siun, another reason the MSM are more lively now is because Fitzgerald put one of their heroines in jail, and threatened to take more steps to keep her there for a long long time…

That was a wakeup call to a lot of reporters: it stirred their basic feelings of self-preservation. Let’s face it, if Judy Miller could run afoul of the law, with all her contacts and her heroic status at the NYT, then what unknown terrors might face the lesser beings every time they dealt with the powers that be?

I would not be surprised if many reporters – certainly in the print media – suddenly realized that (1) they were generally being suckered by the Administration; (2) their bosses could not or would not run cover for them; (3) not one of them was immune from attack if they were suckered into breaking the law of the land.

This shock – of vulnerability, and lack of support if they were singled out – probably shook a lot of their faith in just “going along.”

The reason the TV reporters are relatively immune to the reality in the world so far, probably lies in the fact that – so far – none of them has been dragged into a prison cell to contemplate the hierarchy of values set out in the Constitution. Imagine if Russert spent time in jail for not disclosing something a senior administration official told him? Want to bet how fast the TV MSM would start biting any coins proffered them by any White House official?

Nothing like things that go bump in the night to wake zombies up …

Didn’t I read somwhere that the Rove-to-Hadley e-mail wan’t found in Hadley’s “in-box?” I thought I read that in a blog somewhere. That might explain why Hadley responded as he did today about seeing news reports about the e-mail as opposed to saying he himself saw the e-mail…Just a thought…

—

RE: [ Constant Reader | 12.04.05 - 4:05 pm |] –
This is the biggest single reason I was pissed off about Plame’s outing — not just that so many assets were exposed, but the nature of the the possible assets exposed.

Imagine the assets and resources with which the wife of an ambassador comes in contact; they are not just persons with which a front company might deal, but other ambassadors’ and officials wives, their children, their extended families. Any of them with access to critical information were compromised as well.

A male NOC with a more typical kind of front might not have access to women and families in certain cultures. Plame would have entirely different access by virtue of being a woman and a dignitary’s spouse. Not to mention Plame’s personal and family status at the time of the outing — a mother of twin toddlers.

Unf*cking believably immoral and unethical actions on the part of this so-called “family values” White House and OVP. Completely beyond the pale. But unfortunately not entirely out of character for a White House/OVP/DoD that condones torture, the illegal use of weapons like white phosphorus on civilians, complete disregard for the poor of this country and all others, blatant and widespread use of propaganda and lying to a nation to achieve its ends.

RE: [Tryggth | 12.04.05 - 4:17 pm | ] –
Yes, an open source mind or project mapping software would be wonderful here. I’ll take a look around and see what I can find, I think I’ve run across something like i2 before. The challenge will be bandwidth and hosting; there are some softwares that are run as webbased services, but they may not permit as many folks as we have to collaborate without $$. I’ll post here if I find anything.

With Mr. Handley, I am disappointed the focus by the media and blogs is whether he received or did not receive an email message from Mr. Rove.

Handley should be grilled over why is statements of the ABLE DANGER do not match up to those espoused by Rep. Weldon. Why does Weldon say Handley walked away from a meeting with Atta’s photo, and Handley’s spokesperson says it wasn’t so.

May be after the Plame investigation, the US Government will task SP Fitzgerald to investigate the ABLE DANGER story.

emptywheel, seems Cathie didn’t like the heat she was getting in Cheney’s office over the intelligence. Sy Hersh did an interview with her also.

I found this info:

http://www.boomantribune.com/s…../111319/79

[snip] “She’s married to Kevin Martin, the current head of the FCC, appointed by Bush in March of this year. (See “All Shook Up: Martin Remakes FCC.”) Mrs. Martin, who previously served as “vice president Dick Cheney’s chief spokesperson, is now a special assistant to the president on economic matters.” (Advanced Pipeline, via Nag) There’s much more about Cathie Martin below the fold, including an interview of her with Seymour Hersh on Cheney’s awareness of Joseph Wilson’s trip to Niger.”

http://www.networkingpipeline.com/159900894 March 16, 2005

[snip] “President Bush on Wednesday named Kevin Martin to lead the Federal Communications Commission, according to a White House press release

[..] His [Martin’s] wide knowledge of telecommunication policy issues and insight into the rapidly changing nature of communications technology will serve the agency well,” said Powell in his statement. “Ultimately, everything the FCC does must serve the public interest and benefit consumers, and I am confident he will be vigilant in pursuing these goals.”

[..] Martin, who was named by Bush to the FCC in 2001, had previously served as Special Assistant to the President for Economic Policy at the White House. He took over that post following a stint as deputy general counsel for Bush’s 2000 campaign team. He was also heavily involved with the Bush team’s legal challenges in Florida following the contested 2000 election.

[..]Earlier in Martin’s career, he served as legal advisor to FCC Commissioner Harold Furchtgott-Roth. He also spent time working with Kenneth Starr’s office in the Monica Lewinsky and Whitewater investigations. His wife, Catherine Martin, has served as vice president Dick Cheney’s chief spokesperson and is now a special assistant to the president on economic matters.”

Well, well, interesting about her hubby too. So far I haven’t tracked down anything on why she left for sure, or more recent except a radio interview about Social Security on 6-2-05 :

http://www.whitehouse.gov/radio/archive200506.html

5:59pm ET Dec. 4, 2005: msnbc.com

I see Benjamin Netanyahu, former Prime Minister of Israel is quoted by Reuters on MSNBC tonight as calling for Israel to take “bold and courageous action” (I think we know what that means. Lots of dead people.) against Iran. Ol’ Ben Yahoo is of course running as the ultra right-wing nut candidate for leadership of the ultra right-wing Likud party, of which P.M. Sharon recently bolted from to form his own, so called centrist party. The Likud Party under present Prime Minister Sharon played the Bush administration like the hurdy-gurdy man plays the monkey. Especially in its guidance of the Bush nut neo-cons into the Iraq debacle.

Look out for another Mid-East invasion, perhaps by Israel which would surely take the presidents frying little itty-bitty balls off the grill. Wonder if this might be another bold example of Washington/Jerusalem/Shin Bet/Pentagon/C.I.A. history of collusion and skullduggery?

new thread (juicy!)

Carlos the Jackal was indeed a major-league known famous terrorist. But how many unknowns have been silently snatched and disappeared? Who determines who should be ‘rendered’? WaPo has a chilling story today. http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01476.html

Emptywheel –

It is most likely she quit rather than was fired. Given the Admin’s circle the wagons philosophy (it took an indictment to get Scooter out), it is most likely they would have liked to keep her close to them/on their side, on the payroll.

If, on the other hand, if she was going to testify freely about what she knew, and it was incriminating, it makes sense for her to have quit and left the conspiracies.

Of course, I don’t know, but from the conspirators’ standpoint, it would make no sense for them to fire her.

This thing is getting so complicated.

I wish there was some good open source software that was similar to:

http://www.i2.co.uk/Products/A…..efault.asp

On the issue of rendition: That’s a pretty benign rendering of the procedure Hadley tried to pass off, as if it were just something very similar to extradition. Carlos the Jackal was wanted in France for the murder of police officers. The Sudanese captured him and handed him over to the French. I don’t think there was a formal extradition done, but there definitely was a deal between Sudanese and French authorities. Carlos was tried and convicted to life in prison. I don’t think he was sent to Paris so that the French could squeeze out of him information useful to the Sudanese.

It’s also pretty funny that someone in this country leaked the name of a NOC to the press and not one Republican has stepped forward to express outrage, unless I was sick that day.

As I read all the analyses (and I am in awe of some of the kremlinology going on here), I keep coming back to the original situation and wondering, How bad was the damage?

We know that Brewster-Jennings has now been shut down, but how many people, in how many countries around the world, were persecuted, prosecuted, thrown from office or high buildings because they had once had some passing contact with someone who worked for B-J? How many lines of valuable inquiry have been truncated? How many American troops have been or will be killed because information sources have disappeared?

Chances are we’ll never know the true extent of it, but I suspect it’s massive.

And I have to agree with those who don’t see Hadley as flippee. He is a True Believer and neocon functionary. I find it hard to imagine him as an accessory to Fitz.

Shez

Does anyone know why Cathie Martin resigned/got quit? She seems the central test of this theory. Everyone else we suspect to have testified substantially (Ari, Powell and the rest at State, Tenet and McLaughlin) quit (Ari) or were quit (the rest) around the time they testified. Martin is the only obvious mid-level person who has testified in really incriminating ways. She’s not at OVP anymore. Why not?

maybe Susan Ralston is translating Tagalog documents discovered in Cheney’s Office ? [/off snark]

Jane- Actually I think they can’t fire them. Who was the secretary of Rove who testified? IIRC She now has “other duties” but the White House won’t say what they are. I’m picturing someone with an office in a closet putting blank labels on empty folders all day long.

“David Corn, I’m confused.”

At HuffPo, John Amato from C&L.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..11677.html

aww EPU, let it out man! let it out! Don’t hold back on us, you’re just busting to say bullshit some more! LOL, yea you’re right, they are soooooo full of it. There is no rift between the neocons and the wingnuts, same evil species, same page, lots more lies and even more dollars. Just to think about the SOTU coming up makes me cringe. Shudders.

Steve Gillard’s blog has a story up by James Wolcott regarding David Corn and that Pajamas Media blogroll.

a Snipette:

None would condemn him for seeking other inklings of steady income, but not if it meant working the piano bar in a house of ill-repute. Corn spurned my well-intentioned counsel, deflecting my Polonious advice by casting aspersions upon Vanity Fair. If he had only listened, he might have spared himself needless shame. That’s what happens when you let pride overrule the nagging voice of reason. Today Corn no doubt wishes he had heeded mine and similar admonitions, given the industrial-strength stinker Pajamas Media has become, the internet’s first Edsel.
snip

Pach — In an administration desperately clawing to save itself from going down, I just don’t see anyone saying “I’m sorry, I can’t answer your questions on advice of my attorney” and sticking around there very long.

I’ve been out of the loop since 1:50, and will stay out a while longer. I’ll try to respond when I return. Sorry.

Leno:

California congressman Duke Cunningham resigned from office after admitting he broke the law by taking $2.4 million in bribes. It’s kind of ironic. The only time you can be really be sure that a [rep] politician is telling the truth is when he’s admitting that he’s a crook.

Siun,
I know that Blitzer is very pro-Israel. Nevertheless, in general I see him taking the proper, adversarial role towards more guests these days, whatever his personal beliefs.

Pachacutec–Of course, my point exactly.

marky – never forget Wolf’s bio:

His career in journalism began in 1972, in the Tel Aviv bureau of the Reuters news agency. He soon moved to Washington, D.C., where he was White House correspondent for The Jerusalem Post after a spell working for AIPAC.

(source Wiki and for info on AIPAC, see Wiki here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIPAC

I remember Wolf as the Jerusalem Post guy on several early talking heads news programs – he was actually pretty smart and not always blind to Israel’s flaws but still not very open to looking clearly at ME issues.

The Israeli hawks have been brilliant at playing Washington and the US MSM has always ignored the opposition in Israel and the strong Israeli peace movement as well as the legitimate demands of the palestinian people for autonomy and human rights. I’m not saying that Wolf is still working for AIPAC nor do I hold with the conspiracy views that suggest that the Israelis are funning our foreign policy via the NeoCons but Wolf more than most MSM players has reasons to lean toward Israeli interests and it’s good to keep that in mind.

Every reporter (just like every scientist) conducts their work with certain innate beliefs, leanings, slants – and it’s important to remember that no matter what side they are on.

karen: I think that’s a straw man argument.

No one here is promoting as probable the idea that Hadley flipped, and no one here believes Hadley is an honest man. Anyone who flips is doing so to save his ass (cough, Scanlon, cough!), and not because he’s honest.

Jake sure hopes Kobe can get some beach
running this afternoon. Jake says Kobe needs
some fresh air to think about where this will go when the Rove goes down . He told me it’s going to be one messy hen house with feathers everywhere and dead carcasses strewn around with the Fox bagging up the kill. Jake has never killed a chicken though .I’d hang it around his neck if he did. Maybe that would work on Bush if Karl goes down. Maybe he would think twice about the ill-fated path he’s on.

OT, I was so disappointed that Bushboy didn’t fly to Iraq and present our troops with another plastic turkey on a platter this past Thanksgiving. Karl was too busy Armor-All-ing his own posterior that he didn’t have time to tell Bush to do that.

I’m not sure about the email alteration theory here, what with the time stamps and all, and how much work it would be to get an altered email into the system without leaving dataprints.

So now I wonder…

In what form is the email Luskin saw? I don’t see Luskin digging through computer tapes/disks for dataprints. Or his staff. How much easier is it if Karl says something like, “Oh, I’ll have all those printed up and couriered to you, immediately.” You know, to seem cooperative and helpful.

Is it possible that Luskin has a copy Karl altered, printed and gave to him…but Fitz has the original email from the data archives? And is it possible that there’s a discrepancy between the two?

as to the flipping bit – the thing I always come back to is that this really is a minor infraction compared to the rest of the garbage these guys have been up to. They must each know a lot of dirt on each other so it is best to probably just take it and shut up.
If ya spill on somebody they could come back and spill on you for something worse.

Bush thought he was safe with John Ashcroft as attorney general. Ashcroft did nothing about the investigation for months and then recused himself. Good move on his part, so save his own posterior, or soul, as he would phrase it. Thank God for the person who appointed Patrick Fritzgerald to be in charge of this investigation!

IMHO: there will be troop reductions. reference Murtha’s comments on the state of the military. plus, if (as I’m confident of) the vested interests have decided that Iraq is the root cause of public dissatisfaction and the Preznit’s and Congresses’ low polling numbers, then they will use “progress” on that issue to deprive these other issues (Plame-gate, Abramoff-gate, etc) of the fuel of public ire. back to the status quo, just in time for the ‘06 elections. the job is to keep that from happening. letters, lot and lots of letters. letters to the editor, letters to Congressmen, letters to the Dem and Repub party leadership. they need to see that there is a tidal change happening in mass opinion of “how things are going in America”. just my opinion…

siun –

Yes, I agree. I would perhaps change one bit you said – they can be criminal genuises and incompetent boobies all at the same time. I mean, it worked didn’t it? Wilson was dismissed and the war went on, didn’t it?

They clearly forgot that there are people in our government that are decent people who work their asses off for this country. And thank goodness some of them were in the Justice Department in this case.

I was the 3:22 anon.

It kills me, not literally, when I read posts that talk about two camps in the White House, Chimpy’s and the Dark Lord’s.

Who created this false dichotomy? THE ADMIN! The only reason it exists is to try to “spin” Chimpy out of Traitorgate, the conspiracy of false intel that “sold” the war, the failure of the war in Iraq in every regard, torture, etc.

They are all on the same team – neocons vs. wingnuts is pure bullshit. Why can’t they all be Neocon Wingnutters?

I may not believe in cabals, but I certainly believe they are trying to save Chimpy with this idea that he is upset with the actions of these “rogues” in his government, disappointed, whatever words are used.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Yes I said bullshit I mean bullshit.

Chimpy and Rover vs. the Dark Lord and whomever?

If you want to believe that Rover will do and say anything AT THIS POINT IN TIME to save Chimpy, I’ll agree. However, that does not mean that there WERE two camps in the Admin prior to all their dirty secrets/crimes being revealed and investigated b/c there weren’t.

Let’s remember that Stephen Hadley is an attorney, graduated from Yale Law School. He isn’t some young intern who doesn’t know what’s going on. He has been a career conservative government appointee for over 32 years, since he was in his 20’s. He has been a conservative “yes” man for all of his working life. Bush made the unusual move of inviting him along on his recent Asian trip. The BushCo people wouldn’t hesitate to lie to save their own hides, and Hadley is one of them. Only problem is, the Bushies never anticipated Patrick Fitzgerald. They had gotten away with so much for so long, they thought they could do anything and get away with it. They still hope they can, although they are worried about it. I don’t think Hadley is the “honest guy” who decided to come clean with Fitzgerald.

the Preznit: “What’s all this droopy Kenny-G-type music playing for?”

Mini thought here.

This Rove to Hadley email (which I too think is red herring) occurred on, as far as we know, 7/11/03, correct? Isn’t this the email that followed Rove conversation with M. Cooper for which Susan Ralston (allegedly) initially testified before GJ was not logged because M. Cooper incoming call originated from main WH operator. Ralston (subsequently, allegedly) recanted (based on Fitz evidence that other main WH operator originated calls were logged).

- Rove discused Niger before leaving on vacation.

- Sent an email to Hadley to keep him in loop.

- Covered his patootie with the press aide.

- Instructed Ralston not to log call.

Seems like too much work to forget something.

sorry about the double post…I get confused ny this “haloscan” thing

About Blittzer. I agree that he is definitely doing a better job than 1 year ago. I have to say that sometimes when people have been angry about him for hard questioning of, say, Joe Wilson, they don’t accept that he might just be doing his job.
Anyway, that’s my take.
Another thing I noticed is that he seems genuinely happy these days. Have you noticed that he has been honest to god smiling recently? I swear that in 15 years of watching him, I had never seen a genuine smile, and in one segment recently, I saw several.

I think he is doing more real journalism (with room for improvement, obviously), and he enjoys it more.

marky – disinformation – you bet and they’ve been living by it all their lives

but I think there’s hope that people are fed up enough to not buy it this time – polls show strong support for a pullout of troops and when W floated his little victory speech last week, his support went down … they’ve seen the man behind the curtain and know they’re not in OZ anymore.

siun,

I’m with you…maybe it’s because I only got 3 brain cellz left and I need 1 fer the left foot and 1 fer the right leavin only 1 ta chew gum and find the refridgerator but I’ve thought for some time that all the spin and obstruction that’s been comin’ out since the Libby indictment is jest that – spin and obstruction. They really didn’t think they would get caught and even when the CIA advanced the complaint they figured the fix was in ‘cuz they had the SCOTUS, congress, the media and the fete accomple of the on-goin war. They really aren’t very smart and now that the inevitable has happened and nuthin they have done is workin’ they really have no options and nuthin ta lose by spinnin round and round tryin’ ta keep the media and the prosecutor occupied for as long as possible.

I think we need ta get off all the scolastic speculation about wither this e-mail er that non-denial denial…we hafta simplify this thing and let Fitz keep track a the details of the subconspiracies. Let me advance this idea: Fitz has enough right now ta bring charges of purgery, obstruction and conspiracy to obstruct on MANY folks includin’ Rove and Hadly. All the players know this so they figure another lie er 2 doesn’t matter. When Fitz pulls the trigger on Rove (not if but when) then the end will come very quickly…Rove er Libby er Hadly er ALL of ‘em will flip and the entire structure of the executive government will come down. It is obvious that they have decided that they can’t cut their loses and survive, that’s why nobody has resigned er been fired. This is the Kamikazee strategy…I bet they got Wagner playin in the halls a the Whitehouse instead a Xmas carols.

siun,

I’m with you…maybe it’s because I only got 3 brain cellz left and I need 1 fer the left foot and 1 fer the right leavin only 1 ta chew gum and find the refridgerator but I’ve thought for some time that all the spin and obstruction that’s been comin’ out since the Libby indictment is jest that – spin and obstruction. They really didn’t think they would get caught and even when the CIA advanced the complaint they figured the fix was in ‘cuz they had the SCOTUS, congress, the media and the fete accomple of the on-goin war. They really aren’t very smart and now that the inevitable has happened and nuthin they have done is workin’ they really have no options and nuthin ta lose by spinnin round and round tryin’ ta keep the media and the prosecutor occupied for as long as possible.

I think we need ta get off all the scolastic speculation about wither this e-mail er that non-denial denial…we hafta simplify this thing and let Fitz keep track a the details of the subconspiracies. Let me advance this idea: Fitz has enough right now ta bring charges of purgery, obstruction and conspiracy to obstruct on MANY folks includin’ Rove and Hadly. All the players know this so they figure another lie er 2 doesn’t matter. When Fitz pulls the trigger on Rove (not if but when) then the end will come very quickly…Rove er Libby er Hadly er ALL of ‘em will flip and the entire structure of the executive government will come down. It is obvious that they have decided that they can’t cut their loses and survive, that’s why nobody has resigned er been fired. This is the Kamakazee strategy…I bet they got Wagner playin in the halls a the Whitehouse instead a Xmas carols.

http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004

Marky… You write a letter, send it to the press. You write them as often, and as much as you can.

Think of your keyboard as a rifle.

It’s war time.

You are a soldier in the trenches.

This is OT, but I just wanted to bring up something about Iraq and troop reductions. I just saw a headline on Yahoo saying that Bush is considering troop reductions in 2006.
If your heading is spinning after reading that, you’re not alone.
What I wanted to mention is that the Bush administration is using a particular war stategy here—w.r.t to public, not Iraq. I can’t recall the name of it, but the key element is use of scattershot, confusing or even contradictory statements, intentions, etc.
Whatever Bush plans, they have no intention of reconciling their actions with their public statements. There is a corollary one can take from this: we the public are the enemy of Bush. That is why his administration uses strategic disinformation tactics against us. I don’t know how to play against this strategy, because the media has not caught on; without more pointed followup questions which will pin down the administration position of the day, they will continue to get away with completely contradicting themselves from one day to the next.
Any thoughts?

Why did Rove write this to Hadley…..

“When he [Cooper] finished his brief heads-up he immediately launched into Niger.”

…..because Hadley is the administration point man on the Niger forgeries, from inception through the ongoing coverup, and Rove was merely reporting in to him as per co-conspirator protocol.

It’s the coverup AND the crime, and Fitzgerald no doubt realizes this and will follow it to its logical end if possible (I hope I hope I hope I hope….)!

Love,
News Nag

(This comment was posted earlier today also; this is the last time.)

What if Rove (who is a Bushie and hence probably doesn’t get along well with Cheney) decided he was smarter that Hadley/Libby et al and was playing cute with Cooper – sending the email to Hadley to let him know he’d said something (i.e., that Rover was ‘doing a better job’ at smearing Wilson than Hadley was, even though it was Hadley’s job)…it just has all the nasty Rove qualities, and points to tension in the WH…..just wondering/hoping…..

Rayne…or is it Trinity…thanks for your insights. You’ve made it possible to see through the illusion.

Jane, you said:

I have to figure that the white house grills everyone coming out of the GJ or Fitz interviews for every detail.

Wouldn’t you imagine that open communication or inquiry of that kind would be too perilous to undertake?

Everyone has their own attorney. Those attorney have likely advised their clients that any such questioning could put their clients at legal risk. Such questioning could be interpreted later as an attempt to obstruct.

Even more, White House counsel has probably instructed everyone not to ask any questions, for the same reason.

I’m not saying people won’t act against the advise of counsel, but it’s very risky.

Add to this the notion that no one can be sure who around them might already be cooperating, or contemplating cooperation. Today’s confidential conversation could be tomorrow’s on the record testimony. No one can trust anyone around now.

I just don’t think the assumption you’re making, Jane, can be confidently made.

“There’s the world as it is and the world as we’d like it to be.”
– Platoon, 1986

Kitty – your comment is where I’m at as well – I think all the discussion of how this email could have been manuevered assumes that Rove, Hadley and all their buddies went into this assuming the current popular mood and investigation but in reality they were operating within their fog where they could say “Iraq has WMD” and the media, et al bought it (even when there was more credible, publicly available info that that was bs), or pick any other of the many lies they told which were not only bought but applauded by the MSM and the majority of congress (patriot act, etc) If you don’t think anyone is going to question you, you don’t work real hard on the coverup.

Today, we are looking at the whole situation from a completely different vantage point – and assuming they are master criminals using sophisticated means to outfox Fitz when they are really rather incompetent fascist scam artists who were so used to getting away with everything that they didn’t even bother.

two other bits – while I think blogs are creating an amazing momentum that the MSM is now trying to catch up with, we should remember that good blogs were all over the war runup and all these issues back at the start and the MSM ignored them. I think the change comes from the change in poll numbers, driven not by detailed knowledge of the issues, but by popular gut reaction that these guys suck – the war is a failure and we’re losing, the economy is shaky, oil is expensive, big companies are starting big layoffs, the whole Katrina situation is a continuing tragedy, etc etc … people who do not read blogs or particularly care about the details are simply getting fed up with all the failures and saying so in the polls. MSM makes quick turns when the audience for their advertisers shifts perceptions.

This is not to say that I think blogs (and particularly this wondrous place) aren’t very important – educated, thinking analysis hopefully leads us political junkies to take action and provide alternate views which give the popular dissatisfaction a new position to support. But I think we should never underestimate the popular gut reaction to current affairs – the repubs have been so successful until recently precisely because they have tapped into those perceptions, moods, quirks and fed them. Dems get so caught up in wonkery that they often forget to get out the vote as it were.

on emails – CNN on in the background, just had a story about all the documents that Gov Blanko turned over to a Senate investigation and the big story is that she emailed the WH over and over asking for specific help – 5 days later a WH assistant emailed her to say they had never gotten her email and could she resend so they could process it … this WH uses “email troubles” as their excuse for everything!

Just for the blogosphere record, I believe this is the eventual welfare reform article:

http://www.prometheus6.org/node/1635

Guess it was published around rodeo season. Karl must have been the source for the “long wanted” clause. But I can sure see why Cooper wanted to give the WH a “heads up” (what is it we write? snark?)

Now there was an article on the 17th of July that would have been worthy of a heads up call.

More on pardons:
The Framers of the Constitution envisioned the pardon power has having a narrow purpose in times of war and rebellion. The president might offer pardons to rebellious factions as an inducement for a laying down of arms and national reconciliation. Alexander Hamilton argued in the Federalist Papers that “in seasons of insurrection or rebellion, there are often critical moments, when a well-timed offer of pardon to the insurgents or rebels may restore the tranquility of the common wealth; and which, if suffered to pass unimproved, it may never be possible afterwards to recall.”

Myself: In light of this it seems curious that the Founders did not qualify the right of pardon with exceptions in order to avoid abuse. My guess is that there was enough of a residual royalist attitude among the Founders on this issue, since pardon and clemency were considered absolute rights of monarchs and kings.

http://www.igs.berkeley.edu/library/pardon.html

Damn. This is addictive. I hate to miss anything. I’ve dropped off a number of other blogs for this one over the last month. Feel like I have to drag myself away to attend a Dem club meeting…must. go. save. democracy…now…

Great discussion, gang, as always.

Jane,

Thanks for your efforts at keeping our pathetic MSM media honest. IMHO, the sorry state of our media culture is the biggest problem facing America. The Bush administration, the War in Iraq, the corruption… It has all been made possible because our reporters and editors have failed in their role as reliable sentinels of our democracy.

Delicious speculation is the grist of the mill here. Satisfaction is enhanced when the digestive process is complete.

We’ve had a full meal on this one. Everyone can savor the dinner conversation long afterwards.

I would go one step further and work to push forth a constitutional amendment forbidding ALL Presidential pardons.

Why the hell waste taxpayers’ money and prosecutors’ skills, time, and energy at all, when the President can undo all of it on a whim?

Heck, let’s do away with such silly things as courts, judges, juries, and attorneys. Let’s have the President unilaterally make all decisions regarding crime and punishment.

I am floored as to how this EVER got into the Constitution. The President has no business undoing the work of a jury. IMHO, Presidential pardon power should be abolished.

I think it’s high time for a constitutional amendment forbidding a president from giving self-advantageous pardons.
karen allen | 12.04.05 – 1:06 pm | #

I think it’s an important point. I guess my point was more, “what remaining context of the email could we imagine to address all the funkiness” than “we know the email contents.”

The quoted bit is probably correct. The rest may be three sentences saying, “so I think Cooper’s going to give us a bad article on this. Please follow-up while I’m gone. And here are the other journalists we have to call to leak this.”

Although I doubt that, because if it did say that, Rove would be in prison right now.

emptywheel — I’m also no fan of the Hadley flipped theory. He’s out there too publicly, and I have to figure that the white house grills everyone coming out of the GJ or Fitz interviews for every detail. You would have to be an AWFULLY PRACTICED LIAR (though god knows they are) to choreograph something so perfectly that it would be a) plausible and b) capable of being repeated over and over without getting tripped up.

Further, if everyone ELSE is getting grilled and suspicioiusly nobody is being asked about Hadley, it’s going to raise a lot of alarms. They have a lot more pieces to fit into place than we do. I just don’t see someone in that position capable of participating in a day-in, day-out coverup without eventually getting busted.

Stupid question on the subject of impeachment mentioned above. Is there any realistic scenario where, upon the preznit’s impeachment the job would not go to a VP (whether or not that VP is Cheney)? Presumably, even if Cheney is fired or behind bars at the time, the preznit would appoint a VP before the impeachment process is complete. Is there any way for Congress to halt the appointment? Is there a confirmation process? I’m still have a daydream about President Pelosi frogmarching Bushcoites out of WDC

emotywheel: i’m not saying I’m betting on it, but it is among the rather wide universe of possibilities. We could come up with a lot of scenarios.

This gets back to my recurring theme: what we know, or think we know, is not a lot.

neokneme- I read that in the earlier thread. You make an excellent point. I think it may be ignored by some because it reduces the amount of delicious speculation about the email.

As many have said most of the information we have comes from self interested liars.

The funny thing to me is that people here are able to construct logical narratives out of all this, yet neither the NYT nor the WP can.

Me3

Are you sure that guy’s name wasn’t Ted Stevens? He’s the master of sticking stuff in legislation where no one can vote on it.

Actually, I didn’t think The Beard was that bad today (or last week, for that matter.)

The Beard did nail Hadley a few times on the overseas prisons allegations. Wolf asked three follow-ups about the black sites and wouldn’t let him get off spewing mumbo-jumbo. At one point Wolf even said to him (I’m paraphrasing), “So can I confirm from you that we do have secret terrorist prisons in Europe,” to which Hadley replied, “No, you may not.”

The Beard also managed to fact-check Hadley during a question on renditions. Hadley was saying how important it is for the U.S. to be able to send terrorists to other countries to be interrogated when Wolf noted, “You mean terror suspects. Terror suspects.” Wolf asked him a couple of questions about how many innocent people the U.S. has rendered abroad or imprisoned and later let go, and while Hadley didn’t really answer the question, Wolf didn’t let him off easy either.

If you compare the Beard of today with the Beard of last year, he’s much better at fact-checking his interviewees and calling them on their bullshit. And compared to Pumpkinhead Russert, Howie Putz or Tweetybird Matthews, Wolf’s been practically brilliant these last two weeks on Late Edition.

Which is not to say that he’s good. But it seems like his producers have told him it’s okay to go after guests a bit now instead of treating them with kid gloves and letting them spew whatever RNC talking points they want to without being called to account.

You know the pardon clause was slipped into the Constitution with very little debate. It was opposed by a majority of the writers. I forget the guys name, but adding the pardon clause was done during a late re-write, and was not submitted for debate. I forget the guys name who did the dirty deed, but he was a Southener, wealthy slave owner who make a fortune in business… Today he would be a BushCo Republican without a doubt.

One reason I doubt the Hadley flip rule is that he is almost the only one who has close ties to the Cheney and the Bush side of the house. He would not want to betray either.

Also, if Rove is correct that he didn’t tell Novak of Plame’s covert status, than the real IIPA violation was committed by Novak’s other source. I’m not sure I see Fitz using the IIPA violator to roll up the larger conspiracy.

it all comes down to the same thing over and over – they did not expect to have anyone really look into what they did. I remeber when the leak came out – David Corn was up in arms and that is about it. Rove et al thought they were safe in lying to the FBI and oh my goodness they got caught.

Tweety could be Wilson’s second source for this information. Now HE I would believe actually had good information about Rove’s knowledge.

Wow, I need to proofread more carefully. Lot’s of typos there. Sorry.

Grampa: If Hadley was Novakula’s other source, then as you say, it would be more likely for Hadley to flip early.

If Fitzy had Hadley early, then he likely has most of the conspiracy rolled up, and has form some time, and the rest has been due diligence.

Any deal with Hadley would be contingent, and would still not keep him out of jail. Fitzy could offer reduced counts and downward departure requests in exchange for full and ocntinuous cooperation that produces evidence that holds up as further evidence is developed. The deal would also require trial testimony.

Now, if you are Hadley, and you take a deal like that, you have perhaps reduced your longer term, upside risk, but you have not capped it. And your deal is almost certainly contingenjt on you keeping your fat trap shut, so as not to blow the rest of the investigation. If you tip off the other crooks, your deal is off.

So, what do you do? You keep your job, and plod along. If you quit, you’re tipping your hand.

Furthermore, the only reason to do a deal with Hadley, who was perhaps the project manager in the Plame outing, would be to nail someone bigger: probably Cheney, perhaps other cabinet level officials, and perhaps Bush himself as an unindicted co-conspirator.

If this is the case, then Fitzy would need to corroborate what Hadley offers up. Who are the people in the best position to do that, given this set of assumptions?

Libby and Rove. And so Fitzy pursues them, and then nails them for obstruction, perjury, etc. (assuming Rive is headed this way) in order to gain leverage to induce their testimony.

That is where we stand today, if these assumptions hold. Fitzy is trying to corroborate what he probably already knows about the inside working of the conspiracy by putting the squeeze on Libby and Rove.

Grampa –

Here’s some wild speculation: just suppose Hadley’s been cooperating from the get-go, and he knows he will do *some* jail time, but that it will be greatly reduced from what it otherwise would be *IF* he acts as an ad hoc “mole” for Fitzgerald.

If he pulls off the act particularly well, then he would of course accept the promotion (which in itself could end up being “evidence” of the top dogs paying him off for his “good behavior”).

As I said, this is just wild speculation for the heck of it.

karen allen | 12.04.05 – 1:06 pm |

“I think it’s high time for a constitutional amendment forbidding a president from giving self-advantageous pardons.”

Karen, re: Presidential pardons, hereÂ’s and excerpt from: http://www.measuroo.com/Leg-P/Pardon.php

The presidential power of pardons and commutations was controversial from the outset; many Anti-Federalists remembered examples of royal abuses of the pardon power in Europe, and warned that the same would happen in the new republic. The Federalist Papers includes a strong defense of the pardon power. President George Washington granted the first Federal pardons to leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion.
[snip]
Many pardons have been controversial; critics argue that pardons have been used more often for political expediency than to correct judicial error. Perhaps the most famous U.S. pardon in history was the one granted by President Gerald Ford to former President Richard Nixon on September 8, 1974 for official misconduct which gave rise to the Watergate scandal. Polls showed that the majority of American citizens strongly disapproved of this pardon at the time, and Ford’s public-approval ratings tumbled after he pardoned Nixon, and he was narrowly defeated in the presidential campaign two years later. Other controversial uses of the pardon power include Andrew Johnson’s sweeping pardons of thousands of former Confederate officials and military personnel after the American Civil War, Jimmy Carter’s grant of amnesty to Vietnam-era draft evaders, George H. W. Bush’s pardons of six Reagan administration officials accused and/or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra affair, and Bill Clinton’s pardons of convicted FALN terrorists and 140 people on his last day in office.
[snip]

Myself speaking: As you can see, in the cases of Andrew Johnson, and Jimmy Carter, the power or pardon was used as a gestures of healing the wounds of war. In the case of Washington, the amnesty came after quelling civil unrest at home. I think these applications of the pardon were well justified. As to the self-serving ones, for whatever reason, did the founding fathers flubbed in not making exceptions? Maybe they couldn’t agree on what a “self-serving” pardon would be.

It would be a delicious irony however, if Cheney came out and said his draft dodging is covered by Carter’s amnesty.

I’d like to add this Joe Wilson comment to the discussion of whether Rove anticipated the illegality of this leak (and therefore planted the email as exculpatory in July 2003):

Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration. The protracted silence on this topic from the White House masks considerable tension between the Office of the President and the Office of the Vice President.

Assuming Wilson’s sources are competent and privy to this information (Pincus? Who else?), this presumably means that when Rove spoke to Cooper, he didn’t know this was illegal. Now, he’s a crafty bastard, so maybe he deposited evidence that he was innocent just as a normal precaution. But again, there is evidence Rove didn’t know, in July 2003, that he would have to deny this leak.

Thanks, neokneme, you saved me the effort of posting that one.

There is no email. Or, to paraphrase the lesson another “neo” learned, “…Instead, only try to realize the truth: There is no spoon. Then youÂ’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.”

“it is obvious why it is goofy if you think Rove knew he had broken the law by revealing a CIA agent’s name and didn’t want to send a serious message that touched on that, but something deliberately light. If his defense if caught was to be – oooooh I only said this one little thingie – then writing a similarly silly email would be his backup whenever he actually wrote it.”

This is the Rovian MO . . . a web of sneaky “little” lies and falsehoods (as opposed to Cheney and his Big Outright Lies) that are exhausting to prove or disprove.

Pach

I agree we don’t know the content of the email. For all we know, it said, “Al Qaeda determined to strike the US.”

However, if an obviously Rove-linked leak appearing the day before Cooper’s testimony said the email emphasized welfare reform, and it didn’t, that would be about the quickest way to an obstruction and witness tampering charge I can think of.

In other words, Luskin’s leak may not have given us the entire content of the email (for example, I’ll wager when we learn the full content of it, it will have a subject line which makes it incriminating, like the famous PDB). But he can’t have mis-quoted the section he quoted. It was already a transparent attempt to coach Cooper’s testimony. If he mis-quoted the email on top of the timing and content, Rove would already be in jail.

It’d be even more transparent than Libby’s stupid aspen trees.

Missing, is Condi Rice’s name in all of this. You know, Hadley’s old boss at the time of THEeee fastly becoming famous email that was sent by Rove to Hadley concerning Time’s Matt Cooper. I don’t get it.

I’m not confident of any of this. Too many contingencies. IF Hadley is Novak’s original source, then Novak would have named him early, and he probably would have cooperated early. I also agree about him being Woodward’s source, again assuming that he was Novak’s source.

The problem with this theory is that it would put him dead center in this conspiracy: the original leaker, the coordinator, etc. In that case, I don’t see how he could avoid going to jail (he had to know Plame’s job was classified). Yet he gets a promotion and keeps working. I wouldn’t have the stomach for that.

Mrs. K8:

Seems to me the “welfare reform” bit is the fig leaf that gives the reason for Rove to be speaking to Cooper at all. In fact, that is explicitly what the email (as reported) says.

In other words, the fig leaf covers the reason for the conversation, but not the reason for the email. In the email, it’s just context.

Occams razor finally cut me open.

http://www.haloscan.com/commen…..78/#181295>Here is the blood.

Pach and others:

We are actually in agreement! My only point was that the “welfare reform angle” was an extraordinarily asinine fig leaf given Hadley’s position as Deputy NSA. That’s all.

I hadn’t seen anyone else mention that point, and thought I’d toss it in. It would have been a more effective fig leaf if Rove had been writing to someone like Andrew Card. But not Hadley. It’s goofy. Just another aspect that points out what a stupid fig leaf it was, indeed.

HADLEY: We have all at the White House have gotten instructions from the president that we are to fully cooperate with that investigation. And we all are.

“And we all are.”? Right.

it is obvious why it is goofy if you think Rove knew he had broken the law by revealing a CIA agent’s name and didn’t want to send a serious message that touched on that, but something deliberately light. If his defense if caught was to be – oooooh I only said this one little thingie – then writing a similarly silly email would be his backup whenever he actually wrote it.

Course he went too far and it sounds weird, but only in the context of all we know now.

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?65

You can email Wolf Blitzer (the bearded guy) here ^^^

Grampa | 12.04.05 – 1:31 pm

I’m with you on all of that, and I share your suspicion the Hadley is cooperating, though I imagine I am not quite as confident of it as you.

Let me say, form my perspective, it would make sense, and it would not surprise me.

I am also of the opinion that Hadley was Woodward’s source, though not because Rawstory says so. I notice, but do not rely on, reporting from Rawstory.

I tend to think Hadley likely flipped recently, perhaps shortly before or after Fitzmas. Assuming, of course, he flipped at all.

Sorry Pach. I’m reading too fast, just trying to keep up. I generally find your stuff very plausible, which should have tipped me off to read the post more carefully.

I think that the question were debating is ‘how do we explain the weirdness around the Hadley email”.

Why was it given to Fitz late? Why is the wording so goofy? Why does the content contradict Cooper’s testimony?

My answer is that Rove tried a Hail Mary pass in the form of altered email COPY given to Fitz. I am assuming that the original email is a smoking gun.

Meanwhile… out at the White Outhouse..things are piling up.

I hope Al Franken broadens his call for a Constitutional Amendment to prevent sitting cabinet members from the death penalty, not just the Prez. Will nothing wake these evildoers up?

well, Hadley was responsible for those “16 words that Wilson doscredited big time so it makes sense that Rove would let him know he dissed Wilson (of course covering for it by saying it was only in the context of welfare reform. ) I don;t find it too peculiar considering they were all lying about the reasons for war and had to stick together.

The Price of Access

that the Access of Evil?

I think too much is being made of the welfare reform angle. Cooper said he might have left earlier messages that he wanted to talk about welfare reform. Rove therefore knew that Cooper was trying to reach him on that topic. When the call came in, it wasn’t about welfare, but it was a convenient handle by which Rove could get a message to Hadley that he had spoken to Cooper about Niger. He didn’t want to make a big deal of it, and he certainly didn’t want to say in the email that he had used that opportunity to spread the story they had all agreed to spread. To that extent he was being careful. But Hadley knew what he meant. And I’ll wager Hadley has told Fitz this as well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01409.html

This is an interesting article in the WaPo (off the email topic) -

But the evolving structure of public opinion about Iraq is making the current war effort there unsustainable.

That “evolving structure” is us, and things like the letter campaign which adds tone to the anti-war movement that polls alone simply cannot provide.

http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004

^^^ Letters Here ^^^ ;)

We are winning this!!!

Pach is right in that the Email message sounds like a form of “Memorandum of Record” exculpating Rove.

Grampa: I did not buy the grand conspiracy theory involving mass destruction of digital records, either, as I stated rather plainly. Is that the “grand conspiracy theory” to which you refer?

Welfare Reform was likely the code name for the operation to smear the Wilsons and Reform them with damage control. I work in an industry where code names for projects are routine, and are done for secrecy, security, and just to keep things straight.

Future Fed Chairman, however, was the one who spotted this.

Mrs. K8,

You are as usual, right on. I have been tryin ta get folks ta get offa the e-mail red herring. It doesn’t matter whether the e-mail is legitimate er a forgery, there is purgery and obstruction either way…the very existence of the e-mail is another distraction. The public remarks of people involved are nuthin more than messages ta each other, tryin ta coordinate stories and give each other “heads up”. We hafta refocus on the big picture, widenin’ the lens ta include each new obstruction but still tryin ta figure out where we are in the road to the final act – the indictment of Rove, which will stimulate the end game.

so, what are the predictions?

how soon before we here something publicly from the fitster?

Mrs. K8: Redd writes about this in the last thread, as did I.

The reference to welfare reform is Rove’s way of spinning the email for the record to deemphasize the imortance of any Niger related discussion. It’s a fig leaf, a preemptive cover story entered into the record.

Of course Hadley does not care about welfare reform, but the email was not sent to him for that reason. It was a signal that Time had been contacted about the Plame story.

But of course, Karl does not write that. Instead, he writes a coded “by the way” enail that accomplishes his goal but which nevertheless hides its true meaning and intent. The intended audience for the “welfare reform” part was not Hadley, but the digital record.

Pach – I’m with you. We don’t know what it says. We don’t know that it was even sent, much less received. And at the end of the day, it doesn’t really help Rove anyway.

If Rove wanted to explain his change in testimony, wouldn’t it have been better just to say, “I thought about it, and finally I just remembered the call.” Why take a chance on something as easy to check as an email? Even a post-it note found in a jacket pocket would be a better excuse. Withholding or tampering with an email is not only easy to check, but when you’re found out, you’re nailed for obstruction along with lying.

I can’t accept your grand conspiracy theory, laid out in the last thread. Too many people would know.

I can’t explain why it wasn’t found initially, however. Maybe Fitz will fill us in.

taking black welfare queens off the backs of hardworking taxpayers has long been a Republican election myth. Rove has worked that angle in many an election campaign…allegedly the Administration was floating welfare reform as a possible WH initiative and Cooper was sounding them out casually.

Exactly Pachacutec. Only Fitz knows…

I’m more and more inclined to doubt that we have a true story about the nature and full contents of the email.

if the whole wilson smear is indeed a conspiracy complete with malice of forthought, what is the worst case scenario defense plan? play dumb, create plausible deniability, obfusicate, and hope a compliant media and disinterested public carry you through.

the hadley email fits this assumption very well but as in all conspiracies creates problems down the line. reprinting from the previous thread:

it’s possible that rove et al. believed the email to hadley helped them in the espionage/covert identities defenses by painting rove as the passive receiver of plame talk rather than a pusher. now, a year later the email and cooper conversation take on a different significance–post vivak–as a building block in a timeline to avoid obstruction.

a lie that helps you in one crime, hurts you in another…

Mrs. K8 – It makes sense if Hadley was the point man for the press on the Niger story. It’s a by-the-way to explain how Rove happened to be talking to Cooper about Niger.

Pachacutec –

I understand all that. But then why mention welfare reform at all? Hadley has no reason to give a fig about that, or about what ever else Cooper supposedly talked about, or supposedly said he was calling about, if it wasn’t related to national security matters.

It’s just one more way in which the email proves to be strangely contrived.

Blitzer is such an administration shill. I don’t know why he doesn’t just move on over to Faux News and get it over with. Ugly little dwarf.

I’m with trish and Mrs. K8. Not only is there no reason to talk about welfare reform with Hadley, but when has Rove ever talked or cared about welfare reform in any context? Welfare elimination, yes. But reform? It’s incongruous for either man to be interested in the subject.

OT: Whew!

(Giants win)

Mrs. K8:

Presumably because Niger came up, and such matters in the press would concern Hadley. Karl gives him a heads up about what Cooper is sniffing around about. Very helpful, Karl. Team player.

So goes the story.

Mrs. K8–The “welfare reform” topic was only a ploy. Rove isn’t the least bit interested in that.

Mrs. K8, you posted first. I just thought that you had raised a very relevant topic in the last thread.

This country needs a tv show in the format of the McLaughlin Report, only this one would have Jane and Reddhedd as the moderators and some fdl commenters sitting in a semicircle, adding their thoughts and views of the multiple crimes going on in this administration.

There really is no current show to educate the American public like this one would!

tricia –

Sorry, I missed your comment while posting mine.

Gonna repeat my question from last thread, just to let it sink in here.

What was Rove doing emailing to Hadley about welfare reform interviews when Hadley’s role was Deputy National Security Advisor?

Does not compute. Yet another “incongruity.”

The story above this thread quotes Hadley:

HADLEY: I’ve seen press reports of that, the e-mail.

What is that suppossed to mean? First of all, if he is not allowed to comment, then why is he admitting that one exists. Second, he’s seen reports of it? Does that mean that he hasn’t seen a real one?

the alleged wording of that Email has never made any sense to me…

I agree with Mrsk8 in the last thread. Why would Rove email Hadley about welfare reforM?

No matter what way we try to flip this Rubik’s Cube around, the email story is screwy.

Let’s go back to square one: why should we believe that we know the truth of what the email says?

The main thing that is keeping the MSM somewhat awake in the face of these multiple crimes by the administration and their cronies is the advent of bloggers who are showing them up and embarassing them time after time.

i want fitzmas now

I think it’s high time for a constitutional amendment forbidding a president from giving self-advantageous pardons.

There was a time not long ago when the press wouldn’t even have bothered to ask The Email question. Progress in a lazy, Pravda kind of way I suppose. Plus, if Wolfie had actually nailed Hadley on follow-up, then I might have to start actually watching the news again. Until then, I can just rely on you guys. ;-)

let’s go for “BOTH” coz then we can impeach the lil bastard’s ass!

Oh, let’s get too greedy. All we need is ONE branch of the legislature to open up the flood gates of investigations!!!!! : )

Wilson–in the end, I think the option to stopping or punishing his pardons is going to be impeachment. Bush Sr, did a lot of bad things, but he had some honor. Bushboy listens only to God. Sad think is, it’s a god that exists only in his little brain.

let’s go for “BOTH” coz then we can impeach the lil bastard’s ass!

Sam–You have an interesting life. Rats in the walls and a dog that eats shit. lol

“bush is perfectly willing to lose one or both houses of congress, cause he aint changing course”.

Well it’s nice to have him on our side.

Giant’s Feeley misses another field goal, a shortie, for the 4th time in 2 games. Still 17-10 Giants, 5 minutes to a win for Giants.

so finely choreographed that when Hadley defended rendition by saying that it had happened to Carlos the Jackal, his picture flashed on up the screen.

oh hell, i saw that and this point didn’t even occur to me. damn, any further evidence of collusion between the whitehouse and the media is unnecessary.

and watching cspan re hotline panel on gwb presidency — larry sabato just commented that a republican (who shall remain nameless) said to him this past week, that “bush is perfectly willing to lose one or both houses of congress, cause he aint changing course”.

it’s all about the chimp.