crisis prevention.

Pach: I can see where young offenders – molested themselves – can be rehabilitated by helping them identify with their victims, but the recidivism rate is ungodly for pedophiles. Would you be willing to trust a child to one of these ‘rehabilitated’ monsters?

As the mother of a 13yo daughter who was molested by a deacon of our church at age 6, my personal opinion is that death by lethal injection isn’t enough. I’d like child molesters to be drawn and quartered on the courthouse lawn.

I’d like defense attorneys who attack the then-7yo testifying (a year later) against her attacker to spend a month dealing with a child who is emotionally traumatized by sexual abuse.

My daughter deveoloped anorexia and bulimia. By the time of the trial, she weighed 41 lbs, and had to be begged to eat, and then watched for one hour after meals, so she wouldn’t go to the bathroom and make herself vomit.

She had nightmares and woke up screaming five or six times a night – every night – for months, convinced her molester had broken in the house and was killing her brothers (the threat he used against her).

I do get enraged when I hear about another child being a victim of a sexual predator, and if we can’t kill them, we certainly ought to protect other children by locking them away forever.

orangejumpsuit #31: It’s not entrapment if the perp initiates the sexual conversation. Officers who do this sort of undercover work are VERY careful in how they do it. They pose, for all intents and purposes, as a 14 year old child. Meaning they get online in a teen chat room and talk about what’s the latest with Britney and why Paris Hilton’s latst outfit is icky, etc., etc., and when a perp contacts them via IM, they don’t lead the conversation or steer it in any way. It would be just as if the perp were talking to a real 14 year old. They keep meticulous records — every single conversation will have been saved, printed off and catalogued, and you can bet that the person who first brought up anything flirty was the perp, the person who suggested anything sexual was the perp, etc. It would be entrapment if the officer went into the chatroom and said “Ooh, I’m 14 and I’m hot for a 50 year old hunk of man. Who wants me?” But when that 50 year old man is the person who brings up the sexual stuff — and this takes several conversations, because they normally have a long, disgusting routine of befriending and grooming the kid before they try to get them to send sex photos or get some sexual gratification out of it or have a phone conversation or what have you. (Yeah, I do know WAY more about this than I ever wanted to know in this lifetime…)

In every case I’ve ever worked or been associated with, the officers are VERY careful that any and all initiation and suggestion comes directly from the perp. No entrapment at all — he could be doing this with any child you know.

Well, I have to dissent here. Let’s start with some facts.

(1) The guy is not a pedophile. The APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines pedophilia as having sexual urges towards children, defined as 13 or younger.

(2) Most experts would consider this a case of ephebophilia, not pedophilia.

(3) Though the rate of recidivism is high for child molesters is high, it is lower than the rate of recidivism for persons convicted of sexual offenses against adults, such as rape.

(4) Justin Berry was “abused” only under the broadest possible definition of the term. A more accurate description is that he produced and sold child pornography (of himself) for money to people he never met in person.

(5) The distorted description of both these cases — the Berry cases and the Doyle case — are instances of a sort of occupational shibboleth on the part of Ms. Smith. Prosecutors widely advocate for definitions of pedophilia and sexual abuse which are generally not supported by any scientific consensus.

Careful, you call the guy “Pedophile”, identifying him with a photo.

Just remember Richard Jewell…flashback:

NEW YORK (CNN) — Richard Jewell, the security guard who was the focus of the investigation into the Olympic bombing before he was cleared by the government, reached a settlement of more than $500,000 from NBC, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

…snip…

The case centered on comments anchorman Tom Brokaw made on the air after Jewell was named a possible suspect in the July 27 blast during a concert at Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park.

END

When I first started out as a lawyer, I did some felony appointment work, mostly to get my feet wet in front of the Common Pleas judges. In Ohio, there are thousands of sex offenders in prison who were sentenced before the law concerning Sexual Predator registration was passed. They must now be classified. Its a fairly simple procedure, and not much room for a young lawyer to muck it up, so I seemed to pull a bunch of them.

What stuck with me is how normal they all were (as normal as anyone in a prison jumpsuit can seem). Every defendant lies to their lawyer, and most of the time its pretty transparent. But not with these guys. They can lie like only a person afflicted with a psychosis can.

Bottom line is I am extremely conflicted about what to do with these people. On the one hand, they “pay their debt,” they get out, they register, and then they are subjected to unbelievable harassment. On the other hand, I’m convinced Christy is right, there is no cure. I’m a parent, and I don’t want them next door. Do you institutionalize them, for life? Maybe. I just don’t know.

Christy brings up a good point.By the time a pedophile is caught,they usually have a fairly large number of victims in their wake.

I wish someone would start asking in a highly visible way why it seems like our country has so many people(mostly male)who are sexual preditors.What is going on here? On one level I can understand how someone goes from victim to abuser,but what about those who weren’t abused who go on to do this?And since not all people who suffer abuse go on to become abusers,the abuse itself can’t be the only reason,can it?

All I know for sure is that my 12 yr old son will never have the computer in his room go online.He can use my computer(which is in my little kitchen office,I designed this kitchen with that very thing in mind)where I can see him,and he’s not allowed to use chat software.Maybe when he’s old enough to pay for his own ISP,we’ll revisit that issue,but for now,no freaking way.

Can I just ask, how BIG a problem is this?

Well, 1 in 4 children has been molested. I’d say that was pretty big. If each pedophile molested 100 children, that would mean maybe 2-3 percent of the population (not sure I’m doing the math right, however; I think that assumes the population of children and adults is about equal).

As for entrapment, yeah, it happens. A few years ago the FBI (I think it was them) mailed out child pornography to suspected pedophiles. That was clearly wrong. But in online chat rooms, all you have to do is identify yourself as a child and wait. It isn’t necessary to offer any inducements that would be considered entrapment.

I was abused by a family member. That said, that family member also abused other children who were not family members. For that reason, I think the easiest way to ‘catch’ it and prevent it within the context of the family, but that cannot happen unless the culture as a whole is willing to take note of and get involved in all sorts of family dysfunction and abuse. The family member who abused me was not abused sexually as a child (we don’t think, but since he was never willing to own up to what he did, there may be things about his life we don’t know). But he was abused, physically and emotionally (horrific So Baptist family…).

Pac, I understand where you are coming from, but as a criminal defense attorney (federal court only), I gotta agree with Redd on this one. These guys (and 99.99999% are men)are verrrry difficult to cure; partly cuz they won’t admit to themselves or anyone what they have done, or blame the victim, so making headway for a “cure” is tough. It’s almost like they still see themselves as the victim of their molestation, while trying to exert control over someone, something. One attorney in my office handles most of these cases, under my supervision, and it is tough on everyone—there’s generally no defense, no mitigation, and so empathy/sympathy from anyone within the system (should there be? well perhaps, given the premise that most predators were abused). These are the clients that cause a defense attorney to remind themselves how much they believe in the Constitution and the role defense attorneys were expected to play. Elsewise we wouldn’t be anywhere near them.
This guy will be looking at big federal time–huge federal time, probably never get out of jail federal time, and I don’t know how the feds can not pick it up.
Redd–you might want to put “alleged” up before pedophile–I know it diminishes the impact, but it will keep the WV state bar off your ass.

Pach — agree with you on the early treatment need. I did have to deal with the most advanced cases — but I also had to deal, on occasion, with juveniles who were caught as offenders. Even at that under 18 age, it was sometimes an enormous struggle in terms of treatment and prevention of recidivism, depending on the circumstances. I think we can both agree that the way things are done within the current system is less than adequate (and that’s putting it very mildly).

well this may be the last time I ever post here, but:

I’ve defended quite a few of these cases. Somehow I got one case – in Indianapolis all of these guys are kept separated from the gen pop – and I guess word got around. Suddenly I had a bunch of them.

Of all the ones I did, I only had one where I became convinced that my guy was in fact an evil fucker. I’m pretty sure I would have won at trial, but I withdrew anyway. I don’t consider that to necessarily be a point in my favor – I’ve always had mixed feelings about bailing on that one.

Most of these guys are hard-wired differently. Their true, at-the-core sexual attraction is, for some reason, aimed at children. It’s not an act, for the most part it’s not evil, it’s where nature, for some reason, has pointed them. They are fully aware of what society thinks of them, and they loathe themselves for it – still – sexual attraction is powerful, and a fact of life. Almost all of the cases I saw were fondling cases.

I’m a heterosexual male – some others here are homosexual males and females. We’re the lucky ones. Our sexual inclinations are to one degree or another acceptable. Can you imagine what life would be like if your natural attraction was toward children? I don’t understand it – don’t even pretend to – but I know what I saw – and for the most part it was human beings being human. I think back often to a case where I had a kid who was 18, and had fondled a boy of about 8 yrs. The pain, disgust, and as I said, self-loathing present in that kid was hard to see – I hope that today he is all right – I hope that he is still alive and hasn’t taken his own life.

I eventually found that I was not cut out to be a crim attorney. If one cannot leave the cases in the office and not take them home day after day, it’ll hurt you. I eventually lost the ability to eat or sleep, and had a fairly massive breakdown. I lost almost all of my memory, but have most of it back now. I can remember cases by issues involved, no faces really, all outcomes, but no names. Occasionally I ask what appears to be a stupid legal question, because I still have some holes.

Yes of course there are some evil motherfuckers out there. There are also some otherwise decent people who are just wired wrong.

If you ever have the misfortune of having a child who is a victim, especially of a fondling case, please tread carefully. Most of these children, I think, are somewhat aware that something wasn’t quite right about what happened, but parents and social workers, well-meaning good people, can make it worse. Go easy – don’t let your child see it as the end of the world – retain some love for the one who was acting as God made him. He hates himself enough already.

I’m not gonna hang around.

I just searched Christy’s post and the comments for the word “accused.” No hits.

Since at FDL, we’re ALL about the Constitution, it wouldn’t detract from the validity or power of anything written here to make a point of inserting that word.

Christy-

Thank you for this post. This latest revelation simply adds another dimension of horror to the Bush administration.

I started off my day reading first, Taylor’s post, and then yours. My God, I’m just stunned.

Now let’s see if the wurlitzer cranks up to defend this guy, saying he was entrapped. The same people who attacked “Taliban Jill” and the “ho” at Duke won’t actually defend Doyle, will they? Will they?

And that picture of him, I get all icky inside looking at it.

I wish our society loved its children more. We talk a good game but we don’t walk it very well. There is an underlying hostility to them that I can’t figure out. From education to health care to daily life, kids are considered a nuisance and a bother, liars and attention seekers. When I tried to get adult attention about my abuse, I was ignored or, worse, punished for lying and called crazy. I thought maybe they were right. I often wonder how many kids right now are going through the same thing and what I would tell them if we could speak.

That’s another issue, I think, with civil commitment of sexual predators after they’ve served their sentence–they’re committed until they are “cured” “recovered” but if a cure isn’t possible. I observed an “expert” testify at a trial re: continuing civil commitment of a sexual predator and the one thing I came away with–he talked like an expert and carried himself like an expert but this purported science was not scientific, not reliable. There was this whole scaffolding of expertise for this commitment, but it was–all of it–shaky. I think this is a painfully difficult issue–one not helped by unscientific science….

mommybrain, you said what I was trying to say.

Thanks, Lou — this kind of case pisses me off, could you tell? But you are abolutely right that at this point it’s alleged and I ought to have been accurate in my first pass on it.

I have to head out. There are good points flating round this thread from multiple perspectives. I’ve worked all sides of this issue from the treatment and treatment evaluation perspective, including the evaluation of programs designed to treat court mandated offenders. I’ve worked with more victims than offenders, and my moral goal is to prevent abuse and victimization.

Best to all! By the time I’m back later, this thread will have dried out, I expect.

Take care, all.

While getting my Masters in Criminal Justice, I focused on sex crimes, pedophiles, serial rapists, and serial killers. It was difficult to say the least, but I wanted to focus on those that cause the most harm to society. I never did get a career in law enforcement, mostly because when I was young and interested, law enforcement agencies were not, and when they did become interested (FBI), my wife already had a good career going, and I was already earning more than a beginning FBI agent makes.

But I think the thing to emphasize even more than the fact that the perpetrator could be anyone, that there tends to be signs that there is something ‘not quite right’ about those who later get discovered to be sexual predators.

And, as has already been stated, but MUST be emphasized, they can be controlled, but are NEVER cured.

jayt – I can always count on something insightful from you. Are you leaving us due to this post?

goddamit Suzanne, so sorry your child is suffering, hope she continues to get the help she needs and you as a family keep finding strength to deal with this

I’m sure I sound naive to the law enforecement types, but often I think if only, if only most folks knew how widespread this problem is and it’s probably more wideespread than the stats reflect b/c I think a lot of male survivors will never find a way to talk about it.

I am a survivor of molestation and child rape and there’s what, 3 others of the 20 talking on this board right now ? what’s that tell ya ?

and cupholder #8 – am right with ya on that and it’s probably more the mom than the survivor talking there

Resource: http://www.rainn.org/ This is: Rape Abuse and Incest National Network. They have a list of places to contact by state.

“Careful, you call the guy “Pedophileâ€, identifying him with a photo.

Just remember Richard Jewell…flashback”

The gravity of such crimes scream out for justice. The danger is that sex crimes inflame so many passions that they often render any discussion useless.

There is also a great danger, knowing the MO of this administration, that such crimes can be used as a pretext for more federal intrusion. The old saw, “if you have nothing to hide” can be inserted here.

Perhaps if one were to replace the fear of terrorists with the fear of internet pedophiles the same tactics can be used to combat both. Sneak and peek, search and seizure, unlimited detention, guilt by association, waterboarding, rendition, fear, accusations, fear,complicity, fear, aiding and abetting, fear.

It is my distinct fear that all of the tactics used by the current regime will be turned inward one of these days. What better pretext. Who will come to the defense of anyone accused of a horrible sex crime?

So the dilemma presents itself. There is indeed a huge criminal problem……but will it be dealt with in an even more criminal way?

-GSD

The following are a few sites to take a look at if the issues of sexual violence, harassment and abuse are meaningful to you.
RAINN, the Rape Incest and Abuse National Network
CDC Report on Sexual Violence
National Center on Domestic and Sexual Violence, funded in part by big tobacco but they are doing very good work anyway, including in the military.
Good FAQ on sexual assault including national hotline number 1-800-656-HOPE.
Finally, if you have friends or family who are dealing with these issues, get them help and get back-up for yourself as needed.

Good FAQ on sexual assault including national hotline number 1-800-656-HOPE.

Finally, if you have friends or family who are dealing with these issues, get them help and get back-up for yourself as needed.

It’s so important for readers to understand where real threats to children come from. Thanks for your cautions and attention to this issue. I think society has a lot of confusion about pedophilia in general–conflating crimes against boys with homosexuality is just one of them. This lets the catholic church hide its culpability for turning a blind eye while thousands of children were assaulted by priests by simply attacking gays or gay adoption and appear to be taking a strong stand. The truth is that most molests are heterosexual, girls more likely to be victims than boys. And most kids aren’t molested by what has been called “fixated” offenders, or the long track record pedophiles you’re talking about here. More common and with a shorter lifelist are “regressed” offenders who usually have had relationships with adult women as well. Having treated child victims of both kinds of perpetrators, I can see some differences in the crime. The fixated perp is more likely to start out as a “fun/intriguing” friend, and more likely to feel to the child like something they’re keeping secret from their parents in order to achieve some gain (pokemon cards,drugs, booze, or as in this case a sexy older adult interest), and more likely to get caught once that secrecy is broken. When the child is ready to disclose this kind of molest, the world responds fast, with police, interviews and arrests. As americans we tend to fear the fixated perp alot, and warn our children about them. However, the regressed offender tends to be much more secretive and have a much more insidious effect on the child. They are usually IN the family or close to it, and confuse the child’s sense of belonging by introducing sex and shame to the home. The child can’t tell the parent because they feel the parent is responsible, or inherently culpable for allowing it to happen. And when they occasionally do tell someone *outside* the family system, like a teacher, therapist or coach, the authorities rarely finds anything that winds up worth prosecuting.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no love for fixated pedophiles, but we can *catch* them, we can prosecute them, and we put a fence around them. It is much harder to build a case against a father who molested his daughter before she could talk, than it is to get a guy whose been attracting 13 year old boys to his house for months.

I still think the best way for a parent to protect their children is not to harm them, and not to date or marry someone who will harm them. If both these things happen, statistics tell us the child is very likely to stay safe.

What is the sexual offender recidivism rate? Do child molesters reoffend more often than rapists? Do incest offenders have the highest recidivism rate of all sexual offenders? Do all child molesters eventually reoffend? Can you reliably predict who is likely to reoffend?

These issues are more than just academic. If social policy and legislation in these matters is to be effective, then surely such facts must be considered.

-x-

I was all over this last night:

http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ment-55714

I say One Strike and You’re Out. Life. Spare me all the psychobabble about getting at root causes. Zero tolerance. Release a shitload of non-violent drug offenders to make room. Pretty simple.

I think that it is human nature to want to believe that we can help anyone, can change anyone. I’ve spent most of my life thinking about this issue. I was only six years old when the molestation began and wasn’t able to understand or escape until I was about nine. The perp was my grade school principal, president of the school board and the organist at his church. He was considered to be an absolute pillar of the community and had received awards for his work with children. He was also extremely empathetic with children. In fact it was that very empathy that allowed him to manipulate us. I think that he truly believed that he loved children and that his actions were a natural expression of that love.

I don’t know what the “switch” is either, but I am so thankful that despite my experience, I’ve have never had any sexual attraction toward children. Perhaps because of that, I believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Read any of the claims made by fundies who say that they can “cure” homosexuality. Graduates of those programs, if they are honest, admit to feeling sexual attraction for members of the same sex although they may have some control over acting on those impulses. I believe that it is the same for pedophiles. They may have some control over their impulses, but for how long? I see from the comments here that some of you believe that therapy works and that pedophiles can be cured. I just don’t believe it.

Childhood sexual abuse is not something that you ever truly get over. I had the great good fortune to get into therapy with a man who literally wrote the book on the sexual abuse of males and have been able to regain a degree of intimacy that I thought was lost to me forever. Despite that, it took forty years before I was ready to deal with my experience and my hatred of my molester is as red hot as when I was a child. Although I think that any attempt to understand and treat offenders is a noble cause, I for one would not put my child in the position of testing any of those theories. I’ll save my compassion and my concern for the kids who will forever live with the memories of the monsters.

From the flip side — in my years as a small-town public defender, I represented the “baby rapers.” Christy’s right — most were victims. In fact, I can’t recall right now that I ever represented one who wasn’t molested, usually horribly, as a child.

I found that I had to reach that place in myself where I had compassion for the perp in order to defend. And believe me, there was often much to defend — not uncommon for additional false allegations to be added to the true crimes, by other family members jealous of the attention received by siblings and cousins. Or — this happened twice — the victim’s mother convinced the child to accuse “Uncle Johnny” or “Cousin Billy” (both of whom had abused others) instead of stepdad. Yeah. Protect that marriage, honey. Gag me.

I never was able to resolve what SHOULD be done with these people. Christy’s right — they won’t get better. But there’s a place in me that has such deep sorrow for the very damaged little child inside the monster, even when I was revolted by the adult.

Christy,#48

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why it is absolutely necessary for the police to document every exchange. I remember the “Abscam” scandal where several Congressmen were charged, and the defense was entrapment. I forget most of the details of the case though.

Serious question here.. when you say that pedophiles can’t be cured, is there any relation to the age of the target?
My understanding of this issue is that there is no hope for those who
are attracted to pre-pubescent children. Is that true for those who pursue tennegers as well?

I believe this to be the worst crime of all. Awhile back when the whole holier than thou pharmacy issue of not providing the morning after pill because of their faith really pissed me off. I’m a real estate lender and I had to help a scumbag who had been convicted of this type of crime and had been forced to move to a different community. How come I couldn’t refuse to help him? Why didn’t my horror of this scumbag allow me to refuse under the same grounds? Because I wanted to keep my job!!!

The loan had to been done in his wife’s name only so he could avoid paying on the judgment against him in the tune of a quarter million dollars. As those assholes were whining about a stupid pill, I had to deal with a convicted pedophile! Thank you for letting me rant.

jayt– do come back– I am sorry for your pain.
Also for the horrors experienced by others who have posted– I am sorry for you. So, so sad.

jayt–please return. I value your thoughts and words and feelings. But whether or not you come back here –may the force (the big whatever) be with you.

jayt # 57

was is emerging to me from this thread is this is a subject requiring a hell of a lot more dialogue on the part of society – including what you have to say – don’t you dare leave us.

jayt, I agree. Please come back. This is an incredibly difficult issue. There was an excellent discussion of this issue on the NPR program “Justice Talking” (I think it was that program). Actually, recidivists are not as common as is claimed, according to one of the speakers on that program. Because I haven’t worked on this problem and haven’t been affected by it, perhaps my compassion for the perpetrators and their problems is misplaced, but I have to believe that it’s an ugly, ugly problem, but you can’t dismiss people as being totally worthless. I’ll see if I can find a link to the program I mentioned.

As a mother of 3, this is all very frightening.

Heard on the radio recently that the newest trend is abuse of kids under the age of 5. Talk about nauseating.

This is the one and only instance where I side with the Bush Admin., and think they should be allowed to snoop into internet accounts of those involved in child porn. These criminals need to be stopped.

why should you leave jayt?

these are all amazing comments.

what saddened me, when my kids were little, is that before we got to the birds and the bees and physical expression of love, we did the good touch, bad touch thing…

http://www.justicetalking.org/…..progID=542

I believe this is a link to information about the program I heard, including an MP3 link.

jayt – You are valued here. Stay.

This child porn/predator issue is a tough one. I agree with jayt that most of them are hard wired. To that extent they are what most of us call uncurabley sick. There are some witch hunts and over reaction by well meaning people as well. The net is cast wide. I’m just happy not to be a parent of a young child in these times. I’m not smart enough to have any answers. I would be scared to be a parent.

Christy, thank you for helping to clarify the entrapment issue.

btw, there’s a post over at Pam’s House Blend about men flying in to Atlanta (yeah, not Saigon, Bangok, or Mexico City) to have sex with children. I shake at recalling the article, but again, we all need to know this stuff.

When you say 1 in 4 kids will be sexually molested, what do you mean by “sexually molested”? Does getting flashed count? Or do you mean actual, physical, sexual contact? If 1 in 4 are actually physically molested that is a very scarry statistic. Personally, I was flashed by some guy when I was about 7. He asked me to kiss his dick and I said no thanks and walked away. When I told them, it was way more traumatic for my parents and the cops than for me. I just thought it was wierd for someone to do that.

Our state prisons have an intense victim impact program–but after a while found a need for victim support groups for prisoners as well as victim impact groups for them as perps…

Let’s all remember (as I was reminded recently while reading “Reading Lolita in Tehran” that in many parts of the world, including the United States for most of our history, women have been able (required? forced?) to marry as early as Age 12. And it was very common in my grandparents’ generation for mid-teenage women to marry substantially older men. I’m glad this is no longer true, but I’m hesitant to call such attractions “deviant”.

I was a victim of a pedophile when I was only seven. I can’t describe how this stuff makes me feel reading it as an adult. It hurts so damn much to have this tremendous fear of people and to get UTI’s and other local pain even the rape happened when I was younger. He tore me. It hurt. Sometimes, even though it’s all over and done with, I feel my insides ripping. I hate this man. I hate the fact that people like that are out there. Sometimes I’m afraid of the rage I feel inside against these people. Is chopping of their nuts and their fingers too violent of a response? I’ve never done that but you can bet that the thought is there that they deserve it. It would prevent them from doing onto others again!

This is why all that Republican “keep you safe” shit sucks. Because when all is said or done, we have a bigger chance of being raped than we do of meeting an al queda bomb.

I am no Bush administration apologist by any means, nor a conspiracy theorist, however, has anyone considered that this could possibly be a set-up. As you mentioned yourself, pedophiles usually have a long history of such behavior, so I wonder if he does as well. The facts seem too neatly put together. From what I’ve read, these types of perverts go to great measures to ensure secrecy, and the internet ones seem to prefer anonimity. It doesnt seem realistic that a guy who intimately knows the information gathering powers of the US Government would excerise his perversions so sloppily. If he is that stupid, then there should be other mishaps. I would like some research done to see if this guy was potentially going to blow the whistle on something.

I should have said I’m glad that it’s no longer true in this country that many women get married at 12. But in Iran, and many places in the world, it is still true. Horrific, perhaps to us (and maybe to them) but certainly institutionalized in culture.

But I think the thing to emphasize even more than the fact that the perpetrator could be anyone, that there tends to be signs that there is something ‘not quite right’ about those who later get discovered to be sexual predators.

Dave: Very true. I read an article written (I think) by Cliff Van Zandt, and one of the points he made was that parents and kids should learn not to ignore those gut feelings. If you feel even the least bit uncomfortable about someone, don’t ignore it.

Your brain is trying to tell you something that it senses about that person.

Thank you Christie for an astute framing of this hideous issue.

I believe there may be a THIRD DHS person as well – I believe he was caught on the 2nd or 3rd Dateline NBC expose on this subject.

Does anyone remember?

I’m going to invite flames with this comment, most likely.
I think there is a huge and obvious difference between adults having sex with pre-pubescent children and post-pubescent teenagers.
In many countries the age of consent is around 15.
Assuming the charges are true, this guy is a perverted creep, and should be punished, but in my value system, the crime would be 100 times worse if he did something with an 8 year old girl. There are people in their early 20s who go to jail for many years for having consensual sex with a teenage girl. I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’s appropriate punishment.

marky – Yes, there are shades of the issue that get lost by the HAMMER of Justice.

I have several friends who were victims of molestation at a young age. The woman I was closest to was molested by a friend’s father, when she would attend sleepovers at her friend’s house. The father also molested his own two daughters.

What’s important to note about the situation:

1. My friend never told anyone until her friend’s mother (finally) figured it out. The father was eventually prosecuted, convicted, and incarcerated.
2. My friend went to the house for subsequent sleepovers after the initial incident
3. My friend never went to the police to add her case to the case against her friend’s father
(the family had “suffered enough” in her opinion). In fact, my friend didn’t tell anyone until years after the man had been convicted.
4. My friend has still never told her father about what happened to her (her mother knows — her parents are divorced)

When you look at this from the “mile high” view, the “rational” person asks — why didn’t she tell? She wasn’t in that (severely dysfunctional) family, she had supportive family, she could, at the very least, have refused to go to subsequent sleepovers. And yes, these were both white, middle-class families in a (very) upscale town. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that more than 75% of the readers of this blog would recognize the town name.

What people who haven’t been molested don’t — or can’t — realize is how very deeply it screws a kid up to have an authority figure do this to them. And how hard it is to reconcile the friend’s dad who barbecues your hamburgers and rents you videos is to with the monster who slips into your bed at night and makes you ashamed and scared.

I hope that all of Doyle’s victims are identified and get the help they need.

I also wonder about entrapment. Wasn’t it Ritter who had allegedly gone after a teenage girl as well?

good point sola mia #90– due in large part to a much shorter lifespan and high infant and maternal mortality rates. The onset of menstruation did indeed mean that the young lady was a woman and ready to bear children and continue the cycle of life and survival of the species.

anybody want to take on the highly sexualized culture we’re providing for our kids? I can’t imagine being the parent of a little one these days…

I disagree with Balloon Juice. Low level background checks, like the kind I have access to will not show anything but convictions. But thorough background checks, the kind this Administration routinely does not give enough of a rat’s ass to do, those turn up all sorts of juicy tidbits.

While president of a homeowner’s association, an FBI official gave me a visit to check on one of my neighbors. She was getting higher security clearance but she was just a worker bee. That FBI agent was very thorough.

Also, when I was getting admitted to practice law in NJ, I was queried about when I was arrested for shooting off fireworks when I was 13 or 14. That was 15 years prior, and I was a minor and I was not convicted of anything. I don’t even know if I was charged with anything. They just let me go on my own from the police station, sans fireworks of course.

If they turned up that about me when I was 14 and sexual predators are believed to have tormented dozens or hundreds before they are caught, then there is a trail. It is just that this administration doesn’t want to find it if you have an “R” on your election registration.

Oh, BTW, I was shooting off fireworks on the Fourth of July.

mommybrain says:
April 5th, 2006 at 7:56 am

I wish our society loved its children more. We talk a good game but we don’t walk it very well.

Mommybrain, YES! YES! YES!!

I am so glad to hear someone else say this. There are these factions of society who go one and on about Protecting the Childrenâ„¢, but then they cut social programs, cut education, and feed the very forces (advertisers, the food companies, the pharmaceutical industry) that prey on children. It’s sickening.

renska – Yes, it happens too often by family members. Happened to me. Never told anyone. It’s a BIG problem. As I say, have no answers.

We’ve talked a lot about the abusers (Can they be stopped? Cured?) and the abused vicitms (the need to support and heal them), but let me add one more item – how do we deal with the others involved? I’m talking about the spouse who never knew (or didn’t want to believe) what the abuser was doing, brothers and sisters of the abused, the abuser’s co-workers, the neighbors, the friends at church, etc.

As a pastor who has worked to clean up the mess after an earlier pastor was arrested, tried, and convicted of the abuse of a developmentally disabled minor and member of the parish, I’ve seen what abuse does to the rest of the community. Every single person involved rethinks every interaction they ever had with the abuser – Did I miss something? Could I have stopped it? How could I have placed my trust in that person? The cycle of guilt goes round and round . . .
I share the political perspective of most on this site when it comes to the Bush administration. That said, I hope that this guy’s family, his co-workers, and his neighbors have support systems to help *them* deal with this. Child abuse is a nasty social disease, and it can poison a lot more than the lives of the adult abuser and the child victim.

Thanks, Christy!

My wife and I have a mutual friend from before we married. His family attended my wife’s church and were very active members. He was a friend in the sense that I wouldn’t call him directly, but our circle of friends overlapped. He’s a good guy. My wife’s family knows his family very well – over 20 years through their church. Watched the kids grow up and everything.

So our one day, the news breaks that the brother of our mutual friend is caught, he’s a child molester. He was a youth pastor for a church in another state. Many victims. He’s locked up indefinately now.

To casual observers, my friends brother was a model citizen. I can’t begin to fathom what the victims and their families have gone through.

Christy – this comment really struck home.
“Not exactly a big, flashing sign that says pedophile around this guy’s neck, is there?”

No one knew.

I also had an interesting neighborhood in Florida. We had an INS agent, IRS criminal investigator, and then a married couple that were parole officers. The husband parole officer would monitor parollees. The wife assisted judges in sentencing. They taught had the “bathing suit” talk with their daughter very, very young because of their exposure to pedophiles. Christy – our friends that worked in parole, they talked about pedophiles like you did. Incurable, horrible, devastating, indescribable.

balloon juice comment above about background checks. I agree that it is unlikely a background check would have caught him. Friends and neighbors surely didn’t know he was a pedophile. But it is also true that there could be clues that a background check could have caught, especially if the investigator came to the house for the interview with the investigatee. Regardless, I would expect we are conducting background investigations of homeland security employees and contractors because they work for homeland security.

My youngest, 13 year old boy lives with me. We just recently moved to CT. He was spending alot of time IM’ing his friends. Hiding the screen when I walked into my room where the computer is located. One night, after surfing the web I realized I could purchase “spy-ware” and download it on my computer. It runs in stealth mode and I can bring it to the surface with just a few keystrokes. From this I get everything written on this computer. This suddenly became invaluable to me. I now know exactly who he’s talking to and what is being said. It was a reasonable price for invaluable information. I recommend this for any parent who wants to know what their child is doing on the computer.

Mom of 3 in CT – That is a wise move for all parents with computer literate kids. You got to protect em somehow.

marky and c_r_c, no flames here, but all that talk about socially acceptable or age of consent means something completely different to the parents of a 15 year old girl.

my youngest son is the same age of Deborah LaFave’s victim – I wouldn’t dare commit my response to her shit on a public board like this one.

This is the first time reading a thread at FDL where I am angry.

This isn’t about sex people–its about power. The sex thing is shaming, but its the intimidation, the threats, the fear that are the predator’s tools that are most damaging. Thats why people who were abused repeat the cycle. When you have experienced the powerless of abuse, you will want to feel powerful again in the only way you know how.

And the toughest thing about being a survivor is the shame– children know its wrong, but don’t say anything. As a social worker, that is the scariest thing, childrens’ lack of voice.

And those sting operations and publicity are a great thing–even if they don’t lead to conviction. The problem with the internet is the illusion of anonimity. We try to tell our kids that the person on the other end may not be what they say–those fucking predators better understand that they same could be true on their end.

Want to protect children? Then don’t allow any advertising to be directed at children under a certain age. I think it’s outrageous that children are not protected from the most advanced propaganda/brainwashing techniques on the planet.

I’m so glad to see this discussed here today and I, too, appreciate jayt’s input, so I hope jayt doesn’t leave for good. I have only a minute, but it does concern me that he/she had to leave. Is is because of the subject, or because he/she flet his position would be attacked? I would like to know, if an answer is available. I think it is important information for us.

On the thread before this one, I linked to Democracy for Memphis, where they have kept a list of GOP politicos who have been arrested for these kinds of crimes. They call it Republican Neverland Ranch and I found it through our friend Matt O’s site. My best friend has made the point about this that if this were a Central American country, there are areas where there would be no crime, that there are marriages between these age groups, although under what conditions she doesn’t know. I can see the many sides of the issue, but I think the Internet has changed the level of availability and vulnerability that exists for the accused and the kids, respectively. I can’t summon up quite the empathy jayt has for those seem to prefer children, mainly because of the damage it is known to cause, but unfortunately it is part of our human condition. To suggest that they should all be rounded up and shot is not so different from some of the more horrifying comments made about homosexuals by the worst of the Christian Right. It is hard for me to appreciate how a person can be aware of that and continue to act. I doubt that regular prison life is the appropriate answer and I don’t claim to know what would be.

I think, for me, my disgust with the issue has to do with the damage to our children by those who do know better and do nothing to stop or limit themselves, ruining lives in the process. I am so full of admiration for those who survive and for the parents who love them. I have both in my “family” circle (love makes a family) and I am indebted to the brave firedogs who have spoken up here today.

Namaste

zen

marky 113–I second, triple that emotion

Is this guy a political appointee? In which case vetting might be mininimal. The thought occurs to me that when you operate at the level of immorality that this admin. does, you might have to accept a few personality “quirks” in the people who will work for you.

One Strike. Life.

You got these urges? Get help. Act on them, though, and you go away permanently.

cbl – I know. In your opinion is it more frightening to be a parent of a boy or girl nowadays? What is the solution? Ideas?

I think it’s outrageous that children are not protected from the most advanced propaganda/brainwashing techniques on the planet.

Me too, marky, absolutely. Alas, as a species we seem to love money more than our own children.

Sharkbabe- VERY IMPORTANT

I made a terrible mistake last night in a comment and I hope you will forgive me; I thanked Valley Girl for the very sweet comment you made to me. I feel terrible about this, I was really feeling lousy yesterday and was half asleep. Please confirm for me that you have seen this and please, please, please, know that I am so grateful for your kind comment. I am so sorry.
Ashamedly,
zen

cbl,
I understand your sentiment, but do you agree with my value differentiation?

jayt–
Thank you for your insight about why some people hurt others. I hope you will continue to share your perspective so that we can learn more. There is likely some combination of poor decision-making and mental illness including lack of impulse control. So even though I know 2 survivors, I still think we should know more about the psychology of it. Please do post again.

Only a few weeks ago, Patrick Fitzgerald announced in Chicago the indictment of an international child porn ring. Not clear whether he is actually running the case himself, but he sounds like a pretty busy guy.

March 15 (Bloomberg) — Twenty-seven people around the world were charged by U.S. prosecutors with running an Internet chat room used to trade child pornography pictures and videos.

Federal grand juries in nine districts returned indictments against 13 defendants in the U.S., and 14 have been charged in Canada, Australia and the U.K., the Justice Department said in a statement today.

The defendants have used the “Kiddypics & Kiddyvids” chat room to solicit and trade child pornography, including streaming videos of live molestations, since April 2005, according to an indictment.

“Today’s charges involve the most disturbing of allegations,” U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald in Chicago said in a statement. “The victimization of children in the depraved manner described can never be tolerated.”

Agents with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s Immigration and Customs Enforcement unit infiltrated the chat room in February, the government said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..fer=canada

It goes without saying that parents should be very careful about monitoring their children’s Internet browsing tastes and habits.

Thanks for the post, Christy.

The Internet – great as it is – seems to have caused an explosion in this sort of activity (along with accessibility to all sorts of other unsavory materials).

A police department near where I live has an agressive Internet crimes division and busts people all the time for this sort of behavior.

Perpetrators drive here from other states for what they think will be a rendezvous with a victim, only to get snagged by the cops. I don’t have the numbers at my fingertips, but I think the number of incidents and arrests actually have increased, despite a proliferation of these programs and publicity surrounding the arrests.

Sex abuse is insidious. It scars the victims – including those who get help – for life. To a lesser degree, it hurts the people who love the victim, too.

Unfortunately, this sort of behavior is rampant and – to tie this into politics – damages our country a hell of a lot more than so-called ‘cultural’ issues such as gay marriage or the (alleged) War on Christmas.

I wonder what Fitzgerald thinks about Libby’s novel–Lynne Cheney’s kinky sex fiction?

BobbyG – Seems like an overreaction to me. No proportionality (sp).

Powerful. The post AND the comment thread, all of it powerful. They call us a “fever swamp”, and yet we are the spectrum of American life here, prosecutors (Christy), defenders (jayt), molested-raped-abused (you know who you are), possibly even the troubled here lurking. We merely ask those holding a majority to be more compassionate AND effective in their leadership, rather than hypocritical or disengaged. It seems like it shouldn’t be such a difficult thing to ask…

Well, I would say that many in America are still quite Victorian in their views about sex. Prohibition of realistic, healthy, honest discussion and attitudes toward human sexuality contribute to the problems. Case in point– the Catholic church prohibits and makes a mortal sin much of sexuality– including having lewd thoughts. The problem of sexual exploitation and predation is rampant within the confines of the Church and I daresay, still being covered up. I am not bashing the Church– just saying that when all is considered, extreme fears of human sexuality don’t help people develop normally.

Bobby G, so a drunk 21 year old who has sex with a 14 year old girl should go to jail for life?

Btw, i am really annoyed with the slowness of the new chat—i’m typing my comments half-blind—othewise, i like it.

I APOLOGIZE

Thanks to Moxiegrrrl.com I stand corrected. I must apologize to everyone for my poor reading skills. Like many readers of this thread and the one on Moxiegrrrl, I too was molested as a child and that clouded my understanding regarding the case in Arizona concerning the State Senator’s son.

To Quote:
Police reports say the assaults took place at Chapel Rock Camp in Prescott during a weeklong camp for school leaders in June. Witnesses told police that the junior counselors lined up the youngsters, told them to bend over and “broomsticked” them. The boys told police “broomsticking” was done alternately with a broom, a cane, a mop handle and a heavy-duty flashlight while they were clothed.

Obviously the son is not a mature Republican; he’s just wanna-be.

I’m with Dadumdee, only because I seem to be such a contrarian :) I had some other stuff here about innocent before proven guilty, but then I think GSD said it better in #69.

Is this guy a Chertoff hire/appointment ? Chertoff would have needed to personally approve it, correct? WP story says Doyle came from TSA.

For bureaucratic perspective: This guy was in the equivalent position at DHS as Scottie Mac was at WH prior to Ari’s resignation, right? Isn’t DHS now the second largest federal agency?

God help us.

New thread!

california_reality_check -

Maybe, but we supposedly use the punishment power of the law to reflect what society values, what it will and will not tolerate (but, of course, our priorities see to be pretty crazy a lot). I enjoy the affairs of the flesh much as the next man, but I have NEVER even thought about raping a woman or sexually abusing a child. Freedom demands self-control.

So, yeah, on this issue I’m pretty “hardcore.”

I appreciate the fact that you have prosecuted such cases. In fact I am very glad of it because I have a serious question I would like to ask you:

Consider – these are very politically charged times. If you had the authority of law enforcement on your side and wanted to just destroy somebody, I am tempted to think that setting them up and seizing their computer such that your law enforcement officers alone have access to that computer, would be a very efffective means to do it.

I do not mean to be irrational, but I have a liberal pang going off in my head that does not want to believe that a) such crimes happen, and b) we all collectively believe you are innocent until proven guilty.

Is the guy a creep – I don’t know. But if we are all going to declare him this kind of creep, which as you pointed out really is incureable, let’s be damn sure about it.

Which much respect, Oh Goddess of the Blogoshere.

Many things occur to me from about this post. On the one hand, I do think that this administration, from the top down, has had an amazing predisposition to attract and select some of the most awful people on the planet and put them in positions of responsibility. That is quite possibly because the head man is not only not a regular guy, but a sociopath, one of the most awful people on the planet. The fish rots from the head, as Mr. Dukakis used to say.

I don’t think it’s making too much of it, or over-psychoanalyzing, to suggest some link between the infantilizing modes of the quintessentially patriachal “conservative” power structure. These guys think the world should take its marching orders from father-figures (or God-the-Father-figures)and they get violently upset whenever anybody suugests that there should be any limits to their power over their wards, their “children”; so it should come as no surprise that some of these people will chose to exercise that power, a la Jim Jones, in a little droit du seigneur with the children. It is the ultimate ethical extension of the royalist world view.

All of this said, I think that discussions of pedophilia tend toward the hysterical, even among the otherwise reasonable people, very, very quickly. This is an eaxample:

I attended a prosecutor’s seminar on sexual predators when I was working, and was told that the average pedophile has hundreds (yes, hundreds) of victims over a lifetime.

This claim about the “average” pedophile strikes me as very dubious indeed. I would really want to know what these numbers are based on. It reminds me of an “expert’s” claim that ‘the average drunk driver drives drunk between a hundred and a thousand times before being caught.’ An average of between X and 10X?
Hmmm. Remember, that experts in these enforcement efforts, like “drug experts” have every egotistical and professional incentive to inflate their claims, and none to soft-pedal them.

And just by the way, anybody who takes claims made at prosecutor’s seminars as gospel should be sentenced to a careful re-reading of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

BobbyG – I understand you, Sir.

cbl: I think the spyware can be a good thing for parents. My kids (19, 16, 13) have learned that there are limitations to privacy in my house. *grin* I will go into their bedrooms, I will stand and stare at the monitor, I will ask them who they’re talking to, etc.

I’m always surprised by the number of parents in my hometown who literally have no clue what their kid is doing in his/her bedroom.

mom of 3 in CT (109)– what will you do if you find him doing something you don’t approve of? Will you confront him, and then let him know you’ve been spying on him? I’m curious here, not trying to be belligerent; what will this information get you? If you confront him, will he trust you again? I know that as a teenaged boy I very vehemently wanted to get my parents out of my life as quickly as possible (as I think most teenaged boys want to do), so having my mother make the revelation that she’s been spying on me the whole time would have driven a serious wedge between her and me that might be hard to mend, if ever. If just the knowledge gives you comfort because you hate being in the dark, when will you let go? What’s the threshold age/mentality where he’s his own person and no longer yours to protect?

The right-wing blogs are scurrying around to find excuses for Boyle. Check out Polipundit, for instance. The comments to the blog are full of vicious innuendos about how morally depraved the Democrats and liberals are.

Needless to sayn that it is also “strawman” day on the righwing blogs… Speculation abounds…

kristinejoy 113 – I just want to say thank you for your comments.

Mom of 3 # 109

good on ya. we use it as well. But again, a lot of parents are poorly informed – can’t tell ya how many times I’ve embarassed my kids at the video store by pointing out the Mature rating on a game to the parent of an 11 year old – yeah, I know, 21st century prudery, civli liberties, etc.. The ultimate was chewing out Dave Mirra, yup, that Dave Mirra for attaching his name to a game wherein young women take their tops off as a reward for reaching the higher levels – laughed my ass off later when I saw he and his squeeze were the proud parents of a baby girl

THe methods of law enforcement can make this even more difficult as well.

Years ago, close friends had their house broken into (while they were home) and their six year old daughter was abducted. Within an hour of discovering and reporting this, about 2/3 of the police officers employed in the area began a massive manhunt to find the girl. It was truly impressive, and my hat is off to each and every one of them. They found the girl (and her kidnapper) within a half hour.

Where I have a problem, though, is how the girl was treated after she was recovered. She had the whole rape kit thing done, etc. That process caused the child more distress and harm than the actual abduction did. It was like an institutional rape itself.

I have a daughter slightly younger than my friend’s, and it was after seeing my friend’s experience that I determined that should anything like that ever happen to my kid, it would be better for her if I left the cops out of it, and just hunt the asshole down myself. I’d rather go to prison for killing the guy than see my daughter treated like my friend’s was.

Years later, I expressed this to the parents, and they agreed with my sentiments more than completely.

It was also this incident that clued me in to the total worthlessness of the news media. This was, of course, front page news in our town. As a person “on the inside” of the story, I knew what really happened and was absolutely stunned when none of the news reports were even close to being accurate. I figure if they mess up a story like this, which has virtually no political sensitivity to it, how could I trust their other reporting, especially of the political variety? And this was from an award-winning newspaper.

Seepeesate—interesting story.

I find it hard to believe that all people with mental problems, even those such as pedophilia are beyond treatment and help.

I suspect that left untreated, behaviors like pedophilia will reinforce and worsen over time. It is therefore incumbent on our society to be alert to the early signs of dysfunctional behavior and situations.

I don’t think the lock em up and throw away the key, or execute them all will solve the underlying problem which will seemingly repeat on other offenders.

1. Morality in the USA regularly begins and ends with condemning the behavior of others – terrorists, pedophiles, immigrants. It’s a no-brainer and requires no courage to say that pedophilia is grossly wrong. Nancy Grace, O’Reilly, and the rest of the SCLM, which typically scoff at ‘do-gooders’ and ‘social engineers’, are relentless in covering pedophilia. What’s up with that? They’re trafficking luridly in what they purport to condemn, and diverting attention from other moral issues such as cruelty and greed.
2. The single best way to demonstrate concern for pedophilia is by providing substantial ongoing therapeutic and standard-of-living intervention for the victims. That means tax dollars. We should also address the sexualization of children and the infantilization of women that is the product of our commercialized society.
3. It’s my understanding that there is relatively little research into pedophilia, particularly because of the ascendancy of religious fundamentalism.
4. This incident demonstrates the necessity of checks, balances and oversight. Military, security and law enforcement personnel are just as capable of wrongdoing as anyone else.
5. All that said, I have immense respect for Christy and the law enforcement people who deal with this first hand.

seepeesate – It is so difficult an issue that most won’t even go there. I have no answers.

BobbyG said: One Strike. Life.

You got these urges? Get help. Act on them, though, and you go away permanently.

Sounds like a good system. So if someone is a pedophile that hasn’t yet come into contact with the criminal justice system, but wants to get help, what are his options? Is there somewhere he can get help without risking prison – because if there isn’t, he’s not going to get help.

wondering asks: anybody want to take on the highly sexualized culture we’re providing for our kids? I can’t imagine being the parent of a little one these days…

Remember JonBenet Ramsey? All sorts of fuss about who killed her; practically none about the world of prepubescent beauty contests where little girls are tarted up, as JonBenet was, to look like sex objects.

Or places like Club Libby Lu at Tyson’s Corner Mall, which does the same tarting-up of the same age group, as a kid party thing. Click the link and look at that first pic – and that’s a WaPo Style Section story from about a week and a half ago.

Bill Selznick says: Apparently when an adult Repbulican wants to FUCK A CHILD IN THE ASS WHITH A STICK… THAT’S NOT A SEXUAL ASSULT !!!!

The article you linked to didn’t say anything of the kind was happening. Not that there was anything innocent about what was happening, per your cite – kids getting poked in the ass with a broomstick through their clothes – but that’s not assfucking. Let’s stick with the facts.

Oh, and I wanted to say something about the internet to all you parents out there:

Think of the internet as being no different than a big city — because it really isn’t any different. Lots of great, wonderful things along with all the seedy flophouses and back alleys. Just as you would never allow your child to wander around a big city unattended, you should never allow your child to wander the internet unattended.

Don’t rely on spyware to do your work. It’s easy to bypass, and believe me, your kids are more likely to know how than you are. Instead, do not allow them internet access except when they’re under supervision. And actually look at their screens now and then (preferably, this is an opportunity to engage them in discussion in general, too).

c_r_c
Do you mean today, this post, is the first time you told anybody?

Excellent post. But news articles I’ve read, and this post, describe the extreme individual but then throw in statistics that claim that 25% of us are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Does a 16 year-old and his 15 year-old girl friend (or vise-versa) qualify? Is he or she a pedophile? My point is that this term is thrown about so often, and global sexual behaviour is comingled, such that people feel that every other person must be a deranged pedophile. It really gets in the way of a rational discussion of the issue.

marky #122,

I don’t really have a straight answer for you – I am admittedly inobjective on this subject.

mmr #114,

you have to start on Day 1 to build trust with your kids – they have to know by the time their 15 you are only looking out for their best interests – that said, even with daily effort, 2 of our 5 did their best to shut us out as you described – it was a pain in the neck, but we worked with that as best we could and thankfully they remained safe

egregious – yes.

Oh my God. You are so brave. I hope that other people reading what you wrote will be inspired by your courage. Please tell someone and look into http://www.rainn.org which is Rape Abuse and Incest National Network. Bless you.

House Republicans are pushing a resolution to praise the Capital police who arrested Rep. Cynthia McKinney– I wonder if they will be as quick to praise the cops who busted Doyle?

Let us all be careful here and not dilute a very serious problem ; this is not particular to DHS nor is it somehow particular to the Bush administration. There are any numbers of reasons one is a pedophile, but it does not happen because you work for a particular government agency or in a particular administration.

For those that would be interested in more background on this issue, I suggest renting the movie “The Woodsmanâ€, with Kevin Bacon (2005). Absolutely chilling. Intense and very elequent movie (though not perfect by any means), with an amazing performance by Bacon as a pedophile.

I wish I knew what to say about this.

My mother was molested by her oldest brother when she was a preteen. My grandfather put an end to it by throwing her brother out, but my mother still suffers the scars from the experience. Molestation clearly affects people differently. One of the results of my mother’s experience was that it made her fiercely protective of her own children. I couldn’t understand why she was that way until I was an adult and let in on a few of the family’s secrets.

Unfortunately, therapy hasn’t helped her much, and as she’s gotten older her idiosyncracies have gotten worse.

Our tendencies to want clearcut answers rather than nuance work against us in so many situations. There is something qualitatively different about a 19 year-old involved in a relationship with a 16 year-old versus a 40-something involved with a teenager, and even more difference from an adult involved with a prepubescent child. If I were the parent of the child, I wouldn’t like the first situation much and I’d really be unhappy about the second situation. For sure I’d be unhappy enough to confront the adult and tell them to stay away from my kid. Possibly unhappy enough to inform the authorities. In the third case I’d want the adult locked away for a very long time.

I’m having a tough time sorting out the political impact of this case, though. It seems like Republican corruption in all its forms is the gift that keeps on giving. Has anyone checked to see what sort of job this low-life holds? I really, really, really want it to be a patronage position so he can be another albatross around the Dear Leader’s neck …

BC

This hits home for me.
Along with dealing with my oldest child’s illness last week, my son came to me absolutely distraught because his girlfriend told him that her father was molesting her.

The father kept her on a very tight reign, supposedly protecting her from nasty adolescent boys and all the while (about 6 years) he’d been creeping into her room at night and touching her.

He threatened to kill her if she told and the poor girl did not know if her family would support her or reject her if it came out. Would they weigh her wellbeing as worth more than their dad in the home and his paycheck spent on them?

My son couldn’t eat the whole weekend and spent much of it on the phone talking the pros and cons over with her. He went with her to the police on Monday. They were very kind to her from what I could tell. She stayed at our home on Monday night. Her father was arrested that night too.

Here’s the thing that disturbs me the most. She’s been brought up to be obedient and passive. When Victim’s Services called she merely answered yes or no to their questions and didn’t avail herself of their services.

And she’s 16, so she’s in a kind a of limbo. She’s a child so there are children’s services out there, but she’s too old to have have someone advocate actively for her. She’s on her own to get whatever help she can demand.

She went back home last night. Apparently her father was told to stay away from her, her family home and her school as a condition for his release.

I worry for her. I am afraid she’ll come out of this feeling guilty for hurting her family.

egregious – I’m fine. Really. Just a statistic now. Now further action will or should be taken. Everyone involved is dead. Thing is there are many more like me. I don’t have any answers. Thanks for your concern. Not to worry.

RT -

Sounds like a good system. So if someone is a pedophile that hasn’t yet come into contact with the criminal justice system, but wants to get help, what are his options? Is there somewhere he can get help without risking prison – because if there isn’t, he’s not going to get help.

We go to medical and mental health providers all the time for help with our problems, many of which we emphatically want held in private. Doctor-patient privilege should suffice for someone simply going for clinical help with such urges.

I’m glad that at this point there isn’t a child who has been harmed by this man. Although, the investigation is in very early stages, I’ll hope for the best that it was his first attempt at this sort of thing.
This man worked for DHS. Did he have access to any classified or sensitive information? What would he do if someone had some evidence of his behavior and threatened to expose him? I’m with Christy: where are the background checks and where are the on-going measures to ensure people working at DHS aren’t compromised.

bobbyg, you bring all the nuance of a Jesse Helms to the discussion.

sex. i have a theory karl has the goods on alot of people and uses the info to keep the loyaly. another angle to the rubber stamping. i’ve heard data is collected on the members of younge republicans at parties when people are drunk or whatever. compromising info, you may think this is far fetched but w/access to spying etc the possibilities are endless for keeping people in line. domestic spying takes on a whole new meaning. skull and bones makes initiates confess all past sexual exploits. what better way to guarentee loyalty than to push up the ranks people you’ve got the goods on. the rnc is a cesspool of weirdness, think jeff gannon, how did he worm his way into the WH?

Has anyone else notice how much this guy looks like Robin Williams?

Why does R. Kelly still have a successful career goin?

If Doyle is guilty, despicable. But I have a problem with Justin Berry as a poster child for internet exploitation of children. Go back to the original article by Eichenwald last december. Not only did Berry’s mom show lax parenting skills reminiscent of the parents of the Columbine murderers, but his dad was a crook who fled the country on insurance fraud related to his “massage clinics” (did Eichenwald euphemize “parlors” here?) and when Justin confessed to him, his dad opted to up the ante and share in the profits. It seems to me that this is a case where the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

This kid wanted to meet other kids online with a web cam? How about going to the school dance?

I won’t let my little kids have computers in their rooms when they get old enough and for sure they won’t have web cams. I want to crack down on manipulation of children over the internet and put perps like Doyle (assuming he is guilty as alleged) in the slammer.

But Justin Berry? I’m just saying that he is not a great example to bring forward.

thanks, marky. On this one I make no apology.

LEAVE THE CHILDREN ALONE. Problem solved.

I’ve worked on these sorts of case for a number of years as a prosecutor and defense attorney. Two points:

1) “Pedophilia” refers to a sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. Guys who try to have sex with 14 year-olds are different – and far more numerous.

2) I’m currently working as a prosecutor, but I basically lean libertarian, and I have a big problem with these internet cases, specifically grown police officers pretending to be teen-age girls. Basically, its the government making up a crime out of thin air.

The immediate objection, I guess, is that it’s a questionable use of law-enforcement resources to invent crimes out of whole cloth when we don’t have enough money to prosecute actual crimes with actual victims.

And it just doesn’t pass the smell test with me – grown men on the government payroll pretending to be teenage girls so they can talk dirty with other grown men – it “shocks the conscience”, to use an old legalism. Sure you get a “bad guy”, but there are other things to worry about besides locking up every single bad guy.

ineedalife #152 — I can’t speak for all jurisdictions, but here in WV, there has to be a 4 year difference in age for something to be chargeable as statutory rape. So if you have an 18 year old and a 16 year old, it’s not chargeable as a rape charge. Clearly, prosecutorial discretion comes into play in almost all of these cases — especially the close in age ones — but for my purposes, I’m really talking about adults who have a discernable age disparity and who have a history of preying on children or pre-teens or young teens.

The crime of soliciting a child over the Internet is an abomination. Our first reaction, as I’m seeing here, should be to protect the young.

Yet think about the implications for our national security. What if it hadn’t been a police task force that got to Doyle first? What if his sexual proclivities had come to the attention of some foreign agent, or terrorist cell, and they had blackmailed this guy? A frightened mole in the DHS would be very useful indeed.

This isn’t just a moral outrage, but demonstrates just how slip-shod this administration is when it comes to protecting the interests of this country and its citizens. It isn’t just this guy’s apparent moral depravity. His dirty little secret made him vulnerable and easily exploited.

JB2 -

So, the cops shouldn’t use “sting” operations to combat crime? Generally, or just on the ‘net? When is it a “sting” and when is it “entrapment”? (not claiming to know)

if you wish to understand more about the effects of pedophilia on children, Alice Miller is a swiss psychologist who has written extensively on the subject.

justsaying at #167 — so, what you are saying is, this kid’s parents were less than stellar, so he’s a poor example as a victim? Here’s a little secret: pedophiles frequently target kids whose parents are less than stellar. Because of the lack of supervision and the passive quality of parenting, it makes those kids an easier mark, because they frequently do not have the relationship with their parents that would allow them to be honest about being abused, nor do they have the guidance to tell them that bad touching is wrong from a young age. It’s attitudes like that — blaming the kid for his crap parents — that let juries rationalize letting a sexual predator off. This is clearly not the case with every child who is molested — because some I have dealt with came from exceptional, loving families. Also, fyi, promiscuous behavior is a frequent reaction by a child who has been molested and who hasn’t gotten counseling or dealt with the impact of the abuse.

Bobbyg, no apology either. You accept without question an artificial dividing line of 18 between childhood and adulthood. If the charges against this guy are valid, he is a creep and should be punished (goddamit, this is so fucking slow!!! It took 3 minutes for this much comment to be previewed… what is the problem?).
However, frankly, I think anyone that can’t see the moral difference between sex with a 15 year old and sex with an 8 year old is perverted.
Let’s do a little thought experiment. Tink of an older man who preys on girls that are 19 or 20. He’s very good at talking them into sex, and he’s emotionally abusive as well. He causes these girls a lot of harm. Is he a horrible person? obviously.. and yet we don’t send him to jail . Why? because a we undeerstand that people have responsibility for theri choices once they become sexually mature. Now, I am all for parents telling their kids to delay intercourse, and to stay awy from older men.

have to stop.. WAYYYY tooo SLOWWWWWW

Something happened to my son when he was very young and unable to reliably provide any information about it. I say “it” because it was never clear exactly what happened, how many times, and who did it, although the household in which it occurred was known. There was physical evidence of harm, but not conclusively sexual, and a clearly traumatized three-year-old child. There was never enough to charge or convict anyone, although there was enough to interest the domestic relations court in restricting access to him by persons in that household.

A case like Sharkbabe’s–(and to her, and to others who have posted their terrible experiences, I am so sorry)–is clear. But not all are, and the court system doesn’t do a good job with them in my experience. I aggressively used the services of a child psychologist who specialized in abused children, and she seemed to help him deal with his anger and fear, over a couple of years. I also acted in a way to communicate to him that I would do anything to protect him. At the nadir of court cluelessness I thought about changing my citizenship. In the end, he has turned into a wonderful young adult, thank God. But nearly 20 years later I still get a knot in my stomach thinking of that period in our lives. As the adults in children’s lives we have to be attuned to behavior that is suddenly different, create a safe space for children to talk to us, and go with the gut feeling that something is wrong.

A second observation: our town has fewer than 350 people and four convicted sex offenders. As of a few months ago, we also have a sex offender ordinance. When Iowa passed a law limiting proximity of sex offender dwellings to schools, etc., the effect was to displace them from larger towns with more schools and dump them in little communities like ours where the school closed more than a decade ago. In self-defense, we passed an ordinance against offenders dwelling close to places kids congregate, to stop the flow into this town, but it is happening all over this state and other states with laws like this. As the offenders are forced to move, some of them disappear. All offenders are scooped up into the net, including the kid who had sex with his girlfriend when their ages were 18 and 16, or the 18-year-old who showed her under age friend dirty pictures (true stories; one lives here). Parents in this town were hysterical, and while I don’t blame them, I think the focus on the predators who are strangers lurking at the school bus stop really misses the predators inside families and neighborhoods, and fails to distinguish among sex offenders who are our worst nightmare and ones who are unlikely to offend again. When the harm comes from a parent, an older child, or a trusted friend, the breach of trust is so devastating, along with what the harm that the conduct causes.

Mountain Mike 171 – some agencies have what’s called a lifestyle polygraph for just this reason.

JB2 — how long have you worked as a prosecutor? Because that sort of “sting” operation is pretty common in drug buys, mob prosecutions and just about every other avenue where you would have an undervcover officer — including your everyday prostitution sting. If you’ve worked in law enforcement for any amount of time, you know that there is supposed to be no initiation on the part of the officer — the conduct that is criminal is supposed to be initiated directly by the perp., as if they were initiating it with any person who was not an undercover cop. I don’t see the “libertarian” problem there, frankly. If there is entrapment, sure, there is a problem — but that gets your case thrown the hell out of court. No entrapment — I just don’t see how this is different from a wired drug buy or any other sting operation.

JB2…

Because you “lean Libertarian” I hope you are not saying that sexual activity between an adult male and a 14 or 15 year old is none of the govs business. Because if you are, you are in the wrong line of work.

And do you have any suggestions as to how law enforment personal “should” catch those who prey upon underage minors? Or are you saying that unless it is “complained” about by the child, it shouldn’t be a crime?

My guess (and people like Christy who have more experience than I would have a better sense of this) is that many of the children (older or younger than 14) who fall prey to the kind of man Doyle seems to represent, do so, because they have already been violated in some way, in some other context, even if it is exposure to sexual images which are inapropriate for children. Law enforcement who pose as “marks” also act as a decoy, and in so doing, likely attract the perp away from a real child.

I have a feeling you are in the wrong line of work.

JB2 – Yes, at some point the return of investment question must be asked. Can’t go after everyone all the time like BobbyG might want. Priorities. Need to talk about this issue more.

marky -

I’m not gonna get into the “line drawing fallacy” debate. Yeah, it’s a moral nuance certainly worth debating if 18 year old Johnny get collared for doing his 17 year old girlfriend the week prior to her 18th birthday.

This case is not about that. This is — allegedly — a dude near my age (he’s 55) thinking he was gonna hook up with a 14 year old.

If convicted he should go down HARD. I advocate zero tolerance for such behavior.

Last comment to you, bobby. Your proposal of a blanket life in prison for anyone having sex with or attempting to have sex with someone under 18 is idiotic. I’m glad that you admit a small amount of nuance in your last post.

CHS: You have a good point, and you are right that Berry is a kid and a victim. The NYT article at the very least acknowledges severe physical abuse by his dad. I would not be surprised if something else happened.

What I am trying to articulate about Berry is this: the way the story is being presented in Berry’s case ignores the dimension of bad parenting and puts it all out on the world. As I write this I realize that what I really want to advocate is both/and: get the perps in the online world AND go after bad and lax parenting also. The sensitivity is undoubtedly there for me because of a father who was a molester of my sisters and a lousy parent, and a mom who let this go on and refuses to acknowledge it to this day. I have a lot of anger at both and at such parenting in general. The public discourse on the Berry case ignores this dimension.

Hmmm this is a basic reply to a number of points I guess:

As the child and girlfriend of men who were sexually abused, I know all too well the impacts that abuse can have on a person all those years later. The number of people in this thread alone who have been marked by this horrific cycle breaks my heart.

Onto the apologists: I don’t say this to troll, but it is exactly what you’re doing. Jayt was right about one thing, the majority of children molested DO NOT go on to molest. So that leaves us with the rougly 30-40% who do, and the people who are just predators. Comparing pedophilia to hetero or homosexuality as “just another attraction” is dangerous and despicable.

Hetero and homosexuality occur between consenting adults. Children cannot consent to sexual behavior.

Everyone say this with me:
“Children are not sexual beings”

Of course my heart goes out to the criminals who got there because of a childhood of abuse, but there ARE choices in this life. Like I said, I’m the child of someone who endured some of the most horrific abuse you could ever imagine (severe beatings after rape, being “loaned out” to multiple men, sexual mutilation) and yet, this man was an extremely loving and respectful father who dealt with his abuse as an adult. Someone who can abuse after suffering abuse is not “wired” differently, they can not ever empathize with children and that lays the groundwork for many more sad stories.

The people that abuse children are sad lessons for us about what happens when we fail to intervene. A teacher who saw failing grades, a parent who ignored nightmares, a doctor who ignored symptoms. When fear overrides common sense and compassion, only children suffer. They are truly God’s loneliest creatures.

When it comes down to dealing with a predator (former victim or not) or the most defenseless members of our society, I’ll take the kid’s side anytime.

BobbyG –

I would have much less of a problem in a case where an actual complaint originates from an actual teenager (or his/her parents); then set up a sting. To me, that’s just a nice bright-line rule for a free society: investigate and prosecute crimes that already exist, don’t invent them.

And I don’t think I’m being too theoretical here; it’s not like over-zealous prosecution of child sex-abuse cases hasn’t led to some outrageous (and highly publicized) miscarriages of justice.

california_reality_check -

I’m not advocating “going after everyone all the time.” C’mon. Simply advocating zero tolerance for those convicted of adult-to-juvie/pedo crimes.

Our criminal punishment priorities are in large measure irrational.

One other point: I do not advocate imprisioning people “for” punishment, only “as” punishment. e.g., I take no shadenfreude joy in imagining pedos (or any other convict) getting violently sexually abused in the joint. It, again, goes to what we purport to value as a society.

libgirl, I appreciate your heartfelt comment, but I just have to respond to your pronouncement that “children are not sexual beings”
This does not match my memory or any reading I have done.

Christy

You are so right on. Now, I want to predicate this post with this. i know everyone will be sympathetic, and I appreciate it, but my reason for being so frank is to illustrate that ANYONE can become the victims of a Sexual Predator. They are no respectors of class or race or economic circmstance.

Four of my grandchildren were abused by, as Christy says, a “family friend.”

3 were little girls and one my 11 year old grandson. Turns out, this guy had priors of course, but had not registered in CA. so he was loose to wreak havoc and he did . On my family and if you think you are smart enough to see one, my husband and I who were formerly Psychiatric Technicians at a State Hospital that specialized in treating Mentally Disordered Sex Offenders didn’t catch on till it was too late. He even got under our radar, he was good. That is what they do, they groom, and manipulate not only the victim but the family as well. Gain trust and lull suspicion.

My 11 yr old grandson fell prey and then began to act out sexually as is often the case, and is now in the justice system himself. We are working hard to get him turned around, but hey it’s a crap shoot.

As a result, we have all been victimized for years as he is 17 now. I just wish the justice system had been as aggressive with the perp as they have been with my grandson and we might not be here today.

One thing Christy didn’t mention was how we, the family of the victims, have been victimized by our Community. Everyone seems to think that they are immune from Sexual Predators. In other words, if this happened in your family, “You must have done something wrong!” Somehow you invited it, or weren’t taking good enough care or whatever. We have been denied housing and evicted because of my grandson despite laws against harrassment, as though we were the criminals! My granddaughters have been taunted at school, and parents won’t let their kids play with them as though they have some contagious disease.

“Blame the victims!”

I got news for ya folks, that won’t protect you from the bad guys. They are out there and very good at finding any weakness in the family network that lets them get in the door and like Vampires, they are usually invited. The only difference between Me and Thee is sheer, dumb luck, so Beware!

JB2, FWIW I agree.

JB2-

Points taken.

Justin Berry, who ran a porn site for years out of his own bedroom — which required his own server — must not be confused with other victims of abuse. I don’t see how his parents are immune from prosecution — where did they think this equipment was coming from and with what money was it being purchased? There are real victimes out there, this kid was in it for money. I am not buying hims as a poster boy fpr internet molestation, in fact think he is the worst message than can be sent.

JB2,

As I said in an earlier thread, I was routinely abused by a family member (my father, actually) throughout my childhood.

One of the consequences of that is that I had no idea that I had a right to say no to anybody and therefore as a teenager, I was preyed upon by other older men. In the lingo of the day, I would’ve been considered a slut.

My father was never prosecuted because by the time I understood that what had happened to me was a crime, the statute of limitations had run out. However, if in those days, stings were being conducted (he molested many other young firls who were no family members) perhaps he would’ve been caught and I would have recieved the help I needed. Conversely, if one of the other men who preyed upon girls like me had been caught and I had been identified as a victim, I would have had the opportunity to “complain” about my father – something I never would have dreamed of doing without help or support simply becuase I was terrified of him.

You really need to educate yourself about this topic. As a human being and not a “libertarian.”

marky – i thought it was obvious that i meant they are not sexual beings in relation to wanting/being able/being developed/mentally capable of having sex with adults. surely you don’t think a 7 yr old can be sexual in regards to an adult? maybe i just wasn’t clear?

hope this clears things up.

libgirl, no it was not obvious. Of course I agree with your example of the 7 year old girl. But what about a 15 year old boy or girl? It’s not the same situation, is it?

Yes, marky, it can be the same situation for a 15 year old girl. I am speaking from personal experience.

This attitude is EXACTLY the kind of cultural wink and nod which provides provides psychological refuge to those who prey upon children as an expression of POWER. Because fundamentally, none of this is really about sex. Just as the rape of an adult woman isn’t. It is about weak, sick individuals who like to lord it over those who are vulnerable.

it’s interesting that you said 7 year old girl…i never mentioned a gender.

two children (15) consenting to have sex with eachother is bound to happen (not necessarily the right time developmentally), but they CAN consent. that’s why in my clarification i said “in relation to adults”. a 15 year old year old in not consenting to someone with more power or rights than them with another 15 year old (same for a 17 and 15, 16 and 14…)

to cover any other bases, someone above mentioned something about a drunk 21 year old having sex with a 14 year old. yes i find this despicable as the burden lies on the 21 yr old as the adult. it’s interesting people wouldn’t have a problem with that scenario. however if that 21 yr old were 18 and drunk, that would make the kid 11. still don’t see a problem?

libgirl

As I said, my grandson was a victim at 10 and when he offended he was only 11, but they charged him. They charged him because there was an age difference of 2 years. His ability to form intent was never considered nor was the fact that he had been a victim himself. It is my belief that had this been treated as a Mental Health issue instead of criminal, he would have gotten treatment much earlier than he did and that the odds would have been more in his favor. He was a little boy for Gods’ sakes and they treated him like an adult serial molester!

Christy –

Loved you on CSPAN! I’ve been a criminal lawyer for 14 years; currently I screen low-level felons for alternatives to incarceration. The thing about stings and undercover buys is that there are actual drugs and actual sales – and there’s usually reliable and credible information giving rise to the operation.

Anon –

In my jurisdiction, sexual penetration of someone 12 or younger is a life offense; 13-15 is a 15-year offense; 16 is the age of consent. I have no problem with that.

Kathi/Nanakat,

How awful for your grandson. The idea that anyone could believe that an 11 year old would do something like that out of the blue, for no reason is beyond me. So often, abused children are victimized twice; first by the original perpetrator and then by the system — or even their family. My prayers are with him and your entire family.

JB2

Do you think a 10 /11 has the intellectual capacity to form intent to commit such a crime?

Thank you, Christy, and all the commenters, for taking part in this important discussion. As a survivor myself, I believe that the primary reason that child sexual abuse continues to be an epidemic in our society is silence. The only way we can break the cycle is to talk about it, as openly and consistently as possible.

I was molested for years by my biological father–what shrink in sf calls a regressed offender. I have a lot in common with him, in terms of basic personality/aptitudes/etc. So far as I know, he was not molested as a child, but I can’t say for certain. Besides being a married father of four, he was a 20-year military vet and a dedicated high school teacher. He was intelligent, talented, politically progressive, and in many ways a good person.

He was also weak, selfish, and highly manipulative. And he never apologized or accepted responsibility for what he did to me. So do not misunderstand me; nothing could ever excuse his behavior. I share these humanizing details to drive home the point that child molesters are not the Other. They are not, in the majority of cases, monsters, and we cannot afford to think of them that way, because it makes denial and ignorance too easy.

To return to my original point: secrecy and silence are what allow these deeds to be perpetuated. We all have to be willing to face these realities and talk openly about them. That is the first step to healing, both for individuals and for our society. No more secrets.

Check this out.

http://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBGRC06VIE.html

They are not to good at background checks at the DHS. Buth then they are not too good at anything but cost the taxpayer a few gazillion dollars…

This will add nothing to the discussion but

are pedophiles mostly conservative?

Kathi/Nanakat,

That is truly horrible. This goes along with my earlier post; children cannot be judged the same sexually as adults. This allows people to punish them the same, or worse, judge their attraction to children as the same. Did your family take any sort of legal action? Were you able to?

Coming from clinical psychology, the statistics show that sexual predators are just not curable at all.

It seems to me that as “normal” people we think of sex as a way to express feelings both to ourselves and others. Not all of these feelings are positive, like when someone puts out to feel attractive, but essentially, they are about feeling better about oneself and making someone else feel good.

I don’t think abusers are interested in feeling better, so much as feeling powerful. And the feelings of the abused don’t come into the equation.

For so many people that I know who have been sexually abused, the biggest problem is that they end up connecting sexual feelings to anger and rage instead of love and caring. Trying to untangle these feelings is terribly difficult, especially if there isn’t good or sufficient counselling.

Too much bullshit here.
Like I said.. anyone that can’t see the difference between sexual contact with a 7 year old versus with a 15 or 16 year old is a pervert, in my mind.
I’m not condoning what the guy did , but he’s no Catholic priest. !

Not a lot of time today, so I skipped over the comments and came directly to the bottom of the thread. My apoligies to those above.

An FBI background check includes not only disclosures the subject makes by filling out forms that you cannot believe—sooo much detail–plus records checks for thing like criminal records, DMV, and taxes.

It also involves FBI agents going to every neighborhood you have ever lived in and questioning a minimum of 2 unrelated neighbors who remember you.

Also, the FBI asks you for a list of references and then askes each of those people for the names of two others not already on your list, and asks those people for two more and so on and so on until they just keep getting duplicates.

I was still a law student when I had my first B/G check. It took months. Hell, the located my kindergarten teacher!(We had a nice telephone reunion)

It has to be redone every five years even if you are still with the gov’t. I still get interviewed when they do the updates on agents and AUSA’s I have known.

If this guy was in the press office at DHS he is potentially exposed to tons of sensitive info. It is beyonf outrageous if this guy was not B/G checked. And if a check was done in-house, what the F*** does that say about the competance of DHS to protect us from—–anything?

A few years ago I was on a Grand Jury. Most of it was boring drug arrests and robberies. There was a comical case involving wannabe Mafiosos and a fascinating high school arson case. But what I dreaded were the days the sex crimes prosecutor came, especially when children came in to testify. It left me with a sickened feeling for a day or two afterwards. I don’t have any children, but that experience has made me more vigilant as to what goes on in the neighborhood. There are a lot of young children around. If I’m outside and see someone or something strange, I make note of it. Make and model of vehicle. Clothing. Anything. You never know when you’ll need to give a description to the police. Paranoid? Maybe. But there are a lot of sick people out there.

Female pedophile or rapist?

The teacher allegedly had sex with the boy 28 times during the last week of March, and on at least one occasion allowed the boy’s 12-year-old friend to watch, authorities said.

We draw ostensible legal lines, then we persistently blur them when they trouble us, e.g., adult sex with a “minor” just shy of his/her 18th birthday, charging a 13 year old as an “adult” in a murder case, etc.

I am a clinical psychologist who specializes in working clinically whild child abuse victims and who also conducts federally funded clinical research on child trauma victims. I have also worked on occasion with incest offenders (not exactly the same “type” of offender as a “pedophile” as the term is being used in this thread). I’d like to add a couple points to the discussion.

First – the “one in four” statistic that is being tossed around here is wrong. It is one in four GIRLS; the rate for boys is lower (still unacceptably high, and higher than an uninformed person might expect). So, let’s be clear about that. The rate for boys is closer to between 1 in 6 and 1 in 10. Hardly insignificant.

Second, as other posters have pointed out, as creepy as it may seem to say, all sex offenders are not the same. There are different treatment prognoses for adults versus adolescent offenders, and for those who commit exclusively incestuous abuse versus those who abuse both in- and outside of their families (treatment works better with the incestuous-only group, actually). Not all incest offenders have “hundreds” of victims. So, as difficult as it may be, I would encourage people to think through their knee-jerk revulsion and “kill them all” reactions to child abusers. Otherwise, we are using the same “black and white” dogmatism that we find so frustrating among right-wing ideologues.

Now that I’ve gotten that off my chest, let me echo the sentiment that something is indeed wrong with our system for resopnding to these offenses. People would be stunned — STUNNED — and outraged to know how FEW cases of child sexual abuse actually get prosecuted. There are many reasons offered for this (e.g., it’s often an adult’s word vs. a child’s, CSA victims often have other issues in their lives that make them less than ideal witnesses in a courtroom, etc.), and some of these actually make sense within the frame of reference of an adversarial court system.

But, as other posters have said more eloquently than I could ever hope to, society should not stand for this. It is a MAJOR social problem that gets ignored because kids don’t vote, and politicians (correctly?) assume that most adults don’t really care.

I am a prosecutor as well. I handle deprived cases, where children have been abused and neglected. I too have seen far more than I would ever want to remember and too many things I can’t forget.

I am afraid that that the one in four estimate is probably low. I often daydream about ways to uncover abuse, particularly sexual abuse. Our system does a woefully inadequate job of protecting children. I am particularly concerned about the children of middle class and wealthy parents. They do not often come under the scrutiny of people who could help them, like poorer people who have to deal with public servants.

My latest idea is to include questions in standardized tests that explore the issue of “safety.” That is a watchword in the business these days. It seems we could frame questions in such a way that children who have no sense of personal safety can be identified and at least considered for further screening. I don’t know, there are far more intelligent people on this site than me, so maybe someone could run with the idea.

We could also use a little support from the public. Get involved. Another idea is to create a program of public service where families will agree to take an abused or neglected child or children into their home as foster parents for one year. It could be incentived in a number of ways, perhaps a permanent small tax break, or other inducement. But to proclaim it as a public duty and even an honor is vital.

Please smart people, consider new ways of approaching this issue, I am too busy trying to help the ones we already have.

One other prosectuion-related comment: Have there been poorly conducted prosecutions that have resulted in “miscarriages of justice”? Yes. Undoubtedly. But ask yourself, what is the bigger problem, a small number of wrongly prosecuted and/or convicted individuals, or myriad child abuse victims whose perpetrators are never held accountable? There is a choice to be made here, and how you make it says something about your values.

And fwiw, the days of McMartin-style “witch hunt” prosecutions are LONG gone. This is a “boogey man” argument.

dws3665 -

Thanks for your insights. It’s problematic to a significant degree. We risk terrible injustices if we adopt hard-line/”bright-line” standards, and we risk the same in trying to balance “aggravating” vs “mitigating” factors on a case-by-case basis. The problem is certainly not new, nor unique to sexual abuse crimes.

and scottr — the one in four estimate is NOT low. your concerns, while commendable, probably reflect a common, fallacious tendency in human perception and judgment to over-estimate based on personal experience. (okay, dorky social science bit is now concluded)

that said — bravo to you for your great ideas about how to make a difference! people need to care about abused children every day, not just on the day after a government official gets caught.

This happens often. I put my job on the line when we discovered our client had child porn on this Dept of Ed issued laptop.

Itt amazes me that these people don’t understand the idea of a “cookie” or “history.”

I turned him in to the fbi after my company refused to acknowledge reality. It was the best move I ever made. He was finally arrested a few years back and there is one less sick man running a major govt agency.

eio – When you see something like that it has to be done. Job or no job. You need to be able to sleep at night. Good on ya.

libgirl

No, we didn’t take any civil action, can’t afford a lawyer. We are dealing with all the issues that have been talked about. My grandson committed Incest, but all the other victims of this perp were acting out with each other as well. They were younger though, so no one considered what they were doing as criminal behavior. XXXXXX (NOTE: RH here — I edited the name out since this person is still a juvenile — personal quirk, but privacy is important on these issues.) was older and a boy and now the DA wants him to tesify against his perp so they can keep him in prison.

When this all happened, there were 9 victims, 4 of them my grandkids. The perp was prosecuted for only one other kid, not for all. Therefore, the victims for whom he was not prosecuted, were not considered victims legally and so did not qualify for Victim Services, so none of them got counseling unless the parents were able to cough up the dough and since these were working people, their access to care was limited or NIL. We pushed CPS and they found funding for my grandkids.

In the end, I’d have to say we were at least as victimized by the System as by the original perp of the crime!

The State now wants to Civilly Commit my grandson and send him to a treatment program back East. i think it is a good program and the best we’ve hoped for since the beginning, but he is already labled and I think he has a difficult future ahead of him even if he never touches anyone again.

Society wants to lump all these cses together, and just punish as though somehow that would fix the problem. As long as politicians and ignorance of the problem prevail, we will never be able to help kids like my grandson. I have been watching this slow motion train wreck for 6 years, and hope the System has just insured that Boogs will end up just another statistic.

dws, post 213–any chance you could supply citation authority for the statistical figures for female/male rates of abuse? I have two law school profs who are screaming that it just can’t be. And perhaps you don’t know this , but being a law prof means you are always right.

that should be HAS’nt created another statistic.

I can’t see how this is supposed to reflect in any way on the Bush administration. It could be anyone- even a person from Clinton’s administration.

And of course there is a big difference between a 14 year old and an 8 year old. Sexual attraction to actual children is not the same as sexual attraction to what are in fact young adults- 18 years to majority or 16 age of consent are constructions based on averages.

Now trying to have sex with a 14 year old is disgusting, no doubt, something like (but way worse naturally) shoplifting, cheating at cards, or getting blowjobs from your OWN interns; you wonder at what kind of a person that must be. But it’s hardly sick in the gross sense of a crime against nature so to speak, which CHILD sex of course represents.

moe99 — i’m a professor myself, so i understand the infallibility of yours! There are any number of sources. Using Google Scholar, look up David Finkelhor’s work (notably Finkelhor, Hotaling et al., 1990), Mary Koss’s research, etc. You can use those as a starting point and branch out from there. Some of the controversy in these studies comes from how CSA is defined — that is, what specific behaviors constitute CSA. See also an NIJ publication in 2003 by Kilpatrick, Saunders & Smith — the rates in that study are lower, but it is a cross-sectional study of adolescents, all of whom are still in the prime “risk years” for sexual victimization.
There are also arguments about respondents “making stuff up” for fun, as if claiming to be a CSA victims is a crazy, kooky, fun way to mess around with scientists. My favorite way of responding to this is a paper by Smith, Letourneau et al. (2000) in Child Abuse and Neglect that documents the extremely low rates of disclosure among women raped in childhood. I hope that helps.

NBC’s east coast pedophile documentary and “sting” aired repeatedly last month also arrested ANOTHER Dept. of Homeland Security agent …. AT the “teen’s” house he went to for his “date.”

I may be wrong in that DHS agent was busted…. but another “sting” done for TV cameras in San Diego might have busted another DHS . . but I could be wrong . . there WAS an “officer of the law” that was arrested and admitted to his job at the time of the arrest . . on camera. I can not recall if it was a DHS officer or local law.

Kathi/Nanakat,

Your grandson’s ordeal is symptomatic of a society which does not value the inner lives of its children.

This whole business about age is a red herring.

There are so many children who don’t come from families who are able to even begin to cope with the trauma without some kind of outside professional help. The main thing your grandson needs is for somebody – anybody – to believe that it is possible for him to be who he really is, and not be defined for the rest of his life for what was done to him, or what he did when he was a child. He needs hope, even if it doesn’t come from within him.

I knew a young man who found the courage to confide in a guidance counselor when he was 16, who as was required by law, reported it to the police. The father was eventually convicted and jailed (and later died, unrepentent, in prison of prostate cancer) and the son did go on to college and got a degree in architecture. He was very very bright. But, by the time his trial for his father was over, he was no longer eligable for any mental health services (he was over 18). He was supposed to just “get over it” and with his mother and sister in denial and also angry that he had gone the police and put the whole family through the “shame” of a trial (he really had no where to go to talk about it) he ended up just stuffing the trauma of being sexually abused by his father throughout his childhood. When he was 23 he committed suicide by locking himself in an apartment and starving himself to death. I have often wondered if he wasn’t dealing with inner urges (ie, sex=violence) that he could not understand and was perhaps afraid that he would end up like his father.

I knew him, but I didn’t know anything about his history until he died. I am sure that was true of most of the people he knew. There are so many ways that society tells the victims of this crime to just keep it to themselves and get over it.

It is important to talk about it. I believe that the only way that children will ever be protected from these kinds of experiences is when we as a culture begin to take it seriously and begin to take steps not only to prevent it, but also to treat everyone involved, by which I mean the entire family, immediately when it is brought to light.

Very late to this party but I think the issue is one of control.

How many pedophiles are people who feel out of control or powerless?

What better way to feel in control or powerful than to abuse someone who does not have control or power?

I have skipped hear from about #50 so if someone has already mentioned this, apologies.

For anyone wanting to read more about Pedophilia (and worse) and the GOP, I can recommend “The Franklin Cover-up” by John De Camp.

And Jayt, please stick around.

Something to ponder – if one in four children have been molested then there’s a high likelyhood that one in four of the readers here has been molested. Me for one.

And I can attest to the behaviour described in John De Camp’s book as I have experienced similar treatment. It is a very nasty underside of our society and is the result of how our society is structured IMO.

You all may want to check out TalkLeft’s site regarding Doyle’s arrest.

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014467.html

and hearing update:

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014470.html

I’ll be back later with some more.
Thanks, Redd

My law office mate is a criminal defense attorney who has defended some molest cases, winning aquittals in two of them where the kid’s stories were completely preposterous.

The DAs are absolutely terrified of NOT prosecuting — no matter how preposterous the facts (think Bucky McMartin), since misleading facts can be used against the DA at election time. So lots of shit gets prosecuted that if it were a different kind of charge wouldn’t ever make it to court.

The penalties are draconian.

The upshot for me is that any adult would have to be absolutely nuts to have anything to do with kids. Why be a babysitter,teacher, priest or guidance counselor if you run the risk — small though it may be — that some kid may make something like this up about you and then have the absolutely insane system take over from there?

It’s a terrible quandry. Sexually violating a kid is a horrible crime. But as this comment thread shows, people are hysterical about it and many lose all sense of nuance so that people tend to be afraid to call bullshit bullshit when they see a kid spouting it.

Check out the HBO movie, The Indictment, which is about the Bucky McMartin trial and starring a great James Woods performance if you want to see what I mean.

Does anyone here care about what life is like for someone sentenced to prison for life after being falsely convicted of child molestation? It’s probably worse than the experience a 14 year old has when a 55 year old stranger talks dirty to her.

Something ought to be done about these disgusting heterosexual predators. They must be kept away from our young !!!

kaleidescope – Yes, that is why we must be sure to be careful with these accusations. It can ruin a persons life even if not true.

Just read the WaPo article re: Brian J. Doyle of Silver Spring. He’s a sick man. God help him.

Re: Spyware

To the parents who are considering (or have) installed spyware on the computers their children use, I think you owe it to yourselves and your children to tell them the software has been (or will be) installed. You should also make it clear that this is (in my case) Dad’s house, and Dad’s rules apply. One of Dad’s rules is that minors don’t have any right to privacy on the internet and cell phones.

This has worked reasonably well with my sons. There are some delicate issues with my younger son. He has a severe hearing loss and consequently relies on text cells (like the Sidekick), TTYs, chatrooms and IM software. Am I nervous about him? Of course, handicapped kids are more vulnerable to these scumbags. The workaround that we came up with was to log his chatroom activity and I have a Perl script that examines the logs for keywords (basically drugs and sexually explicit language). We haven’t uncovered any problems.

It’s a very delicate line to dance around. Teens are in the process of building themselves an independent identity. Responsible parenting (IMO) involves helping them to do that. Part of helping them is to allow them increasing responsibility and privacy.

BC

I hate to politicize this subject, but 6 years of republican rule has taught me that EVERYTHING is political whether we like it or not. Is there any way to acertain Mr. Doyle’s political party affiliation? The trolls on the Yahoo message boards are claiming that he is a registered Democrat. That may be the case, but somehow I doubt it. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If this guy is a republican, I would like for that to be widely known as they claim to be the party of “family values.”

anon

Things are looking up for Boogy. he finally got into a treatment program designed for kids his age and has done well. The good news is he is not a Sociopath, he finally has a good attorney and has come a long way. He is maturing and progressing. He has gotten his GED and is still working on a Diploma and this is a kid who could hardly spell his name a few years ago and is now pulling down A’s and B’s. It is probably a good thing he was as young as he was as I imagine just the process of his brain maturing will be a plus for him. His Attorney is looking at this program back East, but he wants to make sure it is the best thing for Boogs and that upon successful completion, he comes out with a real chance at a fresh start.
He has his family and we are fierce advocats for him and love him and the rest of our grandchildren very much, and as long as I have breath, I won’t give up. We did things wrong, but I have learned a lot, number one, don’t trust the system,(sorry Redd) they are not there to help, at least here they weren’t for us.

How many pedophiles do you suppose haunt the NSA rooms where domestic telephone taps are listening in to conversations of Americans — young as well as old, female as well as male? If it can happen in the Homeland Security Department, it sure as hell can happen in the even spookier NSA.

From Americablog.blogspot.com

2nd Homeland Security official in teen sex scandal – exposed himself to teenage girl in mall, formerly ran sex predator operation at Homeland Security
by John in DC – 4/05/2006 02:52:00 PM

Again, does Bush vet anybody for any job in this administration, or is it all just buddy after buddy after buddy who gets in (Brownie), who gets the contracts (Dubia, Halliburton)? One big Harriet Miers administration.

But this one really takes the cake. The head of Operation Predator was a child sex predator? Jesus Christ people. I’d like to know how this guy got his job.
…that law enforcement agent, Frank Figueroa, used to run Operation Predator.

The victim, a 16-year-old girl, said Figueroa pulled up a leg of his shorts, exposed himself and masturbated for about 10 minutes, according to the Tampa Tribune.

I think its now an old thread, but just to address what I read regarding my spyware, it gives me the beforehand knowledge, if you will, of up coming “party” or get together plans made by these kids. What the exact plans are from smoking, drinking, to planning on being assclowns on the school bus the next day. I have the knowledge to say, no you are not going to that kids house for a “sleep over, behave on the bus, no nonsense in school. I have no plans of revealing my information to him unless I feel he is in danger or really pushing the envelope. I am hoping that this breach of trust never happens, however, in my particular situation, I don’t believe it would come as a big surprise to him.
Most importantly I know who he is talking to, and if it’s someone I don’t recognize who may be asking the “wrong” questions, I’m right there to protect him.
I personally can’t believe the number of parents I’ve spoken to who were not aware of myspace.com and what their kids were posting. I for one will not put my head in the sand and blindly trust what or who is on the other side of the computer.

kaleidescope -
surely you are not suggesting that a movie about a case that occurred TWENTY years ago (McMartin) actually reflects anything resembling reality today. Yes, McMartin was bad. The family in that case was almost certainly prosecuted unnecessarily. And for a long time. However, the filed has learned an enormous amount about child interviewing and child testimony because of cases like McMartin. The practices that occurred in that case do not happen anymore (at least not commonly). And if they do, they are considered sub-standeard and fairly quickly tossed out of court. But you could not be more wrong in asserting that prosecutors are terrified not to prosecute. Prosecutors almost never prosecute CSA cases. Please do not confuse cases like McMartin with a “typical” (if there is such a thing) CSA case. That is the danger of relying on TV and the movies (or even standard print media) for your infomration about this.

There is a problem, but it is NOT overzealous prosecution.

Another Homeland Security official — Frank Figueroa, special agent in charge of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Tampa — faces trial this week…

Not only that — look at what he worked as a special agent. From a Google-cached page — the original article seems to be no longer available:

Last July, the Department of Homeland Security established Operation Predator, a law-enforcement body aimed at protecting children at home and abroad. The body has set up 35 offices, including six overseas, with agents who monitor child-sex tourism and go after groups or individuals that traffic children for the purpose of engaging in sexual crime. It has also established a cyber-crime centre which investigates the exploitation of children on the Internet. Operation Predator officials have arrested more than 2,200 suspected violators of the Protect Act, including the five alleged American paedophiles.

Operation Predator head Frank Figueroa believes the crackdown in the U.S. may prompt more Americans to engage in the sexual abuse of children abroad, at least in the short term. “It will become a little more difficult to engage in those things domestically,” Figueroa tells the REVIEW. “Therefore, people may travel abroad to engage in that type of activity.”

(ECPAT International online newsdesk, 22 April 2004: Red Light for Sex Tourists. Link to missing original was given as http://64.78.48.196/eng/Ecpat_…..?SCID=1356)

I’m hearing that there is a link between Doyle and people in the White House who instructed guards in Iraqi prisons to photograph/videotape Iraqi youths being sodimized. The Taguba Report has information on Abu Ghraib prisoners being tortured with chemical glow sticks (reminiscent of Clifton Bennett’s sodimizing of young kids with flashlights and broomsticks. One can’t help but wonder how much of this custom, GOP ordered kiddie porn is ending up in collections around the world…

The NSA polygraphs potential employees. They have real background investigations.

Bill Selznick — I clicked on that link and read about the Arizona state senator’s son who -while a camp counselor at a Christian camp– “broomed” 18 boys, lining them up and poking them with a broomstick, a mop handle, and a flashlight. The charges were reduced so that he will not have to serve time or report what he’s done to future employers if he wants to be a teacher.

The camp is a Christian camp for youngsters. The accused made it sound as if this is conventional at that camp, and used to discipline and humiliate. One boy was held down until he passed out. He was also “broomed” several times.

The families feel that it was a sexual assault, but the prosecutor didn’t feel that way, reducing it to a single charge of aggravated assault (probably it will be a misdemeanor).

The school of one of the children reported the assault (presumably the child complained).

But you know, it was all for “discipline”. Why the discipline of these Christian Camp counselors takes the approach of sexual violation, I don’t know.

But clearly if it happens “for discipline,” or “all in good fun”, it’s not seen as assault. I bet you many of those molested by pedophiles, however, were told it was discipline or fun.

Courts ought to see this for what it is.

Remember JonBenet Ramsey? All sorts of fuss about who killed her; practically none about the world of prepubescent beauty contests where little girls are tarted up, as JonBenet was, to look like sex objects.

Or places like Club Libby Lu at Tyson’s Corner Mall, which does the same tarting-up of the same age group, as a kid party thing. Click the link and look at that first pic – and that’s a WaPo Style Section story from about a week and a half ago.

#150, RT – Bingo! The messages sent with this sort of “dress up” can and do lead to horrific actions. The little girls learn about becoming sexual objects, obtaining their love and acceptance from that “role.” And the “adult” forgets that the dressed up object is a living child and take sexual action against her – perhaps he doesn’t “forget” but plans on using the seductive attire as the reason for his action – blame the victim.

Served on a molestation jury one time. We were all very shocked at what we heard. It was an incest case, a grandfather. The victim got on the stand and the P used a doll to talk about what happened to her.

An expert told us there were four types of peds, extroverted-fixated, extroverted-regressed, introverted-fixated, introverted regressed. Extrovert/introvert refer to how a person can express their sexuality (achieving satifaction with another v satisfaction with themselves.) Fixated means nothing else turns them on, regressed means they can be turned on by other things. Extroverted/fixated are the most dangerous combined with other risk factors. These are your predator types and the ones pursued by authorities. Introverted regressed are the closeted types that don’t need or want any real contact.

Family services lady who conducted the inital interviewed showed us a video of it. They are real careful to avoid suggestion. A doll was used to talk about the issue with the child.

The problem for the victim was informing on her grandfather when he provided much of the parenting and family support.

It was a really messed up family, drugs, abuse, divorce. The conviction guidelines were under 14, touching anywhere on the body, and luscivious intent. Took us two hours to convict and that was only because we felt guilty about coming back too soon.

My hats off to prosecuters/judges/cops/etc who work in this area. Really tough stuff. Nobody wins even with a conviction.

Christy, I hate to tell you, but you’re missing the point. Background checks aren’t going to catch it, and neither you nor your readers (me included) are gonna like the answer to what really causes it, but it has a good deal to do with upbringing, and a few other things that are really popular in this society, and I wish everyone good fucking luck, ’cause it’s not going to change. You’re right about most of it, but the cause, the real cause is well known, and there ain’t much anyone will want to do about it when they find out what it is. Trust me. Depressing!

dws3665:

Here in Humboldt County, California, the DA (a liberal) certainly prosecutes cases where one close look at the kid’s story would show that it couldn’t have happened. I’ve observed my office mate defend two such cases before juries in the past two years (winning acquittals in both). The way these cases are investigated is that the cops only look for evidence to incriminate; they don’t look to uncover the whole story. Ditto for the DA’s investigators and the child interview specialists. Everybody’s too sensitized to try to pursue leads that the kid might be full of shit. Who wants to look like a monster for doubting a child molest victim?

Charges of child abuse are a common tactic in custody battles. That happens all the time and I’ll bet it ain’t just in good old Humboldt County.

In another case here, one defended by another acquaintance of mine so I know some of the facts, there is a young man (24) who’s been sentenced to two life terms because his lawyer thought the prosecutor’s affirmative case was so weak the lawyer didn’t bother to put on a defense case. After the conviction, witnesses came forward whose testimony made it clear the kid’s allegations couldn’t possibly be true. Tough shit for the 24 year old; he sits in San Quentin.

Last year the local timber company tried to recall the DA for having the temerity to bring a fraud suit against it. In the recall, all sides waved supposed lienent approaches to child molesters around to try to show their opponent(s) were soft on child molesters. No rational politician would do anything other than prosecute.

I’m impressed with the obvious compassion and intellectual curiosity of the posters in this thread. This blog is special – usually when this subject comes up on the Internets, all you see is lots of flaming, graphic fantasies of disembowelling offenders with rusty nails, and not much in the way of gaining more insight.

I’m also impressed with the range of experiences here, especicallt those of prosecutors and defense attorneys. I think most people who have to deal with these things are genuinely trying to do the right thing in the face of a very difficult situation, and the comments above do lots to reaffirm that faith.

So I’ll add something of my own experience here. I’m one of those people who are, for reasons that I can’t figure out at all, wired to find children sexually attractive. I also strive to be a moral person, and take the principle of “do no harm” very seriously. So even though I enjoy the fantasies quite a bit, I have never touched a child sexually. That makes my situation quite a bit different, in lots of ways, than the people Christy has prosecuted. I’m fortunate in lots of ways – my parents taught me well the difference between right and wrong, I’m not by nature impulsive, and I don’t have any problems with drug addiction or mental illness (aside from a bit of mild depression). And it’s been plenty struggle enough for me. I can’t imagine how people coming from a less fortunate place manage to cope.

I don’t have answers to the horrible suffering that results from adults molesting kids, but maybe some good will come from participating in this conversation anyway.

“Get help” sounds nice, but the help that’s available is not appealing. About half of the professionals I’ve come across are well meaning, but not very bright and without much in the way of tools to be of much actual help. The other half probably think of themselves as well-meaning, but have some kind of personal issues that get in the way, and probably have something to do with the reason they got in the field in the first place. If there were good programs for helping people like me deal with their sexual feelings, without huge risks of bad shit happening, there would probably be lots of people going into them voluntarily. (they’re starting to try stuff like this in Germany — see here — but it probably couldn’t happen in the US even if there were decisive clinical evidence that it worked.

The right-wing here is very good at preying on people’s fears, whether being beheaded by Muslims or having their children molested by perverts. Bill O’Reilly really gets into his groove when criticizing various liberals for being too soft on sexual offenders. And people I’ve talked to generally tend to side with Bill on this, even if they’re not of the Faux-news dittohead persuasion. And it’s also interesting to see how support for the death penalty, torture, surveillance, etc., all come out, even on the really liberal blogs, when talking about molesters, or even people who fantasize about children without doing anything. “Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.” But perhaps Matthew didn’t really mean _the_ least of these. I mean, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere, right?

What I’d love to see more than anything else is a good scientific inquiry into what makes people like me tick, how to prevent abuse from happening, and in general, what kinds of societal changes would reduce the suffering all around – children and adult attracted to them both. I’m well-read in science, and have some ideas about what lines of attack might be fruitful, but haven’t ever really managed to have a good conversation with anyone else, amateur or professional, about my ideas. I’ve considered setting up a blog and writing my thoughts down in detail, but so far am not sure it would be worth the time, emotional energy, etc.

Sorry for the rambling. I usually write concise, clear, and to the point blog comments, but I guess I don’t have much concise, clear, and to the point to say about this topic. Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this far in.

kristinejoy #113: you got it. It’s about power. I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe the “urges” thing. Even a one-night stand, if it’s a benevolent one, involves having fun together. It does not involve entrapment, lies, force, and committing what anybody knows are crimes. Pedophilia is about trapping the powerless and getting off on that. Brand the slimedicks.

The other comment I wanted to second that’s not getting enough attention is the one about everyone on the periphery of the crime (sorry, I forgot who the commenter was). That also relates to *preventing* these crimes instead of wringing our hands over tham afterwards. Let’s face it, the perps are more powerful than the victims. Prevention involves being obstreperous with “pillars of the community” or pillars of the family, for the sake of a kid who’s probably going to be too scared or ashamed to help themselves or you. So most of us just kinda hope the whole thing doesn’t happen. Which is why it happens.

We all have to stop being social cowards. Take the pledge. All together now.

Actually, Human, #252, I hadn’t read that far before posting my comment, but I did see it when I looked at mine. So I’d like to add that my comment doesn’t apply to unhurtful sex that people might have in the privacy of their own minds. If you have the sense not to hurt someone else, then that’s different.

kaliedescope, you just couldn’t me more wrong. Your comments make you sound like a defense lawyer, so that does put your remarks in some perspective. Don’t get me wrong; I believe strongly that everyone is entitled to a forceful, competent legal defense. But your perspective seems to be that no one is guilty, and children’s accounts often “couldn’t possibly be true.” Typical defense bar comment.

I see that you also trot out the old canard that CSA allegations are common in custody cases. You are wrong. This is a common discrediting tactic. (Plus — guess what? Sometimes CSA is the reason for a custody dispute!). Rates of false or non-credible allegations are not especially high in custody cases (if you bother to consult data, rather than your own opinion and courtroom conventional wisdom).

If, as you claim, the “liberal” DA in Humboldt County is eager to prosecute CSA cases, be assured that she is HIGHLY unusual. Similarly, if you have ANY law enforcement officers who actually can be BOTHERED to investigate crimes against children, that is also HIGHLY unusual. I suspect, however, that as a defense attorney, your exposure to the scope and nature of CSA allegations and investigations is very skewed, as most cases never even get a whiff of criminal proceedings.

Human, I hope your post isn’t a lie, because if so that is a one sick need for attention.

But if it’s true, you’re a time bomb waiting to go off. All people like you need is one big stressor and a child is attacked. If you’ve done the reading like you say you have then you know the progression from fantasy, compulsive fantasy, to pornogrpahy, to molestation.

Get thee to an asylum.

BobbyG:

We go to medical and mental health providers all the time for help with our problems, many of which we emphatically want held in private. Doctor-patient privilege should suffice for someone simply going for clinical help with such urges.

But remember that a lot of health professionals are now legally required to report any evidence they come across of child abuse. If I had a problem where getting help might land me in jail, I’d keep it to myself.

How about a reality check?

I know people who like to look at pictures of teenage girls on line. In fact, some of these girls may be 17 or even 16. These pictures float around usenet. You don’t have to pay anything to download them, you just need a newsreader (like Netscape or Outlook). And the simple fact is that these pictures are legal in their country of origin.

These guys I know (three of them at least) have never molested anybody, and they’ve been looking at usenet pictures of teenage girls since they were teenagers themselves.

I don’t want to defend the creep at DHS, but I really think you are painting this issue with way-too-wide a brush. It reminds me of prosecutors who see no difference between a guy with a joint in his pocket and a guy shooting up heroin in a crack house.

It’s ridiculous that you get 20 years in the slammer for having pictures of a naked teenager on your hard drive, but you can sodomize a five year old and get only 3 to 5 years. Where’s the sense in this? You’re the former prosecutor. Explain to me how having pictures of a naked 17 year old on your hard drive is worse than fucking a toddler.

John Smith — I just happened to check the thread as your comment went up. And having had to live through viewings of multiple photographs of people having sex with toddlers (and worse), I can tell you without any question that I would rather eat glass than have to force myself to open another kiddie porn case file. But let me explain something to you about kiddie porn — somewhere there is a child who has been repeatedly molested in order for those photographs to be taken. Explain to me how walking away from a child who has been repeatedly forced to have sex against his or her will — either by being drugged, raped, or worse, often by their own family — is acceptable. Even when the child is 16 or 17. And just so we are crystal clear on this — you rape a toddler. There is no other appropriate label for what is done. Are there sentencing questions? Sure. Could we do better mental health intervention? Absolutely. But do not try and rationalize something until you’ve seen the after-effects of this crime on the children who get left drowning in its wake.

This might come as a disappointment to some but the underground passages and rooms described by the children in the McMartin case were unearthed i.e. found and confirmed a couple of years later at the site of the kindergarten.
Another point that is never explained is how 500 people could have te same delusion

Good on ya, Redd.
A lot of these creeps are networked through fraternities and service organisations. And they cover each other backside. That’s their first loyalty.
There’s a lot more to this and it involves the security alphabet agencies and would go a long way to explaining tmidity on the part of a lot of congress people .
Gotta go now but will return later with some links.

I am a prosecutor as well. I handle deprived cases, where children have been abused and neglected. I too have seen far more than I would ever want to remember and too many things I can’t forget.

I am afraid that that the one in four estimate is probably low. I often daydream about ways to uncover abuse, particularly sexual abuse. Our system does a woefully inadequate job of protecting children. I am particularly concerned about the children of middle class and wealthy parents. They do not often come under the scrutiny of people who could help them, like poorer people who have to deal with public servants.

My latest idea is to include questions in standardized tests that explore the issue of “safety.” That is a watchword in the business these days. It seems we could frame questions in such a way that children who have no sense of personal safety can be identified and at least considered for further screening. I don’t know, there are far more intelligent people on this site than me, so maybe someone could run with the idea.

We could also use a little support from the public. Get involved. Another idea is to create a program of public service where families will agree to take an abused or neglected child or children into their home as foster parents for one year. It could be incentivized in a number of ways, perhaps a permanent small tax break, or other inducement. But to proclaim it as a public duty and even an honor is vital.

Please smart people, consider new ways of approaching this issue, I am too busy trying to help the ones we already have.

New DHS Motto:

Keeping America Safe — In the Back of My Van

Griffon #261 you are wrong. Nothing was ever found and the McMartins and other teachers at the school were innocent. This case destroyed many lives.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/facult…..count.html
I am familiar with the case because my ex-spouse was one of the tv journalists who promoted the story. (They had a lot to gain from the airtime and ratings.)

dws3665:

You got me wrong. Criminal law isn’t for me. I do plaintiff’s side environmental law. You might say I’m a prosecutor.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying CSA doesn’t happen; I’m just saying that a lot of this thread sounds like the howl of a lynch mob.

I suspect we all have stories like this. I have a friend who was raped by her mother’s boyfriend when she was so young she had to have surgery because ther vagina healed shut. One of my cousins was raped by her grandfather, my uncle, who threatened to kill her pony if she told anyone. People like my uncle deserve to go to prison for a long time.

There are horrific things happening out there, no denying it. But it’s total bullshit to think false convictions and hysteria are a thing of the past. Look at this thread. As one of my political science profs (a deconstructionsit) once said, “the text is the data.”

Okay, Kaleidoscope, sorry for reading you wrong. I appreciate your clarifying. I agree that some posters’ comments seem to be based on emotional reasoning, but for many folks this is an emotional and personal issue. I did not read your earlier posts as commentary about what other posters wrote, though. You seemed to me to be pointing a finger at society and the unfair prosecution of cases — which I still maintain is a much less significant problem than the under-prosecution of cases, but we can agree to disagree about that.

Christy:This is a long and complicated issue, and our present approaches are doomed to fail! Consider the Dru Sjoden murder in Minnesota/North Dakota. The guy was a convicted sex offender, who served 23 years, (his whole sentence) was released as low risk, and 3 months later allegedly, grabed and killed a poor kid named Dru Sjoden. Now, anyone who knows anything about sexual predators could have told you what was going to happen. This is not a field without research, lots of it, going back years….. We know what causes it. Absolutely none of the laws available to us will do the trick, nothing. Unless you, the liberal legal scholor (and I’m not trying to be sarcastic) are willing to take a lock em up forever approach, which I believe is unconstitutional! We need a basic change in society, and I’m just cynical enough to believe that it’ll never happen. We cause 90% of sexual predators. They are not born that way. It happens in the first three years. After that, well….. we permit the conditions that allow them to function. If you care to research the subject from a medical instead of a legal point of view, it’s not hard to find good research, but the conclusions they come to are pretty depressing.

Redd,
here’s an article on British MI5 involvement in organised pedophilia that was used to compromise diplomats. The article has more links in it.

http://rigorousintuition.blogs…..-ring.html

Stuff on George H W Bush and the Franklin case
http://www.voxfux.com/features…..anklin.htm

and for truthseeker #265 re McMartin – the tunnels were found sometime after the court case. I believe there was an earlier abortive attempt at finding them.
It wasn’t till the parents organised their own professionally conducted search that they were found.

http://rigorousintuition.blogs…..-part.html

http://rigorousintuition.blogs…..rt_19.html

The crucial thing is that these guys are networked and are in every profession and like that FBI guy who just got charged they get themselves into gatekeeper positions. The pedophilia that you come across and is in the papers is just the tip of the iceberg. Few people can imagine what goes on. I know this from personal experience.

Havn’t read all. Not a professional but can only hope that raising my kid to be self confident and aware is the best prevention. Am afraid that in Germany we have not even begun to see the tip of the iceberg with this problem. Although the thought of someone coming near my kid makes my blood boil, I am not convinced that long sentencing is any kind of deterrent.

It just seems to me whenever the justice system is involved then it is too late. Being an expat American here, my experience is that an extremely vigilant community (we are fortunate to have a small town atmosphere still) is perhaps the best deterrent even if the community Moms usually go overboard with their first reactions to suspicious actions… that goes double for the internet and hey call me naive but I think that is where the efforts should be concentrated – perhaps something equivalent to a neighborhood watch??

We have had similar high ranking pedophiles in Belgium where not everyone has been caught and I doubt very seriously that more than breaking the surface will be accomplished. I think it must be heartbreaking work.

Still. Still. One hopes that people with this illness can be helped and am not afraid to be called a socialist liberal for these sentiments. Thank goodness we don’t get O’Reilly here in Germany (yet).

This is one of the best I’ve seen in a long time. One thing left out, the only thing, is that the pedophile is most likely not a stranger. This is not to minimize the on-line dangers, far from it. It’s a necessary reminder that danger is not only from outside the family.

I’d like to add one comment about how to protect kids from on-line predators. Put the computer in the living room. With the screen facing into the room. If you’re serious about protecting them, that is.

I can’t resist one last comment on this thread. I told my criminal defense office mate/friend about Mr. Doyle and the Polk County deputy. Her response was that Doyle was stupid. “Don’t they realize, there aren’t any fourteen year old girls out there on the internet advertising themselves as fourteen year old girls? They’re almost all either deputies, Special Agents, or vigilantes posing as fourteen year old girls.”

I am pastor to a convicted sex offender, someone who molested his own daughter and destroyed his entire family in the process. He has been out of prison for two years and is in therapy. He tells me that yes, he was sexually abused as a child and that his mother did nothing to stop the abuse, but instead retreated into a liquor bottle so she didn’t have to think about what was going on in her home. He grew up to abuse alcohol and crack. He stopped using drugs and liquor while in prison and has not resumed using since then. He is in AA and has been clean and sober for ten years.

My parishioner tells me that he has not been sexually attracted to a child since he stopped using drugs and alcohol. With the help of his parole officer and his therapist, he is rebuilding his life. He needs to believe, with every breath he takes, that there is hope for him. He has told me he would rather die than go back to being the man he used to be on the day he molested his daughter. He needs to believe that he has a realistic chance of making a permanent change in his life.

To say that there is no hope for him is like telling a cancer patient that they have no chance of beating cancer. The odds may not look good but, some people are able to beat the odds.

I sure that Christy’s experience is the same as what other prosecutors around the country are seeing. But, I also believe, based on my own experience that some sex offenders don’t want to continue to be sex offenders. Whenever we find even one person who wants to break the cycle of abuse, I think it is worthwhile. A person who stops the cycle can effect just as many lives as a person who continues to abuse.

My parishioner has had ten years free of pedophilia. Is it just a remission or is he cured? I don’t know. But ten years of healthy living is a blessing, for him and for the children around him. Thanks for reading.

Most men (thank God) are not sexually attracted to prepubescent children. But we are all hard-wired to be attracted to 14-year-olds; in primitive cultures, 14 is often the age of marriage for girls. If we don’t continue to find them attractive, that’s due to (a) social conditioning for men, imposed by our laws and customs and (b) modern teenage culture that makes younger teenagers seem like creatures from some alien planet.

So this guy is not a pedophile. But he certainly is a creep.

MomOf3

I think its now an old thread, but just to address what I read regarding my spyware, it gives me the beforehand knowledge, … I have no plans of revealing my information to him unless I feel he is in danger or really pushing the envelope. I am hoping that this breach of trust never happens … Most importantly I know who he is talking to.

I think the thread’s dead, but I’ll put this up anyway. He’s your son, you have to handle things the way you think is proper. But kid’s aren’t stupid and he’s going to figure out that you’re reading his on-line content. And he’ll probably figure it out sooner rather than later. My relationship with my sons is such that I felt it better to tell them that they didn’t have privacy rights, that I would be watching the cell phone bills and that I would be logging their internet activity. Dad’s house, Dad’s rules. In Mom’s house they have to follow Mom’s rules.

But the important thing is to know who they’re talking to.

BC

Maybe you HAVE to be a child molester to get a job with DHS. Over at Crooks and Liars they have a link to this on AMERICAblog.

“2nd Homeland Security official in teen sex scandal – exposed himself to teenage girl in mall, formerly ran sex predator operation at Homeland Security“
http://americablog.blogspot.co…..-teen.html

and a third possible caught up in “To Catch a Predator III” over at MSNBC

“Michael Burks: My father was a police officer. I was a police officer. I work for the Department of Homeland security”

Non-predators need not apply

Loopy–

I totally disagree that people are hard wired to be attracted to 14 year olds. As an adult lesbian, I do admit I am hard wired to be attracted to women, but when I meet a 14 year old girl I think “what a charming young lady,” not “I’d like to get her in the sack.”

I’ve been trying to get my head around this whole pedophlle (and whatever hairsplitting distinction you want to make, these guys are pedophiles AND creeps) and it only makes my head hurt.

What I do think is that this perverse attraction is indicative of is an infantile extremely immature sexuality, as well as the capability to completely objectify another human being. Ugh…

sola mia #91: Understood and accepted as reality, and while I agree that attraction to teens (in varying degrees, but way below “obsession”) is not a deviance, I would believe it to be so if that was an exclusive focus of one’s attraction.

That is, simply finding a teen – or, some fantasy which involves idealized teen-associated characterisitics, perhaps – somehow attractive doesn’t seem unusual or sick to me. But, if that’s ALL one can associate with their sexual or related thoughts and feelings (i.e., as opposed to adult peers), then that fixation may be a concern that we’d want to somehow get a safe handle on earlier – rather than after having the affected person trying to act out on it.

Also agree with others above that pedophilia, or sexual predation and acts against any minor, is on the right-most side of a chain which might go from relatively unremarkable characteristics (i.e., fleeting attractions, occasional fantasies) towards real-world concerns (i.e., deepening obsessions, fixations, actual attempts to attract kids, taking actions/being violent). I don’t know where the line is for concern. There’s actually lots to talk about here, but this particular case – if true – is definitely on the very bad side of things.

I believe that it’s proper that we’re very legally protective of our kids and even teens from sexual assault, but I think that others here have brought out the accurate point that this issue inflames us so badly in general that sometimes the ability to discuss anything surround these issues can be tough – making social understanding of how to deal with it from a prevention standpoint harder to accomplish. That’s partly why I like to bring out the specifics of what is being discussed, to keep context and emotions on the mark whenever this kind of topic surfaces again. There are alwayys big reactions (fully deserved) to the terrible kinds of actions that reports like this one bring up in related discussion, but after these difficult discussions, how do we move forward to help improve the perception of needing to ingrain prevention within our society rather than just reacting after the awful damage is done? FBI agents posing as teens or younger is something, as is keeping computer use supervised – great. But, doesn’t necessarily affect overall impressions of how to prevent potential (and current) abusers from trying to find opportunities to strike.

One of my sisters, who is impacted by permanent neurological and physiological issues, was sexually assaulted by a gang of males in their 20s during an afternoon when she was a teen – she had run away from her school mid-day and this happened just before we all found her. I viewed these 20-somethings as severe criminals (among other things), but suspected that they went after a young, mentally and emotionally handicapped teen because of her vulnerability first, and their sexual orientation second. I’ve learned alot since then.

That incident, which lasted far beyond when it occurred, eventually got me thinking about “why?”. Ever since, I’ve tended to study topics such as sexual predation, child sexual abuse and related topics of adult rape because I wanted to better understand why it happened to my sister, what it might mean for her and victims like her in their lives. Then, how to understand what we want to concentrate on to emphasize prevention, in addition to dealing with those who are actually attempting (or, have) already abused kids.

I guess that at this point I’ve gone beyond knee-jerk habitual reaction and have accepted that some people are power-obsessed criminals in general, some are wired for attractions to kids and/or teens almost exclusively, some folks live dangerously close to obsession but fortunately never act on it (why? – that would be helpful to better understand and take advantage of), and lots of folks have a balance of thoughts and feelings for teens or kids, some of which might add minor aspects to the mix in their private fantasy portfolio, but never in some serious or pervasive manner.

Through either genetics (seems less often) or events in their upbringing, those who focus almost exclusively on children for their sexual fantasies are highest priority, potential dangers. This makes me want to go back and find stats on which percentage of pedophiles actually try to take action based on their feelings or urges, but their state of mind is a concern even when they haven’t yet, I feel. Certainly, for them to try and “live it through” is to attempt abusing a kid by someone in a position of power, and there are no two ways about that. I’ve read many of them trying to reconcile child sexual abuse due to their subjective perspectives, but it’s assault or worse. Period.

Punishments which involve long-term treatment options – including some which involve more on-the-edge ideas such as substitution therapies, castration, etc. – to try and alleviate the focus that they can’t control might *need* to be somewhat extreme in comparison to typical societal and even legal standards, perhaps, but I have wondered if they might be necessary in order to be effective for an extreme condition which seems often beyond traditional therapies. Tough to find successes out there, overall, but affected people do deserve the help in many cases, else we’ll never find a way to cope with this kind of general condition in the future – again, my emphasis would be on finding means and methods to prevent actions from ever occurring these days. We already know that enforcement is doing the best it can, and still working to improve.

Now that my spouse and I have our own child (with another on the way), I wonder as a parent how we balance keeping her sensitive to knowing when something is not right and enabling her to trust in telling us, that secrets are never right to keep, regardless of who tells you to, etc. Because I don’t think that our diligent patrolling and prevention ideas are enough to even all the odds against what’s out there in the world, so we need her to be made aware of good and bad to at least help us pick up on when things start to look and feel “wrong” as she grows up, and to bring her up being self-enabled as much as she can be. Maybe it will help avoid situations where we or no other trusted adult is around to help and she needs it – I don’t know. Like everything else in her life, I’m worried but positively driven to help her grow up knowing the world as a kid, and still being realistic about it as she can handle. I can’t keep her in a cocoon of protection from bad elements and abusive people – I’d become a type of abuser for denying her ability to live in the world, frankly. But, sexual assault cuts so deep as a violation of her being that more understanding of what it is and why it happens might help us to better protect against it coming near to her life, I feel.

Suzanne Hayes,
I’m sure you know that pedophiles can be extraordinarily manipulative, after all it’s their MO. Some can be extremely contrite with tears and the whole lot. The clue to whether they are being genuinely contrite is if they speak of the damage they have done to their victims, that they volunteer grief for how their victims have been damaged and show insight into how it must feel for the victim. What have they DONE to atone to the victim?
Too many predators grieve for how THEY feel. While ever it’s about them, they ain’t “got it”.

“My parishioner has had ten years free of pedophilia. Is it just a remission or is he cured? I don’t know. But ten years of healthy living is a blessing, for him and for the children around him.”

I sincerely hope he is not allowed around children let alone being encouraged to for his sake as well as their’s. If he is and you are not protesting about it how do you propose to compensate any possible future victims of his? Because you will be partly responsible, if this is the case.

Pedophilia is a form of addictive thinking as is anti-social personality disorder. It is not an illness or a disease, it’s a decision. Once indulged in, though, it leads to corrupted thinking bit by bit, a narcosis if you like, whereby everything feels fine and there are no bad consequences (for the indulger/perpetrator). It’s the same pathological thinking as any addiction such as alcoholism. And like alcoholism, it can’t be cured only controlled.
And you don’t put a recovering alcoholic in carge of the liquor store.
But initially it is a decision. That is why some abuse victims go on to become abusers themselves and others don’t and why some who have never been abused do so to others.

It is about whether or not to indulge in power over others to assuage your fear. Whether or not you choose to exploit others for your own perceived benefit

It is so good to see and hear someone who is not afraid to shout this out, instead of hearing the normal SHHHHHHHHHHHHH from those who are protecting these monsters that continue to harm our childern!
I have some information that I would like to share with you, but it is to long to post here on this site, so I am going to ask you to please send me your email address.
I pray that after you have read my email, you will send out the calvary, or point me in their
direction so I can find them.
Thank you in advance for your time and for any help that you may be able to give.

Respectfuly Your’s,
Ty Ruth
tyger8@sbcglobal.net

Dear Christy Hardin Smith
The message #281 above was for you, sorry, I did not make that clear, so I am doing that now!
Thank you again,
Ty

—-My youngest, 13 year old boy lives with me. We just recently moved to CT. He was spending alot of time IM’ing his friends. Hiding the screen when I walked into my room where the computer is located. One night, after surfing the web I realized I could purchase “spy-ware†and download it on my computer. It runs in stealth mode and I can bring it to the surface with just a few keystrokes. From this I get everything written on this computer. This suddenly became invaluable to me. I now know exactly who he’s talking to and what is being said. It was a reasonable price for invaluable information. I recommend this for any parent who wants to know what their child is doing on the computer.

Such a shameless intrusion of privacy is disgusting (IMO). How would you like it if he was taping all your phone conversations (just to be safe)?