In a NYTimes article that should come as no surprise to the legal minds in the audience, defense counsel for a number of charged and convicted terrorism suspects are planning to challenge cases based on the latest revelations on the NSA spying domestically. To do less would be malpractice, because many of these defendants were American citizens, so this ought to be no shock to anyone who has spent time as defense counsel in criminal matters.
But as someone who has also been a prosecutor, I can tell you that this scenario is your worst nightmare in those shoes. No matter how solid your case, no matter how dirty the defendent might be, no matter how clean you thought your case was, the US Attorney is going to have to combat the perception by defense counsel that the defendant found his way into the government crosshairs through a dirty wiretap — which hamstrings the government’s case at the start.
And even though most of the USAttys probably had no idea that the NSA program existed (because it would be way above most of their clearance levels), let alone how it was being handled, they are imputed with that knowledge because the government is supposed to act in an above-board manner.
They are required to turn over the evidence used in the investigation of a defendant as discovery — if crucial evidence was withheld, say that an illegal wiretap was used to target a specific defendant or that during that illegal wiretap, conversations were recorded which would show that the defendant might not be so guilty after all — well, that is a big no no. And that is true whether or not the prosecutor ever knew the wiretap existed, because the law requires that the government conduct itself fairly in these matters, and that they follow the law. Especially when it comes to exculpatory matters for discovery.
Which leads to all sorts of questions:
– Are these cases going to have to be re-tried, wasting loads of taxpayer dollars if parts of the evidence is found to have been withheld — especially exculpatory evidence — because national security concerns were felt at the time to trump civil rights issues?
– Are judges going to find a way to uphold the convictions (especially where you did have overwhelming evidence of a bad actor, which is highly possible, given the fact that this is al quaeda we are talking about), while at the same time smacking down the government through the spectre of prosecutorial misconduct and some dressing down in that regard?
– Or will there be a case where the evidence that may have been withheld was so egrigious that the court will throw out a conviction altogether, whether or not the defendant involved was a terrorist or linked to some sleeper cell in the US?
– Are these defendants even going to get past square one in determining whether or not they were targets of the NSA? This is highly classified stuff, and the Administration is not going to surrender the information easily, no matter the court order (especially if it makes them look bad). Just how much wrangling will it take to get from A to B on this — or will they ever get there?
– How many of these cases are there out there? Will this include immigration deportations? All of those "person of interest" detentions without access to counsel that occurred in the months/years following 9/11?
– The FISA law allowed for wiretaps without any warrant whatsoever for 15 days following a catastrophic event. If any of these defendants were identified in that period following 9/11, presumably the information would be admissible in court under the law. But did the wiretap or other surveillance continue without a warrant after that period? If so, why, considering any information obtained within that 15 day grace period would surely have served as substantial probable cause for a FISA warrant? (And what kind of idiot would risk not getting a warrant if they could lawfully do so? I mean, please, paperwork is no excuse.)
– Why in the hell would you be so careless as to risk all of these legal prosecutions — and future ones — by thumbing your nose at FISA, the 4th Amendment, Article II, and the other criminal warrant requirements under the law?
All questions that are going to have to be answered. And this isn’t just a couple of cases — this is going to come up in every single terrorism case that has hit the court system. Every detention. Every conviction. Every plea. Every trial. Every case currently charged. Every single one. Because to not raise this issue in defense of your client would be legal malpractice, and no attorney is going to risk that.
But what about the US Attorneys whose jobs just got exponentially harder? How does the Administration reconcile their illegal tapdance around the FISA laws now that their being caught puts the entire legal front in the war on terror in jeopardy?
And how do you explain that to a US Attorney whose job it is to enforce the laws as they are written, regardless of who the defendant might be — that because you are the President, you get some sort of pass? Nope. Not buying it.
This is what happens when you play fast and loose with the rules. It comes back to smack you right in the ass. And all of us will be paying the price for it: in court costs, in energy that will now have to be expended on this issue rather than on further needed prosecutions (because manpower only stretches so far), on the possibility that a bad actor will be set free because the President of the United States authorized a segment of our government to cheat the law because to follow it was too much work for him.
"It seems to me that it would be relevant to a person’s case," Professor Tobias said. "I would expect the government to say that it is highly sensitive material, but we have legal mechanisms to balance the national security needs with the rights of defendants. I think judges are very conscientious about trying to sort out these issues and balance civil liberties and national security."
The government is required to prove its case — but it must do so without cheating. That the President went on national television and admitted to these wiretaps and said he’d continue doing them the same way — without the FISA approval required by the laws of this nation for this sort of domestic spying — has now called every, single terrorism case into question.
This is what happens when you fail to think things through. This is why we have the rules and laws in the first place. Someone should have explained that to King George and his merry band of cronies.
Consequences are a bitch. And they are about the hit the fan.
UPDATE: Susan Hu has more at Booman discussing the legal implications of "fruit of the poisonous tree" for these cases. Jeralyn has more as well at TalkLeft — good stuff.



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ah … I will have to look for Section Speciale. I have never seen it though Z remains an essential film to me.
And I worry that you are right – they have moved so far outside the accepted civil order already, I cannot imagine them meekly going to jail.
Good to see you here Lupin – I believe we’ve shared comments at the old bar?
The next step(s?) is obvious: more executive fiats to assert control over prosecutions, perhaps Special Courts like in Vichy France — remember Costa Gavras’ SECTION SPECIALE? That’s the future, my friends.
What’s the deal with Republicans and this fetish for spying on Americans?
Quoting Robert Parry from 1997
Spying on Americans
Perhaps even more remarkable, the Reagan administration showed greater respect for Moon’s constitutional rights than those of some U.S. citizens. Starting in 1981, the FBI cooperated with one of Moon’s front groups during a five-year nationwide investigation of the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador (CISPES), a domestic organization critical of Reagan’s policies in Central America, according to FBI documents cited by The Boston Globe. [April 20, 1988]
In 1981, the FBI began collecting reports from Moon’s Collegiate Association for the Research of Principles (CARP) which was spying on CISPES supporters. Those reports came from CARP members at 10 university campuses around the United States and included the purported political beliefs of Reagan’s critics. One CARP report called a CISPES supporter “well-educated in Marxism” while other CARP reports attached “clippings culled from communist-inspired front groups.”
The Globe reported that Frank Varelli, who worked for the FBI from 1981-84 coordinating the CISPES probe, said an FBI agent paid members of the Moon organization at Southern Methodist University while the Moon activists were raiding and disrupting CISPES rallies. “Every week, an agent I worked with used to go to SMU to pay the Moonies,” Varelli said in an interview. Because of the CARP harassment, CISPES closed its SMU chapter.
Moon did not lose his inside track at the White House until Bill Clinton’s election in 1992. But Moon continues to ride high in Washington. Moon sustains The Washington Times despite a never-ending hemorrhage of red ink and he keeps up close political ties with prominent Republicans. Moon’s Washington Times Foundation flashed the cash again recently, with a $1 million-plus donation to George Bush’s presidential library in Texas. [WP, Nov. 24, 1997]
Drudge posted the NYT story about the legal fallout from Bush telling everyone he ordered wiretaps that he knew were illegal.
This is beginning to resemble A FEW GOOD MEN when Jack Nicholson’s character admits that he ordered the “Code Red” after keeping it a secret for the whole movie. Then Jack’s character can’t understand why he is put under arrest.
And for emphasis, let me state that even with the bar lowered by Ashcroft to scrape the bottom of the barrel, the fact the Buseviks still bypassed the FISA warrants is really scary.
Of more contemporary concern is that the Ashcroft rewriting of FISA to allow for the laundering of low proof FISA warrants to higher proof criminal cases is in part to a modification of FISA via the PATRIOT Act.
Since the renewal of the PATRIOT Act is due back for Congressional Action this next month, this particular rewrite of FISA might be something that some Senator or Representative might want to look at.
dcc – Back to EPIC and the 2002 FISA Court Opinion
:::when facing criminal prosecution, a target cannot obtain discovery of the FISA applications and afffidavits supporting the Court’s orders in order to challenge them because the FISA mandates in camera, ex parte review by the district court “if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security.” §1806(f))and §1825(g):::
I haven’t looked up the exact wording of the relevant sections of legislation.
Definitely a must read {and was covered at the time by Slashdot} as well as the FISA Appeals Court ruling {pdf file} overturning the unanimous ruling by the sitting FISC.
All of the debates on 4th Amendment and warrantless wiretaps and concerns about what constitutes poison fruit contaminating the food chain. The appeals court ruling is particularly scary.
“A Christmas Present for Montana” Democratshttp://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2005/12/a_christmas_pre.html
Both John WATB Harris and Richard no impeachment polls Morin must be on vacation. This WaPo article strongly suggests that Abramoff is helping Democrats in the Montana Senate race.
Does anyone actually think that Bush was spying on “terrorists”? There aren’t any cases coming to court because that’s not the point. Just remember Hoover.
TalkLeft has details on 5 cases that are planning appeals due to start filing motions related to Bush’s warrantless NSA surveillance.
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/013526.html
Can someone please expand on Tom’s point regarding “warrants provided via FISA, the supporting documents … are not subject to discovery” and explain why.
that Move Amerika Forward stuff is really making my teeth grind–they’re trying to ‘Swift Boat’ Iraq, using their tried-and-trusted tactic of swarming disinformation.
so we’re supposed to believe that some wingnut blogger went over there on a press junket and somehow managed to find something the CIA, NSA, IAEA, UN Task Force, Army and Marines have all been able to find after almost five years? hmmmm, does this pass the smell test?
“Criminals getting off on technicalities” always plays well among a certain crowd–most of whom, needless to say, are not FDL regulars :)
Professor Foland
Yeah, among those that prefer the LeoStraussian/Maoist Rule of Men over the Jeffersonian Rule of Law. ;)
http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1135519485
^^ What we fight
http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004
^^ What you can do
I should add, that the only optimism I might feel is that the administration is brought under the rule of law—-if this is at a high cost, so be it.
John Casper,
“The worst mistake he ever made was trading Sammy Sosa.”
LOL Check back in a few years about that ; ) And by the way, he never OWNED the Texas Rangers, just revisionist crap…
“After helping with his father’s 1988 presidential campaign, Bush returned to Texas. In March 1989, he became PART owner of the Texas Rangers, buying a 2 PERCENT share for $600,000 in BORROWED money. He became the managing general partner, the front man for the team.”
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004…s/ bush.new.html
Redd,
I’d be interested to know about the mechanics of court cases where this kind of discovery will apply. Will the original judge hear the request? When the administration refuses on security grounds, what is likely to happen? What about the appeals process?
On a related note, it is several weeks after the final deadline for releasing the Abu Ghraib videos. Why has there been a news blackout on this topic?
I see the administration acting with brazen lawlessness and suffering no punishment. How can I be optimistic about the new scenarios you outline?
Frankly as a political issue it’s not clear who benefits from this (clearly inevitable) chain of events. “Criminals getting off on technicalities” always plays well among a certain crowd–most of whom, needless to say, are not FDL regulars :)
The interesting thing is that the existence of warrants provided via FISA, the supporting documents for the issuance of the FISA warrants, and the raw intercepts that do not flow over the wall from intelligence monitoring to the criminal prosecutor are not subject to discovery.
So if the Busheviks had followed procedure and the law, there would be ways to keep the basis for the monitoring a secret to begin with.
Jane, as a former ace pilot, Bush knows something about packing hemorrhoids back in.. you want to try that metaphor? :)
It will be very difficult to get this toothpaste back into the tube.
rwcole — I will be using that he he.
When these cases start hitting the courts- the shit will start hitting the fan–
Some bad guys might get off– but the process is going to call even more attention to Clusterfuck’s criminal behavior-and take the surrounding issues to the courts. It will be very difficult to get this toothpaste back into the tube.
This’ll piss off malkin and her ilk;
http://www.cair-net.org/defaul…..theType=NR
“CAIR Files FOIA Request on Radiation Monitoring of Muslim Sites”
“That the President went on national television and admitted to these wiretaps and said he’d continue doing them the same way — without the FISA approval required by the laws of this nation for this sort of domestic spying — has now called every, single terrorism case into question.”
OT ReddHedd in my opinion your article tonite re-raises the same bright, bright, red flags you raised in an article when Bush proclaimed Delay innocent and tainted his Texas jury pool. It appears that Rove and his political people have so outflanked the AG, Harriet Meiers, the Solicitor General and all the other attorneys in the WH, that they are simply scared of Bush and completely unfaithful to their responsibilities as government employees. From your article tonite it, sounds as though Bush could care less how many problems he creates for the DoJ. In his opinion, that’s their problem. The net net of Bush’s deliberately reckless public statement is that Bush has really set back the “War on Terrorism.” What good is evidence, if it’s inadmissable? Bush wanted to boost his poll numbers. So what if a few hundred U.S. attorneys have to work a little harder, Bush could care less, he’s not a lawyer. The worst mistake he ever made was trading Sammy Sosa. The DoJ is learning what CIA already knows. Working for Bush means telling him what he wants to hear and then when that turns out to be wrong, as it always does, taking the hit for it, when Bush publically excoriates you. Let’s hope the MSM has the courage and sense to report on the legal catastrophe that the Commander and Chief has caused.
Totally OT question, Redd…
If Luskin is no longer Rove’s attorney, wouldn’t a Notice of Substitution of Attorney be filed with the Clerk, advising who Rove’s new counsel is in order for the new attorney to be notified regarding GJ and/or Court matters?
And that was one hell of a column to come home to! Thank you
Damn you west-coast bloggers, keeping me up till all hours of the night.
.
off topic
WSJ:
Move America Forward Ads Aim to Lift Bush’s Approval Rating by Backing WMD Claims.
Ads say newly found Iraqi documents show that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction, including anthrax and mustard gas, and had “extensive ties” to al Qaeda.
The discoveries are being covered up by those “willing to undermine support for the war on terrorism to selfishly advance their shameless political ambitions.”
Gee, I wonder who they mean??
MAF’s co-chairman Melanie Morgan, a conservative San Francisco radio host,
‘discovered’ the documents while she was in Iraq on a propaganda tour. Amazing that the Bush spin machine wouldn’t have those documents front and center at every opportunity.
This group is tax free, run by republicans and makes sure it has no direct ties to the GOP. Russo, their chief strategist, has financial ties to the Kurdish regional government in northern Iraq.
Unbeleivable balls! They seem to be getting away with it. They even want to run a couple of their members for office. I would love to see their donors list.
http://online.wsj.com/public/a…..d=rss_free
Wilson, the ham sandwich is now being offered to Americans in exchange for their Constitutional rights!
One of the unintended ironies presented is that the strongest cases for judicial reiew will be the two defendants whom the Bush regime has bragged were snared beause of FISA-less snooping.
polotuama — exactly.
polotuama,
“Pride goeth before a fall . One of the unintended ironies presented is that the strongest cases for judicial reiew will be the two defendants whom the Bush regime has bragged were snared beause of FISA-less snooping. While others might have substantial barriers to establish standing, in at least two instances the Busheviks have already conceeded that warrantless intrusions led to the initiation of the cases.”
Three words come to mind…stupid, reckless, incompetent. Even the Federalist Society (it looks like) wants no part of this.
everybody has heard the crack about how a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich … some wag observed that seemingly the FISA court would approve wiretapping a ham sandwich
Over and above all the cases that will be affected and presumably publicized by this, we have yet to get information on who else was being eavesdropped on. Which politicians, prosecutors or pressmen?
Once the names start coming out, I think there’s going to be even more public reaction, and from people who might not now be too upset that “bad guys” had their rights trampled on, because that will bring home to the general public what this administration has been doing. I hope.
that’s a great read, Redd, and your perspective is invaluable. unfortunately, the wingnuts will twist this into ‘those liberal attorneys are tying our hands so we can’t effectively fight terrorism!’
also, forgotten in this whole affair is the intel community debate of a few years ago, which was basically ‘technology vs. boots on the ground’–my understanding of this debate was that ‘live’ agents are invaluable, and that techonology is a supplement, not a substitute: 9-11 was not a failure of technology, but of human error–does anybody remember FBI agent Colleen Rowley? How about ‘Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US?’
it’s just stupidity and laziness that there are people in this country who would trade
their Constitutional rights for a ham sandwich–as far as i’m concerned, the Constitution is the foundation of America, so let’s call a spade a spade, these people are clearly Unamerican!
Pride goeth before a fall . One of the unintended ironies presented is that the strongest cases for judicial reiew will be the two defendants whom the Bush regime has bragged were snared beause of FISA-less snooping. While others might have substantial barriers to establish standing, in at least two instances the Busheviks have already conceeded that warrantless intrusions led to the initiation of the cases.
p.lukasiak:
my thoughts exactly. Seems like these wiretaps have produced pretty slim pickings. One guy who was going to blow torch a bridge to kingdom come, and a fellow who was “inciting” people more or less in general but no specific plot that I’ve read about. And if there were a lot of leads they were following, what’s with all the attention given to UN diplomats, etc.
Anyone have a count of the cases currently affected?
Wilson — I think that was me saying they took it as a “how to” instead of a cautionary tale. But then, it was from a post during the holidays, so you could mean someone else. ;-)
p.luk — well, for starters, there were nine Yemeni immigrants who had US citizenship and lived in the Buffalo area that I can recall from the last year or so; a bunch of people from the Virginia mosque referenced in the NYtimes article — and that’s just for starters. A lot of these cases haven’t been in the papers as big, splashy headlines, because the pleas weren’t for substantial sentences. But there have been a lot of them over the last four + years. And defense counsel in every one of those cases will raise this as a habeas issue for those already convicted — because it would be malpractice not to do so. And the same is true for all those cases still pending. Including for those people who may still yet be held without charges.
some wag observed that ‘1984′ is a novel although Bush/Cheney thought it was an operating manual…
although I sympathize with Redd’s point, I don’t think that the impact will be as severe as she suggests.
The decision to throw out someone who was here illegally may have been based on the illegal wiretaps — but the case itself would have been based on the simple fact that the person was in the US illegally. And once they’ve been deported, they really don’t have much standing in US courts from what I understand.
And Bushco hasn’t exactly been aggressive about bringing criminal charges against suspected terrorists — so the number of actual cases that could potentially be affected by the illegal NSA wiretaps is pretty small.
So maybe Padillo will be released, and the guy who wanted to melt the Brooklyn Bridge with a zippo lighter will wind up in a home for the criminally insane instead of a regular prison… but who else is gonna go free?
Redd – as a non-lawyer that was my read as well since the FISA law seems to be allowing for urgency without precluding proper oversight but I was curious.
ps- did you hear the Keith O mention of the Oakland Tribune’s request for readers to donate enough copies of _1984_ for each member of congress? touche!
awesome post Redd. As the recent decisions by Jones III and Luttig indicate, the Article III crowd in its entirety is way past the point of being conscientious and is downright pissed. hopefully this branch of government will have the temerity to hold the preznit to his proofs.
One thing America has going for it: we may be going on our Fourth Republic (the first one, the civil war one, the post-1929 one, and the spinning vortex that’s upon us), but legal codes and processes rest on the same marble statutes as ever, and are very difficult to trump with executive privilege. I’m no legal scholar, but I can’t think of a better punishment for Bushco types than getting sued for the rest of their lives. Far better than capital punishment.
Wilson — yep. And aren’t those folks and their attorneys going to wonder now just how they were targeted in the first place? I sure would, if I were representing someone under the current circumstances. But I’m not an immigration attorney, so I don’t know the possibilities for challenging a deportation under these facts. Maybe someone who reads hear and has that legal background can fill us in — it’s rather convoluted law, and not something I’ve ever delved into at length.
a lot of ‘terrorist’ deportations were done using other charges such as overstaying visas, jaywalking, tearing labels off mattresses, etc…
Siun — You still have to report it to the FISA court is my read of the law. But national security matters were not my specialty for my practice, so I ought to go back and re-read that section again before I say that with any definite tone in my typing. But my understanding was that you could get approval after the fact in those cases — due to emergency circumstances.
Why can’t Bush just say 9/11 three times and sentence all of the defendents to death?
Yeow Redd! great post!
A legal mini-question: under FISA, you can wiretap for 72 hours (or 15 days in catastrophic event) – if you stop the tap within those time limits, do you still need to report it to the FISA court or is it moot?
Also, does anyone have a sense of how many “terrorism” cases there are outside of the deportation cases? and does anyone have a figure for the number of deportations that took place?
FITZ!
RasPetros is right. In visiting Rigorous Intuition, a month ago people started asking if the Bush Crime Family and their backer and the horrific evil is maybe a backwards way to God – overwhelmed by the sheer and pointless evil started quoting passages from the Bible for protection esp. the Psalms.
It is important to try to fight with emails, letter, petitions, demonstrations/prayer vigals and learning the truth, supporting the very courageous whistleblowers but ultimately it is a deep spiritual warfare that is going on and the whole armor of God is the place to start everyday.
The Cyberhymnal is also a good way of easier understanding of Bible passages and the promises from people of deep faith through the centuries and the music is also helpful and calming “Singing is like praying twice at the same time”.
Then there’s the possibility the Bush administration wants these cases to tank.
Why?
Perhaps as an example to their own why the rule of law is less preferable than a theocratic corporate feudalism.
Or maybe because there is no blank check without endless war, and releasing some of these individuals is the best war possible to ensure more terror.
Clare!
Thanks for replying. I realize that you don’t agree that any domestic (or foreign) attacks were thwarted because of these warrantless searches. That’s fine, that’s what you believe, but once again you proceed from an assumption that is not proven. We do not know how many attacks may have been stopped, we do not even know who was tapped! And yet you, somehow, already know that this tactic hasn’t stopped anything. Amazing! You must be a mindreader, or omnipotent, or possess some superhuman power of which I am unaware. But you know what happens when you assume …
I refer you once again to the time-tested axiom: all politics are local. Obviously you feel that the democratic strategy of trying to paint all repubs guilty by association will work. I continue to feel that most Americans, when it comes time to vote, will not act in such an un-American way. They will continue to support those politicians who bring the bacon home to their district and will punish those who commit illegal acts – as it should be.
Cozumel:
I have already read the PDF to which you pointed and I believe that many of the points made by Rivkin do indeed support my position. You did read the entire thing didn’t you? The last five questions should be read as support for my viewpoint. If we are to be honest, we must admit that there are solid arguments made on both sides of this issue and not pretend that the law in this area is a settled matter. The fact that constitutional scholars on all sides of the political spectrum disagree about this is proof enough of that.
Appreciate the opportunity to dialogue.
Mute Piggy,
Obviously I disagree with you, but let me push this a bit further.
If we restrict war strictly to nation states (and the United States was in many ways the world’s first modern nation-state), we’re giving extra-governmental organizations a free pass. They can do whatever they like and expect to be treated as a group of individuals rather than as the organized enemy they are.
At some point an individual’s rights don’t matter… that is when they give their loyalty to a nation-state’s army they become legitimate targets. When they give themselves over to a non-governmental army, I believe they’re legitimate targets as well.
Of course this isn’t perfectly analogous to ancient tribal warfare, and in that sense I believe it to be historically novel.
But here’s the ultimate problem: Modern weapons (whether designed as such — nuclear bombs — or improvised — jet airliners) have become so destructive that making distinctions about who wields them before stopping their use is almost infinitely dangerous. If there’s a group planning to detonate a nuke in Greenwich Village, I want our government to annihilate them before they do so. Whether they’re attached to another government or not.
Yeah, this all runs up against the Constitution. And as someone who dearly loves every contour of that 18th century document, it bothers me. But I don’t know how we proceed otherwise considering the threats the come with the 21st century and don’t seem likely to go away.
Cozumel.
I was pleasantly surprised when I read through Fed. Society papers – I was expecting A. BS and 2. Constitutional arcana – I actually was able to follow their points and it sure didn’t sound like they were backing Chimpy’s NSA play .
Jerry,
I have no issue with a “guilty” person going free if in fact evidence was tainted/illegal.
I don’t agree these taps have thwarted anything domestically – if you are referencing the Brooklyn Bridge – you do know they planned to do it with cutting torches, right ? You don’t believe Nora O’Donnell or others when they say the plan was to blow it up ? The only documented terrorist attack thwarted was William Jefferson Clinton and Janet Reno, and something tells me the FISA court was involved.
Why do I think WH will stonewall revealing either names or results ? Oh I dunno, 5 years of stonewalling on everything maybe.
As to my concerns about delaying gambits, I was pretty clear above.
But it does tie in w/your comments about politics as personal – Abramhoff and his associates, Scanlon, Kidan, and maybe Safavian will be dropping dimes on lots of Congressmen and by November, only the most kool aid addled will see it as anything but a corrupt Repub. congress – thereby removing a linchpin/keystone in the Admin.’s
ongoing assault our country.
Jerry,
http://www.fed-soc.org/pdf/dom…..llance.pdf
Enjoy!
Clare: Thanks for posting in reply, you crazy, tin foil hat nut!
You’re concerned that defense lawyers will use this as a delaying tactic … why? Is it because you think the tactic itself is unfair? Even supporters of this ‘illegal’ program believe that anyone who was convicted using illegal evidence should be permitted this tactic. Are you concerned that a guilty person might go free? Even I believe someone who is convicted with illegal evidence should be freed. So I don’t quite follow your problem with delaying gambits. So what if a case goes on for several years – that’s the way we want our system to work.
If the admin chooses to not divulge who was tapped, for whatever reason, then a guilty collaborator might go free. If we used illegal evidence, they should go free. You donÂ’t think the Admin will provide a list of those who were tapped. What leads you to this conclusion? So long as the information would be presented to a judge who would keep the material confidential, I donÂ’t see any reason the Admin would not provide it to the judge, other than concerns about silly old national security and leakers. But still, hereÂ’s another big assumption about something that hasnÂ’t happened yet one way or the other, and your conclusion proceeds from this assumption. (They wonÂ’t reveal, therefore there will be interminable delays.)
I would only be upset about the following scenario: The Feds could have gotten a FISA warrant, and could have used the evidence obtained to convict someone. Because they went around FISA, but still tried to use the evidence obtained in court, the ‘collaborator’ is set free. Let’s stop hyperventilating and imagining and see if this actually happens. We already know that the taps were used to successfully thwart attacks here and abroad, so the balance is weighing heavily in favor of the taps even if one or two nasties get off.
Re Abramoff and Mehlman: IÂ’m one of those idiots who feel that all politics are local. I wonÂ’t be voting against Dana Rohrbacher in Huntington Beach, CA because Conrad Burns took an illegal campaign contribution from some Indian tribe in Montana. Do you really think that ordinary folks think that way? Most folks kind of believe in the old Innocent until Proven Guilty line and that other one about guilt by association. AinÂ’t gonna fly, the public already trusts the Pres more than Congress.
“…to say that wars are between states goes against history. Wars after all, occured long before there were modern nation states.
While there’s a tendency to see the “War On Terror” as something unprecedented it strikes me as something sort of ancient: a tribal war. We happen to be the tribe with a nation state. But it’s a war just the same.”
i think you posted some thoughtful questions, John Pearly Huffman, but i must respectfully note that this particular argument is silly rubbish. what did or did not occurr in ancient tribal wars before “modern nation states” were conceived is irrelevant, because now we DO have modern nation states, with documents remind us that we, as humans, have inalienable rights that our governing body may not intrude upon. it seems people are okay with temorary suspensions of some of these rights during states of emergency- such as your examples. “terror” is a vague concept that is not going to go away, ever (somebody recently had a great piece on this- anyone remember?).
even the cold war was about Russia. we treaded a fine line with that one, too- what with the “dirty commie” labelling.
the use of the term “war on terror” is nothing more than the deliberate strategy for keeping americans 1) terrified, 2) obedient, 3) and permanently at war. you can thank cheney and the rest of the intensely scary Project for the New American Century for thinking up that one.
governments have always spied on and lied to their citizens- that doesn’t make it okay.
Illegal evidence that is used to then aquire additional evidence which is then used to seek a search warrant should cause the whole indictment to fall apart. The prosecutor would then have to show that they would have found the information that led to the search warrant through legal means.
In theory at least, that is the process. It has been my experience in practice that there is always and exception or addendum when the defendant is accused and convicted of a particulary heinious crime. If we were talking about a conviction for a minor league low profile felony, or if the defendant was a cop, or prominent Conservative icon, then the case law will be very expansive of the 4th amendment.
After eight years of Reagan appointments, four years of Bush I, four years of clinton (no respite there) and now five years of Bush II, I hold little faith in the judicial system of this country to slap down such an over reach by the president. As evidence, all i need look to is the Jose Padilla and the Hamdi cases. Does anyone actually beleive that twenty five years ago the courts would have countenanced such a breach of the constitution? And now, all they do is sidestep to avoid handing the administration a legal defeat.
The unspoken question here is, “What would Bush do if the court rules against him?” My fear, and I beleive it is valid, is that he would provoke a crisis in government by denying the court had any jurisdiction over him because of the separation of powers clause in the constitution. Marbury v. Madison has stood for two hundred years, and Bush (and Cheney) is just the kind of meglomaniac that they would undo it all.
Welcome to the imperial presidency.
Jerry,
non lawyer paranoids like me are exercising our imaginations, but we’re not presently concerned with overturning convictions – we’re concerned this entire mess could be used as a delay gambit for Federal defendants – emphasis on gambit
Defense attys could argue their clients we’re initially targeted as a by product of the spying – the Prosecutors respond with No! – the defense attorney shoots back “Prove It!”
And because
the sweeps were broad and unfocused in nature
the POTUS admitted doing it
the WH will stonewall this ad nauseum
and there won’t be any immediate proof against the Defense attys claim, some judge, somewhere under concern about ‘discovery’ – will allow delays while the haggling ensues
Further and more pointedly, there is a small army of us out here who’ve been waiting 2+ years to see the Abramoff Circus unfold nightly on MSM – tell me, if you we’re Ken Mehlman and the other powers that be in the RNC – and you saw a way to keep Republican Congressional Scandals out of the headlines throughout the 06 election cycle – what would you do ?
yours in the tin foil,
Guess I am coming late to this comment string, but I wondered if someone could clarify. A poster, or two, has said, “The obvious counter-argument here is that the point of the wire taps isn’t to build legal cases but to stop terrorist actions and prosecute a war.”
I haven’t read anything from the ‘other’ side that refutes this statement.
The information obtained from these ‘illegal’ wiretaps cannot be used in a criminal case. We all agree about that, including the Pres and Atty Gen and Dir of NSA who have all stated that the info has not been used to obtain convictions but only to prevent attacks.
I am not sure that I understand the kerfluffle here. There will be a hunch of defendants/convicts claiming that their convictions should be overturned because they were illegally wiretapped. The Prosecutor will say no, we didn’t use any info from these wiretaps to obtain your conviction. In fact, we don’t even know if you were tapped because the information is classified. The Feds/NSA will say that nothing from an ‘illegal’ wiretap was given to prosecutors to use as evidence to convict you, and further, we aren’t even going to tell you if you were wiretapped in the first place.
Posters from the left are proceeding from the presumption that evidence obtained in an illegal wiretap was used to convict. No one has said this is the case, and there is no evidence, that I am aware of, to the contrary.
Won’t the onus be on the defense to show that information from ‘illegal’ wiretaps was used to convict? Is there any evidence out there, at all, that shows that ‘illegal’ wiretap evidence was used to convict anyone? Isn’t someone taking a giant leap here in assuming that the taps were used in criminal cases?
Are prosecutors obligated to reveal classified information (”your client was wiretapped by the NSA”)? Would they be breaking the law if they were to do so? Would they be obligated to tell a defendant that he/she was wiretapped even if no information culled from the tap was used to convict? Would it even matter if a defendant was wiretapped if that info wasn’t presented in court? Does anyone out there have any evidence at all to support some idea that info from these ‘illegal’ taps was used in court? Or are we just exercising our imaginations?
One other point that I think needs to be made. Let’s suppose that some prosecutor out there did use evidence from one of these taps to convict. And let’s suppose that the terrorist is then set free. Do you think folks out there in TV land are going to be upset with ‘Republicans’ who illegally wiretapped to try and protect them, or will they be upset with ‘liberals’ who leaked the classified info that led directly to overturning a terrorist’s conviction because of a ‘technicality’?
leftahead,
My brain is soft from so many things. But to say that wars are between states goes against history. Wars after all, occured long before there were modern nation states.
While there’s a tendency to see the “War On Terror” as something unprecedented it strikes me as something sort of ancient: a tribal war. We happen to be the tribe with a nation state. But it’s a war just the same.
dahveed,
“please, oh please spell al-qaeda correctly!! redd, i love you to death, but it drives me nuts when you throw the “U” in there…..”
Actually, the common official accepted spelling these days is “al-Qa’ida”
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pr…..103004.htm
John Pearley Huffman, to answer your last question, no, we are technically *not* at war–a war is between nations (see all of your examples), not against amorphous, undefinable, stateless enemies.
Perhaps your brain has been softened up by all the propaganda, and the misuse of the term ‘war’ to include such things as the ‘War on Drugs’ and ‘War on Christmas.’
Sorry, it was the Observer, not the Guardian.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpo…..MlJVRPUCUl
please, oh please spell al-qaeda correctly!! redd, i love you to death, but it drives me nuts when you throw the “U” in there…..
Cozumel,
Thanks for the response – again I appreciate the patience of those more versed in legal matters.
Seeing Redd’s post on the NYT story – I had a gut reaction of NSA as some rather large rock being dropped in to the pond that is the Fed Judiciary, and today’s disclosures may only be the first in ripple after ripple.
Thanks again
Thanks for the post.
My gut feeling is that the lack of concern over the legal fallout is because no one in the administration ever had any intention of using the results of the wiretapping in any kind of legal proceeding. I think that some hints of their intended uses can be found in the adminstration’s refusal to turn NSA wiretaps over to the Senate during the Bolton confirmation hearings and the revelations (mostly in the Guardian, sorry no link) about the use of wiretaps to spy on the swing votes on the U.N. Security Council during the run up to the Iraq War. In addition, there are “enemy combatants” being held without charges both here and abroad. I don’t believe that the wiretaps the President authorized ever had anything to do with the legal system.
It wasn’t a joke when Bush said, “There’s nothing wrong with a dictatorship, as long as I’m the dictator.” Warrants? We don’t need no stinkin’ warrants!
Let’s not forget the Supreme Court. Some of these cases inevitably will end up there.
http://greyhairsblog.blogspot……-wave.html
clare boothe lucid,
“Abramoff Atty:”the initial targeting of my client was a by product of illegal NSA activity- therefore any evidence against him, including the subsequent wiretaps entered in evidence are inadmissible”
I suppose the above might indicate NO DEAL for a reduced sentence although I think it’s without merit.
Cozumel,
Thanks for the response, I came in and got that 2nd cup.
Yes, the Feds specifically targeted dear Jack in his case, but -
because the sweeps were so vast and undefined, I’m concerned it opens door, hell it swings the door off it’s hinges for discovery-as-delay tactics e.g. -
Abramoff Atty:”the initial targeting of my client was a by product of illegal NSA activity- therefore any evidence against him, including the subsequent wiretaps entered in evidence are inadmissible”
Timing is my specific concern about Abramoff – the mere thought of anything keeping him off the MSM through the 06 election cycle is beyond gut wrenching – and the WH has presented the Judiciary with such broad questions, some judges somewhere are going to allow delays
I truly appreciate the patience of the legal eagles here, most of the time I know if we non lawyers knew how to frame the question, we’d know the answer. But again, I refer to the broad nature of the legal problems presented combined with an army of WH lawyers legally stonewalling.
Thanks again
Why would they take the risk?
They just wanted to catch the “terrorists” so they could hold them up as “political capital.” Anybody who wasn’t a big enough “catch” wouldn’t be released, however.
As we know the illegal data mining, which was obviously used to get the FISA approved taps was a large scale “fishing expedition”, (which BTW is not even allowed in civil cases for simple discovery of corporate documents) in contridiction to the constitutional right to privavy and due process and the 4th amendment in criminal matters. However to continuing the fishing analogy, this was no “catch and release” program. The ones that didn’t “make the slot” don’t get thrown back. They are just sent to the black sites. They are tortured to make double sure they don’t know anything, or just to get a coerced confession to prove their terrorist bone fides. Finally they are taken out an executed. (my cynical belief).
Don’t tell me that people seriously believe that this administration paused or reined back at that line and didn’t just barrel across it. It makes me sick that I have come to think this about my country. But there it is. I am not naive I know our government has been involved in assisination and all that “mission impossible” Tom Clancey fantasy stuff to some degree or another, but this admistration is “Big Brother” they just haven’t been able to close the whole deal yet.
I don’t know when but I believe that we will find mass graves associated to those black sites one day.
I see somebody else above posted a link already, but I’m keeping a repository of links to blog posts and news stories on this topic. You can access it at my blog, Kierkegaard Lives. The direct link is HERE. I’m updating at least daily for now, usually more than once a day.
Thanks for the link.
The obvious counter-argument here is that the point of the wire taps isn’t to build legal cases but to stop terrorist actions and prosecute a war.
If we’re “at war” with terrorists we’re not trying to throw them in jail, we’re trying to defeat them. That means killing them without due process; containing them without consideration of any inherent rights our enemies may (or may not) have; and destroying them rather than trying to persuade them.
If we are at war and have citizens communicating with the enemy, those citizens are traitors and need to be rooted out. That’s been the policy of every president during every war this country has fought.
The greatest violence done to the Constitution in this country has always come during war time — Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War and the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II being the two most obvious examples. The domestic spying operations during World War II were vast — certainly more intrusive than the current NSA efforts. Lincoln forceably expelled Confederate sympathizers from the Union. Hell, Johnson and Nixon hardly shied away from domestic spying during the Vietnam era too.
War is an ugly thing and it’s always been and, many contend, must be fought at the expense of other considerations. Sometimes that expense has been justifiable, sometimes not. But victory is the only measure of success or failure; not whether we win while respecting rights. There are no style points.
The Bush adminstration contends that we’re at war and this spying is to feed that effort, not necessarily get criminal convictions. That the U.S. Attorneys’ jobs get harder — even exponentially harder — is insignificant if the U.S. military’s job gets easier and victory grows closer.
Are we at war? Or not?
Kick-ass post!
The “America in a fog” metaphor has already been seen. In a story about Reagan which was shown on t.v. recently there was a bill he was to sign into law and so they went to his western home. On the day of the signing the entire area was fogged in: a sign from God no doubt.
Now we have the blistering Hellish heat of Crawford Texas as a metaphor for the nation’s health. Scary, eh?
Reddhedd, I am glad you are handling all the heavy lifting on this. Bubble Times continue in Crawford.
Are we agreeing, then, to give the king unfettered privilege to defy the law forever?
The answer is ‘yes’ right up until the answer is ‘no’.
The moment — and I don’t think anyone living today will ever see it — a non-Republican occupies the White House, such unfettered privilege will end in a heartbeat.
We’re dealing with Leninists.
The state existst to serve the Party, because of its vanguard role in the Revolution — the Party most assuredly does not exist to provide government on those occasions when it enjoys temporary electoral success.
My contacts with the legal system are limited to a divorce and jury duty. But, I still learned one lesson; hire the best lawyer you canÂ’t afford.
The legal system wonÂ’t be any hindrance to the prosecution of any Muslim Americans that arenÂ’t rendered overseas. Ahmed Abu Ali, of Falls Church, Va was convicted for conspiring with Al Qaida operatives to assassinate President George W. Bush. John Walker Lindh was sentenced to 20 years for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
As long as the lapdog media keeps repeating “a history of blowing up trains, weddings and churches”, the court system will happily keep expanding the prison population.
When the Holy War finally comes to American homeland, along with the draft, the Neo-Inquisition will dispense with any legal nitpicking hindrances to keep American safe for Christians.
clare boothe lucid,
I would think it’s HIGHLY unlikely Abramoff is part of the NSA illegal wire taps. The Feds knew who they were going after in this instance.
new thread
this is aid and comfort to the enemy. The adminicosanostra has acted to assist terror suspects in their right to a fair trial. Oh the irony.
the bandini flows thusly from the ventilator
“So, if Abramoff was illegally tapped, does the DOJ’s case against him go out the window as well as that of the others implicated? Opinion?”
orangejumpsuit
Morning All,
Great question ! I hadn’t gone there yet. Some of you will find it far fetched.
Have read Redd’s post twice (first cup) and I didn’t see implications for this – but what a great stall tactic this NSA stuff could be for almost any Fed. defendant – defense attys could argue for years about ‘discovery issues” – it’s not like WH will play ball and disclose anything, even in the face of court orders to comply, they’ll simply get Yoo or some other tool to proffer some other BS argument about ‘inherent power’ blah blah blah
Okay, back to the present – has Abramoff made his deal ? can his atty now whelch on said deal in light of ‘recent WH disclosures’ ?
Most of the regulars here know I am an ‘Abramoff Zombie’ and extremely suspicious as to why WH ever admitted to spying in the first place (an obvious break from their MO of stonewalling everything the last 5 years)
Did they make the admission simply to provide a Get Out of Jail Free card for the likes of Abramoff, Lay, Skilling, and gulp, now Scooter Libby ?!?!?
AAGGHH! Someone please, talk me off of this ledge
Who would have remembered Patrick Henry had he written, “What’s wrong with giving up a little liberty if it protects me from death?”
(from the Miami Herald column, Fear destroys what bin Laden could not)
And this, from the same column, is surely the key:
Bush would have us excuse his administration’s excesses in deference to the ”war on terror” — a war, it should be pointed out, that can never end. Terrorism is a tactic, an eventuality, not an opposition army or rogue nation. If we caught every person guilty of a terrorist act, we still wouldn’t know where tomorrow’s first-time terrorist will strike. Fighting terrorism is a bit like fighting infection — even when it’s beaten, you must continue the fight or it will strike again.
Are we agreeing, then, to give the king unfettered privilege to defy the law forever? It’s time for every member of Congress to weigh in: Do they believe the president is above the law, or bound by it?
What’s this toothpaste doing in my ham sandwich? Wait, there’s a wire here, too …
So aside from all the legal detail here, bushco has openly blown its legitimacy.
Considering how it was installed, on 12.12.2000, extra-constitutionally, by the Supreme Court, it didn’ t have much legitimay to blow.
I am amazed at the ruling junta treating the branch of government that installed it in such a high-handed way.
No sense of gratitude…
Redd:
That the President went on national television and admitted to these wiretaps and said he’d continue doing them the same way –. . .
This is what happens when you fail to think things through.
Yeah, who failed to think through the idiocy of admitting all this on national TV?
;-)
/
Ephisians 6:12 – For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers fo darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the hevenly realms. This means that fight is a spiritual fight and so we need God’s protection and His help. We need to put on daily the armour of God which He has given to us for protection.
haven’t seen any mention of this, but how about the US telcos and ISPs who said “hey, no problem, go right ahead” to the Feds? No court order, no problem! You want to tap *everyone?* Hey, why not?
And is there any tort or contract action there? Unfortunately, it is difficult to quantify damages to make a suit feasible.
The only people who stand behind Hillary for pres are the republican party.
Not sure whether this has been posted, as it’s now impossible to read every Haloscan comment with the snow falling outside and the ski trails calling softly 0- no, LOUDLY.
But this repository of links to all materials on the domestic spying is invaluable:
http://imkierkegaard.blogspot……itory.html
and for future non-click reference, that is these two combined:
http://imkierkegaard.blogspot.com/
plus:
2005/12/wire-tapping-link-repository.html
Hillary will not be president. Her posturing is not stupid- but she will never be elected- she will not be the dem candidate-
aquart:
Bush casts himself as the Commander in Chief. That is the role he is playing. He appears almost exclusively before military audiences who cheer every syllable.
The military hates his guts? Please recall that it was the military that tried to assassinate Hitler.
I think the defining element in Bush’s military dictatorship is the destruction of the Constitution. The United States is a constitutional democracy. If you tear up the Constitution, then it’s no longer a democracy. And the Constitution has been successfully torn up.
You say people still care? The editorial board at Barron’s? What about the Democratic Party? What about the major news organizations? The is no opposition in the United States.
Let’s take Hilary Clinton as an example. She recently wrote her constituents a letter basically saying, “Look I was tricked into voting for the war and when AIPAC says I can do anything about it, I will.”
That’s the leading Presidential candidate of the Democratic Party. That’s the Democratic “leader” who will be elected in a landslide in “liberal” New York. Who has beaten silly everyone she has run against. That’s our hope. Or maybe you can come up with someone else.
I haven’t seen any mention of this, but how about the US telcos and ISPs who said “hey, no problem, go right ahead” to the Feds? No court order, no problem! You want to tap *everyone?* Hey, why not?
How’s this for a short film:
Small american town–filled with sunshine
Voice over with Clusterfuck/Cheney speeches- as the speeches progress in dishonesty and misrepresentation–fog gradually fills the streets of the pristine little town- at the end of the movie- you can’t see your hand in front of your face!
Thanks for the great post, Redd. It lays out all the ramifications of the Administration’s warrant-less snooping in a concise way to us non-legal types. If only the MSM would lay out the issues involved as clearly as you do.
“Fascism moves in on little cat feet”
With apologies to Carl Sandburg.
Gossip picked up on TalkLeft. Bracketed comment is mine.
“My understanding is that Jack Abramoff is also looking at this [unwarranted domestic wiretapping] as an angle tonight.”
So, if Abramoff was illegally tapped, does the DOJ’s case against him go out the window as well as that of the others implicated? Opinion?
Acquart: “Can’t be done in a day. UNLESS…Bush tries to move militarily within the United States. Then, I honestly believe, someone in our government will simply arrest him.”
Didn’t Bush suggest during the Katrina period that federal troops could take over control to assure safety, etc? Once the principle was accepted as necessary, it could be applied wrt to terror threats, etc. But there are laws, I believe, dating from Civil War reconstruction, that limit this.
Obviously I jumped in to comment before reading the link. Oops.
Going for more coffee now. ;)
A new thought.
Identity theft is not about thieves wanting to use your credit card, except in a minority of cases.
Identiy theft is about the government collecting an avalanche of personal information about you and your family.
Per WaPo 57 million people had their I.D. info stolen in 2005. SAIC several thousand former military and intelligence folks. Choice Point several thousand people. Mastercard 40 million people. Mariott just announced a quarter of a million people. Others unknown? At this rate data from everyone in the U.S. will be harvested within a five year period, if it isn’t already.
So the next time you read about identity theft, think about who REALLY wants this information.
Have a delightful day!
Spence eh—couldn’t be a better guy to blow this house of cards down–go get em Gerry!
loci — Gerry Spence is quoted in the NYTimes article saying that he is already considering how to best move on this information on behalf of his client, and that he is aghast at the government’s actions. It could definitely get interesting from here forward.
Hey Redd, how about the lawsuit Brandon Mayfield has filed against the FBI? He’s the Oregon atty held for several weeks after his fingerprints were mistakenly identified in the Madrid train bombing.
http://www.ord.uscourts.gov/Mayfield/mayfield.htm
http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/5053007/
There were sneak & peek searches, but what if there was eavesdropping too?
Gerry Spence is his lawyer, heh, heh. Should be an interesting trial, if it goes to court.
Great post, and very troubling, Redd,
One can now make sense of everything Bush does. Surely ??? his attorneys would have told him that sooner of later the fact of secret surveillance could get out and once it was out, all of the complications you explain for trying and convicting those monitored would arise. If not, this is more evidence oflegal/ethical malpractice by the Bush attorneys. (Mine was the first law school class — 1975 –that had to take an “ethics” exam to pass the Bar in California — a result of the misconduct by Nixon lawyers.)
But let’s assume they did warn their client, the Prez. They would have known that convictions were unlikely, but they have all these “bad guys.” Solution? Avoid the legal system altogether. Kidnap people and hold them in secret locations; if there is risk of being found out, render them out of the country, like Gitmo. Fight the application of habeas corpus to the death. And if it’s challenged, pretend you’re returning them to the “legal” system a la Padilla. It all makes perfect, logical sense.
Once they started acting outside the law, everything that followed had to be outside the law. They were trapped. It’s just another coverup.
John Casper: “The net net of Bush’s deliberately reckless public statement is that Bush has really set back the ‘War on Terrorism.’” Not just the statements; the actions. And this is how the Dems can attack Bush without appearing soft on terror.
So aside from all the legal detail here, bushco has openly blown its legitimacy. The only power it can retain is that of force, and it is apparent that many are now questioning the chain of command.
Scary is right; they have thown down the gauntlet: “we are tearing up the constitution and there’s nothing you can do about it.”
I get a personal satisfaction from this because the alternative is a longer slower disintegration of rights and law etc., whereas now due to the dub’s desperation we are offered the opportunity to tear it all down and start over.
I am afraid that the dub and his minions will be taken out (not up to the job) and slimier stealthier actors will be put in to finish off the destruction. The Bill Clinton presidency is an example of this tactic.
Note that Bush is a CEO with an MBA, not a lawyer. Nuff said.
Redd, this is an incredible article. Again and again we see that Bush just can’t help fucking up everything he touches. I can just see his face at the next briefing, all Halloween orange and chimney red.
Oh please, please let Condoleeza M.C. Rice be in the middle of all this.
sonate,
Absolutely right on! We now know how the non-fascist population of Weimar Germany must have felt when they woke up in 1933 to Chancelor Hitler. Sinclair Lewis wrote a book in the 1930’s entitled “It Can’t Happen Here”…but of course it has happened here. It is time for the whimps in BOTH parties ta start usin’ the Nazi comparisons. And we must stop callin ‘em neocons and start callin ‘em fascists.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!!
Great Post- Thanks
While it may be simplistic in its approach , do you think that perhaps the President was going after vengeance and not justice?
I think the President is not interested in justice at all. For everyone to argue about whether he followed a specific law or not is irrelevant. Bush, et al, is out for revenge and noting will stand in the way. The Bush vigilantes are getting a lot of bad guys and they do not care if there is relationship between them and Alqaeda. They created an enemies list and are after them in a gustatorial fashion.
Can anyone argue differently?
ReddHedd, thank you so much for this fabulously long and totally, wonderfully involved post. Keep teaching us, nkay?
You are da stuff!
ReddHedd:
This is a scary post (although very informative). I can’t believe that Shrub’s DOJ operatives didn’t put this into their calculations. The NSA spying isn’t a “fuckup.” It is (to borrow a phrase from Gene McCarthy) “a forward fumble.”
Because, as you say, “judges going to find a way to uphold the convictions (especially where you did have overwhelming evidence of a bad actor, which is highly possible, given the fact that this is al quaeda we are talking about).” And we will have just taken another step away from constitutional government toward an imperial presidency.
This gang is not incompetent. They are EVIL. And I don’t think that it is hyperbole to make comparisons of this group with Nazi Germany in the months before the purges began.
Arbogast: what military dictatorship? George has a military leadership that seems to hate his guts and an army that is bleeding soldiers. How exactly do you see that force taking and holding a nation this size?
Then, factor in state governors who will decide NOT to go along with usurpation of, among others, their powers.
Is Georgie trying for it? Does he see himself is the purple, gold, red, white, and blue robes of the American emperor? Sure he does. But, like every other damn thing he does, it’s a bloody, stinking, filthy, expensive mess.
This might shock you, but there really are people who value our constitution, who will fight and die for what it really stands for. Who will NOT sit still for what is becoming so nakedly apparent.
I don’t know if you lived thru Watergate. It took an amazingly long time. Nixon got himself re-elected and everything.
Nothing is going to go well. Not Iraq, not the economy, NOTHING. George can’t do the job. He can’t even fake it anymore.
If the Republicans have a brain between them, THEY will start the impeachment proceedings. But it’s not simple because Cheney has to go , too. Best to let Cheney get indicted (do your job, Fitz!) step down, be replaced, then impeach, as we did with Nixon.
Can’t be done in a day. UNLESS…Bush tries to move militarily within the United States. Then, I honestly believe, someone in our government will simply arrest him. But we’ll hear he’s resigning for reasons of health.
OK, so Santa didn’t bring me the presents I wanted. No Fitz indictments of Turd Blossom or Cheney. No huge drop in the Preznit’s approval pols. No sustained public outrage for Preznit’s steady, relentless destruction of separation of powers, judicial review, congressional oversight.
But wait! There’s still some hope. Here in southern Italy is La Befana, and she’s coming January 6.
She’s an old crone with a big pointed nose with a red mole on its tip. She wears an old coat covered with patches. Her shoes are old, broken, and smelly. She flies around on a broom and carries a big black sack full of sweets and presents.
La Befana enters the houses through the chimneys and puts presents inside old socks that are hung out the night before. In the morning when the children wake up, they are happy to find their socks filled with goodies.
But for the children who have not been good, well, there will not be presents. No. La Befana instead will fill their socks with coal.
My only fear is that La Befana might well get confused with all the wingnut lies that are filling the air.
Let’s all pray that she doesn’t!
That’s what I thought you were saying, but wasn’t sure. So there’s not going to be wiggle room based on those two clauses of the statute?
The other thing which came up – I’m not necessarily asking you, Tom – was that if in the first 72 hours of a wiretap, the agent decides to discontinue for any reason, is there an obligation to report the tap to FISA. I might have missed the reply, but thought that unanswered here.
From my experience in public safety, you avoid paperwork every time you drop a case, if it is at all possible.
same guy – different computer without Chinese input and my haloscam cookie and still no law degree, so CAVEAT EMPTOR…
How does US§1806(f))and §1825(g)::: pertain to the cases Jane feels are going to snowball here?
Edward Teller
The good thing about this for non-lawyers is barring some Federalist Society activism from the bench, the fact the Busheviks went outside FISA to do the surveillance means that the FISA laws are not relevant at all. So FISA should provide no privilege based upon national security for the warrantless spying.
Henry,
I think the “fruit of the poisoned tree” evaluation and a solid chain of custody review for physical evidence are both equally bearing on the 4th and 5th amendments in this electronic, instantaneous (and malleable with digital technology, we shouldn’t forget!) world.
You keep thinking that there’s a fuckup here. But there is not, any more than there is a fuckup in raising the deficit so as to make financing social services no longer possible — which, by the way, is their goal. If they seem here to be butting heads with the 4th Amendment, think of it as a plan, not an accident, to defang the Constitution. These guys are truly dangerous. You have great faith in our legal institutions to stop this run-away train. Let us hope that in taking on the judiciary, they will have gone a bridge too far. But please – stop being shocked…
And reaching back, remember Ollie North’s successful appeal? He argued–and won, on the basis of settled law–that the government had to prove, line by line, that each bit of evidence it presented had not come from immunized testimony. An impossible task, so Walsh abandoned the attempt. Something to remind our wingnut friends when they complain about technicalities and civil liberties.
The fruit of the poisoned tree doctrine may not be as protective of Fourth Amendment claimants as it is of Fifth Amendment claimants–but it certainly will be a can of worms. Tapeworms in this case.
Can you say, “MILITARY DICTATORSHIP?
A simpleton like George Bush doesn’t invent things. He doesn’t come up with new ideas. What is happening in the United States is the installation of a common-garden military dictatorship.
National Security (translation: the interests of the governing military clique) trumps everything. The Constitution? Tear it up. Has no role in the pursuit of National Security.
So, the horror, pain, and soul-destroying loss of liberty that we have inflicted on so many other nations around the world now comes home to roost. And it will get worse.
There will be a “terrorist attack” prior to the mid-term elections, and the Republicans will increase their majorities in Congress.
Jeb Bush will be elected President in 2008.
And we will be at war forever.
siun wrote:
” Greeting our wiretapper when picking up the phone was simply good manners – and welcoming the undercover agents assigned to our larger meetings was always a fun way to start an evening.”
Regarding the CISPUS monitoring, you’re accurate, I’m sure. This monitoring has existed far longer than the media and most posts at this site acknowledge, transcends the GOP/dem divide, and has been farmed out to private firms now for over fifteen years that I’m aware of.
I first got to see the relationship you relate to at a talk I attended in Richland, Washington in January, 1995. A friend of mine, a nuclear activist who lived near Hanford, gave a talk to the local chapter of the American Nuclear Society that evening. He pointed out his minders to me as we entered the gathering in a big motel.
I was struck by the cold cordiality they had developed.
I was there to help my friend do a guerrilla Audobon winter bird survey along the Hanford Reach of the Columbia. One of the things we did was take radiological readings near what the energy companies there (Bechtel, Halliburton, Westinghouse) called Hanford Springs. I can’t talk here about what we found.
Times have changed, siun, but let’s not forget our manners:
Good morning to you, Text-Sniffing Algorithm!
The CISPES case is interesting – I was active in the local CISPES group as well as simlar solidarity movements (radical catholic activism of the time) as well as anti-trident and anti-klan efforts and we were quite certain that our work was monitored closely. Greeting our wiretapper when picking up the phone was simply good manners – and welcoming the undercover agents assigned to our larger meetings was always a fun way to start an evening. My first file was started when I was about 15 and involved with a weekly peace vigil – we knew where the cameras were that photgraphed us entering the public affairs center where we met and always paused to wave. Shamefully, I’ve done little in recent years to merit such attention.
Best post in days, Jane – and the comments, Whew!
Tom at 10:51:
How does US§1806(f))and §1825(g)::: pertain to the cases Jane feels are going to snowball here?
This is beginning to look more and more like the No Immigration Lawyer in DC, NYC, Newark, Miami, Houston, LA, SFO and Seattle Left Behind Act.
Thanks for pulling out the CISPES article, Paddy; I’d been thinking about CISPES in recent days. If I recall correctly, the FBI’s justification for infiltrating and harrassing that organization was that they supported “terrorists,” despite the fact that they were more concerned with protecting labor organizers from US-backed Salvadoran death squads than with voicing any support for the actions of the FMLN.
It points to the low threshold for defining American citizens as pro-terrorist when it suits the administration in power. And this was a decade and a half before 911 and referred to “terrorism” outside our borders.
To the degree that the threshold could be brought any lower, we can be sure the Bush administration has done so or will soon. Arresting the Times reporters who broke (albeit a year late) the NSA story may still seem unimaginable for the moment, but come the next terror incident, all bets may be off.
My parents slipped out of Germany in 1937, nearly as late as Jews could. My grandfather, uncle, and aunt remained behind, and the Nazis murdered them. My mother wouldn’t say much about that time but once made the horrifying admission that if Hitler hadn’t targeted the Jews, many Jews in Germany would have followed him.
I am ashamed to see so many Jews, not just hard-core neocons but mainstream suburbanite otherwise-mostly-liberals, support the Bush administration’s excesses, commmitted in the name of anti-terrorism, that with each creeping increment resemble more and more those of earlier dark times. The model may ultimately be more Pinochet than Hitler, but the impulses to complicity are all of a piece.
TeddySanFran — good one.
To paraphrase John Dean on KO tonight — the American people understand wiretapping and Richard Nixon was impeached for wiretapping.
ah … I will have to look for Section Speciale. I have never seen it though Z remains an essential film to me.
And I worry that you are right – they have moved so far outside the accepted civil order already, I cannot imagine them meekly going to jail.
Good to see you here Lupin – I believe we’ve shared comments at the old bar?