Thanks Reddhead! Great writing, great work, great interview. Love your blog…I check it out, oh, about 20 times/day. Keep up the energy…it’s fabulous.

Redd was great on the radio, a real natural. When does she get her own show?

LOL Mrs. K8. Let’s see, I have two signed copies by Margaret Starbird, she has degrees galore: The Woman With the Alabaster Jar and The Goddess in the Gospels.

Also, When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone, and assorted others on history and whatever.

At one time I had Riane Eisler’s The Chalice and the Blade. Many books I pass on and just keep my stack of thick reference material and books that are dear to my heart for some special reason, or like herbology and naturopathy, etc.

Now that we have these here internets my family doesn’t have to drag me out of bookstores or libraries anymore. I usually get a gift card to Barnes n Noble every Christmas, once they learned that, no, I do not care for Steven King or that genre, yegads.

Welcome back Redd – we missed your half of the homepage dialogue. I was thinking of how time consuming it is just to be a lurker and reader of the comments, rare contributor. But you and Jane spend so much more time in your commitment to this enlightened place. Thanks.

This may sound silly – but isn’t Fitz investigating another case involving Richard Perle ? Could Perle be involved in any way?

Shez –

Never read the daVinci business, either. Strictly theology research done in recent decades by well-respected biblical scholars.

There’s one wonderful book I read about the position of women in political/economic realities in the Roman Empire, and how that shifted during those years to a position of much more limited power for women, and how that changed the very dynamic, influential role of women in the fledgling Christian movement.

Wish I could remember the name of the book or the name of the author (a woman biblical scholar and historian)! Perhaps you know it. I would definitely recognize it if I heard it.

While I’ve always been scatterbrained about titles and names (I remember answering a question in written doctoral prelim exams by saying something like “It’s a royal blue book with a black spine and white title lettering, must be an author with a name in the beginning of the alphabet because it can be found on the third shelf from the top in the 2nd row on the far end of the east wing of the library”) — seems to be getting worse with age…

Oh no, not that! Still trying to refuse to get old…

Thanks Mrs. K8 and Norske. Yes to put it simply they “Roved” Mary Magalene in an effective smear campaign. Over power and control, not much has changed since then. It had been the matriarchal custom for centuries that all lands, heirs, and names came down through the matrilineal side, which included the women running the temples, and power in the churches. The men wanted it, they got it by force and oppression.

The one thing they had a difficult time doing was explaining why she is in all 4 gospels. They were forced to let that fact stand, but still rearranged the facts and added more insinuations and lies, Rove tactics again.

In case anyone thinks I got this from The da Vinci Code or something, never read it. I don’t do any fiction books. ;)

Pachacutec: This does not explain, then, why the Rove-Hadley email exists at all. I mean, if you’re going that far to wipe stuff out, why leave a loose end, or even alter an email when you have the ability to wipe it out entirely?

meg: The email was late showing up because they didn’t hand it over at first. I believe that they did not modify the logs or the archives, just what they handed to Fitz. My theory is that Fitz showed them the log or provided another memory prompter and then the Rovians provided the content-altered email.

Pachacutec: This does not fit an alteration theory, since if they only coughed it up when they thought they had to, because Fitz might already have it, then altering it comes too late.

meg: I think that Fitz produced the log which does not contain the email contents. However, I don’t think Fitz tipped his hand about having the email.

Pachacutec: Now, if you think they did the evidence wipe, then discovered the Rove-Hadley email before such time as evidence was turned over to Fitzy, then perhaps they altered it then. Maybe Haldye remembered it, or Rove did, and either of them did a visual inspection of the database. But again, why alter it when they could wipe it out, using NSC technology?

meg: There is a difference between the original logs, the archives and the copies of the logs and the copies of the emails given to Fitz. Altering all of the archives would be difficult and I have never advocated that any archive was altered. I have advocated that the email copy given to Fitz by Rove et al was altered.

Pachacutec: In the end, I doubt anyone took the risk to implement att that digital alteration and/or detruction, even if it were possible to do, given all the backup systems in place.

meg: As noted, I never advocated that the archives were altered. As to the risk involved in giving altered stuff to Fitz, my theory is that the original email to Hadley is such a smoking-gun against Rove, that Rove took a chance that the investigators would not look beyond the original logs to look at the original email. Actually, I think that the investigators did look at the originals and will nail Rove accordingly.

Meg,

Nice theory on changing the body of an email with text having an identical byte-count, but the mail servers store the body of the mail as well as the headers. And the email will be present on multiple servers. Editing the body before giving it to investigators would be easily discovered, so it is really, really unlikely the email was modified in any way.

ReddHedd’s (and Jane’s, I believe) statement that the email was likely created in 2003 as plausible deniability is the most realistic scenario. The other possibility is that the mail is legit, but that Rove/Luskin are desperately scouring every record from 2003 looking for anything that can be spun in an exculpatory matter. Anything that causes the Fitz team to spend another week investigating is useful, because that’s another week that Rove doesn’t have to resign.

it’s also possible that rove et al. believed the email to hadley helped them in the espionage/covert identities defenses by painting rove as the passive receiver of plame talk rather than a pusher. now, a year later the email and cooper conversation take on a different significance–post vivak–as a building block in a timeline to avoid obstruction.

a lie that helps you in one crime, hurts you in another…

oops — should be “leaders of the community.” Not “eaders.”

Ah, did I confuse them with NSA?

new thread (no BlitzKrieg)

Wow Mrs. K8. It’s the simple questions that are always the most important. Great point.

Sam–You have an interesting life. Rats in the walls and a dog that eats shit. lol

the National Security Council is a fairly small office operation of bureaucrats. Changing toner cartridges is the highest level of operational expertise required.

Also, I’m sure there must be a couple of College Republicans to help with the mailbox. I mean Rove used to teach and didn’t even have a degree, according to his page on Wiki.

A simple question regarding Hadley:

Why, oh why would Hadley be interested in hearing about interviews on welfare reform, when his role was Deputy National Security Advisor?!?

I think it was tampered with when given to the FBI early when the Justice Dept. was first asked to investigate, which was immediately after Cooper’s column came out on July 14. When Ashcroft was there.

Shez — Thanks for fighting for the good name of Mary Magdalene. In the early days women functioned as “priests” or the main person who presided at the Eucharist, and who led the local, frequently home-based, church. They were effective eaders of the community!!!

At a later point (100 to 200 yrs down the road) male church leaders were eager to “muscle out” the women who had become quite powerful in the Christian movement in their own right. Cultural/political/economic factors came into play — women were being stripped of other fundamental rights, previously granted by Roman society, at the same time.

It was a quite convenient trick to “smear” Mary Magdalene with sexual innuendo. And that’s exactly what happened. Never mind that it runs counter to all the biblical documentation. It worked. To the detriment of women for many, many centuries (and continuing today).

Shez,

I’m with ya on the Mary M thing. I think some of us use the stereotype outta convenience but I won’t anymore (though the stereotype is perfect fer Mrs. Bullethead).

meg/emptywheel:

I understand the hypothesis, I’m just with Redd in doubting its liklihood and its technical plausibility.

Arguing in favor of your theory is the following scenario:

1. Hadley is with NSC. He is also quarterbacking the Plame campaign.

2. Abu Gonzales delays 13 hours before officially notifying staff of need to preserve.

3. NSC has access to the most sophisticated technology on earth – more than what the FBI has. Hadley uses these resources to wipe out relevent material en masse.

This does not explain, then, why the Rove-Hadley email exists at all. I mean, if you’re going that far to wipe stuff out, why leave a loose end, or even alter an email when you have the ability to wipe it out entirely?

Unless:

4. The Rove-Hadley email slipped through the original evidence wipe. The automated kill command missed it, for whatever reason. They did not have enough time in the delay period to double check everything.

5. The Hadley crew thinks that, as a result, Fitzy might possess the email.

6. Rove coughs up the email when he thinks he has to.

This does not fit an alteration theory, since if they only coughed it up when they thought they had to, because Fitz might already have it, then altering it comes too late.

Now, if you think they did the evidence wipe, then discovered the Rove-Hadley email before such time as evidence was turned over to Fitzy, then perhaps they altered it then. Maybe Haldye remembered it, or Rove did, and either of them did a visual inspection of the database. But again, why alter it when they could wipe it out, using NSC technology?

Actually, it may be plausible that NSC would have the technology to destroy digital records and signatures in a way the FBI would not detect. But if they had all that know how, and had applied it, why would we know about the Rove-Hadley email at all?

In the end, I doubt anyone took the risk to implement att that digital alteration and/or detruction, even if it were possible to do, given all the backup systems in place.

OT: another damn missed field goal by NY.

Good indicator that Rove is going down like
a rat trap on his neck. The rat running in my
walls last night has been killed in the trap.
Big fat one like Rove. It is just wonderful
all these posts doing an autopsy on Rover’s
RAT BRAIN. He’s got that cunning slimy
slinky, nasty mean demeanor hanging out in
the underside of the Bush where sewer-sludge
and garbage heaps abound. Rove had street
smarts but as we now see he gave Fitz
doctored e-mails. Not too bright. He’s not
jumping the sinking ship. He’s going down
with the rest of the Rat Nest Cabal.

FWIW about the emails, I also think (want to believe) that the good FBI investigators did their own search of the emails before Fitz was on board.

So, Fitz had the real emails to compare with what Gonzales gave him.

Since karen allen wrote: “but this is a guy who doesn’t care as long as he imagines God influenced him to grant the pardons”

am going to take the opportunity to observe a possible similarity between the current WH and something that happened during Iran-contra.

After spending some time Google-ing and coming up empty I’m going to have to go on memory. But as I recall, either in the Tower Report, SSCI report or, most likely, the Select Committee hearings, someone asked a WH official testifying about whether it was a ‘good idea’ for Reagan to watch the Buckley torture video. Don’t remember the response, but the impetus behind the question was that viewing the video may have unfavorably affected Reagan’s POTUS decision making ability.

Fast forward to Jr.

As best I can tell Jr. takes his information from his current closest advisors and then goes for a walk and lets God tell him what he should do. I’m pretty sure this isn’t much of a secret to the innner and second inner circle again the WH.

Given this is how the “CEO” POTUS operates and that it isn’t much of a secret to the neocons in the Cheney circle (I still consider Cheney part of the Cheney/DoD/oil axis) hasn’t it been remarkably easy for Jr. to be manipulated by his relatively uncomplicated psychology?

Sorry. Next post will be more pertinent to the issues at hand.

Norske, I love ya, but you guys have GOT to stop maligning the real Mary Magdalene. She’s my confirmation name even though I’m no longer Catholic, I have studied her for years and have stacks of books on the subject of her. NOWHERE in the ancient texts nor any of the modern mistranslated bibles is there one shred of proof that she was a ‘prostitute’. Even the supposed sins cast out of what they attribute to her is untrue and misunderstood.

Any linguist worth their salt will swiftly tell you that many words like heirodulae which means “sacred woman or holy woman”, were deliberately mistranslated by Peter and other church fathers to try to destroy the temples of the Great Mother Goddess religion.

Mary Magdalene was a wealthy patroness, a holy woman, and the First Apostle, her Book of Mary is in the Nag Hammadi library. In mystic circles she is known as the twin flame of Jesus, she is a holy of holy woman. To include her name in that vile group of people is a grave error. To perpetuate she is a prostitute is a grave sin.

Sorry for a sunday sermon but it outrages me to no end. I always speak up for injustices and for her and her sacred Order of the Magdala I will forever continue to step up in her needed and needless defense.

Good morning, all! (Or rather, good afternoon! Had a bad night, got to sleep at dawn.)

Speaking of barfing, I’ve got some weird sort of stomach bug. Have managed to ward off the actual act, but the threat hovers off and on.

Well, I’m probably giving more info than anyone might want, but I want to explain to those who were nice enough to wave and say *Hi!* last night why it was I never responded.

Will try to participate as much as possible, but if you don’t see me for a bit, it’s not ’cause I dropped off the face of the earth.

Love this place, love all the comments, enjoy the company of wonderful people here (except for the occasional sticking out sore thumb troll) and am ever so grateful for our hosts and their brilliant work — and to blog from a vacation devoted to organizing a family party, whilst coping with barf matters, well, that’s just above and beyond the call of blog duty! I tip my hat again, Redd!

I am not qualified to even ask questions about this investigation and the details — I just read in awe of everyone’s analysis. Brains moving at warp speed is a site to see.

but I AM qualified to talk about kids (and grandkids) spewing forth in cars and elsewhere. For the car, a ice cream bucket is what I use. Even 2 yrs old can grab the bucket. I always keep an extra blanket in the car, just in case the car seat has reason to be coverred so trip can proceed.

And I, too, have been in a hotel room with a 2 yr old. It can be gruesomely tiresome. I brought 3 brand new movies with me, and 4 books he had not read.

but worst of all, is being in an airpot after a long flight, waiting for luggage. Every kid with gumption, having sat still for 3-4 hours (being still is relative), wants to run wild given the large baggage area. Oh my, what a disaster that was.

Sorry for the OT, back to your regularly scheduled investigative crime fighters.

recall that Cooper said Fitz explicitly questioned him thoroughly in front of the G.J. about whether welfare reform was discussed in any way with Rove. To me that indicated that Fitz was deliberately demolishing Rove’s testimony…

EW — had a thought after reading RonK’s suggestion at the thread you reference.

Given the GAO’s findings on the election process, how about a recall?

As citizens, we reserve the right to retract our consent to be governed – Tenth Amendment, I think…hmm?

I think it more likely that Rove knew Cooper was working on a welfare reform story and used it as a convenient plausible detail for deniability — just in case someone actually looked into things. It’s just the sort of sneaky, manipulative thing I would expect from Rover trying to cover his own ass.

this seems most likely to me. forging emails brings a whole other layer of conspiracy into the situation that the conspirators would avoid. i can easily see the rat-fucking rove building his defense on smaller, easier to pass lies like a brief mention of welfare reform.

if this is indeed one of the smaller lies he would try to use, how will fitz likely use it against rove? can fitz bust open rove’s whole defense with this small attempt at obfusication that rove thought no one would ever nail down?

Pachacutec,

Let me try and answer your concerns:

1. There is a difference between the email logs, the archived copies of the emails AND the copies of the emails given to Fitz.

2. emptywheel and I think that the email logs were NOT tampered with

3. I don’t think that the archived copies were tampered with

4. I do think that the copies given to Fitz were tampered with twice

5. The first tampering occured when the smoking-gun evidence was deleted from the material given to Fitz.

6. The second tampering occured when the CONTENTS of the Rove-to-Hadley email was rewritten.

So, to answer your concerns, the copies given to Fitz were altered. That’s easy enough to do. Gonzales did not give Fitz every email in the WH system. So, Gonzales was picking and choosing email.

In the later case, they just had to copy the original email and edit it. Of course, with the contents editing they had to make sure that the number of email bytes were identical to the original, i.e the number of characters had to be the same. I think the editing for size made the email weirdly worded.

Reddhedd: Congratulations on your official arrival as a radio pundit. I’m just thrilled that you’ve concentrated your efforts at FDL so I no longer have to search for your pearls of wisdom by sifting through the comments on the … “erm” … less polite and intelligent sites.

Thanks, Wilson. This sure is a mystery.

Well, it’s another beautiful day in Seattle (cool, damp, gray), so I’m going to do something else for a while. Bye.

I don’t doubt for one second that Rove would have no ethical qualms about faking or doctoring email. But as Wilson says upthread, he would have to have lower level accomplices with deep and extremely specific knowledge of the WH system to do that, and that would mean having too many accomplices who can hang him. Rove has always been careful not to leave tracks that can implicate himself. If there is email fraud here, it has to be by some other means that doctoring existing email.

Can he insert a new and pre-dated email to make it look like it was sent earlier? Even here, the real date/time stamp would be in the header no matter what the body of the letter says. So they would have to fake that and also insert it into the archives. Highly implausible scenario.

Giants 17-10. Cowboys take advantage of Manning pick in Cowboy territory. Cowboys showing some signs of life. If the Giants and the Colts go all the way, it will be the first time two quarterback brothers face each other in the Super Bowl. For the Colts sake I hope they make it because Coach Dungy deserves better than he has gotten so far.

RH (and Wilson):

I guess my point is somewhat different. Let’s assume that obstruction has happened in one way, as is almost certain. Either some bureaucrat refused to turn over an email that was responsive to a subpoena. Or someone tried to electronically alter an email so it wouldn’t show up in an electronic search of that email.

It seems to me, the former is much easier to find than the latter. Particularly since VandeHei claims the investigators did a search of email, we should be able to assume that if there was an email that was digitally responsive, the investigators would have found it. We should also be able to assume that this email, which has probably been scrutinized pretty closely, in paper and digital format, would reveal signs of tampering, if it had been tampered with. One way or another, the only way Rove has gotten away with his obstruction is if the email tampering is VERY good–not likely.

But my point is, if you’re going to tamper with something anyway (as Rove almost certainly did with the phone logs), then you’re going to do what will be discovered last. You’d opt for the digital fix over the bureaucratic fix, because the investigators would have to first find the email and then find the evidence of tampering.

Also, from The Village Voice,
snip:
The new information, that Ashcroft had not only refused to recuse himself over a period of months, but also was insisting on being personally briefed about a matter implicating his friend, Karl Rove, represents a stunning ethical breach that cries out for an immediate investigation by the Department’s Office of Professional Responsibility and Inspector General.”

“It would have been a nightmare scenario if Ashcroft let something slip to an aide or someone else they had in common with Rove . . . and then word got back to Rove or the White House what investigators were saying about him,” says a former senior Justice Department official, familiar with the matter.

Although not reported at the time, when Ashcroft recused himself from the Plame investigation, Deputy Attorney General Comey said in a statement that the A.G.’s personal staff was also being fully recused in the matter.

The combination of Ashcroft’s close relationship with Rove, the omission of critical information from the FBI by Rove during his initial interview with agents, that Ashcroft had been briefed about that interview in particular, and the-then recent appointment of Comey, all allowed for a forceful case being made by career Justice Department employees be made that the attorney general should step aside and a special prosecutor be named.

http://www.villagevoice.com/ne…..861,2.html

from an Email system’s perspective, a draft Email unsent is merely another kind of Email. It’s all on the server! An initial cursory internal WH Email search might not have considered looking at unsent drafts. It’s a possibility…

Redd and ew, right. its still early for me on a Sunday. :-) ..need..more..coffee.

I guess I’m trying to figure out if item #18 from the Libby indictment was related in any way to what they were trying to declassify. But again, need more coffee.

Odd that nobody asked Hadley any good questions this morning on the MSM talk shows. Probably would have been pointless with the “not talking about an ongoing investigation” line being continued.

Isn’t this damaging? Hasn’t the president been hurt? I didn’t take the bait, but I said if I were him I wouldn’t get “TIME” far out in front on this. I didn’t take the bait.

Try substituting the word Plame for the word Time. You’d have to change a couple of letters, if you could…….

Hey Jane –

Am hanging with my barfing toddler while my hubby ran out to do laundry. It’s a lovely trip. SIGH I can’t get back home and blogging fast enough. Apologize to Kobe for me for breaking up his morning routine.

Wilson–But we all know that Bush is already unwise and getting unwiser. (Snark)

CaseyL

There IS one way to prevent Bush from pardoning people.

As RonK suggested, we could also impeach the people found guilty of this crime. (You CAN impeach lesser figures, in addition to Veep and POTUS). You can’t be pardoned after being impeached.

ew — to be honest, I think Wilson might be better suited to answer the tech aspects of this question. But I do know that the forensic folks that I have worked with were able to do a lot of reconstruction on any sort of alteration — be it deleted, masked or altered photos or documents. (Including cached chat logs — we saw that a lot with kiddie porn cases.)

I would assume a lot of the same techniques for that would translate to e-mail questions and internal servers, but I think Wilson and some of the other tech folks would be much better suited than me to answer the how of it.

Sam,

The obstruction and conspiracy to obstruct are gunna include a bunch a folks, Abu, Hadly, Rove, Libby, Luskin, Miller, Mary Magdalene , the old press secretary, Millar, Woodhead, Novak and whoever it waz that cleansed the phone logs.

This thing is very close ta breakin wide open…the race is on between who’s gunna get there first ta flip, Rove er Libby. All the obstruction and misdirection lately is jest part of the delay-game…when the Rover flips then the real case starts fer Fitz.

only amending the U.S. Constitution can legally prevent the President from issuing pardons. Political, social or religious power can make it unwise…

Bob Adams–OJ didn’t pay nearly as much as people are led to believe, in fact, just a pittance. He moved to the State of Florida which generously protects individual assets from court judgments. His huge pension investment benefits are protected, as is his home and special funds for his children. He’s leading a good life, as he sees it.

I posted this near the end of the last thread. I wonder if the technical folks here could answer my questions on the possibility that Rove’s email was a draft, but was never sent to Hadley:

Morning, everyone.

There may be a good theory in Mack’s error, i.e., thinking it was a draft email.

If it was only a draft and never sent (whether it was genuine or fabricated), could that explain the mystery of why it wasn’t found on Hadley’s end? Indeed, could that explain why it wasn’t found by WH document clerks in the first place, but rather only through Luskin’s own search?

Is it possible that drafts are NOT stored on the server? Is it likely that drafts were NOT searched? Someone may want to research whether a draft email constitutes a document under Federal public records laws, or whether there is some legal theory under which a draft email would be deemed non-responsive to the subpoena (I’ll look upthread in a minute — the document request language is laid out there).
Grampa | 12.04.05 – 10:34 am | #

——————————————————————————–

I just looked at pollyusa’s helpful material. It would be pretty difficult to argue that unsent emails fall outside the parameters of the documtne requests. They may not be “records” as that term is defined elsewhere, but they would certainly be in the nature of notes and memoranda.

However, if the draft were not stored on a central server, it is certainly possible that Rove might have withheld it, and that it therefore wouldn’t have been found.
Grampa | 12.04.05 – 10:43 am | #

Wilson:

In addition to what Cooper says about something being declassified, Novak said:

The story, actually, is whether the administration deliberately ignored Wilson’s advice, and that requires scrutinizing the CIA summary of what their envoy reported. The Agency never before has declassified that kind of information, but the White House would like it to do just that now — in its and in the public’s interest.

This seems like a very clear reference to the CIA report on Wilson’s trip, which we know did not include a reference to Plame (or even, to Wilson by name).

Okay, back. Dogs needed some quality time this morning. I CAN’T WAIT FOR REDD TO GET BACK!!!

Can you tell?

Rove operated in an atmosphere of nearly absolute power. Rules and laws mean nothing to him. The end justified the means.
karen allen

these fucking people subverted the democratic process and since their installation by the supreme court have done everything to undermine any institution necessary to the democratic process — the legislative, the judiciary and the media.

(also, just as a primer, keep in mind rove’s self-bugging incident years ago — where he most certainly lied to law enforcement officials.)

Oh, hell.

“Sights” not “sites.”

I can’t believe I made that mistake.

Wilson–Yes, he would be rebuked and reviled, but this is a guy who doesn’t care as long as he imagines God influenced him to grant the pardons. He’ll go to the Crawford former pig farm after his term ends, completely insulating himself forevermore.

The horrific criminals cannot be allowed to receive pardons.

karen allen – We can’t do diddly. The President’s power to pardon is absolute.

IIRC, there is only one set of circumstances limiting that power, and that’s if the President him/herself is under investigation – and I’m not even sure of that.

In any case, I’ve seen not a single hint anywhere that Fitzgerald has Bush himself in his sites. So Bush can pardon anyone he wants to, at any time.

But a pardon doesn’t get someone out of civil charges. I haven’t heard anything about the Wilsons’ threatened civil suit in a while, but the last I did hear was that they’re poised to file one as soon as Fitzgerald is done. Esp. once Valerie formally resigned from the CIA, and they can add those damages (loss of professional reputation and income) to the list.

RH

Can you comment on which would be easier to find, emails that haven’t been turned over, or an email that had been altered?

If we assume obstruction happened one way or another, which would take longer for investigators to prove?

For example, if they were brought in to do their own scan (and VendeHei seems to say they did), they would find the responsive email. But would that scan necessarily net the ALTERED email? Or would they need to have the specific email in hand to discover that it had been altered?

Sorry, I think I have missed something somewhere, Which CIA report on Wilson’s trip would have been de-classified, when?

I caught Reddhead on the Charles Goyette show on Friday and found her to be interesting, well spoken and informed.

“Ok, so the indicted folks are disgraced. But no jail time, no fines, etc. because of the pardons…

Other than with letters and petitions, how do we prevent this from happening?”

I don’t think a pardon exempts a person from a civil suit. I’m sure Valerie Wilson will at least have a helluva lawsuit against the perps. Look at OJ Simpson, found Not Guilty of murder, yet forced to pay nearly all of his assets to the families of his victims.

It ain’t jail, but if it hurts ‘em, go for it.

it’d be easy to pardon a mere perjury charge but pardoning espionage charges would brand a President throughout all history. Bush would be rebuked and reviled irrevocably…

Reddhedd–Right, I think Rove is quite capable of getting experts to do his dirty computer altering for him. On the other hand, I hope the people working with Fitzgerald can detect those alterations.

Norske – I feel your pain, but I think there’s a need to hash over the technological implications for other reaons. First, to let lurkers know we are watching THAT closely (don’t even think about it, we’re on to you). Second, to check the community’s abilties at large for the skills we need in vetting tech issues (Wilson makes the go-to list on this, for example). Thirdly, technology is going to come up in other aspects of this investigation and the Abramoff investigation, of this I’m sure; are rats scrambling to CYA even now? Lastly, hashing over the tech stuff has flushed out some other material.

Bear with us, okay? There’s bound to be geeks online, after all. ;-)

Speaking of other material (non-technical)…this Orwellian “Welfare Reform” bit makes me wonder what the chances were that Cooper discussed this topic with editorial staff or colleagues prior to having a conversation with Rove. Would a phone call log note subject “welfare reform” have tripped Rove to use this…or did a mole come up with this? What’s the chances?

Even if Fitzgerald gets massive indictments and convictions, what’s the value of any of it if Bushboy gives all of them pardons, which he is likely to do? Bushboy will say that God told him it was the thing to do. He may not even wait until the last day of his term.

Ok, so the indicted folks are disgraced. But no jail time, no fines, etc. because of the pardons. Years of investigative work and millions of taxpayer dollars negated with the pardons.

Other than with letters and petitions, how do we prevent this from happening?

Karen — I’m certainly not saying that Rove is above cheating and obstructing. I’m just saying it would be awfully difficult to get away with it, given my experience with the investigators who do computer reconstruction work for the FBI. I’ve seen their work in completely reconstructing a hard drive that had been partially burned in a kiddie porn case, along with a lot of other truly astounding cases, and I’m putting my money on the forensic guys, no matter who Rove may have “hired” to do his dirty work. (And fwiw, if he did something like that, that’s another conspiracy to obstruct layer of charges, just FYI. I just don’t have any evidence one way or the other that Rove tried anything.)

Any info as to when V.Novak and B.Woodward
are going to testify at the grand jury?
Does anybody think that Abu Gonzales will
get caught in the net of obstruction or perjury
due to the time lapse on his watch?

tryggth — ew is absolutely correct that Valerie Wilson’s identity and involvement in the Wilson/Niger trip (such as it was) would not have been the portion declassified. The NOC list is guarded very closely, especially with someone who had ongoing investigative efforts and networks on WMD issues at a time of war. (Not that any of that mattered when it came to political payback for Libby and Rove, but hey! Who wants a government that consistently works for the good of the nation as a whole instead of just for maintaining their own political power. Erm…)

Go blue state, 17 x 0, keep pushing them to San Miguel Aliende.

And if I had to pick a single person on earth to switch from “Axis of Evil” to “Our New Friends the Iranians”, it would be that simple-minded liar, George Bush.

I wonder if Rush is still demonizing Iran?

Rayne,

My frustration with all our scolastic-like speculatin’ about the e-mail is that it distracts an old guy like me who has only 3 brain cellz left. I want to keep the larger body of the investigation and criminal process in focus…instead a tryin ta figure out the details of the obstruction, conspiracy and purgery as those expand, let’s let Fritz mess with the details and step back and try ta figure how this advances the ball toward the enevitable indictment of Rover-dog. That’s why I asked the question about the “backdoor”, I think it is clear that Rove is nailed for purgery, conspiracy to obstruct and obstruction and Luskin is jest spinnin fer time ta make a deal.

Regarding Rove altering the email, I think you’re doing thinking based on your own ethics. Here’s my theory from the last thread:

We have seen to what lengths BushCo and allies will go, murder included, a la Abramoff. Rove had at his disposal, either from large corporations or other entities, skilled computer experts, the world’s best that money can supply. The corporate heads are eager and willing to supply the experts to Rove. And Rove is desperate, absolutely desperate.

He brings in the computer guys, tells them to eliminate emails A-W, which they do. Only snag is that a couple of guys on the White House staff, Hadley included, have started singing to Fitzgerald. Rove hears by whatever means that Hadley disclosed that one email to Fitzgerald, so he and Luskin come up with that stupid story of “recalling” the email Hadley has already revealed.

Rove operated in an atmosphere of nearly absolute power. Rules and laws mean nothing to him. The end justified the means.

tryggth

Plame’s status was probably NOT what they were going to declassify. Novak also alludes to the declassification in his July 14 column, and he says pretty clearly they were going to declassify the CIA report on Wilson’s trip. Which wouldn’t have mentioned Plame at all.

With Europe breathing down the US’s back on secret prisons and Blair looking increasingly wobbly, there is exactly one place the US can turn: Iran. If we make nice-nice with Iran, get Iran’s help in “putting down” the Sunni insurgency (torturing, murdering, raping, imprisoning), lock up some juicy fossile fuel concessions, everything instantaneously comes up roses for Bush et al.

It is the only solution that makes sense. If Bush is on a state visit to Tehran, the Hadley e-mail suddenly looks a hell of a lot like dog bites man.

There are a bunch of tidbits floating around that Fitz is probably going to tie up in “speaking” indictment.

- “welform reform” : After reading fdl, emptywheel at nexthurrah and others in the comments (including reviewing Cooper’s post-testimony writing) it appears that Cooper is as mystified about the “welform reform” reference as anyone. However, I’m starting to think that during the coordination phase the opportunities were identified along with the entrees to the conversation.

- “nepotism” : Miller’s recitation regarding Fitz’s questioning included a somewhat stark sentence (perhaps intend for Libby): “Mr. Fitzgerald asked me whether Mr. Libby had mentioned nepotism. I said no.” Fitz is sitting on a WHIG document or testimony concerning the general damage control plan. The question was purely intended to derive evidence that the activity was a part of a coordinated plan.

- Rove possibly thought Plame’s status would be declassified.

- Email disclosure, or an evolving selective portion disclosure may have a evolving declassification component.

- One or both of the two points immediately above may be related to the seemingly needless oblique reference in the Fitzgerald Nov. 18th document: “(Because it is far easier for the parties and the court to deal with declassified materials than to deal with classified information, we will be seeking a classification review wherever appropriate, though those reviews can be cumbersome.)” Parenthesis in original

I’m still disinclined to think the mail was actually altered, but hey, anything is possbile. However, I am inclined to think that Hadley has told Fitz that he doesn’t remember a mention of “welfare reform” in the e-mail from Rove.

“Crotch fruit”? Jeebus. I’m all for vivid language but let’s not work too hard at it, kay?

Pach,

As I’ve shown, they wrote backed-up communications about smearing another person–a smear that almost certainly included illegal leaks. You need to remember that this was really just par for the course for these guys–they had already done similar campaigns, and we ought to be able to refer to those similar campaigns to figure out how they operate.

And in the past, yes, they did write up communication to coordinate their smear.

Also, is there a different weight on the obstruction of removing a relevant email from submitted documents or changing the email after the fact? That is, one way or another, it’s pretty clear that obstruction occurred. Which way would Rove be likely to do it?

Particularly given the VandeHei tidbit that the investigators did the sort, it seems like the relevant content couldn’t have been in the email.

emptywheel:

You are then assuming they would write candid, backed-up communications with each other about a criminal act. Unless you believe they did not know they were engaged in criminal activity, which I doubt.

NYBri — Jane is awesome. :) And I’m sure she’s completely exhausted. We were hoping for a slower news week for my trip time, but alas for Jane, it was not to be. Guess it’s tough to have a slow news week with so many Republicans either being indicted, about to be indicted, or being considered for indictment. hehehehehe “Um, schadenfruede hotline? I need an emergency 64 pack.”

And thanks for the nice comments on the show. It was much fun — and Charles Goyette was fantastic to work with, truly up on all the facts and news, and a joy to talk to about the issues. Have to say, it was awfully fun to hear some voices of some of our readers — that was the best part for me.

No, Pach.

My theory requires that, as Rove did with Libby and Libby did with Rove, Rove would faithfully communicate the status of teh Plame leak to Hadley. We KNOW they were sharing this news, faithfully. And we KNOW they were sharing whether or not they thought these journalists would write the story.

It is unlikely that Rove would include the welfare reform detail to Hadley, given the timing. He certainly wouldn’t present it as he did, as the primary purpose of the call, since all evidence suggests it wasn’t the prime purpose of the call. He was on the way out the door, he would have been succinct. “Cooper onto Plame leak. If we declassify the CIA report, make sure he receives a copy.”

Thanks for checking in ReddHedd, we miss you, tho Jane has been doing an excellent job holding the fort. Kudos to both of you!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10…../newsweek/

It’s looks like the propaganda is the story from last week that has gained traction and is taking hold.

It’s interesting because subversion of the media is the biggest problem with taking down political corruption. I have been complaining about it my letters to the press for several weeks, repeatedly using strong words like propaganda and jingoism… Words so strong most of the press would not use them… I see them in print all over now… A very good sign!!!

Keep up the good work people, keep sending letters!!!

http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004

P.S. Yes I did change my username from Me to Me3 because I was “two” late beating shez in responding “Me2″ when it was posted how much we love FDL ;)

Halftime. I need to go to the supermarket. My turn to cook.

Be back later.

LOL Rayne, yes my dad always said you spend the first 3 years teaching your kid how to walk and talk..and the next fifteen how to shut up and sit down.

“how far in is Rove, for perjury and/or obstruction?”

Oh it’s got to be all that and hopefully about 20 more charges, just for good measure for that little mutant freak of nature.

Wilson – you genious.

cheers,

Oh, and it is my understanding that the WH does use the centralized server for internal e-mails and such. Which would make it quite difficult to do any alterations without leaving a trail. Having worked with the white collar crime FBI folks who do hard drive and computer reconstructions, I’d put my money on their forensic capabilities if and when such an attempt was tried. Truly, I think it would be very, very difficult to get away with either a hard drive wipe (as was floated out about Libby some time ago, but never fully substantiated, so it’s still strictly rumor mill) and/or an attempt to fake an e-mail (a la Rove/Hadley in the current speculation).

I think it more likely that Rove knew Cooper was working on a welfare reform story and used it as a convenient plausible detail for deniability — just in case someone actually looked into things. It’s just the sort of sneaky, manipulative thing I would expect from Rover trying to cover his own ass.

hadn’t Cooper been trying unsuccessfully to reach Rove precisely about welfare-reform all week but when he finally got through, he was all about Niger. Rove knew Cooper had originally wanted to discuss welfare-reform so it was natural to use that topic as a ‘cover’ for the Email informing Hadley about ‘taking the bait’.

According to Cooper’s Time article Rove knew Cooper was working welfare reform from a call several weeks earlier, but Rove did not return the call.

IMHO, he used the welfare reform bit in the email for cover. Never thinking Cooper would testify, the call from Cooper still needed to be explained. However the “don’t get to far out on Niger” is code to Hadley that Cooper had been spun. I don’t buy that Cooper was trying to snow Hadley.

Giants 10-0.

Redd: well that’s a detail I had not known, but it gets to my point.

Emptywheel’s theory requires that Rove could have had no knowledge of Cooper’s welfare reform interest until September 22, while I am arguing that it ain’t necessarily so.

Bob Adams: I don’t like the red, either. Blue, blue, blue.

Hey, Redd–er…christy

You sound great on the show. Hope the remainder of the trip goes smooth…and Jane has been doing a fab job keeping things moving…although mucho work, i would imagine.

ew — good catch! I think Cooper talked about that a bit in his detailed recap of his g/j testimony. I’m dealing with a sick toddler and don’t have the time to find my link to it — or I’d pull it up and re-read and e-mail you the bit I think I recall. (Man, trying to do everything out of your brain without your research notebooks sucks. But travelling with a suitcase full of printed documents seemed a little too anal, even for me. lol)

emptywheel: yes I saw that in your write-up, but it is still possible that Rove learned Cooper was working on a welfare reform story during their conversation.

I concede the concurrence you highlight is suspicious, but overall I remain skeptical that the email alteration you describe is technically feasable in a way that won’t stick out like a sore thumb. I have some technology clients and a layman’s understanding of these things, but that’s my current disposition.

OT: Pach, whaddya think of the Giants’ red uniforms? Sacrilege, if you ask me…I’ve bled Giants Blue for too many years to change.

BINGO!!!!

Matt Cooper’s welfare reform story appears for the September 22 issue.

Pretty good timing for a coverup.

And it’d likely be fresh in Turdblossom’s brain at the time he was setting up his coverup around September 28.

Pach — as I recall, the Cooper conversation was a result of a series that Cooper was working on regarding welfare reform that he had been trying to call Rove about well before that initial call. My thought is that Rove recalled that series of conversation attempts from Cooper and used it as a detail to add some plausible deniability to his e-mail to Hadley. I’d say that I trust Cooper’s recollection far more than Rove’s on this. And Cooper’s testimony before the grand jury story was very clear that Rove was all about Niger and Wilson when he came on the phone — with no recollection of the welfare issue coming up.

My favorite bits were the Rove statements that the information about Wilson and his wife would be declassified soon (which to my mind is an admission against interest that Rove understood that this information was on the “not to be disclosed” level, and was discussing it with a reporter anyway because it suited his particular political purpose) and his “I’ve already said too much.” indication of guilt about doing so.

It’s going to get very interesting over the next few weeks, I must say. Can’t wait to get home to my popcorn popper and the blog. I’m dying here. ;-)

Pach

In his testimony, Cooper says he DID write the welfare reform story … two months later. September (I’m trying to find the exact date). Precisely the time that Rove and Novak and Libby were fixing their stories.

Rove knew Cooper was working on a welfare reform story. At precisely the time he would have first thought about falsifying this email.

OT: FG Giants, 10-0 lead

Sorry to hear about the barfing incident, Redd; my condolences, mother to mother. Bad news: you’re on the hook for another 10+ years; good news: a school-aged kid can learn to use a barf bag, as demonstrated only too recently in a recent car trip here. Look forward to reading your next post.

Norske — it’s a two-fer, not just that the email exists. The existence goes to obstruction; the content and context goes to perjury. Hence all the detail-surfing about the email: how far in is Rove, for perjury and/or obstruction?

the contents of a WH Email are just as bullet-proof to alteration as the headers. It would take a major N.S.A.-level effort to possibly be successful. Even WH sysadmins themselves couldn’t do it.

emptywheel: the potential flaw in your point #1 is this:

Rove wants to get the Plame information out there, show his worth to the other ratfucks, but is on the way out the door.

Ralston tells him there’s a Time reporter on the line.

“What does he want to talk about?”

“Niger”

“Ok, I’ll take it.”

Call completed.

Rove writes deceptive email with welfare reform cover story.

Now, the flaw here is that Rove would know that Cooper had been doing any work on welfare reform during that time frame if it had not come up in their conversation.

Perhaps it did come up (”Whate else are you working on, Matt?” — “Welfare reform.” — “Okay, well get back to me on that when I return from vacation.”). After all, Cooper’s article says he does not remember any talk of welfare reform, but he does not foreclose the possibility.

Hotel check-in. We had a toddler barfing incident last night — man, I’m going to need a vacation from my vacation — but things are much better. The hubby is out doing laundry (including the carseat cover) while we hang out and watch cartoons. Needless to say, I’m jonesing for some serious blog time, so I thought I’d log in and say howdy to everyone. Honestly, can’t wait to get back to the blog — the trip has been exhausting, but the 50th annivesary party went off without a hitch. :) No indictments from Fitz until I’m back on Tuesday…

Oh, cool! The other day I started listening to Redd’s segment online, and got called into work just after she agreed to reveal her name…the NYC affiliate of Air America didn’t carry the show, so I was bumming.

After the Giants-Dallas game I’ll go listen to it. Well, maybe after the Patriots-Jets game after that…

…aw hell, I’ll get to it tomorrow!

And go Jints! :)

Maryz,

Is there an echo in here, the e-mail is the nuklear explosion in this investigation…it matters not whether the thing is forged or what encoded message is contained there-in. The fact that the e-mail exists at all confirms obstruction and conspiracy to obstruct…there is no way that this e-mail can mitigate for Rove in any of this. The reason that Luskin is spinnin so fast and throwin so much at the walls as they close in on him and his client is that Rove is completely hooked…Luskin is doin anything ta try and postpone the inevitable.

I wonder where the backdoor is through which Luskin is negotiatin’ a plea with Fitz.

I can’t watch the game live: I’m in espn Internet gamecast, which is quirky.

Grr. Giants give up interception while in red zone. . . Another squandered opportunity.

Wilson — thanks much, was hoping somebody w/ M$ could speak to that. I’m betting that’s what they use.

Can you respond to the theory proposed above — that the content of an existing email was altered — and what implications might be?

FWIW, my latest (kindly linked by Pacha–I’ll root for the Giants for you!) advances the same argument Meg made. The email has always existed. But the content of it has changed. I lay out why in terms of timeline. But two reasons this is almost certainly true is: 1) Rove had to be lying about the welfare reform. Cooper would never have been connected through to Rove–in a rush, right before vacation–if he had told the receptionist he was writing about welfare reform. It wouldn’t have been urgent enough. So the welfare reform content HAS to be false.

2) we know that Rove told Libby about Novak and Libby told Rove (supposedly) abotu Russert. So why wouldn’t Rove tell Hadley that he had told Cooper about Plame?

Well, he would have. So the email almost certainly originally told Hadley he had passed on the leak.

NY kicking some TX ass, 7 x 0.

speaking ex cathedra as a retired M$ Exchange Email sysadmin, I cannot conceive of how Rove et al could change anything about an Email. I am assuming that the WH is using an advanced, modern, heavy-duty corporate Email system. Only whizbangs from the National Security Agency might have the expertise to screw with WH Emails.

“I agree with those asserting that it would have been spectacularly ballsy and technoconspiratorial for Rove to have forged the original email. Not so, however, for introducing tweaks and/or elisions into the version provided the AP.”

I liked Meg’s suggestion in the last thread that Rove inserted different text under the old (legitimate) header:

“1. Hadley was a point-guy on the Wilson smear
2. Rove DID send Hadley an email after speaking with Cooper, but the email is a smoking-gun with respect to the Plame investigation
3. Gonzales et al did not produce this smoking-gun email when responding to requests from Fitz
4. The FBI went around the Gonzales et al filter and got what they wanted anyway
5. Rove et al did not know what the FBI had
6. Rove was asked about this email when shown a log entry or some other ‘memory trigger’
7. Rove decided to produce this ‘email’ as spin and forged the CONTENTS only keeping the character count the same so that the email log would match the email headers exactly
8. Rove could not figure out a way to forge all of the actual copies of the actual email, but figured that matching the log was good enough.
My theory does not explain why they left in Niger etc. unless Rove needed that for his spin of the day.
However, my theory does explain why the email was goofy in its wording – they had to keep the character count the same.”

OT: dear god, please let the giants beat dallas. . .

required reading: emptywheel
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c……html#more

That’s a nice picture, under the question mark. Who dat?

Hello, all. Valley Girl in the last thread, and ccmask here, touch on a question that’s been bothering me: How do we know what we (think we) know about the precise text of the Rove-Hadley email?

As far as I can tell, all our direct quotations of that email come from the copy “obtained” (presumably from Luskin) by the AP last July. But what exactly did the AP “obtain”? An electronic forwarding of the exact keystrokes originating from Rove’s grubby fingertips? An excerpt of same? A retyped version of same? An excerpted, retyped version?

Do we know for sure that Rove spelled “Niger” correctly in the actual email? Could he have mistyped it in any way that might have eluded at least an initial data-mining expedition?

If AP didn’t obtain the entire thing, what’s missing?

I agree with those asserting that it would have been spectacularly ballsy and technoconspiratorial for Rove to have forged the original email. Not so, however, for introducing tweaks and/or elisions into the version provided the AP.

Somehow, “Christy Smith” sounds like more of a pseudonym than “ReddHedd…”

Hey! My Eschaton comment is picked up on the firedoglake main page! Cool. I’d like to thank the Academy…

I can’t figure out if Luskin is a genius or a crazy person. Time will tell, I suppose.

Although if Redd can get airtime, there’s always hope for the country…

Secret identity? Not really.

http://www.sff.net/people/reddhedd/

Keep up the awesome work Redd & Jane!

http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004

^^^ Send Letters ^^^

Do I have to say more???

I think its ReddHedd playing nicole kidman.

John Conyers and Guam Envoy call for investigation of Bush Adminstration’s cover-up of 2002 Abramoff investigation:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..5304/98461

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/….._0823.html

heh . . .

The photo is — Kathleen Turner?

About the Hadley email – Suppose that documenting contacts with the press is sop for the White House. Suppose Hadley was the point man for all press contacts re the Niger story. Suppose Rove’s email to Hadley was done by rote (which would explain why he sent it despite being in a hurry to leave for vacation).

If documenting press contacts was sop (and I think it must be for the WH), Hadley and Rove each have a subordinate who tracks these contacts – it’s inconceivable they would do it themselves. This email either would have been copied (by Rove) or forwarded (by Hadley) to Hadley’s assistant. If it it wasn’t also copied to Rove’s assistant, surely there is an email re the welfare reform story to Rove’s assistant of the same day and approx. the same time. My guess is that there is no email to an assistant re the welfare reform story.

But. I wonder if this isn’t where Adam Levine comes in.

One small item was a July 11, 2003, e-mail Rove sent to former press aide Adam Levine saying Levine could come up to his office to discuss a personnel issue. The e-mail was at 11:17 a.m., minutes after Rove had gotten off the phone with Matt Cooper —the same conversation (in which White House critic Joe Wilson’s wife’s work for the CIA was discussed) that Rove originally failed to disclose to the grand jury. Levine, with whom Rove often discussed his talks with reporters, did immediately go up to see Rove. But as Levine told the FBI last week, Rove never said anything about Cooper.

Morning/Afternoon All,

A flawless sunny day here in the Great Lake State, with a fresh coat of fluffy snowfall to brighten things up further. Patiently waiting for everyone to wake up across the timezones and so I clicked on ‘play’ on my mini Win Media Player still set to the radio station from Friday, love the synch that this thread mentions Reddhead’s great interview.

We just had a New Moon, a fresh cycle will start, what will this week have in store for us?

Redd is out!

Thanks for keeping us up on everything relative to the Republicans. I know that it is a target rich environment, but you and Jane are doing a great job.

Dan
=

Dang – Is that Redd?

back to the Hadley-addressed Email: supposedly Rove was in the process of leaving his office when the incoming Cooper call was taken. As I recall, the conversation was hurried. It’s interesting that soon thereafter, Rove found the time to inform Hadley that Cooper was sniffing around the Niger story…

Some thoughts:

In the email sent to Hadley, isn’t it true that the AP did not publish the email in its entirety, but, rather claims made by Rove in the email?

Is it possible that “someone” pulled a dipstick survey on Viveca?? over drinks, to ask what stories Cooper had been working on lately and was told about the Welfare Reform story…….Which is why Cooper says, “I can’t find any record of talking about [welfare reform] with him on July 11 [2003], and I don’t recall doing so,” Cooper said. On the topic of “Isn’t this damaging to the president?” part of the email, what would Rove have considered “Damaging to the President regarding Niger” at this point in time?

SNIP
Writing to Time bureau chief Michael Duffy on 11 July 2003, three days before Novak’s column was published, Cooper recounted a two-minute conversation with Karl Rove “on double super secret background” in which Rove said that Wilson’s wife was a CIA employee: “it was, KR [Karl Rove] said, Wilson’s wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd issues who authorized the trip.” In a Time article released 17 July 2005, Cooper says Rove ended his conversation by saying “I’ve already said too much.”
SNIP

At this point, Rove does not know that Wilson’s wife is NOC. The “I’ve already said too much” was because spokeweasel Novak’s column hadn’t been printed yet…….

This email, in his mind, is brilliant! in that it enables Rove, although pressed for time due to leaving for vacation, a chance to “cluster up” his aspen defenses because he knows at this point that he is involved in “conspirious” play, then giggles because conspirious isn’t even a word……So, off he goes on the trip leaving the email, still clustering in his mailbox, at the office. If he needed it down the road, he could always “remember it” and float it on a slow or swift boat over to Fitz, and by that time it would be as suspicious as a Killian document, but it would be authentic. Of course, all this works gets him for conspiracy, right?

We also know that Bush knew Rove was guilty on September 30, 2003, when President Bush changed his mind firing anyone involved to “I don’t know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I’d like to know it, and we’ll take the appropriate action.

Remember when Rove went to New York and announced that liberals saw the savagery of 911 and wanted to offer therapy. Why did he do this? He did this to anger Democrats enough to defend themselves by pointing out that they voted for military force in retaliation for the 911 attacks. It was probably also his idea to not let the rich pay taxes because then Dems would have to announce that they want to raise taxes.

These guys will one day pay for their crimes. Right now, Bush 41 is paying for his crimes, through his crotch fruit, and all of the rest of the Republicans because of the bribes. It takes a long time and a good deal of patience. Just ask the Indians……look how long they’ve waited to get back at them!!

“Innocence is like a dumb leper who has lost his bell, wandering the world, meaning no harm.”
by George Packer, author of Assasin’s Gate

I hope this upcoming week kick-offs the serious reclaiming of our country and Constitution from those within and without who have sabotaged and schemed against them both, unhindered for far too long.

Hello, Democratic Party??

Let’s engage, on all fronts.

Fitz!