Howell did a bad job, but the original article was misleading. I did a quick evaluation at http://citizencain.blogspot.co…..nomic.html

phrith: OK, Howell’s wrong. I read the original article. Howell mischaracterizes the npp research, leaving the impression that it just looked at the 20 counties with highest recruitment rates, when it did not. Howell also mischaracterizes the article, leaving the impression that it did not mention the fact that the proportion of low income and rural person in military was declining, when in fact the original article did mention it.

The article is so poorly written, it is difficult to tell exactly what happened. Mainly because Howell spends most of the space simply quoting criticisms of the npp study and the original article with no context, without enough information to figure out even whether the critics have any idea what was really in the npp study to begin with.

That does not change the fact that calling up a few interested parties who disagree with the npp study and giving them a platform for unanswered ventings of disagreement is not good analysis. It is piss-poor job by any standard, regardless of whether Howell mischaracterized the study and article.

When I visit Washington, the WaPo is my paper of choice.

-

I took the greyhound bus recently and the ticket jacket was a full wrap-around advertisement recruiting for the Army. I’ve never seen that on an airplane ticket, have you?

I wonder why they are targeting the demographic that travels by bus in America

This is like De ja voux(not sure I spelled it correctly) all over again. Like Viet Nam. the only sliver of light is that the casulty numbers aren’t as high…yet . won’t be long before they re-institute the draft!

OK this is just a caddy observation, but one worth mentioning. Does anyone else think Ms. Howell resembles the Lovie-Mrs. Howell from Gilligan’s Island? It’s obvious her elite social attitude does, but I find that her looks are remarkably similar….unless she has just grown/morphed into her namesake?

“A left-leaning think tank that questions the Iraq war.”

Because goodness knows that ONLY the extreme, Michael Moore-worshipping, Ralph Nader-loving portion of the left has ANY concerns whatsoever about the war. Republican politicos like John McCain, Chuck Hagel and Richard Lugar and conservative writers like James Brovard, Patrick Buchanan, and George Will have lavished praise on the administration for its prosecution of the war. (Sure, several of these folks endorsed a second term, but humor me.)
Brovard and Buchanan can’t say enough good things about Bush’s decision to launch the war in the first place. And American Conservative Magazine has published dozens of articles lauding the whole Iraq adventure and the Administration’s performance thus far.
So if any criticism of the war surfaces, it must come from the extreme left of the Democratic Party.
Darn those Randi Rhoads-listening, tofu-eating, volvo-driving liberals, anyway!!!
If I’d have know lazy thinking would carry me that far in journalism, I’d have stayed in it.

Class issues are so old school! Nevermind that these issues have existed for the thousands of years civilization has been around (and probably back when we were in caves). Somehow in the last couple decades they just went *poof* and now we are living in a classless utopia!

So Howell caved to pressure from a bunch of righties. More effective than attacking her for that would be to prove that she was wrong. I mean it’s one thing to have her get a bunch of letters accusing her of kowtowing to those persons she cites, but if we can’t prove she (or they) are wrong, we just sound like whiners – especially if they’re right.

Edward, the story you tell is very typical.

Read part two Here for one of the ways in which Moon made money to finance the right’s takeover of our government.

The UC admits they made the money for Moon’s USA operations in Japan. In Japan there are currently 20,000 claims totalling 800 million USD. The Lawyers who have managed to have the UC convicted of the swindling of their fellow citizens say those figures are less than one tenth what has actually been swindled from the Japanese – targeting widows.

That would be 8 billion. The Washington Times by most estimates has used up a couple billion of that.

Yep, a cult leader who says he’s the messiah here to raise up the Christian right for political power in America, to move us right and theocratic, swindles billions to do just that and the democrats sit with fucking thumbs up there collective asses while they scolded for taking a few million one elction cycle from U.S. CITIZEN Soros to try and stop the subversion of the constitution.

amazing.

Biblical sized blindness to say the least….

siun

Moon has made huge inroads in the black community, especially with black ministers – thanks to the Republicans using him to promote the Faith Based Vote Buying Scheme. The crowning was a way for Moon to smudge a few very naive democrats. It worked as they have cowered further from facing what is going on with our nation. Moon has never supported anything resembling a liberal initiative to my knowledge.

From Tony Norman, here’s the best take on the crowning around. imo.

quoting Norman who found his first article on the crowning didn’t sink in for some …

My June 22[2004] column that touched briefly on Moon’s infamous “Tear Down the Cross” tour was too subtle for its own good. What I should’ve reported, but didn’t, was that Unification Church representatives have been “dialoguing” with black religious leaders in 300 churches nationwide about the efficacy of removing crosses from urban sanctuary walls and replacing them with crowns. The Rev. Moon’s symbol of spiritual and temporal authority on Earth just happens to be a crown, but that’s just a coincidence, I’m sure.

Judging by the e-mail and phone calls that poured in from Moon sympathizers seeking “clarification” of my views, I’m now compelled to state bluntly what should have been obvious from an honest reading of the last column: Sun Myung Moon is a scoundrel, a fraud, a convicted tax cheat and a gun-running opportunist whose right-wing authoritarian agenda is an affront to democracy and the separation of church and state.

I can suggest a quite a few articles to replace your current favorite….like you can find some links in this for Edward Teller…

I understand that Moon is the biggest employer in Kodiak. NBC stated in 1990 that he owned 1/3 of the USA fishing industry, something most moonwatchers find hard to believe… Read some of that and why TV won’t cover Moon here.

BTw, Edward Teller, did you know that Lt. Gen. Daniel O. Graham went to Moon and asked him to get behind Star Wars when even the Reagan administration knew it was an insane idea? “Father” put his propaganda paper on the effort and Reagan bought it. Later Moon financed(200 grand) a propaganda video to keep the money running up that dead hog’s ass. Find some of that HERE

new thread: “What’s he up to?”

Zen:

It’s not quite that dire for the youth of today.

They may have all those influences you mention, but they also have Michael Moore, Chris Rock, System of a Down (look at their Boom! video, sometime–directed by Michael Moore), Eminem, OutKast, and Audioslave. Audioslave is a particular miracle of political action: wreckage from the fiery agitprop of Rage Against the Machine (the only group to shut down the Dow Jones–no kidding!), but their heart still beats radical. They contributed to a successful siege of Yum Foods (Taco Bell) to pay farm workers decent wages.

Go to the concerts our kids go to, and see how accepting they are of the things that would have shocked, only a generation ago. Cross-dressers? Don’t even raise an eyebrow. Gays and lesbians are out and proud, unafraid to show their affection for one another at these events–and they aren’t harassed. I have a long-running joke that Gravity Kills drags the lesbians out of the woodwork; whenever they get on stage, the lesbians go crazy, dancing provocatively, kissing, groping. Heck, I saw one group consisting of two bisexual guys and their bisexual girlfriends going at it so fervently that I almost asked, is this a private orgy or can anyone join in?

Don’t think they don’t have passion, or role models, or voices speaking out. They do. We just need to see and hear them. You don’t think the MSM will give them a mouthpiece, do you?

Up here in Alaska, the Rev. Moon owns a fish cannery on Kodiak Island. He was busted a few years back for illegal sport fishing.

King Salmon catches are limited to one or two per day in many areas, including Kodiak. So Moon had a squad of his acolytes hook the fish so he could land them. Day after day. I can’t remember how he was caught, but his office released some typical right wing b.s.

Back in 1970, a close friend became a Moonie. She was quite wealthy by the standards of my friends then. Her grandfather had a patent on a method for treating wood with kreosote. I think she got a penny for every telephone pole and a nickel for every piling made in the USA. Adds up.

When she joined the Moonies they convinced her that she would never know the truth unless she turned ALL her possessions over to the faith. Soon after she did that, they set her up with a crap marriage to a cruel man and had them move to South Dakota. After a while, she left. They kept her pennies and nickels. They’re still adding up.

Thanks, Valley Girl, and I couldn’t agree more. My own sons are early 20’s and while one would be 4F because he’s disabled, my first-born lives almost entirely off the grid because he does not want any part of any war. But I understand what you mean and I wish I had an answer. As we discuss here, the television has not been a friend or a truth-teller with this or other recent conflicts, esp with Bush refusing to give the public the truth of the death war causes. Remember during VietNam, we would see reporters with thier microphones in the bush with soldiers; not quite the same as seeing photos of Judy Miller in fatigues on loan flirting with the Colonel, is it?

there is a huge disconnect and I think it has something to do with videogames and movies which have created a kind of numbness in our youth. I think if either of my boys sat down with a soldier returned from Iraq they would be shocked at what they would hear. Our lives are so very blessed in the US, and I have never made quite enough to be able to take them to places where there is conflict or even extreme poverty. My older son lives in NM where the mesa tribes lead separate lives, and he has been very poor himself. But he has always had food and shelter the bank of MOM to see him through.

We had National Lampoon and Zap Comix and Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, Country Joe and Joan Baez. They have Ludacris and Shakira, Cribs and MTV the “Real World” which is not any world I’ve seen.

Very important issue, VG, but where is the passion?

Have to sleep, I’m EST, see you tomorrow.

zen

Mack – thanks for the google link – just took a look and even the MSN Money link is simply a reprint of the FT story …

guess it’s another nothing here, keep moving event, eh?

p.lukasiak,

“then why is their primary strategy for dealing with the shortage of recruits to offer more money for signing up?”

That’s about as clear as it gets!

siun | 12.26.05 – 9:01 pm
John Casper | 12.26.05 – 9:10 pm

What should be, but is not particularly astonishing is that this story has , as yet, only been reported overseas in the context of an interview with a diplomat who has no real context in the actual story.
The only US report turned up by Google News is MSN Money !?!?!
Still there might be some slim hope that a stateside (or even Canadian) news agency might see some inherent lies and contradictions in this story.
It *is* a slow new week, so there might be hope of fitting this in between christmas shopping and New Years Eve binge drinking.

On the Rev Moon topic – my favorite Rev Moon story:

http://www.hillnews.com/news/062204/moon.aspx

about Moon’s coronation as the Second Coming at the Dirksen Senate Office Bldg.

some days I think we’ve entered the Twilight Zone with moonies and syria and … hell, toss in Howell’s amazing interpretation of ombudswork.

Recruitment Levels for Afr-amer. 2000-2005

http://www.prb.org/Template.cf…..8;ID=13196

“The percentage of recruits coming from poorer areas has declined every year since 2001 and the percentage coming from richer areas has increased.”

this is actually unsurprising, given that prior to 2001 the military was seen as a low-risk high reward opportunity for those on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder.

But as the risks of service increase, the risk-benefit equation changes for those who once would have joined up for the opportunity that the military represented.

Net result — fewer recruits overall, with the greatest decline among those who saw the military in terms of economic/social opportunity.

**************

…. and if the military was not targetting those with low social/economic opportunity, then why is their primary strategy for dealing with the shortage of recruits to offer more money for signing up?

Valley Girl,

Yes, a beautiful play, tender……
Here’s something you may have seen. Perhaps they should hang articles like this for the kids to read.
http://www.counterpunch.org/banko12132005.html

“Via Raw Story – it looks like we’ve been sending folks to Syria for torture:”

Bob Baer (former CIA Case Officer) has been saying that for quite awhile. His book,” See No Evil” is killer!

siun | 12.26.05 – 9:01 pm | siun, I am with you, astonished.

Heritage?

You ever notice that WHEREVER you look in the history of the “new” right, – there you will find the conservative’s “True” savior – the one who easily outspent Scaife leading the “new” right out of the 40 year liberal wilderness? When are Oreily, Rush, Coulter, Hannity, Savage, Hume and all going to go on FOX and bow before the one who made it happen for them, their TRUE savior, Sun Myung Moon? Without their savior their ilk is not in control of our government. It IS as simple as that. Moon wanted a theocratic and hard righwing government in America and the “new” right has worked with his organization to create it. Today’s conservative is Moon’s political army. They ARE his tools.

A bigger question may be, when are liberals going to finally realize who has been leading their political opponents the last 25 years and act as such?

quotes from: U.S News and World Report March 27, 1989
Rev. Moon’s Rising Political Influence
His empire is spending big money trying to win favor with conservatives.

On New Year’s Day, 1987, South Korean mystic Sun Myung Moon, who considers himself to be the son of God, told his Unification church followers that he wanted to expand the church’s political influence in the United States. His aim, Moon said, was “the natural subjugation of the American government and population.” ….

….the church[Unification] has established a network of affiliated organizations and connections in almost every conservative organization in Washington, including the Heritage Foundation, the largest of the conservative think tanks and an important source of government personnel during the Reagan administration. Although Heritage officials deny it, the foundation has dramatically changed its policy toward the Unification Church. In the early 80’s the foundation, wary of the church’s aims, prohibited staff or fellows from being associated with Unification Church organizations or taking money from the church or church-financed institutions.

As the Washington Times has become the voice of capital conservatives, the Heritage Foundation has become far more tolerant of church ties. The foundation accepts the participation of Lichenstein and other senior fellows in church-funded enterprises and allows its staff members to go to church conferences.

The Unification Church’s newfound influence has occasioned intense debate among conservatives. One group of worried young conservatives meets regularly in private to compare notes about the problem. But little of the debate has surfaced in public forums. “Most people are afraid to address the issue because they don’t want to publicize the extent of the church’s involvement,” says Amy Moritz of the Conservative National Center for Public Policy Research.

Because almost all conservative organizations in Washington have some ties to the church, conservatives also fear repercussions if they expose the church’s role. That happened when one organization, the Capital Research Center, published a newsletter last November warning of the church’s attempt to create a “centralized world theocracy.” One of its board members, who was also on the board of the International Security Council, resigned in protest, and conservatives charging that the paper was creating discord on the right, besieged the center with angry calls. “We got a very, very strong reaction — almost as if we were the enemy — because we raised the issue,” says CRC Chairman Willa Johnson, a former president of the Heritage Foundation.

coriolanus | 12.26.05 – 8:26 pm

Thanks for your comments. First time eh? Come back. Your note of Sassoon and Owens was apt. I saw a local production of “Not About Heros” several years ago, and it has stayed with me- here’s a link to a review of one recent production. Judging by your theatre moniker I assume you know the the play, but for those who don’t: http://www.westword.com/issues…..ater2.html
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Another changing demographic item is the increasing number of fundamentalist Christians in all ranks. I posted my observations about that here a month or so ago.

clearly it’s the IVY LEAGUE schools where the heaviest recruitment is going on.

I can’t believe the LIBERAL MEDIA hasn’t reported this.

The recruitment ‘kiosks’ at country clubs, golf courses and ski chalets are OVERFLOWING with ’sign up’ action.

WHY CAN’T THE LIBERAL MEDIA GET THIS STRAIGHT???????

Via Raw Story – it looks like we’ve been sending folks to Syria for torture:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/…..?gusrc=rss

“Maher Arar, a Canadian software engineer of Syrian descent, says he was arrested in New York in 2002 and transferred to Jordan, then to Syria, where he said he was tortured. The US use of Syria for rendition sits uneasily with Washington’s portrayal of the country as a pariah state.”

Unfortunately the Guardian article is more focused on nailing the imcompetence of the US ambassador to the UK, Tuttle, than in providing more details on this case. Still the idea that we are dropping off people in Syria is astonishing.

there’s a racial urban/rural component to recruiting too. It seems to me the troops are getting ‘whiter’ reflecting a more rural source of recruiting. the Black community is quite opposed to Bush and his foolishness in Iraq. There’s not the faux gung-ho ‘fighting for freedom’ attitude out there in the big cities. militarism as such seems stronger out there in the boonies…

City Girl-> thank you very much. Rant warning: Deborah Howell appears to “stand by” the WaPo getting scooped for an entire year by the NYT on the Bush’s Secret Spying Story. Deborah appears to “stand by” Jim “pool boy” VandeHei and his WATB editor, John Harris, printing Karl Rove’s attorney’s attempts at jury tampering. Hey Deborah, how come Rove’s attorney isn’t leaking anymore?

Ben Bradlee used that phrase “we stand by our story,” when the WaPo was the only newspaper in the country even covering Watergate. Nixon, Agnew, Mitchell, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Zeigler, and the entire “establishment” called the WaPo “liars.” Now more than 30 years later, Deborah Howell in spite of all the news that desperately needs telling, “stands by” the fact she wants the name of Froomkin’s column changed. “Bra-*ucking-vo” Deborah.

BTW,

I noticed in the “meme of fours” string the other day that a lot of O’Glake clan members and their doggies, like me, don’t watch TV. For good reason!

If you have a decent computer and broadband, you can get a lot of good video stuff. I visit C-SPAN and Democracy Now monday through friday. They pretty much close down for the weekend, but have great archives which are easy to get into.

Right now I’m watching and listening to today’s Democracy Now. Howard Zinn is hosting a bunch of actors and actresses rendering dramatic readings from his _A Peoples’ History of the United States_.

The cool thing about sites like this is that you can watch an entire program any time you wish.

My son gets probably 4 recruiting calls a week. He is a high school graduate but not going to college. His friends in college never get recruiting calls. His friends who are working stiffs get them frequently. Just anecdotal, of course, but I really doubt the army is wasting much time and money trying to get affluent college kids to join up. Why bother?

Duke Cunningham is a minus one for the Republicans when it comes to sitting congressional members with military service.

A plus one on the convicted criminal column though.

-GSD

I am sure the Pentagon knows the socioeconomic status of the armed forces, and I am equally sure they will not willingly give that information.

This would be a good place for a Democrat to show some leadership by getting credible numbers and publishing them.

If the Pentagon/White House stonewalls, ask why? Very publicly.

It is intuitive that the ranks are filled with folks from the lower end of the economic spectrum – there aren’t good jobs for folks without a degree, and the poor and working class cannot afford college. They don’t have the options the elite do. I’d love to see some facts to go with the intuition.

Maybe that’s why Cheney broke the tie to cut college funding. To guarantee a supply of recruits for the GWOT without end.

there is a draft (conscription) for Jewish citizens of Israel (except for the ultra-Orthodox) and not for Israeli Arabs (although they may volunteer)

Coyoteville,

I should have fact-checked that, and I didn’t. Going by my evidently flawed memory. You’re probably right.

My understanding is that there are deferments from the mandatory military service in Israel, given to the ultra-religious (studying in a yeshiva). This can be a source of some resentment.

If I remember correctly, Rabin’s killer was in this category

zennurse | 12.26.05 – 8:04 pm

Zen, I am def. not drinking kool-aid, and I was not supporting the idea that we need more troops to further this illegal war. I absolutely agree that we need to get out of Iraq asap, that we are doing harm there and fueling terrorism. I was against the invasion of Iraq from the get-go, and nothing I have seen has changed that view.

The argument that my friend was making, and that I am pondering, was the broader one of how important it is to make the US at large more aware of the decisions that go into making war, and the costs thereof. The immediate awareness of the the human cost of the VietNam war was greater, or at least more broadly felt because a generation of male 20-somethings were having to address the real possibility of being sent to war. The 20-somethings that I deal with in a college environment today don’t have the same awareness, to say the least.

I actually had a great struggle of conscience with myself back when I discovered that my lecture time coincided with a (sadly small) protest against invasion prior to Bushco.’s unilateral decision to do so. After some wrestling, I ended up sending out an email to my students saying that I would give my lecture a second time for any students who wished to attend the demonstration. I was shocked that most all of my students turned up for the lecture at the usual time. If they had been engaged at all in contemplating the consequences of a war on Iraq, I think they would have skipped lecture in favor of the demonstration. That is what would have happened back when I was a college student during the VietNam era.

The point my friend was making, and which I am pondering, is that Americans, as a whole, are not in touch with the consequences of our “foreign policy” in the same way way that they were during the VietNam era, because the possibility of personal loss, i.e. being drafted to fight an illegal war, is not hitting as close to home as it did during VietNam.
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It’s amazing how many more Congressional Democrats served their country than Republicans– it isn’t even close.
woodchuck | 12.26.05 – 7:01 pm

Well, that’s not correct. According to the Congressional Research Service:
Military Service
There are 153 Members of the 108th Congress who have had some form of military service, some 14 fewer than in the 107th Congress. The House has 117 veterans: 69 Republicans and 48 Democrats, including one woman, who is a Republican. In the Senate, 35 Members are veterans: 19 Republicans and 16 Democrats. They have served in World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Persian Gulf, and Kosovo, and during times of peace, as well as in the Reserves and the National Guard. One Senator is a former Secretary of the Navy. There has been a steady decline in the number of Members who have served in the military, which may be attributed in part to the end of the Selective Service System draft in 1973.

The breakdown for the current Congress, the 109th, oddly does not include political affiliation, but I don’t imagine it would be that different from the 108th:
Military Service According to the Military Officers Association of America, there are 141 Members of the 109th Congress who have had some form of military service.15 The House has 110; the Senate 31. They have served in World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Persian
Gulf, and Kosovo, and during times of peace, as well as in the Reserves and the National Guard. As noted above, one Senator is a former Secretary of the Navy. The number of veterans in the 109th Congress is 13 fewer than the 108th Congress and 14 fewer than in the 107th Congress showing the recent trend of a steady decline in the number of Members who have served in the military. This may be attributed in part to the end of the Selective Service System draft in 1973.

Beyond further evidence that Ms. Howell is piling up OT to change the WaPo oumbudsman job description, much tempest in a peapot in this post, Jane.

Since the advent of the volunteer army just over 30 years ago, the percentages of enlisted recruits from poor rural and urban areas have gone up and down as a function of many socioeconomic variables, some too ephemeral to track. Plus, there have been as many reporting errors in this statistical area as in or from any other information output beauraucracy.

As was pointed out above, Howell is not only running true to form again in this latest column but she is completely stonewalling the readers on the Froomkin mess she made. When I called her on it, here is the answer she e-mailed me, in toto:

“While I described dissatisfaction among some Post editors about Froomkin, I only asked that the name of the column be changed so that it didn’t appear that he covered the White House. I stand by that. Deborah”

Valley Girl,
Around my neck of the woods that issue has received lots of airtime. Apathy to our blessings of freedom, growing disparity in wealth, and too many chickenhawks chugging the goofy grape has made many who would never consider such things, pause….. Ms. Howell seems to also ignore the habits of history. Be it the the brothers in Nam(the early years) or in Iraq the perponderance of jarheads with last names like Lopez , or italian boys from brooklyn during wwII, it’s almost a cliche but cliche’s have some truth. Plato said: “Ah the infantry, poor beggers” . Grunts like boxers have always come from places that breed a certain figurative hunger, if not literal. If everyone had to serve ,at least the priviledge of not caring would be costlier. She needs to read Sassoon or Owen if not S. Mason. Sorry for the length. First time poster, oftentime a lurker. Jane rocks!

mayan

I don’t think we need to accept the loss of the word “liberal” as a political description.

I recall numerous times this year when the Bush Administration spokespersons and/or their supporters used the term “liberal” to describe the policies and politicians in Iraq and the Middle East generally that the Administration favored. “Liberal” in this context meant non-sectarian instead of religious fundamentalist, and supportive of democratic and humane principles, including personal rights that we would associate with our Bill of Rights.

What was missing was some reporter and/or columnist pointing out that a “liberal” is therefore one who supports the elements of democracy and the elevation of indvidual rights against an autocratic and/or theocratic state. Someone needed to say that what the Administration fears as a threat to democracy in Iraq is what they describe as their “base” and governing philosophy in the United States.

I’d have no fear of a US politician extolling the virtues of “liberalism” there, and then turning around to his US audience and saying, “and that’s what we believe in here.” Show me that leader, and I’ll pay attention.

Remember too that the military was recruiting at the Houston ?-dome where the Katrina survivors were so drippingly condescended to by Babs Bush. Is this fact all that different from other wars, really? I think Howell is creating a partisan issue out of this, not finding one. The article is really difficult to follow and it seems she went out of her way not to find the truth, but to refute the npp study, which seems to be her MO, and how she sees her job description. I don’t normally read her, sticking to Froomkin and the intelligence guy.

Off-topic warning, but a question for Redd-Hedd, Esq. my favorite blog-lawyer (or attorney?).

How can Bush reconcile his President=King stance in re domestic snooping with the recent delays that have happened in providing federal aid to states in trouble because of administration’s very delicate concerns about state vs. national government perogatives. How do those concerns jibe with the administration’s approach to manning the occupation of Iraq (don’t, like expand the federal amred forces, just bleed the national guard). That last is an interesting question I have right now since there have been some rumblings locally about readiness of CA national guard forces: news stories in the state press, and CA national guard brass grumbling about not being able to handle usual responsibilities.

I guess the most recent example of the adminstration’s delicate concerns is Katrian and aid to Louisiana and Mississippi.

It is an interesting contrast. Any legal thoughts?

“That’s the way they do it in Israel. Mandatory when you turn 18. Deferments? Fugadaboudit.”

I meant that in the context that everyone has a personal stake in it, as opposed to the haves and the have nots. Big difference in your policy when your own kid is involved as opposed to somebody else’s.

I’m also sure that the Fedexing of dead soldiers back to the states cannot be helping recruiting percentages…..

Oops, we mush preview when wee write much and we.

sorry

“My bottom line on polls and surveys, no matter what kind: Look for the widest context.”
I guess the WaPo’s Richard Morin, has as little respect for Deborah’s column as FDL. Morin still refuses to poll on impeachment.

Valley Girl, I think to find agreement there is to succumb to the talking point that we have to be in this war forever and that we mush “honor the fallen” by accepting the need to send more to die. I cannot agree with that on any level. This is a war created by the WHIG and the administration, and I can’t support the notion that sending more troops is going to improve the situation. The war is secular vs Islamist now, with a huge dose of anti-US sentiment fueling the unrest and the best thing we can do is begin our retreat as soon as possible. Providing support for the burgeoning government as they desire it is important, but bombing cities must stop.

Don’t drink the kool-aid, honey, wee need you.

Fondly,
zen

Mayan: To be liberal is to be a freethinker. The direct opposite is a narrow-minded, bigoted, racist, prejudiced and biased. As for myself, I wave my liberal flag and remind those who jeer, what it means NOT to be liberal.

If I still cannot get this message through, I point out that Liberty is better than Censorship. Do we need to start calling liberal haters censors??

Valley Girl,

“And, she said, the draft should include women as well as men.”

That’s the way they do it in Israel. Mandatory when you turn 18. Deferments? Fugadaboudit.

Riesz:
Don’t think we disagree.

Putting aside the point about Howell, for the moment, I accept as a useful hypothesis that lower-income individuals are more likely to sign up and that this is a function of lack of attractive alternatives. The anecdotal evidence from Moore’s movie was supportive, but more rigor was obviously needed. The use of zip codes linked to average incomes (if that’s what they did) is a useful start at testing the hypothesis, and so far seems to support it. They presumably recognize that the data they had were not as good as having the individual data.

I didn’t mean to disparage the study. It’s important, because the moral issue of sending only some to fight “our” wars is important. It deserves more attention (and Ms. Howells should therefore not belittle serious efforts to explore the issue).

I agree that one needs to be able to read the statistics and their interpretations intelligently, and the problem is not unique to reporters. But I think Jane’s point is less about Ms. Howells intelligence re statistics than her political inclinations, which seem eager to diminish the importance of efforts to explore an important political and ethical issue regarding how a nation sustains its wars.

For some reason recruiting isn’t going as well on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Though the South Bronx has seen some upticks. An intuitive feeling backed up by hard data obviously requires “balance” in this age when such “objectivity” is more needed than mere truth. Oy.

Just a few days ago I had a long conversation with my “best friend”- = oldest and dearest friend from college days. One of the best and most hilarious parts of the conversation was that I discovered that I am actually a year younger than I have been thinking I was!

However, part of the conversation was truly thought-provoking. I said that it was clear that we were once again seriously facing the prospect of a military draft, and how much I dreaded that.

Her perspective was quite different– that it would be a good thing, because it would force Americans to pay more attention to our foreign policy, pay more attention to the universal stakes involved in warfare, and not just let the Pentagon etc. make war using a “volunteer” army that depended on a few, often the most vulnerable recruits.

And, she said, the draft should include women as well as men. (BTW If there were a draft, I would definitely agree that both men and women should be called up- I thought it horribly unfair that only my male friends should have to deal with this reality during the Vietnam era, etc. etc.)

In any event, her words have given me a lot to think about re: the fate of our nation, and Jane’s post re: the recruitment issue has reminded me of something else in the mix– in some ways the current situation may be even worse than that during Vietnam- yes, then those of privilege often managed in some manner to avoid the draft, but now the divide between the “haves” and the “have nots”, for lack of a better distinction, seems even greater.

I am beginning to see the wisdom in my friend’s point of view, and continue to ponder it.
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Would it be difficult to imagine that perhaps this “weeding out” of young Democrats into the military, based on information gathered through intapigence, helps the gerrymapping later on?

It seems to me that we have lost the word “liberal” – perhaps forever but at least for a LONG time.

I think the line shifted at the moment that Bush I “accused” Dukakis of being a “card carrying member of the ACLU” during a presidential debate and Dukakis slowly imploded into a verbal foetal position.

I was shocked (and I mean shocked) when I was having a correspondance with a right-leaning (though reasonable) person on another board. It seemed to be that we were talking about apples and oranges when we were talking about “liberals.” So I asked him to define what he thought “liberal” meant and he said it was someone on the yo way far, radical left. I tried to disabuse him of the notion but I was blown away by how deep-seated his definition was.

I don’t see how to change it. It is now a major “flag” word and can be used to dismiss any idea as being flaky, unworkable, etc. They did a masterful job of hi-jacking the term…I don’t know how to get it back.

“Then there’s NASCAR. Our US military is spending millions of dollars a year recruiting young men at NASCAR races. As the Air Force’s superintendent of motorsports said (according to the AP, that’s actually his job?superintendent of motorsports), NASCAR is the military’s “target market.” The Army alone is spending $16 million a year at NASCAR events. Each branch of the Armed Forces sponsors NASCAR race drivers and they set up recruiting booths outside of NASCAR events. This “belly-to-belly selling,” the superintendent of motorsports explained, enables the military to woo potential recruits “face to face.”

http://www.alternet.org/story/22286

we look forward to the day when she actually represents the public.

Public is a dead word, like every other good thing debased into PR nothingness.

This flunky will “represent the public” when I am the King of Siam and goats fly out my butt.

Amazing work tonight, Jane! Rant away, girlfriend.

got this from Rep John Tierney, MA today:

~snip~
The President and his administration have so often used the urgency of
national security threats to justify their conduct that credibility for
such
claims is found strained by many Americans. Questions abound about
this administration’s ability to recognize and respect legal
boundaries,
and I and a number of my colleagues are deeply concerned that President
Bush’s actions have placed in peril the hard-fought and hard-won rights
guaranteed to American citizens under the Constitution.

~snip~

No, he didn’t use the I word.

tryggth: thanks for the link to npp’s response. I can’t look more than 14 days back, so can’t see original story. If npp only looked at the top twenty recruting counties, that would be a very bad methodology, in general. But npp’s response says that they didn’t, it suggests that they looked counties across a wide range of incomes. But how many -all of them, a sample? What?. Howell seems to be relying on totally on the Heritage foundation’ and the Pentagon’s interpretation of npp’s methodology.
I can’t tell from the public editor’s story or npp’s response whether Howell’s analysis (or rather the Heritage Foundation and Pentagon’s analysis that she reports uncritically) is accurate.

The story gives the impression of a person totally in over their heads regarding a subject. And a person who is unwilling or unable to seek out some expert advice to help her uderstand the facts of the matter. Instead, the public editor goes and gets some folks who would not like the analyiss and quotes their criticisms, which is hardly an objective approach. Then the public editor seems to throw up her hands and conclude with some gibberish that the numbers are OK but the context is wong.

The public editor did NOT do what she recommends doing. She did not seek out as many experts “as possible” (I guess she really meant “as many as needed”) to help her understand the issues. She just called around to get few people who might or might not be experts and who would likely disagree with the conclusions and just quoted their criticisms as if they were completely correct stateemnts (which may or may not be the case). The public editor shows no sign of understanding anything about the study, or statistical methods or anything.

Piss poor performance. I don’t know if it is some kind of bias at work. But it seems to be a pathetic half-assed CYA approach to ther job.

So Howell caved to pressure from a bunch of righties. More effective than attacking her for that would be to prove that she was wrong. I mean it’s one thing to have her get a bunch of letters accusing her of kowtowing to those persons she cites, but if we can’t prove she (or they) are wrong, we just sound like whiners – especially if they’re right.

scarecrow:

What is the relevance of being from a “poor area” vs a “rich area,” when the question being asked is the relative wealth (or lack thereof) of the individual recruits and whether this is an important factor in signing up?

They used the zipcodes to estimate the incomes of the recruits, since they didn’t have the data on incomes of individual recruits.

And if (e.g.) the percentage of less wealthy recruits was 75% prior to 2001 but is now only 70%, then the percent of wealthier recruits would be rising, but still underwhelming. That’s the problem when arguing from statistics.

Good point, except I don’t agree that the problem is with arguing from statistics– the problem is that so many journalists (including Deborah Howell) are not intelligent enough to analyze the statistics.

A Veteran’s Iraq Message Upsets Army Recruiters

DULUTH, Minn., Dec. 21 – As those thinking of becoming soldiers arrive on the slushy doorstep of the Army recruiting station here, they cannot miss the message posted in bold black letters on the storefront right next door.

“Remember the Fallen Heroes,” the sign reads, and then it ticks off numbers – the number of American troops killed in Iraq, the number wounded, the number of days gone by since this war began.

snip

“We’re still taking casualties from Vietnam, years later,” Mr. Cameron said recently. “Is the same thing going to happen again?” Despite the location, he insists that his purpose is not to prevent new recruits from signing up for the Army, but to honor those who made sacrifices. Still, Mr. Cameron also says, “Before they join the military, people better know what they’re getting into.”

Clashes like this are emerging elsewhere, too, even as the Army wrestles with the challenge of recruiting during a war, a struggle that left it 8 percent shy of its goal to bring in 80,000 new active-duty soldiers in the most recent recruiting year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12…..th.html?hp

Aeschylus

ReddHedd had an earlier article about a piece by Jay Rosen mostly re: NYT. http://firedoglake.blogspot.co…..235188823, linking to http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubz…..y_nyt.html

I read it and the comments. This one nailed Howell: http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubz…..mment22390

[snip] “Over at the Post, things are even worse. After starting the whole Froomkin debacle, Deborah Howell has gone into complete stonewall mode, and refuses to address reader concerns about her own role in the debacle, or Downie’s and John Harris’s willingness to channel the concerns of the RNC and the White House directly onto the pages of the Post. And, instead of addressing the whole controversy over the Post’s refusal to ask about impeachment in its polls — and the fact that the question isn’t being asked because it would anger the White House, this week Howell addresses the concerns of the Heritage Foundation regarding a story on military recruitment — and does so in an incomprehensible fashion.”
-

And look how fast, the NSA shit. Already assimilated and talking-pointed and tidied up. Next?

Just sayin, we’ve enjoyed a great luxury with these internets, and trust me Bush intends to destroy what we’ve got and will because he can and because he’s a sniveling little nazi prick and there’s nothing to stop him anymore. For the time being anyway, till Sophocles and Euripides and Aeschyus catch up with him.

scarecrow, thanks for reminding me the main point of the post isn’t about the sad numbers.

Deborah Howell-She’s stupid and she’s ugly and nobody likes her. Like Rick “Man-On_Dog” Santorum. Deborah will never make any friends at this rate.

I stole that from you know who.

What is the relevance of being from a “poor area” vs a “rich area,” when the question being asked is the relative wealth (or lack thereof) of the individual recruits and whether this is an important factor in signing up?

And if (e.g.) the percentage of less wealthy recruits was 75% prior to 2001 but is now only 70%, then the percent of wealthier recruits would be rising, but still underwhelming. That’s the problem when arguing from statistics.

But the underlying problem appears to be Ms. Howell. Perhaps we should suggest to the publishers/editors to conduct a poll on whether the public believes Ms. Howell is serving the public interest. Has any pominent Demo called for that?

NPP’s response is up at:

http://nationalpriorities.org/…..;Itemid=61

I’ll try to provide some more serious commentary in just a mo, but I need a Highball first, myself.

from http://www.cdkitchen.com/recip…..2485.shtml is the following:

Capitol Hotel`s San Francisco Highball Recipe

Ingredients:

* 1 1/2 ounce Absolute Vodka
* 3/4 ounce Banana Liqueur
* 5 ounces Fresh Orange Juice
* Dash of Grenadine

Directions:

Shake all ingredients with ice and strain over ice into a highball glass. Garnish with a slice of orange and a cherry.
-

Jane and Redd,

I assume you already back up your website, but I have seen a discussion on a different website about “suspicious activities” in 04 that were wiped from some peoples’ websites.

So with that in mind, better store TWO sets of archives to be prepared for the censor Gods.

I’m wondering how many dead there were in New Orleans and if they’ll be voting Republican in 2006……..

The sooner this overfed idiot country implodes on its own bullshit, the sooner we can rebuild something decent again atop the ruins.

The current state of things is beyond redemption, and it’s not nearly yet as bad as it’s going to get.

Just to keep my daily sanity I’ve had to go to Big Cosmic Cycle thinking.

Woodchuck,

I think you’re right about the fact that more dems serve in the military. I know it’s true about our family.

This is relevant to the topic, so give it a chance…

The Dreamers (2004)
The best movie. or should I say the most important movie. it makes the call and divides x from y. pure film european. yet it is an american movie. in the global village.

i just saw it.

bertolucci includes footnotes in the sociological paper. yet it is a call to the pending action. this is not a contemporanious anti-vietnam movie. this is an anti-new world order/iraq (bush1&2).

it sets the bar for the competitive real time cinema experience. and it is socially significant because it recognizes the that you all and i are pretty comfortable and as well as afraid. not a good combination for action. but good for bushCO.

before you see it, be well rested and let your mind go. unwrap the movie as if it were a christmans present.

ps, there are two blatent mistakes in the movie. i think it is supposed to symbolize that even in defense of two 18th century revolutions, mistakes can be made…

btw, the explicit sex is important to the story, so try to pay special attention to it.

Those of you who do not appreciate obscure posts, plose don’t be offended. This is how free speech is supposed to work. Just have patience and it will soon be gone.

This movie hit me like all of the stuff we talk about on this site. Do we sit back and drink wine, or do we…..?

A more interesting set of numbers would be the political affiliation of the soldier’s families. I’d bet my last nickel that families who identify as Democrats provide a lot more manpower to the services than GOP families.

It’s amazing how many more Congressional Democrats served their country than Republicans– it isn’t even close.

“My bottom line on polls and surveys, no matter what kind: Look for the widest context. Ask as many experts as possible what the numbers mean. Numbers can be right but not tell the full story, and that’s the case with the article on recruiting.”

Jane, if you ask yourself, “what’s in Ms. Howell’s best interests professionally,” you’d probably conclude that she is correct to seek ‘balance.’ Afterall, the whole point of her job is to try to appease conservative critics of the Post. Not that they will ever believe the WaPo is fair, but as long as the can point to her work, they can try to wash their hands of future critiques. Your premise, that the WaPo is supposed to serve it’s readers above it’s sharholders may not be their premise.

The quote from the article:

“The percentage of recruits coming from poorer areas has declined every year since 2001 and the percentage coming from richer areas has increased.”

presumably has some data behind it begging at least some analysis and interpretation.

Fitz?

So, do we let Howell have it big time for this falsehood? I for one am eager to take on shills like Howell. When we don’t, they feel more impowered to distort for the Rethuglicans. Any controversy is better than taking this without the proverbial KY.

Even if our responses only pisses them off, these apologists should know that when they whore out for the Ratwing, they will have to face some fall out. For far to long we rolled over and took it. Having this flack feel the pressure and get upset over the “evil blogs” is a price worth paying to at least make them think twice about shilling.

Please advise.