LJ,

Thanks for the clarification. I left the Civil Service to return to graduate school. The FERS/CSRS thing was under discussion around the time I left, and I just didn’t pay much attention to it. I didn’t have any intention of returning to the Civil Service.

BC

If it’s anything like other benefit programs, I think the fact that Valerie is retiring in her early 40’s also must have a big impact on the amount of benefit.

Should clear the way for a nice civil suit against Libby, et. al.

Late to the thread, but this is something I do know about, as a postal worker.

re change in benies – I hadn’t heard that. a prior work associate ranted a couple of yrs ago that civil servants got full pay bennes like the airlines (used to )
interesting that it isn;t true.

It depends on when you started your service.

If it was before the 80s, you do get the old-fashioned pension.

Then there’s what you get if you started working for the govt/USPS in the past 20-25 years, which is what Valerie Wilson would fall under: The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). It’s a voluntary pay-in program that’s essentially a 401(k). You can choose various ways to invest your money (stock or bond index funds, government security index fund, and, since approx. 2000, small caps and international index funds). The first 3% gets direct match. The next 2% gets a % match (I think it’s 50%–can’t remember now), and you can invest another 5% unmatched.

You don’t need a financial advisor, really. You just pick where you want your money to go. You can divvy up by percentages, too: 70% stocks, 20% bonds and 10% govt securities is a popular choice.

But all of this relies on volatile markets. That’s why I wish they’d never gotten rid of the pension plan we used to have.

BC and Kitty — neither of you is completely right on FERS retirement system. What BC said about CSRS being defined benefit retirement which is generous because it also replaces Social Security is accurate, but FERS proper IS a defined benefit program, only much less generous. If she worked in DC for the past few years and is at the very top of the GS15 level, she would get about $26K/year from FERS starting immediately, plus be able to buy into federal health insurance for the rest of her life with the feds continuing to pay their share of it (half IIRC?).

The defined contribution part is the Thrift Savings, which is pretty good (govt. will match your contributions up to 5% of your annual salary, all non-taxed until withdrawal like 401k), but I think it works like a 401k or IRA in that you have to be 59 1/2 until you can start to withdraw it. Not sure about that, tho. And of course, the Social Security part works like everyone else’s Social Security.

So basically FERS lets her make herself a little more affordable to work at a think tank or RAND or someplace like that.

Between that and what Joe Wilson makes on retirement and from his book, I wouldn’t worry about them financially. The part that stinks is that, per Larry Johnson, she was really good at what she did, and can never do that again thanks to the foul running sore of malevolent pus known more properly as No-facts.

Andy,

FERS took effect in the early-to-mid 80s. I think she’s under FERS, unless the CIA has its own system. I don’t think they do, because the CIA’s worker bees are GS-ers like everybody else in the Civil Service.

BC

Kitty,

As my grandad said, “Son, the problem is usually what you know that isn’t so.” I was a GS-er for a couple of years between my MSc and PhD (being a GS-er encouraged me to go back to gradual school). The old (defined benefit) system was definitely a generous retirement system. It had to be, because if you’d worked the majority of your career in the Civil Service you weren’t getting any Social Security.

The new system (defined contribution) is still a reasonable retirement system when combined with Social Security. But it’s not particularly generous.

On the commentary about Bush’s cognitive style (do I have to pay that word extra now for abusing it?) you should also read Bush on the Couch. It’ll keep you awake at night…

BC

AndyG…. that is too freaking weird !!!

I am not sure about the retirement. She may be on FERS which is a kind of defined contribution, as opposed to CSRS which is the older (and now much better) defined benefit retirement system. However does this apply to the CIA? I know the postmasters have a different retirement.
On another note, I’m surprised nobody has noted the Honikman quote – “She was going into work and nobody was talking to her” What is the implication of that? Is there a general plan to ostracize her?

“But her life was turned upside down. She was going into work and nobody was talking to her,” Honikman said.

• • •

This really bugs me. On top of everything else her colleagues ostracize her?

“To the extent that Bush’s presidential performance suffers from his cognitive style, his problem may be that of lacking intellectual curiosity, a shortcoming that blunts a president’s sensitivity to emerging issues”

This combined with an overbearing sense of entitlement unmitigated by the presence of a social conscience and reinforced by his sense of religious mission?

Valerie Plame is a flat-out hero.

She should be Time’s Woman of the Year, along with Cindy Sheehan. What Valerie really did to enrage Dick Cheney and his cabal will come out eventually, and when it does, she’ll be feted with the honor she has earned.

In essence, it might just be that she stopped Cheney et al from planting WMDs in Iraq after the invasion.

re: DIEBOLD . . .

CA sos, a gopper, is ready to re-certify diebold in CA but has agreed to let a hacker try to break into a machine . . .

should not too difficult!!!

I cannot even bring myself to read the article about Valerie Plame’s retirement yet. After the anger comes the unbearable sadness about her, her family, and what our country has become. Gives a whole new meaning to the term, “betrayal.”

And really – I can’t even parse the whole war on terror “victory” shit “strategy” that will be flung toward us tomorrow. Can’t. Handle. It.

Get that guy out of here.

new thread

new thread. boys and girls, all about Andrea….

suntzu: the CIA is trying to shove the establishment in that direction. That’s my guess about where these stories are actually coming from.

Valley Girl: nice quote, thanks!

Pachacutec | 11.29.05 – 5:51 pm

I ran across a sample chapter of The Presidential Difference: Leadership Style from FDR to George W. Bush (2004) It’s way too kind to Bush, but has some interesting parts. On the whole, the author seems to be saying “Bush is doing quite well, despite his limitations”.

This part, however, is memorable: “It would not be surprising if a man who had abused alcohol until early middle age and had abruptly gone on the wagon proved to be an emotional tinder box…” (that in context, and more below).

http://www.pupress.princeton.e…..s7804.html

—To the extent that Bush’s presidential performance suffers from his cognitive style, his problem may be that of lacking intellectual curiosity, a shortcoming that blunts a president’s sensitivity to emerging issues. There also are cognitive implications to Bush’s management style, which leads him to rely heavily on subordinates to structure his options. Having been a front man in his business career, his tendency is to do better at outlining his administration’s positions than elucidating their subtleties.

[…]Emotional Intelligence By the litmus of emotional intelligence, the heavy-drinking, young George W. Bush was too volatile and unreliable to be a promising prospect for a responsible public position. It would not be surprising if a man who had abused alcohol until early middle age and had abruptly gone on the wagon proved to be an emotional tinder box, but Bush’s pre-presidential job and his early presidency were not marred by emotional excesses.—-more at link
-

ROFL T-Rex.

I forgot about A Coulter publishing blogger Lydia Cornell’s personal information and phone number on Ann’s site, what an evil bitch.

Hmm.. that would mean that would be Coulter’s AIM ID too…

TREX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love ya…

ann coulters email address is NOT for children. god knows what she sends her email list –

I am sure she is not bad to children or anything like that – but she porbably has sicko alerts that re sorta the antithesis of what you raise your kids to say or think…at least, what decent people raise their kids to say or think…

suntzu–

I’m not a Pach, but I play one on the threads…

Question: given the premise (lacking scientific proof) that Bush has lost whatever connection he has remaining to reality, don’t you think the only people who can save us now would be some wise old souls in the Republican party?

I think the exact opposite is beginning to happen. No one wants to have anything to do with this administration. They can’t find people to fill the ranks of their economic team and with the Bizzaro Preznet in charge, who wants to even walk into his office? Anyone who might have chimed up earlier will be turning their backs on the guy.

WHich leaves us with the scary thought that he is going to be on his own for the NEXT THREE YEARS!

God, save us all.

BC

re change in benies – I hadn’t heard that. a prior work associate ranted a couple of yrs ago that civil servants got full pay bennes like the airlines (used to )
interesting that it isn;t true.

Well, she would have to be a smart woman to have done that job so I have a feeling she will land on her feet. I certainly wish her the best. In all this mess she can hold her head high and know she served her country.

re: DIEBOLD . . .

CA sos, a gopper, is ready to re-certify diebold in CA but has agreed to let a hacker try to break into a machine . . .

should not too difficult!!!

Um, how would you kids feel about having Ann Coulter’s personal email address?

anncright@aol.com

I’m not saying where I got it.

dubhaltach

a guy I know argued that Saudi does NOT have poor people. I thought they did – so can you point me to a good reference point to email him with a big sign saying ” so there!”

thanks…

bobbyG

she can write about what it felty like to get fecked by the admin, for sure – but nothing that she did inside the place. Personally, I would not want her to go there .

[quote]I was more or less going along with the simple but plain-spoken hillbilly gag, until he got to the reference to the Treaty of Westphalia.

That kind of blew his cover….
bcf | 11.29.05 – 2:08 pm | #[/quote]

…..actually…..i’m somewhat sympathetic. (or possibly simply pathetic.) i am a hillbilly whose ancestors helped write the treaty of westphalia. ok they had a little more education than some of the more recent family members……

“Seems to me a good form of political judo would be to post hacking instructions all over the internet. Maybe invite reporters to come visit. Spread a little sunshine on a shadowy topic, and put the validity of these systems into well-deserved severe doubt.”

percy, what a great idea. The hacking instructions should be prominently included in every letter to congress and state authorities that we write to on this issue.

“That Patrick Fitzgerald, the country’s leading expert in prosecuting terrorists, is now prosecuting this case strikes some as ironic. There is nothing ironic about it.”

Here’s something that goes beyond ironic and should have someone with Fitz’s competence to set it right: The level of ineptitude of this administration’s War on Terror™ is stunning! Cannot make meaningful progress with regards to border, port shipping containers, airline luggage, and now this GAO report:

War on terror finance hurt by infighting –report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..nancing_dc

Pacha:

Question: given the premise (lacking scientific proof) that Bush has lost whatever connection he has remaining to reality, don’t you think the only people who can save us now would be some wise old souls in the Republican party? Forgetting the possibility of impeachment right now, don’t we need a replay of Watergate in some sense?

Dubya as the groundhog reminds me of Groundhog Day with Bill Murray which reminds me of Murray as the golf course groundskeeper in Caddy Shack. He fought the evil Cong Varmit with everything he had. Where’s our Lefty Karl “the groundskeeper”?

So Dubya runs from one hole to the other while popping out into public just long enough to pretend he’s doing something other than just running from hole to hole. Well, at least Dick Cheney has the decency to avoid that pretense by just staying hidden in his hole and rarely coming out — thank god for small wonders.

So, when do International War Crimes tribunals take up the use of White Phosphorous by American troops in Iraq?

wonderer
stop wondering
CIA factions which were not ‘with the program’ were the target
poor choice – those people know how to strike back
which is what you are seeing

Kitty,

If the CIA plays the same retirement game as the rest of the Federal Civil Service, she won’t be receiving anything like full salary in retirement.

When they restructured the Federal retirement system in the mid-80s, they made it a defined contribution plan with a Social Security component. Previously it had been a defined benefit plan and GS-ers were exempt from OASDI taxes.

Bottom line: Mrs Wilson is likely to be screwed. All she gets by hanging in for her 20 years is fully vested in the system. That is, she gets to keep the CIA’s contributions to her retirement account, and she can begin drawing a pension when she’s eligible under their eligibility rules.

If she had a good investment advisor during the 90s boom and didn’t get burned too much by paper losses in the tech market collapse she’ll likely be okay. But not a whole lot more than okay.

BC

Atrios is lamenting his absence from “Falafel Bill’s” LIST. What? No one nominated fdl?

http://atrios.blogspot.com/200…..3981627578

Is the President Fucking Nuts?

Okay, I know we’ve done psychological profiling of the president in these threads before, but this idea that he is a messianic megolomaniac (in so many words) is getting more media play.

There was the piece in the Ny Daily News this week, outlining again how isloated he is and convinced he is right, in spite of all evidence and contrary feedback.

Sy Hersh has his New Yorker piece this week adding more detail to the picture of a faith based, unshakable kamikaze with his hands on some global historical joystick.

The problem, of course, is that this is no game of Sid Meier’s new Civilization IV. This is real shit. But people who know the president seem convinced he will not yeild or bend, no matter what the reality around him. He’s playing chicken with history and with millions of lives.

Tomorrow, he will go on the offensive with his strategy for “victory” in Iraq. Guess what? He will say we are winning already. he will trot out some new numbers representing Iraqi army units or policemen trained and combat ready, and ask him to believe him this time, never mind those other phony numbers he has fed us repeatedly in the past.

This is a new effort at a PR offensive. But it’s basically a rerun, and the American people are most likely to see it that way.

I’m betting the polls will reflect a growing realization that the president is fucking nuts, unwilling to yeild, convinced of his messianic mission. I think this thing will backfire on the president, politically, and the poll numbers by January 1 will reflect that.

I’m also betting we will begin to hear more “Bush is crazy” jokes. We used to hear “Bush is stupid” jokes or “Bush can’t speak English” jokes, but now I think there will be a new genre.

People will begin to be really scared that he is so divorced from reality, and we have three more years of him. Humor is a way to both tell the terrifying truth and manage fear. I expect to see more “Bush is fucking nuts” jokes. I can’t predict what they will be, but the punch lines will have Bush totally avoiding reality. Totally.

We are at the dawn of a new era in this colossal fuckup of a presidency. Tomorrow will move us further in that direction, and there will be increasingly irresistable pressure on Congress to step up to check the president and reflect the popular will. Those who don’t act to as to rteign in the president will face serious electoral danger in ‘06.

She would be as free to speak out just as Larry Johnson is, right?

erh.. sorry. Roman Emperor ValenS

Dubhal,

I agree with you on the AQ leadership, and I believe that this pattern has always been the case in terrorist movements.. the presence of large numbers of dispossed/occupied/impoverished/disenfranchised and the discontented/visionary elites necesary to give charismatic shape to their concerns. It’s precisely this dynamic that makes terrorism so dangerous.. the case from Roman times to the present… and something that leaders with cause to be paranoid, from the Tokugawa Shogunate to Valen to Metternich, were intensely preoccupied with.

oh me, fyi, my views of terrorisms were formed quite a long way before 9/11. I’m afraid I actually managed to miss the immediacy of that crisis… Didn’t hear about for a week until after it happened and didn’t get back in country for about 9 months after it happened. I’m not discounting the importance of 9/11 and I know you’re not either, but a lot of these debates were underway very publicly, for decades before it happened.

I am out for dinner peeps… I will return later, just don’t think I am dropping out of debates or missing the outstanding flow of information and ideas here :)

Beer sounds good too ;-]

Nothing earth shattering re Countdown and Milbank’s remarks on Ralston. I take issue with Milbank’s comments re Raw Story and his assessment of credibility in the Ralston report by drawing upon the Raw Story Wurmser/Hannah story that *didn’t pan out*. It’s simply too early to tell. The chronology of press leaks and Fitzgerald’s legal maneuvers simply do not have a linear relationship.

So we watch, and wait.
.

egregious at 5:11: Diebold’s “voting machines can be reprogrammed in 90 seconds by an amateur. their tabulators, which add up all votes including absentee, can also easily be changed to give them whatever totals they want.”

Hackers/programmers have demonstrated just how scarily vulnerable these systems are to hacking.

Seems to me a good form of political judo would be to post hacking instructions all over the internet. Maybe invite reporters to come visit. Spread a little sunshine on a shadowy topic, and put the validity of these systems into well-deserved severe doubt.

2 very quick points because I’m run off my feet today:

1)

Kitty,

You’re completely correct she can’t talk freely about a lot of things. CIA officers who, for example, write memoirs have to get what they’ve writtten vetted not only by CIA secuirty people but also by CIA lawyers.

2) Blub – Me is correct about who the leaders are. They almost never come from poverty stricken backgrounds and yes Saudi has some of the poorest people in the Middle East (and that’s saying something.)

The savage bloody awful thing about the blood soaked mess that is the M.E. is that genuinely democratic modernising reformers were wiped out by local regimes at the behest of western govts. foremost among them the US & now the whirlwind is being reaped.

Good point Wilson, but I think believe (strongly) that the verdict is very much out on the nature of international terrorism and the best way to respond to it. The last 5 years has effectively prevented us from being creative about the types of responses that are most appropriate for it, because it actually because disloyal to be creative on the subject. And somehow terrorism somehow got conflated with the PNAC’s already discreted dreams for world conquest and with the whole conflict of civilizations theses about the nature of international relations articulated by a half dozen or so of our favorite wingnuts (admitted with academic support). Somehow views so widely and so long ago condemned previously and utterly discreted in both academic AND popular circles managed, through our present national adventure.. erh I mean administration.. embodied in our highest elected officials’ belief systems. This, and not the entire body of knowledge on which the fields of foreign relations and international affairs are based, is what we have to work to eject.

Brewster-Jennings/Valerie Plame were also placing contract workers deep into ARAMCO… Which may have conflicted with Cheney’s oil cabal goals.

Do ya think that Ms. Plame was the real target and not her husband?

My reading is there were two targets, Wilson and the CIA. Plame is the instrument through which they worked their vendetta. I.e., she was acceptable collateral damage. The word ‘vendetta’ brings to mind that it was also a mafia-style hit — you sometimes go after someone by whacking someone they love. If you whack the victim he dies, but if you whack a loved one, your enemy suffers the loss of a loved one, which can be worse than dying.

Reminds me of the scene in the Godfather where they kill the favorite racehorse of the Hollywood tycoon and place the head on his bed.

The best(?)/most thought-provoking article on Brewster-Jennings that I’ve read is here -

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=8137

Lesser Neocons of L’Affaire Plame

by Christopher Deliso

I’ve no idea if it’s factually accurate, but if so it would indicate that Brewster-Jennings/Valerie Plame may have been getting in the way of Cheney’s plans to find (i.e. plant)WMD in Iraq….

do you really believe that everything any of us have learned on the subjects of history, international relations/politics, management, human nature, military history and a lot of other subjects is meaningless just because we’re presently being governed by a gang of thugs?

When you apply it to “terrorism” – Yes, without a doubt. People’s impressions, attitudes, how they emotionally address the issue have all be altered by 1) 9/11 which was a singular attack 2) years of jingoism and propaganda that was spoon fed to people in the aftermath.

You can have a fantastic eduction… But unless you look at the facts without emotional distortions or swayed thinking on the subject, you still miss the best answers to the problem.

one of the great things I learned from my formal education was how to continue to learn so that later I could learn how miseducated I had been. Skepticism and humility are powerful tools of knowledge. [/off Zen blather]

Everybody had heard about laundering money, right? Well, have you ever heard of laundering solid gold bars? In an article on Rove/Luskin/Viveda, Digby drops this little eye-opener:

A U.S. attorney, accusing Luskin of “willful blindness,” reasoned that, when Luskin started getting paid with solid gold bars (he ultimately received 45 of them, worth $505,125) and wire transfers from Swiss bank accounts, he should have known the payments were from illicit sources, especially since his client’s crimes involved gold bars and wire transfers from Swiss bank accounts.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..2314260485

I hope heÂ’s smart enough to keep them under his mattress. Might make for some lumpy sleeping though. Just from this episode, the guy sounds like he is both clueless and out of control, a dangerous combination.

If Rove is so smart, why is Luskin his lawyer? The only answer I can think of is that Rove has to have a laywer whom he thinks is dumber than himself. In other words, he needs to be the boss.

Do ya think that Ms. Plame was the real target and not her husband?

There is no question Plame was the actual target of the leak.

“from a propaganda machine”

Guess I just have to and toss out my graduate IA degree and probably a couple more degrees as well then… come on? do you really believe that everything any of us have learned on the subjects of history, international relations/politics, management, human nature, military history and a lot of other subjects is meaningless just because we’re presently being governed by a gang of thugs?

Truly sad that she has to leave . I hope she’s being afforded some type of protection for her and her family.

I also love that Jane used that Graphic, probably my favorite.

I’m getting back into the swing of things over at the dartboard, I just blogged about Vandehei.

http://darted.blogspot.com

-Monk

Saudi isn’t poor. Many of the people are.

But none of these big time “terrorists” hurt for money. None of the leaders are poor, come from poor families, or lack funding to support them.

Not everything is propaganda as you put it, and there is real expertise out there with real solutions. Don’t throw that out with the idiots who run our country today.

Unless you go and read minutes from non-partisan think tanks as you put it… You have learned everything you know about terrorism from a propaganda machine. The real expertise has been suppressed… It does not align with the goals of the US government in power to actually fix the root causes of terrorism. Without terrorism, their poll numbers would have tanked years ago… It gave the jingoists a cause to rally the country to them. They don’t want to give up their enemies, they don’t really want the problem fixed… Sane voices have been stepped on and covered up.

Unfortunately, the legacy of military occupation goes on long after the armies leave, and I believe it is that legacy combined with poverty for indigenous minorities or just the politically and economically disadvantaged that creates causes for which people are willing to die. We make things better when our armies go home, but we remain vulnerable to the legacies we.. or the Brits and others in past generations.. have left behind in our imperial wake.

Conventional law enforcement, at least the Western European sense, is based on the concept of incentives for good behavior (the social umbrella) and disincentives (through policing and the courts) for bad behavior. As such, it works very well at the margin. Against people whose since of historical and present persecutation is such that they will happily blow themselves up remains to be seen.

I would also like us (royal we, i guess) to explore the concept of making the global community (the UN) responsible eventually, in its collectivity, for suppressing terrorism. A multinational rapid response force against that could have resources able to respond to national government requests for logistical and law enforcement support against terrorism, might be a dream. I don’t know. Our bilateral frameworks for activism just don’t seem to be working.

Valerie Plame’s job at the CIA is not just a loss to her and her family, it is a loss to all of us.

I know how hard it is to start over in a new career in your 40s. Good luck Mrs. Wilson.

very nice

sorry to go off topic, but real good news.

wikipedia had a crazy definition of “swift boating” which was obviously submitted by some neo con

they were informed and immediately corrected their page

very nice

as follows;

Swiftboating is American political jargon for the sensationalized portrayal of John Kerry’s decorated military experience in Vietnam. The Swift Boat Veterans For Truth organization’s ads against Democratic presidential candidate Senator John F. Kerry in the 2004 presidential election campaign alleged that Senator Kerry was being untruthful in his representation of his military record. All available military records support Senator Kerry’s accounts of his own service.

After the ads were broadcast on national media outlets, the allegations against Sen. Kerry gained traction on right-wing talk radio, the Drudge Report and the Fox News Channel. Kerry was faulted by many commentators for not responding to the story sooner than he did, but it is a matter of debate whether this would have benefitted his campaign or not. Had he said something sooner, other media outlets might have picked up on the charges, giving them even wider play. On the other hand, by staying silent, he allowed his Vietnam-era critics to appear unchallenged. Either way, the appearance of the Swift Boat Veterans and their book, Unfit for Command was a political windfall for President George W. Bush. Hitting the Drudge Report just after the Democratic Convention, a convention which gave great prominance to Sen. Kerry’s military service, the Veterans and their book played a role in neutralizing whatever political momentum Sen. Kerry might have received otherwise.

Swiftboating is a newly coined political term for exaggeration and embellishment to the point of lying in a public relations assault on a political opponent. More specifically, Swiftboating frequently refers to a campaign that uses viral marketing techniques to sell the exaggerations. By using credible-sounding sources to make sensational and difficult-to-disprove accusations against the opponent, the campaign leverages media tendencies to give the story far more play than it would otherwise receive. Mostly used as a pejorative, the term has gained currency among liberal writers, while its appropriateness as a description of political debate has been questioned by some conservative commentators.

which was corrected from this;

“Swiftboating is American political jargon for truthful and accurate debunking of John Kerry’s exaggerated military experience in Vietnam. The Swift Boat Veterans For Truth organization’s ads against Democratic presidential candidate Senator John F. Kerry in the 2004 election campaign revealed the candidate to be untruthful in his representation of his military record. Swiftboating is a new political term for exposing the truth while being under constant attack from those that desperately want to believe the lie.

very nice and fast on their part

re vote tampering:

january 1, 2006 deadline for states who want federal money to choose whether they will invite DIEBOLD into their states.

please check your secretary of state to see if this evil company is worming its way into your state.

their voting machines can be reprogrammed in 90 seconds by an amateur. their tabulators, which add up all votes including absentee, can also easily be changed to give them whatever totals they want.

california activists are trying hard to perform a legitimate test, but diebold is demanding the results be kept confidential until (…woo,
total coincidence here…) AFTER JANUARY 1.

act before january 1: save the vote

Do ya think that Ms. Plame was the real target and not her husband? It seems her job involving WMD gave her access to the truth regarding WMDs. And we all know how dedicated Dick is to the truth.

Blub:

my understanding is that history shows there is one, and only one cause of terrorism: OCCUPATION.

Am I recalling it correctly – was it Fitzgerald himself that commented on it being illegal to use gov. office and property to violate a person’s civil rights?

It is sickening to consider Valerie Plame dedicating two decades of her life and service only to have it impulsively and intentionally ruined out of spite. Utterly revolting.

It stirs a visceral response in me due to some past experiences in certain work places. There is a reason I have worked long and hard to be my own boss and be in a position to treat others properly at no risk to my own sucess.
.

Olberman is going to shoot down Vandehei tonight with reporting on Ralston which NOBODY has commented about…GO KEITH!

HEADS UP ALL

Me,

Saudi isn’t poor. Many of the people are. I just cannot but feel that this is a problem that cannot just be solved by conventional means. It’s one grounded in a lot of history and generations of umbrage. In many respects, it was inevitable. People in a dozen thinktanks i respect I am familiar with (and I’m sure so are you), we’ve long since prophesized our present terrorism problem and (probably correctly) recommended how to deal with it. And this very much predates our present spate of national mismanagement. Not everything is propaganda as you put it, and there is real expertise out there with real solutions. Don’t throw that out with the idiots who run our country today.

We need to win support from the poor in countries that spawn the worst provocateurs somehow..

Most of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi… Not a poor country by anybodys standards. The idealism is not spawning from lack of wealth. I agree with some of your points… But you must understand something:

Everything you have been taught about terrorism has been taught to you by a propaganda machine. There is very little validity in any of the assumptions or information that has been disseminated to the public since 9/11… It’s all bullshit, every bit of it… Lies, jingoism, propaganda.

To solve the problem you have to throw out everything you have learned or thought you knew… Then looks at the cold facts.

Police work is the real way to solve international criminal syndicates. Interpol proves it can work. The US has never supported an effective solution to this growing and expanding problem. All US efforts have, and will continue, to produce an increase in global “terrorism”.

There are root issues in fundamentalist Islam… Just as there are root issues in fundamentist Christianity. Those issues need to be addressed as well, in order to seal off the springs from which the ideology flows… But that can be done thru public education programs… And preferably organized by moderates in both religious institutions.

But the criminal problem is nothing but a criminal problem… And criminal task forces that can obtain warrants from country to country, rapidly, without red tape or obstruction is far and wide the best way to combat this problem.

pacH:Tweety-speak for “you’re a plain spoken white hetero guy, and I like that.

000

lol, good one!

Tweety doing mensche measure.

Kitty -

Big dollar book deal. Count on it.

—

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..nancing_dc

See when Bush set up the dept of Homeland Security, he completely monkey wrenched the established chain of command and interagency cooperation that was _working_ under Clinton.

career over at 42. whew. that stinks.

at least she is young even to start over and she gets full salary retirement checks when she retires. I know, pollyanna-ish, but it could be worse.

btw, I do not think she is free to speak on all matters simply because she leaves the company.

Duke’s speech was well crafted and delivered, and probably written for him, or at least, with help.

While I take no joy in seeing anyone’s life crumble, in his case, I’m not so empathetic.

Why?

See Digby:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..7498289001

And while you are there, his latest on tomorrow’s “Plan for Victory” by Bush in Iraq is also a must, must read:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..2314260485

And this nugget is primo, too:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..6633286085

File the last one under “Why Rummy shold report to The Hague with the Veep.”

Go read Wilkerson’s interview on BBC. linked
above. He’s like the Chorus in a Greek Tragedy.
Singing some truth today. Also check out
Sy Hersh’s comments about US SMU commando teams on the hunt for “terrorists”
They are not eating MRE’s on vacation
when they enter into Syria, African countries,
and other places.

Me,

I think that the solution has to be one of intensive activism in the countries that tend to generate the most fervant adherants of terrorism.. the marshall plan concept. We need to win support from the poor in countries that spawn the worst provocateurs somehow.. and this is not something that policemen will ever be able to do.. no matter how good they are. And most of all, we need regime change of some manner.. hopefully peacefully initiated with us on the RIGHT side this time.. in Riyadh.

cathy –

Just have time for a quick response here: I agree with you, actually. This may all be faked. And even if it weren’t, it should make no difference in terms of the penalty he must pay.

I was just surprised at the tone in the letter, how well it was written. If he feels the way the letter suggests, then he will have no problem either atoning (through prison time) or through genuine help in the ongoing investigation.

OK, and now I’m really going out the door…see ya!

Blub: I guess I’m a little more hawkish than that. People who operate asymmetrically and extra/transnationally, driven by fundamentalist religious zeal and an overwhelming sense of self-validation, cannot, I think be dealt with (caught and neutralized) purely as a law enforcement problem.

It most certainly can be. First off, these guys don’t have tanks, APC, heavy rocket launchers etc… They are guys in street clothes building homemade explosive devices… Unless they get lucky and cop something heavy in a war zone.

So you fight it as an organized crime syndicate operating internationally. Clinton had the country on a good path in this direction: follow the money.

But you need to be more proactive than even Clinton was. It means some internation treaties with delegated law enforcement units operating seamlessly from one country to the next. You put tactical police teams (like SWAT units) in charge of the arrests… And special investigators and prosecutors in charge of the hunt.

It’s all you need to take down terror cells in any participating country.

If you apply brute force, start oppressing these people, you are simply going to increase recruitment… It’s going to spread far and wide on the present course, and this bull headed over application of brute force is going to come back and kick us in the ass unless things change real soon.

Mrs k8-

I’m glad you’re here. I wanted to respond to an earlier thread that I was lamenting about how I didn’t feel sorry for Duke Cunningham and you suggested that I read a Daily Kos article of Duke’s speech. I didn’t have a chance to respond to you but I would like to now.

My feeling is that if he really had remorse, he wouldn’t have waited until he got caught to feel bad about what he did. He was a skunk for at least 6 years and not once during that time did he “feel bad” about what he was doing. It was only after he got caught that he showed any remorse. I’m not convinced that it is “true” remorse.

Norske — Hey there, pal! I wrote a response to you above…

Off to p.t. now.

See you all later!

his speech today on the border wasn’t any more impressive. So he wants to “harden” our southern border. Isn’t that the term we refer to secure zones in Baghdad?

What’s this about the preznit calling his next speech on the iraq war a “national strategy for victory”? As opposed to a national strategy for losing?

Mrs. K8: no problem.

And there are no dumb questions.

Just dumb voters.

dubhaltach,

Right on!! Take ‘em all out and hange ‘em on national TV…mass scafolds. The courtesy we showed the condemned nazis is too good for our homegrown…hange ‘em in public and confiscate all family and corporate holdings.

I’m serious, Fitz’s investigation has the potential to drive a stake thru the heart of corporate fascism in this country.

Keep your eyes on the prize and pass the ammunition!!!

Pachacutec –

Thanks for the reply! [And sorry for the dumb question. Had a bad night last night, little sleep, and I seem to be in a dense fog.]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..11418.html

Excellent post at HuffPo… Wilkerson answered a question during a BBC interview in which he mentions Cheney may be a war criminal… David Corn picked it up, but it seems too hot for the MSM…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat…..ion/339984

Transcript Here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor…..481092.stm
So far ;)

emptywheel made the comment earlier, Mrs. K8, and jane gave it a hat tip in the main post.

If anything, the loss of a profession would show damages, which would work in Plame’s favor in a civil suit. emptywheel did not make any clear impliication of the potential impact, but I’m guessing this is what she had in mind.

Tweety had a good interview about the set of investigations, with a former House counsel as a guest.

Then he ends by saying the corruption is not really partisan.

Oy.

As Josh Marshall points out, people with power use it for personal gain. The Dems have not had any power. This is Republican Corruption.

jane –

That’s sad.

Someone in another thread asked if her retiring would affect the civil suit (perhaps I misunderstood, but it seemed the implication in the question was that it would have a negative impact on the suit).

To me it seems that there would be no affect whatsoever on a civil suit, but if there were, it would be a positive one (”forced” into retirement).

Me (and others),

Have you ever seen the British documentary The Power of Nightmares? I think you would find it most enlightening.

Larry Johnson just emailed to say Valerie Wilson is, indeed, retiring after 20 years of service on December 9.

Me,

I guess I’m a little more hawkish than that. People who operate asymmetrically and extra/transnationally, driven by fundamentalist religious zeal and an overwhelming sense of self-validation, cannot, I think be dealt with (caught and neutralized) purely as a law enforcement problem. But you also can’t win an asymmetric war through the raw projection of geopolitical might (tanks rolling in). Nor can you do it by shredding your own constitution and reducing yourself to their level in terms of capacity for atrocity. There has to be another way, and the PNAC cabal+preznit haven’t even began to figure out how.

I’ve had my fill of VandeHei too. Last night was the capper as he coyly wouldn’t tell all he knew because he had a column coming out later that night. The column turned out to be a waste of ink on newsprint/ or waste of bandwith, take your pick. Nothing new, nothing insightful, just more bs.

I do wish Keith would find others besides VendeHei and Milbank, they have so little to offer. How about Eugene Robinson, Frank Rich, even Tom Oliphant. At least they have interesting angles on things, not the same old drivel.

http://fusioner.proboards60.co…..1131129004

^^ Media Resources ^^

Fight back against the propaganda machine people. Don’t take BushCo laying down anymore.

Reposting my letter of this morning:

Who is terrorizing whom?

As I look deeper into the national issue of “terrorism” I have been able to identify some issues and trends that I find rather disturbing. “Terrorists” and “terrorism” are being used by the US government in a coordinated program of jingoism and propaganda. This jingoism and propaganda is being used to scare American citizens, erode their rights to privacy, and intimidate people into accepting losses to their civil rights. This comes in addition to practices such as labeling citizens “enemy combatants” for the purpose of stripping their habeas corpus rights, and the use of torture, secret prisons, and military attacks on foreign soil.

In particular I noted comments made by Sec. of State (mushroom cloud) Rice in a recent press appearance where she said:

“You can’t allow somebody to commit the crime before you detain them, because if they commit the crime, thousands of innocent people die,” she told the USA Today daily.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..1129083651

This is a gross exaggeration. Yes the US was attacked on 9/11, however the success of that attack was largely due to intelligence and security failures by the same administration that never seems to be able to accurately or effectively manage intelligence or security. The solution is not to fear monger American citizens, it’s to get a new administration which can accurately and effectively deal with important intelligence and security issues; the current adminstration has a proven track record of completely failing on both.

“How to deal with groups of people, individuals, that respect no law, that wear no uniform, that follow no regulations.”

This is easy. These “terrorists” are much more accurately described and dealt with by specialized police units and special prosecutors as an organized crime issue. They are criminals plain and simple. They have only become “terrorists” due to a lack of effective government, a government which has consistently failed in its job of handling foreign relations and organized crime issues. It’s not a military problem, use of the military will just make this worse. It is a foreign relations problem, it is an organized crime problem; it should not be used to fear monger American citizens or strip them of their privacy and civil rights.

Thank you,

Sy Hersh made some compelling remarks, especially commenting how detached Bush is from reading/comprehending daily events and how unreachable Bush is for realistic high level imput in managing the disaster in Iraq.

Vandehei reminds me of Damone, that slippery piano tie wearing opportunist in ‘fast times at ridgemont high.’
.

2nd last sentence should read:

Of course the fact that Pakistan is now an alli in the “war on terror” explains all that.

______

To sum up:

Short term idiocy from the most corrupt govt. ever in the USA. Take them out give them a fair trial then hang them,

Peter Goss of the CIA quoted as saying ” we
know more than we can say” in reference to
the hunt for BinLaden et al. He calls CIA methods in debriefings not torture—perhaps
he places them in the category of soft-porn? Is water-boarding torture? In his definition no. I am sure that these softer methods of extraction would not pass the constitutional test here in the USA.

Look for big news on the terror hunt front
once Fitzgerald goes public with indictments.
The name of the game is diversion —- look
at how we are protecting you—-overlook these
indictments on “technicalities.” obviously
won’t work.

This administration is in full spin mode on
this subject of CIA renditions and secret
prisons. The mad-hatter Rummy is flying to
meet privately with officials from Poland and
Romania. I am sure he’s not there to eat
ethnic food. Fitz could give him a good tour
of Chicago ethnic delicatessens.
Condi is going to OLD Europe soon to “explain”
our position. Wish she would stay home and
spend more time in the South with the displaced Americans from Katrina. Maybe she
could auction off her shoes on E-Bay to raise
disaster relief money. Is she our Imelda Marcos with 5000 shoes in her closet.?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..11401.html

HuffPo comments… Remarkably free of trolls. Even the commentors are noting the goopheads appear awol.

I don’t hold any water for some of the things the CIA has done and continues to do. But to deliberately and knowingly expose an undercover agent who was working to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons to amongst others terrorist groups is inexcusable. “Business as usual” and all the other crap is just that crap. They deserve the worst that can happen to them as I am quite sure the worst has happened to at least some of the people she worked with.

Let it NOT be forgottten either that this administration let Pakistan deleiver no more than a light slap on the wrist to Dr. Khan (1)

Dr. Khan (2) Bin Laden Met Several Times with Two Pakistani Nuclear Scientists Of course the fact that Pakistan is no an all is the “war on terror” explains all that. Except there’s just one little problem with that.

Pachacutec –

Thanks for the running commentary on VandeHei. I’m glad I didn’t see him — his spot on Countdown last night made me realized I’ve finally had my fill of him.

That head-tilted-back position of his (so he can literally look down on others) irritates me so much, I wish I could reach through the screen and give him a slap, saying “Hey, Mr. Smug, knock it off with the attitude!”

Not good for the blood pressure.

I’m not surprised Plame is retiring, but it’s the country’s loss.

When Joe Wilson was on Larry King Nov. 1, he spoke about it a bit.

KING: What’s your wife doing now?

WILSON: Well, she’s obviously not a covert officer anymore. She’s still at the CIA. She’s got several months until she’s vested in their pension system and she goes to work every day still trying to do her best in the service of this country, as she has been for the last 20 years.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRA…..kl.01.html

Gee, from all the comments here I’m sure sorry I missed Abrams and Jimmy V. *snort*

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20…..sm/ygold28

The CSM slowly turns left ;)

Last call for Plameohol?

Not until hell freezes over!

mmouse –

I meant to add: unless you really prefer to just read/lurk, please don’t be a “wallflower.” The more voices of genuine patriots who gather here, the better, is what I think.

Norske –

You asked me a question earlier today; my comments at “Money Can’t Buy Love” (1:50pm and 1:55pm) give an answer.

Also — there was a belated comment I made last night at 7:01pm on the “Credulous Bob Rides Again” thread which was meant for anyone involved in last night’s discussion of courage. Don’t know if you got a chance to see it, as I showed up (as usual) late in the thread.

I enjoyed the discussion of that topic last night, and feel that your experiences (and those of others) are important to hear about and learn from. No need to think that stuff is “old news.” We must learn from our history, if we want to keep having a history (unlike Bubble Boy’s menacing “what history?” attitude).

Contrast Vandehei’s demeanor and statements with those of Sy Hersh on Tweety.

Vandehei’s stuff made no sense, and broke no news. He came across like a snotty empty turtleneck.

On the other hand, Tweety commended Sy Hersh for speaking with one mind, or some such language, which is Tweety-speak for “you’re a plain spoken white hetero guy, and I like that.”

Tweety likes his white male hetero “regular guys,” because, naturally, the rest of us are not “real people, “ordinary” people, whatever.

But he is on to something. Hersh speaks in clear declarative sentences and he has something to say.

Vandehei spews muddled hypotheticals and speculations carefully seeded with trapdoors and caveats, because he has nothing to say. He has no news. As a reporter, he comes across like a hologram: he looks like a person, but I swear I could push my hand right through his image.

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/….._1129.html

These guys are so desperate they are trying to re-write Wiki…

What was it the guy said in Congress… “You guys are pathetic, just pathetic”

The Vandehei segment on Abrams is over. What a pathetic washout.

Abrams is no master’s level Plameologist, but he knows the basics of criminal law, since that’s his beat. And it seems to me he could clearly tell that Vandehei’s piece was crap, but was too polite to call him on it.

mmouse –

In my comment at 1:50pm (w/ a minor correction @ 1:55pm) on the thread “Money Can’t Buy Love” I tried, perhaps not so eloquently, to express what this community means for the quality of my life, and what a gift it is to know that some bit of what’s posted helps in some small way.

You’ve given me that gift once again. Thank you.

Abrams: Interesting that reporters are now being cited by defense teams. Reporters coming to the aid of defendants.

Guest: Prosecutor doing exactly the right thing. Good investigation.

Abrams: whem will Fitzy tip his hand on indictments?

Vandehei: Don’t know. But this is inconvenient for Rove, and Fitzy is sensitive to that. Predicts Rove matter should be wrapped up, one way or another, within a couple of weeks.

Me: Poor Karl. Nice that Jimmy V. is so sympathetic. Hey, we all need firneds. And if Fitzy is not done in two weeks? More victim spin for Karl, slowly roasting on the spit. Any chance they are setting up a narrative that says that if Fitzy is not done with Karl in a short time frame, then he is either on a grand inquisition, fishing until he finds some bullshit, targeting poor Karl? Nah, no chance they are setting up that kind of narrative!

VandeHei is a LOON! YUCK!

Too comical!

Abrams is trying to flesh out wtf could possibly help Rove in the V. Novak thing.

Guest: Did V. Novak say something to Luskin that Fitzy is after, and could it be exclupatory?

Vandehei: That’s possible.

Me: How about V. Novak tipping off Lusking that Fitzy knew about Cooer’s conversation? Oh, no one wants to imagine that.

This interview is already funny.

Abrams is challenging the notion that V. Novak can, through conversations with Luskin, exculpate Rove through some ocnvcersations suggesting Rove has a bad memory.

Vandehei is totally the drinking the Koolaid (”everything I am hearing is that. . .”) Rove’s 11th hour information before Fitzmas caused Fitzy not to charge Rove.

Now Abrams is bringing in deuling federal prosecutors. . .

Oh VandeHei is on Rovian spinning mode!

VandeHei is such a putz..How coy?

EPU…LMAO…Thanks for the clarification.

LOL Vandehei pimping his Viveca Novak to save Rove story on Dan Abrams.

Abrams: How will she clear Rove?

Vandehei: I don’t know.

Treason…Fitz has got ta get ‘em for treason and we will put a stake thru the heart of American fascism!! This is exactly why I don’t call people like Duke Cunningham heroes in ANY part a their lives.

Tomorrow, Bush will announce his strategy for Iraq:

Step 1: Learn to spell “strategy.”

Step 2: Find Iraq on a map.

Step 3: Blame the Democrats for not having a plan.

Oklahoma – They are all both; that is The Wingnut Way (TM).

Mrs. K8–this is way late (a dropped thread? stitch?) but your comments to me as an fdl wallflower have been–what?–I don’t have words. But I would say you ARE the larger world to readers/voyeurs of FDL. Thank you.

It’s dificult to figure out. Between Cheney, Rove, Libby, Rice, Rumsfeld and the rest, just who are the punkors and who are the punkees?

All of these bottom feeding creatures are at best totally devoid of morals. And in the world of non-perceptive reality they are criminals. These characters should, (hopefully), one day find themselves behind bars. Furthermore, Bush as the major punk should be sitting right along side his punky little friends in the slammer. For a long, long time. Getting punked, of course.

OT

Tweety is foaming at the mouth about clusterfuks speech tomm. “It;s the big one”…What the hell is he talking about??
PattyLou | 11.29.05 – 2:51 pm |

____________________

Tweety is referring to Groundchimp day, when Chimpy Preznit comes out of his hole (either the one in TX or the one in DC), and, if he sees his shadow or not, runs right back into his hole.

It always indicates a long, cold winter (or summer, fall or spring) for the American people.

I always found odd the argument that Valerie drove in and out of CIA headquarters regularly as if that would expose her. Do the wingnuts really think the CIA allows the Chinese, Iranians and Venezuelans to set up video camera platforms to scrutinize all coming into CIA Hdqtrs?

…Former CIA colleagues say that by revealing her identity, harm could be caused to the CIAÂ’s agents and operations.

“If a CIA agent is exposed, then everyone coming in contact with that agent is exposed,” says Jim Marcinkowski, a former CIA agent who trained with Plame at the top-secret Virginia facility known as “the Farm.”

“There is a possibility that there were other agents that would use that same kind of a cover. So they may have been using Brewster Jennings just like her,” said Marcinkowski, referring to the fictional firm the CIA set up as her cover that also came out when journalists, including Robert Novak, disclosed it.

long ago, on my site when people were trying to repeat the neo con claim that valery wasn’t under cover, I first informed them about Brewster Jennings and what they were doing and what was squandered when people were repeating the corporate media’s ridiculous claim that Valéry wasn’t under cover.

Marcinkowski also points out, “[Plame] is the wife of an ambassador, for example. Now, since this happenedÂ…theyÂ’ll know thereÂ’s a possibility that the wife of a U.S. ambassador is a CIA agent.”

I hadn’t even considered that angle as far as the loss of our future capability

…once a covert CIA operative, says people who say Plame wasnÂ’t in a sensitive position need to understand how intricate a cover story is, regardless of what an agent is working on. “Cover isÂ…for a clandestine officer, can be different things at different times. We change cover. We modify cover based on how we need it. But that cover is linked together,” she tells Bradley. “If you start to unravel one part of that, you can unravel the whole thing.”

Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J., a former intelligence analyst and member of the House Intelligence Committee, agrees. “I think any time the identity of a covert agent is released, there is some damage — and itÂ’s serious.” Holt says itÂ’s possible agents overseas could be arrested or even killed, but “if there were, and IÂ’d been briefed on it, I couldÂ’t talk about it,” he tells Bradley. He did say he has been assured the CIA was mitigating the effects of the leak.

the next part is sublime, and brought me to tears;

“They have taken the usual procedures to protect the damage from spreading”

Those procedures began the moment Valerie Plame learned her cover was blown. Upon finding out about the leak of her name, “she felt like she’d been hit in the stomach. It took her breath away,” said Wilson.

Then she methodically went to work, “making lists of what she had to do to ensure that her assets, her projects, her programs and her operations were protected.”

that part must have been especially emotional I’m sure…wondering which of her associates were at greatest risk, never knowing what would become of them.

This is soooooo upsetting. I am at a loss for words.

url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801172_pf.html

pretty good article/url

After reading the article, what a women Valery Wilson is, what a patriot…I wish I could thank her for her service…she wouldn’t let me do it though, she wasn’t in it for our thanks, she was in it for our country

I’m blowing that picture up and hanging it on my wall. outstanding.

fitz . . .

Question–will Valerie be able to speak freely now? I know she couldn’t while an employee of the agency.

Just looking for the up side, which in any case does not balance out all that has been done to Valerie.